Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3099

1 Monday, 20 October 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-02-60-T, The Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

9 Good morning, everybody. Welcome back to this case. Before we

10 have the next witness, there's some procedural matters I would like to

11 discuss with the parties. On the 16th October 2003, the Prosecution filed

12 a motion for leave to ask leading questions of adverse witnesses if

13 necessary. We haven't received any response from the Defence team.

14 Because the time is too short, and we have to move on, I guess that all

15 the parties has already received that motion already. So I would like to

16 spend some time to discuss it before we hear the next witness.

17 Mr. Waespi, would you please brief us about the contents of that

18 motion, please, in a very concise way.

19 MR. WAESPI: Good morning, Mr. President. The senior trial

20 attorney will deal with this issue.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, Mr. McCloskey.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, good morning, Mr. President. This motion was

23 really meant just to be a guideline of what is typically common-law

24 adversarial process. In the event that the witnesses appear to be going

25 in an adverse direction or appear to be arguing with the Prosecution or,

Page 3100

1 as we've described, get sort of legally hostile to the Prosecution, it is

2 our intention to not ask leading questions in the beginning and go through

3 the witness as we would normally. And if it becomes apparent that the

4 witness is not cooperative or appears to be adverse to what they have said

5 before or adverse in some other way, then we were -- would ask leave of

6 Court to ask leading questions if necessary.

7 We want to avoid leading questions if at all possible. But

8 sometimes, with an adverse witness, it's really the only way to get to the

9 point, as the Court is aware of, in cross-examination. It really -- it

10 becomes a situation where the Prosecution ends up cross-examining their

11 own witness. We hope that doesn't happen. But given where these

12 witnesses are coming from and their potential involvement in the case, we

13 just thought it would be realistic that -- to be ready for that

14 possibility. And as such, we wanted to give the Court a little legal

15 background in some national jurisdictions that deal with this.

16 So our -- in the event that there's a problem, our first wish

17 would be to try to refresh the recollection of the witness by letting them

18 read the material to themselves. If that doesn't seem to work, then we

19 would ask the Court if we could go into the more adversarial role of

20 asking leading questions. That's what that's about.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Any response, Mr. Karnavas?

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning, Your Honours. I did receive the

23 motion. I am quite familiar with the concept. It's Anglo-Saxon. In fact

24 all the jurisdictions cited are all former colonies of Great Britain. I

25 don't have any objections to this. There seems to be two distinctions,

Page 3101

1 however, one is refreshing the memory, the other one is asking leading

2 questions of a witness who is called by one party and then is

3 uncooperative, or hostile, as the case may be. Obviously, if a

4 Prosecution's witness, even if not hostile, forgets or misstates something

5 that they have said in their statement, obviously the Prosecution or

6 either party can refresh the memory of the witness by pointing to a

7 particular document.

8 With respect to treating a witness as a hostile witness for the

9 purposes of asking leading questions, usually it's a two-step process.

10 First, there has to be a demonstration that the witness is unwilling to be

11 cooperative. Secondly, they must ask permission from the Trial Chamber to

12 declare the witness hostile. Once that's done, then obviously they can

13 proceed. Had this been brought to my attention without a motion, I would

14 have agreed to it. So I commend the Prosecution for writing this

15 excellent motion on the concept, but I think in the future, we can resolve

16 some of these, and then orally bring them up to the Court's attention.

17 But I have no objections.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Mr. Stojanovic.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I received this

20 motion from my locker. I took it from my locker yesterday, since I have

21 been away for a few days. And I can just say a few sentences: In the

22 jurisdiction I come from this situation simply is not provided for under

23 the law, because asking leading questions is simply not allowed. But in

24 few of the facts that the Prosecutor has stated and in view of the

25 information we have about which witnesses are coming to us and the

Page 3102

1 significance of their testimony for our defence, the testimony of

2 Lieutenant Colonel Dragan Jokic, we, as his Defence, have no problems with

3 the intention and the wish of the Prosecutor with the permission of the

4 Chamber to ask leading questions.

5 I think that perhaps it would be good, since the Chamber will be

6 making a decision on this, to also, according to the principle of

7 reciprocity, to allow us also if we should find ourself in the same

8 situation, if this happens during our presentation of the case, if you

9 would also allow us to ask leading questions. Thank you very much.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Of course, any decisions on the

11 procedural matters will apply equally to the both parties if in the future

12 the same situation arises.

13 And there's one matter in this situation I would like to draw the

14 attention to the parties. According to the Rule 90(E) of the Rules of

15 Procedure and Evidence of this Tribunal, a witness may object to making

16 any statement which might tend to incriminate the witness. I believe this

17 is the right of the witness. But however, the next sentence says: "The

18 Chamber may compel the witness to answer the question. The testimony

19 compelled in this way shall not be used as evidence in a subsequent

20 prosecution against the witness for any offence other than false

21 testimony."

22 So the rule says very clearly that only the Trial Chamber has the

23 power to compel a witness to answer a question which might incriminate

24 that witness. As a practice, all the proceedings should be conducted in

25 accordance with the normal way; that is, try to avoid the leading

Page 3103

1 questions by the examination-in-chief. But anyway, if the Prosecution

2 finds that there is any inconsistency with the previous statement or the

3 witness tries to avoid to answer the questions, the Prosecution should

4 refer this matter to the Chamber, and the Chamber will decide whether to

5 allow this witness to answer that question. And at some occasions, we

6 might go to the private sessions to hear the answer of that witness. By

7 saying so, the motion of the Prosecution is granted.

8 As for the next witness, are there any protective measures?

9 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Could we have the next witness, please.

11 [The witness entered court]

12 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, witness.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

14 JUDGE LIU: Can you hear me?

15 Would you please make the solemn declaration.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may sit down, please.

19 Well, witness, before you start, there's a few words I would like

20 to tell you; that is, as a witness, you have the right to object making

21 any statements which might tend to incriminate yourself. But however,

22 this Trial Chamber has the right to compel you to answer the question.

23 The testimony compelled in this way shall not be used as evidence in a

24 subsequent prosecution against you for any offences other than the false

25 testimony.

Page 3104

1 So the proceedings, if you find some questions that might

2 incriminate you, please let us know. Do you understand that? I can't

3 hear you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

6 And Mr. Waespi, are you ready to start?

7 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please proceed.

9 WITNESS: MILAN MILINKOVIC

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Examined by Mr. Waespi:

12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Milinkovic. I would just like to follow-up with

13 what the President has asked you. Do you remember having met with us on

14 Saturday and on Sunday in my office?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And we told you that you could have the right to a counsel and

17 that you had the right to remain silent if you wanted to do so. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. But you said it's fine, you would waive these rights and will be

21 ready to talk to us. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you also said that also in Court, you're willing to go ahead.

24 Can you confirm that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3105

1 Q. So today, you are ready to proceed without counsel in answering

2 the questions?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, I would like just briefly to ask you about personal details.

5 Can you spell your name for the record, please.

6 A. Milan Milinkovic. M-I-L-I-N-K-O-V-I-C, M-I-L-A-N.

7 Q. Do you have a nickname?

8 A. L-I-K-E, Like.

9 Q. Thanks. Now, what's the date and place of your birth?

10 A. The 1st of July 1973 in Ljubovija.

11 Q. Let me take you back to July 1995. Were you a soldier at that

12 time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And to which unit were you assigned?

15 A. The 2nd Battalion, the 2nd Bratunac Battalion.

16 Q. Of which -- any brigade?

17 A. The Bratunac.

18 Q. And do you know whether you were assigned to a specific company?

19 A. No. The 2nd Battalion, the 2nd Company, I think.

20 Q. Now, I would like to start with showing you a brief videoclip, and

21 I believe you have seen that back in my office.

22 MR. WAESPI: And Your Honours, that's Prosecution Exhibit P148.

23 Q. And I would like to ask you to look at it and perhaps you

24 recognise some familiar faces. And I will ask you later about that. So

25 let's just see the video.

Page 3106

1 [Videotape played]

2 MR. WAESPI: Are people able to see it?

3 Q. Do you see something, witness?

4 A. No.

5 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you could retry it, Mr. Waespi.

6 MR. WAESPI: If the video -- I think we just continue with the

7 video until we see it, and then we will rewind to the beginning. Please

8 start again.

9 Q. Are you able to see something?

10 A. Yes, I am.

11 [Videotape played]

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's me.

13 MR. WAESPI:

14 Q. Thanks. Let's continue.

15 Do you remember the time and location this video was shot?

16 A. I think that this is the 12th of July in Potocari.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. WAESPI: Please continue.

19 [Videotape played]

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's me.

21 MR. WAESPI:

22 Q. [redacted]

23 A. [redacted]

24 Q. [redacted]

25 A. [redacted]

Page 3107

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 MR. WAESPI: Okay. I think that's fine. We can stop it here.

8 Your Honours, if we briefly could go into closed session.

9 JUDGE LIU: You mean the private session, I suppose?

10 MR. WAESPI: I think it should be closed because we may be showing

11 a picture which the public outside can pick up from our screens. It will

12 be very brief.

13 JUDGE LIU: I think that's the problem. It's very brief, but we

14 have to pull all the blinds down. Well, since you request it, we'll go to

15 the closed session, please.

16 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much.

17 [Closed session]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 3108

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Page 3109

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8 [Open session]

9 MR. WAESPI: If we could go on to the next exhibit, and that would

10 be Prosecution Exhibit P22. Again, previously admitted, chapter 10, page

11 2.

12 Q. Do you recognise anyone on this picture? And I think you have

13 said that before.

14 A. Yes, that's me.

15 Q. Thank you. If we could go on to the next image, this is Exhibit

16 P22, chapter 10, page 3. And again, if you could identify, if you may,

17 anybody you know.

18 A. That's me again.

19 Q. What kind of weapon are you holding?

20 A. A PM, it's a machine-gun.

21 Q. Was that an official weapon you were given by your superiors,

22 commanders?

23 A. No. This is a weapon that was owned by my brother-in-law.

24 Q. If we could go on to the next exhibit, which is P22, chapter 10,

25 page 4.

Page 3110

1 MR. WAESPI: And Mr. President, this is a new exhibit which we

2 just added during proofing. But it has been part of the bundle which came

3 in via P22.

4 Q. It's only a black-and-white picture, Mr. Milinkovic, but perhaps

5 you can recognise somebody on this picture.

6 A. I know some of these people by sight. I know this man here, the

7 first man in the picture, in the foreground of the picture. His name is

8 Brano.

9 Q. You mean the first one on the left side?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And do you know which military unit he was from?

12 A. No, I don't.

13 Q. Do you recognise anybody else on this picture?

14 A. I know these other people, too, but I don't know their names. I

15 know the one with the moustache.

16 Q. And the one with the moustache would be which one from the left

17 side?

