1 Wednesday, 29 October 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Call the case,
6 please, Mr. Court Deputy.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Before we start, are there any matters
10 that the parties would like to bring to the attention of this Bench?
11 Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you. Yesterday as I
13 understand that when Mr. Petrovic was testifying, Mr. Londrovic, the
14 gentleman who had visited Mr. Petrovic down to try to get a statement from
15 him with respect to Mr. Nikolic produced a statement that would seem to
16 have been provided to him by the Office of the Prosecution regarding
17 another investigation with respect to Muslim attacks and the killing of
18 his father and brother. We have not been produced with that document. I
19 don't know how it is that they, that is the Londrovic team was provided
20 with that. I can only assume they were provided in order to establish
21 motive, that if somebody lost a brother and a father, obviously they would
22 want to kill Muslims if that person happened to be Serb. That must be the
23 motive behind that. And I think, one, it is improper to be giving that
24 sort of information to one counsel and not to others. Now, I understand
25 it's another case, however, it impacts this case. And I think there is a
1 sense of unfairness in this process. And perhaps that is why the
2 Prosecution at times feels that I am attacking them. I am merely seeking
3 the truth. I am not attacking anyone. But when they're going to produce
4 documents for one side, they have to do it for other.
5 I was totally unaware that Mr. Petrovic had ever been questioned
6 by OTP because we were never provided with a statement. He was questioned
7 about a totally different matter. I am not suggesting that they should
8 not have produced it to Londrovic and company, in order so that they could
9 shellac the witnesses the way they did yesterday. But it is fair game in
10 this adversarial system, I guess, but if they're going to do it to one
11 side, they have to give it to us as well. So I'm asking for that.
12 The Prosecution anticipated my other request which was the
13 production of the transcript. I appreciate it. I haven't had a chance to
14 look it over, but I did read the pertinent part from [redacted].
15 So those are the two matters that I wish to bring at this point,
16 Your Honour. And I would like to know whether the Prosecution is prepared
17 to produce that document to us, that is, the Petrovic document. And I'll
18 leave it at that for now.
19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I believe that whenever you ask
20 for a document, you have to show us the relevance of this document to this
21 case. I don't think you elaborated too much on that point. I think
22 that's the most important issue.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: All right. How is it, Your Honour, how is it that
24 Londrovic knew of this investigation that was done in the Muslim case?
25 How is it that the Prosecution gives it to them in order for them to use
1 it against Mr. Petrovic. How is it that when I indicated initially that I
2 had a statement from Mr. Petrovic, we received a particular response to
3 the Prosecution, which I'm prepared to read with respect to his comments,
4 and that is: Almost to a single person in the VRS army has denied the
5 Srebrenica incident. I think it's terribly important for us to have that.
6 But aside from that, even if there's no linkage, what I'm doing here at
7 every step of the way, and what I will continue to do, is show that the
8 investigation in this case is not as objective as the Prosecution would
9 want us to believe. I think I'm perfectly entitled to do that, because if
10 they have pursued the investigation in a subjective manner, then obviously
11 it calls into question, you know, what is available out there. Because we
12 need to be mindful that there is no such thing in this Tribunal as
13 equality of arms. There is none. And anybody who says that is absolutely
14 talking nonsense. I don't have seven years to investigate a case. I
15 don't have the resources. Unfortunately we have an adversarial system.
16 We're not on a continental system where we have an objective,
17 investigative Judge who is going to be investigating for both sides.
18 However, I think it has been well said that the Prosecution in this case
19 should behave and act as if they are the minister of justice.
20 And so if they have those tools and those resources, they simply
21 cannot, you know, look -- shy away from exculpatory information. This is
22 part of my entire argument that they are engaging in tactics which I
23 believe sometimes to be less than proper in getting to the truth. So I
24 don't want to be sabotaged. I don't want to be engaged in guerilla
25 warfare. I'm not suggesting we're there yet but we may be getting to that
2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I believe on your part you have to
3 regard the intention of the other party with bona fide. Let me show you
4 an example. Yesterday we conducted a closed session hearing our witness.
5 It is the Prosecution who takes the initiative to ask for those
6 transcripts to disclose to you.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand, Your Honour, however, the Prosecution
8 was quite apt in pointing out that Karnavas would be asking for it. I'm
9 grateful that he did that, but he knew that there would be an incoming
10 request. And I'm not saying that he wouldn't have done otherwise, but all
11 I'm suggesting, Your Honour, is that there was a strong reaction by the
12 Prosecution when I first mentioned Petrovic. Nikolic, who's testified on
13 their behalf, initially made a statement back in April. There has not
14 been one single effort since then to contact Petrovic, not one single
15 effort to contact [redacted]to see whether, you know, their versions of
16 the event coincide with Nikolic. One would expect that the Prosecution,
17 if they were so interested in the truth, that they would at least go back
18 and say, "Hey [redacted], you never mentioned anything about this.
19 What do you have to say? Mr. Petrovic, you're available, you're being
20 accused of killing six people, what do you have to say?" No, it is the
21 Defence that is going out there and doing that. And that's their
22 attitude, the Defence can go out there and do it. All I'm suggesting is
23 that when I see someone like Mr. Londrovic using a statement provided to
24 them, it's like giving gasoline and saying pour it on the fire. It is a
25 tactic which I would expect if I were back home in the United States,
1 because it's more like a blood sport being in court. Unfortunately,
2 that's what we have in the United States and that's not what we have here
3 and that's not what I want to get into. We have different rules,
4 different approaches. The courts here do not sanction the Prosecution.
5 They do not -- they're not willing to keep evidence out if the disclosure
6 material is late, because we cannot do that. I understand that. So the
7 only tools that I have is my voice. The only tool is for me to jump up
8 and ask for a bit of fairness. That's all I'm asking.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, you have to understand that the
10 Prosecution has the obligation to disclose any documents which might be
11 favouring to your client. This is what the Rules say. But, on the other
12 hand, Prosecution is not the investigators of your team. You have to
13 understand that.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: I do, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE LIU: And I hope you regard the intention of the other party
16 with bona fide.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: I have thus far, Your Honour. I only call them
18 into question when I think I need to.
19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, do you think you could disclose
20 that statement to Mr. Karnavas and to other Defence in this case?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: No problem, Mr. President. Mr. Karnavas had asked
22 me for that last night, of course I would have given it to him. I thought
23 we had given it to everyone. Janet tells me we didn't. I can explain how
24 those documents -- they resulted from, of course, the Court's request and
25 I don't think it's appropriate for me at this point to go into it any more
1 of that. I can talk to Mr. Karnavas off the record, as we do frequently,
2 and talk about that.
3 Regarding some of the other matters he mentioned, I think there
4 was three or four allegations in there. I'm not going to get into that.
5 I will just try to ignore it. If there is going to be attacks on the
6 Prosecution, there should at least be a foundation for it. And I don't
7 see any yet. Thank you.
8 JUDGE LIU: So, Mr. Karnavas, your request is granted.
9 And by the way, could I ask you how long are you going to take to
10 cross-examine the present witness?
11 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Your Honour, I don't believe I'm going to
12 take that long, but I do understand we don't have any other witnesses for
13 the rest of the day.
14 JUDGE LIU: No.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I understand we don't have any.
16 JUDGE LIU: But that doesn't mean that you can prolong your
18 MR. KARNAVAS: That wasn't my intention, Your Honour. I'm very
19 mindful of the Court's time and I strive for efficiency and precision. I
20 rarely hit the target, but I believe, based on my estimation, I should be
21 through before the close of the first -- well, probably by the first
22 break, one hour, maybe slightly less. I don't know. But I'll try to be
24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
25 Mr. Karnavas, I understand you prepared very well for the
1 cross-examination and your questions has some points in it. We appreciate
2 your effort in this aspect. But sometimes your style, you add a lot of
3 words, which we believe is not necessary in your question, which first, is
4 easily to offend the other party; secondly, it will confuse the witness.
