International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

  1. 1 Monday, 2nd March 1998

    2 (10.00 am)

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, ladies and

    4 gentlemen.

    5 Are the interpreters ready? Good morning.

    6 I hope everyone had a nice weekend and we can begin our

    7 work; I think, Mr. Prosecutor, with a witness.

    8 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, your Honours. The next

    9 witness we wish to call is witness number 1 on your

    10 witness list. This witness has sought the use of

    11 a pseudonym for his name, which is "Witness F". He has

    12 also asked for the image of his face to not appear and

    13 for the image to be distorted. I make that application

    14 and I have discussed it with Mr. Mikulicic. I do not

    15 understand there to be any objection to the

    16 application.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic?

    18 Can the necessary measures be taken, please?

    19 Have they already been taken? Thank you. In that

    20 case, please have the witness brought in. We have to

    21 pull down the curtains.

    22 (The witness entered court)

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, sir. Can you

    24 hear me?

    25 A. Yes.

  2. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You are going to read the

    2 declaration that the Registrar is going to give to you,

    3 please.

    4 A. I solemnly declare that I will speak the

    5 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Please be seated and answer

    7 the questions that the Prosecutor is going to address

    8 to you, please.


    10 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

    11 Q. Good morning, sir.

    12 A. Good morning.

    13 Q. During the course of your evidence, you will

    14 be referred to by the name "Witness F". I would ask

    15 you that you not divulge your name or your current or

    16 past address during the course of your testimony.

    17 Would you, please, look at the sheet of paper

    18 that I am now going to show you and if your name

    19 appears on that paper, would you answer "yes" or "no",

    20 but do not say the name, just tell me "yes" or "no".

    21 Could it then be shown to Mr. Mikulicic?

    22 A. Yes, yes.

    23 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I tender that as

    24 the next Prosecution exhibit in order, under seal.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: What is the number,

  3. 1 Mr. Dubuisson?

    2 THE REGISTRAR: It is exhibit number 43.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Can we see, please?

    4 (Handed).

    5 MR. NIEMANN: Witness F, how old are you?

    6 A. Now?

    7 Q. Yes.

    8 A. I am 45.

    9 Q. I want to take you back, if I can, to mid to

    10 late January of 1993, and ask if you could tell us

    11 where you were at about that time and what happened,

    12 particularly about the 21st and 22nd January 1993. Can

    13 you recall that time?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Where were you at that time? Do not give me

    16 a specific address but you can name the town.

    17 A. I was in Busovaca.

    18 Q. What was happening in Busovaca around that

    19 time, around 21st and 22nd January? Can you describe

    20 the events that were occurring then?

    21 A. Yes. On the 19th/20th January of 1993, these

    22 were unbearable days for all of us. Movement was

    23 limited, the right to gather, in particular. Not more

    24 than two or three men could be seen together. If

    25 a fourth was there, we would immediately be forced to

  4. 1 separate in one way or another.

    2 In the evening of the 19th, as well as the

    3 20th and the night between the 20th and the 21st, these

    4 were among the worst nights because ugly things were

    5 happening; explosions, devices were planted on almost

    6 all shops, stores, held by Muslims and they were quite

    7 numerous.

    8 There were about 50 such shops in the centre

    9 of town, so that on the 19th, two or three explosions

    10 destroyed two cafes and, on 20th January, it was

    11 a relatively peaceful day. In the evening of the 20th,

    12 again things became nasty and this could be felt first

    13 by the cutting of telephone lines and we knew straight

    14 away that something was about to happen. The same

    15 applied to my own home.

    16 First my telephone was cut, about 7.00 pm in

    17 the evening on 20th January and then --

    18 Q. If I could just stop you there for a moment.

    19 I just want to ask you: these restrictive measures, you

    20 spoke of the fact that the right to gather was

    21 prohibited and that people were attacking premises,

    22 shop premises in particular. Who were these measures

    23 directed against?

    24 A. Against us, the Muslim inhabitants.

    25 Q. Who was directing the measures, who was

  5. 1 responsible for imposing these restrictions on the

    2 Muslim population?

    3 A. The HVO police, headed by Dario Kordic and

    4 the actual perpetrators, Anto Sliskovic.

    5 Q. And from your answer, you are, yourself,

    6 Muslim; is that right?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. What about the destruction of Muslim

    9 property, the shops, in Busovaca; do you know who was

    10 responsible for that, or not?

    11 A. Everyone knows that because not a single

    12 Muslim could move around freely, especially not in the

    13 evening. The only people to move around were HVO

    14 policemen and HVO fighters, combatants, so they were

    15 the only ones who could have done it, no-one else.

    16 Q. At this particular point in time -- that is

    17 20th January, around 20th January 1993 -- were you

    18 civilian or were you in the military, in terms of your

    19 occupation?

    20 A. Civilian.

    21 Q. Now, I think you said that your house, on the

    22 20th, the telephone was cut off, then you were going to

    23 go on to describe events following that and

    24 I interrupted you. Could you continue on, please?

    25 A. Yes. I expected or, at least I think

  6. 1 I expected, that something was to happen and my

    2 expectations came true. I was with my family, my wife

    3 and children in our living room. We were watching

    4 television. About 10.15 in the evening, I heard

    5 footsteps on the balcony of my house and the next

    6 moment a strong explosion was heard to the right of my

    7 house.

    8 A window face is there, a window about 120 by

    9 140 centimetres and it was totally shattered, the glass

    10 scattered on the living room floor. With my children

    11 and wife, I tried to escape, to go out through the back

    12 door of my house, because there is a door at the back,

    13 and that very moment, strong blows could be heard. The

    14 breaking of the front door and cries, "open, it is the

    15 HVO police".

    16 I asked, "what do you mean the HVO police?",

    17 the next answer came the same: "The HVO police". Fire

    18 broke out. They started shooting from the veranda

    19 through the living room, but I managed with my wife and

    20 children to escape through the back into the woods and

    21 to spend the night there.

    22 Throughout the night, until about 4.00 am,

    23 maybe even 4.30 in the morning, they were looting

    24 things, they drove off anything they thought could come

    25 in handy. When I say, "everything", they took away

  7. 1 everything, so that nothing remained, including my own

    2 passenger car, all the household appliances, virtually

    3 everything.

    4 The next day, when I went to the house after

    5 all, I could not find even some underwear for my

    6 children. Everything was taken away.

    7 Q. Did you see the people -- were you able to

    8 identify the people who were doing this looting?

    9 A. No. I just saw that they were wearing

    10 camouflage uniforms, and, according to their cries,

    11 that is that they were the HVO police, I could conclude

    12 who they were. According to what I saw from the dark,

    13 because after all I was only some 30 metres from the

    14 house, they switched on all the lights and I counted

    15 seven of them.

    16 Q. Now, after this had happened to you, what did

    17 you do then?

    18 A. This happened. Then about 8.00 in the

    19 morning, I went to the house. I checked, looking

    20 around for some things, my wife and I were looking for

    21 anything, either for the children or ourselves because,

    22 in fact, we had spent the whole night half dressed.

    23 This was the month of January, 20th to the 21st and it

    24 was cold, but we did not find anything. So I sent my

    25 wife and children in the direction of Kacuni and

  8. 1 I moved to my brother's house who lived in town. That

    2 is where I stayed for a couple of days.

    3 Q. Now, what was the next thing that happened

    4 after you had separated from your wife and you moved to

    5 your brother's house? What is the next significant

    6 event to happen after that?

    7 A. On 21st January, it was relatively peaceful.

    8 People behaved as if nothing had happened during the

    9 night, the same applied to the 22nd and the 23rd.

    10 Then, on the 24th, in the evening,

    11 a Saturday, again somewhere after 9.00 pm and until

    12 5.00 or rather 4.00 am, explosions were resounding so

    13 that that night my shop was blown up, among others. My

    14 free shop -- tax free shop. I could see that because

    15 it was not far from where I was staying. One can see

    16 the centre of town where I had a shop. Maybe an hour

    17 or hour and a half later, things became quiet again and

    18 I think somewhere around 6.00 in the morning, the

    19 siren -- the fire brigade siren could be heard

    20 announcing danger.

    21 The next moment, while the siren was still

    22 ringing, shooting started and whoever happened, by

    23 chance, to be in the street, he was hit either with

    24 a sniper rifle or an ordinary rifle. In any event, one

    25 could not move any more.

  9. 1 Q. Just going back for a moment, if I may,

    2 during that night, were you able to see your house from

    3 your brother's house, where you were staying?

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 house was on fire". Since only some 200 metres away

    9 there was small hill from which my house could be seen,

    10 the logical conclusion was that it was only my house

    11 that was burning and that was, in fact, the case.

    12 Q. I am sorry, I interpreted you again. You

    13 were talking now of the next day, 25th January, at

    14 6.00 am when you heard sirens and then there was

    15 a shooting with a sniper rifle at people who happened

    16 to be in the streets. Tell us what happened when these

    17 circumstances developed?

    18 A. This lasted from 6.00 am until 3.00 pm.

    19 There was constant rifle fire, sniper shots, shelling,

    20 only of this part of town. So that it was unbearable.

    21 One just could not stay there. People panicked.

    22 A couple were wounded, a couple were killed and

    23 virtually the entire population was swept by panic.

    24 This was only natural because the HVO soldiers were

    25 approaching from all sides and especially from the

  10. 1 upper part, which is a wooded area. They were getting

    2 closer and closer to this part, so that in front of

    3 them were already people who were fleeing towards the

    4 centre and the panic was immense, it was something

    5 quite horrifying.

    6 About 3.30, all of us were rounded up and

    7 upon our cries and pleas and the showing of white

    8 sheets and flags, begging them to stop shooting, that

    9 we were not resisting, that we would withdraw wherever

    10 they say, so that finally, they accepted this and when

    11 we reached the actual town square, there was some more

    12 shooting, as intimidation, and some mistreatment.

    13 There were, in my estimate, somewhere around 90 human

    14 beings, I can put it that way. Women and a few

    15 children were separated and returned home, whereas the

    16 rest of us, some 70 of us, were loaded on to buses,

    17 that is the proper word. The bus was already waiting

    18 and ready and it drove us to Kaonik, to the barracks of

    19 the former Yugoslav Peoples' Army.

    20 JUDGE VOHRAH: I am not clear which town he

    21 is talking about. Which town is this?

    22 MR. NIEMANN: Before I ask that question,

    23 might we call for redaction on page 9, line 5?

    24 The town that you were in where you were

    25 gathered together, driven to -- collected in the centre

  11. 1 of where you started your journey to Kaonik, what was

    2 that town?

    3 A. That was Busovaca.

    4 Q. Now, you said 60 or 70 people were loaded on

    5 to the bus; what was the sex of these people?

    6 A. All men.

    7 Q. What was their age group?

    8 A. Age group, 90 per cent we were between 25 and

    9 40 and the rest were maybe 55 to 60.

    10 Q. What was the youngest age of the men, that

    11 you could see?

    12 A. There were two or three boys of 14, 15 and 16

    13 years of age.

    14 Q. What was the ethnic background of the people

    15 who were put in this bus and taken to Kaonik?

    16 A. Only Muslims.

    17 Q. When you got to Kaonik -- I am sorry, who was

    18 it that took you to Kaonik? Who took you to Kaonik?

    19 A. I am not clear. Could you, please, clarify

    20 for me? Who was responsible? Dario Kordic was

    21 responsible for everything, without a doubt, but you

    22 probably think of who was driving the bus and who was

    23 the escorts?

    24 Q. Yes, that is right.

    25 A. The driver of the bus was called Zeljko

  12. 1 Vareskovic Bubreg and there was a soldier escorting the

    2 bus whom I personally did not know because at that time

    3 there were a lot of soldiers there whom I did not know

    4 and then there were a lot of those who I did know.

    5 They were wearing the HVO insignia and I knew them

    6 personally, but there were soldiers there who wore the

    7 HV insignia and the Runolist Brigade. They had

    8 separate accents, they were not locals, from Busovaca.

    9 I believe they were from Herzegovina.

    10 Q. The Runolist Brigade, do you know who they

    11 were?

    12 A. No, I did not know. I saw that for the first

    13 time on that occasion and I was only able to read this

    14 Runolist Brigade and it had this flower that looked

    15 like edelweiss and they spoke a different accent.

    16 MR. NIEMANN: Let the witness be shown

    17 Exhibit P17, please.

    18 Witness F, I would like you to look at the

    19 exhibit you are going to be shown. I would ask that it

    20 be displayed on the projection machine that is there

    21 beside you. I am wondering if you could tell me

    22 whether you could identify the objects shown on this

    23 exhibit when you see them. If you can identify them,

    24 whether you can explain to us what it is you are

    25 identifying. (Handed).

  13. 1 Perhaps deal with them by the numbers,

    2 number 1 and number 2. Tell us what number 1 is and

    3 what number 2 is, if you would be so kind?

    4 A. Number 1 means Croatian army and number 2

    5 means Croatian Defence Council. Number 1 is Croatian

    6 army. Those were obviously foreigners, that is people

    7 who were not from our region and those wearing the HVO

    8 insignia were all our local people from the Busovaca

    9 area.

    10 Q. Just to -- I think you have said this, but

    11 I will just get you to repeat it; did you see soldiers

    12 wearing both of these insignia on that particular day;

    13 namely, 25th January 1993, in Busovaca?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. When you arrived at the Kaonik camp, what

    16 happened then? Firstly, what time did you get there,

    17 then what occurred?

    18 A. Because this was about five kilometres away

    19 from Busovaca, it took us about 10 minutes to get

    20 there, which, in my opinion, happened around 4.00 in

    21 the afternoon. We were unloaded, we were taken to the

    22 hangar, which is almost at the far end of this complex,

    23 this compound of the former JNA barracks.

    24 We were all lined up against a wall which was

    25 about seven or eight metres long and 25 metres wide,

  14. 1 this hangar was.

    2 We arrived there and we found a group there,

    3 already staying there. So we covered about three

    4 walls, we were all made to face the wall.

    5 At that moment we heard that something was

    6 going on and we were ordered to turn around. When we

    7 turned around, in the middle of the hangar, a man was

    8 standing, a man whom I did not know, whom I had not

    9 seen before, and who literally said the following:

    10 "I am Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski. Do not fear. You will

    11 not miss a hair from your head". I am a bit of

    12 a joker, even when I am in a bad place, so I said:

    13 "Sir, I am aware of the fact that I will not miss

    14 a hair from my head since I do not have any, what about

    15 my head?". He just sort of made a sign and did not

    16 respond.

    17 We spent the entire night there. There was

    18 nothing there, there was just concrete floor. It was

    19 insufferably cold. At one point a few soldiers came in

    20 and they took out several young men. It was more to

    21 take away their valuables, whatever they had on them,

    22 jewellery or money. We spent that night in the hangar,

    23 without anything. It was only in the morning that they

    24 provided us with several pallets. Those were the

    25 loading pallets for loading merchandise.

  15. 1 So, a few people were lucky enough to be able

    2 to sit on it because there were not enough of those.

    3 We were also given a blanket per three or four

    4 persons.

    5 Q. Now, you said -- you spoke of the fact that

    6 this person came in and said he was Zlatko Aleksovski

    7 and spoke to you. When you said he made a sign, what

    8 did he do when you said that you knew nothing would

    9 happen to the hairs on your head? Can you just

    10 describe that for us?

    11 A. The gesture of waving off his head, meant,

    12 "may God help you", and in my view, and based on what

    13 happened later, that is what it meant.

    14 Q. The people that were in the hangar who were

    15 being lined up against the wall, did you know any of

    16 these people or did you know where they came from?

    17 A. We knew each other for the most part because

    18 about 80 per cent of us were from the downtown area and

    19 20 per cent were those who were brought from the

    20 surrounding villages or from the wider urban area.

    21 Q. You said that -- I think you said that apart

    22 from your group, that is the 60 or 70 that came by the

    23 bus, that when you arrived there, there was other

    24 people there as well. Did you know these other people

    25 or know of them, or know where they came from?