18 A. Second to the left, yes.

19 Q. And did you say you knew his name or you didn't know his name?

20 A. I do not know his name.

21 Q. Do you know from which unit he is?

22 A. No.

23 Q. If we could turn to the next exhibit, which is again P22, chapter

24 10, page 5, do you recognise anybody here?

25 A. Yes, this is Ljubisa Borovcanin.

Page 3111

1 Q. Do you know his position at that time?

2 A. He was with the police.

3 Q. Let's turn, if we may, to the next exhibit. And this is again

4 P22, chapter 10, page 10. Do you recognise anybody on this picture?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And if we start from the left side, who do you recognise?

7 A. I know this name. He owns a pharmacy in Bratunac, I think. But I

8 don't know his name.

9 Q. Then the person in the middle, the person with a cap, sunglasses,

10 and a weapon?

11 A. Yes. Rade.

12 Q. Do you know his last name?

13 A. Jovanovic.

14 Q. And the man just right to Jovanovic, do you know this person?

15 A. I do. They call him the "Montenegrin".

16 Q. Now, do you know from which unit these three persons were?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You couldn't tell whether they were from your unit or from

19 somebody else?

20 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going to object.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: It's asked and answered. He got answer that he

23 asked for. Now he's trying to lead the witness into guessing.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Waespi, this kind of leading question is not

25 allowed.

Page 3112

1 MR. WAESPI: I'll move on. Thank you, Mr. President.

2 Q. If we can move on to the next exhibit, this would be P22, chapter

3 12, page 5. The picture is not very good, but perhaps you can recognise

4 somebody on this picture if we start from the right side.

5 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, I believe I have a coloured picture,

6 and it may be easier for him to get it from the ELMO if we can switch to

7 the ELMO for a moment.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course. So long as they are the same picture.

9 MR. WAESPI:

10 Q. And if you can have a look at it on the machine itself,

11 Mr. Milinkovic. You don't need to look at the screen, but you can turn to

12 your right and look at it. They are numbered. Number 1, do you recognise

13 this individual?

14 A. These are the military police. Zaric.

15 Q. Do you know his first name?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And do you know from which military police he was?

18 A. The Bratunac military police.

19 Q. And if we could turn on to the next picture, that would be

20 Exhibit P46 -- P146, I'm sorry. Thank you.

21 Again, do you recognise anybody on this picture?

22 A. This is Zaric again.

23 Q. The same person we saw in the other picture before?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Let's move on to the next exhibit, and that's Exhibit P147. Here

Page 3113

1 you have two persons, one above wearing a cap, and one below. Do you

2 recognise the person above with the cap?

3 A. That's -- Goran Zekic. Goran or Dragan. Goran.

4 Q. Do you know from which military unit he was?

5 A. I don't.

6 Q. And do you recognise --

7 A. Perhaps the corps police.

8 Q. And do you recognise the second person, the one on --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And who would that be?

11 A. Giga. Milosavljevic.

12 Q. So Giga would be his nickname?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. If we could move on to the next exhibit, P144, again, the same

15 question. Do you recognise anybody?

16 A. Yes. Bibic.

17 Q. You mean Predrag Bibic is that person --

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. And is he on the right or on the left?

20 A. On the right.

21 Q. And do you know the person on the left side?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Can you tell us where this picture was taken from?

24 A. The old post office in Srebrenica.

25 Q. And was that the same day we discussed earlier, the 12th July?

Page 3114

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: I believe a foundation needs to be laid. I mean,

4 he may be able to identify where the photograph was taken, but now he's

5 being asked when it was taken.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Mr. Waespi.

7 MR. WAESPI: Yes.

8 Q. Mr. Milinkovic, can you tell us when this shot was taken.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Same objection.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, yeah. Well, Mr. Waespi, you asked this witness

11 when was this picture taken, but you have to lay a foundation that this

12 witness was present at that time or has some informations about the taking

13 of this picture. You know, some background information so that we could

14 whether his answer is just a guess or what he saw at this time, or

15 something like this. In that direction.

16 MR. WAESPI: Certainly, Mr. President.

17 Q. Were you with these people around that time on the 12th of July?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you said before this was taken in front of the old post

20 station in Srebrenica. Were you in Srebrenica as well --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. -- around that time? Thank you.

23 And was it the same day this picture was taken when you had

24 entered Potocari, what we saw on the video earlier?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3115

1 Q. If we could move on to the next exhibit, that's 145. Do you

2 recognise this person?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And who is this person?

5 A. That's Prebelez, konobar, he's a waiter.

6 Q. A waiter from which city, if you know?

7 A. From Srebrenica.

8 MR. WAESPI: Now we are done with these exhibits, Mr. President.

9 Q. I would like to ask you a few more questions about that day.

10 Do you recall where you were in the morning on 12th of July?

11 A. In Bratunac.

12 Q. Now, at one time, were you rounded up by some people?

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. Leading. I don't mean to be a stickler

14 for formality, but the question is leading. "At one time, you were

15 rounded up." How does he know this? "Please explain what happened on

16 that particular day, walk us through." And then if the person doesn't

17 recall, he can refresh the memory or confront. But I think this is an

18 important witness for some issues, so I would please ask that the

19 Prosecutor be directed not to lead the witness. Thank you.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, maybe you could put your question another way.

21 MR. WAESPI:

22 Q. On that morning, you said you were in Bratunac.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, where were you in Bratunac?

25 A. In the centre of town.

Page 3116

1 Q. And what were you doing?

2 A. Well, we were just walking around.

3 Q. Did you meet any people?

4 A. Only the military police.

5 Q. And how many members of the military police did you meet?

6 A. Five or six.

7 Q. Why do you know these were military police? Were they wearing

8 uniforms?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, what did these members of the military police tell you, if

11 anything?

12 A. They were shouting at us, and they were telling us to go back to

13 our positions.

14 Q. And did you, in fact, do that? Did you go back to your position?

15 A. Yes, we did.

16 Q. And who was with you at that time?

17 A. Bibic, Predrag Bibic. Bjelov, Bekac.

18 Q. Anybody else?

19 A. No. No one else.

20 Q. Now, where were your positions?

21 A. The star, the five-pointed Chetnik star. Above Bratunac, there's

22 a hill, a small hill.

23 MR. WAESPI: If we could, Mr. President, show the witness the next

24 exhibit, which is P149.

25 Q. Can you see Bratunac on the map?

Page 3117

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you point with your -- with a pen to the town of Bratunac.

3 A. [Indicates]

4 Q. And can you tell us where you see the hill that you just mentioned

5 where you were positioned.

6 A. It's not on the map. There's this, this is nearby. Gradac.

7 MR. WAESPI: The witness pointed to a location about 2 centimetres

8 southwest of the city centre of Bratunac.

9 Q. Let me just briefly go back to what you said about these members

10 from the military police. Did you know any member of these military

11 police whom you met on that day?

12 A. No. I didn't know those people.

13 Q. Do you know whether they were attached to any specific brigade or

14 not?

15 A. No, I didn't know.

16 Q. Do you know under whose command these members of the military

17 police were?

18 A. I don't know exactly. Mainly, they were the Serb military police.

19 Q. By "Serb military police," you mean from Serbia or from

20 Republika Srpska?

21 A. From Republika Srpska.

22 Q. Let's go back to when you went to the hill. How long did you stay

23 on that hill?

24 A. Perhaps for about five hours, four.

25 Q. And did someone order you to do something afterwards?

Page 3118

1 A. Word got through that Srebrenica had fallen, and then we started

2 down towards Potocari.

3 Q. Now, did you do that on your own or did somebody order you to go

4 to Srebrenica or to Potocari?

5 A. The commander told us.

6 Q. And who was your commander?

7 A. The company commander, not ours, but rather the commander of all

8 of us. Dule, Dule.

9 Q. And incidentally, do you know the commander of your battalion, of

10 the 2nd Battalion?

11 A. Goran Stakic.

12 Q. Now, you said you were told to go to Potocari. And that's when we

13 saw you on that video today.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, it's leading, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: Why?

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, for a couple of reasons: One, we have the

17 gentleman indicating that he was in Bratunac, and at some point he's told

18 by the military police to get to -- to go back to wherever they came from.

19 And it seems now -- I mean, now he seems to be leading the witness as to

20 saying well, you're in Potocari because you were given orders. How did he

21 get there? I mean, I'm not trying to be disruptive, but if we could have

22 the witness describe exactly how the day evolved and how he got there, it

23 would be much easier to have a clean record. I'm not sure whether he went

24 back up to the hills, and then was directed back down, or did he initially

25 get the order and instead of going to Potocari ended up in Bratunac, and

Page 3119

1 then was directed back? It's very difficult to follow, Your Honour. And

2 that's why I believe it's leading in nature. It's very unclear. And the

3 Prosecutor is trying to clear up the record because perhaps he's not

4 asking the right questions and we're not getting a clear story.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think it's a leading question,

6 but your intervention is helpful. Maybe that's very important evidence in

7 this case. So Mr. Waespi, can you ask questions step-by-step so we can

8 know how this witness got to Potocari.

9 MR. WAESPI: I will do so, Mr. President.

10 Q. Witness, you just told us that you were on that hill within your

11 unit.

12 A. Yes, when they drove us out of Bratunac, we went back to our

13 positions.

14 Q. Yes. And from these positions on the hill, you were told by Dule

15 to go to Potocari. Is that what you were saying?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. How did you get from the positions on the hill to Potocari?

18 A. It's not that far away. It's not a big hill.

19 Q. How long did it take for you timewise?

20 A. Ten minutes.

21 Q. And what were you doing once you arrived in Potocari?

22 A. I went home.

23 Q. And how long did you stay in Potocari before you went home?

24 A. About half an hour, an hour perhaps.

25 Q. And what were you doing in this half an hour, if anything, in

Page 3120

1 Potocari?

2 A. Nothing. I was walking down the street. It was an asphalt

3 street.

4 Q. And the picture we have seen today on the video, could those

5 pictures be that half an hour you were in Potocari?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, you said you went home afterwards. Where is home for you?

8 A. In Srebrenica.

9 Q. So how did you get to Srebrenica?

10 A. Once we reached the old post office, or rather, the new post

11 office in Potocari, there were horses there. We took the horses, and we

12 rode off.

13 Q. When you say "we," can you tell us who was with you at the time on

14 horseback?

15 A. Bibic and myself, Bjelov, Bekac.

16 Q. You mentioned a person Bjelov. Does he have a full name?

17 A. Mladen.

18 Q. And his last name?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And apart from yourself and Bjelov, who else was there?

21 A. Predrag Bibic.

22 Q. Anybody else?

23 A. Bekac.

24 Q. And anybody else? That's fine if that was it.

25 A. Yes.

Page 3121

1 Q. Now, do you know from which unit these people were?

2 A. The 2nd Battalion.

3 Q. The same battalion you were in?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, for how long did you stay in Srebrenica?

