1. 1 --- Monday, June 15th, 1998

    2 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

    3 (In open session)

    4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, ladies and

    5 gentlemen. Are the technicians and the interpreters

    6 ready? Very well.

    7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the case is

    8 IT-95-14/1-T, The Prosecutor versus Zlatko Aleksovski.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Mr. Dubuisson.

    10 Today we have before us for the Prosecution

    11 Mr. Niemann.

    12 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours please, my name

    13 is Niemann and I appear with my colleagues,

    14 Mr. Meddegoda and Ms. Erasmus, for the Prosecution.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And for the Defence,

    16 Mr. Mikulicic?

    17 MR. MIKULICIC: Good morning, Your Honours.

    18 I am Goran Mikulicic, and myself and Srdan Joka shall

    19 be for the Defence -- appear for the Defence.

    20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well. We'll resume

    21 with this matter. I think we have today before us a

    22 witness for the Defence. Is that not right,

    23 Mr. Mikulicic?

    24 MR. MIKULICIC: Your lordships, we shall

    25 begin to bring in witnesses. And our first witness is

  2. 1 Dr. Vesna Bilic.

    2 (The witness entered court)

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, Ms. Vesna

    4 Bilic. Do you hear me?

    5 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I ask that you read the

    7 solemn declaration, which the court usher will now show

    8 to you.

    9 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    10 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    11 truth.

    12 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much. Madam

    13 Bilic, you may now be seated. You will now respond to

    14 the questions put to you by Mr. Mikulicic. Thank you.


    16 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic

    17 Q. Good morning, Dr. Bilic.

    18 A. Good morning.

    19 Q. I am with my colleague, Mr. Joka. I am the

    20 lawyer for the accused Zlatko Aleksovski. You will be

    21 the witness before this Honourable Court, and we shall

    22 ask you some questions, and we should like to ask you

    23 to answer them to the best of your knowledge and

    24 ability.

    25 Dr. Bilic, will you please state for the

  3. 1 court the date and place of your birth?

    2 A. I was born on the 24th of November, 1957 in

    3 Busovaca.

    4 Q. What is your ethnic origin?

    5 A. I am a Croat.

    6 Q. Are you a practicing believer?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. What is your faith?

    9 A. I am a Roman Catholic.

    10 Q. Will you tell us something about your

    11 education?

    12 A. I graduated from the pharmaceutical faculty.

    13 Q. Where?

    14 A. In Sarajevo.

    15 Q. Do you remember when that was?

    16 A. In 1982.

    17 Q. And after the graduation you got a job where?

    18 A. Immediately at the health centre in Busovaca

    19 as a biochemist.

    20 Q. And throughout the time to this day you are

    21 still with the health centre in Busovaca?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Dr. Bilic, in what capacity did you work at

    24 the Busovaca Health Centre and something about your

    25 career?

  4. 1 A. In the beginning I worked as a biochemist in

    2 the diagnostic laboratory of the health centre in

    3 Busovaca, and as of 1991 I'm the director of the health

    4 centre.

    5 Q. We are making the short breaks because of the

    6 interpreters, so would you please slow down so the

    7 interpreters can keep up with you.

    8 So, as of 1991 you had the health centre at

    9 Busovaca. Will you tell us, briefly, what does the --

    10 what are the duties and responsibilities of the

    11 director of the health centre?

    12 A. Well, the director of the health centre is

    13 responsible for the complete -- for the whole activity

    14 of the health centre.

    15 Q. Do you -- can you remember how -- what was

    16 the staff, how large was the staff in the former half

    17 of 1993, roughly?

    18 A. Well, roughly -- when did you say?

    19 Q. 1993, during the conflicts.

    20 A. '93. About 30. I think that was the staff

    21 altogether.

    22 Q. And who were the personnel?

    23 A. Well, roughly, I think six physicians; of

    24 them two specialists, one stomatologist, biochemist,

    25 that is myself as a director, and some 15 other people

  5. 1 of paramedics of different profiles. That includes

    2 nurses, the midwives, x-ray technicians, and some

    3 auxiliary personnel, drivers, ambulance car and

    4 (unclear).

    5 Q. Was it the only medical care institution in

    6 Busovaca municipality?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Could you tell us what is the size of the

    9 population who used the services of the health centre,

    10 roughly, how many patients?

    11 A. Before the war, some 18.000 individuals used

    12 the services of this health centre. Afterwards, I just

    13 don't know. I cannot give you any figure.

    14 Q. Could you tell us what kind of health

    15 services did the health centre in Busovaca extend?

    16 A. The health centre in Busovaca provided

    17 primary health care.

    18 Q. Can you tell us what that means?

    19 A. Primary health care involves the population

    20 health care without hospital beds, so we do not -- we

    21 only had outpatients. We did not have any hospitalised

    22 patients there. It was organised as a gynaecological

    23 service, an obstetrical service. We had paediatrician,

    24 paediatrician care, general health care, then the

    25 emergency aid with all the accompanying services, that

  6. 1 is laboratories for diagnostics, x-ray diagnostics and

    2 dentistry surgery.

    3 Q. Dr. Bilic, you said that you had no hospital

    4 beds there, you could not admit anyone for

    5 hospitalisation. So if you came across such a case,

    6 what did you do?

    7 A. The health care centre in Busovaca then did

    8 whatever it could, and in specific conditions then

    9 referred those such cases to other hospitals.

    10 Q. Dr. Bilic, which were the hospitals that the

    11 health centre at Busovaca referred patients needing

    12 hospital treatment?

    13 A. At that time, that is in early 1993, it was

    14 only the hospital at Nova Bila.

    15 Q. And the Zenica Hospital, did you keep any

    16 contact with the Zenica Hospital before the war and in

    17 early 1993?

    18 A. Before the war and in early 1993. Before the

    19 war the health centre was part of the regional medical

    20 centre in Zenica. However, in early January, when the

    21 conflict broke out, we could not get there because the

    22 roads were closed.

    23 Q. Dr. Bilic, what equipment did the health

    24 centre have there for the primary health care? Do you

    25 think, as an expert, was this equipment adequate, were

  7. 1 there some shortcomings, or did you have enough of what

    2 you needed?

    3 A. In my personal opinion, before the war the

    4 equipment was very poor. And in early war, or in the

    5 beginning of the conflict in '93, and in'92, the health

    6 centre was shelled straight away, so the whole wing of

    7 the whole centre was destroyed. The power and water

    8 supply were also cut off, were destroyed. The working

    9 conditions were very difficult.

    10 Q. You say that in 1992 the health centre was

    11 shelled. Could you please explain to the Court what it

    12 was?

    13 A. It was bombed, that is the Municipality of

    14 Busovaca was bombed and two shells or missiles hit the

    15 health centre. It was the JNA.

    16 Q. So the building was bombed by the former JNA

    17 Air Force?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. When did it happen?

    20 A. It happened in April '92.

    21 Q. You say that at that time a part of the

    22 building, of the health centre, was practically

    23 devastated?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Did some equipment perish?

  8. 1 A. Yes, the gynaecological surgery was destroyed

    2 and the dentistry surgery was destroyed. But we had

    3 trouble with water supply, because missiles fell right

    4 in front of the building of the health centre and hit

    5 the water pipe, so that we were left without water for

    6 quite a long time.

    7 Q. But otherwise, could you tell us how many

    8 ambulance cars did the health centre have?

    9 A. At the time the health centre had only two

    10 cars.

    11 Q. Were they properly equipped? Was there

    12 enough fuel, spare parts and everything else?

    13 A. These were very old vehicles. I think they

    14 were not less than about ten years old. And as for the

    15 fuel for ambulance cars, we had difficult time in

    16 getting it.

    17 Q. Could you please describe the situation with

    18 the fuel? Could you readily go out into the field, in

    19 view of the state of the vehicles and fuel, or was it

    20 more -- rendered more difficult?

    21 A. It was really difficult and we used them only

    22 in particularly severe cases to transport them to the

    23 hospital at Nova Bila.

    24 Q. Am I correct in saying that in this first

    25 half of 1993, when -- therefore in the Municipality of

  9. 1 Busovaca, the army conflict broke out, is it then

    2 correct to say the health centre could not then go out

    3 with the ambulance cars into the field and work there?

    4 A. We could, but we had a very hard time.

    5 Q. Dr. Bilic, at that time -- I am all the time

    6 referring to this former half of '93, so at the time

    7 what were the supplies? Did you have enough medicines,

    8 food, electricity, water?

    9 A. At the time all forms of supplies were very

    10 bad, medicines and medical supplies came from all

    11 pre-war reserves, all pre-war stocks, because we had

    12 some stocks and a little -- and we were donated also a

    13 little bit, that is, these were donations from our

    14 people working abroad.

    15 But it was very difficult. All the supplies

    16 -- the delivery was very difficult because we were

    17 locked in, closed in. Food deliveries were also very

    18 difficult. What there was in the Municipality of

    19 Busovaca, we distribute among themselves and consumed

    20 among themselves.

    21 Q. You say it was very difficult to come by all

    22 that you needed. You said you were locked in. What

    23 does that mean? Would you please explain it?

    24 A. Well, it means that we could not get out from

    25 the territory of the Municipality of Busovaca.

  10. 1 Q. Why couldn't you get out of the territory of

    2 the Municipality of Busovaca?

    3 A. Because they were firing at us.

    4 Q. Dr. Bilic, you mentioned that as regards food

    5 supplies you ate the same kind of food in the

    6 Municipality of Busovaca. Where was that prepared?

    7 A. Well, that food was prepared in the barracks

    8 for all the people, for all people who were under

    9 labour directives, under labour obligation.

    10 Q. Could you tell us who does it refer -- whom

    11 do you mean? You said all people who were under labour

    12 obligation. You mean the health institution? Who

    13 else? What other services or institutions?

    14 A. Were all the services that had to do work,

    15 that is civil defence, prison, the municipal services.

    16 Q. So this food was prepared in the barracks?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. And then it was distributed from there to

    19 various points?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Dr. Bilic, you mentioned that the -- as a

    22 result of the bombing by JNA in April 1992, you had

    23 difficulties with water supply. Could you tell us

    24 something about electricity. How about the power

    25 supply?

  11. 1 A. Likewise, I mean, the same situation. It was

    2 very difficult. However, the health centre was

    3 fortunate enough that nearby the Dutch battalion was

    4 quartered and we were switched onto their generators so

    5 that the health centre in Busovaca had electricity

    6 throughout.

    7 Q. You said the Dutch battalion. You mean

    8 UNPROFOR forces?

    9 A. Yes. Yes.

    10 Q. Did you cooperate with UNPROFOR units there,

    11 apart from being switched onto their power generator?

    12 A. Well, yes, if we needed some medicine

    13 urgently, or if there was a doctor, a physician in the

    14 Dutch battalion, or a nurse, we could always get the

    15 particular medicine without any problem.

    16 Q. But they had their own medical service,

    17 didn't they?

    18 A. Yes, they did.

    19 Q. Dr. Bilic, when the armed conflicts started

    20 in '93, could you tell us when was it, roughly, when

    21 the first conflict -- when did the first conflict take

    22 place?

    23 A. The first conflict took place on the 21st of

    24 January '93, in the morning.

    25 Q. And what was it? Why do you remember that

  12. 1 date?

    2 A. Why? Well, it was a kind of a conflict

    3 between two sides.

    4 Q. What two sides and what kind of conflict? Of

    5 course you know that.

    6 A. Well, it was a conflict between the Muslim

    7 and the Croat side. It was in the morning -- it began

    8 at six o'clock in the morning. I knew nothing about

    9 it. I was at home. And only around eight o'clock

    10 could I make my way to the health centre, because fire

    11 came from all sides. And only the emergency service

    12 was at the health centre working. People stayed there

    13 and worked for 48 hours and they needed another shift,

    14 they needed to be replaced, but it was very difficult

    15 to get to the building because of the fire. But

    16 somehow we managed.

