Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9125

1 Wednesday, 12 May 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.20 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case Number

8 IT-02-60-T, The Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

10 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I apologise for the delay.

11 But since we have the witness here, I'm not going to talk about it.

12 Good morning, Witness.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

14 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to continue?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

17 Mr. Karnavas.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning, Mr. President, good morning, Your

19 Honours. Good morning, sir.


21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Examined by Mr. Karnavas: [Continued]

23 Q. I want to pick up where we left off yesterday. If you recall, you

24 had indicated that at one point on the 11th of July 1995, you were on your

25 way back to get some supplies. Do you recall that?

Page 9126

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. And could you please tell us, just so we can pick up from

3 yesterday, where were you when you left off to go for the supplies?

4 A. We were there near Kula, some 10 to 100 metres away, down the

5 forest along our line.

6 Q. All right. And where were the supplies, sir? Where were the

7 supplies located?

8 A. They were up there in the room where we came when we first came.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. At the forward command post.

11 Q. All right. And so when you went there, what did you see, if

12 anything?

13 A. Well, I went up there, packed it up. General Mladic was there.

14 And there were some other officers there.

15 Q. Did you recognise the other officers?

16 A. Well, Mr. Krstic, the general. But I was in a hurry because I

17 didn't want Mr. Blagojevic to be alone down there. I didn't pay much

18 attention, just what I could see at first glance.

19 Q. Did you go up to General Mladic and General Krstic to salute them

20 as you went for your supplies?

21 A. No. They were -- they had their backs turned to me. At one

22 point, the general happened to see me and called me, and he said, "How

23 come you, little guy, are up here?" I went up. I said hello. He hugged

24 me, gave me a hug. And I said that I was with Colonel Blagojevic. He gave

25 me a hug. He said I shouldn't be afraid. And he said, "Well, where is

Page 9127

1 he, where is Blagojevic?" And I told him he was down with me in the

2 forest. And he said, "Didn't he go off to Srebrenica and does he know at

3 all that he can enter, that it's free?" I made no comment. And he said

4 once again, "Don't be afraid. You can take the message down to him quite

5 freely. You can go down there. Because I've already sent the soldiers

6 down. It's free. You can take the shortcut down there, and I'll be there

7 at about 6.30 myself." That's what he said more or less.

8 Q. All right. Now, had you met General Mladic before?

9 A. Well, not personally. I knew him, of course.

10 Q. Okay. So what did you do after that?

11 A. I continued on my way down to Colonel Blagojevic and conveyed the

12 message. So we didn't manage to have anything to eat at that point. He

13 looked at me rather astonished and said, "Well, we should have gone down

14 earlier. How can we down now that the others have left?"

15 He took the map and had a look to find a route down there, and the

16 spa was marked on the map, the one down below near Srebrenica, and there

17 was a path leading down there, a shortcut. However, we -- it seemed that

18 we had chosen the worst terrain to climb down. It was very steep. And I

19 had to sort of rush down. It was all we could do to reach the bottom. I

20 had injuries on my legs, and my boots were very tight, and I found it very

21 difficult to climb down. But somehow we did manage to reach that spa at

22 the bottom.

23 Q. All right. And then what happened when you reached the spa?

24 A. There really were soldiers there, ours. Everything was really

25 peaceful and quiet. They were moving around. And we continued to walk

Page 9128

1 around down there. We just said hello and went on towards the centre.

2 Q. All right. Now, did any soldiers come with you?

3 A. No.

4 Q. How far did you get down that day, on the 11th?

5 A. We got down to the school, and we sat down to have a rest there on

6 the steps.

7 Q. Where is the school?

8 A. Perhaps halfway, so in the middle of Srebrenica. Actually I

9 didn't know Srebrenica from before, but I would say it was somewhere in

10 the middle.

11 Q. All right. Who did you see when you got there?

12 A. Well, the soldiers were there, quite a lot of them. Some army,

13 but I didn't know who they were, although it was our army, but I didn't

14 know any of the soldiers.

15 Q. Did you speak with any of them?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did Colonel Blagojevic speak with any of them?

18 A. No.

19 Q. So what did you do?

20 A. We set out. And as I didn't have a signal, I wasn't getting a

21 signal because it was like a big depression, and I had to find a spot

22 where I could get my signal and call up the brigade command to come and

23 get us. But I wasn't able to get a signal.

24 Q. All right. Were you able ever to get a signal?

25 A. No.

Page 9129

1 Q. From there, where did you go?

2 A. As I said, we went down to the playground, I think. I found it

3 very hard to walk because I had sores on my feet from the boots and from

4 climbing down the hill. So I did my best to find a connection, a signal.

5 And the colonel said, "We'll go straight ahead and if someone turns up, if

6 a car turns up, they might be able to give us a lift if we're lucky." But

7 as I say, I really couldn't walk any more, my feet hurt. And I sat down

8 to find a signal, but I wasn't able to get one.

9 Q. All right. Now, you said that you were by the playground. Could

10 you please tell us where the playground is located, if you know.

11 A. I think it was towards the end of Srebrenica, the very centre.

12 Q. So if you were coming into Srebrenica from Bratunac or Potocari,

13 that would be the entrance of Srebrenica?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. So you had come in through the other way, from the other

16 direction?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. All right. So in which direction were you walking? Were you

19 walking back into the centre of Srebrenica or were you walking towards

20 Potocari?

21 A. No. We were walking towards Potocari because we were on our way

22 to Bratunac.

23 Q. And about what time was it, if you recall?

24 A. I don't know exactly what the time was. But it wasn't dark yet,

25 to towards evening. Before dusk.

Page 9130

1 Q. All right, how far did you walk?

2 A. Not far. We stopped somewhere there, and I was looking for a

3 signal, as I've already said. But the colonel called out to me. Colonel

4 Blagojevic said, "Don't waste time trying to find a signal. They're not

5 going to let us pass anyway, so we can't pass."

6 Q. All right. So why did he say that?

7 A. I don't know. There must have been some soldiers there, a

8 checkpoint of some kind. And they wouldn't allow anybody to pass by.

9 They said that we couldn't go further down.

10 Q. Did a car ever come by?

11 A. Yes. As I said -- no, I said, never mind. And I didn't know

12 there was a side road. However, a vehicle did come by. I didn't know

13 what it was. It was moving around town. And the colonel called out to me

14 and said, "Come on, we'll go with him. Come on, lad. We'll go with him."

15 And then we took the side road to Bratunac.

16 Q. Okay. In which direction was the car heading? In which direction

17 was the car heading initially when it was stopped? Or the vehicle.

18 A. From Srebrenica.

19 Q. All right. But in which direction was this vehicle heading when

20 you first saw it? Was it going towards Srebrenica, towards the other end,

21 or was it heading towards Potocari?

22 A. Towards Potocari.

23 Q. Okay. And at what point did you get into the car?

24 A. Well, all I saw was that the car was turning round on the road.

25 And at that point, the colonel called out to me.

Page 9131

1 Q. Okay. Once you got into the car, or in this vehicle -- and let's

2 figure out first of all what kind of a vehicle is it?

3 A. It was a heavy-duty vehicle of some kind. But how shall I explain

4 this to you? I was not -- I was tired. I was exhausted. Looked

5 terrible. I didn't pay much attention. I just got in and said, "Thank

6 goodness I don't have to go on foot."

7 But anyway, it was a heavy-duty vehicle of some kind. I didn't

8 know the driver. We didn't speak a single word in the car until we

9 reached Bratunac and the brigade command.

10 Q. Now, when you got into this vehicle, in which direction was the

11 vehicle going towards, when you got in?

12 A. Well, right where we were, not far off from there, there was a

13 road of some kind. And it was -- it led across a hill. And it was a sort

14 of round-about route, a byroad that we took from Srebrenica, Potocari. We

15 circumvented that whole area and went further up. I don't know what the

16 road was.

17 Q. Was there any attempt to go through Potocari while you were in

18 this vehicle?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Okay. Now, what are the lighting conditions at this point in time

21 when you get into this vehicle?

22 A. I don't know what you mean by "lighting conditions".

23 Q. Well, you didn't have a watch on, you said, so we don't know what

24 time it is. So I'm asking you if you could tell us what the lighting

25 conditions were so that we know perhaps about what time it might have

Page 9132

1 been. So do you recall what the lighting conditions were when you got

2 into this vehicle?

3 A. I don't remember.

4 Q. All right. How long had you been in Srebrenica at this point in

5 time before you got into the vehicle?

6 A. Perhaps about an hour. The amount of time we needed to go down,

7 go through Srebrenica, and look for some transport. So one to two hours.

8 Q. During that period while you were in Srebrenica, did you see any

9 officers?

10 A. It was only when we got in down there and passed by both sides.

11 Behind us, you could hear, and I saw -- caught a glimpse of General Mladic

12 and some others in a group with him. I wasn't able to recognise who was

13 there exactly.

