1 Thursday, 6 November 2003
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number
7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Before we are going to have the
9 witness, I believe that the parties have something to raise at this stage.
10 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, good afternoon, Your Honours. As you know,
12 we are preparing for Mr. Butler to testify hopefully Monday, if all goes
13 well. And in that regard, as he did in Krstic, the United States has
14 requested that they be allowed to have a lawyer present in the courtroom
15 during the initial questioning at direct examination and at
16 cross-examination when issues of Mr. Butler's background may be at issue.
17 As this Trial Chamber is aware, there are many people from the United
18 States, from the UK, from France, and from other countries who have been
19 allowed to work for and testify for this Tribunal on condition that they
20 have a lawyer in the court, not to represent the individual but to
21 represent the interests of the United States in this particular case,
22 should any issues arise.
23 Now, Mr. Butler was an active duty U.S. Army intelligence officer
24 since 1991. He was seconded to this Tribunal in April 1997 and he retired
25 from the U.S. Army in September 2001 and has been working as a UN person
1 here. Since then, though, he left in September 2003. And he again
2 expects to work for the United States government in January. The United
3 States has asked me to merely request to the Court your permission to have
4 a United States lawyer here for those times when he is questioned about
5 his background and of course any other time that an issue may arise,
6 though if it happens, what happened in Krstic they were just here for the
7 first 30, 40 minutes, and then once we got into the relevant, substantive
8 matters, there was no need to. So that is my first request for the United
9 States. I, of course, do not represent the United States, but just out of
10 a matter convenience and time saving, we thought this would be a good way
11 to do it.
12 I have spoken to counsel a few times over the last several weeks
13 about the areas of Mr. Butler's testimony, and of course it's wide open on
14 any work that he did for the UN. And I know that Mr. Karnavas has studied
15 what happened in the Krstic trial and appears -- doesn't have any problem
16 with working within the limits that were described. Fundamentally,
17 Mr. Butler's background is also open. His education that he did as a
18 military officer and his resume will be introduced that shows the various
19 assignments that he had over the years which include places like Somalia
20 and Iraq. What he can't answer questions about are the specifics of what
21 he was doing in those various jobs or the United States capabilities
22 regarding intelligence gathering, be that aerial imagery or intercepts.
23 And he, of course, will not be testifying about anything regarding U.S.
24 aerial imagery or intercepts. That -- the aerial imagery has come in
25 through Mr. Ruez, as you're aware, and he'll talk about Bosnian
1 intercepts. U.S. Intercepts, I'm not aware of any or their capabilities
2 at this point. But it's really, of course, not relevant. I don't think
3 that's a problem in terms of speaking with the Blagojevic team. In
4 speaking to Ms. Sinatra, she may have some concerns in that area and may
5 need to be -- I'm sure she will want to be heard on that.
6 So my first request is: May the United States have a lawyer here
7 during these brief times and also, if we cannot reach an informal
8 agreement as to the questioning of Mr. Butler, I will be presenting, I
9 imagine, if the Court so deems, a written -- asking for an order for the
10 various parties so that it's clear from the Court's order what they can
11 question on and what they can't. I'm hoping that wasn't necessary, but
12 maybe it might be.
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, any comments on submissions? Mr. Karnavas.
14 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. I did speak with
15 Mr. McCloskey regarding this. He did bring it to my attention a few weeks
16 ago. I also went through transcript where a similar request was made.
17 I'm familiar with Mr. Butler's work product. As fascinating as the area
18 that we cannot get into might be, on a personal level I understand it's
19 not relevant to this case and therefore I do not intend to even attempt to
20 go into those areas and I respect the U.S. government's concerns regarding
21 that. As far as having a lawyer present, I really have no objections to
22 that. Even if the lawyer wishes at some point to address the Court, if
23 they deem it necessary to advise us that we're getting into areas which
24 might be sensitive. So I think it's a reasonable request on behalf of the
25 Prosecutor. It was brought to my attention early on for me to react and
1 respond and think about it so I have no objections.
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
3 Ms. Sinatra.
4 MS. SINATRA: Thank you, Your Honours. This issue was brought to
5 my attention and Mr. Stojanovic's attention yesterday for the first time
6 that there was the possibility that the U.S. government was requesting an
7 attorney to sit in the courtroom. The way Mr. McCloskey has stated it is
8 that he will be plain clothed. I believe he's a member of the CIA. He is
9 a lawyer, supposedly. And if he's a lawyer, Your Honour, we certainly
10 think that it is outside of the normal procedures of this Trial Chamber,
11 because all the Dutch military experts have come to testify. We've had
12 military experts from all other countries, and I don't believe that they
13 required a protection in the courtroom other than our UN security
14 officers. And if they feel threatened, then they have a right to sit here
15 in the anti-courtroom like everybody else does. If they want to appear in
16 this courtroom as an attorney, then they should ask the Court's
17 recognition, they should robe up and they should be specific about what
18 their intentions are here in the courtroom. But just to have someone in
19 plain clothes coming in and out of this courtroom, maybe even sitting
20 through private sessions and confidential information offends these
22 JUDGE LIU: Any response? Mr. McCloskey.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: This has been a tradition in this Tribunal for as
24 long as its been in existence. Most recently there was a UK lawyer
25 sitting in for the testimony of Ewan Brown in the Brdjanin and Talic case.
1 There is no mystery. There's no espionage. This is the daily business of
2 this Tribunal.
3 MS. SINATRA: And, Your Honour --
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra, I think we fully understand your
5 concern unless you have something more to add.
6 MS. SINATRA: I forgot that his presentation today is two-fold.
7 It's not just the presence of somebody else in the courtroom, another
8 counsel for another country. But also he described limiting the scope of
9 cross-examination of Richard Butler. If Mr. McCloskey would like to stick
10 to the facts of Krstic case and not present the new evidence regarding the
11 Zvornik Brigade and regarding intercept evidence, then we would not pursue
12 this area. But we have a right to test this expert's knowledge. We can
13 ask him if he knows. If he doesn't know, then we won't go into it. This
14 is a very major issue in the Defence of Mr. Jokic. They're presenting
15 their military expert here. We have a right to test his knowledge on the
16 capabilities of the United States government.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, this Trial Chamber heard the oral application
19 for the presence of the representative of the U.S. government during
20 Mr. Butler's testimony. We regarded it as a kind of protective measure
21 sought by the Prosecution under Rule 70 and 75 of the Rules of Procedure
22 and Evidence of this Tribunal. The Rule 70 stipulates matters not subject
23 to disclosure, which specifically mentioned the matter of confidentiality.
24 There were several matters concerning the confidentiality this Trial
25 Chamber should be carefully regarded. For instance, the privileges of the
1 communication between the counsel and his client. The doctor/patient
2 relationship, as well as the state interest and the secrecy.
3 In the jurisprudence of this Tribunal, there are many precedents
4 in this respect. In the Tuta and Stela case, a motion was filed
5 requesting the presence of a representative of a humanitarian organisation
6 during a witness's testimony. The reason of the motion is if it is widely
7 and publicly known that his staff is testifying before the ICTY, his staff
8 currently in the former Yugoslavia and else where may be subject to
9 revenge attacks or intimidation. That Trial Chamber granted a motion and
10 allowed counsel of the humanitarian organisation to be present in the
11 courtroom to assist the witness and the Trial Chamber on questions of
12 confidentiality that might arise in the course of the testimony.
13 In the Galic case, the Prosecution requests the presence of a
14 representative of a French government in the courtroom during their
15 testimony. The Trial Chamber granted a motion saying that it can
16 reasonably allege that the testimony of the witness might endanger the
17 safety of the French civilian and military personnel currently deployed on
18 the territory of the former Yugoslavia, and thereby infringing upon the
19 national, diplomatic and military interests of France.
20 In the Stakic case in which Judge Vassylenko and Judge Argibay
21 were sitting on that Bench, two representatives of the UK were present
22 while a military expert from the UK was testifying. They were authorised
23 to make submissions whether or not fundamental interests of that country
24 could be infringed by what has been said or is said in this courtroom.
25 It is well known that the same practice was followed in the Krstic
1 case, which is closely related to this case. Therefore, in this case the
2 Trial Chamber decided to grant the oral motion by the Prosecution,
3 allowing the representative of the U.S. government to be present during
4 the testimony of Mr. Butler to make submissions on whether or not the
5 fundamental interests of the U.S. government could be infringed upon. At
6 the same time, the Trial Chamber believes that by granting this kind of
7 protective measures, it would not infringe upon the rights of the accused
8 to a fair trial. It is so decided.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, may I leave to get back to work on
10 other matters before the next witness?
11 MS. SINATRA: I'm --
12 JUDGE LIU: I hope you could stay a little bit longer.
14 MS. SINATRA: I'm really sorry --
15 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Sinatra.
16 MS. SINATRA: Of course, I totally respect the decision of the
17 Trial Chamber in that area, but also Mr. McCloskey was limiting the scope
18 of cross-examination, basically telling us that we cannot go into areas
19 that are relevant and germane to the Defence of Mr. Jokic. So I would
20 like the Trial Chamber to consider this and tell us whether we can go into
21 areas that we need like to explore. If he's got all this protection, if
22 he's got his counsel in the courtroom, then there's use of private
23 session, there's use of closed session, but for the record we need to
24 explore these areas.
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, it depends on what kind of areas you are going
1 to explore. I believe that this Trial Chamber would make decisions on the
2 case-by-case issue, especially during your cross-examination. Thank you.
3 And another matter is that the other day Mr. Karnavas proposed two
4 documents to be tendered into the evidence, that is the document D73 and
5 D74, if I remember rightly. And Ms. Issa has promised to convey this
6 idea to Mr. McCloskey, the lead counsel, whether the Prosecution agreed or
8 Could I hear from the Prosecution on those two documents.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I think D72/1 is a newspaper
10 article which we had no objection for. And the other document was a
11 witness statement for a witness that has testified and we would object to
12 that along the grounds that we have normally gone under, plus we didn't
13 have an English version of that until after he testified.
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, as for the statement of the
15 witness is on the different occasions is not a statement before our
16 Tribunal. It's a statement before other judicial organs, if I remember
17 rightly, which makes a difference.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: If Your Honours feel this will be something that
19 will assist them, I have no objection. I believe it was a statement to
20 the police department -- a statement given to the police in Republika
21 Srpska. But I have no objection. If you feel it's going to provide you
22 some value, we would not object.
