1 Monday, 29 June 1998
2 (Open session)
3 (The witness entered court)
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.17 a.m.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, ladies and
6 gentlemen.
7 (The accused entered court)
8 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning. Today we are
9 sitting in a new hall where there are some slight
10 changes, but I hope that after a while, we shall get
11 used to them.
12 Today we have before us -- the registrar,
13 will you please tell us the case?
14 THE REGISTRAR: IT-95-14/1-T, the Tribunal
15 against Zlatko Aleksovski.
16 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you very much. Will
17 you please tell us who is presenting the Prosecution?
18 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours please, my name
19 is Niemann, and I appear with my colleague,
20 Mr. Meddegoda, for the Prosecution.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you, Mr. Niemann.
22 Mr. Mikulicic, will you tell us who is here
23 for the Defence?
24 MR. MIKULICIC: My name is Goran Mikulicic,
25 and with my colleague, Joka, I am representing the
1 Defence.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: All right. Mr. Mikulicic,
3 it is now your turn to begin.
4 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, we should like
5 to call the witness, Anto Jerkovic, who has already
6 been brought into the courtroom.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Good morning, Mr. Anto
8 Jerkovic. Can you hear me? I am speaking to you. Can
9 you hear me? You will now read the solemn declaration
10 which you have here before you.
11 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
13 truth.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: You may sit down, sir, and
15 answer the questions which Mr. Mikulicic will be asking
16 you. You may sit down.
17 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, in view of the
18 new circumstances or, rather, new environment in this
19 courtroom, permit me to address the witness from this
20 place because I have this documentation which is here,
21 at my bench, or am I supposed to go out and speak from
22 that microphone as it has been envisaged here? What do
23 you think?
24 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I believe that you can
25 speak from your place. No problem.
1 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honours. I
2 have just received a message from my Defendant that he
3 is not feeling well, that he has some health problems,
4 and he is kindly asking you if we could make a brief
5 recess to see what is wrong. Well, you can, of course,
6 see what the problem is, and whether we can then
7 continue?
8 If I may, Your Honour, I should like to talk
9 to my client to see what is wrong with him. Thank you
10 very much.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes.
12 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, Mr. Aleksovski
13 is not feeling well because, on his way to the court,
14 he has been put in a room which is very small and where
15 there is not air, and this environment, the ambient
16 atmosphere has affected his health. He says he feels
17 quite all right, but he needs a little bit more air.
18 So could he please be kept in some other room? In this
19 particular room, there is simply some bad smell, and it
20 affects him. So that is his basic problem. He
21 believes that it could be solved by simply taking a
22 very short break and taking him to a room which is
23 likely more airy and which is less contaminated by some
24 bad smell. I don't know what it's all about. I don't
25 know what it is.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Madam Registrar, is there a
2 way in which we could meet this request?
3 THE REGISTRAR: No. At the moment, I'm
4 afraid I cannot answer this question. During the
5 break, I could perhaps see -- the deputy registrar see
6 if we can move to another room.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Thank you. Mr. Mikulicic,
8 could we continue now, or does Mr. Aleksovski need a
9 break or something like that?
10 MR. MIKULICIC: Mr. Aleksovski says that he
11 will manage until the first break, and then we shall
12 see what we can do about moving him to another room, so
13 we can proceed.
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Right. So we shall then
15 proceed. Thank you very much.
16 WITNESS: ANTO JERKOVIC
17 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic
18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Jerkovic.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. My name is Goran Mikulicic, I am here for the
21 Defence, and I shall ask you some questions, and I will
22 ask you now some questions, and please answer them to
23 the best of your recollection.
24 Mr. Jerkovic, will you tell us where and when
25 were you born?
1 A. On the 6th of December, 1954, in Zenica.
2 Q. What is your ethnic origin?
3 A. I'm a Croat.
4 Q. Are you a believer?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What religion do you belong to?
7 A. Croat. I'm of the Croat religion.
8 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, will you tell us something
9 about your education?
10 A. I have grade -- elementary school.
11 Q. Where did you attend elementary school?
12 A. Stranjane. Elementary school, Luka Jelicic.
13 Q. Mr. Jerkovic --
14 JUDGE VOHRAH: There must some error in the
15 answer to the question what his religion was. It
16 couldn't be of the Croat religion, it must be something
17 else.
18 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you very much, Your
19 Honour. We shall correct that in a minute.
20 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, I asked you what religion did
21 you belong to. Were you Catholic or Orthodox?
22 A. Catholic.
23 Q. Roman Catholic, you mean. Sir, you said you
24 have elementary school. Where did you live during your
25 education?
1 A. In the village of Janjal near Zenica.
2 Q. What was your first job and where; do you
3 remember?
4 A. I do not remember the first time, but I
5 worked for a Sarajevo company at the Zenica steel
6 works. The acronym was BRALIM.
7 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, is it true that you got a job
8 with the penitentiary in Zenica?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you remember when it was?
11 A. 4th of April, 1978.
12 Q. What were you?
13 A. I was a guard, security.
14 Q. Therefore, as of 1978, you have been with the
15 penitentiary in Zenica as a security guard. Until when
16 were you there?
17 A. I worked there until -- I do not know
18 exactly, but until 1992, until I was mobilised as a
19 military policeman for the B and H army.
20 Q. In other words, while you were the guard of
21 the penitentiary, a war broke out in the territory of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And then the army of B and H mobilised you to
25 the military police; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. After that mobilisation, did you continue
3 keeping your job at the penitentiary or not?
4 A. I worked at the penitentiary, but there was a
5 department which was part of the military police but it
6 was within the penitentiary complex.
7 Q. I see. If I'm correct, you said it was
8 sometime in the latter half of 1992; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, while you were employed with
11 the penitentiary in Zenica, did you perhaps meet
12 Mr. Aleksovski there?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you remember when you met him for the
15 first time? When was that?
16 A. I cannot remember that.
17 Q. Do you remember what post -- what was
18 Mr. Aleksovski at the penitentiary in Zenica?
19 A. Yes. He was an educator.
20 Q. Would you recognise Mr. Aleksovski if you saw
21 him today?
22 A. Yes, by all means.
23 Q. Could you recognise him now, whether he's in
24 his room?
25 A. Yes. That is the gentleman up there.
1 MR. MIKULICIC: For the record, the witness
2 has indicated in the direction of the accused,
3 Mr. Aleksovski.
4 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you said, therefore, that
5 Mr. Aleksovski was an educator at the Zenica
6 penitentiary?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you tell us what was his -- how did he
9 treat the prisoners?
10 A. As far as I know, it was good, it was great.
11 Q. Could you then tell us -- of course, if you
12 know -- what was his duty as an educator at the
13 penitentiary? What did he do?
14 A. Well, he took care of the prisoners. I mean,
15 he took care of everything, about the state of their
16 health, about their leaves, weekends, and things like
17 that.
18 Q. I see. Can you remember if, at that time,
19 there were any problems between Mr. Aleksovski and the
20 inmates? Did they complain against him or not; do you
21 remember?
22 A. I don't remember. I don't recall that there
23 were ever any problems. Everything was, by and large,
24 quite normal.
25 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, do you remember if, at that
1 time, Mr. Aleksovski treated the prisoners differently
2 because of their religion, I mean Muslims or Croats?
3 Did he distinguish between them or did he treat them
4 all equally?
5 A. Equally.
6 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, at a later stage, towards the
7 end of 1992, you volunteered for the HVO; is that true?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Could you tell us to what HVO unit were you
10 assigned when you volunteered?
11 A. The military police again.
12 Q. The military police.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So where were you deployed? Where were you
15 when you became a member of the HVO military police?
16 A. I was deployed in Vitez, in Vitez, and then
17 when I came for the job, I was told that I would go to
18 Kaonik, to the prison in Busovaca.
19 Q. Do you remember when that was, roughly?
20 A. On the 7th of January, 1993.
21 Q. So you came to the military district prison
22 at Kaonik on the 7th of January, 1993, as a military
23 policeman. Could you tell us, were you security?
24 A. Prison security.
25 Q. In other words, as a guard?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I see. Mr. Jerkovic, while you were still
3 with the penitentiary in Zenica, which is again a
4 prison, isn't it --
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. -- do you remember under what Ministry was
7 that penitentiary in Zenica, under whose jurisdiction
8 was it?
9 A. I think it was the Ministry of Justice.
10 Q. You said on the 7th of January, 1993, you
11 were appointed as a guard at the district military
12 prison at Kaonik. Do you know under which Ministry was
13 it?
14 A. I think it was that same Ministry of Justice.
15 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, at the time when you came to
16 Kaonik to the district military prison, who were and
17 were there at all any prisoners at the district
18 military prison?
19 A. At the time when I came, there were some
20 under disciplinary measures which the commanders --
21 that is, people sanctioned by the commanders. There
22 were a couple of soldiers, I remember, perhaps one or
23 two soldiers, one or two persons against whom criminal
24 proceedings were being conducted by the military court.
25 Q. Do you remember which military court? From
1 where?
2 A. From Vitez.
3 Q. Do you remember if the district military
4 court in Travnik also had some detainees at the Kaonik
5 district prison?
6 A. The district military court in Travnik with a
7 seat in Vitez.
8 Q. So at the time when you came to Kaonik, you
9 found there some detainees detained there on two
10 different grounds. Some had been remanded into custody
11 by the district military court, and others were there
12 serving disciplinary punishment pronounced on some HVO
13 soldiers by their commanders; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were there some other persons at the district
16 military prison in Kaonik or only those that you have
17 just mentioned?
18 A. Only those that we have just mentioned.
19 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, do you remember how many guards
20 were employed by the district military prison in
21 Kaonik?
22 A. Well, I wouldn't know the exact number. I
23 can give you a rough figure because I do not remember
24 exactly. About 15 people.
25 Q. And how were they organised? Did they take
1 shifts or how?
2 A. Yes, they took shifts.
3 Q. Do you remember how many shifts were there,
4 one, two, three, four? How many shifts?
5 A. We worked 12, 24. Those were our working
6 hours.
7 Q. Does that mean 12 hours on duty and then 24
8 hours off and then again and so on?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I see. How many guards were on a shift?
11 A. On a shift, there were four, five people.
12 Five.
13 Q. Were all these guards members of the military
14 police or not?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were they all?
17 A. Again, yes.
18 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, do you remember the outbreak of
19 the conflict between Muslims and Croats in the area of
20 Busovaca in January 1993? Do you remember when it
21 began?