14 Q. What was General Mladic doing?

15 A. I don't know. He was shouting at some soldiers. That's what you

16 could hear. Because you could hear a voice shouting, so we looked up to

17 see.

18 Q. Where was Colonel Blagojevic at this point in time?

19 A. He was next to me, perhaps a metre or two away from me.

20 Q. And where exactly in Srebrenica, if you know, were you located?

21 Sir, where exactly were you when you saw General Mladic?

22 A. We were on one side of the department store looking towards, in

23 the direction of -- or rather, down Srebrenica. We would be on the right.

24 And Mr. Mladic and the others were on the left-hand side behind the

25 department store, more or less in front of the municipality building.

Page 9133

1 Q. What's the name of the department store?

2 A. I really don't know. It just said department store, "robna kuca."

3 Q. What was the distance between where you were located and General

4 Mladic?

5 A. Well, perhaps 50-odd metres, maybe.

6 Q. What was Colonel Blagojevic's response when he saw General Mladic,

7 or his reaction?

8 A. Well, nothing. He just turned round, took a look, and continued

9 on his way, and of course I did the same.

10 Q. Did you go in the direction where General Mladic was?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Why not, if you know?

13 A. I don't know.

14 Q. All right. Now I thought you told us that General Mladic had

15 instructed you to tell Colonel Blagojevic that he would see him in

16 Srebrenica around 6.30 in the afternoon. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes. Yes.

18 Q. Did you pass that message on to your commander?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. So at that point in time, when you saw General Mladic, your

21 commander knew or would have known from your conversation with the

22 commander that General Mladic expected to see him. Correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you remind your commander that General Mladic wanted to see

25 him and perhaps the two of you should go and greet the general?

Page 9134

1 A. No. I didn't need to. He'd already seen.

2 Q. All right. In which direction did you and your commander go in

3 relation to where General Mladic was heading at the time?

4 A. General Mladic wasn't moving around. He wasn't heading anywhere.

5 He was just standing around with this group, and we went towards town,

6 towards the centre of town, because it was the very entrance to

7 Srebrenica, the way we had come.

8 Q. When you did that, did you do it in a manner in which or -- did

9 you take a route where at least General Mladic could see the two of you,

10 that you were both in Srebrenica?

11 A. Well, yes, except that we turned when we came to the school, made

12 a turn and had a rest there. I'm not sure that he could have seen us

13 there. Perhaps not.

14 Q. Did you see General Mladic after that?

15 A. No.

16 Q. What time did you get into town? Back to Bratunac, after you got

17 into this car?

18 A. It was dusk, perhaps 9.00, half past 8.00, 9.00, I'm not quite

19 sure. But this was judging by the atmospheric conditions, not by the

20 watch. So it had begun to be dark.

21 Q. How long did it take you to get back from -- to get back to

22 Bratunac from the time that you got into this vehicle? How long did it

23 take you, in light of the route that you took?

24 A. I don't know. I thought it might have been an hour. An hour and

25 a half.

Page 9135

1 Q. Is this an asphalt road that you took?

2 A. Not to begin with. We went across a hill first, but then

3 afterwards we reached an asphalt road.

4 Q. Can you tell us -- can you recount the route that you took from

5 Srebrenica back to Bratunac? Do you know the location?

6 A. Later on, I realised, I think it went up until -- up by the Sase

7 mine. It's like going round in a circle, in circles. You pass by all

8 these places, and then you emerge on Bratunac territory from that other

9 side, the opposite side.

10 Q. In this way, you bypassed Potocari completely?

11 A. Yes. We bypassed it quite a bit. We took the route in quite the

12 opposite direction.

13 Q. Now, you indicated that your legs and your feet had been hurting.

14 At one point, did you come across any horses?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Where was that, sir?

17 A. Well, it was there while we were waiting at the playground, and

18 Colonel Blagojevic said to me that we would continue on foot. And if we

19 got down to the bottom, we might be picked up by a car. And I made a joke

20 and said, "Colonel," because there were four or five horses over there and

21 they were in harness. And I made a joke, perhaps I could take a horse and

22 help me along because I had all my gear on me. He just looked at me and

23 said, "Don't let me catch you doing anything like that, anything of the

24 kind." Although I did sort of make a joke of it.

25 Q. All right. Now, once you got back to Bratunac, what did you do?

Page 9136

1 A. Yes, we got down to Bratunac, the brigade command, and the young

2 guy left us there and went back. And I found it very hard to get out of

3 the car because I had grown cold and stiff, and it was all I could do to

4 reach the command. I gave back my equipment that was issued to me. I

5 reported to the komandir and said I would be at home because I had to take

6 a rest. And I said good-bye to the colonel there.

7 Q. Did you notice any officers over there from any other units when

8 you got out of the car or out of this vehicle?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Where were you let off once you got to Bratunac?

11 A. Well, as I say, he brought us to in front of the entrance of the

12 command.

13 Q. Did you go inside the building at that point?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. When you got into the building -- incidentally, where is your

16 office?

17 A. You mean in the building? You want me to describe that?

18 Q. Yes, please. We know there's a right entrance. We know there's a

19 left entrance, we know there's a ground floor, and we know there's a first

20 floor. So if you could tell us where was your office in that building?

21 A. I had an office not in that building, but there was an auxiliary,

22 an annex building where we had our equipment. And they were the

23 maintenance men there on duty there, like me. So we would leave our

24 equipment there and pick it up from that point.

25 Q. Now, that wasn't the building where the military police were

Page 9137

1 stationed in, was it?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Okay. Now, when you got to this auxiliary building, did you

4 notice any other officers, higher echelon officers, or officers from other

5 units?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. How long did you stay there?

8 A. Not long.

9 Q. From there, where did you go?

10 A. Perhaps some 15 minutes.

11 Q. And from there, where did you go?

12 A. I went home then.

13 Q. Where is your home?

14 A. Nearby, about two kilometres away.

15 Q. In which direction? Towards Ljubovija, towards Kravica, or

16 towards Potocari? Which direction?

17 A. Not towards any of these. It wasn't in any of these directions.

18 It was in the fourth direction.

19 Q. Which direction is that?

20 A. The direction we had come from when we were going toward Bratunac

21 by car.

22 Q. All right. Now, when was the next -- when was the next time that

23 you reported -- reported into the Bratunac Brigade for duty?

24 A. Well, on the next day, I reported, and they could see that I

25 couldn't walk. I said if it was absolutely necessary, I could be on duty

Page 9138

1 at the command, and they said, "No, don't worry. Go home and have a rest.

2 Take at least seven days' leave." I couldn't even put my slippers on. I

3 didn't leave my house. I couldn't walk for at least ten days.

4 Q. Now, when you reported, how did you report, though, the next day?

5 A. By telephone.

6 Q. Did you go to Zepa when the Bratunac Brigade went there?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Where do you currently live?

9 A. Where I did before.

10 Q. That's in the Bratunac area?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Have you been there for the last five or six years or since the

13 time that you left the -- since 1995, you lived in that area?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you. I have no further questions. There

16 maybe some questions from Mr. Stojanovic's lawyer. The Prosecution may

17 have some questions, and I'm sure the Judges may have a question or two.

18 I want to thank you very much. You may wish to put your pen away because

19 it's a little distracting for some. I appreciate your interest.

20 Thank you.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Karnavas.

22 Mr. Lukic, do you have any questions for this witness?

23 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, I will only have three short

24 questions.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

Page 9139

1 MR. LUKIC: And with your permission, I would like to put those

2 questions in B/C/S. It's easier for the witness to understand me as well.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course. Whatever language you feel is easier

4 to use. But be sure to make a pause after each questions and answers.

5 MR. LUKIC: I'll do my best.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

7 Q. [Interpretation] Good day.

8 A. Good day.

9 Q. I will mention a number which should not confuse you. It's only

10 for the record. Yesterday, on page 73, line 15, Mr. Karnavas asked you

11 the following question. It concerned the centre at Kik, the intercept

12 centre. On the same page, line 19, you said that coded messages were

13 transported by courier and that these messages were taken to the corps.

14 Do you recall your reply?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you know who carried these messages? Do you know the name of

17 the courier?

18 A. No.

19 Q. While at Kik, did you sometimes see Lieutenant Colonel Jevtovic

20 there?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you know who at this intercept centre was the superior from the

23 corps?

24 A. No.

25 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have no further

Page 9140

1 questions.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

3 Mr. McCloskey, cross-examination, please.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. McCloskey:

6 Q. Good morning, sir. Can you tell us --

7 A. Good morning.

8 Q. -- how old you were in July of 1995?

9 A. 21, I think.

10 Q. Okay. And when you were speaking of the events between July 6th

11 through about the 11th, I noticed many times you answered that you didn't

12 recall. You didn't recall whether you'd received messages over your radio

13 or you didn't recall whether you'd sent messages. Is it fair to say your

14 memory of those days is not very good?

