Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7140

1 Thursday, 5 February 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

6 Madam Court Deputy, call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 Good morning, Witness.

11 THE WITNESS: Good morning.

12 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

14 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

17 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Issa.

19 MS. ISSA: Good morning, Your Honour. Thank you.

20 Examined by Ms. Issa:

21 Q. Could you please state your full name for the record, Mr. Manning?

22 A. My full name is Dean Paul Manning.

23 Q. I understand you are currently working as a team leader in the

24 Investigations Team at the ICTY, is that right?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 7141

1 Q. And prior to coming here you worked in Australia?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. What were you doing there?

4 A. Your Honours, I was a member and still am a member of the

5 Australian federal police based in Canberra. I joined in 1993. The

6 majority of my career has been involved in the investigation of serious

7 crimes against persons and property such as murder, rape, armed robbery,

8 serious theft, and serious drug offences.

9 Q. When did you start working at the ICTY?

10 A. I joined the ICTY Srebrenica investigation in August of 1998.

11 Q. And what was your role in the investigation?

12 A. I was an investigator with the Srebrenica team on general

13 investigations. But specifically I was tasked with coordinating the

14 exhumation activities of the team in relation to the Srebrenica-related

15 mass graves and execution points.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Issa, please make a pause since you and the

17 witness speak the same language. There is some difficulties for the

18 interpreters.

19 MS. ISSA: Yes, I will bear that in mind, thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

21 MS. ISSA:

22 Q. Mr. Manning, is -- could you perhaps tell us more specifically

23 what you were doing on the exhumations project.

24 A. Your Honours, the exhumation project had commenced in 1996, before

25 I arrived. I was tasked with reviewing the previous exhumations and then

Page 7142

1 coordinating the investigative efforts in relation to those exhumations

2 and the autopsy efforts at the Visoko morgue. Effectively I attended the

3 exhumation sites along with other investigators and also the mortuary

4 complex. I coordinated other investigators who monitored the exhumations.

5 I attended the morgue and collected evidence. I selected what evidence

6 would be returned to the Tribunal. I returned that evidence to the

7 Tribunal. I also facilitated the return and transfer of bodies to the

8 Bosnian government. I was also required to facilitate the work of the

9 experts employed by the ICTY in relation to those exhumations and to

10 assist them in producing reports for the team and for presentation in

11 court. The activities were basically to coordinate our investigative

12 efforts with the exhumations and autopsy teams and experts.

13 Q. And I understand you prepared a curriculum vitae outlining your

14 background in order to save time?

15 A. Yes, I did.

16 Q. And that is Exhibit 551? I believe it's on your screen. Is that

17 your curriculum vitae, Mr. Manning?

18 A. Yes, it is -- yes, it was. Yes.

19 Q. All right. Thank you.

20 Now, what were the objectives of the exhumation project?

21 A. There were a number of general objectives and clearly specific

22 objectives. One of the objectives was to corroborate and account for the

23 witness or survivor testimonies in relation to the execution sites and

24 mass graves which were detailed by survivors and witnesses. It was to

25 provide a definitive count of the number of victims and also to provide

Page 7143

1 a -- an assessment of cause of death, gender, age, and any other details

2 which could be obtained from the examination of the remains. Also to

3 provide ultimately a number of the bodies represented in the graves and

4 from the execution points. And to identify, if possible, offenders and to

5 identify the victims, if possible.

6 Q. And did you and your team examine evidence found at killing sites

7 that were not mass graves?

8 A. Yes. Specifically two execution points were examined in 1996 by

9 the U.S. Naval investigation service prior to my working at the Tribunal.

10 We also examined other suspected execution sites.

11 Q. [Previous translation continues]... Identify those sites?

12 A. The two sites examined by the U.S. Naval investigations service in

13 1996 were the Pilica Dom to the north of Srebrenica and an agricultural

14 warehouse known as the Kravica warehouse to the south of -- to the -- in

15 the area of Srebrenica near Bratunac.

16 Q. And have you been present during some or all of the exhumations of

17 the mass grave?

18 A. Your Honours, I've attended all the mass grave sites. Obviously

19 the ones exhumed before I commenced duty I attended the site after they

20 had been exhumed. I attended a number of exhumations whilst they were

21 being conducted. And I also attended the execution points of the Pilica

22 Dom and the Kravica warehouse. The Kravica warehouse I have attended on a

23 large number of occasions.

24 Q. Can you indicate what years the exhumations were conducted in in

25 respect of the Srebrenica investigation.

Page 7144

1 A. Exhumations were conducted on four sites in 1996. In 1997 there

2 were no Srebrenica-related exhumations. In 1998, eight sites were

3 exhumed, one primary site and seven secondary sites. 1999, 2000, and

4 2001, exhumations continued, 2001 being the last exhumations conducted by


6 Q. And do I understand, Mr. Manning, that you prepared reports

7 detailing the results of the exhumations that were conducted. Is that

8 correct?

9 A. That's correct. At -- to assist the investigations team and also

10 for presentation in Court, I produced three reports based on the work of

11 the experts involved in the exhumations and autopsy process.

12 Q. And for the record those reports are at Exhibits 552, 553, and 554

13 and they have already been admitted by this Chamber, pursuant to the

14 ruling on November 7th, 2003.

15 Now, Mr. Manning, in addition to your direct experience from the

16 work you've described, what material did you use in preparing your

17 reports?

18 A. As I said, I based my reports on an examination of the expert

19 reports produced including the anthropological, pathology, exhumation and

20 other expert reports. I also examined a large number of documents

21 produced by that work, the autopsy reports, the data collected at

22 exhumation sites, the photographs collected at the exhumations and autopsy

23 process, which were about 65.000 photographs. As I said, I also selected

24 and examined the exhibits produced from the exhumations and autopsies and

25 returned those to the Tribunal and placed them into the evidence. So it

Page 7145

1 was an examination of the reports and the artifacts and my being present

2 at the exhumation/autopsy processes.

3 Q. And what type of experts worked on this project?

4 A. There were a number of experts engaged by the OTP, specifically

5 archaeologists, including a chief archaeologists, pathologists,

6 anthropologists, experts in various fields in relation to the fields of

7 examination of human remains, such as forensic dentistry, x-ray, and

8 similar experts. We also employed a number of on-site experts, such as

9 former police or serving police officers who controlled the exhibits and

10 the bodies which were removed from the graves. Also at the mortuary,

11 police photographers, and evidence handlers were employed. We also tasked

12 specific experts such as Dr. Tony Brown who was a palaeonologist, a soil

13 expert. We also deployed a DNA, cloth, textile, DNA -- sorry, explosives

14 and other types of experts.

15 Q. And I understand again for ease of reference you prepared a chart

16 detailing the experts that were used by the OTP for the purposes of the

17 exhumations. Is that correct?

18 A. That's correct. It lists the expert and the report that they

19 produced.

20 Q. And that's at Exhibit 646?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Turning then, Mr. Manning, to the specific grave sites, can you

23 indicate what are the total number of grave sites associated with

24 Srebrenica.

25 A. At the moment we know of 43 mass grave sites in total. 23 of

Page 7146

1 those had been exhumed by ICTY. The remainder were handed over to the

2 Bosnian Commission for Missing Persons.

3 Q. And are there any graves that have not been exhumed as such?

4 A. We handed over the remaining 20 graves to the Bosnia commission,

5 which were all secondary graves which we were unable to exhume. They,

6 along with the International Commission for Missing Persons, have been

7 exhuming those graves. Initially the ICTY monitored that process, but in

8 2002 we stopped doing that and the Bosnian commission continues to exhume

9 those graves.

10 Q. All right. And I understand, Mr. Manning, you also prepared a

11 chart outlining the examined and exhumed graves, and that's at Exhibit

12 647. Can you just go through this chart for us and indicate what it

13 represents.

14 A. Your Honours, this is a table which indicates the graves on the

15 left which have been exhumed by ICTY. In 1996, four graves are listed.

16 In 1998, the eight graves are listed. And so on from 1991, 2000, 2001.

17 In 2001, we also exhumed or monitored the exhumation of the Ravnice 2

18 with the Bosnian Commission and the International Commission for Missing

19 Persons. The graves on the left-hand side which are bold indicate primary

20 graves and the others are secondary graves. On the right-hand side is a

21 list of graves which are all secondary graves which were probed or tested

22 to determine if they contained bodies. They were tested and found to

23 contain multiple human remains.

24 Q. All right. And can you -- and you also make a distinction between

25 primary graves and secondary graves. Can you indicate what that

Page 7147

1 distinction is, what's the difference?

2 A. Primary graves are graves in which the people or the victims were

3 initially placed after their death or indeed were executed whilst in the

4 graves or near the graves. The other graves, the secondary graves, are

5 those graves which have been created since that time and the bodies from

6 the primary graves have been moved to the secondary graves.

7 Q. You also indicated that the secondary graves -- or rather, the

8 examined by unexhumed graves are -- were tested somehow to determine that

9 they are graves. Can you elaborate on that.

10 A. Your Honours, the graves were identified using an archaeologist

11 and aerial imagery, which no doubt we'll will speak of later. Once the

12 outline or the area of the grave was tentatively identified either by hand

13 digging or, more commonly, mechanical digging, a trench was put through

14 the area of the grave or trenches were dug in various parts of the grave

15 until human remains were located and it was considered that it would have

16 to be multiple remains of multiple individuals to qualify as a mass grave.

17 So samples, if you like, were examined from various parts of the grave.

18 And if sufficient remains were found, it was deemed to be a mass grave.

19 Q. Now, I also note that on your chart you have an indication of a

20 disturbed primary mass grave. You may have touched on that, but can you

21 just elaborate on what that means.

22 A. Your Honours, some of the mass graves primary mass graves, or

23 those first created were subsequently opened and some of the bodies moved.

24 That happened in the case of Petkovci Dam, Kozluk, Glogova, Orahovac, 1

25 and 2, and they are indicated by the italics and also Branjevo Military

Page 7148

1 Farm.

2 Q. Now, I notice that some of the graves have different names. For

3 example, Orahovac is also called Lazete 1 or Lazete 2. Can you explain

4 why?

5 A. Your Honours, it's just effectively a process of the time that

6 these graves have been exhumed. Initially we believed the area of Lazete,

7 for instance, was referred to by local people as Lazete. We then learnt

8 that it was the area of Orahovac. And it seemed appropriate to change the

9 name to what was appropriate, given the local knowledge and also indicated

10 on maps. The dam was referred to colloquially as the red dam and later on

11 we identified the area as Petkovci. So we called it the dam at Petkovci

12 or near Petkovci. So it was simply a process of correctly identifying the

13 area where the graves were.

14 Q. Well, turning then to the map which is mounted. It's Exhibit 55

15 for the record. Can you using the pointer identify for us -- I'm assuming

16 that's going to come up on everybody's screen, the primary disturbed mass

17 graves.

18 A. At the top of the map Branjevo Military Farm, this primary grave

19 has been disturbed; the grave at Kozluk has been disturbed; the primary

20 grave at the dam near Petkovci has been heavily disturbed; the graves at

21 Orahovac, which is known as Lazete, have been disturbed; to the south of

22 the map, the grave at Konjevic Polje 1 and Konjevic -- sorry, Glogova 2

23 and Glogova 2 have been disturbed. The remaining primary graves indicated

24 in red had not been disturbed.

25 Q. I don't believe we were able to see the south of the map on the

Page 7149

1 screen, but hopefully the Chamber is able to see it from the map itself

2 that is mounted. Now, you also have on the legend of the map, which is at

3 the very bottom, the notation of the execution points, which are indicated

4 with black circles, such as, for example, Kravica warehouse to the south

5 of the map and to the very north, Pilica Dom. Can you -- starting with

6 these execution points, can you indicate where they were in relation to

7 the primary mass graves.

8 A. Your Honours, the Pilica Dom is at the very top of the map. It's

9 a short distance away from the Branjevo Military Farm. The Kravica

10 warehouse is to the south and it's on the road between Konjevic Polje and

11 Bratunac.

12 Q. And can you now indicate the undisturbed sites, the undisturbed

13 primary mass graves.

14 A. Those sites are in the south. They include Cerska, what's known

15 as Nova Kasaba 1996, Nova Kasaba 1999, Konjevic Polje 1, Konjevic Polje 2,

16 and what's known as Ravnice 1 and 2.

17 Q. Now, the legend of the map also indicates that these secondary

18 mass graves are marked with green circles. Can you just go through all

19 the secondary mass graves and what their connection is to the primary mass

20 graves for us.

21 A. Your Honours, the group of graves along Hodzici road - the seven

22 graves - I indicate that grave 1 was not used. There's strong indications

23 that those -- three of those graves were connected to Orahovac or Lazete.

24 Moving down to Cancari road --

25 Q. Can I stop you there for a moment. You said there were strong

Page 7150

1 indications, there were arrows connecting Orahovac to these three graves.

2 Just very briefly - we're going to get to this in more detail - can you

3 indicate how those graves were connected.

4 A. Your Honours, we had experts examine in this particular case the

5 soil pollen samples within the primary grave and that found within some of

6 the secondary graves. A match was found to that indicating that the soil

7 in the secondary graves had come from the primary graves. Also we found

8 cloth blindfolds and ligatures which were examined by experts and shown to

9 match from the primary grave to the secondary grave. We also found shell

10 cases within both types of graves, the primary and secondary. Those shell

11 cases were examined by experts and shown to match. And those indications

12 show us that the grave, the mass grave at Orahovac was linked to the three

13 secondary graves in Hodzici.

14 Q. Thank you. Moving on then to the next primary grave, the dam near

15 Petkovci, can you show us how it's connected to which secondary grave and

16 how.

17 A. The dam at Petkovci, which was a large primary grave on the

18 embankment of a dam, again analysis of soil samples in relation to the

19 primary grave matched those at one of the secondary graves at Liplje road.

20 There are four graves along that road and it was found to match the

21 exhumed secondary grave of Liplje 2.

22 Q. Moving on to Kozluk, the primary grave of Kozluk?

23 A. The Kozluk grave which is on the banks of the Drina river was

24 shown to be disturbed and it was connected to the primary grave that was

25 exhumed at Cancari road 3. If you see, it's again the soil and pollen

Page 7151

1 samples as I described, blindfolds and ligatures, again the same; shell

2 cases the same. But also we found broken -- large amounts of broken green

3 glass and bottle labels at Kozluk which were also located at Cancari road

4 3 which was completely exhumed. The other secondary graves on Cancari

5 road were probed and we located green glass in one of those graves. But

6 it was not fully exhumed so we don't know if there were bottle labels

7 there. But those bottle labels match a bottling factory near the Kozluk

8 mass grave.

9 Q. Okay. And moving on to the primary grave at Branjevo Military

10 Farm, it appears to be connected to Cancari 12. Can you elaborate on

11 that.

12 A. That's the mass grave at the top of the Branjevo Military Farm was

13 found to be disturbed and on examination of Cancari road 12, soil and

14 pollen samples as described samples match the primary grave and also

15 blindfolds and ligatures which were examined matched the primary grave.

16 Q. So then moving on to the southern part of the map looking at

17 Glogova, the primary grave of Glogova, how is that connected to the

18 secondary grave?

19 A. Your Honours, there's two mass graves at Glogova which are

20 separated by a small roadway. Examination of those graves indicated to

21 the majority had been disturbed. We were able to connect that -- those

22 two graves to the secondary graves at Zeleni Jadar road which were Zeleni

23 Jadar 6 and Zeleni Jadar 5. Again, through soil and pollen samples and

24 shell cases. We were also able to link that -- those two primary graves

25 to the execution point at Kravica warehouse, and this was done through

Page 7152

1 artifacts from the warehouse which matched the artifacts found in the

2 primary mass grave and also the secondary mass grave.

3 Q. We're going to get into that a little more detail later on, but

4 can you give us an example of the nature of the artifacts that matched?

5 A. There were a number of pieces of masonry and brick, steel, part of

6 the supporting beam for the front door, effectively the front door of the

7 warehouse was found in the Glogova graves, along with painted pieces of

8 masonry and supporting material from the building which matched the

9 warehouse.

