Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8313

1 Wednesday, 28 April 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-02-60-T, The Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Good morning, everybody.

9 Before we have the next witness, are there any matters that the

10 parties would like to raise at this stage? Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning, Mr. President, good morning, Your

12 Honours. Just a small matter that I think we may need some clarification

13 for the record for purposes. Yesterday, Ms. Issa quoted from the

14 Borovcanin transcript that was -- he gave two statements. One was on

15 February 20th 2002 and one was in 11 March 2002. We don't know which one.

16 But the question that was posed after the exchange that we had with

17 respect to whether it should be used or not used was this, and I'm

18 quoting. I have the unofficial transcript, but it's from page 57, line

19 25, and it goes on. It says: "Sir, Mr. Borovcanin told the office of the

20 Prosecutor investigators that Milos Stupar was there, and that he found

21 you and Mr. Stupar and asked you not to move from that position."

22 From reading, this it would appear he found both of them together

23 at the same time. Of course, the witness indicated he had not seen

24 Mr. Stupar. So I would like to know, because I went through the

25 transcript of the two statements, clearly Mr. Borovcanin says that he saw

Page 8314

1 Mr. Stupar there, and that he saw Mr. -- the other witness there. But I

2 don't see anywhere in the transcript where it says or at least where it's

3 clear that you can draw some inference that they were together at the time

4 when he saw them. And so I would some clarification. Perhaps

5 Mr. McCloskey can ask Ms. Issa where it was in the record so that this can

6 be clarified. Because if that's not the case, then I just don't want the

7 Court to give -- to have the impression that the witness was less than

8 candid when he said he didn't see Mr. Stupar as a result of what

9 Mr. Borovcanin said. Am I being clear, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think you are quite clear, and I quite

11 understand what you are saying. And during the cross-examination, I

12 believe that the hearsay evidence could be used as a base for the

13 cross-examination. And as for what kind of conclusion the Trial Chamber

14 will arrive is another matter. And we'll put the last testimony of the

15 witness at the first place.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, with all due respect, I didn't

17 intervene yesterday as I would normally intervene because I thought the

18 Court was getting a little bit perhaps irritated, to use what I believe I

19 felt at the time, because perhaps the Court thought I was intervening too

20 much. I don't want there to be a misunderstanding as far as what

21 Mr. Borovcanin said. The practice normally is for the attorney to read,

22 this is what Mr. Borovcanin said so we have exactly what he said. Nothing

23 in the statement indicates that he saw them both together. The question

24 the way it was posed would give the impression that they were both

25 together at the same time when Mr. Borovcanin saw them. All I want is to

Page 8315

1 know where in the transcript that's there, because there's a -- she made a

2 representation that is in the transcript. If it's not in the transcript,

3 then at least we need to have some explanation why the question was posed

4 in that fashion? Or at least the record to be clear that he saw both of

5 them but not together at the same time. That's all I'm saying.

6 JUDGE LIU: I quite understand what you are saying. Yes,

7 Mr. McCloskey.

8 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we can clear it up. March 11th, 2002,

9 page 40 in the English transcript. "Where did you actually travel do?

10 Where did you meet up with your unit commanders?"

11 Mr. Borovcanin: "I reached Sandici."

12 Question: "And who did you meet there?"

13 Mr. Borovcanin: "I found Pantic and Stupar, and I forgot to tell

14 you that Zoju Daniolo [phoen] was with me. Zoju Daniolo, he was with me."

15 MR. KARNAVAS: It doesn't say they were together. He found both

16 of them.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas --

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I would appreciate if Mr. McCloskey

19 would behave himself and conduct himself like a professional and not like

20 a clown.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I'm not happy with your language

22 and the term you used in this courtroom.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm trying to make a point. I'm

24 trying to make a record. And from the other side, we have, you know,

25 these commotions. I'm not used to being in a courtroom where on the other

Page 8316

1 side a professional conducts himself in that fashion.

2 JUDGE LIU: I believe that Mr. McCloskey just tried to help you in

3 this aspect.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE LIU: And I thought that the question put by Ms. Issa

6 yesterday has no problem at all because I believe that the Prosecution

7 also want to know, to make clear, whether they are together or not. So

8 she posed this question. It will help us to understand the situation.

9 And by the way, we'll have, you know, other witnesses to testify to this

10 effect. If we could make this matter clear, it's better. It's for the

11 benefit of all the parties.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand, Mr. President. That's all I was

13 trying to do, is to try to make it clear.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

15 And another matter, yesterday we received bundles of the documents

16 which are the statements furnished by the Defence counsel. Well, for this

17 case, we have enough documents on our shelves, and I believe that in the

18 future the Chamber only needs two sets of the documents consisting of the

19 previous statements of the witness. No more than that. I believe that

20 will reduce the burdens from the Defence team, to copy so many documents.

21 Is that all right?

22 MR. KARNAVAS: That's fine. I was unaware that we had been making

23 these copies.

24 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's piled up.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well. I'm sure it was done. I just was

Page 8317

1 unaware of it, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Are you ready for the next witness?

3 MR. KARNAVAS: I am, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE LIU: Are there any protective measures?

5 MR. KARNAVAS: There are none, Your Honour. He was questioned as

6 a suspect. I will go into it in great detail as to that matter. And he

7 had indicated that he understood. He's a police officer. He understood

8 the nature of it at the time. He understands the ramifications today.

9 And he wishes to testify in open, public.

10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I doubt very much about the

11 phrase "go into it in great detail." You could mention that but do not go

12 into the details.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: In this instance, Your Honour, again, I don't mean

14 to be disputatious or argumentative; however, there is a portion that I

15 want to bring out to the Court's attention. There are a couple of pages

16 where the gentleman gave a description of the events. Mr. McCloskey

17 entered into the courtroom, and there was this huge exchange where

18 Mr. McCloskey made some allegations against the gentleman. And then in

19 spite of that, despite of being told that he was being untruthful and what

20 have you, the gentleman again after being advised of his rights went ahead

21 and gave some 80-plus pages of a statement. And I think it goes -- if

22 we're going to judge somebody's credibility, I think that has to be taken

23 into consideration. And I also want to make a very clear record as to how

24 this man was questioned because I think in the manner in which he was

25 questioned initially and advised of his lack of candor should be taken

Page 8318

1 into consideration as a factor whether he should be believed or not

2 believed versus other statements that the Prosecution is relying on,

3 primarily Mr. Borovcanin who is no where to be found, you know, although

4 he's wanted. And so, I think this is, this is necessary. But I'll try to

5 be as brief as I possibly can, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

7 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think the Chamber knows, we're not relying on

8 the statements of Mr. Borovcanin. We sometimes use that in our questions

9 to try to get at things. The interview with this man was perfectly

10 appropriate and proper. If the Court would like to have a copy of that

11 interview, I have no objection to that. But going into, you know, reading

12 question by question by question and spending forever putting the

13 Prosecution on trial is really not relevant and not appropriate. I have

14 no problem with the interview as it was. And if Mr. Karnavas wants the

15 Court to see it, fine. But this -- these attempts to paint the

16 Prosecution in this manner is really -- at this point I would hope it

17 would stop.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm entitled -- this is an open Court.

20 It's open to the public. The public is entitled to know how the

21 Prosecution is conducting their cases and how they are investigating their

22 cases and how they are indicting people and bringing them to trial. In

23 this instance, this man came as a suspect, was advised, and then was told

24 that he was a liar and that he was lying and being untruthful. And this

25 was over two or three pages of Mr. McCloskey basically telling him that he

Page 8319

1 was a totally uncooperative liar and then gave him another opportunity to

2 come clean. He was then advised of his rights. After that, the gentleman

3 refused to have a lawyer and went ahead and gave from page 19 all the way

4 to page 105 of a statement.

5 I think this is necessary for the Court to consider. I think it's

6 also necessary for the public to hear because this is after all a public

7 trial. And might I add, two days ago, the Prosecutor stood up and said we

8 have an executioner on the stand. That was front pages in the newspaper

9 the following day. So if the Prosecutor can take those measures to

10 demonstrate to the public who we have on trial and who we have as

11 witnesses, I think I'm entitled to do the same.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey -- I'm sorry. Mr. Karnavas, I

13 hope you could understand that here the subject matter is to see whether

14 your client is innocent or not, but not other matters. I hope your

15 questions will concentrate on this very issue. You could try how far you

16 could go, but just be careful that -- do not put the other side on the

17 trial.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I normally don't do that. But we have

19 this joint criminal enterprise. So it's not a matter of just focussing on

20 the client. I have to attack everything else, including these crime-based

21 witness statements that are -- crime-based evidence that has come in. Had

22 he been charged as an aider and abettor or as a coperpetrator, it's

23 different. But once you put him into this, Kafkaesque you know, form of

24 criminal liability, you know, this beast called the joint criminal

25 enterprise, something that is foreign to most of the world, then I'm

Page 8320

1 compelled to at least attack each and every sector of it because otherwise

2 if it goes unchallenged, then it comes into the judgement as something

3 that's proven fact. And everything is connected. So I try to try the

4 case that is relevant to Mr. Blagojevic but also, because a lot of things

5 are interconnected, I have to attack them. And as you see, I'm trying to

6 be as efficient as I possibly can.

7 JUDGE LIU: I'm not going to discuss with you at this moment about

8 the concept of the joint criminal enterprise because it's a very difficult

9 question. We have spent quite an amount of time on these procedural

10 issues and actually while eating your time.

11 So could we have the witness, please.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness. Would you please speak louder.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15 JUDGE LIU: Will you please take the solemn declaration in

16 accordance with the paper Madam Usher is showing to you.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

20 Mr. Karnavas.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.


23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:

25 Q. Good morning, sir.

Page 8321

1 A. Good morning.

2 Q. Now, you're going to need to speak up a little bit.

3 A. Good morning.

4 Q. Now, could you please tell us what your name is.

5 A. My name is Milos Stupar, and I am from Sekovici, Republika Srpska.

6 Q. All right. Could you please tell us your last name letter by

7 letter.

8 A. S-t-u-p-a-r.

9 Q. Okay. Mr. Stupar, you know that as you are testifying here today,

10 you are still -- you still have the status of a suspect?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, you were questioned by the Prosecutor on June 26th, 2002, and

13 at that time you were questioned as a suspect, were you not?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, currently, you are a police officer, are you not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What is your -- what do you currently -- where do you currently

18 work?

19 A. I work at the police station at Sekovici.

20 Q. What is your position there?

21 A. I'm an inspector for general crime.

22 Q. How long have you been a police officer?

23 A. About 11 years.

24 Q. Having worked for 11 years as a police officer and as an inspector

25 of general crime, I take it you understand what it is to be a suspect?

Page 8322

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Now, when you were questioned by the Prosecutor, you were advised,

3 were you not, that you had certain rights, one of them being that you

4 could have a lawyer there and you could choose not to even speak to them?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you speak to them?

7 A. You mean to the lawyer?

8 Q. Well, no, to the Prosecutor, when they questioned you, after they

9 advised you of your rights.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. Did you have a lawyer there with you?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Now, yesterday I provided you with a copy that we finally got that

14 was a cleaned-up copy of your interview that was taken on 26 June 2002.

15 Did you have a chance to read the cleaned-up version?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And before that, did you have an opportunity to read the previous

18 version?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And I take it that had been provided to you by the Office of the

21 Prosecution?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Well, it says here that they were going to provide you one within

24 about -- shortly after the interview. When was it that you got a copy of

25 your interview, statement?

Page 8323

1 A. I got that five or six days ago through some connections, not from

2 the Prosecution.

3 Q. Okay. Now, in reading your interview, it appears that initially

4 you gave a general description of the events surrounding the fall of

5 Srebrenica after -- primarily after June -- July 13, 1995. Is that

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And after that general description in your statement, it would

9 appear, that a gentleman sitting over here, Mr. McCloskey, came into the

10 room and then said that what you had been saying was untruthful lies. Is

11 that correct?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. That's a misstatement of

13 the question --

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- and what I've said. And it's leading. And now

16 of course he's going to want to read the whole thing, which is fine. Go

17 ahead. But again, it's -- this is getting really sickening.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: I could --

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please read that paragraph.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. If we could get it on the ELMO, and I

21 have -- I'll be reading from page 14 onwards.

22 Q. Page 14, and I can start at line 9. And there's a Srpski version

23 that we have for you so you can follow along. All right.

24 Now, sir, I'm reading from page 14, line 9 from the interview

25 taken on 26 June 2002. "Now, we will be evaluating your statement, and

Page 8324

1 we -- as we review you potential involvement in this case. So it's

2 absolutely important that you tell us the truth and we, I can tell you, we

3 have been investigating this case for over six years now. And many things

4 have been clearly established. One thing, both from documents and from

5 witness testimony, is that you were in command of a unit from Sekovici

6 special police and from the beginning of this the police involvement in

7 the operation through the last few days. I tell you this -- I tell you

8 this because my colleague is telling me that you are telling them a story

9 that you have just happened to be in places and that you were not command

10 during the critical times. We view that as an untruth, as a lie. And as

11 such, would be an obstruction of what we are trying to do here in getting

12 to the truth. So before we even get into the details of this event, you

13 are in more trouble than you need to be. You know that the army ran this

14 operation, and we know the army made the decisions to murder people, and

15 we know that MUP were under the command of the army and got sucked into

16 this thing, is what it appears to us. So it's only with reluctance that

17 we look at MUP commanders, and we are really -- are asking of the MUP is

18 to tell us the truth because the truth will get down to the people that

19 are most responsible, and that's who we are trying to get." And it goes

20 on and on. And for the sake of time, I won't read the next three pages.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: If I'm going to be on trial here, Your Honour, I

23 think at least the Court should have the full part of it. We don't need

24 to read it all, but it's a perfectly appropriate interview. As the

25 witness said, he had no complaints at the end of the interview. So I

Page 8325

1 would prefer that if this is going to be allowed, that you at least be

2 provided with the document so you can see how it was carried out.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: I could read the rest of it, too, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, there's no necessity because I believe that we

5 have the interview already and we could read it by yourselves.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. And I would --

7 JUDGE LIU: If you want, as an exception, you can offer to tender

8 that interview into the evidence, as an exception. As an exception.

