Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7936

1 Wednesday, 21 April 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.36 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I'm sorry for the delay because

9 of the technical problems as well as the overtime for this morning's case.

10 Mr. Karnavas, are you ready for your next witness?

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, I am, Mr. President. And this witness will

12 not be asking for any protective measures.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

14 Could we have the witness now.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, Witness.

17 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

18 JUDGE LIU: Can you hear me?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

21 accordance with the paper the usher is showing you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 7937

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

2 Yes, Mr. Karnavas, your witness.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. Good

4 afternoon.

5 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:

6 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. If you could please tell us your full name.

9 A. Dragan Mirkovic.

10 Q. Could you tell us your last name letter by letter.

11 A. M-i-r-k-o-v-i-c.

12 Q. Thank you. Mr. Mirkovic, where are you from?

13 A. From Bratunac.

14 Q. And how long have you lived in Bratunac?

15 A. 47 years.

16 Q. I want to focus you right into the point in time in question in

17 this particular trial, July 1995. Could you please tell us what you were

18 doing in Bratunac at that point in time, what job did you hold.

19 A. At that time the managing director of the Rad utilities company

20 from Bratunac.

21 Q. Could you please tell us what is the Rad utilities company.

22 A. The utilities company in Bratunac deals with the production and

23 distribution of water with cleaning the town, maintaining the town parks,

24 sewage system. These are the main activities, although we have had other

25 activities as well.

Page 7938

1 Q. Sanitation being one of them, also known as asanacija?

2 A. Yes, during the war.

3 Q. Okay. Now, how long did you work for the Rad company?

4 A. 30 years, up to 1995.

5 Q. And how long did you hold --

6 A. So it's seven years less.

7 Q. Okay. And how long did you hold the position as managing

8 director?

9 A. Up to 1995, I'd had three terms, that is 12 years, as managing

10 director.

11 Q. Now, as I understand it, you gave a statement to the Office of the

12 Prosecution. Let me repeat the question.

13 Did you give a statement to the Prosecutor's office?

14 A. In Banja Luka.

15 Q. Right. In Banja Luka, in 2000.

16 A. Yes, in October.

17 Q. Okay. And I take it you had an opportunity to look at that

18 statement. Correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, before we talk about the events and we talk about some of the

21 issues or some of the matters you discussed in Banja Luka, could you

22 please tell us whether the dates that are in your statement are correct,

23 to your understanding.

24 A. No.

25 Q. Do you have a particular explanation as to why perhaps the dates

Page 7939

1 are not correct?

2 A. I think the main reason is that Mr. Ruez suggested these dates to

3 me and I simply agreed to them. Later on when I read my statement, I

4 realised that these dates were not right. I wouldn't like to mention any

5 dates. I wouldn't like to be held to that, because I don't remember the

6 dates anyway.

7 Q. Okay. But there were some times in your statement, as I

8 understand, where you seem to be under the impression that a certain event

9 occurred at a particular time.

10 A. These dates are dates that were suggested to me, and I simply

11 agreed to them. As I said, I don't really want to discuss dates.

12 Q. All right. Okay. Now, do you recall if you were given any tasks

13 on the day that Srebrenica fell, and that day is July 11, 1995? Do you

14 recall?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. Do you recall being given any assignments or being

17 given any orders with respect to asanacija?

18 A. Are you referring to the 11th?

19 Q. Well, in general, the 11th, the 12th, the 13th, those dates, since

20 you don't know the exact dates, do you recall at least incidents?

21 A. That's why I asked you whether you're referring to the 11th. I

22 don't remember the date, but I did get specific tasks to carry out.

23 Q. Okay. May I ask you: Who gave you those tasks?

24 A. These tasks or orders were given to me by Colonel Beara.

25 Q. All right. Did you know Colonel Beara?

Page 7940

1 A. That was the first time I had met him personally, but I had seen

2 him in Bratunac one or two times before that.

3 Q. Did you know of him, his reputation, the position he held, sort of

4 things that he was involved in?

5 A. I knew he was a high-ranking officer of the Army of Republika

6 Srpska.

7 Q. Do you know in which sector, which organ, of the VRS he was in?

8 A. No.

9 Q. All right. Now, where was it that you met Colonel Beara or how is

10 it that he gave you certain orders with respect to asanacija?

11 A. I was told to come to the SDS offices in Bratunac, and that's what

12 I did. On my arrival at the SDS offices, I saw two military policemen in

13 front of the door. I introduced myself to them and told them that I was

14 supposed to see Colonel Beara at his invitation. They let me go in, into

15 the premises of the SDS. And that was the office of the then-president of

16 the SDS, Miroslav Deronjic. I found Colonel Beara there and two other

17 officers whom I didn't know.

18 Q. Okay. Let me stop you here. And I want to go step by step so we

19 don't miss any details. Where were you when you were contacted to meet

20 Colonel Beara at the SDS office?

21 A. At that point of time, I was in my office in the utilities

22 company.

23 Q. Where is the utilities company in relation to the SDS office?

24 A. I think about 150 metres away, downstream along the Drina.

25 Q. All right. Do you recall about what time it was when you were

Page 7941

1 informed to meet Colonel Beara at the SDS office?

2 A. I don't remember exactly what time it was, but it was in the

3 evening.

4 Q. Do you recall the lighting conditions?

5 A. It was evening, yes.

6 Q. Do you mean in a sense that it was dark, getting dark?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Which of the two, dark dark or just about to go dark?

9 A. It was just beginning to get dark.

10 Q. All right. Do you know how it -- when you received the notice,

11 would you please tell us - if you recall - who it was that gave you that

12 notice, that placed the phone call? Was it Beara himself or someone else?

13 A. I was informed by telephone that I was to report to the SDS

14 offices and that Colonel Beara was waiting for me there.

15 Q. Now, when you got to the SDS office, you indicated that you went

16 in to Mr. Deronjic's office, where you found Colonel Beara and two

17 officers. Was Mr. Deronjic there?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Do you -- did you recognise the two other officers that were with

20 Colonel Beara?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did they introduce themselves to you to tell you whether they were

23 from the Main Staff, the corps?

24 A. No, they didn't.

25 Q. Do you know whether they were from the Bratunac Brigade?

Page 7942

1 A. No, they weren't. I know that.

2 Q. And I take it one of them was not Momir Nikolic?

3 A. No. Momir Nikolic wasn't there.

4 Q. All right. Now, if you could please describe to us what exactly

5 happened at that meeting at the SDS office with Colonel Beara and the two

6 officers that were with him with the two military police standing outside

7 the door.

8 A. When I arrived in the office, I told the colonel, Colonel Beara:

9 "Here I am. My name is Dragan Mirkovic. I am the managing director of

10 the utilities company. You asked to see me."

11 He said: "Take a seat."

12 I sat down. He offered me a drink. There was a bottle of whiskey

13 in front of him and a glass. I said I didn't drink. Then he asked me

14 what kind of machinery we had at the utilities company and how many men I

15 had. I told him that we had a small Skip backhoe excavator and that I

16 could ask for as many men as I needed from the military department. These

17 were unfit for military service, and it all depended on the need at the

18 time. That's why the numbers varied. I told him I could check exactly

19 how many men we had. And I also said that we had two trucks at the

20 utilities company.

21 Q. Okay. Let me stop you here. You said that you could get men from

22 the military department.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, was that the Workers' Battalion or are you referring to the

25 workers' unit? What exactly are you referring to?

Page 7943

1 A. This was a unit consisting of men unfit for military service, who

2 were mobilised to carry out a work obligation in the utilities company.

3 And they did the work that had previously been done by employees of the

4 company who had now been mobilised into the army.

5 Q. All right. Well, when you informed Colonel Beara about the

6 resources that were available and the men that you could get a hold of for

7 any work that needed to be done, what was his response?