6 A. Four or five days.

7 Q. And were you alone in Srebrenica with your group, or were there

8 other people?

9 A. There were other people.

10 Q. And what were these people doing?

11 A. They were taking things. They were drinking, that sort of thing.

12 Q. And these people, were these civilians or soldiers?

13 A. Soldiers.

14 Q. And from which unit, if you know?

15 A. No, I don't. I don't know.

16 Q. Now, you said you stayed in Srebrenica for about four to five

17 days. What happened afterwards? Did you leave Srebrenica?

18 A. I went home to Bratunac.

19 Q. And what happened in Bratunac?

20 A. Nothing.

21 Q. How long did you stay in Bratunac?

22 A. I was at home all day in Bratunac.

23 Q. And for how many nights, if any, did you stay in Bratunac?

24 A. I was in Bratunac until the time I was made to go to Srebrenica.

25 Q. Now, who told you to go to Srebrenica?

Page 3122

1 A. The housing commission. We were relocated. They didn't do that

2 right away. They did it several months later.

3 Q. Now, let me just ask a few last questions. Did you ever go to the

4 front line in Zepa?

5 A. Yes, we did go up there once, and we lost our way. But I don't

6 remember the exact date that was. It was after the fall of Srebrenica.

7 Q. Do you recall how many days after the fall of Srebrenica?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Was it a month or was it less than a month?

10 A. Perhaps a little bit less than a month, something like that. I

11 don't remember exactly.

12 Q. And who told you, if anybody, to go to Zepa?

13 A. Yes, the commander.

14 Q. And who was the commander?

15 A. Momir. Momir Nikolic.

16 Q. And he was the commander of what, if you know?

17 A. He was in the command, a chief of some kind. I don't know.

18 Q. And do you know what kind of unit, if any, he would be commanding?

19 A. He could command everybody.

20 Q. And my last question: Do you know Momir Nikolic personally?

21 A. Yes, we know each other. He's from Bratunac as well, so we do

22 know each other.

23 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. I've no further questions.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

25 Mr. Karnavas, we have 10 minutes to go in this sitting. Do you

Page 3123

1 want to begin your cross-examination now, or we have a break, and after

2 the break you could have your cross-examination intact?

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Why don't we take a break, Your Honour, if that's

4 okay with you.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll break now for 30 minutes. We'll resume at

6 10.35.

7 --- Recess taken at 10.04 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 10.38 a.m.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

10 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, with your leave, and I just had asked

11 Defence counsel whether he objected, I would like to ask one more

12 question, an important point to clarify with this witness.

13 JUDGE LIU: Any objections, Mr. Karnavas?

14 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stojanovic?

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objection, Your Honour.

17 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much. Much obliged to my colleagues.

18 I would like to show the witness one page of the proofing summary

19 which we have drafted yesterday when we met with him, and we have, in

20 fact, disclosed that to the Defence, and I think it's now also ready for

21 Your Honours.

22 Q. Mr. Milinkovic, do you recall having met with me and my

23 investigators over the weekend in my office?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, I would like to show you the second page of the proofing

Page 3124

1 notes which we had drafted. And on the second page, I have marked - it's

2 the B/C/S version - I have marked a sentence in yellow. And in the

3 English version, it's on the second paragraph starting: "The witness

4 further clarified..."

5 MR. WAESPI: Mr. Usher.

6 Q. And I would like the witness to read out -- to read for himself,

7 just the sentence from: "The witness did not know any of these

8 individuals." If you can read it to yourself.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, can you tell us today of which unit was Momir Nikolic the

11 commander of?

12 A. For a while, he was a commander of the military police. Then he

13 became the chief of the command. He was a chief at the command. And I

14 don't know the exact date when he was commander of the military police.

15 Q. In relation to the fall of Srebrenica, was he command of the

16 military police before the fall or after the fall or at the time of the

17 fall? Or you cannot tell?

18 A. He was commander of the military police before the fall. Later,

19 he became the chief of security in the command.

20 Q. And in the command of what?

21 A. The command of the brigade in Bratunac. That's what it would be.

22 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, my colleagues.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

24 Cross-examination, Mr. Karnavas.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 3125

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:

2 Q. Good morning, Mr. Milinkovic. Now, back in January 29, 2003, you

3 met with a representative of the Office of the Prosecution, did you not?

4 A. Yes, but I don't know the exact date.

5 Q. All right. And as I understand it, you met with them in Bratunac

6 or in Srebrenica?

7 A. In Srebrenica.

8 Q. In fact, it was the Srebrenica police station. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And at that point, you were asked some questions?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you provided them -- you provided the investigator with some

13 answers. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you know whether that -- how long did that questioning process

16 take place?

17 A. Perhaps an hour, an hour and a half. I don't know exactly.

18 Q. And how was it that you were -- you met with them at the

19 Srebrenica police station?

20 A. I was called -- they called me at home, over the telephone.

21 Q. Okay. And was that on the day that your -- that the -- that you

22 gave the statement, or did they give you some advance notice so that you

23 would know when the interview would take place?

24 A. I didn't know about it before. It happened on that same day.

25 Q. So they called you up, and you went down to the police station,

Page 3126

1 and that's when you met them for the first time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you know whether that statement was tape recorded or not?

4 A. No.

5 Q. So you distinctly remember not seeing a tape recorder in front of

6 you when you were having this discussion with, I believe it was the

7 investigator, Bruce Bursik?

8 A. I didn't see anything.

9 Q. Okay. Now, I take it that there was a translator there or an

10 interpreter?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. Did they -- do you know whether at the conclusion of your

13 statement, whether -- or this questioning process, whether they wrote out

14 a statement for you to look at and review?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 Q. And I take it they didn't ask you to write out a statement in your

17 words so that we would have an accurate, at least by your terms, version

18 of the events?

19 A. No, no, nobody asked me to write anything.

20 Q. All right. And I take it that when you met with the Prosecution

21 yesterday in order for them to prepare you for your testimony today, that

22 was first time that you saw the two-page statement or two-page summary

23 that was generated by the Office of the Prosecution?

24 A. Could you please repeat that.

25 Q. All right. Yesterday, you met with the Prosecution.

Page 3127

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. They asked you some questions?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. They showed you some photographs and a video?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And they also showed you a two-page summary that had been prepared

7 by the investigator based on their interview with you back in January?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Of course. Because then they asked you to read it and to see if

10 you had any -- if you wanted to make any corrections.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And in fact, you made one correction, at least, which was they had

13 put you down to be with the 3rd Battalion when in fact you corrected them

14 and said no, you were with the 2nd Battalion?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And I take it you had the opportunity yesterday to read that

17 little summary, the two-page summary.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. And just for the record, that was the first time that you

20 actually saw that summary?

21 A. I can't remember.

22 Q. Okay. All right. Now, with the Court's permission, let's go over

23 that summary if we could. And for the record, it's D54/1.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: I believe we've provided copies to everyone, and if

25 we can give you a copy of it.

Page 3128

1 Q. Would you please take a look at that and see if you recognise it.

2 You don't have to read the whole thing; just let me know if you recognise

3 it.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask the question again, and I'll do it in a

6 different fashion. When was the first time that you actually saw this

7 summary of your statement?

8 A. They did show it to me there, I think, when we finished our

9 conversation.

10 Q. Okay. So now you believe that they had typed it out and then they

11 showed it to you back in Srebrenica at the police station?

12 A. I don't remember. I don't remember.

13 Q. Okay, all right. That's all right. And if you don't remember,

14 you know, don't try to make up something. That's the best answer.

15 Okay. Now if we could go through it --

16 A. I don't remember, really.

17 Q. But you do remember being there, being asked questions, and giving

18 answers. That you remember?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. And I take it when they began this questioning process,

21 they told you that your status was as a witness at the time?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And I'm sure they probably asked you to be as truthful and as

24 honest as you could.

25 A. Yes.

Page 3129

1 Q. And obviously, they probably told you how important it was for you

2 to be truthful and honest at the time because this was a very serious

3 matter. Right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you understand all the questions that were being asked of you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. And I take it at the time that you were answering those

8 questions, they would give you sufficient time to listen to the question,

9 think, and then answer?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. And you didn't feel coerced in any way, that you were

12 being forced to come up with a particular answer?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay. Now, the whole topic of that conversation more or less was

15 about your involvement in Bratunac and Srebrenica during the fall of

16 Srebrenica. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, as I understand it, back then when you were being questioned,

19 you indicated that on the day that they show you -- they showed you the

20 photograph of you being in Potocari, that was July 12th, on that

21 particular day, you had put in that you were sick. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And in fact, if we were to look at the summary, it states that,

24 that you had booked -- that you had booked off sick from duties in the

25 battalion because you didn't want to be on the confrontation line. If you

Page 3130

1 look at the bottom of the page, of the first page, it says that, doesn't

2 it? Look at the last paragraph, the third sentence in the last paragraph.

3 Do you see it, where it says: "He states that he had booked off from

4 duties in the battalion as he no longer wanted to serve on the

5 confrontation line." And then you state: "He admits that he was not sick

6 at the time and was walking through the town centre of Bratunac that

7 morning." Do you see that in the summary?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. Now, I take it the investigator put it there in the

10 summary because that's what, in fact, you had told him at the time. Is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right. Now, I take it you told him that because you believed,

14 at least at that time, that was that was the truth?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. Okay. Now, just so I'm clear, all right, are we to understand

17 today, here in this Tribunal, in this hearing, that on the morning of the

18 12th, you were in Bratunac because you had put in that you were sick?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And when you put in that you were sick, that was an excuse for you

21 not to be at the line?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And that excuse was false?

24 A. Sick, it was false. It was not true that I was sick.

25 Q. Okay. All right. All right.

Page 3131

1 But you needed a legitimate excuse so you could leave the line and

2 be in Bratunac and do whatever it is that you wanted to do?

3 A. I couldn't do whatever I wanted to do.

4 Q. Well, that's why you put in -- you fabricated this illness so that

5 you could leave and you could be in Bratunac and have a legitimate purpose

6 for not being where you were supposed to be.

7 A. I didn't want to be on the line that day.

8 Q. Okay. All right. And now you state that while you were in

9 Bratunac, that's when you were picked up or noticed by the military

10 police?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, today you indicated that you did not know which unit the

13 military police came from. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, are we to understand that the military police could have been

16 from Bratunac, or could have been from the corps, could have been from

17 some other unit?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. So as you sit here today, you do not know which units these

20 military police were from, but you believe that they were, in fact,

21 military police?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is there a particular reason why you decided to comply with their

24 requests or their order?

25 A. I had to. I had to go.

Page 3132

1 Q. Why did you have to?

2 A. To the line. Because it happened that they would shoot at the

3 soldiers. A friend of mine was actually shot at and wounded.

4 Q. Why didn't you tell them that you were sick, that you had put in

5 for sick and that you were on sick leave legitimately?