5 Certainly sometimes you lose your point. So try to put the simplest
6 question to the witness and try to avoid unnecessary conflictions between
7 the parties in the proceedings.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. I will try to limit my
9 adjectives and adverbs and I'll take the admonition and work accordingly.
10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
11 Well, could we have the witness, please.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE LIU: I apologise to you that you sat too long yesterday. I
16 think you have to understand that you are a valuable witness and this
17 Trial Chamber just wants to take advantage of your presence in The Hague
18 to make better use of the time available. I hope you could understand
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I fully understand that. It wasn't
21 really a problem. It was a bit strenuous, but it was all right in the
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Are you ready to start, Witness?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
1 Mr. Karnavas.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 WITNESS: WITNESS P-138 [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas: [Continued].
6 Q. Good morning, sir.
7 A. Good morning to you, too.
8 Q. We left off yesterday while we were describing the location of the
9 duty officer's room. Do you recall that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And in fact, I believe you testified that from where you were
12 located in the duty officer's room on that particular morning the way it's
13 situated, you could not see who was walking into the building?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All right. Now, just to confirm that, I would like to show you
16 what has been marked for identification purposes as D-70/1.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: And accompanying with that, Your Honour, is
18 D-70.1/1 and we have it translated. And I believe the D-70.1/1 gives an
19 explanation as to where the diagram came from on page 2, Your Honour.
20 Q. If you could look at the first two pages, which would be the
21 ground floor with where it's marked 1 and 2 being on the far right and 4
22 and 3, what's marked as rooms 4 and 3 being on the far left. Could you
23 please take a look at that. Do you see it? And if you just look at that
24 ground floor and see if it fairly reflects the outline of that floor as
25 you remember it or as it was, I should say, back then on July 1995. Is
1 this a fair representation of it?
2 A. Under number 2 is the duty officer's room for the brigade, the
3 operations room.
4 Q. All right. Right. And that's what I wanted to get to. So it is
5 actually -- number 1 faces the gateway as you walk into the building. If
6 you were in number 1 and you were looking outside the window, you would be
7 facing the gateway, would you not? Room number 1.
8 A. I'm not certain if there's a window in that room facing the
9 gateway, room number 1, but I know that the entrance to the building faces
10 the gateway.
11 Q. Okay. And from room number 2 for certain, you could not see who
12 was coming into the building if you were in that room?
13 A. The narrow side, the flank of the building from the facade to the
14 right of number 2, that's where the windows were. There are no windows on
15 this side. There is only the door leading to another room, which was not
16 the duty room.
17 Q. All right. So my answer -- my question is: Once you are inside
18 the duty officer's room, you cannot see the way it's laid out, as it has
19 been fairly depicted in this diagram, anyone coming into the building.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, when you got the call from Mr. Nikolic to replace him at
23 3.30, I take it you went into the duty officer's room, did you not?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you remained there until your shift was over?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And one of your duties is to answer the phone; right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, while you were there from the period of 3.30 to 7.00, you
5 never saw your commander, Colonel Blagojevic, did you?
6 A. No, I didn't.
7 Q. And he never called you, did he?
8 A. No, he didn't.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm having a problem hearing, although I
10 understand ...
11 Q. And you never went to the commander's office, to your commander's
12 office prior to taking your post -- prior taking over for Momir Nikolic,
13 did you? In other words --
14 A. No. I didn't go to the commander's office prior or after taking
16 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm having some technical difficulties, Your
18 Q. Now, would it be fair to say that you didn't know where your
19 commander was at the time the telephone call came in at approximately 7.00
20 in the morning?
21 A. I don't know where the commander was then, but Nikolic may have
22 conveyed this to me orally when I was taking over from him. So perhaps I
23 could have known, but I can't quite remember, so I can't say.
24 Q. Are you suggesting that at 3.30 in the morning Mr. Nikolic would
25 have conveyed to you that your commander is upstairs meeting with people
1 at that hour of the night?
2 A. It's possible that he did. I can't remember.
3 Q. All right. Is there anywhere in your statement that you say that
4 Nikolic gave you any instructions or gave you any information with respect
5 to any meeting going on in the hours of 3.30 a.m. on that particular
7 A. I don't know if he told me or not. His duty was to record all
8 information that he had received in the duty operations book, logbook.
9 Q. All right. Do you recall ever reading in the duty operations book
10 anything in there that Colonel Blagojevic was having a meeting at 3.30 in
11 the morning or 4.30 in the morning or 5.30 in the morning or 6.30 in the
12 morning or 7.00 while you were sitting there filling in for Momir Nikolic?
13 And it's yes or it's no. Not a maybe. Do you recall ever seeing
14 anything of the sort?
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: [Previous translation continues] ... Objection,
18 Your Honour, demanding a yes or no question is not a fair way to go.
19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas --
20 MR. KARNAVAS: It's cross-examine, Your Honour. It's --
21 JUDGE LIU: I understand. But you have to lay some foundations if
22 there's a meeting there or there's an allegation of the meeting between
23 3.00 to 7.00, then you ask this question.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: All right, Your Honour.
25 Q. Do you know whether a meeting was scheduled, sir, at 3.30, 4.30,
1 5.30, 6.30 or 7.00 in the morning at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters
2 while you were filling in?
3 A. No. I don't know whether any meeting was supposed to be held,
4 especially at that time during the time.
5 Q. And once you got -- before you went to take up and fill in for
6 Momir Nikolic as duty officer, you did not see any officers coming in,
7 including your commander, Colonel Blagojevic. Isn't that a fact?
8 A. No, I didn't.
9 Q. You didn't see any high-ranking officers coming in that night --
10 those early hours. Right?
11 A. No. I didn't see anyone entering the building.
12 Q. All right. Okay. So as you sit here today, as you sit here
13 today, you cannot point to anything concrete that would help us and help
14 you verify that Colonel Blagojevic was inside -- upstairs in his office
15 conducting a meeting with people from up there, can you, sir?
16 A. I have nothing related to that. I didn't see anyone, therefore I
17 can't say who was where at the time.
18 Q. All right. Now, we're going to get to the intercept, but first I
19 want to discuss a little bit about your interview with respect to the
20 intercept. As I understand it, when you were questioned by the
21 Prosecution they had suggested, as a result of the conversation that took
22 place with the intercept, that you were coordinating, that the police were
23 coordinating the refugees being evacuating. Do you recall that?
24 A. I didn't understand this question.
25 Q. All right. When you were speaking with the Prosecutor, did there
1 not come a time when he asked you or that he said that the police were
2 coordinating it and telling the General -- telling the -- that the police
3 were coordinating the evacuation process, meaning that the military police
4 were coordinating the evacuation process. Do you recall the Prosecutor
5 telling you that?
6 A. I don't recall him telling me that.
7 Q. Okay. Well, if you could look at page 83. It might be at the
8 bottom of page 82, actually in your -- but I'm going to read on, from page
9 83, line 1 to 2. But you may want to look at the last two lines of the
10 previous page, and for the English version it will be page 82, line 21,
11 and I'm reading from your statement which has been marked for
12 identification purposes as D-68/1.
13 And if you could read to yourself first all the way to perhaps
14 line 11 on page 83, from 1 to 11.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry. In the English, I'm --
16 MR. KARNAVAS: In the English it's page 82, starting with line 21
17 going all the way to page 83, to line 7.
18 Q. Do you see that? Do you see that, sir, where there's a suggestion
19 by the Prosecutor --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And in fact, you correct him and you tell him that you were not
22 coordinating. Right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. You don't need to look at the statement anymore. I'm just
25 going to ask you a few questions. And in fact during that exchange, he
1 had suggested that you were coordinating because you were a commander of
2 the -- or the chief of the military police, and you were having a
3 conversation with a general with respect to the evacuation. Right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And at that point, you told him that you were not coordinating but
6 you were merely having this conversation as a result of a telephone call
7 coming in into the duty office while you were the duty officer. Right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And that you were not responding to the general in your capacity
10 as the chief of the military police, but rather, in your capacity as the
11 duty officer. Right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. And so had you been, for instance, the deputy assistant of
14 logistics or the chief engineer of the engineering department, at that
15 moment in time --
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, the issue is very clear.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.