8 A. He said to me: "You'll get these men and these machines ready.

9 You will be informed when to set out towards Milici. You have to go to

10 the bauxite mine there."

11 I asked him why, what for? And he told me: "There will be a lot

12 of dead who have to be buried."

13 I asked him: "Colonel, is this all right for us to do this in

14 Milici? And I don't have the proper machinery, I don't have enough men

15 for this kind of work."

16 They asked whether Mr. Rajko Dukic would have this done up there.

17 He then swore at me. He cursed Rajko Dukic. He said: "Go outside. Get

18 out. And you will receive orders what to do next."

19 And that's what I did.

20 Q. Let me stop you. When he said there would be a lot of dead, did

21 he say whether they would be Serb or Muslim or both, if you recall?

22 A. I don't remember. He didn't say whether they were Serbs or

23 Muslims. He just said there will be a lot of dead.

24 Q. All right. Now, first of all please explain to us how is it that

25 Colonel Beara, who is with the Main Staff, giving you an order to do

Page 7944

1 something when you are not in the military and you are instead with an

2 enterprise, utilities company, which is a municipal enterprise as I

3 understand it, of Bratunac. Would you please tell us how is it that he

4 could be giving you an order.

5 A. That's what I asked myself, why and how he could be issuing orders

6 to me, as the managing director of the utilities company. Had I then been

7 the komandir of the civilian protection, I would have understood his

8 issuing me orders for asanacija, or sanitisation of the terrain. But as I

9 was the managing director of the utilities company and I had nothing to do

10 with the civilian protection, I thought, well, this was simply because we

11 had the machinery, which we would give at the request of Ljupko Ilic for

12 asanacija, or sanitisation of the terrain. We would supply not only the

13 machinery but also a certain number of men when they were needed. I

14 didn't dare refuse the order.

15 Q. Why not?

16 A. Well, let me tell you, it was wartime. I was a civilian. A

17 colonel was issuing orders to me. Well, it's not that easy.

18 Q. All right. Now, you said that there was a bottle of whiskey and a

19 glass. Could you tell us whether you had noticed if Colonel Beara had

20 been consuming any whiskey himself.

21 A. Yes. Colonel Beara was drinking whiskey at the time.

22 Q. Okay. Was he sober and just having a friendly drink, or did he

23 appear to be more in -- slightly intoxicated, intoxicated? How would you

24 describe his appearance, if you can?

25 A. Well, I think the colonel was tipsy. I couldn't say he was really

Page 7945

1 drunk, but he was under the influence of alcohol. Because he wouldn't

2 have sworn at Mr. Rajko Dukic and me that way had he been sober.

3 Q. All right. So I take it you left as you were ordered. What did

4 you do after that?

5 A. Nothing. I returned to my office, and from my office I went home.

6 Q. Were you contacted again, as he indicated that he would be getting

7 a hold of you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Would you please tell us when it was that you were contacted and

10 where you were at the time you were contacted.

11 A. I was contacted after midnight. It was long after midnight,

12 perhaps 2.00, 2.30, or 3.00 a.m. I was at home. I received a phone call

13 and was told to report again to the SDS offices and that there I would be

14 told what I was to do the next day. I got ready and went there. I found

15 two guards, that is two policemen, at the door and Colonel Beara, who was

16 in the SDS office or Miroslav Deronjic's office alone.

17 Q. Did you notice whether Mr. Deronjic was in or about the area when

18 you went there?

19 A. On that day, I didn't see Mr. Deronjic at all.

20 Q. Okay. All right. So could you please tell us what happened when

21 you got there.

22 A. Colonel Beara told me -- well, he offered me some whiskey again

23 and I refused. It wasn't even dawn yet. And he said to me: "You will

24 now take a vehicle. You will find the location where the dead are to be

25 buried."

Page 7946

1 I refused this. I said: "Who am I to look for a location for a

2 burial site?"

3 He said: "Well, then, you will take this military policeman with

4 you who is at the door and he will show you where the site is."

5 I left the office and one of those two military policemen went

6 with me. We got in a vehicle. We went to Glogova. We turned off the

7 main road on to the so-called old Kravica road, and we went some 100 or

8 150 metres down the road, and he said: "This is the site."

9 Then we went back to Bratunac.

10 Q. Let me stop you now. The MP, the military police officer that

11 escorted you to that location, did you recognise him?

12 A. No.

13 Q. What about the other MP that was there?

14 A. No.

15 Q. There's some water there, too, if you need to drink.

16 Do you know whether they were from the Bratunac Brigade, these two

17 MPs that were guarding or securing Colonel Beara at the SDS office on that

18 particular early morning?

19 A. No, no, they weren't from the Bratunac Brigade.

20 Q. Now, what about the vehicle that took you and the military police

21 officer? Was that your vehicle? Their vehicle?

22 A. The military policeman did the driving.

23 Q. Was that vehicle belonging to - if you know - the

24 Bratunac Brigade?

25 A. No.

Page 7947

1 Q. All right. Now, when you returned, could you please tell us what

2 you did.

3 A. I went home.

4 Q. All right. The next morning, did you go back to the site in

5 Glogova where you had been ordered by Colonel Beara to dig?

6 A. That morning, just like all other mornings, I went to work as

7 usual, to my company. I made a schedule of assignments, and I said who

8 was to do what. We went to the site. The people who had a work

9 obligation with the utilities company at the time were transported there

10 in two trucks, which was owned by the utilities company. One of the two

11 trucks in the meantime broke down, so we sent it back. We didn't take the

12 backhoe excavator Skip with us then, because that machine was not suitable

13 for the work that colonel asked to be done. But instead, he sent an ULT

14 machine, a loader, in order to dig out the mass grave with that machine.

15 Q. Let me stop you here for a second. Now, this particular ULT, do

16 you know where it was from?

17 A. When the machine came to Glogova, I saw that it was an ULT owned

18 by the brick factory from Bratunac.

19 Q. Okay. Now, do you recall who was operating the ULT on that

20 particular day?

21 A. On that day, the machine was operated by Rade Djurkovic.

22 Q. Do you know how he got there?

23 A. Colonel Beara asked me in the SDS premises whether I had that

24 machine in my utilities company, the backhoe Skip excavator, and he asked

25 me who operated the machine. I told him it was Rade Djurkovic. He asked

Page 7948

1 me where the man was at the time. I told him he was mobilised, he was a

2 soldier. He told me, "All right, in that case, I'll take care of it."

3 The following day, Rade was already there at the site with the machine. I

4 simply marked what I had been told to mark, that is to say the site.

5 Q. Okay. Could you tell us how large of a site you had been asked to

6 mark.

7 A. It was a fairly large area. And precisely because it was large,

8 the ULT machine, which as we know is a loader and not an excavator, was

9 not suitable. So I informed Colonel Beara, I don't know how, but I

10 informed him that I couldn't do the work with the ULT, and that for a job

11 of that nature we needed a large excavator. He said that a large

12 excavator would arrive and that he would ask for it from the

13 Zvornik Brigade.

14 In late afternoon, the machine arrived from the direction of

15 Kravica. It arrived in Glogova on a tractor. The tractor went back to

16 Kravica, whereas the machine remained at the Glogova site.

17 Q. Okay. Now, was that -- when you say "on a tractor," the tractor

18 was pulling a platform and this excavating machine was on top of the

19 platform?

20 A. Well, it was towed. The machine was towed. It was a truck that

21 towed the platform, and the excavator sat on the platform.

22 Q. All right. Now, you said it arrived late afternoon. Again, do

23 you know what time it was or could you tell us the lighting conditions

24 at -- you know, when this machine came --

25 A. Towards the evening. There was still light, but it was in the

Page 7949

1 evening.

2 Q. Okay. Now, do you know whether that machine was put to work on

3 that particular -- when it arrived, on that particular evening?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Would you tell us whether that machine arrived with an operator.