15 A. If you are referring to the messages I transmitted, I said that I

16 remembered I hadn't.

17 Q. I'm asking you how -- so you could have received messages that you

18 just don't remember. Is that right?

19 A. I remember that I did not receive any messages.

20 Q. Do you know Djordje Pejic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you remember seeing him around 10 and 11 July in the Pribicevac

23 area?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were you present in what he has described as being the Pribicevac

Page 9141

1 area where he was there on that hill with General Blagojevic and General

2 Krstic, and General Krstic gave him an order to take him some kind of

3 engineering machine and do some work with it down the hill? Do you

4 remember that?

5 A. I'm not aware of that.

6 Q. And (redacted) was concerned about that

7 job, and so he left the area briefly and called Colonel Blagojevic and

8 spoke to him on the telephone and asked him about whether he needed to do

9 that job or not. And he said that Colonel Blagojevic over the phone told

10 him, yeah, he had to go do it. Do you remember any of that?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Now, what was your code name for your commander Blagojevic in your

13 little radio centre that you were carrying around with you?

14 A. Do I have to say that?

15 Q. It's not a secret any more. Don't worry about it. You don't have

16 to, but it's really not a secret any more.

17 A. Very well. Well, it's not a secret. But I was taught that.

18 That's how I was trained

19 Q. Well, you were taught not to tell the enemy anything about what

20 you were doing. Correct?

21 A. Yes. Well, it was "RUMA Jedan."

22 Q. Okay. Let me show you something. It has been marked as P852.

23 And if we could show him just the front page of the B/C/S version. And if

24 we could put the English on the ELMO. This is something that the Office

25 of the Prosecutor obtained. And it appears to be a work schedule for the

Page 9142

1 radio network for an operation called Krivaja 95.

2 And have you ever seen this before?

3 A. No.

4 Q. And here it says the code name for the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry

5 Brigade is RUMA. And you had told us a similar name earlier. Is that

6 what you remember the code name being, RUMA?

7 A. Yes. That was in the brigade. And I was RUMA 1, or "jedan." And

8 yes, all the papers I had were about RUMA, not about anything else.

9 Q. And what was Colonel Blagojevic's code name?

10 A. It was RUMA 1, and I responded. But it was the same code name.

11 Q. And you were aware of the code names of the other units and posts

12 on this list, I take it?

13 A. Well, I'm not aware of this. This may have been down there in the

14 brigade, but I never carried this on me.

15 Q. Well, you would have needed to know the code names of, say, for

16 example, the forward command post of the Drina Corps at Pribicevac?

17 A. Yes. But my komandir didn't give me anything, really.

18 Q. Do you think Colonel Blagojevic would have gone into combat

19 without knowing any of the code names of the units in his command post?

20 Is that what you're saying? Military secrets are over now. You're

21 testifying under oath.

22 A. I'm only speaking the truth. I'm telling you honestly. But

23 whether Colonel Blagojevic went into combat or not, I don't know. But

24 those were the orders I had. And I had only that.

25 Q. Let me show you a map that -- just to help us a bit with some of

Page 9143

1 the areas you've talked about.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: This has been marked as P858. And if we could

3 also -- we could put it on the ELMO. And if you could centre on the ELMO

4 the -- what is marked as Pribicevac. That should do it.

5 And this, Your Honours, is a 1:25.000 scale map. It's a little

6 bigger than the 1:50.000 maps that we've usually seen. So each of those

7 squares should be a kilometre.

8 Q. Now, Witness, do you see marked on this map the little village of

9 Pribicevac with -- it has got little buildings marked around it?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Was the building that you stayed in in that little cluster or in

12 that area of buildings somewhere? It may not be the exact building.

13 Don't worry about that. I'm just asking you the general area. Is that

14 where the building was?

15 A. Yes. Somewhere in the centre. I'm not quite sure, but yes.

16 Q. You've spoken of a little hilltop area at Kula. Was there an

17 observation area up there on that hilltop at Kula where people frequently

18 went? Is this, in fact, where you talked about going to?

19 A. Yes. We would go there from time to time.

20 Q. And could you point -- just point that out for us so we -- I mean,

21 I think we can all see it. But just to make sure we're on the --

22 A. [Indicates]

23 Q. Thank you. And that was a little bare hilltop that -- where you

24 could look right down into the valley and see Srebrenica?

25 A. Well, yes. I couldn't see anything, but I didn't really look.

Page 9144

1 Probably you could see something. I don't know.

2 Q. I just asked you if you could look down and see Srebrenica.

3 A. I didn't see it.

4 Q. Are you telling us you can't stand on that bare hilltop and look

5 right down and see the town of Srebrenica?

6 A. I was standing some 50 metres in front of the trenches. Maybe you

7 could see down if you went behind the line, but I didn't dare do that.

8 Q. You've described going up to Kula with your commander several

9 times over those days. And so when you went up to Kula, you went up to

10 take a look around, didn't you? That's what that observation post was

11 for, so it could overview the battle scene.

12 A. No. There was a table in front of the trenches. We sat there.

13 And the people in the trench would make us coffee. We didn't look at a

14 battlefield. There was no battlefield there. We simply sat there. My

15 task was to establish a communication, to man my equipment, to be close to

16 my equipment all the time. So I sat there at the table, and I didn't

17 really have any need to walk around and look about.

18 Q. You've said that your commander, Blagojevic, went up to Kula

19 several times, Kula being, as we can see, the top, the little bare knoll.

20 Didn't you go up there with him?

21 A. Look here, he was there, but it's not really such a high

22 elevation. We sat at that table. There was nowhere to go.

23 Q. So you went up to Kula with your commander, to the top of that

24 little hill several times over those days?

25 A. Yes. Yes.

Page 9145

1 Q. But you never looked down towards Srebrenica?

2 A. Maybe I would look towards Srebrenica, but there were trees. What

3 was there to see but trees?

4 Q. You can see a good part of Srebrenica from the top of that hill.

5 There's no trees. It's a bare hill, and it's a high elevation. You look

6 right down into the town. Right?

7 A. I didn't see it. Really.

8 Q. So you never saw any of the shell detonations in town on the 9th,

9 10th, 11th of July?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Do you know who the commander of the 3rd Battalion is? Mr. Zekic?

12 A. I'm not sure.

13 Q. Did you -- were you present with Mr. Blagojevic when Mr. Zekic

14 reported to him personally on the 11th of July?

15 A. I didn't know Mr. Zekic.

16 Q. So did any officers -- do you remember any officers reporting to

17 Colonel Blagojevic on the 11th of July?

18 A. As for reporting, that can take a few minutes. And I didn't say I

19 was stuck to Colonel Blagojevic. I had to go to the toilet, to fetch

20 water, or I may simply have dozed off for half an hour. So something like

21 that could have happened. But I didn't see it.

22 Q. So that certainly officers could have reported and communicated

23 with Colonel Blagojevic and you didn't know about it because you weren't

24 stuck with him every minute?

25 A. Well, it was only for brief periods that I was absent to go to the

Page 9146

1 toilet or to fetch water. But he could have needed to establish

2 communications, but he didn't ask me to call the brigade or anybody else.

3 I don't think he had anything to hide from me. But I never noticed or

4 observed him talking to anyone.

5 Q. Do you know where he slept each night from 6th July through 11th

6 July? Let me say through 10th of July.

7 A. He slept there in that building where we were the first time.

8 Q. Were you aware if General Krstic went back to Bratunac each

9 evening those days?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So you're sure Colonel Blagojevic did not go back to Bratunac on

12 those evenings?

13 A. No. I'm sure that he didn't.

14 Q. Did you have every single meal that you ever ate from 6 July

15 through 11 July with Colonel Blagojevic? Breakfast, lunch, dinner?

16 A. Well, you see, our needs for food were different. I had two

17 meals; he had three meals a day. Or I had one meal and he had two. We

18 didn't eat together. He would eat or I would eat.

19 Q. So there were many times where he had meals without you?

20 A. I don't know how many times. But as I said, we didn't have a

21 predetermined schedule as to when we would both eat. But he took his food

22 there. He didn't go somewhere, to a restaurant. He stayed there to eat.

23 Q. I'm going to show you a little video, just ask you a couple of

24 questions about it. And if you see anything you recognise, you can tell

25 us as well.

Page 9147

1 [Videoclip played]


3 Q. Do you recognise anybody in that photo?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you recognise that equipment on the back of that fellow's back?

6 A. Yes. I carried something similar.

7 Q. So what is that?

8 A. I can't see properly. I'm not sure, but it reminds me of the RUP

9 that I carried.

10 Q. Maybe we'll get a better look at it. Let's just keep going. Is

11 that an RUP?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. So if this person was one of the units in the Srebrenica

14 operation, could you have -- and you had his frequency and his call sign,

15 could you have spoken to this person on your RUP?