22 A. Yes, I do, on the 24th, 25th of January.
23 Q. Do you, perhaps, remember the event which
24 triggered this conflict, the event?
25 A. It began with the murder of Ivica Petrovic on
1 the road to the village of Dusina. It was that. I
2 think it was that event.
3 Q. Could you then tell us who was Ivica Petrovic
4 who was killed in the village of Kacuni? Was he a
5 Croat, a Serb, a Muslim?
6 A. A Croat.
7 Q. Could you tell us, that village of Kacuni
8 where the incident happened, the population who lived
9 in that village, was it a Muslim village or a Croat or
10 was it mixed; do you know?
11 A. Well, I'm not from Zenica, so I --
12 Q. So you don't know?
13 A. I don't.
14 Q. You said that this incident marked the
15 beginning of the conflict on the 25th of January, 1993
16 between Muslims and Croats in the area of the
17 municipality of Busovaca; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. After that event, did the conflict escalate?
20 I mean, the armed fighting? Was there any fire; do you
21 remember?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where were you at the time?
24 A. I was commuting. I was commuting from home
25 to work and back. As there were no problems and
1 nothing, so I commuted from work to home and from home
2 to work.
3 Q. At that time, you lived in Zenica still?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. As long as the roads were open, you travelled
6 normally from Zenica to Kaonik?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How far is it? Do you remember how many
9 kilometres?
10 A. I believe around 20, 25 kilometres, 22,
11 thereabouts.
12 Q. However, after the 25th when armed fighting
13 began, you could not travel any more; is that true?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Then you had to stay in Kaonik. You couldn't
16 go back to Zenica; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. At that time, did you stay within Kaonik?
19 Did you sleep there or live there?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, could you tell us, after the
22 conflict broke out in the area of the municipality of
23 Busovaca, do you remember if any civilians were brought
24 to Kaonik from the territory of Busovaca?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you remember how? Were they transported
2 to Kaonik? Were they brought by the HVO army or
3 somebody else?
4 A. By the military police, the army of HVO.
5 Q. What did the HVO policemen say when they
6 brought them to Kaonik?
7 A. That they had to be accommodated and that
8 they had to stay there until it calmed down, until
9 things became clearer.
10 Q. So is that true, that the military police
11 brought those people to accommodate them temporarily
12 until the conflict ended; is that what you were told?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. Were you present at the time when those
15 people were brought to Kaonik?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, the Kaonik facility, it was the
18 barracks of the former JNA; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. And that facility comprises several
21 buildings; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know what was the purpose of those
24 buildings in the JNA time?
25 A. Those were hangars, ammunition depot, I mean,
1 explosive devices.
2 Q. And one of those hangars which housed the
3 district military prison was rebuilt, redone into
4 cells; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How many cells were there in one of the
7 buildings which was redone in that manner?
8 A. About 14 or 15, I don't remember exactly, but
9 about 14 or 15.
10 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, can you tell us, in these
11 cells, were there already some detainees, as you told
12 us a moment ago? How many more people could be
13 accommodated there?
14 A. Well, one could put there -- well, about 50
15 to 60 people.
16 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Jerkovic, how many
17 people did the military police bring out of the
18 conflict in the territory of Busovaca to Kaonik? How
19 many of them? Was it more than 50 or 60 or less?
20 A. More.
21 Q. Does that mean, Mr. Jerkovic, that you could
22 not accommodate these people in the prison facilities?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So where did you put these people if you
25 could not put them in the prison facility?
1 A. There is a hangar next to this hangar, and
2 then we put them there, because down there they could
3 not fit in all.
4 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you said that you came to
5 Kaonik on the 7th of January, '93?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Has anyone from that day -- did anyone
8 between that day, the day when you were informed that
9 civilians would be brought in, did anybody there tell
10 you that this would happen?
11 A. No, nobody did.
12 Q. Does that mean that you could not prepare any
13 accommodation facilities for those people?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. But you nevertheless managed somehow; you
16 provided some accommodation. Could you tell us, what
17 did you do in order to provide them with some
18 accommodation facilities?
19 A. Well, we had some racks, some shelves that
20 were there. I don't know what they were for, and we
21 put them down there. And we took also some boards,
22 some wooden planks, to put them down, and some
23 blankets. So some they put underneath and some they
24 used to cover themselves.
25 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, the people that were brought by
1 the military police in Kaonik, did you, in any way,
2 make any lists about them?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What does it mean?
5 A. It was already dusk, and there was a table,
6 and all approached that table, and we put their names
7 on a list. And I know from previous experience in
8 Zenica how this protocol is made, so whether I was
9 there or somebody else -- and since I had the most
10 experience and the others hadn't such an experience
11 because they didn't work in penitentiaries before,
12 individually, we invited each of them to approach the
13 table and put their names, family names and first
14 names. And then we took some documents -- not
15 documents, but if they had something on them, knives
16 and other things, for security reasons.
17 Q. So you said that when these people were
18 approached that you made a list that identified
19 themselves and that you took away from them some
20 objects that could be, you know, arms, like knives; is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Tell me again, did you take some private
24 things from them like private possessions like money,
25 like watches, like jewellery, or did you leave that on
1 them?
2 A. We didn't take that because we didn't have
3 anywhere to put it. And it remained with them.
4 Q. You said that when they were brought, it was
5 already dark and that for the reception and a listing,
6 that it was done in a hangar that was above the prison;
7 is that correct?
8 A. Yes, it is correct.
9 Q. Was there any electricity in the hangar?
10 A. No.
11 Q. How could you see then? How could you write
12 their names and surnames? Did you have --
13 A. Well, we brought the candle. Because there
14 were frequent electricity cuts, we had candles, and I
15 brought one or two candles. And that's how we wrote
16 their names.
17 Q. You said, Mr. Jerkovic, that there were
18 frequent electricity cuts. Does that mean that the
19 situation was such that the entire facility of Kaonik
20 would remain without electricity?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you remember what was the situation with
23 water supply? Were there any cuts again?
24 A. That situation was poor too as far as water
25 supply is concerned. It was cold. The pipes broke.
1 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, however, in the vicinity of
2 that hangar, there was a well, is that correct, from
3 where you could take water when there was no water in
4 the facility, when the pipes broke down? Do you
5 remember, was there a well or not?
6 A. The well, it was not so close, yes, but we
7 did bring some water. It was further down there, but
8 we had some plastic containers later from which we took
9 water.
10 Q. So there were problems with water supply?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, tell us, the people who were
13 placed in that hangar, how did you organise -- what was
14 the organisation in the hangar when people had to go to
15 the toilet, when they had to wash themselves, to take a
16 bath?
17 A. Well, we did make some makeshift toilet
18 outside. So the guard who was there, the prisoner
19 would knock and they would let him out. And as for
20 washing, we had some -- we took from the army large
21 containers, and we brought water, and it was taken in
22 and then they could wash up their faces and...
23 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, so you were there with those
24 people, with people who were taken from Busovaca. Did
25 you personally notice or see that these people were
1 beaten or harassed or maltreated in any other way. Did
2 you see that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you find yourself in a situation that
5 some of these people would complain to you because of
6 the treatment of some guards or something like that?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did some of these people complain to you
9 about health problems or did they seek medical care?
10 A. Yes, there were such cases.
11 Q. What did you do then?
12 A. We took them to the outpatient units in
13 Busovaca to see the doctor.
14 Q. How did you take them there? Did you have a
15 vehicle?
16 A. Yes, we had a vehicle, but you never knew
17 what could happen because it broke down. So doctors
18 would frequently come to the prison in order to check
19 up on the prisoners or for some other business.
20 Q. Do you remember that somebody who sought
21 medical care or to see a doctor, that this was refused
22 or denied?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Does it mean that all those who sought
25 medical care could receive it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When you took those persons to the doctor in
3 Busovaca, how far is it from Kaonik? How many
4 kilometres?
5 A. Well, about five kilometres away.
6 Q. Were they handcuffed or were their hands tied
7 in any way?
8 A. No.
9 Q. When you took them to see a doctor, where did
10 they wait to see the doctor?
11 A. Well, where the other people were sitting,
12 like, civilians. There was an area where people were
13 waiting to see a doctor, and they were brought there,
14 and they waited along with the others.
15 Q. So there were no special protection and
16 safety measures like being handcuffed and surveillance
17 of these people when they were taken to see a doctor?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, do you remember when Zlatko
20 Aleksovski came to Kaonik; before or after you?
21 A. He came after, I think, at the start of
22 February. I can't remember exactly the date, at the
23 end of January.
24 Q. Do you remember the people that were brought
25 by military police from Busovaca, and these civilians,
1 how long did they say in Kaonik, until which date?
2 A. I can't remember exactly the date, but it was
3 for a short time, a very short time.
4 Q. I see. What was the food? What did these
5 people eat and where was the food brought to them, from
6 where?
7 A. We had all the same food. Some food was
8 brought from Draga. We had a kitchen down there, and
9 people would bring food, the same food for us and for
10 prisoners. It was the same food. There was no
11 difference. We all ate from the same mess.
12 Q. You said now that some part of the food was
13 brought from Draga. Is that Draga, was that a barrack,
14 an HVO barracks or what?
15 A. It was an HVO barrack.
16 Q. Was it in the area of Busovaca or somewhere
17 else?
18 A. In the area of Busovaca.
19 Q. You also said that food was prepared in a
20 kitchen that was part of the same facility in Kaonik;
21 is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where was the kitchen?
24 A. At the very entrance of the Kaonik barracks.
25 Q. Who was in that building? Who was
1 accommodated there in that facility which served as a
2 kitchen?
3 A. At the time, we had a cook who was preparing
4 food for us in the military police at that time.
5 Q. Was there also military policemen, not
6 guards, but members of the military police units?
7 A. Yes. There were some of them there.
8 Q. Is it then correct that the cook who prepared
9 food in that facility was cooking for members of the
10 military police who were accommodated in that facility
11 and for prisoners and detainees, civilians who were in
12 the district prison; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you remember, Mr. Jerkovic, what were the
15 meals? What kind of food did you eat?
16 A. For the most part, we had beans, potatoes,
17 you know, things like that, lentils.
18 Q. Was there any meat?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How many meals a day were prepared in this
21 way?
22 A. Three, three meals.
23 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, in the room in which people
24 were temporarily accommodated, in that hangar, was
25 there any heating there?
1 A. Yes, we had a furnace there, because there
2 were two in the prison, and then one was put up there.