6 A. No.

7 Q. So I take it there was or there were operators for that particular

8 piece of machine at the site?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. All right. Now, was there another individual that was operating

11 any of the machines that you recall, if you recall? If not, that's fine.

12 A. Rade Djurkovic, Simic --

13 Q. Would that be Krsto Simic?

14 A. Krsto Simic, yes.

15 Q. Okay. All right. Now, could you tell us, if you recall, how

16 long, how many days, this operation took, the digging itself.

17 A. Once the machine arrived from Zvornik, as Colonel Beara had said,

18 it was put to use and it was operated as long as there was light. ULT was

19 parked. It wasn't used at the time, because it wasn't suitable. The

20 other machine was the only one that was used. As soon as it became dark,

21 we left the area. I think -- I don't know how many people, two, three, or

22 five, in uniforms remained to guard the machine.

23 Q. Those in uniform, were they from the Bratunac Brigade, if you

24 know?

25 A. I didn't know any of them.

Page 7950

1 Q. Okay. You didn't recognise any of them?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you know whether they were from any particular unit, other

4 than the Bratunac Brigade?

5 A. No. No.

6 Q. Did you have an opportunity to speak with any of them, to ask them

7 any questions, where they might have come from, who had sent them, what

8 they were doing there, how long they were there, and so on and so forth?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you ever see Colonel Blagojevic come to that site while you

11 were there?

12 A. No.

13 Q. All right. Now, did you participate at all in the filling up of

14 those graves -- or were you involved, I should say? Did those graves --

15 were those graves that were dug up, were they ultimately filled with

16 bodies?

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not understand the answer.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: "Da," that means yes.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, ask your question again.


21 Q. Did -- did you participate, did you participate, in the filling up

22 of those graves?

23 A. I was in charge of the digging of the graves.

24 Q. All right. Did you watch the graves being filled?

25 A. Yes, for a certain amount of time.

Page 7951

1 Q. All right. Do you know who was filling them?

2 A. The trucks brought them.

3 Q. Okay. Where were the trucks from, if you know?

4 A. There had been requisitioned trucks in Milici, Zvornik, Vlasenica,

5 there was one truck from the utilities company. But mostly Zvornik,

6 Milici, Vlasenica.

7 Q. Do you know where the drivers were from?

8 A. No.

9 Q. All right. What about the driver -- who was driving the truck

10 from the utility company?

11 A. Milivoje Cvjetinovic.

12 Q. And he's from Bratunac, I take it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Now, do you know how many days it took to fill the graves

15 and to cover the bodies up, if you know?

16 A. From the time Colonel Beara issued an order to me, people from the

17 utilities company and myself stayed there for three days.

18 Q. Okay. Now, were you there the entire time or were you coming and

19 going?

20 A. I wasn't there the entire time.

21 Q. All right. Would you go back -- when you were not there, would

22 you go back to your office in Bratunac?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. And I take it you went home at night, to your home?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7952

1 Q. Okay. Now, do you know whether Colonel Beara ever showed up at

2 those sites while you were there?

3 A. No.

4 Q. That he did not or you're not sure? Which of the two?

5 A. While I was there, he did not show up.

6 Q. Okay. You did not see him?

7 A. I did not see him.

8 Q. Do you recall seeing Momir Nikolic?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Now, I want to talk to you about another -- about an incident that

11 occurred at the Kravica warehouse. Did you ever hear about that incident?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you ever go to the Kravica warehouse?

14 A. Not to the warehouse itself, but I was there on the road.

15 Q. All right. Well, could you please tell us -- well, do you

16 know -- you said that you weren't familiar with dates, but you recall

17 going to that area. So please tell us: When you went there, what if

18 anything did you notice?

19 A. I went from Glogova to Konjevic Polje, because a unit from the

20 utilities company was out there on the field. There were a couple of

21 people there who were collecting bodies with several people from the

22 utilities company and the company's truck. They were collecting bodies of

23 the people who had been killed. So I went to Konjevic Polje, too, to see

24 what was going on, more out of curiosity. I saw in Kravica a site that I

25 will never forget. I saw the killing.

Page 7953

1 Q. Please tell us exactly what you saw.

2 A. I saw one man taking five people who were entering the compound of

3 the co-op Oka, co-op in Kravica. The man was in uniform and had an

4 automatic rifle in his hands. And he ordered the five men to lie face

5 down, and then he shot them in the back.

6 Q. All right. Did you try to stop this from happening?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you make any reports to anyone with respect to these events?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you recognise any individuals that were committing these

11 killings?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Now, when you spoke to the Prosecution and you gave your statement

14 back on 13 October 2002, I've noticed that you omitted this detail in your

15 statement. Would you agree with me on that?

16 A. I would.

17 Q. Is there a particular reason why you didn't tell Mr. Ruez about

18 what you had witnessed?

19 A. There is.

20 Q. Would you please tell that to the Trial Chamber, please.

21 A. I was afraid to tell about this to anyone.

22 Q. All right. Now, I want to switch to another area, another place

23 where there might have been or there were, in fact, killings. And that's

24 the Vuk Karadzic school. Were you ever asked to go there for asanacija

25 purposes to collect any bodies?

Page 7954

1 A. We were collecting bodies there.

2 Q. And do you know who informed you that you had to go there?

3 A. I don't remember who informed me, but a group of people from the

4 utilities company was tasked with going there in a truck and collecting

5 the dead bodies. We had heard the shooting around the school.

6 Q. All right. Did you yourself go there to see how many bodies there

7 were?

8 A. No, I didn't. I was by the school only once, and I saw five or

9 six corpses. However, after that the driver Cvjetinovic, Milivoje,

10 informed me that there had been many more dead there.

11 Q. All right. Now, did you ever tell Momir Nikolic anything about

12 collecting those bodies and unloading them someplace?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Okay. Just to be on the safe side perhaps we could go through

15 what Mr. Nikolic said during his testimony when he was being questioned by

16 Mr. McCloskey. And I have for the ELMO the appropriate pages. For the

17 record, it's page 1771. And I'll be reading from line 7. I will go

18 slowly. You won't need to read. This is all in English. But I will go

19 slowly, step by step, and perhaps you can help us here.

20 Mr. Nikolic is being asked, and this is from line 9: "All right,

21 Mr. Nikolic, one other question on that topic. You told us you received

22 information about 80 to 100 bodies from the school area in Bratunac from,

23 I think, Dragan Mirkovic. Is that right?"

24 And his answer is: "Yes, that's what I said."

25 Did you give him any information about those bodies being at the

Page 7955

1 school?

2 A. No.

3 Q. The next question, the next question, line 13: "Did you receive

4 any information from him where those bodies were deposited?"

5 And here is what Momir Nikolic stated under oath, line 15, page

6 1771: "Yes, Your Honours. Dragan Mirkovic also informed me that the

7 killed Muslims killed in the night between the 13th and the 14th had been

8 collected during the night and in the early morning of the 14th, and

9 transferred into the surroundings of Glogova in an isolated place close to

10 Avdagina Njiva" - I butchered the name - "and that they were just covered

11 by earth and buried in that way, unloaded and covered by earth."

12 Sir, did you ever tell this to Momir Nikolic?

13 A. No.

14 Q. He goes on.

15 Question: "When you say 'unloaded,' did you receive information

16 of how they were unloaded or how they were deposited?"

17 Again, Momir Nikolic, line 23, page 1771, here is what he said

18 under oath: "Yes. Dragan Mirkovic told me that representatives of the

19 civilian authorities had asked for a truck from his company which was an

20 FAP 13, a truck that can lift -- the back of which can be lifted and in

21 that way the load deposited."

22 Did you ever say any of this to Momir Nikolic?

23 A. No.

24 Q. The next question by Mr. McCloskey: "Were you provided

25 information about the geographic descriptions of the area that they were

Page 7956

1 unloaded in?"