16 A. Well, it depended on the configuration of the terrain. If it was

17 within range to my network and if I knew the frequency, then yes.

18 Q. Do you recognise this person in this black uniform or black

19 jumpsuit wearing this RUP?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You can get a better look now. Do you recognise that guy?

22 A. No, no.

23 Q. All right. Do you know who that is on this still shot?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. And is that a Motorola that he's speaking into in his right

Page 9148

1 hand?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, take a look at what's in his left hand, and let's play the

4 video a bit.

5 A. A receiver of some kind.

6 Q. Well, in his left hand, is that the same kind of a phone device

7 that a RUP-12 or another kind of radio might have? And right now, we can

8 see this big RUP-12-looking antenna that's sticking out as well.

9 A. Yes, it looks like it, but I'm not sure because I can't see the

10 actual device.

11 Q. Right. Maybe we can get a better look. Let's just watch it.

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's from P21.

13 Q. Was that the kind of radio traffic you could hear during these

14 days, 6 July through 11 July?

15 A. I don't understand what you mean. Was that what?

16 Q. Your radio was on, I take it, during 6 July through 11 July, your

17 RUP, wasn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you listened to various channels and frequencies during that

20 time, didn't you?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Didn't listen to any traffic at all?

23 A. I couldn't listen.

24 Q. You couldn't have your radio on and hear what that guy was saying,

25 for example, if you listened on the same frequency and the same channel?

Page 9149

1 A. No. I had the KZ encryption protection, and I could only talk to

2 the brigade command with this KZ system. So in that case, they would have

3 had to change the key. I would have had to go to Bratunac, had the key

4 changed, and then I might have a chance.

5 Q. Could people call you on your RUP-12 and speak to you over the

6 open airwaves?

7 A. No.

8 Q. You were completely out of communication, then? Your radio was --

9 you couldn't be contacted?

10 A. No. I did have a connection to whom I was subordinated. So

11 myself and Colonel Blagojevic, we had a connection with the people down

12 there at the brigade. And I had to change the key, receive the codes if I

13 wanted to hear, and have communication with the other units.

14 Q. So you could only receive encrypted communications from the

15 brigade during this time?

16 A. No. The tone was clear. But if somebody else wasn't able to

17 follow us -- there was no reception on our part. That's why the KZ system

18 was there.

19 Q. Could someone from the forward command post while you and the

20 colonel were at the top of the hill at Kula, could someone call you on the

21 radio and speak to you without encryption?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you or Blagojevic have a Motorola?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So the only way anyone could ever get in touch with Blagojevic was

Page 9150

1 by courier or by person or by an encrypted message. Is that what you're

2 saying?

3 A. Well, more or less, yes.

4 MR. McCLOSKEY: No further questions.

5 JUDGE LIU: Any redirect, Mr. Karnavas?

6 MR. KARNAVAS: This cross calls for no redirect, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

8 Well, at this stage, are there any documents to tender?

9 Mr. Karnavas.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: No, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. McCloskey?

12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. I think the communications

13 plan which was P852 and just the small map that we used, P858.

14 JUDGE LIU: Any objections, Mr. Karnavas?

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, the communication plan, Your Honour, I fail

16 to see how this comes in, on what foundation it comes in. It was pointed

17 to the gentleman, he looked at it, he recognised the code name. But other

18 than that, there was no other foundation. And there's a bunch of

19 information in this that has been translated that we don't know who is it

20 from, what relevance it might have, and it might have some prejudicial

21 value to this case and no probative. So unless I can hear some more

22 argument on it, I would -- I don't think it should be admitted.

23 As for the map, I welcome the introduction of this map. And if we

24 could have some more maps of that size, I think it would be nice.

25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Mr. McCloskey, would you please lay some

Page 9151

1 foundations for Document P852.

2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I think the most significant from what we've

3 seen is that it roughly matches the code name that this witness has spoken

4 to, so it does provide us information. It's also a document that was

5 obtained during the -- and I'll have to double check this, but I'm almost

6 sure it was obtained during the search of the -- in fact, it is. It was

7 obtained along with the other materials from the search of the Bratunac

8 Brigade. It was dealt with quite a bit in the Krstic case. It was a

9 Krstic exhibit. And Defence have had it, you know, forever. And it's

10 basically a list of codes and units and phrases that -- military phrases

11 that are coded so you don't have to alert the enemy what you're saying.

12 You can just say, you know, the code name or the code number for it.

13 It's a good listing, I think, of the units involved in the

14 operation and would be helpful for the Court to have, as well as, of

15 course, it relates directly to this witness.

16 JUDGE LIU: This document is only related to the Bratunac Brigade,

17 and not the Zvornik Brigade, I suppose.

18 MR. McCLOSKEY: It is actually what we believe is the Drina Corps

19 communications plan for Krivaja 95. It is a -- it should be seen in

20 conjunction with the Krivaja 95 plan. You can see on the front of it, it

21 makes specific reference to "strictly confidential, Krivaja 95." And so

22 it's normal for a Drina Corps-type operation to have a communications

23 plan. And so you can see that the Bratunac Brigade is listed as one of

24 the users in the communication schedule. But so are all the other units

25 that we know that have already been mentioned by various witnesses to be

Page 9152

1 involved in this attack. The forward command post, the Zvornik Brigade;

2 the 2nd Romanija Brigade, that was Mr. Trivic's; the Birac Brigade, that's

3 Sveto Zarandric; Milici, that's Nastic; Vlasnica. So it's a corps-wide

4 plan.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

6 Well, this Bench believes that this document is relevant to this

7 case, and in this particular witness it goes to the credibility of this

8 witness. And it has some probative value. So those two documents, P852,

9 and the map, P858, are admitted into the evidence. It is so decided.

10 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give

11 your evidence. After we're adjourned, the usher will show you out of the

12 room. We wish you a pleasant journey back home.

13 The hearing is adjourned and will resume at 11.00.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

16 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

20 JUDGE LIU: Would you please stand up and make the solemn

21 declaration in accordance with the paper the usher is showing to you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

23 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may sit down, please.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you, too.

Page 9153

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.


4 [Witness answered through interpreter]

5 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:

6 Q. I guess it's still good morning, sir.

7 Would you please tell us what your name is.

8 A. Milos Loncarevic.

9 Q. Could you please tell us your last name letter by letter.

10 A. L-o-n-c-a-r-e-v-i-c.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Loncarevic.

12 Could you please tell us where you're from.

13 A. From Bratunac.

14 Q. Where did you grow up?

15 A. In Bratunac.

16 Q. Could you please tell us a little bit about your educational

17 background.

18 A. I completed the chemical technical vocational school in Tuzla.

19 Q. And what year was that?

20 A. And I went to Italy to specialise in ceramics. 1989. That was my

21 specialisation term. And my secondary school education in 1968.

22 Q. Thank you. Did you do your JNA service?

23 A. Yes. In 1968 in Virovitica in Croatia.

24 Q. And did you receive any training when you were with the JNA,

25 specialised training?

Page 9154

1 A. Yes. Well, not specialised. I was a radio operator, signalsman,

2 that kind of thing, in communications for the artillery.

3 Q. Now, were you mobilised at the outbreak of the war in 1992?

4 A. Not at the very beginning, but yes, I was mobilised.

5 Q. Prior to being mobilised, could you please tell us what was your

6 occupation and what you were doing in Bratunac?

7 A. Before mobilisation, I was the production manager in the factory

8 for ceramic tiles in Bratunac.

9 Q. And what is the name of that factory?

10 A. It is the name of Kaolin Bratunac ceramics factory.

11 Q. As the production manager, could you please tell us a little bit

12 about what that entailed, your job?

13 A. Well, I was responsible for the overall production line in the

14 whole ceramic tile factory. I was the number one man in the production

15 area.

16 Q. Could you please tell us whether you were supervising anyone, and

17 if so, how many?

18 A. Depending on the programmes we had --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the number.


21 Q. Would you please first slow down and then if you can repeat the

22 number again of the employees.

23 A. Yes. As I was saying, depending on the output, there were

24 approximately 460 workers in production.

25 Q. And could you please tell us the output of this factory so at

Page 9155

1 least we have sort of an understanding of -- now that we know how many

2 people you were managing, what sort of production you were outputting.

3 A. It was like this. It was a factory, and its capacity was one of

4 the biggest in Europe, in fact, in the 1980s. It was the third-largest

5 factory in the world of that kind. The surface area of the factory itself

6 was two and a half hectares, and it was under one roof. And the annual

7 production was two and a half million square metres.

8 Q. Of tiles?

9 A. I didn't understand.

10 Q. Two and a half million square metres of what?

11 A. Yes, tiles. Tiles.

12 Q. Okay. All right. Now, was this factory working during the war?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Why not?

15 A. Well, we couldn't organise the production line properly because it

16 requires a continuous manufacturing process. Let me just tell you that to

17 heat up the tunnel furnaces, for example, you would need a cycle of 21

18 days, and as much to have the furnaces cooled down. So that I had to go

19 around collecting up workers from the villages, but I wasn't able to

20 ensure that level of production.