3 Q. So you took the furnace up there when the
4 people were brought there in order to warm them up; is
5 that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember whether these people were
8 preparing tea on that furnace?
9 A. Yes, there were large utensils in which they
10 could prepare tea, and people were drinking tea all the
11 time.
12 Q. This furnace, what kind of fuel was used,
13 timber, oil?
14 A. Mostly timber, wood.
15 Q. Who was feeding the furnace?
16 A. They themselves did that.
17 Q. Where did they find wood? Was there enough
18 wood?
19 A. Well, not really, because we were cutting
20 wood around the prison because it is in the woods. So
21 we could cut wood there.
22 Q. If I understood you correctly, so there was
23 not enough wood that was prepared for heating, so you
24 had to cut wood in the surrounding woods; is that
25 correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Tell us, Mr. Jerkovic, we were discussing and
3 we heard that people could see a doctor if they sought
4 so in Busovaca. Do you remember that after seeing some
5 of these people, the doctor would seek, for instance, a
6 release on medical grounds; do you remember that? Were
7 there any cases like that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you accept those medical instructions?
10 Did you release those people and send them home?
11 A. Yes, we did accept the instructions from the
12 doctor.
13 Q. You also said that those people were
14 temporarily placed in that facility. And during that
15 time, did they have some compulsory obligations like
16 work; do you remember?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is it true that these civilians were taken
19 from Kaonik for compulsory work outside the Kaonik
20 facility?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you remember who would come to take them
23 out from Kaonik for compulsory work obligations?
24 A. The army, HVO.
25 Q. When the army came there and asked to be
1 given a certain number of people for compulsory work
2 obligation, what would they say? Where were they
3 taking them?
4 A. Trench digging.
5 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, how did you select people for
6 trench digging? Was it at random or did you have some
7 other way of who was going to do that? Can you explain
8 that?
9 A. We had a list of all people. When they were
10 brought to prison, because it was cold, all the people
11 were put to prison cells downstairs because we were
12 trying to put the elderly and the sick down there in
13 the prison.
14 Q. Why, because conditions were better?
15 A. Yes, precisely because of that. And the
16 others who were up there in the hangar, we had a list
17 and we selected -- there was a roll call, when we
18 needed 10 or 15 people, and we checked out or put a
19 mark of how many people were taken, so that we know who
20 was taken in order to avoid repetition, or all the same
21 people would be doing that job all the time.
22 Q. Is that then correct, that, in this way, you
23 took care to distribute the burden evenly?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you also take care about medical
1 recommendations, so when the doctor said that some
2 people should not be taken out to work?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You also said, Mr. Jerkovic, that for trench
5 digging and compulsory work obligation, that they were
6 taken by military police of the HVO. Did they drive
7 them also?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did somebody from the guards, from Kaonik,
10 accompany them or not?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Does it mean that when HVO army or military
13 police took them from Kaonik, that they were
14 responsible for those people?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, when these people were returned
17 to you from compulsory work obligation, when they were
18 returned to Kaonik, did you see or check that the same
19 people were returned to you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you notice at any time that some of the
22 people who were returned to you, that they were injured
23 or wounded, or did something like that happen?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What was your reaction? Did you take these
1 people to see the doctor?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you complain to the military police about
4 the injuring of these people when they were outside
5 Kaonik?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did it sometimes happen that people who were
8 taken away for compulsory work obligation were not
9 returned to Kaonik?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What would you then do when you saw that
12 somebody was not returned to you?
13 A. We would report about that, and then we would
14 ask them what happened, and we were told that they
15 escaped, simply that they escaped.
16 Q. Do you personally know that there were such
17 escapes from compulsory work obligation? Did you
18 personally know that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you perhaps know of a case, of an event
21 that happened shortly before these people were released
22 from Kaonik, were released to go home, that two of them
23 were taken for work obligation, that they died? Do you
24 know of such an event?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know that connected with that, that
2 criminal proceedings were instigated before a court
3 because of that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you also said that after
6 military police, HVO military police, would take people
7 out from Kaonik for their compulsory work obligation,
8 that they were then under their responsibility and
9 jurisdiction?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you know that people who were taken out
12 from Kaonik in this way were used as human shields?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did some of those people ever tell you that
15 they were used as a human shield at any occasion? Have
16 you heard something like that from anyone?
17 A. No, I haven't.
18 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you also said that Aleksovski
19 came to Kaonik at the end of January or beginning of
20 February, you can't remember the date. What was the
21 way in which he treated prisoners and people who were
22 detained, like civilians from Busovaca? What was his
23 treatment?
24 A. Good.
25 Q. Do you remember whether Aleksovski met their
1 requests in some ways, whether he would allow them to
2 go home, to take some clothing, or whether he allowed
3 them -- that their families brought them food? Do you
4 know?
5 A. Yes, things like that happened.
6 Q. Do you remember whether the people who were
7 Muslims by religion, whether these people had the
8 opportunity to observe their religious ceremonies?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Whether they used that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Whether somebody from the guards prevented
13 them from observing their religious beliefs?
14 A. To my knowledge, no.
15 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, do you remember that, in
16 Kaonik, precisely for that purpose, for religious
17 purposes, a Muslim priest or a hodja would arrive?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where did he come from, from which place; do
20 you know that? From Busovaca or from somewhere else?
21 A. I don't know where from, but he did arrive
22 there.
23 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, tell me, when this hodja would
24 arrive, did he have the opportunity to remain alone
25 with the believers for these religious purposes?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did somebody disturb them then?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you remember whether the priest or the
5 hodja, would he bring with him some food for his
6 believers?
7 A. Yes, he brought some cakes.
8 Q. We spoke about the Kaonik facility as a
9 former JNA barracks. Do you know that -- although you
10 are not from that area, but you did work there for some
11 time, do you know whether, in the area of Busovaca
12 there was any similar facility like the former JNA
13 barracks at Kaonik where a large number of people were
14 accommodated, or was Kaonik the only such facility in
15 the Busovaca area?
16 A. I think that Kaonik was the only such
17 facility.
18 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, the people who were brought
19 shortly after the first conflict broke out on the 25th
20 or 26th of January remained for some time in Kaonik.
21 You said you don't remember when they were released
22 from Kaonik. But in any case, after the first conflict
23 between the Croats and Muslims, there was a lull;
24 right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So occasionally the roads were secure and you
2 could use them -- how long did it last? -- when a new
3 armed conflict broke out in the Busovaca area?
4 A. I think in April.
5 Q. In April. Did any of the civilians that were
6 taken to Kaonik at the end of January, were they there
7 in February or March, until the renewal of armed
8 conflicts, or they were all released?
9 A. They were all released.
10 Q. So in the interval between the first conflict
11 at the end of January and the second conflict somewhere
12 in April, is it true then that in Kaonik only detainees
13 from the district military court were accommodated?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So no other civilians were there; is that
16 correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So when the conflict broke out for the second
19 time, and you already said it was in April, were again
20 people from the area of Busovaca, the municipality of
21 Busovaca, brought to Kaonik once again, as in the first
22 case?
23 A. Very few. Very few, not really, but there
24 were.
25 Q. Do you remember what villages those people
1 came, if you know those villages, as you are not a
2 local man?
3 A. No, I don't know.
4 Q. That second conflict was quite fierce; is
5 that true?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. At that time, some changes happened as
8 regards the guards at Kaonik; is that true?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is it true that in April, the guards, and you
11 just said those are military policemen, in Kaonik, were
12 mobilised from the prison and sent to the frontline?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In other words, sometime in April, you left
15 Kaonik?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Why did you have to leave Kaonik?
18 A. There were very few people, there was a lot
19 of problems, and on the frontline, simply very many
20 people, even those under disciplinary measures, were
21 released and sent to the frontline, and we also went to
22 the frontline.
23 Q. Does that mean that the Muslim attacks were
24 so forceful that all the men capable of defence had to
25 be mobilised?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did this involve also people who were under
3 disciplinary sanctions, rather, who were serving for
4 disciplinary reasons, were they also mobilised?
5 A. Yes, they were.
6 Q. Do you remember, after the guards, after the
7 military police left Kaonik, do you know who took over
8 the security of Kaonik?
9 A. Domobrans.
10 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, for the record, could you
11 explain who are Domobrans, what category of people are
12 they?
13 A. Well, these are mostly elderly men, over 50
14 or 60.
15 Q. Is it true that those people were reserve and
16 were mobilised as such?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. But who, in view of their age, were not
19 capable of participating in combat?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So these people were then appointed as guards
22 in Kaonik to replace the military police?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You mentioned that the defence lines, when
25 they were deployed, were actually very close to Kaonik;
1 is that true?
2 A. It is.
3 Q. Could you tell us how far was it from the
4 Kaonik facility, how far was the defence line from it?
5 A. Well, for instance, those sides which were
6 the closest, well, there was at the Lasva River, Bulva,
7 but as the crow flies, perhaps a kilometre, kilometre
8 and a half or two.
9 Q. Does that mean that the Kaonik facility, in
10 view of that nearness from the defence lines, as the
11 crow flies, does it mean that it was also exposed to
12 fire?
13 A. It was.
14 Q. Do you know, of your own knowledge, whether
15 any of the detainees or internees in Kaonik were
16 injured due to this, that is, suffer an injury because
17 of a shell or whatever which perhaps hit Kaonik?
18 A. I know that two or three Domobrans were
19 injured by shells.
20 Q. You're referring to guards, also Domobrans?
21 A. Domobrans.
22 Q. But were any of the prisoners injured?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, do you remember if Kaonik
25 prison and the whole facility was ever visited by
1 representatives of international organisations?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Which were those organisations?
4 A. The Red Cross.
5 Q. Did the representatives of the Red Cross
6 visiting Kaonik have an opportunity of talking to
7 prisoners and internees? Could they talk to them?
8 A. They could.
9 Q. Could they talk to them, that is, without the
10 presence of guards?
11 A. Yes, they could.
12 Q. Could the prisoners send letters or messages
13 to their families through the Red Cross?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In that sense, that is communication through
16 the Red Cross, did the prison guards or the prison
17 warden ever forbid any such communication?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Since we mention now the prison warden, we
20 shall also say something about Mr. Aleksovski. You
21 said he arrived sometime towards the end of January or
22 early February to become the commander of the prison;
23 is that correct?
24 A. It is.
25 Q. Was Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski a member of the
1 military police like the guards in Kaonik?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you know if he was a member of any other
4 military unit, if not the military police, was he a
5 member of any military unit?
