International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia



  1. 1 Friday, 27th March 1998

    2 (9.00am)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, ladies and

    5 gentlemen. Mr. Registrar, can you call the case,

    6 please?

    7 THE REGISTRAR: It is case IT-95-14-1, the

    8 Prosecutor versus Zlatko Aleksovski.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Can we have the

    10 appearances, please?

    11 MR. NIEMANN: My name is Niemann and

    12 I appear with my colleagues, Mr. Meddegoda,

    13 Ms. Sutherland and Ms. Erasmus for the Prosecution.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: The Defence,

    15 Mr. Mikulicic?

    16 MR. MIKULICIC: Good morning, your Honours.

    17 My name is Goran Mikulicic representing the Defence,

    18 alongside with Mr. Joka.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: So, we shall continue with

    20 the testimony of yesterday's witness. Can you pull

    21 down the blinds, please? Thank you very much.

    22 (The witness entered court).

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, Sir. Do you

    24 hear me?

    25 A. Good morning.



  2. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Have you slept well?

    2 A. I do hear you.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: We are going to continue

    4 to hear your testimony. I wish to remind you that you

    5 took a solemn oath yesterday to tell the truth, the

    6 whole truth and nothing but the truth. Are you still

    7 bound by that statement today?

    8 A. Yes, yes, your Honour.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You are going to answer

    10 questions put to you by Defence counsel, that is,

    11 Mr. Mikulicic, this morning.

    12 Mr. Mikulicic, your witness.

    13 WITNESS S (continued)

    14 Cross-examined by MR. MIKULICIC

    15 Q. Thank you, your Honours.

    16 Mr. S, my name is Goran Mikulicic. I am an

    17 attorney from Zagreb and, in this case, I represent the

    18 Defence. After answering questions by my learned

    19 colleague the Prosecutor yesterday, it is my turn

    20 today, and I should like to ask you kindly to answer

    21 them to the best of your recollection.

    22 Mr. S, in your testimony yesterday you said

    23 that you were used on two occasions as a human shield;

    24 is that right?

    25 A. Yes.



  3. 1 Q. Tell us, Mr. S, please, according to your

    2 understanding, what is a "human shield" and what is the

    3 purpose of a "human shield"?

    4 A. In my understanding, I was a human shield by

    5 being exposed to somebody who is firing in a certain

    6 direction and I am exposed to the fire.

    7 Q. Does that mean that, according to your

    8 understanding, to be exposed to fire as a human shield

    9 assumes a movement towards a certain target in the aim

    10 of the protection of men behind that "human shield"; is

    11 that correct?

    12 A. Yes. The people behind me are protected, the

    13 aim being for those in front of us not to fire and to

    14 surrender.

    15 Q. Very well, you have now explained your

    16 understanding of a "human shield". If my memory does

    17 not fail me, I think you said that you were used,

    18 together with other people, as a human shield first

    19 near the village of Skradno; is that correct?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 MR. MIKULICIC: Could I ask for the usher's

    22 assistance, to place on the ELMO the photograph which

    23 has been admitted into evidence as Prosecution Exhibit

    24 102? (Handed).

    25 I think it is alright now, thank you.



  4. 1 Mr. S, let us just remind ourselves; will you

    2 tell us, please, what these markings that you put on

    3 the photograph represent, starting from the letter

    4 "A". What is the letter "A", please -- please speak

    5 into the microphone so we can hear you.

    6 A. This is the Kaonik camp; "B" the place we

    7 were used as a human shield towards Skradno; "C" is the

    8 place where we got off the bus when we started towards

    9 the village of Strane; "D" is the extreme point we

    10 reached as a human shield in the direction of Strane;

    11 and "E" is the direction from which, as I understood

    12 it, the bullets were being fired.

    13 Q. Very well. Let us go back for a moment to

    14 the part of the photograph that you marked with the

    15 letter "B" in the upper right-hand corner. It is the

    16 place where you were lined up as a human shield. Can

    17 you tell us, regarding this point that you have marked

    18 with "B", where is the village of Skradno?

    19 A. The village of Skradno cannot be seen on this

    20 photograph well -- the first houses are Croat

    21 houses, these houses (indicating) and then behind them

    22 is the village of Skradno, going uphill.

    23 Q. How far is the village of Skradno behind

    24 these first Croat houses in relation to the position

    25 where you were?



  5. 1 A. The beginning may be about 300 or 400 metres

    2 as the crow flies.

    3 Q. Does that mean that you saw those first

    4 houses of the village of Skradno -- I am talking about

    5 the Muslim houses?

    6 A. Yes, I did.

    7 Q. Did you see the villagers?

    8 A. No, I did not see anyone.

    9 Q. Do you know whether, in the village of

    10 Skradno, there were any BiH army units?

    11 A. No, I do not know.

    12 Q. You said, if my memory is correct, that one

    13 man went to the village of Skradno to negotiate?

    14 A. I did not say that.

    15 Q. Sorry, maybe I misunderstood then. Do you

    16 know whether a man from your group went to the village

    17 of Skradno to negotiate?

    18 A. I did not say that he did.

    19 Q. Yes, but I am asking you whether you know

    20 that he did?

    21 A. Yes, I do.

    22 Q. My next question then is whether anyone from

    23 your group did go to Skradno for negotiations?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Do you know what the results of those



  6. 1 negotiations were?

    2 A. The surrender of the village.

    3 Q. Was there any fire exchanged during this

    4 incident?

    5 A. I did not hear any.

    6 Q. Did you and the people who were at spot "B"

    7 move at all from that spot?

    8 A. The position that I have marked as the final

    9 position is the position that we held for maybe 10 or

    10 15 minutes.

    11 Q. And, after that, you withdrew and got into

    12 the buses, if I remember well?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Thank you. After that, you headed towards

    15 position "C"; is that right?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Position "C" is the position where you got

    18 off the bus; is that correct?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. After that, you went on foot along this road

    21 that you marked with an arrow; is that correct?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. How many metres did you cover on foot,

    24 roughly?

    25 A. After about 50 metres, we reached this



  7. 1 position (indicating).

    2 Q. This cross-roads?

    3 A. There is a position that cannot be seen from

    4 above.

    5 Q. Seen from where?

    6 A. The people in Strane cannot see this position

    7 -- there is a little hill here protecting it.

    8 Q. And then you reached point "D"?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. How far is position "D" from this

    11 intersection where you have marked a second arrow?

    12 A. 70 to 100 metres.

    13 Q. Mr. S, from this position that you marked with

    14 the letter "D", viewing it from that direction, where

    15 is the village of Strane?

    16 A. The village of Strane -- again, it cannot be

    17 seen on this photograph, but it is up here in this

    18 direction (indicating).

    19 Q. Could you perhaps find your way on a

    20 photograph that would show the village?

    21 A. I think I could.

    22 MR. MIKULICIC: In that case, I would like to

    23 ask the usher for his assistance to put under the ELMO

    24 a photograph showing a larger area, for instance,

    25 exhibit number 95. (Handed).



  8. 1 A. (Witness indicates).

    2 Q. Mr. S, can you find your way on this

    3 photograph?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Could you show us with the pointer where the

    6 village of Strane is?

    7 A. (Witness indicates on map).

    8 Q. In your view, how far is the village of

    9 Strane from the position where you were?

    10 A. Again, about 200, 300, maybe 400 metres as

    11 the crow flies.

    12 Q. Did you see any villagers in the village of

    13 Strane?

    14 A. No, I saw no-one.

    15 Q. Do you know whether the BiH army was in the

    16 village of Strane?

    17 A. I do not know.

    18 Q. Could you describe to us what happened when

    19 you stopped on the road on the position that you marked

    20 with the letter "D" -- what happened then? Sorry for

    21 interrupting you -- another question before that -- how

    22 many HVO soldiers were with your group?

    23 A. About 15 or 20.

    24 Q. 15 to 20?

    25 A. Yes.



  9. 1 Q. Do you know what the population of the

    2 village of Strane is?

    3 A. I do not know.

    4 Q. Not even roughly?

    5 A. Maybe 100 or so.

    6 Q. How many households does it have?

    7 A. About 50, I think.

    8 Q. So you said that there were about 15 HVO

    9 soldiers with your group?

    10 A. At least 15.

    11 Q. And what is the most -- at most?

    12 A. I do not know -- I did not dare count them.

    13 Q. Mr. S, is it true that you said that, when you

    14 reached the village of Strane, HVO soldiers went in

    15 front and surrounded the village?

    16 A. They did not go in front, but they went to

    17 the side, that is, to the left (indicates). We saw

    18 them here (indicates) from this road we could see them

    19 coming out of this wood (indicates) and spreading out

    20 towards the village.

    21 Q. How many soldiers stayed behind with you, if

    22 those others went towards the village?

    23 A. They were not the same soldiers.

    24 Q. So, they were other soldiers. I see, I did

    25 not get that. Mr. S, tell us, did you and your



  10. 1 colleagues who were on the road at that time -- did you

    2 move towards the village of Strane, or did you stand

    3 where you were as you did in the other case, in the

    4 case of the Skradno village?

    5 A. From this bend in the road we started moving

    6 (indicates) and we moved slowly forward, the HVO

    7 soldiers went behind us and they fired. At that time

    8 these soldiers, too, were moving towards the village

    9 (indicates), so that that was the final point that we

    10 reached and it ended there.

    11 Q. Which is that final point?

    12 A. Yes, the point I marked with the letter "D",

    13 10 or 15 metres in front of the bridge.

    14 Q. Tell us where you were -- is there a visual

    15 connection -- can you see the village from the position

    16 where you were? Can you see the houses in the village?

    17 A. Yes, I can see the first houses.

    18 Q. And those further away?

    19 A. No, because the village is in a slope. From

    20 this position (indicates) you can see the first houses,

    21 the beginning of the village.

    22 Q. Tell us what happened then? Did that village

    23 surrender, or was there any fighting around the

    24 village?

    25 A. The village surrendered.



  11. 1 Q. Did you see a white flag or anything like

    2 that?

    3 A. I did not -- I saw nothing.

    4 Q. In this case, too, did someone go to

    5 negotiate from your group?

    6 A. Yes, I saw him coming back.

    7 Q. Was that the same man who went to negotiate

    8 at the village of Skradno?

    9 A. I did not see anyone going at the village of

    10 Skradno, but I know that somebody did, and in this

    11 second case I did see somebody coming back.

    12 Q. How much time went by from when he went and

    13 when he came back?

    14 A. He had gone before we got there, so I did not

    15 see him going, I only saw him coming back.

    16 Q. Tell us how much time went by while you were

    17 standing there from the moment he came back? Do you

    18 understand the question?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. You got there, you stopped on the road in

    21 front of the bridge and you spent some time there. How

    22 much time did it take for the man to come back while

    23 you were standing there?

