Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 987

1 Thursday, 10 July 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon. Case Number IT-02-60-T, The

8 Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Good afternoon, Witness.

10 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.

11 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to proceed?

12 THE WITNESS: I'm ready.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. Karnavas.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you Your Honour. Good afternoon, Your

15 Honours.

16 WITNESS: PIETER BOERING [Resumed]

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas: [Continued]

19 Q. Major, we left off yesterday where I asked you to look at two

20 pieces of documents. I take it you thought about those documents

21 overnight.

22 A. I did, sir.

23 Q. And before I ask you whether you've changed your mind or not, I

24 would like you to look at a clip of a video that was taken during your

25 first meeting with General Mladic. And while that is being queued up, the

Page 988

1 video is already in. For the record, it's, I believe, Prosecution 21.

2 And along with that, Your Honour, Mr. President, there was a transcript as

3 Prosecution evidence 21/A. I did make excerpts, copies of that transcript

4 for the convenience of everyone. And so I have them available, if the

5 usher would like to distribute them while...

6 And the videoclip, for everyone's convenience, will start on page

7 of the transcript, the middle of the page of page 19, and at the top

8 right-hand corner, it has L0092415 as the number.

9 THE INTERPRETER: May copies be provided for the booths, please.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: And I should add we're being assisted by the Office

11 of the Prosecution, and we're very delighted to have Ms. Janet Stewart

12 assisting us.

13 [Videotape played]

14 MR. KARNAVAS:

15 Q. Major, did you have opportunity to review this video before?

16 A. I've seen this video once before.

17 Q. So you have seen the video before?

18 A. I've seen it without the subtitles.

19 Q. Okay. Were you able to understand it?

20 A. Yes, I understood it fully.

21 Q. Okay. And as I recall, I saw you in the video. You sort of stand

22 up, you're taller than anybody else over there.

23 A. Yes, I was there.

24 Q. And I take it you had an opportunity to -- you were close enough

25 to Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans and you were able to hear what he was

Page 989

1 saying at the time.

2 A. I was not present during the entire meeting. I missed the

3 beginning, let's say the first five minutes.

4 Q. Well, okay. But the clip that I showed showed you in the clip.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And the clip that I showed had the relevant information that we

7 were discussing yesterday. Right?

8 A. I was present there.

9 Q. Okay. And you were able to hear and understand -- you were able

10 to hear Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans. Right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you were able to understand his English as he was speaking to

13 General Mladic. Right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I take it you don't understand B/C/S or Serbo-Croatian, whatever

16 the language was at the time?

17 A. No, I understand that language very poorly.

18 Q. Okay. But you understood -- you understood Lieutenant-Colonel

19 Karremans?

20 A. Absolutely.

21 Q. Now, who is General Nikolai? He mentioned a General Nikolai in

22 there.

23 A. He was in Sarajevo. Let's say he was in charge of Sarajevo at

24 that time. And Karremans was regularly in touch with him. And he was

25 above the Tuzla line.

Page 990

1 Q. Okay. And now, from the clip, it says that Lieutenant-Colonel

2 Karremans notes that he had spoken with General Nikolai a couple of hours

3 earlier. Do you recall hearing that part?

4 A. Yes, I remember.

5 Q. Now, yesterday I showed you those documents. And we're not clear

6 whether they were received or not, but at least they note that they were

7 faxed sometime around 3.40 in the afternoon that day. Somewhere around

8 that period.

9 A. Mm-hmm.

10 Q. Is that a yes?

11 A. The time of 1540 as written on the documents, 3.40, was on

12 the 12th of July. That's one day later, if you look at the header. But

13 if you mean that there has been contact by telephone between Nikolai and

14 Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans, then, well, I presume that was the case.

15 Q. Okay. And you have no -- so would you like to recharacterise

16 your testimony? Yesterday, you indicated, you were emphatic, you were

17 certain, because of your memory, that it was the VRS that had insisted on

18 the meeting. Now you see the video with Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans.

19 You've also seen some documentation, one of which was generated by

20 Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans, all indicating that it was

21 Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans at the request of the folks in Sarajevo and

22 the Bosnian government that he initiate contact with the VRS.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

24 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, I think that's a misstatement of the

25 facts, especially since he takes all these documents and other information

Page 991

1 which he says has been shown to the witness together. So it would be

2 fair, especially when he talks about the document, to show it again to the

3 witness because then he would realise that what he said about fax numbers

4 and times, there appear several fax lines on that document, and only one

5 is 3.40. So I would suggest that Mr. Karnavas be more precise.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Since everybody has got that footage, you know,

7 you may point to particular line or paragraph to this witness.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. But if I may, before I

9 get to that point.

10 Q. After leaving here yesterday, you took some documents with you to

11 review. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes, I read them.

13 Q. Okay. Did you by any chance take the documents referring to the

14 topic that we're discussing here today?

15 A. I have those documents with me now.

16 Q. Okay. But my question is did you have them last night with you?

17 A. Yes, I took them away. I read them, and I brought them here

18 again.

19 Q. Okay. So you had an opportunity to read them overnight before

20 coming here today.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you watched the video again.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is your testimony today that Karremans is incorrect in stating in

25 the video that he was asked by General Nikolai and the government, meaning

Page 992

1 the BiH government, to make contact with the VRS with respect to the

2 people?

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

4 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps if Mr. Karnavas could point to the part in

5 the video where it says what he just stated, that General Nikolai

6 requested Mr. Karremans to initiate a meeting.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

8 Q. If you would look at the transcript that was given to you, sir,

9 and look at page -- at the bottom it says "page 19 of 78." In bold

10 letters on the left side, it says "General Mladic." Right?

11 A. Yes, sir.

12 Q. And it says in bold: "What do you want? You asked for a

13 meeting. Speak up." Now, do you understand what he means by "You asked

14 for a meeting"?

15 A. Yes, I understand that.

16 Q. Okay. What do you understand it to mean?

17 A. It says here that Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans asked for a

18 meeting.

19 Q. Okay. Not that General Mladic asked for the meeting. Right?

20 You can't -- you don't get that impression from what General Mladic is

21 saying?

22 A. That's not what it says.

23 Q. Okay. All right. So from that, can you conclude that at least

24 from what we have here today it would appear that it was

25 Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans who requested the meeting, and not General

Page 993

1 Mladic requesting the meeting?

2 A. As far as I remember, the meeting was -- probably the subject of

3 the meeting was raised a number of times, the fact that it was to be held.

4 And it is quite possible that there has been a crossing by a request from

5 us with a request from General Mladic, or someone, because it was not

6 clear at the beginning of the meeting that General Mladic would be present

7 there. So I assume that possibly there was a need on both sides for

8 having a meeting. And that explains my memory.

9 Q. All right. Now, was any part of my question with respect to your

10 memory or was it with respect to what's on the paper here today and what's

11 on the video?

12 A. I'm here as a witness.

13 Q. And I'm asking you from what you heard today and what's on the

14 paper, is it not a fact that the only inevitable conclusion that you can

15 draw, irrespective of your memory, is that Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans

16 requested the meeting with the VRS and not the other way around?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

18 MR. WAESPI: I think the witness clearly answered the question in

19 reference to his memory. And he is sticking to that. And if the counsel

20 likes his answer not, the answer was given.

21 JUDGE LIU: I think, too, Mr. Karnavas, I fail to see how

22 important in your question that who is requesting a meeting. Is that

23 relevant?

24 MR. KARNAVAS: It will become relevant throughout the trial, Your

25 Honour. At some point it will become relevant. And if the Court wishes

Page 994

1 to take judicial notice that the meeting was requested by the DutchBat

2 with the VRS, I'll move on. If not, if we go -- as I go through this

3 transcript, it will become very clear that it was the DutchBat that asked

4 for the meeting irrespective of this gentleman's memory. And I intend to

5 impeach him at this point unless he starts answering the questions

6 correctly.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

8 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no objection if

9 these documents come in as documents and they speak for themselves. The

10 witness was present there. And I think he testified yesterday that he was

11 told by the Serb interpreter that the meeting was requested. And today he

12 opened the possibility that there were requests from two sides. That's

13 what he can state. The document is a different matter, and again it can

14 come in.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think we have spent much time

16 on that issue, and the positions of the two sides is quite clear to us.

17 And at the same time, the witness has answered that question already. So

18 I don't think there's a need to prolong the cross-examination on this

19 issue.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may, Your Honour, just so I understand, is

21 this a request to move on, or are you giving a few more questions to ask

22 on this topic? I don't mean to --

23 JUDGE LIU: I hope you could move on. I understand your position.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. All right. Very well, Your Honour.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember at any rate that the two

Page 995

1 next meetings happened by order of General Mladic and that clear

2 scheduling was dictated by him.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: I totally agree with you, sir. I couldn't agree

4 with you more on that.

5 Q. But from reading this transcript and watching the video, it's

6 very clear, at least in my opinion, and you can read it at your leisure,

7 that General Nikolai spoke with Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans and

8 requested a meeting to deal with the population that had gathered at

9 Potocari.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

11 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I think that's a statement by counsel.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, it was an invited response. There

13 was no question posed to the witness. The witness decided to make a

14 response, and invited a response on my part.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, there's no need for you to argue

16 with the witness. You are a professional.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

18 Q. Major, with the -- I take there was enough food there by the

19 people that had gathered at Potocari that would sustain them for several

20 days because they had brought with them provisions. Isn't that correct?

21 A. That is not correct.

22 Q. Are you certain?

23 A. I'm certain.

24 Q. How can you be so certain?

25 A. Because an inventory had been made by a colleague of mine, and a

Page 996

1 plan was made. And I was present when the comment was given to that plan

2 about the quantity of food and what the outlook was, a kind of staff

3 meeting if you like.

4 Q. What was the outlook? How much food was available for everyone?

5 A. Who is "everyone"?

6 Q. Well, the question I posed was that the folks that had gathered

7 to Potocari, that is, the folks from Srebrenica, had brought enough food

8 for themselves to sustain themselves for several days. So now they're at

9 Potocari, so would that statement be correct?

10 A. No, that statement is not correct. At most, some water they had.

11 But in terms of food, hardly anything.

12 Q. Okay. So if that was the testimony of another witness,

13 Mr. Mandzic, that would be totally incorrect because that was his

14 assessment under oath. He had indicated that -- when I posed a question

15 to him, that there was a humanitarian crisis and a lack of food, he said,

16 oh, no, they had made provisions for several days for themselves. So in

17 your opinion, that's an incorrect statement made by the Prosecution's

18 witness, Mr. Mandzic?

19 A. That's not what I have seen.

20 Q. In fact, isn't it a fact that DutchBat had enough food for

21 themselves and perhaps to assist the rest of the population for up to 24,

22 maybe 48 hours, and no more after that? Or would you say less than that?

23 A. I think that was the deadline, 48 hours.

24 Q. Okay. Before coming here today, were you made aware of the heavy

25 battle that took place between the 28th division as they had left in the

Page 997

1 column with the VRS, and specifically with the Zvornik Brigade? Were you

2 made aware of that?

3 A. There were rumours that there was fighting, but no confirmation.

4 We had no contact with military leaders of the VRS.

5 Q. But since then, I'm saying after you left, because as I

6 understand it, you went to Tuzla, you were held there for a couple of

7 hours by the Muslim army because they didn't trust you, not you in person

8 but because you were a DutchBat, part of the UN that had failed to protect

9 the enclave. And then it's my understanding you left. But since that

10 period, were you ever made aware by the Prosecution or other official

11 documents as to the heavy battle that went on between the VRS and the

12 28th Division as they were trying to get to Tuzla?

13 A. I have not seen official documents, but I read several books about

14 it.