21 Q. Now, if you can just please tell us the layout of this factory

22 compound so we have some understanding of the space of it. How many

23 buildings are we talking about?

24 A. Well, the overall factory was under one roof, two and a half

25 hectares of it, under just one single roof. All that was separate, but

Page 9156

1 also under this one roof was the administrative building where the command

2 was.

3 Q. All right. Was there a parking area?

4 A. There was a parking area for privately owned vehicles outside this

5 general compound.

6 Q. And you said that the administration building was attached to

7 this -- or was one -- it was part of the factory. Could you please tell

8 us, what was the administration building being used for during the war?

9 A. The administration building was used as the command, the

10 right-hand area.

11 Q. All right. Now -- and we're going to get to that later on when we

12 get to the sketch of the building itself. But let me ask you, we have

13 heard testimony that there was a small building or a shack or what have

14 you in front of the factory that was being used by the military police.

15 A. Yes. But that belonged to decorative ceramics. It didn't

16 actually belong to the Kaolin factory. It was outside the gates and the

17 Kaolin compound, in front of the reception area.

18 Q. Well, from listening to your answer, am I correct in stating that

19 the factory itself was -- that there was a gate and a fence or some sort

20 of a wall surrounding the factory?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, I want to focus your attention to the period of -- first,

23 we're going to start from 1992 to 1995, just very briefly, if you could

24 tell us when you were mobilised.

25 A. Yes. I was mobilised at the beginning of May and distributed in

Page 9157

1 the Territorial Defence as the factory had been stopped. I took out the

2 gas that existed because there was the danger of bombing and that the

3 bombing would set fire to it, to the gas, because the basic fuel for the

4 production of ceramic tiles was propane, butane gas.

5 Q. When you were mobilised, where were you mobilised and what was

6 your function?

7 A. I was deployed up at the line at Paici as an ordinary soldier.

8 Q. Now, did a time come when you became a member of the Bratunac

9 Brigade?

10 A. That was later because I was redeployed to the famous Kunjerac

11 area, and there was an attack at Kunjerac every second or third day, and

12 it was a difficult position to be assigned to.

13 Q. This was before the establishment of the Bratunac Brigade?

14 A. Before, yes.

15 Q. Okay. Well, let's skip that part and let's get to when you were

16 mobilised with the Bratunac Brigade or when you became a member of it.

17 Could you please tell us where -- in what unit you were serving.

18 A. Sometime in September in 1993, as chance would have it, I was not

19 in the truck where nine soldiers were killed on the way to Kunjerac, nine

20 individuals. I think five soldiers and three women were killed. And I

21 left that unit and went back to my company.

22 Q. Okay. Which company were you in at that point in time?

23 A. At that time, or the one I went to? I wasn't in a single company

24 when I left the Territorial Defence at Kunjerac at that position there.

25 For a time, I was in the company -- I mean in the factory in the

Page 9158

1 enterprise without any position.

2 Q. All right. Let me fast-forward to July 1995. Would you please

3 tell us whether you were with the Bratunac Brigade in July 1995.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Which unit were you serving in July 1995?

6 A. I was in the rocket unit, the Bratunac Brigade.

7 Q. How long had you been in the rocket unit?

8 A. From September 1993.

9 Q. Okay. And so from September 1993 to July 1995, and perhaps

10 onwards, you're with the -- in this rocket unit. Correct?

11 A. Well, until July 1995 because I was demobilised later.

12 Q. Now, could you please tell us what position you held in July 1995

13 in this rocket unit.

14 A. I was the komandir of the squad of that rocket unit.

15 Q. Could you please tell us in which company or in which battalion of

16 the Bratunac Brigade this rocket unit belonged to?

17 A. None. As far as I know, no company or unit. We were independent,

18 as far as I know, because before me there was another komandir of that

19 unit, and I inherited the unit from him.

20 Q. Well, did you take any orders at any point in time from Mico

21 Gavric?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You do know Mico Gavric, do you not?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Now, could you please tell us where this rocket unit was located

Page 9159

1 back in July 1995 concretely.

2 A. The rocket unit was located in the compound of the Javor company,

3 Javor Bratunac, it was a warehouse for building construction material, one

4 kilometre away from the centre of town.

5 Q. Going in which direction?

6 A. In the direction of Ljubovija, Serbia.

7 Q. So that would be the opposite direction from Potocari?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. Now, could you please tell us for how long the unit

10 had been located there?

11 A. It was located there throughout, before I arrived to join it.

12 Q. Would you please tell us how many men were in this unit?

13 A. Seven.

14 Q. And what sort of training did you and your men get to be in this

15 rocket unit?

16 A. None.

17 Q. How do you know to set off the rockets if you needed to use them

18 at any given time?

19 A. Well, they were devices that we had seen. We saw these launchers

20 in Bijeljina, for example, on one occasion. We saw them once, but it's

21 not a device that you need any special schooling to operate.

22 Q. Who were the members of these -- you don't have to give us the

23 actual names, but what sort of folk comprised this unit, this rocket unit?

24 A. Well, this is how it was: Mostly people, some were more important

25 for the Bratunac Municipality, personages well known about town, if I can

Page 9160

1 put it that way. There was an electrical engineer, for example. There

2 was a machine engineer. I was the director of the factory. There was

3 another director from the distribution side, distribution department.

4 Then there was a driver. He had a father and brother up at the line,

5 front lines. And so that was it. Mostly people who wanted to get away

6 from the front line.

7 Q. Would you please tell us how close to the front line this rocket

8 unit was located.

9 A. About four kilometres I would say.

10 Q. From September 1993 to July 1995, prior to the events concerning

11 Srebrenica, would you please tell us how much action your rocket unit saw;

12 combat action, that is.

13 A. Almost nothing. We didn't see any action because we had very few

14 rockets. We had a very small quantity, and those were 70-millimetre

15 calibre rockets on the trailer. The launchers we had on the truck, we

16 didn't use because the rockets were out of order. These were

17 57-millimetre rockets.

18 Q. Okay. Well, I want to go into great detail as far as what you had

19 available. But just first, before we get to that, could you please

20 describe to us what you were doing, what you and your unit were doing,

21 from September 1993 to July 1995? How did you spend your time there?

22 A. Let me tell you, we sat around, we were on duty. We drank brandy

23 and coffee because we were a well-off unit as far as materiel goods were

24 concerned. So the lower-ranking officers who came from the command, we

25 could offer them a drink.

Page 9161

1 Q. All right. Where did you stay at night? Did you have facilities

2 there for you to sleep?

3 A. No. We would spend the nights at home.

4 Q. How close were you to your house?

5 A. My house was a hundred metres away. Not just me, but the whole

6 unit would go, and only one person would remain on duty who could call us

7 on the phone if necessary.

8 Q. What sort of means of communication did you have there?

9 A. Well, the usual city telephone line.

10 Q. And with this telephone line, could you be -- could you contact

11 the Bratunac Brigade headquarters?

12 A. Yes. Through the communications centre.

13 Q. Could you communicate with, for instance, Pribicevac where the

14 3rd Battalion had its command post or where, during the days in

15 Srebrenica --

16 A. Yes, through the communications centre again. But we didn't

17 contact. I don't know, I didn't call anyone then.

18 Q. When you say through the communications centre, what are you

19 speaking of?

20 A. Well, that was the communications centre, the people working in

21 the command who were making sure there were communications with those

22 battalions and those units there. They had a telephone switchboard there.

23 It belonged to my company.

24 Q. All right. But directly, from where you were located, could you

25 directly place a call, for instance, to Pribicevac?

Page 9162

1 A. No. No.

2 Q. What about to your house?

3 A. Yes. You can only call numbers in Bratunac, nowhere else.

4 Q. All right. Now, let's talk about what equipment this rocket unit

5 had that you were the komandir of around July 1995. Could you please

6 describe to us the various rockets, artillery, mortars, what have you,

7 that were available to you.

8 A. We had 57-millimetre launchers that were out of order because we

9 didn't have rockets that were in good order that could be fired. On the

10 truck, the truck was a 110 TAM, and there was a trailer on which the

11 launchers were mounted. These were 70-millimetre launchers. And for

12 those, we did have rockets, but only a small amount. These were

13 American-made rockets which we called Mickey Mouse, and they were

14 70-millimetre rockets. We also had a grenade launcher on a truck. It was

15 a TAM 150 truck, and these were 50 kilogram grenades. We had seven of

16 them altogether, and that was it.

17 Q. Now, operational at that point in time, July 1995, what did you

18 have?

19 A. We had 70-millimetre launchers and seven 50-kilogram grenades, and

20 that was it.

21 Q. How much launchers did you have? How many 70-millimetre launchers

22 did you have?