18 JUDGE LIU: You don't have to confuse the witness.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Very well, Your Honour.
20 Q. All right. Now -- and then at some point Mr. McCloskey who had
21 come into the court, into the room --
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm going to --
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Again, we're going back to going over a statement.
25 This witness, I believe, will answer the questions and probably say what
1 he said before, but just going over the statement is really not relevant
2 unless this witness can't answer or doesn't remember, and that hasn't been
3 established. It would be much quicker if he would ask the questions.
4 JUDGE LIU: Up to now I believe that Mr. Karnavas did pretty good.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE LIU: But I don't know what the following question is.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: We don't know because I haven't asked it. And I
8 don't see, unless he's clairvoyant, Your Honour, how he can know. Right
9 now I'm going into the aspect of "up there," that issue.
10 JUDGE LIU: Now, Mr. Karnavas, try to ask a direct question to
11 this witness and do not involve the other party if unnecessary in your
13 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, it is necessary because it is the
14 Prosecutor himself who is asking these questions.
15 JUDGE LIU: Everybody knows because we got transcripts. You don't
16 have to emphasise this point. Just put the question.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, it's for the witness's benefit, Your Honour,
18 but okay, very well, I'll move on.
19 Q. You then had -- you were then asked about -- you were asked to
20 give an interpretation of this intercept. Do you remember?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. And your interpretation then was different from your
23 interpretation in this courtroom. Right?
24 A. Yes. Because maybe -- well, it is my opinion that in the
25 translation itself -- you see, because I believe that in our language,
1 like in any other language, it is very important where there is a period
2 where there is a comma, so punctuation can change the meaning of a
3 sentence, if you follow what I'm saying.
4 Q. I follow precisely, because that's what I want to ask you next.
5 Did you hear your voice, so you can connect the voice of what you --
6 assuming that you had this conversation and assuming that you said those
7 things, did you hear your voice to see whether a period should be placed
8 where it was placed by whoever was listening in to that conversation? Did
9 you hear a tape recording?
10 A. I did not hear my voice. I got this conversation on paper in my
11 own language, while the investigators, the Prosecution, they were looking
12 at the English version.
13 Q. Okay. Just a moment. So you didn't put that period there
15 A. I've just said, I don't know whether you heard me because it seems
16 that your headphones weren't working properly.
17 Q. I did. So it's fair to say that whoever was listening in chose to
18 put a period there, as opposed to, say, a comma or just a pause. Right?
19 A. I don't know. Probably the person who was translating that could
20 translate -- well, that's why I'm saying it. There can be several
21 different ways of interpreting this, depending on how it is put.
22 Q. Exactly. And since we don't have a tape recording of what
23 exactly you said, as you stand here today, given your memory, can you give
24 us any assurances that those were the exact words that you had said on
25 that morning at 7.00 a.m. when the telephone came in?
1 A. I have said already in Banja Luka that I cannot remember that
2 conversation at all. I did not remember that anyone called me. How can I
3 know who called me and what I said so many years ago?
4 Q. All right. If somebody was up, for instance, at Pribicevac, the
5 third -- the forward command post of the 3rd Battalion, would you say that
6 they're up there? "Gore."
7 A. I don't know. Pribicevac is dominant. It's a high elevation, so
8 it is up there, I mean -- well, I don't know.
9 Q. All right. Okay. Let me move on to another subject. We talked
10 yesterday about you having to provide security for Mladic and others.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, it is your understanding and your belief that you had
13 approximately 30 men in total. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And there was a certain number of people that you needed to
16 conduct day-to-day tasks that were required of the military police?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In other words, some had to stay at the headquarters?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right. And of course when someone like Mladic would come in,
21 you would have to provide security for them. That's one of the tasks that
22 is required. Right?
23 A. It was the command post and the entrance into the brigade
24 headquarters that were secured. As for his movement, all of his movements
25 were secured by the military police. So then I did not have to know
1 whether he came to brigade headquarters, because when he came to brigade
2 headquarters, the military police came with him. And if he left the
3 brigade headquarters and went out into the field, they went with him yet
5 Q. Okay. And when they were with him, were they not under his
6 command and control?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And if he wanted to say, once in Potocari, to ask them to perform
9 certain tasks, would they not be required to do so, to do those tasks?
10 A. Well, he didn't have to look for me and to say, give orders to the
11 policemen to do this and that. No way.
12 Q. All right. And I take it they -- your military police didn't have
13 the authority to tell Mladic that he couldn't give them an order?
14 A. Even the corps commander or the commander of the brigade did not
15 dare say anything like that to him, let alone me.
16 Q. Right. And in fact you had seen him kick in a rear a lieutenant
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So you don't know exactly what Mladic might have done or what
20 orders he might have given to your military police officers once they were
21 with him in Potocari, do you?
22 A. They were assigned to guard him personally, to provide security
23 for him personally. He could have chased them away, told them not to
24 guard him at all. He could have done whatever he wanted to do. That was
25 his right. I could not interfere. The commander couldn't interfere, the
1 corps commander, no one.
2 Q. All right. And some of your men, as I understand it, were being
3 directly ordered by Nikolic himself?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And some, as I understand it, were being ordered by Popovic
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And it would appear, it would appear, that nobody was coming to
9 Mr. -- to you to ask you for your permission or to give you the -- to
10 provide you with the information as to what your men would be doing?
11 A. I was perhaps a bit above an ordinary soldier, but that was not
12 the practice. I really don't know whether they were duty-bound to do that
13 or not. I really don't know.
14 Q. All right. Now, when Mladic travelled, would he announce in
15 advance where he would be going to the military police so they could
16 provide him an escort or, say, drive down a road to see that it's
18 A. Well, let me tell you, sometimes, for instance -- well, I don't
19 know who asked when he went to Pribicevac, but perhaps it was Popovic and
20 Nikolic, too, who said that General Mladic would be going up there and
21 that there are people are escorting him, the military police travelling
22 with him, with him personally, and providing security for him himself and
23 then there would be this other matter of sending a patrol that would be
24 lined up along on the road at certain intervals because there was thick
25 vegetation, thick forest on both sides, so this road went through the
1 forest. Then it was this road that was supposed to be secured as much as
2 possible. It's a long road. I don't even know how many kilometres there
3 are there. You would need a battalion perhaps, or even more than that to
4 provide security there. Then again, if someone wanted to liquidate
5 someone, they could I think because it's such a long road.
6 Q. What if he was going to go to Konjevic Polje, would he tell you to
7 provide security in advance, to make sure everybody knew exactly what his
8 travel plans were?
9 A. No one knew what his travel plan was. He could decide on that --
10 on his own and now he would think this and then he would think that,
11 whatever would come into his mind, he would simply go and do it. But the
12 road to Konjevic Polje was not guarded by the military police, the road
13 itself, because there were troops, some troops belonging to the Army of
14 Republika Srpska along that road. But military police travelled with him,
15 escorted him. It was a Puch vehicle, and the military police escorted him
16 in a Pinzgauer, I think. So they moved along with him. They were not
17 guarding the road from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, it's 22 kilometres.
18 Can you imagine how many soldiers would be required to provide adequate
19 security along that road?
20 Q. Would the military police that were with him call in at least to
21 the headquarters, the military police headquarters, to let you or your
22 deputy and others know where they were on the road at any given time, so
23 at least you would know that your men are with Mladic heading towards
24 Konjevic Polje, heading towards Zvornik?
25 A. No. They didn't even have any means of communication, any
1 communication device, so they could not inform the command of the brigade,
2 the brigade headquarters or me personally. And it wasn't their duty
3 either because General Mladic probably wouldn't have allowed them to do
4 that. He didn't want to be held accountable to anyone.