6 A. No.
7 Q. But, Mr. Jerkovic, we've heard in the earlier
8 proceedings from witnesses that they saw Mr. Aleksovski
9 in a military uniform at times. Did you ever see him
10 wearing a military uniform?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did he have any insignia, any patches or any
13 rank insignia, on his uniform?
14 A. No. At the time, everybody sported such
15 uniforms. I mean, I saw him usually wearing a vest and
16 also civilian trousers or something like that, or even
17 those military -- German military jumpers or something
18 like that.
19 Q. You mentioned jumpers of the German army.
20 Could you remind us all here in the courtroom what kind
21 of jumpers are those? What are they?
22 A. Well, they are sweaters, knitwear, and they
23 have something in leather and then the flag, I think,
24 or something like that.
25 Q. So it was a military sweater with a German
1 flag on the sleeve; is that correct?
2 A. It is.
3 Q. Once (sic) those sweaters?
4 A. Once.
5 Q. I'm asking you so that the Court could hear.
6 Could you buy them in a shop?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was it kind of aid or relief that was sent in
9 clothing?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you mentioned that
12 Mr. Aleksovski wore a military uniform at times but
13 that it was a common sight at the time, that is,
14 civilians wore them. Why was that so? What do you
15 think? Could the reason be that the supply in clothing
16 and footwear was poor?
17 A. Well, yes. There were quite a number of
18 people from Zenica, and they had nothing. They had no
19 clothes or shoes, and they wore whatever they could lay
20 their hands on.
21 Q. So in the territory or municipality of
22 Busovaca, there were also Croat refugees from Zenica
23 and other parts?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, were you present when a
1 prisoner or internee complained to the International
2 Red Cross representatives or international observers of
3 the treatment they would receive from the guards or
4 others in the prison? Have you ever heard anything
5 like that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you ever see anyone ill-treat those
8 people, I mean, guards or somebody else of those who
9 were serving terms for either crimes or for
10 disciplinary reasons?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Do you remember any incidents when HVO
13 members might try to enter the prison or did enter the
14 prison and do something there; do you remember any such
15 events?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When HVO soldiers would break into the
18 prison, would the guards manage to stop those soldiers
19 or did sometimes they manage to get in?
20 A. Yes, at times they did get in.
21 Q. Why was it that the guards could not prevent
22 them from entering the prison?
23 A. Because they were all armed. Everybody
24 carried weapons, and then what? What to do?
25 Q. Do you know if, after such events, you or
1 some other guard or the prison warden would notify the
2 military command and say that steps had to be taken
3 against such perpetrators?
4 A. Yes, the warden did. He submitted a report
5 that they had been there and that measures should be
6 taken.
7 Q. Do you know if any measures were taken
8 against those perpetrators? Do you know that?
9 A. I think -- I believe there were.
10 Q. Was that a daily occurrence?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Does it mean that such situations were an
13 exception?
14 A. Yes, they were an exception.
15 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you were an HVO soldier, you
16 were a military policeman, you took part in the defence
17 of the municipality of Busovaca, you were on the
18 frontline. Did you ever see near you or in the
19 municipality of Busovaca or in Kaonik a soldier bearing
20 the insignia "HV"?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you ever see a soldier with some other
23 insignia other than HVO?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you spent almost the whole of
1 January there, then February, March, and a large part
2 of April, so four months you were a guard in Kaonik?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So during that time, you could really get
5 familiar with the prison, with the conditions there.
6 So could you describe to us this lower part, this lower
7 floor where the cells were, were they locked by key or
8 did they have a bolt or what?
9 A. They did not have a key, but there were two
10 bolts on the upper part of the door and on the lower
11 part of the door. There were no keys.
12 Q. How many persons could be put in a cell,
13 roughly?
14 A. Well, while we had those pallets (sic) there,
15 there were perhaps five or six persons.
16 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, but were there any such
17 situations where more than five or six persons were in
18 a cell?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was it for a long period of time or --
21 A. No, it was only provisional. That was that
22 first conflict when we separated those elderly; then at
23 times, there were even as many as 10 or 15, but they
24 did not care that they could lie down or sit down or
25 read, only to be warm or to be comfortable.
1 Q. But that situation did not last for long?
2 A. No, it is quite true. It did not.
3 Q. How long did it last?
4 A. Well, I don't know. A few days perhaps or a
5 week, something like that.
6 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, now I'm referring to the second
7 conflict in particular. Do you recall any situation
8 when the population of nearby villages, where the
9 fighting was taking place, would they come to Kaonik
10 seeking protection? Were there such cases?
11 A. Yes, there were.
12 Q. What did you do when people came to you and
13 asked you to be shielded from the conflict? Did you
14 let them enter and offer them shelter, or did you
15 refuse them?
16 A. No, we did not refuse them, no. People were
17 afraid. Skradno, for instance, it was the frontline,
18 and those places, and they were safer there than at
19 home.
20 Q. So you provided no (sic) accommodation and
21 food; is that true?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. But that was also for a few days or for a
24 longer period of time?
25 A. For several days.
1 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, who were those people who asked
2 for protection? Were they Croats, Muslims, or who?
3 A. Muslims.
4 Q. Was there enough food at Kaonik?
5 A. I believe there was. For a while, we did not
6 have three meals a day, we only had two, but it was for
7 everybody. I mean, everybody got two meals. Simply
8 the supply was bad, and for a while, we could not. So
9 that for a while, we had to cut it down to two meals.
10 Q. Did it take long? How long did it last; do
11 you remember?
12 A. Well, not -- not really. I should say for
13 about 20, 25 days, or maybe a month, but not more.
14 Q. But when was that? During the first or
15 during the second conflict; do you remember that?
16 A. I do not remember exactly.
17 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, at the time when there was
18 enough food, did you meet the request of those persons
19 who wanted a second helping? Could you help those who
20 simply asked for more?
21 A. Well, we distributed food as long as there
22 was, and as much as we could. Yes, I know there was
23 one who -- who was really hungry at lunchtime, and I
24 think he had some six or seven helpings. We kept
25 pouring him food, and he ate as long as he could.
1 Q. Is it true that you never put any limits on
2 the food that you had at your disposal?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. And that you got the same food as the
5 prisoners?
6 A. The same food.
7 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you mentioned that there were
8 the toilet facilities, which was a makeshift thing, and
9 it was outside the building, outside the second hangar,
10 but how about the first building where the cells were?
11 A. Well, there we had the toilet facility
12 within -- inside the prison, near the cells, so there
13 was also a bathroom and the WC.
14 Q. Was this the prisoners' WC?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the guards used the same facility?
17 A. No, they had their own.
18 Q. So this WC was at the disposal of prisoners?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you were a prison guard for
21 quite a long time and became familiar with conditions
22 in the prison, at the penitentiary in Zenica. Apart
23 from Zenica, and I'm not referring to Kaonik, did you
24 work anywhere else?
25 A. Only there. Only Zenica and Kaonik.
1 Q. But you do have some experience as regards
2 the prison guards and their treatment, their attitude
3 to prisoners; is that true?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So, Mr. Jerkovic, how would you describe the
6 attitude of Mr. Aleksovski as the warden of the
7 district military prison in Kaonik towards the
8 prisoners and detainees, that is, the civilians also,
9 who were brought during the first and the second
10 conflict to Kaonik? How would you describe his
11 attitude to them?
12 A. I think that Zlatko did really all he could
13 for all these people, and I really think that these
14 people -- that quite a number of these people should be
15 quite grateful to Zlatko, and I mean Zlatko in person,
16 because all that could be done through the Red Cross
17 and through all those, all that one could -- and as far
18 as one could, it was like that. There were no
19 problems, visits or visits home or bringing food or
20 whatever.
21 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, does that mean that you did not
22 ever hear that he ever refused to do something, to do
23 something that was within his power?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did he ever refuse to give people food?
1 A. Oh, come, no.
2 Q. Did he ever deny them medical help, if need
3 be?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did he ever interfere, if such incidents
6 occurred, did he ever report to the military police
7 that they were happening?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did Zlatko Aleksovski, in your view -- could
10 Zlatko Aleksovski, if you know, send a military
11 policeman or an HVO soldier responsible for an incident
12 punish personally or could answer disciplinary measure
13 against him, could he do that? Did he have such
14 authority?
15 A. No, no.
16 Q. But who had the authority to punish a
17 military policeman for an omission or perhaps a
18 transgression?
19 A. A commander.
20 Q. The commander of what?
21 A. The commander of the military police.
22 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, I have only just one more, a
23 very short question.
24 Mr. Jerkovic, you mentioned in the beginning
25 that you organised the reception of those people and
1 that you did what you could under the circumstances,
2 that nobody had announced that those people would be
3 brought in. Could you tell us, in your view, if you
4 did what you could under the circumstances to
5 accommodate those people in Kaonik?
6 A. I believe I did.
7 Q. Did you give them something that you -- was
8 there something that you didn't give them and you
9 could? I mean, were there any medicines or something
10 that you had in storage and yet you did not provide
11 those people with?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Does that mean that all that you had at your
14 disposal, I mean, food, doctors' help, hygiene,
15 et cetera?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you remember, if any of those people who
18 were temporarily in Kaonik, did he ever suffer, fall
19 seriously?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Was anyone injured, have a wound, a fracture
22 or something?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Was anybody killed within the Kaonik
25 facility?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you ever see anyone being beaten within
3 Kaonik?
4 A. No.
5 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you very much, Your
6 Honours. We have no further questions.
7 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I have just learned that
8 measures have been taken to meet the request of
9 Mr. Aleksovski, but it takes a long time, so that at
10 the moment, we shall make -- and I think it is a good
11 moment to take a break, and the break will be 30
12 minutes.
13 MR. MIKULICIC: Excuse me. I have just
14 received another message from my client. Yesterday, a
15 doctor visited him because his pressure has gone up,
16 and he is asking if he could stay in the courtroom
17 during the break because he feels much better here --
18 this is a larger room and the air is much better --
19 and not to be taken to the small room in which he was
20 accommodated previously.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes, I think that
22 Mr. Aleksovski can stay here, but then we do not need
23 30 minutes, and in that case, the break will be 20
24 minutes only. Twenty minutes.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
2 (The accused entered court)
3 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, can we
4 continue?
5 MR. NIEMANN: I'll try it at this stand.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: All right. You can now
7 continue. You can start your cross-examination, if you
8 like.
