1 Tuesday, 15 July 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 10.49 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Madam Registrar,

6 would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning. Case Number IT-02-60-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I'm sorry this morning we start

10 a little bit late, because we are waiting for the decision rendered by the

11 Appeals Chamber concerning the protective measures. Now, we have already

12 got it.

13 Before we start, are there any matters the parties would like to

14 bring to the attention of this Tribunal?

15 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, just for the record, I would like to

16 introduce our legal intern from the University of Florida, her name is

17 Ashleigh Barnes, and she will be joining our team temporarily. Thank you.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I think this Trial Chamber will

19 adopt a liberal mind toward this issue.

20 Is there any response, Mr. McCloskey?

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, we're fine with all that.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, thank you very much. And the -- what I want to

23 say, that we will regard interns as a member of your team, as natural, and

24 she should abide by the rules of this Trial Chamber, and especially on the

25 confidentiality of some of the proceedings before this. Do you understand

1 that?

2 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. Before the interns are allowed to

3 work here at the Tribunal and join a Defence team, they sign the

4 confidential orders with the Registry and all the proper papers before

5 they're allowed to join us.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

7 MS. SINATRA: Thank you.

8 JUDGE LIU: Another matter is that I understand you request some

9 members of your team during the proceedings to enter and leave the

10 courtroom, as you might need some documents.

11 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour, I did make that request, but it

12 would go not only to the intern because when she is not here, we would

13 have the interpreter. But it would save time of the Trial Chamber and the

14 Defence if when there are a need for copies or documents, they can leave

15 the courtroom during the proceedings instead of waiting for our 30-minute

16 break. If you would abide by that, we would try not to distract the

17 proceedings in any way.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much. I understand that to

19 facilitate the proceedings and the members of the both parties could,

20 could enter or exit from this courtroom if there's a real necessity. But

21 the condition is to not do it so often and do not obstruct the proceedings

22 of the hearing in this courtroom and show some respect before you enter

23 and leave this courtroom. Your request is granted.

24 MS. SINATRA: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

1 Could we go to the closed session and bring the witness, please.

2 [Closed session]

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4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in public session. Mr. McCloskey, you may

6 start your direct examination, please.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Examined by Mr. McCloskey:

9 Q. Could you please state your name and spell your last name slowly

10 for the record, please.

11 A. Kemal Mehmedovic.

12 Q. How do you spell your name? Could you just spell it out with the

13 letters for the people writing it down.

14 A. K-e-m-a-l M-e-h-m-e-d-o-v-i-c.

15 Q. Are you a Muslim by faith?

16 A. Yes, I am.

17 Q. And how old are you?

18 A. I'm 51 years old.

19 Q. And where were you born?

20 A. In the village of Kamenica in Zvornik Municipality.

21 Q. And where did you work before the war?

22 A. I worked in Belgrade. I worked for the Ratko Mitrovic Company.

23 Q. How long did you work for that company?

24 A. I worked for them for 18 years and several months.

25 Q. What kind of work did you do?

1 A. I was a construction worker.

2 Q. And when did you leave that job?

3 A. On the 3rd of April, 1992.

4 Q. Why did you leave that job?

5 A. When the war broke out, we left and didn't return to Belgrade

6 after that.

7 Q. And when you left Belgrade, where did you go?

8 A. To Kamenica, the place of my birth.

9 Q. And did you eventually move down to the Srebrenica Municipality?

10 A. Yes. When my village fell, we headed towards the free territory

11 of Konjevic Polje because Mr. Morillon had arrived there at the time with

12 UNPROFOR.

13 Q. Where did you go from Konjevic Polje?

14 A. We left Konjevic Polje around the 14th of March and went to

15 Srebrenica.

16 Q. Was that 1993?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What family members were with you when you went to Srebrenica?

19 A. My two brothers were with me.

20 Q. And what did you three brothers do in Srebrenica to get by?

21 A. One of my brothers worked as a cook in the army, and the other was

22 an invalid. We were mostly involved in agriculture.

23 Q. And what did you do on 11 July, 1995?

24 A. On that date, we were waiting because the people had withdrawn

25 from the top of Srebrenica the day. We were only waiting for the time

1 when Srebrenica would be left.

2 Q. Can you briefly describe what was going on and what you were

3 waiting for.

4 A. We were waiting because they were negotiating -- first of all,

5 they told us that there were negotiations and that we shouldn't leave

6 Srebrenica. Later, people found out that the negotiations had come to

7 nothing. At around 1.00, they said: "People we've got to leave

8 Srebrenica." The women and children went towards Potocari, and the

9 younger people who were fit for military service headed in the direction

10 of Tuzla through the woods.

11 Q. What were you getting away from?

12 A. We were fleeing from the Serbian army.

13 Q. So where did you go on 11 July?

14 A. We headed towards the Susnjari village. We all gathered there,

15 and then headed in the direction of Tuzla in columns.

16 Q. When you say "we," who do you mean?

17 A. I mean the men who set off through the woods in the direction of

18 Tuzla.

19 Q. And were your two brothers with you?

20 A. Yes. The brother who was physically fit was with me, and the

21 other one, the invalid, went to Potocari where UNPROFOR was.

22 Q. Did either of your brothers survive?

23 A. Yes. The invalid brother, my invalid brother did survive.

24 Q. But your other brother that went with you in the woods did not?

25 A. He was captured at the place where I was, but he wasn't at the

1 same location, the execution site.

2 Q. About when did you start heading off through the woods from

3 Susnjari?

4 A. About 3.00 or 4.00 in the afternoon.

5 Q. What day was that?

6 A. It was on the 12th of July.

7 Q. While you were around there at Susnjari, were you able to make any

8 kind of an estimate of the number of people that had assembled there?

9 A. About 15.000 people.

10 Q. How many people did you see that were armed with some sort of

11 weapon?

12 A. Between two and three hundred people had infantry weapons.

13 Q. Could there have been more than that that you didn't see, or do

14 you think that was all of them?

15 A. Perhaps there were more, but that's my assessment.

16 Q. And when you started off on the afternoon of 12 July, can you

17 briefly describe what happened and where you spent the night.

18 A. When we set off on the 12th of July, we went to a stream. There

19 were dead people at the first stream that we arrived is there. There was

20 a wounded man. He remained sitting there. He didn't ask for assistance

21 from anyone. We continued for as long as it was visible, and when it was

22 no longer possible to see anything, we decided to spend the night there.

23 Q. Do you know roughly where you were in terms of this column? At

24 the front, the middle, or the end?

25 A. At the end. I was in the last group that left.

1 Q. What happened on the morning of the 13th when you woke up?

2 A. When we woke up in the morning, my brother, who was with me, he

3 was no longer there. Some people were returning, coming back. Some

4 people going forward. I decided to move a little backwards. I saw a lot

5 of people going to the front. I went to the front. I saw my brother

6 there. He was sitting there with some other people. A short time had

7 passed, and Serbian soldiers started appealing to us to surrender. They

8 said that we had no other solution and that they were going to guarantee

9 our security.

