Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1543

          1                           Thursday, 26 March 1998

          2            (10.25am)

          3                (The accused entered court)

          4            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Good morning, ladies and

          5  gentlemen.  Good morning to the interpreters and to the

          6  technical booth.  Are you all ready to start?  Thank

          7  you.

          8            Excuse me for this delay, but you know all

          9  too well the reasons for it, so we will try and maybe

         10  remedy that.  We are going to continue with yesterday's

         11  witness, are we?

         12            MR. NIEMANN:    Yes.

         13            MR. MEDDEGODA:    Yes, your Honours, we have

         14  the overnight witness who will be called to testify

         15  this morning.

         16            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   In that case, I will ask

         17  the Registrar to lower the blinds so that the witness

         18  can be shown in.

         19            Mr. Registrar, could you please call the

         20  case?

         21            THE REGISTRAR:    Case IT-95-14-1T, the

         22  Prosecutor against Zlatko Aleksovski.

         23            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Mr. Niemann, could you

         24  please give us the appearances?

         25            MR. NIEMANN:    My name is Niemann.  I appear

Page 1544

          1  with my colleagues, Mr. Meddegoda and Ms. Sutherland and

          2  Ms. Erasmus for the Prosecution.

          3            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Thank you.  And the

          4  Defence, please.

          5            MR. MIKULICIC:    Good morning, your Honours.

          6  My name is Goran Mikulicic; along with my colleague

          7  Joka, we represent the accused, thank you.

          8                (The witness entered court)

          9            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Good morning, witness.

         10  Can you hear me well?

         11       A.   Yes, I can hear you well.

         12            JUDGE RODRIGUES:  We are now going to

         13  continue to listen to your testimony.  Yesterday you

         14  made a solemn declaration that you will speak the

         15  truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  Are

         16  you prepared to do the same thing today?

         17       A.   Yes, that is correct, the whole truth and

         18  nothing but the truth, that is correct.

         19            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Mr. Meddegoda, please

         20  proceed.

         21                   WITNESS O (continued)

         22            Examined by MR. MEDDEGODA (continued)

         23       Q.   Good morning, Witness O.

         24       A.   Good morning.

         25       Q.   When we adjourned last afternoon, you stated

Page 1545

          1  in evidence that you were arrested and brought to the

          2  Kaonik camp?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   And you also said that you were brought to a

          5  hangar building in that camp?

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   Could you tell this court what happened upon

          8  arrival in the hangar building?

          9       A.   When we were brought to the hangar building,

         10  we first got off the buses and entered the hangars,

         11  there were pallets that were arranged on the floor.  We

         12  were quite a few in there.  Then we were ordered to

         13  take everything out of our pockets, and we had to turn

         14  around facing the wall with our hands up.  We were

         15  standing on these pallets.  After a while, they

         16  searched us to assure themselves that we did not have

         17  any objects like knives or such in our pockets.

         18       Q.   By whom were you searched in the hangar

         19  building?

         20       A.   These were some HVO soldiers.  They searched

         21  us.  I do not know them.

         22       Q.   How did you know they were HVO soldiers?

         23       A.   They had camouflage uniforms on, and the HVO

         24  insignia.

         25       Q.   Were any camp officials present at the time

Page 1546

          1  you were brought to the hangar?

          2       A.   Mr. Aleksovski was present.

          3       Q.   And do you remember what Mr. Aleksovski was

          4  wearing at that time?

          5       A.   I think he was also wearing a camouflage

          6  uniform.  He told us not to be afraid, that there was

          7  nothing to be afraid of, that we were safe here, that

          8  nothing would happen to us, and things proceeded in

          9  that way.

         10       Q.   Do you remember what happened the next day?

         11       A.   The next day, we were called out, so that

         12  night we had spent there, then we were called out and

         13  we were taken to be used as human shields -- 20 of us

         14  were hauled out, 15 of us were tied up and five were

         15  returned to the hangar.  A bus arrived.  We were tied

         16  up, hands behind our backs, and Mr. Aleksovski was

         17  there.

         18            An HVO soldier tied us up -- the first one

         19  who came refused to do this, and then the second one

         20  came and tied us up.  There was a white rope which he

         21  pulled out.  He ordered us to turn around facing the

         22  wall of the hangar and then he tied us five together.

         23  After we were tied up, we were ordered to board the

         24  bus.  When we climbed on to the bus, then the order was

         25  issued to drive in the direction that we were supposed

Page 1547

          1  to go to, that is, to go to Skradno.

          2            The bus brought us near to the bridge at

          3  Skradno and to the Vatrostalna factory.  It could not

          4  go any further, so we got off the bus there, and we

          5  were lined up.

          6       Q.   What happened after you got off the bus and

          7  you were lined up?

          8       A.   Then they called on the villagers to

          9  surrender, using the loud speaker, and we were there

         10  for about half an hour and apparently the village

         11  surrendered.  Then we were again boarded on to the bus,

         12  still tied up, and we went back to Kaonik.  When --

         13            MR. MEDDEGODA:  Now, witness, before you

         14  proceed any further, your Honours, may I ask the usher

         15  to show to the witness an aerial photograph, of which

         16  there are copies for your Honours and for Mr. Mikulicic.

         17            THE REGISTRAR:    This is number 94.

         18            (Handed).

         19            MR. MEDDEGODA:    Witness, could you please

         20  carefully look at the aerial photograph on the ELMO?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   And tell this court the point to which you

         23  were taken from the camp -- the point near the bridge

         24  that you spoke of?

         25       A.   This is the place where we crossed the Kozica

Page 1548

          1  River.

          2       Q.   Could you please point out the bridge?

          3       A.   Here (indicates).  This is the bridge.  This

          4  is before the Vatrostalna factory.  You cross here

          5  (indicating) to Sendolin Kuce, and that is where we

          6  stopped.

          7            MR. MEDDEGODA:  Could you, using the

          8  highlighter behind you, could you mark the bridge at

          9  which you had to get off the bus.  I want you to mark

         10  the bridge first, witness.

         11            JUDGE VOHRAH:    Ask him to circle.

         12            MR. MEDDEGODA:    Could you circle the bridge

         13  that you spoke of in your testimony, witness?

         14       A.   (Witness marked photograph).

         15       Q.   That is the bridge.  Using a different

         16  coloured marker, could you please mark the place at

         17  which you and the others were forced to stand?

         18       A.   (Witness marked photograph).

         19       Q.   In which direction were you standing?

         20       A.   Facing the village -- we were facing the

         21  village.

         22       Q.   Which village was that?

         23       A.   It was the village of Skradno.

         24       Q.   You said you were there for about half an

         25  hour, as far as you remember?

Page 1549

          1       A.   Yes, maybe 40 minutes -- no more than one

          2  hour.

          3       Q.   What happened thereafter?

          4       A.   When those people surrendered, this whole

          5  thing was over, and then we boarded the bus again and

          6  we went towards Kaonik.  At Kaonik, in front of the

          7  Tisovac store, which was a supermarket of sorts, the

          8  bus turned around.  We got off and we went to Strane,

          9  again as human shields.

         10       Q.   Witness, could you, again looking at the same

         11  photograph that is before you, which is Exhibit P94,

         12  could you point out the place at which you got off the

         13  bus and walked towards Strane you said?

         14       A.   Here is the spot where we got off -- this is

         15  where the store was (indicating) and there is also some

         16  kind of a warehouse there.

         17       Q.   Could you please circle that spot using a

         18  highlighter that is besides you?

         19       A.   Yes, I can -- red or blue?

         20       Q.   Whatever colour that is there -- blue,

         21  please, yes.

         22       A.   (Witness marked photograph).

         23       Q.   You got off the bus at the point and you said

         24  this is where the shop is?

         25       A.   This is where we got off the bus, yes.

Page 1550

          1       Q.   What happened after you got off the bus?

          2       A.   We were still tied up and the HVO soldiers

          3  took us to the intersection to Podjele and towards the

          4  old rail road station and post office and at this

          5  intersection, at this junction, we were also made to

          6  stand, lined up, and facing the village of Strane.

          7       Q.   Could you please, using the red coloured pen,

          8  mark the point at which you and the others were forced

          9  to stand facing the village of Strane?

         10       A.   (Witness marked photograph).

         11       Q.   What happened when you were standing there

         12  facing Strane?

         13       A.   We stood there for quite a while.  A

         14  colleague of ours was sent there to ask them to

         15  surrender.  As he was walking, they shot after him and

         16  so he ducked into cover, and the HVO soldiers also shot

         17  over our heads and we were ordered not to bend.  I do

         18  not know who it was, but somebody from the forest off

         19  to the side was shooting, also, at us.  There was a

         20  young man who had a sniper rifle and he was also

         21  shooting in the direction of the village of Strane.

         22       Q.   Do you know what happened at the village of

         23  Strane?

         24       A.   After a while, when we were pulled back,

         25  I learned -- we heard, that is, from the HVO soldiers,

Page 1551

          1  that the village also surrendered.

          2       Q.   How long were you standing as a human shield

          3  facing the village of Strane?

          4       A.   I cannot remember any more -- it could have

          5  been one hour or two -- at this point, I was only

          6  concerned whether I was going to survive or not,

          7  because the shooting started from behind us and then

          8  they also were shooting from the other side and we were

          9  specifically ordered not to bend, because, if we did

         10  bend, if we did duck, then we would be shot.

         11       Q.   Thereafter, you were returned to the Kaonik

         12  camp, were you?

         13       A.   Yes, we were returned on foot to the camp,

         14  because the distance is about a kilometre, maybe 0.8

         15  kilometres to the hangar.

         16       Q.   Do you remember being taken anywhere else the

         17  next day, the following day?

         18       A.   Yes, the next day, in the morning, some time

         19  around 10, 10.30, I was taken to Merdani.  This was the

         20  third time that I was taken as a human shield.

         21       Q.   On this occasion, how many of you were taken

         22  to Merdani?

         23       A.   Again, 15 persons were taken to Merdani.

         24       Q.   And before being taken, could you describe

         25  what happened to the prisoners before being taken?

Page 1552

          1  Were you tied --

          2       A.   Oh, yes, yes, we were tied up the same way,

          3  just as the first and second time when I was used as a

          4  human shield -- both those locations, so this was the

          5  third time, but it was on the second day.  We were also

          6  tied up, also hands behind our backs, also escorted by

          7  the HVO soldiers.  We boarded the bus.  The bus brought

          8  us from Kaonik to Podjele.  That is where we got off

          9  and the bus went back, because the bus could not

         10  proceed any further.  The road was bad and, also, the

         11  bridge was not strong enough to support the bus, so, at

         12  the bridge, we were abused, we were -- they cursed us,

         13  they threatened to throw us into the Kozica River, and

         14  then we proceeded from there.  They still verbally

         15  abused us and cursed us, as they were taking us towards

         16  Merdani.

         17            From this junction towards Podjele, they

         18  proceeded for maybe another 300 metres further and then

         19  they lined us up facing the village of Merdani.  They

         20  kept us there for about an hour, an hour and a half.

         21  Merdani refused to surrender and then they took us

         22  back.  We went back on foot, all the way to the hangar,

         23  and, when we got there, we were already assigned for

         24  digging, this forest digging.  However, I was taken to

         25  a cell.  I was not taken back to the hangar.  I saw

Page 1553

          1  that my colleagues, my fellow inmates, with whom I was

          2  in the hangar were no longer there.  I later found they

          3  were taken to dig, and this is what then proceeded --

          4  this scenario sort of was then repeated daily.

          5            MR. MEDDEGODA:  May I give you an aerial

          6  photograph which I may wish to show you.

          7            Your Honours, may the usher be asked to place

          8  this photograph on the ELMO with copies to your Honours

          9  and to Mr. Mikulicic?

         10            (Handed).

         11            THE REGISTRAR:    This is document number 95.

         12            MR. MEDDEGODA:    Witness, could you carefully

         13  look at Exhibit 95 and, on that exhibit or that

         14  photograph, could you, using the pointer, point to the

         15  place where you were taken by bus -- where you had to

         16  get off the bus?

         17       A.   I could not orient myself.  This is where the

         18  bus brought us -- shall I mark it?

         19       Q.   Yes, please?

         20       A.   Shall I mark it?

         21       Q.   Yes, please, you may proceed to mark the

         22  place that the bus brought you to.

         23       A.   (Witness marked photograph).

         24       Q.   And from there you and the others had to get

         25  off the bus?

