Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7993

1 Thursday, 22 April 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.31 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 Before we have the next witness, there is one matter I would like

10 to announce, that is tomorrow we'll sit in the morning session instead of

11 the afternoon, since the Brdjanin case is over. So this courtroom is free

12 in the morning. Another matter is that we reserved the courtroom tomorrow

13 afternoon for a Status Conference, which is not long. I believe it's

14 about 30 to 40 minutes. The subject matter of this meeting is to continue

15 the discussion of the 65 ter filings by Mr. Blagojevic's Defence. But if

16 we could finish tomorrow's witness earlier, if we still have time in the

17 morning session, we'll simply turn into that Status Conference in the

18 morning so that we could have much more time in the afternoon to enjoy the

19 sun, if there's any.

20 Well, Mr. Karnavas.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Mr. President.

22 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready for your next witness?

23 MR. KARNAVAS: I am, Mr. President. No protective measures have

24 been requested. And for tomorrow's witness, there will be none either.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

Page 7994

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, witness.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

4 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

5 accordance with the paper Madam Usher is showing to you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

8 WITNESS: JOVAN NIKOLIC

9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

11 Mr. Karnavas.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours. Good

13 afternoon.

14 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:

15 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

16 A. Good afternoon.

17 Q. If you could please tell us what your name is.

18 A. Jovan Nikolic.

19 Q. And could you tell us your last name letter by letter.

20 A. N-i-k-o-l-i-c.

21 Q. And do you have a nickname?

22 A. Jole.

23 Q. All right. Mr. Nikolic, where are you from?

24 A. From Kravica.

25 Q. And where is Kravica?

Page 7995

1 A. Bratunac municipality.

2 Q. Is that where you were -- is that where you grew up?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, do you know Mr. Blagojevic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you know him when you were growing up?

7 A. No.

8 Q. So you did not attend school together?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Where did you attend school, Mr. Nikolic?

11 A. I completed elementary school in the village of Kravica, then I

12 went to the secondary school for teachers in Tuzla. I completed that

13 school, and then I attended the pedagogical academy in Sabac.

14 Q. All right. Prior to the war, what was your occupation?

15 A. I was a teacher at the elementary school Petar Kocic in Kravica.

16 And I was also a teaching expert at that school. Then I served as

17 principal for two terms. And just before the war, I was president of the

18 municipal conference of the Socialist Alliance.

19 Q. Okay. Now, this school that you were the principal of and where

20 you taught, was that a multi-ethnic school?

21 A. Yes, it was a multi-ethnic school, a school which covered four

22 branches of schools, two of them were Muslim ones -- or rather Muslim

23 children attended those schools. And then from grade 5 to grade 8, these

24 children attended school in Kravica.

25 Q. Do you know the numerical or percentage breakdown between Serb

Page 7996

1 children and Muslim children?

2 A. In the early period, when I just started working as school

3 principal, the ratio was approximately 50:50 per cent. And just before

4 the war broke out, it changed to two-thirds of Muslim children to

5 one-third of Serb children.

6 Q. What do you today?

7 A. Today I'm principal of Branko Radicevic elementary school in

8 Bratunac.

9 Q. Okay. And do you have Muslim children or Bosniaks attending?

10 A. Yes. Muslim children also attend that school. Those are the

11 children of the returnees.

12 Q. All right. Now, I want to focus your attention to July 1995.

13 Okay. If you could please tell us what was your occupation during that

14 period of time?

15 A. In 1995 I was director of the co-op in Bratunac.

16 Q. Could you please tell us what this co-op was all about. What did

17 it do? Who belonged to it?

18 A. The co-op had three work units within it, so together they formed

19 what we called complex co-op. Those were the co-ops in Fakovici,

20 Bratunac, and Kravica. The main activity of those co-ops were production

21 of agricultural produce, sale of them, then we also had a bakery which

22 provided bread for the citizens of Bratunac municipality. Cooperation was

23 one of the main features of this co-op, which meant that the residents of

24 the area cooperated in order to produce this produce. So first they

25 produced them and then they sold what they did not need. The complex

Page 7997

1 co-op, where I worked as a director, was the one which coordinated all of

2 those activities.

3 Q. All right. Approximately how many people or families participated

4 in this co-op?

5 A. The co-op itself had 25 to 30 employees, whereas these branch

6 offices that I told you about, each of those co-ops covered about 2 to 250

7 households.

8 Q. All right. Now, during this period of time, were you also

9 mobilised in the army?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Could you please explain to us why not.

12 A. In December of 1992 during the Muslim attack on the village of

13 Kravica, where I was at the time, I was gravely injured, wounded.

14 Following my treatment, I became unfit for military service. I was

15 declared as such, therefore the army wasn't interested in me.

16 Q. Okay. So when, approximately if you could give us the month, when

17 did you stop being in the army?

18 A. As I've told you, I was wounded on the 24th of December. I was

19 treated in Zvornik until the 11th of January. And after that, I continued

20 receiving treatment at the military medical academy in Belgrade until the

21 10th of March. I spent the entire 1993 receiving treatment in

22 Banja Koviljaca, which is a spa. I was declared to be unfit for military

23 service on the 20th of May, 1994, by the decision of a military

24 commission.

25 Q. All right. Incidentally, in the co-op that you were managing,

Page 7998

1 were there individuals working for the co-op that were doing their working

2 obligation?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And just briefly, if you could remind us what that is.

5 A. The men who were unfit for military service were the ones who

6 worked in co-ops. In addition to that, there were some women who also

7 worked in order to contribute to the further functioning of the co-op.

8 Q. All right. Now, I want to direct your attention to the day when

9 Srebrenica fell, if you could use that as a point of reference, that date

10 being 11 July 1995. Do you recall, sir, what you were doing on that

11 particular day?

12 A. In July and second half of June, our co-ops started an organised

13 campaign to buy off the entire harvest of berries, raspberries. A lot of

14 raspberries are grown in our region, and many people are engaged in

15 harvesting raspberries. This is how it was that year as well. So on the

16 11th and before the 11th, I was at the co-op where we were harvesting

17 raspberries, which had to be picked and then transported to refrigerated

18 warehouses in Zvornik.

19 Q. All right. So -- if I understand you correctly, traditionally the

20 July month is raspberry month for the co-op. And you were busily engaged

21 with the raspberry season?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. Now, did you -- let me focus you on the next day, the

24 day after Srebrenica fell, that would be the 12th of July, 1995. Do you

25 recall what you did that day?

Page 7999

1 A. The 12th of July is a holiday in my village. This is the day when

2 the church in Kravica celebrates the day of its patron saint. Regardless

3 of the situation that existed at the time, we were in Kravica on that

4 day -- or rather, I was in Kravica attending the church service. And

5 following that, I went to the house, which is 500 metres from the

6 church -- or rather, the remains of the house which was burnt during war

7 operations in 1993. I stayed there until afternoon hours.

8 Q. Let me stop you here. When you say "the house," whose house was

9 that?

10 A. That was the house of my parents, my brother, and me. It was our

11 family house in the village.

12 Q. Okay. And just incidentally, at that period in time were you

13 living in that house or were you living elsewhere?

14 A. I was living in town. I had an apartment owned by myself, my

15 wife, and my children. We lived in Bratunac.

16 Q. Okay. So when you went to this house, to your house, your family

17 house in Kravica on 12 July 1995, was there anyone else there during

18 the --

19 A. [No interpretation]

20 Q. -- celebration?

21 A. I went there together with Marko Tomic. There were few people

22 attending the church service, in view of what was going on. We stayed

23 there some time, then we continued on to my house and came back in the

24 afternoon hours.

25 Q. Okay. Was your -- were your parents alive at that period of time?

Page 8000

1 A. My mother had died earlier. My father lives in Sabac, but he came

2 to Bratunac on that occasion.

3 Q. Okay. Was he there at the house during this Slava celebration, if

4 you recall?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. Now, did you remain there the entire day, or did you

7 leave at some point?

8 A. I stayed there until the afternoon hours.

9 Q. And then where did you go?

10 A. Then I returned to Bratunac. And together with a friend who drove

11 me, I went to the warehouse of the agricultural co-op, which is

12 approximately halfway between Bratunac and Ljubovija. I went there to see

13 what was going on and to see whether everything that we had planned was

14 unfolding well under supervision.

15 Q. All right. Did you notice anything unusual at that time, July

16 12th, 1995, that afternoon?

17 A. Upon our return from Kravica, we saw that the traffic was more

18 active. We saw buses travelling from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje -- or

19 rather, to Zvornik and I don't know where else they could have gone, to

20 Kladanj and on.

21 Q. All right. Did you notice by any chance who were in those buses?

22 A. There were people in the buses. I didn't know who they were. We

23 assumed that that was the evacuation or the departure of Muslims from

24 Srebrenica.

25 Q. All right. Now, you went -- from there -- after visiting -- when

Page 8001

1 you went to the agricultural warehouse, if I understand your testimony

2 correct, did you notice anything unusual there at that time?

3 A. No. But this is the warehouse in Bratunac.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. There was nothing unusual going on there at that warehouse.

6 Everything was as usual.

7 Q. All right. Okay. I misunderstood you. I thought this was the

8 Kravica agricultural warehouse.

9 Now, when you got into Bratunac --

10 A. No.

11 Q. Could you tell us -- when you went to Bratunac. When you

12 physically went there, did you do anything that afternoon?