    24 A. I cannot tell you, because I do not know when

    25 he went.



  12. 1 Q. I did not ask you when he went, I asked you

    2 when he came back?

    3 A. When we reached that point we might have gone

    4 on if he had not come back.

    5 Q. That is what I am asking you. How long did

    6 you stand there before he came back?

    7 A. He came down hill -- you cannot see the path

    8 well (indicates) and, when he got somewhere here

    9 (indicates) -- you cannot see him because of the trees

    10 or shrubs, and we saw him and at that moment a car came

    11 to pick him up and took him off somewhere.

    12 Q. Very well. Mr. S, you said that, at that

    13 point in time, you heard fire. Can you tell us where

    14 the shooting was coming from?

    15 A. As I said, it was coming from somewhere here

    16 (indicates).

    17 Q. How can you tell that? Did you see the shot?

    18 A. No, but it was -- the shots were whizzing by

    19 and sometimes we would bend down.

    20 Q. Was anyone wounded among you?

    21 A. No, no-one.

    22 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you. We will not need

    23 the photograph anymore, Mr. Usher.

    24 Mr. S, during your stay in Kaonik, did you ask

    25 to be taken to a doctor ever?



  13. 1 A. I did not ask for a doctor.

    2 Q. Mr. S, do you know whether some other

    3 prisoners asked to be taken to a doctor and whether

    4 they were taken to see a doctor?

    5 A. I think -- yes, I know of one case.

    6 Q. Mr. S, after you were released on 8 February,

    7 I think, from Kaonik, did you stay in those parts, or

    8 did you leave those parts?

    9 A. I left.

    10 Q. And, since then, you have not been back?

    11 A. Not to my place of birth.

    12 Q. I am thinking of the place where you lived

    13 before the conflict?

    14 A. We have the same place in mind.

    15 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, your Honours, the

    16 Defence has no further questions.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, any

    18 re-examination?

    19 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Witness S, the Chamber has

    21 no further questions for you. Therefore, you have

    22 completed your testimony here. We wish to thank you

    23 for coming, and we wish you a happy journey to your

    24 country. Thank you very much.

    25 (The witness withdrew)



  14. 1 MR. NIEMANN: The next witness appears as

    2 the 11th witness on our list in paragraph 4 of our

    3 motion filed on 20 March 1998. Your Honours, this

    4 witness is not of Bosnian or Bosniak ethnicity, but in

    5 fact is Syrian. He is Islamic, but because of his

    6 ethnicity, and the circumstances that happened during

    7 the course of the war with people such as himself, he

    8 seeks protective measures and he is still residing in

    9 Bosnia, so, your Honours, we have written to

    10 Mr. Mikulicic about this witness and informed him that

    11 we would be seeking to make this application today.

    12 We seek, your Honour, that he be given a

    13 pseudonym, Witness T, and that the image of his face be

    14 distorted in such a way that he cannot be recognised.

    15 That is our application.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic?

    17 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, with all due

    18 respect, for the protection of the witness which was

    19 presented up to now by our learned colleague, the

    20 Prosecutor, you know all too well that we never

    21 objected to protective measures for Bosniak citizens.

    22 But, we have heard here from the Prosecutor that the

    23 person in question is not a Bosnian citizen. It is a

    24 person of quite different nationality and that is why

    25 the Defence cannot see why protective measures should



  15. 1 apply for this witness.

    2 Therefore, in this particular case, the

    3 Defence objects to protective measures.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me for interrupting

    5 you, but Mr. Niemann told us that this person lives in

    6 Bosnia still.

    7 MR. NIEMANN: That is correct, your Honour.

    8 The witness will explain that in the course of his

    9 evidence. In fact, he lived in Bosnia for a period

    10 I think of 15 years, prior to the war. But he is of

    11 course not Bosniak -- he is Syrian, but, in our

    12 submission, it is a distinction without a difference

    13 and your Honours have heard evidence of the treatment

    14 of people who were classified as mudjehadeen in the

    15 camp and they were certainly singled out and treated

    16 differently, which, in our submission, would give rise

    17 to very genuine fears. So this witness has been there

    18 for a considerable period of time and merely to

    19 discriminate against him on the basis that he may not

    20 have citizenship -- he certainly has residency and has

    21 had it for 15 years -- in our submission, your Honours

    22 that would be unfair.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, excuse me

    24 that I have interrupted you. You can continue.

    25 MR. MIKULICIC: Taking into account the



  16. 1 position of the Prosecution, the Defence nevertheless

    2 maintains its position. We think there is no reason to

    3 apply protective measures for foreign citizens in view

    4 of the events that took place in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: If I understood you well,

    6 Mr. Niemann, it is a person who is not of -- who is not

    7 Bosnian -- it is a Syrian-born person who has been

    8 living for the past 15 years in Bosnia; is that

    9 correct?

    10 MR. NIEMANN: That is correct, your Honour.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I will consult my

    12 colleagues now.

    13 (Pause).

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me, please. The

    15 Trial Chamber will grant protective measures asked for

    16 by the Prosecution, because the Trial Chamber does not

    17 think it should differentiate in this case between the

    18 Syrian born person and the other witnesses, so, in the

    19 same way this Trial Chamber has granted protective

    20 measures for other witnesses, this Trial Chamber is

    21 going to grant protective measures requested for this

    22 particular witness.

    23 We are going to take all necessary steps now,

    24 in order to be able to carry out these measures. In

    25 which case, could the witness be brought in?



  17. 1 (The witness entered court)

    2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, Sir. Can

    3 you hear me? So, this is the witness and you, madam,

    4 are the interpreter?

    5 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. (Interpreter at the

    6 witness stand).

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: According to Article 76 of

    8 our Rules, each interpreter or translator has to make

    9 the oath that they will perform their task with

    10 commitment and impartiality and in full respect of

    11 confidentiality. So, I am addressing myself, to you,

    12 the interpreter. Are you prepared to do that?

    13 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I agree to it.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I will now address myself

    15 to the witness. The witness has now to read a solemn

    16 declaration and the usher has to give him this

    17 declaration.

    18 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare

    19 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth and

    20 nothing but the truth, may God be my witness.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You may be seated and you

    22 can now answer the questions which Mr. Niemann, the

    23 Prosecutor, is going to ask you, taking into account,

    24 obviously, that you should speak rather slowly and stop

    25 so that we can use four languages in this courtroom.



  18. 1 Mr. Niemann, the floor is yours?

    2 WITNESS T

    3 Examined by MR. NIEMANN

    4 MR. NIEMANN: Witness, their Honours have

    5 granted to you certain protective measures in that the

    6 image of your face will be distorted so that it cannot

    7 be recognised and, during the course of your testimony,

    8 we will refer to you by a pseudonym, Witness T. So,

    9 when you are giving your testimony, you should not use

    10 your name, but I would ask you to look at the piece of

    11 paper that I am now going to show you and I would ask

    12 you to tell us whether or not your name is written on

    13 that paper. (Handed).

    14 A. Yes.

    15 MR. NIEMANN: I tender that, if your Honours

    16 please. Might it be marked Prosecution exhibit number

    17 in order, and tendered under seal.

    18 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 103.

    19 MR. NIEMANN: Witness, what is your

    20 nationality?

    21 A. Syrian.

    22 Q. And what is your religion?

    23 A. Muslim.

    24 Q. How old are you?

    25 A. I was born in 1962, 35 years old.



  19. 1 Q. What languages do you speak?

    2 A. I speak Arabic, Serbo-Croat, and a little bit

    3 of French.

    4 Q. Is Arabic your native tongue?

    5 A. Yes, Arabic is my mother-tongue.

    6 Q. And, before the war in Yugoslavia, the former

    7 Yugoslavia, in 1992-93, for how long had you lived in

    8 Bosnia?

    9 A. I started living in Bosnia in 1982.

    10 Q. And, when you lived in Bosnia, did you

    11 undertake studies?

    12 A. Yes, I did medicine.

    13 Q. And for how long did you study medicine?

    14 A. I stopped at third year.

    15 Q. And since the war, have you become married?

    16 A. After I was released from prison, I married.

    17 Q. And do you have any children?

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 Q. And your wife, where was she born, do you

    22 know?

    23 A. My wife is Bosnian.

    24 Q. Prior to the war, what work did you do?

    25 A. I was not engaged in any form of employment



  20. 1 -- I was a student -- I went to medical school.

    2 Q. When the war broke out in 1992, what did you

    3 do?

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 Q. How long did you stay in Zagreb?

    8 A. I spent 20 days in Zagreb.

    9 Q. And, after that, what did you do?

    10 A. After that, I decided to return to Bosnia to

    11 stand by the Bosnian people, to do what ever I can for

    12 the Bosnian people.

    13 Q. And what did you do?

    14 A. I returned from Zagreb to Travnik. Upon

    15 arriving there, I joined the military units attached to

    16 the Bosnian army.

    17 Q. And what was your position -- what role did

    18 you play in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    19 A. I served for seven days and I worked as a

    20 nurse -- a male nurse. I helped with first-aid and all

    21 ancillary medical work.

    22 Q. After your seven days' service, what did you

    23 then do?

    24 A. After the seventh day, I found it difficult

    25 to cope with the situation -- I could not face war --



  21. 1 and decided to get involved in relief work as an

    2 interpreter and started teaching youth the Arabic

    3 language, and religious education -- Islamic religious

    4 education.

    5 Q. As an interpreter, who did you interpret for

    6 -- in what circumstances?

    7 A. To start with, I worked -- I started

    8 self-employed and I had my students and I worked with

    9 various bodies, including an Egyptian body, as an

    10 interpreter.

    11 Q. Why was there a necessity to have an Egyptian

    12 or Arabic interpreter in Bosnia at this time -- why did

    13 they need such interpreters?

    14 A. Relief agencies operating in the area needed

    15 somebody who could use the local language and there was

    16 a great demand for interpreters. That is where I came

    17 in.

    18 Q. By relief agencies, are you talking about

    19 humanitarian agencies from the Arabic countries; is

    20 that right?

    21 A. Yes, that is correct, there were Arab relief

    22 agencies in that area.

    23 Q. I want to move on to 1993, if I may. About

    24 25 May 1993, what happened to you -- what did you

    25 decide to do -- what were you doing on that day in



  22. 1 1993?

    2 A. I decided to go back to Syria and there was a

    3 relief convoy -- trucks -- and I had this will in me to

    4 travel on this convoy, against the advice of other

    5 people. On that convoy was a Croat person who had

    6 an estate Lada and a friend of mine, in Travnik,

    7 advised me to make the trip with him, in his car, so

    8 that will be useful to get past checkpoints.

    9 I accepted the advice of this friend and I took the car

    10 of this Croat person.

    11 What happened is that we started the trip

    12 ahead of the convoy in an area three or four kilometres

    13 outside Travnik -- the area called Kocava and we were

    14 supposed to wait for the trucks at this point.

