Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6018

1 Wednesday, 17 December 2003

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

10 I'm sorry for the delay because I got confused with the courtroom.

11 Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

12 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I'm sorry but I did forget to

13 tender offer under evidence yesterday D61/3, which was the audiotape which

14 was played in the courtroom. If it's not too late since there are no

15 objections from the Prosecution, may I tender that exhibit for the Defence

16 into evidence?

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think at this stage I'll bear your request in

18 mind, and we'll continue with the cross-examination of this witness.

19 After this witness leaves the courtroom, we'll deal with it. It might

20 need some discussion on that.

21 MS. SINATRA: Thank you very much, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

23 Mr. Karnavas, are you ready to continue your cross-examination?

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Mr. President. Good afternoon, good

25 afternoon, Your Honour.

Page 6019


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas [Continued]

4 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. I want to pick up where we left off yesterday. Now, since last --

7 now, since yesterday did you have an opportunity to go over your statement

8 again last night after you left?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So I take it you read it again?

11 A. Yes. And because -- I actually read it several times. And I was

12 trying to remember details and everything. And I had problems because of

13 your questioning and because of my memory, I tried to recall everything.

14 But really --

15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness come closer to the microphone,

16 please.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues] ...

18 Completely, you, yourself. And I came to the conclusion, and I apologise

19 to everybody, to you, to the Presiding Judge, and to the Prosecutor,

20 really. I cannot remember all the details, and I would not like to lay

21 the blame on somebody. And I wouldn't like to do that because of me,

22 through my own fault. Because really, I cannot remember the particulars,

23 the details. I really couldn't tell you that, because it's been a long

24 time since then.


Page 6020

1 Q. All right. Now, I take it that when you were in Banja Luka you

2 had the same problem as well?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Though, in Banja Luka at times when you were answering questions,

5 I take it, sometimes you were not quite sure whether you were being

6 accurate or not?

7 A. I told the investigative Judges also at the time. I really

8 cannot -- you've read it, everybody's read it. I wasn't really able to

9 recall the details, the precise details, how many people entered the bus

10 or how many people left the bus, because really, I am not able to remember

11 everything. Everything that I said and everything that I signed, I

12 understand that I can be punished for all of that and I'm not trying to

13 escape that. But really, last night -- even up to 5.00 this morning, I

14 was leafing through it all. And perhaps I made a mistake with regard to

15 certain people. Perhaps, I don't know, Mr. Blagojevic knew that I wasn't

16 able -- that I couldn't be an officer on duty. I was possibly just able

17 to check the civilian people entering the command or something like that.

18 And I wasn't able to get in touch with anybody. And perhaps I made a

19 mistake with regard to this Jovanovic. I don't know.

20 Q. Let me interrupt you here for a second. First of all, let me just

21 say that we want -- we would like you to be as accurate as you can, every

22 one of us here. Secondly, you're not going to be punished -- or, you

23 know, if you were confused or if you were mistaken. All right.

24 Now, before I start my questioning, I just wanted to point out on

25 the first page you indicate - and I read from page 1, line 18 to 19 in the

Page 6021

1 English version - you say: "As I explained to you when I show you last

2 time, you know, I worked as a driver just to provide to my family."

3 Do you recall reading that? It's on the first page of the

4 statement.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Now, my question is: Did you meet with the Office of the

7 Prosecution before on another occasion, or was this the very first time

8 you met with them in Banja Luka?

9 A. On the 13th of October, that is the first time. And I think

10 that's when Mr. Bursik was there and Peter -- this gentleman right here.

11 I don't know. He was there. I also came the first time, but there was a

12 mistake in the translation of the summons because I -- in the version --

13 in the Serbian language, in the Serbo-Croatian language it said the 23rd

14 of October, that's what the summons said. But in the English language

15 version, it was the 13th of October. So I came because the summons in the

16 Serbo-Croatian language was signed by -- at the ministry in Banja Luka

17 that was in charge of all of that.

18 Q. My question is: Were you questioned once or were you questioned

19 more than one time?

20 A. Just once.

21 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, I'm going to need shorter answers, if

22 possible. I'm going to try to ask very direct questions so we can get you

23 back home?

24 A. Okay. No problem.

25 Q. Now, do you know Mr. Mirko Jankovic?

Page 6022

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, did you know him -- do you know him well?

3 A. I got to know him better only after 1994 when I became a member of

4 the military police. Before that, I just knew him by sight because he

5 worked in Tuzla as a driver in Trans Service. That was the company in

6 Tuzla. That was the name of it at the time. Now it's called Trans Tuzla.

7 But before that until September, we didn't have any contacts. We didn't

8 really socialise. Only when I got to the military police, then we

9 officially met one another and so on.

10 Q. All right. And did you have a good working relationship with him?

11 A. We had business relations. The things that I had to do, the

12 things that Jankovic and Jovanovic and the Bratunac security officer,

13 Mr. Nikolic, that's the things that they told me to do, I would carry them

14 out. Before that, I was at the checkpoint towards the border with Serbia.

15 Q. All right. I don't want to interrupt you, but are you telling us

16 that you had a good working relationship, a professional relationship,

17 with him?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, did you know a Mile Petrovic?

20 A. He was also a member of the military police.

21 Q. Were you aware that at the time back in July - 11th, 12th and so

22 on, of 1995 - Mile Petrovic was actually the deputy commander? Were you

23 aware of that?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So as you sit here today, you're still under the impression that

Page 6023

1 Jovanovic was the commander and Jankovic was the deputy commander?

2 A. When I came to the military police in September, then I was told

3 that Jankovic was -- that's when I met Jankovic -- actually Jovanovic,

4 that they were the commander and the deputy commander. And afterwards,

5 what the structural changes were in the command or by their duties, I

6 really don't know. I didn't have the right to know who appointed whom or

7 anything like that. And like I said yesterday, I --

8 Q. Mr. Zaric, we're talking about the commander of the military

9 police and the deputy commander. So if the commander --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- wasn't around, you would be receiving your orders from the

12 deputy commander; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. So if Mile Petrovic was the deputy commander, you might

15 have received some orders from him? Is that possible or is it your

16 recollection that you never received any orders from him, which may be a

17 possibility as well?

18 A. The premises of the military police were the place where most of

19 us actually spent time. There was some people who were older than myself.

20 They were between 35 and 40 years old at the time. So if Jovanovic or

21 Jankovic weren't there -- one of them was usually with us, either

22 Jovanovic. But if none of them were there, then they always said to one

23 of the older people to be the person in charge, to be on duty in case

24 people needed to be brought in, like the conscripts who would just leave

25 the lines without permission and so on.

Page 6024

1 Q. Mr. Zaric, we're going to focus now on the period of around July

2 11th to the 16th, 17th, during that period of time, okay, 1995. This is

3 right around the fall of Srebrenica. Okay?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. Now, I take it from listening to your answers, as you

6 stand here today you're not sure who was your deputy commander during that

7 period?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. Now, in your statement you indicated when you were

10 asked about who told you to go to Potocari, you indicated - and I'm

11 quoting from, it's in the English version, page 6, line 17 - you think --

12 "I think that Mirko Jankovic approached me."

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Now, do you recall whether or not he, in fact, approached

15 you or were you just saying that in Banja Luka because that's -- you

16 assumed that that's what happened?

17 A. Well, there are a couple of us sitting there and he said, You have

18 to go up there. We assumed because there were these families who were

19 victims for -- during Christmas 1995 -- 1993. Then there were about 50

20 families at Zalas [phoen] also who were victims for St. Peter's Day. They

21 perished in 1992. So this is what we were most afraid of at that point in

22 time. So we were really trying to try to protect --

23 Q. Mr. Zaric, I'm going to ask you to please listen to the questions

24 and just answer the questions, okay, not what's in the statement. My

25 question to you is: Did Mirko Jankovic, in fact --

Page 6025

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- in fact approach you or was that an assumption you were making

3 in Banja Luka at the time that you were giving your statement? Which of

4 the two? And if you're not sure, just say I'm not sure. That's another

5 possibility.

6 A. Well, I do not want to say anything bad or to liable anybody with

7 the things that I say, but I don't know. This is what I said, so I cannot

8 go back on what I said. But as far as I can see, I think that he did come

9 up to me.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. So again, I cannot ...

12 Q. All right. Now -- and according to you, you were at the police

13 station -- at the military police compound when he came up to you? That's

14 your testimony?

15 A. Yes.

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6026

1 A. Again, you were here when they played the tape yesterday. I went

2 to Potocari of my own free will. There are some others there --

3 Q. I understand that --

4 A. My colleagues who were also members of the military police at the

5 time, together with me. But according to that statement and to my

6 statement, it seems that I went just of my own volition, that -- and all

7 the others, that they went there just like that.

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 Q. Were you one of them?

17 A. Yes, I was at the beginning. Later, they returned -- they told me

18 to leave. And that's when I was next -- I went to be by the buses.

19 Q. Okay. So initially you were sent to Potocari along with other

20 members of the Bratunac Brigade military police to provide security for

21 General Mladic?

22 A. When I was security for General Mladic, that was only in front of

23 the Hotel Fontana, where he was having, I think, talks with the commander

24 of the Dutch Battalion that was in Srebrenica. There I was securing the

25 hotel, and after that - as I said a moment ago - six or seven of us sat in

Page 6027

1 a military vehicle and we went in the direction of Potocari. And then I

2 followed them up there to the security point to secure the convoys, the

3 boarding of the buses, and all that.

4 Q. I'm trying to get a clear answer from you, Mr. Zaric. Were you

5 selected, were you selected, to provide security for General Mladic, yes

6 or no?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Okay. Did -- is it possible that Mr. Jovanovic sent you there,

9 since you think he was still over there?

10 A. As I said a while ago, at the beginning before I started making

11 the statement, really after this night that I didn't sleep at all, I tried

12 hard to recall whether he was or not -- and I'm not sure and I cannot

13 claim with certainty whether he was or not. In fact, I am self-conscious,

14 actually. I'm having a hard time. I don't want to incriminate anybody by

15 my statement. I don't want anyone to have consequences on that account.

16 As I say, I read everything about the Tribunal and what awaits me from the

17 Tribunal if I make a wrong statement and I'm clear on that. But I really

18 would not like to burden anyone by any statement of mine. Because ...

19 Q. Mr. Zaric, when you were meeting with the Prosecution in

20 Banja Luka, did they question you first or did they show you the video

21 first and then ask you questions or was it during the interviewing

22 process? Which of the three?

23 A. They started showing it during the talk, the interview.

24 Q. Okay. All right.

25 A. First, first I started with this, that you have at the beginning.

Page 6028

1 And then they started showing what have you -- the actual date when the

2 footage started running, the time, and things like that.

3 Q. And that's when you saw yourself?

4 A. That's right.

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 So my question again is: Is it possible, sir, that you were there

17 to provide security for General Mladic; and once you got there, you were

18 tasked by someone to go to the bus, where you were located on the video?

19 A. Perhaps. I cannot recall with precision because I didn't go with

20 that group in the vehicle. I only went up there later because I think

21 that it was a Pitzgauer military vehicle, so some six or seven of them

22 went on it. And I was driven up there subsequently. And when I got up

23 there, they told me, You are to secure the command -- nobody told me,

24 nobody told me that you are going to secure the commander of the Army of

25 Republika Srpska, General Mladic, but they just told me you have to go

Page 6029

1 there as secure. So another four or five men came with me. I cannot

2 recall all the names. When we got there, this man - I believe it is the

3 one -- the guy who is standing by me on the videoclip. He told me, you

4 stand here by me and we'll let these people through to go to the bus.

5 This is the order that I got from him. And from whom he got that order, I

6 don't know. And then I went back to Potocari later. As I said, I was

7 just securing the area in front of the Fontana.

8 Q. Okay. We're going to go step by step. So if I understand you

9 correctly, you were never directly sent to Potocari to provide security

10 for the Muslim refugees; correct?

11 A. They just told me, Go up there to secure the area.

12 Q. And once you got there, someone told you to stand by the bus?

13 A. This colleague who was with me, he told me. He was on the

14 photograph, on the footage with me, because he happened to be there near

15 the bus.

16 Q. Now, when you say "colleague," is he someone from the

17 Bratunac Brigade military police or is he just a colleague because he's a

18 VRS soldier?

19 A. Well, this guy who is in the photograph with me who was shown

20 yesterday standing by me, next to the bus.

21 Q. Well, who --

22 A. We were some sort of friends, let me not go into that, to

23 explain --

24 Q. Okay. But my question is very direct. Is he another member of

25 the Bratunac Brigade military police? Is he from the Bratunac Brigade?

Page 6030

1 Or is he from some other unit that you don't know? Those are the three

2 choices.

3 A. He is from the Bratunac Brigade.

4 Q. Okay. All right. Now, did he tell you where he got his orders

5 from?

6 A. No.

7 Q. And you did not -- so it wasn't Mirko Jankovic giving you any

8 orders to go by the buses; correct?

9 A. It wasn't.

10 Q. And you certainly didn't see your commander, Colonel Blagojevic,

11 there that day?

12 A. Yesterday I said that it was only after all this, it was the 14th

13 or the 15th in the evening, that I learned that Mr. Blagojevic was the

14 commander of the Bratunac Brigade, because -- well, I know, I know,

15 Mr. Blagojevic from the time I was a child. And we come from the same

16 place.

17 Q. My question is, sir: You did not see him there, and that's what

18 you told to the folks in Banja Luka; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right.

21 A. But I didn't see him at Potocari.

22 Q. Right. That's what -- we're talking about Potocari now. Now, you

23 indicated that you saw some other members -- well, staying with the

24 military police, during your interview you said that -- you were asked --

25 and this is at the bottom of page 6, line 25: "And when you were deployed

Page 6031

1 to the enclave, who was deployed with you?"

2 And your answer was, page 7, line 1 in the English version: "So

3 all of us, everybody in the military police. I think about 20 of us,

4 well, were all deployed in that area."

5 And then you're asked: "And was there -- were you all summoned to

6 one central point before being deployed and given briefing?"

7 And the answer is: "No."

8 Mr. Zaric, are you certain about this aspect of your statement,

9 that about 20 of you were sent to Potocari on that particular day, keeping

10 in mind that Bratunac had approximately 30 military police officers at any

11 given time?