13 A. As I've told you, I went to the warehouse, I stayed there for some

14 time. I think that on that day I was invited to attend a meeting which

15 took place in the SDS premises. I was asked to attend the meeting,

16 scheduled by Miroslav Deronjic.

17 Q. And did you attend the meeting?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Do you recall who else attended the meeting, just some of

20 the people?

21 A. Those were mostly people who were in town who were not engaged in

22 the military. Among others I remember that Aco Tesic was there,

23 Ljupko Ilic. I'm not sure about Ljubo Simic, whether he was there. And

24 then also a number of other people who happened to be there in the area,

25 in town, where they were available to attend the meeting.

Page 8002

1 Q. All right. Now, how long did this meeting last, if you recall?

2 A. The meeting was organised in two parts. During the first session,

3 Mr. Deronjic told us that pursuant to the decision of the president of the

4 state, he was appointed civilian commissioner, as that post was known as

5 the time. And that following the completion of these operations, there

6 would be an organised revitalisation of the territory of Bratunac and

7 Srebrenica, that there will be a lot of work for civilian officials and

8 for residents as well. The second session of the meeting took place in

9 the SDS offices, and I did not attend that part of the meeting.

10 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether there was a -- whether Mr. Deronjic

11 had been informed that he was wanted on the telephone?

12 A. Yes. He was called to the telephone, and a group of people

13 accompanied him. I didn't want to go.

14 Q. All right. So I take it you don't know what transpired during

15 that telephone conversation?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Okay. All right. After that meeting, where did you go?

18 A. Following the meeting, I went home.

19 Q. All right. On your way to the house did you notice whether there

20 were any buses or trucks or -- with men in them?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. And where -- do you recall where you would have noticed

23 those buses or trucks?

24 A. I drove in my car to the apartment. This was in the part of the

25 road which goes on to Konjevic Polje. So near the intersection towards

Page 8003

1 Konjevic Polje and Kravica. This is where the buses were. There were

2 some trucks as well with tarpaulin, and I couldn't see whether anybody was

3 there on the trucks. I couldn't see what was there.

4 Q. Okay. All right. In Bratunac town do you recall seeing, in the

5 grad, do you recall seeing any buses or trucks that particular night?

6 We're talking about July 12th, 1995.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now. You indicated that you went home. Did you go out again that

9 night?

10 A. No.

11 Q. The next day --

12 A. The next day I went to work, because as I've told you we had a lot

13 of work involving the harvesting of raspberries. So I went to my office

14 to work.

15 Q. Where is your office located?

16 A. The office of the co-op is at the intersection of the road leading

17 to Srebrenica and the road coming in from Ljubovija. To be more precise,

18 it is in the very centre of the town.

19 Q. All right. Did you walk to your office or did you drive to your

20 office?

21 A. I walked.

22 Q. All right. Now, as you were walking towards your office, did you

23 see anyone?

24 A. I didn't understand your question.

25 Q. All right. When you got to your office, your office building, did

Page 8004

1 you encounter anyone?

2 A. When I came to my office building, there were workers there with

3 whom I had worked. There were no other people there.

4 Q. All right. Well, did you notice anyone familiar or did anyone

5 familiar come up to you at some point in time?

6 A. In the office?

7 Q. Not in the office, outside.

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you notice Momir Nikolic on that particular morning?

10 A. Yes. I saw Momir Nikolic a little later.

11 Q. All right. About what time?

12 A. I can say it was around 10.00.

13 Q. Okay. What time did you go to your office?

14 A. In the morning, at 8.00.

15 Q. Okay. Where was it when you -- where were you when you saw

16 Momir Nikolic?

17 A. I had left my office, and I was observing the buses and trucks

18 moving from the direction of Srebrenica. And then Momir Nikolic came

19 along.

20 Q. Okay. And was he in a car? Was he on foot, if you recall?

21 A. Momir was in a car.

22 Q. Do you recall the make of the car and colour of the car by any

23 chance?

24 A. It was blue and it was a Fiat Zastava.

25 Q. Okay. Now, did you know Momir Nikolic?

Page 8005

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How long have you known him?

3 A. Oh, for a long time.

4 Q. Okay. And what were your relations with him at that point in

5 time?

6 A. Mostly official, not especially close, but there were no problems

7 between us.

8 Q. All right. Now, when you saw Momir Nikolic, did he say anything

9 to you?

10 A. Yes. He offered to take me to Potocari so that I could see what

11 was going on there, in view of the fact that the evacuation was underway.

12 Q. All right. Did you accept his offer?

13 A. Yes, I did. I got into the car, and then he suggested that I go

14 home and change into a uniform, which I did.

15 Q. Well, if you hadn't been mobilised, since you had been injured I

16 believe it was December 1992, how is it that you would have a uniform at

17 home?

18 A. I had a uniform I had kept. And secondly, my brother was in the

19 army, so there happened to be a uniform in my house.

20 Q. All right. And did you change into a uniform?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. And after that, what did you do?

23 A. After that we got into the car again and set out toward Potocari.

24 Q. Okay. On the way to Potocari, did you see anyone that you were

25 acquainted with?

Page 8006

1 A. Yes, we did. In front of the administration building where I had

2 met Momir, there were two friends of ours. Perica Vasovic and

3 Stojan Ilic, also known as Cole.

4 Q. All right. And what happened when you saw them?

5 A. They stopped us. Momir stopped the car, and he took the two of

6 them to Potocari as well.

7 Q. Okay. So now all four of you are in the car. Correct?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. How long of a drive is it from the point where all four of you are

10 in a car to Potocari?

11 A. Well, it's a 10-minute drive at the most.

12 Q. During that 10-minute drive, did Momir Nikolic tell you what his

13 functions were?

14 A. No.

15 Q. All right. Was there any conversation at all, if you recall?

16 A. Well, he said that what was happening in Srebrenica was finished

17 now, that the civilians, the women, men, children were surrendering, that

18 they were coming down to Potocari, and that they were now being evacuated

19 and transported toward Kladanj.

20 Q. All right. Now, when you got to Potocari, could you please

21 describe to us what you did.

22 A. As I've already said, I went to Potocari at the invitation of

23 Momir Nikolic, out of pure personal curiosity. Because things were

24 happening up there, it was nearby, and there was nothing to prevent me

25 from going to see what was happening. We arrived at the checkpoint, that

Page 8007

1 is an area where there are a number of old factories within a compound.

2 We stopped there, got out of the car, and we saw that at this site there

3 were many women, children, elderly people, as well as men who happened to

4 be there.

5 Q. All right. What did you do in particular?

6 A. I didn't do anything. I did nothing at all. I recognised some

7 people; they said hello. I replied. And I was horrified to see the

8 suffering of the people there, the women, the children, the people fleeing

9 who had come there.

10 Q. What about Momir Nikolic? Did you notice what he was doing?

11 A. He didn't do anything special. He was there, just like me. He

12 saw some people he knew and said hello to them. So we stayed there for a

13 while.

14 Q. Did you ever see Momir Nikolic go up to any commanders, unit

15 commanders, to give instructions or to coordinate?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did Momir Nikolic ever tell you that he had been appointed by the

18 Main Staff to be the coordinator of all those units that were located in

19 Potocari?

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

21 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. That's been quite a number

22 of leading questions up until now in crucial things with Momir Nikolic.

23 And here just a moment ago he asked him whether Momir Nikolic told him

24 what his function was and the witness said no. And now he went on and

25 asked the same, in fact, leading question again.

Page 8008

1 JUDGE LIU: Well --

2 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may respond, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm perfectly -- first of all, I'm entitled to see

5 whether Momir Nikolic informed him that he had been a coordinator or the

6 coordinator by the Main Staff. You know. It does call for yes or no, but

7 also I believe it's vital information in light of Momir Nikolic's

8 testimony.

9 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you could simplify your question.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

11 Q. Did Momir Nikolic ever inform you of any functions that had been

12 given to him by the Main Staff in respect to --

13 A. No.

14 Q. -- with respect to the evacuation process?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. Now, you know Momir Nikolic quite well, do you know

17 not?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What kind of person is Momir Nikolic? Please describe him, his

20 character, so we can understand with whom we are dealing with.

21 A. Well, it's a thankless task, evaluating a person like that. But

22 as far as I know him he's an ambitious man, overambitious, I could even

23 say arrogant, and above all, a very bold man. He grew up in the same

24 community that I did, but he didn't have any close friends. And this was

25 because of the way he behaved toward people he worked with. People like

Page 8009

1 him are not easily accepted in the community. And Momir Nikolic chose

2 that lifestyle.

3 Q. Let me ask you this: Had Momir Nikolic been appointed to an

4 important position, based on your understanding of his character, do you

5 believe, or do you know whether he would have at least informed you of the

6 important position that he had been given --

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

8 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I think that's purely speculative. And he's

9 certainly not a psychologist here testifying what a person of a certain

10 character would answer to.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's quite a speculative question.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, I'll rephrase, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: I hope you drop it. I think you have driven the nail

14 into the place already.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: If I may be permitted one question.

16 Q. Is Momir Nikolic a boastful person, someone who would boast about

17 himself, his importance?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. How long did you stay in Potocari?

20 A. We stayed in Potocari for some 20 or 30 minutes.

21 Q. And during that 20 or 30 minutes, you said that -- you said hello

22 to some people. Were they soldiers? Were they Muslims? Were they both?

23 Would you please tell us.

24 A. As I've already said, I was seen there by some Muslims I knew. We

25 said hello, and that's the end of it.

Page 8010

1 Q. All right. Now, after you -- when you left, how did you -- where

2 did you go?