10 Q. Excuse me. Before leaving the map I notice on the map there are a

11 number of secondary subgraves. For example, if you look at the

12 southern-most point of the map of -- looking at Zeleni Jadar, there appear

13 to be seven subgraves associated with Zeleni Jadar. Now, can you

14 explain -- can you explain that for us, please.

15 A. Along that stretch of roadway there were located seven secondary

16 mass graves, which had been created roughly at the same time. They were

17 dug on sides of the road or in some cases away from the road. Two of

18 those graves have been exhumed, a third has been tested and found to have

19 been emptied, and the other three graves have not been exhumed by the

20 ICTY.

21 Q. And what significance was it that two of them had been tested and

22 had found to have been emptied?

23 A. One of the graves, Zeleni Jadar 2, was examined by the chief

24 archaeologist was found to contain evidence of being used as a mass grave

25 such as minor body parts and other evidence which indicated it had been

Page 7153

1 used. But there were no bodies in the grave, which suggested to the

2 expert that there had been a tertiary grave created. In effect, the

3 bodies from that grave had been removed and placed somewhere else.

4 Q. And before leaving the map, Mr. Manning, can you indicate what is

5 the approximate distance between Srebrenica, which is to the south, and

6 Branjevo Military Farm, which is the northerly-most primary grave site.

7 A. I think directly it would be about 80 kilometres.

8 Q. And you've been to this area before. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes. I've been to each of the mass grave sites indicated on the

10 map and also the execution points indicated on the map.

11 Q. And how far would it take to drive from Srebrenica to Branjevo

12 Farm?

13 A. That's a difficult estimate, but an hour and a half, probably more

14 earlier on. But it depends on conditions. It's quite a -- it's quite

15 hilly around Srebrenica, but maybe an hour and a half.

16 Q. And what are the factors that indicate that a grave site is a

17 secondary grave site as opposed to a primary grave site? How is it

18 determined which graves were created first?

19 A. Your Honours, specifically we had survivor testimony which

20 indicated when some of the primary graves had been created. We also had

21 aerial imagery provided by the U.S. government, which indicated

22 approximate dates as to when the graves were created. They showed before

23 and after shots, if you will, of the area before the grave was created and

24 then after the grave was created, which indicated that they had been

25 created at or after the time of the Srebrenica massacres. Subsequently

Page 7154

1 those graves were -- seemed to be disturbed, again by aerial imagery.

2 They were shown to have been opened, dug up. At the same time, areas

3 removed from the primary graves were disturbed. Again, aerial imagery

4 showed those areas that had been disturbed. They coincided with the time

5 that the primary graves had been disturbed. But effectively they were

6 secondary because they weren't created at the time the primaries were

7 created. And following investigation, we found them to be linked.

8 Therefore we described them as secondary to the primaries.

9 Q. Okay. Perhaps we can go through some of the aerials to

10 demonstrate what you've just indicated. Turning to Exhibit 566. Can you

11 identify what we're looking at there.

12 A. This is a map produced to aid the Chamber. It shows the area of

13 Bratunac and the Konjevic Polje road leading from Bratunac to the left of

14 the screen. The two red circles indicate the primary graves of Glogova 1

15 and Glogova 2.

16 Q. Turning then to the next exhibit, 567.

17 A. This is an aerial image. Again, these were provided by the U.S.

18 government. It shows an area just off the Konjevic Polje road, which

19 would be to the top of this photograph. On the right-hand side of this

20 photograph marked as GL-1 is the primary grave of Glogova 1. And on the

21 left-hand side, the bottom side of the road, is the other grave of GL-2.

22 Q. The next exhibit is 568. Can you tell us what that depicts.

23 A. This is a photograph looking from the roadway which separates the

24 two graves, and it's looking towards the primary mass grave of Glogova 2.

25 It's the disturbed area of soil next to the man that can be seen in the

Page 7155

1 left of the photograph. In the foreground is a grave marker, which was as

2 I understand it associated with some of the houses that were there. It

3 was a historic grave marker. But that shows the area of the primary grave

4 prior to exhumation.

5 Q. The next exhibit is Exhibit 569. Can you indicate what that

6 depicts, please.

7 A. Again, this is an aerial image of the Glogova 1 grave, the one on

8 the right-hand side of the road. It indicates the date of the 27th of

9 July, 1995, on the left. And then on the right in October of 1995, it

10 shows the disturbance of that site. It shows what's indicated as

11 trenches. It also shows an excavator working, apparently working at that

12 site. I indicate that myself and the archaeologists, the chief

13 archaeologist, used these photos to identify and commence the exhumation

14 of both the Glogova 1 and Glogova 2 graves. Effectively we used such

15 photos to identify the outline of the grave and where we should commence

16 digging.

17 Q. The next exhibit is 570. Can you indicate what that image

18 depicts, please.

19 A. This is another image from the 30th of October, 1995. It's a much

20 clearer image. It clearly shows the disturbance of the two sites. You

21 can see what appear to be track marks. You can see what appears to be a

22 hole and a spoiled heap of soil and, as indicated, a machine at the site.

23 Again, these images were used by the archaeologists on the site to assist

24 them in determining where the graves were and the history, if you like, of

25 the disturbance.

Page 7156

1 Q. The next exhibit is 571. In the series of exhibits, it's the last

2 one. What does that depict, Mr. Manning?

3 A. This is an image from November of 1995. Again, it's the same

4 series of images provided by the U.S. government. It indicates the two

5 graves in winter, effectively. You can see the outline barely where the

6 depression caused by the graves marks the snow.

7 Q. Thank you. Then moving on to another primary grave by way of

8 example, the Orahovac grave. The next exhibit is 572.

9 A. Again, this map is to assist the Chamber in placing the Orahovac,

10 Lazete, grave. To the right of the circle is Zvornik. In the top is the

11 dam near Petkovci. The red circle is Orahovac. And if you follow the

12 road below it to the left, it would travel back towards Tuzla.

13 Q. Exhibit 573 is the next one. What does that depict?

14 A. Again, a U.S. aerial image. It shows the before and after shots

15 of the Orahovac 1 and 2 mass graves. If you see on the left-hand pane in

16 the 5th of July, 1995, there's no disturbance available. On the

17 right-hand side pane on the 27th of July, at the top centre of the picture

18 is a disturbance with vehicle tracks, or it looks like vehicle tracks.

19 Moving down the photo to the bottom and below the railway line is a large

20 disturbance heading into the woods. They -- this photograph depicts the

21 creation of the primary grave at Orahovac 1 and 2.

22 Q. Thank you. Turning then to Exhibit 574. What does that depict?

23 A. This is a close-up of the Orahovac 1 grave which was the one at

24 the top of the photograph. In the left you can see the area in September

25 of 1995. And whilst the area is disturbed, you can see that it's perhaps

Page 7157

1 starting to grow back. On the right-hand side on the 27th of September,

2 you can see that there has been a disturbance of that site. The site has

3 been enlarged and there are what look to be vehicle tracks throughout that

4 area.

5 Q. And what is the significance of that?

6 A. Effectively this shows the grave on the left after it had been

7 created and prior to a disturbance, prior to being dug up. And on the

8 right-hand side it shows the grave after it's been dug up and it looks as

9 if it's been closed again.

10 Q. Turning then to the exhibit 575. Can you tell us what that

11 depicts, please.

12 A. This is the second grave, Orahovac 2, which is behind the railway

13 line. You can see in the top of the photograph a railway line. Again,

14 7th of September, it shows the site as it stood then. And the 27th it

15 shows an area which has been disturbed again and what look like vehicle

16 tracks throughout that area.

17 Q. Moving then on to the next primary grave, which is Branjevo Farm,

18 exhibit 583.

19 A. This is another aerial image provided by the U.S. government.

20 It's marked as Branjevo state farm, which we know is Branjevo Military

21 Farm. It's dated the 17th of July. It has a number of markings on it

22 which indicate various structures and things on the ground. Of particular

23 interest is an area in the centre left of the photograph, which shows a

24 number of bodies on the ground, a large number of bodies. To the bottom

25 left of that photograph is an excavation, a mound of soil, and clear

Page 7158

1 vehicle tracks from the bodies to the area of the mass grave. It also

2 shows an excavator or a machine parked at the site and the various

3 buildings which make up that site.

4 Q. And just for the record, that was actually Exhibit 584. Exhibit

5 583 was the map. We don't need to go through that. The next exhibit that

6 we will look at in the series is 585.

7 A. This is another photograph of the Branjevo Military Farm, and it

8 shows effectively the same area. However, it shows the burial area of the

9 grave to the bottom left of the photograph. It indicates a disturbance of

10 that grave and the associated vehicle tracks with it.

11 Q. Moving then on to Exhibit 586. What does that depict?

12 A. Again, it's the same area of the military farm. And highlighted

13 in an expanded square is the words "backhoe" and "frontloader," which

14 indicates a machine at the site. And the mass grave to the bottom left of

15 the photograph is described as a newly excavated trench. And again, you

16 can clearly see vehicle tracks surrounding the grave and leading from and

17 to the grave.

18 Q. All right. And by way of example, we're now going to look at one

19 of the secondary graves. Exhibit 587. Can you just indicate,

20 Mr. Manning, what that depicts, briefly please.

21 A. This shows the area of the Zeleni Jadar mass graves. It shows the

22 graves 1 to 6, which is situated south, directly south of Srebrenica. I

23 would indicate that the point which is marked I, Zeleni Jadar 1 actually,

24 consists of two graves. The grave wasn't probed at this stage. But

25 effectively it is a probed unexhumed grave, so it would be 1A, 1B, 2, 3,

Page 7159

1 4, 5, 6. So seven graves along that stretch

2 Q. Just by reminder, that grave, Zeleni Jadar, was connected to which

3 primary mass grave?

4 A. The exhumed graves at Zeleni Jadar 5 and 6 have been connected to

5 the Glogova 1 and 2 mass graves and hence to the execution point at

6 Kravica warehouse.

7 Q. Thank you. Moving then on to Exhibit 588. Can you indicate what

8 that aerial imagery depicts?

9 A. This is a collage of two images from the U.S. government, and it

10 shows the area along the Zeleni Jadar road which has been used for the

11 secondary graves. As indicated, Zeleni Jadar 1 is two graves and you can

12 see two disturbances there. And as you follow the road along you can see

13 disturbances on the side of the road which represent the secondary graves.

14 Zeleni Jadar 2 is the empty grave. Zeleni Jadar 3 and 4 have not have

15 exhumed. 5 and 6 have been exhumed by ICTY.

16 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 589, what does that depict?

17 A. This is again a before and after aerial image. It's dated the 7th

18 of September, 1995, and the 2nd of October, 1995. And if you see the

19 exact same image left and right, there's no disturbance in September the

20 7th. However, on the 2nd of October, it's clearly visible that there are

21 two disturbances, what look like open pits. The Zeleni Jadar 1 grave is,

22 if you'd like, what we would call 1A. The -- if you go to the bottom

23 centre of that right-hand pane, you see another disturbed area. In 2001 I

24 was present while that grave was probed, and we located multiple human

25 remains in that grave and designated that as Zeleni Jadar 1B.

Page 7160

1 Q. Thank you. Turning then to Exhibit 590. Can you indicate what

2 that depicts, please.

3 A. This shows that same area. And on the left-hand pane, on the 18th

4 of October, you can still see that it appears to be an open pit. On the

5 20th of October, it appears that those two pits, 1A and 1B have been

6 covered up or closed.

7 Q. And just briefly, Mr. Manning, what is the significance of that?

8 A. Well, given the fact that both those graves were examined and

9 found to contain multiple human remains, this indicates that sometime on

10 the 18th of October to the 20th of October, the bodies were placed in

11 those graves and those graves were then sealed until we came and probed

12 them.

13 Q. Thank you. Moving on then to Exhibit 591. Can you indicate what

14 that depicts.

15 A. Again, this is a split image of the roadway adjacent to Zeleni

16 Jadar 2 mass grave. On the left-hand pane of August 24th, 1995, there's

17 no disturbance. On the 2nd of October, 1995, you can see clearly a pit.

18 I would indicate that that grave, as I said, was the one that had been

19 robbed or disturbed. And very adjacent -- very close to that grave is the

20 river. I think you can see it in this image. It runs right alongside the

21 grave. And in fact, when I visited that grave, it was being flooded by

22 the river.

23 Q. Now you said that grave was the one that was robbed or disturbed.

24 Can you just clarify specifically what you are referring to.

25 A. "Robbed" is a term used by the archaeologists. But it

Page 7161

1 indicates -- as the primary graves have been robbed or disturbed or opened

2 or removed or the contents removed, in a similar way, Professor Richard

3 Wright indicated that Zeleni Jadar 2 had been robbed, that is the contents

4 had been taken somewhere else and the grave had been filled back in.

5 Q. Moving then to Exhibit 592, can you indicate what that exhibit

6 depicts.

7 A. It's another in the series, if you like. The previous one had

8 shown before the grave was created and after it was created. This shot

9 shows the grave when it was open. And on the 23rd of October or

10 thereabouts when it had been sealed again. So we assume that between the

11 20th and the 23th, bodies had been placed in the grave and the grave

12 sealed.

13 Q. This again is the Zeleni Jadar 2, which you indicated earlier was

14 emptied?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 593, can you indicate what that exhibit

17 depicts.

18 A. It's the same stretch of road. It's not far from Zeleni Jadar 2.

19 On the left-hand pane, the 7th of September, 1995, no disturbance. And on

20 the right-hand pane on the 2nd of October, 1995, the grave of Zeleni Jadar

21 3 had been created.

22 Q. And has that grave since been exhumed yet?

23 A. No, that grave was not exhumed by ICTY. It was handed over to the

24 Bosnia Commission for Missing Persons. And I don't know if they have yet

25 exhumed that grave.

Page 7162

1 Q. Moving on then to Exhibit 594. Can you indicate what that

2 depicts.

3 A. This is the same area and it shows the Zeleni Jadar 3 grave as it

4 has been covered up and closed, assuming that the bodies had been placed

5 inside.

6 Q. Moving on then to Exhibit 595. That depicts what?

7 A. Exactly the same process. In this, the panes are split top to

8 bottom. In the top pane you can see that there is no disturbance. On the

9 bottom, you can see that Zeleni Jadar 4 to the top of the road has been

10 created. And Zeleni Jadar 5 on the curve of the road has been created. I

11 was present at the commencement of the exhumation of Zeleni Jadar 5.

12 Zeleni Jadar 4 has not been exhumed by ICTY.

13 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 596. That exhibit depicts what?

14 A. Again, this image is showing the secondary graves after they had

15 been filled in. The date is the 18th of October, 1995, Zeleni Jadar 4 and

16 5.

17 Q. Moving on then to 597.

18 A. This is the final grave along the Zeleni Jadar roadway or area.

19 On the 7th of September, 1995, there is no disturbance. On the 27th of

20 September, 1995, there is a -- an elongated open pit which has been

21 excavated and it's designated Zeleni Jadar 6.

22 Q. Moving on then to Exhibit 598, the last in the series.

23 A. This shows the 12th of October, 1995, on the left-hand pane.

24 Clearly the grave is open. And on the right-hand pane on the 18th of

25 October, the grave has been closed after being filled with bodies. There

Page 7163

1 is vehicle tracks along and around that grave. I used that image and

2 similar images when I was present at the opening of that grave, Zeleni

3 Jadar 6. We used those images to find a grave, locate the edges of the

4 grave, and exhume that grave.

5 Q. Thank you. And, Mr. Manning, just to save time. We're not going

6 to go through the remainder of the aerials. But during the course of your

7 involvement in this matter you've actually had a chance to review all

8 these -- all the aerials on the exhibit list. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes. I've reviewed all the aerial images available to us. I've

10 also used them, as I indicated, in the field to identify mass grave sites

11 and assist in their exhumation.

12 Q. And from your review of the remainder of the aerials, were you and

13 the investigation team able to determine the creation dates of the graves?