Page 1554

          1       A.   Yes.

          2       Q.   What happened after you got off the bus?

          3       A.   Then we came -- then we crossed the bridge

          4  and then that is where they were provoking us -- they

          5  verbally abused us, there were obscenities spoken

          6  there, and then we started towards Podjele.

          7       Q.   Could you mark the place at which you and the

          8  others were forced to stand facing the village?

          9       A.   We who were tied up and lined up as human

         10  shields facing the village?

         11       Q.   Yes, please.  You may use a different colour

         12  marker, witness.

         13       A.   (Witness marked photograph).

         14       Q.   On that occasion, you were facing the village

         15  of Merdani, as you said?

         16       A.   Yes, yes, facing the village of Merdani.

         17       Q.   Witness, thereafter you said you were

         18  returned to the camp?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   And you also said a while ago that thereafter

         21  you were taken to dig trenches?

         22       A.   Yes.

         23       Q.   Do you remember where you were taken to to

         24  dig trenches?

         25       A.   To Kula, towards -- in the direction of

Page 1555

          1  Busovaca and I was taken to Kula only once.  I do not

          2  know why.  After that, I was only in the cells -- I was

          3  never taken to dig again after that.  I do not know

          4  why.  I was beaten there by some soldier -- I do not

          5  know who it was -- and he beat me with a shovel over my

          6  back.  In the evening, both myself and my fellow

          7  inmates were returned on a truck of the RAV make and

          8  after that we were brought back to the camp.  After

          9  that I was never taken to dig again -- my fellow

         10  inmates were, but I myself was not.

         11       Q.   Did you continue to be detained in the cell

         12  throughout your stay in the camp from the time you were

         13  transferred to the cell building?

         14       A.   Yes, these 13 days until I was exchanged

         15  I spent there and my fellow inmates were changing,

         16  depending on who was taken to work, and the number also

         17  varied from 10, 15, to 20 and even 30 -- in a very

         18  small and confined space.  When the inmate prisoners

         19  were coming back from this forced labour, they would

         20  receive one portion of food for two persons and they

         21  were exhausted, they were tired.  Also, there were no

         22  hygienic conditions -- you could not wash, you could

         23  not shave.

         24            There was one stove in the building.  There

         25  was a toilet, which was to the left of Mr. Aleksovski's

Page 1556

          1  office and this is how we were surviving that period of

          2  time, that is, the people who transferred from the

          3  hangar to the cells until we were exchanged.

          4            We could hear noises and shouts and people

          5  were being beaten -- those who were going to the

          6  front-lines and people were beaten up in the camp.

          7  Then, from the camp, I went back to Busovaca and

          8  proceeded from there.

          9       Q.   That was after you were exchanged in

         10  February?

         11       A.   Yes.

         12       Q.   And you were exchanged on 8 February 1993?

         13       A.   Yes, on the 8th.

         14       Q.   Witness, you remember earlier on you said

         15  when you arrived in the hangar in Kaonik you were met

         16  by Mr. Aleksovski?

         17       A.   Yes.

         18       Q.   Did you know Mr. Aleksovski from before?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   How did you know him?

         21       A.   I knew him from Zenica, from the corrections

         22  centre there -- I knew he worked there and also he was

         23  in Vatrostalna for a while.  He commuted and then later

         24  he got an apartment in Busovaca, so that is how I knew

         25  him.

Page 1557

          1            MR. MEDDEGODA:  I tender Exhibits 93, 94 and

          2  95.  I have no further questions from this witness --

          3  93 was the document I tendered yesterday under seal,

          4  your Honours, and this morning I tendered two

          5  documents, 94 and 95.

          6            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Yes.  They are going to be

          7  tendered and admitted.  Do you have any further

          8  questions?

          9            MR. MEDDEGODA:    No, I have no further

         10  questions in chief.

         11            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Thank you very much.  In

         12  that case, Mr. Mikulicic, do you have questions for this

         13  witness, or Mr. Joka?

         14                Cross-examined by MR. JOKA

         15       Q.   May it please the court, Witness O, I would

         16  like to ask a few questions.  Today, you told this

         17  Trial Chamber that you were used on two occasions as a

         18  human shield.

         19       A.   Not the two occasions -- on two different

         20  days, the first day was at Skradno and a different day

         21  at Merdani.

         22       Q.   You said you had information, or maybe I did

         23  not understand you well, but the village had

         24  surrendered; in that other case the village had not

         25  surrendered.  Did you see Skradno and Strane surrender

Page 1558

          1  or did you only hear about it?

          2       A.   No, we knew where the trenches were where we

          3  were digging from the other inmates.  I know the

          4  village did not surrender.

          5       Q.   I asked you about Skradno?

          6       A.   It surrendered on that very day.

          7       Q.   Did you see it?

          8       A.   Yes, because they called them with a loud

          9  speaker.

         10       Q.   Who did it?

         11       A.   The person who brought us.

         12       Q.   How did you see people?

         13       A.   There were people that came down from the

         14  village of Skradno.

         15       Q.   And how about the village of Strane?

         16       A.   They came, I do not know whether they

         17  surrendered but they came from the forest.

         18       Q.   And Merdani did not surrender?

         19       A.   No, Merdani did not surrender, because I know

         20  it from other people who were there digging and they

         21  told me that Merdani had not surrendered.

         22       Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber how

         23  far you were from the village of Skradno while you were

         24  there -- how far away from you in metres, if you can

         25  say?

Page 1559

          1       A.   Do you mean from the Croat houses?

          2            MR. JOKA:  No, no --

          3            THE INTERPRETER:  May the counsel be advised

          4  to slow down the witness, please?

          5       A.   Where the Muslim houses were or the Croat

          6  houses.

          7            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Witness O, excuse me to

          8  interrupt you; could you please speak slowly, because,

          9  as you know, there are interpreters who have to

         10  translate.  They cannot follow you if you speak too

         11  quickly.  Thank you.

         12            MR. JOKA:  The first were Croat houses?

         13       A.   Yes, they were first Croat houses.

         14       Q.   Could you tell me how far away you were from

         15  the Croat houses?

         16       A.   150 metres.

         17       Q.   And they came, the Muslim houses?

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   How far were you from the Muslim houses?

         20       A.   500 metres, the first Muslim houses were 500

         21  metres away.

         22       Q.   Let us go to the village of Strane -- first

         23  you spoke of Skradno so Strane -- how far you were from

         24  the village of Strane?

         25       A.   You know what, from the place where we were,

Page 1560

          1  there is the road Travnik/Zenica.

          2       Q.   You can tell us in metres?

          3       A.   You cannot see the village completely,

          4  because you can see the woods and there is the old

          5  school that can be seen and a couple of Muslim houses.

          6       Q.   So the woods separated you from the village?

          7       A.   Yes, it was on the right-hand side from us.

          8       Q.   Merdani, how far away were you from that

          9  village?

         10       A.   About 800 metres or 1 kilometre away.

         11       Q.   Do you know whether, in Skradno, there were

         12  any BiH army members?

         13       A.   No.

         14       Q.   Do you know that at Strane there were any

         15  members of the BiH army?

         16       A.   No.

         17       Q.   At Merdani?

         18  (redacted)

         19  (redacted)

         20  (redacted)

         21       Q.   Were there BiH army members there or not?

         22       A.   I do not know.

         23       Q.   Could you please tell us, were you registered

         24  by an international organisation while you were at

         25  Kaonik?

Page 1561

          1       A.   Yes, I was registered by the Red Cross.

          2  I have got a document about it.

          3       Q.   When, how many days after?

          4       A.   Some six or seven days afterwards.

          5  Mr. Aleksovski was present when we were registered.

          6       Q.   Tell me whether anybody from your family --

          7  but please do not mention any names -- whether anybody

          8  was also deprived of liberty the same time you were?

          9       A.   All my family.

         10       Q.   Even your father?

         11       A.   Yes.

         12       Q.   Was he also brought there?

         13       A.   Yes, but he was returned back home, because

         14  he was an elderly man and other older people were also

         15  returned.

         16       Q.   Was it the same day?

         17       A.   No, but, your Honours, I only speak the

         18  truth.  I do not need to tell any lies, so I only say

         19  what is true.

         20       Q.   You said that you knew Mr. Aleksovski from

         21  before?

         22       A.   Yes, I knew him.

         23       Q.   You mentioned the correction centre in

         24  Zenica?

         25       A.   Yes, I knew from those people who said that

Page 1562

          1  he was at the corrections centre.

          2       Q.   Did you have anything to do with the

          3  corrections centre in Zenica?

          4       A.   No, never.

          5       Q.   You mentioned that the accused was given an

          6  apartment in Busovaca?

          7       A.   After the corrections centre when I went to

          8  Busovaca -- maybe Mr. Aleksovski does not remember -- we

          9  even had an occasion when we sat down in a cafe

         10  together.

         11       Q.   You heard something about his apartment?

         12       A.   Yes, because I heard something -- I would see

         13  him at Busovaca.

         14       Q.   You concluded he was there?

         15       A.   Yes, that was my conclusion.  On some

         16  occasions we sat down in a cafe together.

         17       Q.   Witness O, could you please tell me, before

         18  the breakout of the conflict, what was your

         19  relationship with the Croat population -- you

         20  personally?

         21       A.   First of all, Sir, I never ever thought

         22  something like that would happen -- I never had any

         23  doubts.  (redacetd)

         24  (redacted)

         25  good to one another.  We helped one another, and I have

Page 1563

          1  to say even today not everybody is extreme.  Some

          2  people are very nice.

          3       Q.   You have some people you are on good terms

          4  with even today?

          5       A.   Yes, and I will always be on good terms with

          6  such people.

          7       Q.   Did any Croats help you or save your property

          8  while you were at Kaonik?

          9       A.   No, they did not -- my house was burned down.

         10       Q.   So your house was burned down?

         11       A.   Yes, it was burned down and somebody was

         12  repairing it when we got out.

         13       Q.   And your father's house and your brothers'

         14  houses?

         15       A.   No, they are all right, nothing happened to

         16  them, but we are not allowed to go to those houses.

         17  When I go through Kacuni, Kiseljak and Stari Put, I

         18  never go through Busovaca.

         19       Q.   Did you exchange your house?

         20       A.   No.

         21       Q.   Before you were arrested, did you own a

         22  vehicle?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   Was this vehicle returned to you?

         25       A.   No, all my property was taken away from me.

Page 1564

          1       Q.   After you were brought to Kaonik, were you

          2  released for a short moment to go home?

          3       A.   No.

          4       Q.   To have a wash and bring some food?

          5       A.   No.

          6       Q.   Is it true?

          7       A.   It is.

          8       Q.   Did you, from somebody who was at Kaonik, who

          9  was there in an official position, like one of the

         10  guards or an HVO member, receive any blankets?

         11       A.   Yes, a young man brought a blanket to me and

         12  he gave me a loaf of bread.

         13       Q.   Do you know his name?

         14       A.   No, I do not.  I only know that he comes from

         15  a village from up there towards Ravno.

         16  (redacted)

         17  (redacted)

         18       A.   Oh, that is a different matter -- what I did

         19  -- it belongs to another matter, another trial, not

         20  this one.

         21       Q.   I am not asking you about another judicial

         22  matter, I am asking you what you did?

         23  (redacted)

         24  (redacted)

         25       Q.   What kind of a work duty is it -- could you

Page 1565

          1  explain that to the Trial Chamber?

          2       A.   No, it can be any kind of obligation, it was

          3  forced labour.

          4       Q.   Could you tell us what you did?  I do not

          5  know anything about it.

          6  (redacted)

          7  (redacted)

          8  (redacted)

          9       Q.   So you were the person who did it?

         10       A.   No, there were five of us.

         11       Q.   So you were one of the persons who were

         12  collecting people around?

         13       A.   Yes, I was collecting them around, so my

         14  fellow Muslims hated me for that.  They cursed me all

         15  the time because of that.

         16       Q.   Only one question more.  When you were

         17  telling us about the events concerning the human

         18  shields in two villages on the first day and on the

         19  following day in a third village, was anyone hurt?

         20       A.   No.

         21       Q.   Were there any injuries or any casualties?

         22       A.   No, there were not.

         23       Q.   I have no further questions.

         24       A.   I want to tell the truth -- nobody -- there

         25  were no casualties, nobody was injured.

Page 1566

          1            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Mr. Meddegoda, have you got

          2  any additional questions.