23 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Just very briefly. For the record, Your Honour,
25 it's my understanding that we're speaking about D71/1, and that would be
1 the interview that the gentleman had given to the Bratunac police station
2 back on 25 August, 2003. And then D72 is the article that appeared in the
3 newspaper. It just briefly -- Mr. McCloskey wasn't here to hear my
4 argument regarding these two documents, but the article itself is what
5 triggered then the investigation by the local police. And the gentleman
6 does make references to the article, in that he disagrees with contents of
7 the article which appear to have been direct quotes from the statement of
8 facts and acceptance of responsibility of Mr. Nikolic. Also, the
9 gentleman did indicate that after reading the article and after being
10 interviewed by the police, he was waiting for OTP to perhaps contact him,
11 as they had in the past, to provide further clarification or take a second
12 statement. So I do think that they are relevant and particularly the
13 statement itself I think dovetails his testimony, lest there be any
14 misunderstandings that the gentleman perhaps was fabricating what he was
15 saying here or was being less than honest or less than complete. I think
16 it all demonstrates that he went before an independent body that did an
17 investigation that was triggered as a result of the Nikolic's statement of
18 facts being published. That the statements that he gave to the police are
19 consistent with the statement that he had given to the Prosecutor, albeit
20 not the same, because the same questions were not being asked. And that
21 it was consistent with the statement that he had given here. And it also
22 ties in with the other witness's statement that testified at the Nikolic
23 sentencing hearing in that the denial of one particular aspect of
24 Mr. Nikolic's testimony dealing with the six killings. So I think it's
25 highly relevant. It's highly probative. And I think the Court should
1 give it considerable weight, although I leave that to the Trial Bench.
2 But I do think that this is appropriate and it is not the same sort of
3 statement that the Court has ruled on in the past, where the OTP has taken
4 a statement, then the witness comes in and testifies. And I'm in
5 agreement in those instances, the whole statement shouldn't come in,
6 perhaps portions of it. Here we're talking about a quite separate
7 situation. And therefore, perhaps now that Mr. McCloskey has heard the
8 argument, I am sure he can reflect and perhaps join me in agreeing that
9 the documents should be admitted for the Court's consideration. Thank
11 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much, Mr. Karnavas, for
12 correcting me on the numbers of those two documents. Since there is no
13 objections on the part of the Prosecution, so the document D71/1 and D72/1
14 are admitted into the evidence. It is so decided.
15 Yes, Mr. McCloskey. You may withdraw.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I'll be back on Monday.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
18 Could I have the next witness, please.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
22 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in
23 accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: WITNESS P-124
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
4 Ms. Davis.
5 MS. DAVIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Examined by Ms. Davis:
7 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 Q. Before we begin, I want to assure you that, as you probably can
10 tell, there are protective measures in place, that your image is being
11 distorted for the purposes of the outside world and that you're testifying
12 under a pseudonym. And I would ask you if at any time during my
13 questioning or subsequent questioning by the Defence or by the Trial
14 Chamber, if you're asked a question to which you can't respond without
15 providing identifying information, if you would let me know or let the
16 questioner know and then we can go into a private session.
17 If I could have the usher's assistance to provide the witness with
18 what's been marked for identification as P351.
19 Witness, if you could just take a look at that and verify that
20 your name is written on that piece of paper.
21 A. Yes, this is my name.
22 Q. What is your nationality?
23 A. I am a Bosniak, a Muslim.
24 Q. And can you tell us a little bit about your educational
1 A. I completed secondary school, eight years of education, and
2 secondary school which entailed three years of education.
3 Q. And during your secondary school years, did you have any
4 experience or training with radio communications?
5 A. During my education, no, I didn't.
6 Q. What about outside of formal education, did you have any training
7 during those years?
8 A. I was a member of a radio amateur club where I lived. In 1984 I
9 obtained the C grade certificate for radio amateurs. It was a hobby for
11 Q. What's involved in obtaining a C grade classification --
12 certificate, excuse me?
13 A. -- I got was a driving license. This is a radio amateur license,
14 grade C or category C --
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.
16 MS. SINATRA: I'm sorry. But according to the witness list of the
17 Prosecution that we were preparing with, this is not the witness that was
18 listed next to appear on their list. We may need a few moments to get our
19 files organised because we were expecting another witness, another
20 protected witness.
21 JUDGE LIU: Well, is there any change of the order of the
23 MS. DAVIS: I don't believe so, Your Honour, but we can double
24 check on the list we provided to the Court and to the Defence. I believe
25 this was the next witness listed, but we can double check if you give us a
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
3 MS. SINATRA: With permission and the assistance of the usher, I
4 would provide our list of the witnesses.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
6 MS. DAVIS: Your Honour, we believe this is an outdated list. I
7 think we have updated it since then. I'm not sure. Maybe Mr. Karnavas
8 could be of some assistance.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Perhaps we could go into closed session -- private
10 session, sorry.
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session, please.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: The --
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, wait. Yes, we are in private session.
14 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 MS. DAVIS: Are we now in open session, Your Honour?
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we are now in open session. You may proceed.
2 MS. DAVIS:
3 Q. Witness, can you tell us what's involved in obtaining a C category
5 A. In order to obtain a C category certificate, you needed to be able
6 to receive a certain number of Morse code signs per minute and you needed
7 to be able to type them at the same speed. You needed to be familiar with
8 international codes for countries, especially when surrounded. And you
9 needed to know international abbreviations for establishing communication.
10 You also needed to be familiar with antennas and with the equipment that
11 you were expected to work with. I'm referring here to the radio
13 Q. And where did you learn what you've just described?
14 A. I learned this from my friends in the town where I was born.
15 After I completed my training, there was an exam we had to take before a
17 Q. Was there a time later on when you obtained an additional
19 A. Yes. Later on I obtained a B category certificate. That was in
20 1993, I believe.
21 Q. Did you at some point serve in a mandatory -- provide mandatory
22 service in the JNA?
23 A. Yes, I was in the JNA, in Pristina, that is in Kosovo, from
21 Q. What kind of equipment did you use or did you receive any training
22 in any particular radio communications equipment during your service in
23 the JNA?
24 A. There was Russian equipment in the armoured vehicles. Those were
25 large devices and we were not trained to use those as standard equipment
1 in our first six months of training. We were self-taught, we used
2 handbooks to learn that. We used manuals to learn how to operate those
3 Russian devices.
4 Q. Aside from the Russian devices, were there other radio
5 communications equipment that you learned to use during the course of your
6 service in the JNA?
7 A. During the course of service in the JNA, everyone learned how to
8 operate the various RUPs. Those were hand-held devices, RUP-12 or PRC,
9 which was produced in Canada, and we had another device that was produced
10 in Yugoslavia also called PRC. Those were radio sets. In the other half
11 of our training after our initial training, the other six months, we were
12 taught how to use the radio relay device number 1, and we had some
13 superficial training in operating the HVT radio relay. We were taught
14 about its spare parts, components, and so on, nothing very specific,
16 Q. And you say that you were trained in how to use radio relay device
17 number 1. Is there a specific name for that device?
18 A. The abbreviation is RRU-1, which means radio relay device number
20 Q. And the HVT radio relay, is there another name for that device?
21 A. HVT, no, there is no other name.
22 Q. After you left the -- your compulsory service in the JNA, I
23 believe you said it was in December 1989, and were once again a civilian,
24 did you have an opportunity to put your radio communications experience to
1 A. I was still a member of the radio amateur club, and we took part
2 in competitions that were organised every first weekend of the month.
3 Those were radio amateur competitions.
4 Q. Did your training in the use of radio communications equipment
5 continue after you left the compulsory service in the JNA, whether formal
6 or informal?
7 A. Well, yes, I took part in those competitions, which was some form
8 of training.
9 Q. When did you join the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
10 A. I joined the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina in July 1992.
11 Q. And to which unit did you belong?
12 A. I joined the electronic surveillance and anti-electronic warfare
14 Q. If I can direct your attention specifically to July 1995, can you
15 tell the Trial Chamber where you were stationed at that time.
16 A. In July 1995, I was stationed at Konjuh. It was a separate
18 Q. And what were you -- were you at Konjuh with the electronic
19 reconnaissance and anti-electronic warfare unit?
20 A. Yes. Yes, I was. I was still in the same unit at that time. We
21 carried out reconnaissance.
22 Q. If you could explain in a little more detail what your duties and
23 responsibilities were. I'm going to ask you momentarily to take us step
24 by step through some procedures, but if you can just describe generally
25 what your duties and responsibilities were at Konjuh.
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, I have to remind you that the word the
8 counsel has spoken to you at the beginning of the direct examination. You
9 have to be very careful. Do you know what I mean?
10 MS. DAVIS: Perhaps we could go into private session momentarily,
11 Your Honour.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes. You may proceed, Ms. Davis. Shall we go to
13 private session?
14 MS. DAVIS: Yes, if we could just for a moment.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session.
16 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 MS. DAVIS:
24 Q. You were describing for us, witness --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.
1 MS. DAVIS: I apologise.
2 Q. You were describing for us, Witness, generally what some of your
3 duties were while you were stationed at Konjuh. What was the
4 responsibility of the unit as a whole at Konjuh?
5 A. The unit at Konjuh monitored the Drina Corps zone and the general
6 staff, that's their communications, their communication lines, the lines
7 of the Drina. That is, we covered a zone between Zvornik, that's to the
8 left, to the east, and then to the south all the way to Sarajevo. That
9 was our zone. That's what we monitored from Konjuh.
10 Q. So do I understand that you were monitoring communications of the
11 VRS within the region that you described?
12 A. Yes, we did. We were monitoring communications within that zone.
13 Q. You mentioned the Drina Corps and the Main Staff. Were there
14 other units or subordinate brigades of the VRS that you were monitoring in
15 July 1995 at Konjuh?
16 A. When I referred to the Drina Corps, I meant the communications of
17 the subordinated brigades at corps level. I also meant the links between
18 the corps and the general staff, well some of them.
19 Q. If I could have the assistance of the usher. This is --
20 MS. DAVIS: I'm showing the witness Exhibit P318.
21 Q. Witness, if you could use the pointer and indicate on the map the
22 location of Konjuh where your unit was positioned.
23 A. Konjuh is right here.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you. We can leave that on the ELMO for the moment.
25 Can you describe the location, can you describe Konjuh where your unit was
1 positioned from a geographical perspective.
2 A. Well, Konjuh is an elevation of 1.326 metres high. The reason the
3 unit was stationed there was in order to be able to better monitor the
4 radio relay communications. This is a dominant feature in this particular
5 area of Bosnia.