  16. 1 A. When we were brought there and when we

    2 entered the hangar, we knew that we were not the first

    3 ones there. Obviously I knew most of them, 99 per cent

    4 of the people I knew, and if I did not know them, they

    5 knew me, so we knew each other.

    6 Q. From your best recollection, are you able to

    7 say what their ethnic background was, these people that

    8 were there?

    9 A. They were all Muslims.

    10 Q. Were there any soldiers at the camp when you

    11 arrived there, or anyone dressed in military uniform?

    12 A. As far as I remember, there were only two or

    13 three young men who had parts of the camouflage

    14 uniform, either the trousers or the jackets, but there

    15 were just a few of them.

    16 Q. Were these, so far as you could ascertain,

    17 guards of the camp or were they soldiers?

    18 A. At that moment, they were all soldiers --

    19 a guard was a soldier too. He also had the insignia

    20 belonging to the HVO.

    21 Q. Was anything taken from you or any of the

    22 other prisoners that were there at that time?

    23 A. Nothing was taken away from me in the

    24 hangar. However, a bag full of money was taken away

    25 because they were entering in there without any

  17. 1 control. Any one of the soldiers could come in and

    2 would be able to search you, do whatever he wanted and

    3 so, in that manner, they took away quite a lot.

    4 Q. Now, after you had been there for a day or

    5 so, did you see anything happen to any of the prisoners

    6 that were kept in the hangar?

    7 A. All these groups of soldiers who would come

    8 in, in order to either get the money or something, they

    9 would take out two or three men and they would come

    10 back with little blue marks or something, so they were

    11 roughed up a little bit but that was nothing in

    12 comparison to what was to happen later.

    13 Q. In addition to that, did you ever see a group

    14 of prisoners taken out of the room by soldiers?

    15 A. On the 26th in the morning, after that night

    16 spent in the hangar, one of the guards came with

    17 a piece of paper on which there were 15 names. He

    18 called out these 15 names and, as he was calling them

    19 out, we had to come to step out. Then outside in front

    20 of the hangar, ahead of this plateau, we were tied up,

    21 one tied up to another with a rope. I was number 14 in

    22 that line.

    23 However, fortunately for me, they must have

    24 used -- they used up the rope, so myself and another

    25 person, who was a relative of mine, remained untied.

  18. 1 The 13 men were taken away to be human

    2 shields because they told us that this they were going

    3 to do immediately. In fact, Zoran Pusic said this to

    4 us. He was in charge there. The person who was tying

    5 people up was Zeljko, called Bubreg, and another man

    6 whom I did not know.

    7 Q. I will hand you a piece of paper and I want

    8 you to write a name on it, if you would be so kind, for

    9 me. (Handed).

    10 Was one of the persons taken away to be used

    11 as a human shield, in fact, your brother? Once you

    12 have written that down, perhaps you could show it to

    13 me. (Handed).

    14 That person is your brother, the person whose

    15 name appears here?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 MR. NIEMANN: Perhaps that could be shown to

    18 Mr. Mikulicic, if you would. (Handed). I tender that

    19 under seal, your Honours, if you please.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: What is the registration

    21 number?

    22 THE REGISTRAR: It is exhibit number 44.

    23 MR. NIEMANN: How do you know that these 13

    24 men were used as human shields?

    25 A. Yes.

  19. 1 Q. How is it that you knew that they were used

    2 as human shields?

    3 A. As they were being tied up, Pusic, who was

    4 a policeman, said: "You are going to be human shield in

    5 the village of Strane", so that we knew what was going

    6 to happen. Upon their return, of course, I talked to

    7 my brother and to the rest of them, so they described

    8 how it was, where they were and the fact that they were

    9 used as a human shield.

    10 Q. What did your brother tell you?

    11 A. What did he tell me? That it was terrible.

    12 That they took them down below the village; that the

    13 soldiers stood behind them, about 20 metres behind

    14 them, with their weapons ready and they forced them to

    15 walk towards the village in a parallel line.

    16 Q. Did your brother tell you who it was that

    17 forced them to do this?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Who did he say did it?

    20 A. This man Pusic took them there and below the

    21 village the other soldiers waited and he recognised his

    22 best man, the person who was his best man. When he

    23 looked at him, this man turned his head away. I can

    24 say who this person was.

    25 Q. Do not use his name. Now, after spending

  20. 1 some time in the warehouse, did you stay there all the

    2 time or were you moved somewhere else in the camp?

    3 A. No, we spent that day there. Then they used

    4 them as human shields one more time, so we spent the

    5 day and the night there, then the next morning they

    6 were used as human shields one more time.

    7 The same 15 names were called out again

    8 because these were all men from downtown Busovaca and

    9 they were taken to the village of Merdani.

    10 Again, I was not there because, again, I was

    11 number 14 and only the 13 were taken -- as the 13 were

    12 being tied up, and I was waiting to be tied up too,

    13 Zeljko Vareskovic, who I knew very well, he said: "It

    14 is all right, no more are needed." They agreed to that

    15 so that only 13 men were taken to Strane.

    16 My brother said this and we actually knew

    17 right away -- I mean, we knew this independently. They

    18 spent 24 hours there. From their stories it was worse

    19 than the first time around. They took them to the rail

    20 road bridge where the -- it was a disused rail road

    21 bridge. The bridge was still there, but it was not

    22 used.

    23 They brought them there. They were tied up.

    24 They made them lean over the railing. They put barrels

    25 of their guns to their heads and they told them that if

  21. 1 they did not obey, they that would all be shot.

    2 Q. Now, after you spent some time in the hangar,

    3 were you then moved somewhere else in the camp?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. To where were you moved?

    6 A. When they returned, this group which went out

    7 for the second time. I think it was in the evening,

    8 when they moved us to the cells, to the prison. This

    9 was already a prepared structure. This much closer to

    10 the entrance to the barracks. There were two buildings

    11 there, so in one of them there were cells and that is

    12 where we were put. These cells measured three by

    13 three, that was all. We were 25 to 30 in there.

    14 They had half a metre of free space so that

    15 the doors could open and the rest was sort of raised by

    16 about half a metre by some boards, so that we could lie

    17 down. Imagine 25 to 30 people in a cell which measured

    18 three by three.

    19 These were sort of classic cells with iron

    20 doors, classic prison cells with small openings.

    21 Q. When this 25 to 30 people who were crammed

    22 into the one cell, where did they sleep, what provision

    23 was made for their sleeping?

    24 A. There were only a few blankets in these

    25 cells, on those boards, so you could not sleep. If

  22. 1 five or ten people would sleep, the rest would sit.

    2 Those of us who were beaten up, we could not sleep, so

    3 we sat around and we would let these people who had

    4 already started to do forced labour to get some rest,

    5 and some of them had their ribs broken too.

    6 Q. Now, the first night you were in the prison,

    7 did anything happen to you personally?

    8 A. I experienced different things from the very

    9 moment I got in there. Let us say right after dark,

    10 maybe half an hour later, I would be brought out in the

    11 hallway and I would be beaten up. This would happen

    12 every night.

    13 Q. Who brought you out into the hallway, that

    14 you can remember?

    15 A. I was brought out mostly by one person into

    16 this hallway. He must have received some

    17 instructions. He had my description because he knew

    18 exactly who I was. So he would simply bring me out of

    19 the cell. The cell door would not even close and

    20 I would already being beaten, but I was kicking and

    21 beating me and I would get bloody.

    22 At one point I had a wedding ring on my hand

    23 and he tried to take it off. I somehow managed to do

    24 it myself. It did not change anything, he kept coming

    25 back every night and beating me. Unfortunately, with

  23. 1 the permission of the guards who stood by silently.

    2 Q. What did he beat you with?

    3 A. For the most part, he beat me with his hands

    4 and kicked me. He did not use any other instruments,

    5 kicked and beat me with his hands. He was larger than

    6 I am, he was stronger than I am. He was strong and so

    7 he was able to beat me up badly.

    8 Q. When he was kicking you, what position were

    9 you in? Were you standing or lying?

    10 A. At first, of course, I was standing, but

    11 after the first, second blow, I was, for the most part

    12 on the floor.

    13 Q. Did you subsequently come to find out what

    14 his name was?

    15 A. Yes. Actually I do not know his name. But

    16 I do know that his surname was Marelja, that he came

    17 from Herzegovina. I could tell by his accent that he

    18 came from the region of Herzegovina.

    19 Q. About how old was this man, approximately?

    20 A. I think he was about 25 to 30 years old. He

    21 was 180 or 185 centimetres tall. He weighed about 100

    22 kilogrammes. He was very strong. He wore a beret and

    23 he limped in one leg.

    24 Q. What was the colour of his hair, do you

    25 remember?

  24. 1 A. I think he was blond.

    2 Q. How often did he beat you?

    3 A. Every night. Only two nights when I was

    4 trench digging, he did not. I thought myself lucky.

    5 Q. Where, precisely, did these beatings take

    6 place?

    7 A. Immediately in front of the cell, right

    8 there, just outside the door of the cell.

    9 Q. Apart from you, was anyone else there at any

    10 stage, that you can remember?

    11 A. The guards were a couple of metres away, but

    12 they did not react at all.

    13 Q. You mentioned that, apart from two occasions,

    14 you were beaten every night. On those two occasions

    15 you were taken trench digging. Can you describe the

    16 circumstances of how it was you came to be taken for

    17 trench digging?

    18 A. I can, but there is something else that

    19 happened.

    20 Q. Perhaps you should tell us that, please.

    21 A. The third day after I was detained in the

    22 cell, I was selected and another guy and we were taken

    23 to the building at the entrance itself, the entrance to

    24 the camp or the barracks, which had one storey, and we

    25 were taken for some sort of informative interview, at

  25. 1 least that is what we were told. A young soldier, one

    2 could almost call him a child, one could not really

    3 call him a serious soldier, he took us to this entrance

    4 to the camp. We were immediately shut up in a cell,

    5 which had rails and door and window, there were no

    6 glass panes, just the railing.

    7 The man was taken away. I stayed behind.

    8 Sitting on a military bed, 10 or 15 minutes later, this

    9 young man was brought back. In the meantime some

    10 strange things were happening, or rather they could not

    11 be called strange, they were normal.

    12 Fighters would come by and as 90 per cent of

    13 them knew me, they would call out: "So what, you got

    14 the wrong nation. No, you are not the wrung nation,

    15 you are unfortunately just in the form of humans".

    16 15 minutes later this young man was brought

    17 back after being beaten up, then I was taken. I was

    18 taken upstairs and there is a room, a somewhat larger

    19 room, and in the middle of the room was a table, a ping

    20 pong table.

    21 When I entered through the door, there were

    22 two chairs at this table, one on each side, and a third

    23 on the third side. Three guys were standing against

    24 three windows with their backs stand -- they were

    25 looking outwards so I could not see who they were. At

  26. 1 the table two men were sitting, two fighters, soldiers

    2 whom I knew personally very well.

    3 In fact, I was glad to see them. However,

    4 I would shortly be disappointed. They offered me

    5 cigarettes and coffee and I accepted and then some sort

    6 of a conversation started. But let me add that on this

    7 table there were six or seven various types of stakes,

    8 wooden, rubber, steel, even police truncheons. I was

    9 on a chair at one end of the table and after this

    10 cigarette and that coffee, the questioning started.

    11 Q. Just -- the two people that you recognised,

    12 do you remember their names?

    13 A. Of course. I said that I was glad to see

    14 them, because we were many times together in the cafe

    15 next to my shop, even in my shop we had many a cup of

    16 coffee together. One of them is Katava Zeljko, an

    17 electrician by trade. The other is Zarko Petrovic,

    18 known as Tadija.

    19 Q. What was their nationality or ethnic group?

    20 A. Croats.

    21 Q. How were they dressed?

    22 A. In camouflage uniforms with the HVO

    23 insignia.

    24 Q. You say they started to ask you some

    25 questions. What questions were they asking you? What

  27. 1 did they ask you?

    2 A. One of the first questions asked was: why

    3 I had been in the house of my brother. I really did

    4 not have an answer to this question, but anyway,

    5 whatever I would have said, it would not have made any

    6 difference. They asked me questions about all kinds of

    7 things, even about certain Croats, who would socialise

    8 with us.

    9 After each question, after each answer, the

    10 three men who were standing behind my back would hit at

    11 me with whatever they could get hold of. Perhaps the

    12 easiest to bear were their kicks with their boots.

    13 This lasted three and a half hours.

    14 There was some terrible moments. At one

    15 point in time Marelja walked in. The man who had beat

    16 me every night. He hit me with his fist in the face,

    17 so he fractured my jaw, upon which I think it was

    18 Tadija, or actually Petrovic, jumped up and swore at

    19 him and said: "I told you, not the head".

    20 Q. Now, did -- apart from these batons and

    21 sticks and things you described, did anyone have any

    22 other weapons which they threatened you with?

    23 A. Perhaps after about three hours of this

    24 torture, one of these men pushed my head back and put

    25 a knife against my throat. I tried to press my neck

  28. 1 against that knife. I did not care any more. I was at

    2 the end of my tether, but I did not succeed because

    3 again the reaction was: "I told you, not the head",

    4 this was said by Petrovic.

    5 Q. Did you try to thrust yourself upon the

    6 knife?

    7 A. Yes. But he was holding me so tightly that

    8 I did not manage.

    9 Q. After you had been beaten for approximately

    10 three hours in this place, what happened to you then?

    11 A. After that, they took me back to the cell,

    12 the same cell which had only iron rods as walls.

    13 I spent about half an hour there. It was very cold.

    14 I think I could not sit, I was simply jumping up and

    15 down from the cold.

    16 Then I was taken back to the cell, but

    17 a separate cell, number 16.

    18 Q. When you say taken back to the cell, this is

    19 the cell block where you were taken out of originally?

    20 A. Yes, exactly.

    21 MR. NIEMANN: Just stopping there for

    22 a moment, would you look, please, at the plan that --

    23 the overhead photograph that I will now show you?

    24 Your Honours, this is the same photograph

    25 that has been tendered in a number of occasions.

  29. 1 I will make this one a new exhibit.

    2 I will ask the witness if you would for me,

    3 please, Witness F, to mark certain places for me on the

    4 photograph. (Handed).

    5 There is a copy for your Honours and one for

    6 the Defence.

    7 Witness F, I would like to put this on the

    8 overhead projector. You will need to actually mark the

    9 exhibit on the overhead projector because it will not

    10 appear if you just point to the screen. I want to take

    11 you back to start with, if I can. You should have in

    12 your hand a pen, a felt pen, which I will ask the usher

    13 to kindly provide you with.

    14 A. I have it.

    15 Q. Okay. Now, there are a number of places

    16 I would like you to mark for me. Firstly, when you

    17 said you arrived at the camp, that is when you arrived

    18 from Busovaca on 25th January, you were placed in

    19 a hangar in the camp. Are you able to point to that

    20 place, as best you can recall? I would ask you to

    21 write the number "1" at that spot, if you are able to

    22 locate the place? Can you point to it for us?

    23 A. (Indicating on photograph).

    24 Q. Perhaps put a circle around that hangar.

    25 Thank you.

  30. 1 A. (Witness marked map).

    2 Q. You then said that subsequently you were

    3 taken to proper cells, proper prison cells where you

    4 were beaten, just about on every night. Could you draw

    5 a circle around that particular building and mark it

    6 with the number "2"?

    7 A. (Witness marked map).

    8 Q. You have now just spoken of an incident where

    9 you were taken to another building, where you were

    10 taken upstairs, with the ping pong table, and beaten

    11 for a period of approximately three hours. Would you

    12 mark that place with a circle and the number "3"?

    13 A. (Witness marked map).

    14 MR. NIEMANN: If you just pull the photograph

    15 down a little bit so we can see it on the screen.