10 They issued an ultimatum and said that we should surrender by

11 10.00. And if we did not do so, they said that they would attack us. We

12 didn't have any megaphones. People just shouted as loudly as we could.

13 They said, We will surrender, but you have to bring members of UNPROFOR

14 and the Red Cross if you want us to surrender. They didn't respond to

15 this at all. They only moved the deadline to 1500 hours. After 1500

16 hours, when it was almost 1500 hours, the people decided to surrender.

17 Q. Okay. And what did you do?

18 A. I and my brother also decided to surrender.

19 Q. And did you and your brother have any personal belongings or any

20 weapons with you at that time?

21 A. No, we only had our papers. We had some bags of little food.

22 Nothing else.

23 Q. So can you describe what happened, where you went to surrender?

24 A. We went in the direction of the road. I think it's a Muslim

25 village called Kamenica and we descended to a river. When we approached

1 the river, there was a little bridge there. The Serbian soldiers appeared

2 in front of us there. First of all, they asked us to give them money.

3 They mentioned German marks and dollars. And they said if we find that

4 anyone has money on them later, they will suffer the same fate as your

5 other people, the people who came before you. Then we went out on to the

6 road. We raised our hands. They ordered us to empty our pockets. We

7 didn't have cigarettes at the time. They just -- people just smoked

8 tobacco. A soldier said whoever smokes should take the tobacco. There

9 were children in buses passing by us. There were women who knew me

10 personally, women that I knew, too.

11 Q. Did you have personal belongings that you were carrying with you

12 at that time?

13 A. I had a bag and a little food and a coat or a jacket. Some people

14 might call it a jacket. They told us: "Throw it down. It will be passed

15 on to you."

16 Q. So what was in the bag that you threw down?

17 A. I had a hundred German marks and a hundred dollars in that coat.

18 And I had a little food, some tins and so on.

19 Q. And the Kamenica you were talking about, that's a different

20 Kamenica than the village you were born in, in the Zvornik Municipality.

21 Is that right?

22 A. No, that's a place called Pobudje in the municipality of Bratunac.

23 Q. Where did you go when you got down to this road and they took your

24 belongings?

25 A. We ran as far as a meadow where there were a lot of people, and

1 they forced us to sit down in rows. At that point, a Serbian soldier who

2 was standing by the personnel carrier with a red handkerchief, I don't

3 know what sort of insignia it had. As this group arrived, he said:

4 "Tomorrow you'll all be exchanged. The governments are involved in

5 negotiations concerning such exchanges."

6 Q. Did you know the area you were in at the time?

7 A. It was probably near Lolici or Sandici.

8 Q. Why do you say that?

9 A. Because I used to travel to Bratunac in peacetime.

10 Q. Okay. What else happened while you were in that meadow that

11 afternoon of 13 July?

12 A. Well, while we were in that meadow, this Serbian soldier who was

13 sitting on the personnel carrier said: "Don't make me kill you

14 immediately and be taken to The Hague straight away," the person with the

15 handkerchief who received us and told us that we would be exchanged. The

16 next group of soldiers who took over the shift, we were told that they

17 were Arkan's men. I didn't see any insignia. I wasn't able to look at

18 their insignia to see whether they were really Arkan's men or not, but

19 they were all wearing camouflage uniforms.

20 Q. Did you see any young people or girls in this crowd?

21 A. There was a woman and two girls. That woman had a 10-year-old

22 child. The child was perhaps 10 years old. She was wearing Muslim

23 clothes, and the man with the black scarf said: "There's a bus down

24 there. Go down to the bus." And when she got up, a very pretty girl who

25 was there, she was told that she should leave the pretty girl there. The

1 soldier said: "We need her." She left with those people, and they

2 perhaps let another ten boys go. The last person who got up, I didn't see

3 how big he was. He shouted to me: "Sit down, sit down. You can carry a

4 machine-gun." And he didn't let anyone else go.

5 Q. Just to make it clear, someone stood up and was told to sit down

6 again. Is that right?

7 A. Yes, that's right. Yes.

8 Q. And you also said some boys were allowed to go with the women. Do

9 you know roughly how old those boys were?

10 A. Well, they were perhaps between 10 and 14 years of age, perhaps

11 one of them was 15. They were just young boys. They were tall, but they

12 were young.

13 Q. Did you see anybody abused while you were on that meadow?

14 A. No, no one was.

15 Q. Did your captors give you any food while you were on that meadow?

16 A. No, they didn't give us food. They just brought some water, two

17 or three of our people who were prisoners, they would take water and bring

18 it to us.

19 Q. Were there wounded people on the meadow or injured people?

20 A. Yes, there were wounded people, and they were asking for help.

21 And they said: "If you've got something, you can tend to their wounds."

22 Some wounded were taken to a house. A person who was seriously wounded,

23 they said he should be taken to a newly built house. It was just a

24 brand-new house. It hadn't been finished yet.

25 Q. Do you know what happened to the wounded in the house?

1 A. I don't know. I don't know, but I know they were taken there to

2 that house. Nothing was heard. There were no shots heard or anything

3 like that, so I don't know.

4 Q. Did any senior officers come by the meadow while you were there?

5 A. Yes, General Mladic came.

6 Q. How did you know it was Mladic?

7 A. When Mladic came, it was nearly dark, nearly night. And until

8 that time, I hadn't seen him. I hadn't known him. The people who knew

9 him, they started shouting: "Here comes General Mladic." So when he

10 arrived, he greeted us, he said good evening, neighbours. He said that

11 governments were negotiating, and the next day we would be exchanged all

12 for all. We weren't given any dinner, only water. And when he said we

13 would all be exchanged, we applauded him, we all clapped and said: "Thank

14 you, Commander."

15 Q. And then what happened?

16 A. Afterwards, when Mladic left, then those Serb soldiers who told us

17 they were Arkan's men, they forced us to lay on the front and to shout

18 "long live the king."

19 Q. And then what?

20 A. Then they told us again: "Sit up." And then after that, they

21 started commanding first row, go into the vehicle, and so on, row by row.

22 People were running 10, 15 metres to the asphalt road to load the -- to go

23 into the vehicles, and there were vehicles that was also taking women and

24 children. As I was going on to a vehicle, it was a lorry trailer. I was

25 told to get on, and that's when I saw a Serb soldier who was wearing a

1 black fur cap with a cockade. It's a Serb cap. He said he would be going

2 with the drivers. Nobody was sitting on the trailer with us.

3 Q. Now, aside from the truck and trailer that you have just mentioned

4 that you got on, were there other vehicles for the other Muslim men there

5 also?

6 A. Yes, that's right. There were also buses and lorries and

7 trailers. These were long lorry trailers, and there were those without

8 trailers. We only saw that the next day when we were coming back from

9 Bratunac that there were such lorries there as well.

10 Q. All right. Could you tell that afternoon in Sandici roughly how

11 many other vehicles were there to transport the men from the meadow?

12 A. Well, I don't know how many vehicles there were now because as

13 vehicles arrived, they were filled up with people, and then they set off.