15 Q. Okay. Had you been made aware of the official documents, of what

16 exactly had transpired, the losses that were on the VRS, the Zvornik

17 Brigade and others that were there, and the losses that were -- that had

18 taken place by the 28th Division, might that have been of some assistance

19 to you throughout my questioning as far as the strength, the numerical

20 strength and the military capabilities of the 28th Division? Might that

21 have been of some assistance in your assessment?

22 A. I tried to avoid that. And I cannot give an unambiguous answer to

23 this because memory has a special way of functioning.

24 Q. This is my last question. I just want to make sure you that

25 understood my question. Probably it was my fault. It was inarticulately

Page 998

1 phrased. There were several questions yesterday posed to you about the

2 28th Division. And many of those questions were related to their

3 numerical strength and military capability. And you were able to provide

4 some answers, given your observations on the ground six months in that

5 terrain. What I'm asking you today is had you been aware of the

6 information that's available regarding what had happened with the Zvornik

7 Brigade and the fighting, might that have been of some assistance in you

8 evaluating your assessment as to the numerical and military capabilities

9 of the 28th Division, vis-a-vis the VRS --

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

11 MR. WAESPI: A couple of remarks. Yesterday the witness said

12 repeatedly that he thought the strength of the armed forces inside the

13 enclave was a thousand people. Now, today, he has asked about -- sort of

14 giving an assessment, and he said that he was out of the area by that

15 time. He only heard rumours. He read books about it. And it's very

16 difficult for him to comment on battles which are not made clear when

17 they happened, in what area they happened. I don't think that it would

18 assist the Trial Chamber if this witness, who was not in the area at that

19 time, was invited to speculate.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may briefly respond, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Briefly respond. Under normal circumstances, I

23 might agree with the Prosecution. However, in this case, there is ample

24 material within the Prosecution's Office that was made available to us

25 regarding battles that took place between the 28th Division and the VRS,

Page 999

1 and specifically, the Zvornik Brigade, as they were leaving the area. It

2 is obviously critical to us because the Bratunac Brigade was asked to

3 assist on I believe it was the night of the 15th. So some men did go

4 from the Bratunac Brigade to assist on a battle where heavy losses were

5 sustained by the Zvornik Brigade. And in fact, the evidence will show

6 that the people of Zvornik were quite concerned that Zvornik itself would

7 be taken over by the 28th. What I was asking the gentleman was: Was if

8 he had that information available to him would that assist him in his

9 evaluation, in his assessment of the strength of the 28th because

10 obviously that's information that wasn't known to him. He could say yes,

11 or he could say no. So that's all -- because obviously he has a certain

12 amount of information. So that was the purpose of asking the question.

13 And I'm willing to live with whatever the answer is, and I'll end at that,

14 Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe the witness has already answered the

16 question. He came here to tell us what he saw and what he did during

17 that period. He himself did not witness the various fighting. He just

18 got this information from some books as well as some rumours. After all,

19 it's hearsay evidence. I don't know how far you could go, you know, in

20 this direction.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: My only question, what I was leading at, Your

22 Honour, is had the Prosecution provided this information to him because

23 in essence, they have put him on sort of as an expert, even though he's

24 not titled as an expert.

25 JUDGE LIU: Ask this question straight to the witness, whether

Page 1000

1 the Prosecution provided such kind of documents or evidence to the

2 witness.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: I know the answer is going to be no, Your Honour.

4 So very well.

5 Q. So in your opinion, you cannot give -- if you had all that

6 information available that is in possession of the Prosecution, is it

7 your opinion today that that would not assist you in any way in forming

8 an opinion with respect to the strength of the 28th Division?

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, the gentleman is thinking about the

10 answer.

11 JUDGE LIU: Let me hear the answer from this witness.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no idea of what is in the

13 Prosecution's possession.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you. And I have no further questions. I

15 want to thank you very much, Major.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any cross-examination from Defence team

17 of Mr. Jokic? Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

18 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I do have to say that my

19 esteemed colleague here has left no stone unturned with this witness, but

20 I may have five minutes worth of questioning. But certainly before the

21 break, I'll be finished.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

23 MS. SINATRA: Thank you.

24 Cross-examined by Ms. Sinatra:

25 Q. Good afternoon, Major Boering. My name is Cynthia Sinatra, and I

Page 1001

1 represent Dragan Jokic. First of all, I would like to thank you for your

2 bravery on the front there in Srebrenica because you certainly stayed and

3 protected the refugees against all odds, I believe, and only left at the

4 last moment.

5 You did leave July 13th with the first refugee bus out of

6 Srebrenica. Is that correct?

7 A. It was the 12th or the 13th. It was after the third meeting,

8 that day. And what I recall is that it was the 12th.

9 Q. Okay. I believe your prior testimony is it was the 13th, but if

10 that's --

11 A. It was the day after the third meeting. It was the day of the

12 third meeting.

13 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

15 MR. WAESPI: We can certainly go and check what he says, but I

16 would be extremely surprised if he had said he had left on the 13th.

17 MS. SINATRA: Well, the record will reflect whether he left on

18 the 12th or 13th, and I'll be willing to continue.

19 Q. In your statement on February 10th, 1998, you confirm that each

20 time you had a special mission, you wrote that your battalion commander

21 was briefed, and that you wrote a report that was sent to UNPF sector

22 North-East in Tuzla. You reviewed these reports before testifying today,

23 didn't you?

24 A. We certainly didn't report very often to Tuzla.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

Page 1002

1 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President, it would be quicker and easier

2 for the witness if he was shown that portion of the witness statement

3 since you're, in fact, quoting it.

4 JUDGE LIU: It depends, you know, how much content that Defence

5 counsel would like to use. If you just ask a question on that statement,

6 I don't think, you know, we have to put statement before the witness. If

7 the Defence counsel will extensively use that document, the best way is

8 to provide a copy to the witness.

9 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I would like to ask if there is an

10 exhibit list that was to be provided by the Blagojevic team of the

11 exhibits they used because I believe that statement was on the exhibit

12 list used by the Blagojevic team, and then I could just refer to that

13 document.

14 JUDGE LIU: I'm surprised to hear that you didn't get that list.

15 MS. SINATRA: No, Your Honour, I did not receive that list.

16 JUDGE LIU: I'm sorry about that.

17 MS. SINATRA: Thank you very much. So the list does not include

18 the statement that he made in February 1998. Is that what I recognise

19 here? Okay.

20 Q. Mr. Boering -- Major Boering, do you have a copy of your

21 statement in front of you?

22 A. I have various statements. Which one are you referring to?

23 Q. The one from February 10th, 1998.

24 A. Just a moment. Yes, I've found it. Number 00583503.

25 Q. That's correct. The third paragraph, you say the battalion

Page 1003

1 commander was always briefed after each mission, and I would prepare a

2 report to this effect.

3 A. Mm-hmm.

4 Q. Do you have those reports that you prepared during that time, July

5 8 through July 12th in Srebrenica?

6 A. We didn't draw up any reports in that period, not on paper. I

7 didn't. It was all done orally.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you very much.

9 A. The paperwork was done by Lieutenant-Colonel Karremans.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 I just want to confirm, you did state that the VRS army did seize

12 some DutchBat equipment, APCs, uniforms, et cetera, during the initial

13 takeover of the observation post. Is that correct?

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. I'm sorry. And you know for a fact that sometime during the

16 movement of the refugees, those APCs, helmets and uniforms were used to

17 disguise the VRS soldiers. Isn't that correct?

18 A. I only saw uniforms, not APCs or helmets when the refugees were

19 taken away.

20 Q. So you're not aware of an APC being seized by the VRS army?

21 A. I am, but at a different point in time. We heard and saw the

22 vehicles at a different point in time. I believe that that was at the

23 time of the first or perhaps the second meeting at Fontana.

24 Q. So it was July 11th, then, that this APC may have been seized?

25 A. It was -- no, no, no, it happened earlier, when the observation

Page 1004

1 posts were taken.

2 Q. Okay. Thank you.

3 Since you were the liaison officer between DutchBat, the

4 civilians, the VRS, and the BiH army, you were advised about different

5 intercepts and communications coming in and out of the posts, weren't you?

6 A. I don't understand the word "posts."

7 Q. Coming in and out of your military compound, your command.

8 A. Really, I don't understand the question. I'm sorry.

9 Q. Were you -- you were aware of communications coming in and out

10 with various radio communications between the Bosnian army, the VRS army,

11 and possibly with UN forces somewhere else in the area.

12 A. I know that in any case, from the PTT building, there were

13 contacts, possibilities of liaison for the Bosnian army.

14 Q. And were you aware that the Bosnian army had a thick blanket of

15 radio intercept spots, locations, all around Srebrenica?

16 A. No, I was not.

17 Q. Did the DutchBat system, DutchBat command post centre there in

18 Potocari, did it have a radio intercept location in there to intercept

19 the Bosnian army and the VRS army radio communications?

20 A. Not in so far as I know.

21 Q. So you wouldn't be able to give me a name of some officer or some

22 other Dutch military person that was working in that area with radio

23 intercepts?

24 A. I think we didn't have such a person.

25 Q. So then you, of course, would not know anything about the

Page 1005

1 American NSA satellite photographs of the area or NSA intercepts of the

2 area during that time?

3 A. Nothing was known about that.

4 Q. Now, I want to go back to your statement with regard to a

5 meeting -- the last meeting that you had with Karremans and Mladic.

6 MS. SINATRA: I'm sorry, I can't see without my glasses.

7 Q. If you would please turn to the page that's marked 00583511, last

8 paragraph, you stated: "We returned to Potocari between 1100 and 1200

9 hours. I discussed the contents and decisions of the meeting with

10 Colonel Karremans. It seemed that he had forgotten about the execution

11 of the plan and the evacuation and supply of fuel for the transportation

12 of refugees. I noted that Karremans had trouble remembering details of

13 our meeting with the Serbs. I don't think he made extensive notes at the

14 meetings either. He looked stressed at that point, just as I myself might

15 have looked."

16 Let me ask you, did Karremans seem a bit incapacitated at the

17 time, after this meeting?

18 Let me rephrase my question. I retract that one. If Karremans

19 had immediately and timely set up the logistics for the UN escorts of the

20 refugees, don't you think that this tragedy may have been prevented?

21 A. I don't think he was in a position to be able to set this up.

22 Q. Well, of course, he did commit to a joint venture with the VRS in

23 the meeting where he agreed that they would provide the buses and the

24 trucks to evacuate the refugees, and he would supply the fuel. Right?

25 A. In any case, with regard to fuel he was to make inquiries. And

Page 1006

1 as far as I can remember, there was some unclarity with regard to the

2 vehicles and General Mladic indicated that he was willing to organise

3 that himself, and we just the fuel. That's my recollection.

4 Q. Well, the truth is from the videotape of Karremans just a moment

5 ago, he stated they had no fuel, so he couldn't have honoured his

6 agreement with Mladic, could he?

7 A. He would ask higher up whether they could organise that from

8 Zagreb or Sarajevo. That was General Mladic's request, and certainly not

9 from Potocari. And that is why it was going to take some time.

10 Q. He asked the higher-ups in Zagreb and Sarajevo for air cover

11 also, didn't he?

12 A. What point of time are you referring?

13 Q. At the time that the Serbs were overtaking the Srebrenica

14 enclave, July 11th, I believe.

15 A. Yes, requests were submitted. I wasn't present myself.

16 Q. And the air cover came too little, too late, too, didn't it?

17 A. You might characterise it like that, yes.

18 Q. In fact, if we hadn't had a combination of too little, too late

19 air cover, too little, too late, fuel, Sarajevo withdrawing Naser Oric,

20 the protector of the Muslims in the area, these casualties might have

21 been prevented. Isn't that correct?