    17 Q. Tell us where did the fire come from? What

    18 direction?

    19 A. The health centre was fired at from above the

    20 health centre. That is where the fire came from, from

    21 the village, from Busovaca.

    22 Q. What is the name of the village?

    23 A. Hodzica.

    24 Q. Do you know who lived in that village, what

    25 was the ethnic origin of the population?

  13. 1 A. They were different. There were Muslims and

    2 there were Croats too.

    3 Q. Dr. Bilic, what was the ethnic structure of

    4 the employed or the personnel at the health centre at

    5 the time, before the conflict, on the eve of the

    6 conflict?

    7 A. The health centre, the ethnic structured

    8 varied. About 45 percent were Muslims, and Croats also

    9 accounted for about 45 percent and the rest were Serbs.

    10 Q. Do you remember if you noticed some strange

    11 phenomenon and unusual situation prior to the conflict,

    12 in view of the personnel of the health centre?

    13 A. I noticed it only after the conflict broke

    14 out, because the majority of the personnel who were of

    15 Muslim origin went on holidays at the time, and I had

    16 signed their leaves. That is, I allowed them to go and

    17 leave. And after the conflict broke out, I noticed

    18 that a majority of employed of the Muslim -- of Muslim

    19 origin were on holidays or had asked for days off or

    20 something. But, at any rate, they were not in the

    21 health centre, available at the health centre when the

    22 conflict broke out.

    23 Q. Did you try to interpret this afterwards?

    24 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

    25 Q. How did you interpret that?

  14. 1 A. Well, evidently something was about to happen

    2 that I knew -- had nothing about.

    3 Q. And do you think that they knew about it when

    4 they were leaving on holidays?

    5 A. Well, that was my personal impression.

    6 Q. Tell us, during those -- during the fighting,

    7 during the conflict, how was the service organised?

    8 How did the health centre function?

    9 A. It was very difficult because there were very

    10 few physicians, so we had only the emergency service

    11 working. We had two physicians working per day around

    12 the clock. And since there were few -- I mean, we took

    13 shifts every second day.

    14 Q. And what about the nurses?

    15 A. There were slightly more in number. They

    16 worked in teams of three or possibly four and they also

    17 took shifts.

    18 Q. Dr. Bilic, at that time what kind of health

    19 services did you offer to your patients, and what kind

    20 of patients would come to seek medical help to your

    21 institution?

    22 A. The patients who came to our health centre

    23 came from the territory of the Municipality of

    24 Busovaca. They were the people who at the time needed

    25 some kind of medical help.

  15. 1 Q. Did you differentiate between categories of

    2 patients according to the degree of emergency or some

    3 other criteria?

    4 A. The only criteria that can be applied is the

    5 degree of emergency. We couldn't apply any other

    6 criteria.

    7 Q. Dr. Bilic, since the health centre in

    8 Busovaca was the only medical institution in the area

    9 at the time, what kind of obligations did you have in

    10 terms of epidemiological protection? Could you explain

    11 the role of the medical centre in that sense?

    12 A. There has to be a department for

    13 epidemiological in each health centre, because

    14 everything that is happening at the municipality should

    15 be actually the work of that particular department.

    16 If, in case of diseases, the health centre is

    17 immediately advised of the situation, and they send out

    18 their team into the field to check out the situation.

    19 Q. Of course you had such type of service

    20 organised in your health centre even prior to the

    21 breakout of the conflict. Do you remember whether in

    22 your area of responsibility were any particular

    23 phenomena that were developing at that time, any

    24 particular cases that you had to intervene?

    25 A. Well, before the conflict there were no

  16. 1 epidemics. We had cases of hepatitis or jaundice, but

    2 it was only occasionally. It was not something that we

    3 had to worry about at the time. And in the area

    4 between Busovaca and Vitez there is a village where we

    5 had very often, perhaps maybe every four or five years,

    6 we would have a case of typhoid fever. But at that

    7 time we didn't have any such concerns.

    8 Q. Could you tell us whether in -- during the

    9 relevant times, that is the first half of 1993, was the

    10 situation different in any way? Did you have any cases

    11 of infectious diseases, something that would involve

    12 epidemiological prevention?

    13 A. No, no not before the conflict or at the

    14 beginning of conflict. The situation did not get worse

    15 in that respect because the health institution, the

    16 health centre in Busovaca was very active in that

    17 regard and we had numerous missions in that sense.

    18 Q. Dr. Bilic, you told us that communication was

    19 very difficult at that time, and that the supplies were

    20 not very good. Does that include clothes and footwear

    21 as well, and how did the population cope with that

    22 situation?

    23 A. Well, they managed to cope with the

    24 situation, but sometimes the civilian population also

    25 had to put on military clothes, military footwear,

  17. 1 uniforms and so on.

    2 Q. Does that mean that it was normal for the

    3 civilian population to wear parts of military clothing

    4 at that time?

    5 A. Yes, it was.

    6 Q. How did they obtain that military clothes?

    7 A. I don't know.

    8 Q. Dr. Bilic, do you know anything about medical

    9 services that were offered to the detainees of the

    10 Kaonik facility at the time?

    11 A. Yes, I was aware of that.

    12 Q. Do you know what the Kaonik facility was,

    13 what kind of facility was it? What was there?

    14 A. The Kaonik facility was a kind of prison.

    15 Q. Do you know what it was before?

    16 A. It was a JNA facility, the Yugoslav Peoples

    17 Army facility.

    18 Q. When did you, you personally and the health

    19 centre in Busovaca in general, when did you first come

    20 across patients who needed medical help and who were

    21 from the Kaonik facility?

    22 A. I believe that it happened in the second half

    23 of 1992.

    24 Q. The second half of 1992, what kind of

    25 patients were these people, people coming from the

  18. 1 Kaonik facility? Do you know anything about them?

    2 A. Well, the majority of them were Serbs and

    3 Croats of Serbian and Croatian ethnic background.

    4 Q. Let me clarify my question, do you know what

    5 statutes they had at the Kaonik facility, who were

    6 these people?

    7 A. I don't know.

    8 Q. Were they guards, detainees, or maybe

    9 civilians that happened to be there, do you know

    10 anything about that?

    11 A. No, I don't know anything about that.

    12 Q. Dr. Bilic, after the conflict broke out you

    13 said it was on the 25th of January, 1993. So after

    14 that time, when did you first come across people who

    15 needed medical help and who were from the Kaonik

    16 facility? Did you come across such people?

    17 A. Yes, I, did it was the end of January and the

    18 beginning of February, 1993.

    19 Q. And who were these people, could you tell us

    20 about that?

    21 A. What exactly do you mean?

    22 Q. Who were the persons that came to your

    23 facility -- no, I withdraw that question. Let me ask

    24 you the following. Who brought persons from the Kaonik

    25 facility to your health centre?

  19. 1 A. Well, these people were brought by guards and

    2 sometimes by the chief of the prison, by the warden of

    3 the prison.

    4 Q. You mentioned the warden, do you know who

    5 that person was?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. What's his name?

    8 A. Zlatko Aleksovski.

    9 Q. Do you know him personally?

    10 A. Yes, I do.

    11 Q. Could you recognise him in this room?

    12 A. Yes, I could.

    13 Q. Could you please, for the record, point to

    14 the person that you recognise as Zlatko Aleksovski?

    15 Could the record please reflect that the witness has

    16 pointed to the accused. Dr. Bilic, when did you first

    17 meet Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski, did you know him before

    18 these events that took place at the beginning of 1993?

    19 A. No, I didn't know him before that, and I met

    20 him, I don't remember the exact date, but it was in

    21 late January, early February, 1993.

    22 Q. Can you remember the circumstances in which

    23 this meeting took place?

    24 A. Well, Mr. Aleksovski, as the warden of the

    25 prison, came to a meeting, to my office. We were

  20. 1 supposed to agree on the ways and types of medical

    2 protection for the persons who were detained in the

    3 prison facility. We wanted to establish whether we can

    4 admit these people, on what conditions and so on.

    5 Q. Of course you cannot remember the exact date,

    6 you told us it was in late January, beginning of

    7 February. But could you tell us whether this was

    8 before the break out of conflict or after the conflict?

    9 A. It was immediately after the conflict broke

    10 out.

    11 Q. Dr. Bilic, do you remember how Mr. Aleksovski

    12 was dressed on that occasion?

    13 A. I couldn't exactly tell you how he was

    14 dressed. Sometimes he would wear military shirts and

    15 military trousers and sometimes he also worry civilian

    16 jacket or shirt.

    17 Q. Do you remember if he, when he worry parts of

    18 military uniform, if he had any insignia on that

    19 clothes, any military insignia?

    20 A. As far as I can remember, he did not.

    21 Q. You said that he came to a meeting with you

    22 so that you can agree on types of medical services to

    23 be offered to these people, what exactly did you agree

    24 upon?

    25 A. I can't remember exactly, but I know we were

  21. 1 discussing conditions, general conditions at that time

    2 and I remember that we agree that people could be

    3 brought as patients at any time from the Kaonik

    4 facility to the health centre in Busovaca around the

    5 clock.

    6 Q. That was the type of organisation you have in

    7 general all the time?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Who would bring patients from Kaonik to the

    10 medical centre?

    11 A. Well, I was not directly involved with

    12 patients, but very often I saw guards bringing people

    13 in and a few times I saw Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski. He

    14 also brought patients from the prison to the health

    15 centre.

    16 Q. Were you ever present when a vehicle would

    17 come to the health centre and when these patients were

    18 brought into the building, did you see something like

    19 that?

    20 A. Yes, I did.

    21 Q. What kind of vehicle was that? A vehicle

    22 that brought patients from Kaonik to the medical

    23 centre, do you remember that?

    24 A. Yes, I do. I remembered that that vehicle

    25 was always in better condition than our emergency

  22. 1 vehicles. As for the specific type and model of the

    2 vehicle, I can't remember that.

    3 Q. Was it a car or a lorry?

    4 A. There used to be a car on several occasions,

    5 but sometimes they would also bring people in a van.

    6 Q. Dr. Bilic, these people who were brought to

    7 the health centre for treatment, were they handcuffed,

    8 were they tied up, was their freedom of movement was

    9 restricted in any way?

    10 A. As I already told you, I was not working

    11 directly with the patients, so I couldn't observe

    12 that. But sometimes in passing as much as I could see,

    13 I don't think that they were tied.

    14 Q. Did you ever see what kind of procedure was

    15 followed when they were brought to the health centre?

    16 Would they also wait in the waiting room as other

    17 patients or was it organised in some other way? Do you

    18 know anything about that?

    19 A. No, I don't know what kind of procedure it

    20 was, but I believe that if the physician was available,

    21 if we didn't have, if he didn't have another patient, I

    22 think that these persons could be immediately admitted

    23 to the physician's office. If the physician was busy

    24 with some other patient, then I presume they would have

    25 to wait in the waiting room.

  23. 1 Q. This means that they would be in the waiting

    2 room waiting alongside other patients?

    3 A. Yes, yes that's correct.

    4 Q. Dr. Bilic, what was the general condition of

    5 health of these people who were brought from Kaonik to

    6 the health centre, what was your impression when you

    7 saw them as patients? Judging by the way they looked

    8 were they in any way different from other patients who

    9 sought medical health at your institution and I refer

    10 to their physical appearance, the way they looked and

    11 so on.

    12 A. Well, I never noticed any particular,

    13 anything particular that would draw my attention, I

    14 mean these people were dressed normally as all of us.

    15 They appear to me normal. I didn't notice anything

    16 particular, any deviations from what was normal at the

    17 time.

    18 Q. Do you know what kind of complaints they

    19 had? What kind of medical problems they had and what

    20 kind of help and treatment was offered to them?