6 Q. You told us that you were in Konjuh as of July 1985. Can you tell
7 us when you arrived at Konjuh.
8 A. 1985, that was the interpretation I got. It wasn't in 1985.
19 Q. I apologise for the confusion. What I meant to ask was before you
20 left Okresanica and went to Konjuh, had you ever spent any time at this
21 location in Konjuh before prior to May 1995?
22 A. Yes. Back in 1984 when I obtained my radio amateur certificate.
23 There were competitions, radio amateur competitions, as I said ever first
24 weekend of the month. And we would go to Konjuh sometimes.
25 Q. And why would the amateur -- I'm sorry.
1 A. I mean, we didn't enter the military facilities there, because
2 those were occupied by the JNA. In addition to our antenna we also had a
3 small shack that we built for ourselves and a tent.
4 Q. And why did the amateur ham radio club go to Konjuh for
6 A. We used to go there because that is an elevation. It's a very
7 dominant position. The so-called DX communication was possible and the
8 range is over 3.000 kilometres. You had to take into account the distance
9 involved. The more communications you had, the better the range was.
10 Q. You mentioned also a moment ago that you had been at Okresanica.
11 Can you tell us when you were at Okresanica.
12 A. Okresanica, I can't remember the exact date. First we were in
13 Lipik which was near Okresanica. Lipik is smaller than Okresanica itself,
14 and then we crossed over to Okresanica itself, because that was a more
15 dominant feature in the area, which made our monitoring activity easier.
16 But I can't remember the exact date. It was perhaps about -- well, I
17 don't know, but I do remember that it was wintertime back in 1993.
18 Q. So you were at Okresanica you believe from winter 1993 and were
19 you up there until May of 1994 when you went to Konjuh?
20 A. Yes. Yes.
21 Q. And can you also indicate the location of Okresanica on the map
22 that's on the ELMO to your right.
23 A. Okresanica is further north from Konjuh or Tuzla, if you like.
24 Q. I'd like to focus on Konjuh and the period July 1995. Can you
25 tell me how many soldiers were working in that unit intercepting
1 communications in July 1995.
2 A. There were two shifts usually at the location. One shift were us
3 and the second shift was there close to a location. There were about ten
4 of us. I don't know the exact number.
5 Q. I didn't understand what you meant when you said there were two
6 shifts and the second shift was there closed to a location. Could you
7 explain that again.
8 A. One shift was from one town and the other was practically, let's
9 say, from a different town. So from my town, there were about ten of us.
10 And this other team would be at home at that time. We had shifts.
11 Q. Can you tell us again how long the shifts were.
12 A. It depended on the fuel. From seven to ten days, sometimes it
13 would be up to 14 days.
14 Q. And then after a seven- to ten-day shift, your group would be
15 replaced by the second group. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes. Then we would go home to rest.
17 Q. During the seven- to ten-day shifts, what was your work schedule?
18 A. We worked in the workroom where the equipment was. The shifts
19 were of four hours length. We would work for four hours, and then we
20 would rest for eight hours. And then we would come back to the shift
21 again, except the night shifts. The night shifts were longer.
22 Q. How long were the night shifts?
23 A. I can't remember exactly, but I think they were eight hours long.
24 Q. You mentioned the room where the equipment was. Can you describe
25 the equipment that you all used to intercept communications at Konjuh.
1 A. This was amateur equipment that you could practically buy in town,
2 here specifically. The receivers were also there. We actually had the
3 transceivers, but we received them at receivers -- we used them as
4 receivers. We also had amateur receivers that we were using. This wasn't
5 professional equipment.
6 Q. What were the transceivers that you used?
7 A. They were short wave transceivers, and so they could only be used
8 for receiving as well as transceiving. We were using them for reception
9 but they also had the possibility to search channels by frequency. The
10 equipment that we used was generally equipment of Japanese manufacture.
11 Q. Do you remember the brand names of the transceivers that you used?
12 A. It was Kenwood, Icom, AR receiver also. So these were mostly the
13 devices that we had.
14 Q. Do you recall specifically in July 1995 what type of transceivers
15 were being used at Konjuh?
16 A. These devices were also used at Okresanica. The Kenwood 450S,
17 Icom 100 or ICR100, Icom ICR7000, ECR7000, R -- ECR71 [as interpreted],
18 which was also an Icom piece of equipment. So this was mostly the
19 equipment that we used.
20 Q. Aside from transceivers and receivers, did you also have tape
21 recorders at Konjuh?
22 A. Besides that equipment, we also had UHER tape recorders of German
24 Q. And how many work stations, if you can remember, were there,
25 approximately, at Konjuh? How many individual operators could be working
1 at once monitoring frequencies?
2 A. The Konjuh facility had three stations to monitor multi-channel
3 radio relay communications. We also had two, three, or more RRU-1s to
4 monitor single channel radio relay communications.
5 MS. DAVIS: If I could have the assistance of the usher.
6 Q. I'm going to show you a photograph that has been marked for
7 identification as P319. And I would ask you if you recognise this piece
8 of equipment. I don't know if it's going to appear on your monitor.
9 A. Yes, I recognise this equipment.
10 Q. And what is it, can you tell us?
11 A. On the left side of the picture is a Kenwood TS450S, in this case
12 450S. This is a transceiver. And then on the right side, we have an Icom
14 Q. And can you tell us what did the piece of equipment on the left,
15 what its function is.
16 A. In this combination with the ICR100 device, this piece of
17 equipment was used to separate channels. So we had 24 memorised channels
18 programmed into it.
19 Q. If I could have you look now at what's been marked as P320 and ask
20 you as well whether you recognise this piece of equipment.
21 A. I recognise it.
22 Q. Can you tell us what it is.
23 A. This is an UHER tape recorder report 4000, I think, R4000, that
24 was the model.
25 Q. Were these UHER tape recorders used in combination with the
1 equipment you saw in the other photograph?
2 A. They were used to record from this device, from the Kenwood
4 Q. If you could describe for the Trial Chamber the procedure that you
5 used using the equipment that we've seen in these photographs to monitor
6 conversations, starting from the beginning of the process, if you can.
7 A. When we came into the workroom, somebody would always be there.
8 Somebody was also there through the night. So if you worked the first
9 shift, somebody would already be there. I would usually be the first
10 person to come. I would ask if there had been any traffic. Was there
11 anything in particular. Then that person would convey that to me. Then I
12 would take his place. The equipment was already scanning usually, that's
13 what we would call it, scanning, searching. So it would be skipping from
14 one memorised channel to the next.
15 When a conversation occurred, then I would stop the scanning, I
16 would find the channel where the conversation was taking place, and I
17 would begin to record on the tape recorder, and I would also listen to
18 that conversation, unless I had another piece of equipment next to me.
19 Because we would also combine this with the monitoring of single-channel
20 frequencies. For example, we would be monitoring the RRU-1. I was now
21 talking about the monitoring of multi-channel traffic, which would be done
22 by the RRU-800 equipment. I would tape the conversation. Afterwards, I
23 would stop the tape recorder. When I taped the conversation, I would
24 write down the frequency and the channel on the piece of paper where this
25 was recorded on the UHER or the tape recorder, if there was a counter. So
1 if the counter was working, I would write down the number. I would note
2 down the number where it began and then when the conversation was
3 finished, I would note down the number on the counter as well. If I had
4 listened to the conversation, I would note down something which would
5 remind me or associate me with that conversation. So this is what I would
6 use a piece of paper for.
7 After the conversation was complete, I would again initiate the
8 scan function. If another conversation occurred, I would record that. I
9 would stop the scanning. I would initiate the recording function. I
10 would note it down. So I would use the same procedure. If I was
11 listening, then I would note down a few remarks about the conversation.
12 Q. Okay. Let me stop you there. You mentioned that when you found a
13 conversation, when the scanning landed upon a conversation you would begin
14 to tape record, did you always begin the tape recording at the beginning
15 of the conversation?
16 A. Since the device would be scanning, sometimes it would not catch
17 the beginning of a conversation. But in any case, it would always stop
18 and I would continue the taping regardless of whether it was the beginning
19 or the middle of the conversation.
20 Q. And you indicated that you noted down on a piece of paper some
21 details about the conversation. Can you tell us precisely what
22 information you would note down on a piece of paper when you stopped the
23 machine and began -- stopped the scanning and began tape recording.
24 A. A piece of paper, I would write down -- on the piece of paper I
25 would write down the frequency, the channel, the counter number, and I
1 would also jot down names if I heard any names or I would jot down
2 something from the conversation or what they were talking about. For
3 example, if they were looking for tyres, I would say something about
4 tyres, so that I would know what the conversation was about.
5 MS. DAVIS: Your Honour, it might be a good time for a break.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes. And before that, Ms. Davis, can I ask you a
8 MS. DAVIS: Yes.
9 JUDGE LIU: Is it necessary to ask every intercept witness to show
10 the equipment, the locations, the procedures? We have heard about two or
11 three of these kind of witnesses already. So I believe you could
12 streamline that part, at least the first 30 minutes.
13 Yes, Ms. Sinatra.
14 MS. SINATRA: If I just might assist. This is a different
15 location and we're quite curious as to what evidence they have at this
16 location versus the other one that the witnesses have testified to.
17 JUDGE LIU: I understand that.
18 Mr. Karnavas.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: I certainly would not be raising any objections.
20 You know, in other words, I would be willing to stipulate.
21 MS. DAVIS: Your Honour --
22 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Davis.
23 MS. DAVIS: Yes, I was just confirming that the witnesses thus far
24 had all been from Okresanica and that was the reason I was going through
25 the same steps. But I can certainly try and streamline it. I don't
1 expect to have more than another half an hour with this witness.
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. And we'll resume at 4.00
3 --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Davis.
6 MS. DAVIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Witness, before the break you were telling us that you -- at the
8 time you began tape recording a conversation you would note down an a
9 piece of paper some particulars. One of the things you mentioned was
10 participants. I would like to ask you how did you identify participants
11 to note them down on a piece of paper? What were the various ways?
12 A. There were cases when the participants themselves introduced
13 themselves during the conversation, at the beginning of the conversation.
14 When we wouldn't catch the beginning of a conversation, then we knew many
15 of the participants in the telephone conversations by their voices. So we
16 would write down the name based on that. Then by listening later, we
17 would determine whether that was that participant or not.
18 Q. After you finished tape recording a conversation, what would you
19 do next?