5 Q. Why was that?
6 A. I don't know. Because he was the highest ranking officer. Why
7 would he tell the brigade commander or the commander of the military
8 police or whoever anything?
9 Q. All right. Could that also not compromise his own security if he
10 telegraphed to everybody where he would be going?
11 A. Well, possibly it could. I don't know. He's the one who decided
12 about that.
13 Q. Okay. Well, Mr. Nikolic has testified that on the afternoon of
14 the 13th he learned when he got to the military police headquarters that
15 Mladic would be going off to Konjevic Polje and as a result of that he
16 took a drive down there to make sure that the road was secure for the
17 commander to be -- to come through, the commander of the Main Staff. Now,
18 do you recall knowing anything about Mr. Mladic or General Mladic telling
19 you or telling others at the headquarters of the military police that he
20 was going down -- he would be going down towards Konjevic Polje in the
21 afternoon or around noon time?
22 A. Well, you know how it was. A telephone could be made or a courier
23 could come and say six men are required, six policemen are required to
24 provide security for Mladic, and automatically six policemen would go.
25 And not at any point in time was it said where they would go. So they
1 went. They did provide security for him, but where they would go with
2 him, they didn't know. For as long as he would not say, "I don't need you
3 anymore," they would have to be with him. If he would say, "You're off.
4 You can go now," then they would go back to the police, but in the
5 meantime they were at his disposal.
6 Q. But you don't recall whether everybody in the Bratunac Brigade
7 headquarters knew at sometime on the 13th, around noon-ish, 1.00 or so,
8 that Mladic would be going through to Konjevic Polje, because that's what
9 Nikolic says, that he came and he learned it from y'all and then he went
10 to make sure that the road was secure and safe for the general to travel.
11 Does that sound logical to you?
12 A. No. No. The military police could not know before Nikolic knew.
13 The military police could not know. He could not have said to the
14 military police, I would go to such and such a place when he had his own
15 security man, or rather, the security man of the Main Staff. He could
16 tell him everything. "I will go, you organise whatever." That's the way
17 it is. I don't know that he announced going there at all. I think that
18 he -- they escorted him all the way to Han Pijesak, the military police of
19 the Bratunac Brigade. I think they said that he stopped somewhere and
20 that they filled up the Pinzgauer tank, because it uses up a lot of
21 gasoline, and then they accompanied him all the way up there. And where
22 he exactly went, I don't know.
23 Q. All right. Up there. That's what I meant. Okay.
24 I was making a reference to "gore" because you didn't mention the
25 place. You said "up there," as if that's -- in your language, when you're
1 referring to a place that's sort of up on the hill, you would say "gore"?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. Now, I want to switch to another topic. When you were
4 questioned by the Prosecutor here the first day, you were asked a series
5 of questions regarding I believe it was the 13th of July. And you were,
6 asked if you knew Nenad Djokic and if you knew Nenad Deronjic. Do you
7 recall that series of questions?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you were asked whether you were aware that according -- that
10 there was a Muslim survivor near Konjevic Polje who had indicated that
11 approximately 16 Muslim prisoners were executed by the banks of a
12 particular river, the Nadja -- Jadar River. Do you recall that, being
13 asked those questions?
14 A. I recall that.
15 Q. For the record I'm referring to the transcript, if the Prosecutor
16 wants to check, it's on page 82.
17 Now, my question is: When you met with the Prosecutor on Sunday
18 to be briefed, to be prepared for here, did he present you with anything
19 to show you that you were at that vicinity of the events when they
21 A. I don't know what you mean.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. The event that had to do with the killing, is that what you're
24 referring to?
25 Q. Right. My question is: Did he show you anything that would give
1 you at least some assurances that you were in or around the area where
2 those people were taken and then executed?
3 A. I said myself that I was there in Konjevic Polje. Now, nothing
4 was shown to me that would prove that I was there precisely at that time,
5 because I said in which period I was there. Now, it did not have to mean
6 that it was done precisely when I was there. It didn't mean that it was
7 precisely at that place. I was at the crossroads and Konjevic Polje is a
8 village, a settlement which has a rather big area. And then there's the
9 river. It's -- a river flows and it can be a kilometre upstream, a
10 kilometre downstream. How should I know. I just said that I didn't see
11 this and I can't say anything about it. How could I?
12 Q. Okay. Well, he says here: "A kilometre or two on the banks of
13 the river." So as I understand, you were on the road primarily and as far
14 as you are aware, you didn't see any such events?
15 A. Yes. I said that we were at the crossroads itself. I said where
16 we went. I said we were moving towards Bratunac in the direction of
17 Bratunac behind that vehicle, so this has already been said.
18 Q. All right. But I want to make sure -- my question is: Did he
19 show you anything that would give us the impression that you would have
20 knowledge of that event, because you were watching it. You were seen
21 watching it. There's some physical evidence, something, anything, that
22 would give us the impression that somehow you were connected or you were
23 aware of this incident.
24 A. No. I didn't see anything and nothing was shown to me, no
25 document or anything like that.
1 Q. Okay. I want to move to another topic. Yesterday you were asked
2 a question with respect to Radenko Zaric. Do you recall that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. Do you know the gentleman?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. Now, just out of curiosity, before coming yesterday
7 into court while you were meeting with the Prosecution being prepared, did
8 the Prosecution ever share with you the statement that they had from
9 Mr. Zaric?
10 A. No. Mr. Zaric's statement was never shown to me.
11 Q. Did they ever share with you what they knew of what Mr. Zaric had
12 told them?
13 A. I think I was told in the courtroom. I was told that Zaric had
14 stated that I had sent him to Potocari to --
15 Q. I'm asking you before coming to the courtroom, did they give you
16 an opportunity and did they tell you what Zaric had said and give you an
17 opportunity to provide them with an answer? I don't see it in the
18 proofing notes.
19 A. I think we didn't discuss that. This was not mentioned. I think
20 we only talked about that here in the courtroom, that's why I'm saying
21 this, but not before.
22 Q. Okay. And as also I -- very well.
14 Q. Well, what was Mr. Jovanovic's position?
15 A. He was -- before me, he was the commander of the military police,
16 and then he was transferred to -- I don't know -- there are certain
17 distinctions to be drawn there, but I can't quite -- chief of security
18 with the Bratunac Brigade staff, that was Nikolic. Now, there was
19 something concerning intelligence. I can't quite remember the exact term,
20 what the position was called exactly, but he was based in an office,
21 together with Nikolic. So again, he had to do with the police.
22 Q. Okay. Where Mr. Nikolic in his testimony indicated that
23 Mr. Jovanovic was not there, was not -- was outside the Bratunac area
24 during these critical periods, yet Mr. Zaric says that he believes he saw
25 Mr. Jovanovic in Potocari on that day. Do you have a comment about that?
1 You've got one Prosecution witness saying he's no where near the area.
2 You've got another witness saying he's in Potocari. Do you recall seeing
3 Mr. Jovanovic there that day?
4 A. I don't know where he was, where Jovanovic was on that day. I
5 really don't remember.
6 Q. Okay. Now, at some point he's asked, Mr. Jovanovic [sic] in his
7 statement, he's asked about how many people went up to Potocari. And he
8 states, everybody in the military --
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think he's got the names mixed up.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: All right. Sorry.
13 Q. I was just corrected improperly so. Mr. Zaric is asked during his
14 interview, and I'm reading from page 6. From his interview he's asked:
15 "And when you were deployed to the enclave, who was deployed with you?"
16 And on page 7, lines 1 all the way down through 4 he says: "So all of us,
17 everybody in the military police. I think about 20 of us were all
18 deployed in that area."
19 And the next question is: "Were you all summoned to one central
20 point before being deployed and given a briefing?"