2 Momir Nikolic answer, line 4, 1772, again under oath says: "Yes,

3 he," that being you, "he told me that this was done in an area which is

4 about 1 kilometre away from this mass grave and that when you come to

5 Av--" this village that you can see -- "you take a turn to the right. And

6 after a certain distance, this was done where there was no settlement. In

7 the border area of," this place. I'm paraphrasing because I can't

8 pronounce the village. "He mentioned the village of Halilovici. I don't

9 know where that village is situated, but I do know the road and where it

10 leads to."

11 Did you ever tell this to Momir Nikolic?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Had you, and I want to underscore that, had you told that to

14 Nikolic and had you deposited, collected and deposited the bodies in a

15 manner which Momir Nikolic described to the Trial Chamber under oath,

16 would you be willing to tell us that here today?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, sir, did you ever go to Potocari during those days --

19 A. No.

20 Q. -- to conduct any asanacija?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were you ever asked to go to Srebrenica to conduct any asanacija?

23 A. No.

24 Q. All right. Now, as I understand it, when you were being

25 questioned by Mr. Ruez in Banja Luka, the gentleman drew some maps and had

Page 7957

1 you look at them. Do you recall that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And in fact last night for the first time you pulled out of your

4 briefcase copies of those maps which Mr. Ruez had drawn and had you mark

5 and which you signed. Correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And in fact we looked at some of those exhibits. You don't have

8 to go through your briefcase. But let me ask you -- let me just show

9 you. I guess we can go step by step.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: One moment, Your Honours.

11 Q. Let me show you what I was just handed by the Prosecutor prior to

12 the commencement. We'll put it on the ELMO. And we can see from the ELMO

13 that this has an ER number of 01068740.

14 Sir, do you recognise your signature on this page?

15 A. I do.

16 Q. And if you could point where it would be. You have to look

17 at -- we lost it. We seem to have a technical problem. But we can move

18 along.

19 In looking at that map, if you could just look at it. If you

20 could just look at it. That's your signature on the right-hand corner,

21 right-hand bottom corner. Correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And there are some -- did you draw that or did you just make some

24 markings on it?

25 A. Mr. Ruez drew it and he also put in markings on it.

Page 7958

1 Q. Okay. Now, there seem to be some dates there. Is that your

2 handwriting or is that the handwriting of Mr. Ruez?

3 A. This is not my handwriting.

4 Q. Okay. But I take it the dates that he placed there were based on

5 the dates that you might have given him. Correct?

6 A. Mr. Ruez drew these -- extracted these dates from me. He was the

7 one who mentioned the dates. I was not ready, not prepared, for this. So

8 I simply agreed to the dates he stated, and that's what he wrote down.

9 Q. All right. But the location that we have, as we have the road of

10 Konjevic Polje and where the locations of these -- of the X's and the

11 little squares are and the circles, that would be correct as to where the

12 graves are, correct, the ones that you assisted in digging?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. All right. Now, at some point in time did you go to the site with

15 Mr. Ruez?

16 A. To this site you mean?

17 Q. Well, did you -- let me -- let me -- let me go back.

18 At some point did you meet Mr. Ruez again?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. Did you meet him in Banja Luka or was it in the field?

21 A. The second time, it was in Bratunac -- or rather, in Glogova.

22 Q. Okay. So that would be at around this area that we have on the

23 map, more or less?

24 A. Approximately, yes.

25 Q. All right. Now, we don't have anything from the Prosecution with

Page 7959

1 respect to this particular meeting, what might have transpired, what might

2 you have said, what questions might have been asked, what information you

3 might have provided. So could you please tell us first of all how it is

4 that you met Mr. Ruez in Glogova.

5 A. The interpreter, what's his name? Can you help me?

6 Q. The interpreter from the OTP, the Office of the Prosecution?

7 A. Yes. The one who was in Banja Luka.

8 Q. Okay. All right. Well, in any event how was it that you met

9 Ruez? That's my question. Were you contacted? Were you asked to meet

10 him there? Did he show up one day?

11 A. Yes. The interpreter called me on the phone at home and told

12 me -- or rather, he told my daughter, because I wasn't in, that he would

13 call on the following day between 6.00 and 7.00, and that's what happened.

14 He called me and he said: "We are setting out to Bratunac. We'll meet in

15 Glogova in an hour or an hour and a half. Will you come there with your

16 car?"

17 And I said: "Yes, I will."

18 I went there. They were waiting for me. It was -- well, there

19 were a lot of SFOR soldiers around. There were people in white coats,

20 probably from some sort of medical department or sanitisation department.

21 And then we made the sketch. He then said to me: "Will you indicate here

22 on the site where the graves were dug."

23 And I showed this to him. Then he asked me: "Mr. Mirkovic, did

24 you dig this grave which is about 6 or 7 metres long?"

25 I said: "Probably. When all this was dug, this grave was dug

Page 7960

1 also."

2 You see, he said: "Mr. Nikolic forgot to steal these corpses and

3 transfer them elsewhere. And here we found the corpses of 12 people who

4 had been killed. They were tied two together with barbed wire and all

5 shot in the forehead. Do you know anything about this?"

6 And I said I didn't. "It's possible," he said, "that this was

7 done by Mr. Lazar Ostojic and his soldiers." And he pointed with his

8 hand. "That's where they were at the line, and these are probably people

9 who surrendered to the soldiers of Lazar Ostojic or they were caught in

10 the woods fleeing from Srebrenica. And these are the men who were

11 killed."

12 He said: "Are you sure you know nothing about this?"

13 And I said: "No, I don't know anything about it."

14 From there we went for me to show them a mass grave from 1992.

15 Q. Okay. Now, I -- did Mr. Ruez show you any documentation or any

16 proof as to why he thought Mr. Lazar Ostojic had committed those crimes,

17 on what basis he was providing this information?

18 A. He didn't show me any documents. That's what he said to me,

19 that's all.

20 Q. Do you know Mr. Lazar Ostojic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And he was with the Bratunac Brigade, was he not?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You were also asked by Ruez that he had -- or you were told that

25 he had documentation that the Bratunac Brigade military police were

Page 7961

1 guarding the equipment there for that period of time up until, I believe,

2 the 19th. Did you at any point in time notice anyone from the

3 Bratunac Brigade military police guarding any of the equipment there?

4 A. No.

5 Q. If you had seen members of the Bratunac Brigade military police or

6 any of their officers there guarding the equipment or assisting in this

7 enterprise, would you hide that from us?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Now, you know Mr. Blagojevic, do you know not?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In fact, you know him since you were a child. Correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You went to school together. Correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You're from the same generation?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And I take it when he became the commander of the

18 Bratunac Brigade, you had opportunities to at least see each other,

19 perhaps even have a coffee or a drink on a social occasion?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And would it be fair to say, Mr. Mirkovic, that Mr. Blagojevic is

22 a friend of yours?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would you lie for your friend? Would you lie to protect

25 Mr. Blagojevic?

Page 7962

1 A. When I started testifying, I took an oath that I would speak only

2 the truth.

3 Q. And before taking that oath, I had warned you during the proofing

4 session, had I not, that you could be facing charges of perjury if you

5 failed to tell us the truth?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now --

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honours, I believe it's time for the break. I

9 don't believe I have any further questions, but if we're going to take the

10 break I would like to sort of do a mental accounting.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, if you insist.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I thought it was the time, Your Honour, for

13 the break.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll have a break and we'll resume at quarter

15 past 4.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas, do you have more questions?

19 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions, Your Honour. Thank

20 you very much.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

22 Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions to ask to this witness?

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I will try to

24 be very brief, but I need to put a few questions.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

Page 7963

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Mirkovic.

2 A. Good day.

3 Q. I will ask you to help me clarify some of your responses during

4 the examination-in-chief. Could you please tell us since when you have

5 known Colonel Beara.