14 A. Yes, within the ranges indicated on the photographs. I can't

15 comment on the days that these were taken, but clearly between the 12th of

16 October and the 18th of October, this grave was filled in. We also were

17 able to match the disturbance of the primary graves, the opening of the

18 primary graves, and the opening and closing of the secondary graves. But

19 those two things occurred at the same time. The primaries were opened and

20 disturbed. The secondaries were created and then filled up.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MS. ISSA: And for the record, Your Honours, Exhibits 576 through

23 582 relate to the primary graves, the dam and Kozluk. And exhibits 599

24 through 645 relate to the secondary graves of Hodzici, Liplje, and

25 Cancari. So in the interest of saving time, I do not propose to refer to

Page 7164

1 these at this point, but I will be seeking to tender them.

2 Q. Moving on then to another area, Mr. Manning. You indicate,

3 Mr. Manning, when a grave is initially identified, what are some of the

4 factors that indicate whether a grave has actually been disturbed or

5 tampered with?

6 A. In most instances we were assisted significantly by the aerial

7 images which had indicated that disturbance. And using those images we

8 were able to see a disturbance on the ground. I've indicated vehicle

9 tracks which were present. You could see those vehicle tracks. You could

10 see where a fence line perhaps was knocked down to allow entrance for a

11 vehicle. So they were very useful. But specifically the evidence of

12 disturbance of the graves was indicated by the archaeological examination

13 of the site. The archaeologists were able to examine the soil

14 composition, the structure, the layering, et cetera, and determine that

15 the grave had been determined, the original features and formations of

16 that grave had been broken into or dug through. And in some instances it

17 was very clear to a layman, such as myself, including areas where bodies

18 had clearly been removed, sections of bodies had been cut through, and

19 that mass of bodies were missing.

20 Q. Turning then to some of the exhibits, Exhibit 549/107. Can you

21 indicate, Mr. Manning, what this photograph depicts.

22 A. This is a photograph taken during the exhumation process at Kozluk

23 mass grave. What it shows is the top of the photo a group of bodies.

24 They're laying on the original surface of the ground. And that surface

25 would have continued down through the bottom of the photograph. But you

Page 7165

1 can see what -- this section of the soil which has been removed. You can

2 see the wheel ruts from a machine. You can clearly see the teeth marks

3 from an earth-moving machine to the right of the photograph and in the

4 base of the photograph. And if you look where the bodies meet the area of

5 disturbance, you can see that those bodies have been bisected, they've

6 been cut through, and that mass of bodies which would have continued down

7 the photograph have been taken from that mass grave and removed. You can

8 see quite significant disturbance to the base of the soil, as I say from

9 the wheel ruts. And it's clear that that happened after the bodies had

10 been placed on the soil, thus showing that the disturbance happened after

11 the people had been placed there.

12 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 653. Can you indicate what that

13 photograph depicts.

14 A. This is part of an expert report prepared by Professor Richard

15 Wright. And it details exhumation of the Glogova 1 mass grave. I was

16 present for a significant part of this exhumation and I saw these features

17 in the grave. The left-hand photograph indicates tooth marks from a

18 machine which had dug through the soil, leaving the imprint of the teeth

19 and the blades from the machine. It also is shown in photograph in the

20 middle which you can see to the centre, slightly left, marks through the

21 soil where the machine has cut through the soil. When soil is put on top

22 of that, it preserves those marks. And the archaeologists have been able

23 to remove the soil and show the marks. On the right-hand side of that

24 image is clear vehicle tracks in the base of the grave. You can see the

25 fact that a wheel or wheels moved across the surface of the soil. And

Page 7166

1 again, I was present and saw these marks in the base of the graves.

2 Q. Thank you. Turning then to Exhibit 652. Can you describe what

3 this photograph depicts.

4 A. This is one of the graves, subgraves if you like, of GLO1. It's

5 the bottom of a deep pit in which a number of bodies have been placed.

6 The bodies were removed in this image. And this body remained at the base

7 of the grave. And the body is resting on top of the marks or the teeth

8 marks made when that grave was initially created. If you like, they dug

9 the hole, leaving the teeth marks in the soil. They dumped this body on

10 top of that, so obviously it post-dated the creation of the hole. And

11 then further bodies were deposited on top. This grave was robbed and

12 there were indications further up the hole of disturbance of the wall of

13 the grave, showing that it had been robbed. And this young individual was

14 left in the bottom of the grave to show that effect, that the grave had

15 been created and that he had been placed on top of it.

16 Q. Okay. According to the information that you received,

17 Mr. Manning, excuse me, does this -- is there any indication what kind of

18 device had been used on the bodies in the various photographs that we've

19 just seen?

20 A. If you mean what device was used to dig the graves or to rob the

21 graves, in this instance, because it was a deep pit, it was indicated to

22 me and demonstrated to me that it was probably a machine such as a --

23 called a 360 digger, a machine with an arm that can reach into the soil

24 and pull soil up. The other disturbance on the previous exhibit was

25 caused by, in part, by a similar machine but a machine with a blade or a

Page 7167

1 bucket which would reach into the soil and lift the soil up and take large

2 parts of the soil out. This indicates two different machines. And each

3 of the graves that were exhumed, we were able to identify such features

4 and in many instances indicate what type of machine was used, general type

5 of machine.

6 Q. And what is the effect of the removal process on the bodies in the

7 primary grave and the evidence that is associated with those bodies?

8 A. The effect of opening up the primary graves and disturbing those

9 bodies, transporting them and placing them in secondary graves, is that it

10 severely hampered our efforts to even count the bodies let alone identify

11 the bodies or provide a cause of death. If you have an undisturbed grave

12 such as Cerska, there were 150 male individuals killed in that grave. It

13 was easy to identify the sex. It was easy to identify the cause of death.

14 It was easy to identify the number. When you go to the Kozluk grave or

15 the Glogova grave or any other primary disturbed graves, bodies are broken

16 up, bodies are separated, bones are smashed. And the bones,

17 identification material, artifacts are distributed across the primary

18 grave, spread by the machine. They are also distributed across the

19 secondary sites, spread across the sites by the machines, broken up, and

20 the loss of the evidence is significant and the damage to the bodies was

21 very significant in hampering our investigations.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Manning.

23 MS. ISSA: Your Honours, I believe we are now going to show a

24 nine-minute video depicting part of an exhumation which is by way of

25 example.

Page 7168

1 Q. Mr. Manning, the scenes we are about to watch, can you indicate

2 who videotaped them?

3 A. I videotaped them, and I apologise for the quality. I recorded

4 them at the exhumation of the Orahovac 1 mass grave.

5 MS. ISSA: And I'm asking the assistance of the AV booth to play

6 the tape.

7 JUDGE LIU: Do we have to watch it from the very beginning to the

8 end?

9 MS. ISSA: It's only nine minutes, Your Honour. So we've

10 shortened it actually; we're not going to play the entire tape.

11 JUDGE LIU: If there's some explanations by this witness, I think

12 it's okay. But I have received that videotape already and watched it

13 already in my office. So you may try it.

14 MS. ISSA: I'm in Your Honour's hands. If you prefer I don't play

15 it, that's fine. I do believe Mr. Manning was going to provide some

16 further explanation in addition to what is already on the tape.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, that will be okay.

18 MS. ISSA: Thank you.

19 [Videotape played]

20 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, this section of the video indicates a

21 bullet which has been located and the process of handling the exhibits,

22 marking them with a number issued by the scene of crime officer and then

23 photographing that item in situ before it is bagged and placed into

24 evidence.

25 This shows the mechanical digger working at the site, which

Page 7169

1 scrapes the top layer of soil off. Two men watching are archaeologists

2 and they are attempting to see artifacts or body parts which may be

3 disturbed. This is a body which has been located and is being exhumed.

4 You can see a cloth blindfold on the skull of that body. You can see the

5 bags which have been labelled to accept artifacts located from that body.

6 Measuring and photographing survey points taken from that body, which is

7 number 290.

8 This shows the process of removing the body and body parts. The

9 person conducting the work is an anthropologist, as are all the people

10 handling the remains. This shows the removal of the body parts piece by

11 piece. It indicates the slow and meticulous nature of the work which has

12 to be conducted in relation to each of these bodies.

13 This shows the continuing process of metal detecting over and

14 under the body to identify metal artifacts any danger to the people, but

15 also bullets embedded below the body or on the body. Once the body is

16 removed or parts of the body are removed the archaeologist continued to

17 find the bottom of the soil, to make sure there were no other remains or

18 artifacts below the body. That body bag is then transported to the

19 mortuary.

20 This is another body within that same grave. They've located the

21 cloth blindfold on the head of that body. This is another area of the

22 grave which is being exhumed. It shows again the time-consuming effort

23 involved in exhuming each of these bodies. It also shows the different

24 states of preservation from the previous body.

25 This is the same grave, and it was being exhumed five years almost

Page 7170

1 to the day since the bodies had been placed in the grave.


3 Q. All right. Thank you.

4 MS. ISSA: And I thank the AV booth for assisting us with that in

5 the videotape.

6 If I didn't indicate earlier, Your Honour, that was Exhibit 654.

7 It is 10.15 as I see on the clock, and I believe it may be time for the

8 break.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's time for the break and we'll resume at

10 quarter to 11.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

12 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa, please continue.

14 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Now, Mr. Manning, turning then to the general findings of the

16 experts and firstly dealing with statistics, I believe that you prepared a

17 chart in relation to that, a table of results, which is at Exhibit 649.

18 Is that correct?

19 A. Yes. I produced a table of results from the exhumations.

20 Q. And how many individuals were found in total in relation to all

21 the graves?

22 A. This figure represents a minimum calculation of that number. I

23 don't believe it represents how many we found but it represents a minimum

24 calculation of the number of bodies accounted for in the graves. That has

25 been assessed by an expert at 2.541 individuals.

Page 7171

1 Q. Okay. And when you say a "minimum calculation," what do you mean

2 by that?

3 A. As I said before, with the disruption of the bodies, with the

4 breaking up of the bodies, and the spreading across sites, it makes it

5 very difficult to count the number of individuals. Because of that,

6 anthropologists have to assess the number of individuals represented in

7 the bodies or body parts or bones that we find. They do that by counting

8 a specific type of bone until they come up with a figure that they say

9 would represent the smallest number of individuals in that mass of bones

10 and bodies. That was calculated by Mr. Jose Baraybar and recalculated

11 over the years. And as the primary graves were exhumed and matched

12 together. He then combined all the figures for the primary and secondary

13 graves and produced a figure which he says is the -- represents all the

14 bodies from all the sites combined.

15 Q. All right. And that figure was the 2.541 that we see in the

16 second column marked MMNI at the very bottom. Is that correct?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. And what is MMNI? What does that stand for?

19 A. Normally the figure -- the acronym is "minimal number of

20 individuals," but because Mr. Baraybar was asked to join all the primaries

21 and all the secondaries, whether they were connected or not, he used the

22 term "minimal minimal number of individuals."

23 Q. Now, in your report, which is the latest report of 2003, which was

24 Exhibit 554, I believe you indicated that the total number of bodies was

25 2.571. Is that correct?

Page 7172

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Can you explain the discrepancy between what you have in your

3 report and the 2.541 minimal minimum of individuals?

4 A. There's two main reasons for that difference, one being in my

5 report I based the figures that I had on the work of Mr. Baraybar before

6 he amalgamated all the sites. But also some of the sites hadn't been

7 examined by Mr. Baraybar by him. He hadn't produced an MNI for those

8 graves. So I had to rely on the next best figure, if you like, which was

9 an assessment of the number of complete or almost complete bodies by the

10 chief pathologist, Professor Clark or Dr. Clark. Therefore I was adding

11 two different sets of figures because one definitive figure was not

12 available.

13 The second reason for the difference of approximately 30

14 individuals was in comparing the different sites which were exhumed over

15 different years by different people using methods which have progressed or

16 changed, Mr. Baraybar sought to identify bones or specific types of bones

17 which were represented right across the sites. The process of doing that

18 meant that he had to eliminate some individuals who were represented in

19 the graves but didn't have the correct or right bone for him to assess.

20 In effect, he sought the lowest common denominator, and when that

21 denominator wasn't present he effectively was forced to ignore some of the

22 bodies. It wasn't a significant number. As I said, about 30. But

23 that's why his figure is 2.541. The previous figure that I produced based

24 on his report -- sorry, his work and the work of the pathologist was

25 2.570.

Page 7173

1 Q. And this figure of 2.541, is that considered to be a conservative

2 figure or a liberal one?

3 A. It's a very conservative figure for the reasons I've outlined,

4 particularly with Mr. Baraybar's assessment. But also had we not used the

5 amalgamation of all the graves, the MNI by its very nature is

6 conservative. It seeks to represent the minimal number of individuals in

7 the grave. If the bodies are broken up, if the bodies -- certain bones

8 are missing, if the bones that you want to count aren't represented or you

9 can't distinguish the bones from each other in that you don't want to

10 double count, you use an MNI and it is a very conservative figure. And

11 from my experience with the autopsy process, I believe it significantly

12 undercounts the number of bodies that are represented in the graves that

13 were exhumed. The ultimate number of bodies will hopefully be determined

14 through the DNA analysis being conducted by the Bosnian Commission, in

15 which almost every bone will be examined and identified. And that will

16 provide the definitive number of bodies.

17 Q. Can you give us a -- perhaps a practical or concrete example of

18 how the MNI is calculated in the sense of -- you're saying, for instance,

19 there is a bone -- specific bones are counted. Can you give us an example

20 of that?

21 A. Your Honours, I'm conscious that I'm giving this as a layman's

22 point of view, but I have discussed it at length with the experts and I

23 believe I came to an understanding of it. If you have ten complete bodies

24 in a grave, then it's ten bodies. If you have ten bodies complete and one

25 skull, then clearly it's 11 individuals. You can continue on like that,

Page 7174

1 but if you, say, found that you were counting the left thigh bone because

2 it's a large bone and we all have one -- normally have one left thigh

3 bone, you could count all the left thigh bones in that group of bodies if

4 you didn't have complete bodies. If you counted ten left thigh bones, it

5 would indicate ten individuals. However, if you found a right thigh bone

6 you wouldn't normally count it, unless that right thigh bone was perhaps

7 from a female and all the other ten were males or was from a child. If

8 that bone, that different bone was significantly top the ten that you

9 already counted, you could then count that bone. So you would have ten

10 left thigh bones, you'd have one right thigh bone, then you might have a

11 skull that wasn't represented by those thigh bones, different sex or

12 different age. Therefore, that process continues by the anthropologist

13 until they come up with a figure that they can represent as the minimal

14 number of individuals. But again, if the bones are broken up, if the

15 bones aren't complete, you have to be very careful that you double -- you

16 don't double count. Therefore, you tend to exclude a large number of body

17 parts and bones.

18 Q. For the record, the figure you're referring to 2.541 is found in

19 Mr. Baraybar's latest report, Incident 660, which was produced in January

20 this year.

21 Now, this figure, 2.541, does that take into account the unexhumed

22 graves?

23 A. No that simply represents the number of graves that we've exhumed,

24 the 23 mass graves. It doesn't take into account the secondary graves

25 that we handed over to the Bosnian commission and did not exhume. It

Page 7175

1 doesn't take into account the logical tertiary grave from Zeleni Jadar 2.

2 It doesn't take into account other primary graves that we believe exist

3 from witness testimony but we have not located. And it does not take into

4 account other secondary graves we are aware have been created but not yet

5 probed or examined.

6 Q. Now, have there been archaeological estimates made of the

7 unexhumed graves that obviously have been located?

8 A. Professor Richard Wright who examined seven secondary graves in

9 1998 made a calculation in his report of that year's work in which he made

10 an estimate of the number of bodies which were likely or possibly to be

11 found in the secondary graves as yet unexhumed. He based that on the -- a

12 simple average of the graves that have been exhumed, the lowest and the

13 highest. He took the average. And he produced an estimate of, I believe,

14 122 point something bodies per unexhumed secondary grave. On that basis,

15 he came up with a figure of I believe 2.571 bodies which would be

16 represented mathematically by the unexhumed graves. That didn't take into

17 account Zeleni Jadar 1B which hadn't been -- been located. So he produced

18 that figure based on the known secondary graves.

19 Q. And this was in the exhumations that occurred as of 1996 -- or

20 1998, rather?