21 And his answer is: "No."
22 So he seems to think that everybody, and then he qualifies it to
23 about 20 people in the military police being summoned and told to go to
24 Potocari. As I understand your testimony, yesterday you said you did not
25 issue such orders. Is that correct?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And as I further understand you, given the size of your platoon,
3 the military police platoon of the Bratunac Brigade, and given the
4 day-to-day tasks, including providing security for Mladic, this would have
5 been an impossibility?
6 A. Precisely. This would have been impossible. There were other
7 ongoing activities. This number as specified, 30 people, we were all
8 there, we were all on the list, the 30 of us. 10 people remained for all
9 the other activities, the checkpoint, guarding the bridge, guarding the
10 members of the Dutch Battalion, securing the wounded who were at the
11 clinic, at the health centre, securing the command post, guarding the
12 military police building, personal security for General Ratko Mladic.
13 Q. Now, in this -- Mr. Zaric says that a car was sent to pick him up
14 at home because he was -- he had a day or two off. Were there a lot of
15 military police officers that had days off during those days or was
16 everybody deployed because of the circumstances?
17 A. Because of the circumstances, no one was allowed to leave the
18 unit. Someone may have been sick or a family member may have been sick.
19 But the person would only have been allowed to leave briefly for a day or
20 two maybe, even in that case.
21 Q. All right. Now, I want to switch to another topic, and that is
22 dealing with the security of the schools in Bratunac or where the Muslim
23 prisoners were detained. As you might recall, yesterday we talked
24 about -- there was some questions posed to you by the Prosecutor. Do you
25 recall that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you told us that you received an order by Mr. Nikolic. Is
3 that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, when Mr. Nikolic gave you the order, he did not say that this
6 order was coming from the commander, your commander, Colonel Blagojevic,
7 did he?
8 A. No. He didn't tell me where the order had come from, nor was he
9 duty bound to tell me about that, who he had received his order from.
10 Q. All right. Did he tell you exactly how many men you had to
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did he tell you that it was your -- your responsibility, that is,
14 the responsibility of the military police platoon of the Bratunac Brigade
15 to guard all those prisoners?
16 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand the question.
2 A. No. He didn't say that it was my responsibility. He said I
3 should send people over there to help because there were very few soldiers
4 there. I'm not sure from whose unit, that assistance should be provided
5 for them in carrying out security tasks there.
6 Q. All right. And he did not tell you that those prisoners belonged
7 to and were under the control of the Bratunac Brigade, did he?
8 A. No, he didn't. He didn't say. It was under the control of the
9 Army of Republika Srpska. Now, which particular unit -- very many units
10 took part in that operation from all over the place, all sorts of units,
11 but only the Bratunac Brigade could have done this job.
12 Q. All right. And you said that Mladic was there with his forward
13 command post at the Hotel Fontana only a few hundred metres away. Right
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: The testimony was that Mladic was in Han Pijesak
17 at this time.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll rephrase, Your Honour.
19 Q. You indicated that Mladic's forward command post, the command post
20 of the Main Staff of the VRS army, was located during that period in time
21 in the Hotel Fontana, only a few hundred metres away from where these
22 prisoner were being detained. Right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And is your understanding that the Drina Corps forward command
25 post during those days was also at that same hotel, Hotel Fontana?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And of course we have Colonel Beara running around Bratunac.
4 A. I'm not sure if he was running around Bratunac, but I do know that
5 he was part of the Main Staff that was based at the Fontana Hotel.
6 Q. And you know Popovic was there and giving orders to your men.
7 Right, from the Drina Corps?
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. And you saw Nikolic with Beara and Popovic together?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. KARNAVAS: This may be a good time to take a break, Your
12 Honour. I don't have too much more, I think 15 more minutes perhaps.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll break now and we'll resume until quarter
14 to 11.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Now, before we get on to the next subject, I just want to ask you
20 one question. It's my understanding that in your statement to the
21 Prosecution you had indicated that the Bratunac Brigade military police
22 were not coordinating and not communicating -- or not communicating, I
23 should say, with MUP. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. Now, you were asked some questions about Pilica; do you
6 recall that, yesterday?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And it's been established that two members of the Bratunac Brigade
9 military police were in Pilica. Do you recall that?
10 A. I don't know how many there were, whether two or a different
12 Q. Okay. But they said -- they used the word "patrol," and that was,
13 I believe, your understanding and that that would constitute two police
14 officers, two military police officers. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And if I understand your testimony from yesterday, you don't know
17 how they got there. In other words, who ordered them to be there.
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. And in fact you did not know at the time that they were up there?
20 A. I didn't know because I wasn't there myself. I went to the other
21 village that I talked about.
22 Q. And it was later on that you learned they had been up there?
23 A. I don't know when I learned.
24 Q. Did you ever hear that your -- anybody under your command had
25 committed any atrocities?
1 A. I was not aware of anything like that.
2 Q. All right. Did you ever try to find out how it was or who it was
3 that ordered those two or that patrol of the Bratunac Brigade military
4 police to be up in Pilica?
5 A. I don't know who ordered them, nor did I ever try to find out who
7 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Nikolic indicated when he entered into an
8 agreement with the Prosecution, he had indicated certain things that made
9 it into the newspaper in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you recall reading some
10 things that were stated by Mr. Nikolic in his statement of facts and
11 acceptance of responsibility before this Tribunal?
12 A. Yes, I remember. I have a copy of the article from the newspaper
13 when the statement was published.
14 Q. All right. And I take it you read that statement, did you not?
15 You read the article?
16 A. Yes. I can even show my copy to the Honourable Chamber, if
18 Q. All right. And was that printed about the time that Nikolic
19 entered into this agreement? Would that have been around April or May of
20 this year?
21 A. I don't know exactly when it was published, whether it was before
22 or after his agreement with the Office of the Prosecutor. I do know that
23 it was published. That's all I know. Whether it was before of after, I
24 really can't say.
25 Q. And do you happen to have it here in the courtroom?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Right now?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. You don't mind sharing it with us. If I could take a look
5 at it real quickly. All right.
6 If we could put it on the ELMO for just a second. Let me just ask
7 him a couple of questions regarding that. Okay. Sorry.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll be asking that that be moved into evidence,
9 Your Honour, if we could make a copy at some point.
10 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, do you have the translation of
11 this article?
12 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't have the translation, but I'm prepared to
13 ask some questions, just some foundational questions, and then at some
14 point we can have the article translated. But I'm not going to go into
15 depth -- into the content of the article itself.
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, as the extraordinary case, we will allow you to
17 do that. But just remember, we will not accept any documents which we
18 don't understand at all.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand, Your Honour. And I'm improvising at
20 this point.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Let's see how far you can go with this article.
22 MR. KARNAVAS:
23 Q. Now, if you could look at the top of the article, sir, take a look
24 at the top of it, and please tell us the date.
25 A. What it says here is the following: "The subject, daily Avaz, 8th
1 of May, 2003."
2 Q. Okay. 8th May, 2003. Now, since that time, sir, has the
3 Prosecution contacted you to get your account of what Mr. Nikolic had said
4 with respect to Mr. Petrovic?
5 A. No, although I expected to be contacted by the Office of the
6 Prosecutor and be invited to give my account, but I was never called
7 before I got the date, the 22nd of October 2003, to appear here before the
9 Q. Were you in Bratunac this entire period?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were you in hiding or were you -- could you be seen in case
12 somebody wanted to contact you?
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. This appears to -- I
14 don't understand the relevance.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: The relevance is quite obvious, Your Honour. Had
16 the Prosecution wished to contact him he was available. He was not in
17 hiding and he was within their grasp and reach.
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, we don't think this question is
19 necessary. The point is very clear.
20 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. Well, I wasn't sure, Your Honour. I wasn't
22 JUDGE LIU: We are sure.
23 MR. KARNAVAS:
24 Q. Now, you were invited, were you not, by the police department of
25 the Bratunac municipality to give a statement, were you not?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. Were you provided with the statement that they had prepared as a
3 result of the statement -- as a result of your conversation with them?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, I happen to have a copy of it and if I may share it with you.