6 A. I've known Colonel Beara since -- well, actually two or three days

7 before I met him, I saw him for the first time in Bratunac.

8 Q. When you say "when I met him," you're referring to the event you

9 described?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When you were called to the SDS offices in the evening?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. What kind of meeting was it? Did somebody introduce Colonel Beara

14 to you?

15 A. I went to the office at the colonel's invitation, and I knew him

16 by sight. He is a tall man. So I was able to recognise him by that.

17 Q. We heard some testimony here yesterday from a protected witness

18 who also spoke about this meeting. Can you recall whether anybody else

19 attended the meeting. I am referring to members of the civilian

20 authorities or the civilian protection, but please don't mention any

21 names. If someone like that was present, just say yes or no if not.

22 A. When I was invited to the SDS offices, nobody else was present,

23 except for Colonel Beara and the two officers I mentioned and whom I did

24 not know.

25 Q. During this conversation you were told to go in the direction of

Page 7964

1 the mine and the Milici municipality. Is this correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. They said they expected quite a lot of dead without saying what

4 kind of dead and who they belonged to.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Am I correct in saying that at that time the mine in Milici was

7 the best-equipped company, as far as machinery goes, excavators and so on,

8 in the north-eastern part of Bosnia?

9 A. Yes, I think you're correct in saying that.

10 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, since we speak the same language, can we just pause

11 a little between question and answer so that the interpreters have time to

12 interpret what we are saying. Thank you.

13 Did you then think it was odd that he should be asking you, with

14 the modest resources you had at your disposal, to go in the direction of

15 the mine at Milici, which was so well equipped?

16 A. Well, that's why I asked the colonel: "Is it all right for us to

17 do that up there and take the machinery from Bratunac?" And the machinery

18 wasn't even suited for that kind of job.

19 Q. So I would be correct in saying that this was illogical, because

20 the equipment and the machinery belonging to the mine was superior to what

21 you had at your disposal?

22 A. Yes, but that's what he asked of me, to prepare the machinery I

23 had at my disposal, to get it ready, and to go to Milici.

24 Q. Thank you. You are the managing or you were the managing director

25 of the utilities company for 20 -- for 12 years --

Page 7965

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's apology.


3 Q. Is it correct to say that this is a public company?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And that you were funded from the budget of the municipality?

6 A. No.

7 Q. How was the utilities company funded?

8 A. Not from the budget, but from the sale of water and from the funds

9 we received for refuse disposal. And the only thing that was funded from

10 the budget was washing the streets and cleaning the parks. So this was a

11 smaller part of the work that we did.

12 Q. All public activities, such as maintaining public areas, public

13 parks, burials if requested by the municipality were funded from the

14 budget. And the rest was paid for by subscribers, came from your revenue.

15 Am I correct in saying that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. According to the law on defence in these wartime conditions, who

18 issued you with your orders?

19 A. You mean in time of war?

20 Q. Yes. In time of war.

21 A. We were supposed to receive orders from the president of the

22 Municipal Assembly and the president of the Executive Board. From various

23 inspectors, utility, sanitary, building inspectors, depending on the job

24 we had to do.

25 Q. In any case you were not subordinated to the army, but you were to

Page 7966

1 be coordinated -- your activities were to be coordinated with those of the

2 army through the civilian authorities?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. You also spoke about the arrival of a heavy-duty

5 machine in Glogova from the direction of Kravica -- or rather,

6 Konjevic Polje. And you mentioned the truck towing that machine. Do you

7 remember that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you remember what sort of vehicle this was, the vehicle towing

10 the excavator? Can you tell us anything about its colour, make, and so

11 on?

12 A. This towing truck, I think it was yellow. It was an FAP 18.

13 Q. And the platform on which the machine was, was it blue? Was it

14 MAS make? Can you remember?

15 A. I can't be sure.

16 Q. But you allow for this possibility. It could have been blue. It

17 could have been MAS?

18 A. Well, as for the make, I can't say anything about that. I didn't

19 observe what make it was. I didn't look.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I will now put to

21 this witness a statement made by a protected witness, so I ask to go into

22 private session.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session, please.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 7967












12 Page 7967 redacted, private session














Page 7968

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in open session, you may proceed.

14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 Q. Let's try to put these events in chronological sequence, if we

16 can. As far as I was able to understand, after you saw this machine

17 arriving you decided to go toward Konjevic Polje, and that's when you saw

18 that incident in Kravica. Is that how it was?

19 A. Well, not right away.

20 Q. But it was on that day?

21 A. Yes, it was on that day -- just a moment. The machine arrived, it

22 was digging, and I went to Konjevic Polje on the following day, not that

23 day. It was on the next day.

24 Q. That's very important to us. So the event in Kravica that you saw

25 and described here occurred the day after this machine started operating

Page 7969

1 in Glogova?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether there was another incident, now

4 that we mention the incident in Kravica, the execution, apart from the one

5 you saw on that day? I'm talking about the supermarket in Kravica, to be

6 more precise, or rather, the Kravica warehouse or the co-op in Kravica.

7 A. What happened in Kravica and the surrounding area the day before I

8 left for Konjevic Polje was that a truckload of corpses was brought to

9 Glogova.

10 Q. And to finish this area, do you know Dragan Jokic?

11 A. From television.

12 Q. You never saw him in Zvornik, in Bratunac in that period of time?

13 A. I don't think I did.

14 Q. When you say "from television," did you -- are you referring to

15 the reports from the Tribunal?

16 A. Yes, precisely so.

17 Q. So there were no positive or negative reports about him outside

18 the context of The Hague Tribunal?

19 A. It was from the trial at The Hague Tribunal.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21 Q. Thank you, Witness.

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

24 Any cross-examination? Yes, Mr. Shin.

25 MR. SHIN: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.

Page 7970

1 If I could just have the Court's indulgence for one minute while I

2 fix this podium.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Shin:

4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mirkovic.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. You -- I'd like to begin by looking at the issue of the dates in

7 your -- in the interview that you gave to Mr. Ruez, an issue you've

8 already talked a little bit about today. Now, you stated today that you

9 believe Mr. Ruez extracted the dates that were in your statement from you.

10 Is that correct?

11 A. I don't think I used the word "extracted," but that he led the

12 conversation. He would give me the dates and I would confirm them.

13 Q. Okay. So you would give him the dates and then he would confirm

14 or he would give you the dates and you would confirm?

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I would ask -- I didn't object

16 yesterday, but I would ask the gentleman to please listen to the answers

17 before asking the next questions, because his answer was very -- very

18 clear. And I don't want to confuse the witness anymore than he might be

19 confused with respect to the dates.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

21 Mr. Shin, I think you have to rephrase your question because I

22 also got confused.

23 MR. SHIN: I'll be happy to rephrase it.

24 Q. Perhaps I could rephrase it this way. You testified -- perhaps I

25 can approach the issue in this way. You testified today that you did not

Page 7971

1 know the date that Srebrenica fell. Is that correct?

2 Sorry. I'm not sure if -- did you understand the question?

3 A. Could you please repeat the question.

4 Q. You testified today that you did not know -- let me put it more

5 precisely. You did not know at the time of your interview with Mr. Ruez,

6 you did not know the date that Srebrenica fell. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes. When I talked with Mr. Ruez in Banja Luka, I didn't know at

8 that time. Just a bit ago, you stated that I had mentioned that here, and

9 I didn't.

10 Q. Now, when you were being interviewed by Mr. Ruez, do you recall

11 that you gave him some information -- you told him some things, on the

12 basis of which he was able to suggest a date to you?

13 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if the questioning is going to go in

14 that route, in fairness to the witness I think he needs to confront the

15 witness and show him exactly what he's referring to.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Shin, your question is too broad, you know.

17 What is something, some information, which is too broad. You have to be

18 more specific.