3 A. On our way -- or rather, when we returned, we arrived at the

4 administration building where I had met Momir. We said goodbye. And he

5 went off, saying he was going to the brigade headquarters. And I went to

6 work.

7 Q. All right. Did you do anything else that day, do you recall?

8 A. After being in the office, I went again to the cooperative

9 warehouse in Bratunac and I stayed there for three or four hours. After

10 that, I returned home again. This was my working day.

11 Q. All right. Now, when you returned home, did you happen to notice

12 if there were any buses with Muslim males in them?

13 A. I went home by car, and along the way I saw buses full of Muslims

14 leaving Srebrenica and moving in the direction of Zvornik.

15 Q. All right. Now, did you go out that night, once you got home?

16 A. No.

17 Q. The next morning - this is now the 14th of July - do you recall

18 that particular day?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you please tell us how it began and when.

21 A. In the morning I got up. I went to the headquarters of the

22 cooperative, and we looked at the reports from the sales points to see how

23 the raspberries were selling. We did that every morning for the previous

24 day. We established the quantities that had been sold, and we had some

25 coffee. We drew up a plan for that day. And after that, I went to

Page 8011

1 Kravica.

2 Q. All right. And about what time would it have been when you went

3 to Kravica?

4 A. I went to Kravica at around 9.30 or maybe 10.00.

5 Q. All right. And was there a particular reason for going to

6 Kravica?

7 A. Yes, there was a reason. We had not received the way bills, the

8 receipts, from the sales point in Kravica, nor had we received a report

9 from the people in charge of selling the raspberries. Together with

10 Dragan Nikolic, who was to take over the management of the plant in

11 Kravica, I went to Kravica.

12 Q. All right. Now, when you got there did you notice anything?

13 A. Yes. When I arrived at the cooperative compound which had an

14 administration building and other buildings, such as, for example, a barn

15 for cattle, warehouses, a mixed goods shop, and a place where we prepared

16 cattle feed, I went to the administration building. We stopped the car,

17 and then we started off toward the warehouse, where we noticed a certain

18 number of people. And we noticed that in that part of the warehouse, ugly

19 things were happening.

20 Q. Okay. Now, I want to stop you here, and I want to go step by step

21 as to exactly what you saw. Would you please tell us, when you say "ugly

22 things," what are you talking about?

23 A. First of all, I had not expected to come across such a scene in

24 this warehouse, which consists of two parts. There were a lot of corpses

25 there. At the other end, near the other end of the warehouse, I noticed

Page 8012

1 that shooting was still going on and that people were being liquidated.

2 They were being brought to the warehouse and then shot.

3 Q. Did you watch anyone get shot?

4 A. Yes. I saw that, and I reacted. I couldn't stand it. And I

5 started yelling and cursing, asking why they were doing this. And then I

6 myself was in danger from that group of men who were doing the execution.

7 Q. Okay. Let me stop you here. Tell us exactly what you saw. How

8 were these executions occurring?

9 A. Well, a long time has elapsed since then, so it's hard to say, of

10 course, but the people were lined up, told to lie down. After that, they

11 said they had to be vaccinated and that the vaccination had to be checked.

12 And then --

13 Q. Let me stop you. Let me stop you. I want you to describe to us

14 what they mean by vaccination and what you mean by the vaccination having

15 to be checked. We're going to go step by step.

16 A. There were lines of five or six men who were told to lie down.

17 And then the man in charge said that to be vaccinated, and this was done

18 by shooting them.

19 Q. Where --

20 A. And then the order was issued to check or verify this.

21 Q. Okay. When the initial shooting took place, the vaccination as

22 they called it, where were they shooting -- where were they shooting these

23 individuals?

24 A. In the back of the head.

25 Q. And when the next person had to recheck the vaccination, where

Page 8013

1 were --

2 A. Under the left shoulder blade.

3 Q. Okay. All right. Now, you said when you saw that you reacted.

4 First of all, could you please describe to us whether you recognised these

5 individuals.

6 A. No.

7 Q. Can you describe --

8 A. I didn't know them, nor could I guess afterwards who these people

9 had been. It's a fact that what I saw is true.

10 Q. Okay. Let me stop you. Did you recognise any of the men from

11 being -- from the Bratunac area?

12 A. As I've already said, I didn't recognise any of the men carrying

13 out the execution. And I am convinced that there were no men among them

14 from the brigade, that is the Bratunac Brigade.

15 Q. Okay. We're going to get to that. But first, were you able to

16 see the faces of these individuals?

17 A. They had uniforms and they wore masks over their faces.

18 Q. So I take it you could not see their face?

19 A. That's correct, yes.

20 Q. Were you able to recognise their voices?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, you indicated that you thought that they were not from the

23 Bratunac Brigade. Could you please explain to us how is it that you think

24 they could not have been from the Bratunac Brigade if their faces were

25 covered up.

Page 8014

1 A. I can assert, because before I was wounded I used to belong to the

2 Bratunac Brigade. I was deputy commander of the Kravica Battalion. And I

3 had other duties. For example, I was the president of the municipal

4 veterans' association, and the members of the brigade knew me well. So

5 that there wouldn't have been the incident that happened, had these men

6 been the members of the brigade we are talking about.

7 Q. Now, when you say "the incident," what incident are you speaking

8 about?

9 A. I am speaking about what happened when I approached and saw the

10 dead men in the warehouse. When I saw people being shot I reacted. I saw

11 and I started yelling, saying: "Why are you killing these people? Why

12 are you doing this?" Then they started coming towards me with their guns

13 pointed at me, intending to kill me, too.

14 Q. And what happened?

15 A. I beg your pardon?

16 Q. What happened?

17 A. After this, a group of men intervened who had been observing this,

18 because there were houses across the road from the cooperative. So they

19 intervened and tried to convince those men that I was the managing

20 director of the cooperative, that I had been previously the deputy

21 commander of a battalion, and they barely managed to save my life.

22 Q. All right. Did you recognise any of the men that helped you in

23 saving your life?

24 A. Yes. It was people from Kravica, elderly people. For example,

25 Sveto Milanovic, Velizar Vasic, Zoran Eric, and Perica Vasovic was there

Page 8015

1 too.

2 Q. All right. After that incident, what did you do?

3 A. After this, after this incident, I quickly went to Bratunac.

4 Q. And where did you go once you got to Bratunac?

5 A. When I arrived in Bratunac, I went to the Municipal Assembly

6 building, that is to the Executive Board offices. And I informed the

7 civilian authorities that in Kravica, in the warehouse, there was chaos

8 and that there were many dead men. And I told them about all this.

9 Q. All right. And what were you expecting them to do?

10 A. The reason I went there was for them to take appropriate measures,

11 that is to carry out asanacija or sanitisation of the terrain and to take

12 those measures they were authorised to take.

13 Q. Did you expect them to stop the killings or to try to stop the

14 killings?

15 A. No. I can say that the killing was nearly over.

16 Q. All right. Was man number one of Bratunac there?

17 A. I went to Srbislav Davidovic's office, Ljubo Simic was there too,

18 and Deronjic came in later.

19 Q. Okay. Did you contact the Bratunac Brigade to see if they could

20 intervene?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Why not?

23 A. I didn't contact the Bratunac Brigade, nor do I think that I had

24 either reason to do so or an opportunity.

25 Q. All right. Did you ever find out where those individuals were,

Page 8016

1 where they were from, the ones that were committing those executions?

2 A. No.

3 Q. All right. Now, after this incident, what did you do?

4 A. After that, I stayed talking to the representatives of civilian

5 authorities and then received a promise from them that they would take

6 appropriate measures and that they would get civilian protection involved

7 and the company which at the time performed the duties of sanitisation or

8 the terrain.

9 Q. All right. Did you ever return to the Kravica warehouse?

10 A. Yes. I went back there. As I've told you, we had cattle there

11 and we had the production going on. There were some of our people there,

12 and also I was personally interested in ensuring that things started

13 functioning there again. And I thought that my being there would help it.

14 Q. Were the executions still going on when you got back there?

15 A. When I came back, the people who had been there were gone and

16 there were no more executions.

17 Q. All right. How long did the clean-up take place of the Kravica

18 warehouse, if you know?

19 A. The clean-up of the warehouse lasted from Friday afternoon through

20 Saturday and Sunday. I think it was completed around 1600 hours on the

21 16th, on Sunday.

22 Q. How can you be so precise? 1600 hours, 16th of July, 1995?

23 A. I can because there was an unpleasant event that took place on the

24 16th of July. When I returned from Kravica, I was told that my brother

25 had been killed, who had been at the front line in Zvornik area. This is

Page 8017

1 why I know the exact time and date, because upon receiving that news I had

2 to take care of the funeral for my brother and consoling his family and so

3 on.

4 Q. All right. Now, do you know what happened to the bodies that were

5 at the Kravica warehouse?

6 A. The bodies that were at the Kravica warehouse were buried in

7 Glogova.

8 Q. Did you actually see the burial process?

9 A. No. I did not leave Kravica. However, the grave was located near

10 the road and one could see it when travelling on the road.

11 Q. Okay. Now, you said that the 16th of July is a memorable day

12 because of the loss of your brother. Do you recall whether on that day

13 the burying process or the digging process in Glogova was ongoing, if you

14 know?

15 A. That was on Saturday and Sunday. The 16th was Sunday.

16 Q. Okay. Do you -- so was it still going on on Sunday, the 16th?

17 A. Yes, yes. And I've told you, we left Kravica, and this was

18 completed at around 1600 hours.