6 And this would be D-71 -- D-71/1 for identifications purposes.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: It has not been translated, Your Honour. We just
8 received this by fax, but I have a way of getting what it is that we need
9 to get out of this statement. I will have it translated at some point.
10 Q. Now, sir, if you could just look at it and see whether you
11 recognise this.
14 [redacted] And the Prosecutor asked me to bring
15 it along, so I have. I have it here with me. I've brought it today. I
16 managed to locate it and I brought it to court today. I'm familiar with
17 this statement because I received this statement immediately after I had
18 given the interview.
19 Q. All right. So the statement I've handed you is identical to the
20 one you just pulled out of your pocket?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Very well. Now, if you could look at the third page, the
23 third page and if I could ask you to read so we can get a translation of
24 the very last paragraph on this statement. If you can just read it and
25 we'll get a translation.
1 A. I also wish to state that I had the opportunity of reading the
2 text of the alleged statements made by Nikolic, Momir, in newspapers such
3 as Dnevni Avaz and other newspapers, and I did not recognise as true the
4 statement presented in these newspapers, because what was presented in the
5 newspapers was completely false, in my opinion, as well as inaccurate
6 information given about me and other persons named in the text. So I
7 cannot accept this statement as truthful.
8 Q. Okay. Thank you. Do you know whether during this period of time
9 from May until today, whether Mr. Petrovic was in Bratunac?
10 A. I think so.
11 Q. And of course he gave a statement as well, as you well know.
13 A. He gave a statement on that same day. I've said that it was the
14 same day when I was there, but he was there before me. It says here -- I
15 beg your pardon. It says here -- I didn't even see it before. I mean, I
16 don't remember seeing it. I saw it last night when I was looking for this
17 document when I came from this court. I saw that it says here quite
18 nicely what the date is and also on the top it says: "Started at 1240
19 hours." And at the end it says: "The statement taking was completed at
20 1430 hours." So the time is there, how long the statement was taken.
21 Q. All right. Now, as I understand it, you began your career as a
22 police officer. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And in fact you were a police officer were several years before
25 you became -- you switched careers?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. Given your background and experience, given your
3 background and experience, do you not think that it would have been
4 appropriate for the Prosecutor to come down to Bratunac and to take a
5 statement from Mr. Petrovic as well.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection to relevance, Your Honour. Unless -- if
8 the Prosecution has been established to be on trial here, I would like to
9 know about it.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: They are.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't think he's established one width of
12 evidence and -- thank you.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey. I quite agree with you.
14 Mr. Karnavas, I warned you before the start of the trial about
15 that. It's not necessary. Do not involve the other parties unless you
16 have some concrete specific case.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.
18 Q. Mr. Petrovic was available during this entire period in Bratunac,
19 had the Prosecutor wanted to contact him and take a statement. Isn't that
20 a fact?
21 A. They could have taken a statement from me and from Petrovic and
22 from many other persons who were there. I don't know. I don't know about
23 anybody hiding any of the people who are mentioned.
24 Q. Okay. Now, yesterday I began by asking you and pointing out that
25 section where you believed Mr. Petrovic to be a good man, an honest man,
1 conscientious and so on. Do you recall that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, as you know, he lost some members of his family during the
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. I know that he lost his brother. I don't know whether he lost any
8 other family members.
9 Q. But isn't it a fact, sir, that as long as you have known him, as
10 long as you have known him, and while he served with you with the Bratunac
11 Brigade in the military police, that he always conducted himself
12 correctly. Isn't that a fact?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may have just one second, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, you have to understand this
19 witness is under the protective measures. There were several occasions
20 that you accidentally mentioned something which might disclose the
21 identity of this witness. Could we go into the private session.
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session, please.
24 [Private session]
12 Page 3676 redacted, private session
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] When we looked at yesterday's
4 transcript of this witness's testimony, it seemed to us that we had a few
5 things that needed clarification. So, Your Honour, those are the only
6 questions we have. I don't think we have anything that would be relevant
7 to our defence otherwise.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:
9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Witness.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. Could we please just clarify some things that could be important.
12 Yesterday and today in response to -- or rather yesterday, in response to
13 the Prosecutor's questions, you said when speaking about the 14th of July,
14 1995, that you got orders from Popovic and Major Nikolic to help with the
15 escort of Muslim prisoners to Zvornik. Is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Also, you said that this was sometime around 10.00?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then you went on to say that you were in this column with an
20 APC and that the column was being lined up behind you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that --
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, we still have time, Mr. Stojanovic.
24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. That a few times you moved the APC so that the column could be
1 lined up?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That at one point in time they walked up to you and asked you
4 whether you were supposed to tank up?
5 A. Yes. That was where the road forks off towards the headquarters
6 of the brigade.
7 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone was not on. The microphone is
8 still not on.
9 JUDGE LIU: Your microphone. Thank you.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. And finally, you left around 1330 hours?
12 A. When I filled up, then I moved yet again, then we waited there for
13 a while. I don't know for how long, perhaps about 1.30 or 2.00 we left
14 from that place.
15 Q. That is precisely the fact we wanted to clarify, so around 1.30 or
16 2.00 you set out for Zvornik?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What is the distance between Bratunac and Zvornik?
19 A. From Bratunac to Zvornik the distance is registered as being 43
21 Q. So this kind of column on that day, the 14th of July, 1995, how
22 much time did you need to cover these 43 kilometres?
23 A. Since this was a column, it could not move fast, although it did
24 not stop on the way. So the tempo of the movement of this column was
25 dictated by Colonel Popovic. He was at the head of the column with this
1 vehicle of his. I apologise to the interpreters again for fiddling with
2 the microphone.
3 So all the vehicles had a proper distance between each other. So
4 we were moving along that way. I don't know at which speed really,
5 because I was driving this vehicle and I wasn't really looking, but the
6 speed on that particular vehicle is shown in miles. But most probably, I
7 don't think that the column could be moving even at 40 kilometres per
8 hour, so perhaps it needed about an hour, an hour and a half to get there,
9 because it even went on further, so these are narrow roads.
10 Q. If I draw the right conclusion, that would mean that you would
11 have reached Zvornik around 1430 hours or 1500 hours on that day, the 14th
12 of July?
13 A. Yes, around that time.
14 Q. And you said that you did not stop in front of the headquarters of
15 the Zvornik Brigade?
16 A. No, we did not. We did not stop anywhere until that school. I
17 just stopped by a bridge on this road when one turns towards the village
18 of Sapna because this was a narrow, concrete bridge and I wasn't sure, I
19 couldn't assess from that vehicle, whether I could safely cross this
20 bridge. I did not know how it was constructed, this concrete
21 construction, and of course how wide it was, because the vehicle itself is
22 rather wide.
23 Q. So you were in front of that school around 1500 hours or 1530
25 A. Well, yes, around that time. We probably needed about an hour and
1 a half to get there. Perhaps it was 1500 hours, perhaps 1530 hours,
2 because we were moving very slowly along this narrow road. We moved very
3 slowly from the fork off near Karakaj to the left. And then after this
4 wider road, we turned to the right, again a narrower road which is not as
5 wide as the other one that goes from Karakaj itself.
6 Q. Did you see whether there were any prisoners who had been brought
7 to that school before you?
8 A. I did not see any prisoners in the school, because of course I did
9 not even enter the school. I did not get out of the APC. But it is my
10 assumption that there was no one there in that school, that the school was
12 Q. So in this context let us take care of one thing. It is possible
13 that a similar convoy of the same size left from Bratunac on that same
14 morning and went there?
15 A. I don't know. Perhaps it could have gone early in the morning,
16 but again I'm telling you, perhaps around 10.00, 9.30. As I said, I was
17 parked at the crossroads at around 10.00 near the bus station. So at that
18 time no one could have passed there. And I think that not a single convoy
19 left before that.