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Right, I understand, Your Honour. I understand.

10 Just for the record, I would have read all the way through page

11 18.

12 Q. But now, sir, at some point after this statement made to you made

13 by Mr. McCloskey, were you not again advised of your rights?

14 A. No, I was not.

15 Q. Okay. Well, let me show you, if you could go on to the last page,

16 page 18, it says here, you're told "and you understand your rights also as

17 a suspect, and so you can stand on those rights at any time you wish."

18 This is what Mr. McCloskey tells you.

19 And I read from -- that would be on page 17 in the Srpski version

20 around line 17. And in the English, it is page 18, line 2.

21 So you're advised again that --

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. -- you have rights. Correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And then you're asked if you have any questions, and then the

Page 8326

1 interview continues. Correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, before we talk about the events that are critical to this

4 case, perhaps you could give us a little bit of background information.

5 Where were you born?

6 A. I was born in Sekovici, Municipality of Sekovici, on the 7th of

7 December 1963. And that is where I reside. That is where I live at

8 present.

9 Q. And where did you go to school?

10 A. I went to school, primary school, in Tisca, and secondary school

11 in Vlasenica. And I studied in Novi Sad. I went to university there.

12 Q. Before becoming a police officer in I think you said it was 1993,

13 what did you do?

14 A. I worked in the firm in bauxite, and also I was a private caterer

15 just before the outbreak of the war.

16 Q. Now, you indicated that currently you are still a police officer,

17 an inspector. Correct?

18 A. Yes. That's right.

19 Q. Have you been evaluated and certified recently by the IPTF, when

20 they were going through the evaluations and certifications of the entire

21 police force in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

22 A. Yes, yes. And they did give me a certificate.

23 Q. And aside from giving the statement to the Prosecution, have you

24 been questioned by anyone else regarding these events, any commissions?

25 A. Yes. I was questioned by a commission of the government of

Page 8327

1 Republika Srpska.

2 Q. Right. And how many times have you appeared before the

3 commission?

4 A. Four or five times.

5 Q. Okay. Now, I want to focus your attention to July 1995. All

6 right? Could you please tell us where you were working at that point in

7 time.

8 A. In early July, I was on annual leave. I had left my former duty

9 and was about to take up my new duty.

10 Q. All right. And what was your former duty?

11 A. As commander of the 2nd detachment of the Sekovici special police

12 brigade.

13 Q. Okay. Briefly, if you could describe to us what this detachment

14 was all about. Who did it belong to? Who was it supervised by? How it

15 came into existence?

16 A. It was led by the commander of the special police brigade, Goran

17 Saric. His deputy was Ljubisa Borovcanin. It consisted of six or seven

18 detachments, the special brigade that is, and the 2nd Sekovici Detachment

19 was one of these. Until the 15th of June 1995, I was the commander, and

20 then I went on annual leave waiting for the document appointing me to my

21 new duty --

22 Q. Okay, if I could stop you here because I want to take you step by

23 step. Before we get there, to you taking leave, could you please tell us

24 the size of this detachment?

25 A. It always had between 80 and a hundred men.

Page 8328

1 Q. And what sort of equipment was available to these men?

2 A. Mostly they had rifles. Most of them had flak jackets, not all.

3 Q. All right. Did they have any tanks, Pragas, any other hardware?

4 A. Yes, there was a support platoon which had a tank, a Praga, and 68

5 and 82-millimetre mortars.

6 Q. Was that part of the 2nd detachment, or was that part of another

7 unit?

8 A. It was part of the 2nd detachment, and it was actually the support

9 squad.

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. Platoon.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.

12 Q. How many platoons were there in the 2nd detachment?

13 A. It had three infantry platoons, a support platoon, and a rear

14 platoon, so it was five all together.

15 Q. And you were the commander of all five of these platoons?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were all five of these platoons located in Sekovici?

18 A. No. There was one from Skelani. That was the 3rd infantry

19 platoon, and that was stationed in Skelani.

20 Q. And could you please tell us how large was that platoon?

21 A. It numbered about 20 or 30 men, depending on how many were wounded

22 or sick and how the manpower levels were made up.

23 Q. Do you know who the commander of that platoon was?

24 A. Yes. Milenko Trifunovic, also known as "Cop".

25 Q. And Cop is his nickname?

Page 8329

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. Now, what kind of uniforms did the 2nd detachment wear?

3 A. Mostly a uniform consisting of two parts and overalls.

4 Q. What was the colour of the uniform?

5 A. Camouflage.

6 Q. That would be green camouflage?

7 A. Well, it was kind of light brown, coffee coloured.

8 Q. All right. Was there an insignia?

9 A. Yes. The special police brigade, those words were on our left

10 arm.

11 Q. But did it designate whether you were from -- that it was from

12 Sekovici?

13 A. Well, everybody knew if the number was 2000, then that was the

14 Sekovici platoon.

15 Q. So there was a way of distinguishing which units were from

16 Sekovici?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What about for the platoons? Was there anything on the insignia

19 that would give some indication as to what platoon the police officer was

20 from?

21 A. Yes, because there were numbers. Every policeman had a number.

22 Q. All right. Now, you indicated that you were the commander until

23 June 15, 1995.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. How do you remember that it was that day?

Page 8330

1 A. Because I had a meeting with the then minister of the interior

2 Tomo Kovac.

3 Q. What was the purpose of the meeting?

4 A. In early June, I received orders to move the unit to the Sarajevo

5 region from commander Goran Saric, the commander of the special police

6 brigade. At that time, I refused because on the 19th of May 1995, I had

7 applied to be discharged of my duty as platoon -- detachment commander.

8 Q. Why had you applied to be discharged of your duties?

9 A. Because I disagreed with the commander Goran Saric about the

10 distribution of equipment and materiel.

11 Q. And so I take it from your previous answer you didn't want to move

12 to Sarajevo to be near this individual that you disagreed with?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. All right. Now, sir, after your meeting with Kovac, was any --

15 was there a resolution?

16 A. Yes. It was agreed that Rade Cuturic who had been my deputy up to

17 then should take over the detachment. He was nicknamed Oficir, and that I

18 should go on annual leave. And after that, I would be transferred to the

19 administration for anti-terrorism.

20 Q. All right. Now, this gentleman who went by Oficir, had he been

21 the deputy before? Had he been your deputy?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. For how long?

24 A. For about a year.

25 Q. All right. Now, when you're not there to command and say you are

Page 8331

1 on leave, does he as deputy fill in as acting commander? Would deputy

2 commanders --

3 A. Yes. He had orders from the minister to command the detachment.

4 Q. All right. So it wasn't just merely his position, the fact that

5 he was the deputy; he also had specific orders. Is that your

6 understanding?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. All right. So on June 15th, after June 15th, what did you do?

9 A. I was on annual leave. And as my wife was pregnant, I went with

10 her to her family in Krusevac. The whole family was there together.

11 Q. All right. Where is Krusevac?

12 A. It's in Serbia.

13 Q. How far would you say from the Bratunac area?

14 A. I think about 250 kilometres.

15 Q. How did you get there?

16 A. By car. To Krusevac, you mean? By car.

17 Q. And whose car was it?

18 A. The car belonged to a company in Sekovici which often lent us that

19 vehicle.

20 Q. Okay. Does that company have a name?

21 A. Yes. Transport.

22 Q. That's the name of the company, Transport Company?

23 A. Yes, Transport Sekovici.

24 Q. All right. And it was their car and not a car from the detachment

25 that you used to go to Serbia. Correct?

Page 8332

1 A. Yes, correct.

2 Q. All right. Now, how long were you there?

3 A. I stayed there until the 13th of July.

4 Q. Well, did your wife give birth by then so you could leave?

5 A. No.

6 Q. All right. So why did you leave? I mean, if she was about to

7 give birth, and that's kind of a momentous occasion, at least I'm told,

8 why did you leave?

9 A. On the 15th of July, I was to meet the minister, Tomo Kovac, in

10 order to be issued with a document appointing me to my new position.

11 Q. And where were you to meet him?

12 A. I was supposed to call him on the phone first, and then meet him

13 either in Bijeljina at the ministry or in Pale where the ministry had a

14 branch office.

15 Q. All right. So on the 13th, you left Serbia. Where did you go to?

16 A. Cacak, Uzice, Ljubovija, Bratunac, Milici, Vlasenica, Sekovici.

17 Q. Now, why did you go to Bratunac?

18 A. That was the route I had to go in order to arrive in Sekovici.

19 Q. All right. Now, before leaving to go to Bratunac, had you heard

20 any news about Srebrenica?

21 A. Yes. On television in the evening of the 12th.

22 Q. All right. Now, when you went to Bratunac, did you stay -- did

23 you stop?

24 A. I arrived in Bratunac around noon.

25 Q. Okay.

Page 8333

1 A. And...

2 Q. Did you stop at Bratunac?

3 A. Yes, because I had a sister there, and I was planning to go and

4 have lunch at my sister's.

5 Q. All right. All right. So please tell us -- you told us that you

6 arrived in Bratunac at noon. So what happened when you arrived there?

7 What did you do?

8 A. In the very centre of Bratunac, I encountered Ljubisa Borovcanin.

9 Q. Where did you encounter him? You said in the centre. Was he

10 walking? Was he driving? Was he just standing?

11 A. He was walking, and I saw him and stopped my car.

12 Q. Incidentally, do you know where the police station is located in

13 Bratunac?

14 A. Yes. He was just leaving the police station and going toward the

15 centre, and I was just entering the centre.

16 Q. All right. So what happened when you saw Mr. Borovcanin?

17 A. I stopped, got out of the car, and greeted him.

18 Q. So I take it you knew him?

19 A. Yes. He had been my superior up to that point.

20 Q. All right. Could you please describe to us what exactly the two

21 of you talk about.

22 A. I asked him how he was, what was new, and he said that the

23 Srebrenica operation was underway, that the 2nd Sekovici Detachment had

24 arrived in Sarajevo the previous evening, that they were in the area, and

25 that they had just set out that the detachment was securing the

Page 8334

1 communication and that he was on his way to Zvornik.

2 Q. All right. The 2nd detachment had arrived from Sarajevo. Is that

3 what you're saying?

4 A. Yes, yes, from Sarajevo.

5 Q. Okay. And did he say that they were on their way to Zvornik or

6 that he was on his way to Zvornik? Which of the two? I'm not clear.

7 A. He said that the detachment was securing the Bratunac-Konjevic

8 Polje communication and that he had just set out to get them out of there

9 and to send them off to Zvornik.

10 Q. All right. Did he tell you -- did he tell you -- first, were you

11 aware prior to meeting with Mr. Borovcanin that the detachment that you

12 had been the commander of and that was now being commanded by Oficir was

13 in Bratunac or in the Srebrenica area?

14 A. No, no, I didn't know that.

15 Q. All right. Did Mr. Borovcanin tell you how he got to Bratunac?

16 Who ordered him?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did Mr. Borovcanin tell you whether he was under anyone's command,

19 that he had been subordinated to anyone?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did he say whether -- did he say who gave him the orders, if

22 anyone, to go now to where his men were and to send them on to Zvornik?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did he tell you who had ordered him to send his men in the first

25 place to go to secure the communication or the road over there where they

Page 8335

1 were situated?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you ask any of these questions?

4 A. No, I didn't.

5 Q. Is there a particular reason why you didn't ask, like, why are my

6 men over there, what's going on?

7 A. I didn't feel the need at the time to ask him that.

8 Q. All right. Incidentally, how were you dressed at the time?

9 A. I was wearing civilian clothes.

10 Q. Well, what kind of civilian clothes? Help us out here.

11 A. I had a track suit on.

12 Q. Were you wearing boots or tennis shoes or regular shoes?

13 A. I was wearing a track suit and tennis shoes.

14 Q. Were you armed?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you have a bandanna on or maybe a helmet so at least you would

17 look like you were in some sort of a military activity?

18 A. No.

19 Q. All right. How long of a conversation -- how long did this

20 conversation last with Mr. Borovcanin when you first encountered him in

21 the centre of Bratunac as he was walking out of the police station?

22 A. Five, maybe ten minutes.

23 Q. Okay. Did he -- where did you go after that?

24 A. I went to my sister's, to her home.

25 Q. All right. And where does she live? You said Bratunac, but where

Page 8336

1 exactly.

2 A. In Lamele in Bratunac.

3 Q. All right. And I understand you gave your sister's name to the

4 Prosecutor when you were being questioned. Incidentally, is your sister

5 still living in Bratunac?

6 A. Yes, yes. Her name is Mirjana Vukic, and her man is called

7 Milovan Lukic, and they still live in that flat, that apartment.

8 Q. And you told this to the Prosecutor, if they wanted to go and

9 check the story when you were there, how you were dressed, what you were

10 doing?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. So you go to see your sister. What happens? What do

13 you do?

14 A. I arrived at my sister's. She got lunch ready. I had lunch with

15 her.

16 Q. How long did you stay there?

17 A. Two or maybe three hours.

18 Q. Okay. And after that, I take it you left?

19 A. Yes. I set out towards Sekovici.

20 Q. Now, before setting out, did you change clothes or were you in the

21 same clothes?

22 A. The same clothes. I didn't change.

23 Q. All right. Now, for those of us who have never been to that area,

24 in order to get to Sekovici from Bratunac, where would you normally have

25 to travel through? What's the route?