    16 Thank you very much.

    17 I tender that, your Honours, as the next

    18 Prosecution number in order.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: It is exhibit number 45.

    20 MR. NIEMANN: Now, Witness F, I would like you

    21 to look at a photograph, if I could, now, please.

    22 Perhaps that photograph could be numbered the next

    23 Prosecution number in order.

    24 THE REGISTRAR: This is exhibit number 46.

    25 MR. NIEMANN: Could that be placed on the

  31. 1 overhead projector?

    2 Witness F, looking at the photograph,

    3 obviously of a building, which is now shown to you, do

    4 you recognise the photograph of that building, what it

    5 is?

    6 A. I do, of course. It is the building I was

    7 taken to. This is the building, the first that you

    8 come across as you enter the camp, the only one with an

    9 upstairs floor, and where the torture room, one could

    10 call it, was, the room with the table tennis table in

    11 it.

    12 Q. This was the room you were beaten in for

    13 three hours and you just marked on the plan as

    14 number 3; is that right?

    15 A. Yes, yes.

    16 MR. NIEMANN: Now, just looking at that

    17 particular photograph, do you recall where it was in

    18 the building that you were taken? Perhaps you might

    19 point to it with a pointer that is there on the table

    20 in front of you. You need to point on the screen, are

    21 you able to point to the room or the building where you

    22 are taken to.

    23 For the purposes of the record, the witness

    24 is pointing to the top storey of the building on the

    25 left-hand side of the building as you look at the

  32. 1 photograph, where three windows appear on the top

    2 floor.

    3 I tender that exhibit, your Honours, please.

    4 MR. MIKULICIC: I am sorry for interrupting,

    5 could I have the photograph please, also?

    6 MR. NIEMANN: I have a copy here. I am

    7 sorry. (Handed).

    8 What was the next thing to happen to you in

    9 the Kaonik camp after you were taken back to your cell,

    10 after this beating that lasted for three hours?

    11 A. I was taken back to a solitary cell where

    12 I spent a couple of hours, after which I was moved back

    13 to the cell in which I was originally. I spent the

    14 night there in a sitting position because I could not

    15 lean on anything, not to mention being able to sleep.

    16 So the first day was relatively peaceful.

    17 However, the next evening, about 8.00 pm, I was called

    18 out to join a group going for trench digging. As it

    19 was dark, it was very dark, because after all this was

    20 winter time and it was 8.00 in the evening as we walked

    21 out in front of the building where two lines of

    22 soldiers, a gauntlet, on either side of the path we had

    23 to go between them and as soon as we walked in, they

    24 all got their weapons, we had to bend down our heads.

    25 No-one was allowed to utter a word.

  33. 1 In that way, we were taken towards Gavrine

    2 Kuce, or actually beyond Gavrine Kuce, near Putis, to

    3 dig trenches and we spent the whole night digging, and

    4 the next day until about noon.

    5 Q. Now, do you recall who called you out? Who

    6 called you out of your cell?

    7 A. A guard called our names out. The guard

    8 called Marko Krilic.

    9 Q. Was this a regular guard at the camp who was

    10 there often or was it somebody that you had not seen or

    11 known before?

    12 A. In that period of time, he was a regular

    13 guard. They had their shift and he would come to take

    14 his shift every other night. He was a regular guard

    15 there.

    16 Q. Now, the soldiers that were outside that you

    17 were to get their rifles and run through, were they

    18 regular guards of the camp or were they soldiers who

    19 came into the camp, as best you can ascertain?

    20 A. They were soldiers who came there. They were

    21 not regular guards.

    22 Q. When you were taken trench digging, were you

    23 guarded when you were doing the trench digging?

    24 A. Of course. Two or three of us digging, there

    25 were two guards who were five to ten metres away from

  34. 1 us.

    2 Q. Were these, as best you could ascertain,

    3 guards that had come from the prison or were they

    4 soldiers that were engaged in active duty?

    5 A. They were not guards, they were soldiers.

    6 Q. Were they dressed in the full military

    7 uniform of the HVO?

    8 A. Under full combat gear. They even had

    9 helmets on their head and HVO insignia.

    10 Q. When you were taken trench digging, did you

    11 ever hear rifle fire or fighting going on nearby where

    12 you were trench digging?

    13 A. There was no fighting at all, but near us

    14 a group of some 15 soldiers went by. They went to the

    15 road leading to Putis, they set fire to 10 to 15

    16 houses. There were a few shots then, but this had no

    17 effect on us. We were not sheltered in any way, we

    18 just had to go on digging. So it had no effect whether

    19 anyone was shooting or not. This lasted for about 15

    20 minutes. A couple of houses went up in flames. These

    21 same soldiers went by again and we spent the rest of

    22 the night digging.

    23 Q. Did you see whether or not the selection of

    24 people to go trench digging, did that appear to be

    25 organised systematically or was it just random, that

  35. 1 you were able to ascertain?

    2 A. Of course, of course. Everything was

    3 organised, to the last detail. Everything was done

    4 according to lists that were prepared in advance. The

    5 guards simply were given this piece of paper with the

    6 names on it of between 15 and 30, depending on the

    7 needs. The groups were not larger than 30. Then they

    8 would call out the names and that is the way it

    9 worked.

    10 Q. Now, I think you said that you went trench

    11 digging on two occasions?

    12 A. Yes. The first time in the area between

    13 Gavrine Kuce and Putis. Maybe we were lucky because

    14 the guards were from Vitez, so that they did not

    15 mistreat us. They even gave us water and something to

    16 eat, perhaps the same food they had, so that the night

    17 passed in digging and no mistreatment.

    18 However, I was sent specially to Kula, which

    19 was already infamous because terrible things were

    20 happening there and whoever came back was beaten up,

    21 had broken bones and things and some individuals who

    22 had been digging there said, even my brother said that

    23 they were looking for me. And, indeed, they did send

    24 me to Kula.

    25 Q. Who was looking for you, as best you could

  36. 1 ascertain from what your brother had told you? Who was

    2 it that was looking for you?

    3 A. The guards who were there at Kula, they were

    4 looking for me because they had a piece of paper with

    5 my name on it, and they asked every group: "Who is so

    6 and so?"

    7 Q. Did you recognise any of these guards?

    8 A. No. Among those guards I did not know

    9 anyone. When I got there, that very moment I was

    10 called out, separated and ordered to dig.

    11 MR. NIEMANN: This is going to be a long

    12 incident, your Honour, and I notice that it is 11.30.

    13 Rather than have the witness start halfway through only

    14 to interrupt him, may we break at this moment? If your

    15 Honours wish to take a break, I assumed you did.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: We are going to have

    17 a 20-minute break, which means until 11.50.

    18 (11.30 am)

    19 (A short break)

    20 (11.50 am)

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Prosecutor, please

    22 continue.

    23 MR. NIEMANN: Witness F, you were about to

    24 describe to us the circumstances surrounding an

    25 incident where you were taken out to do trench digging

  37. 1 on a second occasion, to a place called Kula. I am

    2 wondering if you would pick up that incident and tell

    3 us what happened to you when you were taken out to this

    4 place.

    5 A. Yes. We were taken out of our cells, loaded

    6 on to a truck and driven to Kula.

    7 As we got off the truck, we had to go in

    8 a single file, with our heads bowed for about

    9 a kilometre or two, where we were met by guards who

    10 stopped us and one of the guards, whom I did not know,

    11 read out my name.

    12 He had a piece of paper with my name on it

    13 and he told me to move out of line, which I did. He

    14 took me, just me, while the others stayed behind, and

    15 he took me to a very big oak tree, where there are lots

    16 of such trees, or rather a beech tree, about 60 to 70

    17 centimetres in diameter. He ordered me to dig five

    18 centimetres from the tree trunk. This I found strange,

    19 that somebody should order me to dig there because

    20 normally you could not dig there anyway, but they were

    21 not interested in that, so I started digging, for about

    22 10 minutes only, when one of those guards came for me

    23 again and took me 10 to 20 metres away from the group

    24 which had joined us in the meantime and, in this part

    25 there were some oak trees which are not very high but

  38. 1 they have very thick trunks.

    2 He placed me behind this oak tree and ordered

    3 me to take off all my clothes. To my misfortune I had

    4 a watch on my hand, which I had simply forgotten to

    5 hide in the cell. Because we knew what was happening

    6 up there, so we had tried to conceal some things in our

    7 cells and I had forgotten to do that. This was the

    8 first thing he took from me.

    9 He ordered me to take off all my clothes. As

    10 I was rather well dressed for prison conditions, I had

    11 shoes on me, trousers, woollen trousers, what we called

    12 a McCleod sheepskin jacket, which they had not taken

    13 away from me throughout that time until then.

    14 Why, I do not know, because out of all the prisoners

    15 that there were, not one left with his own property,

    16 with his own clothes, not to mention jackets,

    17 windbreakers, trousers, shoes, all this was taken

    18 away.

    19 Anyway, he told me to undress and all I had

    20 left on was a slip. He took my jacket, my trousers, he

    21 searched all the pockets and as he did not find

    22 anything, he started becoming angry.

    23 He had in his hand a pickaxe handle which is

    24 quite thick and quite large, maybe one metre 20 long

    25 and five, six, seven centimetres in diameter. At one

  39. 1 end, the other it can be up to eight centimetres wide.

    2 He ordered me to sing. I asked him, "for

    3 heavens sake, what do you want me to sing?". He said

    4 literally what I should sing: "I am", by name so and

    5 so, "a Mujehedin is fucking the Ustasha's mother".

    6 I found this difficult to do and since this

    7 guard was addressed as Nedeljkovic, so my conclusion

    8 was that he was Serb by nationality and the Nedeljkovic

    9 family, as far as I know, were from Dusina. I found it

    10 even more difficult to understand why he was forcing me

    11 to sing this.

    12 However, after his first blow, I did start to

    13 sing but very quietly, very softly. He said: "I told

    14 you loudly, so that it can ring in everyone's ears".

    15 I said that that was out of the question, upon which he

    16 hit me with all his might with that handle in the legs,

    17 so that for a moment I thought that my legs were gone.

    18 Again, after that blow, I had to sing and

    19 I sang rather more loudly. I suppose he was

    20 satisfied. His aim was for the others to hear that

    21 I was singing this, so that three of them within

    22 a minute or so would come up to me and start to hit me

    23 with whatever they had because I was cursing the

    24 Ustasha mother. Of course, this was hard to endure,

    25 but one can endure all kinds of things.

  40. 1 Then they took me back to dig.

    2 Q. I want to stop you for a moment. The person

    3 who beat you with the handle, you said you thought he

    4 may have been a Serb because of his name. What was he

    5 dressed in? How was he dressed? Can you describe --

    6 A. Camouflage. It was a camouflage uniform. He

    7 was a short man, maybe 160, 165 tall. He was dark

    8 haired.

    9 Q. Did he have any insignia on the uniform?

    10 A. I think he had no insignia.

    11 Q. Did you understand him to be a Serb soldier

    12 with the HVO or do you have some other explanation to

    13 why he may have been there?

    14 A. All the Serbs, persons of Serb ethnic

    15 background who remained in that area, had already been

    16 incorporated into the HVO units.

    17 Q. So you understood him to be part of HVO?

    18 A. That is correct.

    19 Q. Now, the other soldiers that came up you and

    20 beat you also, did you understand them to be part of

    21 HVO or could you give them some other description?

    22 A. Not that they were considered to be part of

    23 the HVO but they really indeed were part of the HVO.

    24 Q. Why is it that you say that?

    25 A. Because they had the HVO insignia.

  41. 1 Q. Okay. Now, what happened to you after this

    2 beating? What happened then?

    3 A. I was taken back to dig trenches and

    4 I continued to dig. In fact, it was not real digging

    5 because it was impossible to dig in that place because

    6 of this very big thick routes, but I had to and

    7 I continued to do it the whole day. It was a very,

    8 very long day.

    9 There would be two or three minutes of rest,

    10 five minutes of beating and this continued throughout

    11 the day. Around 12.00 the three of them who kept

    12 coming every five to ten minutes, they would come by

    13 and they would hit me with something, with their boots,

    14 with their hands, with the shovels. For instance, if

    15 I bent to hit the ground, the soil with this pickaxe,

    16 he would come behind me and hit me.

    17 Then around 12.00, these three finally

    18 arrived together and sat near me. I had dug up about

    19 maybe 50 centimetres.

    20 Q. Who are these three?

    21 A. They were the three soldiers who had the

    22 insignia, whom I did not know but they kept beating me

    23 all day long.

    24 Q. The HVO insignia?

    25 A. Correct.

  42. 1 Q. What happened?

    2 A. One of the three took a piece of newspaper

    3 and he rolled it up into some kind of a torch and set

    4 it -- and set it aflame and the other one came behind

    5 me and he started burning off my beard, which was about

    6 two or three centimetres long at that time, and then he

    7 did it on both sides.

    8 There was this crackling sound. It was as if

    9 you put water into hot oil, that is the noise that it

    10 was making. This went on for about 10 or 15 minutes,

    11 this singeing and their aim was to burn off my beard

    12 because, for some reason, it bothered them a lot.

    13 Out of this 30 men who were there with me,

    14 nobody dared say anything. One of them was about 10

    15 metres from me and I heard him clearly, he said: "Do

    16 not come close to him, because he is not going to leave

    17 here alive".

    18 After this burning, maybe half an hour

    19 passed, I continued to dig. They did not give me any

    20 water. I asked for some, but it would have been better

    21 had I not because I got more blows over my back for

    22 it. Two of them then came back and they took off my

    23 hat from me, like this. (Indicating). I am

    24 demonstrating how they did it.

    25 They put it on a stick, on a piece of wood

  43. 1 that was maybe 50/60 centimetres long and they set it

    2 on fire.

    3 Q. What sort of hat was it?

    4 A. It was a beret like this. (Indicating).

    5 Q. What was it made of?

    6 A. I think it is a kind of a felt, like standard

    7 berets. I am not an expert to tell you, but you can

    8 see it. This is what it was made of. So, it cannot

    9 burn this thing, it just turns into carbon and they

    10 kept it on the stick and when they managed to singe

    11 about 70 per cent of it, they gave it back to me, to my

    12 hands, and they ordered me to eat it.

    13 I never tasted anything as ugly as this.

    14 I was already very fatigued because of all the work,

    15 I had not had any water, but I had to eat this hat.

    16 I tried to get to a piece that was not singed, that was

    17 not burned, but I could not, it was hard. So I had to

    18 keep chewing. If I stalled or if I tried to get out of

    19 it, I would get a blow. I would get a kick or I would

    20 be hit by a handle of wood, so I had to do it. So,

    21 I chewed it and I ate, I think, 70 to 80 per cent of

    22 it.

    23 Q. How long did it take you to eat that much of

    24 the hat?

    25 A. No longer than one hour. Because they kept

  44. 1 hurrying me, so it went on for one hour, in my

    2 estimate.

    3 Q. After you had been forced to do this, what

    4 happened then?

    5 A. They left. Then five minutes later, they

    6 again came back, I repeat, they again came back because

    7 I never was left alone for more than five minutes

    8 during that day, somebody would come back.

    9 Then on that occasion they had me take off my

    10 shoes. They gave me some sneakers which had no soles

    11 any more. I do not know where they took the shoes,

    12 they took them with them. I received several blows

    13 with one of the handles and one of them said: "You are

    14 still in luck, but the night is coming, Mr.. Hosovac is

    15 coming and he will finish you off."

    16 We knew, myself and the others who used to

    17 work at Kula, we knew about this man, we knew that he

    18 was dangerous, and the night will come, Hosovac will

    19 come. He came over to me and said: "Take your shovel

    20 and take the pickaxe"; I said: "Why, for God's sake?".

    21 He said: "We need to fix something up there.

    22 Q. How was he dressed, this person?

    23 A. A black uniform with a black beret and a HOS

    24 insignia on his sleeve.

    25 Q. This was different from what you have

  45. 1 described as worn by the ordinary HVO soldiers; is that

    2 right?