14 The next day, as we were leaving -- coming back from Bratunac, going to

15 Avdaga's field, that's when we went through there and we were able to see

16 the convoy. It was quite a long convoy, just vehicles one after another.

17 Q. Okay, we'll get to that soon. What direction were the vehicles

18 with the Muslim men going in?

19 A. In the direction of Bratunac.

20 Q. And can you describe the trailer that you got into, how big was

21 it?

22 A. Well, the trailer was quite long, perhaps 6 to 7 metres, with high

23 sides, which is probably used for mine ore to be transported so that --

24 for quite a large load. These were deep, high sides.

25 Q. Roughly how high were the sides in your view?

1 A. Well, at least a metre.

2 Q. Was there a roof on this trailer?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And so how were the other men assembled and placed in this

5 trailer?

6 A. We sat in three rows, two were sitting by the sides and one was in

7 the middle.

8 Q. And which row were you in?

9 A. I was somewhere to the left-hand side, almost on the last seat

10 next to the left side.

11 Q. And so when did your vehicle start to move?

12 A. Well, they started to move immediately, as soon as they were

13 loaded up. People were just running, then running on to vehicles, and

14 then vehicles would move off.

15 Q. And where did your vehicle go?

16 A. Bratunac.

17 Q. Do you know where it went in Bratunac?

18 A. I found out from a man who was with us in the same trailer, and he

19 was a driver by profession, when we arrived in Bratunac. It was already

20 dark. And he said: "These are Vihor's garages." According to my

21 estimate, on the left-hand side, there are buildings, like three-storey

22 buildings. And the right-hand side you couldn't see anything, whether it

23 was a field or something else. In any case, we didn't dare lift our heads

24 so that we were able to see above the side.

25 Q. So you stayed sitting in this trailer so you weren't able to see

1 over the edge?

2 A. Yes, that's right. Yes.

3 Q. Where you were stopped, were you able to see any sort of building?

4 A. You could see something in front, a building, perhaps about 30

5 metres, something like a garage. When they started taking people away,

6 then there were some shots because people were lifting their heads up, so

7 we didn't dare lift our heads up.

8 Q. So you didn't -- were the shots directed at people that would have

9 lifted their heads up or somewhere else?

10 A. No, no, they didn't use their shots to fire at people, at their

11 heads, but they would be hitting them with rifle butts if they lifted

12 their heads up.

13 Q. Okay. Can you -- were there any other buses or trucks parked

14 around your vehicle?

15 A. Yes. There were convoys, vehicles were to the right-hand side of

16 the road. There was certainly about five or six vehicles, if not more.

17 And how many vehicles were behind, it's impossible to know. Perhaps we

18 wouldn't even hear if they brought some vehicles in the convoy behind us.

19 You wouldn't hear when they were asking questions.

20 Q. How were you able to estimate this number of vehicles if you

21 couldn't see out of this trailer?

22 A. Well, because when we arrived there, they immediately started

23 asking about some villages around Srebrenica. First I heard Pusmulici,

24 Slatina, Potocari, Bljeceva, and Glogova. And perhaps they mentioned or

25 asked about another village, but I couldn't remember any more. These are

1 the five villages I heard asked about.

2 Q. First of all, who was asking about these villages?

3 A. These Serb soldiers that were next to the lorries and the buses.

4 Q. And who were they asking about these villages?

5 A. They asked the people who were captured. They asked us. They

6 asked our lorry as well. They went on to the flatbed and asked if there

7 was anyone from Srebrenica and so on.

8 Q. And could you hear anyone responding to these requests?

9 A. Yes, we did hear if they asked: "Is there anyone from such and

10 such a village?" If somebody said they were, then we would ask him about

11 his father's name, then he would be taken away. If he was taken to the

12 garage, the first thing you would hear would be a kind of blunt hit, and

13 then the person would start to shout, scream, and they would start

14 screaming: Stop, stop. And then you would hear a burst of fire, and then

15 that person would be silent, and that's what went on the whole night.

16 Q. What were you able to hear that allowed you to believe these

17 people were taken to this garage?

18 A. They forced them next to the lorries, and they were threatening

19 this person: "You will sing to us that whole cassette." I don't know

20 what this was all about. Whoever went passed a few minutes later, again

21 you would hear this thud, and that person would start screaming. Again,

22 there would be a burst of fire, and all would be quiet. So certainly that

23 person was executed.

24 Q. Was anyone taken out of your trailer that night?

25 A. No. In the course of the night, when one Serb soldier came to the

1 flatbed, said: "Is there anyone from Srebrenica, from the municipality of

2 Srebrenica." One person said: "I am." He was perhaps 55 years old. I

3 know his name and surname, because we knew each other from before in

4 Srebrenica. And they said: "From which villages are you?" And he said:

5 "I am from Ljeskovik." And they didn't touch him. They said sit down to

6 him.

7 Q. What was that man's name?

8 A. Suljo Abdic.

9 Q. Have you seen him since then?

10 A. No, he arrived in Grbavica, and that's where he ended up.

11 Q. Is that Grbavica or Grbavci?

12 A. Grbavci, the primary school at Grbavci.

13 Q. In the morning, was anyone taken off your bus -- excuse me, your

14 vehicle?

15 A. Yes, in the morning, when the dawn broke, they probably took two

16 people. One was perhaps 20 years old, the other one 35 years old. They

17 possibly knew them from before. One sat on the left-hand side near the

18 front of the trailer. They asked him his name, and he told the name. I

19 can't remember the name. And they told him to get off. And they took

20 somebody else from the right-hand side of the trailer, probably because

21 they knew them by sight. They were taken away, but nothing was heard

22 afterwards, no bursts of fire or shots or anything. What happened to

23 them, I have no idea.

24 Q. So what happened the next morning after this?

25 A. At that time when this happened, they first told us when lights

1 started, they said: "Don't let the civilians hear" so that -- probably so

2 the civilians wouldn't see what was going on. And then they said: "Now

3 they should be taken to Alija or Fikret and asked".

4 Q. Was there a man in your group named Mehmed Began that you've

5 mentioned before?

6 A. Yes, yes, there was this Mehmed Began. And when the two of us

7 went to the execution site, we were together in one lorry.

8 Q. And what was the next thing that happened that morning?

9 A. Then they ordered the lorries, and they turned, and we set off at

10 the exit at Bratunac. Again, they said: "Wait for UNPROFOR." They

11 stopped on the right-hand side of the road. And then that driver who was

12 driving us, he brought us water as well as a young man about 15 years of

13 age, a young boy who brought water. And he asked about a man called Ismet

14 Ramic. So they asked him: "Why are you asking about Ismet?" And this

15 young man said that it was his neighbour. This young man was very tall

16 and well built, although one could see that he was very young.