12 A. Well, I said about 20, and earlier there were six or seven. I

13 cannot say exactly how many there were who were escorting General Mladic.

14 After us, some four or five or so arrived. I cannot say exactly how many.

15 So I said that there were some 20-odd. Whether it was exactly 20 or less,

16 I can't say. I don't even know how many of us there were on the military

17 police force there.

18 Q. Okay. So am I correct in concluding that when you said: "I think

19 about 20 of us," you were just guessing?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So it could be fewer than ten?

22 A. There could have been.

23 Q. There could have been as few as five or six, the ones that you

24 saw?

25 A. Well maybe, because I don't know where those who were escorting

Page 6032

1 General Mladic were at the time.

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 Q. All right. Now, when you got to Potocari on that day, you also

22 noticed - as you did on the film - that there were other soldiers from

23 some battalions of the Bratunac Brigade; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And I take it, because they were there on the video standing there

Page 6033

1 on the side of the road, as we saw them, you assumed that they had been

2 ordered to be there; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And that they were ordered to be there in order to guard the

5 Muslim population that was there; correct?

6 A. We had no contact at all with them. They were not members of the

7 military police. They were under the battalion command. Now, whether

8 they were from the 1st or the 2nd or the 3rd Battalion, I didn't know

9 that. Some of those whom I saw on the footage I recognised and I said who

10 they were, because I had been with them, as they say, until yesterday.

11 Before I joined the military police, I was on the same line with them up

12 to that point. And perhaps had I remained in the battalion that they were

13 members of, I would have perhaps been standing by the road just like them,

14 had I not joined the military police.

15 Q. All right. But my question, sir, is -- well, let's go step by

16 step. When you were in Potocari on the 12th, you never went up there to

17 them or to speak to your fellow soldiers; correct?

18 A. I cannot remember now whether I did go or not. If I did approach

19 someone, it was just to say hello or something like that but not really to

20 talk about what they were doing or how they were doing it. I cannot say

21 exactly whether I did or not. I don't remember.

22 Q. Well, you didn't see that in your statement anywhere, did you,

23 when you were reading your statement, that you had actually gone and met

24 with your fellow soldiers and had any discussions with them? It's not in

25 your statement, is it?

Page 6034

1 A. As far as I remember, it is said at a certain point in the

2 statement -- it is written that that morning or the next day, I cannot the

3 date until I have a look at it, they were securing the area around because

4 in the SFOR base --

5 Q. We're going to get to that.


7 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if the witness could just finish his

8 sentence he was about to finish.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: That's okay, Your Honour. I'm trying to speed

10 things up, but we have all day tomorrow as well as I understand it.

11 Q. Go on and finish your sentence.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, you may finish your sentence.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. McCloskey can object as well, Your Honour. I

14 have no objections to both of them objecting or the gentleman from the

15 back.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe, as I said a while ago, I may

17 have got in touch with - and I don't know what the exact date is until I

18 leaf through this - those people who were securing behind the base, SFOR,

19 and behind the Dutch base there, that is the only time I established

20 contact with them, some of them were familiar. Otherwise, with the other

21 ones I didn't like to get in touch, in fact, nor did I. And to this day,

22 as they say, I -- apart from the fact that I've come here to testify, I

23 don't like to talk about it at all.


25 Q. Okay. Well, we need to talk about the details. Now, in your

Page 6035

1 statement there's nowhere where you state that you went and you spoke to

2 these soldiers and that you learned what, if any, assignments they had in

3 Potocari on the 12th; isn't that correct?

4 A. No.

5 Q. It's not correct? In your statement, when in Banja Luka, you

6 never told the officers there, the investigators, that you had spoken to

7 any of those soldiers; correct?

8 A. As I said a while ago, I may have stated that I talked, but I

9 don't know what the date was exactly until I leaf through it to see. But

10 as far as I can recall, I did not talk to anyone on the 12th. It may have

11 been the 13th or the 14th, I really don't know. But I think, as far as I

12 can recall, on the 12th I didn't talk to anyone there. I may have

13 approached a person or two, you know, to light my cigarette or something

14 like that, but I didn't talk to anyone.

15 Q. You were asked on page 8, and I'm reading from line 9, that's in

16 the English version: "Who else was there when you arrived?"

17 And your answer is: "I cannot tell you exactly which units were

18 there. They all had camouflage uniforms on, so I was not able because we

19 were all -- we all wore the same camouflage uniforms and they had no

20 signs. So I was not able to determine whether someone was police or some

21 special unit or something." That would be on page 8, line 10 in the

22 Srpski version.

23 You're then asked, if you could -- it's page 8, line 10, that's

24 what I read.

25 A. Yes.

Page 6036

1 Q. Okay. Now, I take it, had you gone up to some of those soldiers

2 and had a conversation with them, you might have asked them from which

3 unit they were from; correct?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. But you're telling us here that you don't know which units they

6 were from; correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Now, you're asked later on: "But you were in the military and

9 this is your area of responsibility. How could you have not known who

10 these people are? There are troops, civilians, and yet there's all these

11 armed people standing around."

12 And your answer is: "So I was told to go there and I was also

13 told there would be some people from the battalion, and I was told to go

14 there near the UN base and secure that area.

15 "My question to you, sir, is: Who told you that people from the

16 battalion would be there?"

17 Or was this just something you were assuming when you were giving

18 your statement, because you saw some of your fellow soldiers there on the

19 video?

20 A. Well --

21 Q. Is it possible that nobody told you and you just saw that on the

22 video and you assumed?

23 A. After a group of buses had left with women and children aboard and

24 the rest, I went behind, I believe, the technical repairs shop of Crvenka

25 transport into a woods there. I cannot recall exactly who came and said

Page 6037

1 that there was no one securing the area there and that we had to go to the

2 transport firm in Srebrenica -- in Potocari, because there at the entrance

3 were many people so that we had to see that that was handled. I cannot

4 remember who came.

5 Q. Okay. Were you just assuming that, because there were soldiers

6 there and you had seen some from the Bratunac Brigade, that all those

7 soldiers were from the Bratunac? Was that just an assumption that you

8 were making?

9 A. I knew some of them, as I said awhile ago, and I had known some of

10 them prior to joining the military police because I would be occasionally

11 assigned to help in the other battalions. So I cannot say exactly this is

12 that person, this is so-and-so.

13 Q. Okay. Now, is it an assumption on your part that since there were

14 members of the Bratunac Brigade there, that they had to be an assignment?

15 A. Well, most probably they were there.

16 Q. All right. Because that would seem natural; correct? So you

17 don't know whether some just left the line and out of curiosity went to

18 Bratunac, or whether in fact they were given orders by their commanders to

19 go there?

20 A. I don't know that.

21 Q. All right. Isn't it just as likely, isn't it just as likely, that

22 those men may have gone there to Potocari out of curiosity and never had

23 any orders? Isn't that just as likely of a possibility?

24 A. It is a possibility.

25 Q. One of the people that you notice in the film was a soldier from

Page 6038

1 the Bratunac Brigade who was quite often on the list for the military

2 police to locate and arrest. Do you recall that person?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And I think he goes by the nickname of Like?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And as I understand it from your testimony, he was sort of a free

7 spirit, an independent person, who never liked to be under command;

8 correct?

9 A. Yes. To tell you the truth, he would try to play the macho guy.

10 I don't know how old he was, but he wasn't married or anything like that.

11 So he liked to -- but I don't know which battalion he was a member of.

12 Q. But my point is --

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. My point is: Here is one individual who was quite often on the

15 list for leaving the line and doing whatever he wanted to do; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And the people that you saw on the video who are on the side - I

18 believe it would be on the left side as the car is driving down - they're

19 just standing there or walking by; correct?

20 A. Some were standing, some were walking.

21 Q. All right. And again, just by looking at that video and by

22 looking at what those soldiers were doing at the time, you cannot tell us

23 with any degree of certainty that they weren't there just out of curiosity

24 and walking through or that they actually had been sent there by their

25 commanders to carry out a particular order?

Page 6039

1 A. I said that a little bit earlier, that I really -- I just perhaps

2 went up to them to ask them for a light for my cigarette or something like

3 that. I didn't ask them anything. I didn't ask them why they were

4 standing there or anything like that. I was standing over there where the

5 people were entering the buses. So I really had no intention of creating

6 any kind of excess or, I don't know, outburst. I am the kind of person

7 who wouldn't like to ruin somebody else by my actions or anything like

8 that.

9 Q. And we appreciate that. We just want you to tell us to the best

10 of your recollection what it is that you remember. Now, the following

11 day -- are you okay?

12 A. I'm a little tired because I didn't sleep, but no problem. I will

13 try to go on as long as possible.

14 Q. Okay. Now, the following day - now we're talking about the 13th

15 of July, okay?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. From what I've read in your statement, you go to the compound

18 where the military police are stationed in Bratunac around 11.00 to 12.00;

19 is that correct?

20 A. Yes. Yes.

21 Q. And you're just sitting around with your colleagues drinking

22 coffee, waiting for some order?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And at some point you're asked to go back to Potocari; correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6040

1 Q. And in your statement you say that Dragisa Jovanovic was present

2 there on that morning; correct? It's on page -- if you just want to look

3 at it, I can focus you on the right page. It's on page 18 of the English

4 version, line 2. It should be around page 17 --

5 A. Yes. Yes.

6 Q. Do you see that?

7 A. Yes, I remember, because I leafed through this many times last

8 night and I read it. And as I said at the beginning of this testimony

9 today, last night and after the conversation with you yesterday and the

10 cross-examination, I really apologise to the gentlemen, to the Judges, to

11 the Prosecution, and to you, and also to the gentlemen Jokic and

12 Blagojevic over there. I -- when I try to remember something -- I don't

13 know, maybe Jovanovic wasn't in Bratunac. I really cannot claim whether

14 he was or wasn't, so I am unsure about that. I've said many times

15 already, if I need to be held accountable for that statement, then very

16 well, I can be held accountable for it. But I thought about that

17 statement so much and everything that I was up all night. I didn't sleep.

18 Q. Well, it's possible that you just made a mistake, that you just

19 got mixed up on the dates; correct?

20 A. Maybe I mixed up the dates. Maybe I said it wrongly, that he was

21 there. But I really do not wish to liable anyone or blacken anybody's

22 name. I really --

23 Q. We're not suggesting you're doing that. We're just trying to see

24 if we can get you to recall the events. Okay. So don't worry about what

25 you said, we're just trying to have you now help us out with some details.

Page 6041

1 Okay.

2 But if Mr. -- Now, if Mr. Jovanovic states, as he did to the

3 Office of the Prosecution back on 26th November 2001 in his statement, and

4 it's on page 9. He states that -- he's asked when did he leave Bratunac.

5 And he states that: "It was on the 18th or 19th of June."

6 You would have no reason to distrust him, would you?

7 A. No, I would not. I really wouldn't like anything like that.

8 That's why last night I looked over this a thousand and one times and read

9 it back. And I really didn't -- I had some sort of inner unrest and I

10 just couldn't -- but I really wouldn't like to wrongly accuse anyone or

11 anything like that. Because -- well, perhaps as they say, we're all

12 responsible for there and ...

13 Q. Now, on the 13th at some point you indicated you went to Potocari;

14 correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And in your statement you indicate that you went there sometime --

17 or first you say: "Maybe around 1400 hours," that would be about 2.00 in

18 the afternoon.

19 A. Yes. I really cannot remember the precise details, whether I came

20 at 11.00 or not. Maybe I came at 10.00. Or if I did come, it was maybe

21 around or close to noon. So I really cannot tell you when I went up there

22 what time it was and so on.

23 Q. Okay. And you state that when you went to Potocari you went there

24 with the TAM truck?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6042

1 Q. All right. Now, you were asked if Mirko Jankovic was with you at

2 the time, and you indicated: "Yes."

3 My question is: Are you sure or were you just assuming that he

4 must have been with you; which of the two?

5 A. As far as I can remember, this was on the 13th, we entered the

6 base. I don't know exactly. I cannot remember because I don't know

7 whether it was on the 13th or -- I can't remember exactly. They allowed

8 us in because of the buses, because there were a lot of people who had

9 entered the SFOR base in Potocari. So they allowed us to come in with the

10 buses. They allowed the buses in so that we would escort them -- I don't

11 know whether they went towards Kladanj or -- I don't know about that. But

12 we went in together with the soldiers of the international forces, they

13 were standing together with us, the ones who were still there in Potocari.

14 So as far as I can recall, Jankovic didn't stay there for very long.

15 Maybe he came with us and then the TAMic returned immediately.

16 Q. Well, are you sure he came with me or are you just assuming he

17 came with you? If you don't know --

18 A. I think that he came after us. I think that he came after us, but

19 I cannot be sure. I think I might have seen him for a moment, but again,

20 I cannot be sure. I really would not like to ...

21 Q. Now, you were also asked if you saw Momir Nikolic on the 13th. Do

22 you recall that?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, you had seen him on the 12th; correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 6043

1 Q. And from reading your statement, I didn't see anywhere where you

2 noticed him coordinating the various units that were there or giving

3 orders to superior officers on how the evacuations should take place?

4 A. No. I couldn't have been present there.

5 Q. All right.

6 A. Because he had -- well, he was my teacher in secondary school, and

7 we were on friendly terms. But we were aware of his rank and my rank, and

8 perhaps I could have just gone up to say hello to him and leave. But I

9 wasn't really meant to stand there and stay there.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Are we going to go beyond, Your Honour, because we

11 started a little bit late?

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, perhaps we could make a stop here and we could

13 resume at 4.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 3.29 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, would you please tell me how much

17 time you still need for this witness.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Hopefully I can wrap it up, Your Honour, within

19 about 15 minutes.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may proceed.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.

22 Q. Mr. Zaric, when we left off we were speaking about Mr. Nikolic on

23 the -- on July 13th. Okay?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, from your statement you indicate that you did see

Page 6044

1 Mr. Nikolic, Momir Nikolic, in Potocari on the 13th when you went there.

2 Do you recall reading that in your statement?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And do you also recall reading in your statement that it was your

5 recollection that a conversation took place between Mirko Jankovic and

6 Momir Nikolic? Do you recall reading that? For the record, I'm referring

7 to page 22, and it's between the lines 8 and --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you recall reading that? Now, you indicated that you overheard

10 a conversation between Mirko Jankovic and Momir Nikolic; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. As you sit here today, are you certain that this conversation ever

13 took place on July 13th, 1995?