6 A. Nobody -- they didn't listen to anything or anybody. When they

7 come, they force the elderly and the younger people to go.

8 Q. All right. To go to the front line or to wherever they're

9 supposed to be?

10 A. Yes, yes.

11 Q. Now, when you were in Bratunac, did you have your weapon with you?

12 A. Yes, you would always carry your weapons.

13 Q. And why is that?

14 A. Just like that, you always carried weapons. What do I know?

15 Q. Were you dressed -- were you dressed in your uniform such as it

16 was?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Since you were on sick leave, why didn't you have civilian

19 clothes? Why weren't you dressed in civilian clothes?

20 A. I didn't have civilian clothes, so to speak. You just wore

21 uniform.

22 Q. All right. Now, as I understand it, when the military police

23 picked you up, they directed you to go to Srebrenica. Is that correct?

24 A. No, to go to our positions.

25 Q. All right. Could you kindly look at your statement, the summary,

Page 3133

1 now and if you look at sort of the bottom, the last line -- the last two

2 lines where it says: "The Bratunac Brigade military police instructed

3 them to proceed to Srebrenica to assist in its liberation."

4 A. To the positions.

5 Q. No, hold on. Do you see anything in there that says "to your

6 position"?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Okay. What does it say?

9 A. Should I read it out?

10 Q. Well, you can read it to yourself and you can tell me what it

11 says, or you can read it out. However you wish to do it.

12 A. Well, I thought it was the Bratunac military police, but it

13 wasn't.

14 Q. Just -- we're going to do it step by step, korak po korak. All

15 right.

16 So you state here, according to the investigator, "the Bratunac

17 Brigade military police instructed them," meaning you and your friends, to

18 proceed to Srebrenica to "assist in its liberation." Does it not say that

19 in your statement?

20 A. Yes, yes, that's what it says.

21 Q. All right. Now, is your testimony today that at the time that you

22 were speaking to this investigator, you had not identified the military

23 police as being from the Bratunac Brigade?

24 A. It wasn't the Bratunac Brigade.

25 Q. Okay. So that's something that you didn't say, but obviously the

Page 3134

1 investigator must have assumed that that's what you meant.

2 A. No, I don't know.

3 Q. Okay. All right. And then it says that you told the investigator

4 that you were instructed by the military police to proceed to Srebrenica;

5 not Potocari, not to your positions, but to Srebrenica to "assist in its

6 liberation." Did you say that to the investigator, or is that something

7 else that the investigator might have misunderstood and put that down?

8 A. I can't remember.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. I was surprised when they came, when they came for me.

11 Q. Okay. All right. But as you indicated, they weren't trying to

12 force you to say something. They were --

13 A. No, no.

14 Q. In fact, he was a total gentleman when he was talking to you.

15 Right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You probably had a coffee, had a smoke, he was just asking you

18 some questions. Right?

19 A. Yes, of course.

20 Q. Of course. And then you indicate in your statement that you

21 entered Potocari around 11.00. If you turn over to the next page in the

22 statement, and I'm referring to D54/1 for identification. If you look at

23 the first sentence in the next page.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes.

Page 3135

1 JUDGE LIU: Here I have to remind you that in this information

2 report, there's some points that have been redacted. You have to be very

3 careful about certain names if you are going to use them.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: I wasn't planning on using the names, Your Honour.

5 But I appreciate the cautionary note.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 MR. KARNAVAS:

8 Q. Now, do you see where it says that you were instructed -- that you

9 state that you entered Potocari around 11.00?

10 A. Yes, roughly speaking. I didn't exactly...

11 Q. All right. Now, that was the same date, was it not?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And of course, if you're going to go to Srebrenica, you have to go

14 through Potocari from Bratunac before you can get to Srebrenica. Isn't

15 that correct?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. All right. And then you go on to say that you and others were

18 rounded up by VRS soldiers, walked into Potocari towards the large crowd.

19 Is that correct? Is that what it says?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. Now, in your statement here, and I take it you read this

22 statement -- you read this information report, whatever it's called, yeah,

23 information report, such as it is. You read it yesterday. Right?

24 A. This one?

25 Q. Yeah.

Page 3136

1 A. No.

2 Q. I thought we already talked about how you read it and you made

3 some corrections. You read it yesterday. Right?

4 A. On Saturday.

5 Q. All right. Saturday. I apologise. All right. So you met with

6 the Prosecutor both on Saturday and Sunday?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So for two days, they were prepping you to come here today?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Okay. Now, is there anywhere, anywhere in this statement here,

11 where you talk about going back to your location? Why don't you look at

12 it.

13 A. Can you please repeat the question.

14 Q. Okay. Today, you testified when you were being questioned by the

15 Prosecution that you were directed to go back to your position, and I

16 believe it was in Kokarda. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, I'm having problems finding that in the little information

19 report that was prepared by the investigator for the Office of the

20 Prosecution. Do you see it anywhere there? It's not there, isn't it? It

21 wasn't there on Saturday or Sunday, so I doubt if it will be there on

22 Monday.

23 A. I couldn't remember everything.

24 Q. That wasn't the question, though. My question is, is it in the

25 information report? Yes or no.

Page 3137

1 A. I can't see that.

2 Q. Okay. You can't see that because it's not there.

3 A. I don't know. I can't see that.

4 Q. Okay. Well, it's not on the information report. And could it be

5 that it's not in the information report because you never said anything

6 like that to the Office of the Prosecution investigator Bruce Bursik?

7 A. I did.

8 Q. If we only had a tape recording from the Office of the Prosecution

9 when they took your statement.

10 A. I think I said that.

11 Q. All right. But there's no way of verifying of it at this point.

12 Let me ask you this question: I notice that on the proofing

13 notes -- well, we received some -- during your conversations with the

14 Prosecution over the Saturday and Sunday when they were getting you ready

15 to testify here today, did they share with you some notes that they took

16 down to make sure that they were true, accurate, and complete as far as

17 what you had discussed with them and what they had discussed with you?

18 A. No.

19 Q. All right. Well, let me show you something that might -- let me

20 show you what has been marked as D55/1 for identification purposes.

21 D55/1. If you can please look at it, look at both sides. You don't have

22 to read it, just look at it.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Were you ever shown this document before coming here today?

25 A. This?

Page 3138

1 Q. Yes, yes, D55/1, that document.

2 A. No.

3 Q. Okay. All right. Well, let's go through it anyway, or part of

4 it. I want you to look at the second paragraph. And I want you to see

5 where it talks about -- where you correct them with respect to the 3rd

6 Battalion, that it should read "2nd Battalion, 2nd Company of the Bratunac

7 Brigade." Do you see that? First page, second paragraph, third line, do

8 you see that, sir?

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think you asked this question

10 and this questioned has been answered already.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: There's a reason; I want to lock him into this,

12 Your Honour, because my next question is going to be with respect to other

13 corrections that he hasn't made, at least that are not known in the

14 proofing notes. I just want to make sure that...

15 Q. Do you see that, sir? Mr. Milinkovic. All right, listen to my

16 question. In this document I've shown you, I directed your attention to

17 the second paragraph, paragraph 1, paragraph 2. The third line, does it

18 not, in fact, state in your language, in the language in which you can

19 read and write, that you make a correction that in the information report

20 it states 3rd Battalion is incorrect and it should be 2nd Battalion. Does

21 it not state that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. All right. Thank you.

24 Now, in these proofing notes, there are no corrections of you

25 having told the Prosecutor that you were not directed by the military

Page 3139

1 police to go and assist in the liberation of Srebrenica.

2 A. They sent us back to our positions.

3 Q. All right. Listen to me. Yesterday and the day before, is it not

4 a fact that you never told the Prosecution that the information report was

5 incorrect, that you had not stated that you were told to go to Srebrenica

6 to assist in the liberation?

7 A. Well, it had been liberated by that time, by the time we left our

8 positions and reached Potocari.

9 Q. Mr. Milinkovic, yesterday and the day before, you were asked to

10 read the information report and to make any corrections. Isn't that a

11 fact?

12 A. Yes, and I made a number of corrections.

13 Q. All right. And perhaps you can show me where on the proofing

14 notes, the document that I gave you, which has been marked as D55/1 for

15 identification, the Prosecution has noted that you, in fact, correct the

16 record of what you had said to Bruce Bursik with respect to the military

17 police instructing you to go to Srebrenica to assist in the liberation.

18 Look at the one-page document I just gave you. Show me where it says that

19 you corrected them. You're looking at the wrong document, sir.

20 The one that states: "Proofing notes in relation to

21 Milan Milinkovic," that one, at the top. Read that and tell me where it

22 is that you have corrected the Prosecution. It's the other document that

23 you should be looking at, sir.

24 A. The thing about the 3rd Battalion.

25 Q. All right. Mr. Milinkovic, my point is this: With respect to the

Page 3140

1 3rd Battalion, you correct them. It's quite obvious from paragraph 2.

2 Right? Do you see anywhere else where it says that you corrected the

3 information report by stating that you had not told Bruce Bursik that you

4 had been instructed by the military police to proceed to Srebrenica to

5 assist in the liberation. Do you see that anywhere?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Okay. And can we conclude from that that it's not in the proofing

8 notes because you made no corrections or offered no corrections to the

9 Prosecution during that two-day period when they were preparing you to

10 testify here today?

11 A. No.

12 Q. All right. Now, getting back to your information report, the

13 other document, in that document there's nothing in it that states that

14 you had told the investigator for the Office of the Prosecution that you

15 were instructed by your commander to go to Potocari, is there? If you

16 look at the second page --

17 A. No, no.

18 Q. There's nothing in it.

19 A. No.

20 Q. And there's nothing in it because at the time that you met with

21 the investigator of the Office of the Prosecution back in Srebrenica - for

22 the record I'm referring to D54/1 - you never said anything to that

23 investigator that you were told by your commander to go to Potocari on

24 July 12th, 1995? Isn't that a fact?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3141

1 Q. All right. You never told that to the investigator?

2 A. No, I didn't.

3 Q. And you never told him even after he had instructed you that you

4 needed to be true and accurate and complete with the information that you

5 were to provide him. Right?

6 A. I couldn't remember every single thing.

7 Q. I didn't ask you that question. If the Prosecution --

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, for the record, if Mr. McCloskey

9 wishes to object, I have no problem with relaxing the rules. He can

10 object rather than shouting to the other Prosecutor to stand up and

11 object. It's a perfect cross-examination, but I have no problem with

12 Mr. McCloskey assisting his colleague.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think you asked enough questions

14 on this aspect, and we know that point is a very important one. But we

15 wonder where you are going to lead us to.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, it's a slower process than I had anticipated,

17 Your Honour. But as you can see, we're going to get there -- we'll get

18 there. But I'll move on to the next segment, which is --

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, don't get the witness confused, you know. Not

20 everybody is quite as learned as you.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand, Your Honour. That's why I'm trying

22 to break it down as simple as possible.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

24 MR. KARNAVAS:

25 Q. Now, in your statement, there's nothing in it that states that you

Page 3142

1 were ordered. Right? Nothing in there.