17 So he was bringing us water and we were on this lorry. And then

18 another lorry came up, a FAP 13 lorry which had been in Srebrenica which

19 had been taking food to Srebrenica to the people. And all older Serbs,

20 older than 60 and others, were in there. Some had old uniforms of the

21 previous army. It wasn't camouflage uniform, of the former army of the

22 former Yugoslav army, and some of them had also jackets. And when they

23 saw us on the lorries, because there was no tarpulin cover, they said:

24 "These ones are for us." I don't know what they meant. Perhaps they

25 were going to take it out on us.

1 Q. Now, the driver of your lorry gave you some water. Could you tell

2 if that driver was a military man or a civilian man?

3 A. No, it was a civilian man. No driver was in uniform. They were

4 all civilian lorries. There were buses from Centrotrans Company Sarajevo,

5 except they had registration number plates with Cyrillic alphabet on

6 them. That's the first time I saw it. I didn't know it existed in

7 Bosnia.

8 Q. Had anyone given the people in your trailer any water or any food

9 that night, that night of the 13th of July in Bratunac?

10 A. Nobody brought us water at night, or food, where we were parked in

11 front of that garage. They didn't bring us food; they didn't bring us

12 water.

13 Q. So what time did your vehicle finally leave the area, roughly?

14 A. Do you mean on the way out of Bratunac or in front of the garages?

15 Q. On the way out of Bratunac.

16 A. Well, we left possibly sometime between 10.00 and 12.00, because I

17 think we arrived down there maybe in early afternoon. And we only stopped

18 very briefly on the way. There was a lot of -- many hours were spent

19 standing, but I don't know how many because I didn't have a watch.

20 Q. And what direction did your vehicle go in?

21 A. In the direction of Konjevic Polje and Zvornik.

22 Q. How were you able to tell this from your position in this trailer?

23 A. Because as we were moving along, there were no soldiers around,

24 and we were able to observe a little more when we were moving rather than

25 when we were parked in front of the garages in Bratunac. So when we were

1 going on a hill, we were able to see around in the area because we were

2 born in the vicinity because we knew the area, and particularly when we

3 started going from Konjevic Polje to Zvornik, I knew that area fairly

4 well.

5 Q. There are large cliffs on the side of the road going from Konjevic

6 Polje towards the Drina River. Is that right?

7 A. That's right, yes, and tunnels.

8 Q. At some point you mentioned earlier, you were able to see a good

9 part of the convoy of vehicles. Where was that?

10 A. That was when we were going from Bratunac to Avdaga's field.

11 That's when you were able to see it because the vehicles were going from a

12 valley on to a hill so you were able to see the end of the previous

13 vehicle. So there were at least 30 vehicles moving along that road at

14 that time.

15 Q. And did you get to Zvornik?

16 A. Well, when we were going towards Zvornik, and then we left a

17 tunnel going towards Divic, one of us from the trailer, that there was a

18 UN APC that joined us in front of the Vidikovac Hotel. I didn't see it at

19 all until we got to the courtyard of that school in Grbavci.

20 Q. If you didn't see this UN APC at that point, how did you know

21 about it?

22 A. We were told by one of those men who saw this APC: "Join the

23 convoy."

24 Q. One of the people in your trailer?

25 A. Yes, that's right, yes.

1 Q. And can you describe the direction you took as you went through

2 Zvornik.

3 A. When we went through Zvornik, we went to Karakaj, and then from

4 Karakaj we turned left towards Tuzla. And we were driving along perhaps 8

5 to 10 kilometres, and vehicles started going in the right direction.

6 Because as we were setting off from Zvornik, I was thinking about what

7 General Mladic had said, that we would all be exchanged. But when it went

8 to the right-hand side, I had different thoughts then.

9 Q. What were your different thoughts?

10 A. Immediately I thought that the exchange wouldn't go ahead because

11 in the direction we were going on, that was Krizevici, and that was Muslim

12 territory. It had been Muslim territory. It was all torched. People

13 were expelled, so there could have been no exchange done there.

14 Q. Did you know that area well that you were going towards?

15 A. Yes, quite well, because at that time I was going in the direction

16 of Krizevici, and I had had some relatives in a village near Krizevici.

17 Q. What village were your relatives in?

18 A. The village of Motovo.

19 Q. Where did your vehicle go?

20 A. It turned towards Krizevici, and then the vehicle stopped. And

21 when we stopped near that courtyard where the school was, there were

22 already vehicles that were being unloaded. And that's when I saw the

23 Centrotrans bus, and that's when I saw Centrotrans Company just like it

24 was before the war, expect the number plates were with a double S in

25 Cyrillic letters. And that's when I saw on one vehicle Zvornik number

1 plates, again ZV with Cyrillic characters; and then I saw a Visegrad bus,

2 except that where it said Visegrad, something was scratched. So that APC,

3 that UN APC which was at the entrance to the courtyard, it was to the

4 left, and it didn't say UNPROFOR, but there were just one letter, either C

5 or S, but perhaps since they were using Cyrillic, it was probably an S.

6 There were two soldiers in uniform, in UNPROFOR uniform, and there was one

7 civilian, but they all had automatic rifles. And these were all Yugoslav

8 rifles made by the Zastava Company from Kragujevac. So these soldiers,

9 they were not what they appeared to be.

10 Q. Did you know what community you were in where this school was that

11 you got dropped off at?

12 A. I knew this was municipality of Zvornik because I knew that area.

13 I was going through to Tuzla and Krizevici. I had been there several

14 times to see my relatives and so on.

15 Q. I think you mentioned the name of a village earlier that you

16 were -- where the school was. Do you recall that?

17 A. The village of Grbavci.

18 Q. Is Grbavci anywhere near Orahovac?

19 A. Yes, I think that's one local commune.

20 Q. And what happened when you got out of your truck? You have

21 described to us what you saw. But what did you do?

22 A. At that time, when I ran out, when I was leaving that lorry, we

23 were all forced to run towards the entrance of the school. And the

24 entrance to the school was from the upper side, so you would just go

25 straight round to the door. I had a leather jacket and one Serb soldier

1 was in front of the door. And he said: "Take your jacket off." So I

2 threw it. It was quite a large pile of clothes which people threw who had

3 gone into the school before me.

4 Q. How many Serb soldiers did you see around that school?

5 A. Well, in the yard, there were at least 30. They were wearing

6 police uniforms and camouflage uniforms.

7 Q. And can you describe where you -- what part of the school you and

8 the others went into.

9 A. When I arrived at the school, the hall was half full. And I got

10 in somewhere around the southern part, perhaps around the centre of the

11 school. And up to about halfway through the hall, there were elderly

12 people, there were people at least 60, 70 years old, and there were

13 perhaps some people who were younger than that.

14 Q. And after you went in, did people keep arriving and coming in

15 also, or were you the last group?

16 A. Yes, people kept arriving for at least another 15 to 20 minutes,

17 until the hall was full.

18 Q. How many people -- what's your estimate of how many Muslims were

19 in this hall?

20 A. At least a thousand people.

21 Q. And what kind of a hall was it? What was it used for normally?

22 A. Well, it was a sports hall.

23 Q. And what happened in that -- well, I'm sorry, let me ask you how

24 full was this sports hall or gym?