          3            MR. MEDDEGODA:    I have no questions in

          4  re-examination.  I would wish to draw the attention of

          5  the court to three redactions in the testimony and in

          6  the course of cross-examination.  That is at page 18,

          7  line 14, which need to be redacted, and at page 20,

          8  there is lines 19 and 20, and on page 21, line 14 and

          9  also page 22, line 13.

         10            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Mr. Registrar, I think that

         11  we have already done those and that Mr. Mikulicic has

         12  agreed.  So, these parts of the transcript will be

         13  redacted.  Mr. Meddegoda, have you completed your

         14  examination?

         15            MR. MEDDEGODA:    Yes.  May I also point out

         16  two more redactions -- page 22, lines 13 and 19.

         17            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Yes.  We will do it.  The

         18  dialogue was a very dynamic one.  There were some

         19  references, yes.  I will now ask my colleagues whether

         20  they have any questions for the witness.

         21            JUDGE NIETO NAVIA:  Just a simple question.

         22  Was there any difference -- uniforms or insignia --

         23  between guards and HVO soldiers?

         24       A.   They had the insignia -- I did not see the

         25  Croat army there -- I cannot say that I saw them,

Page 1567

          1  because I did not see them there.  There were HVO

          2  insignia, and there were black uniforms, with no

          3  insignia at all.  Those were the other two types of

          4  uniforms -- the other uniforms we could see.

          5            JUDGE NIETO NAVIA:  Thank you.

          6            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Witness O -- could the

          7  usher go to Witness O, because I would like to ask him

          8  a question about the map.

          9            This is Exhibit 95 that I would like to refer

         10  to.  Could that be placed on the ELMO?

         11            Witness O, you have indicated to us the first

         12  occasion when you were taken very near a bridge.  Could

         13  you use a pointer, please, and point to us where the

         14  bridge was?

         15       A.   Yes (witness marked photograph) yes, at the

         16  spot here in blue.  We cannot see the river, because of

         17  the trees -- we cannot see the river.  It is after the

         18  place where blue colour is.  It is towards Podjele.

         19            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Could you show us on the

         20  map where Skradno is?

         21       A.   (Witness indicates).  All this is Skradno.

         22            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   When we go near the

         23  supermarket the second time around, could you please

         24  point to the supermarket where you went on the second

         25  occasion?

Page 1568

          1       A.   Yes, this is where I pointed to the shop and

          2  the warehouse (indicates).

          3            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Thank you.  Could you tell

          4  us where -- could you point to the direction of Strane?

          5       A.   From Sendoline Kuce where the bridge is --

          6  towards that direction.

          7            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Could you point out the

          8  village on the map -- the village of Strane -- where is

          9  Strane?

         10       A.   Near Skradno.

         11            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Is Strane on the map?

         12       A.   (Indicates).

         13            JUDGE MEDDEGODA:  So Strane is there.  Thank

         14  you.  Thank you very much, Witness O.  This is the end

         15  of your testimony.  The International Criminal Tribunal

         16  thanks you for coming and hopes you have a safe trip

         17  back home to your country?

         18       A.   Thank you very much.

         19                  (The witness withdrew)

         20            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Mr. Meddegoda, I think that

         21  we can use this occasion to make a small break before

         22  we start with the following witness.

         23            MR. MEDDEGODA:    Your Honours, I discovered

         24  another redaction which may have to be made which is in

         25  cross-examination.  That is connected to the earlier

Page 1569

          1  one I mentioned -- the last one is at page 23, it is

          2  line 3 on page 23, and that is connected to line 19 on

          3  page 22, so for that reason I thought that line may

          4  need to be redacted as well, your Honour.

          5            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Yes, we are going to

          6  redact that as well.  We are now going to have a

          7  15-minute break, because the next break will be 20

          8  minutes long so that will allow us to have some lunch.

          9            (11.17am)

         10                      (A short break)

         11            (11.38am)

         12            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   We are now going to work

         13  until 5 to 1.  After that, we will have a 20-minute

         14  break, which means that we will start again at 13.15

         15  until 14.30.  This is to give you the framework, but we

         16  can alter that if necessary.

         17            Mr. Meddegoda, you may proceed.

         18            MR. MEDDEGODA:    Thank you.  The next

         19  Prosecution witness is witness number 8 in paragraph 4

         20  of the Prosecution's inventory of witnesses dated 20

         21  March.  In respect of that witness I am seeking to make

         22  an application for protective measures in respect of

         23  Rule 35.  I ask that your Honours give a pseudonym to

         24  this witness and the image of the witness's face be

         25  distorted during the course of his testimony.  I have

Page 1570

          1  indicated this to my learned friend Mr. Mikulicic and

          2  I understand he has no objection to my application.  In

          3  those circumstances, I move that your Honours be

          4  pleased to grant the protective measures I am seeking

          5  on behalf of that witness.

          6            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Mr. Mikulicic?

          7            MR. MIKULICIC:    The Defence has no objection

          8  and we agree with the proposal made by the Prosecutor.

          9            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Thank you, Mr. Mikulicic.

         10  The Trial Chamber will grant the measures requested,

         11  and we are going to take all the relevant action, which

         12  means lowering the blinds.

         13                (The witness entered court)

         14            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Good morning, Sir.  Can

         15  you hear me?

         16            THE WITNESS:    Yes, I can.

         17            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Please now read the solemn

         18  declaration that the usher will give you.

         19            THE WITNESS:    I solemnly declare that

         20  I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but

         21  the truth.

         22            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   You may be seated.  Do you

         23  feel comfortable?

         24       A.   Yes, I feel well.

         25            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   You are now going to

Page 1571

     1  answer the questions which Mr. Meddegoda is going to ask

          2  you.

          3                         Witness P

          4                 Examined by MR. MEDDEGODA

          5       Q.   Their Honours have granted the protective

          6  measures you asked for.  During the course of your

          7  testimony, do not refer to any details that would

          8  reveal your identity.  You will be known as

          9  "Witness P", during the course of your testimony.

         10            Witness, could you please read the name that

         11  is written on this sheet of paper and confirm whether

         12  or not that name is yours (Handed).

         13       A.   (Witness nods head).

         14            JUDGE NIETO NAVIA:  I did not hear if you

         15  said "yes" or "no"?

         16       A.   (Witness nods head).

         17            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters cannot

         18  hear the witness.

         19            THE REGISTRAR:    This is Exhibit 96.

         20            MR. MEDDEGODA:    I tender it under seal.

         21            I would advise you to speak into the

         22  microphone.  Witness P, you are Bosniak by ethnicity?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   Your religion is Islam?

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 1572

          1       Q.   Could you please state your age?

          2       A.   I am 44 years old.

          3       Q.   Witness, I would like to take you back to the

          4  events of January 1993.  Do you remember January 1993?

          5       A.   I remember it.

          6       Q.   Do you remember when you were arrested in

          7  January 1993?

          8       A.   Yes, I remember that.  It was in the second

          9  half of January -- somewhere towards the second half of

         10  January.

         11       Q.   You cannot remember the exact date?

         12       A.   No, I do not remember the exact date, but

         13  between the 20th, 22nd or something like that --

         14  I cannot recall exactly.

         15       Q.   Who arrested you in the latter part of

         16  January 1993?

         17       A.   I was at home with my wife and my brother and

         18  his wife were there.  We were sitting down at breakfast

         19  -- that was on the upper floor.  Somebody knocked at

         20  the door and I went downstairs to see who it was.  When

         21  I opened the door, I saw a man wearing a camouflage

         22  uniform, who told me to get out.  I went outside and

         23  I saw there were four or five soldiers standing there

         24  also wearing camouflage uniforms.

         25       Q.   Did you happen to know who this man was who

Page 1573

          1  knocked on your door?

          2       A.   Yes, I knew those men.  They were HVO

          3  soldiers.  I knew one of those five or six soldiers.

          4       Q.   Did you know him personally?

          5       A.   Yes, I knew him personally.

          6       Q.   Do you remember his name?

          7       A.   Yes, I do.  His surname is Babic, and his

          8  nickname is Nikesa.

          9       Q.   You said you went outside and you saw four or

         10  five soldiers standing outside.  What were those

         11  soldiers dressed in?

         12       A.   They were wearing camouflage uniforms and

         13  they were armed.

         14       Q.   Do you know to which army they belonged?

         15       A.   To the HVO.

         16       Q.   What happened when you went out of your

         17  house?

         18       A.   I went out of the house and then the person

         19  whom I saw, Niko, when I opened the door, he asked me

         20  whether anybody else was in the house.  I said my

         21  brother was in there.  He sent another soldier to fetch

         22  him.  My brother went downstairs.  I said, "Maybe we

         23  should get dressed."  He said, "You do not need

         24  anything.  You are going for an interrogation."  Then

         25  he asked the soldier to take us to the petrol station

Page 1574

          1  at Busovaca and we were put in the toilet.

          2  (redacted)

          3  (redacted)

          4       A.   When we went out, there might have been some

          5  10 people there, all of them civilians.

          6       Q.   What happened thereafter?

          7       A.   I understood that that was some kind of a

          8  collection place -- they were collecting us -- there

          9  were maybe 30 of us.  Then a bus came and they took us

         10  to Kaonik in the hangar there.

         11       Q.   Do you remember what happened the next day

         12  after you were brought to Kaonik?

         13       A.   The next day, once we spent the night there,

         14  it was between breakfast and lunch -- the doors of the

         15  hangar opened and an HVO soldier came in, and he showed

         16  like this with his hand (indicating).  He counted 15

         17  people and told us to go outside.  When we did so, he

         18  lined us up and asked us whether anyone knows how to

         19  tie up.  We did not know what -- we were not aware that

         20  we were going to tie ourselves up.  We all were silent

         21  and nobody knew how to tie up.  Then, one of the HVO

         22  soldiers took a rope and tied us up in three groups of

         23  five.

         24            One of their officers took down our names and

         25  then we boarded the bus.  The bus took us across the

Page 1575

          1  Kozica River towards Merdani, and --

          2       Q.   What happened when you were taken towards

          3  Merdani?

          4       A.   We were taken there -- part of the journey we

          5  did by bus and the rest of it on foot.  We arrived at a

          6  place where they ordered us to stop.  We did so and we

          7  were there for about two to three hours and then we

          8  knew that -- one of the HVO soldiers told us that we

          9  were now the human shield and that one of ours went to

         10  negotiate with the villagers of Merdani, either for

         11  them to surrender or for them to surrender their arms

         12  or weapons.

         13            MR. MEDDEGODA:  I hand this aerial photograph

         14  to the witness.  There is a copy for the court as well

         15  as for Mr. Mikulicic.  I tender that document as the

         16  next exhibit in order.

         17            THE REGISTRAR:    It is Exhibit 97.

         18            (Handed).

         19            MR. MEDDEGODA:    Witness, you said a while

         20  ago that you were taken to a point by bus.  Could you

         21  please carefully look at the aerial photograph that is

         22  on the ELMO and, using the pointer, could you please

         23  point to the place where you were taken by bus and

         24  where you had to get off the bus?  Could you please

         25  look at the photograph that is on the ELMO -- the

Page 1576

          1  aerial photograph?  I suggest you look at the

          2  photograph that is on the ELMO beside you and then

          3  point out on that and not on the map -- on the screen.

          4            You may take your time, witness, with the

          5  photograph. You may leave it if you cannot find on that

          6  map the place in Merdani that you were taken to.

          7            Witness, what is the place that you pointed

          8  out?

          9            THE INTERPRETER:  Would you please ask the

         10  witness to speak up?

         11            MR. MEDDEGODA:    Could you please speak into

         12  the microphone.  Witness, could you please speak up to

         13  the microphone?

         14       A.   They brought us to a place where there were

         15  only two houses -- this road was leading to a village

         16  up there, but I do not know the name of the village

         17  (indicating).

         18       Q.   Is that the place that you had to get off the

         19  bus.  Could you please first point out the place at

         20  which you and the others had to get off the bus?

         21       A.   (Witness indicates on photograph).

         22       Q.   Could you circle that place using a

         23  highlighter that is beside you?

         24       A.   (Witness marks photograph with red

         25  highlighter).

Page 1577

          1       Q.   What happened from there?

          2       A.   We got off the bus and then we went on foot

          3  for about this length (indicating) and then we arrived

          4  -- I cannot see the houses where we arrived to, but

          5  roughly speaking thereabouts (indicating).

          6       Q.   What did you have to do when you arrived

          7  there?

          8       A.   When we arrived there, we stopped -- we

          9  walked there and then we stopped.  We did not do

         10  anything.  They went towards those houses and we heard

         11  that they were talking.  They were discussing, talking,

         12  and there was a guard there who guarded us and all the

         13  others went to the houses.