    21 A. Well, since I am not a physician, I cannot be

    22 very specific. I just know that they suffered from

    23 some chronic diseases and complained of such diseases

    24 as far as I know. Things like high pressure, ulcer,

    25 some kind of chronic diseases.

  24. 1 Q. Dr. Bilic, did you recognise amongst these

    2 people any one to whom your medical centre had offered

    3 services prior to the conflict?

    4 A. Yes, I would recognise from time to time a

    5 number of such people.

    6 Q. Can we therefore say that they were your

    7 regular patients?

    8 A. Yes, yes.

    9 Q. And that they suffered from some chronic

    10 disease?

    11 A. Yes, they were just regular patients and most

    12 of them were known to me.

    13 Q. Dr. Bilic, you mentioned that your medical

    14 centre, as the only medical institution in the area,

    15 was also responsible for the epidemiological and

    16 sanitary situation in the area?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Did you have any such interventions at Kaonik

    19 as a medical institution?

    20 A. Yes, we did. Mr. Aleksovski came to see us

    21 on one occasion and he asked us to send epidemiological

    22 disease control team to the facility at Kaonik so that

    23 they would carry out a disinfection of the premises.

    24 Q. Was that carried out?

    25 A. Yes, and I remember that that was conducted

  25. 1 on two occasions and I was present on -- at one

    2 particular occasion.

    3 Q. Dr. Bilic, you said on two occasions. What

    4 period of time do you have in mind?

    5 A. Well, I don't remember exactly, I think it

    6 was in February, and maybe two or three months later.

    7 Q. In which year?

    8 A. In 1993.

    9 Q. Therefore we are talking about the year 1993

    10 all the time. As the head of the medical centre and

    11 the person responsible for the epidemiological

    12 situation in the field, were you aware at the time that

    13 at the Kaonik facility there were cases of skin disease

    14 and something similar that you would have to react to?

    15 A. I was not aware of that. In case that there

    16 were such cases at the time, of course, we would have

    17 been advised of that. They would have -- they should

    18 have informed of us that. But I was never informed of

    19 such problems, therefore, I presume that there weren't

    20 any in that sense.

    21 Q. When you say you were not informed, who do

    22 you have in mind?

    23 A. Well, I am referring to all the medical

    24 personnel from the epidemiological service, people who

    25 went there, to carry, to conduct the disinfection.

  26. 1 They didn't notice anything improper.

    2 Q. Dr. Bilic, you said that you once went to

    3 Kaonik?

    4 A. Yes, I did go to Kaonik myself.

    5 Q. Do you remember when it was?

    6 A. I cannot give you the exact date, but I

    7 believe it was on the first occasion when we went

    8 there.

    9 Q. I think you mentioned February, 1993?

    10 A. Yes, I did.

    11 Q. Could you describe that visit to Kaonik, was

    12 it the first time that you went to Kaonik or had you

    13 been there before?

    14 A. No, it was the first time. For me the

    15 situation was normal bearing in mind the conditions in

    16 the territory of the Municipality of Busovaca at that

    17 time.

    18 Q. Dr. Bilic, could you tell us more about that

    19 visit, why did you go there, who invited you, who took

    20 you there and where exactly did you go and what was the

    21 kind of situation that you found there?

    22 A. When Mr. Aleksovski came to the health centre

    23 and when we asked for our help, when he asked the

    24 medical service to check the epidemiological situation

    25 at the prison facility, we went there, there was a team

  27. 1 of people who went there and I was with them. We went

    2 there by car. It was our vehicle belonging to the

    3 medical centre. We went to that facility, we had a

    4 tour of all premises of the facility and we carried out

    5 disinfection.

    6 Q. Do you remember which particular building you

    7 visited?

    8 A. We saw every building of the facility,

    9 including premises where people were detained.

    10 Q. In your opinion, as an expert, what was the

    11 epidemiological situation in these premises?

    12 A. I believe that the situation was normal. If

    13 you have in mind the prevailing conditions in

    14 Busovaca. I don't think it was any different from what

    15 was normal at the time.

    16 Q. During that visit, did you come across any

    17 medical phenomena that would point out the cases of

    18 some skin disease, for example lice and other types of

    19 infectious diseases?

    20 A. No, we didn't find any such cases.

    21 Q. Can I therefore say it was some kind of

    22 preventative action?

    23 A. Yes, yes.

    24 Q. Dr. Bilic, did you have an opportunity to

    25 inspect toilets?

  28. 1 A. Yes. And the toilets were normal. I mean

    2 they were just like other rooms, other premises of that

    3 facility.

    4 Q. Could you be more specific, what do you mean

    5 by that?

    6 A. Well, I mean that it was not dirty. That it

    7 was -- I don't know what else to say.

    8 Q. Was there anything particular, anything that

    9 would be alarming to you as an employee of the health

    10 centre?

    11 A. No, no. There was no need for us to react in

    12 such sense. We just had this simple action that we had

    13 to conduct in order to prevent the spreading of skin

    14 diseases.

    15 Q. Am I correct, therefore, in thinking that

    16 such type of preventative actions were always conducted

    17 by your institution on places where a number of people

    18 were accommodated together?

    19 A. Yes, it was the normal type of action.

    20 Q. Could you tell whether there were any other

    21 such facilities in the territory of your municipality

    22 where similar actions were conducted?

    23 A. Well, we did the same everywhere, in all

    24 places where a number of people were put together. For

    25 example, in refugee centres, in kitchens where food was

  29. 1 prepared for a large number of people and so on.

    2 Q. Dr. Bilic, when you were at Kaonik at the

    3 time did you have opportunity to see people who were

    4 detained there? Did you see any of them?

    5 A. Yes, I did.

    6 Q. Did you speak with them?

    7 A. No, I didn't.

    8 Q. You said you saw them, could you describe the

    9 condition they were in to the best of your

    10 recollection? It was a long time ago, I know.

    11 A. Well, I think that their condition was normal

    12 for the type of facility they were in.

    13 Q. Did you notice any cases of malnutrition?

    14 A. No, I didn't.

    15 Q. Did you notice, perhaps, cases of neglect of

    16 physical appearance?

    17 A. No, I didn't.

    18 Q. What about their clothes and footwear, were

    19 they in any worse condition than the general condition

    20 in the area?

    21 A. No, I didn't notice that.

    22 Q. Can I, therefore, conclude that these people

    23 appeared to you as everybody else in that particular

    24 area, that particular time?

    25 A. Yes.

  30. 1 Q. Did you see any visible injuries? Any

    2 wounded people?

    3 A. No, I didn't notice any such cases.

    4 Q. Dr. Bilic, did you at any later point, I mean

    5 after February 1993, did you visit Kaonik or was it, or

    6 was that the only occasion that you went there?

    7 A. That was the only occasion I went there.

    8 Q. What about your personnel, your staff?

    9 A. Yes, they went there once again to conduct

    10 fumigation and very often people would be treated at

    11 home. I mean, doctors, physicians, would go to the

    12 Kaonik facility with a nurse to conduct medical

    13 examination if it was necessary.

    14 Q. Was it something extraordinary or was it

    15 normal, usual practice?

    16 A. It was usual if the physician was available.

    17 Q. Dr. Bilic at the beginning of your testimony

    18 you mentioned that your medical facility was in charge

    19 of primary health care and whenever you would come

    20 across a patient whose condition required specialist

    21 approach, you would refer such patients to hospitals in

    22 Zenica and then afterwards in Nova Bila when the roads

    23 were closed. Do you remember an occasion when you

    24 transported or sent patients to Zenica in your

    25 ambulance car? Do you remember any such event?

  31. 1 A. I remember that on the day when the conflict

    2 broke out, that is the 25th of January, 1993, I

    3 remember that we drove, I mean the driver of the

    4 medical centre, he took a couple of patients to Zenica

    5 to hospital. After that, he would return from the

    6 Zenica hospital without patients. But on one occasion

    7 he was stopped, he was harassed and the ambulance was

    8 taken away from him. He was stopped at a checkpoint, I

    9 believe it was a Muslim checkpoint, so it was the

    10 Muslims then who stopped him.

    11 Q. And what happened to the driver?

    12 A. They harassed him for about two or three

    13 hours. He was with those men and then they released

    14 him and he walked for awhile and then found somebody to

    15 give him a lift to Busovaca.

    16 Q. And what about the ambulance car?

    17 A. They seised it and we never learned about its

    18 whereabouts.

    19 Q. After that event, did you ever transport your

    20 patients to Zenica? Was it possible?

    21 A. No, it was not and we did not dare because we

    22 were left with only one ambulance car, so if even if we

    23 did send it and passed all those checkpoints we could

    24 then lose that one car. So we stopped sending them

    25 there, we continued to refer them to the hospital at

  32. 1 Nova Bila.

    2 Q. Could you tell us what kind of patients did

    3 you refer to hospitals, what were their complaints?

    4 A. I don't really remember what were the health

    5 problems, but I think it was a mere cardiac infraction

    6 or hypertension or something, I can't remember.

    7 Q. Dr. Bilic, at the time, did your health care

    8 centre also treat HVO soldiers? Did they come to the

    9 health centre?

    10 A. Yes, they did, because it was the only

    11 medical institution which could treat patients.

    12 Q. Did you notice anything amongst HVO soldiers

    13 which had to be treated?

    14 A. Yes, I did.

    15 Q. So what did you do?

    16 A. Well, whatever we could do. And we could not

    17 treat them further, then we referred them to the Nova

    18 Bila Hospital.

    19 Q. If we are talking about HVO men. Did you

    20 have any instances of extending treatment or helping or

    21 seeing a soldier with the markings HV, not HVO?

    22 A. No, I did not.

    23 Q. During all these events did you ever see some

    24 soldiers with the markings HV?

    25 A. No, I did not. Personally, I did not.

  33. 1 Q. Dr. Bilic, during all the while that we are

    2 referring to, and that is the first half of '93, did

    3 you have any contact with Zlatko Aleksovski?

    4 A. Yes, I did. Quite often when Mr. Aleksovski

    5 would come along, then we would greet one another.

    6 Q. But apart from the first understanding about

    7 services rendered, did you have any more of such

    8 things?

    9 A. Yes. But I can't remember all the details

    10 and all the time he visited us.

    11 Q. Could you describe -- could you tell us

    12 something about the frequency of these?

    13 A. Well, perhaps once a week or once a fortnight

    14 or once in ten days. I don't know.

    15 Q. Apart from these personal contacts, could you

    16 also communicate by telephone?

    17 A. Yes, we could.

    18 Q. Did you then communicate by telephone?

    19 A. We did, when necessary.

    20 Q. Dr. Bilic, did the health services extended

    21 by your health centre vary between, shall I call them

    22 civilian patients and those who came from the Kaonik

    23 facility, did these standards vary as to the treatment?

    24 A. No. There was no difference because it is

    25 simply inadmissible in health services.

  34. 1 Q. Dr. Bilic, those patients who came from

    2 Kaonik, you said they had some chronic, they suffered

    3 from some chronic ailments mostly. You must have been

    4 prescribing some treatment for them and medicines.

    5 Now, how was that organised?

    6 A. How the health centre organised it. Well, if

    7 a patient came to us with -- complaining of a chronic

    8 disease, then we, that is the physicians, would

    9 prescribe their treatment, and it was provided to a

    10 patient at the health centre if it concerned some

    11 injections or something else, or if not, there was also

    12 a pharmacy at the health centre, so that we would issue

    13 them pills or whatever for these patients. Or for

    14 those people from Kaonik, we gave them to the guards so

    15 they would administer those medicines to them at

    16 prescribed times.

    17 Q. Dr. Bilic, you mentioned that at that time

    18 there were how many physicians did you say?