20 A. After recording the conversation, we would then allow the scanning
21 function to continue until we would tape a certain number of
22 conversations. And then after a certain amount of time, I would begin to
23 transcribe the conversations down on paper. I would let the device
24 continue scanning, and I would continue taping if there were more
1 Q. Now, when you say you would transcribe the conversations down on
2 paper, where would you transcribe them in particular? Was it into
3 notebooks or the scraps of paper we were talking about earlier?
4 A. When I began transcribing the conversation, I would wind back to
5 the first conversation, if there was several conversations. I had a
6 notebook at that time. Before we were transcribing the conversations on
7 pieces of paper in earlier years, but at that time we already had
8 notebooks where we would note down the frequency, the time, and the
9 channel. So we would put that down in the notebook. Then we would write
10 down the participants, if we knew them, the names of the participants,
11 their rank if we knew it. And then we would take down the conversation
13 Q. And what was the process for taking down the conversation from the
14 tape, if you could just tell us briefly.
15 A. The process was as following: After recording, I would play back
16 a small portion of the conversation, write it down, pause, write it down,
17 and then I would continue until I completed transcribing the entire
19 Q. What would you do if there was a portion of the tape that you
20 couldn't understand the first time through?
21 A. If I couldn't understand a part of the recording, I would call a
22 colleague or several colleagues. So several of us would check, because
23 perhaps some one might hear it a little better. If we were not sure about
24 a certain part of the tape, we would put down dots. But if we were sure,
25 then we would transcribe what was said.
1 Q. Now, you described to us some various ways which you might
2 identify participants, what would you do if you didn't -- weren't able to
3 identify a participant, either by voice recognition or
4 self-identification? What would you write down in the notebook if you
5 didn't know the participants?
6 A. If we didn't know the participants, then we would write down
7 participant X or participant Y or we would mark them by numbers, 1 and 2.
8 Q. And after you had finished transcribing the conversation in the
9 manner in which you described, what would you do with the notebook or what
10 would you do next?
11 A. The notebook would be given to the person who would be typing the
12 reports into the computer. So it would be given to this person for him to
13 transfer the text on to the computer.
14 Q. And what happened to the information that was transcribed into the
15 computer after that, if you know?
16 A. There was a person there who when we compiled enough conversations
17 that were transcribed into the computer, we would send a telegram. We
18 would encrypt it and then send it on to the command through our
20 Q. Do you know what happened to the information once it was sent to
21 the command?
22 A. The information was processed down there. There was a team
23 responsible for analysis of data and they would process that and pass that
24 on to their superiors, all the intelligence data.
25 Q. Were you responsible for performing any analysis of the data that
1 you were -- the conversations that you were monitoring and transcribing?
2 A. No, we were not responsible for the processing of the data. We
3 were responsible for transcribing the conversations from the tapes to the
4 paper, that's all.
5 MS. DAVIS: If I could have the usher's assistance.
6 Q. I'm going to show you what has been marked for identification as
7 P335. And if I can ask you, sir, to turn to the page in the notebook that
8 is marked with the number at the top of the page 0080 -- perhaps the usher
9 can help you -- 0871.
10 A. I see the page.
11 Q. Do you recognise the handwriting on that page?
12 A. Yes, I do. That's my handwriting.
13 Q. And can you tell us, do you see a date on the page?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. And what's the date that's written there?
16 A. It is the 14th of July, 1995.
17 Q. Is that written in your handwriting?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. Okay. Can you tell me from looking at this what the notebook that
20 you're holding in your hands is.
21 A. This is the notebook from my unit while I was at Konjuh.
22 Q. I don't know if this is -- go ahead.
23 A. This is an intercepted transcribed conversation which I had
24 transferred from the UHER to the notebook.
25 Q. Looking at the first conversation that appears on that page 0871,
1 can you tell us what time were whether a time is reflected for that
3 A. Yes, you can see the time.
4 Q. And what is the time that is reflected?
5 A. It's 9.00 and 5 minutes.
6 Q. And when you transcribed from the UHER into the notebook, how
7 would you have known the time to write down there in the notebook?
8 A. When the conversation was taped from the device to the UHER tape
9 recorder, I would write down the time, the frequency, and the channel on a
10 piece of paper.
11 Q. So on the scrap of paper that you were describing before, in
12 addition to the frequency and the channel, you would also write the time
13 the conversation started. Is that right?
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. And what can you tell for this particular intercept about the
16 channel and the frequency on which it was found?
17 A. This is 872.500 frequency. It was recorded on channel 9 at 5 past
18 9.00 from a multi-channel transceiver -- from a multi-channel radio relay
19 device RRU-800.
20 MS. DAVIS: If I could have the usher's assistance for one moment.
21 I'm giving to the witness now what's been marked as P226. And,
22 Madam Usher, if you could have the second page which is 226/B showing on
23 the ELMO.
24 Q. I'm afraid, Witness, this isn't the best copy, but I wonder if you
25 could confirm for me that P226/B, which is showing on the ELMO, is a
1 photocopy of the page that we were discussing in the notebook, 0871.
2 A. Yes, this is a copy of it.
3 Q. And can you tell us what's written beneath the -- on the next line
4 after the channel and the frequency information.
5 A. The participants in the conversation, the duty officer, and
6 General Zivanovic.
7 Q. Now, you mentioned that it says the duty officer. I notice that
8 that's not a specific name. Does that mean that you didn't recognise the
9 voice of this participant?
10 A. Yes. We didn't recognise the duty officer's voice.
11 Q. And can you tell us how you determined that it was the duty
12 officer speaking.
13 A. The General repeated after him, the duty officer.
14 Q. The next participant listed is General Zivanovic. Can you tell us
15 how you would have recognised that it was General Zivanovic.
16 A. Well, he often took part in these conversations, and we were
17 familiar with his voice, most of the operators were. He had a very
18 peculiar kind of phone that he was using. I'm not sure if it's his voice
19 or the phone that was the basis of this particular identification.
20 Q. How many times would you estimate that you heard General Zivanovic
21 speaking over intercepted communications?
22 A. Well, I don't know exactly what the number was, but from 1992 and
23 1993 we would monitor him regularly because he spoke regularly. I can't
24 give you the exact number of times that we did, but he spoke very often
25 because he was the corps commander.
1 Q. Would you estimate that you heard his voice hundreds of times --
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection, calls for speculation --
3 MS. DAVIS:
4 Q. Thousands of times --
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection, calls for speculation. She can ask the
6 question how often he heard. But to be giving the witness suggestions as
7 to how many times is clearly inappropriate.
8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Davis, you have to lead us step by step.
9 MS. DAVIS:
10 Q. Witness, can you give us any estimation of how many times you
11 heard General Zivanovic speaking over the radio between 1992 and 1995.
12 A. Well, he would speak regularly every morning. He would talk to
13 his subordinates every morning, so to speak. Now, as for the exact
14 number, I spent a lot of time in the field, but I listened to him very
15 often. In addition to his regular appearances, he would run his daily
16 business over the phone, but I can't give you the exact number. But in
17 those years, those two years or whatever, he was being monitored.
18 MS. DAVIS: If the usher could turn to I believe it should be /C
19 of the same exhibit. Sorry. The original version, not the translation.
20 Maybe it's /D.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.
22 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I would just like to object that we
23 just received the exhibit list from the Prosecutor for this witness, but
24 also the copy that we have been provided of this conversation she's
25 referring to only has an A and B attached to it, we don't have a C or a D.
1 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Davis.
2 MS. DAVIS: Yes, I believe this was provided by Mr. Waespi earlier
3 today. I don't know if Ms. Sinatra didn't receive it, but we have another
4 copy we can provide.
5 MS. SINATRA: Well, I would appreciate another copy because we
6 didn't receive it until at the last break and we don't have the document.
7 We only received the exhibit list.
8 MS. DAVIS: It was actually provided at noon today, but we have
9 another copy here. We would be happy to --
10 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, might I also ask that whenever they're
11 going to disclose documents or exhibit lists at the last minute, that they
12 provide them to us in the courtroom instead of putting them in the locker
13 downstairs which we don't go by until we come in the building and out of
14 the building.
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, the hand-to-hand delivery will be most
16 preferable, I believe. Ms. Sinatra will seldom check her locker.
17 MS. DAVIS: Your Honour, I didn't do it personally, but I believe
18 it was a hand-to-hand delivery to a member of the Jokic team by Mr. Waespi
19 today. It was not placed in their locker is my understanding.
20 JUDGE LIU: I see. You may proceed.
21 MS. DAVIS:
22 Q. Witness, looking at the page that's now appearing on the ELMO
23 which should be /D of this exhibit, 226, can you tell me whether you
24 recognise this document.
25 A. I recognise this. This is a typed up copy of the conversation
1 that I did on the computer. This was printed from a computer.
2 Q. Do you recognise the format as something that's familiar to you?
3 A. Yes. I'm familiar with this header. That's what we usually wrote
4 or typed into our computer.
5 Q. So is this the type of document you were referring to earlier when
6 you mentioned that the transcribed conversations in the notebook were
7 typed into the computer and sent to the command?
8 A. Yes. That's precisely that.
9 Q. Looking at the second conversation that appears on the page, I
10 notice that there is something that says "zone 2," at the beginning of the
11 conversation. Can you tell me what "zone 2" means.
12 A. Zone 2 is the zone that we monitored. It's the zone stretching
13 south from Zvornik towards Sarajevo. That's the name we used for that
14 zone, zone 2.
15 Q. If you would, Witness, turn the page in the notebook that you have
16 before you, which again is for the Court's reference Exhibit P335. If you
17 could turn the page to 0872, there is a second conversation. I believe at
18 the top of the page there's the end of the conversation from the page
19 before. And there appears to be a second conversation. Do you recognise
20 the handwriting for that conversation?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. And whose handwriting is it?
23 A. It's mine.
24 Q. Do you -- can you tell from the notebook what the date is of this
1 A. This is after the first conversation but the same date, the 14th
2 of July, 1995.
3 Q. And what is the time of the conversation?
4 A. 35 minutes past 9.00.
5 Q. Can you also indicate what the channel and frequency information
6 for this conversation is.
7 A. This was on frequency 872.500, channel 9.
8 MS. DAVIS: If the usher could show the witness what is marked as
9 P228. And if we can look at the handwritten page which should be /B, I
10 believe, on the ELMO, yes.
11 Q. Witness, if you can verify for me that the text that's appearing
12 on the ELMO is a copy of page 0871?