2 A. No, there isn't.

3 Q. But you do state that you did, in fact, go to Srebrenica and

4 stayed there for approximately three days.

5 A. Yes, that's how it was. I thought it was three, but it was

6 probably four, five, or six days, or thereabouts.

7 Q. All right. And now were you in Srebrenica because you had been

8 asked to liberate it, or were you there because you just didn't want to be

9 where you were supposed to be and you wanted to check on your house as

10 well?

11 A. It was mostly for the house.

12 Q. All right. And you decided to stay there. I assume you were

13 joined by some friends?

14 A. Yes, yes. Yes, those people that I've named were there.

15 Q. Right. And then you started drinking a little rakija, maybe

16 having a little goat barbecue, maybe doing a little looting?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. And then after four or five days of having some

21 unsupervised fun, you went back to Bratunac.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. And I believe in your statement, you state that that's when

24 Momir Nikolic asked you or requested that you go to Zepa. Is that

25 correct?

Page 3143

1 A. I don't know how many days later. But he did ask, and we did go

2 to Zepa.

3 Q. Okay. But it's your vivid recollection that it was Momir Nikolic

4 who was -- who instructed you to go to Zepa?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. Now -- and of course, you complied with his order.

7 A. I wasn't on my own. There were soldiers there.

8 Q. But I take it when Momir Nikolic came up to you and gave you this

9 order, you complied with this order?

10 A. He didn't order me specifically, not me personally. The order,

11 who was I? I was a soldier.

12 Q. Okay. Well, how did the order come down? Because you say in

13 your -- in the information report: "Momir Nikolic directly asked me - you

14 know, asked him, meaning you - and those with him to go to Zepa."

15 A. Yes, he collected. He got the soldiers together, and we all got

16 into a truck, and then we went.

17 Q. Okay. But my question is based on your memory, it was

18 Momir Nikolic that gathered you all, put you on a truck and said: "You're

19 off to Zepa"?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right. And from my understanding today from listening to you,

22 that it was your impression that Momir Nikolic was a commander at the

23 time?

24 A. Until that time, he was -- yeah, at that time he was a chief in

25 the command. I don't know exactly.

Page 3144

1 Q. All right. A person of authority that could give orders?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. And -- all right. Now, in your proofing -- if we

4 could go to the other document, the proofing note, the notes that were

5 generated from the two days of meeting with the Prosecution to prepare you

6 for your testimony here today, here we have a different version. If we

7 look on the second page, and on the third paragraph you state that you

8 were told to go to the hill just above Bratunac.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I believe it's the fifth paragraph on the second page.

11 MR. WAESPI: Just to --

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi, your mic, please.

13 MR. WAESPI: Yes, thanks a lot. To clarify, earlier, he talked

14 about the Zepa detail from Mr. Nikolic, and now I guess he's talking about

15 the order to go to the hill. So when you say it's a different version,

16 you know, these are two different events.

17 MR. KARNAVAS:

18 Q. Let me clarify to make sure that you're not confused. I want to

19 talk to you about the fifth paragraph that's on the proofing notes, and it

20 relates to back on July 12th, 1995. At least, that's my understanding of

21 it. Here, you state that you were told -- that you and your colleagues

22 were told to go to the hill.

23 A. Yes, to a rock.

24 Q. Were they on sick leave as well with you when you were in

25 Bratunac?

Page 3145

1 A. No.

2 Q. You just met up with them in Bratunac? Is that it?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did they have, like you, a legitimate excuse not to be where they

5 were stationed?

6 A. Well, you know how it goes. It was one day on the positions,

7 another day at home, one day at the positions, the next day at home. So

8 there was no need for them to be at the positions.

9 Q. Okay. So they were just hanging around Bratunac.

10 A. They were off. They could be at home.

11 Q. All right. And you were off because you had an excuse, you know,

12 the sick leave.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. All right.

15 A. I didn't actually have sick leave. I just said I was sick, and I

16 went home.

17 Q. All right. You self-managed yourself?

18 A. Well, I reported there that I was sick, that I was not able to go

19 there. It was like that.

20 Q. Okay. Now, in your -- in the proofing notes, you say that later

21 that morning, you were told by the company commander Zoran or by Dule to

22 go to Potocari to secure a rock. It states that right there.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. Now, when you say "a rock," "to secure a rock," what

25 do you mean by that?

Page 3146

1 A. Just to be there at that rock. I mean, how do I know what that

2 meant to them?

3 Q. Okay. Now you say "Zoran." Which Zoran are you talking about?

4 A. Zoran, the waiter.

5 Q. All right. Now is it your understanding that Zoran --

6 A. And Dule.

7 Q. Now, Zoran the waiter, was he your company commander?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Who was your company commander?

10 A. This Dule.

11 Q. Is that Petar Dimitric? Wasn't he your commander? It's not in

12 there.

13 A. Petar Dimitric? No.

14 Q. What about Jovanovic [phoen], was he the deputy commander?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. But you think that this Zoran or Dule were your company commander?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Now Dule, does he have a name, a regular name?

19 A. No. No.

20 Q. Well, you have Like, right? That's your nickname? You have a

21 regular name, don't you?

22 A. Yes, Milan, yes.

23 Q. Well, Dule, is that a nickname?

24 A. Probably. I don't know. Dule.

25 Q. Okay. You served with this man?

Page 3147

1 A. He wasn't with us. He was in some house, but I was in the army

2 there with him in that brigade, in that company.

3 Q. Was he your commander or your deputy commander?

4 A. Commander.

5 Q. He was a commander?

6 A. Company commander, yes.

7 Q. He was the company commander for the 2nd Battalion. Is that it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you don't know his name?

10 A. No, I don't know.

11 Q. And he was --

12 A. Dule.

13 Q. Okay. How long was he the company commander, just so -- I just

14 want to...?

15 A. I don't know exactly. I wasn't there for a long time myself.

16 Q. Okay. And all this information with respect to Dule telling you

17 to go secure a rock, all of that is something that you told the

18 Prosecution yesterday or the day before for the first time. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right. And of course, today you told us that you were in

22 Srebrenica looting. Right?

23 A. After that, I didn't want to go to that rock, but I went home. So

24 I wasn't there at that rock. I went to see my house.

25 Q. Right. And that's where you were -- you went to Srebrenica to do

Page 3148

1 some looting, in addition to checking your house.

2 A. No, not for looting, but to go to see my house, to go and see my

3 house.

4 Q. But you were also looting for the four or five days that you were

5 in Srebrenica, were you not?

6 A. No, I wasn't looting. Why would I be looting? What would I be

7 looting with? I didn't even have a car or anything. I just took the

8 goat, and I found some rakija. Had I been looting, I would have something

9 now.

10 Q. Okay. The goat belonged to you?

11 A. On the road. I found it.

12 Q. And the horses, did they belong to you, the horses that you were

13 riding?

14 A. They were all released. They were all just let out.

15 Q. All right. Now, would you characterise yourself, sir, as a

16 well-disciplined soldier while you were serving with the Bratunac Brigade?

17 A. Why not?

18 Q. All right. Well, were you ever reprimanded for failure to take

19 orders?

20 A. Yes, I was.

21 Q. All right. So I take it that there were times when you were asked

22 to perform a particular task, and you, being who you are, would refuse?

23 A. I was never told by anybody to do anything. I was just a regular

24 soldier.

25 Q. Do you ever recall being asked to perform a certain task and

Page 3149

1 telling your commander or your komandir "no," refusing?

2 A. Well, I didn't go to that rock.

3 Q. Okay. All right. Let me show you what has been marked as D56/1

4 for identification.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: For the record, I'm going to be referring to an

6 English translation as -- though the pages are not -- they don't have

7 regular pages numbers. It's L0073227.

8 Q. And Mr. Milinkovic, if you could look at the top of the page, we

9 have some numbers. And it's 02158994. If you could turn to that page,

10 the last numbers should be 994. I believe it's the fourth page -- or

11 page 5, I believe. And I believe if you look at the bottom of the page,

12 there's a paragraph number 10. And in the English, it would be at the top

13 of the page, again, number 10. Paragraph number 10, if you could look at

14 that.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And -- okay. Now, do you recognise your name there?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. All right. And I take it you recognise some other names like

19 Mr. Bibic that you referred to today? He's there with you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay. Now, if you could kindly read that paragraph, number 10, to

22 yourself just to refresh your memory, refresh it, give it some help.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Have you read it? And the following paragraph, about the whole

25 incident, it goes on to the next page.

Page 3150

1 A. You don't see that. You can't see it.

2 Q. You cannot read it. Okay. Well, if you go on to the next page as

3 well, flip it over, page 6, the Prosecution -- by the way, sir,

4 Mr. Milinkovic, did the Prosecution share this with you yesterday and the

5 day before when they were preparing you to testify here today? They

6 didn't show you this? Okay. That's where we got it from.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, do you -- having read that, is this paragraph regarding this

9 incident dated, I believe, the 28th of August 1994, is it referring to the

10 same Milan Milinkovic who's here today?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So that would be you. Right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. All right. And it talks about you being charged with a crime of

15 insubordination, does it not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It talks about where you were given a direct order by your

18 commander, your immediate -- your komandir, and you refused that order.

19 Does it not?

20 A. Yes, we were supposed to go to some position somewhere. I don't

21 know.

22 Q. All right. And then the chief of staff, I believe, also gave the

23 order; and again, there was a refusal. Right?

24 A. Yes, we also quarreled with the commander.

25 Q. Well, that's my next question. Then even the commander himself

Page 3151

1 came down to give an order to you, the well-disciplined soldier that you

2 told us you were --

3 A. Not to me.

4 Q. All right. Well, did you not -- did the commander not ask you and

5 the others or order you and the others to comply with the order that had

6 been given earlier?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. And you were aware that your commander was ordering you.

9 Right?

10 A. To go somewhere, to some positions. I don't know exactly what it

11 was, but we didn't want to go.

12 Q. You didn't want to go. So you refused your komandir, your

13 immediate commander; you refused the chief of staff; and then you refused

14 the commander himself. You refused to follow the orders. Right?

15 A. I don't remember if we went when he ordered us to do so.

16 Q. Right. Well, it says here that you were charged with the crime of

17 insubordination, does it not?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And it also says that you refuse the commander himself, the

20 commander of the Bratunac Brigade, you refused to carry out that order.

21 And as a consequence, that is why you were charged with the crime of

22 insubordination. Isn't that a fact?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And so would it be fair to say, sir, that at least during those

25 days when you were serving at the Bratunac Brigade, there were times that

Page 3152

1 you just followed your own orders and did as you pleased and went where

2 you felt like going?