    19 A. At that time there were six physicians.

    20 Q. Do you remember who that was?

    21 A. Dr. Nada Petrovic, Dr. Dragica Akrap-Raos,

    22 Dr. Srdjana Markovic, Dr. Bernardica Mioc, Dr. Zvonimir

    23 Stipac.

    24 Q. Many of these colleagues, are they still with

    25 the health centre or not?

  35. 1 A. Yes, they are. Dr. Petrovic is there. She

    2 is a gynaecologist.

    3 Q. Dr. Raos Akrap and Dr. Stipec Zvonimir and

    4 Dr. Bernardica Mioc and Srdjana Markovic are not there

    5 any longer?

    6 A. No, they are not.

    7 Q. Do you know when a particular service

    8 rendered to patients either from Kaonik or other cases,

    9 did those -- did the physicians provide some

    10 documentation, I mean prescriptions or some case

    11 history, a paper where they would write out the

    12 diagnosis?

    13 A. Yes, it was -- I mean, it was on record, but

    14 we had so many problems that we did not have the proper

    15 forms. But somehow we did find time to put a record,

    16 all the patients who came to see us. And since we had

    17 our pharmacy for oral medicines, then naturally, of

    18 course, we had to justify these prescriptions. So

    19 physicians had to issue prescriptions which they --

    20 with which the patients that went to the pharmacy and

    21 that those prescriptions were kind of a certificate

    22 that a particular medicine had been issued.

    23 Q. Dr. Bilic, I shall show you now some of the

    24 documents, doctoral documents, the documents issued by

    25 doctors, and I shall ask you to comment on them; that

  36. 1 is, tell me if they were issued by people who worked at

    2 the health centre at the time, and what kind of

    3 complaints are referred to in these documents.

    4 Dr. Bilic, I shall ask you now that you try

    5 to read each one of these documents. They are written

    6 in -- you know, in the notorious doctors handwriting

    7 which nobody can read apart from their authors. But

    8 can you please try to do that and tell us what it is

    9 about.

    10 A. Ilijas Krivosija, 1942. That must be the

    11 year of his birth. Yes. Diagnosis, herniated disk.

    12 Spared from work and flat cot, flat bed.

    13 Q. Can you tell us who issued it?

    14 A. It was Dr. Mioc who issued it.

    15 Q. She was in the employ of the health centre?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Thank you. We can proceed to the second

    18 document. So this is a document D18.

    19 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, this is the first

    20 time we've seen these documents and there is no

    21 indication of what period they relate to, from what I

    22 can see. Some of them may do, but certainly the

    23 document we just looked at doesn't. What relevance it

    24 is -- I mean, if it's not relating to anyone from

    25 Kaonik, I fail to see the relevance of it.

  37. 1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic.

    2 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, your Lordships. I

    3 shall ask the witness if she could tell us what

    4 timeframe do they pertain to.

    5 Q. Dr. Bilic, looking at this first document,

    6 could you identify the patient; that is, do you know

    7 where he came from and what time period does it refer

    8 to?

    9 A. Yes, I can, because I know that particular

    10 patient personally, and this was this time, the first

    11 or the second day of the conflict, since the outbreak

    12 of the conflict. So this could have been the 25th of

    13 January or the 26th of January 1993, because

    14 Dr. Bernardica Mioc was on duty at the time.

    15 Q. I see. And will you please try to do the

    16 same with every other document that you go through. If

    17 you can, of course.

    18 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I'm sorry to interrupt

    19 you. Are you now satisfied with the response,

    20 Mr. Niemann?

    21 MR. NIEMANN: Well, no, Your Honour, because

    22 I have no idea if it has any connection whatsoever to

    23 Kaonik. Your Honours, there may be a reason outside of

    24 giving treatment to people who weren't in Kaonik, if

    25 Mr. Mikulicic would care to develop that, then I

  38. 1 probably would be able to remove my objection. But at

    2 the moment it looks as though it's just a medical form

    3 in relation to somebody in the area, it would seem, at

    4 that time.

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic and

    6 Mr. Niemann, I believe we arrived at a time where we

    7 might take a recess. I believe that Mr. Mikulicic

    8 could, before presenting these documents, state and

    9 inform us, because as the Prosecution has just stated,

    10 it is seeing this document for the first time. So

    11 perhaps it would be appropriate to state that with this

    12 document I wish to prove such and such thing. And then

    13 at that point say that, for all of us, that the

    14 document be presented on the ELMO so that all of us can

    15 be able to follow the reading then by Dr. Bilic.

    16 Having made that proposal, I think we might then take a

    17 20 minute recess and then resume with that proposal.

    18 If you are in agreement with that.

    19 Very well, 20 minutes.

    20 --- Proceedings recessed at 10.45 a.m.

    21 (The witness entered court)

    22 --- On resuming at 11.12 a.m.

    23 (The accused entered court)

    24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well, now let us

    25 resume. Before doing so, I would like to tell you that

  39. 1 next Wednesday the Tribunal will be sitting in the

    2 afternoon. So we're going to be keeping the same

    3 time. It will be from 13.30 until 17.30.

    4 Mr. Mikulicic and Mr. Niemann, if it is appropriate or

    5 convenient for you rather.

    6 MR. NIEMANN: Yes.

    7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well, Mr. Mikulicic,

    8 regarding our last proposal, will it be possible to

    9 resume on that note? I think in that way, Mr. Niemann

    10 then will withdraw his objection.

    11 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, let me first

    12 thank you for the kind suggestion to the Defence in

    13 connection with the documents we proposed. I will

    14 gladly accept it. Let me first state the purpose as to

    15 why we wanted to introduce these documents.

    16 Our objective was for the witness, on the

    17 basis of her recollection and her knowledge of certain

    18 patients. We must bear in mind that it was a small

    19 town where people knew each other very well, so that

    20 she can therefore confirm whether these people were

    21 patients who had been brought to Kaonik for purposes of

    22 medical treatment or not. This is one thing.

    23 The other thing is that the Defence wants to

    24 show with these documents that medical services were

    25 also offered to Muslims, because all these people are

  40. 1 of Muslim ethnic origin. We want to show that no other

    2 standards were applied. And also on the basis again of

    3 the recollection of the witness, we would like to show

    4 that these documents were issued at that particular

    5 time in cases where the document does not bear a

    6 specific date. If the witness can remember, of

    7 course. If she doesn't, she will say so. I don't know

    8 whether my explanation is satisfactory.

    9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann. Do you have

    10 anything you would like to add generally speaking?

    11 MR. NIEMANN: On the basis of their merely to

    12 demonstrate that they were Muslim patients who were

    13 treated along with other patients, we don't have any

    14 objection to that, Your Honour.

    15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you for your

    16 understanding and cooperation. You may now resume, Mr.

    17 Mikulicic, thank you.

    18 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    19 Q. If I can ask the assistance of the usher in

    20 accordance with the suggestion of the Chamber, can the

    21 document 18-A be placed on the ELMO, please.

    22 We can all see what document we are referring

    23 to. Dr. Bilic, can we come back to this document and

    24 could you tell us if you personally know the patient by

    25 the name of Ilijas Krivosija?

  41. 1 A. Yes, I know him, he was my neighbour.

    2 Q. On the basis of this particular document, do

    3 you know when this document was issued and do you know

    4 where Mr. Krivosija was at the time this document was

    5 issued?

    6 A. I know that this document was issued at the

    7 health centre in Busovaca. There is no date on the

    8 document, but I believe it was on the 25th or 26th of

    9 January, 1993, when Dr. Bernardica Mioc was on duty,

    10 together with Dr. Nada Petrovic.

    11 Q. Do you know whether this patient was brought

    12 to the health centre from Kaonik?

    13 A. As far as I remember he was brought from the

    14 Kaonik prison.

    15 Q. The therapy that was recommended for this

    16 particular patient, does that remind you of anything?

    17 What does it tell you?

    18 A. This means that this patient was supposed to

    19 be taken back by the people who have brought him to the

    20 health centre and that this therapy should be provided

    21 to him at the prison facility. Because this was

    22 necessary in view of his diagnosis.

    23 Q. Could you tell us once again what diagnosis

    24 it was?

    25 A. Herniated disk.

  42. 1 Q. Could you explain to the Chamber whether this

    2 a chronic disease or not?

    3 A. I'm sorry, I am not a physician, but I think

    4 it was a chronic disease.

    5 Q. Thank you. Can we now move on to the next

    6 document, please. Again, Dr. Bilic, could you give us

    7 some information about this document. How would you

    8 comment this particular document?

    9 A. I don't know this patient. But I can say

    10 that because of the therapy that was recommended here,

    11 house treatment, I think that he was a prison

    12 detainee. Because why else would the physician put

    13 here house treatment if the patient was at home?

    14 Q. Thank you. Could we move on to the next

    15 document, please, Mr. Usher.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: This is document D-18/B.

    17 MR. MIKULICIC: Document 18 or 19?

    18 THE REGISTRAR: No, no, with regard to all of

    19 these, we're referring to document D-18/A, B, C and so

    20 on.


    22 Q. Dr. Bilic, this document was issued for the

    23 patient by the name Smet Medjuseljac, do you know that

    24 person?

    25 A. Yes, I know him not personally, but I knew

  43. 1 him. He used to be a high school teacher in Busovaca

    2 before the war.

    3 Q. What kind of disorders or illnesses did he

    4 suffer from?

    5 A. Again, I am not a physician, but judging from

    6 the diagnosis that's mentioned here, I think he

    7 suffered from ulcer, duodenal ulcer. Therapy is

    8 indicated here. Again, the patient should be seated or

    9 should lie on a flat surface. And I think that this

    10 particular patient was also one of the Kaonik

    11 detainees.

    12 Q. Who issued this particular document?

    13 A. Dr. Petrovic Nada who was together on duty

    14 with Dr. Mioc during these days.

    15 Q. What time period are we talking about here?

    16 A. It must have been on the 25th or 26th of

    17 January, 1993.

    18 Q. Thank you, can we move on to the next

    19 document, please. Dr. Bilic, the same question as

    20 before.

    21 A. This is Ejub Buljina, diagnosis is a 4 to 5,

    22 I don't know exactly which type of classification this

    23 is. I believe this is the old international

    24 classification of diseases. And, again, the therapy

    25 that is indicated here, house treatment for the

  44. 1 duration of five days at least. This means that the

    2 doctor recommended that the patient should go home and

    3 spend five days at home for treatment. That is that he

    4 should be released from prison for the duration of five

    5 days.

    6 Q. Do you remember when this was issued and who

    7 issued this document?

    8 A. It was Dr. Markovic Srdjana, surgeon, but I

    9 cannot remember the exact date. However, I believe

    10 that it was at the beginning of the conflict, the 27th

    11 or the 28th of January, when this particular doctor was

    12 on duty.

    13 Q. Thank you. The next document, please.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: With regards to this

    15 documents on Indictments 425, that will be D-18.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: No, no, D.

    17 THE REGISTRAR: This will be D.


    19 Q. Dr. Bilic, could you please have a look at

    20 this document and make some comments. We have a date

    21 here.

    22 A. As far as I can read it this is 25th of

    23 January, 1993.

    24 Q. Do you know the patient?

    25 A. The patient is Suad Halilovic. I know him by

  45. 1 sight. And the diagnosis, as far as I can read it,

    2 thoracical contusions or something like that, a blow in

    3 the chest without fracture. So if doctor has put here

    4 "without fracture," it means that there should be an

    5 x-ray as well, x-ray of the chest, patient's chest,

    6 because she indicated "without fracture." She must

    7 have seen somehow that there was no fracture and the

    8 therapy indicated is house treatment as well. So once

    9 again, I can conclude that he was in prison and that he

    10 was sent by the doctor for house treatment.

    11 Q. Thank you very much. Next document, please,

    12 Mr. Usher.

    13 THE REGISTRAR: Be document D-18/E.


    15 Q. Hasim Pezic, do you know him?

    16 A. No, I don't know him.

    17 Q. Could you comment on this document, please,

    18 and tell us about the time it was issued?