         14       Q.   What happened thereafter?

         15       A.   We were there for some two to three hours and

         16  then the person who went to negotiate with the Merdani

         17  villagers, he had gone away and that he would not

         18  return, and so they were angry and they were cursing.

         19  We were afraid, because we heard the noise and the

         20  curses and we did not know what would happen to us.  We

         21  said, in case somebody from our side starts shooting

         22  from Merdani, probably it might -- something might

         23  happen to us, we might be killed.  So they were angry

         24  and ordered us to turn around, and we went on foot to

         25  the bridge.  When we reached the bridge over the Kozica

Page 1578

          1  River, one of the soldiers told us to stop and we

          2  stopped in the middle of the bridge.

          3            I was in the middle row -- there were three

          4  rows, so I was in the middle row and one of the

          5  soldiers from the left bank of Kozica started going

          6  towards us.  Those who were in the first row -- tied up

          7  in the first row -- I was in the middle row -- he came

          8  from the left-hand side -- and when he came to me,

          9  I was wearing a jacket -- a camouflage jacket, which

         10  was given to me by an HVO soldier, and on the left arm,

         11  the left sleeve, there was an HVO insignia.  When he

         12  saw that, he could not understand why I was there, if

         13  I was one of their soldiers.  Then he concluded that

         14  I could certainly not be one of their soldiers and he

         15  cursed me, and then he took a knife and I was really

         16  very terrified at that moment.  My hands were tied up

         17  and I was looking through the holes of the bridge to

         18  the river and I could see myself already dead.  I was

         19  really very scared.  He took the knife and he started

         20  taking the HVO insignia off.  When he did that, he went

         21  to the third line and he also mistreated -- abused them

         22  as well.

         23            That all might have lasted for some 10

         24  minutes.  After that, they told us to move, but I could

         25  not move, because my legs would not move, and so then

Page 1579

          1  we started again on foot and we came to the cells in

          2  the camp.  We were untied and we went inside and sat at

          3  a table, but our hands -- we sat down to eat, but as

          4  our hands had been tied up for a long time, I could not

          5  even hold anything to eat with.  My arms were so numb.

          6       Q.   Witness, before you were returned to the

          7  camp, you said you were to stand facing a village.

          8  Which village were you facing when you and the others

          9  were standing -- in the direction of which village were

         10  you facing -- what is the name of the village in the

         11  direction of which you were standing?

         12       A.   In the direction of the village of Merdani.

         13       Q.   You said you were returned to the camp and

         14  you were returned to the building with the cells; is

         15  that right?

         16       A.   Yes, it is.

         17       Q.   For how long -- how many days did you spend

         18  in the cell?

         19       A.   Only spent one day in the hangar where there

         20  were no cells -- the rest of the time I was in the

         21  building where the cells were, and I also spent an

         22  additional day in another hangar where there were no

         23  cells, so I spent two nights in total in two different

         24  hangars and the rest in the cell.

         25       Q.   Witness, do you remember when you were

Page 1580

          1  released from prison -- from the Kaonik camp?

          2       A.   Of course I remember.  This is like my second

          3  birthday.  It was on the 8th -- do you mean where it

          4  was?

          5       Q.   No, when was that, sorry?

          6       A.   On 8 February.

          7       Q.   After release, where did you go to?

          8       A.   I went to Zenica.

          9       Q.   Witness, during the period that you spent in

         10  the camp, did you happen to see the camp commander?

         11       A.   Yes, on one occasion.

         12       Q.   Would you be able to recognise the camp

         13  commander if you saw him again?

         14       A.   I think I would.

         15       Q.   Witness, could you please look around this

         16  court and say whether the camp commander whom you saw

         17  in the prison is present in court today?

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   Could you point out the direction in which he

         20  is in this court?

         21       A.   (Witness points to his left in the direction

         22  of the accused).

         23            MR. MEDDEGODA:    I would wish to point out a

         24  redaction which has to be made in the evidence.  On

         25  page 31, line 25 would need to be redacted and on page

Page 1581

          1  32, lines 1 and 2.  I have no further questions in

          2  chief.

          3            THE REGISTRAR:    It has been redacted.

          4            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Witness P, you have

          5  answered the questions of the Prosecutor.

          6            Mr. Mikulicic, Mr. Joka, you are now going to

          7  proceed to cross-examination.  Witness, you are going

          8  to answer Mr. Joka's questions on behalf of the Defence.

          9               Cross-examined by MR. JOKA

         10       Q.   Thank you, your Honours.

         11            Please tell the Trial Chamber whether you

         12  have ever been convicted before?

         13       A.   No, never.

         14       Q.   Can you tell us what type of school you

         15  finished?

         16       A.   Secondary school.

         17       Q.   How many years?

         18       A.   Three years -- three.

         19       Q.   This is the elementary school plus three or

         20  all together three?

         21       A.   No, elementary plus three -- three years of

         22  the secondary school.

         23       Q.   I am going to ask you, Mr. P, questions

         24  regarding the events when you were, as you call it, a

         25  human shield.  This was in Merdani.  Whose village was

Page 1582

          1  it; in other words, who lived there?

          2       A.   It was a Muslim village.

          3       Q.   Was it an exclusively Muslim village?

          4       A.   Yes, exclusively.

          5       Q.   You told the Trial Chamber that you stood

          6  there for about two or three hours?

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   You said, if I remember correctly, that you

          9  were told that you were a human shield?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   Who told you this?

         12       A.   I was told -- actually, I was not told

         13  directly, but the bus driver told all of us who were on

         14  the bus.

         15       Q.   From the position where you were standing,

         16  how far was the village -- what was the distance in

         17  metres?

         18       A.   Which village?

         19       Q.   The village you were standing facing.

         20       A.   Maybe about two kilometres.

         21       Q.   Excuse me, I did not hear you well?

         22       A.   In a straight line, maybe it was about one

         23  kilometre.  A straight line, one kilometre.

         24       Q.   In real terms?

         25       A.   Maybe a little bit more.

Page 1583

          1       Q.   Do you know whether this village was armed?

          2       A.   I did not know that.

          3       Q.   Do you know whether, in this village, there

          4  were any BiH army members?

          5       A.   I do not know that.

          6       Q.   Do you know, how was the front-line defined in

          7  this area?

          8       A.   No.

          9       Q.   Out of the 15 of you that were there, those

         10  15 human shields, was anyone injured?

         11       A.   You mean while --

         12       Q.   While you were standing there?

         13       A.   No, no-one was injured.

         14       Q.   Was there any shooting while you were

         15  standing there?

         16       A.   No, there was no shooting where we were, but

         17  we could hear.

         18       Q.   No, no, I am interested in where you were.

         19       A.   No, not where we were.

         20       Q.   You told the Trial Chamber about the incident

         21  with the soldier who noticed that you had a military

         22  top.  Can you tell us who gave you this jacket?

         23       A.   When I arrived in the bus, from the bus

         24  station -- this was on the first day -- and this

         25  soldier of theirs, the HVO soldiers brought us there,

Page 1584

          1  so we got off the bus and, since I only had my jeans on

          2  and a sweater the bus driver asked me whether I was

          3  cold and I told him I was.  He said, "Shall I give you

          4  my jacket?"  I said, "Sure, why not."  He said, "Will

          5  this patch bother you?"  I said, "No, why, because

          6  I was cold."

          7       Q.   Do you know the driver's name?

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   What is his name?

         10       A.   His name is Zeljko Oreskovic.

         11       Q.   Does he have a nickname?

         12       A.   Yes, "Bubreg", which means "kidney".

         13       Q.   Was this the same bus driver who took you

         14  there to be a human shield?

         15       A.   Yes.

         16       Q.   And he gave you this jacket before you became

         17  a human shield?

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   And he is the person that told you that you

         20  were going to be taken there as human shields?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   If I understand you correctly, you were a

         23  human shield wearing an HVO camouflage top?

         24       A.   Yes.

         25       Q.   Just one additional clarification, please.

Page 1585

          1  In your statement today, you said that 15 of you were

          2  placed in a position and that the military went ahead

          3  of you to negotiate?

          4       A.   No, that is not what I said.

          5       Q.   Then I misunderstood you, could you please

          6  clarify?

          7       A.   When we arrived at the location -- how shall

          8  I put it -- where we should have been, one of the

          9  soldiers stayed with us.  There were two or three

         10  houses there and the HVO soldiers were there.

         11       Q.   So where did they go -- to the left or the

         12  right?

         13       A.   To the right, to the right.

         14       Q.   Where?

         15       A.   To those two houses.

         16       Q.   Whose houses were these?

         17       A.   I do not know whose houses they were.

         18       Q.   Were they Muslim or Croat houses?

         19       A.   They were not Croat, I think they could

         20  have been Serb.  I had never been there before.

         21  I was never in that area.

         22       Q.   So those were not houses belonging to the

         23  village of Merdani because Merdani was further away?

         24       A.   Yes, that was much further away -- a

         25  kilometre away.

Page 1586

          1       Q.   Were you registered in Kaonik by any

          2  international organisation?

          3       A.   By the Red Cross.

          4       Q.   When was this; that is, how many days after

          5  your arrival there?

          6       A.   I believe I cannot be specific, but let us

          7  say six or seven days.

          8       Q.   Were you ever taken to dig trenches?

          9       A.   I was not.

         10            MR. JOKA:  Your Honours, no further questions

         11  of this witness.

         12            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Mr. Meddegoda, have you got

         13  any additional questions?

         14            MR. MEDDEGODA:    Nothing, your Honour.

         15            JUDGE NIETO NAVIA:  I am going to read some

         16  lines of the statement you signed only a few days ago:

         17            "I was informed by somebody of the guards

         18  that the commander of the camp was Zlatko Aleksovski.

         19  I did not know him from before and I saw him only once

         20  in the camp.  I can describe him as a short man with a

         21  round face, blond hair.  He seemed to me to be 40

         22  years."

         23            Is that man in this room?

         24       A.   Yes, he is.

         25            JUDGE NIETO NAVIA:  Where?

Page 1587

          1       A.   (Witness indicates with hand to his left) he

          2  is to the left of me in the back.

          3            JUDGE NIETO NAVIA:  Does he have blond hair?

          4       A.   No, not the blond one -- the one to the left.

          5            JUDGE NIETO NAVIA:  Thank you.

          6            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Witness P, the place you

          7  were taken to, you mentioned two houses, is that true

          8  -- is that correct -- you mentioned there were two

          9  houses.  Do you recall that?

         10       A.   I do.

         11            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   There was a discussion

         12  whether these houses belonged to Muslims, Croats or

         13  Serbs.  How can you know or recognise whether a house

         14  is Muslim, Croat or Serb?  Is there anything that

         15  enables you to recognise those houses and differentiate

         16  them?

         17       A.   For instance, you can recognise them by the

         18  roofs -- you can recognise whether it is Croat,

         19  Serb or Muslim, but I do not recall the roofs of

         20  those two houses, but I know that this area was either

         21  Serb or Croat.  It definitely was not Muslim.

         22            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Thank you very much,

         23  Witness P.  You have just completed your testimony.

         24  The International Criminal Tribunal thanks you for

         25  coming here and wishes you a safe return to your

Page 1588

          1  country.

          2                  (The witness withdrew)

          3            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Mr. Meddegoda, the next

          4  witness?

          5            MR. MEDDEGODA:    Your Honours, the next

          6  Prosecution witness is witness number 9 at paragraph 4

          7  of the inventory dated 20 March.  I am seeking to make

          8  a similar application on behalf of this witness as

          9  well.  The witness has sought protective measures, has

         10  sought that a pseudonym be assigned in the course of

         11  his testimony and also the image of his face be

         12  distorted during the course of his testimony.  I have

         13  indicated this to my learned friend Mr. Mikulicic, and

         14  I understand he has no objection to the Prosecution's

         15  application.

         16            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Mr. Mikulicic?

         17            MR. MIKULICIC:    The Defence has no

         18  objections, your Honours.

         19            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   In that case, we will

         20  adopt the same measures as for the previous witness.

         21  Please show the witness in.

         22                (The witness entered court)

         23            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Good morning, Sir.  Can

         24  you hear me?  You will now read the solemn declaration,

         25  which the usher will hand to you.

Page 1589

     1            THE WITNESS:    I solemnly declare that

          2  I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but

          3  the truth.

          4            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   You may be seated.  Do you

          5  feel comfortable?