Page 8337

1 A. Bratunac, Kravica, Konjevic Polje, Milici, Vlasenica, Tisca, my

2 village, and then Sekovici.

3 Q. Okay. All right. So tell us after you left your sister's home,

4 or her apartment, where did you go?

5 A. I set out towards Sekovici.

6 Q. And did you get there right away?

7 A. No. When I passed Kravica, I saw the members of the 2nd Sekovici

8 Detachment.

9 Q. All right. So tell me, what happened when you saw them?

10 A. I stopped my car and started chatting with them, asking them how

11 they had fared in Sarajevo, how they were. I asked them if they were

12 tired.

13 Q. All right. Now, we've heard testimony that there was ongoing

14 battle activity during that day. Did you notice any?

15 A. There was sporadic gunfire all along the road. As soon as I got

16 out of Bratunac, there was sporadic shooting.

17 Q. Weren't you concerned, given that you were dressed in this workout

18 uniform and had no weapon? Weren't you concerned when you stopped there?

19 A. No, I was used to it by then.

20 Q. Could you tell us, if you recall, with whom did you speak? Some

21 of the names.

22 A. I talked to all of them. I remember I talked to Cop and Oficir

23 and Rade Cuturic and so on.

24 Q. All right. How long would you say you were with the men at that

25 point in time?

Page 8338

1 A. I think I spent two or three hours with them.

2 Q. All right. And while you were there, before we talk about any

3 particular event, while you were there, did you notice anybody from the

4 1st company, the PJP of the Zvornik?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Okay. So please tell us what -- first of all, where exactly did

7 you stop? You said you went past Kravica. I take it you know where the

8 warehouse is, the agricultural warehouse. Right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Can you please tell us, and I take it you're travelling in the

11 direction of Konjevic Polje. Can you please tell us, how far did you

12 travel before you saw the men of the 2nd detachment?

13 A. About a kilometre.

14 Q. Okay. And were they all bunched together or were they spread out?

15 A. No, no, they were still securing the road. That means they were

16 spread out.

17 Q. All right. While you were there, did you notice whether they were

18 calling anybody, any of the Muslim men in the column that was going

19 towards Tuzla? Do you know whether any of those men that you had been

20 associated with were calling out for the Muslim men to come down and

21 surrender themselves?

22 A. I don't know. I didn't hear that.

23 Q. All right. Did you notice any men surrendering themselves, coming

24 out of the woods?

25 A. No, I didn't notice it there. But I did see a group up there on

Page 8339

1 the meadow, about -- well, between 50 and a hundred men.

2 Q. All right. And how far away or how close were you to where the

3 men were situated in the meadow?

4 A. 50 or a hundred metres away.

5 Q. All right. Now, as I understand the terrain, when you get to

6 Sandici, it's sort of a little hill. Are you -- have you gone over the

7 hill? Are you behind -- or are you just by the hill? Where exactly were

8 you situated?

9 A. I was on the edge of the hill facing Kravica. And there was some

10 water across from where I was, a spring of water.

11 Q. All right. Now, if we were to visit the area, we will see right

12 as you get to the hill on the left side there is a house that has been

13 pretty banged up. Do you recall that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. Are you right at the house, before you get to the house, or

16 past the house?

17 A. Before the house toward Kravica.

18 Q. Okay. So you haven't passed the house towards Konjevic Polje?

19 A. No.

20 Q. All right. Now, did you make any inquiry as to who those men were

21 and why they were there and who was securing them and so on and so forth?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Why not?

24 A. Well, we were talking about how it was up there by Sarajevo and we

25 talked about whether they were tired, how much they had to do, that kind

Page 8340

1 of thing.

2 Q. Did you notice whether any of these men were being abused in any

3 way?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you notice whether these men were being guarded?

6 A. No.

7 Q. You're not suggesting that they were not guarded.

8 A. That's not what I'm saying, no.

9 Q. Okay. What you're saying is that you didn't notice anybody

10 guarding them. Is that what you're saying? Just so we're clear.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.

12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Leading is really too much.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: It was for -- I'm told that there was a perhaps

15 something lost in the translation. That's why I had to, but very well.

16 Q. Now, do you know what happened to those men?

17 A. While I was there, some unknown soldiers arrived.

18 Q. All right.

19 A. And took the people away.

20 Q. Could you please tell us, where did they arrive from? From which

21 direction?

22 A. They arrived from the direction of Kravica.

23 Q. So that would have been from the direction of Bratunac?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. Did you notice how they arrived?

Page 8341

1 A. They arrived on foot.

2 Q. Could you please tell us approximately how many of them were

3 there?

4 A. Well, I would say roughly 10 to 20.

5 Q. And how were they dressed?

6 A. They were also wearing uniforms.

7 Q. But did you notice any particular insignia that would at least

8 give you some indication where they were from?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you speak with any of them?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Now, when you were there, on which side of the road were you

13 standing or sitting talking with your men? Was it the right side or the

14 left side of the road?

15 A. The left side of the road coming from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje.

16 That would be the left side of the road, from that direction.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, on which side of the road is the meadow?

18 A. On the right-hand side of the road, a little higher up.

19 Q. And on which side of the road were these men walking on, if you

20 recall?

21 A. No, I don't.

22 Q. All right. And you said earlier you did not recognise any of

23 them.

24 A. No, I didn't.

25 Q. Did you overhear any conversation that would at least give you

Page 8342

1 some sort of indication who might they be, who had sent them there, what

2 their tasks were?

3 A. No.

4 Q. All right. Incidentally, from where you're standing, is the road

5 flat or is there an elevation? Or are you on top of the elevation? Which

6 of the three?

7 A. Well, I was at a slight elevation.

8 Q. All right. Now, did you notice what these men did eventually?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you see where they went?

11 A. They went up towards Kravica.

12 Q. Okay. But wait a second. I thought you told me they were coming

13 from the Kravica direction. And I'm talking about the soldiers. I'm

14 sorry if I confused you. Where do these soldiers go to?

15 A. Well, the soldiers went towards the Muslims who had been taken

16 prisoner who were on the meadow.

17 Q. All right. And did you notice what, if anything, they did with

18 these prisoners?

19 A. They took them and lined them up in a column and took them off

20 towards Kravica.

21 Q. All right. Now, before this, had anyone come by, any higher

22 echelon officers that you recall?

23 A. Yes. General Mladic with his escort passed by.

24 Q. All right. And how far -- did he stop or did he just keep going?

25 A. He stopped and said something to them, talked to them.

Page 8343

1 Q. All right. Were you able to, from your distance, were you able to

2 hear what General Mladic was saying?

3 A. From that distance, I wasn't able to understand what he was

4 saying.

5 Q. Well, why didn't you get closer to hear him and perhaps even greet

6 him?

7 A. Because I was wearing civilian clothing, and the general didn't

8 like the police and the police in civilian clothing, he would probably

9 have given me grief on account of that.

10 Q. All right. How long was the general there with the men, speaking

11 to the Muslim men?

12 A. As long as it took to deliver that speech, to say what he had to

13 say to them.

14 Q. All right. And then in which direction did he leave or did he go

15 towards?

16 A. He went off in the direction of Konjevic Polje.

17 Q. All right. Now, eventually what happened to the men that were

18 sitting in that meadow?

19 A. Then the soldiers took them and lined them up into lines and took

20 them away towards Kravica.

21 Q. All right. When they were taking them away, did you by any chance

22 have any conversation with the soldiers then, or did they make any remarks

23 that you could hear?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you know at the time where they were taking the men?

Page 8344

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you notice whether these men had a komandir, commanding

3 officer?

4 A. No.

5 Q. All right. And did you keep an eye to see where these men would

6 eventually would go?

7 A. Well, they went in the direction of Kravica, that way, by the

8 road. They took the road.

9 Q. Now, at that point in time do you know with whom you were speaking

10 with, at that location where you were situated?

11 A. With Trifunovic and Oficir and someone else. I don't know what

12 his name was.

13 Q. And Trifunovic you indicated goes by the nickname of Cop. Is that

14 right?

15 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

16 Q. If I understand you correctly, he was the commander or the

17 komandir of the -- the battalion from Skelani. Is that correct?

18 A. No, no, he was the commandeer within the 3nd platoon within the

19 2nd detachment of Sekovici.

20 Q. Thank you for clarifying that. And Oficir was -- had taken over

21 your position as the komandir of the 2nd detachment?

22 A. Yes, that's right. He was the commander of the 2nd detachment of

23 Sekovici.

24 Q. Okay. So he was a commandant?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8345

1 Q. Okay. All right.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Now, Your Honour, we're about to get into the

3 section where I would rather not break it up because it's going to take a

4 little while to get through.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we may have a break right now. We'll resume at

6 20 minutes to 11.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 10.11 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 10.42 a.m.

9 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: I thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

11 Q. Mr. Stupar, we left off at the point in time when you saw the men

12 that was sitting in the meadow being taken away by some unknown soldiers

13 heading in the direction of Kravica. Now, could you please tell us what

14 happened sometime later.

15 A. Some 20 minutes later, a member of the platoon from Skelani came

16 up. His name was Krle, or rather we called him Krle. That was his

17 nickname. I think his name was Krsto whether his surname was Savic or

18 not, I'm not quite sure, but I think Krsto was his first name. He asked

19 the late Oficir, he said he had heard that there was a neighbour of his

20 among the group, and he had to ask his neighbour something and wanted to

21 find him for that purpose.

22 Q. All right. And continue.

23 A. And Oficir said that he wouldn't go alone, but that he would

24 accompany him. And after that, the two of them went off, and I stayed

25 behind.

Page 8346

1 Q. Let me ask you this: Before Oficir made that decision, did he

2 turn to you to get permission from you, since you had been the commander,

3 you were on leave at that point in time?

4 A. No, but I wasn't the commander at that time. He was in command of

5 the unit, so he didn't need to ask me.

6 Q. All right. So off they went. What did you do?

7 A. I stayed behind, and I went on talking. There was the commander

8 of the platoon from Skelani there, Cop.

9 Q. All right. And then what?

10 A. Some 20 minutes later or half an hour later, we heard intensive

11 shooting coming from the direction in which Oficir and Krle had just left.


13 Q. Was there any other shooting going on at the time that you

14 recall?

15 A. Well, there was sporadic shooting throughout the day.

16 Q. But from the location where you were situated, you are now

17 indicating you were able to hear -- some intensive shooting was coming

18 from the direction where Oficir and Krle had left. In what direction

19 would that be?

20 A. In the direction of Kravica.

21 Q. Incidentally, when they left, how did they leave? By what

22 means?

23 A. They went on foot.

24 Q. All right. Now, once you heard this intensive shooting, what did

25 you do, if anything?

Page 8347

1 A. I took up the radio station from Cop, and I contacted Oficir

2 straight away.

3 Q. Okay. What kind of communications were you using again?

4 A. We had a hand-held Motorola GP 300, a radio station of that type.

5 Q. Whose was it? Whose Motorola was it?

6 A. The one I took belonged to the komandir or commanding officer of

7 the 3rd platoon, Cop.

8 Q. How did you know to communicate with Oficir?

9 A. We had the call signs from earlier. He was Laser 62 or sometimes

10 Oficir, depending on the time. But we knew each other's voices. We could

11 recognise each other's voices so we didn't actually have to resort to the

12 call signs.

13 Q. All right. Just so I understand correctly, it was you who placed

14 the call or he called you, which of the two?

15 A. I think I placed the call. I called him and asked him what was

16 happening, whether it was going on somewhere nearby him, where he was.

17 Q. What was the response?

18 A. He said that Krle was dead and that he had -- he was wounded and

19 that he needed a vehicle to take him to hospital urgently.

20 Q. All right. And what did you do after hearing that information?

21 A. I had planned to go and see what had happened in my own car

22 straight away.

23 Q. All right. Now, before getting into your car and going off in

24 that direction, was there another call?

25 A. Yes. Ljubisa Borovcanin called because he heard me but he didn't

Page 8348

1 hear Oficir.

2 Q. Had you seen Mr. Borovcanin prior to this?

3 A. Yes, I had seen him prior to his going off in the direction of

4 Zvornik.

5 Q. Okay. So the last time we talked about Mr. Borovcanin, you had

6 seen him in Bratunac in the centre. So my question, just to be precise

7 for the record, from the time of the incident that you heard about in

8 Kravica and the time that you had seen him previous to that in Bratunac,

9 where had you seen Mr. Borovcanin?

10 A. I saw him there, in the part where I was.

11 Q. All right. Well, did he -- how is it that you saw him? Did he

12 stop? Was he walking? Was he driving by? Was he being driven?

13 A. He was standing there. He was walking around before he left for

14 Zvornik.

15 Q. Okay. Do you know how he had gotten there?

16 A. I think by car.

17 Q. All right. Did you notice whether -- did you notice his car or a

18 car that might have been driving him?

19 A. I think he drove a grey car. I don't remember what make.

20 Q. Do you know whether he was there with any military officers?

21 A. No.

22 Q. All right. Now, did you speak with Mr. Borovcanin when you saw

23 him there?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Not even a "hello"?

Page 8349

1 A. Well, yes, we would say hello to each other, and then he continued

2 to issue some orders to Oficir, which I didn't hear, I think.

3 Q. Okay. Well, when he was giving -- issuing these orders to Oficir,

4 how close were you to Oficir?

5 A. 10 to 15 metres apart.

6 Q. All right. And after Mr. Borovcanin left, did you at any time ask

7 Oficir "what did Borovcanin tell you, what orders did he issue"? Did you

8 make any inquiries?

9 A. When Oficir returned, came back to us, came up to me and Cop, he

10 said that Borovcanin would let him know when he would move the unit to

11 Zvornik.

12 Q. All right. Now, if you recall, if you could tell us, from the

13 time that you saw Borovcanin to the time that you heard this intensive

14 shooting, how much time had elapsed?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. All right. In any event, getting back to our story, where we had

17 left off before, it was after you had your conversation with Cop that you

18 recall having a conversation -- I'm sorry, after you had your conversation

19 with Oficir, you had your conversation -- you had a conversation with

20 Mr. Borovcanin. Correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. How was he able to communicate with you if he had left?