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Sinatra, I don't think this is a good form

23 of question because you are asking the witness to speculate. Put your

24 question another way. Don't put hypothetical questions to this witness.

25 MS. SINATRA: I was just going to ask if he formed an opinion.

Page 1007

1 He was there, he was present during all of these meetings, all of the

2 distress calls, all of the SOS's, he's familiar with the withdrawal of

3 Naser Oric at the last moment. I believe the witness could answer if he

4 has an opinion, not from speculation, but the opinion he formed from being

5 present at the time.

6 JUDGE LIU: What we are going to hear is the fact, not the opinion

7 of this witness. This witness came here not as an expert witness, just as

8 a fact witness. Withdraw your question.

9 MS. SINATRA: I withdraw the question. All right.

10 Q. Major Boering, did you feel deserted and abandoned at the time?

11 A. By whom?

12 Q. By UNPROFOR, by the BH army, by everyone around you?

13 A. Perhaps also by VRS.

14 MS. SINATRA: I pass the witness, Your Honour. No further

15 questions.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Any redirect? Mr. Waespi.

17 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

19 Well, at this moment, are there any documents to tender? From

20 the Prosecution.

21 MR. WAESPI: Yes, there are, Mr. President. And I believe we

22 gave a list already to Your Honours and the Defence. And on that list,

23 it's called "Exhibit for Pieter Boering," the ones that had already been

24 introduced via witness Jean-Rene Ruez are indicated. And the rest we

25 would suggest should be tendered at this point with the only exception of

Page 1008

1 P43, because that video still has not been used with this witness.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any objections? Mr. Karnavas.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Ms. Sinatra?

5 MS. SINATRA: No objections, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So the documents listed on that

7 list are admitted into evidence, except Document P/23. Are there any

8 documents to tender at this moment from the Defence team? Mr. Karnavas.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour, we did provide a list as was

10 requested by you yesterday. And the numbers are D1, D2, D3, D4, D5, and

11 D6. And it has a description of all these documents. We are not

12 tendering the statements given by the major in light of your ruling a

13 couple of days ago. That's it, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 Ms. Sinatra?

16 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. We have no objections to the

17 admission of this evidence.

18 JUDGE LIU: I'm asking if you have any documents to tender.

19 MS. SINATRA: No, we have no documents to tender, but we have no

20 objections.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Any objections from the

22 Prosecution?

23 MR. WAESPI: No, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Those documents D1 to D6 are

25 admitted into the evidence as the Defence evidence.

Page 1009

1 Thank you very much, Witness, for coming to the Tribunal to give

2 your evidence. We wish you good luck in your future.

3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

4 JUDGE LIU: And we also thank the interpreter who is sitting

5 there all the time to assist us. The usher will show you out of the

6 room.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE LIU: There's about ten minutes left. Shall we have an

9 early break and start earlier? I see everybody is nodding. So we will

10 resume at 10 minutes to 4.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 3.19 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 3.51 p.m.

13 JUDGE LIU: Now, before we have the next witness, are there any

14 matters that the parties would like to bring to the attention of this

15 Bench? Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour. If I could go into private

17 session for a very brief comment and request.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

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Page 1012

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [Open session]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

6 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.

7 JUDGE LIU: Can you hear me?

8 THE WITNESS: Yes.

9 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration

10 according to the paper the usher is showing to you, please.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

14 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

15 Ms. Davis, your witness, please.

16 WITNESS: PAUL GROENEWEGEN

17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 Examined by Ms. Davis:

19 Q. Good afternoon.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. Would you please state your name.

22 A. My name is Paul Groenewegen.

23 Q. Could you spell your last name for the record, please.

24 A. G-r-o-e-n-e-w-e-g-e-n.

25 Q. Mr. Groenewegen, can you please tell us what your current

Page 1013

1 affiliation is with the Dutch army.

2 A. My rank is corporal first class.

3 Q. Are you --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please speak into the microphone

5 for the benefit of the interpreters.

6 MS. DAVIS: I apologise.

7 Q. Are you still employed by the army, Mr. Groenewegen?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And how are you currently employed?

10 A. At this moment, I'm awaiting to leave service.

11 Q. So you're not currently in active service?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. It's my understanding that you're in some sort of transition

14 period, transitioning out of the army?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. Can you tell me when you enlisted or began your service with the

17 Dutch military?

18 A. That was in January 1994.

19 Q. And what was your age at the time?

20 A. 17 years.

21 Q. Have you served continuously with the Dutch army from January

22 1994 until now?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I believe you told us that you're a corporal at the present time.

25 Is that right?

Page 1014

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. What was your rank when you first enlisted?

3 A. Soldier, private.

4 Q. As part of your military service, did you ever serve in Bosnia

5 and Herzegovina?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Where was that?

8 A. In Potocari, Srebrenica.

9 Q. Can you tell us the dates of your tour of duty in Srebrenica.

10 A. From January until July 1995.

11 Q. Was that your only tour of duty in Bosnia?

12 A. No, from November 1999 until May 2000.

13 Q. And where were you at that time?

14 A. In Novi Travnik.

15 Q. As I think you're aware, we're going to focus today on the period

16 that you spent in Bosnia in 1995. We've heard from Major Boering that

17 there were two companies of the Dutch battalion assigned to the

18 Srebrenica enclave. I think they were Bravo and Charlie to my

19 recollection. Does that sound right to you?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. To which of these companies were you assigned?

22 A. The Charlie company.

23 Q. And where was Charlie company based?

24 A. In Potocari.

25 Q. That's in the northern part of the enclave?

Page 1015

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. And at the time when you arrived in Srebrenica in January of

3 1995, you held the rank of private?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you briefly describe for us your general duties during the

6 first six months of 1995, from January through June approximately of

7 1995.

8 A. Mainly we patrolled the area and the borders.

9 Q. You should be seeing on your screen in a moment a map of the

10 Srebrenica enclave that has previously been admitted into evidence as

11 Exhibit 20.1. Was your -- the patrols that you describe, were they

12 performed from the Potocari compound?

13 A. Also, but mainly from the OPs.

14 Q. So you served both from the compound and from the OPs?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you -- I apologise. Can you explain if there was some

17 rotation of duty.

18 A. It was customary to spend one week at the compound, followed by

19 two weeks at one OP, then one week at the compound, and two weeks at

20 another OP.

21 Q. Looking at the exhibit that you should have on the screen before

22 you, can you indicate to the Trial Chamber -- can you identify

23 where -- whether there were certain OPs that you were assigned to?

24 A. In my case, it was OP Mike, OP November.

25 Q. From your observations during your time at the OPs, was there to

Page 1016

1 some degree a BiH army military presence inside the enclave?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you aware of -- well, we usually refer to the Bosnian Serb

4 army as the VRS, just for clarification. I may use that term. I believe

5 you usually use the term BSA. Is that right?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. You'll understand if I say VRS, I'm referring to what you call

8 the BSA. Were you aware also of BSA positions outside the borders of the

9 enclave?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I think you mentioned earlier that part of your duties were to

12 perform border patrols.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What was the purpose of the border patrols?

15 A. To see whether there were no conflicts between the two warring

16 parties and whether -- to see whether the truce was respected.

17 Q. During the first few months of your assignment, did

18 you -- beginning in January 1995, did you witness any military activity

19 between the two sides?

20 A. Sometimes.

21 Q. Can you describe what you witnessed.

22 A. Shootings back and forth, sometimes an explosion.

23 Q. In those first few months, did the OPs to which you were assigned

24 ever come under fire from either side?

25 A. No.

Page 1017

1 Q. I'd like to turn to the first week of July 1995. Can you tell me

2 where you were assigned during that first week of July.

3 A. I was at OP Mike at the time.

4 Q. Was that part of a regular rotation?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And if you recall, approximately when did that rotation begin?

7 A. About two weeks prior to that.

8 Q. During that particular rotation at OP Mike, did you and the other

9 soldiers who were there with you have any interaction with BSA forces in

10 their nearby positions?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell me what kind of interaction you had.

13 A. The shooting of OPs with small calibre, large calibre, and mortar

14 shells.

15 Q. Can you tell me approximately what day this firing began.

16 A. I wouldn't be able to be certain.

17 Q. But it was in the first week of July?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were you able to see the BSA soldiers from your position?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was there ever any communication between you or the other

22 soldiers at the OP and the BSA soldiers in their nearby positions?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You mentioned that there was some firing on the OP during that

25 first week of July. Were you aware whether this was occurring at any

Page 1018

1 other OPs at the time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And how did you become aware of that?

4 A. As a result of internal messages.

5 Q. Did you at some point return to the base at Potocari?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And when was that?

8 A. In July.

9 Q. Was that returning to the base part of your regular rotation?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. On the 10th of July when you returned to the base at Potocari,

12 what was the mood of the DutchBat soldiers when you returned?

13 A. Tense, but not worried.

14 Q. Why do you say it was tense?

15 A. Everybody expected something to happen.

16 Q. Because of the firing on the OPs?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you tell us how you spent the remainder of the day on the

19 10th of July.

20 A. Cleaning up our equipment and preparing for subsequent activities.

21 Q. How were you preparing for subsequent activities?

22 A. By going to our station of orders and receiving the next orders

23 there.

24 Q. Did you receive any particular orders on the night of the 10th?

25 A. No.

Page 1019

1 Q. I'd like to turn to the 11th of July and ask you how the situation

2 changed in Potocari on July 11th.

3 A. The night between the 10th and the 11th of July, we slept in the

4 bunker. And we were woken up early in order to cater for the first

5 refugees coming in.

6 Q. You mentioned that you slept in the bunker. Was that an ordinary

7 procedure, or was that due to the firing on the OPs?

8 A. Because of the firing.

9 Q. So on the morning of July 11th, you were awakened early to -- I

10 believe you said to cater to the first refugees coming in. Can you tell

11 me about the arrival of the refugees in Potocari?

12 A. At that moment, little numbers of refugees started to trickle in.

13 Q. And about what time was that, that they began to trickle in, as

14 you recall?

15 A. They had been on their way before we had been woken up. So I

16 can't really tell you when things started.

17 Q. But it was early in the morning?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And from which direction were the refugees arriving?

20 A. From the direction of the town of Srebrenica.

21 Q. And that's in the south. Is that right?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you describe for me the physical, and based on your

24 observations, the emotional condition of the refugees.

25 A. They arrived very exhausted and full of fear.

Page 1020

1 Q. Were they primarily on foot or were they being transported some

2 other way?

3 A. The majority did. Others had been brought to the base by UN

4 vehicles.

5 Q. And what were your responsibilities or assignments with respect

6 to the refugees?

7 A. To ensure that people wouldn't get lost or wouldn't take roads

8 that weren't meant for them.

9 Q. Did you have particular orders with respect to where to direct

10 the refugees?

11 A. We were to direct them towards the base where at the time, there

12 was still space.

13 Q. Did the space run out at the base at some point?

14 A. Yes, quite soon.

15 Q. And then what happened?

16 A. The stream of refugees increased, and they gathered in the area

17 around the base.

18 Q. By the evening of the 11th, can you estimate approximately how

19 many refugees were in Potocari.

20 A. Thousands.

21 Q. And this was inside the UN Compound and outside the compound?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were they -- had they taken shelter outside the compound?

24 A. People tried to find shelter in the factories and the houses that

25 were left empty.

Page 1021

1 Q. Were there also people outside on the roads?

2 A. Most people had to stay outside.

3 Q. During the night between the 11th and the 12th of July, did you

4 return to the bunker to sleep?