          6            THE WITNESS:    Yes.

          7            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   You are now going to

          8  answer questions which Mr. Meddegoda, the Prosecutor,

          9  will ask you.

         10                         WITNESS Q

         11                 Examined by MR. MEDDEGODA

         12       Q.   Witness, their Honours have been pleased to

         13  grant you the protective measures which you have

         14  requested.  I would therefore advise you not to refer

         15  to any details that would reveal your personal

         16  identity, and I would now hand over to you a sheet of

         17  paper, which I ask you to look at and confirm whether

         18  your name appears on that sheet of paper or not.

         19  (Handed).

         20       A.   Yes.

         21            MR. MEDDEGODA:    I tender that under seal.

         22            THE REGISTRAR:    Exhibit 98.

         23            MR. MEDDEGODA:    Witness, you are Bosniak by

         24  ethnicity?

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 1590

          1       Q.   Your religion is Islam?

          2       A.   Yes, it is.

          3       Q.   Would you state what your age is, witness?

          4       A.   24.

          5       Q.   Witness, I should have advised you that you

          6  will be known as Witness Q, and both the Prosecution,

          7  the Defence and the court will refer to you as

          8  Witness Q in the course of these proceedings.

          9            Witness Q, do you remember the events of

         10  January 1993?

         11       A.   Yes.

         12       Q.   Do you remember when you were arrested in

         13  January 1993?

         14       A.   I was arrested on 25 January 1993.

         15       Q.   Where were you at the time you were arrested?

         16       A.   I was in the centre of town.

         17       Q.   Who arrested you on 25 January 1993?

         18       A.   The HVO military.

         19       Q.   What happened after being arrested by the

         20  HVO?

         21       A.   I was placed on a bus and we were taken to

         22  the Kaonik camp, which was the former barracks.

         23       Q.   Where, in Kaonik camp, were you brought to?

         24       A.   I was brought to this former JNA barracks --

         25  the former army -- at Kaonik.

Page 1591

          1       Q.   What type of a building was it that you were

          2  brought to?

          3       A.   Those were some kind of hangars.

          4       Q.   Do you remember being taken out of that

          5  hangar building the next day?

          6       A.   Yes.  The next day I was taken out of the

          7  hangar and we were tied up -- we were bound, five of us

          8  together, and we were taken to be used as human

          9  shields.

         10       Q.   Do you know -- how many of you were tied up

         11  to be taken as human shields?

         12       A.   All together, 15, but five were tied up with

         13  a single rope.

         14       Q.   Is it only five persons who were tied up, or

         15  all 15 who were tied?

         16       A.   All 15.

         17       Q.   After being tied up, where were you taken to?

         18       A.   We were taken in the direction of the village

         19  of Skradno.

         20            JUDGE VOHRAH:  Could you elicit from the

         21  witness the manner in which these people were tied up?

         22            MR. MEDDEGODA:    Thank you, your Honour.

         23            Witness, could you tell this court how you

         24  were tied up -- in what form you were tied up?

         25       A.   Our hands were tied behind our backs.

Page 1592

          1       Q.   Were you all tied together?

          2       A.   Yes, we were all tied together.

          3       Q.   How many were tied together -- were you tied

          4  together all 15 in one group or how were you tied?

          5       A.   No, we were tied five together -- three

          6  groups of five.

          7       Q.   Very well.

          8            You said, having been tied, you were taken to

          9  Skradno?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   Where in Skradno were you taken to?

         12       A.   When you turn off from the main road towards

         13  Skradno, that is where we were taken.  There is a

         14  bridge there, which crosses the river and continues in

         15  the direction of Skradno.

         16       Q.   And at what point did you have -- at any

         17  point did you have to get off the bus?

         18       A.   We got off the bus.

         19       Q.   What happened having got off the bus?

         20       A.   We were tied up, we got off the bus, and we

         21  were put in some kind of rows, five by five -- there

         22  were five of us tied together, so we were put in rows,

         23  facing one another.

         24       Q.   Did you have to cross the bridge that you

         25  spoke of -- cross the river that you spoke of?

Page 1593

          1       A.   Yes, we crossed the bridge -- some 10 or 15

          2  metres on the bridge.

          3       Q.   What happened thereafter?

          4       A.   We stood there for some 15 minutes.  After

          5  that, a man, unknown to me, came and he stopped that

          6  operation.

          7       Q.   Then what happened after that operation was

          8  stopped?

          9       A.   We returned to the buses again, and we were

         10  driven towards the village of Strane.

         11       Q.   Witness, before we go to Strane, you said

         12  before the operation was stopped, you said you were

         13  standing in rows.  In which direction were you facing

         14  when you were standing in rows?

         15       A.   We were facing towards Skradno.

         16       Q.   Sorry, I was referring to Skradno.  It was

         17  after that that you were taken back to the bus.  What

         18  happened thereafter?

         19       A.   After that, we went in the direction of the

         20  village of Strane.

         21       Q.   How did you go in the direction of the

         22  village of Strane?

         23       A.   Then, when we were driven there, we got off

         24  the buses again, and we were lined up in such a way so

         25  that all the 15 of us were in one row.  We were lined

Page 1594

          1  up side by side.

          2       Q.   When you were lined up, which direction were

          3  you facing on this occasion?

          4       A.   We were facing towards Strane -- the village

          5  of Strane.

          6       Q.   What happened when you were lined up facing

          7  the village of Strane?

          8       A.   The HVO soldiers stood right behind us and

          9  told us to go towards Strane.

         10       Q.   How many HVO soldiers were there standing

         11  behind you?

         12       A.   Maybe some 10 or 15 of them -- I am not sure.

         13       Q.   Do you recall what happened thereafter?

         14       A.   After that, a bullet passed by us and

         15  normally we bent towards the ground.  An HVO soldier

         16  said that we should not do so.

         17       Q.   How long were you standing there for?

         18       A.   For some 30 to 40 minutes, all in all.

         19       Q.   Do you know what happened in the village of

         20  Strane?

         21       A.   I do not know what had happened exactly.

         22  What I heard -- a man from the camp had been sent to

         23  Strane to negotiate with our people.  I think that he

         24  succeeded in that, because we were withdrawn from

         25  there.

Page 1595

          1       Q.   Whom do you mean by "our people"?

          2       A.   From the camp -- a man from the camp, who was

          3  with us in the camp.

          4       Q.   You said had been sent to negotiate with

          5  other people; whom do you mean by referring to "other

          6  people"?

          7       A.   The people from the village -- the Muslims,

          8  the Bosniaks.

          9       Q.   What was the ethnic composition of the

         10  village -- are you aware of the ethnic composition of

         11  that village?

         12       A.   I think the majority was Muslim.

         13       Q.   What happened thereafter, witness?

         14       A.   The HVO soldier had stopped that operation

         15  again and we were returned.

         16       Q.   Where were you returned to?

         17       A.   We were returned to the camp.

         18       Q.   Whilst being detained in the camp, were you

         19  taken out for any other labour detachment?

         20       A.   Yes, I was taken out to dig trenches.

         21       Q.   Where were you taken to to dig trenches?

         22       A.   I was taken to the villages of Kula and

         23  Prosije.

         24       Q.   About how many times were you taken to Kula?

         25       A.   I think on two times.

Page 1596

          1       Q.   How were you taken to Kula -- by what means

          2  of transport?

          3       A.   By a lorry.

          4       Q.   What did you have to do in Kula, on the first

          5  occasion?

          6       A.   We dug trenches and dugouts.

          7       Q.   On both occasions did you have to dig

          8  trenches and dugouts?

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   Whilst digging in Kula, were you ever

         11  mistreated?

         12       A.   Yes.

         13       Q.   Could you tell this court what happened to

         14  you -- how you were mistreated?

         15       A.   We were mistreated in all kinds of ways.

         16  That depended on the guards and how they felt.  They

         17  would beat us with hands and feet, with rifle butts,

         18  with agricultural utensils and so on.

         19       Q.   Were you personally beaten in Kula?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   Could you tell this court how you were beaten

         22  whilst digging in Kula?

         23       A.   I was also beaten with hands and feet and,

         24  also, with a pole -- handle.

         25       Q.   Were you taken elsewhere to dig trenches?

Page 1597

          1       A.   Yes, to Prosije.

          2       Q.   How many times were you taken to Prosije to

          3  dig trenches?

          4       A.   Once.

          5       Q.   Whilst you were detained in the camp,

          6  witness, did you have the occasion to see who the

          7  commander of the camp was?

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   When did you first see him during your period

         10  of detention?

         11       A.   The first time I saw him was when we arrived

         12  at the camp.

         13       Q.   What was he dressed in when you arrived in

         14  the camp?

         15       A.   He was wearing a camouflage uniform.

         16       Q.   Were there others -- apart from the camp

         17  commander, were there other camp officials present when

         18  you first arrived in the camp?

         19       A.   I do not know exactly, but I know there were

         20  other HVO soldiers there.

         21       Q.   What were those HVO soldiers dressed in?

         22       A.   Also in camouflage uniforms.

         23       Q.   Would you be able to recognise the camp

         24  commander if you see him again?

         25       A.   Yes, I would.

Page 1598

          1       Q.   Witness, could you please look around this

          2  court and say whether the camp commander whom you saw

          3  in the Kaonik camp when you first arrived is present in

          4  court today?

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   Could you please point out the direction in

          7  which he is?

          8       A.   (Witness points to his left in the direction

          9  of the accused).

         10       Q.   Was that the only occasion on which you said

         11  you saw the camp commander, when you arrived in the

         12  camp -- was that the only occasion on which you saw him

         13  in the camp?

         14       A.   No, I saw him after that.

         15       Q.   Witness, for how long were you in Kaonik

         16  camp?

         17       A.   For 14 or 15 days.

         18       Q.   Do you know when you were released from

         19  Kaonik camp?

         20       A.   On 8 February 1993.

         21       Q.   Upon your release, where did you go?

         22       A.   I went to Kacuni.

         23            MR. MEDDEGODA:    I have no further questions

         24  in chief.

         25            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Thank you, Mr. Meddegoda.

Page 1599

          1            Mr. Mikulicic, have you got any questions to

          2  ask the witness?

          3              Cross-examined by MR. MIKULICIC

          4       Q.   Thank you, your Honour.

          5            Witness Q, I am Goran Mikulicic and I am

          6  Defence counsel to the accused in this matter.  I will

          7  ask you a few questions.  Could you please answer to

          8  the best of your recollection.  You told us that you

          9  were arrested and brought to Kaonik.  Would you please

         10  tell us whether, on that occasion, you and the others

         11  who were brought there were you -- were you searched?

         12       A.   Yes, we were at the camp.

         13       Q.   Do you know what was the reason you were

         14  searched and who searched you?

         15       A.   I do not know the exact reason, but we were

         16  searched by the HVO army.

         17       Q.   Would you please speak up?

         18       A.   I do not know why I was searched, but I know

         19  that it was the military who did it.

         20       Q.   Was anything taken away from you?

         21       A.   No.

         22       Q.   You told the court that, on the following

         23  day, you were taken away from Kaonik.  Before that, you

         24  had been tied up.  Where did that happen -- where were

         25  you tied up?

Page 1600

          1       A.   We were tied -- I was tied up in the camp

          2  compound.

          3       Q.   Inside the building or outside?

          4       A.   In front of the building.

          5       Q.   Was the camp commander there present at that

          6  moment?

          7       A.   I do not recollect.

          8       Q.   You told us that you were first of all taken

          9  to the village of Skradno?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   Could you tell this Trial Chamber whether you

         12  know the geography of the area well?

         13       A.   I do know it, yes.

         14       Q.   Do you know where those villages are --

         15  Skradno and Strane, where are those villages located?

         16       A.   I know.

         17       Q.   Are you aware whether, in the village of

         18  Skradno, BiH army was present?

         19       A.   No, it was not.

         20       Q.   Is it not known to you, or was the army not

         21  there?

         22       A.   It is not known to me.

         23       Q.   You said that you were taken there by bus,

         24  you got off the bus and you stood at the bridge.  How

         25  far is the bridge you stood on from the village of

Page 1601

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Page 1602

          1       Q.   Are you aware whether BiH army was present in

          2  the village of Strane?

          3       A.   I am not aware of that.

          4       Q.   You said that at some stage a shot was

          5  heard.  Do you know where it was fired from?

          6       A.   I remember that, but I do not know where it

          7  was fired from.