25 A. Perhaps a metre, a metre to 2 metres was empty. There were four

1 children who were sitting in it. They were kept separate from us.

2 Q. And about how long were you in that gym until people started being

3 taken out?

4 A. I don't know. About four or five hours. All I know is that we

5 were there for a long time. It was very hot. People would faint. They

6 felt bad. They would give us a little water. But there were so many

7 people that it was impossible for even a small number of them to quench

8 their thirst because it was impossible to give enough water to even one

9 row of people, given the demand for water that there was.

10 Q. Were you given any food?

11 A. No, no one provided us with food of any kind, not at any time.

12 Q. Any medical assistance?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Were there any soldiers in that gym with you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did anybody complain about all this?

17 A. Yes. One person complained a bit. He was slapped about. I don't

18 know what he requested. He was the first person near the door.

19 Q. And then what happened to him?

20 A. Nothing happened to him. They just slapped him. But something

21 else happened later on when another person appeared, but I don't want to

22 go into this now. If you would like me to, just say so.

23 Q. If you could -- you can just tell us briefly what happened to that

24 second person that you're talking about. Tell us who that person was.

25 Was he Muslim? Was he Serb?

1 A. They were all Muslims.

2 Q. So can you -- are you able to tell us what happened to him?

3 A. Well, it happened later on when an order was issued to line us up,

4 to have us turn our backs to the door, to face the sides, et cetera. But

5 at that time, nothing happened.

6 Q. When did something happen?

7 A. When some officers from the command came. I don't know who they

8 were. The people were loud, they started shouting. They said: "Stop,"

9 and the people were silent. And then they ordered four rows at the end of

10 the gym to stand up. These were the elderly people. They stood up. They

11 said: "Turn your faces towards the wall and have your backs facing the

12 exit." And then they ordered another four rows to do this, and ordered

13 them to have their backs to each other, their backs towards the door.

14 When it was my turn, they ordered us to have our backs facing the exit,

15 because there was a uniformed woman there and two soldiers. The woman was

16 not carrying weapons, but the soldiers did have weapons.

17 After they had lined us all up in this manner, then one person to

18 the right of the gym said, a Muslim who was captured, he said: "These

19 people must not be killed." And then one of the Serbian soldiers at the

20 door, he was between 20 and 25 years old, he was a young man. He said:

21 "Who says so?" This man repeated the same words, he said: "These people

22 must not be killed." He was about 35 years old. He was wearing black

23 trousers and a white shirt. And he said: "Stand up." The person who

24 just said that these people should not be killed should stand up. He

25 stood up and headed towards the door. There were perhaps ten people at

1 the door. They took him outside. And then a shot was heard. The man

2 started groaning. He had probably been wounded. The wound was probably

3 not fatal. You heard a shot again, and then there was silence. They took

4 a young man out. He was near the door. I don't know why they took him

5 out. You heard a shot -- you could hear a shot and then you no longer

6 hear him any more. And then they forbade to have water, perhaps for an

7 hour or so, in order to prevent anyone from seeing this. And later on,

8 they brought us water again.

9 Q. Can you describe the process that began when they started taking

10 people out of the gym.

11 A. Well, when they wanted to take people out, there was an exit on

12 the southern side. When we arrived there, there were some sort of

13 obstacles that had been set up there, some sort of wooden fence. And

14 before they took us out -- before they started taking us out, they brought

15 in a lot of rags which they used to blindfold people. And this is what

16 they did to the first people, and then they designated one or two men from

17 among us to blindfold people. The people used this exit to leave, and

18 they were told to remain standing there. Then this woman in uniform gave

19 everyone a glass of water. And at that point, a soldier with a red beret

20 and a cross and with four S's appeared, he didn't threaten us. He didn't

21 say anything. He was probably the person who took people away to that

22 location. People started asking him: "Where are you taking these

23 people?" Because quite a large number of people had left. They said:

24 "We're taking them to a camp." No one asked any more questions. Nothing

25 else was heard in that hall.

1 And then they shouted to us: "You all have to leave."

2 Q. Were you eventually taken out and given a blindfold and a cup of

3 water?

4 A. They blindfolded us in the gym, and then you would leave by that

5 exit. It was possible to see a little because we weren't that well

6 blindfolded. You would have to pass by that woman, and she would give

7 everyone a glass of water. She gave me a glass of water, too, that water

8 was very precious to us because it was very hot and who gave you water was

9 not important. No one asked for bread, but people did ask for water. If

10 there had been enough water, I don't know how much we would have been able

11 to drink. When it was my turn, I got into the lorry. It was a TAM

12 lorry. I know such lorries very well. I took the blindfold off. My

13 neighbours also did this. I saw Mehmed Began, and we took the blindfolds

14 off until the lorry left. We sat down. There were two benches. I was

15 the second or third person from the cabin, and once the benches were full,

16 people would sit down between the benches. I estimate that there were

17 about 30 men in each lorry, 30 men who left at a time.

18 Q. Could you tell where your TAM truck went?

19 A. When they started driving us away, I knew where they took us to.

20 I didn't know if we were going ahead or backwards, but I think that we

21 turned left. We went down the dirt road for a short while, and then we

22 stopped. We kept our blindfolds on naturally. As soon as the lorry

23 stopped, we heard people talking. They said: "Get off." We got off the

24 lorry. I saw a dead man in front of me. They lined us up. I don't know

25 how they did so because we couldn't see whether we were in two rows or in

1 one row. It must have been one row because it's impossible to shoot at

2 two rows. You could hear a burst of fire from the right --

3 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt, but how were you able to see a dead man on

4 the ground when you got off the truck?

5 A. Well, looking in front of me, I saw him. I couldn't see him in

6 front of me, but when I looked down, I saw a dead man.

7 Q. So you were able to look down under your blindfold?

8 A. Yes, in front of my feet by looking towards the ground, not by

9 looking in front of me.

10 Q. Okay, so you were describing what happened as you were standing in

11 a line there with your fellows.

12 A. Yes. Then there was a burst of fire from the right. People fell

13 to the left like this. I was toppled over by the other people. My right

14 arm remained on his chest, and then the shooting came to an end. And then

15 one person came forward and shot at each person individually. I had a

16 little wound here. It must have been caused by a stone on the ground.

17 Q. When you say -- you're pointing to your hand. Is that right?

18 A. Yes, here on my hand. The shooting stopped. I came to the

19 conclusion that I hadn't been hit by a bullet because I didn't feel any

20 terrible pain. And then the Serbian soldiers who had carried out this

21 killing said: "Let's take their watches so that we have something for

22 beer." One of them then cried out: "We won't do so." In fact, I didn't

23 even have a watch. But before that, someone who had been shot said:

24 "Finish me off," and this man said: "Slowly, slowly."

25 Q. Who said "slowly, slowly"?

1 A. One of those Serbian soldiers who had shot the people.

2 Q. So what happened after that, after everyone that you were with and

3 you were shot and you're lying there in that place?