19 Q. Okay. What about the next day, the 17th. Did you notice

20 whether - in Glogova now, not in Kravica - whether the equipment was there

21 and the burying process was continuing, if you know?

22 A. I wasn't there on the 17th. I was in Zvornik on the 17th. As

23 I've told you, I went to receive my brother's body so that we could bury

24 him.

25 Q. All right. Now, you gave a statement to the Prosecutors back in

Page 8018

1 2001, I believe it was November 28, 2001. Is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you were given an opportunity to look at your statement.

4 Right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And initially you noted that part of your statement or part of the

7 information that you had given the Office of the Prosecution in Banja Luka

8 was not in your statement?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. A certain portion was missing. Right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then I believe it was yesterday that I gave you the

13 opportunity to listen to the tape that was provided to us, and then you

14 were able to hear the rest of that portion that for some reason there was

15 a mix-up, hadn't been translated and transcribed. Correct?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. After listening to that tape, I can only assume that you were

18 confident that that tape contained everything that you had said to the

19 Prosecutors in Banja Luka on 28 November 2001. Right?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Now, when you listened to that tape which contained your entire

22 statement to them, you did not state anything in that -- during that

23 questioning process anything about Momir Nikolic and the trip to Potocari

24 on the 13th of July, 1995. Is that right?

25 A. That's right.

Page 8019

1 Q. Would you please tell us why is it, if you know, why is it that

2 you did not tell the Prosecutors back on the 28th November, 2001, why you

3 didn't tell them anything about your encounter with Momir Nikolic, his

4 suggestion that you go and put on a uniform, picking up a couple of other

5 people, driving off to Potocari, and watching or observing Nikolic walking

6 around more or less in the same fashion as you did? Would you please tell

7 us why you didn't tell that to the Prosecutors back in Banja Luka on 2001.

8 A. Well, when I was asked by the Prosecution to speak about the

9 events in Srebrenica in the summer of 1995, I went to that interview with

10 great pleasure, because I wanted to state what I knew, and thus enable the

11 Prosecution to uncover the truth regarding those events. As to the

12 circumstances that you just asked me about, Bratunac is a small town and

13 all of us know each other well there. There were some people who

14 contacted me when I went to testify, and they asked me not to mention them

15 there, due to the unpleasant consequences that they could expect as a

16 result of that. Some of the people who asked me that and even insisted on

17 me not mentioning their names, Momir Nikolic was among them. The

18 investigators from the OTP who questioned me did not insist on that at

19 all. They asked me whether I was there and with whom. I mentioned Stojan

20 Ilic. They didn't ask me about Momir, so I didn't say anything about

21 that. And I would like to apologise to the Prosecution for that.

22 Q. All right. Now, incidentally, did Vidoje Blagojevic ever contact

23 you, like Momir Nikolic, insisting that you not mention his name in any

24 way?

25 A. No.

Page 8020

1 Q. Now, as I understand it, you also gave a statement to the RS

2 police.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And I believe in that statement there -- you don't mention

5 Momir Nikolic again?

6 A. They didn't ask me about Momir either.

7 Q. All right. Now, at some point - recently I would suspect - you

8 were contacted, were you not, by the lawyers of Momir Nikolic?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And as I understand it, they were probably interested in getting

11 some information from you. Correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you give them a statement?

14 A. I did.

15 Q. Now, this trip to Potocari that you told us about under oath, do

16 you recall whether you told them the same story?

17 A. I told them the same story, too. And I've repeated it just now

18 here, and that is the truth.

19 Q. Did you just tell them or did they record it, write it down, make

20 a statement, have you sign it, have it available in the event they wanted

21 to use it in court?

22 A. They took information and the statement from me. There was also

23 some mention of me testifying here before this court. Following the

24 events surrounding Momir Nikolic, they didn't contact me again.

25 Q. And I take it one of the things they wanted to have you highlight

Page 8021

1 was this trip to Potocari where you all walking around like sightseers in

2 Potocari on July 13 1995?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. And then you were never contacted again?

5 A. Following that, I had no more contact with them.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. President, I believe I am through, but again,

7 since we're just about up for our break, if I could have the indulgence of

8 sort of running through -- do an accounting to make sure I haven't missed

9 a point. I believe I'm through. I just want to be absolutely certain.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll take a break, and we'll resume at 15

11 minutes past 4.00.

12 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas, please continue.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you. I believe I just have a couple more

16 questions.

17 Q. Mr. Nikolic, in the part of the statement that was missing that

18 you gave to the Prosecutor's office back in 2001, what portion of your

19 statement was missing? What events?

20 A. The part that was missing was the part of the statement which

21 pertains to my arrival in Kravica and my stay there, as well as the

22 incident that I described to you.

23 Q. Your reaction to seeing the killings and trying to intervene?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. Okay. Now, I noted to you before coming here today that we had

Page 8022

1 been provided with some information from Muslim witnesses stating that you

2 were in Potocari not on the 13th, as you noted, but on the 12th. Do you

3 recall me bringing that to your attention?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Are you certain that you were not there on the 12th?

6 A. I am certain that I went to Potocari on the 13th and that on the

7 12th, I was in Kravica at the church. Therefore, on the 13th I was in

8 Potocari; on the 14th and 15th I was in Kravica; and then on the 16th, on

9 Sunday, after that all that was finished, I heard about the tragedy in my

10 family. So all of these dates fully correspond with my chronology of time

11 and I am fully certain of these dates.

12 Q. Just so I understand you correctly, you're using July 12th, which

13 is St. Peter's Day as your focal point as to where you were that day and

14 the following day. Correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. I take it if you had been to Potocari on the 12th of

17 July, 1995, would you readily admit to that?

18 A. Why not.

19 Q. Did you do anything to anyone in Potocari during the time that you

20 were there that you would worry about here today as you testify?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you harm anyone?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you threaten anyone?

25 A. No.

Page 8023

1 Q. Thank you very much, sir. I have no further questions.

2 Mr. Stojanovic may have some questions, who is representing Mr. Jokic.

3 The Prosecutor, I'm sure, will have some questions, as perhaps the Judges.

4 I would appreciate it if you would be as frank and as complete with your

5 answers as you have been with me. Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.

7 Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions?

8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, good afternoon.

9 Good afternoon to the witness as well. We have no questions for this

10 witness, in view of his testimony today and the contents of the indictment

11 against our client.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

13 Any cross-examination? Yes, Mr. Waespi.

14 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President, there will be a few issues.

15 Cross-examined by Mr. Waespi:

16 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Nikolic.

17 A. Good afternoon.

18 Q. Let me go over a few areas which you have discussed with

19 Mr. Karnavas. Now, I take it that you repeated several times you weren't

20 in Potocari on the 12th of July?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So you wouldn't have seen Momir Nikolic acting or not acting or

23 whatever he was doing in Potocari on that day?

24 A. I went with Momir on the 13th to Potocari, as I've stated today.

25 I went there because I was asked by him and out of my personal curiosity.

Page 8024

1 That's why I went with Momir to Potocari.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Waespi, I don't think the witness

3 understands your question.

4 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I apologise. I'll just ask it again.

5 Q. Because you were not in Potocari on the 12th, you don't know what

6 Momir Nikolic was doing in Potocari on the 12th. Is that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Now, let's go to the 13th when you were in Potocari, as you

9 testified today. What time in the day did you meet up with Momir Nikolic?

10 A. It was 10.00 in the morning.

11 Q. And I believe you were in the office a couple of hours prior to

12 that. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you hadn't met Momir Nikolic before you met him just prior to

15 going to Potocari?

16 A. No.

17 Q. So you don't know what he was doing on that morning before the two

18 of you met?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Okay. Let's go into Potocari. I believe you talked to

21 the -- told the investigators when you met with them in Banja Luka a

22 little bit, you know, how far you went in Potocari. And today I believe

23 you told us you went past these old factories. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you also mentioned the checkpoint which you passed?

Page 8025

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, how far into the compound or into the road towards Srebrenica

3 did you actually go?

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Excuse me, Your Honour. The gentleman never said

5 that he went into Srebrenica. And the checkpoint as I understand it is

6 before you get to Potocari. It's the yellow bridge.

7 MR. WAESPI: Maybe --

8 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you could ask some more questions to lay some

9 foundations on that.

10 MR. WAESPI: Yes, I will certainly do that.

11 Q. The checkpoint you mentioned, I don't think you clarified where

12 that checkpoint was located. Can you do that for us.

13 A. The checkpoint was at the yellow bridge, which is halfway on the

14 road between Bratunac and Potocari.

15 Q. Okay. And then you went towards Potocari, these old factories.

16 Now, tell us how far did you go into that scene which you described today.

17 A. We stopped at the entrance to the factory. These factories that

18 I've mentioned today were full of people. We didn't go in deep. We

19 didn't go and mix with the people. We stayed on the side, on the edge,

20 just before this tremendous amount of people who were there.

21 Q. How far away from this tremendous amount of people did you

22 stay -- did you stop?

23 A. At the very entrance, in front of them.

24 Q. Close enough so some people could recognise you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8026

1 Q. Did you also see buses and trucks alongside that road?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Did you see any men over there? I believe you testified that you

4 saw women, children, elderly. And then I quote you: "As well as men who

5 happened to be there."

6 Do you remember -- what did you mean by that?

7 A. I said that there were people of various age there, women,

8 children, adults, the elderly, men of these -- of this age. So people of

9 various age. Women, children, men, the elderly, and so on.