23 A. Well, as soon as I had finished talking to Oficir, he called

24 because he hadn't heard Oficir but he had heard me. So he was in some

25 sort of -- well, Oficir's Motorola didn't have the range to reach him

Page 8350

1 where he was.

2 Q. All right. Just so we're clear, because some of us are not very

3 familiar with this equipment, if you could just tell us a little bit

4 because I don't want to be leading you, how Mr. Borovcanin could know that

5 you had this conversation with Oficir or know that there was a problem?

6 How is it?

7 A. He probably heard my conversation, and then asked me whether

8 everything was all right.

9 Q. How could he hear your conversation? That's what I'm trying to

10 get at. Help us out here.

11 A. He just heard me on the same channel. He was working on the same

12 channel. The Motorola and him was on the channel, and he could hear me

13 but he couldn't hear Oficir.

14 Q. If he had a Motorola and that Motorola was on and on the same

15 channel, he would be able to listen in and hear the conversation, or at

16 least part of the conversation?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that would depend on the range and the terrain, of course?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. Could you please explain to us what exactly you told

21 Mr. Borovcanin at that time.

22 A. I told him that something was wrong with Oficir. That's all.

23 Q. All right. And then what? What did you do after that?

24 A. I got into my car and drove off towards Oficir.

25 Q. All right. How long did it take you to get there?

Page 8351

1 A. Well, I drove as fast as I could, and the distance is about 1 to 1

2 and a half kilometres, thereabouts.

3 Q. All right. And -- now before setting off, did you know exactly

4 where to find -- where Oficir was located?

5 A. No.

6 Q. All right. So you're driving. How do you know where to stop?

7 A. Well, he said he would be waiting for me on the road, and I just

8 drove.

9 Q. All right. And did you find him on the road?

10 A. Yes, I did. He was standing on the road.

11 Q. Okay. Could you please tell us where exactly he was standing.

12 A. He was standing by a warehouse at the entrance to Kravica on the

13 right-hand side. He was on the road by the warehouse. 10 to 15 metres

14 away was the warehouse.

15 Q. All right. Now, had you been to that warehouse before?

16 A. No.

17 Q. When you saw him standing there, what did you do?

18 A. I stopped, opened the door for him because you couldn't open the

19 door from the outside --

20 Q. So you had to get out physically or did you just reach over?

21 A. No, no, I just reached over and opened the door.

22 Q. Okay. And then what?

23 A. He got into the car and I drove off towards Bratunac.

24 Q. All right. Now, he had told you over the Motorola that he had

25 been injured. Were you able to see what injuries he had sustained, if

Page 8352

1 any?

2 A. His right hand was singed. I don't know whether it was the left

3 or the right, but I couldn't see the extent of the injury and how serious

4 it was.

5 Q. When you stopped the car to let Oficir in, could you please

6 describe to us what, if anything, you saw and heard that was happening by

7 the warehouse?

8 A. I saw the soldiers who had taken those people off. They were

9 standing around and you could hear sporadic fire. It wasn't intensive

10 fire, but just sporadic fire.

11 Q. Now, you said it wasn't intensive fire, it was sporadic. Earlier

12 you told us you heard some intensive firing?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So you're making a distinction now from the first to the one that

15 you heard?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. Did you notice, could you see where you had stopped the car to let

18 Oficir in, could you see what the soldiers were firing on?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you have any idea as to what they were firing on?

21 A. No.

22 Q. All right. Did you see any bodies of men laying on the ground

23 from where you were situated, from the road?

24 A. No.

25 Q. How far from where you parked your car or stopped your car to let

Page 8353

1 Oficir in, how far is it to the entrance of the warehouse?

2 A. 20, 30 metres, thereabouts.

3 Q. Now, is it flat or is there some sort of elevation, if you

4 recall?

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. All right. Now, you said that you let Oficir in your car and then

7 you drove off. In what condition other than you told us that he was

8 holding one of his hands, you don't know which one, that it was singed.

9 Other than that, in what condition was Oficir?

10 A. He was very pale. His face was contorted, and he complained of

11 great pain. He was moaning and complaining.

12 Q. All right. Now, from there, where did you go?

13 A. I didn't understand your question.

14 Q. Okay. Once he got into the car, where did you go with him?

15 A. I didn't get out of the car at all. I simply continued on toward

16 Bratunac and then went to the health centre.

17 Q. All right, okay. Now, how long did it take you to get to the

18 health centre?

19 A. I don't know. I was driving as fast as I could, as fast as the

20 situation allowed.

21 Q. All right. How long would you say you had actually stopped to let

22 Oficir in, into the car? If you could tell us in seconds or minutes.

23 A. Only for as long as it took for me to open the door and for him to

24 get in.

25 Q. All right. Now, on the way to the health centre, you've indicated

Page 8354

1 that he's in pain and that he's moaning. Did you ask him what had

2 happened?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you please tell us what it was that you learned from Oficir

5 as you were driving him as fast as you could to the health centre to get

6 some medical attention for one of his hands that had been singed?

7 A. He told me that when they arrived there, Krle entered the

8 warehouse. He went about a metre or two inside with weapons, and that

9 then they caught him, that they grabbed his rifle from him, that they shot

10 him with his own rifle. And when he went to help Krle, they pointed the

11 rifle at him. He grabbed the barrel and moved the barrel away from

12 himself. And they shot for as long as there were bullets in the round.

13 Q. All right. Now, what kind of a rifle are we talking about?

14 A. It was a Kalashnikov, an automatic rifle.

15 Q. All right. Did he tell you approximately how many rounds were set

16 off, if he told you?

17 A. No, he didn't say.

18 Q. All right. And how would his hand get singed from just grabbing

19 the barrel? Can you tell us that?

20 A. Well, he grabbed the top of the barrel with his hand while they

21 were firing.

22 Q. And that would -- so, from the heat, the barrel would --

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. All right. Now, did he tell you after he was able to -- after the

25 automatic rifle was out of bullets, out of rounds, what happened?

Page 8355

1 A. He then went outside. He ran outside, that is, and they ran after

2 him, and that is when the shooting started.

3 Q. Did he tell you how far he had gone into the warehouse?

4 A. He was at the entrance, perhaps a metre in, something like that.

5 Q. All right. Could you please tell us who it was then after he was

6 running out that began firing?

7 A. Those who were standing around, providing security.

8 Q. Was Oficir able to tell you or did he tell you, I should say,

9 whether any of his own police officers from the Sekovici detachment, 2nd

10 detachment, whether they were there along with him and Krle when Krle went

11 into the warehouse?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Incidentally, when you stopped to pick up Oficir, did you notice

14 any other members of the 2nd detachment there?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did you recognise any of the soldiers or anyone else there,

17 anyone?

18 A. No.

19 Q. All right. Is there anything else that -- well, let me ask you

20 this: After he told you all of this, did you ask any other questions of

21 Oficir, like why were they shooting at all of these people? That's a

22 question that would come to mind, for instance.

23 A. I didn't ask him at all.

24 Q. Did Oficir ever tell you how many men, Muslim men, were in the

25 warehouse at the time this incident occurred?

Page 8356

1 A. No.

2 Q. All right. Now, from there, you took him to the health centre.

3 Where is that located, sir?

4 A. In Bratunac.

5 Q. Did you know how to find it, or did you have to stop and ask for

6 directions?

7 A. I knew where the health centre was.

8 Q. All right. Now, incidentally, did you ask Oficir where was Krle,

9 where was the body of Krle, what had happened to it?

10 A. He said that it had stayed behind there.

11 Q. All right. Now, I take it -- let me ask you this: When you got

12 to the health centre, did you stay there or did you just drop off Oficir

13 and leave?

14 A. Oficir went into the surgery, and I waited for him outside in the

15 corridor.

16 Q. Do you recall how long you waited?

17 A. I don't know exactly. But while I was waiting for him like that,

18 Ljubisa Borovcanin arrived.

19 Q. All right. Now, before we go into -- let me ask this: Do you

20 know whether -- do you know whatever happened to Krle's body? Did you

21 ever see it?

22 A. Yes. I saw it.

23 Q. And when was that?

24 A. On the 14th at the funeral.

25 Q. Okay. And now we're talking about the 13th. Right? This is

Page 8357

1 still the 13th?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I'm going to show you some documents, what has been previously

4 admitted as P464A and I think there's one B as well. Perhaps just a --

5 there is a B as well. If you could look at that, and if you see

6 anywhere --

7 MR. KARNAVAS: If we could perhaps take the English version and

8 put it on the ELMO for the gentleman.

9 Q. Okay. Now, do you see the name of Oficir there anywhere?

10 A. Yes, I do. Rade Cuturic, father's name Milan.

11 Q. That would be the second name from the top?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you recognise what this is incidentally, this piece of paper

14 that I've shown you? Would you know what it might be, at least from

15 reading it?

16 A. Well, this looks like some sort of protocol.

17 Q. Okay. And if we look at the -- at that particular name in the

18 first column going from left to right, it says the hour of 1740. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. I think that's about the time when I brought Oficir to the

21 hospital.

22 Q. Okay. Now -- and then if we go all the way to the other side, to

23 the right side, can you read what it says, the notation. Are you able to

24 read it?

25 A. I can only distinguish the word "burns."

Page 8358

1 Q. Okay. All right.

2 Now, what about Krle, the individual that was nicknamed Krle, do

3 you see his name there anywhere?

4 A. Krsto Dragicevic, so his last name was Dragicevic, then.

5 Q. Does it say what time for him?

6 A. It says here 1900.

7 Q. Okay. If we go all the way, if we go towards the, again, the

8 right, it says "deceased," does it not?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So that's the individual that we're talking about when we're

11 saying Krle?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. Incidentally, the first name, we see there's a Miroslav

14 Stanojevic. Did you know this individual?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. And it says there under the first column, date of

17 wounding, 13 July, 1730. So that would have been about 10 minutes before

18 Oficir. Did you notice whether anyone else was wounded when you came by

19 the Kravica warehouse?

20 A. No. No.

21 Q. Incidentally, Kravica, there's nothing -- there's nothing on --

22 where it says "place of wounding," it says "Kravica." There's nothing

23 here that designates whether it was Kravica the village, the area, or

24 Kravica warehouse, agricultural warehouse, does it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8359

1 Q. All right. And I take it, as you stand here today, over the years

2 you haven't heard of Mr. Stanojevic and perhaps how he got injured in

3 Kravica?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay. Thank you.

6 Now, when Mr. Borovcanin came to the health centre, what was the

7 nature of the conversation?

8 A. He asked me what had happened, and I told him what Oficir had told

9 me.

10 Q. And what was his reaction?

11 A. While I was telling him, when I finished talking, Oficir came out

12 from the surgery.

13 Q. All right. Now you say surgery. Was he having surgery, or was it

14 the OR, the operating room, the emergency room?

15 A. I think they just cleaned and dressed his wound. While I was

16 there and talking to Borovcanin, he had been inside the doctor's office

17 for about an hour.

18 Q. All right. And -- okay. Now, you were saying that you had this

19 conversation with Borovcanin, and you told him what Oficir had told you.

20 What was -- did Mr. Borovcanin say anything to you?

21 A. When Oficir came out, he explained to him how the incident had

22 occurred.

23 Q. All right. And then what?

24 A. After that, we talked about Krle, about his corpse and what had

25 happened to it.

Page 8360

1 Q. All right. And?

2 A. And that somebody should go to Skelani to prepare the funeral and

3 inform the family.

4 Q. All right. And who was designated to do that?

5 A. I was designated to go to Skelani to prepare the funeral and

6 inform the family. And Borovcanin would go and see where his body was and

7 what had happened to it because we still didn't know that, and have it got

8 ready in Bratunac and transported to Skelani.

9 Q. All right. I have a couple of questions. First of all, when you

10 had that conversation with Mr. Borovcanin over the Motorola which was

11 immediately after Oficir had told you that Krle had been killed and that

12 he was injured, did you explain to Mr. Borovcanin where this incident had

13 occurred, if you recall?

14 A. I didn't know where the incident had occurred, so how could I

15 explain that to Borovcanin?

16 Q. Do you know then when you met Mr. Borovcanin at the health centre

17 whether Mr. Borovcanin knew by the time he met you, that is, at the health

18 centre, whether he knew that this incident had occurred at the Kravica

19 warehouse?

20 A. I don't know.

21 Q. Do you know from your conversation with Mr. Borovcanin whether

22 Mr. Borovcanin had stopped by the Kravica warehouse on his way to Bratunac

23 as he was coming now from the opposite direction, he was turning around --

24 he was heading towards Zvornik, now he was turning around. Do you know

25 whether he had stopped at the Kravica warehouse to find out what had

Page 8361

1 happened before meeting you?

2 A. I don't remember him saying anything about that.

3 Q. All right. But you do recall that part of the conversation was

4 what had happened to Krle, where the corpse was?

5 A. Yes. In that conversation, I told him what had happened. Then

6 Oficir came out and joined in the conversation. And after that, we

7 discussed what had happened to Krle's body and where it was. Then

8 Borovcanin said that he would take care of that and that I was to go to

9 Skelani to inform Krle's family and see about organising the funeral.

10 Q. All right. Now, I want to also clarify another point. You're on

11 leave. You were in Serbia with your wife who is about to give birth,

12 coming back two days early -- earlier, having already made arrangements to

13 speak with Mr. Kovac on July 15th when this incident occurs. So if you're

14 on leave, why would Mr. Borovcanin give you an order to go to Skelani now

15 to take care of these arrangements?