23 A. Two launchers of 12 rockets each. We used to refer to them as two

24 honeycombs, and these were taken off a helicopter.

25 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to use as a reference date July 6th as

Page 9163

1 the date when the activities around Srebrenica began; July 11th, as the

2 date when Srebrenica fell. Would you please tell us whether on the day

3 that the activities began concerning Srebrenica, July 6th, that you were

4 on duty on that day?

5 A. Yes, I was on duty every day.

6 Q. All right. Now, prior to the activities commencing on July 6th,

7 had you received any particular orders from anyone?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Now, on July 6th, were you aware that activities were ongoing

10 concerning Srebrenica?

11 A. No.

12 Q. At what point -- did you ever become aware that Srebrenica or the

13 forces that were within Srebrenica were being attacked?

14 A. I did become aware from the people in the communications centre

15 who told us that on the phone. But I didn't believe it. I heard about

16 it, but I didn't believe it. I didn't really take it seriously.

17 Q. Why didn't you take it seriously?

18 A. It was unimaginable for us that Srebrenica could be taken, in view

19 of the numbers of men we had and the number of people and soldiers who

20 were in Srebrenica.

21 Q. From your location, could you hear the activities?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Could you see the activities?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Were you asked to move your unit to any particular location at the

Page 9164

1 commencement of these activities?

2 A. No.

3 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to go through from the 6th to the 11th

4 and ask you day by day what your activities were.

5 On the 7th, did you receive any orders to carry out any

6 activities?

7 A. No. No.

8 Q. Did you carry out any activities anyway, without orders, on your

9 own?

10 A. No.

11 Q. What about the 8th? Is there anything different?

12 A. No. No, not until the 11th.

13 Q. Okay. So the 9th and the 10th, nothing.

14 A. Nothing, right. All the days were the same.

15 Q. Okay. Now, could you please tell us during that period, from the

16 6th to the 11th, we're going to talk about what happened on the 11th, but

17 if you could tell us from the 6th to the 11th whether any other units

18 showed up where you were located to perhaps assist in any way.

19 A. No. It's a small area.

20 Q. Did you receive any additional materiel assistance, rockets and

21 what have you, in the event --

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did they send any special personnel with some specialised training

24 that might assist in shooting off any rockets that might be called upon?

25 A. No. We were in a room that was perhaps nine square metres in

Page 9165

1 size. And we had a warehouse or hangar where we could park two trucks and

2 that was all the unit had.

3 Q. Did you spend those days any differently than you had spent the

4 previous two years or so from September 1993 to July 1995?

5 A. The day was the same as the previous one altogether. We played

6 cards; we drank a drop or two of brandy, had coffee, and so on.

7 Q. Did any officers from the Bratunac Brigade come by?

8 A. No, not any important ones. Some did drop in, lower-ranking

9 officers, to take shelter for a while or to have a beer or to have a

10 drink.

11 Q. Did anybody from the Drina Corps, any higher-echelon officers from

12 the Drina Corps or the Main Staff come by?

13 A. No.

14 Q. All right. Now, let's move to July 11th. July 11, I take it from

15 your previous answer, this day was slightly different than the 6th,

16 the 7th, the 8th, the 9th, and the 10th.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Could you please tell us what happened on that day.

19 A. On the 11th, and please don't hold me to the time very precisely

20 because I'm elderly and I've had an accident, so I'm quite confused about

21 some things. But I remember well that it was at 10.00 that the duty man

22 called me. I don't know what his name was. And he said that I should

23 send a truck with grenades to Pribicevac and that General Mladic had

24 issued this command.

25 Q. All right. Let me stop you here. I want to go step by step.

Page 9166

1 Now, where did you receive this call from? You said the duty

2 officer. Who are we speaking about?

3 A. I don't know. From the communications centre, somebody from the

4 communications centre, the duty officer, by I don't remember what his name

5 was, and I didn't even know the names of all the duty officers

6 there.

7 Q. But that would be from the Bratunac Brigade communications centre?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And the request was for you to send a truck to Pribicevac pursuant

10 to an order that had been -- that was being passed on from General Mladic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did they ask you what kind of truck you needed to send up there?

13 A. Yes, yes. The one carrying the grenade launcher.

14 Q. All right. How many trucks of those did you have?

15 A. One.

16 Q. What was the operational condition of this truck?

17 A. Well, it was in good condition. It was a truck like any other.

18 And we only had seven grenades from the beginning to the end -- not from

19 the beginning because the truck -- or rather the grenade launcher was

20 produced in 1994.

21 Q. But the truck itself functioned well?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, the grenade launchers, had you at least test-fired them at

24 some point in time from 1993 to 1995 to know whether they were

25 operational?

Page 9167

1 A. Yes. On one occasion, but I wasn't there. Two grenades were

2 tested. One exploded, and the other one didn't.

3 Q. All right.

4 A. Because these grenades were at the airport near the Drina where

5 there was flooding, so they had been in the water. And probably they had

6 got wet. But I'm no expert. I can't really tell you the real reason.

7 Q. All right. Did you send the truck to Pribicevac?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, along with the driver, did you send anyone else?

10 A. Yes, three other crew members.

11 Q. And did you -- did it have grenades with it, or did you just send

12 the truck?

13 A. Yes, the grenades were always on the truck.

14 Q. All seven of them?

15 A. All seven, yes.

16 Q. You didn't keep any for reserve?

17 A. No. We always carried what we had. They were always on the

18 truck.

19 Q. All right. Now, from your location to Pribicevac, how long

20 would -- how long of a drive would that be in light of the conditions of

21 the road and the terrain and the route that they would have to take?

22 A. It could have got there in about two hours approximately.

23 Q. Now, did you ever see that truck again that day, the truck with

24 the grenade launchers?

25 A. Yes, in the evening when it came back.

Page 9168

1 Q. What did you notice when that truck came back?

2 A. What could I have noticed? All the grenades were on the truck,

3 which means it hadn't been used.

4 Q. So can I conclude that you counted the grenades?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you speak with the members of the unit that you had sent up?

7 A. Yes. And did they give you a briefing or debriefing as to what

8 had happened up in Pribicevac?

9 A. They didn't see anything. It was far away.

10 Q. Well, do you know whether they had been ordered in any way by

11 anyone to carry out any activities?

12 A. Nobody gave me such an order. Let me clarify: As a rule, we

13 didn't shoot over the lines of our men. This was not secure. And the

14 soldiers had already set out, so it was unsafe to shoot over the heads of

15 our own men.

16 Q. Why would that be unsafe?

17 A. Well, these motors carrying the grenade had been taken off some

18 planes and had been damaged in the process. So sometimes it would happen

19 that a grenade would go off -- fly off in the wrong direction, and you

20 could never be absolutely sure what direction it would go in. And that

21 was the reason.

22 Q. All right. Do you recall about what time the truck returned to

23 the unit?

24 A. At around 2000 hours, something like that.

25 Q. Did you ask the men by any chance whether they had received any

Page 9169

1 orders or had made any contact with any officers up in Pribicevac?

2 A. No. They all went to Pribicevac. I don't know who they reported

3 to. But they came to Pribicevac, and they knew where the firing position

4 was approximately because somebody up there showed them. They directed

5 them. I don't know who. And they were there until they were told to go

6 back and that was all.

7 Q. All right. So this call comes in around 10.00. You send off the

8 truck after 10.00 or so in the morning on July 11th. Does anything else

9 happen on that day? Anything unusual that hadn't happened in the previous

10 two years?

11 A. Yes. At around 1800 hours, there was another call from the

12 communications centre, and an order was issued that the truck with the

13 launchers should go to the Zagoni position because as the duty officer

14 told us, from the direction of Pale, it had been observed that the Muslims

15 were not respecting certain agreements and that they were moving from

16 Bjeceva toward Bratunac and that we were to go to that firing position in

17 order to prevent a breakthrough of Muslims from Pale towards Zagoni and

18 Bratunac.

19 Q. All right. Now, do you recall with whom did you speak at the

20 communications centre?

21 A. No. I don't know who the man was. I knew all the people in the

22 communications centre by voice and by name, but I can't recall now who the

23 duty officer was at the time. Usually, when they were using the

24 switchboard, the operator would first speak, and I would recognise his

25 voice. And then he would switch over to the duty officer in the command.

Page 9170

1 Q. Now, this individual at the command centre, the duty officer,

2 whoever he was, was he in a position to issue you orders, to give you

3 orders?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. So was it his order, the duty officer? Was he

6 ordering you to do this, or had he received an order from anyone and was

7 just passing it on? Which of the two?

8 A. His words were, "The commander, General Mladic, is at a meeting in

9 Fontana. The agreement is not being respected. Go to the firing position

10 and prevent the Muslims from advancing toward Bratunac." It was something

11 to that effect anyway.

12 Q. All right. So this was not the duty officer's order, but he was

13 relaying an order that had been given to him from General Mladic, if I

14 understand you correctly?