13 A. Yes. It's a copy of 0879 [as interpreted].
14 Q. And again, if we could look at /D of the same exhibit. It should
15 be ...
16 And again, I would ask you if -- in fact, this is the same
17 document you were shown with the last exhibit. And if I can just ask you
18 if it reflects a typed version of the intercept that you have been looking
19 at on that page. This would be the last conversation that appears on this
20 exhibit -- I'm sorry, the second to last.
21 A. Well, I don't see the conversation. What I see is the one after
23 Q. At the bottom of the first page, if I could direct your
24 attention --
25 A. All right. Now I can see it. Yes, it's the same. It's this
1 conversation transcribed on to a computer.
2 Q. Does it appear to be a conversation transcribed on to a computer
3 at your location at Konjuh?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, just one final exercise. You recall meeting with me in our
6 offices on Monday of this week, and I showed you a number of notebooks
7 that you had an opportunity to flip through at that time.
8 A. I remember that. I do.
9 Q. And do you remember that I asked you to look through the notebook
10 and see if you could identify your handwriting in them?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. And I also asked you to place a green sticker on the pages where
13 you could identify your handwriting.
14 A. Yes, I remember.
15 Q. And I'm going to show you those notebooks now one at a time. And
16 if you could just flip to the green sticker on each notebook and let me
17 know if, in fact, the notebook contains your handwriting.
18 We can begin with -- this is Exhibit P340.
19 A. Yes. This is my handwriting.
20 Q. Do you see any date in the notebook that would help you identify
21 the time period the notebook is for?
22 A. Yes, at the beginning of the notebook, the date is the 13th of
23 June, 1995. I was at Konjuh then and there's another date later on, the
24 19th of June, 1995.
25 Q. So this is a notebook from Konjuh --
1 A. Throughout that period -- this is a notebook from Konjuh and
2 that's where I spent this particular period of time.
3 Q. Okay. Thank you. The next is Exhibit P338. If I could ask you
4 to look at that notebook and let me know if you can identify it as a
5 notebook from Konjuh.
6 A. Yes, same thing. During that period of time, I was at Konjuh.
7 Also, there's my friend's handwriting, the one who was with me there.
8 Q. Okay. The next notebook is P325. And I'm just going to ask you
9 to do the same thing with each one of these notebooks and we'll try to be
10 as quick as we can.
11 A. Yes. Again, you have a date here. I inserted the date. This is
12 also from Konjuh.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you. This is Exhibit P342.
14 A. Yes. This is also from Konjuh.
15 Q. Thank you. P329.
16 A. Yes. This notebook, too, is from Konjuh. It also bears a date
17 that I wrote.
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.
19 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I'm sorry, but because these are
20 notebooks from Konjuh really has no significance to us without some kind
21 of identifying procedure at the first that this notebook represents
22 notations from one period to another period. Otherwise these have
23 absolutely no relevance to the proceedings.
24 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, we may take an example for one of the
25 notebooks. But from the testimony of this witness, I believe that he told
1 us clearly the notebook is recorded at that period of time. But if you
2 want to make more relevant to this case, we may take an example of that.
3 MS. DAVIS: I'm happy to have him go through each notebook. I was
4 trying to save some time for everybody.
5 JUDGE LIU: Maybe just one.
6 MS. DAVIS: Okay. Let's do it with this last one or second to
7 last one is P327.
8 Q. If you can tell us, Witness, whether you can identify your
9 handwriting in the notebook.
10 A. I can.
11 Q. And can you identify the dates for this notebook?
12 A. Yes, I can. The participants, more specifically -- no, no. I
13 didn't write down a date but my colleagues did.
14 Q. I'm actually speaking about the notebook itself. If you can tell
15 us what the first date that you can identify in the notebook from the
16 first page on, what the first date is that you can find.
17 A. The first one is when the notebook was filed.
18 Q. And what is that date?
19 A. The date is the 14th of June, 1995.
20 Q. And turning to the back of the notebook, if you can look through
21 the pages there and see if you can identify any date at the back or
22 towards the back.
23 A. On the very next page there is a date, the 3rd of July, 1995. And
24 at the end of the notebook, there is no date but there are frequencies
25 that were taken down during the search of the range.
1 Q. Looking at the intercepts that appear in the notebook towards the
2 back of the notebook, is there anything dated that might indicate to you
3 what the end range of the period that this notebook was in use was?
4 A. This notebook was used from the 3rd of July, 1995. The last date
5 I found is the 23rd of July, 1995, meaning from the 3rd of July to the
6 23rd of July, 1995.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, you mentioned the date, the registration
8 date of the 14th of June earlier. Just for clarification, can you explain
9 what the registration date is of the notebook.
10 A. I wasn't the one who did that. There was another man in the
11 company who was in charge of that. This person would register the
12 notebook, give it a number and a date when the handbook was given out, the
13 notebook was given out.
14 Q. Does the registration date not necessarily coincide with the first
15 date that the notebook was used to transcribe intercepts?
16 A. No. The registration date, that was done by a person back at the
17 command. When there was a rotation of the shift, he would send blank
18 notebooks, new notebooks, for us to use out in the field whenever
20 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
21 MS. DAVIS: I don't have any further questions.
22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
23 Any cross-examination?
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. I do have some cross.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
1 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:
2 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. Now, I just have a few questions and they're sort of specific. As
5 I understand it, once the intercepts were written out, the messages were
6 written out, they were then typed out, encrypted, and sent off. Is that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And I would take it that whoever was doing the typing was supposed
10 to be faithful to what was written down; in other words, they could not or
11 should not take any liberties in typing something that was not or had not
12 been written out. Is that correct?
13 A. This person could add dots, question marks, just in order to
14 clarify whether the sound was clear or the reason, for example, if a
15 participant could not be heard very clearly. I did not take the whole
16 thing down myself, but the person typing would put dots, and I knew that
17 the other participant could not be heard clearly. So he would just put
18 his own there, you know, he did it. He would write it.
19 Q. Okay. Just to make sure that I'm clear. The person typing would
20 have the handwritten notebook or notes and he would be typing out, but
21 were they also listening in to what you had picked up, what you had
22 recorded as well, to double check what was written out was consistent with
23 what had been recorded?
24 A. Well, no. He didn't check. He just took my notebook and he would
25 transfer it on to a computer.
1 Q. Okay. And if I understand you correctly, there might be some
2 times when they would add a period or some dots, use some punctuation, to
3 make sure that the text was clear. Is that my -- is my understanding
5 A. He would type it in the workroom usually. He was there, so he was
6 in a position to ask me whether he should ask me or something else, if
7 there is a question mark at the end of a sentence.
8 Q. Okay. All right. And was punctuation sort of critical or was it
9 getting -- writing down the message the most important aspect of it when
10 you were listening in and trying then to write out what had been recorded?
11 A. I didn't understand the question.
12 Q. Okay. All right. As I understand the procedure, and I'll try not
13 to confuse you. But as I understand it, you would record a conversation,
14 and then at some point you would need to write out what had been recorded,
15 what had been tape recorded. My question is: When you would write out,
16 the handwritten portion that was put into the notebooks, in doing that,
17 given the time limitations and the work load, was punctuation a major
18 portion of the transcription or was it something that was just done on an
19 arbitrary basis?
20 A. Well, the most important thing was what was being said, because if
21 you looked at that you could tell if it was a question or -- what do you
22 call that? I always listened to the conversations again and again. If
23 there was a recording of the conversation, I would listen to it again
24 before I started taking it down in the notebook. Then I would rewind to
25 the beginning and I take down all the participants. If I failed to get
1 their names the first time around, then I would take the whole thing down
2 and I would write the conversation that they had.
3 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, you were shown by the Prosecutor what
4 has been marked as P327, that's one of the notebooks. Perhaps it can be
5 provided to you if it's not with you at the moment.
6 Now, if you could be so kind as to turn to the page that is
7 numbered on the left side of the notebook as 00804535, if you could just
8 look at that.
9 A. 4535?
10 Q. 4535, that's correct, sir. Do you see that?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Now, by any chance, is that your handwriting?
13 A. This is not my handwriting.
14 Q. Okay. But nonetheless you recognise this notebook as being one of
15 the notebooks that was used by your unit?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Now, I would like to now show you, even though this wasn't
18 yours, but nonetheless the Prosecutor is using you to get this entire
19 notebook into evidence, I would like to now show you what has been marked
20 by the Prosecution --
21 MR. KARNAVAS: I would like to complete the sentence before I get
22 the objection so at least I have my record, Your Honour.
23 Q. What has been marked for identification purposes as P245 and I
24 should note for the record that there is an A, B, C, and D. And we were
25 provided with E, F, G, and H this afternoon.
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Davis.
2 MS. DAVIS: Your Honour, this witness has already noted that this
3 was not an intercept that he took down, and I'm not sure it's appropriate
4 to ask him specific questions about intercepts that he did not take down,
5 even if it was from his unit. I will also represent that the intercept
6 operator who did take this intercept down will be appearing before the
8 MR. KARNAVAS: With that representation, Your Honour, I have no
9 further questions, assuming that they will be bringing that person in so I
10 can confront them with what was written down versus what was sent out.
11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
12 MS. DAVIS: We would be happy to tell Mr. Karnavas during the next
13 break which witness that is. That's no problem.
14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you very much.
16 Q. Sir thank you very much.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
18 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Sinatra.
19 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour, I have a few questions, but if you
20 like I can move to that -- I need the podium to see -- thank you very
22 Cross-examined by Ms. Sinatra:
23 Q. Dobar dan, sir.
24 A. Good day.
25 Q. I just wanted to ask you -- the counsel for Blagojevic has just
1 said that there are several things that are arbitrary, but the decision as
2 to what conversation is important enough to record and transcribe is
3 totally up to the intercept operator, isn't it?
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Davis.
5 MS. DAVIS: I think the witness did not testified to that. And I
6 am not sure that counsel has even accurately represented what Mr. Karnavas
7 said, so I would object to the form of the question.
8 JUDGE LIU: But I remember that Mr. Karnavas asked the same
9 question more or less on this line. Maybe Ms. Sinatra could rephrase it.
10 MS. SINATRA: I shall.
11 Q. Excuse me, sir, but the decision as to what is considered an
12 important enough intercept to record and transcribe is totally a decision
13 made by the intercept operator, isn't it?
14 A. Not in that sense. It's not exclusively his responsibility. We
15 were told to transcribe even a name if it cropped up. So even if it was a
16 name, we would write it down, a new officer, a new secret name of a
17 participant, even though there was no important content to the
18 conversation, even if the conversation was of a private nature, then we
19 wouldn't record it. But the rest we would.