    3 A. (Answer not translated).

    4 Q. I do not know whether we got an answer to

    5 that question. I will ask the question again: this

    6 uniform was different from the uniform you described as

    7 being worn by the ordinary HVO soldiers; is that right?

    8 A. That is correct. It was completely black

    9 with black beret and a separate insignia.

    10 MR. NIEMANN: I will ask you to look at this

    11 document I will now show you. If you recognise the

    12 document, can you describe what it is, please?

    13 Might it be placed on the overhead

    14 projector? (Handed).

    15 We will give it its number and then show it

    16 to Mr. Mikulicic, please.

    17 THE REGISTRAR: This is the exhibit number

    18 46.

    19 MR. NIEMANN: Just looking at this document as

    20 it appears on your screen, Witness F, do you recognise

    21 it?

    22 A. Of course. That is the insignia that this

    23 man wore on his sleeve.

    24 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that, if your Honours

    25 please. I do not have a copy for your Honours at the

  46. 1 moment but we will make one available in due course, to

    2 your Honours and to Mr. Mikulicic.

    3 Now, the gentleman dressed in the black

    4 uniform with this insignia, ordered you to gather your

    5 digging equipment and follow him, did he?

    6 A. He ordered me to take the pickaxe and the

    7 shovel and follow him. I asked him why. He said: "We

    8 are going up there to fix something, something was not

    9 done right". So he took me about 50 to 60 metres away

    10 from that clearing where we had worked towards the

    11 forest and when I entered -- when we entered the

    12 forest, just a couple of metres, he said, "stop". He

    13 said, "start digging". I said: "what am I supposed to

    14 be digging", because there was nothing there, there

    15 were no trenches, no fox holes, nothing. He said this:

    16 "you are not a fool, you know how to dig a hole and

    17 the hole is for you".

    18 Q. What did you understand this to mean, when he

    19 said, "the hole is for you"?

    20 A. That it was the end, that he was going to

    21 kill me, that there was no way out, that the end was

    22 there. But at that moment, I also started thinking he

    23 and I were there alone. I thought maybe I could

    24 escape.

    25 Q. Did you understand the hole to be your grave?

  47. 1 A. Correct. That is exactly it. It could not

    2 have had any other meaning.

    3 Q. What happened then?

    4 A. Since I had a pretty good shovel, not too

    5 big, not too small, I saw that the end was there, so

    6 I thought to hit him with it and to run and see if

    7 I make it. However, he was a well-trained soldier,

    8 obviously, and he did not come anywhere close to me, so

    9 I started digging, but I started delaying it because if

    10 this was the last thing that I did, I was going to take

    11 my time.

    12 At one point, he approached me from the

    13 left-hand side and he took me by the lapel and he said:

    14 "Where is the money? Where is the gold?". I simply

    15 told him, "there is no money, there is no gold.

    16 Whatever I had was taken away. Whatever was left

    17 behind was burned. There is nothing left".

    18 He obviously had full information about my

    19 wealth and how much money I had, so when I told him

    20 that I did not have the money or gold, he tried -- in

    21 fact, he showed with his hand that he was about to hit

    22 me and he had a black glove with cut-off fingers and

    23 studs, so that a blow would hurt even more, so he made

    24 a fist and I said: "Man, what kind of a person are

    25 you?". He said: "Why?"; "if you want to hit me then

  48. 1 do, but I think we can come to an agreement". To which

    2 he responded, and he said: "So what can we agree on?"

    3 I said: "It is not a problem, you know everything about

    4 me. I do not know you". He said, "that is correct".

    5 I tried to trick him into telling me his

    6 name, but I did not succeed. I said: "Tell me your

    7 name, this is going to finish, you will get something

    8 from it". However, he did not agree to that, so then

    9 I offered him: "You know who I am, you know that I am

    10 not bare", which in Bosnian means I still had some

    11 stuff stashed away. Then he said: "Oh, what do you

    12 have left?". I said: "I have two rings, each worth

    13 1,000 German Marks. I have some cash in the cell, they

    14 can be yours".

    15 Then he offered me a cigarette. I turned him

    16 down because I had a pack of cigarettes in my pocket

    17 but I never dared ask. I did not dare even reach for

    18 my pocket, so I told him I had cigarettes, that I did

    19 not need them. Then he handed me a lighter and he took

    20 me with him.

    21 I stopped him at one point and I asked him:

    22 "very well, I promised you all this, what do you give

    23 me in return?". He said: "What do you want?". I told

    24 him: "Please protect me; protect me and these 30 men,

    25 at least tonight". Then he explicitly said that he was

  49. 1 going to see to it.

    2 This was already 6.00 pm in the evening, at

    3 least that was my estimate because I did not have

    4 a watch. The shift which guarded us during the day was

    5 changing, were being replaced by another one and this

    6 new shift had already arrived so he approached one of

    7 the guards and said: "See this friend of mine, do not

    8 let anyone touch him tonight". His answer was: "Who

    9 cares". This HOS man said: "Guy, you are going to be

    10 dealing with me". To which he just shrugged and agreed

    11 with him.

    12 So, we went on for maybe 10 metres or so and

    13 there was another group of three guards. He approached

    14 them. I stayed behind at the edge of the forest. He

    15 went over to them and brought them over to me. I knew

    16 all three of them, even though they were not from

    17 Busovaca.

    18 Q. How many men were in your group?

    19 A. The ones who were digging? There were about

    20 30 of them.

    21 Q. What happened then?

    22 A. The three of them approached me. One of the

    23 three asked me: "Do you know me?". My answer was:

    24 "Maybe". Because whatever you said it did not matter,

    25 you would be beaten either way. Whatever you said you

  50. 1 would be beaten. If you, by some chance, did not

    2 address him with "sir" or the way he wanted, you would

    3 be beaten, so I did not know any more what to say, so

    4 I said: "Maybe I may have seen you somewhere, I do not

    5 know". His words were not to pretend to be a fool

    6 because we had so much business dealings that we knew

    7 each other well, because he made a lot of money off of

    8 the merchandise that he was buying from me.

    9 I think we smoked two or three cigarettes

    10 there and we had a conversation which was very, very

    11 different now, almost friendly. But after those three

    12 cigarettes, I was a bit dizzy and I said: "Please help

    13 me to go and dig along with the others because they are

    14 all digging and I am standing here". He said: "But why

    15 are they digging so hard there?". I said: "We have

    16 been working at this pace for the last 24 hours and

    17 without the any water or anything. So if you want to

    18 help us, give us some water". I am thankful to him to

    19 this day because then he went and brought us water so

    20 that we could quench our thirst. Especially myself,

    21 I was burning inside from having eaten the hat and all

    22 that.

    23 We continued to dig all the night but not as

    24 intensely as before. At one point he let us know that

    25 we should start digging harder because there was

  51. 1 a commander coming from somewhere with two or three

    2 girls, so that we should dig harder so that he could

    3 see that we work harder. But it did not matter whether

    4 we worked harder or less hard because the first seven

    5 people about that were in the trench, as they were

    6 rising in order to throw out the dirt, the soil, he

    7 would hit them with a rifle butt or with something

    8 else. Then after that he was satisfied and he left.

    9 So, we spent that night digging, though not

    10 that intensely, and there was no abuse.

    11 In the morning, the next morning, we received

    12 breakfast for the first time. If we can call it that.

    13 We were 30. There were 25/26 maybe slices of bread and

    14 10 canned fish portions. I think that there were 200

    15 gramme portions. It was not cooked. But out of these

    16 10 cans, three were empty. So this was distributed to

    17 us so we had 10 persons per can, but those three that

    18 were empty, meant that three groups were without that.

    19 The soldiers would come over to the ones who

    20 got the empty cans and say: "Did you have enough? Was

    21 there enough food?". They would say "yes", and they

    22 were beaten because they were lying.

    23 The next one said he did not have enough,

    24 then he was beaten because he had too much of an

    25 appetite. So, at least we had some bread and that took

  52. 1 off the edge from our hunger.

    2 Then one of the soldiers who was beating and

    3 mistreating me all day the day before, took me aside.

    4 He had a sniper rifle with him. He took me into

    5 a dug-out and asked me, whose sniper rifle was this.

    6 I said I did not know that. He looked at me for a few

    7 minutes and said: "So, you do not, okay, very well.

    8 You can go".

    9 So we kept digging until about two o'clock in

    10 the afternoon.

    11 Q. Were you then taken back to the prison?

    12 A. Yes. First they shut us up in that village

    13 in a small room and we were locked up there for about

    14 half an hour waiting for transportation because they

    15 told us that we were free, that we would be taken to

    16 the cells. We felt we were being born again because to

    17 go back to the cell was like being born again, at least

    18 we knew what to expect there.

    19 We were locked up there for about half an

    20 hour when a new group arrived of about 17 new people,

    21 whereas the 30 of us got into the trucks and went back

    22 to the barracks to the prison, to the cells.

    23 When I got there, I looked around before

    24 entering the cell. We were allowed to wash our hands

    25 in a barrel, which we had used for those 15 days to

  53. 1 pour water into the toilet. We also washed hands, we

    2 also washed our faces because there was no other

    3 water. We got very little water for drinking.

    4 I looked around and this HOS member was

    5 standing in the hall.

    6 Q. Where are you at this stage? Tell us, when

    7 the HOS man was standing in the hall, where was this?

    8 A. To the left, to the left side of the corridor

    9 where the cells are, the cells 1, 2, 3 --

    10 Q. You are in the Kaonik prison now, by this

    11 stage?

    12 A. Yes, when we were brought back to the Kaonik

    13 prison.

    14 Q. What happened then?

    15 A. I called my brother to bring me my purse,

    16 which was hidden with him and he brought it.

    17 I gave him the two golden rings, I gave him

    18 about 70 German Marks, 20, 30, 40,000 Croatian dinars,

    19 I cannot remember exactly.

    20 I gave him all this from the bottom of my

    21 heart, because after all he saved us that night,

    22 because the nights were the worst and the following

    23 night already would prove it from the group which took

    24 our place.

    25 As it was already dark, it was winter time

  54. 1 and darkness falls early. I managed to reach cell

    2 number 11, which someone -- I do not know whether the

    3 prison commander -- anyway, this was part of his

    4 responsibility. This was a cell where people were put

    5 when they were spared physical labour. There were two

    6 Iranians and a couple of people from Busovaca who were

    7 also on some kind of sick leave and I was given two

    8 cubes of sugar, which meant a great deal.

    9 From one of the Iranians who was a doctor,

    10 I was given two pills and an ointment. He rubbed it in

    11 because I was as black as this jacket. Only my head

    12 was still white. I was given these two pills and I was

    13 massaged by him with this ointment. I managed to

    14 swallow something, though I had to use a straw to eat

    15 the last 10 days. I could not put a crumb of bread

    16 into my mouth it was so painful. I would eat a couple

    17 of mouthfuls and I swallowed these two pills. I lay

    18 down and I fell asleep from the effect of the pills.

    19 So that I slept that night.

    20 Somewhere around 5.00 am, a terrible noise

    21 was heard, cries, shouts, blows, beatings in the

    22 corridor. I was awakened too, but I was told to keep

    23 quiet, the people who were with me in the cell. As

    24 I did not care any more, and the first thing I thought

    25 was that they were going to slowly execute us one by

  55. 1 one, because February 8th at 12.00, the exchange had

    2 been scheduled for 12.00 that day for all of us

    3 prisoners. So I thought they probably wanted to get

    4 rid of as many as us as possible before the exchange.

    5 As I had become accustomed to the beating,

    6 having been beaten so badly, I was the first to pluck

    7 up courage to knock on the door of the cell, requesting

    8 as a pretence to go to the toilet. The guard

    9 immediately opened the door and let me go. I headed

    10 towards the toilet, but I secretly looked around to see

    11 what was happening in the corridor.

    12 HV policemen, one of whom I know personally,

    13 were beating these men and this HOS man who had

    14 mistreated us at Kula. Later on I learned, because

    15 rumour spread quickly and we learned very shortly

    16 afterwards why this was happening. The reason was that

    17 when us 30 came down from Kula, 17 others replaced us

    18 and they worked for the rest of the day normally, but

    19 that very night -- we were all afraid of the nights,

    20 because they were roasting lambs, they drank a lot of

    21 alcohol, and then they would go out to the trenches,

    22 the front-lines where people were digging, and then they

    23 would beat up and massacre people. So on the night

    24 between the 7th and the 8th these 17 people were

    25 disastrously beaten up. Out of the 17, 15 returned;

  56. 1 out of those 15, I knew each and every one of them, but

    2 you could not recognise them. They were so badly

    3 beaten up. Two guys did not return, they were killed

    4 at Kula.

    5 Q. Now, you mentioned the places that you were

    6 taken trench digging. I want you to look at the map

    7 that he I now show you. Using the highlighting pen,

    8 would you please indicate on this the places that --

    9 the two places that you were taken when you were trench

    10 digging -- maybe three places. The places you were

    11 taken for trench digging. (Handed).

    12 Again, if you could do that on the ELMO for

    13 me. When you mark them, if you highlight them, could

    14 you just tell us which place it is that you are

    15 highlighting and then we will put numbers again on the

    16 places. First, could you do that for us, please?

    17 Perhaps if you do it in order it would be

    18 helpful. I think you said you were taken to Putis on

    19 the first occasion, if I remember correctly. Do you

    20 see that place there, could you indicate where it was

    21 you were taken trench digging?

    22 A. Yes, yes. (Witness marked map).

    23 Q. Now put a circle around it. Mark it with the

    24 number "1", if you would.

    25 Now, the next place you were taken, were you

  57. 1 taken to Strane?

    2 A. This was all in the same night.

    3 Q. I am sorry.

    4 A. It was during one night. We were working all

    5 night. You cover 10 kilometres easily. So that the

    6 area that I will now mark was roughly the area that we

    7 spent that night working in. (Witness marked map).

    8 Q. Now, that is fine. Now the next place that

    9 you mentioned was Kula. Again, if you could find that

    10 for me on the map. Indicate the place where you worked

    11 when you were at Kula.

    12 A. (Witness marked map).

    13 Q. If you mark that with the number "2". Then

    14 the area where you were working on the trenches, are

    15 you able to indicate that for us?

    16 A. (Witness marked map).

    17 MR. NIEMANN: Okay. I tender that, if your

    18 Honours please, and we will give it the next number in

    19 order.

    20 You said a moment ago in your evidence that

    21 you anticipated being exchanged on 8th February 1993.

    22 Why had you expected that you would be exchanged on

    23 that date, namely, 8th February 1993?

    24 A. We learned that at Kula from the soldiers, as

    25 a good piece of news that they conveyed to us by

  58. 1 saying: "You are lucky after all, because you will be

    2 exchanged tomorrow at 12.00", which meant 8th February,

    3 that it had been arranged for that day.

    4 Since we had already been registered by the

    5 Red Cross, there were some early indications that this

    6 could happen on the 8th at 12.00.

    7 Q. What happened on the 8th at 12.00?

    8 A. On 8th February, the morning after that big

    9 hullabaloo with the Croatian police, who arrested its

    10 own soldiers and detained them, we were simply taken in

    11 front of the building, the building of the prison, so

    12 that we were all there, almost all of us in a group,

    13 already about eleven o'clock. None of us had watches,

    14 it may even have been ten o'clock in the morning when

    15 we were taken out. However, the exchange was delayed

    16 because of these two men who had been killed in the

    17 night between the 7th and the 8th because the Red Cross

    18 insisted on finding them too and they were not to be

    19 found.

    20 Q. Who was present out the front when you were

    21 taken out there, do you recall anyone being present

    22 when the exchange was to take place?

    23 A. At the exchange, there were quite a number of

    24 them. All the guards. Anto Sliskovic was present,

    25 Mr. Aleksovski was present, all of them were present.

  59. 1 Even this friend of me, Petrovic Zarko, he was there.

    2 Q. Apart from the two men who had been killed,

    3 were you then all exchanged on that day?