14 A. I cannot say whether that was on the 13th of July, 1995, or

15 whether it was on the 12th or the 14th, but I think that it did happen. I

16 cannot say that with certainty, but I think so.

17 Q. So you think there was a conversation at some point in time

18 between Mirko Jankovic and Momir Nikolic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Do you recall -- and would that have been in Potocari or could

21 that have been in Bratunac? Could it have been some other place?

22 A. This was in Potocari.

23 Q. But in your statement, you state that it was the 13th; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you state that it took place sometime around 1500, 1600, or

Page 6045

1 1700 hours - again for the record that's on page 22, line 22, 21 and 22 of

2 your statement.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Now, what if I were to tell you, Mr. Zaric, that on the

5 13th of July Mr. Nikolic has testified that he was only in Potocari for an

6 hour or so early in the morning sometime around 10.00 to 11.00 that

7 morning, and that after that he left? Would you tend to believe

8 Mr. Nikolic or would you tend to believe your memory?

9 A. I cannot remember exactly at the moment what date it was. It's

10 been a long time since then, and things have happened. So I don't know

11 whether this was on the 12th in the afternoon or on the 13th. I really

12 cannot remember that.

13 Q. So it would not come to you as a surprise if you were to learn,

14 then, that according to Momir Nikolic, during that period of time he was

15 at or around the vicinity of Konjevic Polje on that road someplace at the

16 same time that you stated, in Banja Luka, he was in Potocari having a

17 conversation with Mirko Jankovic?

18 A. It's possible.

19 Q. Well -- and if that is possible and if Mr. Jankovic were to also

20 state that earlier in the day he was with, he was with Momir Nikolic and

21 Mile Petrovic, during that period of time when you would have thought to

22 have seen Momir Nikolic or Mile Petrovic in Potocari, you would have no

23 reason today to disbelieve them, would you?

24 A. The two of them kept their own records of where they went, so I

25 don't know. As far as I'm concerned, I don't know whether it was on the

Page 6046

1 12th or on the 13th.

2 Q. All right.

3 A. Perhaps I said the wrong date or something.

4 Q. Okay. Well, because the dates are very critical in this case.

5 That's the only reason why we're going over this. And on that particular

6 day we know that sometime in the early afternoon, at least from the

7 testimony that has come before this Tribunal, that Nikolic, Jankovic, and

8 Petrovic were together on that stretch of road leading towards Konjevic

9 Polje and were not in that other direction in Potocari, where you might

10 have been?

11 A. It's possible.

12 Q. Now, yesterday and today we discussed several areas where you have

13 acknowledged that you've been incorrect with your facts, as you stated

14 them in Banja Luka, facts such as who was your commander; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You were wrong about that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You were wrong about who was your deputy commander; correct? Or

19 you still don't know?

20 A. Sir, may I just say what I've already repeated many times. I came

21 to the military police in September. The commander was Dragisa Jovanovic,

22 and his deputy was Mirko Jankovic. So after that what changed or -- we

23 had no idea about that. We didn't know who appointed them or anything

24 like that. And I wasn't interested either.

25 Q. All right. Let me quote to you from a statement given by

Page 6047

1 Mr. Jankovic on 28 November 2001, where he says on page 10, he says -- and

2 I'm reading from line 1: "Then next is my deputy, and my deputy was

3 Mile Petrovic."

4 And he goes on to state on page -- on the same page, lines 3 and

5 4 -- 3 to 5 that: "He was appointed to that post by the command because

6 he was a good man, honest, and conscientious and so on."

7 This is a statement given by Mirko Jankovic to the Prosecution.

8 Now, as you stand here today, you have no reason to disbelieve

9 Mr. Jankovic, do you?

10 A. No, I don't.

11 Q. So just to recap, so that was one more example of you being wrong,

12 not knowing who indeed was your deputy commander at the time when

13 Srebrenica fell; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You were also not sure -- or you were also wrong with respect to

16 Jovanovic; correct, Mr. Jovanovic being in Potocari, you were wrong on

17 that instance as well. Correct.

18 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

20 MR. WAESPI: Just in terms of clarification, the witness said what

21 he believed was correct at the time he gave the statement in Banja Luka or

22 today. That doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong what he's saying. If

23 counsel puts his information to him, that's his side, but I think it's

24 misleading if we put something to a witness saying, you know, this is

25 right or wrong. I think he has testified to his personal observations and

Page 6048

1 he has given the basis for these observations. If he believes at a

2 certain time that a certain person was his commander or his deputy

3 commander, then that's his belief. He can be cross-examined what the

4 basis is for that belief.

5 JUDGE LIU: I think, Mr. Karnavas, in the past you always

6 distinguish the different characteristics of the questions, whether his

7 statement is wrong or whether the facts is another matter.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: I totally agree with you, Your Honour, but if I

9 may, and I don't want to have a long debate, but I'm sure the Prosecution

10 knows that I have a good-faith basis for making these statements and

11 eliciting from the witness his confession of error. But I will, because

12 they know from their own documentation who was the commander or the deputy

13 commander and where was Mr. Jovanovic at the time, these are facts that

14 are well within their grasp and reach and not something I am making up as

15 a result of my own investigation. Be that as it may, I will proceed in

16 another direction and I will be wrapping up my cross, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE LIU: By the way, Mr. Karnavas, I believe those questions

18 have been asked and answered during your cross-examination already.

19 There's no need to sum up for us, if I may say that.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, as you aptly pointed out, Mr. President,

21 there was a slight different spin to the line of questioning, but if I may

22 have the indulgence in perhaps one or two questions, then -- and I will

23 sit down. But I see the point. Incidentally, just for the record, I'm

24 reminded when I'm making a reference to Mr. Jankovic's statement for

25 identification purposes is D53/1.

Page 6049

1 Q. Mr. Zaric, during the period that we've had to discuss your

2 statement, it's fairly clear that as you sit here today you're rather

3 confused as to the dates, the places, the names, and the events; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And I take it when you were back in Banja Luka, you were equally

6 confused, though you were trying to do the best that you could, given the

7 fact that the events took place several years earlier; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you knew you were being questioned as a suspect; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you were, as I understand it from reading your statement,

12 rather concerned as to what might happen, because back home in Potocari

13 you were concerned for your child because of an incident that had

14 occurred, a tragic incident that had occurred, in your family. Correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you very much.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

19 Mr. Stojanovic, any cross-examination?

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I

21 think that I will have about half an hour's worth of questions.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may proceed.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

24 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Zaric.

25 A. Good afternoon.

Page 6050

1 Q. I will try to concentrate on the part relating to the 14th and the

2 Zvornik Brigade. And since we are speaking the same language, could you

3 please make sure that you don't start answering right away, but only when

4 you get the signal then to start so that the interpreters can do their job

5 as well.

6 A. Very well.

7 Q. I would like to ask you several questions which are directly

8 related to your testimony of yesterday. When I was preparing for this

9 cross-examination and reading your statement, I came to a part which was

10 interpreted differently yesterday and I wanted to clarify that. In the

11 statement that you gave to the Prosecution in Banja Luka, the question

12 about the 14th and the arrival to the Zvornik Brigade was whether

13 Mirko Jankovic was with you, and you said no. And then there was a

14 question whether Dragisa Jovanovic was with you and you said yes. These

15 questions were put by Mr. McCloskey. Do you remember that?

16 A. Yes. I was going over that last night, so perhaps you mentioned

17 that many times. In the course of the questioning today, I'm uncertain

18 mostly and I was suffering because of that myself and agonising over it

19 until dawn because I was not able to tell things precisely. A long time

20 has passed since then and everything. So I cannot say exactly about

21 Dragisa Jovanovic. I'm not sure about the statement that I gave to the

22 investigative organs there and so on. I am not trying to evade the

23 consequences. And if I have to be accountable for the things I have said,

24 I will, and that's it. I really cannot commit liable about somebody if

25 I'm not sure whether they were there or not. And I would definitely not

Page 6051

1 like to do something like that.

2 Q. I understand that, and it is quite clear in view of the passage of

3 time that we can have this misunderstanding. But I understood yesterday's

4 testimony and today's testimony in the sense that you still think that it

5 is possible that Mr. Dragisa Jovanovic was not there?

6 A. Yes. Yes. I apologise for this, because, for example, when I was

7 shown my statement from Banja Luka, I could have said this then. But even

8 then I wasn't sure and I'm not sure now. So I am saying openly that I am

9 not sure about that answer of mine and all that. Really, that is how I

10 feel now. I really would not like to sully anyone's name if I'm not sure.

11 Q. And that is exactly why, Radenko, I would like to ask you whether

12 it's possible that you perhaps switched names and that Mirko Jankovic went

13 with you in that column of buses which went towards Zvornik on the 14th?

14 A. I don't think it was Mirko Jankovic either, really. A person

15 cannot be sure. I'm trying to remember everything, but really, I cannot

16 remember the details. But I believe that Mirko wasn't there either or

17 Dragisa.

18 Q. So the next question would be how many of you accompanied the

19 buses and was anybody in charge of that group that was accompanying the

20 buses?

21 A. I was alone in the bus. There were women and children in the

22 buses, and there were elderly men. There were also some younger ones and

23 so on. But I was alone in the bus. And we perhaps boarded not more than

24 40 people per bus. There were attempts by those who had acquaintances.

25 They asked not to be separated. If there were families, they asked not to

Page 6052

1 be separated into different buses, because I was hearing stories that some

2 people were being sent towards Vlasenica, Sekovici, and Kladanj and some

3 of the other buses were sent towards Zvornik and so on. In front of us

4 there was a military vehicle. It was the corps military police that was

5 at the head of the column. I don't know whether it was a Pitzgauer or

6 some other vehicle. I cannot remember.

7 Q. And was there also security in the other vehicles, or were you the

8 only security staff in the whole column, other than those who were in the

9 Pitzgauer or in the other military vehicle?

10 A. I think there were also military security people in the other

11 buses.

12 Q. Can you recall the names of any other people who were with you

13 escorting the column?

14 A. I don't know who else was there. Where I was going, I think there

15 were some people from the corps police. There were a couple of men from

16 the Zvornik military police, but I'm not sure whether they were members of

17 the Zvornik military police or not. But I saw them when they were

18 standing there around the Zvornik Brigade command. I could tell that they

19 knew the people who were at the entrance, at the gate, and so on. So I

20 cannot say exactly whether they were members of the Zvornik Brigade

21 military police or not, but there were people there from the corps

22 military police. So I don't know whether there were others who were

23 accompanying the convoy. I cannot remember that now, because down there

24 where I went, I didn't see them.

25 Q. Radenko, does that mean that only you were in the convoy from the

Page 6053

1 Bratunac Brigade?

2 A. Perhaps there were others also, but I cannot remember that now.

3 I'm trying, and I'm burdening myself with it. But I'm trying as much as

4 possible to recall, but I cannot remember. At the time, I didn't see

5 anybody. I don't know whether some people went before me or after me, but

6 I didn't see that.

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 A. Let me say that I was not in that group. I was in the bus which

15 was painted in military colours. It was -- if you're from our area you

16 would know that the buses were -- had the insignia "VRS." And I was in

17 that bus. There was a hold-up, and somebody said that there was a

18 possibility that the bus needed to be emptied and that there would be

19 another bus, and that I would have to drive the people towards Baljkovica

20 because the Muslims who were trying to break out of Srebrenica towards

21 Tuzla - this is the conversation that I heard - had committed a massacre

22 near Baljkovica and this person told my driver that about 40 people were

23 killed on that occasion and that people had to be driven up there in order

24 to help out.

25 So at that point I left the bus because I was afraid that they

Page 6054

1 would also transfer me up there in that direction. So I tried to go

2 towards Konjevic Polje. And at that point, from the brigade, I can't

3 remember because I didn't really talk to that man very much, a vehicle

4 came out. I stopped the vehicle, and it took me up to Drinjaca, somewhere

5 around there. And from there, I slowly went on foot. The vehicle went to

6 Zelen Polje [phoen] or something, I don't know exactly. So I slowly

7 walked towards Konjevic Polje. And a military vehicle caught up with me,

8 so then I was taken all the way up to Konjevic Polje; that's where the

9 checkpoint was. The civilian police had already set up a checkpoint, so

10 there were a lot of people there. I could see there was some soldiers

11 were milling around, and I asked a civilian police officer if I can be

12 taken to Bratunac. So the first vehicle that came along took me to

13 Bratunac, but I cannot remember who was there.

14 Q. Now we have a situation here that we need to clarify. We have

15 information here about the fighting at Baljkovica and we have information

16 about the number of killed. You're talking about the 14th. These battles

17 and the people who were killed were not -- that did not happen on the

18 14th. So the question is: Is it possible that this event that you're

19 talking about was not on the 14th but maybe on the 15th?

20 A. Yes, it's possible. I cannot say that exactly. I've said that

21 before. Perhaps I've mistaken about the dates here as well, because when

22 the other gentleman, the other lawyer, was questioning me, I said that.

23 So it's possible. I really am not able to remember the precise dates.

24 Q. But can we agree that this -- that you came after you received or

25 heard the information about the 40 fighters killed in the area of

Page 6055

1 Baljkovica you arrived in the escort of this convoy?

2 A. Yes, I heard that in Zvornik in front of the command because we

3 were held up. The buses were just standing there. I don't know. I could

4 not say there were 50 buses that had stopped there, but I'm not sure

5 because I didn't know the exact number because I wasn't interested in

6 that. But a man came up to me. He left the gate, approached the driver.

7 I don't know whether they knew each other or not. He just said there was

8 the possibility that-- he probably did know him. So I cannot say

9 exactly.

10 Q. So it is possible that this did not take place on the 14th, and

11 you are quite certain that it was after you received information about

12 some 40 killed fighters?

13 A. I heard that information when it was told me by this person. I

14 was sitting there by the driver, at the conductor's seat.