20 Q. Your basic direction for monitoring was important people or people
21 who had a lot of command responsibility were considered to be important
22 conversations to intercept. Right?
23 A. The people who were important, the officers, their names, if they
24 appeared, then secret names which would come up as well.
25 Q. And -- okay. I'm going to go forward with this. Secret names are
1 the code names you determined for individual people?
2 A. The secret names were not used for people. They were used for
3 units which were -- which they had. I'm saying officers if the
4 conversation is not important. If the conversation is not important, if
5 it's of a private nature, they did not have to be transcribed to paper.
6 Q. I want to ask you about a term that I know you're familiar with.
7 Are you familiar with Operativno Maskiranje?
8 A. Operativno Maskiranje, I am familiar with masking, but operative
9 masking, I've never encountered that term.
10 Q. And masking is part of your signals unit just daily consideration.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In fact, masking involves misinformation. Right?
14 A. It is deception. That's what it's called.
15 Q. It's very common in all military structures, especially during
16 combat operations, isn't it?
17 A. I don't know how common that is.
18 Q. You were in the JNA. It was common with the JNA, too, wasn't it?
19 A. We didn't use deception.
20 Q. You didn't use any kind of planting fake conversations or planting
21 fake names or providing misinformation for the enemy?
22 A. No.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Davis.
24 MS. DAVIS: I would like some clarification about what time period
25 we're talking about. I think it's a little confusing for the witness.
1 She's asking about his service during the early -- or late 1980s in the
2 JNA and then talking about the enemy. I'm not sure who she's referring
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, is that important? I think Ms. Sinatra just
5 asked a general question.
6 MS. SINATRA: Well, I will clarify. Only because --
7 Q. Sir, in the JNA, you were not involved in signals unit or
8 intelligence, were you?
9 A. I was a member of the signals unit, but I wasn't a member of an
10 intelligence unit.
11 Q. I'll move forward. But you know that with your experience as a
12 member of the signals unit that what you record and what you transcribe
13 not only includes information that may be true, it includes information
14 that may not be true also, doesn't it?
15 A. Whether they were correct or not correct, we would transcribe them
16 and pass them on. Our duty was to transcribe the conversation.
17 Q. Thank you. I want to refer you to a document that the Prosecution
18 has put in front of you. It was P226. I'm not going to take the Court's
19 time. I'm going to refresh your memory that it was a conversation which I
20 believe you recorded in your own handwriting at 9.05 on the 14th of July.
21 Do you remember seeing that document a few moments ago?
22 A. Yes, I do. I did see it.
23 Q. You testified earlier about the fact that dot, dot, dot, dots
24 means you couldn't hear the conversation. Right?
25 A. It depends where the dots were. If they were at the beginning of
1 the conversation, it would mean that we didn't catch the beginning. If
2 some word was inaudible or we couldn't hear very well, then we would put
3 the dots there. For example, if one participant was inaudible.
4 Q. Well, if the dots are in the middle of a conversation, it means
5 that you couldn't hear that conversation at that time. Right?
6 A. Whether we couldn't hear it or perhaps I didn't understand the
7 word, perhaps that could mean that as well.
8 Q. Let me just ask you, too: Generally, if you record a generic
9 statement from, say, Zivanovic, dot, dot, dot, dot, from the duty officer,
10 that duty officer could refer to any of 200 different duty officers on
11 duty on July 14th, 1995, couldn't it?
12 A. Duty officer, I wouldn't know where he was from. I am not
13 thinking or considering who the duty officer was. He's just the duty
14 officer. If I would have known who he was, I would have written it down.
15 Q. I also want to know about your shift changes. You said you worked
16 anywhere from seven- to 14-day shifts. Do you remember from refreshing
17 your memory with your log what day your shift change was at your location
18 in July?
19 A. My log? I didn't have any log.
20 Q. Do you remember what day you changed shifts and got to go home
21 from your location?
22 A. I can't remember that. There was a logbook before, but I didn't
23 have a logbook for that period.
24 Q. And you didn't maintain a maintenance record on the equipment
25 either, did you?
1 A. How do you mean, a maintenance record on the equipment?
2 Q. When it had been serviced, when it had been repaired.
3 A. No, we didn't conduct these repairs. If some equipment should
4 break down, we would send it out to be repaired or if it was possible to
5 perhaps fix it right there. If it was not possible to fix it right there,
6 we would send it out. There was a workshop for that or sometimes a
7 service person would come by.
8 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I would like to go to private session
9 for a second, please.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session, please.
11 [Private session]
12 Page 4066 – redacted – private session.
12 Page 4067 – redacted – private session.
11 [Open session]
12 MS. SINATRA:
13 Q. Thank you, sir, I really appreciate -- we all appreciate the fact
14 that you come here to the Tribunal to testify. The truth is that you do
15 not recognise the voice of Dragan Jokic, do you?
16 A. I cannot remember whether I knew him or not. I don't think that I
18 MS. SINATRA: We have no further questions, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
20 Any redirect, Ms. Davis?
21 MS. DAVIS: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this stage are there any documents to tender
23 into the evidence?
24 MS. DAVIS: Yes, Your Honour. There's just one document, and
25 that's P351, which is the pseudonym sheet, and that would be tendered
1 under seal. The intercept evidence that was discussed with this witness
2 will be the subject of a later motion.
3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
4 Any objections? Mr. Karnavas?
5 MR. KARNAVAS: None, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Sinatra?
7 MS. SINATRA: None, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, this piece of document is admitted into the
10 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give
11 your evidence. I think we have been assisted by your testimony. And I
12 apologise to keep you here for so long and we wish you a pleasant journey
13 back home.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE LIU: You may leave now. The usher will show you out of the
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, is there someone from the Prosecution team who
19 will brief us about the next witness? Yes? I mean, are there any
20 protective measures?
21 MR. VIADA: Yes, Your Honour. The next witness has demanded to
22 have voice distortion, face distortion, and also pseudonym.
23 JUDGE LIU: I see. Thank you very much. Since we need some
24 technical setup, so could we break now and we'll resume at 20 minutes to
1 --- Recess taken at 5.09 p.m.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 --- On resuming at 5.41 p.m.
4 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
6 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration, please.
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness.
8 JUDGE LIU: Well, we have some problem with the microphone.
9 Would you please say something to the microphone, Witness.
10 [Technical difficulty]
11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, would you please make the solemn
12 declaration, please.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: WITNESS P-120
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
18 Yes, Mr. Viada.
19 MR. VIADA: Good afternoon, Your Honour. Good afternoon, Your
20 Honours. Good afternoon, Defence counsels.
21 Examined by Mr. Viada:
22 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
23 First of all, I would like to request the usher's assistance in
24 order to provide you a particular exhibit in which you can find your name
25 written on it. I would like you to say if your name is, in fact, written
1 on this paper.
2 A. I see something that is very much like my name on this piece of
3 paper, however, it does contain certain errors.
4 Q. But there is another name on that paper?
5 JUDGE LIU: Shall we go to private session, please?
6 MR. VIADA: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
7 [Private session]
6 [Open session]
7 MR. VIADA:
8 Q. Witness, can you tell the Judges something about your educational
9 background briefly, please.
10 A. I completed a secondary school for engineers, a technical school,
11 and a high school for engineers. I am a technician. I am an engineer.
12 That's my education.
13 Q. What kind of engineer are you?
14 A. I'm a mining engineer and a mechanical engineer, too.
15 Q. Thank you very much. I would like to move quickly to the time of
16 your -- the time that you serviced in the army, the time of the war. When
17 did you join the army?
18 A. I joined the army in December 1992.
19 Q. What unit of the Bosnian army did you join at the time?
20 A. It was the 3rd Brigade of the 2nd Corps of the army of
22 Q. Did you remain in that unit since 1995?
23 A. I stayed with that unit until August 1994.
24 Q. And what happened in August 1994?
25 A. In August 1994, I received an order from the commander to be
1 transferred to a different unit.
2 Q. What was that unit?
3 A. That was the electronic surveillance and anti-electronic warfare
5 Q. Witness, were you given training prior to your operational service
6 in that unit?
7 A. From mid-September that year to mid-October that year, there was a
8 one-month course, training. We were trained to operate the equipment used
9 by this unit.
10 Q. Please, can you tell us which kind of training did you receive,
11 very briefly, please.
12 A. This training was basically an introduction to radio technology.
13 We were being trained to use the equipment. There were several subjects
14 being discussed that were indispensable for an operator. We needed to
15 know how to operate the equipment without damaging the equipment, and we
16 who attended the course were not specially trained people.
17 Q. Did you have any experience in radio communications before that
19 A. No.
20 Q. How long did you remain with the army?
21 A. I remained in the army from December 1992 to April 1996.
22 Q. With the help of Madam Usher, I would like to show the witness
23 Exhibit 318, please.
24 Could you point on that exhibit the location of the unit in which
25 you were working from August 1994.
1 A. The unit was at Okresanica.
2 Q. To who was your unit -- to whom was your unit directly
4 A. It was a unit of the 2nd Corps of the army of Bosnia and
6 Q. Please, could you tell the Judges very briefly, because the Judges
7 have heard from a number of witnesses on the same point, what was the
8 purpose of that unit.
9 A. Basically, the unit had two objectives. The only objective of the
10 unit was to protect the population and the military. This was done by
11 electronic surveillance, which in this case came down to listening in on
12 conversations being transmitted on enemy frequencies and interfering with
13 the enemy's communications which was less often the case. Usually there
14 were combat operations underway.
15 Q. How many people were in your unit in 1995?
16 A. I don't know how many people there were. I don't know how many
17 people were in the company, in the company for the -- for electronic
18 surveillance and anti-electronic warfare, but I can tell you how many
19 people there were in my own group. The number varied from 5 to 15,
20 depending on the situation we were facing.
21 Q. How did you organise the work in your platoon, in your unit, at
22 that moment?
23 A. My detachment was one of two of our platoon, the platoon that was
24 based at Okresanica. We had two detachments there. And those two took
25 turns in carrying out these tasks.
1 MR. VIADA: Your Honour, I'm asking to go into private session for
2 a couple of minutes, please.
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session, please.
4 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 MR. VIADA:
1 Q. Are you familiar with codes for coded language?
2 A. I must say I don't quite understand your question. Can you please
4 Q. Yes, of course. Are you familiar with coded languages, I mean
5 deciphering codes or coded languaging, communications, please?