    4 A. At least as far as we knew, we thought that

    5 all of us had been exchanged, but some people did stay

    6 behind in the prison, the two Iranians, and all the

    7 others who were detained from the Busovaca area were

    8 exchanged and allowed to go whichever side they

    9 wanted. Some went to Busovaca, some to their own

    10 villages, some towards Zenica, it depended.

    11 However, there is something else that

    12 happened before we actually boarded the bus: some of

    13 the things that were found on this HOS man and the two

    14 soldiers who were beaten up by the HVO police on them

    15 some valuables were found. Among these three rings,

    16 some money, a couple of watches, obviously the things

    17 that were of value because the rest he had probably

    18 shared out.

    19 So that one of the guards brought these

    20 things and asked who they belonged to and gave these

    21 things back. By chance my two rings were there and

    22 another one ring only belonging to a Burbur, an old

    23 ring of value, so that is all that was returned, only

    24 three rings out of the jewellery. Then among the money

    25 there was only some 20 Marks that nobody wanted to take

  60. 1 and also there were a couple of watches that nobody

    2 cared about any more, that is what was returned to us.

    3 Q. You mentioned seeing Mr. Aleksovski in the

    4 camp, had you known him before you went to Kaonik camp?

    5 A. No, no, never.

    6 Q. Did you see him very often when you were in

    7 the camp?

    8 A. I saw him for the first time when he

    9 introduced himself in the hangar. I saw him a second

    10 time when a young man was brought back from Kula with

    11 his ribs broken and when he asked him, "Mr. Governor,

    12 please help us", and he, indeed, did help him. He sent

    13 him a pill for dysentery. That is when I saw him.

    14 That was the second time. The third time, when he was

    15 standing in the corridor, and distributing papers to

    16 the guards.

    17 Q. Do you think that you would recognise him

    18 again if you saw him?

    19 A. I could not say for sure because, in a sense,

    20 we were not really -- we did not really dare to look at

    21 him. He was short, as far as I remember. Maybe

    22 I would, probably.

    23 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions,

    24 your Honour.

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: In a moment, you will be

  61. 1 answering questions after those put to you by

    2 Mr. Niemann. I think that perhaps Mr. Mikulicic will do

    3 the cross-examination, perhaps it would be better to

    4 begin after the lunch break. So we are going to have

    5 a lunch break now. Have a good lunch all of you.

    6 (12.50 pm)

    7 (The luncheon adjournment)



















  62. 1 (2.30 pm)

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good afternoon. Are the

    3 interpreters ready?

    4 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, thank you.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: The Defence? I take

    6 advantage of this opportunity to greet Mr. Joka, who we

    7 have not seen for a long time, and Mr. Mikulicic, you

    8 have the floor for the cross-examination.

    9 Cross-examined by MR. MIKULICIC

    10 Q. Thank you, your Honours.

    11 Mr. F, I am Mr. Mikulicic, Defence counsel for

    12 the accused in this case. I am going to ask you some

    13 questions and I would like you to answer them as well

    14 as you recollect them.

    15 Mr. F, when you gave your statement, you said

    16 that you spent -- lived in Busovaca a long time. How

    17 long was this period?

    18 A. From when -- from my birth until 1993.

    19 Q. During this period, you achieved a status

    20 there which can be described as being a wealthy member

    21 of the Busovaca community; is that correct?

    22 A. Yes, it is.

    23 Q. Is it also true that you engaged in sports?

    24 A. Yes, that is correct.

    25 (redacted)

  63. 1 (redacted)

    2 A. I would not like to answer that question.

    3 Q. Let me rephrase, you are absolutely right.

    4 Is it true that a lot of people knew you as a prominent

    5 athlete in that area?

    6 A. That is correct.

    7 Q. Mr. F, on the day which you described when the

    8 conflict started in Busovaca, you said that you noticed

    9 some foreign soldiers?

    10 A. I did not notice, I saw them. I personally

    11 saw them.

    12 Q. Could you tell us, what do you mean by

    13 "foreign soldiers"?

    14 A. They had HV insignia on them and, "Runolist

    15 Brigade", or, "Edelweiss Brigade", was on their

    16 camouflage uniforms.

    17 Q. You said that they were speaking in

    18 a different accent. What kind of accent was it?

    19 A. It was an accent from Herzegovina.

    20 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber where

    21 Herzegovina is located?

    22 A. Why not?

    23 Q. It is part of which country?

    24 A. It is part of Bosnia Herzegovina.

    25 Q. Mr. F, who brought you to Kaonik? I mean,

  64. 1 which persons were these? The soldiers from

    2 Herzegovina, or were there some other soldiers who

    3 brought you there?

    4 A. There was a lot of military personnel there,

    5 a lot of uniformed men in the HVO -- with HVO insignia,

    6 HV insignia and Runolist Brigade insignia.

    7 They rounded us up on to 15 square metres in

    8 the main square and then they loaded us on these buses,

    9 and the driver who was driving us was a local man from

    10 Busovaca.

    11 Q. Who received you in Kaonik?

    12 A. At first nobody received us. The bus simply

    13 came to a stop in front of the hangar, the entrance to

    14 the hangar. There were two guards, two soldiers to the

    15 side and while even still on the bus, we were ordered

    16 to file out one by one, enter there and face the wall.

    17 Q. You said "the guards", "soldiers"; were these

    18 guards from Kaonik or were these soldiers part of the

    19 group of soldiers who brought you there?

    20 A. They were not guards from Kaonik, but they

    21 were guards from Busovaca. For instance, one of them

    22 was from the village of Boselj. I know him

    23 personally.

    24 Q. So is it true that the two persons who you

    25 called guards were not guards at Kaonik, but among the

  65. 1 soldiers who brought you up there?

    2 A. No, that is incorrect.

    3 Q. Would you please correct me then?

    4 A. Yes. The soldiers who were placing us on

    5 these buses in Busovaca, they remained there. Only one

    6 soldier went along together with the driver and the

    7 driver was armed too, so it was only the two of them

    8 who brought us to Kaonik and in Kaonik in front of the

    9 hangar, other soldiers were waiting.

    10 Q. So, the other soldiers who waited in front of

    11 the hangar at Kaonik were not guards at Kaonik? That

    12 is my question, really.

    13 A. How come they were not? They were there with

    14 weapons, they had to be guards.

    15 Q. Allow me to rephrase my question: the two men

    16 of whom you spoke, did you see these two later as

    17 guards, while you were in Kaonik?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Where did you see them?

    20 A. The first day, the first night, the second

    21 day and the second night -- they were there non-stop,

    22 in front of the hangar on guard posts. Later we saw

    23 them in the cells too.

    24 Q. What types of uniforms did they wear?

    25 A. Camouflage.

  66. 1 Q. Were there any insignia there?

    2 A. HVO.

    3 Q. Mr. F, you described in your statement how you

    4 were taken out of Kaonik and taken to dig trenches?

    5 A. Correct.

    6 Q. Who watched you while you dug trenches?

    7 A. The first time we went digging we were

    8 watched by the soldiers who were from Vitez. The

    9 second time people who -- I do not know the people, God

    10 knows where they came from, but there were a few of

    11 them from Busovaca whom I knew, but those never came

    12 even close to us, not even 10 to 15 metres.

    13 Q. During the first or second digging, did you

    14 notice whether you were watched by any of the guards

    15 from Kaonik?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. Do you know who was the commander of the

    18 front-line at Kula?

    19 A. No. I had no time to think about it. I did

    20 not have the time to look around.

    21 Q. Mr. F, correct me if I am wrong, but tell me:

    22 did you not state that the first night when you arrived

    23 to the prison, and put in the cells, that you were

    24 taken out by a person called Marelja and he beat you up

    25 in front of the guards?

  67. 1 A. Correct.

    2 Q. Is it correct that this Marelja was not the

    3 a guard?

    4 A. That is correct too.

    5 Q. What was he, do you know?

    6 A. He was a soldier, an HVO soldier, who was

    7 free to move wherever he wanted. He was free to enter,

    8 leave. He was free to enter the prison, the cells,

    9 whatever he wished.

    10 Q. Do you know whether he was a detainee in this

    11 prison?

    12 A. I do not know that and I do not believe he

    13 was. In fact, he was not there for sure, he was not

    14 a detainee there.

    15 Q. Mr. F, you said that from the building with

    16 the cells, you were taken to another building. Do you

    17 know who was placed in -- who was placed there?

    18 A. It was the so-called intervention platoon or

    19 the special purpose platoon, that was the first

    20 building next to the gate.

    21 Q. Do you know who was the commander of this

    22 intervention platoon?

    23 A. At Kaonik that I do not know, but I know

    24 overall because I believed this could have been part of

    25 this intervention platoon, and the overall commander

  68. 1 was Miko.

    2 Q. Do you know whether the commander of Kaonik

    3 had any authority over the intervention platoon?

    4 A. I cannot speak to that.

    5 Q. You said that you were questioned in this

    6 building. Do you perhaps recall, when you entered this

    7 building, could you smell food, whether food was

    8 prepared there?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. What were you questioned about?

    11 A. On all kinds of things. For instance, why

    12 was I at my brother's house; why was a certain person

    13 called Berber in this street; why a person -- I do not

    14 know if I should mention his name, but he was

    15 Croatian -- why was he spending so much time with us in

    16 the days leading to the conflict? They were asking me

    17 all kinds of things to which I had no answer.

    18 Q. Did they ask anything about weapons?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Can you tell us about that?

    21 A. Why not? They asked me for my personal

    22 weapons.

    23 Q. What type of weapons are these?

    24 A. It is a pistol called Skorpion.

    25 Q. Is it an automatic pistol?

  69. 1 A. I think it is semi-automatic.

    2 Q. Were they also asking for something else?

    3 A. Not from me. They were asking me where the

    4 radio transmitter was. I had no idea that it existed,

    5 let alone that I possessed it.

    6 Q. Tell me about the Marelja who beat you. What

    7 did he want from you?

    8 A. Obviously, gold and money.

    9 Q. Did he know that you were wealthy?

    10 A. He had information from somewhere.

    11 Q. But this was a generally known thing?

    12 A. It could not have been known to him because

    13 he was not a local. Somebody from the local people

    14 gave him this information.

    15 Q. When you were taken to Kula, did they also

    16 ask you for some valuables?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. This is the event that you describe?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Very well, we will not go back to that.

    21 Tell me, how did you know that you were going

    22 to be exchanged on 8th February?

    23 A. Almost all of us knew that.

    24 Q. Did somebody tell you this?

    25 A. Red Cross, which had registered us and which

  70. 1 visited again after that first registration visit,

    2 suggested that on this day, 8th February, would take

    3 place. But I learned about the exact date and time

    4 from the guards at Kula who came -- how shall I put

    5 it -- to give us the good news.

    6 Q. Now, tell me, when did the Red Cross register

    7 you; do you recall that? Maybe you do not recall the

    8 date, but in relation to the time when you first

    9 arrived in Kaonik?

    10 A. Just a moment, please. I think it was

    11 sometime around 1st February. I am sorry that I do not

    12 have the ID card here, because that is where -- it is

    13 written down there, but I think it was around February

    14 1st or maybe 31st January.

    15 Q. You said that one morning you were awakened

    16 by some big noise?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Yes, you described it, so I am not going to

    19 dwell on it. The military policemen arrived and

    20 arrested the people who had taken valuables from the

    21 people at Kula?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Do you know whether the military policemen

    24 intervened at the suggestion of the Kaonik camp

    25 commander Zlatko Aleksovski?

  71. 1 A. No. The intervention came after somebody

    2 reported that there was somebody among the soldiers,

    3 the HVO soldiers up at Kula and so they thought the

    4 that somebody had overstepped the limits and they

    5 called the military police.

    6 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you very much. The

    7 Defence has no further questions.

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, do you have any

    9 re-examination?

    10 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour. We do seek

    11 a redaction at page 62, lines 12, 13 and 14. I believe

    12 it has already been shown to your Honour.

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: In that case, Witness F,

    14 you have completed your testimony. The International

    15 Criminal Tribunal thanks you for having come and for

    16 your testimony. Thank you very much.

    17 A. Thank you too, your Honours.

    18 (The witness withdrew)

    19 MR. MARCHESIELLO: Good afternoon, your

    20 Honours. May it please the court. The next witness is

    21 asking for protective measures and the reason for his

    22 request has already been exposed to you by my

    23 colleagues, they did already explain to you in the

    24 course of this trial, why do they so often need and

    25 they feel they need protective measures.

  72. 1 I am confident, therefore, that my learned

    2 friend, Mr. Mikulicic, Defence counsel, will not oppose

    3 this request, so I understand, and the court will

    4 decide accordingly and grant the measures, including

    5 face distortion and pseudonym for the witness, which

    6 I think will be letter G.

    7 We may introduce the witness.

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, have you any

    9 objections or comments?

    10 MR. MIKULICIC: The Defence has no objections,

    11 your Honours.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Have you taken all the

    13 necessary protective measures, Mr. Dubuisson? Yes,

    14 please bring in the witness.

    15 (The witness entered court)

    16 Good afternoon, sir. Are you well?

    17 A. Yes, thank God.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You are going to read the

    19 declaration which the Registrar will give you. Will

    20 you, please, stand?

    21 Q. Solemn declaration: I solemnly declare that

    22 I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but

    23 the truth.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You may be seated. You are

    25 going to answer questions which the Prosecutor is going

  73. 1 to put to you, please. Is that clear?

    2 A. Yes, thank you.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Prosecutor.


    5 Examined by MR. MARCHESIELLO

    6 Q. Thank you.

    7 The usher will show you now a sheet of paper

    8 on which your name is written. Please let us know and

    9 the court know, if that is your name, say "yes". If

    10 the contrary, say "no". Thank you. (Handed).

    11 A. Yes.

    12 MR. MARCHESIELLO: Please show the Defence.

    13 (Handed).

    14 I tender the document as evidence.

    15 THE REGISTRAR: It is exhibit number 49.

    16 MR. MARCHESIELLO: Now, for this examination,

    17 you are Mr. G. Please do not refer to your name, to

    18 your real name, during this examination. Do you

    19 understand; do you agree?

    20 A. Yes, I understand, and yes.

    21 Q. The only personal datum we need to have from

    22 you is concerning your age. Which is your age now,

    23 today? How old are you?

    24 A. 48.

    25 Q. What is your nationality?

  74. 1 A. Bosniak.

    2 Q. And your faith?

    3 A. Islam. I am a Muslim.

    4 Q. Are you practising your religion?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Now, if you do agree, I would like to bring

    7 your memory to January 1993, when you were living in

    8 Busovaca, were you not?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Were you living there with your family?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. How was the situation in Busovaca at that

    13 time in your neighbourhood, particularly from the point

    14 of view of ethnic interrelations?

    15 A. If you think about my immediate

    16 neighbourhood, I had no problems with them, but

    17 generally speaking the situation of that period, there

    18 was some division.

    19 Q. Can you be more detailed about that? Which

    20 kind of divisions were evident to you during that

    21 period of time?

    22 A. (Answer not translated).

    23 Q. I repeat my question. You said that there

    24 were many distinctions between the situation in your

    25 neighbourhood and the distinction in the Busovaca

  75. 1 area. Which kind of divisions were evident to you in

    2 that period of time in the area of Busovaca?

    3 A. People -- people went to different groups.

    4 The Croats would be meeting more with Croats and the

    5 Bosniaks more with Bosniaks, in that sense.

    6 Q. Let us go to your neighbourhood, was it

    7 a mixed neighbourhood, were there Croats and Muslims

    8 living together?

    9 A. In my street on the one side of the street

    10 were Muslims, that is Bosniaks and on the other side

    11 lived the Croats.

    12 Q. But was this intentional, was this because of

    13 the division, of the ethnic division you were referring

    14 to before, or just simply an accident, it happened to

    15 be so in the developing of the town?