    19 A. Well, the document is 4, 5, 4, the old

    20 international classification of diseases again. And I

    21 don't know which particular disease this is. Therapy

    22 recommended is cold compresses and home treatment

    23 again. So once again, I think we can conclude that

    24 this patient was sent for home treatment from Kaonik.

    25 The doctor who wrote this, because of the time when she

  46. 1 was on duty, I believe that the exact date would be

    2 either 25th or 26th of January.

    3 Q. Next document, please.

    4 THE REGISTRAR: Will be given the number

    5 D-18/F.


    7 Q. Nasib Silajdzic, do you know him?

    8 A. No, I don't know him.

    9 Q. Please, can we have your comment as to the

    10 medical treatment that is indicated in this document,

    11 time when the document was issued and where was the

    12 person when he required medical help?

    13 A. We have here swelling, left ear. The left

    14 ear, I can't read this. Ortho H is prescribed, ear

    15 drops and we have a note here, the patient should avoid

    16 draught, should be sent home for treatment and,

    17 therefore, I can conclude that the patient was from

    18 Kaonik and it was sent to home treatment by the person

    19 who issued a document, who signed the document, Dr.

    20 Bernardica Mioc who was on duty on the 25th or 26th of

    21 January.

    22 Q. Can we move on to the next document please.

    23 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Document D-18/G.


    25 Q. We have a document on the 26th of January,

  47. 1 '93, signed by Dr. Bernardica Mioc and this person is

    2 Senad Dervic, do you know this individual?

    3 A. Yes, I know this individual personally

    4 because we were colleagues. This patient worked at the

    5 health care administration so that we cooperated very

    6 closely.

    7 Q. In Busovaca you mean?

    8 A. Yes, in Busovaca. I know him personally.

    9 And according to this diagnosis, 5-P 3, 2, I don't know

    10 what it means because I am not a doctor, but at any

    11 rate it is a genital ulcer evidently. And the

    12 treatment is Eglonyl ampule so that the patient could

    13 be administered it at the health centre. And then

    14 Belamet tablets (check medication name). The patient

    15 should be trussed and treatment at home.

    16 Dr. Bernardica Mioc issued this prescription

    17 and she was on duty on the 26th of January. I remember

    18 this patient exactly because I knew him well and

    19 because we were associates. We cooperated and I know

    20 that he was brought from Kaonik there. That I took him

    21 into my office and that I gave him a package of

    22 cigarettes and that he was sent home for treatment.

    23 Q. Thank you. Next document, please.

    24 THE REGISTRAR: The document concerning Senad

    25 Dervic will be given D-19/H.

  48. 1 MR. MIKULICIC:

    2 Q. Ethem Lusija, do you know this individual?

    3 A. Yes, by sight.

    4 Q. Where is he from?

    5 A. From Busovaca.

    6 Q. Could you comment on this document the same

    7 as before. So it was signed by Dr. Nada Petrovic. Can

    8 you tell us when this was and whether this person was

    9 in Kaonik at that time as far as you know?

    10 A. At that time, Dr. Nada Petrovic, as I said,

    11 was on duty together with Dr. Mioc, so this document

    12 could have been issued on the 25th or 26th of January,

    13 1993. She measured his pressure, blood pressure twice,

    14 220 through to 200 and 200 through 125. So it must be

    15 a heart case, a cardiac patient. Because evidently,

    16 she did EEG, that is, ECG and see how the heart

    17 functioned because she could see that the heart beat

    18 was fastened but there was no noise either in systaltic

    19 pressure or anywhere. And the other thing she could do

    20 only after the electrocardiogram.

    21 And she prescribed this treatment Lasix

    22 ampule which is a sedative pills, Aldomet pills -- oh,

    23 it says tablets. Two times one. When this patient was

    24 brought in, she measured his pressure, did the

    25 electrocardiography, prescribed the medicines, waited

  49. 1 for the patient to have his pressure measured once

    2 again and it was 200 through 125. After that she

    3 prescribed pills and she must have asked people who had

    4 brought in this patient to enable him to be assigned

    5 treatment at home. That's it.

    6 Q. And you conclude from that that this person

    7 was brought from Kaonik?

    8 A. Yes, yes, I do.

    9 Q. Thank you.

    10 THE REGISTRAR: This will be document

    11 D-18/I.

    12 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, concerning the

    13 objection I originally raised. The date on this

    14 document appears to me to be 1991. If it is 1991, I

    15 then I don't see the relevance of it.

    16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic, it is true

    17 that the date on here is 27 January 1991 and so this is

    18 outside the indictment.

    19 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, this is a

    20 document which in the translation date of issue 27

    21 January '91. The prescription is in handwriting. And

    22 if you look at the original of the prescription, you

    23 will see that a figure after figure 9 could be 3 just

    24 as well as it can be 1. So that I should like to ask

    25 the doctor to use the same methodology she used to

  50. 1 interpret the other document to try to interpret this

    2 one. And to see whether this document was indeed

    3 issued in '91 as it said in translation into English

    4 and French. Or is it the date which transpires from

    5 the original document. Sir, could the witness

    6 comment. And if this is indeed a document of '91, then

    7 I will not propose it as evidence.

    8 MR. NIEMANN: I certainly have no objection

    9 of the witness being questioned on it, Your Honours,

    10 yes.

    11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Okay. Very well, Mr.

    12 Mikulicic excuse me. Thank you, Mr. Niemann. Please

    13 resume.

    14 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you very much, Your

    15 Honour.

    16 Q. Dr. Bilic, we have a document, could you

    17 please describe to the Court what document is this?

    18 A. It's different from others. This document,

    19 this is the original prescription which the physicians

    20 issued for the pharmacy so that patients could get this

    21 medicine. The only difference is that if this

    22 prescription were of '91 as this figure down there

    23 looks like, then I think they should have filled in all

    24 the columns in this prescription. And one does not see

    25 it here. Because we have the name Hasan Pezic,

  51. 1 addressed Busovaca.

    2 That the document was -- had this document

    3 been issued in '91, they would have had to also add the

    4 personal number in full. Because in '91 all patients

    5 had to come to the health centre, to be covered by the

    6 health care, they had to bring in their health

    7 certificates. And these health certificates included

    8 all the data, that is, the number, the register number,

    9 the personal number of the patient in question with the

    10 diagnosis and everything else. And such a prescription

    11 in '91 would not be recognised by any pharmacy, by any

    12 chemist because it was not filled out properly. So it

    13 could have been issued at the time. Perhaps it was

    14 written by hand and a mistake was made, 27th of

    15 January. I think the doctor, surgeon, Srdjana Markovic

    16 was employed by the health centre at the time and

    17 perhaps the patient did not have his health card,

    18 health certificate with him.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes, there is one element

    20 in regards to the number in this document, and also in

    21 the following document there is a number series

    22 indicated on this document, and from this series you

    23 can see that it is the same. My colleague, Judge

    24 Vohrah, drew my attention to this fact. Therefore, we

    25 have a document before us which has the date '91

  52. 1 indicated, but the following document is also there

    2 now. But in the following document, nonetheless, there

    3 is a number series which is the same.

    4 Am I understood? So with regards to the

    5 date, I believe that that is no longer a question. Do

    6 you understand my question, Dr. Bilic?

    7 A. Yes, I did.

    8 MR. NIEMANN: I did notice that, Your Honour,

    9 but I also noticed that the signature that appears

    10 above the date in both documents to which Your Honour

    11 is referring appears to be the same signature, and yet

    12 for the date -- for the last document that hasn't been

    13 dealt with yet, the person who wrote it doesn't seem to

    14 have had any difficulty writing the "3". And the "3"

    15 that appears there seems to be quite different to the

    16 one that appears on the document in contention. It

    17 might be just that it's in error, but it certainly

    18 seems to me, looking at both documents, if one assumes

    19 that the signatures are the same, I don't profess to be

    20 a handwriting expert, but I do notice the stamp there.

    21 It would seem to me that one couldn't confuse a '91

    22 with a '93.

    23 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well. I would like

    24 for Dr. Bilic to say something with regards to the

    25 sequence of these numbered documents. Does this mean,

  53. 1 then, that we have the document which is at present on

    2 the ELMO, and the following document, and perhaps we

    3 might even see things more clearly if we were to see

    4 the following document.

    5 If we were to look at the actual number

    6 series that are on the upper part of that page there,

    7 you can see there is indeed a series, a number series,

    8 and there is only a difference of 21.

    9 Dr. Bilic, I think perhaps you might make a

    10 statement on this after these documents have been

    11 presented.

    12 Mr. Mikulicic, do you agree that we perhaps

    13 might deal with this issue after they have been dealt

    14 with?

    15 MR. NIEMANN: No objection.

    16 MR. MIKULICIC: Okay.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Very well.

    18 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We

    19 agree.


    21 Q. So, Dr. Bilic, by looking at the document

    22 which follows for Salih Hodzic and comparing the serial

    23 numbers of the two documents, the Court has observed

    24 that these could be the documents from the same

    25 series. Could you comment on this? Could it be that

  54. 1 documents from the same series be issued one in '91 and

    2 the second in '93?

    3 A. No, it is impossible. The serial number

    4 could have been on the 27th of January '93, so that

    5 this document for Salih Hodzic with this serial number

    6 16 1994 04 preceded the document issued to Hasan Pezic

    7 with the serial number 16 1994 25. In other words,

    8 that Dr. Markovic, Srdjana Markovic, could see first

    9 Salih Hodzic and then the 21st patient after him was

    10 Hasan Pezic. And I do not think that there should be

    11 any doubt that in the year it is evident that it is '93

    12 if one looks at the serial number.

    13 Q. Perhaps another question. Do you remember if

    14 Dr. Markovic was in the staff of the health centre in

    15 '91?

    16 A. Dr. Markovic, yes. Yes, she was

    17 MR. MIKULICIC: I should like to ask my

    18 distinguished colleague Niemann if he is satisfied with

    19 this answer of the witness, or does he still insist on

    20 the irrelevance of the document referring to Hasan

    21 Pezic.

    22 MR. NIEMANN: We have no objection.

    23 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you. Mr. Niemann, if I

    24 may, I should like to proceed.

    25 Q. So, Dr. Bilic, we are now referring to

  55. 1 documents, that is the order in which we produced

    2 them. Hasan Pezic, do you know this individual?

    3 A. No, I don't.

    4 Q. Can you tell us something from this -- about

    5 this document? It's not particularly legible, I know.

    6 A. All I can read is that this ought to be the

    7 prescription for Amilofilin. These were tablets,

    8 .25, 3 times 2, but below it I simply cannot read it.

    9 So evidently he had some respiration complaints. The

    10 diagnosis says 4 5 4 . I don't know this code.

    11 Q. Thank you. So can you proceed then to the

    12 next document and the last one issued in the name of --

    13 to the name of Salih Hodzic.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: The document regarding Hasan

    15 Pezic, which has a number 25 at the end of the series,

    16 shall be given a number D18J.


    18 Q. Dr. Bilic, before I ask you to comment on

    19 this document, there was something that you answered

    20 which reminded me of a situation which I should like

    21 you to explain to the Honourable Court. You said, when

    22 you looked and commented on the previous documents,

    23 since the whole form had not been filled out, that it

    24 reminded you of 1993, that is the time of the conflict,

    25 and when aid, when services were extended to patients

  56. 1 and they were not asked to submit any proof or their

    2 health insurance, that is, they did not have to produce

    3 their health insurance number. Could you explain this?

    4 A. Well, in the normal times, and when the work

    5 is normal, then every patient, at least in our case, at

    6 the Busovaca Health Centre, had to have his health

    7 insurance card before he saw a doctor. And we needed

    8 to have all the data referring to a particular -- that

    9 particular patient, because the health centre keeps

    10 cards, keeps patient cards.