15 A. I'm telling you what I was told. I don't know. The duty officer

16 said it was General Mladic's order. That's how it was transmitted to me.

17 Q. When you received that order, or this transmission of an order,

18 did you contact your own commander, Colonel Blagojevic, to see whether you

19 should carry out the order that had been given to you from the

20 communications centre?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Was there a reason why?

23 A. The duty officer was the person in command at that point in time.

24 I think that's how it was in the army, according to the chain of command.

25 Q. Now, did you relocate?

Page 9171

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Would you please tell us how long -- what preparations you made,

3 if any, before you moved to the position that you were told to go to?

4 A. The rockets were already on the truck. We got to 10 metres below

5 the firing position. We put 10 rockets in.

6 Q. Right. Let me go step by step.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. How much time did it take you to prepare before you could leave to

9 go to the location?

10 A. The rockets were on the truck, so we could set out right away

11 toward the firing position.

12 Q. How long would it take you to get to the firing position?

13 A. 15 or 20 minutes.

14 Q. Once you're there, how long would it take you to set up so you

15 could carry out any firing, if necessary?

16 A. Perhaps about 15 minutes.

17 Q. All right. Now, did you, in fact, when you go there, carry out

18 any firing?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. But I have to tell you before that, that it was then that I saw a

22 vast number of people in Potocari, and I was terrified.

23 Q. All right. We're going to go step by step.

24 When you got to that location, at some point I will show you -- we

25 will go through the map, but when you got to the location that you were

Page 9172

1 told to go to, could you please describe to us what you were able to

2 observe.

3 A. When I got to the location, I noticed a huge mass of people. I

4 didn't know who these people were. But we had heard that Srebrenica had

5 fallen, and we saw a huge crowd of people in the part of Potocari that was

6 visible from that position. And truth to tell, I was afraid of that huge

7 crowd of people because at that time in Bratunac, there were only women

8 and children.

9 Q. Okay. First of all, what is the distance from where you were

10 located to where the crowd was?

11 A. About three kilometres.

12 Q. Did you have any way of identifying who was in Potocari? Did you

13 have any binoculars?

14 A. No. You could just see the shapes of people. That was all.

15 Q. At that point in time, were you able to see the makeup of the

16 crowd, whether they were armed soldiers, women, children, elderly men?

17 A. No, no. At a distance of three kilometres, you can't see that

18 with the naked eye.

19 Q. But you could see that these were human beings?

20 A. Yes, yes, certainly.

21 Q. All right. Now, could you please tell us what you did once you

22 got there, after you noticed this crowd.

23 A. As I've already said, I said to shorten the range of the rockets

24 towards Djeco [phoen] because I didn't know where the positions were,

25 where our army's positions were and where the Serb soldiers were and the

Page 9173

1 Muslims soldiers were. I didn't know where anybody else was. And then he

2 fired 10 shells, 10 rockets, to stop the group from advancing to Bratunac,

3 the group that was on the move.

4 Q. All right. Now, could you please tell us whether the firing of

5 these rockets were in the direction of the crowd of people that you had

6 seen?

7 A. No, it's quite on the other side. The people were on quite the

8 opposite side.

9 Q. Could you tell us what the range of these rockets are. What sort

10 of range do they have?

11 A. Nine kilometres, 9.000 metres.

12 Q. So from your location if you wanted to hit that crowd, you would

13 have been able to with the range?

14 A. Yes. But I must tell you that it was not the kind of weaponry

15 that targets a target. It covers the terrain broad-based, disperses.

16 Q. All right. So in other words, what you're telling us is not only

17 did you have the range, but because of the way it hits the target you

18 could have easily hit that crowd of people?

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.

21 MS. ISSA: That's not what the witness had said earlier. That's a

22 misstatement of the evidence.

23 JUDGE LIU: I think so, yes.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll rephrase.

25 Q. You said, and let me quote: "It covers the terrain broad-based,

Page 9174

1 disperses."

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. I haven't asked a question.

4 MS. ISSA: I'm just --

5 MR. KARNAVAS: I can understand that the Prosecutor wishes to

6 obstruct, but there's no need for this. I'm quoting from his previous

7 answer, so I can lead him into the next question. It's not leading. I'm

8 making sure that there is no mischaracterisation as I was accused of doing

9 on the record.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well --

11 MR. KARNAVAS: It's an personal attack by the Prosecutor at this

12 point, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: I think you are prejudging the questions which have

14 not been put on the table yet.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: I think they're prejudging, Your Honour. I haven't

16 prejudged anything.

17 JUDGE LIU: Let's hear the objections.

18 MS. ISSA: I'm just wondering if Mr. Karnavas can read the entire

19 sentence, Your Honour. Because the first part of that was: "It was not

20 the kind of weaponry that targets a target." And I think that's where the

21 mischaracterisation occurred.

22 JUDGE LIU: I believe that's a legitimate request.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.

24 Q. Let me just cut to the chase. I'll rephrase. Could you have hit

25 that crowd from where you were standing given the range?

Page 9175

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay, thank you. I want to show you a map or part of a map, the

3 best we can do under the circumstances. This is D150. If we can put this

4 on the ELMO, it might need the technical assistance to sort of enlarge,

5 zoom and enlarge.

6 First of all, you notice that there is a date and what purports to

7 be a signature on what is being shown as --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- D150 for identification. Do you recognise that, sir?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What do you recognise it to be?

12 A. It's the firing position, and the point that was targeted roughly.

13 I made these markings and signed for them.

14 Q. Okay. Now, I want to go -- I'm told it's D151 for identification.

15 Now, if you could please tell us, show us, I should say, where you

16 were initially located, where your unit was located before and where did

17 it go in order to carry out the firing? And you will need to go to the

18 projector, sir.

19 Bratunac is further up. There you go.

20 A. Bratunac towards Ljubovija. That's where it is roughly. If this

21 is the Drina River, then it's round here. Bratunac towards Ljubovija and

22 Serbia.

23 Q. Perhaps you could put an "X" over there, something that we

24 overlooked to do yesterday.

25 We'll get you something.

Page 9176

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. Okay. And from the "X", where did you go?

3 A. Along the road towards Jelovica and Zagoni. Bratunac, Jelovica,

4 Zagoni.

5 Q. And that's reflected with the "1"?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Okay. What is the "2" that's reflected on this map?

8 A. The number "2" denotes the place that I was supposed to target.

9 Q. And it says there: "Pale."

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Why were you targeting that area?

12 A. Well, because it was from that area that the reconnaissance man

13 who reported to the general had been seen, that the Muslims were starting

14 along that road over Zagoni to Bratunac. So I shortened this distance on

15 my own, half a kilometre towards Zagoni, because it's all forest land.

16 Q. Why did you shorten the distance?

17 A. Well, I didn't know where our men were. And I wanted to stop

18 people from advancing rather than killing them.

19 Q. Now, did you notice from your location a mass of people or anybody

20 that was in the vicinity where you were targeting?

21 A. No, you couldn't see that. That was not visible.

22 Q. Could you please draw a circle and a "3", for instance, as to

23 where the crowd of people were located that you were able to observe with

24 your naked eye.

25 A. Potocari. Round about here.

Page 9177

1 Q. If you draw a circle --

2 A. The battery factory compound.

3 Q. If you could put a "3" around there so that we know that when we

4 have our record later that the "3" denotes where the crowd of people,

5 the "2" where you fired, the "1" where you fired from, and the "X" where

6 you initially started from?

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Could you please tell us, sir, about what time this was.

9 A. About 1800 hours, about 18.30 hours thereabouts.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't think we will need this exhibit any more.

11 Thank you, Mr. Usher. And again, it's D151 for identification.

12 Q. When you came back -- how long did you stay in that position?

13 A. Very short period of time. Just enough for us to pull out from

14 that position because we were easily visible to the other side. And since

15 those rockets had some sort of smoky gunpowder, when the firing took

16 place, a large cloud of smoke is created. So we were quite a visible

17 target to the opposite side. So what we usually did was to move away from

18 the firing position as soon as possible after firing.

19 Q. Where did you go?

20 A. Back to the unit.

21 Q. Did you report to anyone that you had accomplished that task that

22 had been given to you by the communications officer or the duty officer

23 from the Bratunac Brigade pursuant to what he claimed to have been General

24 Mladic's order?

25 A. No.

Page 9178

1 Q. Did you fill out any report to send in, for instance, to the

2 brigade so they could include this activity in their daily report?

3 A. No, that wasn't standard practice because I wasn't a military --

4 on personnel. I never did that kind of thing.

5 Q. Okay. After that, on the 11th, that same day, did anybody from

6 the Drina Corps on the Main Staff or the Bratunac Brigade come by and --

7 A. No.

8 Q. To discuss this matter?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Now, after that event, did you carry out anything else, any other

11 activities, on the 11th?