    16 A. It was not intentional, it was -- for the

    17 most part, these were new houses, people lived there

    18 for up to five or to ten years and I built my house in

    19 1985 and to the right the Croats lived.

    20 Q. Among your Croat neighbours was there Dario

    21 Kordic?

    22 A. Yes, he was.

    23 Q. Did you meet him on a daily basis, did you

    24 have any relation? Were you friends or familiar

    25 together?

  76. 1 A. I knew him, but we did not have common

    2 friends or did he socialise? We would just say "hello"

    3 if we saw each other in the streets but we were not

    4 really friends, close friends.

    5 Q. But did you have any one particular official

    6 contact with Kordic before or after your detention in

    7 Kaonik? Do you remember this occasion?

    8 A. Before my detention, I did not have any

    9 contact with him. Absolutely none. Afterwards I did,

    10 when I came out of the camp I did and the reason was it

    11 was Bajram and we in Busovaca could not go to the

    12 mosque. As we were neighbours, I went to ask for

    13 permission to go to Zenica to the mosque.

    14 Q. Sorry to interrupt you, you mean that Muslims

    15 at that time were not allowed to go to the mosque, to

    16 attend their religious services?

    17 A. Just then, when we had Bajram, the Bajram

    18 holiday, we were not allowed to go.

    19 Q. Who did not allow you to go, by which

    20 authority were you forbidden to do so?

    21 A. We simply did not have freedom of movement to

    22 be able to go there. I could not really tell you

    23 exactly such and such a person prohibited us from

    24 going.

    25 Q. Let us go now to January 23rd, 1993. Do you

  77. 1 remember what happened to you that morning? Can you

    2 tell the court what happened to you that morning?

    3 A. Early in the morning the sirens were on in

    4 town, the sirens from the fire brigade centre. I think

    5 it was about 6.00 in the morning, I could not tell you

    6 exactly but roughly about that time.

    7 My house has a first floor level. I was

    8 upstairs. I came down to the living room with my

    9 wife. She prepared coffee for us. I did not have any

    10 particular suspicions, but I already noticed HVO

    11 soldiers moving along a side street. Shortly after

    12 that they came in front of my door and said that

    13 I should come with them. They were wearing camouflage,

    14 though some were also in black uniforms. Some of them

    15 even had helmets and they had automatic rifles on

    16 them.

    17 They took me from there to the police station

    18 and they brought there too some other Muslims.

    19 I cannot recall their names. There were about 10 of

    20 us. From there we were sent to the Kaonik prison, or

    21 rather we were transported in a van to the Kaonik

    22 prison.

    23 I was in the camp for 15/16 days --

    24 Q. Sorry, I have to interrupt you. How long did

    25 you stay in the police station and when did you reach

  78. 1 Kaonik on the van?

    2 A. I think we stayed for about one hour in the

    3 police station.

    4 Q. Then when did you arrive at Kaonik; the same

    5 day?

    6 A. Yes. Yes, during that same day. Kaonik is

    7 close to the police station, maybe three kilometres.

    8 Three and a half.

    9 Q. What happened on your arrival at Kaonik? How

    10 did the situation and the place look like to you?

    11 A. I knew the place from before, because the

    12 Yugoslav People's Army had their barracks there. When

    13 we were brought there it was under the control of the

    14 HVO and they put us up there. In fact, all that day

    15 they kept bringing in more Muslims and Bosniaks. I was

    16 among the first to get there, so that I saw them

    17 bringing in more and more people.

    18 Q. So, when you did arrive at Kaonik, your group

    19 was the first one to be introduced in the camp,

    20 according to what you are saying?

    21 A. I could not exactly say that we were the

    22 first, but we were among the first.

    23 Q. Where were you brought that very day? In

    24 what kind of facility were you detained?

    25 A. I know that it was a large room and inside

  79. 1 were cells. There were several cells and we were put

    2 in those cells.

    3 Q. How long did you stay in Kaonik after that?

    4 A. 16 days.

    5 Q. Were you detained always in the same cell or

    6 were you changed to other cells? If so, in the same

    7 building?

    8 A. I was in the same building all the time, but

    9 in different cells, because I was taken to dig trenches

    10 and as the groups came back we were not necessarily

    11 returned to the same cell. We would be -- I would be

    12 in one cell one day and then in another, another, but

    13 I was not in the same cell all the time, that is for

    14 sure.

    15 Q. Where did you take your meals? In the same

    16 building, or were they taken into the cells? Was the

    17 food brought to you in the cells?

    18 A. While you were in the cells, we would go out

    19 into the corridor. There was quite a long corridor in

    20 front of the cells, going across the middle of the

    21 building, and we would eat on a table, on a long wooden

    22 table, so that we were mostly eating in the corridors.

    23 We did not eat in the cells.

    24 Q. Had you other opportunities to move along the

    25 corridor or to see what was going on in the corridor?

  80. 1 A. Of course, I could not move around, but if we

    2 asked -- I apologise -- to go to the toilet --

    3 Q. Then you were allowed to go to the toilet?

    4 How many times a day were you allowed?

    5 A. (Answer not translated).

    6 Q. Please, may I get the translation. Were you

    7 allowed to go to the toilet more than once in a day?

    8 A. (Answer not translated).

    9 Q. Now you understand me; yes. Were you allowed

    10 to go to the toilet and, if so, how many times in

    11 a day? As soon as you asked, were you allowed to do

    12 that?

    13 A. (Answer not translated).

    14 MR. MARCHESIELLO: Do the translators think we

    15 can go on?

    16 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. One microphone is

    17 working.

    18 MR. MARCHESIELLO: How many times in a day

    19 were you allowed to go to the toilet, just once or how

    20 many?

    21 A. Sometimes whenever we asked, they would let

    22 us go, but at other times they would not let us go.

    23 Q. Were there windows in the cell you were put

    24 into?

    25 A. No, there were not any windows except for

  81. 1 a window above the door to the cell. But you could not

    2 see anything outside.

    3 Q. You mean that it was possible to see what is

    4 going on in the hallway, in the corridor, if not

    5 directly by standing on somebody else's shoulder, for

    6 example?

    7 A. Only if we were to climb on somebody's

    8 shoulders, but no-one dared do that.

    9 Q. Was there a peeping hole in the door?

    10 A. Yes, there was. A small hole, but I said we

    11 did not dare look because the guards were outside in

    12 the corridors, so we did not dare look through to see

    13 what was happening.

    14 Q. Did you ever see or hear during your stay at

    15 Kaonik something unusual happening in the hallway, in

    16 the corridor, in the cells near were you were being

    17 detained? Beatings, screams, other unusual events?

    18 A. I do not remember hearing that.

    19 Q. Do you know who was the commander or the

    20 warden, let us say, of the camp?

    21 A. I do not know his name but at the time when

    22 I went to the camp, I did not know him at all. Nor had

    23 I heard of him.

    24 Q. Was his office in the same building where you

    25 were detained?

  82. 1 A. At the entrance to the building, on the

    2 left-hand side, there were two offices, where I saw

    3 guards.

    4 MR. MARCHESIELLO: Now, I am going to show you

    5 a photograph.

    6 May I introduce this into evidence?

    7 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit 50.

    8 MR. MARCHESIELLO: Can you show it to

    9 Mr. Mikulicic, please? (Handed).

    10 Witness G, do you recognise the hallway of

    11 the building you have been detained in?

    12 A. I do.

    13 Q. Can you identify the places where you were

    14 taken when you were taking your meals?

    15 A. Yes, you can see a big stove made from

    16 a barrel and then this table over here that you can

    17 see, there was a long table there. That is where we

    18 ate.

    19 MR. MARCHESIELLO: Can you draw a circle round

    20 it with the pen and sign it and mark it with the

    21 letter --

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me, could you please

    23 point on the ELMO, please?

    24 MR. MARCHESIELLO: Can you, please, look at

    25 the photograph on that ELMO there?

  83. 1 Show, please, again where the table was

    2 around which you usually take your meals. Can you draw

    3 a circle around it and sign it with the letter "A"?

    4 A. (Witness marked map).

    5 Q. Can you point to the windows from the cells

    6 that look on the hallway, the windows over the doors of

    7 the cells?

    8 A. (Indicating on photograph).

    9 Q. And, can you, please, now point to the

    10 direction which the warden's office was, if it is not

    11 in the picture?

    12 A. (Indicating on photograph).

    13 Q. Can you draw an arrow in that direction,

    14 please?

    15 A. (Witness marked map). This was the entrance

    16 to the building.

    17 Q. Where were the two offices?

    18 A. The offices -- in this direction, the office

    19 was here, to this side and this side. (Indicating).

    20 If this is the door, that would be the entrance to the

    21 office.

    22 Q. Can you mark the door, giving entrance to the

    23 office with the letter "B", with an arrow and a letter

    24 "B".

    25 A. (Witness marked map).

  84. 1 MR. MARCHESIELLO: Thank you.

    2 I tender the photograph into evidence,

    3 please.

    4 Now, Witness G, during your stay in Kaonik,

    5 were you taken out of the camp, and for which purposes?

    6 A. Yes, I was. I went to dig trenches and

    7 canals and dug-outs and that sort of thing.

    8 Q. How many times did you go trench digging?

    9 A. Every day.

    10 Q. How many of them were taken together? How

    11 many prisoners?

    12 A. We went in groups of 20 to dig trenches.

    13 Q. And how were prisoners selected for this

    14 purpose? Were they called out at random or did the

    15 guards have a list of names for each day?

    16 A. No, it was not at random, they had a precise

    17 list of names for each group, where they were going

    18 to. We did not always go to the same place, we went to

    19 several places.

    20 Q. Who did actually call out the names of the

    21 prisoners?

    22 A. A person was designated in the camp. It was

    23 always one and the same person who called out the names

    24 for trench digging.

    25 Q. You do not know his name?

  85. 1 A. Marko.

    2 Q. Where did he get a daily list from?

    3 A. I could not see because I was in the cell.

    4 My assumption was that he got the list in that office

    5 but I really do not know because I was in the cell.

    6 MR. MARCHESIELLO: Where have you been taken

    7 trench digging during those days? Can you list the

    8 places and, please, can you sign them on the map that

    9 will be shown to you? It is a map that has already

    10 been produced into evidence. Here is a map for the

    11 judges and for the witness.

    12 Show it, please, to Mr. Mikulicic. (Handed).

    13 THE REGISTRAR: It is Exhibit 51.

    14 MR. MARCHESIELLO: Thank you.

    15 Witness G, can you show us the places where

    16 you have been taken trench digging and, as I have asked

    17 you to do before, circle them with a pen and mark with

    18 letters. If you tell us the places in order, according

    19 to your memory.

    20 A. I went to several places, so I will mark

    21 those places where I went to.

    22 Q. Please do, and give us the names, please.

    23 A. Bare; Prosje; Kula. (Witness marked map).

    24 Those are mostly the places I went to.

    25 Q. Could you, please, sign the names with

  86. 1 letters, "A", "B" and "C"?

    2 A. Bare, "A". Within the circle or outside it?

    3 Q. It does not matter.

    4 A. (Answer not translated).

    5 MR. MARCHESIELLO: Thank you. I tender that.

    6 Witness G, while digging -- and you said you

    7 have been taken there many times -- did you ever find

    8 yourself under fire or were you exposed to shooting by

    9 any of the opposing lines?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. How did it happen? Do you have any specific

    12 memory as to this?

    13 A. For instance, when they would take us to the

    14 line for trench digging, they would simply tell us that

    15 we had to dig and they did not care that we were

    16 exposed to the possibility of being fired at. We

    17 simply had to dig.

    18 Q. And was somebody of your fellows wounded or

    19 killed during this work and in these circumstances?

    20 A. In my presence, no. But I know that two

    21 people were killed.

    22 Q. And, therefore, how long approximately were

    23 you forced to dig during a single day?

    24 A. That differed. Sometimes we would dig from

    25 7.00/8.00 in the morning until the evening. Sometimes

  87. 1 we would dig day and night, and sometimes dig all day,

    2 all night and the following day.

    3 Q. What about food, did you have a possibility

    4 to have some rest?

    5 A. No, what do you mean "rest"? There was no

    6 rest. We were forced to dig. As for food, it was very

    7 poor, very, very poor.

    8 Q. Which kind of food did you receive and which

    9 quantities?

    10 A. Shall we say if we were digging all day, all

    11 the time, then another evening, then we would share

    12 a tin of fish food for two people. The HVO soldiers

    13 would just say that they did not get any food for us,

    14 so they would not give us any.

    15 When I said that the two of us would get one

    16 of these fish cans or some meat paste, that was to be

    17 shared between the two of us for the whole day. We

    18 would get food just once a day.

    19 Q. From this, did any mistreatment or abuse take

    20 place on these occasions during work?

    21 A. Thank God I was lucky enough that in my

    22 vicinity there was no mistreatment.

    23 Q. And in the camp?

    24 A. In the camp sometimes some HVO soldiers would

    25 come but I did not know them. They were not from

  88. 1 Busovaca. I know that they usually asked people to

    2 take off their watches and rings, if they had them.

    3 Q. Were you forced to give some of your

    4 property, valuables, money, rings?

    5 A. Personally I did not have any, but I was

    6 referring to others, those who had watches or money or

    7 gold, they were asked to turn them over.

    8 Q. Asked by whom, according to your knowledge?

    9 A. According to my knowledge and from

    10 conversations I had later, there was an HVO soldier

    11 from Novi Travnik. They called him Marelja. I am not

    12 sure if that was his name or last name but I know he

    13 was called Marelja.

    14 Q. Then what was this soldier supposed to do

    15 seeing the prisoners, asking them to give him money,

    16 searching them and asking them to give properties?

    17 A. He was taking it for himself.

    18 Q. Witness G, how did you leave the camp? Were

    19 you exchanged?

    20 A. Yes, I was exchanged. They said the

    21 conditions were such that those who wanted to go back

    22 to Busovaca could go and those who wanted to go to

    23 Zenica they could go there, or to go to Kacuni, which

    24 is near Busovaca. Because my family was in Busovaca

    25 I did not want to get separated from them. I then

  89. 1 returned to Busovaca, even though they did not give us

    2 any guarantees after that.

    3 Q. So where did you choose to go first after you

    4 had been released?

    5 A. I went back to my home.

    6 Q. In Busovaca, you mean?

    7 A. Yes, in Busovaca, that is right. In Busovaca

    8 that is where I went. For a while I was there at the

    9 my house and then later I moved to my mother's house

    10 together with my family.

    11 Q. Why did you move to your mother's house?

    12 A. As Croats were coming from other places, the

    13 HVO police would move them into these different houses

    14 and they simply told us to get out.

    15 Q. And you did, in fact, leave all your

    16 belongings?

    17 A. Yes, then I gave it over to the Croats, whom

    18 I barely knew, but the HVO police kicked them out as

    19 well and brought in another two families so, of course,

    20 everything remained behind, the house, the belongings,

    21 furniture, everything.

    22 Q. What happened then? Where did you decide to

    23 move?

    24 A. I moved to my mother's, so I stayed with her

    25 for a while.

  90. 1 Q. And then?

    2 A. After a while I requested to be transferred

    3 to Zenica and I went to the HVO office and I asked them

    4 to give me permission to leave.

    5 Then they set conditions for me of how

    6 I could leave. They said that my family had to stay

    7 behind and I had to send a doctor from Zenica to

    8 Busovaca and for each member of my family I had to

    9 bring over two Croats.

    10 They put down the name on a piece of paper.

    11 They asked for Dr. Barac.

    12 Q. How many members were in your family?

    13 A. At that time we were seven, but my sister has

    14 since died, so for the seven of us I needed to find 14

    15 Croats to be sent to Busovaca so they would be

    16 released.

    17 When I came to Zenica I could not find enough

    18 Croats who wanted to go to Busovaca --

    19 Q. Sorry to interrupt you, so actually your

    20 family was forced to stay, was not allowed to leave

    21 Busovaca; is that so?

    22 A. Yes, that is correct. I said that I was

    23 blackmailed that my family had to -- my family plus my

    24 mother, plus my late sister and her daughter, they all

    25 had to stay behind in Busovaca so that I could send the

  91. 1 doctor and the group of Croats over.