21 A. That was based on his work in which he not only exhumed the seven

22 secondary graves in 1998, but he probed all of the secondary graves

23 which -- the 20 other secondary graves. So based on his examination of

24 the ones he had exhumed and the examination of the ones he had probed and

25 examined the aerial imagery and the dimensions of the graves.

Page 7176

1 Q. Now, Mr. Manning, if we were to take a concrete example of the

2 Zeleni Jadar graves which we saw earlier on the map, I believe there are

3 approximately seven of the subgraves -- seven subgraves, are you able to

4 give us an estimate of the number of individuals in the secondary graves

5 that have been unexhumed?

6 A. Your Honours, simply applying Dr. Wright's estimate, there are two

7 graves along that road which have been exhumed. There is one grave which

8 is empty, which leaves four secondary graves unexhumed. Using that rough

9 estimate of 120 individuals, we would expect there to be in the region of

10 480 to 500, I suppose, bodies in those unexhumed graves.

11 Q. All right. And looking at the table of results that is on our

12 screen, if you added the -- that estimate of unexhumed graves to the

13 exhumed graves of Glogova, which was approximately 613, according to the

14 MMNI, what are the estimated number of bodies that are located at that

15 site?

16 A. Simply adding that number 613 plus 480, say, you are over 1.000

17 individuals, which would likely be represented in the exhumed graves,

18 primary and secondary, and the unexhumed graves.

19 Q. Was there a connection made between the Glogova and a particular

20 execution point?

21 A. Yes. As I said before, the Glogova 1 and 2 primary graves were

22 clearly connected to the nearby massacre at the Kravica warehouse.

23 Q. And going back to Richard Wright's total estimates of the

24 secondary unexhumed graves, which I think you indicated was 2.571. If you

25 add that to the number of exhumed individuals, what is the estimated total

Page 7177

1 number of bodies for all the graves?

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may object here for one second.

3 I understand that there were some qualifications by the gentleman. He's

4 indicated that they are estimates made by someone else, not by himself.

5 So I just want to make sure that we understand that these are just

6 guesstimates based on some probability that was calculated by some other

7 individual who, as I understand it, will not be testifying here. So I

8 don't object to them guessing as to what the final number would be. But I

9 want to make sure that not a whole lot of weight be placed on this number

10 unless they can produce the gentleman here to be cross-examined who made

11 these guesstimates or some other ways that we can sort of rely on this

12 figure. So as far as it being just a guesstimate, I don't have a problem.

13 But I want to make sure that my objection is registered as far as the

14 weight that should be given to these figures.

15 JUDGE LIU: I think your objection is registered in the

16 transcript.

17 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, if I may respond to that by way of

18 reminder.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

20 MS. ISSA: Richard Wright's report and his testimony from the

21 Krstic trial has been admitted pursuant to 92 bis and 94 bis. Pursuant to

22 this Chamber's ruling as of 7 November 2003. So that evidence is before

23 the Court. So I would submit that the weight should be placed accordingly

24 as you would place any weight on any other witness's testimony, given that

25 it is before the Court and it has been admitted by this Chamber.

Page 7178

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think both parties have put their hands into

2 our domain. And at this stage I'm only going to say that I hope the

3 witness could bear in mind the objections from the Defence counsel and

4 answer the question put to you.

5 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, bearing in mind those comments, if you

6 add Mr. -- Professor Wright's estimate of 2.571 to Mr. Baraybar's

7 calculation of 2.541, obviously it's in excess of [Realtime transcript

8 read in error "2.500"] 5.100 individuals.


10 Q. I'm not sure that was registered in the transcript, the last

11 number that -- the figure you gave, Mr. Manning. Could you just please

12 repeat that.

13 A. The number presented by Mr. Baraybar in his calculation was 2.541.

14 Mr. -- Professor Wright's calculation was 2.571. An addition of those

15 two is roughly 5.100 plus.

16 Q. Okay. Now, in addition to the unexhumed graves, Mr. Manning, how

17 many unknown graves are there believed to exist?

18 A. That's a difficult question because we don't know what we don't

19 know. But one witness and it may be before --

20 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going to object.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: He's being asked to speculate and his answer is

23 quite clear --

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, believe to exist, which means that this witness

25 may have some information to believe there exists some graves. Let's hear

Page 7179

1 what the witness is going to tell us.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. Just as long as we

3 understand that he is now going to be speculating to some degree based on

4 witness testimony as opposed to some other concrete evidence such as

5 satellite imagery, as they have.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may answer this question, Witness.

7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour. There may be testimony

8 before this Chamber by a survivor of the execution at the dam who

9 indicated a trailer full of bodies was conveyed away from the site,

10 indicating the existence of a grave. We have attempted to locate that

11 grave; we have been unable to. As I said the Zeleni Jadar 2 grave had

12 been emptied, indicating a tertiary grave. We have been unable to locate

13 that grave. And I am aware of testimony before this Chamber or

14 investigative material deriving from testimony, which indicated another

15 three graves. One of those graves, to my knowledge, has been probed by

16 the Bosnian Commission and multiple human remains located. So in specific

17 answer to that question, I would say there are five other graves that we

18 don't know about or don't know the location of.

19 MS. ISSA:

20 Q. Okay. Thank you. And have there been any more recent findings of

21 graves to your knowledge?

22 A. Yes, as I indicated, I think only recently one of three suspected

23 sites was probed or tested by the Bosnian Commission and multiple human

24 remains were located in that one grave.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, with respect to the Ravnice grave, Mr. Manning,

Page 7180

1 do you have the estimates as to the number of bodies located in the

2 Ravnice grave?

3 A. Yes, I do. I would -- to be completely accurate with the Chamber,

4 I would prefer to refer to the table. There are a lot of figures and I

5 don't want to mislead you.

6 Q. And that was Exhibit 649 that's currently on our screen.

7 A. Your Honours, the two graves at Ravnice are described as Ravnice 1

8 and 2. Effectively they are one grave, but because we, ICTY, exhumed

9 partly Ravnice, we called it Ravnice 1. The next year the Bosnian

10 Commission for Missing Persons continued that exhumation, monitored by the

11 ICTY; therefore, we called it Ravnice 2. In the ICTY preliminary

12 exhumations, 34 individuals were located following 198 individuals were

13 located. Using Mr. Baraybar's formula of calculating and merging those

14 two sites, because they are the same site, he calculated that number to be

15 219.

16 Q. Thank you. Is there anything else you can tell us about those

17 graves, the Ravnice graves?

18 A. The Ravnice graves were unusual in the fact that they were closely

19 located near the Glogova 1 and 2 graves, but they were up a roadway. And

20 the bodies had been dumped down a cliff. It had appeared that the bodies

21 had been pushed off the cliff and had scattered down the cliff face. Some

22 of them had been stopped by trees, some had wrapped around fence posts and

23 wire. And there -- I was present at the exhumation by ICTY and part of

24 the exhumation by the Bosnian Commission. And there were distinct groups

25 of bodies and they were angled away from the road. The experts at the

Page 7181

1 exhumation accounted for that by trucks being -- dumping bodies down the

2 cliffside and the angle being caused by a narrow road. Some attempt had

3 been made to cover some of the bodies. Some soil had been taken from the

4 other side of the road and dumped over those bodies. Not all the bodies

5 had been covered. And because of the slope and because the bodies had

6 been skeletonised, a large proportion of the body parts had rolled down

7 the cliff into the valley, making it very difficult to collect all the

8 remains.

9 Also on the examination we -- sorry, the autopsy of the bodies

10 collected by the ICTY and by the Bosnian Commission was conducted at the

11 ICTY morgue. On examination, the majority of those bodies were found to

12 have been -- the cause of death of multiple gun shot wounds. There

13 weren't, if I recall correctly, a significant number of blast injuries.

14 Q. Was there any evidence connecting the Ravnice mass grave to a

15 particular execution site?

16 A. Yes, there was. During the exhumation by the Bosnian Commission

17 and whilst I was present, artifacts which were identical to those at the

18 Kravica warehouse were located. A startling piece was one of the -- part

19 of the foam lettering from the doorway of the warehouse was located in

20 amongst the bodies at Ravnice. And on examination the foam lettering

21 above the doorway at the warehouse was -- seemed to be missing that part.

22 It was clearly to the experts that there was some connection between the

23 Ravnice grave and Kravica. Large artifacts were not located, however.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, just briefly going back to one point, if the

25 Zeleni Jadar graves were covered by October 20th, which is what we saw in

Page 7182

1 the aerial imagery earlier, and the Glogova grave was still open or being

2 dug up by October 30th, according to the aerial imagery, do you know where

3 bodies were taken from Glogova on the 30th of October?

4 A. No, I don't.

5 Q. Moving on then to the issue of gender. What gender were the

6 majority of the victims found in the various graves?

7 A. Gender was assigned as either male, which the majority of the

8 victims were identified as male, or undetermined was a significant number

9 of individuals. There was one positive identification of a female which

10 was in the Konjevic Polje 1 mass grave.

11 Q. All right. With respect to age, was it possible to determine the

12 age of the victims in the graves?

13 A. Yes. That was part of the aim of the autopsy examinations. The

14 age ranges are detailed in the various reports of the experts. And

15 because of the different experts and the different systems applied, there

16 are assigned age ranges. So rather than assigning a specific age to an

17 individual, they were often assigned quite broad age ranges. The age

18 ranges tended to be from the very young -- younger than 12, 12 to 19,

19 right up until quite old individuals in their 90s.

20 Q. By way of example, Mr. Manning, can you give us the age range of

21 the victims in Glogova 1.

22 A. I can with reference to my report.

23 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, perhaps with leave of the Court, the

24 witness can refer to his report.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: And while the gentleman is looking at the report,

Page 7183

1 just again -- and I certainly don't mind taking two or three days with

2 this material. However, if a lot of these reports have been brought in

3 through 92 bis and as the Prosecutor -- all of them have argued

4 continuously that the Defence is wasting time by asking questions, I don't

5 see why we need a summary witness to summarise 92 bis material that has

6 been entered by the Court. Again, I don't object I don't want to seem as

7 if I'm trying to minimise the impact or -- of the gentleman's work. But

8 again, if the essence is on the part of the Prosecution simply to sort of

9 inflame the situation more than it is, then I would object to this.

10 Because a lot of this material has come in through 92 bis, then it's

11 there. And There's no need to be using this witness just to summarise 92

12 bis material.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, in principle, I agree with you, Mr. Karnavas.

14 But on this particular question, I think to refresh the memory of this

15 witness, the witness is allowed to make some reference to his report. Of

16 course there is no need to re-introduce those reports again. And in this

17 situation, Mr. Karnavas, I believe that you have the full right to

18 cross-examine this witness.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand that, Your Honour. Of course we've

20 always maintained that these incidents occurred. We haven't challenged

21 the grave sites. But I do understand that. Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa, since the Defence counsel, I believe

23 two of them, have already indicated that they did not challenge those

24 facts. So maybe you could further streamline your direct examination.

25 MS. ISSA: I will do my best, Your Honour. That was -- the last

Page 7184

1 question was simply by way of example. I wasn't going to go through --

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed.

3 MS. ISSA: I take Your Honour's point.

4 Q. Mr. Manning, have you found that reference?

5 A. Yes, Your Honours, and I can be brief. Of the bodies autopsied at

6 Glogova 1, excluding those from grave L which we don't need to go into for

7 the interests of time. One individual was determined to be between 13 to

8 17 years of age, four individuals between 15 and 24 years of age, and 19

9 were in the 25 plus category.

10 Q. Thank you. And this information is contained in which report,

11 just for our -- for ease of reference?

12 A. The age references are contained in the reports of the

13 pathologist, in this case Dr. John Clark.

14 Q. Turning then to the issue of cause of death, Mr. Manning, can you

15 indicate what were the findings largely, in brief?

16 A. In brief, the cause of death was normally defined as multiple gun

17 shot wounds or gun shot wounds. A significant proportion of the

18 individuals were identified as -- that was a cause of death. Other causes

19 of death were gun shot wound and blast injury, or blast injury alone. A

20 significant proportion of the individuals were determined to have died of

21 causes -- unspecified causes -- undetermined causes, sorry.

22 Q. All right. Then going back to Exhibit 549/107. Can you indicate

23 just briefly what is the significance of this photograph as to the nature

24 of the cause of death.

25 A. This photograph shows not only the robbing process in the grave,

Page 7185

1 but if you see the individuals, particularly the one at the top of the

2 grave, the skeleton there, his arms are in a posture. Many of the

3 individuals have their arms in that posture because they were ligatured,

4 they were tied, and there was evidence located at Kozluk mass grave,

5 indicating the victims had been shot in situ. That is, bullet wounds to

6 the skull and body and corresponding bullets below the bodies. The

7 majority of the individuals in this photograph have their arms tied behind

8 their backs.

9 Q. Were there -- was there any grave site where the cause of death

10 was determined as being different from the other graves?

11 A. There was some difference as to percentage, but the cause of death

12 in the majority of cases was gun shot wound and/or blast injury. And in

13 some cases there were indications that cause of death were unknown. There

14 were small numbers of blunt force trauma indicated. But in all, gun shot

15 injury was the cause of death, the main cause of death.

16 Q. And in which grave or graves were the blast injuries found?

17 A. Specifically they were found within the Glogova 1 and 2 graves.

18 Also, the Branjevo Military Farm graves, and the corresponding secondary

19 grave, particularly Zeleni Jadar 5 and 6, evidence of blast injuries were

20 found. Although that was difficult to ascertain in the graves due to the

21 breaking up of the bodies.

22 Q. Looking at page 2 of your report, Exhibit 554, in relation to the

23 2001 findings, you noted down the breakdown of the number of persons who

24 died of various injuries such as gun shot wounds. Those numbers do not

25 appear to match with the MNI or the MMNI that we saw earlier. Can you

Page 7186

1 explain that.

2 A. Effectively, it's the same problem as I detailed before with the

3 bodies being broken up. The cause of death indicated in the reports is a

4 sign where it's possible if you have an individual who is -- his skull is

5 missing, perhaps, and there are no visible injuries to the rest of his

6 body, you can't assign a cause of death. However the skull might have a

7 bullet wound to the skull, or the skull might found without the rest of

8 the body with a large bullet hole in it indicating the cause of death of

9 that individual's gun shot injury. If you add all those figures up you

10 get more than the MMNI or the MNI. I think that represents a

11 representation of the large number of bodies represented by these body

12 pars, but also indicates on occasion the example I used where you have a

13 skull which has a clear cause of death and you have a body without a skull

14 with a clear cause of death, that body -- those two body parts can be

15 counted twice as cause of death.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, using the map, can you just give us a brief

17 overview, Mr. Manning, of some of the methods used to link the primary and

18 secondary graves. I know you mentioned it earlier, but if you can just

19 verbally tell us what those methods were.

20 A. Your Honours, as I said, perhaps the Kozluk is a good indication.

21 We found bottle labels and thousands and thousands of pieces of broken

22 green glass. In fact the Kozluk execution point, a large number of the

23 bodies were killed on fields of broken green glass and bottle labels,

24 which corresponded to a bottle factory which was approximately one and a

25 half kilometres away in the town of Kozluk, or near the town of Kozluk.

Page 7187

1 Those bottle labels and thousands of pieces of broken glass were

2 transported to the secondary grave and were located amongst the bodies in

3 that grave. Also located in the secondary graves that was exhumed,

4 Cancari road 3, were the same bottle labels with the address of the bottle

5 factory. Also used in linking the graves was a soil and pollen analysis.

6 Dr. Tony Brown examined the soil from the grave, from the secondary grave.

7 Using his expertise in relation to the pollen present, the type of soil,

8 the granular part of the soil, the microfossils, et cetera, he established

9 that the soil type at Kozluk was significantly different to the area of

10 Cancari road. However the soil in the Cancari 3 grave was significantly

11 different and it matched that at Kozluk. Therefore, the soil had been

12 taken along with the bodies and the broken glass and the bottle labels

13 from Kozluk to Cancari road 3.