4 A. I remained lying there on my stomach, and then you could hear the

5 sound of a lorry again. Each time it appeared, it would go a little

6 further away from us. And then naturally you would hear shooting again,

7 and this continued until dark. And then all the Serbian soldiers

8 gathered. And after a long period of time, I took the blindfold off. And

9 to the left of me, I could see an excavator digging. It was on the

10 opposite side of us. It was digging. They had gathered at that location

11 later. And then a colleague of mine who worked with me in the firm, Gojko

12 Simic, he said: "If one of them now utters something, I'll kiss him." He

13 thought that perhaps no one was alive anywhere. And then they said:

14 "Let's go to the meadow to kill the people." And then the person who was

15 using the excavator to dig told them: "If you go, if you leave, I'll turn

16 the machine off."

17 And Gojko Simic then said: "Collect your ammunition; let's go

18 down to the meadow" and he left those three soldiers there.

19 Q. Okay. How did you know that this person was Gojko Simic? How did

20 you recognise the person?

21 A. Well, I worked with him. We had known each other for 15 to 20

22 years. I know how he speaks because when I heard him, it seemed to me as

23 if we had parted on that day. That was the extent to which his voice was

24 familiar to me. But they also used the names Gojko, Vojo, Risto, and they

25 also used the nickname of one of the men, but I can't remember the

1 nickname.

2 Q. Did you ever see Gojko Simic's face that night in that field?

3 A. No, I only saw them standing there in a group, in the dark.

4 Q. And how long were you able to listen to his voice and people call

5 him "Gojko"?

6 A. Well, for about five or six minutes. Because they were in a

7 hurry, they were probably in a hurry to kill the people who had been shot

8 in that meadow, to finish them off.

9 Q. So did you ever tell any investigator that you saw Gojko Simic's

10 face or that you recognised his face that night?

11 A. No, I never said that. I recognised his voice, and I recognised

12 the names that they used to call each other.

13 Q. So if that was in a report, that would be a mistake?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honours, I have probably another 10 minutes

16 with this witness.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, could we finish this witness. Then we'll have

18 the break so that you have the intact testimony.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.

20 Q. Now, you've said you've seen an excavator?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you see any other heavy equipment while you were at this site?

23 A. Well, afterwards, a loader appeared. It had its lights on. And

24 it directed its lights at all of us. In the meantime, there was a man who

25 was even closer to the loader. He was scared. He was worried that the

1 loader would kill those people. He went into the woods to the left of

2 me. And at that point, the Serbian soldiers shouted out

3 "look, someone is going into the woods." And they started shooting. And

4 as this person turned the loader around to direct its lights at him, I

5 moved, and then they said: "Look, we've got the man, he's fleeing." He

6 turned the loader around in order to direct the lights at the person who

7 was fleeing. I was lucky to turn in the opposite direction at that time,

8 and I moved by crawling forward. I looked towards the people who were

9 firing at the person who had fled into the woods. No one turned in my

10 direction. I saw that there were stones they used for laying railway

11 tracks, and I jumped and you could hear the stones. You could hear the

12 sound that the stones made. I came across the railway tracks. I crossed

13 over to the other side. There was a meadow in which there was corn. I

14 ran into the meadow, and then fell down and crawled forward and got out of

15 the cornfield. I then hid behind some sort of a bush. I heard the sound

16 of a stream, but I didn't see the stream.

17 While I was running, the Serbian soldiers fired, but I didn't feel

18 any bullets. While I was hiding in the cornfield, they opened fire

19 shortly. They spoke a bit, and then returned. The shooting continued in

20 the meadow. And after a while, I don't know how long, the shooting

21 stopped and I didn't know where to go. I was afraid to stand up. I was

22 afraid that they would see me or hear me.

23 Then I decided to go through the cornfield because it was near the

24 river. I got to the meadow which was near the cornfield. If I turned

25 right, I'd be going to the same place. If I turned left -- I turned left

1 and got to the railway track. And as I followed the railway track, I

2 arrived at a railway station. It was open. I approached the door. No

3 one was there. But I could see a village down below. And as I knew that

4 the railway track went in the direction of Tuzla, I returned again and got

5 to the meadow where the people had been killed. There was water which was

6 flowing by the road. Those people had been killed. The moon was out, so

7 it was visible. You could hear nothing. There were quite a lot of people

8 who had been killed there. One of them was about 10 metres from the

9 others and had -- seemed to be alive, but it was difficult to tell. I was

10 wondering where to go. I couldn't find my bearings. It was dark --

11 Q. Let me ask you something. Was this field that was full of dead

12 people, was that the same field that you were shot at, or was that another

13 field?

14 A. Another field. I was in another field. That's the field where

15 people were killed.

16 Q. Were they close by each other, these two fields?

17 A. Yes, maybe 2 or 300 metres.

18 Q. Okay. Now I'm going to ask you some questions about some heavy

19 equipment.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if I could get some help with the ELMO and...

21 Q. Were you in my office this morning, and were you able to pick out

22 a drawing of an excavator?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. I'm giving you the Exhibit Number 1656. If we could put that on

25 this little ELMO machine so that it can be shown to the public.

1 A. This is a kind of excavator. But this excavator had wheels,

2 whereas this one here is on caterpillars.

3 Q. So the one you saw that night was similar to this, but instead of

4 caterpillar tracks, it had wheels?

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. Okay. Also in my office, were you able to pick out a picture of a

7 loader?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. I'm giving you 63A.

10 A. This is a kind of loader. It's a machine that can only load

11 material that has already been processed.

12 Q. Is this machine in this exhibit similar to the one you saw that

13 night at the execution field?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. All right.

16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And to clarify the record, Your Honour, the

17 previous exhibit of the excavator was Exhibit 62. 65 ter number 1656.

18 Okay, thanks. That's it.

19 Q. In 1999, were you able to go back with Mr. Jean Rene Ruez to this

20 area and find the execution fields?

21 A. Yes, I was.

22 Q. And were those the same -- are you sure those are the same -- the

23 same execution field that you experienced on July 14th?

24 A. Yes, they were, because when I arrived at the spot, that night my

25 eyes were blindfolded. When I fled, I didn't know it was near the

1 flyover. But when I got to the railway track, well the railway track

2 can't be so elevated unless there is a sort of flyover for passenger

3 vehicles. And when I ran into the cornfield, it hadn't been -- you could

4 recognise the corn, but the wind had affected some of the vegetation

5 there.

6 Q. And did you go with Mr. Ruez to the actual school and the gym that

7 you had been kept?

8 A. Yes. But it was empty. They hadn't done anything. You could see

9 the traces of bullets, the entrance they used to take us out, and where

10 they parked the TAM lorry, it had been built up. It hadn't been plastered

11 over. Everything was as it was before but there were no people there.

12 Q. When you say "traces of bullets," I didn't ask you about the

13 shooting at the gym. Can you tell us a bit about shooting.

14 A. Well, when we were in the hall, the people asked for water a lot.

15 They would get excited. And those young Serbian soldiers, they threatened

16 us. They would open fire -- they would fire at the walls and the ceiling

17 to stop the people from making such a noise.