5 A. No, we slept outside.

6 Q. Amongst the refugees?

7 A. In a free space that we had created for ourselves.

8 Q. Did you sleep through the night?

9 A. No. We didn't get the opportunity. An hour or two at the most.

10 Q. So you were sleeping in shifts. Is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then you would be called upon to relieve other soldiers?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And when you were not asleep during that night, what were you

15 doing?

16 A. Assist people who required help or asked for assistance.

17 Q. Can you describe for the Trial Chamber what the scene was like

18 during the night between the 11th and the 12th, what you heard, what you

19 saw.

20 A. Mothers and children, elderly men, having not enough food, a few

21 blankets at the most. And it was cold during the night, so these were

22 not the right conditions for people to sleep outside.

23 Q. Let's turn to the 12th of July, 1995. You mentioned that you

24 spent the night outside among the crowd. Did you remain there with the

25 refugees on the morning of the 12th?

Page 1022

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And at some point on the 12th, did you see BSA forces approaching

3 Potocari?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Can you tell us what you witnessed.

6 A. Groups of heavily armed infantry who were moving from the road in

7 the direction of OP Papa towards Potocari.

8 Q. I'm sorry. They were moving in the direction of OP Papa or they

9 were coming from the direction of OP Papa?

10 A. They came from the direction of OP Papa.

11 Q. That's from the north?

12 A. Certainly.

13 Q. From the direction of Bratunac. Is that right?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. You mentioned that there were groups of heavily armed infantry.

16 Did you notice that the soldiers arrived in stages or in groups?

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may object.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: I hesitate to object. I haven't been objecting to

20 the leading nature of the questions. I would appreciate if she would not

21 lead the witness. She can rephrase the question. I know it's a little

22 more difficult to do it that way, but I would prefer the classic,

23 nonleading approach now that we're into this area. Thank you.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. With the last question, I agree with you.

25 Ms. Davis, you have to put your question another way.

Page 1023

1 MS. DAVIS:

2 Q. Can you describe for us the first soldiers that you saw arriving

3 in Potocari.

4 A. They were not dressed as an ordinary army. It was a gathering of

5 all sorts of camouflage, and the same goes for the arms they were

6 carrying.

7 Q. As the soldiers were arriving, could you see or hear any activity

8 in the hills surrounding the village?

9 A. At the same time as the soldiers came in along the road, we

10 noticed that troops were also coming in through the hills. And we heard

11 shelling explosions, and we saw houses catching fire.

12 Q. Did you witness additional BSA troops arriving at a later point?

13 A. After the groups of soldiers, the infantry had come in. About 20

14 or 30 minutes later, other groups came in which appeared to be press to

15 us, cameras, sound recordings, and what appeared to be officers to me.

16 Q. Did this second group that you describe as containing members,

17 camera crews, and what appeared to you to be officers, did they appear to

18 be acting in coordination with the group that had arrived previously?

19 A. It looked like that very much.

20 Q. What was the reaction of the refugees, if you saw that, when the

21 soldiers arrived?

22 A. Initially, most people were afraid and tried to move the other

23 way again, towards Srebrenica.

24 Q. So the crowd of refugees moved towards the southern part of the

25 village?

Page 1024

1 A. No, they wanted to do it, but finally they were spoken to so that

2 they would stay.

3 Q. I'd like to take us to a little bit later in the day, and I'd

4 like to show you a very short videoclip. And as it rolls, if you could

5 tell us what you're seeing in the video and what's going on.

6 [Videotape played]

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the buffer zone we had

8 created for ourselves between the refugees you see over there and the

9 Serbian army.

10 MS. DAVIS:

11 Q. Were you in this area that we're seeing on the video at the time?

12 A. Yes, certainly.

13 Q. I'm not sure whether you were able to identify yourself, but you

14 believe that you're one of the soldiers there in the blue helmets?

15 A. No doubt.

16 Q. Did you remain in that general area for most of the day on the

17 12th?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You mentioned that it was a buffer zone that you had created. Can

20 you explain what you mean by that?

21 A. When we arrived in the area, it was our duty to keep the two

22 parties in the conflict separated. And therefore, that day, too, we

23 tried to maintain a free area between the refugees and the Serbian army.

24 Q. And I noticed in the video that there was some tape strung in

25 front of the crowd of refugees. What was the purpose of that tape?

Page 1025

1 A. To retain the people.

2 Q. Can you tell me just by general description where approximately

3 in the Potocari area this videoclip takes place.

4 A. It's immediately outside the area of the compound in Potocari.

5 Q. I will be showing you in a little while an aerial, and you'll

6 have an opportunity at that time to point it out on that.

7 Corporal, did you become aware at some point on the 12th that

8 refugees were going to be transported out of Potocari?

9 A. Yes, we heard that in advance and saw the buses coming in

10 afterwards.

11 Q. Can you describe -- and did the transportation of refugees out of

12 Potocari at some point begin?

13 A. Yes. The first people to go there were those who wanted to get

14 into the buses on their own account. The people who didn't want to get

15 in kind of withdrew into the background and were forced afterwards to get

16 into the buses still.

17 Q. So you witnessed people being forced to get on to the buses?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you describe what you saw with respect to people going

20 unwillingly to the buses?

21 A. Initially, there was only shouting and people were being called

22 names. And if they still didn't want to get in, then violence was used.

23 Q. When you talk about shouting, calling names and violence being

24 used to take people forcibly to the buses, can you tell me whether it was

25 Dutch soldiers or Serb soldiers who were doing these things?

Page 1026

1 A. Serbian soldiers.

2 Q. Which of the refugees were being taken to buses as you were in

3 this area on the 12th?

4 A. All the people in the area at that moment.

5 Q. So it was women and children and men?

6 A. Yeah.

7 Q. Was there a predominance of women and children, or were there

8 equal numbers of men being taken to the buses?

9 A. It struck us almost immediately that it was almost mainly women,

10 children, and elderly men. We understood that the younger men were being

11 kept behind in the hills.

12 Q. When you say "being kept behind in the hills," what do you mean?

13 A. We talked to some people among the population, and they were

14 convinced that it was better for them to stay behind and fight, rather

15 than to go along willingly.

16 Q. Were there, in the crowd of refugees at Potocari, some younger

17 men?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Were those men boarding the same buses as the women were?

20 A. No, the men were selected from the large crowd and gathered in an

21 empty house.

22 Q. Can you describe to me what you saw with respect to men being

23 separated from the crowd.

24 A. Most of the younger men were taken out of the crowd rather

25 aggressively.

Page 1027

1 Q. By whom?

2 A. By Serbian soldiers.

3 Q. Was it the case that a single soldier would select a man out of

4 the crowd, or were more soldiers involved?

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Ms. Davis will need to ask nonleading questions,

8 who, what, where, why, how, and explain. She can simply explain what he

9 saw and he can explain what he saw. I don't want to interrupt, but I

10 believe she is trying to lead the witness. Thank you.

11 JUDGE LIU: I think this question is just at the border. But

12 anyway, Ms. Davis, try to rephrase your question.

13 MS. DAVIS:

14 Q. Can you explain to us how the Serb soldiers would remove a man

15 from the crowd or select a man from the crowd.

16 A. It was done in many different ways. A single soldier removing a

17 single man or a single soldier picking out groups, or groups of soldiers

18 picking out groups of people. And finally, they were all gathered in the

19 house.

20 Q. You were speaking earlier about the transportation process,

21 people being transported on buses. Did that process continue through the

22 day on the 12th?

23 A. Until in the evening.

24 Q. Did it continue through the night?

25 A. No.

Page 1028

1 Q. Where did you spend the night on the 12th, the night between the

2 12th and the 13th?

3 A. Outside in the -- on the same lawn as where we were staying.

4 Q. Can you describe for us the scene that night of the 12th in

5 Potocari.

6 A. The people who were still there at that time were mainly people

7 who did not want to get on to the bus and wanted to stay. So the mood

8 was fearful.

9 Q. Did the transportation of refugees continue on the 13th?

10 A. Yes. Early in the morning, new buses came.

11 Q. And what were your duties on the 13th with respect to the

12 refugees?

13 A. Possibly to see to it that everything went smoothly, to limit the

14 aggression on both sides.

15 Q. I'd like to show you an aerial of Potocari.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Davis, for the sake of the record, whenever

17 you use an exhibit, please indicate to us the number of that exhibit on

18 the list.

19 MS. DAVIS: Yes, Your Honour. It's number 50, Exhibit 50.

20 Premarked as 50, I should say. And if we could have the aerial placed on

21 the ELMO by the usher, that would be helpful.

22 Q. Corporal Groenewegen, if you can take a look at the aerial --

23 MS. DAVIS: Is there a pointer there that the witness could use?

24 Q. If you could just indicate -- first, let me ask you if you

25 recognise the landmarks that are visible there on the aerial of Potocari.

Page 1029

1 A. Certainly. This is the area right outside the Potocari base.

2 Q. Can you indicate with the pointer the general area where you

3 were -- where you spent your day on the 13th.

4 A. It was in this area.

5 Q. And did you spend most of your day there, or did you move around?

6 A. Certainly. We walked up and down a bit here and there in order

7 to try and stop people who tried to move far away from the buses.

8 Q. Was there at that point on the 13th a line similar to what there

9 had been on the 12th, of where the refugees were being kept?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And were you -- were your duties similar to what they had been on

12 the 12th?

13 A. Yes, exactly the same.

14 [Prosecution counsel confer]

15 MS. DAVIS:

16 Q. From the area that you indicated on the aerial where you spent

17 most of the day on the 13th, can you tell me what you witnessed with

18 respect to the refugees.

19 A. At a given moment, I and a group of other soldiers were sent from

20 the road into the lawn to keep a watch over that area as well.

21 Q. Let me interrupt you there and ask you, you mentioned earlier in

22 your testimony that you had seen men separated from the crowd and taken

23 to a house. Does the house that you were referring to appear on the

24 aerial?

25 A. Certainly.

Page 1030

1 Q. Can you show me using the pointer where the house is. And I am

2 going to have you mark this aerial a little bit later on.

3 A. The house where -- to which I saw refugees taken was this one.

4 MS. DAVIS: I'm sorry, Your Honours. I'm not seeing the pointer

5 on my screen. I don't know if the Trial Chamber is seeing that. Okay.

6 Q. Going back to the separations that you had described, was that a

7 process that you saw on the 13th as well?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you mentioned that men would be separated from the crowd and

10 taken to a house. Could you see into the house?

11 A. From some spots, I could, because one wall had disappeared.

12 MS. DAVIS: I'd like to play a short videoclip.

13 Q. While it's rolling, if you could tell me whether you recognise

14 the house that you're describing.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MS. DAVIS:

17 Q. Did you recognise the house that you were describing on the

18 video?

19 A. Not quite.

20 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Davis, what's the number of that --

21 MS. DAVIS: I apologise, Your Honour. That is P48.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

23 MS. DAVIS: We can play it again.

24 Q. Can you take a look?

25 [Videotape played]

Page 1031

1 MS. DAVIS:

2 Q. Does this area look familiar to you?

3 A. Certainly.

4 Q. And do any of those houses look familiar to you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Are they located near the area where you were standing on the

7 13th?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you recognise any one of those houses as the house where you

10 saw Muslim men being taken or separated from the crowd?

11 A. On the video, I could not see the house.

12 Q. Perhaps we could...

13 How many men would you estimate that you saw separated and taken

14 to the house that you were describing during the day?

15 A. I would have to make a rough estimate.

16 Q. Can you make a rough estimate.

17 A. A few hundred.

18 Q. And were all of those few hundred men held in the house at the

19 same time?

20 A. No. As soon as the house was full, they were taken to a bus.

21 Q. And then what happened?

22 A. The buses drove off in the same direction as the ones into which

23 the buses with the women and children had disappeared. And as soon as

24 the house was full again, the same was repeated.