14 Similarly, the shell cases that were located in and amongst the

15 bodies in the grave, the Kozluk grave, were transported when the grave was

16 robbed and placed in Cancari 3. We collected those shell cases and a

17 large number was sent to the American Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms lab

18 where they examined the ejector marks on those shell cases. Those ejector

19 marks are formed when the shell case is thrown from the weapon, and they

20 are individual to that weapon, microscopically. They were able to match

21 the shell cases from the Kozluk primary grave with those in the Cancari 3

22 primary grave, showing that the shell casings were fired by the same

23 weapon.

24 Similarly, blindfolds and cloth ligatures were collected from both

25 sites. They were examined by the Dutch Forensic Institute. Dr. Susie

Page 7188

1 Meljaz [phoen] examined those blindfolds and grouped them into blindfolds

2 and cloth ligatures which were significantly the same. She continued her

3 investigation and identified those blindfolds and cloth ligatures which

4 were indistinguishable from each other. And thence provided a link from

5 the primary grave, type of blindfold used, to the secondary grave, type of

6 blindfold and cloth ligature used.

7 Q. Thank you. Now, dealing then with the blindfolds and ligatures,

8 aside from using them to link the primary and secondary graves, is there

9 any significance to locating the ligatures in general?

10 A. Well, clearly the individuals that were blindfolded and ligatured,

11 and some were blindfolded and ligatured, were executed. A cause of death

12 would be fairly clear, that they were murdered. In many instances we

13 found blindfolds in situ on the skull with a corresponding bullet wound to

14 the skull and a corresponding hole to the blindfold, which indicated that

15 they had been shot through the blindfold through the head.

16 Q. Thank you. How many blindfolds in total were found in the various

17 mass graves?

18 A. I examined all the cloth blindfolds, and I made a conservative

19 count of them, which is 448. However, I did eliminate quite a number.

20 Q. Why do you say it's a conservative count?

21 A. I examined not only the autopsy and exhumation records and the

22 photographs and the body sheets and the various documents, but also I

23 physically finished the artifacts. And I tried to be very conservative

24 and only produce a blindfold or a ligature as an exhibit which I could

25 categorically prove had been either on a skull very closely associated to

Page 7189

1 a body, had perhaps human hair on it or a bullet wound corresponding to a

2 wound on the skull, or where that documentary and photographic path was

3 complete, if there was a blindfold identified at the grave site but

4 because of the transportation of the body or the examination or the simple

5 errors that can occur in such a massive process, that chain of custody was

6 lost, I didn't count that item or artifact. If it was described as a

7 possible blindfold or a possible ligature and I couldn't corroborate that,

8 then I would discount it. I also discounted the large number of cloth

9 blindfolds collected at the Grbavci school and also near the Orahovac mass

10 graves in 1996. I had not been part of that process, and there had been

11 collected and a representative sample taken, so I ignored those

12 blindfolds. I believe 219.

13 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 650 which is a chart that's entitled

14 "Blindfolds and Ligatures Located 1996 to 2001." Looking at the bottom

15 of the chart with respect to blindfolds, can you very briefly explain the

16 different exhumation sites where the blindfolds and the cloth material was

17 located.

18 A. If you look at this table, it indicates the number of blindfolds

19 that were located, the graves that it was located in, and the -- where the

20 blindfolds were located, either the head or the face, closely associated

21 with the body or loose in the grave. That is, not directly associated

22 with the body and the various totals for that. Similarly on the top of

23 the table, ligatures are described in the same manner.

24 Q. Are you able to indicate the sites where blindfolds were found in

25 terms -- in the sense of making a distinction between the primary and the

Page 7190

1 secondary graves?

2 A. Yes, the primary grave of Branjevo Military Farm, two blindfolds

3 were located. The Orahovac 1 mass grave site, which is a primary site,

4 138 were found. Orahovac 2, which again is a primary site, 107 were

5 found. At the Orahovac 2C, which is connected to 2, 40 blindfolds were

6 found, and that's again a primary site. And at the Kozluk primary site,

7 55 were located. And at the Glogova 1 primary mass grave, 3 possible

8 blindfolds were located.

9 Q. And why are they listed as possible?

10 A. They were packing tape, plastic packing tape, which the chief

11 archaeologist described as either a blindfold or perhaps a gag. They were

12 around the eyes, but they had deteriorated to such a point and

13 particularly as they were exhumed that they started to fall apart before

14 analysed, if you like. Therefore, we couldn't conclusively conclude that

15 they were blindfolds.

16 Q. Turning next to Exhibit 560, can you indicate what this -- I think

17 that's the wrong exhibit on the screen. If we can refer to another

18 exhibit, Exhibit 547/96.

19 A. This is a photograph taken at the Visoko mortuary. It represents

20 an individual who was designated as body 41 from the Lazete Orahovac 2

21 grave which was exhumed in 1996. You can see the individual has a cloth

22 blindfold which stretches across his eyes. It is one of the blindfolds

23 that has a specific pattern which was reoccurring across quite a number of

24 the graves.

25 Q. Can you explain how these photographs came into existence and what

Page 7191

1 ultimately happens with the items that were found on the bodies?

2 A. This is an initial photograph on receipt at the mortuary of the

3 body. The body was then examined by the pathologist. The blindfold and

4 other artifacts are removed, the clothing is removed and cleaned. The

5 pathologist then examines the body and he then takes the clothing which

6 has been cleaned and examines it with the body in an attempt to identify

7 evidence such as bullet wounds through the blindfold or clothing. The

8 artefacts such as this blindfold are then processed by the scene of crime

9 officers and then ultimately processed through the Tribunal.

10 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 557, which I believe is on the easel

11 there, collage, can you explain what this exhibit represents.

12 A. Your Honours, this is a collage of all the blindfolds that were

13 located amongst the Srebrenica-related graves. I prepared this in grave

14 order, if you like. So the Branjevo Military Farm is first. Its related

15 secondary grave of Cancari 12 is next and so on and so on. It represents

16 a single photograph of each blindfold; there are no duplications. And one

17 thing it indicates is the striking similarity between some types of

18 blindfolds and some types of blindfolds across the various graves,

19 including the matched primaries but also the other primaries and

20 secondaries.

21 Q. Each grave is listed there with the different blindfolds following

22 depicted. Is that correct?

23 A. That's correct. As I say, the primary grave is first, such as

24 Orahovac, Lazete 2, and then the secondary graves connected to that grave

25 such as Hodzici 3, 4, and Hodzici 5. And the primary grave of Kozluk, the

Page 7192

1 related secondary grave of Cancari road 3. And last is the three,

2 described as "possible blindfolds" from Glogova.

3 MS. ISSA: Perhaps with the assistance of Madam Usher we can refer

4 to Exhibit 558.

5 Q. I understand, Mr. Manning, that there were some ligatures found in

6 the mass graves. Is that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Total number of the ligatures that were found.

9 A. 423 ligatures were located amongst the mass graves. And again, on

10 the table I present the numbers where they were located. And this is a

11 similar collage showing again the ligatures, exactly the same format. The

12 primary grave, the related secondary grave. It represents a single

13 photograph of the ligatures, although I believe if you look at the Glogova

14 1 ligatures, in this case two men were ligatured together. They were both

15 tied and then they were both tied to each other in pairs. So that

16 represents each of those pairs and the ligatures that bind them.

17 MS. ISSA: And Your Honours, Exhibits 545 through 548 and 550

18 contain the individual images that are depicted in this collage as well as

19 the previous one we saw of all the blindfolds and ligatures.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Manning, the figure of 423, is that a conservative or a

21 liberal figure?

22 A. Again, I used the same methodology that I used to provide an

23 accurate count of the blindfolds. Some ligatures were not sufficiently

24 described or photographed, and I excluded them. Where ligatures were made

25 of the same material as blindfolds, it was quite clear because of the

Page 7193

1 construction, the width of the circles and the number of circles, that

2 they were a ligature rather than a blindfold. But when they were broken

3 to the point that I couldn't tell that, then I would exclude them as

4 either a blindfold or a ligature.

5 Q. Referring back to Exhibit 650, the chart of the blindfolds and

6 ligatures, can you just take us very briefly through the top portion of

7 the chart entitled "ligatures." How many were found in the various

8 primary and secondary grave sites.

9 A. Again, the primary grave are listed. Cerska, 48 individuals were

10 found to be bound; Nova Kasaba 1996, 27 individuals; Orahovac 1 or Zeleni

11 1, there was four individuals; Orahovac 2 was one individual, again they

12 are primary graves; Branjevo Military Farm, 83 ligatures were located; the

13 primary grave of Petkovci dam, one was located; at the grave at Kozluk,

14 168 ligatures were located; and at the Glogova 1, as I have previously

15 explained, 12 sets of ligatures were located, double ligatures if you

16 like, and that was a primary grave.

17 Q. Can you elaborate on that, the 12 sets of ligatures that were

18 located. When you say there were 12 sets, what do you mean by that?

19 A. That grave was designated as grave L. I was present when that

20 grave was located and exhumed. And what we found was that an individual

21 had been tied at the wrist by a string ligature. Another individual had

22 been tied at the wrist by a string ligature and those two ligatures were

23 then tied together. So you had two adult males tied together. That

24 continued, so there were six sets of adults tied together in pairs. And

25 the subsequent autopsy of those bodies or the initial examination of those

Page 7194

1 bodies, I was present at the Visoko mortuary. And in each of those cases,

2 the individuals had been shot in the head. Some had been shot again in

3 the body. And we found some shell cases and some bullet -- bullets within

4 the grave, indicating that they had been shot in situ. That was also

5 supported by the posture of the individuals who had seemed to have fallen

6 into the grave as they were tied together.

7 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 550/186, can you indicate what that

8 represents.

9 A. This is a photograph at the Visoko mortuary, and it represents two

10 bodies or two arms -- sets of arms of the bodies. On the left is the body

11 designated as 301 and you can see that the ligatures go around the two

12 bones of each forearm. Then that ligature extends across to two bones of

13 one forearm of the other individual, body 302. In this image, they simply

14 haven't placed the other set of arms because they had come loose from the

15 binding. But this represents the two individuals that were bound and then

16 bound together.

17 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 550/183.

18 A. This is grave L. And the reason why that photograph we saw

19 previously was shown is that it's very difficult to see in these graves

20 what's actually happening. But if you look at the first individual, his

21 head is pointing to the right of the photo and his arms are in that

22 familiar posture, that they're bound behind his back. If you look to the

23 left top of the photograph, you can see another set of arms running up to

24 an elbow in a shirt; that's the other individual who was behind him. And

25 there was evidence of some other string ligature surrounding their wrists

Page 7195

1 where they were joined. And as indicated, the skull is fractured badly in

2 this individual. And as I said, I saw the autopsy, which indicated that

3 they had been shot in the head. This grave was a long, thin grave, and

4 this process of twins tied together and killed or dead in a grave

5 progressed up the length of the grave.

6 Q. Now, Mr. Manning, you mentioned in describing grave L, which was a

7 particular subgrave of Glogova, that these individuals were tied with a

8 string ligature. Were there other types of material used as ligature in

9 the various graves?

10 A. Yes. There were three main types of ligature used, although some

11 types of material was opportunistically used such as a cloth sack. But in

12 some graves such as this one, string ligatures were used. Twine. Also,

13 wire was used, such as in Cerska. And in Nova Kasaba 96 where all the

14 ligatures were of fencing wire. And as I indicated before, ligatures were

15 made of cloth, similar material to some of the blindfolds, individuals

16 were bound by cloth.

17 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 545/114, can you indicate what this

18 photograph represents and coming from which grave.

19 A. Again, this is a photo at the mortuary at Visoko, and it is a

20 cloth ligature. It is showing the arm of one individual designated as body

21 719. You can see that the ligature had wrapped around his wrist more than

22 once, and the other circle that's visible was wrapped around the other

23 arm, which in this instance is not visible. This was quite usual to see,

24 cloth ligatures used in this figure of 8, and that's one reason I was able

25 to ascertain if they were loose whether they were a ligature or a

Page 7196

1 blindfold.

2 Q. And this is coming from which grave?

3 A. From the Kozluk grave, the one on the Drina river with the green

4 glass.

5 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 549/087 what does this photograph

6 indicate?

7 A. This is the Nova Kasaba 1996 mass grave, which was exhumed in 1996

8 clearly, hence the flesh condition of the body. This is behind the man's

9 back, you can see his wrists crossed over, and very, very tightly bound by

10 wire ligature which extends past the number there. And as I said, all the

11 ligatures in Nova Kasaba 1996 were of wire.

12 Q. Thank you. In dealing -- moving on then to another area, and that

13 is the area of identification, I'm going to be asking you about two

14 categories of identification. Firstly, we'll be dealing with the

15 identification of a place where the victims came from. And secondly,

16 we'll be dealing with what led to the identity of the victims themselves.

17 Can you first of all tell us, Mr. Manning, whether the victims in

18 those graves were identified as having come from a particular place.

19 A. Yes. In almost every single grave we found some form of

20 identification or some indication that the individuals in the grave were

21 from Srebrenica. And indeed, one of the processes that we did when we

22 first exhumed a body was to effectively try and prove that they weren't

23 from Srebrenica. We were conscious that we didn't always -- we weren't

24 always sure that we found the grave connected to Srebrenica. So we would

25 go through the belongings, we would search through the identification

Page 7197

1 materials, until we found something that indicated a connection to

2 Srebrenica, be it an identification book, an inscribed artefact or an

3 identification document which matched an individual reported as missing

4 from Srebrenica.

5 Q. Can you -- have the artefacts linked to Srebrenica been located in

6 all the primary mass graves or the secondary mass graves?

7 A. All the graves that I speak of have been linked to Srebrenica, but

8 not all of the graves identification material has been identified. I

9 believe in the case of Konjevic Polje 2, which is a small mass grave, no

10 identification material was found. But the creation date matched

11 Srebrenica. But in the case of the other graves, some material was

12 located, which indicated a connection to Srebrenica. Such connections

13 were not only identifications, but Dutch newspapers, Dutch medicine, Dutch

14 medical reports, all connected with the DutchBat base at Srebrenica were

15 all connected to the -- before July of 1995, such as Dutch newspapers from

16 the month before.

17 Q. Turning then to some of the exhibits that illustrate these types

18 of artefacts, Exhibit 549/095. Can you indicate, Mr. Manning, what this

19 photograph depicts.

20 A. Your Honours, this is a necklace with a medallion on it. This was

21 located in the Cerska mass grave which was exhumed in 1996. This artefact

22 was found in 1996 and led to the identification of an individual who was

23 identified as Cerska 60. The families of the missing from Srebrenica were

24 called upon by the organisation Physicians for Human Rights and the Red

25 Cross to make reports in relation to the missing, in relation to the dead.

Page 7198

1 Part of that was to describe the belongings of the victims, describe

2 things that would help in the identification process. One woman was able

3 to make a drawing of a pendant which she had given her son, and she

4 described that pendant; she drew a picture of it. And she also indicated

5 that it had been knotted, a knot had been placed in the chain. He was a

6 young male, I think 16 years of age and the pendant was too long. So she

7 saw him knot it and place it around his neck. That pendant, as you see

8 here with the S on it and the knot, was located on the body. That was

9 shown eventually to the family, and she was able to immediately identify

10 that artefact that she had given to her son. And as a result, further

11 examination, such as the examination of ante- and post-mortem data

12 established that the individual Cerska 60 was indeed her son. And that

13 identification came about because of this family gift.

14 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 549/095A, can you identify what this

15 document is.

16 A. This is a page from the ICRC/PHR missing list. I believe this is

17 the version produced by the ICTY, and it shows a BAS [phoen] number which

18 is a number assigned to a missing person, the name of the missing person,

19 the gender, date and place of birth, and disappearance. And this

20 indicates the individual who was identified, highlighted here as Elizabet

21 Selimovic, his date of birth, from Srebrenica, and missing in the year of

22 the -- this is what the document or type of document we used when we

23 located identifications. We sought to match those to lists of missings --

24 missing people and confirm the identity of those individuals.

25 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 549/093, what does this photograph depict?

Page 7199

1 A. This is actually an artificial leg which was removed from a body

2 in the Pilica or Branjevo Military Farm grave in 1996. It was taken from

3 a body. The significance of this artefact is that the tape that you see

4 binding the leg, repairing the leg is marked Unis Feros Srebrenica and

5 Yugoslavia. It's a type of packing tape which I am familiar with. And I

6 believe that the Unis Feros factory is located in or near Potocari, again

7 a clear indication that this individual had a connection to Srebrenica.