18 Q. I don't want to ask you to explain the details of your escape for

19 the next many days. But is it fair to say that you were, after great

20 hardship in the woods, able to escape to the free territory?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll have our break for 30 minutes. We'll

24 resume at quarter to 1.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

1 --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination, Mr. Karnavas?

3 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Your Honour. No cross-examination.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness. I will try and ask you

8 some questions taking as a starting point the testimony that you gave

9 today in chief. You said in your testimony of today that that night,

10 after you surrendered, the night between the 13th and the 14th of July,

11 you said that you spent it in that lorry in Bratunac.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And that after the first hours of the morning, you set off,

14 stopped at the periphery of Bratunac.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. May I say that it is also correct what you repeated, that there at

17 the periphery, at the outskirts of Bratunac, you stopped and you heard

18 there was talk about waiting for the UNPROFOR vehicle.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did that UNPROFOR vehicle arrive at the outskirts there?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Is that correct that --

23 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stojanovic, we have plenty of time. There's no

24 hurry. Wait until the witness answers his question.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

1 Q. Is it true to say that after a few times that you stopped, you got

2 to Divic where again you observed or heard that the vehicle with UN

3 registration plates was approaching?

4 A. We stopped for very brief periods of times, but when we left the

5 tunnel from which it was possible to see the Vidikovac Hotel in Divic,

6 that one of the captured people, one of us detainees said there's the APC

7 UN transporter that's joining the convoy.

8 Q. Does that mean that it had moved before Divic or at Divic

9 Vidikovac Hotel?

10 A. They said that that's where it joined, but I didn't see it until

11 it got to the schoolyard.

12 Q. Because we both know the area as we come from there, for the Trial

13 Chamber, could you confirm that it is true that the Vidikovac Motel is

14 located before the entrance to Zvornik when you're going from the Bratunac

15 direction?

16 A. Yes, it's right at the entrance to Divic. First there is the

17 motel, and then Zvornik starts.

18 Q. So it's correct that first you see the Vidikovac Motel, and then

19 you go further?

20 A. Yes.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

22 JUDGE LIU: Microphone, please. Your microphone, please. Yes.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Can you say that you know where in Zvornik the Standard factory is

25 located?

1 A. The Standard factory is located in the direction of Karakaj. I

2 think that it's either before the crossroads. I think it was to the

3 right-hand side, but I think it's after Karakaj, the standard company.

4 Q. Is Standard located on the right-hand side going in the direction

5 that you were coming from?

6 A. I'm not quite clear about that because I don't know the Standard

7 factory that well. I'm not quite sure whether it's on the right or the

8 left-hand side but I think it's after the crossroads as you go towards

9 Tuzla. But I know that there was another factory which was on the

10 right-hand side before the crossroads.

11 Q. And can you recall whether in that part of Zvornik which is called

12 Karakaj, that convoy, was it stopping?

13 A. No. No, it was going left in the direction of Tuzla.

14 Q. Thank you. You said today that in the sports hall, you saw on the

15 right-hand side as you entered the hall four young boys.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Is it correct or am I to assume that it is true that these boys

18 were between 10 and 14 years of age?

19 A. One of them was very small. I think he was about 10. I think in

20 my estimate these boys were between 10 and 14 years of age.

21 Q. You were speaking about that and what later happened to those

22 boys.

23 A. Those four boys, when I arrived at the free territory in the

24 village of Nezuk, I asked the people if they had seen these four children

25 released. And then they said that they were released, and that these

1 people were well treated. I don't know about these children today, but I

2 know that they did get to the free territory.

3 Q. Thank you. I would now like to go and speak about the engines

4 that we spoke about today. Considering you were a construction worker,

5 you probably know the difference between an excavator and loader?

6 A. Yes. You can ask what you want.

7 Q. So a loader can load and it can also gather?

8 A. Yes, for instance, the loader is --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to slow down.

10 JUDGE LIU: Witness, I understand that you're eager to help us by

11 giving your evidence. But whatever you say will be translated into the

12 other two languages. I hope you could make a pause after hearing the

13 question put forward by the Defence counsel.

14 And also, Mr. Stojanovic, I hope you could look at the screen in

15 front of you. When you saw a full stop there, you may begin your next

16 question. Because I've found that they were about two sentences behind

17 you.

18 Yes, Witness, you may answer that question, please.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you please repeat the question.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. This difference that you spoke about, about the functions of the

22 loader which is used to load and gather.

23 A. Yes, I worked in the construction company and it happened

24 occasionally. Then when a loader is collecting some heap, what happened

25 is that it was gathering some things that could fall off. It's not really

1 for small rubble. It's only because its scoop has got some -- a serrated

2 ridge, so a smaller part can fall through that.

3 Q. Is it correct to say, then, that an excavator is what is used to

4 dig?

5 A. Yes, that's for digging.

6 Q. And loader is for gathering, collecting?

7 A. I don't know what that loader came to do, what this intention was,

8 whether it's to gather. An excavator can also gather, collect, but not as

9 much as a loader. It came to collect the bodies, but I'm not quite sure

10 about that.

11 Q. You said that this excavator that you saw had wheels.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is it in a -- is it such a vehicle that can drive very fast, or is

14 it slow?

15 A. Well, it's slow. All construction machines, vehicles, are slow,

16 even if they have wheels, they are slow when they go on the road. Mostly

17 if they have wheels, if they have tyres, we know that because in

18 construction companies sometimes you have to even put wooden planks on the

19 asphalt in order not to -- not to damage the asphalt if you had a traction

20 track, so they can be even slower than those with wheels.

21 Q. Am I to conclude just because excavators are slow, the way they

22 are used, they are transported to the location where they are used?

23 A. No, that doesn't have to be the case. If they're going 50

24 kilometres, then maybe, yes. But if they are just going for 10

25 kilometres, that's not needed. In other words, if they are going to very

1 larger locations, then they came on trailers. But they only came from

2 Zvornik.

3 Q. Thank you. I'd just like to ask you one more time to tell me, am

4 I correct in thinking that today you testified that this location was

5 being lit up by the machine called loader?

6 A. It was night when the loader came. And when these soldiers were

7 there, they were talking to each other, and I didn't hear what they were

8 talking about. In the meantime, one of the people who had been executed

9 was alive, and he jumped up and he started running towards the wood. And

10 when they started shooting, that's why they have put the lights on of the

11 vehicle. What he was doing, he was lighting -- he was putting these

12 lights on in order to see where this man had escaped and not to shed the

13 light on us lying there.

14 Q. So it's correct that it was the loader that was shedding the

15 light?

16 A. Yes. When that man escaped, the lights, the headlights, were

17 turned towards him escaping. As he was fleeing, it shed light on the

18 woods so that the soldiers could see where he had escaped.

19 Q. Thank you. Did you see at all that the excavator had headlights?

20 A. Yes, it did have lights, but they were turned opposite, the

21 opposite side of us. We didn't -- there was no light from that excavator

22 falling on us at all. It was in the opposite direction.