19 MR. SHIN: I'd be happy to be more specific.

20 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, do you recall that when you were being interviewed

21 by Mr. Ruez, you told him that Colonel Beara had called for you to meet

22 with him. Is that correct?

23 A. I didn't understand you.

24 Q. In your interview with Mr. Ruez, you told him about your meeting

25 with Colonel Beara. Is that correct?

Page 7972

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, you told Mr. Ruez that that meeting occurred on the day

3 before the fall of Srebrenica. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And in fact, it was on the basis of that information that

6 Mr. Ruez was able to suggest a date to you for that meeting. Is that not

7 correct?

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas --

10 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm going to object. I mean, now we're reading

11 into Ruez's mind. If he could point how it is that Mr. Ruez on that basis

12 was suggesting dates, I have no objection. But I think that he's asking

13 now to delve into Mr. Ruez state of mind as to what he did.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, first of all, I believe that this question has

15 no problem.

16 But on the other hand, Mr. Shin, you have to give us some

17 indications. For instance, the witness said that maybe two days of the

18 fall of Srebrenica or one day after, you know, the fall of Srebrenica,

19 then Mr. Ruez asked this question.

20 MR. SHIN: Yes. Mr. President, what I'm seeking to do is explain

21 that, or to show that the witness had told Mr. Ruez that the meeting with

22 Mr. Beara occurred on the day before the fall of Srebrenica.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

24 MR. SHIN: And on that basis, certain dates had been placed on the

25 events that occurred after that.

Page 7973

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may proceed with your question, but I don't

2 know how the witness will answer that question. You may try your luck.

3 MR. SHIN: Okay. Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, it was after you told Mr. Ruez that your meeting

5 with Colonel Beara was on the day before the fall of Srebrenica. It was

6 after that that he suggested to you a date on which that interview took

7 place -- I'm sorry, that meeting took place. Is that correct?

8 A. I said that to Mr. Ruez because for me, as a civilian at the time,

9 as someone who hadn't done the military service, the fall of Srebrenica

10 was on the day when the buses and trailer trucks were driving away women,

11 children, the elderly. So it is likely that this is what I said, that

12 that was a day before the fall of Srebrenica.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you. And it was only after you said that

14 that -- that was on the day before the fall of Srebrenica, it was after

15 that that Mr. Ruez suggested a date when that meeting had taken place,

16 that meeting with Colonel Beara?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you for clarifying that, Mr. Mirkovic.

19 You also said in your testimony, near the end of your testimony,

20 that Mr. Ruez had gone with you to the Glogova site. Correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you said -- I believe you -- you testified here that he said

23 that this was possible that this had been the work of Mr. Lazar Ostojic

24 and his men. That's correct, isn't it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7974

1 Q. Okay. Now, I'd like to move now, Mr. Mirkovic, to the issue of

2 your meeting with Colonel Beara, and that's the meeting where you raise

3 the matter of Mr. Djurkovic, who was the operator for one of the machines.

4 Now, you told Colonel Beara that Mr. Djurkovic was not available because

5 he was mobilised. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, that means that he was mobilised in the Bratunac Brigade. Is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you know where Mr. Djurkovic was at that time when you were

11 having this meeting with Colonel Beara, in terms of where his work

12 assignment was?

13 A. I didn't know.

14 Q. He was somewhere on the front lines, though, was he not?

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. He indicated already. It's been asked

16 and answered. He didn't know. Now it's suggesting a possibility where he

17 might be. It was asked and answered. He got his answer; he didn't like

18 the answer. Now he's trying to pin him in this front line.

19 JUDGE LIU: Is there some reason in this objection?

20 MR. SHIN: I'll move on, Mr. President.

21 Q. Now, sir, you testified about the warehouse in Kravica today. I'd

22 like to ask you a few questions about that. Can you tell us who first

23 told you that you had to go to Kravica?

24 A. I don't remember who told me that bodies need to be collected in

25 Konjevic Polje and along the road. I couldn't go myself -- I didn't have

Page 7975

1 to go myself. I could have just sent the driver with the truck and the

2 men to collect the bodies; however, I wanted to see myself what was going

3 on. And to see the corpses that needed to be collected. I wanted to see

4 how many there were.

5 Q. We'll get to the events at Kravica warehouse itself, but I'd like

6 to return now first to this issue of who had first told you about this.

7 Now, you had a chance to review the transcript of your interview with

8 Mr. Ruez. Correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, you read it prior to this testimony in the past few days. Is

11 that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did reviewing that help refresh your memory as to whether -- as to

14 who had told you about the bodies in Kravica?

15 A. I don't know. I don't know the man. He was a man in a uniform.

16 Q. Okay. This man in the uniform, did he speak to you in person?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Where did this conversation take place?

19 A. In Glogova, at the site.

20 Q. What kind of uniform was he wearing?

21 A. Camouflage uniform.

22 Q. Was he -- sorry. I'll let -- if you could finish. I'm sorry I

23 cut you off. I thought you were saying something else.

24 A. I just wanted to say the green camouflage uniform.

25 Q. Was that green camouflage uniform an army uniform, as far as you

Page 7976

1 know?

2 A. Well, for me as a civilian, all green uniforms were the same. To

3 me, they were all camouflage uniforms.

4 Q. Did you ask this person who he was?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Do you know if he was an officer of any type?

7 A. I think he was.

8 Q. And what made you think that?

9 A. Because he had an insignia on the pocket.

10 Q. And what was the insignia he had on his pocket?

11 A. Probably indicating his rank.

12 Q. Do you recall what this person told you precisely?

13 A. He told me to go with the truck and the people to collect the dead

14 on the road between Kravica and Konjevic Polje and said that there were

15 also some dead in Konjevic Polje.

16 Q. Did he tell you anything about the dead in Kravica itself?

17 A. No.

18 Q. What did he tell you about the dead in Konjevic Polje?

19 A. Nothing. He just said that there were some dead there, some

20 people who had been killed in Konjevic Polje, and that their bodies needed

21 to be collected.

22 Q. Now, you yourself went to Konjevic Polje. Is that correct?

23 A. Yes. In a passenger vehicle, whereas I told the driver and the

24 men to go to Konjevic Polje to collect that. One team had already been in

25 Konjevic Polje. I had some food in my car, and I took the food to these

Page 7977

1 people who had already been there. And then the truck and some additional

2 people came there subsequently.

3 Q. Now, was your -- that team, was that one of your teams? Was it a

4 team from the public utilities company?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And was that team sent there in response to this conversation with

7 this army -- with this officer?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So they had been sent there previously?

10 A. Yes, previously.

11 Q. And who was it that had instructed that that team go to

12 Konjevic Polje?

13 A. I'm not sure, but I think that it was agreed with Colonel Beara.

14 Q. Okay. If we could return now to the site of Kravica. Do you

15 recall what time it was that you got there, approximately?

16 A. I'm not sure what time it was exactly, but it was in the

17 afternoon.

18 Q. Did you see any bodies, apart from those five that you saw when

19 you got there, those five that you testified about?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. And where were those bodies?

22 A. They were in front of the building of Oka, in Kravica. And the

23 killing was before that.

24 Q. Just to be clear about that, the killing was before that in that

25 it occurred before that? I'm not sure I understood that answer, not in

Page 7978

1 English anyway.

2 Let me try to put the question to you again. Did you see bodies

3 at Kravica, apart from those five that you saw getting shot while you were

4 there?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And these bodies, where were they?

7 A. In front of the building of Oka in Kravica.

8 Q. How many bodies were there?

9 A. I couldn't say now. There was a pile of bodies. I couldn't tell

10 you how many.

11 Q. And when you were there, were there people who were removing those

12 bodies?

13 A. When I was there, nobody was moving the bodies. There were no

14 people in uniform within the compound. There was the man whom I saw shoot

15 these people, the five.