10 Q. Did you see elderly -- did you see men of able age, military-able

11 age there being grouped together?

12 A. They were there, too. They were not separated from the rest of

13 the people.

14 Q. So they were together in that crowd, which you have described

15 earlier?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Let me show you a brief clip of that area, and let me ask you

18 whether you recognise the scene.

19 MR. WAESPI: And I believe, Your Honour, it's Prosecution Exhibit

20 21.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes. I take it that the clip is from the 13th at

23 around 10.00 or 11.00 in Potocari, because that's when the gentleman was

24 there, as opposed to the 12th. So I just want to make sure that we're not

25 getting into some misleading territory.

Page 8027

1 JUDGE LIU: Well --

2 MR. KARNAVAS: The gentleman --

3 JUDGE LIU: I think so long as the clip is from the 13th, we'll be

4 all right.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, we want it to be relatively to the time and

6 place when he was there. If it was 13th at night, of course we don't want

7 that. 13th in the morning -- so if I can have some representations here

8 on the record that that is so, then I will sit down.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

10 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, everybody in this courtroom knows this

11 clip. It's the clip showing the white house with the people detained.

12 And we know that it's from the 13th. And if the witness says he hasn't

13 seen that scenery, then that's fair enough, then we can move on. But I

14 think it's absolutely proper to show this witness who claims to have been

15 there, to show him that clip.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: As long as he -- I'm told by the Prosecutor that

17 it's the 13th, that's fine.

18 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Waespi, you may proceed.

19 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President.

20 If the lights could be dimmed now.

21 [Videotape played]

22 MR. WAESPI:

23 Q. Do you remember having seen this house to -- with the people

24 crammed together on the balcony? Do you remember that when you were

25 there?

Page 8028

1 A. No. No, I didn't see this.

2 Q. You also saw a few people there in uniforms. Have you recognised

3 anybody you knew?

4 A. No, I didn't recognise anyone.

5 Q. Now, I believe in your statement to the investigators, you told

6 them that you saw the president of the municipality in Bratunac,

7 Mr. Simic. Do you remember that?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Simic was there on that day only or

10 whether he was on the second -- on another day as well? Do you have any

11 information about that?

12 A. No, I don't. I only saw him briefly. I passed by him and went

13 back. I have no information as to how long he stayed there. I have heard

14 about some statements to the effect that President Simic was duty-bound to

15 bring a tank truck filled with water there and bring medical assistance,

16 and that that was what his activities there were about.

17 Q. And you are absolutely certain that you saw him on that day, on

18 the 12th of July -- I'm sorry, on the 13th of July?

19 A. Yes, certainly.

20 Q. Now, during that time you spent together with Momir Nikolic

21 sightseeing - but I believe that's a word from Mr. Karnavas - together,

22 for how long were you there?

23 A. I've already said, we were there for about 20 minutes observing

24 what was going on there. Bearing in mind what we saw, I insisted on going

25 back and Momir agreed.

Page 8029

1 Q. And you said that you approached this group of people and you

2 talked to some of these civilians. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes. I recognised a forester from Bjecava. He said hello to me,

4 I greeted him. I saw some other people. And it all boiled down to brief

5 conversations about how they were or what they thought would happen. But I

6 was unable to give them any information about this.

7 Q. Was Momir Nikolic with you when you talked to this forester?

8 A. Yes, yes. He was with me and he said hello, too.

9 Q. For this period of time, was Momir Nikolic with you all the time

10 or did he have other whereabouts?

11 A. No, he didn't go off anywhere. We were together the whole time.

12 Q. How far together were you? 2 metres?

13 A. No, we were right next to each other, right next to each other.

14 Q. For 20 minutes?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So every person you met, he had met as well?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And every person he talked to, you would be aware of as well?

19 A. Not every person.

20 Q. Do you know a person called Dusko Jevic?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, I believe you -- I asked you already about these men which we

23 have seen on the clip. And I'm not sure whether you answered the

24 question, but did you see separations between the women, children, elderly

25 on the one side, and the men on the other side?

Page 8030

1 A. While I was there, I didn't see anyone being separated off. I

2 didn't see men being separated off from the women and children. I just

3 saw a crowd of people, and they were all mixed with respect to age and

4 generation.

5 Q. Okay. Let me move on to the next day at Kravica. Now, I believe

6 you were in Kravica on the 14th?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And also on the 12th?

9 A. On the 12th, I was in my family home. On the 14th, I went to the

10 agricultural co-op. On the 12th, I didn't go there because it was a

11 holiday and the co-op where these buildings are is below the road that I

12 used to go to my home.

13 Q. And on the 13th, I take it you were not in Kravica?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Now, let me ask you about Kravica, the 14th. You are a native of

16 Kravica, are you not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And in fact you are a teacher, even the principal, of the Kravica

19 school there?

20 A. Yes, I was.

21 Q. So you know where the school in Kravica is?

22 A. Of course I do, yes.

23 Q. Now, on the 14th when you were there, were you made aware by

24 anybody about the presence of Muslim men who were being detained on buses

25 and trucks parked in front of the school building?

Page 8031

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, before the -- before he answers that

2 question, when he was there. The previous question was: Does he know

3 where the school is? The next question is: When you were there, the

4 implication being or the suggestion that he was at the Kravica school the

5 day before. So I would like a clear question, in light of the language

6 differences. If he was at the school, and if so that question can be

7 asked. But the way it's phrased, I'm afraid it's somewhat confusing. And

8 perhaps, if I could assist my colleague, if he could ask some questions

9 how far is the school from the agricultural centre, that way we can all

10 have our bearings for some of us who haven't been there, me not being one

11 of them.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

13 Mr. Waespi, maybe you could ask more questions.

14 MR. WAESPI:

15 Q. You testified you were at the church in Kravica on the 12th?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you also told us that you had some land in Kravica?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, in relation to the school in Kravica, how far away is your

20 land?

21 A. My land and my family home are 2 kilometres and 300 metres away

22 from the school in Kravica.

23 Q. And the school in Kravica, how far away from the road between

24 Bratunac and Konjevic Polje is that school?

25 A. The road going from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje passes right by the

Page 8032

1 Oka co-op. And the school is about 200 or 300 metres away from the road,

2 to the side of the road.

3 Q. Okay. And to the side, meaning towards the village which is north

4 of the road or south of the road?

5 A. Parallel to the road, on the right-hand side is the school. And

6 it's about 300 metres away from the road.

7 Q. And how far away from the co-op, the actual Kravica warehouse, is

8 the school?

9 A. The school is about 500 metres away from the warehouse.

10 Q. Now, we've heard that you were there during those days after the

11 fall of Srebrenica a substantial amount of time in Kravica. Is that

12 correct?

13 A. I spent time in Kravica, as I said, on the 14th, the 15th, and the

14 16th. That was three days. But I did go home to Bratunac to sleep at

15 home, and I would go back to Kravica in the morning. This was the period

16 I mentioned just a while ago when the civilian protection forces were

17 carrying out the asanacija, the sanitisation, of the terrain and of the

18 warehouse.

19 Q. Now -- and you were there in Kravica also on the 12th, as we have

20 heard?

21 A. Well, if I'm to be quite precise, I have to say that on the 12th I

22 was in the village of Bacici, which belongs to Kravica. On the 12th, I

23 passed through Kravica and went to my hamlet, spent the day there, and

24 went back to Bratunac. On the 12th, I didn't spend time in Kravica, as

25 such. I wasn't actually in Kravica; I was in a small hamlet about 2

Page 8033

1 kilometres away from Kravica. And the name of this hamlet is Bacici.

2 Q. And you also know many people in Kravica. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Now, going back to my original question, in all these times

5 you were in Kravica during those days, and even later, have you heard that

6 Muslim men were being detained in the school in Kravica during these days,

7 between the 12th and the 15th?

8 A. No, no. I didn't hear about that.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Just for the record, I just want to make sure.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: I think the question should have been whether,

12 whether. We haven't had any live witnesses, viva voce witnesses, come in

13 here and say that. So I understand there is a statement from one

14 witness --

15 MR. WAESPI: That's simply not correct, Mr. Karnavas.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think in cross-examination the Prosecution

17 could ask these kind of questions. There's no problem.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, if my memory serves me correct - and perhaps

19 I'm a little tired - I don't recall a witness coming in here saying that

20 there were prisoners in the Kravica school. I could be wrong.

21 MR. WAESPI: It's Witness 135, Mr. President.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well. I withdraw the objection, and I

23 apologise for the interruption.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

25 MR. WAESPI:

Page 8034

1 Q. Let me ask you whether you know where the supermarket is in

2 Kravica.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I ask you the same question: Are you aware of the detention of

5 Muslim men on buses and trucks parked in front or near the supermarket in

6 any of those days?

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Now, on this one I'm going to object. This is the

8 one, and I confused them. On this one we don't have any viva voce

9 witnesses.

10 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President --

11 JUDGE LIU: That's not a reason for objecting to this question.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: The way the question is phrased is if we're talking

13 about a fact. I will concede the point on the earlier one with respect to

14 the schools. But with respect to buses, as I understand it, we haven't

15 heard any viva voce witnesses who will be subject to cross-examination and

16 confrontation. So that's why I'm objecting. If the question was posed as

17 whether, whether there were as opposed to that there were, one being the

18 possibility that they were there versus the fact that they were there.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, there's some nuances in this question, but I

20 don't think it's a great deal. You may proceed.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Mr. President.