9 MR. NIEMANN: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Cross-examined by Mr. Niemann:
11 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, you said that you were working
12 in the Zenica prison, I think, as a guard from between
13 1978 and 1992; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, that prison, did that come under the
16 administration of the Department of Justice as well?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Who provided the police? Sorry, who provided
19 the guards, I mean, the guards that were at the prison
20 in Zenica?
21 A. I think the same.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me, Mr. Niemann, I
23 believe we have a problem. The reporter cannot hear.
24 MR. NIEMANN: I'll move back, Your Honours,
25 if it's easier.
1 JUDGE RODRIGUES: All right. Thank you.
2 Yes, you can continue, thank you very much. But
3 perhaps you could start from the beginning because the
4 court reporter could not hear anything.
5 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours please.
6 Q. I asked you a moment ago, and we just have to
7 repeat it for the purposes of the court reporter, but I
8 think it's your evidence that from 1978, or
9 thereabouts, to 1992, you were a guard at Zenica, at
10 the Zenica prison?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. As I understand it, the prison itself came
13 under the administration of the Department of Justice
14 in Zenica. And the guards, they were supplied by the
15 police, were they?
16 A. I don't know. Which police do you imply, the
17 military or the guards in the prison? Because I worked
18 as a guard in the penitentiary which was a civilian
19 institution, or do you imply a military institution?
20 Q. That's really what I was trying to get at. I
21 was wondering if you could help me with that. It was a
22 civilian institution. Were the guards provided by the
23 civilian police, I think you called it the MUP, or was
24 there some other arrangement with respect to the
25 guards?
1 A. MUP, no, because we went to the justice
2 ministry to be ordained in the police, if I may say so.
3 Q. Now, Zenica, I take it, at least during the
4 time you were there, was a civilian prison and not a
5 military prison like Kaonik?
6 A. A civilian, yes.
7 Q. Now, I think you said in 1992 you were then
8 mobilised into the military police. You were mobilised
9 into the military police of the army of
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And that was still in Zenica?
13 A. In the Zenica penitentiary.
14 Q. So you continued on in the Zenica prison but
15 this time as a member of the military police of the
16 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So I take it that, at least at some time in
19 1992, Zenica prison changed its classification from
20 that of a civilian prison to a military prison, because
21 obviously you were there as a military policeman?
22 A. One of our departments -- there were five
23 departments in the Zenica prison, and the fifth
24 department, when we began the war with the Serbs, the
25 number of the prisoners were decreased, they were
1 released conditionally, so there were a small number of
2 them. And the fifth unit was then separated. It was
3 already separated, and then it was appointed for the
4 Serbs who were arrested in the Zenica area, in the
5 villages. And they were brought there in the fifth
6 unit, and this is where I was employed, because
7 military policemen who had no experience could not do
8 that. So there were about four of us who were
9 mobilised for the military police for the
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina army.
11 Q. What are you saying? Are you saying that in
12 1992 not all the guards at the Zenica prison joined the
13 military police of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but
14 only some of them; is that what you're saying?
15 A. No. Yes, yes.
16 Q. I might just get you to clarify that, if I
17 may. Are you saying that only some of the guards
18 joined the military police of the army of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina? I need to get it clear for the
20 transcript. That's all.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, when you met Mr. Aleksovski
23 in the Zenica prison, I think you described him as an
24 educator. What role did he play there?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. What did he do?
2 A. He had his own job. He was educator. He was
3 in charge of one of the units, and he was in charge of
4 that unit entirely. He cared about the prisoners. He
5 was in charge of their release. He decided when they
6 would go home or when they would be taken, about their
7 health care, about everything. I mean, he was like a
8 mother to them.
9 Q. Was he the warden at the Zenica prison?
10 A. No.
11 Q. So somebody else was the warden, was there,
12 at Zenica?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that was right up until the time in 1992
15 when you finally went to the HVO?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When you were in Zenica, was Mr. Aleksovski
18 your superior?
19 A. No.
20 Q. But he was in a more senior position than
21 you, I take it?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, I think your evidence is that you went
24 to Kaonik in 1993, and you arrived there before
25 Mr. Aleksovski had taken up the position as warden or
1 commander of the prison at Kaonik?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, do you know who was there ahead of him
4 as warden or commander of the prison in Kaonik when you
5 arrived?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You didn't know who the person was that was
8 in charge?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Was there anyone in charge in that stage that
11 you can remember?
12 A. No, there was just military police.
13 Q. So they didn't have a warden then?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Tell me about it. How did you transfer from
16 the military police of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina
17 to the HVO? How did you go about that?
18 A. I sought myself the transfer because I wanted
19 to go to the HVO.
20 Q. Did you have to be discharged from the
21 military police of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
22 A. No.
23 Q. I take it you just did this off your own bat,
24 did you? You just decided that you would join the HVO,
25 so you left the military police of the army of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina and simply went to the HVO of your
2 own accord?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you remember when it was, as best you
5 can, when Mr. Aleksovski came to the Kaonik prison?
6 A. I can't remember the exact date, somewhere at
7 the start of February, around that time, at the end of
8 January and the beginning of February, sometime around
9 that date.
10 Q. You don't know whether he was there at the
11 time the conflict started in the Busovaca region? You
12 can't remember?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Now, just going back to the time you're in
15 Zenica and you said the prison came under the Ministry
16 of Justice, how did you know that? How did you know it
17 came under the Ministry of Justice?
18 A. I knew that. Simply, I knew that, because
19 when the police was also under the justice ministry, I
20 simply received salaries and wages from the Ministry of
21 Justice. And we also had something for medical
22 checkups, because the envelopes were stamped "Ministry
23 of Justice."
24 Q. When you went over to Kaonik, I think that's
25 a military prison, how did you know it was a military
1 prison? What made you believe that to be so?
2 A. I knew that because I saw that most of the
3 people who worked there were military policemen. There
4 were no civilians, because I wouldn't be then
5 transferred there. I would wear another uniform. I
6 wouldn't bear the insignia of military police.
7 Q. Now, you said that after about the 25th of
8 January, 1993, because of the conflict, you couldn't
9 get back to your home town near Zenica, so you
10 continued staying -- or you stayed on in Kaonik. Where
11 did you stay? Where were your accommodations in
12 Kaonik?
13 A. I slept in the same room in which we worked,
14 and the others who were from Busovaca went home. I had
15 an office, and there was a sofa, it was near the table,
16 and we could use it to sit on. And in the evening, I
17 used it as a sofa bed.
18 Q. This was in the cell block, was it, part of
19 the cell block?
20 A. No, no, no. Yes, in the same building, but
21 the cells block was separate. There was a steel door,
22 and this was before the cells.
23 Q. This is what I meant. It wasn't a cell, but
24 it was in the same block. I think that
25 Mr. Aleksovski's office was close to that guards'
1 quarters as well, wasn't it, across the hall or
2 something like that?
3 A. At that time, it was the same office. After
4 he arrived, when he arrived there, we used it -- we
5 worked there, and we used it to sleep as well for
6 sometime until the office was then transferred to the
7 lower part at the entrance, actually. At Kaonik,
8 there's a facility where the warden use -- which the
9 warden uses as his office.
10 Q. Yes. And that happened much later, I think,
11 that the warden moved to the facility at the entrance?
12 A. No, no. The warden, when he arrived at the
13 facility, he used the office at the entrance.
14 Q. I see. What about the office in the cell
15 block, did Mr. Aleksovski use that office along with
16 you guards as well from time to time?
17 A. Well, yes, he would climb up there and he
18 would stay in the same room.
19 Q. Now, you spoke of the civilians being brought
20 to the camp or the facility when the conflict broke
21 out. Who determined where they were to be
22 accommodated? I take it things were a bit cramped at
23 the time when all these people arrived on your
24 doorstep. Who made the decisions about where people
25 would be accommodated?
1 A. Well, we organised ourselves, and these were
2 the guards who did that, because people had to be
3 accommodated somewhere. When there was enough room, we
4 put them in the prison building. When there was no
5 more room, we had to use the hangar.
6 Q. I think you said that you were somewhat taken
7 by surprise when all these people came. That's your
8 evidence, isn't it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you have a meeting with Mr. Aleksovski
11 and the other guards to determine what you were going
12 to do with this problem that had presented itself to
13 you?
14 A. At that time, Mr. Aleksovski was not there.
15 It was just military police.
16 Q. Well, later on when Mr. Aleksovski came, did
17 you have meetings with him about the situation there
18 and the placement and movement of prisoners?
19 A. When he came, well, there were no people,
20 detainees, at the upper hangar. There was nobody at
21 the upper hangar.
22 Q. You're quite sure of that?
23 A. To my knowledge, yes.
24 Q. Well, did you have meetings with
25 Mr. Aleksovski from time to time as the warden meeting
1 with the guards?
2 A. Yes, with Mr. Aleksovski because I knew him
3 from Zenica. We stayed at a hotel in Vitez for
4 sometime, so we had quite a good relationship, because
5 I knew him from the Zenica prison. So when he came, we
6 stayed together.
7 Q. What was his procedure for communicating his
8 orders and so forth to the guards? Would he put it on
9 a notice board or would he have meetings or both?
10 A. For the most part, he put it on a notice
11 board. If there was something for us, he put it on a
12 notice board.
13 Q. Where was this notice board located? That
14 was in the guards' area, was it?
15 A. It was in a corridor at the entrance to the
16 building.
17 Q. Did you ever receive things, letters,
18 memorandums, or did he communicate with you that way at
19 all, that you can remember?
20 A. With me, there was no written
21 communications. I don't remember.
22 Q. Do you remember him sending written
23 communications to other guards at any stage on any
24 matter, on any sort of matter?
25 A. I don't remember.
1 Q. What about drawing up the shift roster? Did
2 Mr. Aleksovski draw up the shift roster and pin that on
3 the notice board?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Who was responsible for doing that?
6 A. That was my responsibility.
7 Q. And you would confer with him, I take it, and
8 let him know what you decided about who would be on
9 duty?
10 A. Since I was a military police, he had nothing
11 to do with that. It was our job to secure the prison.
12 And this is in the jurisdiction of military courts, and
13 this is what we did. And as for the other ...
14 Q. But Mr. Aleksovski was responsible for people
15 certainly that would have been put there by the
16 military court, wasn't he?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So if he wanted to move one of those
19 prisoners from one place to another or, indeed, even to
20 release him, he would have to give you an instruction
21 about that, I take it?
22 A. Yes. If there was a need for a transfer,
23 this is what we did. If we were told that somebody
24 should be moved from number 5 to number 4, it was
25 logical that we should do that.