    15 Q. This convoy was the United Nations convoy,

    16 was it?

    17 A. To my knowledge, yes, it was an UN convoy.

    18 Q. While you were awaiting for the UN convoy to

    19 reach you, what happened?

    20 A. We arrived at the Croat checkpoint, the

    21 driver pulled in, and a Croat soldier approached us

    22 and asked for papers.

    23 Q. How did you know he was a Croat soldier?

    24 A. From the badge and the emblem on his outfit.

    25 Q. What happened when the Croat soldier



  23. 1 approached you -- what happened then?

    2 A. He took the papers. There was the Croat

    3 driver and a Croat passenger and I was in the back

    4 seat. When he asked for their papers, he collected the

    5 papers from them and he asked for identification from

    6 me, so I gave him my Syrian passport. This soldier

    7 ordered me to stay in the car and he kept my passport

    8 with him. He took my passport and went back to the

    9 checkpoint to speak to a colleague of his. They talked

    10 to each other for about 10 minutes and both of them

    11 came back to the car.

    12 Then, he asked me to get out of the car and

    13 to get my luggage out of the car, too.

    14 Q. Did they search your luggage?

    15 A. Yes, they did.

    16 Q. What did they find in your luggage?

    17 A. They found religious books, a copy of the

    18 Koran -- an interpretation of the Koran -- and one of

    19 the soldiers said to me, "All the stuff that you have

    20 got on you is Islamic, you do not have anything

    21 Croat on you."

    22 Q. What happened then?

    23 A. At that moment, I had a cringe, I felt the

    24 tension of the situation.

    25 Q. What did they do to you?



  24. 1 A. When they finished the search, they

    2 handcuffed me and put me in a white Golf -- I think --

    3 at first they took me to the town of Vitez. There, we

    4 stopped for five minutes and then continued to the town

    5 of Busovaca and, from there, they were given the

    6 instructions to take me to Kaonik.

    7 Q. On the way, were you mistreated in any way

    8 from the checkpoint through Vitez and Busovaca, then to

    9 Kaonik -- did anyone mistreat you?

    10 A. Yes, when we were 50 metres away from the

    11 Croat checkpoint, torture started -- they started

    12 hitting me with their rifle butts.

    13 Q. Did they do this in the car, did they, as you

    14 were going along?

    15 A. Yes, inside the car -- all along the way.

    16 MR. NIEMANN: When you got to -- I will just

    17 pause there if I may.

    18 Your Honour, it may have been attended to,

    19 but might we have a redaction -- page 19, lines 19 to

    20 21, and page 20, lines 5 to 7.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: When you got to the Kaonik

    23 camp, what did these people do then, when you arrived

    24 there?

    25 A. I was taken into a corridor in the camp, and



  25. 1 I was asked to go down on my knees. They removed the

    2 handcuffs, and they took me to cell number 4.

    3 Q. After they put you into cell number 4, did

    4 anything then happen?

    5 A. Yes, five or 10 minutes later, four or five

    6 individuals, stocky, well-built, ran towards the cell

    7 and barged into the cell and they started torturing me.

    8 Q. What did they do to you?

    9 A. They kicked me in the head with their

    10 military boots, they started jumping up and down on

    11 me. Their kicking centered around the kidneys and the

    12 head.

    13 Q. Did you lose consciousness at any stage?

    14 A. The second phase of the torture -- sorry,

    15 I should correct myself -- I think it was on the third

    16 day -- at one point on the third day I lost

    17 consciousness.

    18 MR. NIEMANN: But you cannot recall now

    19 whether or not you lost consciousness on this first

    20 occasion.

    21 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, I did not hear the

    22 question.

    23 MR. NIEMANN: You are unable to remember now

    24 whether you lost consciousness on the first occasion,

    25 not on the third day?



  26. 1 A. I remember very well that, on the third day,

    2 that is when I lost consciousness -- I had already

    3 asked the guard to go to the bathroom.

    4 Q. I do not want to take you to the third day,

    5 I want to continue on where we are on the first night

    6 of your arrival. How long were you beaten for when

    7 those four men, those four persons came into the room

    8 and started to beat you and kick you -- how long did

    9 that last?

    10 A. The torture continued for about 10 minutes on

    11 the first day.

    12 Q. Later on that day, did anything else happen?

    13 A. Yes, on that very same day, they came back

    14 again in the evening and started torturing me again.

    15 Q. Do you know who came back?

    16 A. That evening there was Aleksovski and a

    17 person -- another person called Dzemo and there was

    18 another person called Medugorac.

    19 Q. When they came back on this occasion, did any

    20 of them speak to you -- did they say anything to you?

    21 A. Aleksovski said to me, pointing at Dzemo, "Do

    22 you know if this person is Croat or a Muslim?" And

    23 I said to him, "It does not make any difference to me."

    24 Q. What did he do when you said that?

    25 A. He said to me, "I can assure you that he is a



  27. 1 Muslim and that he works with us."

    2 Q. Did he say anything to you before that --

    3 before he asked you whether you knew this person?

    4 A. During the same day, he was cursing at me and

    5 he was swearing at Islam.

    6 Q. What was he saying, can you remember?

    7 A. I remember one word which I find very

    8 difficult to repeat now. It is very insulting to any

    9 religion.

    10 Q. What was that, can you say it -- are you able

    11 to say it?

    12 A. In the sense, if the interpreter understands

    13 me, he said, "Fuck your religion."

    14 Q. Did he do anything to you other than speak to

    15 you?

    16 A. On the second visit in the evening, he

    17 started by kicking me hard in the chest.

    18 Q. What sort of boots did he have on?

    19 A. The standard military boots.

    20 MR. NIEMANN: When you say "he", you are

    21 referring to Mr. Aleksovski, are you.

    22 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, I did not hear.

    23 MR. NIEMANN: When you say "he" kicked you,

    24 are you referring to Mr. Aleksovski?

    25 A. Yes, it was Aleksovski who kicked me in the



  28. 1 chest with his military boots.

    2 Q. Did you know Mr. Aleksovski at that stage?

    3 A. No, I did not know Mr. Aleksovski before that

    4 -- before that encounter on the first day.

    5 Q. Did you subsequently come to know him during

    6 the period of time you spent in the camp?

    7 A. Yes, other Muslim prisoners told me his name,

    8 and told me about him. One of the prisoners, Hamdo

    9 Dautovic -- Tovic or Davtovic -- they told me about

    10 him, about Mr. Aleksovski.

    11 Q. After Mr. Aleksovski had kicked with his

    12 boots, what happened then -- what happened after that?

    13 A. Having asked me about Dzemo and explaining to

    14 me he was a Muslim but he worked with them, Aleksovski

    15 asked Medugorac to give me a cigarette.

    16 Q. Did he give you the cigarette?

    17 A. Yes, he did.

    18 Q. What happened?

    19 A. I lit the cigarette and had two or three

    20 puffs. He asked Medugorac to start kicking me and jump

    21 on my back.

    22 Q. What happened, did Medugorac obey this?

    23 A. Yes, he followed the instructions.

    24 Immediately, as soon as Aleksovski gave him the order,

    25 he pounced on me and starting kicking me and jumping



  29. 1 over my body.

    2 Q. Did Mr. Aleksovski stay in the room while

    3 Medugorac was doing this to you?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. And how long did this go on for, on this

    6 occasion?

    7 A. The discussion lasted for about half an

    8 hour. But the action, the torture action went on for

    9 about four or five minutes. Then, they left the cell.

    10 Q. Was the cell door then closed?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Did you later on that day hear a discussion

    13 going on in the hallway?

    14 A. I heard people talking in the corridor and

    15 I could hear the English language spoken -- being

    16 spoken in the corridors and I heard my name being

    17 mentioned. A few days later, I was told by another

    18 prisoner that the ICRC were there. But they did not

    19 acknowledge my presence.

    20 Q. Did you gain the impression that the ICRC

    21 were looking for you?

    22 A. Yes, I had that impression.

    23 Q. When you say "they did not acknowledge your

    24 presence", who are you referring to?

    25 A. I am talking about the Croats, the HVO



  30. 1 troops, who refused to acknowledge my presence. They

    2 said to the ICRC that, "There is no such person by such

    3 name."

    4 Q. Do you have any knowledge as to why the ICRC

    5 would have known you were there -- as to how they would

    6 have known that?

    7 A. This is something that I found out about

    8 later. I found out that the ICRC were always there

    9 looking for people, searching for people, and this is

    10 something that I only found out about when I was there

    11 in prison.

    12 Q. Did anything else happen to you on that first

    13 day, that you can now remember?

    14 A. Maybe I will remember later, but at this

    15 present moment, no.

    16 MR. NIEMANN: Moving on, after you had stayed

    17 there, were you ever questioned or interrogated?

    18 THE INTERPRETER: He did not understand the

    19 question.

    20 THE WITNESS: I did not quite understand

    21 the question.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: Moving on after the first day,

    23 were you ever interrogated when you were at the camp or

    24 questioned?

    25 A. Yes, I was. On the second day, a number of



  31. 1 soldiers came to the camp and I understood that they

    2 were sent by Kordic. They started asking me where

    3 I came from, why I was in Bosnia, and they asked me

    4 about my opinion of the Vance-Owen Plan. At that

    5 moment in time, my body was all blackened, marked, and

    6 my eyes were black because of the torture

    7 that I sustained, and I was in no position to answer

    8 any questions and I said to them, "The Vance-Owen Plan

    9 has nothing to do with me" and at that moment I broke

    10 down and I started to cry. These soldiers did not

    11 torture me -- those who interrogated me. I sat in the

    12 interrogation room at the beginning of the corridor to

    13 the left, and they brought me a coffee and when they

    14 realised I could not answer their questions, I was

    15 taken back to my cell.

    16 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, I notice it is

    17 20 past. Did you wish to have your adjournment at this

    18 stage?

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes, I think it might be

    20 the right moment. We are now going to have a break

    21 until a quarter to 11.

    22 (10.23am)

    23 (A short break)

    24 (10.52am)

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, you may



  32. 1 proceed.

    2 MR. NIEMANN: Witness, during the period of

    3 time that you were in the Kaonik camp, were you ever

    4 required to do physical labour?

    5 A. Yes. During my second month of internment,

    6 they started to make me work. They gave me --

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me for interrupting

    8 you, but I think that Mr. Mikulicic has something to

    9 say.

    10 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, I apologise

    11 for interrupting, but I would like to recall that the

    12 incriminating events in the Kaonik camp covered the

    13 period from January to the end of May 1993 according to

    14 the indictment. The witness said that he was arrested

    15 on 25 May, and now he is talking about the second month

    16 of his stay in Kaonik, which goes beyond the time frame

    17 of the indictment and that is why the Defence objects.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann?