15 Q. So we agree that this had to have taken place after these people

16 were killed?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you cannot say what date it was?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zaric.

21 There is another thing I wish to clarify. You said that there was

22 a bus with marks of the Army of the Republika Srpska. That was the

23 licence plate's marks. So when you said they had this mark, were you

24 referring to the licence plates or to the sides of the bus? And was this

25 on one bus or on all the buses in the convoy?

Page 6056

1 A. This was on quite a few buses. I was in Potocari. There were

2 buses of the Army of Republika Srpska that didn't have any markings on

3 their sides. For instance, Vihor or Drina Trans or Central Trans was --

4 or any transport firm on the bus. They had just on their licence plates

5 demark VRS.

6 Q. And these marks were on all the buses, were they not?

7 A. No. They were not on all the buses.

8 Q. In this convoy?

9 A. No. There were also buses with civilian licence plates there,

10 because this was an organised transport. Because of the load of the --

11 that the buses had to take up there in the fields near Glogova, if you

12 know where that is, one of the older buses, because it was overloaded,

13 actually came on fire. Actually the clutch plate broke down and it

14 couldn't actually make it up the hill so that -- they told us that

15 thereafter we could only have up to 40 -- between 30 and 40 people aboard

16 the bus. That is why we stopped there, because we wanted to prevent the

17 buses from being overloaded and wanted to avoid any problems and wanted to

18 avoid any protests by the people because of the way their families were

19 being treated in the bus.

20 Q. And how many buses in all were on the convoy, and were there only

21 buses in it or trucks as well?

22 A. I cannot give you the exact number of the buses, and this is what

23 I've also told the investigators. They were directing in Konjevic Polje

24 some of the buses towards Kladanj. Perhaps every second or third bus

25 would be sent in the direction of Kladanj, and other buses again towards

Page 6057

1 Zvornik. So this is the way they were sending them.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --


4 MR. KARNAVAS: I hate to interrupt, I'm told by my colleague --

5 JUDGE LIU: Your microphone, please.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: I hate to interrupt here, but I'm told by my

7 colleague that there may have been an error in the translation to the

8 previous question with respect to the gentleman's answer as far as, you

9 know, the answer dealing with the civilians in the buses and who they were

10 trying to protect them from and the protests. I don't want to give the

11 answer, what I believe it might be, but it's page 40, lines 5 to 7. So

12 perhaps the answer could be asked again by Mr. Stojanovic and the

13 gentleman could be given an opportunity.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

15 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Just one point of clarification, but I would

16 need to go to private session for that.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session, please.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 6058

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. So, Mr. Zaric, we'll go back to a segment of what you testified

10 about here. Just let me wrap up this first part. Last time when you

11 were answering the Prosecutor's questions - I'm referring to the statement

12 in Banja Luka - you said that about four to five buses were there. Today

13 you say that you do not remember. Can you tell us approximately what was

14 the size of this convoy.

15 A. I can tell you about the exact quantity when we came down there,

16 when this person said that we were supposed to go to Baljkovica. I went

17 outside and we stood there and there were about four or five buses there.

18 And then more buses arrived afterwards, but I cannot tell you exactly from

19 where they came. I don't know and I wasn't interested. And then I

20 boarded the bus again. And I only managed to ask, Am I still needed here?

21 Then they told me, Somebody will be coming shortly to see about the buses.

22 Then a man came who I cannot describe exactly, nor do I remember. He was

23 quite tall. He was dressed like a military policeman, and he only said --

24 Q. We'll go -- we'll come to that later. Can I take it that there

25 were four or five buses, and then a bit later some more buses arrived so

Page 6059

1 that there were about ten buses in all?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. I shall now try to go back to this part. You

4 mentioned this today and you also referred to this in the statement you

5 gave, namely I'm speaking about the statement you gave in Banja Luka. The

6 question of Mr. McCloskey was: "Who was on those buses?"

7 And you said: "There were women and men on the buses."

8 Mr. McCloskey then told you: "No one so far has testified that

9 there have been any women on those buses."

10 Today you repeated that there were women, and you also added that

11 there had also been children on the buses. Please try to remember: Were

12 there on those buses women, children, and men, or were there only men on

13 the buses?

14 A. The -- where I was -- the buses that I was escorting, there were

15 men as well as the elderly and children and women.

16 Q. We have a number of testimonies here, Mr. Zaric, to the effect

17 that buses with children and women were directed, as you described, from

18 Konjevic Polje towards Kasaba, Glasinica [as interpreted], Tisce and on

19 towards Kladanj. Is it possible, given your position as a suspect and the

20 problem you are confronted with in terms of your memory, that you have

21 actually mixed this up, that this was the bus that was going in the

22 direction of Tisca, with men and women and children and elderly men, and

23 not towards this place, not towards Zvornik?

24 A. It is possible, because really ...

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zaric. Because in a way this corresponds to what

Page 6060

1 has been heard before this Court so far. There have been no testimonies,

2 at least not to my knowledge, that there were women and children and the

3 elderly taken in the direction of Zvornik. But let us try to confirm this

4 through the questions which will follow. You said that you left them in

5 front of the command building, that you believe was the command of the

6 Zvornik Brigade. Do you know at all where the command of the

7 Zvornik Brigade is?

8 A. The command of the Zvornik Brigade was at the Standard building.

9 Now it's the Faculty of Technology.

10 Q. Do you know where this building is located, the Standard building,

11 in what part of Zvornik?

12 A. Towards the crossing at the border with Serbia and Montenegro.

13 Q. Is this building by the main road or does one have to take a turn

14 from the main road in order to reach the Standard facility?

15 A. Yes. One has to get off the main road, perhaps 5 metres off it in

16 order to get into the facility.

17 Q. There was a testimony provided here and material evidence to the

18 effect that in the command there was a bus - when I say "the command" I

19 mean the closed compound of the Zvornik Brigade - there was a bus there.

20 I wanted to ask you in view of the fact that you said a while ago that the

21 buses were held up in front of the command of the Zvornik Brigade. Can

22 you tell us if we show you a map, can you try and indicate on the map

23 exactly where those buses were standing?

24 A. No problem.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will use the

Page 6061

1 exhibit for identification marked D62, which we have provided to the

2 Prosecution, and may I ask you also to provide one to the witness.

3 Q. Please kindly seek to concentrate and organise yourself and to

4 focus on this plan, this outline of the approach, access to the facility,

5 and try to indicate for us where were the buses standing in the command of

6 the Zvornik Brigade.

7 A. Here in front is the road leading from Zvornik to Karakaj.

8 Q. I believe that you should turn around the map, because you're

9 pointing at the bank re -- it is -- so under -- below that in the right

10 angle is the direction towards Zvornik and the left corner, direction

11 Karakaj. If you can take a look at that.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Please try and concentrate and we'll try to have you tell us where

14 was it that these buses were held up in front of the command of the

15 Zvornik Brigade?

16 A. This was the gate post here. I believe that it was somewhere

17 around this place that a truck was parked. And as far as I can recall,

18 there was one here that was heading towards the entrance. The next bus

19 was here where I was, the one where I was. I cannot remember exactly

20 whether it was -- whether there was another one here around the entrance,

21 around the gate post, another bus.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, could we ask the witness to mark

23 on this map the locations where the bus was?

24 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. That would

25 have been my next question and we would then also submit that as an

Page 6062

1 exhibit of the Defence, because we will show in further proceedings that

2 the places that he's talking about could not objectively receive all these

3 buses. Thank you.

4 Q. So if I can ask you, please, use a pencil to mark, Mr. Zaric, mark

5 number 1 for our benefit and circle that marked number. And make a larger

6 circle, of course. By all means.

7 Number 2 would be the second bus as indicated and marked by you.

8 Please also circle that number. Were both buses entering or were here at

9 this lay-by on the right side. Please mark that as well.

10 A. What do you mean?

11 Q. You just showed us a while ago here at the entrance on the

12 right --

13 A. Where the 2 is?

14 Q. You try, you try, you try to indicate the exact is spot. You try

15 to tell us whether there was any bus within the compound or were they in

16 front of the compound and mark them accordingly in circles, encircle them.

17 A. The one that I was escorting was around here, around this place.

18 Q. So you mark it by 3, mark it by 3, thank you, and please also make

19 it bolder, the line.

20 A. Now, I cannot recall with precision really whether it was

21 somewhere here around this storehouse, warehouse, this bus -- I really

22 cannot remember.

23 Q. Am I right if I say that from what you have indicated, you can

24 only confirm that one bus was certainly -- had certainly entered the

25 compound of the Zvornik Brigade?

Page 6063

1 A. Yes. And the other one had just set off and it was stopped and

2 this soldier came up to the driver, most probably they knew each other,

3 and then they saw -- they talked about what was going to be done next.

4 Q. Thank you. Can you just show us on this map and also indicate the

5 coming buses that you referred to, the buses that were coming -- which

6 direction were they coming and where did they stop at the particular

7 moments?

8 A. They were coming from the direction of Zvornik. This is where

9 they were. So this is -- some of them were here in front towards Karakaj.

10 Who was escorting them is something I don't know, nor was I -- I just

11 managed to come to this point to see what was being planned on. As this

12 person said that the possibility existed for the buses to be emptied, to

13 take men to Baljkovica.

14 Q. Please mark this. Can I ask you, mark this by numbers on the left

15 margin, the coming numbers, the subsequent numbers, 4, 5, 6, namely the

16 places from which they continued their journeys towards Karakaj.

17 A. Well, yes, one was here, one here, two here, and the same applies

18 to the rest, because they kept coming.

19 Q. Please put the numbers 4 and 5 there.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Thank you. Am I right if I say that the left side of this main

22 road is a lay-by where there is enough space for buses to stop on the left

23 side of the main --

24 A. Towards Karakaj?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 6064

1 A. Yes. This was the parking spot of this Standard factory and of

2 the textile plant.

3 Q. Thank you. Well, should I try to wrap up this particular

4 question. What were people saying, then? Where were these prisoners

5 going, the women, the children, the men, that you talked about?

6 A. This soldier who walked up to the driver only said that much.

7 Later this person came and said, There are no problems. My people will

8 come; they will take over the buses. And you -- if any vehicles should

9 come along, and there should be one coming along to Drinjaca, you try to

10 get a ride to your units. Not five minutes had passed after that. This

11 vehicle indeed arrived. I cannot remember this moment what it looked

12 like -- what the driver looked like. It was some sort of a passenger car.

13 And so I sat with him and I got a ride to Drinjaca. And then from there,

14 I walked slowly and on foot, having covered 2 or 3 kilometres, I -- after

15 that, there was -- another military vehicle came along and I hitched a

16 ride and I managed to return to the Bratunac Brigade.

17 Q. And you're not sure on which date this took place?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were they saying that these people were going to be exchanged?

20 A. I didn't hear anything of the kind, any such stories. This --

21 when this gentleman came out, he was probably an officer but he didn't

22 have any insignia, so I don't know. I didn't ask, of course. And he just

23 told us, You try and get yourselves rides to your -- and he also said, If

24 you remain here, if you stay on here, I'll tell people to find you a ride

25 in a vehicle going to Drinjaca.

Page 6065

1 Q. You said that escorting the convoy was a vehicle that you

2 identified as a Pitzgauer?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you see a UN-marked vehicle, a white vehicle, at the end or at

5 the front of the column?

6 A. No. I cannot say that I saw one when I didn't see one. As I told

7 the investigators in Banja Luka, in fact.

8 Q. Can you tell us at approximately what time was it when you were in

9 front of the Zvornik Brigade, what time of the day was it?

10 A. I cannot tell you exactly, because I do not want the same thing to

11 happen when I mentioned some things before here. And I believe it was in

12 the afternoon, but I cannot say exactly. Because I know when later I

13 came -- I arrived in the Bratunac Brigade and I was on duty at -- that

14 night, I believe I stated it was between the 13th and the 14th, but I

15 cannot claim that with certainty.

16 That was the first time I saw Mr. Blagojevic leaving the command,

17 as he went out of the command. That was, in fact, the first time I saw

18 him in that command at all. And after a couple of days, after all this, I

19 struck up a conversation with someone. And I said to someone, Well,

20 Mr. Blagojevic is here. And then that person said, Well, he is the

21 commander. And I really didn't know until the Srebrenica thing had passed

22 that he had been appointed commander of the Bratunac Brigade and all that.

23 And I said yesterday -- you have all these facts and data. And I think

24 that he was the 10th or 15th commander of that brigade. This is something

25 that I wasn't at all interested in who was on what position. I was just

Page 6066

1 an ordinary soldier. I was only carrying out my orders.

2 What else can I say? Nothing. There is nothing more that I can

3 say. I've tried to say several times here that really when I made certain

4 statements, I may have made a mistake in certain respects. I'm not

5 avoiding any responsibility. If I am accountable for anything, for war

6 crimes, for perjury, or for giving false testimony, I'm not seeking to

7 evade responsibility, if need be, right now.

8 Q. When you provided your previous statement, you had the status of

9 suspect, and this is what your -- this was well-known to you?

10 A. Yes, and that is the same at this moment.

11 Q. And then you were told that you did not know how long this status

12 of yours would last?

13 A. Yes. I didn't speak with the Prosecutor, the gentlemen for the

14 Prosecution at all.

15 Q. And you gave your statement in light of a family problem that you

16 had at the time?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did that also disturb you while you were giving the statement?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you tell the Court what this is all about, tell them freely.

21 You are protected here and you should be protected here while you are

22 giving your testimony.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, I think this issue is not quite

24 relevant to the subject matter of this case, and it will give tremendous

25 suffering to this witness. So would you please withdraw this question and

Page 6067

1 try to wrap up your cross-examination as soon as possible.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I will

3 be bringing it to a close. I just have one more topic.

4 Q. We really do not wish to place you in any uncomfortable position

5 with your testimony here, Radenko. Just one more thing I want to clarify.

6 You were speaking about this on topic a little bit earlier. Can we go on?

7 A. Yes, we can.

8 Q. This man who came out who you described as a tall man with a white

9 belt, a member of the military police?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I just wanted to clarify one sentence that you mentioned here, and

12 that this was, as you said, a tall man. And you indicated to the

13 investigator who was present, Bruce Bursik?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. For the record, could you please tell us what type of a person was

16 this, what are the characteristics, the physical characteristics of

17 Bruce Bursik?

18 A. Well, I cannot give his precise height but it could be between 180

19 to 190 centimetres, 1.8, 1.9 metres, and about 40 or so years old, perhaps

20 a little younger or a little older by a few years. I cannot say that

21 precisely. I cannot give you a precise estimate about that.