    11 When the first -- when a patient comes for

    12 the first time, then everything is put in there, that

    13 is the date, the name, the date, personal particulars,

    14 the diagnosis and so on, so forth. And for this -- and

    15 his health certificate also had to feature the number

    16 of his card.

    17 And the prescription could not be issued

    18 without it. So this prescription could be issued only

    19 at the time of the conflict in Busovaca because, in

    20 view of the situation, who would ask for the card? I

    21 mean, we had to help all patients and not ask for their

    22 papers or serial numbers or whatever. It was absurd

    23 under the circumstances.

    24 Q. Dr. Bilic, by presenting his health insurance

    25 card, the patient offers proof of his health insurance,

  57. 1 that somebody is covered by insurance?

    2 A. Yes, that is precisely what it means.

    3 Q. That it means that in this first half of '93

    4 you simply paid no attention to the fact whether

    5 somebody was or was not covered by health insurance?

    6 A. No, indeed we did not. It would have been

    7 absurd under the circumstances, which were

    8 extraordinary.

    9 Q. Thank you very much. Now, can we go to this

    10 document, the document issued to the name of Salih

    11 Hodzic. Do you know this individual?

    12 A. Yes, I do.

    13 Q. Where does he come from?

    14 A. From Busovaca.

    15 Q. Could you comment on this document?

    16 A. We see that it was issued on the 25th of

    17 January, 1993, that Dr. Srdjana Markovic was the one

    18 who issued this document.

    19 Q. What is it?

    20 A. The diagnosis 4 2 5, I do not know this code,

    21 since I am not a physician. And she prescribed Isoptin

    22 tablets, 25 milligrams, two times one; Andol tablets,

    23 one times one; Apaurin pills one time once; and the

    24 doctor emphatically stated that the patient needs

    25 treatment at home because he had a heart complaint.

  58. 1 So he could have been brought from Kaonik and

    2 the doctor emphatically requested that be sent home for

    3 further treatment.

    4 Q. Thank you. Dr. Bilic, do you know of your

    5 own knowledge whether these recommendations issued by

    6 physicians about sending one for treatment, whether

    7 this was absurd, that is, whether these patients were

    8 indeed being released and sent home for treatment?

    9 A. As far as I know, they were. That is, those

    10 who were given these prescriptions, those who brought

    11 those people from Kaonik, I believe they observed them.

    12 Q. How do you know that?

    13 A. I know it because of my colleague, the

    14 previous patient, Senad Dervic, I know that he was sent

    15 home for treatment.

    16 Q. I understand. Dr. Bilic, with this I should

    17 conclude with examination. Thank you very much for

    18 your answers. Thank you very much, your Lordships.

    19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, do you have

    20 any questions?

    21 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honour.

    22 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann

    23 Q. Now, you were at the medical centre, but you

    24 didn't practice medicine; is that what -- do I

    25 understand that to be your position?

  59. 1 A. No, I did not. I worked at a medical

    2 facility, but I am not a physician. I am a pharmacist

    3 and I worked as a biochemical engineer, which was part

    4 of the diagnostic service at the health centre in

    5 Busovaca.

    6 Q. Now, did you just mainly involve yourself

    7 with administrative duties, or did you also become

    8 involved with the pharmacy attached to the medical

    9 centre?

    10 A. I worked at the health centre in Busovaca as

    11 a biochemist, which means that I was involved in

    12 laboratory diagnosis, laboratory analysis at the

    13 laboratory, which was part of the Busovaca Medical

    14 Centre.

    15 Q. I see. And this was in addition to your

    16 administrative duties?

    17 A. Yes. Yes.

    18 Q. Did you -- did your either administrative

    19 duties or your professional duties at the medical

    20 centre require you to be there at the night-time, or

    21 did you work mostly during the day?

    22 A. Most of the time I worked during the day, but

    23 sometimes I would also work at night.

    24 Q. Now, when patients were brought to the

    25 hospital, I think you've testified that you saw them on

  60. 1 a couple of occasions. Did you always see them, or was

    2 it just by chance that you happened to see patients

    3 coming to the medical centre from Kaonik?

    4 A. I wouldn't see them every time, but sometimes

    5 when I would be passing from one office to another I

    6 would see -- I would see a patient that had just been

    7 brought in.

    8 Q. I think you said in your evidence, you spoke

    9 of food being prepared and distributed from barracks.

    10 I was just wondering if you could tell me what barracks

    11 were you referring to when you said that?

    12 A. I was referring to the barracks of the former

    13 JNA in Busovaca, in the place called Draga.

    14 Q. Were these barracks occupied by the Dutch

    15 battalion, were they, or were they someone else?

    16 A. No, the Dutch battalion was accommodated in

    17 hotel in Busovaca, one part of the Dutch battalion, and

    18 the other part of the Dutch battalion was quartered in

    19 the high school building in Busovaca.

    20 Q. Did you -- were you in a position at any

    21 stage to seek assistance, medical assistance that is,

    22 from the Dutch battalion?

    23 A. Yes, I was. I believe I already mentioned

    24 that sometimes if we needed some specific medication,

    25 which we didn't have at the health centre in Busovaca,

  61. 1 I would ask the Dutch battalion for help. In case they

    2 had that particular medication, they would always give

    3 it to us.

    4 Q. And you spoke of there being a medical

    5 facility that you could refer patients to at Nova

    6 Bila. What sort of premises or what sort of facilities

    7 were available at Nova Bila?

    8 A. This was just one part of the newly

    9 established hospital in Nova Bila, which wasn't really

    10 a hospital. It was a church where only two surgeons

    11 were working. So you couldn't really call it a

    12 hospital. It didn't have all necessary departments.

    13 It was a war hospital, a makeshift hospital where

    14 patients from this particular area could be admitted,

    15 if necessary.

    16 Q. Now, I think -- were you in Busovaca just

    17 prior to the outbreak of hostilities in January of

    18 1993? Were you still living there then or at that time

    19 were you living there?

    20 A. Yes. Yes, I was there.

    21 Q. Now, as the sort of tensions built up, did

    22 you see troops come into the town at all, into the town

    23 of Busovaca?

    24 A. No, I didn't.

    25 Q. You didn't observe any build-up of troops in

  62. 1 the town at all?

    2 A. No, I didn't observe any.

    3 Q. You spoke of going to the Kaonik camp, the

    4 Kaonik facility, yourself on one occasion and that you

    5 are aware of the fact that your staff went there on

    6 another occasion. Was there any arrangement whereby

    7 regular visits would be paid to the camp, that you knew

    8 of?

    9 A. There were no such arrangements. We would go

    10 there upon the request of the warden of the Kaonik

    11 facility, whenever it was necessary. When we had to

    12 see a particular patient, the physicians would go

    13 there. And two occasions that I mentioned, it was just

    14 an occasion for us to see what the situation was, the

    15 epidemiological situation, not only at the prison

    16 facility but also on the territory of the Municipality

    17 of Busovaca in general.

    18 Q. If I understand your evidence, did you say

    19 that in 1992, as opposed to 1993, that Serb patients

    20 were being brought to you from the Kaonik camp? Did

    21 you say that, or was that something I misunderstood?

    22 A. I don't think it was a camp. In my opinion,

    23 Kaonik was not a camp, as far as could I see. As to

    24 people who were brought in, these were just people from

    25 the Kaonik facility, people who had committed some kind

  63. 1 of criminal offence, because we had both Croats and

    2 Serbs.

    3 Q. Yes. But in 1992, and we won't call it a

    4 camp, if that's not your understanding of it, but in

    5 1992, when it was used as a prison, the people that

    6 were brought to you were mainly Serb; is that the

    7 effect of your testimony?

    8 A. Not mainly Serbs. There were also Croats

    9 amongst them. There were both Croats and Serbs.

    10 Q. And you understood these people in 1992 to be

    11 prisoners?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And did you know why, particularly the Serbs

    14 I am interested in, do you know why the Serbs were in

    15 Kaonik as prisoners in 1992?

    16 A. I don't know.

    17 Q. Now, you spoke of people wearing military

    18 clothing during the period of the war. Did you wear

    19 military clothing yourself?

    20 A. No, I didn't.

    21 Q. And what about members of your staff, did any

    22 of the doctors that worked with you, or nurses, wear

    23 military clothing?

    24 A. No. Not at the Busovaca Health Centre. We

    25 had white coats, and these white coats were our

  64. 1 uniform.

    2 Q. I see. When did you first understand that

    3 the Kaonik facility was being used to house prisoners?

    4 When did you first understand that to occur?

    5 A. In late 1992, when they started bringing in

    6 people from Kaonik.

    7 Q. And in late 1992 most of the conflict was

    8 between the Croatian people; Muslim people and the

    9 Serbs being on the other side. Am I right?

    10 A. No. In late 1992 there was no conflict

    11 between Croats and Muslims. At that time we had no

    12 such conflict in our area.

    13 Q. Yes. I think you misunderstood what I said.

    14 You are absolutely right, the point is the conflict at

    15 that time, in '92, was between the Croats and Serbs,

    16 and also the Muslims and Serbs?

    17 A. In Busovaca there was no such conflict

    18 between Croats and Serbs and Muslims and Serbs. There

    19 was just one occasion, there was one shelling incident

    20 when Busovaca was shelled with missiles in April 1992,

    21 when the health centre was hit.

    22 Q. Yes. Now, when you went to the Kaonik

    23 facility, you saw the prisoners that were being

    24 detained there? That's right, isn't it?

    25 A. Yes.

  65. 1 Q. And you knew some of the people?

    2 A. By sight, yes.

    3 Q. And the people that you saw there, they were,

    4 by this stage in 1993, Muslims?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. And were they women and children and men, or

    7 just men that you can remember seeing?

    8 A. Only men were there. There were no women and

    9 children.

    10 Q. And do you know why there was only men

    11 there? You may not know this.

    12 A. No, I don't know.

    13 Q. And were they of any particular age group,

    14 the men, or were they all a full range of age groups

    15 that you could see?

    16 A. I believe full range of age groups. Only

    17 men.

    18 Q. Do you know why they were there?

    19 A. I don't know.

    20 Q. Did you see any infirmary or medical sort of

    21 hospital or anything of that nature at the Kaonik

    22 facility when you went there?

    23 A. No, I didn't.

    24 Q. You didn't see any particular rooms which had

    25 been set aside for providing medical care?

  66. 1 A. No, I didn't see any such thing.

    2 Q. Now, I think it's obvious, because you've

    3 told us what your duties are, but just for the record,

    4 your evidence is that you'd never yourself actually

    5 carried out an examination of any of the people that

    6 had come from Kaonik?

    7 A. No, because I am not a physician.

    8 Q. Now, I think you also gave evidence of the

    9 fact that the Kaonik prisoners that were brought to the

    10 medical facility, they didn't appear to be constrained

    11 or tied up in any way with handcuffs or any means; is

    12 that your evidence?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Did the guards or Mr. Aleksovski, when you

    15 saw him there with prisoners, did he appear to be armed

    16 with weapons of any sort?

    17 A. No, they were not.

    18 Q. So I take it from that, then, that these

    19 people were not considered dangerous criminals or

    20 anything of that nature?

    21 A. Well, I guess not. It was not my duty to

    22 judge what they were, whether they were criminals,

    23 whether they were dangerous or not.

    24 Q. But in charge of the facility, as you were,

    25 if they were bringing in notoriously dangerous

  67. 1 criminals, I take it you would be concerned about your

    2 other patients, if that was the case?

    3 A. Well, of course I would be concerned if

    4 someone is a dangerous criminal, and if he's brought to

    5 my institution without handcuffs. Of course I would be

    6 concerned for the safety of other patients and other

    7 staff who were there at the medical centre.