    19 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please, in my

    20 submission, the evidence is admissible on a number of

    21 grounds. Firstly, your Honours, I submit that it

    22 should be admitted, because it is a course of conduct

    23 that goes to the narration of the event from the time

    24 the witness arrived at this place through to the time

    25 that he left. It may be argued that if there was clear



  33. 1 evidence that Mr. Aleksovski was not present and no

    2 longer was the commander of the camp, clearly on

    3 relevance you could say that evidence is not

    4 admissible. But if that is not the case, then, in my

    5 respectful submission, the event is the period of

    6 confinement, the period of being detained, and it

    7 starts within the indictment period, and I submit, your

    8 Honour, that the narration of that event should go from

    9 the time it commences through to the conclusion of that

    10 evidence. That is one ground on which I submit it is

    11 admissible.

    12 Another ground that I submit that it is

    13 admissible is that it goes to establish a state of

    14 mind. If you have one incident that occurs within the

    15 period of this course of conduct at the beginning of

    16 the course of conduct and there is no evidence of any

    17 further event at all at any stage, one could perhaps

    18 mount an argument that the requisite state of mind may

    19 not have been established. If subsequent things happen

    20 -- they do not have to be in the indictment period,

    21 but if subsequent things do happen which can be related

    22 back to the event in question, then, in my submission,

    23 the evidence is admissible to prove that state of mind.

    24 So, it sort of separates it out from being

    25 something that can be described as a mere aberration



  34. 1 and it goes to prove that there was, through this

    2 continuing course of conduct, a state of mind which

    3 commenced at one point and concluded at another and all

    4 of the events that occurred during that period are, in

    5 my submission, your Honour, admissible.

    6 It is a bit like, if, for example, an accused

    7 participates in a record of interview and says things

    8 in a record of interview, which matters are admissible

    9 obviously for other reasons, and courts have said they

    10 are admissible for entirely different reasons, but one

    11 of the reasons why it is admissible is because the

    12 court is entitled to look at what the accused says at

    13 some subsequent date and some subsequent period of time

    14 and to analyse that in order to assist it in

    15 determining the state of mind of the accused at the

    16 time the offence is committed.

    17 This may not be necessarily by way of

    18 admission -- it might be false denials or it could be

    19 any other number of things that occurred.

    20 Another example might be, for example, a

    21 situation -- let us assume a hypothetical situation

    22 where you have a murder and the indictment relates to

    23 that specific event, so it is limited to, say, on or

    24 about 15 March 1991 X happened. If the police

    25 subsequently find a knife which matches a description



  35. 1 and may have found it two years later and that knife

    2 can be linked back to the event and linked to the

    3 accused, then that is properly admissible --

    4 notwithstanding the fact that it is outside of the

    5 indictment period.

    6 In my respectful submission, one does not

    7 merely say that, because the evidence is outside of the

    8 indictment period, that immediately renders it

    9 inadmissible. There are bases upon which it is

    10 properly admissible. We are dealing here with a

    11 situation where we say that the accused is responsible

    12 for the commission of certain crimes, and part of the

    13 elements which we must prove is: did he intend to do

    14 it? Did he have the knowledge, the requisite state of

    15 mind to do that? Essentially, it goes to that.

    16 Finally, it goes to the question of

    17 identification, because, if you have one incident

    18 related to you and the witness says, "On this occasion

    19 the accused was present," the issue of identification,

    20 particularly in a situation where the witness has never

    21 met the accused before, is a pregnant issue that needs

    22 to be resolved.

    23 Evidence of subsequent incidents which

    24 happened, particularly of a similar nature, can go to

    25 establish identification and to prove, in our



  36. 1 respectful submission, that it is indeed the person

    2 that the witness says it was on the day -- the initial

    3 period.

    4 So, your Honours, for all those types of

    5 reasons, and particularly because it is a continuing

    6 course of conduct, it is my respectful submission that

    7 the evidence is properly admissible.

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, do you have

    9 anything to add?

    10 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, your Honours.

    11 The Defence fully appreciates the learned opinion of

    12 our colleague, the Prosecutor, but we feel that the

    13 arguments given by the Prosecutor are not relevant for

    14 this particular case.

    15 It is a fact that the indictment covers a

    16 precise time period, thereby the Defence has been

    17 notified of the time period in question and has

    18 prepared itself within that framework and is continuing

    19 to work within that framework. Any change of the

    20 factual contents of the indictment outside this

    21 time frame is not acceptable to the Defence, because, de

    22 facto, it signifies an amendment of the indictment,

    23 referring to events that are not covered by the

    24 indictment that has not been issued.

    25 I should like to remind your Honours that, in



  37. 1 the course of our trial, it has already -- an identical

    2 objection has already been made by the Defence. This

    3 occurred when a witness started to describe events

    4 dating back to July 1993. At the time, the Defence

    5 objected. The Prosecution, responding to the Defence's

    6 objection, also voiced the opinion that the witness's

    7 testimony was necessary for the purpose of

    8 identification of the accused.

    9 The Defence has no objection to that. It

    10 feels that a question of identification can be resolved

    11 independently of the events that go beyond the

    12 frameworks of the indictment. Therefore, what the

    13 Defence does object to is a factual expansion of the

    14 charges by questioning the witness on events that are

    15 not covered by the indictment. That is the position of

    16 the Defence. Thank you.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much,

    18 Mr. Mikulicic. I think that the Trial Chamber has been

    19 sufficiently informed on the matter and we will take a

    20 decision, Mr. Niemann, thank you.

    21 (Pause).

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, could you

    23 repeat the question, please -- the question that you

    24 were in the process of asking the witness?

    25 MR. NIEMANN: Without looking at the



  38. 1 transcript, I cannot remember it precisely, but I will

    2 do my best, but the question is: Were you forced to do

    3 any labour during the time that you were imprisoned in

    4 the Kaonik camp?

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: That forced labour is

    6 outside the framework of the indictment, or is it not?

    7 MR. NIEMANN: The witness went on to say it

    8 was outside of the indictment period, I think, from

    9 memory -- some weeks after -- the indictment period

    10 ends on 31 May.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: In that case, the Trial

    12 Chamber finds that it is possible to go outside the

    13 events within the indictment period, but only to

    14 establish the consequences, because we must always have

    15 a systematic perspective of the events -- that is the

    16 globality -- the events and the consequences thereof,

    17 but in this particular case, these are other facts,

    18 which are not a consequence of others that are

    19 contained in the indictment. That is why the Trial

    20 Chamber's decision is that you should withdraw that

    21 question, Mr. Niemann.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please. Might

    23 I seek a clarification, your Honours? From what you

    24 have said, do your Honours wish me to restrict my

    25 questioning entirely to the indictment period, or are



  39. 1 you saying that any questioning beyond the indictment

    2 period must only go to issues such as mens rea and

    3 identification. May I seek a clarification of that?

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes, it is your first

    5 hypothesis.

    6 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please.

    7 Witness, Their Honours have made a ruling

    8 that you should not tell us about events which occurred

    9 beyond 31 May, so it would assist if you can just talk

    10 about events that happen within that time frame?

    11 A. Are you saying events after 31st?

    12 Q. No, only up until 31 May. You do not need to

    13 comment -- I just want you to be aware of that.

    14 You mentioned on the first occasion you were

    15 beaten, when you first arrived. Were you beaten at any

    16 time after that, during that time frame?

    17 A. Yes, I was beaten.

    18 Q. Could you tell us about those beatings?

    19 A. I will start from the beginning so I do not

    20 lose my train of thought. The first time was on 21

    21 May, I was tortured twice on the same day. The second

    22 time was two days later. Then the process of torture

    23 was systematic -- it was conducted on a weekly basis.

    24 Q. Again, just dealing with the period from 25

    25 May until 31 May, what was the processes of torture



  40. 1 that were systematic -- can you describe those for us,

    2 please?

    3 A. As I said, on day one, when I arrived at the

    4 prison, I was confronted with four or five men,

    5 well-built, and I was subjected to kicking.

    6 Q. What about the occasion a couple of days

    7 later when you were beaten again, what happened then?

    8 Can you describe that beating?

    9 A. The same method was applied.

    10 Q. Who was present on that next beating a couple

    11 of days later, can you remember?

    12 A. Honestly, I cannot remember the people who

    13 were involved, but I know that, on the second round of

    14 torture on the first day, Aleksovski was present.

    15 Q. Can you tell us whether you were subjected to

    16 any psychological mistreatment?

    17 A. Yes, there were threats that I will be handed

    18 over to the Chetnik forces, the Serb forces.

    19 Q. Who threatened you that you would be handed

    20 over to the Chetnik forces?

    21 A. At the outset it was Aleksovski and all those

    22 who work with him.

    23 Q. Why did you think this was psychological

    24 mistreatment?

    25 A. The beating I thought was a joke -- I thought



  41. 1 they were teasing me, but then I came to the conclusion

    2 that they were willing to do that, they would hand me

    3 over.

    4 Q. But why did you feel that that was

    5 psychological mistreatment, are you able to say that?

    6 A. How can you describe it otherwise? We all

    7 know the Chetnik forces bombed parts of Bosnia and one

    8 can imagine the dangers -- both parties were enemies to

    9 the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

    10 Q. As a result of the beatings that you had, did

    11 you suffer any physical injuries?

    12 A. My body was bloated as a result of the

    13 kicking and beating that I received and I was bleeding

    14 through the nose and the mouth.

    15 Q. Did you notice any blood in your urine or

    16 anything of that nature?

    17 A. Yes. On the first day, it was either on the

    18 first day or the third day when I went to the bathroom

    19 to urinate and I noticed there was blood coming out of

    20 my urine. When I walked out of the bathroom, I fainted

    21 and the only thing I can remember was I was being

    22 dragged by other inmates back into my cell.

    23 Q. When were you released from the camp?

    24 A. 16 August.

    25 Q. And how was it that you came to be released?



  42. 1 A. 13 days before my release, Aleksovski came to

    2 inform me of that decision. He called me outside the

    3 prison, but before they actually physically released

    4 me, they tortured me in the camp yard.

    5 MR. NIEMANN: I do not want you to go into

    6 that incident.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic?

    8 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, the Defence

    9 wanted to object regarding the description of events

    10 that occurred outside the indictment period, but if the

    11 witness will limit himself to the circumstances of his

    12 release, then the Defence has no objection.

    13 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, at this stage,

    14 I wish to argue that anything said to the witness by

    15 Mr. Aleksovski at the time of his release is clearly

    16 admissible and, if that is to be argued, I would wish

    17 to argue that.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I think that we should

    19 focus on the release and not go any further than that.

    20 MR. NIEMANN: Is your Honour preventing me

    21 from leading what the accused said to the witness on a

    22 subsequent occasion which is relevant to the events?