22 Q. And he was wearing white belts?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you don't know who this person is?

25 A. No.

Page 6068

1 Q. And I just wanted to finish with one more question. You said that

2 this military police officer at the gate said that the rest of the buses

3 should not enter?

4 A. Yes. That's right. One bus went in, and the second started to go

5 in, but then he stopped it and it stopped. This -- as you could see

6 yourself, if you were down there you know that there is room to stop

7 there. So that is where we got out.

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank

9 you to the witness. I apologise if there was anything which could bring

10 you into an uncomfortable position.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no more questions,

13 Your Honour.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

15 Mr. Waespi.

16 MR. WAESPI: Yes, there is just one issue to clarify.

17 Re-examined by Mr. Waespi:

18 Q. Witness, you have been asked by Mr. Karnavas about the 13th of

19 July, and you indicated you went to the compound where UNPROFOR was. And

20 then you said, and I quote you: "They allowed us to come in with the

21 buses."

22 Now, can you tell us first, who is "they"? Who allowed you to

23 come in?

24 A. Whether he was an officer or he was just standing there at the

25 entrance, at the ramp. They had their soldiers there at the ramp at the

Page 6069

1 entrance to the base. This was a battery factory. We had to leave our

2 weapons at the entrance, leave them with them. And to go down there to

3 board the people on the buses. We were not to go into the base with

4 weapons, but we were to accompany the buses into the base. On our way out

5 of the base, we would take our weapons. And now I cannot tell you whether

6 he was a corporal or a captain or I don't know what his rank was. I think

7 at the time there were Dutch soldiers there.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zaric. And you talk about "we," that you were

9 allowed to get in. Were there other members of the military police with

10 you at the time who was allowed in?

11 A. There were about four or five of us there perhaps, who just

12 happened to be there. Somebody said we should go and accompany the buses,

13 somebody who was down there, to go to this base, to the UNPROFOR base,

14 whatever you like.

15 Q. Like you, members of the military police?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And do you recall -- you just told us that somebody said we should

18 go. Can you tell us who the somebody was.

19 A. I cannot remember exactly, because there were a lot of commanders

20 there from the corps, from the Drina Corps. Because this was -- well,

21 General Krstic was there and I don't know who else. I don't really -- he

22 was there the most -- well, as the commander of the Drina Corps. At the

23 time, he was thought to be the commander of the Drina Corps. So just like

24 they say that Mr. Blagojevic was the commander of the Bratunac Brigade.

25 And he was --

Page 6070

1 Q. But I'm sure you would recall if it was the --

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection, Your Honour. It calls for speculation.

3 The witness answered. Now we're trying to get the witness to -- a

4 multiple choice in hopes of making some sort of record for an argument

5 down the road. He asked a question; he should live with the answer. The

6 gentleman indicated he doesn't know.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe Mr. Waespi has not finished his

8 question. I think you are speculating at this point.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm a little bit clairvoyant on this one,

10 Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: Let's hear what the question is put by Mr. Waespi.


13 Q. Did you ever get an order from General Krstic?

14 A. I did not. Whether he told somebody else or, as they say,

15 somebody conveyed that. But from him directly, I did not get any orders.

16 Whether he gave to some of the people who were there, some of his men,

17 because those people who were around him, I didn't know them.

18 Q. So it wasn't him you got the order from to go into the compound?

19 A. Yes. A man came to us. He was dark. He combed his hair upwards

20 and he said, A couple of you that are standing there should go. There

21 were about four or five of us. I don't know exactly how many of us there

22 were. Some were there near the factory. He said, Take this bus and go to

23 the bus so that people can get on and the women and children who were down

24 there so that they can be transported towards the end point and so on, to

25 their destination. I don't know what his name was.

Page 6071

1 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. No further questions.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes. At this stage are there any documents to tender.

3 Mr. Waespi?

4 MR. WAESPI: Yes. I don't know what the procedures are for 92 bis

5 statements, but that would be the right moment to tender it. And I think

6 the exhibit number would be P685.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

8 Any objections?

9 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

11 Mr. Stojanovic?

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: This document, 685, is admitted into the evidence.

14 Are there any documents on the part of the Defence that would like

15 to be tendered. Mr. Karnavas?

16 MR. KARNAVAS: We do not, Your Honour, have any documents to

17 tender, although I would, again, ask that at some point the translators

18 would look at page 40, line 5 to 7, and if they could -- it wasn't -- the

19 question was never re-asked and just for the sake of having a clear

20 record.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, thank you very much. I believe that the

22 translators after our sitting will check the transcript. And I hope they

23 could, through the Registrar, give you an answer to that. Thank you.

24 Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any documents to tender?

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I would like

Page 6072

1 to use this opportunity to tender D62. This is a document that you have

2 in front of you, but I would just like it to be admitted with the markings

3 that the witness made today on this exhibit.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

5 Any objections?

6 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

8 This document, D62/3, is admitted into the evidence.

9 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to give your

10 evidence. The usher will show you out of the room. We all wish you a

11 pleasant journey back home. Thank you. You are free to go.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Sinatra, now I think it's time to deal with

15 your housekeeping matters. As you probably understand that at the meeting

16 a document this Trial Chamber would like to reiterate the three criteria

17 we mentioned in the guidelines. One is the reliability, the other is the

18 relevancy, the third one is the probative value of that. I hope your

19 submission could concentrate on these three points.

20 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I believe that it has probative

21 value and it was already accepted as evidence in the Krstic trial, so it

22 must have been proven reliable. We have no objections from the

23 Prosecution. It's offered, not to prove the contents of the document

24 being offered, but to show that the circumstances involved -- it's the

25 only raw material, only recording, that we have that exists in the

Page 6073

1 Tribunal, as far as I know, from the Okresanica [Realtime transcript read

2 in error "Orahovac"] facility. And we're using this document to show the

3 circumstances and the recording abilities and the process that they must

4 deal with at Okresanica [Realtime transcript read in error "Orahovac"]

5 with five of these going on at one time. This witness, of course, could

6 not testify to Okresanica [Realtime transcript read in error "Orahovac"],

7 but he did testify that this is a normal recording and he recognised it as

8 something that he was accustomed to listening to.

9 I think as an offer of proof for the lack of authenticated

10 process, the lack of reliability of intercepts, this should be offered

11 into evidence to show the process that all of the communications centres

12 had to go through. And it is the only evidence -- the best evidence that

13 we have to offer at this point.

14 JUDGE LIU: I understand that you do not want the contents to be

15 translated into a language that we understand; you just want to show the

16 circumstances. Am I right?

17 MS. SINATRA: That's correct, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Can you tell us so far as you know what is the date of

19 that.

20 MS. SINATRA: I believe it's the first week in August, but they

21 couldn't verify that because it's a continuing tape. It's the first week

22 of August from the Okresanica facility. It is not July 14th, 1995, which

23 would have been, as the witness testified, a much heavier traffic day. So

24 this just shows a normal day, August 1995, versus July 14th, 1995.

25 JUDGE LIU: I see Mr. Stojanovic is standing. Do you want to add

Page 6074

1 something?

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like -- I think on

3 page 56 two times on line 14 and line 10 it was stated instead of

4 Okresanica, it was said Orahovac. Just for the transcript, this is just a

5 slip. So this is a recording that originates from Okresanica.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. We'll have the interpreters check it out

7 after the sitting.

8 Yes.

9 MS. SINATRA: And I thank my learned colleague for pointing that

10 out. But we would like to offer, even though untimely, D61/3, into

11 evidence for those purposes.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

13 Well, Mr. McCloskey, are you sure that this is the tape-recording

14 in your possession or in the whole Tribunal, as Ms. Sinatra claimed?

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm not exactly sure which tape this is. There is

16 a tape that is, I believe, a tape like Ms. Sinatra says that we think is a

17 tape from August from Okresanica that we think reflects the recordings as

18 they occurred. We also have a tape that we think are a collection of

19 intercepts that the intel people had, which is different, obviously, from

20 something that is recorded live. I think Ms. Sinatra is probably correct

21 that it's the first one she's talking about. She's -- we provided that

22 material with her and she had an expert. So I don't have a reason to

23 doubt that. There are other tapes for other time periods. But for the

24 period that was anywhere near relevant, it really comes down to these two

25 tapes that I have described, and that's really August. I think one of

Page 6075

1 the, one of the tapes that we think is a collection had a 13 July

2 conversation in it, but it didn't really have much relevance to anything

3 that anyone has commented on. So that's in answer to your question about

4 tapes.

5 In particular regarding their -- I would object to this piece of

6 evidence coming in under this particular witness. As I recall his

7 testimony, he said that from his position in Dekic, they listened to only

8 one person at a time speaking on the frequency. He said that -- my

9 recollection is that the tape that we played for him was not the same as

10 the kind of material he listened so. Because as we all heard, you could

11 hear a couple of people speaking in the background and it was -- it's

12 different. He believe, I said, that's the kind like the other guys would

13 get on the mountaintop.

14 So while I think it was interesting to hear it and hear his

15 comments on it and it did provide us some idea about what he listened to,

16 in that regard it may be helpful for the Court. I don't see how it's now

17 helpful to have that in evidence, especially since we don't know what is

18 said in it. And this really isn't the witness for this tape. If counsel

19 has an expert and is challenging the Okresanica material, then perhaps at

20 a later date it would be relevant. But for what this witness said about

21 it, all that is really relevant is that he said not the kind of material

22 that he was listening to. So he's really not the right witness. But for

23 whatever value you think it may be, that would be the Prosecution's

24 submission. I don't -- I think it came into the record. We heard it.

25 What else do we need it for, really.

Page 6076

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

2 Ms. Sinatra.

3 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE LIU: We are not debating here.

5 MS. SINATRA: I would just like to respond to his submission.

6 JUDGE LIU: As concise as possible.

7 MS. SINATRA: Yes, sir. What I see is that of course Mr. Jokic is

8 innocent until proven guilty, so there may not ever be an opportunity to

9 present a Defence expert witness in this trial, which I would hope would

10 be the case. Second of all, the Trial Chamber has rightly said that now

11 the Defence, once they filed their objections to intercepts, after the

12 final witness would be allowed to supplement this -- these objections to

13 intercepts with another written submission. I would ask the Court maybe

14 to reserve their decision on the admission of this evidence until you read

15 the further submissions of the Defence regarding the further evidence that

16 we have received since we've filed our objections to the intercept. And I

17 believe that the Trial Chamber has given us orally an opportunity to

18 respond to this last witness.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I could be -- could briefly be

20 heard also on this issue --

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't want to open Pandora's box.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: We're not, Your Honour. But what -- it affects, it

23 affects me, too. Rulings do in fact do affect us as well. Directly

24 commenting on Mr. McCloskey's remarks. First and foremost, I think the

25 tape may be relevant because it may go to the weight. I know that issue

Page 6077

1 is still open, whether the -- all these notebooks come in. But it does

2 assist in giving -- to the issue of weight.

3 Now, Mr. McCloskey is quite correct that perhaps this was not the

4 best witness to get this piece of evidence in; however, be that as it may

5 the issue was still pending and therefor is still ripe and the request

6 being made by Ms. Sinatra is not at all untimely in my opinion. Also, we

7 did have the benefit from this particular expert, if we could call him

8 that, in intercepts to say that there was a distinction. And I think his

9 comments in relation to that particular tape are also very helpful. I

10 think the -- I agree with Mr. McCloskey, it's already in evidence in the

11 sense that we heard about it. However, since the issue is under

12 consideration and it goes to the weight and at some point it may be

13 necessary for the Court to re-listen to the tape, I think that the request

14 is not only reasonable but it's also timely. And I think it does have

15 some probative value.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, after my discussions with my colleagues and

18 hearing the submissions by the parties, we believe that Ms. Sinatra has

19 established the relevance and the probative value to this piece of the

20 documents. Of course we understand that the Defence did not ask for the

21 translation of the contents of this piece of the evidence into the

22 language that we understand. She just wanted to show a kind of comparison

23 and the quality of the tapes. So in this way, this Trial Chamber decided

24 to have it admitted into the evidence as a document D61/3, only for the

25 purpose of comparison of the quality of the tapes. It is so decided.

Page 6078

1 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Just to clarify. Is that

3 exhibit just the three-minute section or was it the whole tape so we know

4 what we're getting?

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

6 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I have recorded for the Registry

7 here just the one minute and 50 seconds that we played in the courtroom.

8 So it's very brief.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's a very brief part.

10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we get just a copy of that so we know what

11 it is.

12 JUDGE LIU: Of course. I think it's a reasonable request.

13 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour, if I might clarify. It's their

14 Prosecution exhibit that they allowed us to listen to. The first one

15 minute and 50 seconds, tape 1, side A.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

17 Yes.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just to clarify the record, it is not our exhibit.

19 It was something we provided, but just to -- so we are all clear. Thank

20 you.

21 MS. SINATRA: I'll provide a copy for the Prosecution,

22 Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: Sure. That's the right word.

24 Well, I think we'll have the break and we'll resume at 5 minutes

25 to 6.00.

Page 6079

1 --- Recess taken at 5.24 p.m.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, good evening, Witness.

5 THE WITNESS: Good evening, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Would you please stand up and make the solemn

7 declaration, please. I did not get any translation.

8 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

9 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Viada.

14 MR. VIADA: Good evening, Your Honours. Good evening, Defence

15 counsel. This is a witness that asked for some protective measures

16 particularly pseudonym and face distortion.

17 Examined by Mr. Viada:

18 Q. Witness, if you could have a look at this paper and tell us if

19 your name is written on it, but not tell your name out loud.

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Are you currently serving in the Royal Dutch Army?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What was your rank when you were in the army?

24 A. 1st lieutenant.

25 Q. Did you serve in the Srebrenica enclave with the Dutch Battalion?

Page 6080

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. When did you arrive in the enclave?