8 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 549/093A, what is the significance of this

9 document?

10 A. Again, this is a missing persons' list. The fact that there was

11 an official leg on an individual significantly lowers the range of who he

12 might be amongst the missing persons. So the artificial leg not only

13 provided a link to Srebrenica, but it provided assistance in identifying

14 that individual who was wearing that artificial leg as this individual.

15 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 656, what does this photograph depict?

16 A. This is a watch found in the secondary grave of Zeleni Jadar 6.

17 Again, that's the grave or one of the graves connected to Glogova and

18 hence the warehouse. It was located in the grave, not connected to a

19 body. And it has an inscription which includes the words "Unis Feros"

20 Srebrenica and the year 1985 [sic]. Again, that's the Unis Feros that's

21 indicated on the packing tape from the leg and a clear indication that

22 this individual is connected to Srebrenica.

23 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 657. What does this photograph depict?

24 A. This is a good example of the type of identifications we found

25 later on in the exhumation process. It has deteriorated quite a

Page 7200

1 significant amount. But if you see in the top left-hand side, you can see

2 the word "Srebrenica." Often when we removed these documents from the

3 grave they would fade as they were exposed to the oxygen and the light.

4 In examining, we saw that this was connected to Srebrenica, and has the

5 name of an individual, his date of birth.

6 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 658. What is the significance of this

7 document?

8 A. Again, the list of the missing from Srebrenica, and it indicates

9 the individual who was identified from that identification booklet as

10 listed as missing following the fall of Srebrenica.

11 Q. All right. And who is that?

12 A. Dahmo Kadric.

13 Q. Sorry, half-way down the page.

14 A. It's, if you like, bears 912181/2, Dahmo Kadric, a male. His date

15 of birth is not indicated in full in this version of the document; however

16 the year of birth is clearly indicated.

17 Q. Is the name -- that same name on the wallet or in the photograph

18 we saw previously?

19 A. Yes, when you examine that identification booklet, it has that

20 name on it and the date of birth, complete date of birth of Dahmo Kadric.

21 Q. Turning then to the issue of religion, or faith, in the course of

22 exhumations, Mr. Manning, can you tell us whether there were any artefacts

23 that indicated what faith the victims belonged to.

24 A. Your Honours, in almost all the graves we located clear evidence

25 with an affiliation of the Muslim faith, which included copies of the

Page 7201

1 Koran, Koranic texts, prayer beads. And in fact, we found nothing which

2 would indicate a different religious affinity. We either found no

3 artefacts or we found artefacts which indicated an Islamic or Muslim

4 connection.

5 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 549/110. By way of example, what does

6 this photograph depict?

7 A. This is a photograph of an artefact located on -- in the Hodzici

8 secondary grave, connected to the Orahovac primary graves. It is taken at

9 the mortuary and it shows on the bottom right-hand -- a packet which

10 contained the Islamic verses on the left. This was a reasonably good

11 example of what we would find. We would also find lockets with miniature

12 Korans or parts of the Koran in them.

13 Q. Moving on then to the issue of the photographs found in the

14 graves, can you tell the Chamber whether there were any photos found

15 during the course of exhumations and where, if so, where?

16 A. We found a significant amount of photographs mainly in the wallets

17 of the individuals or loose in the graves. Many of those photographs were

18 the standard photographs that you or I would carry, the wives, children,

19 significant people. In the early days, those photographs were able to be

20 recovered quite easily. As the exhumations continued, a number of those

21 items were deteriorating, but we did manage to collect quite a number of

22 photographs and documents from the wallets or pockets or possessions of

23 the individuals. These photographs include, as I say, photographs of what

24 I assume to be family members.

25 Q. And what was the significance of finding the photographs among the

Page 7202

1 individuals?

2 A. In a similar way to the chain, the medallion, they were able to

3 help us identify, or try to identify the individuals located within the

4 graves. Attempts were made to show those artefacts to family members.

5 And books were produced in Bosnia of artefacts and clothing which had been

6 located, distributed amongst the surviving families and widows in an

7 attempt to identify the bodies. If an artefact was identified, then that

8 would lead to an examination which would hopefully lead to an

9 identification.

10 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 549/001, can you indicate what this

11 photograph depicts?

12 A. This is a photograph located in the Lazete 2 Orahovac 2 primary

13 mass grave. It's one of at least 12 items located on body 36. And it's,

14 as I say, a family photograph. It's just one of the photographs, the many

15 photographs, in this instance that we found which we would hope to be able

16 to use to identify the victims. I just indicate on that photograph where

17 there's a date on the top right-hand corner in red 5/9/96. That was the

18 mortuary photograph. That's not part of the photograph found in that

19 grave. So that's a later addition from the exhumations of taking a

20 photograph of a photograph.

21 Q. Is there any effect to removing the bodies from the primary and

22 secondary graves on the -- on physical evidence such as photographs?

23 A. As I said, the disruption to the bodies was quite massive,

24 including the loss of these sort of artefacts. They were either torn from

25 the bodies or they were exposed to the soil and the air and the water, et

Page 7203

1 cetera. But also you would find a set of legs with an identification in

2 the pocket. But you wouldn't be able to match that to the rest of the

3 body, so it made it much more difficult.

4 Q. Now, Mr. Manning, the Court has heard that documents and

5 belongings were actually taken from the men during their detention. In

6 relation to the number of bodies in graves, how many such documents did

7 you find?

8 A. It's very difficult for me to say. We found a significant number,

9 but we didn't find many significant belongings such as backpacks or bags

10 or belongings. These were things that were held in pockets or in coat

11 pockets. I would have to examine in excess of 10.000 exhibit reports to

12 indicate how many specific items such as this were located.

13 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 549/006, can you indicate what this

14 depicts and what its significance is.

15 A. Again, this is a photograph from body 236 at Orahovac primary

16 grave; it's item 12. Again, it's a photograph of a child. This set of

17 photographs were bound together by this tape, and this is the same Unis

18 Feros tape that you see on the artificial tape. And again, not only is it

19 hopefully showing a family member that could be a source of

20 identification, but it links this individual again to Srebrenica.

21 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 549/018. Can you indicate what that

22 depicts and the significance, please.

23 A. Exactly the same. It's from a different grave and it indicates,

24 unfortunately, the deterioration of the photos that happens. This is from

25 body 11 at Branjevo Military Farm. It shows a normal family gathering.

Page 7204

1 We tried to preserve this material as much as we could because we hoped to

2 use it for identification.

3 Q. And has this photograph led to the identification of an

4 individual?

5 A. Yes, I believe it has.

6 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 549/018A, are you able to tell us, looking

7 at that document, which is the IC -- a page from the ICRC list, who that

8 individual was?

9 A. Yes, I believe from the examination conducted that the body was

10 identified as Elizabet Selimovic with a date of birth of the 3rd of

11 January, 1962.

12 Q. Is that a male or female?

13 A. That's a male.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I think it might be an appropriate time to

16 take the break.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's time for a break and we'll resume at 12.30

18 --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.

21 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Manning, just for a few more points that I would like to

23 go over with you. You mentioned earlier grave L, the 12 bodies that were

24 tied together by twos. I'm not sure whether or not you recall this, but

25 do you have any information as to when the grave -- when grave L was

Page 7205

1 created by virtue of the aerial imagery that you reviewed earlier?

2 A. Professor Richard Wright, in exhuming that grave, along with the

3 rest of Glogova 1, examined the aerial imagery. And in his report he

4 indicated that that grave had to be created after the other graves --

5 well, the majority of the other graves. Without checking his report, I

6 believe it was after the 17th of July there was a window of creation time

7 that had to be after the 17th up until -- and I can't recall the dates at

8 the moment. I apologise. But it was certainly created after the 17th,

9 perhaps 19th or 20th.

10 Q. Thank you. You mentioned -- just dealing with the linking of the

11 primary and secondary graves, you've given us a very good overview in the

12 manner in which these graves were linked. Just very briefly referring to

13 Exhibit -- sorry, I've lost my page -- 556. Can you just identify that

14 very briefly for us. We're not going to go into it in detail since you've

15 done this already.

16 A. Your Honours, this is a table I created, basically a different

17 representation of the map. It just highlights along the top the primary

18 mass graves, or in the case of the warehouse, the Kravica warehouse, the

19 execution point, the related primary grave in that case. And then the

20 related secondary graves flowing on from that.

21 Q. And in dealing with the shell casing, you mentioned that some of

22 the primary graves were connected to secondary graves via shell casing.

23 Just by way of example, turning then to Exhibit 559, can you indicate what

24 that depicts.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness make a pause of 2 seconds

Page 7206

1 before answering.

2 THE WITNESS: My apologies.

3 This is a photograph of a body at Kozluk mass grave. I recognise

4 it to be body 501. It's a blindfolded and ligatured body, and you can see

5 the green glass that I spoke of before, even though it's a black and white

6 image. But of interest in this photograph is in the centre, perhaps down

7 to the right, is a shell case located next to that body. When this body

8 was exhumed, that shell case was located there and it's an example of the

9 shell cases that we located amongst the bodies and amongst the graves,

10 which were then examined by the ATF in America.

11 Q. All right. And you've indicated that the shell casings were in

12 fact used to link primary and secondary graves. Was there a report

13 submitted by the bureau of alcohol and tobacco firearms?

14 A. Yes. By experts, including Mr. Martin Ols of that bureau.

15 Q. And that report is at Exhibit 562. You reviewed this report,

16 Mr. Manning?

17 A. Yes, I did. I reviewed the result of that report. I also had

18 detailed conversations with Mr. Ols and other members of the ATF in

19 relation to the examination.

20 Q. Can you very briefly describe the findings in the report?

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, again --

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may interrupt. This material came in through

24 92 bis. Now, the reason it came in is because we didn't challenge or we

25 weren't challenging at the time. However, now it appears they're trying

Page 7207

1 to give some validation to that report through this gentleman, who I

2 assumed was coming here to testify about the burial process and what he

3 did. Now he's being used as a summary witness to resummarise the entire

4 Prosecution's case. I do object to him commenting about the reports

5 unless he generated those particular reports, otherwise we can read the

6 reports, the Court can draw its own conclusions from the reports. There

7 is no need to waste time with this gentleman going over material that was

8 introduced through 92 bis at the behest of the Prosecution. If they

9 wanted to do a long, delayed process of bringing in all the individuals

10 and getting all those reports in through the individuals, they could have

11 brought them. Instead, they chose another way. Now they're trying to

12 revisit all those reports and all those experts through this gentleman.

13 And if they didn't want to go through the front door, Your Honour, they

14 shouldn't be trying to get through the back door or through the basement

15 window at this point.

16 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Issa?

17 MS. ISSA: Yes, Your Honour. I am not going through all the

18 reports. The reason I'm referring to this report specifically is because

19 this was one of the reports that actually was not put in through the 92

20 bis or 94 bis pursuant to that ruling that I referred to earlier and we

21 are seeking to tender it. So I wanted to very briefly give it a bit of

22 context. And as I recall Your Honour's ruling, the Prosecution was

23 permitted to have Mr. Manning testify about this report and seek to tender

24 it through Mr. Manning. And I can find the passage in the ruling for

25 Your Honour, if you would like me to, but that's the reason I'm referring

Page 7208

1 specifically to this report.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas, very briefly.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: As I said, they didn't want to go through the front

4 door; now they're trying to go through the back door. They could have

5 easily asked to have this come in through 92 bis. In all likelihood,

6 because I'm rather familiar with this sort of forensic evidence as opposed

7 to what we were dealing with yesterday, demographics, I probably would not

8 have objected. But now I do object to using this gentleman here who is

9 not a forensics expert. He's certainly not a ballistician. We're

10 discussing this based on hearsay that he heard from their expert. So I

11 think if they are trying to lay a foundation, I guess I'll wait, I'll

12 listen, and at some point, I probably will object because it wasn't

13 brought in through the avenues in which they should have brought it in

14 initially.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Issa, on this issue, I agree with the

16 Defence counsel. You cannot introduce a report written by somebody else

17 through this witness. And in your question, it's very general. Unless

18 you find something specifically related to the question you asked

19 previously. So please, if you want to continue, please ask a specific

20 question.

21 MS. ISSA: All right, Your Honour. Perhaps I'll just move on.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

23 MS. ISSA: And if need be, I can return to the point -- I may not.

24 Q. Moving then on, sir, to Exhibit 648.

25 MS. ISSA: Perhaps, Your Honour, while we're trying to find that

Page 7209

1 exhibit we can move on to another area to save time, and if need be we can

2 return to that exhibit.

3 Q. Now, you indicated, Mr. Manning, that a number of graves were

4 actually linked via the shell casing comparisons. Did -- was there a time

5 when they actually tested guns from the Bratunac Brigade or weapons

6 linking them to a particular grave site? Did that ever occur, to your

7 knowledge?

8 A. Your Honours, I was involved in a major part of that process in

9 which weapons were seized from the Bratunac Brigade, the Zvornik Brigade,

10 and other brigades or units in the area of Srebrenica. Those weapons were

11 test fired and shell cases were collected with the intention of comparing

12 shell cases to the shell cases located within the graves. That was

13 conducted by Mr. Ols and his associates. I do not recall the ultimate

14 outcome, but I understand it was unsuccessful.

15 Q. Thank you. Just then turning back to Exhibit 648 very briefly.

16 Can you indicate, sir, exactly what that chart is, just very briefly.

17 A. I produced this chart following my examination of the ATF report.

18 And on the basis of that report, I indicated which graves had been linked

19 via that shell case examination, the Kravica warehouse, Zeleni Jadar 5,

20 Cerska 2, parts of the Cerska grave itself, the Lazete to the Hodzici

21 secondary graves, the dam -- to part of the dam and Kozluk, primary grave

22 to Cancari road 3. The significance of perhaps linking the Cerska grave

23 to the Cerska surface roadway and north side of the road was that there

24 was an indication that the execution had happened at the side of the

25 grave. This was comparing the shell cases located within the grave to

Page 7210

1 those where we believe the executionists had stood, and those shell cases

2 matched.

3 Q. Can you indicate, Mr. Manning, what you're relying upon in

4 providing that analysis or those results that those shell casings matched?

5 A. Yes, from examining Mr. Ols's report he indicated laboratory

6 numbers. They didn't mean anything to the investigations team, so we -- I

7 examined the laboratory numbers, matched them to the artefacts that we had

8 sent them and then produced this table of the results of that examination.

9 Q. And at this point, Mr. Manning, are you able to briefly describe

10 the findings of that report or elaborate on what you've indicated earlier

11 in relation to matching -- the way in which the shell casings were

12 matched?

13 A. I think I indicated before that the examination consisted of a

14 microscopic examination of the ejector marks which are found on the shell

15 case where the weapon flings the shell case out. It strikes it with a

16 piece of metal, marks it. Each microscopically-examined mark should be

17 the same from same weapon. This would indicate that if a shell case was

18 found at a primary grave and a secondary grave, either the shell cases

19 were moved from the primary to the secondary or the weapon that fired both

20 shell cases was at both locations.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, given that we've already discussed the other

22 links, blindfolds, ligatures, soil comparisons, and the green glass, I

23 don't propose to go over that again. Now, I notice on the map you do have

24 a link at the very -- at the southern-most point of the map between

25 Glogova and Zeleni Jadar as being linked through artefacts. Can you

Page 7211

1 describe the nature of the -- this artefact connection just to remind us.

2 A. Your Honours, as I said, there were a significant amount of

3 artefacts located in the Glogova graves, the primary graves, which were

4 identical to those in the Kravica warehouse. Those artefacts were seen at

5 the Zeleni Jadar 5 grave but very strongly at the Zeleni Jadar 6 grave. I

6 was present for a significant part of that exhumation, and we found pieces

7 of the building structure itself, pieces of metal, pieces of what we call

8 a fin, a decorative part of the warehouse, including layers of paint and

9 foam insulation material from the wall of the warehouse. Those materials

10 were found in the Zeleni Jadar 6 grave. They matched those significantly

11 found in Glogova 1 and 2 and they matched those still present at the

12 warehouse. So we based that connection predominantly on artefacts.