16 A. It wasn't an order. It was an agreement. It was the humane thing

17 to do, to express my condolences to the family and help organise the

18 funeral.

19 Q. Now, was this some sort of a unique procedure or was this the

20 normal way of doing things, that is, when someone got killed in the line

21 of duty from your particular unit, that somebody from the unit would go to

22 inform the family and hopefully that person would be an officer?

23 A. That was the usual practice. When someone was killed in the line

24 of duty, one went to see the family, express condolences, help organise

25 the funeral, and do everything that was necessary.

Page 8362

1 Q. All right. Now, earlier, if I may recap your route to go to

2 Sekovici, you would go from Bratunac through Kravica, through Konjevic

3 Polje, then onwards past Milici, Vlasenica, and so forth. Correct?

4 A. On what day?

5 Q. I mean, that would be the normal route.

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Now, for those of us who haven't been to Skelani, how would you go

8 from Bratunac? Would you take that same route, or would there be a

9 different route that you need to take?

10 A. No. Skelani is in a completely different direction. I had to go

11 through Serbian territory via Ljubovija and Bajna Basta to go to Skelani.

12 Q. All right. What did you do after you made this agreement with

13 Mr. Borovcanin?

14 A. I got in my car and went to Skelani.

15 Q. All right. Could you tell us approximately how long it would have

16 taken you to get from Bratunac to Skelani?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Could you tell us the distance.

19 A. I think it's some 60 or 70 kilometres, maybe a hundred. I don't

20 know.

21 Q. All right. Now, could you tell us about when did you get to

22 Skelani?

23 A. I think it was just beginning to get dark.

24 Q. Okay. And what did you do once you got there?

25 A. There was a house there in which the Skelani detachment was

Page 8363

1 quartered.

2 Q. All right. Well, just go on. Tell us.

3 A. I announced myself. There was a duty officer by the telephone.

4 Q. And?

5 A. I explained to him what had happened. And then I went with him to

6 Krle's family.

7 Q. Okay. Now, what happened -- where did you stay that night?

8 A. I stayed in Skelani.

9 Q. What happened the next day?

10 A. On the next day in the morning, the funeral was organised, and the

11 funeral was that very afternoon. And I attended it.

12 Q. And do you know whether the body of the late Krle came, had

13 arrived by then?

14 A. Yes, yes, it arrived during the night.

15 Q. All right. Now, when -- how long did you stay in Skelani?

16 A. I stayed there until the late afternoon of the 14th.

17 Q. And where did you go from there?

18 A. Bajna Basta, Ljubovija, Bratunac, and then home.

19 Q. Okay, so you had to go back that route, you had to go back towards

20 Bratunac, and then would you go Konjevic Polje, Milici, Vlasenica?

21 A. Yes, yes. That's that route.

22 Q. Okay. Now, would that be on the 14th or is that on the 15th when

23 you head back?

24 A. 14th in the evening.

25 Q. Would you please tell us what was happening, what did you notice

Page 8364

1 on the roads? What kind of traffic did you encounter?

2 A. At that time, it was difficult to pass through. There were

3 people, soldiers, police.

4 Q. Where were they located?

5 A. I can't tell you exactly. They were all over the place. The

6 units weren't deployed in any special way.

7 Q. All right. Did you notice whether the 2nd detachment was located

8 where you had left them the previous day in the afternoon?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay. Now, maybe -- I just want to make sure that I'm clear.

11 Were they there, or you didn't notice them there? Which of the two?

12 A. They weren't there. On the 13th during the night, Cop arrived

13 with his platoon to attend the funeral. And he told me that the

14 detachment gravitating towards Sekovici had gone to the base in Sekovici

15 while the Skelani detachment had gone to their base in Skelani.

16 Q. All right. And when Cop arrived, you say he arrived in Skelani.

17 Right?

18 A. Yes, yes.

19 Q. And that's where the platoon is from, in fact?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And I take it the late Krle was from that platoon?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. Now, I didn't ask you this question, so I'm going to ask it

24 now a little bit out of order. But getting back to the 13th, when you

25 were there for that period of time, meeting and talking with your mates

Page 8365

1 from the 2nd detachment, what kind of traffic did you notice on the roads?

2 A. A lot of vehicles were passing by, buses, vehicles.

3 Q. Did you notice who was in these vehicles?

4 A. They were full, and I think it was mainly with women and children.

5 Q. All right. Did you make any inquiries, who were these people,

6 where they were going, what was going on?

7 A. I didn't ask around. I knew they were Muslims from Srebrenica.

8 Q. All right.

9 A. I heard that.

10 Q. All right. Now, what about military hardware? Did you see any

11 particular military hardware on the road while you were there?

12 A. I don't remember. I think I wasn't.

13 Q. Did you see any tanks, any Pragas, any other vehicles?

14 A. When I arrived, there was a tank there, and later it left.

15 Q. Do you know who was driving that tank?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Do you know what unit it was from?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And just one last question before we move back into where we left

20 off, do you know Momir Nikolic, also goes by the nickname of"Penzijica,"

21 "little pensioner" or "little pension"?

22 A. After the war, I had a coffee with him in Bratunac. But otherwise

23 not.

24 Q. All right. Did you by any chance notice him over there while you

25 were -- from where you were situated?

Page 8366

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. Okay. All right. Now, getting back to where we had left off,

3 it's late -- the 14th of July, you've left Skelani, and you're going all

4 the way to Sekovici. Could you please tell us about what time you arrived

5 there.

6 A. It was already late into the night. I arrived home and went to

7 bed straight away.

8 Q. Did you stop anywhere from the time that you left Skelani, did you

9 stop at any particular location, Bratunac, to visit the sister that you

10 had lunch with the day before or two days earlier or anyone else?

11 A. No, no, I didn't stop.

12 Q. Now, moving to the next day, July 15, could you please tell us

13 what you did that day.

14 A. I was at home sleeping. When I got up, I went to the command of

15 the detachment in Sekovici.

16 Q. And?

17 A. And I was to hear Tomo Kovac, to talk to Tomo Kovac there. But

18 when I arrived, they told me to report to the Zvornik centre where Ljubisa

19 Borovcanin was waiting for me. And he phoned up from Zvornik.

20 Q. All right. Who told you, if you recall, who told you that

21 Borovcanin was waiting for you at the Zvornik centre?

22 A. I don't remember who the duty officer was, but the duty signalsman

23 told me.

24 Q. All right. Now, if my recollection is correct, it's some distance

25 between Sekovici and Zvornik. It's a bit of a drive.

Page 8367

1 A. Well, it's about 50 kilometres.

2 Q. Okay. For me, it's a bit of a drive. Did you call up before you

3 went over there to speak with Mr. Borovcanin?

4 A. No. No, I didn't.

5 Q. The message that you were to go there, did it give you any

6 indication of the nature of what was waiting for you once you got to

7 Zvornik?

8 A. No. He just said, he just left a message that as soon as I

9 arrived, if I arrived there, if I came there, and if I didn't come there,

10 that they were to find me and tell me he was waiting for me at the Zvornik

11 centre.

12 Q. All right. Incidentally, officially, at this particular period of

13 time, because you told us that on June 15, you were taking your leave and

14 your command had been taken over by Oficir. So officially, what was your

15 position with the detachment?

16 A. Well, officially means judging by the papers, so I was still

17 commander of the detachment. But all the commanding and everything else

18 was done by Oficir, whereas I was on leave. And I was to be deployed to

19 another post and I was supposed to receive the papers. But as you know,

20 the paperwork was always a little late in our parts.

21 Q. But in your -- if I may go back to what you had told us a little

22 earlier, as far as you recollect, Oficir had gotten specific written

23 orders placing him as the commander during that period when you were

24 absent, or might -- did I get that wrong?

25 A. No, no. He received an oral order from the minister, Tomo Kovac,

Page 8368

1 on the 15th of June at Pale.

2 Q. All right. Now, we'll get back to this issue. But let's carry on

3 with what's going on at this period of time. On the 15th of July, you get

4 that message to go to the Zvornik centre. What do you do?

5 A. I took a driver and went off. I passed by my house, and I got

6 dressed there, and I would pass by my house anyway. That's the way the

7 route goes. And then we set off for Zvornik.

8 Q. How were you dressed?

9 A. I don't know exactly whether I was still wearing my track suit or

10 whether I put something else on. I really don't remember. But I do know

11 that I put my overalls on at home.

12 Q. All right. Did you have a weapon with you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So you go to Zvornik. And what happens when you get there? Where

15 do you go?

16 A. We took the road to Vlasenica, Milici, Zvornik. And we arrived at

17 the centre in Zvornik. And in the office of the chief of the centre,

18 Dragomir Vasic and Ljubisa Borovcanin was waiting for me, and the deputy

19 of the centre, chief Mane Djuric was also there I believe. Perhaps there

20 was somebody else, but I really can't say.

21 Q. All right. Did you notice anything on the road during the drive

22 from Sekovici to Zvornik, any traffic that caught your eye on that

23 particular morning?

24 A. No.

25 Q. All right. Now, just so we're clear, is there some sort of a

Page 8369

1 relationship between your detachment, your position as the -- you know, in

2 the -- your detachment I should say and Mr. Vasic, who is the head of the

3 centre there in Zvornik?

4 A. No. We had two different chains of command.

5 Q. All right. So you had nothing to do with Mr. Vasic?

6 A. No.

7 Q. All right. Now, when you got there, could you please tell us what

8 was the nature of this meeting? What transpired?

9 A. Well, it wasn't an official meeting of any kind. Ljubisa told me

10 that I was in command of the unit again, that they had heard that -- or

11 perhaps that he had seen the minister on the 14th and this was conveyed by

12 the minister. And they discussed a situation that was rather specific for

13 Zvornik; that is to say, there was a group of Muslims, well-armed Muslims

14 there, and they had already broken one of the defence lines up at Kula

15 Grad. And if they were turned towards Zvornik, the question was whether

16 they would take control of Zvornik, so there was a lot of discussion about

17 that.

18 Q. All right. Did Mr. Borovcanin show you any documentation

19 verifying his conversation with Mr. Kovac, putting -- placing you back as

20 the commander of the 2nd detachment?

21 A. No. He just said he had talked to him and that the man had said

22 because of Oficir's wounding, that I would be in command of the detachment

23 until the end of the operation.

24 Q. Okay. Now, after that, what did you do? After this little

25 gathering where you had this conversation?

Page 8370

1 A. After that, we went to the headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade, to

2 Standard.

3 Q. All right. Do you recall about what time it was?

4 A. It might have been about 11.00.

5 Q. All right. Had you been to Standard before?

6 A. No.

7 Q. So this was your first -- the first opportunity you had to go to

8 the Zvornik Brigade headquarters?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Now, do you recall where in the Standard building or Standard

11 building you went to?

12 A. When I entered the building, I went up the stairs, and I think to

13 the right there was a large operations room or something like that. The

14 door was to the right, or at least I think that's how it was.

15 Q. Now, did you go alone or were there others with you?

16 A. There was me, there was Ljubisa Borovcanin. There was Dragomir

17 Vasic, and I think Danilo Zoljic as well.

18 Q. Were you all walking up the stairs together or did you come

19 separately, or what?

20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. Leading.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll rephrase, Your Honour. I'll rephrase.

23 Q. Did -- were the others with you when you went up the stairs?

24 A. Yes, yes. All four of us came together and went up the stairs

25 together.

Page 8371

1 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned an operations room, and then you said

2 that there was another room. Which of the two rooms did you go into?

3 A. I didn't say there was another room. I thought it was the

4 operations room. So once we had gone up the stairs, it was the first door

5 to the right. I think it was the operations room. Anyway, it was a large

6 room we went into.

7 Q. Okay. So you went into that room. But if I understand you

8 correctly, you're not certain whether that was, indeed, the operation

9 room?

10 A. I wasn't sure, no.

11 Q. Incidentally, did you know back then Mr. Dragan Jokic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you recall whether you saw him as you were walking up the

14 stairs?

15 A. No.

16 Q. I take it you didn't check the building to see whether he was in

17 the building at that particular time?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Okay. Now, when you got to that room, could you please tell us

20 what happened.

21 A. When we went inside, in there was Obrenovic, Mr. Obrenovic.

22 Q. Anyone else?

23 A. No, just Obrenovic.

24 Q. Did you know Mr. Obrenovic at that point in time?

25 A. No, that was the first time I met him.

Page 8372

1 Q. All right. Did you know of him, of his position, his rank?

2 A. I had heard about him previously, but I didn't know about his

3 position or rank.

4 Q. All right. Could you please describe to us what happened during

5 that meeting.

6 A. Well, for the most part, he said that there was a large armed

7 group there. He said there were ten to fifteen thousand of them. 6.000

8 of them were well armed, over 6.000 well armed Muslims were in the

9 region. And it was in the region from Zvornik to Baljkovica, but he

10 didn't know exactly where within that radius, and they were discussing

11 what should be done. They were afraid that they would turn toward

12 Zvornik, and if they did so, they could take control of Zvornik.

13 Q. All right. And what was the response to Mr. Obrenovic's remarks?

14 A. Well, mostly everybody shared that opinion. When I say

15 "everybody," I mean Vasic and Borovcanin. They held the same opinion

16 about the situation. And they tried to find a way out, a solution to the

17 situation. And one of the solutions was that a line should be opened and

18 let them through from Baljkovica to get to the Muslim territory, and the

19 other solution was to make double lines in the area; that is to say, not

20 to allow them to exit.

21 Q. And again, for clarification purposes, what was Mr. Obrenovic's

22 estimation as to how many armed Muslim men he was facing?

23 A. About 6.000, I think. That's what he said at the time.

24 Q. All right.

25 A. Well armed.

Page 8373

1 Q. Well armed. Now, when he was describing this, how did he appear?

2 A. Well, he appeared sort of disturbed.

3 Q. Okay. I didn't want to lead you. That's why I didn't feed you

4 the potential answer.