25 Q. Were the men on the same buses as the women, or were these

Page 1032

1 separate buses?

2 A. There were other buses.

3 Q. A little bit earlier, you mentioned that the line of soldiers was

4 extended beyond the road, I believe. At some point, you had orders.

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. Can you explain to me what you mean by that.

7 A. We were sent into the side field in order to keep watch over that

8 area so that -- and to send people back who wandered too far off.

9 Q. And where were you in the line?

10 A. I was the furthest removed from the road.

11 Q. Looking again at the Exhibit P50, which should still be on the

12 ELMO for you, if -- am I correct that the road that we see going

13 north/south in the middle of the video is the main -- I'm sorry, in the

14 middle of the aerial is the main north/south road through Potocari?

15 A. Certainly.

16 Q. And you had indicated earlier the area where you were positioned

17 on the 13th, near -- we've heard evidence in this trial before that this

18 was a mass of people in the middle of the road. Do you see the area I'm

19 indicating?

20 A. Certainly.

21 Q. Describe to me-- or, in fact, mark on the aerial with a pen where

22 this line that you're describing was.

23 A. [Marks]

24 Q. As I understand it, the DutchBat soldiers spread out into, you

25 said, a field. Can you indicate without marking, I suppose would be

Page 1033

1 better, where this field that you're talking about is?

2 A. It's this meadow.

3 Q. Between the two houses that we see there on either side of your

4 line.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And tell me what you saw at that point -- first, excuse me, where

7 were you on this line of soldiers?

8 A. I was the last one.

9 Q. Can you tell us what you witnessed at this point.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Just a point of clarification, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: I apologise for interrupting, but for the record,

13 we need to make sure that when he's pointing, that they reflect where

14 exactly or make some markings. Because later on, we will not be able to

15 read from the transcript where the gentleman has pointed.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's a very good suggestion. Ms. Davis, you

17 direct the witness to do that.

18 MS. DAVIS:

19 Q. If you can make an X on the approximate area where you were

20 standing.

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Okay. And could you tell us what you witnessed at that point.

23 A. At a certain moment, my attention was attracted by a lot of

24 shouting. A group of Serbian soldiers had taken a man along who was

25 offering resistance. And I saw the men use a bit more aggression to take

Page 1034

1 him along. They took him to the point I'm going to indicate now.

2 Q. You can mark that as well.

3 A. [Marks]

4 MS. DAVIS: It has been marked with a dot, for the record.

5 Q. And then what did you witness?

6 A. I saw the soldiers placing the man with his face to the wall, and

7 from a distance of about 3 metres, shoot him through the head.

8 Q. Was this the first time you had seen the Muslim man?

9 A. No, just before that, my attention had already been attracted

10 then as well by shouting, and it was the same person that was concerned.

11 And I recognised him the second time.

12 Q. Where did you see him the first time?

13 A. That was about here.

14 Q. And how much time passed between when you saw him the first time

15 and when you -- okay. I apologise. If you could mark the area that you

16 just pointed to with an A, for the record.

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Okay. How much time passed between when you first saw him being

19 taken and when you saw the execution?

20 A. About 10, 15 minutes.

21 Q. What was the man wearing?

22 A. Blue jeans, blue-green sweater.

23 Q. And just for clarification, I'm speaking about the man who you

24 saw being shot. Were they civilian clothes or military?

25 A. Civilian clothes.

Page 1035

1 Q. Was the man armed?

2 A. Not as far as I could see.

3 Q. Can you describe for us the clothing of the BSA soldiers.

4 A. It was Serbian camouflage in various shades, various colours.

5 Q. You described that the man was shot in the head. Was it a single

6 shot?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what happened to the man after that?

9 A. Immediately after he was hit by the bullet, he collapsed. And

10 the four men who were nearby walked away a bit.

11 Q. What would you estimate was the distance between where you were

12 standing, marked with an X, and the spot that you marked with a dot on

13 the aerial?

14 A. About 30 metres.

15 Q. Was there anything obstructing your view?

16 A. No. At the utmost, the corner of the house as a result of which

17 I couldn't see the face of the man.

18 Q. Did you recognise the soldiers who were involved in this incident?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Can you tell us whether the area where this occurred was isolated

21 or were there other people around?

22 A. Other people were walking around, but all of them were Serbian

23 soldiers.

24 Q. So there were other Serbian soldiers in the area?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1036

1 Q. Did you notice whether any of them had any reaction to what you

2 witnessed?

3 A. They looked at the incident after hearing the shot, but then they

4 continued their activities.

5 Q. And how far would you estimate the shooting took place from the

6 crowd of refugees?

7 A. 100, 150 metres.

8 Q. What was your immediate reaction or your emotions when you saw

9 the execution?

10 A. I got frightened at a certain stage and wanted to report it.

11 Q. And did you at some point have an opportunity to report what you

12 saw?

13 A. Not that same day.

14 Q. When did you report it?

15 A. The next morning.

16 Q. I just have one final point of clarification, and then I'll be

17 through. Do you remember giving a statement on September 29th, 1995, to

18 a Dutch military policeman on behalf of this Tribunal?

19 A. Yes, certainly.

20 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review that statement in the past

21 few days?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you tell us -- when you gave the statement, was there some

24 confusion on your part about the dates on which these events have

25 occurred?

Page 1037

1 A. Yes, with hindsight, we found that I had shifted everything one

2 day.

3 Q. Are you certain about the dates that you have testified to today,

4 that they're correct?

5 A. Yes, certainly.

6 MS. DAVIS: I don't have any other questions for the witness.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

8 Mr. Karnavas, I'm in your hands whether you are going to do your

9 cross-examination or we have an early break.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: I have a couple of questions, Your Honour, just

11 one minor issue. So...

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, please, if you prefer to continue, please.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well. Thank you, Your Honours.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:

15 Q. Corporal, first, thank you for coming. Second, I understand from

16 the last question posed before coming here today, you had an opportunity

17 to review the statement that you made back on I believe it was the 29th

18 of September, 1995.

19 A. Yes, certainly.

20 Q. And I have another statement. It doesn't have a date to it, but

21 it seems that you dictated and somebody was recording it as far as your

22 observations, a two-page statement. Did you have an opportunity to read

23 that? I received this from the Prosecution.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. As I understand it, back in I believe it was the 4th of July of

Page 1038

1 1996, you came before this Tribunal and you testified as well.

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. And did you have an opportunity to review your transcript, it's

4 fairly short?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So before coming here today, you had the benefit of reviewing

7 what you had put down on -- as a statement and what you had testified

8 orally in Court?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, I just have one question, and if you could help me out, I'd

11 appreciate it: In none of these statements that I have before me, or the

12 transcript from the testimony, do I see anywhere where you have indicated

13 that certain refugees, folks over there in Potocari, who refused to get on

14 the buses were first insulted, then were forced on to them. My question

15 is, in reviewing your statements and in reviewing your transcript, were

16 you able to find that, because I have not been able to?

17 A. Neither have I.

18 Q. So this is the very first time that you're reporting this.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

23 Any cross-examination from Mr. Stojanovic?

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we shall have

25 several questions to ask this witness. In terms of time, I don't think

Page 1039

1 it should take more than 20 minutes.

2 JUDGE LIU: So what's your preference? We'll have our break now,

3 or we'll finish your cross-examination, then have the break?

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] It's up to the Court really.

5 JUDGE LIU: We'll have our early break. We'll resume at 20 to

6 6.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 5.06 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 5.42 p.m.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, your cross-examination, please.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Groenewegen. My name is

12 Miodrag Stojanovic. I represent Mr. Dragan Jokic before this Tribunal.

13 I would like to ask you a number of questions related to your

14 testimony today and also related to what you said on the 4th of July,

15 1996, when you also testified before this Court. The way I understood

16 your testimony today, you were at the checkpoint or rather observation

17 post you referred to as Mike and November, the two observation posts. Is

18 that correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. You were there just before the tragic events in Srebrenica, that

21 means until the 10th of July. Am I correct in assuming that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In the interview you gave on the 4th of July, you said there was

24 shooting from approximately observation posts Papa, shooting -- rather,

25 fire at the aims or targets where you were stationed. Is that correct?

Page 1040

1 A. Yes.

2 MS. DAVIS: Again, if we could have the witness shown his

3 statement, if he's going to be referring to specific portions, that would

4 be helpful.

5 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stojanovic, do you have the statement at your

6 hands? Is it possible to furnish it to the witness?

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do have a

8 statement here in B/C/S. But I have no intention of quoting the

9 statement, so I will not be using the statement in such a way as to make

10 it indispensable for the witness to actually have it before him.

11 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed in this way. Let's see how extensive

12 you're going to use that statement.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. This shooting, this fire, did you take that as a provocation

15 since the actual targets were not being hit?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. Can I, therefore, assume that you understood this firing or

18 shooting by the other side as an attempt on their part to cut the road

19 off towards Potocari for the population trying to get away?

20 A. Yeah, I think so, yes.

21 Q. Am I wrong in concluding that the objective of firing at your

22 positions was also to keep the population in the same place that they were

23 up to that point?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you very much.

Page 1041

1 At one point you provided the following answer to the Prosecution.

2 You said you had talked to one of them, having in mind members of the BH

3 army, and they told you allegedly that it was better for them to fight

4 than to head towards Potocari on a voluntary basis. Is that right?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. Can you please tell us exactly what you understood they meant by

7 saying that.

8 A. It was clear that they knew what was going to happen if they went

9 down.

10 Q. But if they knew what would happen, what about the men, women,

11 children, and disabled persons? Even if they knew what would happen, did

12 they still have a reason in your view for going to Potocari?

13 A. No.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, it seems to me that your

15 question is asking the witness to speculate.

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will try to rephrase my

17 question, Your Honours. I do not want the witness to speculate. I want

18 him to explain what exactly he meant when he said that he had been

19 informed that it was better for them to fight rather than to go of their

20 own free will.

21 Q. The question was, who were the people who headed off to Potocari

22 of their own free will?

23 A. The women and children.

24 Q. They went of their own free will. Is that what you're saying?

25 A. I don't think so. I think they had no other option.

Page 1042

1 Q. I would like to ask another question along the same lines.

2 During your testimony, you used the word "evacuation" on several

3 occasions. This word, did you use it consciously? Do you distinguish

4 between the concepts of evacuation and forcible relocation?

5 A. I didn't choose that word consciously. I now know the difference

6 between the two.

7 Q. May I, therefore, conclude that when you say "evacuation" you

8 were speaking about everything that was going on with the refugees in

9 Potocari?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. This evacuation, or whatever was going on in Potocari, was it the

12 result of fear that you have referred to on several occasions today, fear

13 that the population felt?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you think there was any imperative military reason to have the

16 population evacuated under war circumstances?

17 A. I wouldn't venture to say anything about that.

18 Q. Can I take it that you are unable to actually answer this

19 question? Is it that you don't know the reasons?

20 A. No, but I'm not an expert in this field.

21 Q. Very well, thank you.

22 At the beginning of today's testimony, you said that you observed

23 the presence of the BH army in the enclave of Srebrenica. Is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1043

1 Q. When you say "members of the BH army," what exactly do you mean?

2 Which units and up to which level of units are we talking about in the

3 context of what you saw?

4 A. Men with weapons willing to fight.

5 Q. What sort of weapons?

6 A. Small-calibre weapons.

7 Q. Would you also include in that definition small artillery weapons

8 such as mortars?

9 A. I never observed them having that.

10 Q. What about anti-armour, such as the Zolja or Osa grenade

11 launchers?

12 A. Neither those. When we saw them, it was only small-calibre

13 weapons.