20 Q. Further on you said that during this journey all the time, and on
21 the basis of the information that was given to you by Major Nikolic, it
22 was said that these people were going for an exchange?
23 A. Yes. Yes. Not at a single moment -- I mean, I said this because
24 I knew this. It was logical to me. They said that many of our people
25 stayed behind in Tuzla, and I have to point this out here before the
1 Court. In Tuzla, the population did not have very strong ethnic feelings,
2 generally speaking, throughout the territory of Tuzla. When speaking of
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina and all of the former Yugoslavia, when people voted for
4 national parties, it was only in Tuzla in that the reformist forces won
5 the election, whereas in all other bigger towns and cities, the
6 nationalist parties one. So that is why a lot of people stayed there.
7 People did not move out of the territory of the municipality of Tuzla.
8 Many people of Serb ethnicity remained in the territory of the
9 municipality of Tuzla. They stayed on there. They lived there. Then
10 after the 15th of May when at Brcanska Malta those soldiers were killed,
11 and then Tuzla was blocked, sealed off, and then people could no longer
12 get out of Tuzla. And it seemed logical to me that now, perhaps it was
13 somebody's decision, that these people from Srebrenica would be exchanged
14 for the people who were there and who wanted to get out of Tuzla, who were
15 blocked in Tuzla.
16 Q. So there was no reason, there were no grounds for any one of you
17 who was escorting this convoy could conclude what would happen to the
19 A. No, no one could conclude what would happen to the prisoners.
20 It's nonsense. I mean, how could anyone think that? This is what seemed
21 logical and I said that it was logical, that these people would be taken
22 to the area that was under the control of their forces and the people who
23 wanted to get out of this territory because they were blocked, of course
24 they could not leave, and that then they could go to the territory they
25 wanted to go to. If they didn't want to go, of course nobody could coerce
2 Q. Just another question. As you were headed for the school once you
3 turned off from the Zvornik/Bijeljina road, did you perhaps notice another
4 crossroads with a fountain nearby?
5 A. I don't remember that particular crossroads.
6 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
7 questions. Thank you
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any re-direct?
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just a few questions, Your Honour.
10 Re-examined by Mr. McCloskey:
11 Q. Witness, do you recall telling the Office of the Prosecutor in
12 your interview in Banja Luka that you had seen Mr. Beara in the Bratunac
13 Brigade compound?
14 A. Yes, I did see him in the compound of the Bratunac Brigade.
15 Q. Can you tell us, was that before or after the fall of Srebrenica?
16 A. I don't know if it was before or after the fall. I can't
18 Q. Did you see him in the compound after the fall?
19 A. As I said, I don't know whether I saw him before or after the fall
20 of Srebrenica. At any rate, he was there always. He was moving about the
21 area, the Bratunac area. He was based at the Fontana Hotel. It's
22 possible that he came over, but I can't be sure as to when exactly I saw
24 Q. But did he come over to the Bratunac Brigade compound frequently
25 during this time period?
1 A. Not frequently, no. Not frequently.
2 Q. How often would you say?
3 A. I don't know how often. I can't answer your question accurately.
4 It's difficult to say. There was no prescription saying how often he was
5 supposed to be there, like every morning, every afternoon. I really don't
6 know how often he came. Whenever he needed to, I suppose. I can't say
7 how often exactly or whether his visits were frequent. I didn't see him
8 every single time he came. Maybe he spent more time there than I
9 realised. I know that I saw him once inside the compound. As to when
10 precisely this was, at which point in time, I really can't say.
11 Q. Where inside the compound did you see him?
12 A. In the compound near the entrance and then towards the kitchen.
13 Q. So he was actually in the command headquarters towards the
15 A. As I said, outside in the compound where the brigade headquarters
16 was, we looked at the building at the layout, the ground plan of the
17 building, so at the far right of the building you had the duty room and
18 then there was several doors. I don't remember how many. But there was a
19 restaurant there where I ate as well. There was our kitchen, the kitchen
20 of the brigade headquarters where the military police ate.
21 Q. Was he inside the building or outside the building when you saw
23 A. Outside the building, as I said. In the compound but outside the
24 building towards the kitchen door, the entrance to the restaurant.
25 Q. Did you see General Mladic around the compound during these days?
1 A. I saw General Mladic when he was with Colonel Popovic. That's
2 when I saw him inside the compound, but I can't remember any other time.
3 Q. General Krstic, did you see General Krstic in the compound during
4 this time frame?
5 A. I didn't see General Krstic inside the compound of the brigade
6 headquarters at that time or in the brigade headquarters itself.
7 Q. Are you sure you didn't tell us that you saw General Krstic in the
8 compound back in Banja Luka or around the brigade headquarters somewhere?
9 A. I don't know. I may have seen him, but I can't remember right
10 now. Back in Banja Luka, that was two years ago.
11 Q. Okay. Did you see General -- do you know if General Mladic, after
12 he was escorted to Han Pijesak by the MPs, do you know if he came back to
13 the area of Bratunac?
14 A. I think so. I can't be sure, but I think he did.
15 Q. Okay. Now, you were asked a question in Banja Luka of what
16 happened if a superior outside your normal chain of command gave you an
17 order. And this is how you responded, it's page 18, line 1 through 4.
18 "If superiors were there and then the orders would be convoyed
19 through them. If they were not there, then okay. But in any case, after
20 any assignment or a task was completed, then everything would be told,
21 people would be informed about it, about what was done. There was no
22 concealing of anything. There was no need to conceal anything."
23 Now, I'm just asking you generally, as a general military
24 principle, do you stand by that statement? I'm not asking you about the
25 specific events now, but as a general military principle of who you
1 reported to when, do you stand by that statement?
2 A. I don't think I understood this. I didn't understand the wording.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: If I could have one second. If we could just show
4 him his own words starting at page 18, line 1.
5 Q. And if you could just read those words out loud so we can all hear
6 them to make sure I've got the right one. Could you read that out loud.
7 A. The first thing, top of the page, line 1: "If superiors were
8 there, then they would send orders through them. If they were not around,
9 then -- but at any rate after every assignment, after every completed
10 assignment, everything was said, everything was known, that it had been
11 engaged and that where -- probably where, it should say, where it had been
12 engaged and that nothing was concealed. There was no need."
13 Q. Do you stand by that statement today?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes --
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Nothing further --
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: In the interest of completion, I would ask that he
19 read the next question and the following answer right after that, because
20 I think it gives more context to the portion that he just read. And under
21 the principle of completion, I believe that should be done.
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think Mr. McCloskey just asked a very general
23 question in the general of circumstances.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, he's then -- the investigator then
25 asks him to clarify it. And the answer he gives is: "Yes, I would
1 definitely get in touch with them to let them know what was ordered.
2 However, it wasn't possible to get in touch with them every time, because
3 I said you didn't -- who was aware."
4 So that's the portion I wanted to be read into the record, because
5 he indicates here that it wasn't possible at all times. It gives it more
6 means, it puts it into context and it's more complete. That's what I was
7 trying to accomplish, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE LIU: Anyway, you have read this paragraph. It's in the
9 transcript. You may sit down.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE LIU: Any further questions?
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, I have nothing further, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't.
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this stage, are there any documents to tender
16 through this witness?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. We have P-167 which needs to
18 go under seal. That's that aerial that he had previously marked. We have
19 a video clip, which was 168, which, as you know, is part of a larger
20 exhibit. And we have 169, which is under seal exhibit, just the
21 traditional paper that was shown.
22 JUDGE LIU: Any objections, Mr. Karnavas?
23 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
25 Mr. Stojanovic, any objections?
1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections on our part, Your
3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, very much. These three documents are
4 admitted into the evidence.