5 So what was the -- after that, after that exchange, what happened?

6 What was finally determined?

7 A. They were all in favour of opening the line and letting them come

8 out because of their assessment of the forces, their forces, our forces,

9 the ratio until Obrenovic talked to someone over the phone.

10 Q. And then what happened?

11 A. After that, he said that the commander, Pandurevic, would be

12 arriving soon, that he was already somewhere thereabouts, and that he had

13 an explanation for everything.

14 Q. And did Pandurevic ever show up?

15 A. Yes, he came very quickly. And --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat "and what."

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Could you repeat.

18 Q. Let me ask you the next question. Had you known Mr. Pandurevic?

19 A. Yes, I had known him.

20 Q. So you knew him personally, or you knew of him?

21 A. I knew him when there was some celebrations and ceremonies, things

22 of that kind. He would always be there. That's how I knew him.

23 Q. All right. Now, when he showed up, what exactly happened then?

24 A. When Obrenovic presented the situation to him and he said that we

25 were in favour of having the lines opened, that solution.

Page 8374

1 Q. What did Mr. Pandurevic say to that? What was his reaction to

2 that?

3 A. Well, he reacted by saying that he had clear-cut orders, and

4 anybody who didn't wish to listen to him could leave this area. That was

5 his area of responsibility. And I say that double lines had to be set up

6 and they were not to be allowed to leave. He said something to that

7 effect.

8 Q. And so then what was decided?

9 A. Well, we weren't asked any more. Pandurevic set out the plan on

10 the map where each unit was to be positioned, and these double lines to be

11 set up.

12 Q. And where was this -- where were the lines set up? Was that in

13 the Zvornik town or was it in the terrain? Could you give us an

14 indication.

15 A. We were told to go to the region of Baljkovica, I think, that

16 general area, and that we were to take up our positions at a slope there.

17 Q. All right. Were you given particular coordinates on the map to

18 position yourselves?

19 A. No. We were just told to report to the battalion command there.

20 I don't know what the battalion's name was.

21 Q. All right. Were you told by Mr. Pandurevic as to who was going to

22 be giving you orders?

23 A. No.

24 Q. All right. Did Mr. Pandurevic ever give you specific orders at

25 that time?

Page 8375

1 A. Well, he said where the first company that was there with us, that

2 they should take up positions where they said, in which part, and that we

3 should report there they battalion headquarters, and that they would show

4 us the exact location.

5 Q. When Mr. Pandurevic was going on in noting where the various units

6 would be situated, was Mr. Borovcanin there?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And at that point in time, would it be fair to say that

9 Mr. Borovcanin was your commander?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know what arrangements Mr. Borovcanin, if any, had made

12 with Mr. Pandurevic at the time?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did Mr. Borovcanin tell you who, if anyone, had sent him to

15 Zvornik to have this meeting with Vasic and Obrenovic?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did Mr. Borovcanin ever say that he and his units, including

18 yours, had been resubordinated to Pandurevic and that henceforward you

19 would be taking your orders from Mr. Pandurevic?

20 A. Well, he didn't say that. But we received that from Pandurevic

21 directly. So Pandurevic said "I'm the commander here. This is my area of

22 responsibility. Anybody who wants to listen can listen and follow orders.

23 If not, I'll inform the command." That's how it was.

24 Q. All right. In your case, which command would he have been

25 informing if Mr. Borovcanin was there and he was your commander?

Page 8376

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. All right. Did you protest with Mr. Borovcanin that, you know,

3 here was Pandurevic --

4 A. No.

5 Q. Okay. Now, do you recall at that point in time where the 2nd

6 detachment was located? Had they mustered and were they there waiting for

7 instructions?

8 A. Well, he was informed that he should come to Sekovici -- from

9 Sekovici. Sorry.

10 Q. All right. Now, what happened after this, after this meeting?

11 What did you do?

12 A. We went back to the centre, waited for the detachment to arrive

13 and for the first company to muster.

14 Q. The first company. Now, which one are we talking about?

15 A. The first company of the Zvornik centre.

16 Q. And that's commanded by whom?

17 A. The commanding officer of the 1st company was Raso Pantic.

18 Q. Okay. Now -- and what happened after that?

19 A. After that, so the units were assembling there, had lunch, and

20 this was already into the afternoon, the late afternoon hours, and then we

21 moved off into the direction of Baljkovica, that general area.

22 Q. Did you go with the 1st company? Did you go together there?

23 A. Yes, yes, that's right.

24 Q. Was the 1st company subordinated to the 2nd detachment?

25 A. No.

Page 8377

1 Q. But if I understand you correctly, there are two different lines

2 of command.

3 A. Yes, I've already said that.

4 Q. All right. Now was there anyone there from the Zvornik Brigade

5 that would be commanding, giving orders, instructions, maybe even

6 coordinating the situation there so at least you knew who would be in

7 charge?

8 A. When we arrived in the area, Baljkovica, we went down into a

9 valley and there was a house there where the battalion's headquarters was.


11 Q. All right. And then what?

12 A. And we found Obrenovic there. And I think the detachment

13 commander was also there, or rather the battalion commander. I can't

14 remember his name. And there was Legenda, Jolvic, in that house.

15 Q. And Legenda is the commander of the wolves, the Drina Wolves. Is

16 that correct?

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

19 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's leading as is -- as are most of these.

20 These are questions or they're testimony of the lawyer.


22 Q. Who is Legenda, this well-known figure that we have heard about

23 for the last eight months in this trial?

24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. What this Trial Chamber

25 is heard is not relevant and should not be stated to the witness like

Page 8378

1 that.



4 Q. Who is Legenda?

5 A. Well, he led the Drina Wolves, that detachment, within the

6 composition of the Zvornik Brigade.

7 Q. Was he a well-known figure?

8 A. Well, we knew each other from the terrain.

9 Q. And what does his nickname, Legenda, mean?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. All right. Now, what happened when you got there?

12 A. We got up there.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat what he just

14 said.


16 Q. We didn't catch all of your answer. So if you could repeat it,

17 and please speak slowly so we can get the translation.

18 A. This is how it was: We went down to see where the unit was to

19 assume its positions. And the unit stayed up at the top, on top of the

20 hill. It didn't go down to the command and headquarters.

21 Q. All right. And then what?

22 A. While we were talking there, I sent the driver off, the radio

23 Motorola was -- the battery was empty. I sent the driver off to have the

24 batteries recharged.

25 Q. Okay. And then?

Page 8379

1 A. And after some time had gone by, we heard some shooting up there

2 where the detachment and the 1st company had remained. And the driver was

3 supposed to come back.

4 Q. Did he ever come back?

5 A. Yes. He ran back shouting "I'm yours, I'm yours." And the

6 Muslims were running after him and shooting and crying out "Allahu Akbar."

7 Q. Okay. And then what? What happened after that?

8 A. After that, so that was towards evening, a battle started. The

9 fighting started. It lasted half an hour to an hour.

10 Q. All right. Was that the only battle that occurred while you were

11 there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. So at no other point in time was there any firing, any

14 fighting?

15 A. As I said, no. That was when the fighting started until it got

16 dark.

17 Q. Okay. Were there any casualties?

18 A. Not at that time, no.

19 Q. Okay. All right. At what time were there casualties, then?

20 A. This was still the 15th. On the 16th, early in the morning, just

21 as dawn was breaking, the fighting resumed. And then we realised that we

22 were surrounded in the battalion command. There were about 40 of us

23 altogether. We were trying to defend ourselves, and the detachment and

24 1st company which had remained outside the encirclement were trying to

25 unblock us. The fighting went on until about 3.00 or 4.00 p.m., and I

Page 8380

1 think we had three or four men killed and about 15 wounded. I don't know

2 about the other units that were helping us, how many losses they had, what

3 their losses were.

4 Q. Had you seen such fighting prior to this occasion?

5 A. Believe me, I have been on quite a few war theatres, but I've

6 never seen anything like this.

7 Q. Now, you talked about your casualties. Do you know how many

8 Muslim casualties there were, if there were any?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Would you please describe to us the strength of these armed

11 soldiers, Muslim soldiers, so we can get an idea of, you know, what kind

12 of a fighting force their strength is at this point in time, on July 16,

13 some four or five days after they have left Srebrenica?

14 A. It was a large group, as can be seen from the fact that when we

15 broke through on the 16th at 3.00 p.m., we came out up there and

16 Pandurevic ordered that the line be opened for them to leave. As they

17 were leaving, the whole valley was full of them. They took a jeep over,

18 carrying it in their hands.

19 Q. All right.

20 A. There were so many of them.

21 Q. Now, had in your opinion, having been there, having lived through

22 that experience, and based on your experience, had the line not been open

23 when it was, could you give us an indication what in your opinion would

24 have happened in light of the circumstances?

25 A. I think there would have been far more losses on both sides.

Page 8381

1 Q. All right. Do you think that eventually you would have been able

2 to overcome that force or vice versa?

3 A. I don't know.

4 Q. All right. Now, after the lines were open, what did you do?

5 A. We stayed there for another two or three days securing those

6 lines, making sure that they didn't come back from the federation or that

7 they didn't infiltrate any sabotage units.

8 Q. Now you say from the federation. Are we talking about there's

9 another line as well separating the two sides?

10 A. No. We're talking about the territory controlled by the Muslim

11 army.

12 Q. And do you know which army, which division was situated there by

13 any chance?

14 A. Whose?

15 Q. Which division, which Muslim --

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. All right. Now during this incident or this period of time when

18 you were situated there, what was Mr. Borovcanin doing?

19 A. I don't know. He wasn't there with me. I was in the encirclement

20 down there.

21 Q. All right. What was the means of communication between you and,

22 say, Obrenovic or the other members of the Zvornik Brigade?

23 A. We had communications with the centre.

24 Q. When you say centre, are we talking about the Zvornik centre which

25 is the MUP centre that's Vasic's office?

Page 8382

1 A. Not Vasic's office. We reported to the centre, and then the

2 centre put us through if we needed to talk to Borovcanin.

3 Q. Okay. But which centre are we talking about? Is it the MUP

4 centre?

5 A. The Zvornik centre, yes. MUP.

6 Q. Okay. So while you're at the field, if you need to talk to

7 Obrenovic, you have to call the MUP centre, and then pass a message on to

8 them to contact Obrenovic, and then -- is that how it worked?

9 A. No, no. What happened, for example, was that they also had their

10 own lines. And if the battalion commander was there, we could talk

11 through their line.

12 Q. All right. Well, you would have to use their Motorola?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But I just want to make sure, because I'm not clear on this, with

15 your Motorola, assuming that they were not there, were you able to

16 directly communicate with members of the Zvornik Brigade like Obrenovic?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Now, during this battle activity that you talked about, were you

19 taking orders from Obrenovic?

20 A. Obrenovic was there with me, and he was asking for assistance from

21 the military units using his own communications line. And I talked to my

22 detachment, which had remained outside the encirclement and was trying to

23 help us.

24 Q. All right. Well, I'm trying to get a clear answer. I'm not sure

25 I understand it. Are you both working side by side or is one over the

Page 8383

1 other? Which of the two, to your understanding?

2 A. What was important to us was to get out of the encirclement. I

3 couldn't explain it. I don't know.

4 Q. All right. Well, before leaving that meeting that you had where

5 Pandurevic came in and gave his little speech about who is with me, fine,

6 who else, I'll report them, did Pandurevic at that point in time instruct

7 you or perhaps your commander, Commander Borovcanin that henceforward

8 while in the field you, the commander of the 2nd detachment, would be

9 taking orders from Mr. Obrenovic?

10 A. No.

11 MR. KARNAVAS: All right. I don't know how much time we have

12 left. I've kind of lost track.

13 JUDGE LIU: We still have an hour, more than an hour.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I mean for the break, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE LIU: We already passed that time.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: I wasn't aware of that. We can take the break,

17 Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: May I ask you how long you will go in direct

19 examination.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: I just have some housekeeping matters, cleaning

21 matters just to kind of tie up some loose ends here and there. So I would

22 say no more than 10, 15 minutes at the most.

23 JUDGE LIU: I think it's high time for us to take a break, and we

24 will resume at a quarter to 1.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.11 p.m.

Page 8384

1 --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.

2 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, your loose ends.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Mr. President.

4 Q. Mr. Stupar, you are aware, are you not, sir, that Mr. Borovcanin

5 gave statements to the Prosecutor?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And are you aware that Mr. Borovcanin indicated to the Prosecutor

8 at the time that he gave his statement or statements, I should say, back

9 in February and March of 2002 that you been the commander of the 2nd

10 detachment throughout that period, you know, from the time the 2nd

11 detachment left from Sarajevo, which would have been around the 10th or

12 11th of July and onwards? Are you aware of that?

13 A. I didn't know that.

14 Q. Okay. Well, now that you know that, is Mr. Borovcanin correct?

15 A. No, he's not correct, and I don't know why he's telling this

16 falsehood.

17 Q. Mr. Borovcanin also indicated to the Prosecutor at the time that

18 you had conveyed to Mr. Borovcanin that you had seen a gentleman by the

19 name of Lukic --

20 A. Which Lukic?

21 Q. I believe that he was referring to the gentleman who is from

22 Visegrad.

23 A. No.

24 Q. Did you ever say that to Mr. Borovcanin?

25 A. No.

Page 8385

1 Q. Do you know anybody who is rather famous or infamous from Visegrad

2 that goes by Lukic?

3 A. No.

4 Q. All right. Have you heard of anybody that goes by Lukic?

5 A. I have heard of someone like that. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. Now, I'm trying to be precise with my questions. Okay.

7 And which Lukic are we talking about? Do you know?

8 A. I think we're talking about or that you are asking me about this

9 man who has been accused of war crimes. And he's from Visegrad.