          8       Q.   Was anybody injured?

          9       A.   No.

         10            MR. MIKULICIC:    I would like to ask your

         11  Honours, as I will ask a few questions concerning the

         12  names of persons whose identity is protected, to go for

         13  a moment into a private session, and then go back into

         14  public session, if the Prosecution agrees to it.

         15            MR. MEDDEGODA:    Yes, your Honours, we should

         16  go into private session if names are being revealed.

         17            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   In that case we are going

         18  into private session.  Please go on, Mr. Mikulicic.

         19                    (In private session)

         20  (redacted)

         21  (redacted)

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Page 1603

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          9  (redacted)

         10  (redacted)

         11                     (In open session)

         12            MR. MIKULICIC:    Witness Q, you said that you

         13  were at Kaonik up until 8 February; is that correct?

         14       A.   It is.

         15       Q.   During your stay at Kaonik, were you

         16  mistreated, beaten or alike?

         17       A.   No, not at Kaonik.

         18       Q.   Did you see anybody else being mistreated or

         19  beaten up in front of you -- did you see it personally?

         20       A.   No, I did not see that.

         21       Q.   Witness Q, during your stay at Kaonik, were

         22  you registered by the Red Cross?

         23       A.   I was.

         24            MR. MIKULICIC:    Thank you, your Honours, we

         25  have no further questions.

Page 1604

          1            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Mr. Meddegoda, any

          2  re-examination?

          3            MR. MEDDEGODA:    No questions in

          4  re-examination.

          5            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Thank you very much.  The

          6  Trial Chamber has no other questions for you, Mr. Q.

          7  You have just completed your testimony at the

          8  International Criminal Tribunal.  Thank you for coming

          9  to testify and a safe return to your country.  Thank

         10  you very much.

         11            For the moment, I have to congratulate the

         12  Prosecution and the Defence -- we have progressed.

         13  I do not know whether you would like to say anything

         14  before the break.  Mr. Niemann?

         15            MR. NIEMANN:    No, your Honour.

         16            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   In that case, we are going

         17  to have a 20-minute lunch break.

         18            (12.55pm)

         19                 (A luncheon adjournment)

         20            (1.25pm)

         21            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Mr. Niemann, you have the

         22  floor.

         23            MR. NIEMANN:    Thank you, your Honours.  The

         24  next witness, who appears as the tenth witness in

         25  paragraph 4 of our motion that we filed on 20 March

Page 1605

     1  1998, has informed me that he has certain concerns for

          2  his safety in the area in which he lives if he exposes

          3  himself in the course of testimony.  For that reason,

          4  we are, in relation to him, seeking certain protective

          5  measures, namely, the use of a pseudonym and also the

          6  distortion of the image of his face.

          7            We have informed Mr. Mikulicic of the nature

          8  of this request.  As I understand it, I believe there

          9  is no objection to that.  I so make the application.

         10            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Mr. Mikulicic?

         11            MR. MIKULICIC:    The Defence has no

         12  objection.

         13            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Thank you very much,

         14  Mr. Mikulicic.  In that case, we are going to continue.

         15  Mr. Niemann?

         16            MR. NIEMANN:    Might the witness be called,

         17  by use of the pseudonym "R" -- Witness R.

         18                (The witness entered court)

         19            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Good afternoon.  Can you

         20  hear me well?  You are now going to read the solemn

         21  declaration, which the usher will hand to you.

         22            THE WITNESS:    I solemnly declare that

         23  I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but

         24  the truth.

         25            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   You may be seated, Sir.

Page 1606

          1  You are now going to answer the questions which the

          2  Prosecutor, Mr. Niemann, will ask you.

          3                         WITNESS R

          4                  Examined by MR. NIEMANN.

          5       Q.   Witness, Their Honours have granted you

          6  certain protective measures, in particular the image of

          7  your face will not appear on the television and, in

          8  addition to that, you will be referred to in the course

          9  of these proceedings as "Witness R".  So, during the

         10  course of your evidence, please do not reveal your name

         11  or those matters which may tend to identify you.  I ask

         12  you to look at the sheet of paper that you are now

         13  being shown.  Can you answer "yes" or "no" whether your

         14  name appears on this sheet of paper?  (Handed).

         15       A.   Yes.

         16            MR. NIEMANN:    I tender that, if your Honours

         17  please, after it is shown to Mr. Mikulicic.  Might it be

         18  tendered under seal?

         19            THE REGISTRAR:    Exhibit 99.

         20            MR. NIEMANN:    Witness R, what is your ethnic

         21  origin?

         22       A.   Muslim.

         23       Q.   And how old are you?

         24       A.   35.

         25       Q.   I ask you to cast your mind back to January

Page 1607

          1  1993, at the time when you were arrested.  Where were

          2  you -- do not give the name and address, just tell me

          3  whether you were at work or home?

          4       A.   At home.

          5       Q.   What were you doing at home?

          6       A.   I sat at home.

          7       Q.   And what happened?

          8       A.   The HVO soldiers came to get me.

          9       Q.   Were you a soldier at the time yourself, or

         10  were you not a soldier?

         11       A.   I was not a soldier.

         12       Q.   When you were arrested, where did they take

         13  you, the soldiers, that is?

         14       A.   They took me to the bus station.

         15       Q.   And, from the bus station, where were you

         16  taken?

         17       A.   They took me in a bus to Kaonik.

         18       Q.   And, when you arrived at Kaonik, what

         19  happened?

         20       A.   From the bus, they took us to the hangar.

         21       Q.   And do you know what hangar this was in the

         22  camp?

         23       A.   The large hangar that had no partitions -- it

         24  was just one large space.

         25       Q.   And were there any other people inside the

Page 1608

          1  hangar when you arrived there?

          2       A.   Yes.

          3       Q.   Were there many people, or just a few?

          4       A.   At first, there were fewer and later on more

          5  arrived.

          6       Q.   Approximately how many, in total, arrived

          7  there, ultimately, can you remember?

          8       A.   About 300 to 400.

          9       Q.   When you arrived at the camp, did they do

         10  anything in particular to you, personally?

         11       A.   They did not.

         12       Q.   Did anyone address you?

         13       A.   No, nobody did.  The only thing that happened

         14  was a search to find out whether we had anything on us.

         15       Q.   Did you have anything taken away from you

         16  during the search?

         17       A.   Some personal effects.

         18       Q.   What happened after that?

         19       A.   I stayed in the hangar for two or three days,

         20  I do not recall exactly.

         21       Q.   After two or three days, what happened then?

         22       A.   From this hangar, we were taken to be used as

         23  human shields -- this was on the second or third day.

         24       Q.   And who took you out, can you tell us the

         25  circumstances of how this happened?

Page 1609

          1       A.   Soldiers entered the hangar, pointed at

          2  people with their fingers and whoever was pointed at

          3  had to get out.

          4       Q.   Approximately how many people were pointed

          5  at?

          6       A.   We were 15.

          7       Q.   And did you recognise any of those soldiers

          8  who pointed you out?

          9       A.   I am not sure.

         10       Q.   Did you understand them to be regular

         11  soldiers in the army, or did you think that they may

         12  have been guards in the camp, or could you not tell?

         13       A.   They were regular soldiers and police.

         14       Q.   When they called the names out -- sorry, when

         15  they pointed to the people I think you said, did they

         16  do this in a random fashion, or did it seem to you to

         17  be a systematic selection of people?

         18       A.   I think it was more on a random basis.

         19       Q.   Was there anyone in authority there that you

         20  could see at the time or later come to know?

         21       A.   I could see Aleksovski, the camp commander,

         22  standing nearby.

         23       Q.   Did you know him at that time to be the camp

         24  commander, or is that something you subsequently found

         25  out?

Page 1610

          1       A.   At that moment, I knew it was him.

          2       Q.   How did you know it was him at that time?

          3       A.   Previously, he had introduced himself to us.

          4       Q.   And how had he introduced himself -- what did

          5  he say to you, that you can recall?

          6       A.   "I am Zlatko Aleksovski, the camp commander

          7  -- prison commander."

          8       Q.   When you were selected and taken out with

          9  these 15 other people, what did they do with you then,

         10  these guards?

         11       A.   They tied our hands up behind our backs.  We

         12  were in three groups each consisting of five persons.

         13  They took us to a bus, and then, in the bus, they took

         14  us to the destination.

         15       Q.   These people that took you, these soldiers

         16  that you spoke of, how were they dressed?

         17       A.   They were wearing camouflage uniforms.

         18       Q.   Did they have any insignia or identifying

         19  marks on their uniforms that you were able to

         20  recognise?

         21       A.   On their sleeves they had the HVO insignia.

         22       Q.   Did you see whether or not they were armed --

         23  were they carrying any weapons?

         24       A.   They had rifles.

         25       Q.   How many of them, approximately, accompanied

Page 1611

          1  you on the bus?

          2       A.   There was one at the front door next to the

          3  driver and at the back door there was another one.

          4       Q.   At that stage, did you know where you were

          5  being taken -- had you been told?

          6       A.   We were not sure as to where we were going.

          7       Q.   Had you been told what was going to happen to

          8  you at that stage?

          9       A.   At that moment, we did not, until we arrived

         10  at our destination.  We assumed that we were going to

         11  be exchanged.

         12       Q.   Where did they take you in the bus?

         13       A.   They took us -- I do not know exactly what

         14  the name of the place is, but it is towards the village

         15  of Merdani.

         16       Q.   And is this an area that you are familiar

         17  with, the countryside, the topography there -- do you

         18  know this area at all?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   Is it because -- I withdraw that.  When you

         21  got to this place, which was near Merdani, what did you

         22  do?

         23       A.   They got us off the bus and there was a group

         24  of armed soldiers -- I do not know exactly the number

         25  -- 10 to 20 -- I do not remember.  They were behind

Page 1612

          1  us, and we were walking in three groups each of five

          2  persons and we were walking towards the front-line.

          3       Q.   In these group of soldiers, 10 to 20, did you

          4  identify them as being members of any particular army?

          5       A.   On their left sleeve they wore the HVO

          6  insignia.

          7       Q.   Where were you taken, can you describe the

          8  circumstances of what happened to you?

          9       A.   They brought us close to the front-line -- the

         10  firing line.  This is where we came to a stop.  They

         11  sent one of us to go into the village and negotiate.

         12            MR. NIEMANN:  Witness, I now show you a

         13  photograph -- an aerial photograph -- which I would ask

         14  you to study for me for a moment and see if you can

         15  recognise it in order to make some markings on it for

         16  me.

         17            I have one copy for your Honours and one for

         18  Mr. Mikulicic.  (Handed).

         19            I am going to ask you to put this photograph

         20  on the machine that sits beside you and I will ask you

         21  to mark it with a pen, if you would be so kind.

         22            You will need to look at the photograph --

         23  the exhibit as it is on the machine beside you and not

         24  on the television set in front of you.  When you mark

         25  it with the pen, you will have to mark the actual paper

Page 1613

          1  exhibit, but when you are speaking, you will need to

          2  make sure that your voice is directed towards the

          3  microphone, otherwise we will not be able to pick up

          4  what you say.  It is a bit difficult -- I ask you to

          5  mark and then make sure you move your head towards the

          6  microphone as you talk to us.  Would you do that?

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   Looking at that photograph, does it look

          9  familiar to you?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   Firstly, can you see the approximate location

         12  of the Kaonik camp there?  Can you see where that is?

         13  Take your time.  You can point to it with your finger,

         14  if you like.

         15       A.   (Indicates on photograph).

         16       Q.   Okay, at that spot where you have just

         17  pointed to, is that the Kaonik camp?

         18       A.   Yes, it is.

         19       Q.   Would you put the letter -- a big capital "A"

         20  there for me with your red pen so we can see that you

         21  have marked that as the Kaonik camp.  Just put a "A"

         22  there for me, please?

         23       A.   (Witness marked photograph with "A" in red).

         24       Q.   I am not sure how well your pen writes, but

         25  we might see if we can get one that -- it does not have

Page 1614

          1  to be red.  Can you mark with the letter "B" the place

          2  which was near Merdani where you were taken in this bus

          3  when you were tied up?

          4       A.   (Witness marked photograph with "B" in

          5  green).

          6       Q.   The village of Merdani itself, can you put a

          7  big circle around the village of Merdani, the area

          8  where it is?

          9       A.   (Witness marked photograph with green

         10  circle).

         11       Q.   Can you tell us, is the village of Merdani --

         12  was that a predominantly Muslim village, Croat village

         13  or Serb village, do you know?