16 Q. So the man that you saw shooting those people was outside of the

17 compound?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you see anyone else in that area outside the compound?

20 A. Yes. There were people in uniforms, yes.

21 Q. How many people, approximately?

22 A. Well, I saw some 10 to 15 within the compound.

23 Q. Okay. You just stated a minute ago that there were no people in

24 uniform within the compound. Are you changing your answer or is this a

25 clarification of your answer?

Page 7979

1 A. I didn't mention that at all. Perhaps it was a misunderstanding.

2 I didn't mention that at all.

3 Q. Okay. In that case if we can just clarify this. Your testimony

4 is that "there were these 10 to 15 men within the compound."

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And these men were in uniform?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And these men were armed?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What were these men doing, apart from the one man that you've told

11 us about already?

12 A. Some were walking about. Some were just standing. Some were

13 close to this site where the other man killed those people.

14 Q. Was there any machinery there when you were at Kravica?

15 A. Not at the time.

16 Q. Was there a bus in front of the warehouse at Kravica when you were

17 there?

18 A. In front of the Kravica building.

19 Q. Yes, in front of the warehouse.

20 A. I didn't see it.

21 Q. Now, the night that you had your meetings with Colonel Beara, did

22 you see any buses in Bratunac town that night?

23 A. I did see them one night, but I don't know. There were two or

24 three buses in front of the municipal building. But I couldn't tell you

25 what night it was.

Page 7980

1 Q. Could you tell us whether that was before or after the night when

2 you had your meetings with Colonel Beara?

3 A. I'm not sure, but I think it was that night when I had the

4 meeting.

5 Q. Did you see who was inside those buses?

6 A. There were many women, children, men, especially the elderly.

7 Q. Do you recall if the buses were parked there? Was the engine

8 running?

9 A. I don't remember whether the engine was running, but the buses

10 were parked in front of the municipal building.

11 Q. Do you recall either that evening, or maybe a couple days before,

12 a couple days after, meeting Mr. Davidovic in his office in the municipal

13 building at about 7.00 in the evening, 7.00 in the evening?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Was that before or after that evening or was it that evening?

16 A. That evening when there were buses there, I remember that

17 Mr. Davidovic and I brought water to the people, women and children, who

18 asked for it. I had some jerrycans at my office and I brought them there,

19 poured water into them, and then we distributed that in the buses.

20 Q. Did you hear that evening or the following morning that there had

21 been many more buses and trucks full of people in Bratunac town that

22 night?

23 A. I didn't see that.

24 Q. Did you hear about it?

25 A. Not that evening. What I saw ...

Page 7981

1 Q. Did you hear about it the following day?

2 A. Well, whether it was the following day or two or three days later,

3 I heard that there had been more buses, but I didn't see them. I only saw

4 the ones in front of the municipal building.

5 Q. Now, you testified that one evening in Bratunac you heard some

6 shooting around the school. Was that before or after that evening or was

7 it that evening?

8 A. I heard, but I'm not sure whether it was that very evening. I

9 heard about the shooting.

10 Q. I'm sorry. You heard about the shooting or you heard the shooting

11 itself?

12 A. I heard the shooting.

13 Q. Now, you mentioned that there were some bodies at the Vuk Karadzic

14 school. Who was it that told you about that?

15 A. I don't think I said that it was at the school, that the bodies

16 were in the school building, but rather around it. I saw several corpses

17 in the schoolyard. I didn't enter the school building, so I couldn't have

18 seen any corpses in the school building.

19 Q. If you could just focus on my question, please. Who was it that

20 told you about the bodies at the school?

21 A. I'm referring to the corpses that I knew that were around the

22 school building, not in the school building. I don't think I've mentioned

23 that at all.

24 Q. Just to be clear, you said that there were five or six bodies. Do

25 you know where, around which building, they were at?

Page 7982

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Which building was it?

3 A. The Vuk Karadzic school building.

4 Q. Now, when you say "the Vuk Karadzic school building," we know that

5 there's several buildings there. Which building is it?

6 A. The school building where the classrooms are. That's what I

7 consider a school building. In addition, they also have a gym hall and

8 the hangar, as it was called at the time. That's separate. But that was

9 in the yard of the school building.

10 Q. So that's the main school building with the gym attached to it at

11 the back?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Were the bodies in the front or the back of the school?

14 A. Facing the municipal building.

15 Q. So that was on the street side of the school. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, do you recall telling Mr. Ruez who it was who told you to

18 remove bodies from the school?

19 A. I don't remember.

20 MR. SHIN: If I could please have the -- I'm sorry, the B/C/S

21 transcript of the interview placed before the witness.

22 And if I could ask Your Honours' indulgence just for a moment

23 while I find the specific B/C/S page reference.

24 Q. Okay, Mr. Mirkovic. If I could please direct you to page 39 of

25 the B/C/S transcript.

Page 7983

1 MR. SHIN: And on the English, Your Honours, that is page 35.

2 Q. If you could just please read that page to yourself, Mr. Mirkovic.

3 A. Page 39?

4 Q. Yes.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Shin, do you have an English version at your

6 hands?

7 MR. SHIN: Yes, I do.

8 JUDGE LIU: Is it possible to put it on the ELMO.

9 MR. SHIN: Yes, please. Could we have the English on the ELMO.

10 Page 35. And page 35. I'll begin from line 3. And you can just follow

11 along, Mr. Mirkovic.

12 Question: "There's a hangar that was in Bratunac town that was

13 used to detain prisoners during the night between the 11th and the

14 12th -- sorry, the 12th and 13th, where at least around 50 people were

15 killed during the night." I'm sorry. I'll slow down. "At least around

16 50 people were killed during the night. Was the public utility company

17 requested to dispose all these bodies?"

18 "A. Between the 12th and the 13th?

19 Q. Yes. The people from that hangar were evacuated

20 around midnight on the 13th, so during the night between the 13th and the

21 14th. So probably the disposal of the bodies would have happened probably

22 the 14th.

23 A. Yes, it was requested. I'm not quite sure about the

24 date. I'm not certain about the date, but it was requested.

25 Q. Do you know where these bodies were taken to?

Page 7984

1 A. Actually, they were just asking one truck from us and

2 the people to load the bodies on the truck, but where the bodies were

3 taken, I didn't know.

4 Q. Do you know who made this request?

5 A. Someone from the army asked, but who precisely I

6 wouldn't know."

7 Mr. Mirkovic, does that help remind you who it was who asked this?

8 A. This is how it was, but I don't know who it was who asked it.

9 Q. Do you remember where you were when the request was made of you?

10 A. In my office.

11 Q. Did someone come see you in person, this someone from the army, or

12 was it a telephone call? How did you hear the request?

13 A. The request came by telephone.

14 Q. And you didn't ask who was it who was making the call?

15 A. No. If I had asked, I would probably know now who it was who

16 called me.

17 Q. Does the transcript of your interview, that portion, does it help

18 remind you whether there were more than five or six bodies at the

19 Vuk Karadzic school?

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I think he mischaracterises his

21 earlier testimony. He -- the gentleman indicated that he saw four or five

22 or five or six bodies outside. He indicated what he learned thereafter

23 from others. So I think it's a slight mischaracterisation of what he

24 testified to on direct.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I think so. I think there is a little nuance

Page 7985

1 there.

2 MR. SHIN: Perhaps I could just put a simple question to

3 Mr. Mirkovic.

4 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, how many bodies were taken from the Vuk Karadzic

5 school?

6 A. I said just a little while ago that I saw five or six bodies.

7 According to what the driver said who took the bodies away, he said there

8 were more. Whether it was 50, 60, or 40, I can't be sure.

9 Q. Did you find out that there were more? You were told that there

10 may be more, but did you in fact find out that there were, in fact, more?