1 Q. Now, I think that we have also heard evidence
2 that the military judge who was responsible for putting
3 people there was also concerned to see about things
4 like hygiene, food and treatment and so forth. No
5 doubt if there was any matters of that nature that had
6 been passed on to Mr. Aleksovski, he would talk to you
7 about it, would he, in your position there?
8 A. I don't remember.
9 Q. Now, with respect to matters of medical
10 attention and hygiene and that, some of the prisoners
11 would speak to Mr. Aleksovski directly about those
12 issues, would they?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I think, on some occasions, he himself took
15 civilian detainees into Busovaca for medical attention?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. On other occasions, he would request some of
18 the guards to do that or a guard to do that, I take it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, when a prisoner had sought medical
21 attention, they would speak to the guards first or to
22 Mr. Aleksovski, or was there no set procedure?
23 A. We had a book in which every day, since 7.00
24 a.m. when we started work until breakfast, where people
25 all had to write if they want to see a doctor. And
1 they would be taken to see a doctor during the day.
2 Because we had a car, we had a court, and when the car
3 was there, when we didn't have to go to court, we would
4 take them to go see the doctor.
5 Q. Now, Mr. Aleksovski used to drive this car?
6 A. Yes, quite frequently.
7 Q. Now, are you saying, is it your evidence that
8 if guards at the prison had beaten the prisoners, that
9 Mr. Aleksovski would take disciplinary action against
10 them?
11 A. There were no such cases in the prison. And
12 as for military police, Aleksovski had nothing to do
13 with us.
14 Q. So Mr. Aleksovski at no stage did anything in
15 relation to beatings of prisoners that you're aware of
16 in terms of disciplining them or reporting them or
17 taking action?
18 A. There were no beatings from the military
19 police, or if something had to be done, Mr. Aleksovski,
20 I guess he could speak to the commander of the military
21 police, but not to us.
22 Q. Now, you did mention, of course, that he
23 reported the HVO coming into the prison. How did you
24 know that? How do you know he reported the HVO coming
25 into the prison and beating prisoners?
1 A. Because there were cases when he would be
2 there and they would be there, and it is logical that
3 they would talk about something.
4 Q. How do you know that he did it? How do you
5 know that he actually took the step of reporting these
6 HVO beating the prisoners?
7 A. I know because there's a paper. I know that
8 he reported and that measures were taken against those
9 people, because the people who -- because there were
10 some threats like, "Why would he report that? Why
11 should he do that?" I mean, what do I know?
12 Q. Who threatened who?
13 A. Well, those who would intrude the prison in
14 some cases. And when they threatened Mr. Aleksovski,
15 and they were threatening him and it was a time of war,
16 and everybody was carrying weapons, and, you know,
17 anything could happen.
18 Q. Now, did the guards of the prison have access
19 to weapons?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Wouldn't they be employed against the HVO who
22 were coming into the prison?
23 A. Well, taking that the prison was a building,
24 there was no gate, for instance, like in Zenica prison,
25 so that you can see who was coming and from where and
1 what his intentions are. Because the arms were stacked
2 there on the shelf, and when somebody arrives with a
3 gun, three or four of them, what can you do? Then we
4 have to unlock the place where the arms were kept.
5 Q. But you could have locked the prison,
6 couldn't you, if you wanted to? It wasn't locked, you
7 said, just the bolt slipped across, but you could have
8 locked it if you wanted to?
9 A. The door was locked. From the inside, there
10 was a bolt, and this door was locked. And when
11 somebody wants to get out, they would knock. So when
12 somebody was coming at the door, we wouldn't know what
13 was the reason, what were they wanting.
14 Q. But if you wanted to keep the HVO out, you
15 could have locked the door from the inside?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So why didn't you do that?
18 A. The door, even if they were, they could
19 simply -- they were the guards. If somebody wants to
20 do something, there was a window where the guards were
21 sitting, a window, just a glass, a simple glass was
22 there, and if they wanted to do, they would just knock
23 on the glass, and they could see you, you could see
24 them.
25 Q. They could have, but they didn't break in at
1 any stage, these HVO soldiers; they'd just come in,
2 wouldn't they?
3 A. Yes, but who would know that they -- that we
4 would know that they would be intruding.
5 Q. Well, I mean, if you had someone from the
6 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina come up to the camp and
7 decide to come in, you would have stopped them from
8 coming in at the time?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Niemann, the
10 interpreters are asking you to speak into the
11 microphone. They cannot hear you.
12 A. Because they would have to cross the line
13 first before coming there.
14 Q. The point of what I'm trying to put to you is
15 that if you wanted to stop people from coming in, you
16 certainly could have stopped them, and I give to you an
17 instance that, for example, if a soldier from the army
18 of Bosnia-Herzegovina tried to gain access to the
19 Kaonik facility, you would have stopped them?
20 A. Let me tell you the following: It never
21 happened to me, to me personally. It did happen to
22 people who were from Busovaca, and the people who
23 intruded in the prison were also from Busovaca, because
24 he would come down there, in the lower part, the
25 military police, and they knew each other from
1 childhood, and he would simply open the door then.
2 These people never worked in such institutions before,
3 and they had no -- you know.
4 Q. You spoke of the fact that Mr. Aleksovski
5 would allow prisoners to go -- civilians, detainees, to
6 go home when the doctors had suggested that this was
7 the best treatment for them. Is that your evidence?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I take it that Mr. Aleksovski -- it's your
10 evidence that Mr. Aleksovski would also decide on
11 whether or not they should receive special medical care
12 as was ordered by the doctors in relation to the
13 civilian detainees?
14 A. I don't understand.
15 Q. Well, if they were to receive medicines or
16 special food or anything of that nature, Mr. Aleksovski
17 would -- is it your evidence that he would provide for
18 that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And Mr. Aleksovski would also decide on
21 whether or not these civilian detainees could be
22 exchanged?
23 A. I don't know. What do you mean by
24 "exchanged"?
25 Q. Well, you knew that prisoners were exchanged,
1 didn't you, and that they went to Zenica?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Mr. Aleksovski was responsible for that,
4 wasn't he?
5 A. Zlatko Aleksovski didn't do that on his own
6 initiative, off his own bat. I mean, there was
7 somebody else with whom to do the exchange.
8 Q. That was the International Committee of the
9 Red Cross representatives that you're talking about, is
10 it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, you mentioned these civilian detainees.
13 I think you said one group came at the end of January
14 and stayed there for some weeks. That's your evidence,
15 isn't it?
16 A. Towards the end of January.
17 Q. Yes, they came at the end of January, and
18 they stayed up until when? May? April? How long did
19 they stay there for? When were they exchanged?
20 A. No, it did not last more than seven or eight
21 days, ten perhaps at the most. I don't remember the
22 date. But ten days on the outside, a week to ten days.
23 Q. But not all of the civilian detainees were
24 exchanged, were they? There were some that were left
25 behind in the facility.
1 A. I believe they all left.
2 Q. If I said to you that there's been evidence
3 before the court that not all of them left, you
4 wouldn't disagree with that, I take it?
5 A. No.
6 Q. What was your position? You were a shift
7 commander, were you?
8 A. I was a military policeman. But because I
9 did this and I saw people did not know, then I mostly
10 did those shifts, and I met those people, I knew
11 people, and what could happen and what needed to be
12 done and so ...
13 Q. So you were responsible for drawing up the
14 roster; I think that's what you said a moment ago.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In order to do that, you needed to know when
17 people would come and people would be available?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, if somebody needed to take leave or be
20 away because of illness or anything like that, would
21 they come to you or would they go to Mr. Aleksovski to
22 seek permission to be absent?
23 A. To me. To me, but there were -- but there
24 were quite a number of such instances because some
25 people lived somewhere, and suddenly there would be an
1 attack of the frontline or he couldn't turn up, he
2 could not come, and there were some people who lived
3 right next to the frontline and it was far, and that he
4 simply goes to the frontline and simply doesn't turn up
5 for work because that's where his family is and where
6 everybody is, and I go to the frontline -- I go to the
7 frontline so that it isn't broken through, and that's
8 that.
9 Q. Now, when you were in the Kaonik facility
10 working as a guard there, you would have worked on
11 shift yourself, I take it?
12 A. Well, I didn't exactly work in shifts, but
13 since I slept there, while I was there, I stayed there
14 for a while, and afterwards ...
15 Q. What happened afterwards?
16 A. And afterwards, when Mr. Aleksovski came,
17 then we worked until 2.00 or 3.00 or 5.00 and then we
18 went to sleep in Vitez Hotel.
19 Q. So you and Mr. Aleksovski were actually
20 together in the Vitez Hotel?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, at those times when you weren't at the
23 camp, you were at the Vitez Hotel, you couldn't vouch
24 for what was happening to the prisoners in the camp?
25 A. Well, not really. There was a man who was
1 the head of the shift who is responsible, who had a
2 book, and then reported every morning -- every morning
3 when I would come for work, he would report what has
4 happened, if there were any new arrivals, if anybody
5 had been released, so he had a book.
6 Q. If somebody had been beaten, a prisoner had
7 been beaten during the course of the night when he was
8 on duty, unless he reported it to you the next morning,
9 you wouldn't know whether or not the prisoners were
10 beaten or not?
11 A. Every morning, when I came to work, I would
12 do a round of all cells, every morning, and I would
13 talk to people, "What has been going on?" "How are
14 you?" "Did you sleep well?" Things like that. And I
15 think -- I believe that anyone would have complained to
16 me if there had been any problem: This so and so has
17 done this and that. I mean, if anything like that had
18 happened.
19 Q. Now, I think you went to the front when the
20 second stage of fighting broke out in April of 1993.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. After that, when you went to the front in
23 April, you would have had no further connection with
24 the Kaonik prison?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. So whatever happened after April, the
2 conflict broke out in April, you're not able to testify
3 about that, at Kaonik?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Now, you spoke of the fact that when the
6 civilian prisoners were brought to the camp, you took
7 down their details on a sheet of paper.
8 A. There was a notebook.
9 Q. And you removed from them knives and things
10 of that nature which they may have had on their
11 possession?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, this list of prisoners was given to the
14 warden, wasn't it?
15 A. At that time, the list was submitted to
16 Blazenka, who kept the record of all the imprisoned,
17 detained, and the like.
18 Q. Who was Blazenka?
19 A. Yes. She was a military policeman too, like
20 the rest of us.
21 Q. Where was she located?
22 A. She was located in the same room, in the same
23 office where I was.
24 Q. She was in charge of secretarial duties,
25 wasn't she?