         14       A.   It was predominantly Muslim.

         15       Q.   Do you know where the front-line was at that

         16  time between the Croat and the Serb army --

         17  sorry, and the Muslim army, that is, between the HVO

         18  and the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina -- do you know where

         19  the front-line was, approximately?  If you do not know,

         20  it does not matter.

         21       A.   In this area here (indicates) approximately.

         22       Q.   Would you draw a line with your green pen for

         23  me -- it does not have to be precise -- it is just the

         24  general area of it.

         25       A.   (Witness marked photograph with green line).

Page 1615

          1            MR. NIEMANN:  I tender that, your Honours.

          2            THE REGISTRAR:    It is Exhibit 100.

          3            MR. NIEMANN:    Witness, when you were taken

          4  to this place at Merdani, you got to the point where

          5  you said that one of the group went ahead into the

          6  town, or towards Merdani, as I understand it.  What

          7  happened then?

          8       A.   One of our own was sent to the village to

          9  negotiate.  However, he never came back.

         10       Q.   How long were you there for?

         11       A.   We were there for several hours, there on the

         12  road.

         13       Q.   Did you hear any firing of weapons or

         14  anything of that nature during the time that you were

         15  there?

         16       A.   We heard shooting.

         17       Q.   Do you know where the shooting came from, or

         18  was it just the sound that you could hear?

         19       A.   We could not determine exactly where the

         20  shooting was coming from.

         21       Q.   After the couple of hours had expired, did

         22  you then return to the camp?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   Did you ever see, during that period, any

         25  other people being used as human shields?

Page 1616

          1       A.   Yes.

          2       Q.   What did you see?

          3       A.   Also a group of 15 people -- a group was

          4  taken to another location to be used as human shields.

          5       Q.   They were not taken from the camp,

          6  I understand?

          7       A.   Yes, they were taken from the camp.

          8       Q.   From the Kaonik camp?

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   Were you there at the time when they were

         11  taken as human shields yourself?

         12       A.   No, but I was in touch with them after they

         13  came back.

         14       Q.   Did they tell you where they had been taken?

         15       A.   They went to the area of the village of

         16  Strane from Kaonik.

         17       Q.   Did you ever see anyone being used as human

         18  shields in the area of Rovna and Kovacevic?

         19       A.   Yes, but I do not recall exactly the name of

         20  the place -- Rovna, Kovacevic and Pezici were very

         21  close.  A woman was also brought, but I do not recall

         22  the name of the woman.

         23       Q.   But that woman had not been taken from the

         24  camp, I take it?

         25       A.   No, she was brought from her own home, and

Page 1617

          1  she was brought there in her own vehicle --

          2  I recognised this vehicle and I knew to whom it

          3  belonged.

          4       Q.   During the time that you were in the Kaonik

          5  camp, were you ever required to go out doing trench

          6  digging?

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   Are you able to name some of the locations,

          9  or all of the locations, if possible, where you were

         10  taken for trench digging, if you can tell us the names

         11  of those places?

         12       A.   Kula, Tisovac, Rovna, Babjak, Solakovici --

         13  that means the surroundings of the town of Busovaca,

         14  I went everywhere.

         15       Q.   Approximately how many times, can you

         16  remember -- you may not recall that you were taken out

         17  for trench digging?

         18       A.   We went to dig on a daily basis.  We would be

         19  taken out in the morning and brought back at night.

         20       Q.   How long were you in the Kaonik camp?

         21       A.   15 days.

         22       Q.   How often did you see the accused -- sorry,

         23  I withdraw that.  How often did you see the camp

         24  commander when you were in the Kaonik camp?

         25       A.   I saw him mostly in the morning when we would

Page 1618

          1  be taken to work, when we would be called out.

          2       Q.   What was he doing, as best you can recall,

          3  when you were taken out of a morning?

          4       A.   He did nothing -- he was just present there.

          5  It was the others who called us out, who put our names

          6  down, et cetera.

          7       Q.   I think you said that you saw him present

          8  when you were taken out for the purposes of being used

          9  as a human shield.  Was he there at any of the times

         10  when you were taken out for the purposes of trench

         11  digging that you could see and remember?

         12       A.   You mean within the compound?

         13       Q.   Yes, within the camp itself?

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   Was it often, occasionally, or just rarely,

         16  that you saw him there when you were being taken out

         17  for trench digging?

         18       A.   Rather frequently.

         19       Q.   Do you think that you would recognise him

         20  again if you saw him?

         21       A.   This was a long time ago, but I believe

         22  that I could.

         23       Q.   Perhaps you might look around the courtroom

         24  and if you can see the person that you remember as the

         25  camp commander, can you point to that person?

Page 1619

          1       A.   The gentlemen is over there (witness points

          2  to his left in the direction of the accused).

          3            MR. NIEMANN:    I have no further questions,

          4  your Honour.

          5            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Thank you very much,

          6  Mr. Niemann.

          7            Mr. Mikulicic, Mr. Joka?

          8                Cross-examined by MR. JOKA

          9       Q.   Thank you, your Honours.

         10            I am Defence counsel Joka and I have several

         11  questions for you.  When you told the court that you

         12  were used as a human shield, when asked by my colleague

         13  you stated that you were close to the firing line?

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   What does that mean, "close" or "near" -- how

         16  far in metres?

         17       A.   It was in the immediate proximity of the

         18  firing line.

         19       Q.   Please try to be more precise -- what is

         20  the "immediate proximity" -- 5 metres, 50 metres, 500

         21  metres?

         22       A.   100 to 200 metres.

         23       Q.   How did you know where the firing line was?

         24       A.   I could tell that by the shooting.

         25       Q.   A little while ago you could not determine

Page 1620

          1  where the shooting was coming from?

          2       A.   The shooting was coming from both sides.

          3       Q.   On the photograph marked 100, which is on the

          4  ELMO right next to you, by letter "B" you marked the

          5  place where you were standing?

          6       A.   This is where we were unloaded from the bus.

          7       Q.   Is this also where you spent several hours

          8  standing?

          9       A.   No, we walked a little bit further ahead.

         10       Q.   Can you please show us on the map where this

         11  was?

         12       A.   (Indicating) around here.

         13       Q.   Would you please be so kind to show it again?

         14       A.   Approximately there (indicating).

         15       Q.   What did you then mark with the letter "C"?

         16       A.   Where is "C"?

         17            MR. NIEMANN:    There is no "C".

         18            MR. JOKA:  I apologise, my mistake.

         19            In the far left corner you circled something.

         20            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   The witness said this was

         21  Merdani.

         22            MR. JOKA:  I am sorry, it looked like a letter

         23  "C" to me, so I got confused.  I am sorry.

         24            How far were you from this village in a

         25  straight line?

Page 1621

          1       A.   About 500 metres, I do not know exactly.

          2       Q.   Did you see any houses?

          3       A.   No.

          4       Q.   Did you see any people?

          5       A.   No.

          6       Q.   Did you see soldiers?

          7       A.   What soldiers do you have in mind?

          8       Q.   Any soldiers 500 metres away?

          9       A.   No, we could not -- they were on the other

         10  side.

         11       Q.   But did you see the BiH army?

         12       A.   No, we did not.

         13       Q.   At that time was anyone wounded out of you 15

         14  -- if I understood you well, the incident with the

         15  woman has nothing to do with Kaonik, has it?

         16       A.   How do you mean, has nothing to do with it?

         17       Q.   Was this woman in Kaonik?

         18       A.   No, she was not.

         19       Q.   Were you registered with the Red Cross?

         20       A.   Yes, I was.

         21       Q.   How many days after your arrival?

         22       A.   I do not know exactly but we were all

         23  registered on the same day.  I do not know -- maybe we

         24  spent a week there and after that the International Red

         25  Cross came.  We were all registered on the same day.

Page 1622

          1            MR. JOKA:  I have no further questions, your

          2  Honours.

          3            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Mr. Niemann?

          4                 Re-examined by MR. NIEMANN

          5       Q.   Mr. Joka asked you some questions about the

          6  place where you had to stand.  I think in order for us

          7  to clarify precisely where that is, where you had to

          8  stand as a group for that period of two hours, could

          9  you mark it with the letter "C" on the map that is

         10  there beside you, please, with your pen?

         11       A.   (Witness marked photograph with the

         12  letter "C").  That is roughly speaking.

         13            MR. NIEMANN:    Nothing further, your Honour.

         14            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Witness R, the Trial

         15  Chamber has no additional questions for you.  Thank you

         16  very much for coming, and a safe return to your

         17  country.  Thank you very much.

         18                  (The witness withdrew)

         19            MR. NIEMANN:    Your Honours, the next

         20  witness, in a similar vein, has also sought protection,

         21  as he comes from the same area and is under the same

         22  constraints.  He would seek that he be referred to by

         23  use of a pseudonym and that the image of his face be

         24  distorted from the television.

         25            We have informed Mr. Mikulicic of our intended

Page 1623

          1  application in relation to this witness.  We understand

          2  that there will be no objection to that as well.

          3  I make the application, your Honours.  I should say the

          4  witness is witness 12 in paragraph 4 of the motion that

          5  we filed on 20 March 1998.

          6            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Mr. Mikulicic?

          7            MR. MIKULICIC:    The Defence has no

          8  objection.

          9            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Thank you very much,

         10  Mr. Mikulicic.

         11            The measures requested will be granted and

         12  I think we can now ask for the next witness to be

         13  brought in.

         14                (The witness entered court)

         15            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Good afternoon, Sir.

         16  Could you please stand up?  You are now going to read

         17  the solemn declaration which the usher will give to

         18  you.

         19            THE WITNESS:    I solemnly declare that

         20  I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but

         21  the truth.

         22            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   You may be seated.  Are

         23  you comfortable?

         24            THE WITNESS:    Yes, I am.

         25            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   You are going to answer

Page 1624

     1  the questions which Mr. Niemann, the Prosecutor, will

          2  ask you.  You may proceed.

          3                         WITNESS S

          4                  Examined by MR. NIEMANN

          5       Q.   Witness, Their Honours have decided that you

          6  should receive certain protective measures during the

          7  course of your evidence.  We will refer to you by the

          8  name Witness S and, during the course of your

          9  testimony, you should not give any details which may

         10  tend to identify you or you should not use your name.

         11  Do you understand that?

         12       A.   (Witness nods head).

         13       Q.   I would ask you to look at the sheet of paper

         14  that is now being shown to you, and I would ask you to

         15  tell me whether or not it is your name that appears on

         16  the sheet of paper.  (Handed).

         17       A.   Yes.

         18            MR. NIEMANN:    Might that be shown to

         19  Mr. Mikulicic.  Could it be tendered, if your Honours

         20  please, under seal?

         21            THE REGISTRAR:    Exhibit 101.

         22            MR. NIEMANN:    Witness S, I would ask you to

         23  cast your mind back until 25 January 1993, at the time

         24  when you were arrested.  Can you remember that?

         25       A.   Yes, I can.

Page 1625

          1       Q.   Without giving your address or the name of

          2  the town where you are, were you at home at the time?

          3       A.   Yes, I was.

          4       Q.   Were you in the army at the time, or were you

          5  a civilian?

          6       A.   I was a civilian.

          7       Q.   Can you describe, in very brief terms, the

          8  circumstances of how it is that you became arrested or

          9  how you were arrested?

         10       A.   When the HVO members entered my part of the

         11  town, from the upper part of that side of the town,

         12  they were already taking in front of them women and

         13  children, so when they came near our house, near my

         14  house, I also went with them, and so I was taken to the

         15  centre of the town.

         16       Q.   From the centre of the town, where were you

         17  then taken?

         18       A.   I was taken to the Kaonik camp.

         19       Q.   Who took you there?

         20       A.   The HVO members.

         21       Q.   How did you know they were HVO members?

         22       A.   I knew most of them.

         23       Q.   How were they dressed?

         24       A.   In camouflage uniforms.

         25       Q.   Did they have any markings or insignia on

Page 1626

          1  them?

          2       A.   I am not sure about that particular day, that

          3  they had any markings or insignia.

          4       Q.   Were they carrying any weapons?

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   When you got to the Kaonik camp, what

          7  happened then?

          8       A.   We were taken to the hangar, which had no

          9  separations -- the upper one, I think.  We were brought

         10  in and put next to the walls, so, when we were all

         11  inside, behind our backs, the wall was behind our backs

         12  and we were ordered to take everything out of our

         13  pockets.  We had to turn our backs to the wall and we

         14  had to raise our arms so that they could search us.