6 A. If what you mean is code names denoting certain units of the
7 enemy, in that case, yes, I am familiar with those code names.
8 Q. And how did you --
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.
10 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. From the question I just would
11 like, for clarification purposes, coding is not the same as encryption,
12 which is another form of coding with the military. If we could just
13 delineate that with this witness.
14 JUDGE LIU: I think we have already come across this issue many
16 You may proceed, Mr. Viada.
17 MR. VIADA: Thanks, Mr. President.
18 Q. And please, can you tell the Judges how did you become familiar
19 with this code?
20 A. I became familiar with the codes, as all soldiers who monitored
21 those conversations. This was done on the basis of experience during our
22 monitoring of the conversations. We memorised certain participants in
23 certain locations as well as certain units.
24 Q. Okay. Can you tell Their Honours very shortly about the details
25 of the procedure that you followed when you were working in that unit in
2 A. Our unit monitored radio relay communications of the enemy. These
3 were used to transmit telephone conversations. We had in our possession
4 amateur equipment specially adapted or modified to catch those
5 conversations. So we continually monitored the activity on those
6 channels. Whenever there was a conversation that we caught and believed
7 was relevant, we recorded the conversation on a reel-to-reel recorder.
8 The next step would be to transcribe or write down the contents of the
9 conversation from the reel-to-reel recorder into a notebook. This
10 notebook contained the information that we had recorded on tape. The
11 notebook would then be passed on to the encryption section, the encryption
12 unit, who were, in their turn, in touch with the corps command. There was
13 a soldier in that unit who typed up the text or the message on to a
14 computer and sent it on to the command.
15 Q. Just only a couple of things about this procedure. How did you
16 decide which was an important or a relevant conversation that you have
17 heard in order to be recorded?
18 A. The relevance of a conversation could be determined in a number of
19 different ways. The equipment we used for the tapping had certain fixed
20 channels related to certain strategic positions, localities, of the enemy.
21 It was very important for us what was happening on those channels, those
22 specific channels. If, for example, we had four conversations going at
23 the same time, we were paying special attention to what was happening on
24 the first three channels, because that's where the enemy was sharing
25 information. But also, the other channels were important.
1 Q. Would you write down the conversations that you were intercepting
3 A. Any conversation occurring on such channels -- any conversation by
4 people whose voices we could identify or if there was anything else for us
5 to indicate that it was an important conversation, we would automatically
6 decide to record the conversation. We had no time to write it down. The
7 fundamental thing for us was to record it and then perhaps to transcribe
8 it and eventually send it on to the command.
9 Q. Just in the process of transcribing the conversations that you
10 first had intercepted, did you transcribe these conversations usually
12 A. The command ordered us clearly to insist on the accuracy of the
13 information that we were passing on. The established practice was that
14 the soldier who first caught the conversation then copied the conversation
15 literally into a notebook.
16 Q. Then would you hear a conversation more than one time, if
17 necessary, before writing it down?
18 A. We faced a number of different situations, depending on the
19 quality of reception, depending on the pronunciation of the participants
20 involved. Sometimes it was possible to transcribe a conversation after
21 listening to it once or twice, but sometimes this took hours and we needed
22 help from our colleagues in order to be able to understand clearly what
23 the participants were saying.
24 Q. Was part of your duties to check the conversation typed down by
25 the soldier, so as to verify the accuracy of the transcription?
1 A. The army evolved. There were two different kinds of approach
2 depending on the exact period of this evolution. At one point in time,
3 they asked to run checks and to verify information. However, we were
4 often short of men and sort of time to do all these things.
5 Q. Then you wouldn't do this frequently or sometimes or never? Which
6 is your answer of this?
7 A. Generally speaking, all the soldiers were trusted and everyone was
8 responsible for their work. Sometimes verification would only mean
9 checking the orthography, so in answer to your question I can say that I
10 didn't do this very often.
11 Q. Thank you, sir. Was it part of your job to analyse the
12 conversations that you were listening to?
13 A. In principle, our job would be finished as soon as we forwarded a
14 conversation to the soldier who was in charge of typing it up on to a
15 computer and sending it on to the command. Then there were other people
16 with the command who analysed the conversations.
17 Q. I would like to make the last question about the procedure. What
18 would you do with the tapes used? Did you re-use the tapes?
19 A. At one point in time, we passed the tapes on to the command. This
20 usually took a while. However, as time went by sometimes there were tapes
21 that we ended up not forwarding. To all practical intents, the reason was
22 that there weren't enough tapes. So we had to use the same tapes twice to
23 record the conversation and to then transcribe the conversation into the
25 Q. Thank you, sir. If we can right now go to another subject, which
1 is the notebooks that you wrote down while you were working in that unit.
2 First of all, I would like the witness to be shown the notebook the
3 Exhibit 322, please, with the help of Madam Usher.
4 In the page numbered 00778845, can you recognise that page your
6 A. Yes, there is a text on this page that I wrote.
7 Q. Is this a conversation that was intercepted by you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Which are the time in which that conversation took place?
10 A. Each conversation that was recorded in the notebook had to have
11 the time when the conversation took place and the channel and the
12 frequency where the conversation was intercepted. So this particular
13 conversation was intercepted at 1658 hours. So it began at 1658 hours.
14 Q. Thank you. In the same notebook, which the name 00778906, do you
15 recognise your handwriting in that page?
16 A. There is a part of the text on this page which was written by my
17 hand. It's a text that began at 0834 hours.
18 Q. And this text continues in the next pages or not?
19 A. On the next page is another conversation.
20 Q. And then when you say this page 906 -- ending 906, the number, you
21 see part of a conversation, a whole conversation, or it is the beginning
22 or the end of a conversation?
23 A. On this page with the conversation of 0834 hours, it's an entire
24 conversation. It was supposed to be a contact that was supposed to be
25 established between two friendly units.
1 Q. Thank you, sir.
2 If the witness could be shown another exhibit, in particular the
3 Exhibit 345.
4 The page 01077809, can you recognise your handwriting?
5 A. Yes. The text on this page is a text that I wrote down.
6 Q. What time --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please.
8 MR. VIADA: Excuse me.
9 Q. What time do you see in that conversation, the conversation to
10 have taken place?
11 A. This conversation started at 2227 hours.
12 Q. I would like you to go --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
14 MR. VIADA: Excuse me.
15 Q. I would like you to go to the second page of the notebook, which
16 is evidence unit number 1 -- 0107770. Can you see a date in that page?
17 A. Yes, I do see a date on this page.
18 Q. What does this date mean?
19 A. This date means that starting from this day, the book was made
20 available for the recording, the writing, of these reports or the
21 materials that were transcribed from the tape recorder.
22 Q. What is the date that you see on that page?
23 A. On this page, the date is the 12th of July, 1995.
24 Q. Today in my office, you have had the opportunity to go through
25 this particular notebook. I'm going to ask you: According with the
1 procedure that you used to fill the notebook, can you determine the date
2 of the particular conversation that you intercepted at 2227 hours? I mean
3 the one that you recognised before.
4 A. The day when the message -- the conversation was intercepted can
5 be determined in principle starting from this date and from the time when
6 the first conversation was transcribed. All the conversations have the
7 time when they were intercepted, when they began, and this time gives the
8 possibility for the reports to be separated into the days on which they
9 were made.
10 Q. And so, can you be precise and tell the Judges when that
11 particular conversation that you were shown before was intercepted.
12 A. In order to tell you this information, I have to look at all the
13 conversations according to their times, and based on that we can note --
14 so if we have the first conversation in this notebook was registered at
15 2115 hours, it means that on that day we began to use the book and the
16 first date in that case is the 12th of July. The next day, the 13th of
17 July, the first recorded conversation was taken in 0805 hours, this is for
18 the 13th of July -- the 13th of July ends with a conversation at 2153
19 hours. The next conversation for the 14th of July began at 0704 hours.
20 So the conversation at 2227 hours took place on the 14th of July.
21 Q. Right. Now, I'm going to direct your attention to Prosecution
22 Exhibit 233/F. And the translation which is 233/A, I believe. 233/F. I
23 would request not to put this on the record, because it has the name of
24 the witness on it.
25 Is that document, the conversation -- is this document familiar to
1 you? Have you seen this document or this kind of document before?
2 A. This document is a document that was transferred into the
3 computer. It was copied from the notebook that I was looking at just a
4 little while earlier. The time, 2227 hours, channel 3. So this is a
5 conversation from that time.
6 Q. Are you familiar with this format? I mean, you have seen these
7 kinds of documents -- with the indepedence of this particular document,
8 are you familiar with the format of this document?
9 A. I had the rare opportunity to see some documents which had been
10 typed into our computer at Okresanica, and I believe that this is a
11 document from that computer, since the document also contains numbers
12 below the text which I gave and said that they should be entered below the
14 Q. Thank you very much. If you can right now be shown Exhibit 231/E.
15 Can you see the date in the top of this document?
16 A. Yes, I see a date at the top.
17 Q. Which is that date?
18 A. It's the 14th of July, 1995.
19 Q. If the witness could be shown again the former exhibit at the same
20 time with this document, please.
21 In all these documents, I mean Exhibit 231/E and Exhibit 233/F, do
22 you think there is a kind of continuance? I mean, is the same document
23 with several pages according to the things that you are having the
24 opportunity to read?
25 A. If you mean to compare the two documents which I have on the desk,
1 so the document which was recorded on channel 5 with a heading of the
2 military and the document recorded from channel 3 with no heading at all,
3 I believe that these two documents are two different documents.
4 Q. But do you think are both documents part of the same bunch of
5 documents or not?
6 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm going to object.
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: I hate to interrupt the flow, but I will object. I
9 believe the gentleman indicated they are from two different sources. Now,
10 if he wishes to say whether he believes it's part of the same
11 conversation, and maybe that's what the gentleman wished to get out, the
12 Prosecutor, that is. That may be an appropriate question, but I think the
13 witness indicated that they're from two different sources.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
15 Yes, Mr. Viada, I think you could ask some questions along the
16 line the witness answered.
17 MR. VIADA: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm going to withdraw this
18 question. Thank you very much.
19 Q. Turning to the text of this particular intercept, in this
20 particular intercept, you -- I mean the intercept which starts out 2227
21 hours you wrote down "Jokic duty officer from Palma." Is that correct?
22 A. That's correct.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please Sinatra.
24 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I'm going to have to object
25 to the leading form of the question,. He can ask him what he wrote down
1 but he can't put the words in the witness's mouth.