1 A. Yes. For the records, yes.
2 Q. And she used to work as Mr. Aleksovski's
3 secretary?
4 A. After a while, when we came under the
5 Justice, yes, but while we were with the military
6 police, worked with the military police.
7 Q. Now, when these civilian prisoners had their
8 names taken and their knives and so forth removed from
9 them, you then placed them either in the cells or in
10 the hangar, depending on the available space?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Those cells were locked from the outside, and
13 so was the hangar, wasn't it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. If prisoners wanted to go to the toilet or,
16 for some other reason, leave either the hangar or the
17 cells, they had to draw the attention of the guards to
18 that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And a guard would have been posted outside of
21 the hangar and a guard would have been posted in the
22 cellblock building as well to attend to the prisoners
23 if they needed anything during the course of the night?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The other purpose for having the guard there
1 was to prevent the prisoners from leaving?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What were these people charged with? What
4 was their crime?
5 A. You mean those --
6 Q. The civilian prisoners who were brought there
7 in February and April of 1993, what crime had they
8 committed?
9 A. Why, there were charges filed against some of
10 those who were with us, for murder, for -- by the
11 court, and there were disciplinary -- there were
12 disciplinary -- those with disciplinary transgressions
13 who were serving a couple of days only.
14 Q. I'm not asking you about them. I am talking
15 about the civilian prisoners, the people that were
16 rounded up by the HVO police. They were there because
17 they were Muslim, weren't they?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. They hadn't committed any crime, that you
20 knew of anyway?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Yes, they had committed a crime, or, no, they
23 hadn't committed a crime?
24 A. No, they did not commit a crime.
25 Q. They were there awaiting their exchange,
1 weren't they, to move into other areas such as Zenica?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. They weren't there for their own protection,
4 though, were they? They were there because they were
5 Muslims and they had been rounded up by the HVO police.
6 A. Primarily, they came for protection, they
7 were there for protection, and the second reason is
8 because the Muslims attacked us from all sides, and so
9 you have such people right there in the town of
10 Busovaca or surrounding villages, so we put them in
11 this hangar for those reasons, because there was fire
12 on all sides.
13 Q. Now, when you're in Zenica prison, prior to
14 coming to Kaonik, did you also put Serb people in
15 Zenica for their own protection?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Those Serb people that you put in Zenica
18 prison, were they ultimately exchanged as well, like
19 the Muslims were?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, the pallets that people slept on, they
22 were pallets, they were packing crates, weren't they,
23 things you use for moving heavy, I take it, ammunition
24 around the facility?
25 A. What were those pallets used for? I wouldn't
1 know. I know they were made of wood.
2 Q. They're the sort of things that forklift
3 trucks come along and put the prongs of the forklift
4 truck under, don't they, and lift things up?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. There was a plentiful supply of these around
7 Kaonik because it used to be an ammunition supply
8 facility?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. These pallets were put into the cells as well
11 as into the hangar? They had pallets in the cells as
12 well, did they not?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Well, describe the bedding that was made
15 available in the cells.
16 A. In the cells, they slept on the pallets --
17 no, sorry, not on the pallets, they had made cots or,
18 rather, half of the cell was divided, and there were
19 some boards above the floor some six -- sixty
20 centimetres, and then there were boards and then there
21 were straw -- I mean, what we call straw beds, but
22 actually they were sponges, a sponge or some kind of
23 matter. So whatever there was would be put on this
24 board or a plank and then one blanket or perhaps two,
25 it depended, and pallets were up there in the military
1 hangar.
2 Q. These beds in the cells, for example, how
3 many people were they designed to accommodate?
4 A. Well, I said it. Normally five to six
5 individuals, under normal circumstances.
6 Q. So if you put 10 to 15 people in there,
7 they'd be extensively overcrowded, at least 100 per
8 cent overcrowded?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. People in those cells had no choice about
11 whether or not they were located there, did they? That
12 was a decision that either you or some other guard
13 would make.
14 A. Well, you know, they still preferred to be
15 there because it was warmer than up in the hangar, and
16 that was the only choice, this or the hangar. As I've
17 said, they liked better to stay here, even if they
18 could only stand or sit down, because it was warmer,
19 because there was a room, the cells were partitioned,
20 and there were people there. It was January, snowing,
21 it was very cold, so they preferred to be here than up
22 there.
23 Q. It wasn't a case of them saying, "Well, now,
24 take me around the facility, and I'll pick the best
25 cell for me to stay in," you just decided, didn't you?
1 You said, "You go here" and "You go there." It wasn't
2 up to the prisoners to decide where they were going to
3 be located?
4 A. Well, I don't think that there is a case ever
5 where the prisoner decides where they will be kept and
6 what they will do. It's not up to prisoners.
7 Q. So the preference about being warmer and so
8 forth is not something that they had much influence
9 over in terms of where they could choose to be?
10 A. I don't understand.
11 Q. Now, during the first intake of civilian
12 detainees in January, how many people in all came to
13 Kaonik?
14 A. I wouldn't know the exact number, but I
15 should say, I don't know, somewhere up to 200 people,
16 150 or 200, I wouldn't know exactly.
17 Q. You spoke of the incident where the two
18 persons were charged as a result of Muslim detainees
19 being killed on the frontline. Do you remember
20 mentioning that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What was the outcome of that case? What
23 happened at the end of the day to those people?
24 A. You mean those who were charged with this? I
25 don't know. What happened to them in the end, I don't
1 know.
2 Q. Now, when people were taken out for
3 trench-digging, it would be either you or
4 Mr. Aleksovski who would be responsible for determining
5 who would go?
6 A. He was not in charge of that, Mr. Aleksovski,
7 but sometimes we were not there, there were only people
8 here, for instance, the shift had -- who weren't there
9 and we were away. Then he had a list, he had the
10 sequence how people came, so apart from those who were
11 sick, and he would simply read five, ten men, how many
12 were needed, and thus they would go.
13 Q. He also had the authority, did he not, to
14 decide who wouldn't go, so that if there was someone
15 who was sick, he, Mr. Aleksovski, would say, "Well, you
16 don't need to go trench-digging"? He did that, didn't
17 he?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, did you decide from time to time which
20 of the civilian detainees would be selected to go
21 trench-digging, you personally decide that?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Why didn't you do that?
24 A. Why? There was a list, I told you, and you
25 just followed -- went down the list, except when
1 somebody said that he was sick, "Can you leave me
2 behind? I'm really not feeling well. Can I go
3 tomorrow?" Well, then you just skip him and take the
4 next one. That, I mean.
5 Q. You knew he took people's names off that
6 list, didn't you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you knew they were going to be taken out
9 for trench-digging?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you knew that it was wrong to use
12 civilian detainees for the purposes of digging trenches
13 on the frontline?
14 A. No, I did not know. It was a labour
15 obligation. There were also Croats, I mean, our
16 people, who also dug there on that same frontline.
17 That was a labour obligation.
18 Q. So it never occurred to you that sending
19 these civilian prisoners out to the frontline in very
20 dangerous conditions to dig trenches might offend, for
21 example, the Geneva Conventions?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So as far as you're concerned, it was a
24 perfectly acceptable way to behave?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did anyone ever give you a copy of the Geneva
2 Conventions and tell you that you should study it and
3 become familiar with its provisions?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you ever take it upon yourself to
6 acquaint yourself with the provisions of the Geneva
7 Conventions?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you ever receive any training at any
10 time, either when you were in the Zenica prison or in
11 the Kaonik prison, on the provisions of the Geneva
12 Conventions?
13 A. Well, I don't remember.
14 Q. Again, you spoke of the fact that civilians
15 were not refused medical care when they wanted it. But
16 that's only as far as you know. I mean, if there were
17 prisoners who asked for medical attention and you
18 weren't on shift, you wouldn't know about that and
19 couldn't comment on it, could you?
20 A. I would because there was emergency cases who
21 would be taken after my working hours; but otherwise,
22 everything took place in the morning hours, I told you,
23 from seven o'clock, because in the morning when I had
24 to put down for the examination, so it was in the
25 morning, and only exceptionally, if there were some
1 afternoon cases, then there was usually a car on duty
2 there. If the car was not there, then they would ask a
3 doctor to come to the prison in person.
4 Q. I'm saying that if you weren't on duty and a
5 guard decided not to record the fact or do anything
6 about the fact that a prisoner had sought medical
7 attention, then you couldn't possibly know that, could
8 you? You can't know about things when you're not
9 there.
10 A. Well, naturally, if it was not in the book,
11 then what? Or unless he told me personally.
12 Q. Was there a loudspeaker system in the camp?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Were you known by any nicknames or names
15 other than the name that you've given in court, Anto
16 Jerkovic? Do you have a nickname?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What nickname are you known by?
19 A. Pancho.
20 Q. Did you know a person called Zarko Petrovic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How do you know him?
23 A. I know him from Busovaca.
24 Q. Did you know him during the time --
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me, Mr. Niemann.
1 Mr. Mikulicic?
2 MR. MIKULICIC: With all due respect to my
3 learned friend, I think these questions go beyond the
4 examination-in-chief, and we did not touch upon a
5 person called Zarko Petrovic in our
6 examination-in-chief. So in view of your decision
7 during the former session, so that the
8 cross-examination could not go beyond the framework,
9 beyond the boundaries of examination-in-chief, we
10 therefore object to this line of questioning.
11 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, if I may address
12 that? My understanding of Your Honours' rulings --
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me. We have not
14 heard the end of the interpretation yet. I believe
15 there is something that I missed.
16 Yes, Mr. Niemann? Yes, please? Sorry.
17 MR. NIEMANN: Your Honours, my understanding
18 of Your Honours' ruling related to the ambit of the
19 indictment. It's always been the case, as I understood
20 it, that cross-examination is at large. Otherwise, the
21 whole exercise would be pointless. If it couldn't be
22 at large, for example -- let me suggest to Your Honours
23 an example.
24 If a witness came along and told a whole
25 series of lies, in order to demonstrate those lies, it
1 may be necessary to embark on other areas which weren't
2 covered in examination-in-chief in order to demonstrate
3 that the witness is lying to the court. I'm not
4 suggesting that's the case with this witness, but I'm
5 saying that is the reason, the logic, behind the fact
6 that cross-examination cannot be limited to the
7 evidence in chief because of that and many other
8 reasons. I can think of numerous examples.
9 For example, a witness could be called, and
10 counsel could specifically limit the witness to that
11 very limited point of evidence that he wished to
12 present to the court. But the witness could, perhaps,
13 discuss another area of great relevance, but not
14 something that counsel wanted to bring out of that
15 witness.