22 MR. WAESPI: Just for the record it's Witness 112, indeed, a

23 92 bis witness, but I don't see the relevance in terms of evidentiary

24 value in cross-examination.

25 Q. Now, if you could please ask -- answer the question, witness. Did

Page 8035

1 you hear, are you aware, of the presence of detained people near the

2 supermarket in Kravica these days?

3 A. No, I wasn't aware of that. I didn't hear about it.

4 Q. Did you hear any gunfire while you were there in Kravica on the

5 12th?

6 A. No.

7 Q. On the 14th did you go into Kravica itself, the village of

8 Kravica?

9 A. On the 14th I went from Bratunac to the premises of the co-op. I

10 didn't enter the village; I went directly to the co-op, which is about

11 500 metres away from the centre of the village.

12 Q. How far away from the road is the supermarket?

13 A. It's right by the road, by the roadside.

14 Q. When you came on the 14th, did you see any buses or trucks being

15 parked outside the supermarket?

16 A. No. There weren't any.

17 Q. Going back to or staying on this topic on the 14th in Kravica,

18 now, was there anybody you knew in Kravica that morning? And you may have

19 to repeat the names which you have given to us.

20 A. When I arrived in the compound of the co-op, I was with

21 Dragan Nikolic. We entered the co-op compound. On the left-hand side

22 where the warehouses are, we saw the scene I described a short while ago.

23 And because it's very upsetting for me, I wouldn't like to repeat it.

24 When I entered the co-op compound, on the other side where there are a few

25 houses, five or six elderly villagers came in and started going toward the

Page 8036

1 buildings in the coop. These are elderly people who lived there,

2 Sveto Milanovic, Slavorad Vasic, Savo Redjenovic [phoen], Perica Vasovic,

3 and also the guards who were employed by the co-op, Vuko Markovic,

4 Zoran Eric, Milos Cvjetinovic. These are the people who were there when I

5 entered the co-op compound.

6 Q. Now, did you see Krsto Simic among these people?

7 A. No. Krsto Simic arrived on the following day. He was recruited

8 to do that work, and I saw him on the following day, not on that day.

9 Q. And what was he doing on the following day?

10 A. Operating the loading and transport machinery.

11 Q. And what kind of machinery was he using, Mr. Simic?

12 A. Building construction machinery for loading. I don't know what

13 the correct name is, but these are large machines. I don't know the exact

14 name of this type of machine.

15 Q. Now, on the 14th did you see any heavy machinery operating?

16 A. No. They arrived on the 14th after I had been to Bratunac and

17 come back to Kravica. And then our civilian municipal authorities

18 recruited -- or rather, engaged the civilian protection and the utilities

19 company. And a team arrived in Kravica on that day, the 14th. A group

20 arrived. We didn't do anything on that day. And on the following day,

21 the Saturday, they began loading and burying -- or rather, evacuating the

22 corpses.

23 Q. Now, talking about these corpses. When you were there on the 14th

24 in the morning, tell us about these dead bodies you have seen, these

25 corpses. How many were there?

Page 8037

1 A. I can't say exactly how many there were. I can give you my own

2 estimation, but there were quite a few corpses in both warehouses.

3 Q. So you looked inside the warehouses?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember having given the number of 500 when you talked to

6 the investigators?

7 A. I don't remember the number I mentioned, but I think at the time

8 this was just a rough estimate. I cannot be precise. I cannot be sure

9 whether it was 500, more, or less. I truly don't know the precise number.

10 Q. Now, how many members does the Bratunac Brigade have?

11 A. How many did they have?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. I don't know. I really don't know.

14 Q. So you are claiming you know every member of the Bratunac Brigade?

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. He never claimed that. How do you get

16 from not knowing how many to knowing who they are? It's just -- there's a

17 great leap.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, during the direct examination the

19 witness said that he used to be in the Bratunac Brigade, he knows many

20 people in that brigade. So that's why the Prosecution asked this question

21 in the cross-examination.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: I agree, Mr. President. But he says: "So you are

23 claiming you know every member?"

24 He never claimed that he knew every member. There is a

25 distinction; he knows many, but not every. I don't want him to be

Page 8038

1 misleading -- confusing the witness for the purposes of trying to set him

2 into a trap. I know where he's going and I don't have a problem with that.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi, maybe you should rephrase your

4 question.

5 MR. WAESPI: Certainly, Mr. President.

6 Q. Earlier today you said that you were sure that the executioners

7 weren't members of the Bratunac Brigade. Is that correct?

8 A. I'm convinced that they were not, and I can support this by the

9 fact that I had been physically attacked by those people and almost

10 killed. As for my statement with respect to knowing the brigade, it's a

11 fact that I know many men. I can't say that each and every member of the

12 brigade knew me, but I'm sure that many of them knew me. 95 per cent of

13 them knew me, in view of my activities before the war and my activities

14 while I was a member of the Bratunac Brigade.

15 Q. Yes, but there could have been members of the Bratunac Brigade

16 which you did not know present on that morning. Do you agree with me?

17 A. There might have been some men I didn't know, but I am sure that

18 there were very few who did not know me.

19 Q. Okay. Let me ask you about the next issue. You said you went to

20 the civilian authorities and basically informed them about what you have

21 seen. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And I believe you said that Mr. Simic was there and that

24 Mr. Deronjic came later?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8039

1 Q. Do you remember telling the investigators that Mr. Deronjic wasn't

2 there?

3 A. I remember I said Deronjic wasn't there when I arrived, but it's a

4 fact that while I was in the office of the president of the Executive

5 Board, Deronjic entered the office.

6 Q. Well, that's not what you said to the investigators. You were

7 asked a clear question, and I can --

8 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --

9 MR. WAESPI: If the counsel wants.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Now we're having testimony from counsel. If he

11 wants to point to a page, ask him: "Was this question asked? Did you

12 give this answer?" I don't have a problem, but I don't want any testimony

13 from counsel. If he can help us out here so we can also locate what

14 question was posed, what answer was given.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 MR. WAESPI: I can certainly refer him to the B/C/S statement.

17 Perhaps he could be provided with a version.

18 Your Honours, it's -- in the English version on page 34, line 9 to

19 19. And hopefully Your Honours will be provided with a witness statement

20 as well if you want that.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, we could just put that on the ELMO.

22 MR. WAESPI: Certainly we can do that. Page 34, the English

23 version. And the B/C/S version would be page 30, about from line 29

24 onwards.

25 Q. So the English version -- I'm starting from page -- from line 8.

Page 8040

1 And in the B/C/S version, it's page 30, line about 28. You were asked:

2 "What other members of leadership were there that you told this to?"

3 And your answer was: "And president of the local government

4 Davidovic.

5 "Q. What was his exact title?

6 A. President of the municipal government, president of

7 the executive council.

8 Q. Okay. And anyone else there?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Was Miroslav Deronjic there?

11 A. No."

12 And it goes on.

13 "Q. In fact, what was his position at this time?

14 A. I really don't know. He had no position.

15 Q. Were you the member of the SDS party?

16 A. Yes."

17 And so on and so on. Do you see anything in here saying that he

18 came in later?

19 A. I don't see it here, but it is a fact that he came, and this is

20 why I wish to add to what is stated here that I found in the office of the

21 Executive Board the president of the municipality. We stayed there

22 talking. I informed about this, and then Deronjic came later.

23 Q. Now, afterwards you testified that you went back to Kravica. Is

24 that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8041

1 Q. In fact, you went back to the crime scene?

2 A. I went to Kravica, because civilian authority said that civilian

3 protection would come there after me -- or rather, the team in charge of

4 sanitisation measures and the retrieval of corpses. So as a managing

5 director of the co-op, I was duty-bound to contribute to that effort, to

6 be there, and that was the reason why I went back there.

7 Q. So you went back is there to the warehouse where you have seen the

8 executions. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. A scene you have described to the investigators as "genocide,"

11 "horrible," "ugly."

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, well -- now we're getting into whether

15 this man thought this was genocide. And I take it that this is going to

16 be part of their argument, since Mr. -- this gentleman, who they're trying

17 to impeach, thought it was genocide, then obviously a genocide had

18 occurred. I do object to this line of questioning.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, what other words to you suggest they shall use?

20 Mass killings?

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I would like to know what the

22 relevancy of this line of questioning is. He has described an event. The

23 Prosecution have stood up during their case saying that all Serbs deny

24 that this is going on. Now you have somebody coming in here who reported

25 it immediately and told the Prosecution and is telling the Court without

Page 8042

1 any protective measures so that the entire world knows what he saw on that

2 particular day. So I don't know what the purpose is of having him go back

3 and describe what he said.

4 JUDGE LIU: No, no, Mr. Karnavas. The question is that: "A scene

5 you have described to the investigators as 'genocide,' 'horrible,'

6 'ugly.'"

7 If you do not agree with this -- what the Prosecution said, you

8 may ask the Prosecution to find out where it is in the transcript or in

9 the statements.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: My question is to --

11 JUDGE LIU: But if the witness really said that, well --

12 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no objection, Your Honour. We brought the

13 witness here, not the Prosecution. We readily admit that he saw

14 atrocities occur. But I guess my question is: He testified to that on

15 direct, what is the relevancy at this point in time?

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Waespi --

17 MR. WAESPI: I can explain, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE LIU: Can you find that statement made by this witness on

19 that very issue?