2 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think everybody has that document in front of
3 us. I think your client's name was there, so I don't think there's a big
4 problem for that.
5 But, Mr. Viada, you could ask the witness who wrote down this name
6 and how did he know it is that person.
7 MR. VIADA: Thanks, Mr. President.
8 Q. Can you recall what Palma was code of?
9 A. Palma was the code name for the Zvornik Brigade.
10 Q. Thank you very much. Right now if the witness could be shown
11 again Exhibit 345, which is the notebook.
12 Can you see at page 01077809, please.
13 A. I see the same conversation as before of 2227.
14 Q. Thank you. If the witness could be shown right now another
15 notebook, notebook 91, please, Exhibit 333.
16 Can you look at the page which ends in 0633, please. Do you
17 recognise your handwriting on that page?
18 A. Yes, that's my handwriting.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I --
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
21 MR. KARNAVAS: We got the answer, but if the gentleman could be
22 cautioned if he recognises the handwriting as opposed does he recognise
23 his handwriting. It's a slight technicality, but I think it might get
24 more complicated as we go along.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. It's a right point.
1 And, Mr. Viada, you may ask whose handwriting is this? And then
2 it depends on the witness's answers.
3 MR. VIADA: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Whose handwriting is this, Witness?
5 A. This is my handwriting.
6 Q. Thank you. In the same notebook, can we turn to page 00800632,
7 please. Whose handwriting is it?
8 A. This page also contains my handwriting.
9 Q. Thank you very much. In the same notebook, please, the number of
10 the page ending 652. Can you tell the Judges whose handwriting is this.
11 A. This is also my handwriting.
12 Q. Thank you very much. If we can turn, with the help of the usher,
13 to the last notebook, which is Exhibit 330. Can the witness be shown page
14 753, please.
15 Whose handwriting is this?
16 A. This is my handwriting.
17 Q. Thank you very much.
18 MR. VIADA: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Viada, you showed a notebook, but you have
20 to tell us where is the corresponding transcripts, you know, for this
21 intercept, otherwise we'll get lost.
22 MR. VIADA: Okay. If -- can I help to read for the record all the
23 transcripts which pertains to these particular notebooks?
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, you may tell us.
25 MR. VIADA: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour. Just for the record
1 only to mention that notebook 1 is the Exhibit 171/C. Notebook -- Exhibit
2 345 is Exhibit 233/D, which is notebook 232. Again, notebook 232, Exhibit
3 255/F. Notebook -- no, Exhibit 235/4 which is notebook 232 is Exhibit
4 255/F --
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.
6 MS. SINATRA: I'm sorry. There is no notebook 232, and I want to
7 make sure Exhibit P232 doesn't get confused with what he says is notebook
8 232. It's line 32 in the transcript, and it's confusing.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, thank you. We have the same problem.
10 MR. VIADA: Mr. President, if we could provide a complete note
11 could be some kind of help to the Court with all the dates of the
12 reference of these particular notebooks and pages.
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, the problem is that, you know, in the transcript
14 we have to understand which is corresponding to which one, you know, so
15 that we could have a complete record so everybody will know what you are
16 talking about.
17 MR. VIADA: You are right, Your Honour. Let me check them more
18 carefully. May I ask for 2 minutes in order to be more accurate?
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
20 MR. VIADA: Thank you very much.
21 [Prosecution counsel confers]
22 MR. VIADA: Your Honour, may I continue?
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
24 MR. VIADA: Notebook -- Exhibit 171, corresponding Exhibit 322.
25 Exhibit 233, corresponding Exhibit 345. Exhibit 237, corresponding
1 Exhibit 322. Exhibit 255, corresponding Exhibit 345. Exhibit 257,
2 corresponding Exhibit 333. Exhibit 258, corresponding Exhibit 333.
3 Exhibit 285, corresponding Exhibit 91. Exhibit 289, corresponding Exhibit
4 339. Exhibit 291, corresponding Exhibit 345. And Exhibit 309 is
5 corresponding with Exhibit 330.
6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I hope everybody gets it.
7 MR. VIADA: Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE LIU: But, Mr. Viada, to facilitate the work, what if you
9 submit a list tomorrow.
10 MR. VIADA: Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
12 Any cross-examination? Mr. Karnavas?
13 MR. KARNAVAS: I do, Your Honour. I may need a moment, given the
14 last moment we had. Just one moment, Your Honour.
15 [Defence counsel confers]
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:
17 Q. Good evening, sir?
18 A. Good evening to you, sir.
19 Q. Now, I just have a few questions and as I understand it you came
20 by this position, the one that we've been discussing, I take it as a
21 result of your education; in other words, that they selected you back in
22 1994 and they trained you to be in this particular position as an
23 intercept operator. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. All right. You were fairly well educated and though you didn't
1 any particular background in radio communications, they nonetheless felt
2 that because of your level of education that you would adopt to this
3 position. Correct?
4 A. This was an assessment of the command, not my own.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Viada.
13 MR. VIADA: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt, but if we can go
14 into private session it would be a good idea at this moment.
15 JUDGE LIU: Do you need that, Mr. Karnavas?
16 MR. KARNAVAS: I think I understand the gentleman's concern.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session.
18 [Private session]
12 Page 4090 – redacted – private session.
12 Page 4091 – redacted – private session.
12 Page 4092 – redacted – private session.
9 [Open session]
10 MR. KARNAVAS: I believe we just furnished Madam Usher with
11 those -- with copies of D75/1 and D76/1. And while the papers are being
12 distributed --
13 Q. Sir, if you could just look at the handwritten version that is
14 found in what is marked as P255/E and look at the typewritten version in
15 what is marked as P255/D, and please tell me if they correspond.
16 A. If I understand this, you want me to compare the handwritten text
17 in the upper left corner of the page to the text in capital letters
18 written out as a report to the right?
19 Q. Yes. I want to make sure that you can compare the two, look at
20 them, compare them, to see whether we're talking about the same intercept,
21 one being handwritten, the other one having been typed out, which I assume
22 was encrypted and then sent off later on.
23 A. What I can tell you is that the handwritten conversation encircled
24 in the upper left portion of the page is part of a conversation that was
25 typed up on the right-hand side.
1 Q. All right. Well, to make sure that you're looking at the right
2 part, if you flip -- if you would in the handwritten version, if you would
3 turn to the second page and look at the top left-hand corner, and I
4 believe it's -- it has 01077831. And you will see that it is marked out,
5 highlighted, blocked out, call it whatever you wish, it's on the left side
6 of that notebook.
7 A. So you mean the document -- oh, right. I don't understand this.
8 Can you please repeat.
9 Q. Okay. This -- the page that I'm asking you to look at which is
10 marked for identification purposes as 255/1F, which apparently is from the
11 notebook 345, your notebook, the one that you identified, on that
12 particular page there seems to be a blocked out portion which describes
13 the channel, the hours as 1847, and the individuals that seem to be having
14 a discussion.
15 I then asked you to look at a typewritten version which is marked
16 as P255/D in the middle of the page, and it would seem that perhaps the --
17 it is a typewritten version of the handwritten version. And I'm asking
18 you to look at them and to tell me whether I'm correct.
19 A. Yes, you're correct. These two texts that were marked off, one
20 handwritten and the other typed up on a computer.
21 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, if you look at the handwritten
22 version, one would assume, given the procedure or the practice that was in
23 place, the handwritten version would have come first and then the
24 typewritten version. Is that correct?
25 A. Well, again I must say these two conversations that are marked
1 out, the first one is a handwritten version and the other one is typed up
2 on channel 5 where the exact time given here. These are two different
3 conversations, if that's what you have in mind.
4 Q. Well, are you suggesting that -- are you suggesting that the
5 typewritten version comes from some place other than the handwritten
6 version? In other words, that some other unit did the same thing, or is
7 the typewritten version generated as a result of the handwritten version,
8 which is found in the notebook which you've identified as being a notebook
9 that was generated and completed while you were the commander of that
10 particular unit?
11 A. In answer to your question, I can only say what I know for
12 certain. I know that I was the one who wrote this text. As for what
13 happened later and who did what with this text, I really can't say.
14 Q. All right. Now, the text that you wrote, is that a verbatim
15 conversation that you monitored as the procedure or the practice that was
16 set out pursuant to the orders that you had received, or does it appear to
17 be a summary of a conversation?
18 A. When we talk about the presentation of intercepts, at stage 1 we
19 have information concerning the time and place as well as the
20 participants. Those are three different times. We have two comments. If
21 we stick blindly to the logic that we should transcribe everything we
22 hear, we should have several million people on the job. If, on the other
23 hand, there is anything that would indicate any information of relevance
24 without containing anything else, then this would be within our remit.
25 Q. Sir, you would agree with me, would you not, that what I am
1 showing you right now is quite contrary to what you represented earlier,
2 both on direct and on cross-examination, when you said that you would --
3 you and your colleagues would faithfully write down verbatim what was
4 heard, because those were the orders, the orders which you had indicated
5 were to follow and I take it you were instructing your subordinates to
6 follow. Isn't that a fact?
7 A. Well, in order to give an order and to make it executive, the side
8 observing a problem, considering a problem, must be familiar with the
9 technical possibilities and the area in which the information occurs. If
10 you say that a million citizens are being tapped, that their phones are
11 being tapped, on a daily basis, then the reverse of that is how many
12 citizens does it take to tap into the conversations of a million different
13 citizens. If you give an order to someone to take down whatever they
14 heard in a given conversation, every single thing they heard, then
15 certainly the least that would be required for that is several million
16 people on the job just for the transcription itself.
17 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, we have 10 minutes past the
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Yeah, and I'm afraid, Your Honour, in light of -- I
20 had hopped to do a quite short cross-examination, but I'm afraid I'm not
21 going to be able to finish as quickly. I thought it was only going to be
22 a 5-minute or a 10-minute cross, but now I'm compelled to do a rather more
23 aggressive cross-examination in this case.
24 JUDGE LIU: Well, save it for tomorrow afternoon.
25 Well, Witness, as I did with all the other witnesses, I have to
1 tell you that you are under the oath, so do not tell anybody about your
2 testimony and do not let anybody talk to you about your testimony. Do you
3 understand that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE LIU: And I'm very grateful to the interpreters and the
6 technicians behind this courtroom for their indulgence to let us stay in
7 this courtroom for 10 minutes more.
8 And we'll resume tomorrow afternoon. The hearing is adjourned.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
10 at 7.11 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,
11 the 7th day of November, 2003, at 2.15 p.m.