    23 Is that your Honours' ruling?

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: But the date is beyond the

    25 indictment and we have decided that all the facts



  43. 1 outside the indictment period, that is, after 31 May,

    2 should not be an object of testimony. It is sufficient

    3 to know that the witness was released on 16 August.

    4 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please. I do

    5 not wish to quarrel with your ruling in any way, but

    6 I would just like to say that that would mean

    7 discussions with a police officer would be

    8 inadmissible, because it is not within the indictment

    9 period.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: No. As you understand,

    11 Mr. Niemann, what goes outside the indictment period and

    12 which may, in a way, incriminate the accused, cannot be

    13 admissible.

    14 MR. NIEMANN: I do not know that, your

    15 Honour. That is not something I am accustomed to.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: That is the decision of

    17 the Chamber.

    18 MR. NIEMANN: If your Honours please.

    19 After you left the camp, did you suffer any

    20 illnesses or consequences as a result of being in the

    21 camp?

    22 A. Yes, and to date I suffer from continuous

    23 migraine, I cannot concentrate, and, when I am asleep,

    24 I cannot breathe properly -- kidney pains -- and this

    25 becomes more evident when there is a change of weather.



  44. 1 Q. Is there any permanent damage that you know

    2 of to any of the organs of your body?

    3 A. Frankly, I have not had an extensive medical

    4 check-up. After I left prison, I started suffering from

    5 chest pains and heart disorders and I have reached the

    6 point where I have given up on trying to find out what

    7 is exactly wrong with me.

    8 Q. The accused, Mr. Aleksovski, do you think that

    9 you would recognise him again if you saw him?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Can you point -- could you look around this

    12 courtroom and if you can see him; would you point to

    13 him for me, please?

    14 A. (Witness points to his left in the direction

    15 of the accused).

    16 Q. Finally, can you tell us about the conditions

    17 that you suffered in the camp -- the hygienic

    18 conditions -- were you permitted to shower?

    19 A. Hygiene was non-existent in the camp, because

    20 you do not expect to get proper treatment, you do not

    21 expect to get hygiene when you are tortured. When you

    22 are insulted, when you are tortured physically, how do

    23 you expect anybody will give you a shower or give you

    24 hygiene?

    25 MR. NIEMANN: Were you given any changes of



  45. 1 clothes during the period that you were in the camp?

    2 THE INTERPRETER: I did not hear.

    3 MR. NIEMANN: Were you given any changes of

    4 clothes during the period that you were in the camp?

    5 A. Yes, at the outset I was in cell number 4.

    6 Q. I think that that has been misinterpreted.

    7 Were you given any changes of clothes?

    8 A. I had my luggage with me, and they left me

    9 with part of the luggage. I remember they took my

    10 brand new pair of shoes and they gave me an old pair.

    11 Apart from that, they did not give me anything else.

    12 I had my luggage with me.

    13 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Mr. Niemann.

    15 Mr. Mikulicic, you have the floor, if you have questions

    16 of the witness.

    17 Cross-examined by MR. MIKULICIC

    18 Q. Thank you, your Honours.

    19 Mr. T, I am attorney Goran Mikulicic. In this

    20 case I represent the Defence and I will now ask you a

    21 number of questions, so please be kind enough to answer

    22 them to the best of your recollection.

    23 A. Very well.

    24 Q. Mr. T, could you tell us again what year you

    25 reached the territory of the former Yugoslavia?



  46. 1 A. 1982.

    2 Q. Will you tell me what your intention was?

    3 A. My intention was to study medicine.

    4 Q. When did you enrol at university and when?

    5 A. In 1983, when I completed a course in the

    6 Serbo-Croat language.

    7 Q. Can you tell me where?

    8 A. In Sarajevo.

    9 Q. During your stay in the former Yugoslavia,

    10 did you spend any time in other parts of the country

    11 except for Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    12 A. I was -- for the first three years I was

    13 studying in Sarajevo and then from Sarajevo I went to

    14 Pristina to continue my studies there and I stayed

    15 there for three and a half years and from there I went

    16 to Banja Luka and I was there for three years.

    17 Q. Mr. T, when did you drop out of the

    18 university?

    19 A. I abandoned it when the war began --

    20 I stopped studying.

    21 Q. Could you tell us what year that was?

    22 A. The end of 1991 -- actually, in the course of

    23 1992.

    24 Q. So, you studied from 1983 until 1992; is that

    25 correct?



  47. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. If I remember well, you said that you gave up

    3 studies on your third year of study?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Does that mean that you did not pass your

    6 examinations from your third year of study?

    7 A. Yes, I completed the year of study but not

    8 the examinations.

    9 Q. Do you remember which was your last exam?

    10 A. The last exam I took and passed was anatomy.

    11 Q. Do you remember what year that subject is in

    12 the curriculum?

    13 A. It is in the curriculum for the first and

    14 second year.

    15 Q. Mr. T, during your studies which lasted nine

    16 years, how did you finance your studies?

    17 A. My father financed me.

    18 Q. Were you employed anywhere at that time?

    19 A. No, I was not.

    20 Q. Where were you when the war broke out in

    21 Bosnia?

    22 A. In Banja Luka.

    23 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber which ethnic

    24 group is predominant in Banja Luka?

    25 A. What do you mean?



  48. 1 Q. Members of which ethnic group inhabit Banja

    2 Luka in the majority?

    3 A. Believe me, as far as I know, there was a

    4 large number of Muslims in Banja Luka before the war.

    5 As far as I know, there were about 48 or 49 per cent of

    6 them. I am not sure about those figures, though.

    7 Q. Tell us, when you left Banja Luka the war had

    8 already started in Bosnia?

    9 A. Yes, it was three months after the war began.

    10 Q. Which military side was in power in Banja

    11 Luka at the time? Were they the Croats, the Muslims or

    12 the Serbs?

    13 A. The Serbs.

    14 Q. I see, the Serbs. You said that you left

    15 Banja Luka in 1992 with a group of students and went to

    16 Zagreb; is that right?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. After that, you said that you decided to help

    19 the Bosnian people and that you went back to Bosnia, to

    20 Travnik; is that right?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. After that, you joined the BiH army and you

    23 stayed for seven days; is that correct?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And, after that, you decided to move to



  49. 1 Syria?

    2 A. Yes, but not immediately after the seven

    3 days. I saw that I was not capable of taking part in

    4 the combat operations on the front. I saw that I just

    5 could not stand it, so I thought to myself in what

    6 other way could I help those people, so I remembered

    7 that I could interpret, and I could be a teacher of

    8 Arabic for children and for adults sometimes, and after

    9 about 10 or 11 months, I decided to leave the country

    10 and go to Syria.

    11 Q. Could you tell us what was it that motivated

    12 you to decide to go to Syria?

    13 A. My desire to see my relatives in Syria.

    14 Q. Was it not simpler to go to Syria from Zagreb

    15 when you were in Zagreb?

    16 A. Yes, I told you that I wanted to stand with

    17 the Bosnian people, to help them as much as I could, so

    18 I thought to myself I will take part up to such a point

    19 and then I will go back home.

    20 Q. Mr. T, during the time you were in Travnik,

    21 you told us that you spent a short time in the BiH

    22 Army, after which you taught Arabic as well as Arabic

    23 culture and religion. Where did you get the finances

    24 for this? Did you charge for these services or not?

    25 A. While I was doing that, there were quite a



  50. 1 number of humanitarian organisations which encouraged

    2 me -- when they saw me holding these courses, they

    3 would give me some kind of a gift, compensation, for

    4 what I was doing.

    5 Q. If I understood you well, you said that

    6 humanitarian organisations gave you money to teach

    7 Arabic culture and language?

    8 A. No -- to teach Arabic language as a teacher

    9 of children of religion -- to teach the children the

    10 basics of Islam.

    11 Q. Then you decided to see your family and go to

    12 Syria. What were the things you took with you?

    13 A. I took all my suitcases with me, what ever

    14 I had in Travnik.

    15 Q. Do you remember how many suitcases were

    16 there?

    17 A. I think there were four of them, or five --

    18 I cannot remember exactly, but four or five.

    19 Q. You said that you had some religious books

    20 with you, some holy books?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Apart from these holy books, did you have any

    23 other literature on you?

    24 A. I do not believe so.

    25 Q. Is it true, Mr. T, that apart from holy books,



  51. 1 you also had some literature on how to lead a jihad?

    2 A. I had nothing about leading a jihad, no

    3 literature of that kind, but I had Islamic religious

    4 books.

    5 Q. Let me try and ask you a different question.

    6 In the books that you had, was "jihad" mentioned?

    7 A. Yes, it might be so.

    8 Q. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber what

    9 is "jihad"?

    10 A. "Jihad" is the holy war or the combat on the

    11 path of God.

    12 Q. Who is this holy war against?

    13 A. Mainly against evil.

    14 Q. What kind of evil -- I do not understand.

    15 A. Against injustice, against evil.

    16 Q. Mr. T, you said that you had been stopped on

    17 25 May in a vehicle, but you were not in the convoy but

    18 in front of the convoy.

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Witness T, what motivated you to drive in

    21 front of the convoy and not within the convoy?

    22 A. It was my mistake to listen to the other

    23 people, so I obeyed other people's advice and that is

    24 why that happened.

    25 Q. Does it mean that you had nothing to do with



  52. 1 the United Nations convoy; is that correct?

    2 A. But I wanted to go with those lorries,

    3 because the situation was very tense at that time --

    4 the situation between the BiH army and the HVO, and

    5 I kind of thought the best thing would be to go with

    6 the lorries in the convoy, but things were different --

    7 somebody told me, "Why do you not go in this car" and

    8 that is how it was.

    9 Q. Witness T, can you recall how the soldiers

    10 that arrested you on 25 May were dressed?

    11 A. The HVO soldiers were wearing camouflage

    12 uniforms.

    13 Q. Can you go back to that time period? Can you

    14 make a difference between the military police and the

    15 army?

    16 A. You mean their army?

    17 Q. I do not know what "their" is, I mean the HVO

    18 army?

    19 A. I cannot exactly, I cannot differentiate,

    20 because I did not pay any attention to it.

    21 Q. Are you aware that military police wear white

    22 belts on their uniforms?

    23 A. I did notice that.

    24 Q. Did those soldiers wear white belts?

    25 A. I do not remember.



  53. 1 Q. You said that you were handcuffed?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Where did these handcuffs come from -- do you

    4 know that or not?

    5 A. How can I know?

    6 Q. Witness T, you said that, when you were

    7 stopped at the checkpoint, you handed over your

    8 passport?

    9 A. I did.

    10 Q. Before that, you said that you arrived on the

    11 territory of the former Yugoslavia in 1982. During

    12 your stay in the former Yugoslavia, did you register

    13 yourself with the police authority?

    14 A. Yes, normally.

    15 Q. Did you get any identification papers from

    16 the police authorities?