23 Q. So there were no headlights from the excavator on you?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. Thank you. In this situation, was it possible for you to see the

1 driver of either one or the other vehicle?

2 A. No, I didn't see them. I only heard them talking as the machines

3 were working. Machine must have come before they started work because as

4 soon as I took my blindfold off, I could see the machine was working.

5 Q. Am I to conclude that it is pointless to ask whether the driver

6 was in civilian or in uniform?

7 A. I don't know. It was a civilian loader, not a military loader.

8 That's all I know, because it was -- its colour was yellow.

9 Q. Thank you. Today you mentioned that you saw two machines, a

10 loader and excavator. Is it possible that there was another excavator

11 that was there that was not being used?

12 A. No, I didn't see that.

13 Q. Does it mean when you say that you didn't see it, that perhaps it

14 existed but you didn't see it?

15 A. I didn't see it. I can't say it was there. I only saw what I

16 saw, the excavator and the loader. That's what was working while I was

17 there.

18 Q. Thank you. Did you perhaps see during that time, before you

19 managed to escape into the cornfield and the woods, did you see some men

20 that were burying the dead?

21 A. They were not burying them then, no, not at all.

22 Q. Thank you. Am I correct in thinking that you didn't see anyone

23 else who was burying people?

24 A. No, no one was being buried then. No.

25 Q. Thank you. And just one more thing to clarify from today's

1 testimony: The question of the Prosecutor, you said that you heard the

2 excavator's driver say among the people, among whom you recognised the

3 voice of Gojko Simic, said that: "If you leave, I'll switch the engine

4 off."

5 A. Yes, that's correct that he said that.

6 Q. Is that something that he said because he was afraid?

7 A. Probably because he was afraid, but he said: "If you leave, I'll

8 switch off the engine," and then Gojko Simic said to the others: "Gather

9 the ammunition and let's go to the meadow that had been mown," and there

10 were only three men left at the time.

11 Q. And just one more thing to clarify: Am I correct in assuming that

12 on the 3rd of September, 1997, you gave a statement to the agency for

13 information and intelligence, the AID?

14 A. Which date was it?

15 Q. 3rd of September, 1997.

16 A. I don't know. When I was giving the statement, that's hard to

17 say. If there is my signature, then I agree with that statement, but I

18 didn't write down these dates when I was giving the statement. So it is

19 possible that I did give the statement. I stand by it. If the signature

20 is there, then I agree with that statement.

21 Q. Perhaps I should rephrase the question because the date isn't

22 important. Did you give a statement to the AID Tuzla sector?

23 A. I don't think so. I gave the only statement to the Tuzla before

24 the statement I gave that came here, that was to the Tuzla court. That's

25 the only statement I gave. But I think there should be a Judge's

1 signature as well.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have the witness's

3 statement, the one I received from the Prosecutor, but it's in B/C/S, and

4 I wanted to show this statement to the witness to ask him if this is his

5 signature.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the signature is mine, if that

9 is the statement I gave. See, I went to the police. I don't know what

10 AID is. I don't know what AID is. Yes, it is my signature. Yes, it's my

11 signature. And as far as the statement is concerned, it should be my

12 signature. But I don't know. What is AID? Nobody told me that -- what

13 AID was. I don't recall giving such small statements.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may, Your Honour, ask

15 another question.

16 Q. Up in the corner, you will see "AID," that's for investigation and

17 information.

18 A. Yes, that is the agency for investigation and information, yes. I

19 can see it, but you see I haven't remembered the dates. I didn't know it

20 was the AID. I don't understand that. But as far as signature is

21 concerned, it is my signature.

22 Q. Thank you. And just one more question: Did you perhaps give any

23 other statements to this service since then to date?

24 A. I don't know. No, I don't think so. I only know that this

25 statement that I gave the Tuzla court and this main statement, perhaps

1 somebody may have asked me some questions, but I don't recall giving other

2 statements.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have no further

4 questions, and we also thank the witness. If we asked some difficult

5 questions, it wasn't our intention to be difficult.

6 JUDGE LIU: Any re-examination?

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 Well, at this stage, are there any documents to tender,

10 Mr. McCloskey?

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I have the Exhibit Number 62,

12 which is the picture of what has been described as an excavator. And I

13 have the Exhibit 63A which has been described as a loader which is the

14 picture we've shown the witness, both in my office and in Court. And you

15 will notice that we photocopied the left-hand corner off it so you

16 couldn't see the title of this machine for his identification.

17 Just to have the record complete, I would also like Exhibit 63,

18 which is the complete picture of this loader. And I would point out for

19 the Court that the term "loader" as it was used yesterday by yesterday's

20 witness is the B/C/S term Uto --

21 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I'm going to object. Mr. McCloskey is

22 testifying at this moment. That evidence has not come through a witness.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey, there's no need for you to tell us

24 what it says in the B/C/S.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I'm just trying to sort out this

1 particular issue by making a brief reference to yesterday, which is not

2 really in conflict.

3 JUDGE LIU: You could point on this photo where that word is.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, it's up in the left-hand corner. It's the

5 part that was photocopied away from the document. And this is Exhibit 63.

6 JUDGE LIU: Any objections? Mr. Karnavas.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, just a technical matter, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: I would appreciate in the future maybe they could

10 ask the gentleman, for instance, what is the word, and we can get it that

11 way just so we have a clear record.

12 Secondly, again, a technical matter, I think it would be a better

13 practice to have the witness identify -- describe a particular object, for

14 instance, and then perhaps in court be shown a series of different

15 photographs from which to pick, as opposed to showing them one photograph,

16 which is awfully suggestive, and say is this what you mean by loader? And

17 there's no other option. And I'm sure that that's not the intention of

18 the Prosecutor, especially with this particular gentleman who seems to be

19 very well acquainted with these sorts of machinery. But just for the

20 future purposes, I think we could, you know, have a cleaner record that

21 way, and I would not have an anxiety attack every time something like this

22 comes in.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, it depends on specific situations. It seems

24 that we should go through an identification procedure on all those

25 subjects. It depends on the specific situations. Yes.

1 Any objections, Mr. Stojanovic?

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, thank you very much. So these three

4 documents are admitted into the evidence.

5 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming here to help us by

6 giving your evidence. We all wish you good luck in the future and wish

7 you a pleasant journey back home. Madam Usher will show you out of the

8 room.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE LIU: Mr. McCloskey, where are we now? Are we going to hear

12 the next witness? Or maybe you could leave it until tomorrow.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think given the overall situation, the witness

14 may take a little longer than we have left and go into tomorrow anyway.

15 And that witness is tired. And so given all that, I think that's the best

16 suggestion.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. So today we will break earlier. And then

18 tomorrow morning at 9.00, we'll hear the next witness in this courtroom.

19 Is that agreeable? Yes, Mr. Karnavas?

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

22 Mr. Stojanovic?

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, we fully accept. Thank you.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. So we'll break now, and we will

25 resume tomorrow morning, 9.00.

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.14 p.m.,

2 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of

3 July, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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