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 Please tell us roughly, having in mind the area that you

16 patrolled, what was the power, the actual force, of those units?

17 A. It could vary from groups of five up to ten men.

18 Q. Were they organised in a military way?

19 A. Not directly.

20 Q. What exactly does that mean, "not directly"? Did they have a

21 command? Did they have a principle of military subordination and

22 organisation?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Thank you. Just a couple more questions: You said in your

25 interview that on that day, you had seen General Mladic. Is that

Page 1044

1 correct, in Potocari?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Was that on the 12th or on the 13th, or both on the 12th and 13th?

4 A. Both days.

5 Q. How long did he stay there?

6 A. He's moving around constantly through the area taking along his

7 regular military staff.

8 Q. Could you draw the conclusion from his behaviour that he was

9 actually in charge of the situation, that he was the man controlling the

10 situation?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. His arrival on the 13th, was that prior to or after the killing

13 of the young men that you talked about today?

14 A. Prior.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. I

16 don't think I've understood the answer.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Prior to the murder.

18 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Was he there when the killing took place?

20 A. No.

21 Q. How long after his departure did this happen?

22 A. A couple of hours afterwards.

23 Q. You said you were standing about 30 metres from where this

24 occurred, right, and also that you were scared, understandably?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1045

1 Q. I hope this is not a pretentious question. Why were you scared,

2 or more specifically the reason for your fear then, was it fear of

3 possible consequences for you and your personal safety?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Does that mean that you actually took any steps in order to stop

6 the crime from happening in as far as it put you at risk?

7 A. It had happened before I had any time to think about it.

8 Q. But we believe the reason for your fear was precisely that.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I'm drawing the examination to a close. Just one more question:

11 Does that also mean that anyone else in your shoes at that time trying to

12 prevent it would have faced the same situation and the same things that

13 you were up against?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just another question,

16 Your Honours, in view of the indictment against my client, as I am

17 probably not likely to have occasion to re-examine this witness. Item 43

18 of the indictment talks about -- count 43 of the indictment talks about

19 two crimes on the 12th of July in connection with opportunistic killings

20 in Potocari. In the forest, next to the UN Compound on the Budak side of

21 the main road, the bodies of nine men were found.

22 Q. Are you aware of that?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And another count, on the 12th of July, the same day, at about

25 700 metres from the UN base in the creek behind the white house, the

Page 1046

1 bodies of nine or ten men were found. Are you aware of that?

2 A. No.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

4 Your Honours. Thank you, Witness. I apologise if you took any of my

5 questions personally.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 Any redirect?

8 MS. DAVIS: No, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 At this stage, are there any documents to tender into evidence?

11 Yes, Ms. Davis.

12 MS. DAVIS: Mr. President, we just have two, and that would be

13 P47 and P50. P20.1 on the list also was admitted previously.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, if it has been admitted previously, you don't

15 have to tender it once again. The effect is the same.

16 Any objections? Mr. Karnavas.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no objections, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Stojanovic?

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Those documents are admitted

21 into evidence. As for the P50, was it admitted before or not?

22 MS. DAVIS: The same aerial was admitted in another form, Your

23 Honour, but this exhibit was not. And it has now been marked by the

24 witness.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Do you think we should have a different number

Page 1047

1 on that piece of evidence? You mean, there are two documents. One is

2 the original; the other is the document marked by the witness. So we'll

3 have different numbers for those two --

4 MS. DAVIS: That would be fine with us, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Madam Registrar will take care of this

6 matter.

7 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as I don't have

9 the indictment now and the numbers, and I think this is an opportunity,

10 the excerpt from the video regarding the identification of the house,

11 which the witness actually failed to identify any of the houses, for that

12 matter, is it 50 or 51, exhibit number?

13 JUDGE LIU: I think it's 48.

14 Any objections from the Prosecution side?

15 MS. DAVIS: We don't have any objection, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. This evidence is admitted as

17 the evidence from the Defence side. The Madam Registrar will be

18 instructed to give a Defence number on it.

19 Thank you very much, Witness, for coming here to give your

20 evidence. I wish you good luck in your future.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My pleasure.

22 JUDGE LIU: The usher will show you out of the room.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE LIU: As for the next witness, are there any protective

25 measures?

Page 1048

1 MS. ISSA: No, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You're pretty sure about that.

3 MS. ISSA: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I didn't hear you.

4 JUDGE LIU: You are sure about that?

5 MS. ISSA: Yes, I am.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 MS. SINATRA: Your Honours.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

9 MS. SINATRA: May I ask permission to have Mr. Dragoslav Djukic

10 leave the courtroom at this point.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

12 MS. SINATRA: Thank you.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness. Or good evening, Witness.

15 THE WITNESS: Good evening.

16 JUDGE LIU: Would you please take the solemn declaration, please.

17 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

18 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

20 Ms. Issa.

21 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 WITNESS: LEENDERT CORNELIS VAN DUIJN

23 Examined by Ms. Issa:

24 Q. Sir, can you state your name for the record, and spell your last

25 name.

Page 1049

1 A. Leendert Cornelis Van Duijn. D-u-i-j-n.

2 Q. And I understand, sir, that you are a captain with the Dutch army;

3 is that correct?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. And at present, sir, where are you serving?

6 A. At Schiphol airport.

7 Q. I understand, sir, that at one point you attended the royal

8 military academy in Breda from 1989 to 1993. Is that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. And in 1993 you were commissioned into the army as a second

11 lieutenant; is that correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 THE INTERPRETER: May the speakers slow down, please, for the

14 benefit of the interpreters.

15 MS. ISSA: Certainly.

16 Q. In 1994, you were promoted as first lieutenant. Is that correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. In 1995, you were deployed to Bosnia with DutchBat III as a

19 platoon commander. Is that correct?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. And how long, sir, had you spent with your platoon training prior

22 to going out to Bosnia?

23 A. The training took about six months prior to deployment.

24 Q. And sir, what was the average age of the men that were serving

25 under you?

Page 1050

1 A. Must have been around 19 years of age.

2 Q. And how old were you at the time?

3 A. I was 24 at that time, turning 25 in May of that year.

4 Q. Can you tell us, what was the size of your platoon?

5 A. The size of my platoon was 34, if I'm not mistaken, 34 soldiers.

6 Q. And who were you subordinated to you? Who was your company

7 commander?

8 A. My company commander was Captain Matthijssen, in the Charlie

9 company.

10 Q. All right. I'd like you, sir, to think back to July 1995 and to

11 specifically focus on the period between the 9th of July and 10th of

12 July, and tell us where you were at that point?

13 A. At that point I was in the blocking position south of the city of

14 Srebrenica.

15 Q. Can you describe to us, sir, what is a blocking position?

16 A. More or less literally the word says itself, we were supposed to

17 take up a position south of the city with our APCs. And together with air

18 supports, we should be able to stop the advancement of the Serb army that

19 was advancing towards the city from the south to the north.

20 Q. And why did you try to stop the advancement of the Serb army?

21 A. Because the Serb army was threatening the city itself, and

22 shelling the city. And because it was a zone -- demilitarised zone where

23 we should protect that area and the people that were in it, that was our

24 focus, to prevent it from being taken by the Serb forces.

25 Q. All right, sir. I'm just going to refer you to Prosecution

Page 1051

1 Exhibit 20.1, which is a map. And I'm going to ask you, sir, if you could

2 look at that map and indicate what your approximate position was at that

3 time. Can you see it? Perhaps the usher can assist you.

4 So what was your approximate position at that point?

5 A. My approximate position was just south of the circle which says

6 Srebrenica.

7 Q. So you were, just for the record, you're indicating that you were

8 south of the UN Bravo company. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right. And can you describe, sir, the scene on the 10th of

11 July while you were in the blocking position?

12 A. We saw people, Muslim refugees, fleeing to the north, passing our

13 position and trying to take everything they had with them as far as they

14 could carry it. Some took food, some took blankets. The people were

15 very scared, panicked, and they tried to get away from that location.

16 We, on the other hand, took up our position there at that location south

17 of the city.

18 Q. All right. And you mentioned earlier, sir, that there was

19 shelling. Can you describe how long the shelling was going on.

20 A. The shelling was going on from even earlier than the 9th. It

21 must have been started somewhere around the 6th. And at that time, when

22 I was in the blocking position, it was constantly directed at our

23 location or at the city itself.

24 Q. All right. Now, while you were in the blocking position, did you

25 see the Muslim army at all?

Page 1052

1 A. I saw some Muslim soldiers, and they were actually at first glad

2 that we were taking up a position there as well.

3 Q. Okay. And where did you see the Muslim soldiers?

4 A. Near to my location.

5 Q. Okay. And what were they doing?

6 A. They were shooting in the direction of the south. It wasn't

7 clear to me at what they were shooting, or they were shooting or they

8 were moving towards the south or back again.

9 Q. All right, sir. Now, moving then to the 11th of July, 1995, can

10 you tell us whether or not the refugees remained in Srebrenica?

11 A. The refugees had by then all were vanished from my location.

12 They were all going towards the compound of the Bravo company or more

13 north to the compound of Charlie company, which was in Potocari. So

14 practically all the refugees were fleeing to the north.

15 Q. And when did you leave the blocking position, sir?

16 A. I left there in the afternoon when it was clear to us that not

17 only the refugees, but also the Muslim soldiers had left there because at

18 a later stage, they were scared that we would leave from that location

19 and threatened to shoot at our APCs with an anti-tank rockets. So by the

20 time that they had left, it was safer for us to leave as well. So that

21 must have been around 12.00 or 1.00.

22 Q. All right. So can you describe to us, sir, the scene as you saw

23 it when you left Srebrenica or the blocking position.

24 A. Srebrenica was empty. There was no one left. More or less sort

25 of a ghost city.

Page 1053

1 Q. And where did you go, sir?

2 A. We went -- at first we went to the location of the UN Bravo

3 company where a lot of refugees had packed together and were starting to

4 move to the compound of Charlie company and the battalion headquarters in

5 Potocari.

6 Q. And as you moved back to the compound in Srebrenica, did you see

7 anybody on the road between Srebrenica and Potocari?

8 A. No, that part of the city was totally abandoned.

9 Q. All right. I'd just like to take you, sir, now to the evening of

10 11 July to 12 July. Can you tell us, sir, where you were that evening

11 and what happened?

12 A. I was at a point we call point 02. That was south of the

13 compound of the Charlie company in Potocari. It was the inner section

14 that was the road to Susnjari and to the location of the OP or

15 observation post Mike. We took up a position there with a few APCs

16 because the APC of Sergeant Mulder that was stationed on OP Mike was

17 coming back to the compound in Potocari, and there were a lot of refugees

18 with him near his APC. So we took up a position to wait for him there.

19 Q. And how did you know that Sergeant Mulder was coming back to that

20 position?

21 A. He radioed in and said he was coming with a lot of refugees.

22 Q. All right. So turning back to, sir, the map, Exhibit P20.1, can

23 you indicate on the map where point 02 is, when you took that position?

24 A. Point 02 is the intersection from the road from Susnjari to

25 Potocari, and where it crosses the road from Potocari on southwards to

Page 1054

1 Srebrenica. So the intersection is called "point 02."

2 Q. Thank you. Do you recall the arrival of Sergeant Mulder that

3 evening?

4 A. Our APCs were parked alongside the road. And his APC, he had

5 parked it in the middle of our APCs. And it was packed with refugees. I

6 spoke to Sergeant Mulder for about ten minutes, and in the meanwhile, my

7 soldiers started to help the refugees to come off the APC. And the APC

8 was totally covered with refugees, and alongside the APC was also sort of

9 a caravan with a few hundred refugees that accompanied him.