10 Q. Okay. At that time, at that time, and we're talking about July

11 1995, did you know, personally, that is, Mr. Lukic?

12 A. No.

13 Q. All right. Did you see him? Did you see him at that time when

14 you were in Sandici?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And just to make sure that we're clear, at that time, did you know

17 what he looked like? In other words, you could place a face to a name so

18 when you saw him, you could say, Ah, that's Lukic?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Now, by the way, what about Mr. Blagojevic? Did you know him at

21 that time?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Have you ever met Mr. Blagojevic?

24 A. I don't think so, no.

25 Q. Did his name ever come up in your conversations with

Page 8386

1 Mr. Borovcanin or Oficir or Cop or anyone else that you came in contact

2 with when you were in Bratunac on July 13th?

3 A. No.

4 Q. What about thereafter, say, when you were in the Zvornik area,

5 when you were engaged in those combat activities? Did Blagojevic -- the

6 name Blagojevic, Colonel Blagojevic from the Bratunac Brigade ever come up

7 on any occasion?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Now, we started by discussing the -- your statement to the

10 Prosecutor. And I'm looking at this statement. And again, after you --

11 Mr. McCloskey had cautioned you initially, he cautioned you again. And he

12 states, and I'm reading from the transcript, page 15, "what I need you" -

13 and this is from line 20 - "what I need you to do before you get into the

14 details is acknowledge the fundamental issue here is that you were in

15 charge and commanding these troops, not overall command. We know that

16 Borovcanin, Mr. Vasic, Mr. Tomas Duskojevic and the other commanders, and

17 you are clearly one of those. In that, there is nothing criminal about

18 that. We all know that the commander has certain responsibilities. That

19 doesn't make you guilty in any sense. And others have been able to admit

20 they were commanders. And so what I need you to be able to do is admit to

21 me, that you, the truth about who was commanding the unit."

22 Do you recall hearing those statements from Mr. McCloskey at the

23 time you had begun giving the statement to them back on June 26th --

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Okay. And at some point, you reiterated again, and perhaps again,

Page 8387

1 that at no time were you the commander of the 2nd detachment on June -- on

2 July 13th, 1995. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, as you stand here today, having taken this oath, being a

5 police officer, an inspector nonetheless, knowing that that oath carries

6 certain responsibilities and consequences, and knowing that you are still

7 a suspect, are you still maintaining that during that period of time you

8 were not the commander of the 2nd detachment when you were there seeing

9 those troops on the 13th of July 1995?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. Now, lastly, I want to show you a document that has

12 come into this courtroom that has been identified as Exhibit P159. I will

13 show you the Srpski version.

14 Now, sir, have you ever seen this document before?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. Now, were you shown this document last night by me and

17 my colleagues?

18 A. Yes, last night your colleague showed it to me.

19 Q. Okay. And before we showed it to you, did the Prosecution when

20 they met with you back on 26 June 2002, did they show you this document?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did they show you any documents that reflected what had been told

23 to them by Mr. Borovcanin; that is, that you were in full command on July

24 13, 1995?

25 A. No.

Page 8388

1 Q. All right. Did they by any chance, if you recall, now that you

2 have read the revised or cleaned-up version of your statement, do you

3 recall whether they pointed out any specific areas in Mr. Borovcanin's

4 statement of 20th February 2002 or 11 March 2002, read them to you, and

5 perhaps give you the opportunity, having been confronted with statements

6 by Borovcanin, to at least give -- your opportunity to give them

7 explanations?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. This is all argument.

10 There's no question there. He's arguing how evil the Prosecution is.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: I am not arguing how evil --

13 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, put your question in the simplest way.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm trying, Your Honour. That's about as laconic

15 as I can be at the moment, but I'll try.

16 Q. Did they ever show you concretely what Mr. Borovcanin had said and

17 give you the opportunity to respond concretely?

18 A. No.

19 Q. All right. Now, if you could look at this back page, the last

20 page, we have a signature there. You indicated to us that Mr. Borovcanin

21 was your commander. Do you recognise that signature?

22 A. I didn't look at his signatures, but I think it is, yes.

23 Q. All right. Now, we have a -- over here under 20 July 1995, we

24 have this -- that's the last set of paragraphs, three paragraphs.

25 Correct? Do you see above the last three paragraphs, it says "20 July

Page 8389

1 1995..."?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Okay. Now, just for clarification purposes, which of those three

4 paragraphs to your understanding reflect the activities of 20 July 1995?

5 All three? The first two? Or just the first?

6 A. Only the first.

7 Q. Okay. So based on your reading of the original version and your

8 understanding of the language and having read this document, could you

9 please tell us - it won't be leading, Your Honour - if you can please tell

10 us if the first paragraph reflects only as to July 20th, what do the other

11 two paragraphs reflect?

12 A. The first part does reflect what they did on the 20th of July

13 1995. The second paragraph is a continuation of the report from the field

14 that preceded this paragraph, who commanded which units, that they had

15 good cooperation, correct cooperation, who commanded which units. Then he

16 states that the 2nd police detachment was led by Milos Stupar and Rade

17 Cuturic, the 4th detachment was led by Mijo Dragicevic, the 5th by

18 Palezica [phoen]. The forces of the special unit were commanded by Danilo

19 Zoljic and sometimes Savo Sritinovic [phoen], the commander of the MUP

20 special police unit. So the last two paragraphs refer to the entire

21 terrain in question.

22 Q. Okay. All right. Thank you. I just wanted to be fair to

23 everyone and make sure that we understand, and correct me if I'm wrong,

24 the last two paragraphs would appear to be sort of a conclusion of this

25 entire document and not reflect the activities solely of 20 July 1995?

Page 8390

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. All right. So now that we've established that, so it's not

3 taken out of context, I want you to look at that last paragraph because

4 it's a little troubling here. It says here, and I think you read part of

5 it, or perhaps all of it, "the 2nd special police detachment was led by

6 Milos Stupar and Rade Cuturic" and it goes on.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, Rade Cuturic is Oficir. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. And frankly, we need to refer to him as "the late Oficir," don't

11 we, because he has passed away, hasn't he?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. So he is unable to come here to at least give us an explanation in

14 the event the Defence wanted to bring him here.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. Now, could you please tell us or give us an

17 explanation, how is it that Borovcanin, Mr. Borovcanin, has indicated here

18 on this piece of paper, which is P159 in the very last paragraph that you

19 and - and - Oficir, Rade Cuturic, were leading the 2nd special police

20 detachment? And I should note for the record that this is -- this report

21 seems to reflect dates starting from, at least on the third page, it

22 starts with 12 July, although it reflects that the unit came earlier.

23 A. Probably because Rade Cuturic commanded the detachment until the

24 14th, and I took over on the 15th, that's why he put us there because as

25 you see, the 4th detachment, he just put down mirror drag Mijo Dragicevic,

Page 8391

1 for the 5th, he put down only Palezica. And in the case of the 2nd

2 detachment, he wrote down the names of the two of us. If I was detachment

3 commander, why would he state the name of my deputy?

4 Q. And what you pointed out was there were no designations of the

5 deputies of these other individuals?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Mr. Stupar, I want to thank you very much for

8 coming here. I have no further questions at this time. Mr. Stojanovic

9 may have some questions, who represents Mr. Jokic. The Prosecutor may

10 have some questions, as well as the Judges. I would appreciate it if you

11 would be as frank and forthcoming with them as you have been with me.

12 Thank you very much.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.

14 Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions to this witness?

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honour. Good day,

16 Mr. Stupar. We will try to go through a few characteristic questions that

17 touch on our Defence.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Stupar, as I understood during the

20 examination-in-chief, in the morning of the 15th, after you had received

21 information in the command of the 2nd detachment that you were to report

22 to the Zvornik security centre, you set out in the direction of Nova

23 Kasaba, Konjevic Polje, and arrived in Zvornik. Is this correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would it be correct to say that from Sekovici, there is another

Page 8392

1 asphalt road leading to Zvornik which goes via Paprace, Zapardi, Crni Vrh,

2 Orahovac, and reaches Zvornik?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do we agree that this road would be a little bit shorter than the

5 route you took to Sekovici?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Would I be right in saying that the reason you didn't take the

8 road via Paprace, Zapardi, Crni Vrh, and Orahovac is the lack of security

9 and safety on this communication because of the arrival of the column of

10 the 28th Division?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you have information about this when you were setting out to

13 Zvornik, that this communication was not safe for this reason?

14 A. Yes. The Sekovici police station warned everyone not to use that

15 road because it was closed for traffic.

16 Q. And what did they say about the reason why was it was closed for

17 traffic?

18 A. I think that a medical corps came by and that all its members had

19 been killed and that since then that road was closed and was no longer

20 used for traffic.

21 Q. Yes. We have the duty roster of the Zvornik Brigade where this

22 fact is stated. I assume that you are familiar with this terrain. So

23 would you say I was right in saying that the area of Srpska Snagovo was

24 practically cut off from the headquarters in Zvornik?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8393

1 Q. Thank you. I will now go back to the 15th. At around 11.00, you

2 say you arrived together with Vasic, Borovcanin, and most probably Danilo

3 Zoljic to the command of the Zvornik Brigade. Is this correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you found Obrenovic in the operations room you mentioned,

6 which is upstairs?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Can you recall whether Obrenovic said anything to you at the time

9 as to where and when he had come from that morning?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Does your answer "no" mean that he didn't tell you or that you

12 don't remember him saying anything about that?

13 A. I don't think he spoke about that. I don't actually remember.

14 Q. Did you happen to notice whether there were any other soldiers or

15 officers there from the Zvornik Brigade up there on the first floor and in

16 the office you were in?

17 A. The room we were in, there weren't any. I don't remember having

18 come across anybody.

19 Q. At one point in time during the examination-in-chief, you said you

20 knew Dragan Jokic.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you tell us how you came to know him, where you know him

23 from, where does it date back to.

24 A. I know him because he worked on some roads in the Sekovici area.

25 Q. When was that? When did Dragan Jokic build roads in the Sekovici

Page 8394

1 area?

2 A. He worked there after the war, and I think prior to the war as

3 well, that he would come into Sekovici, and I saw him there.

4 Q. Did you have close contacts with him, or was it a superficial

5 acquaintance?

6 A. Well, I don't know if he knew me. I knew him. I knew who he was

7 and what he did.

8 Q. And you're quite certain that on that morning of the 15th when you

9 went with Vasic and Borovcanin and possibly Danilo Zoljic that you didn't

10 see him there at the headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade?

11 A. Yes, I'm certain of that.

12 Q. Mr. Stupar, we had testimony here by Mr. Obrenovic, and he spoke

13 about how he went in together with Mr. Vasic to the command of the Zvornik

14 Brigade, and that he happened to meet Major Jokic on that occasion. Now,

15 in view of what you have said here today and the way in which you

16 described entering the headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade and where you

17 came across Obrenovic, would I be right in saying that what he was

18 actually saying does not reflect the actual situation on the morning of

19 the 15th?

20 A. Yes, that's right.

21 Q. Thank you. Now, I'll try and clarify one more point for

22 Their Honours, for the Trial Chamber, and to get to know the general area

23 in which all this was going on. During the examination-in-chief, you say

24 on the afternoon of the 15th, you received an order, and you went to

25 Baljkovica, the area around Baljkovica. Is that right?

Page 8395

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And then you said you received your deployment to take up your

3 positions on a slope?

4 A. We were supposed to take up our positions there, but we never

5 reached that position. I didn't introduce my unit there because I went to

6 the battalion command to see where that location was. But I never

7 actually took up that position on that slope.

8 Q. Can we then say that it was the Motovska Kosa, that slope, and it

9 was in the Paloc area?

10 A. I think that's right, but looking at the house where the command

11 was located on the right-hand side, we came from the left -- to the left

12 of the house, and that slope was supposed on the right, to the right of

13 the house.

14 Q. When you say "right-hand side," for us to be able to orientate

15 ourselves, are you looking at the BH army positions?

16 A. No, my back was turned towards their positions. Looking at it

17 that way, with my back turned towards the BH army positions.

18 Q. And just one more question, please, that I'd like to clear up. At

19 one point in time you said that there was such a strong -- that there were

20 so many of them and they were so strong that they could pick up a jeep in

21 their hands. Could you tell us what type of jeep that was, whose vehicle

22 it was, and what actually happened.

23 A. Well, I don't know whether it belonged to the Zvornik Brigade or

24 whoever. But I saw them carrying the jeep. I think it had been seized.

25 And I just saw them taking it away. I don't know who it belonged to.

Page 8396

1 Q. So at one point in time, that jeep was to all intents and purposes

2 in the hands of the BH army. Is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And just one more question in this area, this acquaintance of

5 yours if I can put it that way with Dragan Jokic, what was your impression

6 of him? What kind of man was he? Did he ever in your presence show any

7 signs of nationalistic -- extreme nationalistic feeling or national

8 intolerance, ethnic intolerance, that kind of thing?

9 A. In the Sekovici region, where he was building the roads, and I sat

10 with him one day, and I would not be able to conclude that that's the kind

11 of man he was from the talk I had with him.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Stupar, for being

13 so frank and forthright. I have no more questions at this point,

14 Your Honours.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

16 Any cross-examination, Mr. McCloskey?

17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. McCloskey:

19 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Stupar.

20 A. Good afternoon.

21 Q. How long have you been a criminal investigator?

22 A. Since the year 2000.

23 Q. And before that, did you do any regular police work, criminal

24 investigations?

25 A. No.

Page 8397

1 Q. So for the three or four years that you have been a criminal

2 investigator, have you been involved in criminal investigations of murder

3 cases, for example?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Have you been to many crime scenes, many violent crime scenes?

6 A. I was present, but usually they are inspectors for murders that

7 undertake that kind of investigation.