    17 A. No, nothing in particular.

    18 MR. NIEMANN: I object.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann?

    20 MR. NIEMANN: I object on two bases. One on

    21 relevance -- I cannot see the relevance of this

    22 question at all and secondly again on the principle

    23 that it is outside the indictment period.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I will seize this

    25 opportunity to ask the witness: what passport have you



  54. 1 got on you?

    2 THE INTERPRETER: I was just changing my

    3 earphones.

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: My question was: what

    5 passport does the witness have on him?

    6 A. My Syrian passport.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, I think that

    8 you have to take into account the dates. Please

    9 proceed.

    10 MR. MIKULICIC: I will ask my question in a

    11 different way, so I can respect the time frame.

    12 On 25 May 1993, did you have any other kind

    13 of identification on you apart from the Syrian

    14 passport?

    15 A. I did not.

    16 Q. Before that day, or on that day -- in the

    17 time when you were arrested in Banja Luka, did you have

    18 any other identification given to you, apart from the

    19 Syrian passport?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. Did you have a residence permit?

    22 A. I did.

    23 Q. Is that not an identification card?

    24 A. The residence permit is actually a stamp that

    25 is put on your passport. It is not a separate



  55. 1 identification.

    2 Q. I understand. From that checkpoint on, you

    3 said that for a short time you stopped at Vitez?

    4 A. I think it was Vitez we stopped for five

    5 minutes.

    6 Q. And after that you came --

    7 A. They were probably given the order to

    8 continue towards Busovaca and Kaonik.

    9 Q. Is it correct that, in fact, during that

    10 journey you did not stop anywhere for any length of

    11 time?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Is it correct that the soldiers that were

    14 with you in the car beat you during the journey?

    15 A. Yes, they did.

    16 Q. What with?

    17 A. With rifle butts.

    18 Q. Did they injure you?

    19 A. There was no blood, but I received a few

    20 blows.

    21 Q. Did you have any pain from that -- did you

    22 suffer any pain?

    23 A. I do not know how -- you mean whether I felt

    24 any pain?

    25 Q. Did you feel any pain?



  56. 1 A. These were very hard blows in the head.

    2 Q. Did you suffer any pain?

    3 A. It was normal I felt pain.

    4 Q. Did anyone, upon your arrival at Kaonik,

    5 register you? Did any of the officials in the prison

    6 of Kaonik register you?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. But the first day when you arrived there?

    9 A. Nobody.

    10 Q. Around what time did you arrive at Kaonik?

    11 A. In the afternoon -- it might have been 3,

    12 3.30 -- it could have been between 2.30 and 3.30.

    13 Q. Nobody registered you then?

    14 A. Nobody.

    15 Q. When did the Red Cross register you?

    16 A. On the third or fourth day.

    17 Q. On your first day at Kaonik, were you

    18 approached by one of the guards -- one of the guards of

    19 the prison at Kaonik?

    20 A. How do you mean?

    21 Q. Did you talk to any of the guards in the

    22 Kaonik prison on the first day that you arrived there?

    23 A. I asked them not to hit me -- that is what

    24 I told the guards.

    25 Q. Witness T, can you differentiate the guards



  57. 1 at Kaonik from the HVO soldiers, or you cannot -- was

    2 there a difference?

    3 A. I can remember some of them.

    4 Q. Excuse me for interrupting you, I do not mean

    5 identifying them. I think -- how they were dressed?

    6 Were the guards at Kaonik wearing any kind of a uniform

    7 which would be different from the ones worn by the

    8 soldiers who brought you from the checkpoint?

    9 A. I cannot remember, but they were all wearing

    10 camouflage uniforms.

    11 Q. Did you notice any patches?

    12 A. Yes, the chequer boards.

    13 Q. What uniform are you speaking of?

    14 A. Of those people who brought me to the prison

    15 and those who were at the prison.

    16 Q. You said that, on the first day, upon

    17 arrival, they started immediately with physical abuse?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Can you say around what time -- you said you

    20 arrived there around 2.30?

    21 A. As soon as I arrived at the prison, some 10

    22 minutes later maybe, they sent four people, very

    23 heavily built, who started to --

    24 Q. Let us stop at these four huge men. Were

    25 these people the people you saw later on in the prison?



  58. 1 A. From time to time.

    2 Q. Were they guards at the prison?

    3 A. I cannot remember -- I remember the faces

    4 only.

    5 Q. Do you remember what was the number of the

    6 cell where you were locked in?

    7 A. I was just going to say that. The first cell

    8 during the first half time, I was in number 4. Let us

    9 say half the time I was in prison, I was in cell number

    10 4, and the second half time I was in cell number 6.

    11 Q. How many days did you spend in cell number 4?

    12 A. I cannot tell you exactly.

    13 Q. Roughly speaking?

    14 A. Roughly speaking, for about a month and a

    15 half.

    16 Q. In cell number 4?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. You have mentioned that, on that evening,

    19 once the four heavily-built men beat you up, correct me

    20 if I am wrong, some other men came to your cell?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Around what time?

    23 A. It was just getting -- it was at night fall.

    24 Q. Was there any electric light in your cell?

    25 A. There was.



  59. 1 Q. Witness T, you said that people entered the

    2 cell named Dzemo, Medugorac and Zlatko Aleksovski; is

    3 that correct?

    4 A. Yes, that is correct and there was a fourth

    5 person but I do not recall which one.

    6 Q. Witness T, how do you know the names of the

    7 people who entered your cell the first day upon your

    8 arrival?

    9 A. It is quite normal that I did not know their

    10 names on the first day but later on I learned their

    11 names from the other inmates, and also they would call

    12 one another in the corridor -- the guards that were

    13 working there.

    14 Q. Were those people introduced to you when you

    15 entered the cell?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. When did you learn their names from the other

    18 inmates?

    19 A. After about a month or some 25 days later.

    20 Q. Witness T, after that first day, you said

    21 that some soldiers came in and they questioned you?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Where did they question you?

    24 A. In the corridor when you get in there, in the

    25 left room.



  60. 1 Q. On the corridor or in one of the cells?

    2 A. As I said it was from the entrance of the

    3 corridor, the room on the left, that is where we sat

    4 down.

    5 Q. What kind of a room is it -- is it an office?

    6 A. Some kind of an office.

    7 Q. Did the soldiers introduce themselves, did

    8 they say who they were and where they came from?

    9 A. They did not introduce themselves -- no, no,

    10 I cannot recall that they introduced themselves.

    11 Q. Was the camp commander Zlatko Aleksovski

    12 present on that occasion?

    13 A. No, he was not present in that room.

    14 Q. Witness T, you are a religious man, are you

    15 not?

    16 A. I hope so.

    17 Q. You perform religious duties regularly?

    18 A. How do you mean?

    19 Q. Do you pray to God regularly?

    20 A. I try to do so.

    21 Q. Did you pray to God when you were at Kaonik?

    22 A. Secretly. Well, when there was nobody

    23 around, I did my prayers.

    24 Q. Witness T, who was with you in the cell

    25 number 4?



  61. 1 A. Hamdo Dautovic.

    2 Q. From the first day you were there?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. From the first day I am asking you.

    5 A. On the first day, I was on my own.

    6 Q. For how long a period of time?

    7 A. For some 10 days.

    8 Q. During the first 10 days when you were alone

    9 in your cell, did you pray to God?

    10 A. Yes, I did.

    11 Q. Was anybody preventing you from doing so?

    12 A. Had anybody seen me, they would probably

    13 prevent me.

    14 Q. I am not asking you about your conclusions

    15 I want to know exactly?

    16 A. When I would feel that everything was quiet

    17 and everybody was there I seized the occasion, I prayed

    18 to God, but when there were lots of people around I did

    19 not dare to do so.

    20 Q. I see. Witness T, what was the food like

    21 that you received at Kaonik?

    22 A. It was not bad.

    23 Q. What does that mean, "it was not bad"?

    24 A. They gave us beans, sometimes, but mostly

    25 beans, you know -- from time to time we would have rice



  62. 1 or something like that, like macaroni.

    2 Q. Mr. T, does your religion permit you to eat

    3 all food, or is there some food you are not allowed to

    4 eat?

    5 A. My religion forbids me from eating pork.

    6 Q. Did you eat any pork -- was it given to you?

    7 A. I do not know.

    8 Q. Did you ask anybody something like, "are you

    9 given pork which your religion does not permit you to

    10 eat?"

    11 A. I did not ask anybody. In such a situation,

    12 the religion actually forgives you if you eat something

    13 that you should not eat.

    14 Q. How many times a day were you given food?

    15 A. We were given breakfast, lunch and dinner.

    16 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, the Defence

    17 has no further questions.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, do you have

    19 any question in re-examination?

    20 MR. NIEMANN: No, your Honour, nothing in

    21 re-examination.

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Witness T, the Trial

    23 Chamber has no other questions for you. You have just

    24 completed your evidence. The International Criminal

    25 Tribunal would like to thank you for your testimony and



  63. 1 wishes you a safe journey to your country.

    2 (The witness withdrew)

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann?

    4 MR. MEDDEGODA: Your Honours, the next

    5 witness the Prosecution intends to call is witness

    6 number 7 in paragraph 4 of the inventory dated 20 March

    7 1998. This witness is Bosniak by ethnicity. He has

    8 indicated he has concerns for his safety and those of

    9 his family. In those circumstances the witness has

    10 requested I apply to the court for protective measures

    11 in the form of a pseudonym in the course of his

    12 testimony and also that the image of the witness's face

    13 be distorted during transmission.

    14 I have indicated this to my learned friend,

    15 Mr. Mikulicic, and I understand that the Defence has no

    16 objection to my application. In the circumstances,

    17 I move that your Honours be pleased to grant the

    18 protective measures I am seeking on behalf of this

    19 witness.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic?

    21 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, the Defence

    22 has no objections regarding protective measures for

    23 this witness.

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much,

    25 Mr. Mikulicic. In that case, protective measures are



  64. 1 granted. I think we can now ask the witness to be

    2 brought in.

    3 (The witness entered court)

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, Sir. Can

    5 you hear me well? You are now going to read the solemn

    6 declaration which the usher will hand to you.

    7 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that

    8 I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but

    9 the truth.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much, Sir.

    11 You may be seated.

    12 You are now going to answer the questions

    13 which Mr. Meddegoda, the Prosecutor, is going to ask

    14 you.

    15 WITNESS U

    16 Examined by MR. MEDDEGODA.

    17 Q. Witness, their Honours have granted

    18 protective measures that you have sought and therefore

    19 during the course of your testimony you will be known

    20 as Witness U -- your name will not be divulged and the

    21 image of your face will be distorted in transmission

    22 during the course of your testimony.

    23 May I also advise you not to refer to any

    24 details that would tend to divulge or reveal your

    25 identity or the identity of any of the members of your



  65. 1 family.