10 Q. Can you tell us, sir, around what time did he arrive in the

11 evening?

12 A. That must have been around 11.00 in the evening.

13 Q. We can then move on to 12 July, 1995, in the morning. Can you

14 tell us where you were in the morning and what happened.

15 A. I was still near point 02, a little bit to the north. We had

16 regrouped our APCs about a hundred metres to the north, hundred fifty

17 metres maybe. And we heard that some Serb soldiers had been seen

18 crossing near the compound of the Charlie company and the battalion

19 headquarters in Potocari. And they were on the road. And we could

20 see -- also see some soldiers crossing through the fields on the eastern

21 side of the road, and coming on the road again at point 02, just south of

22 our location.

23 Q. And when you heard that on the radio, sir, did you do anything,

24 or what did you do?

25 A. We were ordered, Captain Groen from Bravo company was there as

Page 1055

1 well, and we were ordered to assemble our small-calibre weapons, assemble

2 them in one APC that was locked, and we got ordered to put our .50 calibre

3 machine-gun on top of the APC, to point it to the sky to prevent possible

4 escalation when the Serb troops came to our location.

5 Q. And did you see, sir, what the Serbs were doing when they

6 arrived?

7 A. The Serbs that were coming to the fields from the eastern side of

8 the road and getting on to the road at point 02, a few of the Serb

9 soldiers kept standing on the road, a few Serbs entered houses and came

10 out of the houses later on again. And it was my impression that they

11 were checking if the houses were empty. And the other Serb soldiers that

12 followed the road from north to south to our location, came to our

13 location and started passing out of cigarettes and other stuff.

14 Q. And who did they pass out the cigarettes to?

15 A. To the UN soldiers to, my soldiers.

16 Q. Okay. And can you describe the uniform of the Serb soldiers.

17 A. Green camouflage, but also combined with all sorts of shirts,

18 bandannas, backpacks of all sorts of colours so more or less combined

19 uniforms. One of the soldiers I remember had a Serb flag draped around

20 his body.

21 Q. All right. And you mentioned, sir, that some of them had a

22 backpack full of cigarettes which they passed out to your soldiers or the

23 UN Dutch soldiers. What was your impression of that?

24 A. My impression of that was that they were trying very hard to show

25 that they were nice guys, and they try to make friends of some sort with

Page 1056

1 our soldiers.

2 Q. All right. And you also mentioned, sir, that some of them went

3 into houses. Did you -- do you know who these houses belonged to?

4 A. I know that the Muslim refugees had been living in those houses

5 for a few years.

6 Q. Now, I understand that later on that morning, you met with

7 Captain Groen. Is that right? Or company commander.

8 A. Yes, he was still on my location there.

9 Q. Do you know around what time this was?

10 A. At the end of the morning, maybe around 11.00 in the morning,

11 10.00, 11.00.

12 Q. What did you discuss with him?

13 A. By then, it was more or less clear to us that we were no longer

14 in control. We didn't have any control any more because basically our

15 weapons were put away. So I was asking him what to do next, what would

16 be happening next. And I wondered if I could do anything at all because

17 we were more or less waiting there for events to take place. And

18 Captain Groen said to me, we'll just go north, there's a big

19 concentration of refugees just south of the UN base, and maybe you can

20 help over there. And that's what I did.

21 Q. And this was in Potocari?

22 A. That was in Potocari, just south of the UN base.

23 Q. And did you -- you indicated you went there. And how many

24 refugees did you see when you arrived?

25 A. Scattered around the big factory sites, must have been around 20

Page 1057

1 or 30.000 refugees that were packed over there. It's very difficult to

2 make an estimation, of course. But that's more or less my estimation, 20

3 to 30.000 refugees.

4 Q. And what did you do when you arrived?

5 A. I went looking for the UN soldiers that were over there. And

6 they were -- from the moment I came there looking at me as to ask what to

7 do. And I heard about a stampede of refugees that were trying to get

8 into the compound because they thought it was safer there. But I heard

9 that the compound, our UN Compound, was already packed with refugees, so

10 I got the order by radio not to lead anyone through again, to let anyone

11 through towards the compound. So we organised UN soldiers, formed a

12 human chain on the road, and try with the interpreter, tried to make it

13 clear to the refugees that they could not go to the UN Compound and they

14 had to stay there and try to find some shade, get out of the sun, and try

15 to calm them down a little bit because they were very scared, panicked,

16 more or less in shock from all the events that had taken place in the

17 previous days.

18 Q. All right, sir. I'm going to ask you, then, to refer to

19 Exhibit -- Prosecution Exhibit P51, which is an aerial. If you see that

20 on your screen, I'm going to ask you, sir, what position you took when

21 you arrived, when you were directing the soldiers among the refugees.

22 A. It must have been in the middle of the road, in between the zinc

23 factory, and the express bus compound, a little bit to the south on that

24 road.

25 Q. And what happened next, sir? Do you recall meeting a member of

Page 1058

1 the VRS?

2 A. I remember that when we were trying to organise the UN soldiers,

3 I remember that General Mladic came to that location, and there was a

4 film crew with him, and he was trying to make sort of a propaganda movie

5 handing out stuff to the refugees, talking to them. I could not

6 understand what he was saying, but it was sort of a lightning visit by

7 General Mladic at that location.

8 Q. Sorry, please continue.

9 A. That's...

10 Q. All right.

11 A. Okay.

12 Q. Turning then to Prosecution Exhibit P56, I'm going to ask you if

13 you -- I'm going to show you a photograph. And just for the record, you

14 did have an opportunity to see these photographs when we met a few days

15 ago. Is that correct?

16 A. I haven't got a picture --

17 Q. I did show you some photographs --

18 A. You did show me some photographs.

19 Q. And you also had an opportunity to watch portions of a video. Is

20 that correct?

21 A. Yeah, that's correct.

22 Q. Do you see anything on your screen right now, sir?

23 A. I see a picture.

24 Q. It has just come up on mine now. There was a bit of a delay.

25 Can you identify the individuals in that photograph?

Page 1059

1 A. I can see that the person on the left is General Mladic. And the

2 person on the right is Colonel Jankovic.

3 Q. All right. So let's just talk about Colonel Jankovic for a

4 moment. Did you see him that day?

5 A. I had a conversation with him. He was standing there alone

6 dressed in a camouflage uniform with a brown leather bag on his shoulder.

7 And I was wondering what sort of a soldier he was. So I began a

8 conversation with him, and he told me that he was a colonel, logistics

9 officer, and he had fought in the war in 1991 and 1992, then went back to

10 his business in Belgrade, and he was back for this part of the war again

11 as a logistics officer.

12 Q. And how did you communicate with him?

13 A. In English.

14 Q. Okay. And what did he appear to be doing when you saw him?

15 A. It looked to me like he was just looking around, more or less

16 inspecting what was happening over there.

17 Q. Okay. And you indicated he mentioned to you that he was a

18 logistics officer, and you had a brief conversation. Do you recall if he

19 said anything else to you at that point?

20 A. It was very strange because we were more or less just conversating

21 about all sorts of things. And then he mentioned that I was more or less

22 lucky because I was still alive. But he said it in a very strange

23 fashion. And later, I have met Colonel Jankovic on several occasions, and

24 he always -- we didn't have a long conversation the other times I spoke

25 with him. He always pointed at me and just said, well, I see that you're

Page 1060

1 still alive. That was the only thing he said to me, and he said it in a

2 very strange way, so it made a big impression on me.

3 Q. So he always greeted you with that phrase.

4 A. Yeah.

5 Q. And do you recall when was the last time you saw him?

6 A. The last time I saw him was when he was together with Colonel

7 Karremans and Major Franken. And he was inspecting our compound. It was

8 the day before we left. I think that was the 19th or the 20th of July,

9 the day before we left to go to Zagreb. And we were told that there was

10 a high-ranking Serb officer that was coming and inspecting what we would

11 leave behind and what we would take with us. And I saw him walking

12 together with Colonel Karremans and Major Franken. And he saw me as well,

13 and he greeted me in the same way again.

14 Q. Getting back to the 12th of July, sir, can you tell us, what was

15 the next significant thing that happened that you recall?

16 A. After General Mladic went away, I met with a Serb captain whose

17 name was Mane, and he had an interpreter with him called Miki. And he

18 asked me if I was the local UN commander at that location, and I stated to

19 him that I was. And he practically stated to me that the refugees were

20 going away, that there were buses on the way, and they would be there in a

21 few minutes.

22 Q. Okay. So we'll get back to that conversation in a moment. Do

23 you know, sir, what military unit that Captain Mane belonged to?

24 A. He said he was from a military police unit, and he had a sort of

25 liaison with the Drina Corps or Drina Wolves. As I understood, the Drina

Page 1061

1 Corps and the Drina Wolves were the same unit. And he had a sort of

2 liaison -- he was not part of the Drina Corps, but he had a liaison with

3 that unit.

4 Q. Turning to Prosecution Exhibit 52, which is another photograph

5 that I'd like you to take a look at, do you see that on your screen, sir?

6 A. I see, yeah.

7 Q. Can you tell us if you recognise any individuals on that

8 photograph.

9 A. The person on the left is the Serb captain named Mane, and the

10 person on the right is myself.

11 Q. Thank you. And just another photograph, Prosecution Exhibit 53.

12 Can you tell us if you recognise that individual.

13 A. That person is Mane as well, the Captain Mane.

14 Q. In your conversation with him, sir, did you have occasion to

15 learn who Captain Mane's commander was?

16 A. He said that his commander had -- I only know the commander by

17 his nickname, the code name used on the radio, and that code name was

18 Stalin.

19 Q. And that was the only name that you knew him by?

20 A. Yes, yes, only by his nickname.

21 Q. And had you seen Stalin before?

22 A. I hadn't seen him before, but I saw him later that day. And Mane

23 pointed him out to me and said that that was his commander, code name

24 Stalin.

25 Q. And did you get a general description from Mane as to what Stalin

Page 1062

1 looked like?

2 A. The general description he gave was he was a short fellow with a

3 big moustache and big Ray Ban glasses on.

4 Q. All right, sir. If I can then refer you to Prosecution Exhibit

5 P54 and ask you if you recognise anybody on that photograph.

6 A. Person on the right is the person I know as Stalin.

7 Q. And turning then to Prosecution Exhibit P55, do you recognise

8 anybody in that photograph?

9 A. The person on the left, I know as Stalin, and the person in the

10 middle is General Mladic.

11 Q. Thank you. Getting then back to the conversation you had with

12 Mane, can you tell us what else did he tell you? What else did he say to

13 you?

14 A. Well, he practically told me that the refugees were going to

15 leave, that there was no discussion about. He only said to me, well, you

16 have the choice of staying here or leaving. And then we'll do it our own

17 way.

18 Q. What did he mean by that? What did you understand that to mean

19 "we'll do it our own way"?

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: I will object on the basis of speculation. She is

23 asking the witness to speculate.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I think so.

25 MS. ISSA: My submission, Your Honour, it's not speculation. He

Page 1063

1 was having a conversation with Mane, and he may be able to explain why he

2 understood what he understood.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may ask some questions about the

4 conversations around this sentence so that we could understand the

5 circumstances in which the sentence he said.

6 MS. ISSA: Certainly.

7 Q. Did he say anything else to you, sir, aside from "you can either

8 leave or we can do it our own way"?

9 A. That was more or less the phrase that he used. And he said that

10 the buses were on their way. And I got the impression from the way he

11 said it that it was better for us to stay there and practically stand in

12 between the Serbs and the Muslim refugees to try and prevent that anything

13 bad would happen to the refugees.

14 Q. All right. So when you say it was better for you to stay there

15 and stand in between the Muslims -- the Muslim refugees and the Serbs, to

16 prevent anything bad from happening to them, what do you mean by that?