3 A. In January 1995.

4 Q. Moving on to the days before the fall of Srebrenica, what were --

5 who were your duties in the previous days to the fall of Srebrenica?

6 A. I was part of the Recce Platoon which was attached to the

7 Dutch Battalion in the enclave.

8 Q. Where were you located?

9 A. In Potocari at the main compound.

10 Q. The day before the fall of Srebrenica, what were your jobs at that

11 moment?

12 A. I was on an observation near Srebrenica just on the east side, and

13 observing to the south the movements of the Bosnian Serb troops.

14 Q. Until which day did you remain at that place?

15 A. That was until the day before the enclave fell, actually.

16 Q. And why did you leave the observation?

17 A. Because I wasn't able to do my job there, and the pressure was

18 very high. And we got held back to the compound.

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please pause between question

20 and answer.

21 MR. VIADA: Yes, of course. Sorry.

22 Q. When you say that the pressure was very high, what do you mean?

23 A. That the Bosnian Serb army was already entering Srebrenica from

24 the south, and we were not able to monitor anything from the east. So we

25 were at a very vulnerable location.

Page 6081

1 Q. And where did you go then?

2 A. We went back to the main compound, Potocari.

3 Q. Did you continue in Potocari that day -- sorry. I have to go

4 back. At what time did you go back to Potocari?

5 A. That was the night before the actual falling of the enclave.

6 Q. What time, approximately?

7 A. I -- it was at night. I can't remember. It was late.

8 Q. Late.

9 A. Like after 11.00 in the evening.

10 Q. So that night did you sleep or did you continue on duty?

11 A. We left the observation post, and we also left some people behind.

12 We were negotiating first to get them from that location.

13 Q. When you arrived to Potocari, did you continue doing the same job

14 that you were doing before?

15 A. Yes, up until a certain point.

16 Q. Why? Could you be more precise with this. Why did you stop doing

17 that?

18 A. The next day we got told to stop controlling aircraft on targets,

19 otherwise the people, the Dutch army people who were taken from the

20 observation post around the enclave, especially from the south, they said

21 they are going to kill them one by one.

22 Q. Who told you that?

23 A. That came via -- from the commander of the Dutch Battalion.

24 Q. So who were those soldiers that were sentenced with death?

25 A. Those were the soldiers that were taken from the OPs, who were

Page 6082

1 captured the week before in the south.

2 Q. You mentioned in your -- in the proofing, proofing session, one

3 name of the person who conveyed that message to the Dutch Battalion. Do

4 you remember that name?

5 A. Yes. As far as I got it -- I say I didn't get it from the

6 commander directly, it was Colonel Nikolic.

7 Q. Do you know who is that Colonel Nikolic?

8 A. No, I couldn't make a face with that.

9 Q. And what happened then after you were ordered to stop doing this

10 job that you were doing before?

11 A. After that, the -- actually we kept the aircraft at a safe

12 distance. And it went real quick after that that the enclave really fell.

13 And we were taking refugees on the compound and we were, you know, trying

14 to get hold of the situation. It was a big chaos.

15 Q. Can you tell the Judges at what time approximately did the

16 refugees start to arrive to the United Nations compound?

17 A. They arrived pretty early in the surrounding, but they wouldn't

18 let up -- on the compound. And it started with the wounded. And after

19 that, I can't remember exactly times it started happening. And they were

20 making -- they were actually splitting in urgency who was getting in the

21 compound and who was put in the buildings, the industrial buildings, close

22 to the compound.

23 Q. Approximately how many refugees would you estimate were present in

24 and around the compound at Potocari?

25 A. Then I have to make a real estimation. It might be 15.000.

Page 6083

1 Q. Is that your estimation?

2 A. That's an estimation, yes.

3 Q. Can you estimate, what is the percentage of those refugees -- what

4 percentage of those refugees were women and children?

5 A. I cannot estimate that, no. But I know that most men left in the

6 hills to the west of Srebrenica town.

7 Q. And so, what is your estimation? Were there more women or more

8 men?

9 A. I can't remember if it was really actually more men and women.

10 That's ...

11 Q. Did you have any commitment with regards to the civilians at that

12 moment?

13 A. Can you explain that question, please.

14 Q. Yes. Did you have some kind of orders regarding the situation

15 with the civilians at that particular moment just after the refugees were

16 arriving?

17 A. Yes. We did not really interfere with them. We -- they were held

18 in the compound, but we were in a separate part of the compound with our

19 unit. So we didn't really interfere with the refugees at that time.

20 Q. Why were there refugees out the compound, the compound limit, I

21 mean?

22 A. Outside the compound limit?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Because there were too many refugees according to the surface of

25 the compound area.

Page 6084

1 Q. There was no room then?

2 A. No, not at all.

3 Q. What happened next?

4 A. Next was that the enclave actually fell. The first soldiers from

5 the Bosnian Serb army entered the enclave, and we saw them walking to the

6 enclave relaxed. I think the decision was already made at that point.

7 And the next time I remember there was a delegation led into the compound

8 to look for war criminals under the Bosnian refugees on the compound.

9 Q. Did you accompany that delegation?

10 A. No, no, sir.

11 Q. And after that what happened?

12 A. After that, we got orders -- or we heard that there was an

13 agreement made to transport all refugees out of the compound to the west.

14 We didn't know where exactly at that time. And we were ordered to escort

15 them by car.

16 Q. How were these people going to be transported?

17 A. They were transported by, I think, every vehicle that was

18 available in the area, so buses, trucks, everything you can imagine that

19 holds more than --

20 Q. How many buses, approximate, were there?

21 A. I can't answer that question, because there were buses coming in

22 and going out and coming back. But the whole road in front of the

23 compound was filled with trucks, buses.

24 Q. Did the buses enter the compound?

25 A. No. They stayed on the road outside.

Page 6085

1 Q. Did you see the Muslim people getting on those buses and trucks?

2 A. Yes. At first they were very scared, of course, to get out of the

3 compound, and after that they were entering -- or actually, leading or

4 being led to the buses to get taken out of the enclave.

5 Q. Who was leading the people to go on to the buses?

6 A. There were several people doing that and -- actually, the elderly

7 and the women, they were led on the buses directly. And the men were

8 taken to the white house just across the road of the entrance of the

9 compound.

10 Q. Was there some kind of commander or something like that who was in

11 command of these people, soldiers I mean?

12 A. At that moment I cannot remember, at that moment. It was starting

13 up the whole process and it was very hard. It was a big chaos. There was

14 a lot of panic among the people. And we from DutchBat didn't know what

15 was happening at the time also.

16 Q. You said that women and the elderly were allowed to go on to the

17 buses and the men were separated and led to another place?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I would like to show you, with the help of the usher, an exhibit

20 that has been admitted into evidence and is Prosecution 2.6. Do you

21 recognise the house depicted in this photograph?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Is that the house you were referring to?

24 A. That's the house across the entrance of the compound.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

Page 6086


2 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I might just -- it's almost

3 comical. There's a big sign that says "white house" on the photo. A

4 blind person can see that label on top of the house. It is so suggestive.

5 I don't know what to make of it at this point, but frankly, I don't think

6 that this identification means anything. We're not disputing that there

7 was a white house, we're not disputing that men were taken to the white

8 house. But I do think if we're going to be showing witnesses these sorts

9 of documents, we don't put a big label on it, "white house," in yellow

10 actually, so it sticks out and say, Is this the house? That's my comment,

11 Your Honour.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you for your comment.

13 Do you have another photo without any labels or from different

14 angles?

15 MR. VIADA: I'm afraid I have no other photo right now, but --

16 JUDGE LIU: I see. Maybe you could find another one overnight and

17 show this to this witness tomorrow. You may proceed.

18 MR. VIADA: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. How were these men being treated?

20 A. They were just led to the -- to that white house across the

21 street, and DutchBat also agreed that people from our unit were allowed to

22 go in there to monitor that which happened.

23 Q. Did you see -- did you recall some kind of -- something wrong?

24 A. At the beginning, no.

25 Q. But later on?

Page 6087

1 A. Later on I have seen one guy got beaten up in the bus pretty bad,

2 and that's the only thing I have seen.

3 Q. Do you know whether the men who were in the houses left -- I mean

4 in the house, left at any point?

5 A. It was very hard to predict, but there were also buses in front of

6 the white house and they were loaded with men.

7 Q. Did you have any commitment with those refugees during the

8 evacuation agreed before?

9 A. As I said, we were ordered to transport the convoys of the buses

10 out -- to take the refugees out of the enclave.

11 Q. The same day?

12 A. The same day.

13 Q. So how was the escort of the buses organised?

14 A. Also a little bit chaotic. It was very hard to tell how many

15 would you says were in the convoy and left without telling us. So we

16 really had to look real good and follow the buses that were going out of

17 the enclave.

18 Q. So what were the masses that were taken by your commanders in

19 order to organise this evacuation, this escort, of the buses?

20 A. They put us on a stand-by next to the road and as soon as buses

21 left, we followed them.

22 Q. What were your instructions regarding the evacuation?

23 A. Just to follow the buses and, as I told, there were so many buses.

24 We didn't have enough cars to provide enough security for the convoy. We

25 were able to only escort with one car. So it was more a -- to give a good

Page 6088

1 feeling for the refugees that there would be UN soldiers with the convoy

2 when they were led out of the enclave.

3 Q. So as I understand there was only one car for one convoy?

4 A. It ended up with only one car per one convoy.

5 Q. Did you personally escort any of these convoys, the first convoy.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Who ordered you to do that?

8 A. That was -- we were ordered by the -- via the battalion commander,

9 by my boss.

10 Q. How many vehicles, approximately, did the convoy that you escorted

11 consist of?

12 A. As far as I remember, it was about eight buses.

13 Q. Eight buses. And where was your car escorting --

14 A. Yeah, we were driving right behind the convoy, behind the last

15 bus.

16 Q. I would like you -- I would like to show you another exhibit,

17 admitted into evidence already, it is P20.1. It is a map. Could you show

18 the Judges on the map the route that you took out of Potocari that day.

19 A. We drove from Potocari to Bratunac, and there we took a left to

20 the west and drove north of the enclave. And then up to the south to

21 Milici, Vlasenica, up till as far as I remember it was the Luke area.

22 And what we saw or what we heard is that the refugees were led out of the

23 buses and they had to walk 10 to 15 kilometres.

24 Q. How long did it take to travel?

25 A. I can't remember it exactly, but it took a lot longer than we

Page 6089

1 thought.

2 Q. Did you see if there were men among the people you were escorting?

3 A. Yes, but only elderly.

4 Q. Okay. After the people were allowed to go, what did you do then?

5 A. Yeah, we didn't know what was the next thing to happen, so we

6 drove back on the road to Potocari.

7 Q. What time approximately did you return to the compound in

8 Potocari?

9 A. Again, that is hard to remember. It was in July and it was

10 already dark when we arrived, so it must be around midnight. It was late.

11 Q. What did you do then?

12 A. The convoys were --

13 Q. No, no, I mean that night --

14 A. Yes, the convoys were not driving that night, so we were not

15 escorting them also. So we had to wait for the next morning to continue.

16 Q. What did you have to do the next day?

17 A. The next day we had the same task, to escort the convoys.

18 Q. Did you have vehicles, because you said before that you had not

19 enough vehicles to escort the -- otherwise the situation was better or

20 worse at the moment?

21 A. It was about the same.

22 Q. The same.

23 A. The overall situation was a little bit better because we knew what

24 was going on at that moment.

25 Q. Did you just escort another convoy this day?

Page 6090

1 A. That was the next day, yeah.

2 Q. I mean the next day.

3 A. It was the day after when I arrived back at midnight at the

4 compound.

5 Q. Okay. And can you tell us what happened with the next escort that

6 you helped with?

7 A. Yes. We were also stand-by on the road of the compound. We were

8 waiting, and actually it was -- there were buses loading with men -- or

9 elderly men and women. But at the same time two buses with men were

10 leaving from the parking area in front of the white house. So I called my

11 boss to ask him to follow which bus, which group of buses. And they

12 ordered me to follow the two buses with the men.

13 Q. Did you see the process of filling these two buses?

14 A. Yes. It happened in front of us, but there was no significant

15 things going on at that time.

16 Q. You said that you served [sic] some kind of an incident with a man

17 who was beaten?

18 A. Yes, it was all at the end --

19 Q. Not at the moment?

20 A. No.

21 Q. How were the Muslim men on the buses treated?

22 A. They were all real quite and they looked scared.

23 Q. They looked scared. Did they have any reason to be scared?

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

25 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I'm sorry, that calls for speculation

Page 6091

1 on the part of the witness. He can observe what they're doing but now

2 he's asking for a speculation on the part of, Did they have any reason to

3 be scared.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I believe so.

5 MR. VIADA: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll try to say it another

6 way.

7 Q. Did you see personally any violence or mistreatment against any of

8 those men?

9 A. No, sir.

10 Q. What were your orders regarding these buses?

11 A. To follow those buses.

12 Q. How many members of the Dutch Battalion were with you?

13 A. Just one.

14 Q. And only one United Nations vehicle?

15 A. Yes, only one UN vehicle.

16 Q. Did you see Bosnian Serb soldiers in the buses?

17 A. Yes. There were -- with every bus, there was at least one at each

18 door.

19 Q. With what action were these buses travelling?

20 A. Initially they were going the same way, and up until the

21 intersection in Bratunac they were going straight instead to go -- they

22 didn't go left to the west as the other convoy did the night before.

23 Q. Could I show you, with the help of Mr. Usher, an exhibit that has

24 been marked with P677.

25 Can you take the pointer and point to the Judges the normal route

Page 6092

1 that the buses leaving Potocari should have taken.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

3 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I'm going to re-urge

4 Mr. Karnavas's objection that there can be no independent identification

5 of the area he's talking about when everything is already marked and

6 explained to him. If he's going to identify anything on the map, it

7 shouldn't be labelled -- pre-labelled by the Prosecution as to the areas

8 that he is supposed to identify. And if he is -- if he's marked this

9 document at another time, it would be better as evidence in this Trial

10 Chamber that he independently marked it here in front of the Trial Chamber

11 instead of -- who knows what the circumstances were during the proofing

12 session. A clean copy of this map without labels and for this --

13 identification purposes for these witnesses would be preferred.