8 Q. And in Bosnia, is the police job pretty much a 24-hour job whether

9 you're on duty or not?

10 A. Well, so far that's what it has been like. Now the laws are

11 changing, but no changes actually yet on the ground.

12 Q. If you're off-duty and you see a robbery in front of you, do you

13 have a duty to do something about it?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So as a Bosnian policeman, if you saw people being assaulted or

16 abused, would you have a duty to stop that or do something about it as

17 best you could?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In your experience, do sometimes police officers, as human beings

20 like the rest of us, do they sometimes abuse subjects, people they had

21 arrested, physically?

22 A. I really don't know.

23 Q. Ever heard of such a case in Bosnia?

24 A. Well, I have heard tales about that kind of thing, but not based

25 on my own experience.

Page 8398

1 Q. Now, I want to ask you about this issue of command. Were you on

2 annual leave and still the commander on annual leave? Or were you not the

3 commander any more?

4 A. Let me point this out to you: According to the agreement when we

5 talked to the minister of the day, Tomislav Kovac, the agreement reached

6 was that I should leave that duty and that the detachment should straight

7 away, immediately, the very next day, the 16th, that the detachment be

8 taken over by the late Oficir, to take them to the Sarajevo area to be in

9 command of it, that I should go on annual leave. And once I returned from

10 annual leave, that I should pick up my papers appointing me to the

11 administration for anti-terrorist investigation. So we had already

12 decided what position I would be taking up and what my duties there would

13 be. But on paper, I was still the commander.

14 Q. Would you have had the authority to act as a commander still

15 even -- for example, if you had come in on your leave, like many people do

16 here? Would you have been -- would you have carried with you the

17 authority of command if you'd come in on annual leave and, you know, done

18 some official work? Or had you been officially relieved of your

19 authority?

20 A. I'm not sure what you mean, what authorisation, what authority?

21 Q. Well, as a commander of the unit, you had certain authority,

22 didn't you?

23 A. Well, I had the authority to command the unit.

24 Q. Yes. And when you're on annual leave, you retain that command

25 authority even though you're on vacation or on annual leave, don't you?

Page 8399

1 A. Well, it was like this: An agreement had been reached with the

2 minister, Tomislav Kovac, and that agreement was that I was no longer in

3 command of that detachment but that the person in command was the late

4 Oficir. And when I come back from annual leave, that I should go on

5 annual leave, and when I come back from annual leave, that is to say on

6 the 15th of July, that we should see each other and I should pick up my

7 appointment papers.

8 Q. Okay. So in June, you made an agreement that you were no longer

9 in command. Is that what you just said?

10 A. Yes, that's what I had asked for already back on the 19th of May

11 of that same year.

12 Q. And that's what happened. In June, you were no longer a

13 commander.

14 A. That's right. On the ground, no, I wasn't.

15 Q. So you had no real authority to do anything?

16 A. Well, I'm not sure what you mean. To do what? You say "to do

17 anything." To do what?

18 Q. Anything as a commander.

19 A. Well, yes.

20 Q. Okay. And after you made this agreement with the superior, did

21 you come into the office again or the command place before 15 July when I

22 think you told us you went in?

23 A. The command place, you mean. You mean the command place for the

24 detachment? No, I did not.

25 Q. In fact, you left soon after that agreement and went to Serbia.

Page 8400

1 Right?

2 A. Well, towards the end of June. The end of June.

3 Q. Did you do any work as a commander when you -- after this

4 agreement that you'd made, any paperwork, take home anything, do any work

5 like that?

6 A. Well, I never did any paperwork when I was the commander. We had

7 administrative services to see to the paperwork.

8 Q. So you didn't do -- your answer is you didn't do any paperwork

9 after you made that agreement not to be commander anymore?

10 A. Well, the administration saw to the paperwork. The administrative

11 services.

12 Q. When you came in on the 15th to the command, did you ever -- did

13 you become commander at that point, before you went to Zvornik, or were

14 you still a guy that had been no longer commander and on annual leave?

15 A. I don't remember exactly. But I think there was some paper that I

16 signed. I think it was a report of some kind.

17 Q. As commander?

18 A. Not as commander. I signed it because I think it was a

19 three-monthly report about the work of the detachment. And as I was

20 commander during a certain period of time, I signed it.

21 Q. Well, you just told us you didn't do any paperwork, that the

22 paperwork was done by administrators. So are you now telling us that you

23 did do some paperwork?

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may assist Mr. McCloskey.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

Page 8401

1 MR. KARNAVAS: He said do paperwork. That was the question.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, if he wants to coach the witness, I

3 think we can do it outside the --

4 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, at this point I see no problem at all.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: I see a big problem.

6 JUDGE LIU: Let's continue the proceedings.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: I object to this misleading -- he said he didn't do

8 paperwork. If we could have a clarification, doing -- physically doing,

9 because we're talking about a cultural divide here, versus signing

10 paperwork. If he could clarify it, I don't have a problem. But there's a

11 big difference between who physically does it.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I'm sure the cultural divides can be

13 worked out on redirect, but this is just pure obstruction.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may proceed.


16 Q. So you had told us that you hadn't done any paperwork initially.

17 Everyone heard that. And now on the 15th, you're telling us you may have

18 signed some documents, such as some sort of annual report.

19 A. It's like this: The administration had prepared the report

20 beforehand. Now, as at that time, the late Oficir was in Sarajevo with

21 his unit. It should have been sent out much earlier. And I was on annual

22 leave. I wasn't there. So Oficir couldn't have signed it. And then this

23 report, which referred to the 4th, 5th, and 6th, or rather April, May, and

24 June, those months, and when it came, they said it had to be sent out, so

25 I signed it so that it could be sent out. So that was purely based on

Page 8402

1 what had gone beforehand, what had happened before.

2 Q. So you testified in this courtroom that you had no authority as

3 commander after your deal in June. Now you're telling us that you signed

4 an official report as commander on 15 July. Is that right, sir?

5 A. It's like this: I signed, but everything that was stated in the

6 report -- I always had to send out monthly reports for April, May. I

7 don't know whether a report was sent out for June. These were regular

8 reports. So I signed the previous reports. So it was a conglomeration of

9 the reports I had sent out previously, my monthly reports set out in a

10 three-monthly report.

11 Q. But you signed it as commander on 15 July. Is that what you're

12 telling us?

13 A. Well, I signed it. Now, whether I signed it as the commander, I

14 really don't know.

15 Q. Well, if you did sign it as a commander on 15 July, or any time in

16 July, that would have been wrong, according to your testimony, and you

17 wouldn't have done that, would you?

18 A. No. I'm telling you I signed the report, the report on the work

19 of the detachment for April, May, and June.

20 Q. So on 15 July at least, you were authorised as commander to sign

21 reports?

22 A. Well, it was just a report which I had sent out to the brigade

23 individually, these reports. And then the report was to have been sent

24 out on the 5th. And as the late Oficir was in the field all the time, he

25 didn't sign it or send it. So when I turned up, I just signed it so that

Page 8403

1 they could dispatch the report off as soon as possible. I didn't think it

2 was any important bit of business, that I wasn't violating anything of

3 that kind. Because it was all sent out, the contents of that report were

4 the contents of the monthly reports that had been sent out previously.

5 Q. Was this a police report done in time of war?

6 A. Well, it was a report about the work of the detachment. I don't

7 know whether it was a police one.

8 Q. The detachment report in time of war. It's a pretty darn

9 important report, isn't it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And command is a pretty darn important position, isn't it?

12 A. I'm saying again that the report had already been sent out

13 individually for every month. So this was the sum total of the three

14 monthly reports that had already been sent out.

15 Q. And command is a very important position, isn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. There are grave responsibilities a commander has in the

18 detachment. Isn't that true?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, the -- your detachment had a Praga. Is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That's a -- what looks like an anti-aircraft weapon mounted on the

23 back of a special flatbed truck?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And your attachment had what's called a BOV?

Page 8404

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. That's a similar vehicle to a Praga but instead, it's one big

3 armoured unit with similar sorts of weapons. Is that correct?

4 A. A BOV, yes.

5 Q. And you had a tank as well, I take it, a T-55?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you ever -- did that tank and its crew, were they ever on

8 standby in Bratunac in June of 1995?

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may object here, I don't think

10 there's anything in the indictment charging Mr. Blagojevic with June 1995.

11 So I just want to point that out for the record because I'm being told we

12 should focus on the indictment itself. So the critical period is after,

13 so if there's something now I have to defend in June 1995, I surely would

14 like to know what it is.

15 JUDGE LIU: I believe this question goes to the credibility of the

16 witness.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Let's hear what the witness is going to tell us.


20 Q. Can you answer the question.

21 A. Could you repeat the question, please.

22 Q. Did you have a tank and/or its crew on standby in Bratunac in June

23 of 1995?

24 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of it.

25 Q. You're not aware of it.

Page 8405

1 A. Right.

2 Q. How about the Praga? Was it ever -- in 1995 ever on standby or in

3 ready in Bratunac, in 1995?

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. You don't remember where your platoon of heavy equipment was

6 located?

7 A. No.

8 Q. All right. I've got an exhibit that has been marked as P853.

9 Defence has had this for several years.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, at this point in time, I just want to

11 point out that when they were cross-examining, we were being given exhibit

12 lists at the beginning of the day. It appears now we're not only getting

13 them not before the day, but we're getting them in the middle of

14 cross-examination. And I want to point out on the record the very severe

15 language of the Appeals Chamber with respect to the Krstic trial. Because

16 Mr. McCloskey was a member of that trial team when there was some

17 significant hiding of the evidence for the Defence. So I do take

18 exception to this. We have the evidence. We don't have equality of arms.

19 We've got millions of documents. At least we should have the courtesy of

20 having an exhibit list and may I note I requested an exhibit list prior or

21 during the break, and I was told we would be -- that they needed to

22 consult with Mr. McCloskey. There was a consultation, but we received

23 nothing. And so I do take exception to these cat and mouse techniques.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, the allegations continue fast and furious in

Page 8406

1 front of witnesses. Your Honour, Mr. Karnavas was provided a collection

2 of special police documents in October of 2002. They were searchable, and

3 they were provided to him and his Defence team. And if he would put his

4 witnesses lists on there, he would have come up with various documents.

5 And I mean, I don't want to put his case together for him. But there is

6 no Rule 68 in this exhibit. I did not provide it to Mr. Karnavas before

7 today here, but I provided it to him years ago. He is a fine lawyer. He

8 has the ability to search his own record. I do not believe that there's

9 any rule or any practice that requires me to give material that is clear

10 and is obvious over to the Defence again and stack it up to them.

11 Your Honour, if there is such a rule, I will follow it. But there's not

12 such a rule that I'm aware of.

13 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not asking for that, Your Honour. I'm asking

14 for common courtesy. This document, the exhibit list was prepared

15 yesterday, last night at 7.00. It's common courtesy. We showed up every

16 day and every morning. Right before the session we provided an exhibit

17 list so they could go ahead and search their documents anticipating what

18 we would do on cross-examination. I'm not suggesting that they point out

19 where the exculpatory material is. But I think it's common courtesy to do

20 this. And might I again remind everybody what the Appeals Chamber said in

21 Krstic, and I don't want to be in a position on appeal making the same

22 argument.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think, you know, at the very beginning of the

24 trial, we made a ruling on this aspect. We said that before the

25 cross-examination, the party conducting the cross-examination should

Page 8407

1 furnish at least a list of the documents they are going to use during the

2 cross-examination, which will greatly facilitate the proceedings of the

3 present case. I hope, Mr. McCloskey, you could do that for your next

4 witness before you take the stand to cross-examine that witness.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Furthermore, Your Honour --

6 JUDGE LIU: We also believe, Mr. Karnavas, you only have five

7 minutes left, we believe that during the night, I mean tonight, you could

8 search your documents and be prepared for tomorrow's cross-examination by

9 Mr. McCloskey.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: We did, Your Honour. We did. That's why I know

11 the document exists. I'm now given a translation. Obviously, they took

12 the time of translating this. We were never provided with a translation.

13 What I am trying to demonstrate here is the gamemanship that's going on.

14 We searched our documents. We located -- which is in the local language.

15 Now, we're being given documents that they have translated. Obviously,

16 they have an obligation to give us those translated versions. At least we

17 could check the translations against the original. That's what I'm

18 suggesting.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, you should have raised this issue long before,

20 ever since you got those documents.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, there are millions of documents that

22 are not translated. What I am suggesting is once they translate

23 documents, there is a continuing obligation for them to provide those

24 translated documents to us.

25 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's absolutely absurd, Your Honour. He is

Page 8408

1 making up law as he goes. We have to now translate all the documents to

2 them?

3 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not saying this.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is insanity.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: If they translate it, they should give it to us,

6 that's all I'm saying, especially if they are going to use it. That's all

7 I'm saying, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: In that respect, I agree with you. If this document

9 is going to be used in these proceedings, they have to be translated and

10 it has to be furnished to the other party and to the Bench before doing

11 the cross-examination.

12 Well, Mr. McCloskey, I think it's almost time. It seems to me

13 that you could not finish the cross-examination for today. Could we break

14 now, and we'll resume tomorrow.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Certainly.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. The hearing is adjourned for today.

17 And Witness, I'm afraid that we have to keep you here for another

18 day because the proceeding has not finished yet. Originally, we hoped we

19 could send you back today, but it seems to me that it's impossible. So

20 you have to be back tomorrow morning to continue the proceedings. And

21 during the period that you are staying in The Hague, please do not talk to

22 anybody or please do not let anybody talk to you about your testimony. Do

23 you understand that?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do understand it.

25 JUDGE LIU: I give every witness this kind of warning. This is

Page 8409

1 not for you.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

3 JUDGE LIU: So we'll resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in the same

4 courtroom.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day of April,

7 2004, at 9.00 a.m.