    2 Witness, I am now handing to you a sheet of

    3 paper on which a name is written, and may I ask you to

    4 look at the sheet of paper and confirm whether the name

    5 that appears on that sheet of paper is your name or

    6 not. (Handed).

    7 A. Yes.

    8 MR. MEDDEGODA: I tender that as the next

    9 Prosecution exhibit number under seal.

    10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number 104.

    11 MR. MEDDEGODA: You are Bosniak by

    12 ethnicity, witness?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Do you hear me, witness?

    15 A. Yes, yes.

    16 Q. You are Bosniak by ethnicity, witness?

    17 A. Yes, I am.

    18 Q. Your religion is Islam?

    19 A. Yes, it is.

    20 Q. Could you state what your age is?

    21 A. I am over 50 years old.

    22 Q. Would it be right if I say that you have just

    23 completed your 59th birthday?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Witness, prior to the war, in your part of



  66. 1 the country what type of work were you engaged in?

    2 A. I was a technician.

    3 Q. Were you at that time engaged in military

    4 duty, or work connected with military duties, military

    5 service, prior to the war?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. For all purposes, you were a civilian?

    8 A. Yes, I was. I was in the civilian

    9 protection.

    10 Q. Witness, I would ask you to cast your mind

    11 back to the events in your village in the early part of

    12 1993. Please do not give the name of your village, but

    13 could you tell this court what happened -- whether

    14 anything happened to you in March 1993?

    15 A. In March 1993, I was arrested by the HVO and

    16 I was taken to the camp -- to the Kaonik camp.

    17 Q. Witness, if I may ask you to focus your mind

    18 -- you were arrested on two occasions in early 1993,

    19 if I am right?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. And once was in March 1993 and when was the

    22 second time that you were arrested?

    23 A. On 16 April 1993.

    24 Q. When you were arrested the first time in

    25 March 1993 -- I am referring to the first arrest in



  67. 1 March 1993 -- what happened when you were arrested?

    2 A. I was going from Zenica home and I was

    3 arrested by the HVO near a wood at 1 o'clock in the

    4 afternoon -- they kept me until half past 5, they took

    5 me to a kind of valley and I managed to escape from 12

    6 of them, who were in combat gear, armed to the teeth.

    7 They shot at me, I had a hole that shot through my

    8 clothes just above the pocket. Fortunately,

    9 I survived.

    10 Q. You were arrested again for the second time

    11 on 16 April, as you said, of 1993?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. On that occasion, where were you when you

    14 were arrested?

    15 A. I was at home when all the people were

    16 rounded up. I stayed on in my house until Saturday --

    17 the people were rounded up on Thursday.

    18 Q. You were arrested on Saturday, 16 April?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And do you know who arrested you on 16 April?

    21 A. HVO.

    22 Q. What were those HVO dressed in?

    23 A. In military uniform.

    24 Q. Were they armed at the time they arrested

    25 you?



  68. 1 A. Yes, they were roaming around the village.

    2 I had hidden in a cellar, and they told me -- my wife

    3 came and told me that they had taken away two men, and

    4 then I came out and, as soon as they saw me, they

    5 captured me and took me to Kaonik immediately.

    6 Q. Do you remember the names of any of your

    7 captors?

    8 A. Yes. It was someone known as Papan -- I do

    9 not know his name exactly -- his father's name was

    10 Jure. The second one I used to see in the village but

    11 I did not know his name.

    12 Q. After being arrested, were you taken

    13 anywhere?

    14 A. They took me to the Kaonik camp.

    15 Q. Where in Kaonik camp were you taken to?

    16 A. I was first taken to some kind of a reception

    17 when I gave them my documents and from there I was

    18 taken to what was their camp, where I found a large

    19 number of people already there.

    20 Q. You said that you gave your documents. What

    21 are the documents that you handed over?

    22 A. Yes, there was my pass from my job -- that

    23 was a document that I had.

    24 Q. And thereafter you were taken to -- you said

    25 you were taken to the camp. What type of building were



  69. 1 you taken to after your document was taken from you?

    2 A. It is a building, semi-circular. There were

    3 four steps leading up to the door. Then there was a

    4 kind of landing in front of the door of a metre and a

    5 half. That is how it was.

    6 Q. Was it a kind of a hangar that you were taken

    7 to?

    8 A. Yes, a semi-circular hangar and there was

    9 another one in front of it.

    10 Q. When you went there, did you see other people

    11 detained in that hangar?

    12 A. I said already that there were many people in

    13 the hangar, and I was brought alone, and shoved in

    14 there.

    15 Q. Did you know any of the people who were in

    16 the hangar, or detained in the hangar?

    17 A. I knew many people in the hangar.

    18 Q. From your knowledge, to what ethnic group did

    19 those people belong?

    20 A. They were all Muslims. I did not know anyone

    21 else who was anything else but Muslim in the hangar.

    22 Q. Witness, do you remember what the conditions

    23 were like in this hangar that you were detained in?

    24 A. Terrible. I slept on pallets, they were made

    25 from wood, and, if I had some cardboard to put on it,



  70. 1 I considered myself lucky.

    2 Q. Was there heating inside the hangar?

    3 A. There was at the end. When you go into the

    4 hangar, there was a large kind of stove to the left.

    5 Q. Were there any toilet facilities?

    6 A. There was no toilet -- there was a can that

    7 we used for that purpose.

    8 Q. For how long were you detained in the Kaonik

    9 camp?

    10 A. 34 days, I personally spent there, and then

    11 I went on from there.

    12 Q. Throughout the period of your 34 days

    13 detention in the camp, were you detained in this same

    14 hangar?

    15 A. Sometimes in the hangar, but I spent more

    16 time digging.

    17 Q. How many times did you have to dig during the

    18 time you were detained in the camp?

    19 A. It is hard to tell how many times. Whenever

    20 they needed us, I had to dig, and sometimes I did not

    21 come back to the camp for two or three nights --

    22 I slept in some kind of stables.

    23 Q. Do you remember the places that you were

    24 taken for digging?

    25 A. Yes.



  71. 1 Q. Could you name those places that you were

    2 taken to, if you remember, whatever you remember?

    3 A. Yes. There was Kula, known as Gavro Kuce in

    4 the fields and then close to Jelinak, then I also spent

    5 a lot of time just near Gavro Kuce, I cannot remember

    6 the name now. I did a lot of digging there, but I have

    7 just lost it -- I cannot recall the name.

    8 Q. Whilst you were digging in -- were those

    9 places -- I withdraw that.

    10 Were those places that you were taken to for

    11 trench digging, were they on the front lines?

    12 A. They were all on the front-line. While you

    13 were digging, the earth would be thrown over your head

    14 and you would get used to it.

    15 Q. On whose front lines were you forced to dig?

    16 A. The HVO, of course. It is quite clear where

    17 I was and what I was doing.

    18 Q. Do you recall any shooting at the time you

    19 were digging on the front lines?

    20 A. Yes. There was constant shooting around us.

    21 Sometimes I had to bend down to escape being shot.

    22 There were times when we asked to take shelter, but

    23 they would not really let us.

    24 Q. Were you ever personally mistreated when you

    25 were digging on the front lines?



  72. 1 A. There were insults -- very serious insults.

    2 Sometimes, when we went digging, then it would happen

    3 that one knew one of the HVO soldiers, but they would

    4 turn their backs away so that we would not recognise

    5 them.

    6 Q. Do you remember seeing other prisoners

    7 mistreated also whilst trench digging?

    8 A. All of us suffered the same -- not just me.

    9 Q. Witness, during the period that you spent in

    10 Kaonik camp, did you happen to see prisoners being

    11 beaten in the camp?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 MR. MEDDEGODA: Your Honours, since I wish to

    14 get some details as to names of people who were in the

    15 camp, may I move that your Honours be pleased to move

    16 into private session, and I assume that my learned

    17 friend Mr. Mikulicic would also agree to the application

    18 that the court be pleased to move into private session.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, do you have

    20 any objections?

    21 MR. MIKULICIC: The Defence agrees with the

    22 Prosecution's motion -- no objection.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: In that case, we are going

    24 to go into private session. Can the technicians take

    25 the necessary steps, please?



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    20 (redacted)

    21 (12.25pm)

    22 (A short break)

    23 (12.45pm)

    24 (In open session)

    25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You may continue,



  77. 1 Mr. Meddegoda.

    2 MR. MEDDEGODA: Witness, during the time you

    3 were incarcerated in the Kaonik camp, did you have

    4 occasion to see the camp commander?

    5 A. Yes, I saw him on two occasions. I may have

    6 seen him more than that, because I was there the first

    7 time -- I did not look around much, but I saw him

    8 twice, once on the way back from digging and the second

    9 time when I went to collect some wood and I asked who

    10 it was and that is how it was, so I saw him twice.

    11 Q. And when you saw him, do you remember what

    12 type of dress he was dressed in?

    13 A. In military uniform of the HVO.

    14 Q. Witness, you said you spent 34 days in Kaonik

    15 camp; is that right?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. What was your physical condition and your

    18 physical appearance at the time when you left Kaonik

    19 camp?

    20 A. It is rather hard to answer that question.

    21 When I was taken digging, I never had any rest, to tell

    22 you the truth. I would come wet from perspiration, but

    23 I would not spend half an hour resting and then I would

    24 be taken back to dig, so that I lost a great deal of

    25 weight from that, from the thoughts, from the little



  78. 1 food that we received -- even when we were digging,

    2 there was very little.

    3 Q. After being released from Kaonik, where were

    4 you taken to?

    5 A. We were taken to a village nearby, where we

    6 were also held in captivity, but even though allegedly

    7 they let us go home, but we were there at their

    8 disposal whenever they needed us.

    9 Q. For how long were you kept in captivity

    10 there, in that village?

    11 A. The number of people declined, because some

    12 people risked it and went off.

    13 Q. For how long were you kept in captivity in

    14 that village?

    15 A. I stayed maybe more than 15 days -- something

    16 like that. I did not really count the days.

    17 MR. MEDDEGODA: I have no more questions in

    18 chief, your Honours.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, do you have

    20 any questions in cross-examination? I see it is

    21 Mr. Joka.

    22 Cross-examined by MR. JOKA

    23 Q. Thank you, your Honours.

    24 Mr. U, I am attorney Joka, Defence counsel for

    25 Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski. I have a number of questions for



  79. 1 you.

    2 We did not ask you what village you came from

    3 for your protection, so bear that in mind, but, tell

    4 me, the population of that village, was it mixed?

    5 A. I do not know which village you are referring

    6 to -- the one where I was detained?

    7 Q. No, the one where your house is, where you

    8 used to live?

    9 A. It was mixed.

    10 Q. How was it composed -- if you can tell us how

    11 many Muslims, how many Croats, were there any Serbs?

    12 A. About half/half.

    13 Q. Half/half of which -- who was not

    14 represented?