3 A. Yes, what did I want to do? The best thing that I liked to do was

4 to stay at home. I did not want to go to the positions. I didn't like

5 that.

6 Q. All right.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 Any cross-examination, Mr. Stojanovic?

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just want to ask

11 a couple of questions.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Milinkovic, good day. My name is

14 Miodrag Stojanovic, and I am defending Lieutenant Colonel Dragan Jokic.

15 I would like to ask you a few things. Do you personally know

16 Major Dragan Jokic?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you ever meet this person that you see here whom I say is

19 Major Dragan Jokic then but is lieutenant colonel now, in those few days,

20 in that period?

21 A. No, I never saw him.

22 Q. Did you ever see Dragan Jokic in that period of July 1993 doing

23 anything in Srebrenica or Bratunac?

24 A. No, I did not.

25 Q. Did you ever hear, if you did not see, that this man Dragan Jokic

Page 3153

1 did anything in that period in Bratunac or Srebrenica?

2 A. No, nothing. I did not.

3 Q. And one more question: Did you ever hear that in that period, in

4 July 1995, the engineering company from the Zvornik Brigade did anything

5 in Bratunac or Srebrenica?

6 A. No, I did not hear anything or see anything.

7 Q. And to end with just one more question: In the interview you had

8 with the investigators on the 29th of January 2003, you said that at the

9 time in July 1993, you were not in Kravica?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So you remain by that statement, that you were not in Kravica at

12 that time?

13 A. Yes, I stand by that statement that I was not in Kravica at the

14 time.

15 Q. And you don't know anything about those events in Kravica?

16 A. No, I do not.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no more

18 questions.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The correct date was

20 July 1995.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

22 Any redirect, Mr. Waespi?

23 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

25 Well, at this stage, are there any documents to tender through

Page 3154

1 this witness? Mr. Waespi.

2 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President. It's P144, that's the video

3 still; P145, another video still; P146, another one; P147, video still;

4 P148, that's the videoclip which has been previously tendered, the whole

5 segment; and P149, that's the map.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 Any objections? Mr. Karnavas.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no objections

9 except with respect to P149. I'm not quite sure how a foundation was laid

10 for the map to come in. Obviously, he indicated that first he couldn't

11 locate the place, and then he named one place. But I'm unclear why the

12 map becomes part of the evidence at this point.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, earlier, you know, we admitted all

14 the maps into the evidence. And we used this map, and the witness also

15 pointed out the position where he was at that time, although not that

16 accurate. But it's a place.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well --

18 JUDGE LIU: I don't think there's any big problem.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: I wasn't stating that there was a problem. I was a

20 little confused. But I think you've clarified my confusion, so I withdraw

21 my objection to that. And I have no objections to P144, 145, 146, 147,

22 148, and 149 to being admitted on behalf of the Prosecution.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

24 Mr. Stojanovic, any objections?

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Dragan Jokic's Defence has no

Page 3155

1 objections or any problems with any of these documents, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Those documents are admitted

3 into the evidence.

4 Are there any documents on the part of the Defence? Yes,

5 Mr. Karnavas.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. We would move for the

7 admission of D54/1, D55/1, and D56/1.

8 JUDGE LIU: Any objections, Mr. Waespi?

9 MR. WAESPI: We don't have an objection in relation to the last

10 document, D56. In relation to the two first ones, I thought these

11 wouldn't be exhibits since the witness is here to testify live.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. So the Document D56/1 is admitted into the

13 evidence. As for the other two documents, D54/1 and D55/1, are not

14 admitted into the evidence because as your practice, we have this witness

15 give the testimony here. And I believe that during the cross-examination,

16 the Defence counsel has already used those two documents extensively. It

17 is so decided.

18 Witness, thank you very much for coming to give your evidence. I

19 believe that we benefit a lot from your testimony. We wish you have a

20 nice trip back home. The usher will show you out of the room. Thank you

21 very much.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE LIU: Are there any protective measures for the next

25 witness?

Page 3156

1 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I believe there will be. The witness will be

2 led by Ms. Issa.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Would you please give us some information about

4 the protective measures, Ms. Issa.

5 MS. ISSA: Yes, good afternoon, Your Honour. I believe the

6 witness would like all the protective measures including pseudonym,

7 face distortion, and voice distortion.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I guess there's no objections from the Defence

9 team, so your request is granted. We will have a break and during the

10 time of the break, I believe the Registrar needs some technical

11 preparations, especially for the voice distortion. So we'll resume at

12 12.30.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.00 p.m.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 --- On resuming at 12.34 p.m.

16 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, witness. Can you hear me?

17 THE INTERPRETER: The B/C/S booth has technical problems.

18 JUDGE LIU: I'll try it again.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No Serbian interpretation.

20 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no interpretation.

22 JUDGE LIU: I'll try it again. Well, Witness, can you hear me?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

24 JUDGE LIU: Very well. Would you please make the solemn

25 declaration in accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you.

Page 3157

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 WITNESS: WITNESS P-188

4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

6 Before we start, I have to tell you that you have the right to

7 object to making any statement which might tend to incriminate yourself.

8 But however, the Chamber may compel you to answer the question. The

9 testimony compelled in this way shall not be used as evidence in a

10 subsequent prosecution against you for any offence other than the false

11 testimony. Do you understand that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa, the witness is yours.

14 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour. I should just say at the

15 outset, Your Honour, that I will be asking to go into private session at a

16 couple of times during the testimony.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please, just let us know when you need the

18 private session.

19 MS. ISSA: I will, Your Honour, thank you.

20 Examined by Ms. Issa:

21 Q. Good morning, sir.

22 A. Good morning.

23 Q. Now, sir, you and I met on Saturday in my office. Is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3158

1 Q. And at that time, sir, you were informed that you had a right to

2 remain silent and a right to counsel. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You indicated, sir, that you were willing to waive your right to

5 counsel and speak to us. Is that correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. You also indicated, sir, that you were prepared to testify in

8 Court without counsel. Is that correct?

9 A. That's correct.

10 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Issa, would you please inform us about this

11 witness's pseudonym.

12 MS. ISSA: If I could just have the Court's indulgence, Your

13 Honour.

14 P-188.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

16 MS. ISSA: Yes, Your Honour, I'm going to be asking that we go

17 into private session for the next few questions, please.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

19 [Private session]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 3159

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Page 3160

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Page 3161

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12 [redacted]

13 [Open session]

14 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in the open session.

15 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Now, sir, when you entered Potocari, were you attached to a

17 particular unit on the 12th of July 1995?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Why did you go to Potocari that day?

20 A. I was on my way to Srebrenica.

21 Q. And why were you on your way to Srebrenica?

22 A. To lock my flat, to lock my house, to keep my house from being

23 robbed and looted. There were lootings.

24 Q. You're referring to your house in Srebrenica?

25 A. Precisely.

Page 3162

1 Q. Is there any other reason, sir, that you went to the area that day

2 aside from being concerned about your house and wanting to lock it up?

3 A. No. No other reason.

4 Q. Can you tell us, sir, if there was anything special about the 12th

5 of July for you?

6 A. Well, there were many people in Potocari who had surrendered

7 there, who had surrendered in Potocari. It was strange to see so many

8 people gathered in one place.

9 Q. What I'm asking you, sir, is there anything of significance to you

10 about the day of 12 of July. Not necessarily 1995, but 12 of July. Is

11 there anything significant about the 12th of July 1992?

12 A. Yes. That's St. Peter's day. It's a Serb holiday, and my father

13 was killed on that day, too.

14 Q. All right. And can you tell us, sir, how he was killed.

15 A. First they killed him, then they set fire to him.

16 Q. And who are "they"?

17 A. The Muslims.

18 Q. All right, sir. And did your unit, sir, that you told us about

19 earlier take part in the operation on Srebrenica?

20 A. No, we were in Sarajevo.

21 Q. And getting back to when you entered Potocari on 12th of July

22 1995, can you describe how you were dressed.

23 A. NATO, American uniform.

24 Q. And why were you wearing a uniform that day, sir?

25 A. I was a soldier, wasn't I?

Page 3163

1 Q. You indicated earlier, sir, when you entered Potocari you were not

2 attached to a unit. Can you tell us why you were wearing a uniform.

3 A. Well, had I not been wearing a uniform, I would have been

4 captured, too.

5 Q. All right. It also appears, sir, from the photograph we've seen

6 earlier that you were entering Potocari with a group of people. Who is

7 this group of people?

8 A. Special police.

9 Q. Do you know the people individually, sir? Do you actually know

10 their names or who they are?

11 A. No.

12 Q. How long did you stay in Potocari when you first entered?

13 A. About two hours.

14 Q. And where did you go after that?

15 A. They wouldn't allow us into Srebrenica, so I went back to

16 Bratunac.

17 Q. When you returned to Bratunac, did you return on your own or with

18 other people?

19 A. I went back on horseback.

20 Q. All right. But did you return by yourself or were there others

21 that returned with you to Bratunac?

22 A. Most of the people returned.

23 Q. And did those people belong to the military or were they attached

24 to any particular units?

25 A. They were all soldiers.

Page 3164

1 Q. Do you know whether or not they were attached to any particular

2 units at the time?

3 A. Well, the military police. Mostly they were just ordinary

4 soldiers.

5 Q. Do you know whether or not -- what types of uniforms they were

6 wearing?

7 A. The police uniform and the Republika Srpska army uniform.

8 Q. All right. So where did you go next, sir, when you returned to

9 Bratunac?

10 A. I was on my way to Ljubovija, but I can't tell you when exactly.

11 Q. Did you go anywhere else when you returned to Bratunac?

12 A. I was walking around town, going to cafes, that kind of thing.

13 Q. Did you at any point, sir, celebrate the anniversary of your

14 father's death?

15 A. No. Well, yes, I did go to the cemetery. About 1.00, half past

16 1.00.

17 Q. And where did you go after -- or how long did you stay in Bratunac

18 that day, the 12th of July?

19 A. When I returned from the cemetery, I went straight to Ljubovija.

20 Q. And what did you do there?

21 A. Well, there were cafes that were staying open late over there, so

22 you used to go out there, whereas in Bratunac there was a curfew. And

23 Ljubovija was the place you went to for going out.

24 Q. All right. Did you at some point go back to Srebrenica?

25 A. On that day, you mean?

Page 3165

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. No.

3 Q. All right. Then turning, then, to the next day, the 13th of July,

4 did you on that day go to Srebrenica?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. When did you go to Srebrenica on that day, sir?

7 A. Before noon, in the early hours.

8 Q. And what did you do when you arrived at Srebrenica?

9 A. We were looting.

10 Q. All right. Aside from looting, did you -- is there anything else

11 that you did?

12 A. We were drinking, just walking around Srebrenica really.

13 Q. And when you say "we," sir, who are you referring to?

14 A. The whole town was full of people.

15 Q. Were you with anybody specific?

16 A. Well, not specifically, not anyone in particular.

17 Q. All right. Sir, did you at any point go back to see your house or

18 apartment in Srebrenica?