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, Your Honour, more than what? Five or six or

12 50, 60, or 40? The gentleman has -- and I don't mean to be disruptive,

13 but he needs to be fair to the witness. He's indicated what he learned.

14 He indicated that he did not go there personally inside the school to see

15 it. He's testified as to what he saw and what he learned. And I think

16 the question that is being posed is vague. So if he could be more precise

17 in his questioning, perhaps we could end the cross a little bit earlier.

18 JUDGE LIU: I agree with you.

19 Maybe you could rephrase your question.

20 MR. SHIN: I would be happy to clarify that.

21 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, did you find out at any point that there were

22 more -- did you find out for a fact that there were more than five or six

23 bodies at the Vuk Karadzic school?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, as far as you can recall, were there any other

Page 7986

1 bodies in Bratunac town that the public utilities company had to pick up

2 that night or the night after or the night before?

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, Your Honour, I don't mean to be disruptive.

4 He never indicated that he picked up any bodies at night. Now we're

5 injecting -- you know -- it's -- it may seem innocuous, but I think if it

6 was posed differently, I wouldn't object. If he picked up any bodies in

7 Bratunac any time of day, fine. But that night, suggesting he was picking

8 up bodies at night, hence suggesting some kind of a clandestine operation

9 going on.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I don't think there's any problem

11 in this question. The witness could answer that question according to

12 what he saw and what he heard. There's no problem with it.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: It was the night part that got me excited.

14 JUDGE LIU: I understand that. I understand.

15 You may proceed, Mr. Shin.

16 MR. SHIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

17 Q. Mr. Mirkovic, if you could answer the question, please.

18 A. Would you please repeat your question.

19 Q. I'll put it. I'll put the question very broadly. The day

20 that -- either the day or night that these bodies from the Vuk Karadzic

21 school were picked up, either that day or night or the day before or the

22 day after, did the public utilities pick up any other bodies?

23 A. I don't remember.

24 Q. Now, you've indicated that you know Mr. Blagojevic. Do you know

25 Mr. Nikolic, Momir Nikolic?

Page 7987

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How long have you known him?

3 A. 30 or 35 years.

4 Q. How would you characterise your relations with him? Is he a

5 friend of yours?

6 A. We are comrades. We socialised. Whether he was a friend or no,

7 that's a broad term. But we did socialise and we considered each other

8 friends.

9 Q. Now, at no point in your testimony today have you indicated that

10 you spoke or spoke to or saw Mr. Nikolic in the course of asanacija work

11 that you described today. Is that correct?

12 A. I couldn't say that. I saw him or talked to him, because I didn't

13 see him at all during those days.

14 Q. Similarly nor in your interview did you say anything about

15 speaking to or seeing Mr. Nikolic during the course of the

16 asanacija -- the asanacija in Glogova, Kravica, or Bratunac?

17 A. I repeat, I did not talk to Mr. Nikolic about these matters at all

18 because I did not see him at all in that period, in those days.

19 Q. Do you know Mr. Miroslav Deronjic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How long have you known him?

22 A. 30 or 35 years, or maybe longer.

23 Q. Would you also consider him a friend?

24 A. We were friends, comrades.

25 Q. Just one final question. You mentioned that there were bodies at

Page 7988

1 Konjevic Polje. How many bodies were there?

2 A. There were 10 or 15 bodies.

3 MR. SHIN: Thank you. No further questions, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

5 Any re-direct?

6 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, just a couple of points.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Karnavas:

8 Q. A couple of questions. You were asked a question about

9 Miroslav Deronjic, presumably because you didn't see him during those

10 days. Now, how long were you the director of the Rad company, utility

11 company, the managing director?

12 A. For a little less than 16 years.

13 Q. And as I understand it, you were fired from that position.

14 Correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And as I understand it, it was Miroslav Deronjic that fired you or

17 had you released from that position. Correct?

18 A. Mr. Deronjic was one of the participants together with the people

19 who then took power from the Radical Party.

20 Q. Just briefly tell us, because we may go into motive, just tell us

21 why was it that Deronjic was one of the participants in getting you fired

22 from your position that you held as managing director a little bit less

23 than 16 years.

24 A. In the Bratunac municipality, the SDS was in power up to those

25 elections. Then the Radicals won the elections and the companies were

Page 7989

1 distributed among them. So that Miroslav Deronjic sold the utilities

2 company and me, even though I had been in the SDS with him. They wanted

3 various concessions. These new people that took power such as

4 Mladen Simic, Milivoj Radanovic, also known as Mungos. I didn't want to

5 be a puppet, as the managing director and do whatever they wanted, so I

6 came into conflict with them and that is why I was fired later on.

7 Q. Okay. So obviously you have no motive to cover him -- cover up

8 Deronjic. If you had seen him, you would tell us whether he was at the

9 SDS office when you went there on those two occasions. Correct?

10 A. Of course I would say that.

11 Q. One last area. You were asked on cross about going to the Kravica

12 warehouse, the agricultural warehouse. And you were asked the time of

13 day. Now, I believe you said it was in the afternoon. I want you to

14 think back. Could you please tell us. Was it in the morning, noon, or

15 afternoon? What is -- what was the time to the best of your recollection,

16 if you know, if you can tell us.

17 A. Around noon. What time it was exactly, I wouldn't know, but it

18 was sometime around noon.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you very much, sir. I have no further questions.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

21 Well, at this stage, are there any documents to tender?

22 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.

23 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Shin?

24 MR. SHIN: No, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

Page 7990

1 Well, thank you, Witness, for coming to The Hague to give your

2 evidence. The usher will show you out of the room and we wish you a

3 pleasant journey back home. You may go now.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. May I ask a question,

5 please, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If possible, if you will allow me to

8 shake hands with Mr. Blagojevic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm afraid that is not allowed. I'm sorry for

10 that.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, we still have about an hour left. Mr. Karnavas,

13 are you going to call your next witness or we stop here?

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, had I known that you wanted me to have

15 witnesses back to back, I could have probably had the next witness

16 available. I didn't provide for that, I apologise. So the answer is we

17 could break and if you want I can in the future have somebody in the

18 backdrop just in case to fill in the time. I certainly don't object to

19 going all the way to the last minute, since I've been given a very short

20 period of time to put my case together.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, we did not expect this proceeding so smoothly.

22 So we finish a bit ahead of the schedule. And the frankly speaking, we

23 are satisfied with the pace of the proceedings, which is one witness, one

24 day. This is our original plan. And we sit over time for two days. I

25 think we should make up for those two days. And before the hearing is

Page 7991

1 adjourned, could you please brief us about the tomorrow's witness? For

2 instance, whether there's any protective measures for this witness, or are

3 you going to furnish us with some proofing notes?

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I am unaware of as of this moment that any

5 protective measures will be needed. As for the proofing notes, proofing

6 notes will be provided but not today, not right now. I will have them. I

7 will have them hopefully by first thing in the morning, since we're

8 breaking a little early today. We're just -- the witnesses are coming in

9 rather late, and we're working as fast as we can to meet with them as

10 early as possible to provide the proofing notes. But just to make sure

11 that Your Honours understand what we're also doing, as soon as we --

12 before we put the notes down on the paper we do make a courtesy call and

13 give the Prosecutor notice of anything unusual so they can have as much

14 time as possible to prepare. So we're doing our best.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm a little bit disappointed with your answer.

16 Because you could not tell us tomorrow seeing that this witness or the

17 voice distortion, because we'd need some technical preparations for that.

18 And as for the proofing notes, well, we hope we could get it as early as

19 possible.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. As I said as of now I don't

21 anticipate. But one can change their mind. And so being a lawyer I don't

22 want to be committed to a particular answer. So I'm giving myself a

23 little bit of room just in case the witness changes their mind.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

25 And this hearing is adjourned.

Page 7992

1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

2 at 5.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

3 the 22nd day of April, 2004,

4 at 2.15 p.m.