13 Q. And was any evidence collected at the site aside -- leaving aside

14 the artefacts, was there any other evidence collected at the Kravica

15 warehouse?

16 A. Yes. The -- apart from artefacts which we used to compare from

17 the primary grave and the secondary graves, the Pilica -- sorry, the

18 Kravica warehouse was examined by the U.S. Naval criminal investigations

19 service in 1996. And suspected human blood and human tissue samples were

20 taken along with suspected explosive residue samples.

21 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 10.11.

22 While we're trying to find the exhibit, Mr. Manning, can you

23 describe how the blood samples were collected, very briefly.

24 A. I would indicate that this is from the examination of the reports

25 by the U.S. Naval investigation service. I wasn't present. They were

Page 7212

1 obtained by simply scraping the residue from surface, from the walls and

2 the floor and placed into appropriate paper containers, sealed and

3 processed. That was for the collection of the blood and residue.

4 Q. All right. Now, in addition to the blood and residue, was there

5 any other material collected or observed at the warehouse that indicated

6 it was a crime scene?

7 A. Yes. There was significant indications of blood and human tissue,

8 hair located on the walls, on the ceiling, on the floor of the warehouse

9 which is still present and still visible to a very large degree. Also

10 located was clear evidence of burning and scorching, explosive residue

11 patterns, and again samples were taken by the U.S. Naval investigation

12 service. Also located at that time were fragments of skull, bone, human

13 bone, ammunition, and other artefacts. In subsequent examinations, part

14 of which I was present for, grenade fly-off levers were located outside

15 the warehouse adjacent to the windows at the rear of the warehouse. There

16 was also an examination of a through and through hole through the rear

17 wall of the warehouse and the reinforcing concrete had been forced out in

18 that location.

19 Q. What was the significance of that?

20 A. One of the survivors of that execution had indicated the use of a

21 rocket-propelled grenade. Examination of that hole was consistent with

22 such a weapon being used, and parts of the rocket-propelled grenade were

23 located amongst the bodies in the Glogova grave.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, do you -- did you attend at the warehouse along

25 with the experts?

Page 7213

1 A. I didn't attend in 1996; however, on numerous occasions,

2 particularly whilst exhuming the Glogova, Ravnice, and Zeleni Jadar

3 graves, I attended the warehouse with police and scientific officers as

4 well as photographers.

5 Q. And what were the dimensions of this warehouse?

6 A. The warehouse is actually a collection, a long collection, of

7 several buildings separated by a small room in the middle, if you like.

8 The major examination was conducted on the eastern end of the warehouse.

9 I've indicated that it's about the size of this courtroom, perhaps a third

10 wider, with a 45-degree angle sloping roof, very large door on the eastern

11 end, windows along the sides, and another doorway to the western end.

12 Q. Turning then to Exhibit Number 10.3, can you very briefly identify

13 what that photograph depicts, please.

14 A. This is the Kravica warehouse. It's taken in winter. It is the

15 eastern end to the right of the photograph with a large damaged doorway.

16 And the other doorway which I mentioned is the one to the middle left of

17 the photograph next to the four open areas. I'd indicate that I spoke

18 before of the foam lettering above the door, which was located at the

19 Ravnice grave. That's that little doorway with the lettering above it.

20 The other part of the warehouse was not significantly examined by myself

21 or the other teams.

22 Q. Thank you. Turning then to Exhibit 10.4 -- or rather, 10.11.

23 Just very briefly, Mr. Manning, what does that photograph depict?

24 A. This photograph I recognise to be a still from a short video

25 section of a film known as the Petrovic video. It is taken as a car

Page 7214

1 travels from the east to the west along the road, and that's the large

2 doorway that you see in the warehouse. In this image, the doorway is not

3 yet damaged. I strongly believe that they are bodies of those executed in

4 the warehouse. And in the audio section of this tape, you can hear

5 gunfire. And on the right-hand section you can see a male person. In the

6 video you can see that he's armed. You can see pock marks on the wall

7 which are known to be impacts from weapons, rifle fire.

8 Q. Turning next to Exhibit 10.4. Can you indicate, Mr. Manning, what

9 this photograph depicts.

10 A. This is a section of the wall of the warehouse. I spoke about the

11 windows at the rear of the warehouse, below which we found a number of

12 levers from grenades. This is looking towards the back wall. It shows

13 the window. It shows some of the blood and what looks to be explosive

14 residue patterns on the wall. I would indicate that there is significant

15 burning within the warehouse. Our examination showed that at some stage

16 prior to the execution, burning had occurred, but also during the

17 execution some burning had occurred.

18 Q. Thank you. The next crime scene that you indicated earlier was

19 examined was the Pilica Dom. Can you just very briefly indicate what --

20 how was it examined, what was collected at the Pilica Dom.

21 A. Again, the Pilica Dom is an execution point. I've indicated that

22 it's the top of the map near the Branjevo Military Farm. It's a community

23 building. It was examined in 1996 by the U.S. Naval investigation

24 service, the same people who examined the Kravica warehouse. And again,

25 they took representative samples of blood, human tissue, and explosive

Page 7215

1 residue from that building. They also identified large amounts of blood

2 and explosive damage to the stage, blood dripping from the stage,

3 artefacts such as shell cases, identification documents, and shoes, and

4 other material which indicated or confirmed that an execution had taken

5 place in that building.

6 Q. Turning then to Exhibit 19.7. Can you indicate what that

7 photograph depicts.

8 A. This is a photograph of the stairway area leading to the stage of

9 the Pilica Dom. There is a blood splatter pattern. You can see it's

10 dripping down the wall, and there's another pattern on the left of the

11 photograph. And it also indicates damage to the walls and the structure

12 of the Dom.

13 Q. Dealing with the explosive residue or the damage to these two

14 structures, can you indicate whether or not there was an analysis produced

15 by any of the experts.

16 A. Your Honours, following the collection of those artefacts and

17 those samples, I conveyed them to the Netherlands Forensic Institute where

18 they were examined by experts at the constitute. They concluded that one

19 of the samples of explosive residue found at the Pilica Dom contained

20 traces of the high explosive TNT and two traces of explosive residue

21 located at the Kravica warehouse contained similar traces of high

22 explosive TNT.

23 Q. Thank you. And the report that you're referring to was for the

24 record Exhibit 655.

25 MS. ISSA: And I have no further questions. Thank you,

Page 7216

1 Your Honours.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much. I think you are ahead of

3 time.

4 MS. ISSA: Yes.

5 JUDGE LIU: Cross-examination, Mr. Karnavas?

6 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. I just have a few

7 questions.

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:

9 Q. Good morning or good afternoon, Mr. Manning.

10 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Karnavas.

11 Q. From looking at your CV, it appears that up until 2002 you were

12 working at -- in various capacities, primarily with the exhumations of the

13 bodies and collection of evidence and working with those experts.

14 Correct?

15 A. Your Honours, my main duties were, as described, however I was

16 also involved in statement taking and interviews and similar investigative

17 work. But all focused on the Srebrenica case for team 6.

18 Q. Okay. My question was: Up until 2002. Because from your CV, it

19 looks as if at that point you became the team leader for this

20 investigative process. Is that correct?

21 A. Your Honours, that's not correct. In 2000 -- September 2002, I

22 became team leader of a separate team, team 4, involved in the

23 investigation of offenses in Croatia and not connected to the Srebrenica

24 investigation.

25 Q. Okay. So you would have been the one, I take it, determining who

Page 7217

1 would be interviewed, when they would be interviewed, by whom they would

2 be interviewed, since you were the team leader of this investigative

3 process from the moment you started working with OTP?

4 A. Your Honours, just to clarify the point, whilst from 1998 to

5 September 2002 I was a team member of team 6 investigating Srebrenica,

6 under the command of two separate team leaders. I then left that team and

7 became a team leader of a completely separate team. So I did not direct

8 the activities of the Srebrenica team, except on occasion when I performed

9 acting team leader duties.

10 Q. Okay. And that was for a brief period of time, four months. Is

11 that what you state here, 2001?

12 A. I performed those duties for a four-month period continuous, and

13 over the years as a member of team 6, I performed those duties as needed

14 for various periods.

15 Q. So the answer is yes?

16 A. Yes, four months plus whatever other occasions.

17 Q. Okay. All right. Was that prior or after the arrest of

18 Colonel Blagojevic?

19 A. I was in team 6 on the arrest of Mr. Blagojevic.

20 Q. Okay. So while you were working on the Srebrenica team, as I see

21 from the interviews of the various witnesses, it appears that you're

22 present quite often and in fact quite often you're rather engaging in

23 asking questions. Is that correct?

24 A. During the time that I was on team 6, I interviewed a large number

25 of witnesses and I also interviewed a number of suspects. You're correct.

Page 7218

1 Q. Now, is there any reason why you never made any efforts, you or

2 your team, to contact Mr. Blagojevic who was in the RS, in Banja Luka, at

3 the time working openly with the international community. Is there any

4 reason why you never made any efforts to see whether he would be willing

5 to give a statement to you or other members of the OTP, if you know?

6 A. Your Honours, I'm trying to pause to assist the interpreters, but

7 I would have to check the records. But I would have assumed that an

8 attempt was made to speak to Mr. Blagojevic. I don't recall making that

9 attempt. That's a question I can't answer.

10 Q. Okay. But if you say that you could check your records, could you

11 please do that and if you find anything where attempts were made by you or

12 others to actually go to Banja Luka on your various trips to locate him

13 where he was working openly with the international communities, could you

14 please give us that information. Because we haven't found it so far and I

15 have been on this case for -- almost the time he was arrested. Okay?

16 A. Your Honours, perhaps that a request best dealt with by the team,

17 but I would be happy to assist. I know that we interviewed other

18 suspects, other accused who were eventually brought here. Because I'm no

19 longer associated with the team, perhaps it's best that request was made

20 of the team.

21 Q. Okay.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: That is a request that has never been made to me

25 and I'm in one of the best positions to answer that. I would certainly be

Page 7219

1 able to answer that to Mr. Karnavas should he ask, and I can actually

2 provide the Court with that information as well.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Let me be very clear on this point, Your Honour,

4 let me be exceedingly clear on this point. This has been a point of

5 contention throughout an eight-month period when I filed numerous motions

6 well over ten motions with respect to Mr. Blagojevic's provisional

7 release. And this issue has been asked repeatedly over and over and over

8 again. There have been a lot of innuendo that they had to uncover his

9 whereabouts. But pressed, and I invite the Trial Chamber to look at all

10 of my motions and all of my insistence for the Prosecution to produce a

11 scintilla of evidence where efforts were made to contact

12 Colonel Blagojevic, especially after I point out to him that when they

13 interview General Zivanovic who was the commander up until the 12th or

14 13th or 14th of July of the Drina Corps, and Zivanovic says Blagojevic is

15 a good man and you ought to talk to him and we have McCloskey say, Yes,

16 that's a good idea. In spite of all of that, there's actually no evidence

17 to show that he was ever contacted or any evidence that efforts were ever

18 made to contact him. And since this gentleman was a team leader or was

19 working in that capacity as an investigator, and I note that he does this

20 by profession, I was just curious whether he could provide us with that

21 information, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I believe that you could ask a

23 question to this witness, and we also believe that the witness has already

24 answered that question. The other matters are the matters between you and

25 the Prosecution. I hope after this session the two of you will meet

Page 7220

1 together to clarify this issue. If there is still some problems which are

2 related to this case, you may or both parties may freely come to the help

3 of the Bench.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

5 Q. Now, sir, I just have a couple of other questions. You went

6 through a series of photographs, aerial photographs, that were provided to

7 you, I take it, by the United States government, aerial photographs. And

8 using those photographs, you were able to determine disturbances on the

9 ground and those assisted you in finding the burial sites or some of the

10 burial sites. Correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Now, I take it that when you made that request it was for a

13 specific period of time, probably from the 10th or 11th of July, maybe

14 even earlier, until August or September, October, or the end of 1995.

15 Correct?

16 A. Your Honours, we made numerous requests for this material over

17 various time periods. I would agree with you that we requested specific

18 periods and then we would get what was available or what was released to

19 us. In the case of the Orahovac grave, we were looking for a -- the

20 earliest -- sorry, the latest time when it hadn't been disturbed and the

21 earliest time when it had been disturbed. So within those ranges, we

22 would make requests.

23 Q. Okay. Could you please tell us, if you know, the sort of -- the

24 first date that you were looking for, you know. Was it July 6th when we

25 believe the attack on Srebrenica occurred, or was it, say, after July 11th

Page 7221

1 when we know that most of the folks have gone to Potocari and some have

2 gone -- are on their way towards Tuzla. Can you give us an indication, if

3 you know, what was the first date of the request.

4 A. Your Honours, I didn't make those early requests particularly for

5 the primary graves that were located by the time I had joined the team.

6 And I am somewhat hesitant because I am aware that some of those

7 procedures are covered by Rule 70. But in the case of Orahovac where we

8 have a survivor who indicates when the grave was created, the requests

9 were made, and again I didn't make them, with the intention of saying:

10 Can you provide an image that shows the closest time to the creation date

11 of that grave. So was it created before Srebrenica happened? Was it

12 created the minute it happened? Those requests were made in line with the

13 testimony of the survivor. The images that were provided were provided by

14 the U.S. under their control.

15 Q. Now -- and I don't want to get into any Rule 70 material, but I

16 take it that for each burial site you were -- you tried -- I'm only -- I'm

17 making an assumption now. I don't know. You tried to get some assistance

18 from the U.S. government to provide you with some photographs at or around

19 that period when witnesses were telling you that incidents were occurring.

20 Is that a fair assumption?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. So for instance, we know that -- and I think this is with

23 some certainty, with respect to the Kravica warehouse, that that incident

24 happened on the 13th of July. We don't know the exact hour or minute when

25 all things began, but at least we have that particular date. Would you

Page 7222

1 agree with me on that?

2 A. I accept that the Kravica warehouse massacre occurred on the 13th

3 of July in the afternoon.

4 Q. Okay. All right. Now, did you make a request for the 13th of

5 July then to see whether the aerial imagery would be able to assist us in

6 pinpointing the time, for instance, you know when a mass of people were

7 there entering into the warehouse or gathering around the warehouse?

8 A. Again, Your Honours, I didn't make those requests, but there are

9 aerial images that show the warehouse on the 13th in the afternoon. One

10 that I know of, it shows a bus at the western end of the warehouse. That

11 I believe to be significant because it corroborates a witness testimony of

12 it.

13 Q. Okay. And would the aerial imagery tell you the time, that that

14 was the actual time, hour, minute, when that bus was located there, when

15 they captured that image, that is?

16 A. I would have to examine that image. I believe it says

17 approximately 1400, that is 2.00 p.m. That's the way the image was

18 provided to us by the U.S. government. And as to the timings of those

19 images, I believe that's a matter for the U.S. government and the Rule 70

20 issues.

21 Q. Okay. Well, certainly I would suspect that you as an

22 investigator, you must have asked how often, you know, you would get this

23 imagery. Can they do it every second or is it every 10 seconds, every

24 minute? How does it work in a general fashion. I'm not asking to go into

25 any national secrets.

Page 7223


2 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is clearly in line of Rule 70 and the

3 capabilities of this particular imagery, Your Honour. And if the exhibit

4 that Mr. Manning has referred to is an exhibit in this case and has the

5 time marked on it. And Mr. Karnavas can certainly ask questions about

6 that exhibit. But as for -- I mean, we don't even know these sorts of

7 questions. But it's clearly in the area of Rule 70 issue. What kind of

8 capability the U.S. aerial imagery had.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, if I may explain first, Your Honour. I'm

10 not asking for them to divulge U.S. secrets, though probably this is not

11 much of a U.S. secret. I'm merely asking whether the follow-up question

12 would have been: Are you capable to provide us with an image, say, an

13 hour later? Or a witness says that this incident happened around 6.00 in

14 the afternoon, can you check your records and see whether there's an image

15 on that particular hour to see if there's any changes so we have a before

16 and after? That's what I'm getting at, Your Honour. Maybe I'm not

17 phrasing my question correctly, maybe I'm not being articulate.