    8 Q. I think your evidence is that you knew some

    9 of the people, some of the Muslim people that were

    10 brought there from Kaonik. That's true, isn't it?

    11 A. Yes, that's true.

    12 Q. And certainly, other than them being

    13 unfortunately involved in the conflict, there was no

    14 fear or thought in your mind of them being dangerous or

    15 notorious or anything of that nature?

    16 A. No.

    17 Q. Now, you say that if people had developed

    18 skin disorders at the camp, you should have been

    19 informed about that. Do you remember saying something

    20 to that effect in your evidence?

    21 A. Yes, I would have been. I should have been

    22 informed.

    23 Q. Who would have informed you of that?

    24 A. I would have been informed by the physician

    25 who established the existence of such a skin disorder.

  68. 1 Q. What about the camp? What sort of reporting

    2 facility was put in place so that if someone became ill

    3 at the camp, how did you then get to know that that

    4 patient was ill?

    5 A. Well, again, in my opinion, it was not a

    6 camp. For us, in order to get there, it was enough for

    7 someone from Kaonik to come and see us and to tell us

    8 that there was need for the physician to visit the

    9 facility, or we could have also been informed by phone.

    10 Q. So, I take it, that the process by which you

    11 would be informed was entirely dependent upon those

    12 persons who were in charge of the camp, such as

    13 Mr. Aleksovski or the guards?

    14 A. Most probably so, yes. Because we, at the

    15 medical centre, couldn't be aware of such things at the

    16 prison facility. Someone had to inform us. Someone

    17 had to tell us that there was a patient in need of

    18 care, or maybe the patient could come to the centre

    19 himself.

    20 Q. Did you ever have any visits from the

    21 International Committee of the Red Cross about patients

    22 in the Kaonik facility?

    23 A. No. Not at that time.

    24 Q. Now, in your evidence you described the

    25 situation at Kaonik, so far as you were concerned, as

  69. 1 being normal for that type of facility. And you've

    2 also corrected me for using the word "camp." What did

    3 you mean by the term "normal for that type of facility"

    4 when you said that? What did you mean by that?

    5 A. I meant that it was a facility where a large

    6 number of people were accommodated. And as for the

    7 prevailing conditions during that conflict, the

    8 situation was not good. I mean, the general situation

    9 couldn't be good at any facility.

    10 Q. You spoke of the fact that it would be

    11 contrary to medical ethics for doctors or medical staff

    12 at the Busovaca Medical Centre to discriminate on the

    13 basis of nationality. I take it, that you can't

    14 positively rule out that some members of your staff may

    15 have discriminated on the basis of nationality, but

    16 it's something that you simply didn't know about at the

    17 time?

    18 A. I didn't know about such cases, but I believe

    19 that there was no discrimination in respect of

    20 patients. Every patient who would come to our

    21 institution, he was simply a patient for all of us. We

    22 didn't pay attention to his ethnic background, to his

    23 name, surname, and so on.

    24 Q. And I am quite sure that you never did, but I

    25 am just saying that if others on your staff did, it's

  70. 1 possible it may have happened and you didn't know?

    2 A. It may have happened, but I'm sure that there

    3 were no such cases, that nobody discriminated in that

    4 sense at the health centre in Busovaca.

    5 Q. You spoke of conditions during the war, and I

    6 am quite sure they must have been very hard for

    7 everybody. But were the basic facilities available to

    8 you personally during the war? When I say basic

    9 facilities, were you able to gather enough food and to

    10 wash and tend to your personal needs like that?

    11 A. Well, I was in the same situation as other

    12 people, and I probably ate the same food at the health

    13 centre as the people at the Kaonik facility. I had

    14 soap to wash myself, and I believe the people at the

    15 Kaonik facility also had soap.

    16 Q. What about heating?

    17 A. As far as heating is concerned, at the health

    18 centre in Busovaca we had the central heating system

    19 from before the war. We had a boiler room and we had

    20 some coal left. So we did have heating for a period of

    21 time at the health centre.

    22 Q. Now, when you went to Kaonik, what was the

    23 heating facilities there like? Did you make any

    24 observations about that?

    25 A. No, I didn't.

  71. 1 Q. What about -- did people appear to have

    2 sufficient blankets and bedding that you could see?

    3 A. I don't remember. I wasn't -- I didn't see

    4 whether they had blankets or not.

    5 Q. It's a long time back, but did you notice the

    6 beds, the type of beds people were sleeping in?

    7 A. I don't remember. Sorry, I don't remember.

    8 It was a long time ago.

    9 Q. Did you go into -- I think you said that you

    10 went into all parts of the prison. Did you go into --

    11 do you remember going into a large hangar type building

    12 with a lot of people in it?

    13 A. I don't remember.

    14 Q. What do you remember seeing, in terms of the

    15 buildings that you went into?

    16 A. I saw a big building, there was an entrance

    17 to that building, several rooms. There was a toilet

    18 facility next to the rooms. I can remember this much.

    19 Q. And these rooms appeared to be divided into

    20 cells; is that correct?

    21 A. Yes, they looked that way, but I -- they

    22 didn't look like real cells, in my opinion.

    23 Q. Did you go into -- inside of any of these

    24 cells, or did you just look at them from the outside?

    25 A. I didn't go inside. I saw them from the

  72. 1 outside.

    2 Q. And you don't remember a big, open hangar

    3 building with a lot of people in it at all at that

    4 stage?

    5 A. No, I don't remember.

    6 Q. Did you see a place where people could wash

    7 their clothes and dry them?

    8 A. No, I didn't see it.

    9 Q. And you spoke of the toilet facilities. What

    10 was it that enabled you to differentiate between staff

    11 toilet facilities and toilet facilities of the

    12 prisoners? What enabled you to do that?

    13 A. No, they were the same.

    14 Q. But there was nothing that permitted you to

    15 say that this was definitely a toilet for prisoners as

    16 opposed to staff; to you all the toilets looked the

    17 same? Is that what you are saying?

    18 A. No, they looked the same.

    19 Q. And did you sit down and speak to any of the

    20 prisoners there at the time and ask them about their

    21 conditions?

    22 A. No, I didn't.

    23 Q. During this particular period in time did you

    24 -- bear with me a moment. Did you know of a

    25 Dr. Mujezinovic?

  73. 1 A. No, I didn't.

    2 Q. Mohamed Mujezinovic?

    3 A. No. No. I only heard that this physician

    4 used to work in Vitez.

    5 Q. And did you know that he was brought down to

    6 your medical facility during April and May of 1993?

    7 A. As a doctor or as a patient?

    8 Q. As a doctor. Did you know that?

    9 A. I don't remember.

    10 Q. You don't recall him being brought down each

    11 -- just about every day for a two-week period? It's a

    12 long time back now, but he was collected from Vitez and

    13 brought down.

    14 A. He was not brought to the health centre. I'm

    15 sure about that. You mean to work -- that

    16 Dr. Mujezinovic would work at the health centre in

    17 Busovaca? No.

    18 Q. You don't remember?

    19 A. I remember that he didn't work -- he wasn't

    20 working there, because I was there during that period.

    21 Dr. Mujezinovic from Vitez was not coming to work at

    22 the health centre in Busovaca.

    23 Q. And he's Muslim, isn't he?

    24 A. Well, by his name and surname, yes.

    25 Q. You spoke of the Busovaca medical facility

  74. 1 being the only facility in Busovaca, but wasn't there

    2 also a facility at the kindergarten?

    3 A. At the kindergarten, yes. There was one

    4 facility which was a branch of the Nova Bila Hospital

    5 which only had a few beds for patients who were able to

    6 leave the Nova Bila Hospital. There were no doctors

    7 there.

    8 Q. And this facility at the kindergarten was for

    9 HVO soldiers?

    10 A. I believe so, but I am not sure. I don't

    11 know. I am not aware of that because I was working at

    12 the health centre, which is a separate institution. I

    13 was not working with the Nova Bila Hospital.

    14 Q. Now, you're still the director of the medical

    15 centre in Busovaca?

    16 A. Yes, I am.

    17 Q. And so you would have access to all the

    18 medical records that are being kept there, is that

    19 right?

    20 A. Yes, I do.

    21 Q. So if representatives from the office of the

    22 Prosecutor were to come and see you, you'd be able to

    23 show us those records that you keep there for this

    24 particular period?

    25 A. Yes.

  75. 1 Q. And with these medical records, the sample

    2 group that you've brought to court with you here, what

    3 has been brought here, did you get permission from the

    4 patients to bring these documents to court?

    5 A. Could you please repeat your question, I am

    6 not sure I understood?

    7 Q. The series of the documents from the hospital

    8 that we went through and have been marked as exhibits

    9 and were placed on the overhead projector, I was just

    10 asking you, did you obtain the permission of the

    11 patients to bring those records here to court?

    12 A. No. I didn't obtain permission from patients

    13 because these documents, the documents they received,

    14 remained at the medical centre in Busovaca. They were

    15 not in their possession. So there was no need for me

    16 to ask them to give this documentation. Because if I

    17 issue one particular prescription or document, I keep

    18 it, we keep it at the medical centre. It is never

    19 given to the patient. He gets a copy for the

    20 prescription and this other document stays here.

    21 Q. So the information that's contained in these

    22 documents is not considered by you to be privileged

    23 medical information in other words?

    24 A. No, I don't consider it as such.

    25 Q. Now just going through these documents, and I

  76. 1 think it might help you if you were to have access to

    2 them and to assist their Honours if we put a copy on

    3 the projector. I would like to ask you some questions

    4 about them, if I may?

    5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me, but I believe

    6 we're going to be working until 1.30, perhaps we might

    7 divide that time up appropriately. Perhaps we might

    8 take a break now, unless you have a question you would

    9 like to put to the witness now. Otherwise, I think it

    10 be best see when we continue. Should we take a recess

    11 now? Very well. Let's take a fifteen minute break.

    12 --- Recess taken at 12:25 p.m.

    13 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.

    14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, please resume.

    15 Wait a moment, please.

    16 (The accused entered court).

    17 MR. NIEMANN:

    18 Q. Dr. Bilic, I was about to ask you some

    19 questions about the documents that have been tendered

    20 into evidence. And perhaps if I can do them one by

    21 one, that would help. The first one, D-18/A A. If

    22 that can be placed on the overhead projector, please.

    23 Doctor, this person, Ilijaz Krivosija, did you know

    24 this person at all?

    25 A. I did, yes, he was a neighbour.

  77. 1 Q. And what was his employment, what did he do

    2 in Busovaca?

    3 A. I hope you'll believe me that I don't know.

    4 I think he worked for the steel works in Zenica, but I

    5 only think so, I am not sure.

    6 Q. And I take it you didn't understand him to be

    7 in any way connected with the military, the JNA or the

    8 Territorial Defence?

    9 A. I don't know.

    10 Q. Do you know how or why it was that he ended

    11 up in the Kaonik camp by any chance if he was a

    12 neighbour?

    13 A. -- to camp in my view, but I just don't

    14 know.

    15 Q. Okay. And just looking at the document

    16 itself, Exhibit D-18/A, and perhaps it could be

    17 displayed on the overhead projector. It probably

    18 already is. The English version of it, perhaps, we

    19 might see. Do you notice there you it says "exemption

    20 from work," presumably that means work at the Kaonik

    21 prison -- yes, by the Kaonik prison?

    22 A. I don't know, I didn't write this

    23 prescription. It was the doctor who did it.

    24 Q. You're aware, I take it, that prisoners were

    25 used for the purposes of digging trenches during that

  78. 1 period of 1993, people who were detained at the Kaonik

    2 prison?

    3 A. I don't know that.

    4 Q. Do you know the sort of work people were

    5 doing there?

    6 A. I don't know it, I wasn't a doctor and I

    7 really don't know what she meant or what she told the

    8 patient. The patient never came to from me to a prison

    9 to be examined by me.