5 On the part of Defence, are there any documents to tender into the
6 evidence? Mr. Karnavas.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. I would tender D-71/1,
8 which would be the statement that the gentleman gave to the police. Of
9 course, we'll ask that it be translated. And also D-72/1, which is the
10 article from which the gentleman read, the article that was in the
11 newspaper, because it gives context to the portion that was read from the
12 statement itself. So D-71/1 and D-72/1.
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, as I said, that if they are not translated into
14 a language that we understand, which is the official language, they are
15 not legible for that admission. But let's hear the response from
16 Mr. McCloskey.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, I would like to have an idea
18 of what we're talking about, though perhaps once we get the translation,
19 Mr. Karnavas and I can stipulate to this. These documents don't appear to
20 be very significant, frankly, and we may be able to reach an agreement
21 about that. But I'd like to know what they say, of course.
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas.
23 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.
24 JUDGE LIU: Let's hold those two documents pending, which means
25 that you can reintroduce these documents into the evidence at any stage
1 later on, so long as --
2 MR. KARNAVAS: The translation --
3 JUDGE LIU: The translation, but more importantly is the
4 contents. We have to understand what's in it.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: I agree, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE LIU: We cannot give you a blank cheque.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: I have not received one yet, Your Honour, nor am I
8 seeking one, but thank you, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
10 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to give your
11 evidence. The usher will show you out of the room.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
13 I am always willing to offer any assistance that is needed.
14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you for your cooperation.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe the Prosecution has some procedural
17 matters to bring to the attention of this Bench. We'll have a short
18 break, about a 10-minute break, and we'll resume at quarter to 12.00.
19 --- Break taken at 11.34 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 11.48 a.m.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I have been asked to help
23 clarify our ongoing witness list so we can all schedule -- try to schedule
24 this, and we will be filing our updated 65 ter list in the next few days,
25 but I can, as I have been able with the Defence, go over some of the
1 names. It might be best to go in private session.
2 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think in the list you provided, there is a
3 number there. Can you only mention those numbers?
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. That's a --
5 JUDGE LIU: If necessary, we will go to private session, of
6 course, at any time.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm not sure if we -- I'm sorry, Judge, the list
8 I'm going on is not -- is an internal list and it's different. Janet can
9 make that change for me but --
10 JUDGE LIU: Well, let's go to private session.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you.
12 [Private session]
12 Pages 3690 to 3699 redacted, private session
4 [Open session]
5 JUDGE LIU: Mr. McCloskey.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, it's not exactly clear to me what counsel is
7 saying, but I think there's two issues. One, there is the witness I think
8 we talked about briefly, the fellow that brought his diary in Krstic and
9 then took it back, and that was never an exhibit or anything. Apparently
10 I've been told that there's five pages that are relevant there that have
11 been given to the Defence and I know -- and the whole diary has been given
12 and we're -- sorry, over a year ago that diary was given I'm being told.
13 I didn't realise that. And I think the five pages that he has spoken to
14 us about in proofing that appear to be relevant are being translated as we
15 speak. So they've had that for a year. If that's all she's speaking
16 about, that's all I really have to say, but is there another matter
17 relating to notebooks that you're also talking about?
18 MS. SINATRA: I'm sorry, Mr. McCloskey -- Your Honours.
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, please.
20 MS. SINATRA: I'm not quite sure, since these documents were put
21 on our desk today, that maybe there were English translations provided at
22 another time. It would be very simple for the Prosecutor to have included
23 English translations because these documents were introduced in the Krstic
24 trial, so there's probably an English translation. This was in our box
25 this morning. We didn't get them until we came to trial this morning, and
1 we have not had a chance to review them. But I think it's probably an
2 easier purview for the Prosecutor at this point to provide us with the
3 English translations of these documents which they have readily at their
4 fingertips, versus to us trying to find some CD that they provided a year
5 ago at this point in the case.
6 And we appreciate -- this is true that there is a draft
7 translation being translated into English of the five pages that the
8 Prosecutor believes are relevant to the case, but since they're not our
9 case, I'm not sure that they can tell us what is relevant inside all of
10 these notebooks that will be introduced into evidence tomorrow. I would
11 ask that the Trial Chamber to ask the Prosecutor to please give us the
12 English translations of this since we only have a very short period until
13 the witness takes the stand.
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Sinatra, this morning I think I told
15 Mr. Karnavas that the Prosecution will not be his investigator, but here I
16 would like to say to you, the Prosecution will not be your secretary on
17 that issue. While that may be harsh, but as you requested, I would like
18 to ask the Prosecution to do their best to find the English translations
19 for you for the preparation of tomorrow's hearing. I hope the parties
20 could meet together to find out whether there's an English translation
21 available for those documents and provide those English translations to
22 you. Do you agree with that?
23 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I -- if they have them available,
24 it would be very nice if they could provide them. We appreciate it, but
25 we also would like on the record for the Trial Chamber to be reminded that
1 the Registrar does not pay for our interpreter, so we don't have access to
2 the translation that the Prosecutor does either. But thank you very much
3 for your cooperation in this matter. And I know the OTP will give us the
4 English translations this afternoon.
5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
6 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: We will work hard, as you've said, Your Honour.
8 This is a completely different subject than the one regarding the specific
9 witness. So if I could give you just a little explanation on it, then
10 we'll get a better picture of where we are. There are handwritten
11 notebooks and basically they were done from school kid's diaries that
12 intercept operators wrote down intercepts in. There's stacks of them.
13 From those stacks and other intercept information, we were able to find
14 the, I don't know, 1 or 200 intercepts that really had the most relevance
15 that we could find, and those are in the two binders. Now, of course all
16 those intercepts are translated, the ones in the two binders. Now, the
17 notebooks have many more intercepts that talk about you know, people, kids
18 at school, and Belgrade and all kinds of things as well as non-related
19 issues. Those materials have been in the possession of the Defence since
20 29 October 2002, and we have tried to get some draft translations of some
21 of the material so we could decide what to use and it is that material
22 that I can now try to assist Defence counsel with seeing, though -- and
23 we'll try to do that. It's a little late, but better late than never, I
24 guess. We'll try to do that. Just to let you know, that's the situation.
25 We will be asking the notebooks to come in as evidence because of the key
1 intercepts that are in them. But it's for those intercepts that we're
2 asking them to be in evidence for. And all the other stuff, it would
3 drown us to have all the English translations of all the other intercepts.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, of course in this courtroom we'll deal with the
5 relevant materials but not all other materials. And thank you very much
6 for your cooperation, Mr. McCloskey.
8 MS. SINATRA: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I just wanted to bring to
9 the Trial Chamber's attention that without knowledge of what is in these
10 notebooks which they tend to introduce into evidence tomorrow, without
11 being able to review them tonight, what's relevant to the Prosecutor's
12 case there may be something in there that's exculpatory to the Defence
13 case that we will lose the opportunity to cross-examine about if we don't
14 know the contents of these notebooks in total. I believe that they have
15 all of the transcripts -- these translated at some place in their computer
16 back systems, ILAB or whatever. If they could please provide us with a
17 copy of that today, it would save us a lot of problems dealing with the
18 witness tomorrow who they wish to introduce these notebooks through.
19 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think that the Prosecution has promised that
20 after this sitting, the parties will sit together and to identify the
21 issues and give you the opportunity to go through all those notebooks, at
22 least to see those notebooks. And I believe that the lead counsel could
23 speak B/C/S and could identify the relevant issues which might be
24 exculpatory to your case. And the Prosecution is requested to provide a
25 list of the evidence they are going to use in their direct examination
1 tomorrow. This list should be provided to you, I think, this afternoon,
2 so that you will know which materials that they are going to use through
3 the next witness.
4 MS. SINATRA: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. That list was provided on Monday, Your
7 Honour, the list of the materials that we would intend for the witnesses
8 as per the rules that have been established.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
10 Well, I think that's all for this morning and we will resume
11 tomorrow morning at 9.00 in the same courtroom. The hearing is adjourned.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
13 at 12.28 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
14 the 30th day of October, 2003, at 9.00 a.m.