20 MR. WAESPI: Certainly.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. WAESPI: It's in the English version on page 30, line 27 to

23 30. And in the B/C/S version it must be around page 26. Perhaps if it

24 could be placed on the ELMO. And the question I have is: If it was so

25 horrible and if the witness even said he was threatened, physically

Page 8043

1 attacked, why he would go back on his free will to that scene. That's my

2 question I would like to get an answer from this witness.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Then I withdraw my objection. I do not have a

4 problem with that.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you please repeat the

7 question.

8 MR. WAESPI:

9 Q. Yes. Mr. Nikolic, you just heard what I said. I quoted you, your

10 words. And I remind you that you told us you were physically attacked.

11 And now you are going back to that scene which you have seen --

12 A. I did not immediately go back. I spent a certain period of time

13 in town. I also went to my administrative building. I consulted some

14 people there. And then after I received the news from the municipality

15 that the team for sanitation measures were headed there, only after that

16 did I go there myself. And as I have described in the beginning, at that

17 Kravica site we had a production going on. We had cattle there. We had

18 some people there who worked at the site. So my task was to take care of

19 these people and to see what was to be done with them. So all of these

20 are the reasons why I was concerned and why I went there.

21 Q. So you have seen these bodies. You don't know the number. You

22 told us -- you told the investigators 500. It doesn't matter. Using your

23 words, "genocide" and so on, "horrible." The only thing you are concerned

24 about is that your business is operating well. Is that what you are

25 saying today?

Page 8044

1 A. No, no, no. No. The civilian authorities at the municipality

2 told me that the team headed to Kravica was getting ready. So it wasn't

3 half an hour that passed, but rather three or four hours passed. I wasn't

4 alone to go there. The entire team went there. And I was among the

5 people who went. I didn't go to Bratunac just to report what had happened

6 and then immediate go back. I am telling you that quite a lot of time

7 passed between these two events, several hours. So I wasn't alone who

8 went back; the entire team went back, and I was on that team. (redacted),

9 (redacted), Nikolic, the people working in the utilities went back, and I was

10 among them. I didn't say that I was only concerned with the cattle, and

11 that was the only reason I went back there. That's not true. I said

12 among other things, there was also that aspect. After all we had people

13 from the co-op at the site and we needed to help them to enable them to go

14 back to their homes. So a period of time passed between my arrival in

15 Bratunac, the departure of the sanitisation team, and my return back

16 there. I didn't go back there alone.

17 Q. Let me just finish that part. How many executioners were there?

18 A. As I have already said there were four or five people in

19 camouflage uniforms there. I saw a group of people. They were executing.

20 That's all I saw as I was entering the compound.

21 Q. Now, let me turn to another subject briefly. You told us that you

22 have seen buses with children, I believe, and women on the way to Kladanj.

23 Do you remember that?

24 A. The buses with children or the buses headed towards Kladanj I saw

25 on the 12th. I didn't see whether there were just women and children

Page 8045

1 there. That was on the 12th. And on the 13th, as I've said to you, there

2 were buses leaving the area. I wasn't watching them alone. There were

3 other people watching the buses as they were leaving town and heading

4 towards Kladanj.

5 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, if we briefly could go into private

6 session for one or two questions.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session, please.

8 [Private session]

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8046

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Pages 8046 to 8048 redacted private session.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 8049

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 [Open session]

5 MR. WAESPI:

6 Q. Just a couple more issues, Mr. Nikolic. Do you remember having

7 seen Dragan Mirkovic at the Bratunac Brigade in the days after the fall of

8 Srebrenica, together with Momir Nikolic?

9 A. No. I saw Dragan Mirkovic in Kravica when he came with the task

10 to clean up the terrain, together with a team including Ljupko Ilic and

11 the other people. So we stayed there on Saturday and Sunday performing

12 those tasks. I never saw him at the brigade. I couldn't have.

13 Q. So if a witness said that, that would not be correct?

14 A. I didn't understand your question.

15 Q. So if a witness would have said that, that would not be correct?

16 A. Then it's a lie.

17 Q. Okay. Let me perhaps finish and, in fact, following up what you

18 just said, your last words about untruths. We heard today that you never

19 mentioned Momir Nikolic as being together with you going to Potocari on

20 the 13th. And I believe you gave your explanations about that.

21 Now, you were extremely explicit when you talked to the

22 investigators about telling the truth. And in fact, that's what you

23 repeated today, that you came here to tell the whole story. And let me

24 quote what you told the investigators when you met with them in

25 Banja Luka.

Page 8050

1 MR. WAESPI: Perhaps if it could be put on the ELMO. Page 3,

2 English version.

3 Q. And for you, Mr. Nikolic, it's page 3, lines 26 to 27. And I

4 would just like to quote what it says.

5 "I came following this summons, not to defend myself but to speak

6 the truth about the events that took place in the area of Bratunac and

7 Srebrenica."

8 And you end with an equally emphatic statement. Last page of the

9 English version, page 41, lines 3 to 6. And the B/C/S version page 37,

10 lines I believe also 3 to 6. After being asked about Momir Nikolic and

11 not responding anything you said, and I quote: "And nobody had ever asked

12 me any questions about what happened in Srebrenica in 1995. And I was

13 very much surprised that I was summoned to come here as a suspect. And

14 everything I said is the truth about," and then unintelligible word,"and

15 that's why what I told you is the absolute truth about the events."

16 In fact, also when you talked to the police in Bratunac way after

17 Momir Nikolic pleaded guilty, you stuck to the story that you never heard

18 anything about being accompanied by Momir Nikolic and indeed

19 Mr. Vasovic, you never mentioned him in your statement to the Bratunac

20 police. Is that correct?

21 A. I don't have the statement I gave to the police. However, as for

22 Momir Nikolic, I've already said what I needed to say. And I apologise to

23 the Prosecution. I said that our town is a small one and that I had

24 contact with him before going to Banja Luka. We talked, and he insisted

25 that I do not mention his name with respect to the trip to Potocari. In

Page 8051

1 view of his insistence and in view of the fact that nobody even asked me

2 whether I went there with Momir, they just asked me whether I went there

3 myself, so I corrected my testimony today with respect to that. And I

4 stated that Momir Nikolic had gone with me to Potocari.

5 Q. Let me give you then this testimony -- this witness statement you

6 gave to the Bratunac police. It dates 26 August 2003.

7 MR. WAESPI: If the witness could be shown the statement, and we

8 have an English translation which could be placed on to the ELMO. And I'm

9 reading from the last paragraph of the first page in English.

10 Q. And in your B/C/S version it's -- in the middle it starts: "Nakon

11 toga..."

12 Let me read out what the English version says: "After that I was

13 cautioned that pursuant to article 219, item 2 of the ZKP of Republika

14 Srpska, he did not have to answer the questions of the authorised person,

15 except giving his personal details. After being told what his position

16 was and what his rights as a witness, according to article 150 of the ZKP

17 of Republika Srpska where he was warned that he had to speak the truth,

18 that he should not keep secrets, and that false testifying was a criminal

19 act."

20 Again, you have not complied with that, you have not told the

21 truth. You were specifically asked about Momir Nikolic. Let's turn to

22 the last page, page 5, English version. And in your version, it's almost

23 the last paragraph starts with: "Ostala pitanja..."

24 In English it says: "I don't know the persons which are mentioned

25 in the statements of Momir Nikolic, and in other documents, and I cannot

Page 8052

1 talk about that." So you were specifically referred to Momir Nikolic, and

2 you choose not to answer truthfully.

3 JUDGE LIU: I think the witness is going to answer this question,

4 Mr. Karnavas.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well. I want to note my strong objection on

6 this one, because this is clearly inappropriate. There is nothing to

7 suggest that he was asked a question about Momir Nikolic in Potocari. And

8 I think if we read what's being said, it's being taken way out of context.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, let's hear what the witness is

10 going to tell us. We could read this paragraph by ourselves.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The other questions where I say that

12 the rest of the details concerning Srebrenica is something that I was not

13 familiar with, because there were no reasons for me to know the details of

14 the operation or specific parts of the action. I don't know the persons

15 which are mentioned in the statements of Momir Nikolic and other

16 documents, and I cannot talk about that. And who -- if you follow the

17 testimony of Momir Nikolic, then you will know that he spoke specifically

18 about people he had seen in Kravica whom he considers as having taken part

19 in the killing of Muslims in Kravica. I said that I knew nothing about

20 this and I didn't want to state anything further. The person questioning

21 me did not insist on this aspect. So what is stated here is true. None

22 of it is not true. I didn't know anything about Srebrenica, any military

23 aspects, because I was not a member of the brigade and I did not

24 participate in those events. As for what Momir Nikolic said about the

25 events in Kravica, I didn't want to give any comments regarding that. I

Page 8053

1 didn't want to state anything. So this statement I gave to the police is

2 what it is.

3 MR. WAESPI: I have no further questions, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

5 Any re-direct? Mr. Karnavas?

6 MR. KARNAVAS: Certainly, Your Honour. And I'll keep it brief.

7 I'll keep it brief.

8 Re-examined by Mr. Karnavas:

9 Q. Since we have the statements there and since the insinuation has

10 been that you were protecting Miroslav Deronjic or failed to mention him,

11 could you please look at your statement, and in fact I have it marked for

12 you the statement that you gave. And we can put on the ELMO page 3. We

13 can put on the ELMO page 3, and I've even marked the area or I can read it

14 into the record. Page 3 in the English version towards the bottom. You

15 state, and I'll just read. It says: "I returned in my car to Bratunac

16 and went to the municipal building. There I found assembly president

17 Ljubisav Simic, executive committee chairman" - it's a misspelling of the

18 first name - "Davidovic, and commissioner Miroslav Deronjic."