    10 Q. And you'd agree with me if it were for no

    11 other reason but for general knowledge, that digging

    12 trenches would not be the sort of appropriate activity

    13 for someone with a discus hernia?

    14 A. Yes, I would.

    15 Q. Where is Dr. Mioc now?

    16 A. I don't know, believe me, I think she's in

    17 Australia. She was from Zenica, otherwise.

    18 Q. Now, you'll notice that it says "sleeping on

    19 a flat bed recommended." I take it you don't know

    20 whether those sorts of facilities were available in the

    21 prison at Kaonik?

    22 A. About these facilities, I don't know, but I

    23 think it could be made available.

    24 Q. Would sleeping on one of those packing racks,

    25 the racks that they use to pack boxes and things on,

  79. 1 would that be suitable or do you think the doctor may

    2 have had in mind something a bit more elaborate than

    3 that?

    4 A. I don't know what the doctor had in mind, but

    5 I guess a board, a wooden board would have been

    6 enough.

    7 Q. Okay. Now, going to the next document,

    8 Document 18/B. You'll notice that in this one it

    9 prescribes the treatment at home recommended. What is

    10 it about being treated at home that would have been

    11 better for this person than being in the Kaonik

    12 prison?

    13 A. I don't know, believe me.

    14 Q. And do you know this person, Avdo Husbasic?

    15 A. I do not.

    16 Q. You notice that the tablets that have been

    17 prescribed there, are you familiar with those

    18 particular tablets?

    19 A. Amilofilin tablets, two times one tablet,

    20 yes, I know that one. Ramital, I don't know, I don't

    21 know what it would be in Croatian.

    22 Q. What --

    23 A. Ramital, R-a-m-i-t-a-l.

    24 Q. What is that normally prescribed for?

    25 A. Ramital is normally prescribed, as far as I

  80. 1 know, for the stomach or duodenal ulcer.

    2 Q. And I notice that Dr. Petrovic is an

    3 obstetrician and gynaecologist. I take it that doctors

    4 were in somewhat short supply then, so you had to use

    5 whatever doctors that were available?

    6 A. She tried, yes, she did.

    7 Q. Where is Dr. Petrovic now?

    8 A. Health centre at Busovaca. She is there

    9 right this minute, she is working there.

    10 Q. Now, if we look at the next document, 18/C.

    11 Did you know this person, Ismet Medjuseljac?

    12 A. Yes, I did, by sight.

    13 Q. And do you know where he came from?

    14 A. No, I don't.

    15 Q. And do you remember him as being a patient

    16 previously at the medical centre?

    17 A. I do.

    18 Q. And do you know whether or not he had any

    19 particular complaints prior to this?

    20 A. I don't know, I am not a doctor. And I

    21 didn't see his card.

    22 Q. If you look at the next one, 18/D. Again, we

    23 have this recommendation for home treatment, did you

    24 know this person, Ejub Buljina?

    25 A. No.

  81. 1 Q. And I think it's your evidence that these

    2 recommendations were accepted and acted upon by the

    3 prison officials at Kaonik, is that right?

    4 A. I said that, yes they did, they accepted

    5 them. And they know it about one patient for sure, but

    6 as for the others, I did not ask.

    7 Q. And obviously on this occasion only five days

    8 at home was considered the appropriate period of time

    9 for recovery?

    10 A. I guess so. The doctor who treated him must

    11 have thought that that would be enough.

    12 Q. And after five days, they would be taken back

    13 to the Kaonik prison?

    14 A. I wouldn't know.

    15 Q. Now, when they went home, I don't suppose you

    16 know whether or not they were guarded or in any way

    17 prevented from leaving the area?

    18 A. I wouldn't know.

    19 Q. And Dr. Markovic, where is Dr. Markovic now,

    20 do you know?

    21 A. Dr. Markovic is in the Netherlands now.

    22 Q. Looking at the next one, 18/E. Do you know

    23 Suad Halilovic?

    24 A. By sight, yes.

    25 Q. And do you know where he lived prior to the

  82. 1 war?

    2 A. Busovaca.

    3 Q. Do you know the premises that he was required

    4 were to live in -- I'm sorry, I withdraw that. Do you

    5 know the place where he lived, was it an apartment

    6 block or an ordinary house or maybe you don't know?

    7 A. I think he lived there in a house, in a

    8 private house.

    9 Q. And do you know happened to him during the

    10 war?

    11 A. I do not.

    12 Q. And the diagnosis there, that would be

    13 consistent, I think you said in your evidence, with a

    14 blow to the chest without fracture?

    15 A. Yes, yes.

    16 Q. And I know you've said numerous times that

    17 you're not a doctor, but it could also be consistent

    18 with being beaten?

    19 A. No. I don't know, it's possible, it's

    20 possible. It may be yes, it may be no.

    21 Q. Now looking at the next one 18/F, do you know

    22 of the drug Andol, A-n-d-o-l? Yes, do you know about

    23 the drug Andol?

    24 A. I do.

    25 Q. What is it normally used for?

  83. 1 A. It can be prescribed as a pain killer or to

    2 combat fever, analgesic or for some heart complaints,

    3 better circulation, bring the fever down.

    4 Q. And you may not know what cold compresses are

    5 commonly used for?

    6 A. Presumably for some inflammations or perhaps

    7 endyma or perhaps sprained joints.

    8 Q. Or bruising, damage to the body like that?

    9 A. That too, yes, possible.

    10 Q. Looking at the next one, 18/G. I notice this

    11 one says swelling in front of the left ear and has an

    12 earache. The recommended therapy and prescriptions

    13 there suggest that there may have been an infection in

    14 the ear, is that right?

    15 A. I don't think there was an infection. I say

    16 I am not a doctor, but I think this is diagnosis for an

    17 inflammation of the middle ear.

    18 Q. And obviously the doctor didn't consider

    19 draughts, that the patient would be able to kept out of

    20 the draft or be kept warm at Kaonik because they're

    21 prescribed different at home?

    22 A. I wouldn't know. She must have decided that

    23 that was the best thing for him.

    24 Q. And I suppose again it might be -- and if you

    25 don't know, just say you don't know because I know you

  84. 1 have said that you're not a medical practitioner, but I

    2 am just seeing how much you can assist me. The

    3 swelling to the left ear, could be the result of being

    4 hit or struck on the head? You don't rule out that

    5 possibility?

    6 A. No, one can't rule it out. But it could be

    7 the result of inflammation that it swells because it is

    8 inflammed.

    9 Q. Which inflammation could well follow being

    10 struck on the head?

    11 A. Yes. It could be, but not necessarily.

    12 Q. Now going to D-18/H. This patient -- do you

    13 know this person at all?

    14 A. I do.

    15 Q. And how well do you know the person?

    16 A. As well as one can know one's associates,

    17 one's business associates.

    18 Q. And have you known this person to be

    19 generally in good health when you knew him prior to the

    20 war?

    21 A. No, he's always had problems. He had an

    22 ulcer.

    23 Q. And I take it that if one did have a very

    24 serious ulcer and were placed in adverse conditions and

    25 in a prison, that that could exacerbate the problem?

  85. 1 A. It could, it could exacerbate it if there

    2 really was a disease of some kind.

    3 Q. Yes, just looking at Exhibit D-18/I for a

    4 moment. Do you notice the signature of the treating

    5 doctor here?

    6 A. Yes, I do.

    7 Q. And who is he, what's his or her name?

    8 A. Dr. Nada Petrovic.

    9 Q. And I think we asked you where Dr. Petrovic

    10 was, did you say the Netherlands?

    11 A. She's at Busovaca in the health centre,

    12 working.

    13 Q. Now, just looking at -- just moving on to the

    14 last one, 18/K, the very last one.

    15 Now, again you can only tell us so much, I know,

    16 because you are not the doctor that wrote this, but it

    17 talks about treatment at home absolutely necessary,

    18 because this patient has a bad heart condition. So,

    19 again, I think you'd agree with me that, obviously, the

    20 prescribing physician didn't consider that the

    21 conditions at the Kaonik Prison were in any way

    22 suitable for this person.

    23 A. Well, yes, the doctor must have thought that.

    24 Q. That would have included the requirement of

    25 people to do physical labour, such as dig trenches?

  86. 1 A. I guess so.

    2 Q. And the doctor is very clearly saying here

    3 that there is no choice in the matter, that it's

    4 absolutely necessary that the patient go home? We

    5 didn't get your answer, I don't think.

    6 A. Yes. Yes, the doctor thought that the

    7 patient should be at home.

    8 Q. And the person, Salih Hodzic, do you know

    9 Salih Hodzic?

    10 A. I do by sight.

    11 Q. Do you know this person to have a heart

    12 condition?

    13 A. Yes, I do.

    14 Q. And is it well-known in Busovaca that he has

    15 a heart condition?

    16 A. Well, it wasn't common knowledge. I mean,

    17 not everybody knew what everybody else suffered from,

    18 but the majority of patients, because Busovaca is

    19 small, of course we all knew them. We knew most of the

    20 patients and the patient himself would say, if I met an

    21 acquaintance, he would say, "Oh, yes, this one has this

    22 and that disorder and the diagnosis was such and such."

    23 So it may not be general knowledge, but --

    24 Q. How old was Salih Hodzic, approximately? I

    25 know you wouldn't know his precise date of birth, but

  87. 1 approximately.

    2 A. Well, approximately, I don't know. I really

    3 don't. But I think he could be around 50 something, 55

    4 maybe.

    5 Q. And you didn't understand him to be part of

    6 the military of Busovaca with his heart condition?

    7 A. No.

    8 MR. NIEMANN: I have no further questions,

    9 Your Honour.

    10 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Mr. Niemann.

    11 Mr. Mikulicic, do you have any questions, any

    12 additional questions?

    13 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour. We

    14 have no additional questions.

    15 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: Doctor, had the

    16 ambulances, I mean the health centre ambulances,

    17 identification as medical vehicles, such as Red Cross

    18 signs or something like that?

    19 A. Yes. Yes, they did have signs, Red Cross

    20 signs, and it was written on each of them "Busovaca

    21 Health Centre."

    22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Dr. Bilic, this is the end

    23 of your testimony here before the International

    24 Criminal Tribunal. The Chamber has no further

    25 questions to put to you, so we like to thank you for

  88. 1 coming and appearing, and we wish you a pleasant trip

    2 back to your country. Thank you.

    3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    4 (The witness withdrew)

    5 JUDGE VOHRAH: For the record, the question

    6 that was put by the Trial Chamber was not by Judge

    7 Vohrah, but Judge Nieto Navia. Thank you.

    8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: For the French translation,

    9 it was indeed Judge Nieto Navia.

    10 Mr. Mikulicic, it is now 1.00, 1.15. Is it

    11 worth it for us all now to proceed with the next

    12 testimony or should we leave this for tomorrow, because

    13 we only have 15 minutes?

    14 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: For the record, the

    15 clarification was made by Judge Vohrah and not by the

    16 Registrar.

    17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: We always try to arrive at

    18 the truth.

    19 Mr. Mikulicic, you have the floor.

    20 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, the Defence

    21 also believes that the next witness should not be

    22 interrupted in his testimony. Therefore, we would like

    23 to put him tomorrow morning. We should, therefore,

    24 from our point of view, finish today, and let the

    25 witness begin his testimony tomorrow morning. But

  89. 1 before we rise, we would like the documents identified

    2 as 18A to 18K be admitted into evidence.

    3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, no objection,

    4 I see. Therefore, it should be admitted.

    5 Now, following the proposal that has been

    6 made, I believe we are all in agreement that we can end

    7 today's session now and that we will meet tomorrow at 9

    8 a.m. Have a pleasant afternoon to you all.

    9 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 1.20 p.m.

    10 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 16th day of

    11 June, 1998.