    2 Q. So you went to Zenica?

    3 A. Yes, I went to Zenica and I reported there.

    4 Then I went the to this doctor. I asked him whether he

    5 wanted to go to Busovaca and he refused right away. He

    6 did not even want to discuss going back to Busovaca.

    7 Then I asked him to give me a document stating in

    8 writing that this was his wish so I would not have any

    9 problems over it.

    10 Then I was told that there was a family who

    11 wanted to go, a family, there were five. In fact,

    12 there were four of them in that family and they also

    13 brought an acquaintance with them and I did not manage

    14 to find more of them there, so it took about 10 days

    15 and it was -- there was a lot of uncertainty. I had

    16 big problems trying to find people who wanted to go to

    17 Busovaca.

    18 Q. Finally, did they go to Busovaca, these

    19 Croats?

    20 A. Yes, they went to Busovaca and after that my

    21 family was released from Busovaca.

    22 Q. How long after these Croats reached Busovaca

    23 was your family released?

    24 A. I think that they spent one night together

    25 there in Busovaca and then the following morning my

  92. 1 family was released.

    2 MR. MARCHESIELLO: Thank you, your Honours.

    3 No more questions.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, you have the

    5 floor.

    6 Cross-examined by MR. MIKULICIC

    7 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, your Honours.

    8 Good morning, Mr. G, I am Mr. Mikulicic, the

    9 Defence counsel for the accused in this case. I will

    10 ask you several questions and I would kindly ask you to

    11 respond to the best of your memory.

    12 Mr. G, you said that on that morning in

    13 January 1993 you heard a siren from the fire-fighting

    14 hall; is that correct?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Do you know who does give this signal, this

    17 siren?

    18 A. I know in regular conditions, but when it

    19 happened I did not know who did it.

    20 Q. When you arrived in Kaonik, did anybody

    21 receive you? Did anybody take down your data?

    22 A. I cannot remember exactly. I believed they

    23 did, but I am not sure of it. I think that they did

    24 because they had a list from which they were calling us

    25 out.

  93. 1 Q. Mr. G, when you were taken from Kaonik to the

    2 locations which are shown on the map, who guarded you

    3 while you were doing forced labour?

    4 A. The HVO soldiers, and they also had the

    5 letter "U", I should add.

    6 Q. Were these the same people who guarded you at

    7 Kaonik?

    8 A. They were not. No, they were not the same.

    9 Q. Did you personally know the guards from

    10 Kaonik?

    11 A. No, I did not know them because from what

    12 I could see, for the most part they were unknown to me

    13 and I do not know their names at all.

    14 Q. Mr. G, you mentioned a person who asked for

    15 money and valuables from the people who were staying at

    16 Kaonik. You said that his name was Marelja; is that

    17 correct?

    18 A. As I said, this is how I heard him being

    19 called. I do not know whether this is his name or his

    20 nickname.

    21 Q. Who was this person, in what capacity was he

    22 there?

    23 A. I do not know. He simply would come into the

    24 cells.

    25 Q. Did the cells have locks?

  94. 1 A. You mean classic type of lock? Or you mean

    2 you have a sliding bar?

    3 Q. No. But was there a key?

    4 A. I cannot recall.

    5 Q. Mr. G, when you came to Kaonik, did you have

    6 an opportunity to have religious rights observed? Did

    7 anybody prevent you from doing that?

    8 A. The first and the second day -- the first two

    9 or three days, we did, but after that we went digging.

    10 Q. Excuse me, I did not understand, did you or

    11 did you not perform your religious rights, I did not

    12 understand you?

    13 A. Yes, yes, we did. Nobody prevented us.

    14 Q. Mr. G, you stated that two persons died when

    15 digging?

    16 A. Yes, they did.

    17 Q. Do you know their names?

    18 A. I know both of them, but I cannot recall

    19 their names.

    20 Q. Do you know under what circumstances they

    21 were killed, what happened to them?

    22 A. I said that it did not happen in my presence,

    23 or in my vicinity, so I cannot say how it happened.

    24 Q. Mr. G, you said that after your release from

    25 Kaonik, you returned to Busovaca to your family. How

  95. 1 long after that were you in Busovaca; that is, until

    2 when were you there?

    3 A. Until September. I think it was in September

    4 when I left Busovaca.

    5 Q. That means -- sorry, go ahead, I interrupted

    6 you.

    7 A. I do not know the exact month, I think it was

    8 in August or September.

    9 Q. When you said "released", do you mean when

    10 you left Busovaca?

    11 A. Yes, when I left Busovaca.

    12 Q. So that means that you actually were in

    13 Busovaca in April when the second conflict broke out?

    14 A. Yes, I was there all the time.

    15 Q. When this second conflict broke out, were you

    16 by any chance called to perform some duties?

    17 A. In what sense? In what sense "duties?

    18 Q. Were you called to the civilian protection?

    19 A. Yes, and we were taken to dig and they told

    20 us that we were civilian protection; we were no

    21 civilian protection.

    22 Q. Who assigned you to the civilian protection?

    23 A. The civilian protection that was with the HVO

    24 in Busovaca.

    25 Q. Did someone else -- was someone else also

  96. 1 assigned to the civilian protection among you?

    2 A. Not just anyone, but most people.

    3 Q. We are talking about persons now that were

    4 not at Kaonik; is that correct? You understand my

    5 question?

    6 A. We were not at Kaonik at the time. I had to

    7 come back from Kaonik.

    8 Q. That is right. You were at home?

    9 A. Yes. In other words, when I was in Kaonik,

    10 when I was released from the Kaonik camp, when I was in

    11 Busovaca, maybe I was not digging for 15 or 20 days.

    12 After that, they started forcing us to dig again all

    13 around Busovaca, not just me but everyone else who had

    14 come back to Busovaca.

    15 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, the Defence has no

    16 further questions.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: The Prosecutor, do you have

    18 any re-examination?

    19 MR. MARCHESIELLO: No further questions.

    20 JUDGE VOHRAH: Witness G, in

    21 examination-in-chief, you said after you were

    22 discharged from Kaonik camp the Muslims had difficulty

    23 attending the mosque for Bajram; what festival is that?

    24 A. It is a Muslim holiday. It is a Muslim

    25 religious holiday.

  97. 1 JUDGE VOHRAH: Thank you.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: We have no more questions

    3 for you, sir. Therefore, you have completed your

    4 testimony. We wish to thank you very much for coming.

    5 Could the usher pull down the curtains,

    6 please?

    7 (The witness withdrew)

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I think that it is now time

    9 for the break until 4.10 pm.

    10 (3.52 pm)

    11 (A short break)

    12 (4.10 pm)

    13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann?

    14 MR. MEDDEGODA: Your Honours, the next

    15 Prosecution witness is witness number 4 on the list of

    16 inventory of witnesses filed on 23rd February. In

    17 respect of this witness, too, your Honours, I am making

    18 an application on behalf of the witness for protective

    19 measures because, your Honours, I am seeking that

    20 pseudonym be assigned to that witness and also that he

    21 be granted distortion of his face during the course of

    22 his testimony.

    23 I believe Mr. Mikulicic has no objection to my

    24 application. He has been informed of this request and

    25 I believe he has no objection to this application, your

  98. 1 Honour.

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: In that case, please, have

    3 the witness brought in.

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 Good afternoon, sir. You are going to read

    6 the statement that the Registrar is going to give to

    7 you.

    8 A. I solemnly declare that I will speak the

    9 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you. You are going

    11 to answer the questions from Mr. Meddegoda, the

    12 Prosecutor.

    13 WITNESS H

    14 Examined by MR. MEDDEGODA

    15 Q. Your Honours, the witness will be known as

    16 "witness H".

    17 Witness H, I tender this sheet of paper to

    18 you on which a name is written and I ask you to read --

    19 to look at the sheet of paper and confirm whether the

    20 name that appears on it is your name or not.

    21 (Handed).

    22 A. Yes.

    23 MR. MEDDEGODA: Thank you. Your Honours,

    24 I tender that. Mr. Mikulicic may be shown that piece of

    25 paper and I tender that as an exhibit under seal, your

  99. 1 Honours.

    2 THE REGISTRAR: It is Exhibit 52.

    3 MR. MEDDEGODA: Witness, I take you back to

    4 the events in Busovaca in December of 1992 and January

    5 of 1993. Do you recall the tension that prevailed in

    6 the area during that time?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Would you describe to this court what kind of

    9 tension was prevalent during the period?

    10 A. Mostly the HVO forces were armed, while the

    11 Muslim population was almost without any weapons. So,

    12 the tensions rose during that period. They had sort of

    13 a command of sorts over us. They had the control over

    14 the entire village, not just my village, but the

    15 neighbouring village as well. We were, so to speak,

    16 surrounded.

    17 So, there was a high degree of tension and we

    18 did not know what to do.

    19 Q. Witness, you are a Bosniak by ethnicity?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. And also your religion is Islam?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Now, as far as your village is concerned --

    24 I do not want you to name the village from which you

    25 come -- as far as your village is concerned, could you

  100. 1 please tell this court the kind of tension that

    2 prevailed in your village in the early part of 1993?

    3 A. Well, when the conflict broke out, I was

    4 going to go and pick up my salary from the company

    5 where I worked, but I heard explosions. The tension

    6 was very high. We had very little weapons and so we

    7 did not have much of a chance to offer any resistance.

    8 We knew what was ahead. So a certain Mario showed up.

    9 I cannot recall his last name.

    10 He came and he said that we should surrender

    11 all the weapons, all the personal weapons, that it

    12 should be --

    13 Q. You said a certain Mario turned up; did he

    14 turn up alone or did he show up with others?

    15 A. The first time he came alone.

    16 Q. And do you know who this Mario is?

    17 A. He lived, his house was just below my

    18 village. That is, his house was in the direction of

    19 the neighbouring village.

    20 Q. Was he a soldier or a civilian?

    21 A. A soldier. He also had the HVO insignia.

    22 Q. On the occasion when he came there, was he --

    23 what was he wearing?

    24 A. He wore a camouflage uniform. He had a few

    25 rocket-propelled grenades and he had an ammunition kit

  101. 1 and he had an automatic rifle and I think it was

    2 a Kalashnikov.

    3 Q. Did he come to your village a second time?

    4 A. Yes, after the meeting at which we were to

    5 decide whether to surrender our weapons or not. We

    6 told him that he could come again and that he would

    7 receive the specific answer then.

    8 After the meeting, we collected about two or

    9 three rifles, some ammunition and I remember one

    10 rocket-propelled grenade was put down on the pavement

    11 of this road. That was after we decided to turn in

    12 weapons. After that I left and I went home, so I do

    13 not know when and where these weapons were taken.

    14 Q. So, when Mario, the HVO soldier, came for the

    15 first time, did he ask the villagers to turn over their

    16 weapons?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Were the other soldiers at or near the

    19 village when Mario came to the village?

    20 A. As I said, the village was surrounded and, in

    21 the village itself, at the beginning of the conflict

    22 there was a lot of soldiers, so that when I started to

    23 go home, I saw about 30 of them at an intersection.

    24 I noticed three of them had the HV insignia on them

    25 while the regular soldiers wore the HVO insignia.

  102. 1 MR. MEDDEGODA: Your Honours, may the witness

    2 be shown exhibit number 17? (Handed).

    3 Witness, could you please look at the exhibit

    4 on the projector and say to this court what insignia

    5 the soldiers were wearing on the occasion you saw this

    6 group at the entrance to the village?

    7 A. The local soldiers had the HVO insignia on,

    8 as I said, and it is this badge. (Indicating).

    9 The HVO insignia, as the locals called them,

    10 from Herzegovina, was this insignia.

    11 Q. You said some soldiers were HV insignia, now,

    12 which insignia is that, is it the insignia which is

    13 marked number 2 on the top left-hand corner of that

    14 exhibit?

    15 A. Yes, that is the HVO insignia and that was

    16 what the local military were wearing.

    17 Q. Three soldiers, who were wearing a different

    18 insignia -- is that right?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. That insignia was the one that has "number 1"

    21 on the top left-hand side of exhibit number 17 which is

    22 on the projector now?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Now, the villagers -- did you have a weapon

    25 with you at this time?

  103. 1 A. Yes, I did.

    2 Q. What kind of weapon did you have?

    3 A. It was a combined piece of weaponry. It was

    4 home-made and I did not surrender it, either. And it

    5 was also using the hunting rifle type of ammunition.

    6 Q. Were there others who did not surrender

    7 weapons from your village?

    8 A. It was only me and Jasmin Osmancevic, who had

    9 an automatic rifle, who was issued it in Zenica in the

    10 Public Security Service Office.

    11 Q. Why did he and you decide not to turn over

    12 your weapons?

    13 A. We did not believe in the safety that they

    14 had promised us.

    15 Q. When you say "they", who do you mean by the

    16 word "they"?

    17 A. Of course, it was the HVO soldiers and we

    18 could not believe them. It was later proven correct.

    19 Q. You said you went home after that; is that

    20 right?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Witness, I take you back to April 1993. Most

    23 specifically, 15th April 1993; do you recall this day?

    24 A. Yes, I do.

    25 Q. On that day, what did you do?

  104. 1 A. I went to the neighbouring village on

    2 business and I spent a little time there. I went to

    3 see a colleague of mine and we watched television and

    4 we saw on television the disappearance of Totic.

    5 I personally did not know him, but apparently he was

    6 some sort of a commander. I do not know.

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 When I got there I just had enough time to

    15 have a coffee, when somebody knocked on the door, my

    16 sister went out and told me that I had to go outside.

    17 Q. Did you go outside when your sister asked you

    18 to go?

    19 A. Yes, I went out and I saw five soldiers;

    20 three of them had a sock on their heads with the eyes

    21 and nose cut out, so I could not recognise them.

    22 However, two of them I knew personally, somebody called

    23 Predrag, who was an active duty policeman in peace time

    24 in Busovaca and Pero. I am not sure whether it was

    25 Susnjar or Plavsic, I do not recall exactly his

  105. 1 surname, he was a local man from my village.

    2 Q. What were they dressed in when they were at

    3 your door?

    4 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms with

    5 HVO insignia and automatic rifles.

    6 Q. And when you went out to talk to them, what

    7 happened?

    8 A. They held their guns at the ready and they

    9 said that we were going for an interview with

    10 Andrijasevic Ivica, who was the commander of the

    11 Croatian army in my village. I knew where they were

    12 taking me. I did not really believe them that we were

    13 going for an interview. We started off and reached

    14 a neighbouring house, where they picked up another two

    15 and let me not forget to mention my brother, they

    16 picked up my brother as well.

    17 Then they searched the other houses but they

    18 did not find the others because I know where they were

    19 in hiding. They boarded us on to a minibus, as I call

    20 it, a combi, a van, and they transferred us to the

    21 former JNA barracks at Kaonik.

    22 Q. What time was it when you reached the former

    23 JNA barracks at Kaonik?

    24 A. It was about 7.00 pm.

    25 Q. Could you tell this court what happened upon

  106. 1 reaching the former JNA barracks at Kaonik?

    2 A. As we entered the compound itself, we went to

    3 a hangar which must have been a warehouse, an

    4 ammunition depot of the former JNA.

    5 We got inside and someone called Anto Cakic

    6 told us to line up against the wall with our hands up

    7 and our fingers spread wide leaning against the wall

    8 and to stand there like that.

    9 They searched us, probably looking for

    10 weapons, but nobody had any. Afterwards they were

    11 looking for documents, any kind of insignia that people

    12 had, any marks or patches or stamps of the army, which

    13 had to be surrendered.

    14 The majority did what they were told. Some

    15 did not. When Anto Cakic said that they would search

    16 again and if they found anything at all linked to the

    17 army, that they would kill them on the spot.