16 It would be absurd to say, "Well, you can't
17 go beyond the scope of examination-in-chief in
18 cross-examination," so as to prevent the court hearing
19 the particular evidence that this witness was able to
20 attest to. It also could impinge upon questions by
21 Your Honours because, I mean, it would hardly be fair
22 to say to the Prosecutor, "Well, you can't
23 cross-examine about particular areas which are outside
24 the scope of evidence in chief." Then if Your Honours
25 wish to ask a question about something outside the
1 evidence in chief, Your Honours could do it, but the
2 Prosecution couldn't.
3 So, Your Honours, it's generally regarded in
4 those jurisdictions where cross-examination takes
5 place. In fact, I know of no example of a jurisdiction
6 where cross-examination occurs that it's limited
7 strictly to evidence in chief. I know of no example of
8 that. In fact, it's quite the contrary. In all of
9 those jurisdictions where cross-examination is a common
10 feature of the trial, cross-examination is generally
11 regarded as being at regard.
12 That doesn't mean to say that one can embark
13 upon a cross-examination of something totally
14 irrelevant. The admissibility of the cross-examination
15 is always constrained by the relevance of the
16 cross-examination, but it's never, as far as my
17 experience is concerned, ever restricted to merely the
18 evidence in chief, as is led by counsel who, for
19 tactical reasons, may specifically wish to restrict the
20 evidence in chief.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, I think it is
22 now time for a break. We shall decide on all this that
23 you have just said.
24 JUDGE VOHRAH: Can you, Mr. Niemann,
25 elaborate on the relevance of your questioning?
1 MR. NIEMANN: Yes, Your Honours. I have a
2 series of questions about persons who witnesses for the
3 Prosecution have attested were at the camp. And I'm
4 just exploring -- when I say "at the time camp," I'm
5 talking of people who either were guards or HVO, that
6 may be unclear, but they were certainly at the camp.
7 I'm just asking the witness whether he knows of those
8 people and in what capacity they performed.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: All right. So we shall now
10 take a 15-minute break.
11 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
13 (The accused entered court)
14 JUDGE RODRIGUES: We shall resume now. The
15 Chamber reminds you of what we have already ruled under
16 the circumstances, that the way to Kaonik should not be
17 too long and repetitive. We have underlined that we
18 have Mr. Aleksovski here on trial and not anybody
19 else. We have the indictment, and we have already said
20 that we need to have an integral, systematic picture if
21 we are to understand the effects which are included in
22 the indictment in the charges against Mr. Aleksovski.
23 Therefore, on the basis of 96(B) and (C) and
24 89(D), we accept that Mr. Niemann -- that the questions
25 that Mr. Niemann was asking are admissible because they
1 are within the boundary in the sense of these two
2 provisions of our rules. These are, therefore,
3 questions which do concern Mr. Aleksovski and which the
4 Chamber needs to know if it is to have an integral and
5 systematic picture. And this way we are not going
6 beyond the framework of the examination-in-chief.
7 Therefore, the Chamber decides that these questions are
8 admissible.
9 Mr. Niemann, you may continue.
10 My colleague tells me that there is an error
11 in the transcript. We have spoken of the 85(D) and
12 89(B). So Mr. Mikulicic, you may also ask questions on
13 this matter. But, Mr. Niemann, you may continue.
14 MR. NIEMANN: If Your Honours please.
15 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, I was just asking you before
16 the adjournment about a person by the name Zarko
17 Petrovic. Did you know him? I think you said that you
18 had heard of him. Did you know of him in connection
19 with the Kaonik facility?
20 A. I met him down there.
21 Q. What was his rank?
22 A. I don't know what his rank was, but I heard
23 that he worked in the police.
24 Q. Do you know what his role was in the camp?
25 A. No.
1 Q. What about a person by the name Miro Maric;
2 have you heard of that person?
3 A. Miro Maric, yes, there was a Miro Maric that
4 worked with us.
5 Q. Do you know what his rank was?
6 A. He had no rank.
7 Q. When you say, "he worked with us," he was a
8 guard like yourself in the camp, in the facility of
9 Kaonik, the prison?
10 A. A military policeman, yes.
11 Q. Finally, have you heard of a person called
12 Marko Krilic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you know of him because of his
15 involvement with Kaonik?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. He was the deputy director of the Kaonik
18 facility, wasn't he?
19 A. Marko Krilic?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Well, can you tell me what function he
23 performed?
24 A. A military policeman.
25 Q. Do you know what rank he had?
1 A. No, he had no rank.
2 Q. And Marko Krilic was similar to yourself, a
3 guard in the Kaonik facility?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, you mentioned when we were discussing
6 the lady Blazenka that she became Mr. Aleksovski's
7 secretary when you all came under the jurisdiction of
8 the Ministry of Justice. That was when Mr. Aleksovski
9 arrived, was it?
10 A. When it fell under the jurisdiction, yes,
11 until somebody else arrived. And then Blazenka was in
12 charge of the books and things like that.
13 Q. I see. So she became Mr. Aleksovski's
14 secretary when you and her and others came under the
15 jurisdiction of the Ministry of Justice?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. NIEMANN: No further questions, Your
18 Honour.
19 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic?
20 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I
21 just have a few questions in order to clarify certain
22 answers.
23 Re-examined by Mr. Mikulicic
24 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, is the person who is named
25 Zarko Petrovic which was mentioned by my distinguished
1 colleague, the Prosecutor, was he employed as a guard
2 at Kaonik?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was Zarko Petrovic at Kaonik in any other
5 capacity?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Mr. Jerkovic, we heard here also about the
8 release of civilians who were taken to Kaonik in two
9 instances in February and April. Mr. Jerkovic, do you
10 remember whether at times they were released from
11 Kaonik, somebody from the international organisations
12 was present like the Red Cross and similar
13 organisations?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Tell us, Mr. Jerkovic, whether these persons,
16 when they were released from Kaonik, when they were
17 asked in front of these international representatives,
18 where did they want to go?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Tell us, Mr. Jerkovic, again, do you know
21 whether some of the persons who were released, to a
22 greater or a lesser extent, were going back to their
23 homes, Busovaca and the surrounding villages?
24 A. I don't know exactly. I know that most of
25 them, the majority, I think that most of them went to
1 Zenica. I don't know exactly.
2 MR. MIKULICIC: There are no further
3 questions for the Defence, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: I have only one
5 question.
6 Do you know the name of the commander of the
7 military unit used to take the prisoners to trench
8 digging?
9 A. No.
10 JUDGE NIETO NAVIA: No further questions.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Jerkovic, I should also
12 like to ask you a few questions.
13 If I understood you properly, you said that
14 someone asked that a number of persons be taken to dig
15 trenches; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Who was it who asked for a
18 number of these persons?
19 A. Well, they would come from the frontline.
20 They would go to the commander and they would say how
21 many men they needed and we would give them.
22 JUDGE RODRIGUES: But did you know which was
23 their rank or the organisation or the person or
24 anything?
25 A. Well, they would come -- they would come by
1 car, and there would be a couple of them from the HVO
2 army, and they would take five or ten men, as many as
3 they needed for digging, and they would go.
4 JUDGE RODRIGUES: So those were HVO soldiers?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE RODRIGUES: And another question: You
7 also said that there was a list of persons who dug
8 trenches. Who compiled those lists?
9 A. There was a list of all people who came here,
10 and we went down that list, except that we excluded
11 people of advanced age and those who were sick or
12 something.
13 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Yes, but who compiled the
14 list? Do you know who made the list? Was it you who
15 made that list?
16 A. Nobody made those lists. I was there, and if
17 they told me they needed five men or ten men, so I
18 would read them out if I was there or the shift leader
19 or whoever there was would read them out, and then give
20 as many as were needed.
21 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Finally, let me go back.
22 Did you get that list? But did you know who made those
23 lists, who compiled those lists? Who decided what
24 names would be put on the list?
25 A. Well, when people came, when they came, I
1 would take down their names. I would search them to
2 take off -- to remove the list of things. That list
3 was with me on the desk, on Blazenka's desk. And when
4 they would come, we would take out this list and say,
5 "Well, we've come down to here," and you call them
6 out. And if this one was sick or something, then you
7 skip him and take the next one. And if they come the
8 next day, then we would do the same thing. And we
9 would reach the number, I don't know, 10 or 15, and
10 then we would proceed down the list.
11 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Excuse me for insisting on
12 this matter, but those were HVO soldiers? Were they
13 guards or you or Mr. Aleksovski who made the list?
14 A. I'm saying it again. I would take this list
15 and take them -- those men, I would make a list of ten
16 men, for instance. A person would make a list of ten
17 men, and we would -- some of those people and send them
18 to work. And the next day, it would be the shift
19 leader, whoever happened to be there.
20 JUDGE RODRIGUES: We already know that you
21 have answered a question from the Prosecution regarding
22 your education, your knowledge, your familiarity with
23 the Geneva Conventions. But have you received any
24 instruction? Have you been instructed? Have you gone
25 through any training for a guard?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Where did you receive the
3 training?
4 A. In Sarajevo.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: It was under the Ministry
6 of Justice or outside it?
7 A. Yes, yes, it was under the Ministry of
8 Justice.
9 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Right. We have no further
10 questions, Mr. Jerkovic, to ask you. Thank you for
11 coming here and we wish you a pleasant return home.
12 Thank you very much.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
14 (The witness withdrew)
15 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Mikulicic?
16 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour, the Defence
17 would like to call there next witness. It is Mr. Darko
18 Kristo. But since it is already 1.00 p.m., the Defence
19 will probably not be able to finish the questioning
20 until the end of the working hours of the Court, so we
21 will continue tomorrow, or perhaps it would be better
22 not to start even today and continue tomorrow with the
23 questioning of this witness. It's up to you to
24 decide.
25 JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Niemann, what do you
1 think?
2 MR. NIEMANN: It's a matter for Your
3 Honours. Our position on this is whatever is most
4 convenient to the Court.
5 JUDGE RODRIGUES: I believe it is still very
6 important not to make breaks, not to make unnecessary
7 interruptions. Perhaps it would be better to begin
8 tomorrow and then make the best use of the time
9 tomorrow, so that we shall resume tomorrow with your
10 next witness.
11 So until tomorrow at 9.00.
12 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at
13 12.49 p.m. to be reconvened on Tuesday,
14 the 30th day of June, 1998 at 9.00 a.m.
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