18 Q. But you get the gist of what I'm asking, don't you, Mr. Manning?

19 A. Your Honours, numerous requests were made for the best available

20 material they could have given us under your rules and obligations. If

21 they could have given me an image of men being executed and falling to the

22 ground, I would have appreciated that from an investigative point of view.

23 We gained the images that we were able to we gain from the U.S.

24 government. I didn't make those initial requests. I have made requests

25 of them and the U.S. government provided what they were able to or allowed

Page 7224

1 to provide; they are the images we have.

2 Q. Mr. Manning, gratuitous comments are not very helpful here as I am

3 beginning to find out after several months in trial. So I didn't ask you

4 whether -- that you could find images of people being shot and falling

5 down. All right? I'm asking whether you made a request or whether you

6 know a I know you a request was made. I know that you made many requests.

7 But concretely, can you tell me: Was a request made once they came up

8 with this photograph of -- where there is a bus, did you make a request

9 and say we have a window of opportunity here where witnesses are saying

10 that an incident happened three hours or four hours or five hours later,

11 could you check your records and see if there is an image so we can see

12 whether there is any difference, you know, in the pictures. That's all

13 I'm asking. Was a specific request made now that you've had some

14 indicators as to the timing of certain events from witnesses. And as you

15 know, sometimes witnesses are not totally accurate on the timing under

16 stressful circumstances.

17 A. I didn't make, in that instance, those requests. Numerous

18 requests were made. If we received a photograph like that, we would

19 request the next best photo or the next image or the next time. We got

20 what we got from the U.S. government. I didn't make those specific

21 requests.

22 Q. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for answer my question.

23 Now, Mr. Manning, I've looked at these photographs, and like you,

24 I've spent a lifetime basically in this forensic area and I haven't been

25 able to make sense of some of these photographs. Perhaps I don't have a

Page 7225

1 trained eye. Did you have that sort of trained eye to look at the

2 photographs, or did you need some assistance from the U.S. government or

3 their specialists who would be able to look at a photograph and be able to

4 say, okay this looks like --

5 MS. ISSA: Your Honour --

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes --

7 MR. KARNAVAS: I haven't finished my question, Your Honour.


9 Q. That this is an excavator or this is a bus.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

11 MS. ISSA: That is an overbroad question. I don't know if

12 Mr. Karnavas is referring to a particular photograph. Perhaps he can be

13 more specific. I don't see how --

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I gave an example, Your Honour.

15 MS. ISSA: I don't know how this witness can answer this question

16 when it's put that way.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, you may concentrate your answer on this

18 photograph, whether it's a bus or an excavator.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour --

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

21 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry to interrupt. I just happened to be the

22 Rule 70 person of the team, and I have no objection to that particular

23 question as you've phrased it. The question about any particular dealings

24 or communications he's had with any United States aerial imagery analysts

25 is a question that is not appropriate and is off-limits. And it's a very

Page 7226

1 serious issue in that how this material is dealt with in this court will

2 determine in the future how governments work with future tribunals. So

3 it's a very serious situation.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, Your Honour, I'm not asking him to

5 interpret photos from the Cuban missile crisis. I'm asking him whether

6 with his trained eye he could identify him or did he need assistance. I

7 don't need the methodology that was used, just whether he needed

8 assistance.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Witness, you may answer the question.

10 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, in the instance where a bus is sighted

11 outside the Kravica warehouse, I can clearly see that's a bus. I need no

12 assistance in saying that. A similar instance at the Sandici meadow where

13 there is four or five or more buses and clearly trucks and vehicles. I

14 can clearly see those. Some images are not the best quality. I can

15 clearly see the majority of the things indicated on those photographs.


17 Q. Thank you. Now, were you able to see them or identify them, as

18 you say, clearly, with the naked eye, or did you need to have those

19 photographs blown up in order to -- or maybe in between you used a

20 magnifying glass. I'm talking about what you did and I'm not talking

21 about the U.S. government. I know they have their own sophisticated

22 methods.

23 A. Your Honours, going back to the bus at the Kravica warehouse,

24 it's -- that I've seen an A4 photograph, it's clear to the naked eye. I

25 have examined a lot of those photographs with a magnifying glass, but to

Page 7227

1 me with the naked eye, that's clearly a bus and that's clearly the

2 warehouse. But there are other photographs which are not as good of

3 quality. If you saw some of them, particularly some of the Zeleni Jadar

4 secondary photographs, some are good and some are bad. In those

5 instances, in those examples, I could see what I know to be a bus.

6 Q. So the answer to my question was: You didn't need to blow up any

7 of these photographs?

8 A. No, I did not.

9 Q. Okay. Prior to this mission here in part of your work, because I

10 understand you have a long history of law enforcement, did you work with

11 aerial imagery before where you had to discern what was on these

12 photographs -- on photographs?

13 A. On a limited occasions. When I was in the drug operations'

14 branch, we would use helicopters or fixed-wing overflights of plantations.

15 We would use it on occasion for identifying premises, and normal aerial

16 photography.

17 Q. Are there forensic experts? Again, I'm not asking you about the

18 official U.S. government experts, but are there forensic experts that have

19 as a specialty the interpretation of photographs such as this, the ones

20 that we're dealing with, if you know?

21 A. Yes, there are photographic imagery experts.

22 Q. And may I ask if any were consulted since it would appear that

23 there seemed to be no shortage of forensic experts or fields of expertise

24 engaged in this case in order to be as precise as possible?

25 A. Your Honour, not to my knowledge, but I'm not going to deal with

Page 7228

1 the U.S. aerial imagery and how that was processed.

2 Q. I'm not asking you about the U.S. imagery. Okay. I'm just

3 asking: Did you want a second opinion, for instance, from an expert, I

4 mean such as with the ballistics, for instance, we can look with the naked

5 eye or put it under a comparison microscope and see two casings and to see

6 whether there is the ejection marks. I understand that. And maybe you can

7 reach the same conclusion. But nonetheless, you went to an expert so the

8 expert could then produce a report which we would have a little more

9 reliability. In this case, even though with your untrained eye, so to

10 speak, you were able to identify what you think was a bus. My question

11 is: Did you go to an expert, then, a forensic expert, specialising in

12 this to verify what you believe was the correct answer in this photograph?

13 A. No, I did not.

14 Q. Okay. Were there any aerial imageries that you are aware of or

15 examined with respect to the Cerska grave?

16 A. Yes, there were aerial images of the Cerska grave.

17 Q. And what were the dates of that?

18 A. I would have to check the images, but the creation date was the

19 13th of July, 1995. Because the Cerska grave was -- they were pushed down

20 a slope and soil was taken from the other side of the road, what you see

21 on the image is that mass of soil taken from the side of the road and

22 dumped on top of the bodies.

23 Q. So we would be able to look at this aerial imagery and sort of get

24 a ballpark figure as to -- at least some kind of indication when this

25 incident might have occurred at the very latest, maybe not when it

Page 7229

1 actually occurred, but we would have -- we would know that up until this

2 time something occurred?

3 A. Your Honours, again with the others, there's before and after

4 photographs, and, yes, they would show when it wasn't disturbed, and the

5 window, and when it was disturbed.

6 Q. And could you produce those for us at this point. Could you tell

7 us whether they are accessible -- well, first let me ask you this: In

8 preparation for today's testimony, did you -- because I noticed that you

9 pointed to aerial photographs, there were other photographs of a variety

10 of nature, including a warehouse that we have seen on a number of

11 occasions, did you by any chance inspect the aerial photographs for the

12 Cerska graves -- grave?

13 MS. ISSA: Your Honour --

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

15 MS. ISSA: If it would be of assistance, we do have the aerials

16 that were entered through Mr. Ruez's testimony and we could certainly

17 provide those if it would assist.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, let the witness answer the question first.

19 And then we'll see whether the Defence counsel needs that photo or not.


21 Q. Did you, sir?

22 A. Yes, I inspected that aerial image along with many of the other

23 aerial images.

24 Q. Okay. That was in preparation to come here today. I'm not

25 talking about whether you did that when you first arrived, but I'm saying

Page 7230

1 in preparation for today because I know Ms. Issa prepares exquisitively

2 [sic] hard for her presentations so I'm sure she had you there proofing,

3 going over all the documents, and as we saw it was almost a flawless

4 presentation thanks to Ms. Stewart. So the question is: In your

5 preparation to come here today, did you look at those?

6 A. Yes, or in recent preparation for the Milosevic appearance in

7 relation to the same matters.

8 Q. Okay. All right. And as I understand it, you are no longer

9 working on the Srebrenica case?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. When was -- when did you stop working on the Srebrenica case?

12 A. I took up my duties with team 4 on the 9th of September, 2002.

13 Q. All right, sir. Thank you very much.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

16 Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions?

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I do have a couple of questions,

18 Your Honour, and I think I will take about 30 to 45 minutes.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, we have all of tomorrow. You may proceed.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, we can start tomorrow if

21 that pleases the Court better.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Manning.

24 A. Good morning, sir.

25 Q. I wanted in the first segment of my questions to direct your

Page 7231

1 attention to the primary grave Kozluk. Did you personally participate in

2 the exhumation works at Kozluk?

3 A. Your Honours, I did not. I had visited Kozluk. I had seen some

4 body parts sticking out of Kozluk, and I wasn't present at all for the

5 rather lengthy exhumation of that grave.

6 Q. According to our information, that exhumation was done in two

7 parts, the first one was in June 1996 and the second time was in August

8 1999 and they were performed by Professor Rickt [as interpreted]. Is that

9 correct?

10 A. Your Honour, Kozluk was exhumed in 1999 by Professor Richard

11 Wright. It was not exhumed previously. It was apparent that there were

12 body parts on the surface of the grave. One or two of those body parts

13 were collected I think in 1998 and were examined at the mortuary and then

14 were retained for inclusion with the rest of the exhumation. But it was

15 only exhumed once in 1999 by Professor Richard Wright and his team.

16 Q. According to your report that was submitted here, I'm talking

17 about Exhibit -- that is your statement for this trial. It was done in

18 two parts, namely in June and August 1999. Am I right in saying that?

19 A. I would like to check the specific section, but it was conducted

20 over about a six-week period or a seven-week period, so it would have been

21 June and August of 1999. But I would have to specifically check that, if

22 you wish.

23 Q. That means in para 13 of your report, Kozluk, the grave was

24 exhumed in June and August 1999 by an ICTY team led by Professor Richard

25 Wright?

Page 7232

1 A. Yes. I perhaps see the confusion. It was over that period. They

2 started in June and they finished in August. It was a continuing process.

3 Q. Today you said that from the findings you received you drew the

4 conclusion that the executions were carried out on the site where the mass

5 grave was detected. Is that fair to say?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Can you tell us, on what basis did you draw that conclusion and

8 does it hold true of all bodies, of some of the bodies, in other words, on

9 a part of the grave or the entire grave?

10 A. Your Honours, it holds true for a large number of the bodies. I

11 would have to specifically check the report of not only Dr. Wright but the

12 chief pathologist, Dr. Clark. But it consisted of bodies which had

13 bullets underneath them consistent with them being fired through the

14 bodies. It was consistent with bodies who were in a posture which

15 indicated they had been shot as in falling forward with their arms bound

16 behind them. In one graphic example, an individual had been shot across

17 the back and he had, whilst still living, grasped a bush, the root of a

18 bush, in his hand. And when he was exhumed, when the soil was taken away,

19 his hand was still seen to be around the bush as it was when he died.

20 That sort of evidence was what Professor Wright was able to identify. And

21 again, finding the bullet holes and the bullets underneath the body

22 indicates that they were killed at that site and then covered with soil.

23 Q. In August 1999 when the exhumation was performed, was that grave

24 already robbed, were the bodies already reburied?

25 A. Yes. That occurred in 1995. And if you recall the photograph

Page 7233

1 that I showed the Chamber of the teeth marks and the bodies that were

2 bisected, that is the Kozluk grave.

3 Q. Can you remember how many bodies were found in the primary grave

4 in Kozluk in 1999?

5 A. Without checking the table, I think it was 380 or a similar

6 number. I've checked the table from Mr. Baraybar, and it was assessed at

7 340 individuals.

8 Q. And do you have information as to how many bodies were in the

9 primary grave in Kozluk, because -- before parts of the bodies were

10 removed, in other words, or was the total number of bodies initially

11 buried at Kozluk?

12 A. I believe that is addressed in Richard Wright's report, but over

13 150 were recovered in the associated secondary grave at Cancari road. And

14 it is a very large area, a very large grave, but that is addressed, I

15 believe, in Mr. Wright's report.

16 Q. We're asking these questions for one simple reason: We would like

17 to remove one dilemma. Namely, is it possible that bodies were brought to

18 the primary grave in Kozluk? In other words, could there have been bodies

19 of people who were not executed there, at least some of them, according to

20 your analysis?

21 A. I don't believe that's the case, and it's not supported by the

22 archaeological examination, in that they showed that there was a large

23 number of bodies spread over the surface of the soil, a large number

24 executed in situ, and then the soil had been dumped on top of them. If

25 those bodies had come from different sources from outside the Kozluk

Page 7234

1 execution point, you would expect to see that reflected in the

2 archaeological condition of the bodies. There would be a difference in

3 the bodies. There would be, you would expect, material, as you see in the

4 secondary graves, collected from where the bodies died. That material

5 wasn't visible. You could see that the bodies were laying on a surface

6 and that they all appeared to be simply sitting on the surface, laying on

7 the surface, and that there was a consistency to those bodies. If they

8 had been brought in in a mechanical digger or a truck, you would expect to

9 find evidence of that, a pile of bodies or other material; that wasn't

10 found.

11 Q. You are aware of testimony which says that those bodies were found

12 in a pit that used to be there earlier and that had been dug to get

13 gravel. Do you know that?

14 A. Your Honours, I would agree with that. The whole area is a

15 collection of pits and piles of gravel. And significantly, piles of

16 broken green glass. And a number of the bodies in the photographs and the

17 descriptions indicate that those bodies were on top of that green glass or

18 on top of that surface where, as you say, the gravel would have been

19 moved.

20 Q. Can we then agree that the grave was not actually dug in the place

21 where those bodies were found; rather, an existing pit for the

22 exploitation of gravel was used to bury the bodies?

23 A. I've seen the topography maps and I've seen the photographs of the

24 grave as it's been completely exhumed. I wouldn't agree that it was a

25 pit, but yes, it took part, it used the existing landscape, which as you

Page 7235

1 could see was a sloping face where material had been removed. I can't

2 agree that it was a classic pit, but it was an area or three areas which

3 had previously been dug for whatever. The bodies were laying on that

4 surface and down the slopes. And then the bodies had been covered up by

5 soil which had been taken from nearby.

6 Q. Yes, precisely. That's exactly what we wanted to get at.

7 Mr. Manning, let us clarify one small for the record. Did I understand

8 you correctly when you say that parts of the shards of glass which emanate

9 from the factory nearby were under the bodies, not above the bodies

10 exhumed in this location, in this primary grave?

11 A. Your Honours, there were large fields of glass. And it was put to

12 me that a lot of the bodies were on top of that glass and that they were

13 killed whilst resting or kneeling or laying on that glass, on that field

14 of broken glass. Yes, there was green glass below the bodies and also in

15 the surrounding area. There were thousands and thousands of pieces of

16 broken glass.

17 Q. And that glass was in that location even before the bodies were

18 brought. Correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And machinery was used to remove a layer of earth from the

21 vicinity, a layer which covered the bodies?

22 A. Yes. There was evidence during the exhumation of what they would

23 call the spoil pit or the place where the soil was taken and dumped on the

24 bodies. And it was also reflected in the aerial image or images.

25 Q. Now I should like to ask you some questions about a location

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1 called Rocevici, which was not covered either by your map or your

2 analysis.

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I agree, though, that this is a

4 good moment to stop, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. So tomorrow you could start with the new areas

6 of cross-examination.

7 And we'll resume tomorrow afternoon at 2.15 in Courtroom III. The

8 hearing is adjourned.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

10 at 1.44 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

11 the 6th day of February, 2004,

12 at 2.15 p.m.