    15 A. There were very few Serbs.

    16 Q. What were the relations like between the

    17 Muslims and the Croats in the village?

    18 A. They were always good -- very good, before,

    19 until the conflict broke out.

    20 Q. You told us that you were in the Civil

    21 Defence?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Would you please explain to the Trial Chamber

    24 what that is for the benefit of all of us?

    25 A. Well, Civil Defence, before the conflict --



  80. 1 I do not know how to explain it. It was not anything,

    2 really. It was civil protection. I do not know how to

    3 explain it.

    4 Q. Yes, protection, but of whom -- against whom.

    5 Well, if you were in some sort of an organisation, then

    6 you must know what you were doing in the Civil Defence?

    7 A. I had my regular job and the Civil Defence

    8 was just when I was called. We would wear a blue

    9 uniform -- everybody was wearing it regardless of what

    10 ethnicity they were -- Croats, Serbs, Muslims, we all

    11 wore the same clothing.

    12 Q. So it is protection against natural disasters

    13 or something?

    14 A. Well, I really do not know, but everyone had

    15 the same protection in those days.

    16 Q. Very well. You were taken into custody on 16

    17 April 1993 -- that is what you told us?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. And you also said -- what day in the week was

    20 it?

    21 A. The 16th, a Saturday -- the night between

    22 Saturday and Sunday.

    23 Q. Are you quite sure of that?

    24 A. 100 per cent.

    25 MR. JOKA: Your Honours, I would like us to



  81. 1 check and eventually to admit into evidence the 1993

    2 calendar. It may prove to be useful later on and we

    3 can see from it that 16 April was a Friday. I know

    4 that Friday or Saturday is not very significant in this

    5 context, but I still think that it might be useful for

    6 us to have this in the record, a document of this kind.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I beg your pardon.

    8 Mr. Meddegoda, do you object to the admission of this

    9 calendar?

    10 MR. MEDDEGODA: No, your Honour, there are

    11 no objections to its admission.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well, we will admit

    13 it. Could the Registrar tell us the number?

    14 THE REGISTRAR: It is D5.

    15 MR. JOKA: May it please the court, I would

    16 like to ask the witness to be shown, on the ELMO,

    17 Exhibit 90. This is the aerial photograph of the

    18 compound for identification purposes. (Handed).

    19 Mr. U, can you find your way on the map?

    20 A. I am afraid I cannot see very well, so I do

    21 not think I could see much.

    22 Q. What, is the picture not clear enough for

    23 you?

    24 A. No, I cannot see well -- my eyesight is not

    25 too good.



  82. 1 Q. So you cannot tell us what this is?

    2 A. Well, probably you want me to show something,

    3 but, believe me, all I can see is the road. I cannot

    4 see any other details.

    5 Q. So, you cannot give us any comments regarding

    6 the buildings on this photograph?

    7 A. If you are interested, I can tell you from my

    8 knowledge of the area that I was brought there from the

    9 reception building --

    10 Q. I am sorry for interrupting you, but you have

    11 told us and the Trial Chamber and the rest of us that,

    12 upon arrival at the camp, you were stopped in a house

    13 where you handed in your document, so I wanted you to

    14 identify that house, if you could. It is on this

    15 photograph, I assume. Then you also told us you were

    16 put up in a semi-circular building so I wanted you to

    17 show us that if it is on the photograph. If you

    18 cannot, you cannot?

    19 A. No, I cannot see well, I am afraid. I need

    20 glasses or something, this way I cannot see.

    21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Joka, you could ask the

    22 witness to describe the building and then perhaps one

    23 could conclude from his description which building it

    24 was, instead of asking him to point to the building

    25 itself -- he could describe it.



  83. 1 MR. JOKA: Thank you for your suggestion, your

    2 Honour.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: My colleague, Judge Nieto

    4 Navia, has made a suggestion. Could you see on the

    5 ELMO, on the projector, could you try to do that,

    6 please? You could see -- can you see anything else

    7 there except the road. The question is whether you

    8 could see better on the ELMO than on the screen. Can

    9 you see there?

    10 A. It is a bit better, but, again, I could not

    11 really point to anything.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: In that case, continue to

    13 answer the questions put to you, by Mr. Joka, please.

    14 You may proceed, Mr. Joka.

    15 MR. JOKA: Thank you. Let us try and do the

    16 same, but in a different way. I should like to ask the

    17 witness to be shown photograph number 46 -- exhibit

    18 number 46.

    19 MR. JOKA: Tell us, Mr. U, have you seen this

    20 building before?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Could you tell us when?

    23 A. When I was taken to the camp.

    24 Q. Is that the building where you gave in your

    25 documents?



  84. 1 A. I think it was, because the building had two

    2 floors and I handed them in on the ground floor.

    3 Q. Which documents?

    4 A. I told you, my pass, as I had no other

    5 documents on me.

    6 Q. Whom did you give it to?

    7 A. The people who were responsible inside.

    8 Q. And who were they?

    9 A. The HVO, but I do not know their names.

    10 Q. Do you distinguish between the regular army

    11 and the military police?

    12 A. Well, yes, one does know what the military

    13 police is like.

    14 Q. How does one know?

    15 A. I assume by the uniform or some insignia.

    16 Q. Very well. Did the military police have

    17 dealings with you there, or the regular army?

    18 A. I came with this one who had brought me

    19 there. Of course, he told me to give them my

    20 documents. I did, and then he told me to go with him,

    21 and I went with him to the hangar.

    22 Q. So you do not know -- who gave you that pass,

    23 who issued with it?

    24 A. Who issued me with it -- the authorities of

    25 my company.



  85. 1 Q. What kind of a pass was it?

    2 A. Some kind of an identity card, because

    3 otherwise you could not go into that company for work

    4 without the document.

    5 Q. Can we now show to the witness the photograph

    6 number 34. Before you look at the photographs, you

    7 told us that you were in a semi-circular building?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Could you please tell us whether this

    10 semi-circular building is on this photograph -- on the

    11 right-hand side, if you look at the ELMO, it would be

    12 more clear for you to see?

    13 A. No, no, none of it -- it is neither this

    14 building here (indicating) nor this there

    15 (indicating). Really, it is not any of these.

    16 Q. Let me now ask you something about the guards

    17 at Kaonik. Did you notice whether those were young

    18 people, middle-aged, or elderly?

    19 A. It was slightly older people who were guards

    20 in front of the door.

    21 Q. Did you know these people?

    22 A. Well, I did know some of them --

    23 Q. I did not ask you about the names. Could you

    24 please tell us if there were any old age pensioners

    25 there as guards?



  86. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Was one of the guards the professor, Franjo

    3 Bagaric?

    4 A. I do not recall. I do not know whether he

    5 was a professor.

    6 Q. Out of the detainees at Kaonik, were there

    7 any Croat inmates -- do you know that?

    8 A. Well, where I was, personally, in that

    9 hangar, I did not learn about any Croat or any Serbs,

    10 there were only Muslims there.

    11 Q. In that hangar, you described to us how they

    12 were beating people. You told us that these were HVO

    13 members?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Do you know who they were?

    16 A. I do not know who they were, because I did

    17 not know them, but I was always trying to hide myself,

    18 so I tried to find some shelter.

    19 Q. Were those people appearing there regularly,

    20 or were there every time new faces?

    21 A. It was different -- sometimes the same,

    22 sometimes different people.

    23 Q. Were they guards, were they these pensioners?

    24 A. I did not see the guards or the pensioners.

    25 Q. You have told us today that you saw the camp



  87. 1 commander on two occasions?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. I am looking here at your statement, and it

    4 seems that you have seen him also when you were told to

    5 go out of the camp to the village of Skradno?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Who told you to go to Skradno?

    8 A. I do not know, but I know they were selecting

    9 people and the younger ones remained.

    10 Q. On that occasion, and on those two earlier

    11 occasions, you told us that the commander had some kind

    12 of a uniform on -- what kind of a uniform?

    13 A. It was not a civilian uniform, it was a

    14 military uniform. I have to say that I always tried to

    15 look right in front of me and not around.

    16 Q. What kind of uniform -- are they green

    17 uniforms, blue uniforms?

    18 A. Camouflage uniforms.

    19 Q. It was not a blue uniform?

    20 A. No, it was not a blue uniform.

    21 Q. Can you describe that uniform?

    22 A. Well, I was not really looking at it well,

    23 so --

    24 Q. Do you remember whether he had any kind of

    25 insignia on his uniform?



  88. 1 A. Yes, he had, but I did not look at those.

    2 I only saw --

    3 Q. How do you know he had if you had not looked

    4 at him?

    5 A. I asked him.

    6 Q. Could you please tell us what you know -- do

    7 you know whether he wore any kind of insignia on his

    8 uniform?

    9 A. I did not see.

    10 Q. Thank you. You described furthermore how you

    11 were transferred from the camp to the village of

    12 Skradno, if I am not mistaken. Has it got anything to

    13 do with Kaonik -- were you at Skradno guarded by the

    14 guards from Kaonik?

    15 A. They were always going through the village.

    16 There was a gun on the Tam van.

    17 Q. Did you have freedom of movement in that

    18 village?

    19 A. No, I would only go around in the yard, in

    20 the garden where I was, because I was bored.

    21 Q. Is that village within the prison compound?

    22 A. No, it is not.

    23 Q. Do you know when you were transferred to

    24 Skradno, on what date?

    25 A. I cannot recall exactly.



  89. 1 Q. And roughly speaking?

    2 A. I do not know -- I cannot really tell you

    3 about things I know nothing of.

    4 Q. After 10, 20, 30 days at Kaonik?

    5 A. I cannot tell you exactly -- I do not know

    6 how many days. I do not know when I was transferred.

    7 I did not take any notice of that.

    8 Q. Can you just tell the Trial Chamber whether

    9 you have any criminal record?

    10 A. How do you mean -- was I at any kind of a

    11 court?

    12 Q. You can go to court for various reasons.

    13 Were you accused of something and convicted of

    14 something?

    15 A. No, I was neither accused nor convicted of

    16 anything.

    17 MR. JOKA: The Defence has no further

    18 questions, your Honours.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Meddegoda, do you have

    20 any questions in re-examination?

    21 MR. MEDDEGODA: No questions, your Honours,

    22 in re-examination.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Witness U, the Trial

    24 Chamber has no further questions for you. You have

    25 just completed your evidence. Thank you very much for



  90. 1 coming here and have a safe journey home.

    2 We are now going to make a 15-minute break.

    3 That is necessary for logistical reasons. After that,

    4 we will come back for the status conference. We can be

    5 dressed in our ordinary clothes -- 15 minutes. My

    6 colleague wanted 20 minutes, but I think 15 minutes is

    7 enough for us. So, a 15-minute break now.

    8 (At 1.10 the matter adjourned)

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