19 A. Well, that's where I was the whole time. I'd keep coming back all

20 the time, and I'd leave items or things there.

21 Q. Are these the items that you were looting?

22 A. Precisely.

23 Q. And how long, sir, did you stay in Srebrenica?

24 A. Until -- until the afternoon or evening.

25 Q. And where did you go after that?

Page 3166

1 A. To Bratunac.

2 Q. And what did you do in Bratunac?

3 A. The same thing as on the previous day, just that on that day, I

4 didn't go to the cemetery. We took some of the things that we had brought

5 over to Ljubovija by boat.

6 Q. And where did you spend the night of the 13th of July, sir?

7 A. My house at Mostanice.

8 Q. Did you at any point, sir, spend any time in jail?

9 A. Yes, in Ljubovija, but I can't give you the exact date. It was

10 the 13th, the 14th, or the 15th. However, this can be verified.

11 Q. All right. Turning then to the 14th of July, sir, where were you

12 on the 14th of July?

13 A. I left for Srebrenica.

14 Q. And what were you doing there that day?

15 A. I was walking around Srebrenica. The same thing as before. You

16 always did the same thing. Whatever was there to be picked up that was

17 worth your while, you would just take it. There was a car there, a Fico.

18 Q. All right.

19 Where did you spend the entire day, sir, on the 14th of July?

20 A. Srebrenica. Most of the day, I spent in Srebrenica. In the

21 evening, I was in Bratunac, and after that, I went to Ljubovija, late.

22 Q. Just very briefly, sir, getting back to when you first went to

23 Potocari on the 12th of July, I'm going to show you another photograph

24 marked P22, chapter 10, p2, can you identify the person in this

25 photograph, sir?

Page 3167

1 A. Milan Milinkovic, called Like.

2 Q. Was he with you, sir, when you entered Potocari?

3 A. Yes, he was.

4 Q. Were you with Milinkovic before entering Potocari?

5 A. No. Where -- if I was where?

6 Q. In Bratunac or anywhere else for that matter. Before you entered

7 Potocari.

8 A. No, no, not in Bratunac. Not in Bratunac. We met just before we

9 entered Potocari. On the road, there's a factory a bit further down the

10 road. That's where we met.

11 Q. All right.

12 A. It's a cement factory.

13 Q. All right.

14 Getting then back to the 15th of July, sir, can you tell us where

15 you were on that day?

16 A. Well, on that day, too, I was in Srebrenica.

17 Q. And what were you doing on that day, sir?

18 A. On that day --

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. -- well, we were in town, same as usual. I was walking about. I

21 was having fun. At that point, on the 15th, I think they ordered us out

22 of Srebrenica because they were supposed to throw some -- drop some powder

23 from a plane for bugs. And that's why the police told us to leave town.

24 Q. And who are you referring to when you say "us"?

25 A. I mean, the people from Srebrenica. Milinkovic was there, too.

Page 3168

1 Q. Were you with anyone else on the 15th of July, sir?

2 A. Well, I know those people, but I didn't exactly socialise with

3 them.

4 Q. Did you at some point have anybody visit you?

5 A. In Srebrenica?

6 Q. On that day, on 15th of July.

7 A. In Srebrenica, whether somebody visited us?

8 Q. Not necessarily in Srebrenica, sir, but on that day, 15th of July.

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you go -- on the 15th of July, sir, did you go anywhere else

11 other than Srebrenica?

12 A. Yes, to Ljubovija.

13 Q. Did you go to Bratunac on that day?

14 A. I had to pass through Bratunac.

15 Q. Did you have any friends come visit you in Bratunac?

16 A. No.

17 MS. ISSA: If I can just have the Court's indulgence for a moment.

18 Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Q. Sir, I understand that you gave the investigators a tape-recorded

20 statement, investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor, a

21 tape-recorded statement on the 18th of January 2003. Do you recall that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And sir, on Saturday when you met with me and the investigator,

24 you had a chance to review your statement. Isn't that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3169

1 Q. I'm going to show you a copy of the statement, sir, and ask you if

2 that refreshes your memory.

3 MS. ISSA: And Your Honour, I'm going to be referring to page 13,

4 lines 5 through 7 in the B/C/S portion.

5 Q. That's where you should look, sir.

6 MS. ISSA: And in the English version, Your Honour, I'm referring

7 to page 13, lines 23 through 25.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm familiar with this statement.

9 Q. Well, I'm going to be directing you, sir, to a particular portion.

10 And I misspoke. It's actually page 14, line 13 through 16 in the B/C/S

11 statement; and page 14, lines 4 through 8 in the English statement.

12 A. May I?

13 Q. Just read it to yourself, sir.

14 A. Can I say something.

15 Q. Well, normally, sir, I'm supposed to ask you questions and you're

16 supposed to answer them. Does this have anything to do with the

17 statement?

18 A. Yes, I've read everything.

19 Q. Okay. And do you recall meeting some friends in Bratunac on that

20 day, sir?

21 A. I mixed up the dates. You asked me -- I can't remember. That day

22 came back from Sarajevo, that day, the Panthers came back from Sarajevo,

23 the whole unit came back from Sarajevo that day. So on that day, I met up

24 with my brother and all of the Panthers.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 3170

1 And do you know if any of those Panthers are from Bratunac?

2 A. There were just four or five of us from Bratunac.

3 Q. Turning then to the 16th of July, sir, where were you on that day?

4 A. I was in Srebrenica with my brother on that day. And that day, we

5 went to the field in Brcko. We visited Srebrenica, he went to look at his

6 apartment. And that day, our 110 came, and so together we went out in the

7 field.

8 Q. Did you go to Branjevo farm on the 16th of July, sir?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Were you at Pilica on the 16th of July?

11 A. I passed through Pilica.

12 Q. Were you in Zvornik on that day?

13 A. I passed through Zvornik.

14 Q. Did you tell investigators, sir, when they first interviewed you

15 that you were never in Pilica and Zvornik?

16 A. Yes. But I did pass through those places. I passed through them

17 five thousand times. I couldn't reach Bijeljina without going through

18 Zvornik and Pilica.

19 Q. So are you telling us, sir, that you lied to the investigators

20 when they asked you those questions?

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I object. The question assumes facts

25 not in evidence. He indicated that he passed through, so I believe that

Page 3171

1 the question should be rephrased.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't see there's any problems.

3 You may proceed, Ms. Issa.

4 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. So the question was, sir, that you lied to the investigators when

6 you told them that you weren't in Pilica and Branjevo farm on the 16th of

7 July 1995. Is that correct?

8 A. I don't understand the question.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: And Your Honour, I don't mean to be hypertechnical,

10 but I was forbidden from using the word "lie" when they had their star

11 witness here, Momir Nikolic. And so now the Prosecution is using that

12 word. So for consistency purposes -- I don't object to the word "lie,"

13 but if I can't use it, neither should they.

14 JUDGE LIU: You are right. Ms. Issa, better use "false

15 statement," rather than "lie."

16 MS. ISSA: I certainly will, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: Other language is indiscreet.

18 MS. ISSA: I take your point, Your Honour.

19 Q. You gave a false statement, sir, to the investigator. Isn't that

20 correct?

21 A. When I gave my statements, was I there at all?

22 Q. All right. Well, I'm going to read you questions from your

23 statement, sir.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I don't mean to interrupt.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

Page 3172

1 MR. KARNAVAS: But if the Prosecution could at least give the

2 witness an opportunity to look at the particular portion of the statement

3 to see whether he accepts that version of the events that are being

4 described as opposed to impeaching the witness at this point. That's what

5 it would appear, because he hasn't committed one way or the other, and

6 perhaps if he could be shown and directed see whether he recognises being

7 asked a question and then giving the answer, I think that would be more

8 fair to the witness.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, that's a good point.

10 Ms. Issa, just point that particular paragraph and ask the witness

11 to read it first. Then you could ask your question.

12 MS. ISSA: Certainly, Your Honour.

13 Q. Sir, I'm going to refer you to page 23 - this is in the 18 January

14 2003 statement that you gave - page 23, lines 22 to 24 in the B/C/S

15 version.

16 MS. ISSA: And in the English version, Your Honour, it's page 22,

17 lines 24 through 26 and following.

18 Q. I'm also, sir, going to refer you to -- first of all, tell us if

19 that assists you in refreshing your memory.

20 A. Well, they asked me the same question there, whether I was in

21 Pilica, and I said no, I was never there. I was never there. They asked

22 whether I had been in Pilica on the 16th of July. I just passed through,

23 but I never was in Pilica.

24 Q. All right. So you're firmly telling us, sir, that you were not in

25 Pilica on the 16th of July other than passing through. Is that your

Page 3173

1 evidence?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you in Zvornik on that day other than passing through?

4 A. No.

5 Q. All right, sir. I'm going to show you a map.

6 MS. ISSA: P154, Your Honour.

7 Q. And I would like you, so we can see the places that we're talking

8 about here, show us where you were on that day.

9 A. I arrived at Brcko.

10 Q. We're going to be using a pointer, and I'm going to ask you to

11 point out Brcko. If that can be moved down, please.

12 All right. So for the record, you're pointing out Brcko. Can you

13 now point out Zvornik for us, sir.

14 A. [Indicates]

15 Q. All right. So for the record, the witness has pointed out

16 Zvornik.

17 Can you point out Pilica.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. For the record, Your Honour, the witness has pointed out Pilica.

20 And I should say that this map is approximately to scale, and Brcko is

21 approximately 140 kilometres away from Zvornik, and Pilica is under 40

22 kilometres from Zvornik.

23 So you're telling us, sir, that you were that far away from

24 Zvornik on that day. Is that your evidence?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3174

1 Q. I think for the next few questions, Your Honour, I'd like to go

2 into private session, please.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

4 [Private session]

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Page 3175

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Page 3178

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18 [Open session]

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:

20 Q. Good morning, sir.

21 A. Good day.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, this witness is a protected

23 witness. And you have to turn off your mic when you finish your question.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.

25 Q. Sir, you did not serve in the Bratunac Brigade back in July 1995.

Page 3179

1 Is that correct?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. In fact, you were with the Panthers, and I think it was from 1992

4 until well past the fall of Srebrenica in 1995. Is that correct?

5 A. I changed two to three units, but I was there very briefly. I

6 spent the longest period of time in the Panthers.

7 Q. And back in July 1995, in particular, around -- between the 12th

8 of July 1995 to, say, the 20th of July 1995, you had nothing to do with

9 the Bratunac Brigade. Isn't that correct?

10 A. I had my own pass which I got from Ljubisa Savic. So I just had

11 this pass that was controlled or checked by the military police, and they

12 would let me through.