17 A. Well, you can see that the situation that we were practically in

18 a few days shelled from the southern part of the city to the location

19 that we were there, that there was a lot of violence used in the war

20 before, which I knew from the scenes I had seen on television. It was

21 better for us, and I thought it was a role from the UN soldiers, that

22 they would be in between so that the refugees were not being handled in

23 any bad way.

24 Q. All right. And what was the condition of the refugees at that

25 time?

Page 1064

1 A. They were very scared, of course. Tired. It was 35 degrees

2 centigrade. It was very warm. They were practically in a state of shock

3 from the situation from the few days before. And they were particularly

4 very scared and more or less panicky.

5 Q. All right, sir. Did you at some point find out who Stalin was

6 subordinated to?

7 A. I remember a visit from Stalin with a man I knew as Major Nikolic.

8 And from the way they came to our location, it was my idea that Nikolic

9 was the commander of Stalin; Stalin was more or less explaining what was

10 happening on that location, and he was speaking to him in a way, and Major

11 Nikolic was walking and looking around in a way that I got the impression

12 that Major Nikolic was the commander of the two.

13 Q. Later that day, sir, I understand that you saw General Mladic for

14 a second time. Is that correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. What time was that?

17 A. That must have been about, in the afternoon, about 2.00 or 3.00 in

18 the afternoon.

19 Q. Can you describe to us, sir, what he was doing the second time?

20 A. He came up to me and wanted to speak to me, wanted to speak to

21 the commander of the UN unit there. And that was me, of course. And he

22 spoke with me and a few of my soldiers and my interpreter. My Muslim

23 interpreter was there as well.

24 Q. What did he say to you?

25 A. First the conversation was more or less about all sorts of

Page 1065

1 things, about sports, about soccer, all sorts of things that came up

2 about sports. Then he asked me a question about one of the soldiers that

3 was there as well. And he was a soldier, a black soldier, Dutch soldier.

4 And he said to me that he was more or less surprised that -- and

5 wondering if that was a Dutch soldier or not. And I explained to him

6 that we have a multiracial society in Holland. That was as well a Dutch

7 soldier. And then he stated to me that that was not good, that we had a

8 multiracial society, and that the Muslims would be -- sorry, the Serbs

9 would be in Holland in ten years from that day to help the Dutch against

10 the Muslims.

11 Q. Did he do anything else, sir, or say anything else?

12 A. He made a sort of role play with my Muslim interpreter who had

13 been in a tricky situation because his UN pass was taken away by the

14 bodyguards of Mladic. And he asked me, he put his arm around the Muslim

15 interpreter, and he asked me what nationality that interpreter had. And

16 I answered him that he was Muslim. And then he continued in a sort of

17 role play, and General Mladic said, well no you're wrong. This is Serb,

18 and he pointed at my Muslim interpreter, this is a Serb, this is a good

19 guy. And I, and he pointed himself, I'm a Muslim, I'm a bad guy, bad

20 person, and I'm only interested about making babies and he crushed the

21 Muslim interpreter to his body, and it was obvious to me that the Muslim

22 interpreter was very scared. It was a sort of bizarre role play that

23 General Mladic was playing.

24 Q. You mentioned, sir, that the UN pass for the Muslim interpreter

25 was taken. Can you tell us by whom?

Page 1066

1 A. By the bodyguards that accompanied General Mladic.

2 Q. Did you do anything as a result of that?

3 A. We later on, we managed to get the pass back from the bodyguards

4 for Mladic.

5 Q. How long did General Mladic stay at your position?

6 A. He stayed there for about half an hour, 45 minutes.

7 Q. How long was your conversation with him?

8 A. I think that took about 10 or 15 minutes.

9 Q. While General Mladic was present, was the transportation process

10 ongoing?

11 A. The process was ongoing, yes.

12 Q. Do you recall any particular incident while General Mladic was

13 present involving the transportation process of the refugees out of

14 Potocari?

15 A. I remember that after the conversation, General Mladic went a

16 little bit north from our location, about 50 metres, and he was standing

17 there with his interpreter. And I remember that a Muslim woman was very

18 panicked, she was screaming. And one of my soldiers got her out of the

19 crowd, and through my interpreter, we asked what was going on. And she

20 said that her five children she had lost in the crowd were already put on

21 one of the trucks, and it was the last truck from the caravan. And we

22 could see the children in the back of the truck waving towards us and

23 their mother. And I decided then to bring the mother to the truck, and

24 was about maybe, a hundred, hundred fifty metres from our location. And

25 General Mladic was in the middle of the distance. And I asked my

Page 1067

1 interpreter to help me, to go up to General Mladic because we had a sort

2 of an understanding that you had the Muslim refugees, we were standing in

3 the middle of the Muslim refugees and the Serb soldiers. So behind our

4 location, there was -- the area was only -- the only people that were in

5 that area were the Serb soldiers near to the buses.

6 So I was more or less crossing the border where we normally would

7 not be, UN soldiers, I mean. So I asked the Muslim interpreter to help

8 me to go up to General Mladic because he was the ranking officer there

9 and explain what I was doing because I was crossing that border. And I

10 carried the woman to the truck, put her in the back of the truck. And

11 when I returned, I saw the Muslim interpreter standing near to General

12 Mladic, and I was glad that he helped me, that he explained to General

13 Mladic what was going on because I was afraid that any of the Serb

14 soldiers would think that was a strange action and maybe shoot at me or

15 do something else. And the only thing -- the only person I knew that

16 could prevent that was General Mladic. And when I came to General

17 Mladic, he said that I was a little bit crazy to do such a thing, but he

18 was terribly angry about not what I had done, but about the fact that the

19 Muslim interpreter had come to him and started speaking without it being

20 obvious that he was interpreting for me. So General Mladic was very

21 angry with me and the Muslim interpreter, and he said if that would

22 happen again, he would shoot the interpreter there single-handedly.

23 Q. Can you just clarify why he said he would shoot the interpreter?

24 A. Because the interpreter was speaking to him directly, not in a

25 way that he was interpreting for me and saying the things to General

Page 1068

1 Mladic what I was saying, but because he was directly speaking to General

2 Mladic, General Mladic was very angry with him.

3 Q. All right. And do you recall, sir, what was happening in Potocari

4 next, after that?

5 A. The transports continued.

6 Q. Okay. And can you describe the transportation process.

7 A. Transportation process was more or less the buses arrived,

8 Captain Mane would tell me how many buses there were and to prevent the

9 buses and the trucks being packed with refugees, we would let a number of

10 people through in a way that they wouldn't trample each other or push each

11 other to the ground. And in small groups, that they would be able to

12 enter the buses and the trucks in a quiet, calm way.

13 Q. And can you tell us, sir, did you observe how the Muslims were

14 being treated by the Bosnian Serb soldiers while they were boarding the

15 buses?

16 A. I heard that while they were boarding the buses, some of our

17 soldiers were there. They saw that they were kicked and pushed into the

18 buses.

19 Q. And can you tell us, sir, what was the composition of the groups

20 of people who boarded the buses.

21 A. Mainly women and children, and there were not that many men there

22 in the big group of refugees. But after a while, when the transports

23 were ongoing, I noticed that the men were singled out from the rest of

24 the group that was going towards the buses and trucks.

25 Q. And did you see how the men were singled out?

Page 1069

1 A. A few incidents I remember because it happened on the location

2 where we were. But most of the time, it happened behind our location and

3 was more or less that they were speaking in Serbo-Croat, so I couldn't

4 understand. And practically were told that they should leave the rest of

5 the group and go and sit on a lawn in front of a few houses.

6 Q. Okay. And what did you do when you saw the men being singled

7 out?

8 A. I confronted the Serb captain Mane with what I saw. And he

9 explained to me that they wanted to see if the men from Srebrenica were

10 war criminals or not. And that they had a list in Bratunac where they

11 would compare the names with the names of the men, and they would see if

12 they were war criminals or not. And if they were war criminals, they

13 would be kept as prisoners of war. And if they were not, they would be

14 grouped back with the rest of the refugees.

15 Q. And after receiving this explanation from Captain Mane, what did

16 you do when you saw specific men being singled out?

17 A. Because his explanation was that they were looking for soldiers

18 or war criminals, as he stated it, when there was a very young boy or a

19 very old man singled out, I protested and said to him, well, you can't be

20 serious, that cannot be a soldier or couldn't be a soldier. And he would

21 let them go with their families again. So we protested in every way that

22 we could.

23 Q. Were you able to protest in relation to all the men?

24 A. No, no.

25 Q. Why not?

Page 1070

1 A. Because men that were dressed in camouflage trousers or shirts,

2 they really looked fit, 20, 30 years of age, that would possibly had been

3 a soldier in the war, then it would be -- it would have lost its effect if

4 I had protested with every man that was singled out. And of course, you

5 have the people that are in the grey area that you think, well, should I

6 protest or not? But when the men looked really -- looked like soldiers

7 or could have been soldiers, then I didn't protest.

8 Q. Can you describe, sir, the clothing of the majority of the men

9 that were singled out? What were they wearing?

10 A. Civilian clothes.

11 Q. I'm going to just refer you to the last Prosecution exhibit

12 before we end for the day, referring to Prosecutor's Exhibit 51, which is

13 the aerial that we referred to earlier. You see that on your screen?

14 A. I see it now, yeah.

15 Q. You mentioned, sir, that the men that were being separated out on

16 this day were taken to a lawn in front of a house. Can you tell us

17 approximately where is that located.

18 A. The houses were more or less adjacent to the zinc factory, so

19 more or less in between the zinc factory and the white house, because

20 they weren't kept in the white house. That was only on the second day.

21 But there must be two houses in the middle. I can't see that very well

22 on this screen. But it was on the right side of the road, on the western

23 side of the road, and in between the white house and the zinc factory.

24 Q. And all right. This is as you say a different house than the

25 white house than we've heard of earlier.

Page 1071

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And can you describe to us, sir, what was the condition of this

3 house?

4 A. The houses had a small lawn in front of them. The houses had no

5 windows, very damaged houses, two houses next to each other.

6 Q. All right. And were they taken to both these houses next to each

7 other or to one?

8 A. On the lawn in front of the two houses.

9 Q. And how long, sir, did the men stay on the lawn outside these two

10 houses?

11 A. The rest of the day until it was getting dark. I think about

12 8.00, half past 8.00 in the evening. Then they were -- they were picked

13 up by a lorry I recognised from earlier that day because it also was

14 there when bringing bread. And with that lorry, they were transported

15 out of the enclave.

16 Q. And what time, sir, did the transportation of the Muslim refugees

17 stop that day?

18 A. That must have been around -- a little bit before the men were

19 taken away, so that must have been around half past 7.00, 8.00 or

20 something.

21 Q. All right. Thank you. And can you tell us, sir, what direction

22 were the men taken away to?

23 A. To the north, to Bratunac.

24 MS. ISSA: Thank you.

25 Your Honour, this might actually be a good time to end for the

Page 1072

1 day. I do have other areas that I'm going to be getting into, subject,

2 of course, Your Honour. Perhaps it might be a good time. It's 5 minutes

3 to 7.00.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll stop here and you'll continue tomorrow

5 afternoon.

6 MS. ISSA: Thank you.

7 JUDGE LIU: Witness, I have to warn you that you are still under

8 the oath. So during your testimony, do not talk to anybody and do not

9 let anybody talk to you about the contents of your testimony.

10 We'll see you tomorrow afternoon.

11 THE WITNESS: Okay.

12 JUDGE LIU: The proceeding is adjourned.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

14 at 6.56 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

15 the 11th day of July, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.

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