    18 I saw some people actually eating up their

    19 military ID cards out of fear.

    20 Q. Did you have any identification papers with

    21 you?

    22 A. I did not have anything on me, except for

    23 a watch.

    24 Q. After that, could you say to this court what

    25 happened to you who were brought to the camp?

  107. 1 A. That same night, about 1.00 am, drivers who

    2 used to drive humanitarian aid to Tesanj and Zavidovici

    3 and those areas south of Zenica. I do not know exactly

    4 all the places they went to, there were seven of them

    5 who were temporarily working in Switzerland and who had

    6 come on holiday. An enormous amount of money was

    7 seized from them later when my watch was taken as

    8 well.

    9 The next day, the local people from the

    10 neighbouring village were brought in. We were allowed

    11 to catch a breath of fresh air in front of the hangar.

    12 There were five or six guards there, whom I did not

    13 know at the time, but they could be seen.

    14 Q. When you were brought to the hangar, and

    15 when -- when you were in the hangar and when the

    16 villagers -- the other villagers were a neighbouring

    17 village were brought to the hangar, did you see

    18 anything specific happen inside the hangar building?

    19 A. In the hangar, that morning nothing was

    20 happening because, as I said, we were outside, we were

    21 taken outside. But I could see when a car arrived,

    22 I could not see what make it was, they took us inside

    23 immediately. They told us to go into the hangar. That

    24 was when I saw Dario Kordic arrive because I knew him

    25 personally. He used to work in the same company that

  108. 1 I worked for.

    2 Whenever people came, we were taken back

    3 inside. Probably so as not to see who they were and

    4 why they had come.

    5 Q. The night you were brought into the camp, did

    6 you see who -- was there occasion to see the warden of

    7 the camp or the head of the camp?

    8 A. Yes. He introduced himself as

    9 Zlatko Aleksovski, who said that he was the director of

    10 the prison, though I do not think that he can be the

    11 director in a prison. He could be that if it was

    12 a civilian prison but this was a military prison and

    13 a concentration camp. Therefore, for me he was

    14 a commander of all the military that were within the

    15 barracks compound.

    16 Q. What was he wearing on the occasion you saw

    17 him?

    18 A. He was in civilian clothes but sometimes he

    19 also wore a camouflage uniform.

    20 Q. That night when you saw him, what was he

    21 wearing?

    22 A. Civilian clothes.

    23 Q. You said there were villagers brought and you

    24 and the other detainees were taken out of the hangar?

    25 A. Yes.

  109. 1 Q. What happened after you were taken out of the

    2 hangar?

    3 A. As I just said, we were just outside.

    4 Afterwards we were taken back inside the hangar. After

    5 that, most probably a commander from the Bare locality

    6 arrived asking for a number of men to dig trenches and

    7 canals. He selected about 30 people. They loaded us

    8 on to a large truck, make rubber, without a canvas

    9 cover, without seats and we were driven to this

    10 location at Bare in front of the elementary school

    11 there, the primary school.

    12 There were -- we were given a piece -- a loaf

    13 of bread to four of us and about 400 grammes of

    14 salami. Then we were taken to the spot where we were

    15 told we would be digging.

    16 About halfway there, the shooting started.

    17 We started to run for shelter but they prevented us.

    18 They said: "Do not run, because your people will not

    19 kill you", but it was not our people who were

    20 shooting.

    21 When we reached the place where the shooting

    22 was coming from, there was a large group of their

    23 soldiers there under arms and with HVO insignia. At

    24 that time, Zlatagic Ramo was wounded, Sunularpasic --

    25 Ramo was hit in the neck and Salih was grazed near the

  110. 1 head.

    2 They said that they would transport them to

    3 the Croatian hospital at Nova Bila. We went back to

    4 the school, then a civilian vehicle, I think it was

    5 a Golf, I do not remember exactly, I know it was

    6 a small vehicle, they took them away and from then on

    7 we left all trace of them.

    8 As I have just said, on the spot where the

    9 soldiers were, from where they shot at us, we were

    10 moved from that spot to a location in the direction of

    11 Kovacevac, where we were supposed to dig trenches, so

    12 that I knew where the fire came from and I knew from

    13 personal experience where the firing came because they

    14 were firing directly into our faces.

    15 When we reached that spot, we turned right

    16 towards Kovacevac.

    17 Q. Witness, before you described what happened

    18 in Kovacevac, could you tell me after the meal you had

    19 with bread, you said there was a shooting. Now, you

    20 were being taken to the spot where you had to dig

    21 trenches; is that right?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. How were you taken to that spot?

    24 A. They had their guns on the ready, there were

    25 three or four soldiers and they took us to the spot

  111. 1 where we had to work.

    2 Q. And you were taken by foot to that spot?

    3 A. Yes, we were transported by car as far as the

    4 school, and from the school we went on foot.

    5 Q. Now, how far had you and the group gone when

    6 the shooting took place?

    7 A. I do not know how many metres it was, but

    8 I know we came to a kind of plateau, an open space.

    9 Q. And you said to this court that two persons

    10 sustained injuries as a result of the shooting?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Now, you also said that you know who fired at

    13 the group of detainees who were taken for trench

    14 digging?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. From which direction did the fire come on

    17 this occasion?

    18 A. As I said, it came from the direction in

    19 which we were heading. When we came to the place from

    20 where the fire had come, I said that we saw this group

    21 of soldiers. 15 or 20 of their HVO soldiers were

    22 there. Then cursing and insults started and from there

    23 we were taken off towards the village of Kovacevac,

    24 that is from the place where we came across the

    25 soldiers to the right. If it had been our people who

  112. 1 had fired, then the people who had been wounded would

    2 have been hit on the right-hand side.

    3 Q. Who do you mean by "our people who had

    4 fired"?

    5 A. Since I am of Muslim religion, it was the

    6 army. Even though there were some Croats in the army

    7 but I am referring to the army, the BiH army.

    8 Q. What happened at Kovacevac village?

    9 A. We dug there, we were digging trenches and

    10 canals there. After a time, we were transferred to

    11 another location, just below the village of Rovna.

    12 Q. For how long did you have to dig in Kovacevac

    13 village?

    14 A. Well, about half a day.

    15 Q. From there, where were you taken to?

    16 A. They took us just below the village of Rovna

    17 where I was told to dig a dug-out. That is when I saw

    18 a soldier with an HV patch. He was wearing

    19 a camouflage uniform and was armed with an automatic

    20 rifle.

    21 While digging, when I asked for water, he hit

    22 me with his rifle butt and told me to go on digging.

    23 Q. You said the soldier was wearing an HV patch?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. If you look at exhibit number 17, which is

  113. 1 still on the projector, which patch was that soldier

    2 wearing at the time you asked for water and he kicked

    3 you?

    4 A. It is the emblem under "number 1".

    5 Q. When you asked for water, the soldier who was

    6 wearing this patch hit you with the rifle and ordered

    7 you to continue digging?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. For how long did you have to dig?

    10 A. We stayed until about 9.00/9.30 in the

    11 evening. Then we were taken back to the barracks.

    12 Q. How were you taken back to the barracks?

    13 A. On foot, as far as the school at Bare. Then

    14 from Bare in the same vehicle.

    15 Q. Now, there were other occasions on which you

    16 were taken out of the camp for trench digging?

    17 A. Yes. I could list those occasions.

    18 Q. Where were those places you were taken to?

    19 A. Kula, Podjele, Carica, Loncari, Kuber, which

    20 is just above the village of Jelinak. Once we also

    21 went to a location called Ravan, where we dug graves.

    22 MR. MEDDEGODA: Your Honours, may I have your

    23 permission to show to the witness an excerpt of

    24 Exhibit 4? There are copies for your Honours, for the

    25 court and also for Mr. Mikulicic. (Handed).

  114. 1 Could you please place that map on the

    2 projector, usher?

    3 Witness, there is a map on the projector.

    4 Could you please look at that map and, using a

    5 highlighter, circle on that map the places where you

    6 were taken to for trench digging and also the place

    7 where you were taken to dig graves. When marking,

    8 could you please say which place you are marking and

    9 could you circle that place and also --

    10 A. (Witness marked map). Carica.

    11 Q. Could you place the letter "A" outside that

    12 circle, witness?

    13 A. (Witness marked map) Ravan.

    14 Q. Would you place the letter "B" outside the

    15 circle. In Carica, what did you have to do?

    16 A. We were digging also trenches and dug-outs.

    17 Q. And in Ravan?

    18 A. As I said, we dug graves there.

    19 Q. Thank you.

    20 A. (Witness marked map). Kula.

    21 Q. Would you mark that with a "C"?

    22 A. (Witness marked map). Kovacevac.

    23 Q. Could you circle that area and mark it with

    24 the letter "D"?

    25 A. (Witness marked map). Bare.

  115. 1 Q. That could be circled and marked with the

    2 letter "E", witness.

    3 A. (Witness marked map). Podjele.

    4 Q. Could that be marked "F"?

    5 A. (Witness marked map). Loncari.

    6 Q. That will be marked with the letter "G".

    7 A. (Witness marked map). This is the area of

    8 Kuber.

    9 Q. Could you circle that area and mark it with

    10 the letter "H"?

    11 A. (Witness marked map).

    12 Q. Thank you. Witness, after you came back from

    13 trench digging in Kula, which building in the camp were

    14 you brought back to?

    15 A. We were brought back to cells below the

    16 hangar. Actually, this was probably another hangar,

    17 but it was adapted into cells.

    18 Q. Do you recall which cell you were put into

    19 after you were brought back?

    20 A. Yes, cell number 16.

    21 MR. MEDDEGODA: Your Honours, may I have your

    22 Honours' permission to show the witness an aerial

    23 photograph of the camp? It has already been tendered

    24 into evidence, your Honours. There are copies for your

    25 Honours and a copy for Mr. Mikulicic. (Handed).

  116. 1 Witness, could you look at the exhibit on the

    2 projector and say to which building you were first

    3 brought into when you arrived at the camp on the night

    4 of the 15th April?

    5 A. That is the building. (Indicating on

    6 photograph).

    7 Q. That was the hangar building to which you

    8 were brought into?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Could you, please, using the highlighter,

    11 could you circle that building and mark that building

    12 with the letter "A"?

    13 A. (Indicating on photograph).

    14 Q. A while ago you said that you were

    15 transferred to cell number 16 in another building.

    16 Could you recognise that building, the second building,

    17 on this photograph?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Which building is that?

    20 A. That one. (Indicating on photograph).

    21 Q. Would you please circle that building and

    22 mark it with the letter "B"?

    23 A. (Indicating on photograph).

    24 MR. MEDDEGODA: Thank you.

    25 I tender that into evidence, your Honours.

  117. 1 THE REGISTRAR: It is exhibit number 54.

    2 MR. MEDDEGODA: Now, witness, in cell

    3 number 16, were there other prisoners detained as well?

    4 A. Yes, we were about nine.

    5 Q. Could you, please, describe to this court the

    6 size of the cell and the conditions within that cell?

    7 A. It measured somewhere 2 by 3. I do not know

    8 the exact measurements, we never measured it. I know

    9 it was small. Most of them were like that. The

    10 conditions were very poor. There was a hallway in the

    11 cell, itself that was very, very small. The cots were

    12 made wall to wall. It was all bunched together and

    13 some hay was thrown on top of it and that is where we

    14 slept.

    15 Q. Did you have heating inside the cell?

    16 A. No, not in the cell. There was a stove of

    17 sorts in the hallway. Something that was nothing

    18 really.

    19 Q. Do you have any electric light in the cell?

    20 A. In my cell, as well as all the other cells

    21 which were on my side, there was no lighting. The only

    22 light came from -- was coming through the opening which

    23 was barred. When the light was turned off, some light,

    24 some reflection would come to the cell number 16, but

    25 it was very dim.

  118. 1 Q. Witness, going back to the hangar in which

    2 you were first detained, would you describe to this

    3 court the conditions in the hangar building, the

    4 building which you marked with the letter "A"?

    5 A. The conditions were also bad. When we first

    6 arrived it was just concrete floor. I do not know how

    7 long we spent on that floor and then later there is

    8 transportation pallets were brought in and several of

    9 them were brought in. Some people were able to sit

    10 down. Maybe a few people were able to lie down to rest

    11 a little bit, and the rest would go on standing and

    12 then people were taking turns.

    13 Q. Were there toilet facilities in the hangar

    14 building?

    15 A. In the hangar itself, there was no toilet.

    16 The toilet that was used at first was in another

    17 building. Later a latrine was made outside of the

    18 hangar.

    19 MR. MEDDEGODA: Your Honours, at this stage

    20 may we go into private session, your Honours, for the

    21 reason that this witness would divulge details which

    22 may reveal the identity of the witness. For that

    23 reason I ask your Honours to go into private session.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: We are going to have

    25 a private session now. You can continue,

  119. 1 Mr. Prosecutor.

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    11 (In open session)

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: We can continue now.

    13 MR. MEDDEGODA: Witness, do you recall your

    14 release from prison?

    15 A. Before the release, we were taken by Ante

    16 Cakic to cut grass. I think it was his property, I am

    17 not sure. He told us that there would be an exchange.

    18 We at first did not believe it because we missed

    19 several of them -- we had missed several of them

    20 before.

    21 Then when we were taken back to the camp

    22 I was sort of dozing off. I only heard some shouts, in

    23 fact it was some people were being called out and

    24 somebody said: "Whoever I call out should step outside"

    25 and all the cells were already unlocked.

  126. 1 My name was called out, I stepped outside and

    2 the saw that the International Red Cross

    3 representatives were there and the interpreter said

    4 that we were going to be exchanged.

    5 I noted when we were about to leave, Dzemo

    6 came over and told us, we were about five or six,

    7 myself included, he told us to pass a message on around

    8 Zenica that Dzemo was the biggest Ustasha of them all.

    9 Q. Witness, together with you, do you know how

    10 many other people were released with you that day?

    11 A. We were not many of us. Some people were

    12 released into some kind of a house arrest in Skradno.

    13 Some were ill. Some had been exchanged before, so we

    14 were not many, maybe 30. I do not know the exact

    15 number.

    16 Q. Do you know the date?

    17 A. You mean do I --

    18 Q. Do you know the date on which you were

    19 released?

    20 A. 19th June 1993.

    21 Q. After your release, where did you go to?

    22 A. I just wanted to add that before this, some

    23 people stayed behind in the camp, like the man from

    24 Syria called Mohamed. Myself and the other detainees

    25 were transferred to Zenica.

  127. 1 Q. Now, after you were released, did you have

    2 occasion to see a doctor?

    3 A. When we were brought to Zenica, the medical

    4 care was already provided, so a physician saw me as

    5 soon as I got off the bus and he asked me whether I had

    6 any complaints. Of course, I knew I did, but I wanted

    7 to see my parents and the rest of my family, even

    8 though I was not sure where all of them were.

    9 Later my brother came and found me there. He

    10 had heard that an exchange was going to take place.

    11 Q. Did you suffer as a result of those beatings

    12 whilst in the camp?

    13 A. Yes. I have -- I suffer certain

    14 consequences, mostly my back and my two teeth were

    15 broken and you may have noticed that here I -- my

    16 teeth, some already were damaged before, but in the

    17 camp I got further damage.

    18 MR. MEDDEGODA: I have no further questions,

    19 your Honour.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, I should like

    21 to know whether you have questions to put to the

    22 witness and, if so, how much time do you think you

    23 need, as it is almost 5.30 now?

    24 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, the Defence has

    25 a number of questions to ask of this witness, so we

  128. 1 would suggest that we close for the day and that we be

    2 allowed to ask our questions tomorrow, in continuity.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much,

    4 Mr. Mikulicic.

    5 We are going to adjourn for today,

    6 therefore. We meet again here tomorrow. Thank you for

    7 today. Until tomorrow.

    8 (5.28 pm)

    9 (The hearing adjourned until 10.00 am

    10 on Tuesday, 3rd March 1998)