13 Q. Now, your father was killed on July 12th, 1992, which is

14 also -- that day is known as St. Peter's Day. Correct?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. And as it's usual, every year on that particular date there would

17 be a memorial service of sorts for you and your family with respect to

18 your father. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes. And this was done each year.

20 Q. Now, you had a brother that was also serving in the Panthers along

21 with you?

22 A. Yes, I still have a brother.

23 Q. But he was in the Panthers at the time along with you?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. And both of you had made a request to go to Bratunac for the

Page 3180

1 memorial service for your father, but only you received a pass.

2 A. Yes, Mauzer said that we should decide amongst ourselves for only

3 one of us to go because the other soldiers might complain because there

4 were others who also wanted to go home.

5 Q. And that's how you came to Bratunac, I believe, on July 11th,

6 1995.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then that's where I believe your mother was staying at the

9 time.

10 A. She lived there. She lived in Ljubovija. Actually, she worked in

11 Fontana, and she began to work in Bratunac.

12 Q. You're originally from Srebrenica, are you not?

13 A. Born there, yes.

14 Q. And that's where you had your house?

15 A. A flat.

16 Q. And of course that's one of the reasons why you went to

17 Srebrenica, to check your flat?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And the other reason was for you along with your friends was to do

20 some looting because the opportunity presented itself?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And I take it while you were in Srebrenica, looting, you must have

23 been there with some of your friends that you had grown up with or knew

24 from Srebrenica, such as Like?

25 A. No.

Page 3181

1 Q. You didn't see him at the time while you were there?

2 A. I did see him, but he spent time with other people. And those

3 were not the same people that I socialised with.

4 Q. All right. Now, you saw yourself on video, on July 12th, 1995.

5 Right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were there on your own?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The Panthers weren't there?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You were never given any orders to go to Potocari?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You were never given any orders to separate the men from the women

14 and children?

15 A. I didn't do that.

16 Q. I didn't ask you whether you did it. I'm asking you whether you

17 received any orders.

18 A. No.

19 Q. You didn't receive any orders to participate in any of the events

20 that were taking place in Potocari on that day. Is that correct?

21 A. Can you please repeat the question.

22 Q. You did not receive any orders to participate in any activity that

23 went on in Potocari on that particular day, July 12th, 1995?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And in fact, if we are to accept your testimony, you did not

Page 3182

1 receive any orders for the 13th or the 14th or the 15th to do anything

2 with respect to anyone who was located in Potocari?

3 A. Personally, I didn't receive any kind of orders.

4 Q. And I take it you did not receive any orders with respect to

5 anyone who might have been situated or detained in Bratunac on the 12th or

6 the 13th or the 14th of July 1995?

7 A. I don't understand your question.

8 Q. Well, I believe you had indicated when you had given a statement

9 that you were able to observe, I believe, on the 13th or the 14th of July

10 that there were men in buses being detained in Bratunac. Do you recall

11 that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. But you were not involved in those activities?

14 A. I wasn't.

15 Q. And you did not receive any orders to participate in those

16 activities?

17 A. I didn't.

18 Q. And the Panthers were not involved, at least as far as you know,

19 with respect to those activities?

20 A. They weren't.

21 Q. Now, you did indicate, I believe, in one of your statements that

22 you believe from your observations in Potocari, that Mladic was running

23 the show. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes. I did notice him in the video footage. There was a yellow

25 tape where UNPROFOR units were. And about 15 minutes later, Mladic came.

Page 3183

1 Q. So just for clarification purposes, did you see Mladic in Potocari

2 on the 12th while you were there, or did you see him in the video? Which

3 of the two?

4 A. I saw him on the 12th.

5 Q. Okay. When you were there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And from your observations of seeing him over there, is that how

8 you came to the conclusion which you gave to the Prosecution, that Mladic

9 was running the operation that was taking place in Potocari on that

10 particular day?

11 A. Well, it's a difficult question for me. I'm just an ordinary

12 soldier, whereas Mladic was a general commanding the whole army. So...

13 Q. All right. I understand that. But it was my impression that you

14 indicated that he took it all in his hands and was commanding all of the

15 units that were there. Do you recall making a statement to that effect to

16 the Prosecution in your statement that you gave back in 15 March, 2001?

17 A. Well, I did read through those statements yesterday, but I can't

18 remember every single thing.

19 Q. All right. Do you recall giving the statement back in 2001? It

20 was a tape-recorded statement. Do you recall giving that statement?

21 A. On the 12th of July, which year did you say?

22 Q. 2001.

23 A. In Banja Luka, yes, I do remember that.

24 Q. Okay. And did you have an opportunity to look at it yesterday?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3184

1 Q. Okay. And did you actually look at it and read it?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. Okay. Do you recall being asked this question and giving the

4 following answers --

5 MS. ISSA: I'm sorry, could counsel please refer to the page

6 number.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm about to do so. And I'm referring to page 17,

8 and I was going to start with line 1. For the record, I'm reading what

9 we'll mark for right now as D57/1 for identification purposes. And if we

10 do have a B/C/S version, I can direct the gentleman to it. It would be

11 page 15.

12 Q. If you could look at that -- if you could look at page 16, at the

13 top part, all the way to line 15 or so. You've read it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. All right. Do you see now where you've indicated that it was your

16 understanding that General Mladic was making all of the decisions and

17 commanding all of those units?

18 A. But that was my understanding of the situation.

19 Q. That's all I'm asking for. Based on what you saw --

20 A. That's just an assumption.

21 Q. Okay. Was that assumption made on the basis of what you saw, or

22 were you just saying anything that came to the top of your head when you

23 were giving this interview?

24 A. No. When he came, everyone obeyed him. He was saying something,

25 and everyone just gathered around him instantly, and they were all

Page 3185

1 listening to him, the commanders.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Karnavas, please.

3 MR. KARNAVAS:

4 Q. And from your observation, you were under the impression that

5 Mladic was in control and commanding all of these units?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, you were in Srebrenica off and on -- or I should say

8 Bratunac, Srebrenica off and on during the July 12th, 13th, 14th, and

9 15th. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You would stay at home with your mother. Right? That's where you

12 were living at the time?

13 A. We lived in Bratunac.

14 Q. Okay. And then you would go to Srebrenica during the day. Right?

15 A. That's right.

16 Q. Have some fun with your friends, visit your house, do a little bit

17 of looting, drink some rakija. Right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Then go back to Bratunac, but then go off to Ljubovija because

20 that's where the nightlife was?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do a little more partying, a little more drinking, and then go

23 back to mom's for a little more sleep. Right?

24 A. I'd go back to my own place, yes.

25 Q. Your own place. Okay. Basically, that was the routine you had

Page 3186

1 for all of those days up until the morning of the 16th. Right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. Then on the morning of the 16th, I believe that is when

4 your unit, the Panthers, came to Bratunac and you saw them.

5 A. No, not units. Only the lads who were from Bratunac came, and the

6 units had left for Bijeljina first, and then left for Brcko.

7 Q. You're right. And one of the lads was your brother? Right? One

8 of the lads from Brcko?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And so you and the lads at some point got into a truck to take you

11 to Brcko. Is that correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Now, and this was on the 16th?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And I believe that you left Bratunac sometime in the morning of

16 the 16th, or mid-morning?

17 A. I can't remember the exact time.

18 Q. Now, in order to go from Bratunac to Brcko, you have to

19 pass -- the road passes by Zvornik. Right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Then if you go past Zvornik, a few kilometres away, there's

22 Pilica. Right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And in fact, right on the road is where there's the dom kultura

25 of Pilica, or are you aware of that?

Page 3187

1 A. No, I'm not.

2 Q. And before you get to Pilica, there's a turn that you would take

3 that would be on the left side, and you would go up a small hill, and that

4 would take you to Branjevo farm. Isn't that correct?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. All right. And then if you continued on the road, you would end

7 up in Bijeljina. Right?

8 A. There's only the main road. You don't turn off anywhere.

9 Q. Right. You would take -- you would stay on the road, pass

10 Zvornik, you continue, it takes you to Bijeljina. Right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And that's where you have to make a turn to go towards Brcko.

13 A. We go to our barracks.

14 Q. All right. But as I understand it, you were heading towards Brcko

15 because that's the orders that you and the lads had gotten. Right?

16 A. Wherever you went on a mission, you had to report to the barracks,

17 and the barracks was in Bijeljina. And it was from Bijeljina that I later

18 went to Brcko.

19 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, it's time for the break.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: One or two more questions.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, please.

22 MR. KARNAVAS:

23 Q. Now, let me get my thought again. Okay. Now when you

24 went -- when you left -- when you left Bratunac on that particular

25 morning, when you say "the lads," we're talking about the lads from Brcko.

Page 3188

1 Right? I mean from Bratunac?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So all of you were dressed in soldiers' uniforms?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Carrying your weapons?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you were heading from Bratunac through Brcko, passing through

8 Zvornik and passing through Pilica. Right?

9 A. How should I first go through Brcko and then pass through

10 Zvornik? I don't quite understand your question.

11 Q. You're going through Brcko and then --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Karnavas, please.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain using a map if you

14 like.

15 MR. KARNAVAS:

16 Q. I understand the geography. You had to go to Brcko, but first you

17 had to pass through Zvornik. Right?

18 A. There's only one road there. There's no other road really.

19 Q. And that road takes you by Pilica?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. And the time that it would take you to go from Bratunac to

22 Zvornik, how long would it take?

23 A. About 50 minutes.

24 Q. And then another 5 minutes or so from Zvornik to get to Pilica?

25 A. I don't know.

Page 3189

1 Q. And as far as you're concerned, the medical records stating that

2 you were in that vicinity on the 16th of are incorrect?

3 A. That's true.

4 Q. One last question: When you and the lads from Bratunac of the

5 Panthers were on their way to go to Brcko, were there any members with you

6 from the Bratunac Brigade that were also heading towards Brcko?

7 A. No, we were picked up by our lorry that had arrived from

8 Bijeljina.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I have no more further questions for

10 this witness.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Ms. Issa.

12 MS. ISSA: I do have one question, Your Honour, if I can just have

13 a moment's indulgence.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Issa, I think you finished your direct

15 examination.

16 MS. ISSA: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I couldn't hear you.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, I just want to ask, your question is addressed

18 to me or to the witness? If to the witness, I think you are finished your

19 question, your direct.

20 MS. ISSA: I thought Your Honour was asking me whether or not I

21 had any re-examination questions.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, not yet. It's time for the break. Maybe

23 tomorrow you still have the chance.

24 MS. ISSA: All right. Certainly, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

Page 3190

1 Well, Witness, I'm afraid you have to be here in The Hague for

2 another day. And during your stay here, you're under the oath. So do not

3 talk to anybody about your testimony, and do not let anybody talk to you

4 about it. Do you understand that?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

6 JUDGE LIU: And please remain seated. And later on, the usher

7 will show you out of the room.

8 We'll resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in the same courtroom.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of

11 October, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.

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