         15            Mr. Aleksovski introduced himself, saying that

         16  he was the camp commander and he said something like --

         17  I cannot remember the exact words, but he said

         18  something like we were protected there and "nobody will

         19  do anything" to us whilst we were at the camp.

         20       Q.   How did you know his name was Mr. Aleksovski?

         21       A.   He introduced himself.

         22       Q.   And did he also say that he was the camp

         23  commander?

         24       A.   Yes.

         25       Q.   Can you remember how he was dressed at the

Page 1627

          1  time?

          2       A.   I do not remember that detail, but I suppose

          3  he was wearing a camouflage uniform.

          4       Q.   How long did he talk to you for,

          5  approximately, in total?

          6       A.   A very short time -- for some five to 10

          7  minutes, maybe less.

          8       Q.   After he had spoken to you, what happened

          9  then?

         10       A.   Nothing -- we were left there, and we were

         11  locked in that hangar.

         12       Q.   Were there any guards inside the hangar

         13  during the night when you were locked in there?

         14       A.   At the door or around the door -- sometimes

         15  the guard would be inside, but sometimes outside, in

         16  front of the door.

         17       Q.   Was there any heating in the hangar?

         18       A.   No.

         19       Q.   Any bedding?

         20       A.   No.

         21       Q.   Any toilet facilities?

         22       A.   No.

         23       Q.   Lighting?

         24       A.   No.

         25       Q.   After you spent the first night there or the

Page 1628

          1  first perhaps couple of nights, what happened then?

          2       A.   The following morning, that was 24 hours

          3  after I had been arrested, I was taken as a human

          4  shield.

          5       Q.   Can you tell us the circumstances of how it

          6  was that you came to be taken as a human shield --

          7  firstly, where were you when you were first selected?

          8       A.   We were called out and taken out of the

          9  hangar.  We were tied up, boarded on buses, and driven

         10  in the direction of Skradno.

         11       Q.   Who called you out -- who came and called you

         12  out?

         13       A.   People in uniform -- I cannot remember

         14  exactly who was the one who called out.  HVO members

         15  that were subsequently behind our backs, they tied us

         16  up and were escorting us.

         17       Q.   Did you understand these HVO members to be

         18  camp guards or soldiers from the regular army of the

         19  HVO?

         20       A.   Those were not guards -- these were soldiers.

         21       Q.   Was there anyone in authority present when

         22  this happened, that you could see?

         23       A.   I did not notice.

         24       Q.   Were you called out in a systematic way, or

         25  do you think it was just a random selection?

Page 1629

          1       A.   To my mind, all the people who were called

          2  out were from the central part of the town.  It seemed

          3  that there had been some kind of a selection.

          4       Q.   Did you recognise any of the people there at

          5  the time -- when I say "people", I am not talking about

          6  the detainees or the prisoners; I am talking about the

          7  guards -- did you recognise any of the guards or

          8  officials there?

          9       A.   You mean the guards?

         10       Q.   Yes?

         11       A.   Yes.

         12       Q.   Can you give us the names of any of the

         13  guards that you recognised?

         14       A.   Marko Krilic, Vukadinovic -- I do not recall

         15  his first name.  I know somebody under his nickname of

         16  Zeca and there was also a man named Milic.

         17       Q.   When you went to Strane, were there any

         18  guards in the buses with you, or did you go with no

         19  guards?

         20       A.   Yes, there were our guards there.

         21       Q.   And can you tell us what happened -- the

         22  circumstances -- once you left the camp, where did you

         23  go, and give us the details of that, please?

         24       A.   We were taken from the camp directly on the

         25  buses, and then driven to the bridge, where the road

Page 1630

          1  goes to Skradno.  Then we stopped there and waited for

          2  a while, that is where they prepared their weapons, and

          3  then we crossed the bridge.  We were in front of them

          4  and they were behind us.  We stood there for a while,

          5  because something was going on -- we did not know what

          6  was going on -- but, anyway, that was over quickly, and

          7  they told us that, at that particular spot, it was over

          8  and we could withdraw from there.

          9            We were boarded again on buses, and taken in

         10  the direction of Strane, but at the first left-hand

         11  junction we were taken off the buses again, and we were

         12  lined up in three rows of five, and taken to that road

         13  bend where we started to form one single row of 15

         14  people -- five, five, and five, tied up together.  At

         15  the moment when we were some 10 metres away from there,

         16  a car passed by, driving at a great speed, and we had

         17  great difficulty to manage to save us, and the driver

         18  stopped and started to shout at us.  He knew most of

         19  us, so he calmed himself and later on we received a

         20  cigarette each from him, or somebody else.

         21            After that cigarette, we went towards the

         22  bridge again, and the soldiers were going after us.  In

         23  front of us there was shooting.  There were a couple of

         24  bullets fired, and in front of me I could already

         25  notice that the soldiers were surrounding the village,

Page 1631

          1  coming from the left-hand side.

          2            So I cannot decide exactly who fired at us --

          3  was somebody trying to scare us, or was it coming from

          4  the village -- that is something that I cannot decide

          5  upon.  Anyway, we came to some 10 or 15 metres away

          6  from the bridge.  That is when we were stopped once

          7  again, because our negotiator was already coming back,

          8  and, again, a car passed by us -- passed amongst us and

          9  picked that negotiator up and we were told to go back

         10  towards the bend in the road.

         11            Then, when we came back there, we were taken

         12  in three rows of five on foot to the camp.  I think

         13  that it all lasted some three to four hours.

         14       Q.   Would you look at the photograph that I now

         15  show you and tell me whether you are able to recognise

         16  it for me, please?  (Handed).

         17            Would you look at this photograph that you

         18  are now being shown and see if you can identify it or

         19  recognise it for me, please.

         20            THE REGISTRAR:    Exhibit 102.

         21            MR. NIEMANN:    Do you recognise that?

         22       A.   Yes, I recognise it.  That is the Kaonik

         23  barracks where the camp was.  There is the bridge

         24  (indicating).

         25       Q.   I will ask you to do a few things for me, if

Page 1632

          1  you would.  I would like you to pick up that pen -- the

          2  green pen that is on the side table there -- and, where

          3  the Kaonik barracks are, could you put the letter "A"

          4  there -- just write it on the paper in big writing?

          5       A.   (Witness marked photograph with the

          6  letter "A").

          7       Q.   Mark with the letter "B" the first place that

          8  you were taken to when you were taken in the direction

          9  of Strane -- sorry, Skradno, I am sorry?

         10       A.   (Witness marked photograph with the

         11  letter "B").

         12       Q.   Could you draw an arrow at the bridge that

         13  you had to cross?

         14       A.   (Witness marked photograph with arrow in

         15  green).

         16       Q.   Could you also draw an arrow in the direction

         17  that you had to walk, where you ultimately ended up?

         18       A.   (Witness marked photograph with green arrow).

         19       Q.   Then you were taken towards Strane.  Can you

         20  tell us where you got off the buses, when you were

         21  taken towards Strane, the first place, and would you

         22  mark that with the letter "C"?

         23       A.   (Witness marked photograph with letter "C" in

         24  green).

         25       Q.   I think you mentioned that you had to go

Page 1633

          1  further down.  Can you just indicate with arrows the

          2  direction that you had to go?

          3       A.   (Witness marked photograph with arrows).

          4       Q.   Where did you finally end up?

          5       A.   (Indicates).

          6       Q.   Would you mark that with the letter "D"?

          7       A.   (Witness marked photograph with the letter

          8   "D" in green).

          9       Q.   Is there anything on that map that you would

         10  like to point out while it is there in front of you, to

         11  help your explanation?

         12       A.   This is the road bend where we started from

         13  (indicating) and we were lined up here as a human

         14  shield (witness marked photograph with green line).

         15       Q.   You said you heard some firing or shooting,

         16  can you mark with the letter "E" approximately the area

         17  that you think that was coming from, if you can?

         18       A.   (Witness marked photograph with the letter

         19   "E" in green).

         20            MR. NIEMANN:    I tender that, your Honours.

         21            During the time that you were in the camp at

         22  Kaonik, were you ever taken out for trench digging?

         23       A.   Yes, I was.

         24       Q.   Can you remember the places that you were

         25  taken to?

Page 1634

          1       A.   I was taken to dig trenches at Donje Polje,

          2  Donje Solakovici and Bare Kovaceva on the third day.

          3       Q.   For what period of time in total were you in

          4  the camp, can you remember?

          5       A.   From the 25th to 8 February.

          6       Q.   25 January to 8 February 1993?

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   During the time that you were in the camp,

          9  did you ever have occasion to speak to Mr. Aleksovski?

         10       A.   On one occasion, very quickly we were called

         11  out to dig trenches -- after a few days of digging --

         12  we were taken out to the corridor -- called out --

         13  taken out to the corridor, we were searched, once

         14  again, and at some stage I complained -- I had hands

         15  full of blisters, so I asked him to spare me, but

         16  nevertheless I was taken again to go digging.

         17       Q.   When you say you asked "him", do you mean

         18  Mr. Aleksovski?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   Did he say anything to you when you asked him

         21  to spare you from trench digging?

         22       A.   No, he did not answer anything.  He simply

         23  passed by and I was taken out for digging again.

         24       Q.   Did he appear to look at your hands?

         25       A.   Yes, he looked at everything, and he simply

Page 1635

          1  passed by.  He did not give me any answer.

          2       Q.   Did you receive any medical treatment for

          3  your hands?

          4       A.   No.

          5       Q.   Were you ever beaten when you were in the

          6  Kaonik camp?

          7       A.   No, I was not quite beaten up, but I did

          8  receive some blows.

          9            MR. NIEMANN:  I am almost finished, your

         10  Honours, but I would need to go into private session,

         11  if I may, because I want to ask the witness to name

         12  some people, if he would.  After that, I would be

         13  finished, if it is convenient, otherwise we could

         14  adjourn now and come back tomorrow.  It is a matter for

         15  your Honours.  It does not trouble me either way.

         16            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   I think that it would be

         17  good to finish your examination.  How much time do you

         18  think you will need, Mr. Niemann?

         19            MR. NIEMANN:    Four minutes, your Honour.

         20            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   I am looking towards the

         21  interpreters and they tell me that they can go on.

         22  Thank you very much.  Please go on, and now we are

         23  going into a private session.

         24                   (In private session)

         25  (redacted)

Page 1636

          1  (redacted)

          2  (redacted)

          3  (redacted)

          4  (redacted)

          5  (redacted)

          6  (redacted)

          7  (redacted)

          8  (redacted)

          9  (redacted)

         10  (redacted)

         11                     (In open session)

         12            MR. NIEMANN:    Witness S, do you think that

         13  you might be able to recognise the camp commander again

         14  if you saw him now?

         15       A.   I doubt it.

         16            MR. NIEMANN:    I have no further questions,

         17  your Honour.

         18            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Thank you, Mr. Niemann.

         19  Mr. Mikulicic, do you know how much time you need for

         20  cross-examination?  Would you like to do it tomorrow

         21  rather than today?

         22            MR. MIKULICIC:    Your Honours, I believe

         23  that I would not need a long time, but I think that

         24  perhaps it would be better to start it tomorrow so that

         25  it would be done all in one go, with your permission.

Page 1637

          1            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   In that case, it would be

          2  preferable to start tomorrow.  We are going to adjourn

          3  for today and I would like to add that this has been a

          4  day very well used, and I would like, once again, to

          5  congratulate both the Prosecution and the Defence.

          6            Mr. Niemann, is there anything that you would

          7  like to add?

          8            MR. NIEMANN:    Only, your Honours, that we

          9  may finish earlier tomorrow than we expected -- not

         10  much earlier, but we could finish earlier, and it is

         11  just a matter entirely for your Honours, but if you

         12  were disposed to have the status conference immediately

         13  after we completed, that would leave the afternoon

         14  free.  I only mention that for your Honours

         15  convenience, for no other reason.

         16            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Yes.  Do you think,

         17  Mr. Mikulicic, that you would find it agreeable as

         18  well?

         19            MR. MIKULICIC:    The Defence also believes

         20  that, should we finish early tomorrow, we could move on

         21  straight into the status conference, if that is

         22  acceptable to you.

         23            JUDGE RODRIGUES:   Yes.  I think this is a

         24  very good suggestion.  I do not ask anything of the

         25  interpreters, because I am sure they agree to have the

Page 1638

          1  afternoon free.  In that case, we adjourn until

          2  tomorrow.

          3              (At 2.35pm the matter adjourned

          4        until Friday, 27th March 1998, at 9.00am)

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