19 So when you spoke to the police on 26 August 2003, it would appear

20 that you mentioned Deronjic as being one of the individuals that you saw

21 when you went there to report what you had witnessed in Kravica on the

22 morning of July 14th, 1995. Isn't that a fact?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Okay. Now, a couple of matters. You indicated, you indicated --

25 we won't need that anymore, so you can put the documents down. I'll be

Page 8054

1 very brief.

2 You indicated what you saw at the Kravica warehouse on the morning

3 of July 14th, 1995. Are you fabricating this? Are you making this up,

4 that there were Serb soldiers executing Muslims at that period of time in

5 that warehouse on that morning when you went there? Is this a lie on your

6 part?

7 A. I think it would be absurd for me to make something like this up.

8 Why would I make it up?

9 Q. All right. Now, had you seen, sir, had you seen buses and trucks

10 in Kravica? Okay. And I'm talking about by the school or by the

11 supermarket, as has been suggested. If you had seen those trucks with men

12 in them or those buses with men in them, would there be any reason for you

13 to conceal that fact, in light of the fact that you went to the municipal

14 authorities on the morning of the 14th to report the executions that you

15 had seen. And then when called upon by the Prosecution to give a

16 statement, you again repeated what you had seen? Is there any reason why

17 you would conceal those facts?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Now --

20 A. There wouldn't be any reason, and I didn't conceal them.

21 Q. Now, you indicated -- the question was posed to you whether you

22 knew every member of the Bratunac Brigade and how could you be sure that

23 the individuals there were not from the Bratunac Brigade. And I just want

24 to make sure that I understand the reasoning behind your assertion that

25 they were not from Bratunac -- from the Bratunac Brigade. And if I

Page 8055

1 understand you correctly, what you're suggesting is in light of your

2 position in the community and the fact that people knew you, you find it

3 difficult to believe that somebody from the Bratunac Brigade --

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi --

5 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm entitled to finish my question for the

6 record --

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

8 MR. WAESPI: I don't know, is he cross-examining his own witness

9 now by leading that? I don't understand.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: My learned colleague obviously does not know

11 redirect examination. I'm entitled to put a predicate before the

12 question.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm more that happy to give him instructions later

15 after the session.

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, but you are asking a leading question.

17 You're putting the answers in your question.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll rephrase.

19 JUDGE LIU: The first matter is I believe the witness has already

20 mentioned that issue in your direct examination and also cross-examined by

21 the Prosecution. If there is still certain points you are not clear on,

22 you may raise some questions concerning that particular question rather

23 than repeat your question again and again by putting your answers in your

24 questions.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. I wasn't quite sure that

Page 8056

1 the point had been crystal clear in the record. I'll rephrase.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

3 MR. KARNAVAS:

4 Q. Would you please explain to us why it is that you think that those

5 individuals were not from the Bratunac Brigade.

6 A. I will repeat once more that when I entered Kravica and arrived at

7 the warehouse, I saw the scene that I have described. The incident that

8 occurred after I reacted to what was going on there and to the killings

9 that had been committed there was that actually I had been physically

10 attacked and was almost killed. I think that some other witnesses who

11 were in the compound have made similar statements. My conclusion and my

12 assertion that these men could not have been members of the

13 Bratunac Brigade follows from the fact that for many years I had been the

14 principal of the school, the president of the Alliance of Socialists, that

15 I had been deputy commander of the brigade for the defence of the village

16 of Kravica. There were very few people who didn't know me. Of course, I

17 knew many members of the brigade, but I cannot say that I knew each and

18 every one of them.

19 Q. Okay. Now, the Prosecution has insinuated -- in fact, they have

20 come out and directly accused you of being dishonest, untruthful, with the

21 Prosecution in -- when you gave your statement because you failed to

22 mention the fact that Momir Nikolic was with you on the morning of the

23 13th. Were you aware that Momir Nikolic was untruthful to the Prosecutor

24 when he testified and that he was --

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Waespi.

Page 8057

1 MR. WAESPI: I don't see the point in that, and certainly not in

2 re-direct why he's pursuing that.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: The point is it goes to motive. The point is

4 Momir Nikolic gave a statement before this gentleman, and obviously now

5 Momir Nikolic wanted to cover his tracks. So now Momir Nikolic goes to

6 somebody that he knows is about to be -- to give a statement, and now he's

7 telling this individual to keep his name out of the picture. That's the

8 point I'm trying to make.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I believe that matter is quite

10 clear. I don't think you need to ask this question again. And by the

11 way, Momir Nikolic is not on trial in this case.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: He may not be on trial, Your Honour, but the

13 Prosecution in their brief, the 98 bis brief has embraced Momir Nikolic as

14 being a truthful and honest witness. They're relying on him, their star

15 witness, in trying to implicate and convict my client. Therefore,

16 Momir Nikolic's credibility is in doubt throughout this case.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt. But it's

19 getting late in the day. If we can put an end to the antics and the

20 argument, especially in front of the witness. If this is necessary, if it

21 can be done outside the presence of the witness. We can all hash out what

22 the Prosecution said about Momir Nikolic.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I believe you.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions, Your Honour. I was

25 merely trying to assist the Trial Chamber.

Page 8058

1 JUDGE LIU: I hope so. I really hope so.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you very much.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Judge Argibay.

4 JUDGE ARGIBAY: I do have one question.

5 Questioned by the Court:

6 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Good afternoon, sir. You remember you told us

7 that this man -- the killers, let's say, were in uniform.

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Although you couldn't see their faces. But did

10 they have any insignias, characteristical pieces of -- a belt or a

11 bandanna or something like that?

12 A. This was the usual sort of camouflage uniform with the belts worn

13 by the Army of Republika Srpska. There were no special characteristics on

14 this uniform.

15 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Insignias?

16 A. I didn't notice any insignia.

17 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

18 JUDGE LIU: Judge Vassylenko.

19 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: You testified that since long time you knew

20 Momir Nikolic and Vidoje Blagojevic. And may I ask you to provide the

21 Bench with any information as to relationship between Momir Nikolic and

22 Colonel Blagojevic as members of the Bratunac Brigade or as -- in, let us

23 say, as private persons.

24 A. I was not a member of the brigade when Vidoje Blagojevic was the

25 commander, so I cannot say anything about the relations between Momir and

Page 8059

1 Vidoje. I already had an opinion about Momir, which may or may not be

2 correct. As for Vidoje Blagojevic, the people in the town and in our

3 municipality generally thought that he was a good and honourable man. And

4 that was my impression of him when I met him. To be true, I didn't have

5 much in common with Colonel Blagojevic.

6 JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Hvala. I have no more questions.

7 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of Judges' questions, Mr. Karnavas?

8 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 Mr. Waespi?

11 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE LIU: At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

13 Mr. Karnavas?

14 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Waespi?

16 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

18 Well, witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give

19 your evidence. The usher will show you out of the room. And all of us

20 wish you a pleasant journey back home.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, what shall we do at this stage? Mr. Karnavas,

23 I'm seeking your assistance.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm always willing to assist, Your Honour, when I

25 can. I was prepared to call the next witness; however, Mr. Waespi and

Page 8060

1 I -- well, Mr. Waespi, who is also doing the cross-examination, suggested

2 that we take the witness tomorrow, and I thought, you know, since he's

3 asking for that courtesy, I didn't object to it. And since I don't think

4 that that witness is going to be more than a session combined, you

5 know -- you know, for both cross and direct. He's a little bit shorter

6 than this gentleman, so I believe -- and since he's scheduled for tomorrow

7 and I have no other witnesses after that, I conceded the point that we

8 should have him tomorrow. Perhaps I overstepped my boundaries in agreeing

9 to that. But I still maintain and believe that we will be able to handle

10 the witness and have the Status Conference tomorrow.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. And are there any protective measures for

12 tomorrow's --

13 MR. KARNAVAS: No protective measures. And as far as proofing

14 notes, I don't believe that there are any. I mean, I met with the

15 gentleman, I spoke to him, and he more or less states what he

16 stated -- what I put in his summary, with one qualification. I will set

17 out and type out some proofing notes anyway just to be on the safe side

18 and have them faxed and e-mailed tonight.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, you are not forced to do that unless it's

20 absolutely necessary.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: All right very well. And then for the next week we

22 have four. We understand Friday is off. At some point I will be taking

23 advantage of the situation where we end slightly early to have another

24 witness ready. We're still trying to get everybody with their passports,

25 so it's going to take a little time. But we think we're going to get

Page 8061

1 everything rolling, because we appreciate the time the Court has given us

2 to put our case together, and we don't want to disappoint by having free

3 time.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, one witness for one day is a general principle,

5 but we notice in the future that you might have, say, six hours witness

6 for the direct examination, so we have to save some time for those

7 witnesses.

8 MR. KARNAVAS: I fully agree with you.

9 JUDGE LIU: Are there any matters that the parties would like to

10 bring to the attention?

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Nothing.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

13 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. And there's a procedural matter, a

15 scheduling matter. I have to announce that next week we have to be in

16 Courtroom II for the proceedings. I know there is a disadvantage for

17 Courtroom II, especially for the public hearing. But in the other cases

18 they need -- I was told that they need much space for the big model.

19 So the hearing is adjourned. We'll resume tomorrow morning at

20 9.00.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

22 at 5.47 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

23 the 23rd day of April, 2004,

24 at 9.00 a.m.

25