14 JUDGE LIU: But I believe that we used this map before many, many

15 times and witnesses marked such maps during the proofing session. There's

16 no objections from the Defence part, so we let this practice go. And now

17 we don't know the purpose for the Prosecution to use this map. So we'll

18 see where the Prosecution is going to lead us.

19 You may proceed, Mr. Viada.

20 MR. VIADA: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. I'm asking again, could you take the pointer and point the normal

22 route that the bus leaving Potocari should have taken.

23 A. The normal route was out from Potocari, they were driving to the

24 north, and took the intersection to the west, to the road north of the

25 enclave.

Page 6093

1 Q. And which was the direction that this bus -- these buses with men

2 took?

3 A. Initially he put on his blinker at one of the intersections to

4 take the normal route. And -- but he continued straight. And I cannot

5 remember the exact route he took, because we took kind of a detour through

6 Bratunac. It looked like they -- at that time they discovered that they

7 were being followed.

8 Q. The other day in our office you put a mark on this exhibit. You

9 can see this circle. What does -- what is the meaning of that circle?

10 A. Both buses stopped at this location in a corner in front of the

11 big, big building.

12 Q. What kind of a building was it where the buses stopped?

13 A. It was a school building -- it looked like a school building. It

14 wasn't confirmed by me, because as far as I remember there were no signs

15 on it. But it had big windows with glass inside.

16 Q. What happened then?

17 A. There were soldiers on the street in that vicinity, and then the

18 buses stopped. The men were -- they stayed in the buses. And one soldier

19 who was at that location at that time came up to our vehicle and told us

20 that it was better to leave.

21 Q. Was it friendly conversation or was it some kind of argument?

22 A. No, not at all. It was a very friendly conversation.

23 Q. Was it only one -- did you say soldier or man?

24 A. That was a -- I can't remember his rank, but he was in military

25 clothes and had an AK47.

Page 6094

1 Q. Only one soldier?

2 A. There was only one soldier approaching our vehicles, but there

3 were more in the area.

4 Q. You could see?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what did you do?

7 A. I did ask him why he wanted us to leave, and he said, It's just

8 better to leave. Then I called my boss at that location. We still had

9 coms with the headquarters and I did ask him what to do. And he told me,

10 If the situation -- or he did ask me if the situation was threatening or

11 not. And at that moment, it was not threatening at all so we had to stay.

12 Q. And so you stayed there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What happened then?

15 A. At that moment, or after that, I think a couple of minutes, a --

16 two civilian vehicles arrived with people in military clothes. And I was

17 just about to call my boss again, but I -- they pulled the microphone out

18 of my hand, pulled the keys out of the car, and ordered us to step out of

19 the vehicle.

20 Q. Did you see the soldier that first told you that it was better for

21 you to go phone him -- phone the others, I mean?

22 A. No, I haven't seen any communication that way.

23 Q. Okay. What happened then?

24 A. We were taken on the civilian cars and brought to what I think was

25 a police station.

Page 6095

1 Q. Did you have weapons at that moment?

2 A. No, we didn't have weapons at that moment.

3 Q. Were you pointed at with weapons to do that?

4 A. No. The guys were -- they were threatening. They weren't saying

5 anything. They just literally pulled us out of the car, and there were

6 about six of them. So we didn't start anything to avoid that.

7 Q. Okay. You said that you were led to the police station.

8 A. It looked like a police station.

9 Q. How did the people who were at the police station dressed?

10 A. In both civilian and military clothes.

11 Q. Were many people --

12 A. Yes, it was busy at that moment.

13 Q. How long did you spend there?

14 A. We had to wait in a room or in a hallway for a while. I cannot

15 remember how long. Then we were taken into an office and they asked us a

16 couple of questions, what we were doing at that location and why did we

17 follow the buses. And to me it looked like they were not -- they didn't

18 know really what to do with us. So it took maybe two or three hours that

19 we were at that location.

20 Q. Two or three hours. And when were you eventually released?

21 A. After we were asked the questions, they led us out again. And

22 there was a lot of talking going on in Serbo-Croatian. And we ended up

23 being brought back by two people in civilian, in a very small car.

24 Q. Why -- why did you not come back with your vehicle, with your own

25 vehicle?

Page 6096

1 A. We weren't allowed to take our own vehicle and all the equipment

2 we had with us.

3 Q. What kind of equipment did you have with you?

4 A. At that moment it was just the military clothing, besides your

5 trousers, shoes, tee shirt, and that was -- the equipment which was on the

6 vehicle.

7 Q. So how did you get back to the compound?

8 A. We were brought back in a civilian car, like a little sastava

9 with two men dressed in civilian, and they dropped us off at the gate of

10 the compound.

11 Q. So did they provide you a vehicle to come back?

12 A. They drove it. They were on their way to Srebrenica they

13 told.

14 Q. So after this event, do you know what happened to the men who were

15 in the buses you attempted to escort?

16 A. No. At the time we were there, they stayed on the buses and I

17 haven't seen anything else.

18 Q. What time was that?

19 A. At the time we were at that location until we -- the time the bus

20 stopped until we were taken out of our cars and led to the police station,

21 nothing happened to the men in the buses.

22 Q. But what was the time when -- what was the particular hour, the

23 day, the afternoon, that this happened?

24 A. I have to estimate that, but I think it was around noon.

25 Q. Around noon. Okay. You are back in the compound and what

Page 6097

1 happened?

2 A. Yes. First we were led out of the car. And in front of the

3 compound it was a little bit more organised, leading people to the buses.

4 And we wanted to enter the compound, but we were not allowed to by the

5 commander who was organising the whole transport.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please speak into the

7 microphone.

8 MR. VIADA: Sure, excuse me.

9 Q. You said that one commander didn't allow you to enter the

10 compound?

11 A. Yes. He put us in front of the compound and we had two guards,

12 and they pointed with AK47s at us at that moment. And he ordered them to

13 keep us there.

14 Q. Approximately what time was that?

15 A. That was around 3.00 or 4.00 in the afternoon.

16 Q. What was the rank of that commander?

17 A. I cannot remember, but what I remember it was the same person that

18 normally was at the entrance post of the enclave when we entered or went

19 there for negotiation.

20 Q. Do you know what was the name of that major -- I'm sorry, of that

21 commander?

22 A. Yes. I know that it was Major Nikolic.

23 Q. How can you remember that?

24 A. Because I -- he was always at the entrance point of the enclave

25 when there was an appointment there.

Page 6098

1 Q. Okay. Finally what happened? Were you able to come -- to enter

2 the compound or not?

3 A. Yes. After about an hour they let us go and we went back on the

4 compound.

5 Q. And what happened then?

6 A. We just got another car and hooked up with the convoy again.

7 Q. How many buses did this convoy consist of?

8 A. There were about -- they were getting a lot smaller because most

9 of it was already out of the enclave. So it was, as far as I remember,

10 only four or five buses.

11 Q. And what happened with this second --

12 A. First of all, we were waiting in front of the compound for the

13 next convoy to leave. And we saw a brand new Mercedes all-terrain vehicle

14 passing in front of us with very well-dressed military people in it, and

15 they were looking at our car. And as soon as the buses left, we went

16 after them. And after about 500 metres, the grey Mercedes vehicle was

17 standing on the road with its hood open, and one guy was waving that their

18 car broke down. And as soon as we -- we had to stop because he was

19 blocking the road. We got, again, pulled out of our vehicles. This time

20 I had a gun on my head, and I was pulled out of my vehicle and everything

21 was taken off again. That's about it.

22 Q. Do you know what happened with that -- with this second convoy?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And do you remember that convoy was composed of vehicles loaded

25 with men or women?

Page 6099

1 A. I cannot clearly remember that.

2 Q. What happened with your vehicle?

3 A. The guys that pulled us out of the vehicle left with the vehicle.

4 Q. Was your vehicle the only one that was stolen that day, apart from

5 the other one and that you had that morning?

6 A. No. I think we were losing vehicles with a lot of convoys.

7 MR. VIADA: Your Honour, I think I have no further questions.


9 Mr. Karnavas.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Just a few questions, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: So we can get the gentleman hopefully out of here.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:

14 Q. Good afternoon, sir. You mentioned Major Nikolic. Now, from

15 listening to your narration, it was my understanding that we're speaking

16 about the 13th of July; is that correct?

17 A. I cannot remember the exact date.

18 Q. Okay. Well, that would have been the second day as opposed to the

19 first day when the buses started leaving?

20 A. Yes. The first day was only in the evening, end of the afternoon.

21 So it was the second day.

22 Q. So if the first day was the 12th, then the second day would have

23 been the 13th?

24 A. That would be correct if that's --

25 Q. It's your understanding that it was between -- it was around 3.00

Page 6100

1 to 4.00 in the afternoon when you got back to the compound, and that's

2 when Nikolic decided to -- was acting up the way he did, the way you've

3 described?

4 A. Yes, sir.

5 Q. Now, you called him a "commander." You don't know, in fact, that

6 he was in command, do you?

7 A. No, but I based that on the fact that he was organising the

8 situation there. And according to the first situation, the first convoys,

9 it was organised at that time.

10 Q. Okay. Now, do you speak Serbo-Croatian?

11 A. No, sir.

12 Q. So you don't know what he was saying?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Do you know to whom he was -- to who he was speaking?

15 A. He was talking to the --

16 Q. Soldiers --

17 A. Or actually, shouting at the two soldiers.

18 Q. Well, was he -- during that period on the 12th and the 13th, there

19 were Colonels, Lieutenant Colonels, from the various units, including the

20 corps. Were you aware -- was it your understanding that he was commanding

21 them as well?

22 A. No, sir.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions. Thank you very much,

24 sir.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Sinatra.

Page 6101

1 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour. I have no questions for this

2 witness but I do have an objection that I need to launch at this point, if

3 the Court will allow me. We have no questions, but based on the proofing

4 notes and the documents that the Prosecution has provided us today, which

5 are ERN numbers -- well, the ERN number 03454898, I want to launch an

6 objection because the circumstances and the methods used by the Prosecutor

7 to interview their witnesses are clearly highly prejudicial and affect the

8 rights of Mr. Jokic to be presumed innocent and to -- under Article 20 and

9 21, when the witnesses that they're interviewing go by what's equivalent

10 to a mugshot and articles and photographs of the accused on the wall in

11 the areas where they're being interviewed, I think it's highly

12 prejudicial, I think it's improper interview techniques and they should be

13 remedied. If they're going to interview a witness before he testifies

14 they should remove these documents from the wall or make sure that there's

15 no highly suggestive photographs such as mugshots of the accused. I think

16 it's improper and something should be done about it before the next

17 witness is interviewed.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, we need some explanations from the side of the

19 Prosecution.

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. As the -- I believe the

21 proofing notes show, this witness, like many witnesses, was brought in to

22 an office just to go over things. And on the office wall, pictures have

23 been provided to the Defence. There happened to be a picture of a few of

24 the accused, and this witness recognised one of them. I don't see any

25 problem in that. I don't see any prejudicial effect of it. There hasn't

Page 6102

1 been anything brought out prejudicial to this witness. I don't, frankly,

2 understand the allegation. There's nothing -- nobody's been prejudiced by

3 this in any way. I don't understand what the problem is.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, I think we received a bunch of

5 the documents with an article, the photos attached to that. And during

6 the direct examination, Mr. Viada did not ask any questions concerning of

7 this document. If you are not going to use this document, why provide us

8 with those documents? I think this action alone could be regarded as

9 prejudicial against the other side. So that's why we need an explanation

10 on that.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, I -- Your Honour, I think the explanation is

12 simple. I can let Mr. Viada do it. I think he just forgot. But I think

13 he can ask, because we -- the reason that these photographs were provided

14 to the Defence was so that it would be completely clear how this witness

15 who spoke of a person in his interviews that he didn't know what the name

16 was, and we did not show him any line-up or anything. It was -- but when

17 he walked through the office, he saw the picture of one of them, of

18 Mr. Nikolic, and said, Yeah, that's the man. Now, that -- we meant to

19 bring that out in direct testimony, and I think just because of the late

20 date and things, it was overlooked. But we can ask Mr. Viada about that.

21 And I know he meant to, that's why these exhibits were here. He wanted to

22 be completely open about how this happened and what it was all about. And

23 I think, like I think all of us have done, sometimes we look down and we

24 realise there's exhibits we've forgotten. But Mr. Viada can speak to that

25 himself, I'm sure.

Page 6103

1 JUDGE LIU: And before that, I should tend to Ms. Sinatra.

2 MS. SINATRA: Thank you, Your Honour. For clarification of the

3 record, the witness did not identify one of the accused in this courtroom.

4 He identified someone who is no longer an accused in this trial. And what

5 I'm trying to prevent is that this does not happen again and interfere and

6 prejudice the testimony of another OTP witness before he's allowed to

7 testify in this courtroom. But the witness -- the articles -- one of the

8 accused was not identified, but someone else was. And I think this is

9 highly prejudicial for them to use these interviewing tactics with these

10 photographs and these mugshots and these articles pasted on their wall.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

12 Mr. Viada, if you want to ask some questions about those photos,

13 you may.

14 MR. VIADA: Sure, Your Honour.

15 Further examination by Mr. Viada:

16 Q. Witness, last day in my office you recognised a person, identified

17 an officer, in our office. Can you tell us how this happened?

18 A. Well, first of all I was interviewed in the first interview which

19 was I think one and a half, two months ago. And we -- I talked about a

20 person which I couldn't remember the name of. And the second interview,

21 which was on the date we were talking about, the -- I was fighting with

22 the same name, but I couldn't remember the name. And I was being asked if

23 I would recognise him from a picture. And I said that I -- yes, I think

24 so. Because I have seen the man several times at the OP. And right when

25 I walked into that office, I saw a picture on the wall, which I clearly

Page 6104

1 identified him on.

2 Q. How did this happen? Were you led to those clippings or were we

3 on a break in our proofing session?

4 A. No, we were on a break. I was just looking on the walls,

5 actually.

6 Q. So I would like, with the help of Mr. Usher, to show you an

7 exhibit that has been marked 682. Is that the press clipping?

8 A. Yes, sir.

9 Q. That you identified the other day?

10 A. Yes.

11 MR. VIADA: I have no further questions about this, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, at this stage -- yes, Mr. Viada.

13 MR. VIADA: Excuse me, Your Honour. Yes. Perhaps it should be

14 useful to show also the Exhibit 683, the -- we need the perspective of the

15 room in which the proofing session took place. And tell the witness -- I

16 would like to ask the witness if this is the shape of the wall.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


19 Q. At the moment you recognised the photograph?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And I would like to, also with the help of Mr. Usher, to show all

22 the rest of these papers --

23 MS. SINATRA: Your Honour, I'm going to object to him showing all

24 these photographs again. They were not shown to him in the proper

25 environment. Now he's on a fishing expedition. Our objection is that

Page 6105

1 this is improper interviewing techniques and highly suggestive to have

2 these articles in the area where the witness can see them. And now he's

3 going to show them all of them. If he's going to do that, I have one

4 question: If he's going to show him all of the documents which I think is

5 highly improper. If he wants to show the situation in front of the

6 copying machine, that's one thing. If he wants him to identify the one

7 person that he identified, that's another thing. But he did not identify

8 anybody else on the wall. This is just for future interviewing

9 techniques, that it's improper and should not happen again.

10 JUDGE LIU: I quite understand your objection.

11 Well, if there's objections from the Defence and the witness did

12 not recognise any other persons than the person on the photo you just

13 showed to this witness, I don't think it's necessary to continue this

14 procedure.

15 MR. VIADA: I agree with you, Your Honour, but I would like to

16 explain that the circumstances in which these clippings were recognised by

17 the witness was absolutely accidental. These clippings were in our office

18 for a long, long time, and no one could pay attention at this particular

19 moment about these circumstances. Even the witness on the break took the

20 direction to the clippings instead of going out, which is perfectly

21 normal, but these are things that happen. Of course this witness wasn't

22 brought here, hasn't been brought here in order to recognise anybody. The

23 thing is, when he said, Okay, this is the person I met in Potocari that

24 day, we thought in order to be honest with the Defence to say that.

25 Because there was no purpose for this witness to recognise nobody. He had

Page 6106

1 to tell a story. This is something we wanted to explain to the

2 Trial Chamber, because this is -- I can see the relevance of this

3 objection, because -- I mean, there is nothing prejudicial against

4 anything with this particular issue, from my point of view, of course.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well -- but I believe that the Prosecution should bear

6 the objections from Defence counsel in mind. This kind of practice could

7 not be allowed. In the domestic jurisdictions, the interrogation room or

8 the interview room should be completely clean, without any pictures,

9 photos, which might be suggestive to this case. So I think this should be

10 a warning to you, and in the future to the Defence team that when you are

11 proofing a witness, there should be no pictures, maps, documents, or these

12 kind of things unless, unless, you have some purpose in that proofing

13 session.

14 MR. VIADA: I understand, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: So I hope you could bear that in mind in the future.

16 MR. VIADA: Thank you.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, that is my responsibility, and I

19 completely understand and take the objection. And it will not happen

20 again. We will not have a witness in the investigative room again. I can

21 promise you that. It was just one of those things.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. And I also hope Defence counsel

23 could take this action and the statement from the Prosecution with the

24 bona fide.

25 Yes.

Page 6107

1 MR. KARNAVAS: We do, Your Honour, we do. On behalf of our team

2 here, we do realise it was an accident. And I'm sure that it won't happen

3 again. So we do accept their explanation.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

5 Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

6 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour, we also accept the -- not

7 apologies, but the explanation of the Prosecution, we just don't want it

8 to happen again. Thank you.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much indeed. Is there any redirect on

10 the part of the Prosecution?

11 MR. VIADA: No, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

13 At this stage, are there any documents to tender into the

14 evidence. Mr. Viada?

15 MR. VIADA: Yes, Your Honour. We would like to tender the

16 Exhibit P677 and P684.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

18 Any objections, Mr. Karnavas?

19 MR. KARNAVAS: No objections, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

21 Ms. Sinatra.

22 MS. SINATRA: I can't see the markings, but I assume they're the

23 maps and we have no objections.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

25 So these two documents are admitted into the evidence. And P684

Page 6108

1 under seal.

2 Well thank you very much, Witness, for coming here to give your

3 evidence. When the usher pulls down the blinds, he will show you out of

4 the room. We wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, do we have another witness for

8 this year?

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Your Honour. We were conservative because of

10 our problem with time on the next day. So we do not have anymore for this

11 year.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. And I hope you could furnish

13 with us and the other party for the witnesses when we resume next year,

14 the witness list.

15 Yes, Ms. Sinatra.

16 MS. SINATRA: Yes, Your Honour, I'm really sorry, I won't hold up

17 the staff any longer. But I just wanted to say I will not be appearing in

18 the case any longer. I wanted to thank this wonderful Trial Chamber. I

19 think you're fair, astute, and the best Trial Chamber I've ever been

20 before. My client, Mr. Jokic, for having faith in me; Mr. Stojanovic, and

21 everybody else. And I -- it's been just an honour to be a part of history

22 in the making and I appreciate being here. The Prosecution has been a

23 delight to work with also. And all of the Registry, I just wanted to wish

24 you all a Happy New Year and a Merry Christmas, and thank you.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much. I must say that we are

Page 6109

1 sorry to see you leaving this case and everybody working in the Tribunal,

2 their work should be recognised. We appreciate your assistance and

3 contribution to this Tribunal, especially to this case. I believe we will

4 miss you, and sometimes your timely intervention and submissions are very

5 helpful, at least to keep our eyes wide open. And I wish you a Merry

6 Christmas and bright future when you come back to your State. Thank you.

7 MS. SINATRA: Thank you very much.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I think there is a housekeeping matter that we

9 have received submission from the Prosecution about Mr. -- I think three

10 witness statements they are filing in accordance with 92 bis. We haven't

11 received any response from the Defence.

12 So could I hear from the Defence whether there's any objections to

13 the three witnesses which are Erdemovic, Deronjic, and another person.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour, if I could very briefly. I'll

15 start with Mr. Erdemovic. I don't know if you are aware but there is a

16 stack of documents with respect to his previous statements. He has given

17 lots of statements and he's testified on several occasions. Initially my

18 inclination was that we would need him here to testify in light of the

19 language which is in the Prosecution's motion, which is that he did not

20 positively identify Bratunac Brigade soldiers. I think we can all agree

21 that he never does and that we had an admission as well from Mr. Butler to

22 that effect.

23 Before committing myself, I would prefer having the Prosecutor

24 direct me somewhat within -- to what exactly they intend to offer

25 Mr. Erdemovic for. Is it all of his statements or is there a particular

Page 6110

1 segment that they are planning on making reference to in their final

2 argument or their case in-chief. Otherwise, I need to read the entire --

3 all of those statements to see if there might be something in there that

4 they could possibly use. And so I don't want to concede at this point,

5 but perhaps I can get together with Mr. McCloskey and talk about this and

6 reach some sort of an agreement. Other than that, I will need some time

7 to read all those documents carefully again, and I must confess I have not

8 read his statement or his testimony from the Milosevic case, because we

9 were somewhat busy with other matters.

10 With respect to Deronjic, as I understand, as long as Mr. Deronjic

11 is going to be here to be cross-examined, we have no objections to his

12 prior statements and testimony coming in. So I think we can reach an

13 agreement on that.

14 With respect to the other witness, it would be my inclination,

15 Your Honour, in light of what this witness will be testifying to, that we

16 also be afforded the opportunity to cross-examine. I do not anticipate a

17 lengthy cross-examination, but nonetheless I believe that a

18 cross-examination will be required. And I understand he's been

19 cross-examined by others; however, I would rather try my case and do my

20 cross-examination, consistent with our theory of the case. So that's our

21 position. So if I can find some flexibility with Mr. McCloskey, perhaps

22 we can -- we will not need to have Mr. Erdemovic come forward. Because if

23 he does, it will be a lengthy cross-examination in all likelihood, and

24 perhaps not necessarily -- not necessary in the case.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, to save time, I'll turn to Mr. Stojanovic first.

Page 6111

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have

2 to say that for the last five years I've followed everything that

3 Mr. Erdemovic has said, so that after I joined this case I got a different

4 impression about all the testimonies because he was also a citizen of the

5 same town as myself. Erdemovic or Deronjic or the third witness have

6 nothing that touches upon our defence, except for one sentence which is

7 mentioned in Erdemovic's testimony, referring to the expected arrival of

8 certain construction machinery or equipment. As far as our defence is

9 concerned, we would have no problems that all three of these statements be

10 admitted under 92 bis, and we think that at this point we don't believe

11 that we would have any questions for any of these witnesses. In view of,

12 also, what Deronjic stated in his interviews and while declaring his

13 guilty plea -- and I also had the opportunity to read back his testimony

14 in the Milosevic and Nikolic case. So as far as I believe, I don't think

15 that we will need to cross-examine any of those three witnesses.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation.

17 Mr. McCloskey, can you give a very brief response to the requests?

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. Regarding Erdemovic,

19 Mr. Karnavas and I have had a chance to speak briefly. I think we can

20 work this out. Mr. Erdemovic's story has always been the same, and he --

21 and I can tell Mr. Karnavas and the Court that he doesn't -- he never

22 suggests that the men that took part in the executions are from the

23 Bratunac Brigade. He always says that he believes they're from Bratunac,

24 based on what they've said. So that was, I think, Mr. Karnavas's main

25 concern that we've had a chance to speak about. Otherwise, his statements

Page 6112

1 are pretty much the same on -- in his telling of the story. And we can

2 continue to talk about that and see if there's any other issues. Of

3 course it would be best if he had a chance to read this.

4 Regarding Deronjic, he'll be here and we'll have the chance --

5 everyone will have a chance to talk with him.

6 And the other person is a Bosnian, I think she's a psychologist

7 who has testified at length about the victim impact and the impact on the

8 Muslim community of women. And she also has come up and testified, I

9 believe, in another hearing here. And it would be difficult for her to

10 come back. I know that, having been involved in that. And really, this

11 should be what 92 bis is about. But we would stand by our motion for that

12 witness. And the others I think we should be able to work out, no

13 problem.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Could we make a decision now that we admit those

15 three statements into the evidence through the 92 bis. And we leave the

16 opportunity for the parties to discuss whether there's any need from the

17 Defence side to cross-examine those witnesses. It is so decided.

18 And another matter is another witness, W-131, after examining the

19 statement and submissions from the parties we decided the statement of

20 this witness is admitted into the evidence under 92 bis without

21 cross-examination. It is so decided.

22 And we will resume on the 15th of January next year.

23 Yes, Mr. Blagojevic.

24 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 I would just like to turn your attention to my position. I do not wish to

Page 6113

1 be understood here as an object in the most elementary sense without any

2 feelings, without personality, without character, without dignity, without

3 anything. So please, would you consider me as an alive person who is

4 interested in his own situation and his own fate, and a little bit broader

5 than that.

6 Therefore, I do not agree that certain persons can, based on their

7 personal conclusions without any elementary or minimal contact with me,

8 state here questions and discussions about things that have to do with my

9 fate and the fate of my family. That gentleman has placed my fate and the

10 fate of my family out in the clear -- out in the clear, in the field, and

11 we -- he believes now that he can manipulate us the way he wants to. And

12 I believe this cannot stand.

13 As far as this first person is concerned, Erdemovic, he says,

14 well, we have agreed with the Prosecutor. I do not accept that. The

15 Prosecutor states that Erdemovic said that he never said that these were

16 people from the Bratunac Brigade. I said that he did. In one statement

17 that I read, it states that under the pressure of the investigator who was

18 questioning him, he did say clearly that they were people from the

19 Bratunac Brigade. These are falsities because of which I can end up in

20 the manner that I am prepared to finish up, as if I did commit such

21 things. But if not, the gentleman in question cannot hold that in his

22 hands and he cannot manipulate my fate the way he believes he can. I am a

23 little more important than he thinks I am.

24 So please, this indicates the total futility of all of this and

25 everything that is hanging over my head. And I am saying, I am not

Page 6114

1 somebody that you can underestimate. I am not somebody that can be

2 written off in advance, who can be spat on and rejected and put in the

3 garbage. I believe that my dignity, and this will be proved in the end

4 that this is so. I am prepared to bear full responsibility, and this is

5 why I wish for this comfortable, free, irresponsible, fundamentally

6 ill-natured acts towards my personality should stop. And I am please

7 asking for you to protect me. I do not wish to take up any more of your

8 time, and I thank you for listening to me.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Blagojevic, I think the position of the

10 Bench is very clear. And your submissions are registered in the

11 transcript already. We believe that this Bench fully respected your

12 legitimate right in this trial. And we have to do whatever we could to

13 help you to help yourself. We quite understand the situation you are in

14 at this moment, and we will entrust the Defence counsel, Mr. Karnavas,

15 during the break to try his best to approach Mr. Blagojevic and to talk

16 those matters over. And we demand Mr. Karnavas to send us a report in the

17 situation. And we also entrust the Registrar to send a legal officer to

18 discuss with Mr. Blagojevic to understand his situation and to try to help

19 him to follow the instructions this Bench made in our decisions.

20 You may sit down, please.

21 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just one

22 more question, because of this report that you have ordered. I would also

23 like this report to include how far the investigations have gone in the

24 criminal act of cheating for which I am accused of. This is a new charge

25 that I have to bring out here, the act of falsehood, of cheating. This is

Page 6115

1 clear in the decision of the Appeals Chamber. I think this is paragraph

2 46.

3 JUDGE LIU: I see. We will look to it, but frankly speaking, this

4 is the first time for me to hear about this. I promise you that we will

5 look into it.

6 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Unfortunately

7 that's what it states.

8 JUDGE LIU: You may sit down, please.

9 THE ACCUSED BLAGOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think this Bench is very grateful to the

11 interpreters and the technicians working inside this courtroom and outside

12 this courtroom. It's 20 minutes past the limits, and I wish all the

13 persons involved in this case and Mr. Blagojevic and Mr. Jokic a Merry

14 Christmas and a Happy New Year. And we'll resume on January 15th of next

15 year.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

17 at 7.18 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

18 the 15th day of January, 2003