12 A. No.

13 Q. The day after Srebrenica fell, the 12th, any activities?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Any orders?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Any visitors from any commanders, including your own commander of

18 the Bratunac Brigade?

19 A. No.

20 Q. General Mladic didn't stop by?

21 A. No.

22 Q. What about General Krstic?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Now, the 13th, did you receive any orders?

25 A. No.

Page 9179

1 Q. Did you issue any orders?

2 A. No.

3 Q. What about the 12th? I forgot to ask you whether you issued any

4 orders.

5 A. No.

6 Q. The 14th, the 15th, the 16th?

7 A. No.

8 Q. What did you -- what did your unit do during those days?

9 A. Well, most of them went home. They were being let go. We had a

10 problem, and that was that when Srebrenica fell, all the mafioso types and

11 thieves got going, and the furniture that the police had seized and was

12 storing in warehouses, you had this -- and we also had an invasion of

13 fleas and we all got fleas. It was impossible for anybody to imagine when

14 I saw this. I found it astonishing. For example, when they took a couch,

15 a settee and threw it into the warehouse, you could see this cloud of

16 fleas coming up out of the sofa. You could see it with the naked eye.

17 Q. Okay. Let me ask some concrete questions. On the 12th and 13th,

18 did you go to Potocari?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you order any of your men to go to Potocari?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Do you know whether anyone came by to take any of the trucks or

23 any of the equipment to go to Potocari or anywhere else on the 12th or

24 the 13th?

25 A. No.

Page 9180

1 Q. Now, you had been the director of the Kaolin factory.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. During this period, did you maintain any offices in factory?

4 A. Yes. My office was in the central part of the building which was

5 separated from the army. You went in through the middle entrance.

6 Q. And what was there? What did you keep there?

7 A. Well, we kept computers there, all the accounting service was

8 there, accountancy and everything that we collected from the left and

9 right wings that were occupied by the army.

10 Q. Did you have personnel working at the time in the administration

11 building?

12 A. Yes. There was somebody who was unfit for military service - he

13 didn't have an eye, in fact - and he had the key. And my engineer who was

14 the deputy assistant of the staff command or whatever it's called.

15 Q. All right. Now, did you visit the headquarters or visit your

16 office during those days?

17 A. Perhaps, but that had nothing to do with the army.

18 Q. Well, from the 6th through the 11th and 12th, and 13th, do you

19 recall having gone to the factory, to the administration building for

20 you -- you know, to visit your own offices?

21 A. Perhaps, but I don't remember. Probably I did, but I just don't

22 remember.

23 Q. Do you remember whether you ever ran into anyone from the Main

24 Staff of the Drina Corps such as Mladic, Beara, Krstic, Popovic, Kosoric,

25 Jankovic of the Main Staff?

Page 9181

1 A. No. And I don't know those people. I had a separate entrance

2 which took me into the central part, and it was locked, and just those two

3 men had the keys, the ones I mentioned, from the entrance gate.

4 Q. Okay. Now, I want to go through a series of documents with you.

5 And I'll start with -- I believe this has been marked as 149 for

6 identification purposes. This is July 3, 1995.

7 I think we're one off on the numbers in the exhibit list, Your

8 Honours. We'll try to cure that.

9 Do you see this document, sir?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And it says here that it's dated 3 July 1995. It's a request for

12 equipment and materiel, and at the bottom, we see a Dragoslav Trisic. Do

13 you see that name, sir?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you know Major Trisic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. If you could look at this list and tell us whether on July 3,

18 1995, whether any requests were made by Major Trisic that would be

19 relevant to your particular unit?

20 A. No. There's nothing that was relevant to my unit here.

21 Q. Okay. Thank you.

22 Then we go on to the next document.

23 MR. KARNAVAS: This is P406 dated 5 July 1995. It has been

24 admitted already.

25 Q. If you can look at this, sir, is there -- and this is an order for

Page 9182

1 active combat operations. If you go to the very last page, you'll see the

2 name "Commander Colonel Vidoje Blagojevic." Do you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you had an opportunity to look at this document yesterday, did

5 you not?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Prior to yesterday, had you seen this document?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Is there anything in this document --

10 A. Or rather -- I beg your pardon. This is the order that I was

11 shown earlier, before I gave my statement, if that's it, if that's the

12 document.

13 Q. Okay. That was a statement you gave to the Defence?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. All right.

16 Prior to that, had you seen this document?

17 A. No, never.

18 Q. Now, is there anything in this document, sir, that you see that

19 relates to your rocket unit, the one that you were the komandir of?

20 A. Nothing.

21 Q. Okay. Thank you. We'll go on to the next document.

22 Let me show you what has been admitted into evidence as D131.

23 It's dated July 12th, 1995. Now, this is -- again, do you see at the

24 bottom of the page, it says "Major Dragoslav Trisic." Do you see that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9183

1 Q. And this would purport to be, would it not, a report to the Drina

2 Corps command regarding consumption of materiel and equipment? Does it

3 not state that, sir?

4 A. I suppose that's it.

5 Q. And the date is 12 July 1995, correct, of this particular report?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And if we look at the bottom of the page, we notice that it was

8 sent on the 12th of July, or at least that's what it would appear, at 1855

9 hours. Correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that would have been approximately - approximately - 24 hours

12 after the firing of your rockets or whatever they were towards Pale?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is there anything in this particular document, sir, that

15 concerns --

16 A. No. No, nothing.

17 Q. Okay. Thank you.

18 Now, I want to show you a rather interesting picture that has

19 come -- that we have obtained from a video. It played some prominence in

20 the Krstic trial. And it is P22. I don't believe it has been -- it

21 might -- and the ERN number is 0291-7767.

22 Okay. Could you please look at this document, sir -- or this

23 photograph. First of all, do you know -- do you recognise what's in the

24 picture? Do you recognise what it is?

25 A. It's a truck with the launchers.

Page 9184

1 Q. All right. Do you know the size of these launchers?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Does this truck look anything familiar to what you had, what was

4 available to you?

5 A. Well, all those trucks are TAM 110s.

6 Q. But what about the launchers themselves, the rocket launchers?

7 Does this truck look like it could have been one of yours?

8 A. Well, it looks like the truck, and it looks like the launchers,

9 but they're all similar, trucks and launchers and similar, so I can't say

10 whether it's actually that particular truck or not.

11 Q. How many trucks -- how many trucks did your unit have?

12 A. Two. One, the 110 and 150 TAM.

13 Q. Okay. Well, this photograph was shown in the Krstic case as

14 Exhibit 461. And during that time, he indicated that this was a -- and as

15 we can see from the photograph itself provided to us from the Office of

16 the Prosecution, this is an extract from the Petrovic footage, and it's

17 dated 13 July 1995. My first question is, July 13, 1995, did you issue

18 any orders for this -- for the truck that looked like this one that was in

19 your unit to go anywhere?

20 A. No. I did not.

21 Q. All right.

22 A. Just a moment, please. Had I issued an order, there would be crew

23 up on the truck. And here you see an empty truck. The launchers are

24 empty; the truck's empty. So I'm not quite clear. I don't understand

25 this, and I'm seeing this picture for the first time.

Page 9185

1 Q. Well, what else would you expect to see as well?

2 A. Probably on that truck, for my unit, there were radars [as

3 interpreted]. You couldn't see the launchers. That's why I very much

4 doubt that that's the same truck.

5 Q. Would it be pulling --

6 A. Not radars, tarpaulin. They were covered with a tarpaulin.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, not radar.


9 Q. Would the truck be pulling anything as well?

10 A. Yes, it would be pulling the launchers, the 80-millimetre

11 launcher, because there was an attached trailer. We didn't have any

12 launchers that were operational, not on the truck.

13 Q. All right. Well, this exhibit as we can see was used in the

14 Krstic trial as Exhibit Number 461, and I want to read a portion of his

15 testimony with respect to this and get you to comment on it.

16 It says -- he's being questioned by Mr. McCloskey: "Let's go to

17 exhibit, I believe it is 461." I'm reading from the transcript

18 page 4.866. The date is 28 June 2000.

19 And line 3: "Let's go to the next exhibit. I believe it is 461.

20 If you could put that on the ELMO. What's this?" And on the ELMO is

21 placed, or we have marked as D150, and you could see the date, some time

22 notated on the upper left-hand corner.

23 Answer: "In time sequence, this is off of the same video,

24 literally within a few seconds as the vehicles pass. This vehicle is in

25 front of the -- I believe in front of the armoured personnel carrier.

Page 9186

1 This is one of the two TAM rocket launchers that is assigned to the

2 Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade."

3 Question: "How do you know that?"

4 Answer: "The license plate, even on digital imagery or digital

5 show is unclear. But we know from, again, the Bratunac Brigade records

6 that there were two TAM rocket launchers assigned to the brigade."

7 And then the next question is: "All right. Let's go to the next

8 exhibit."

9 So here, Mr. Butler assumes that this is one of the two trucks,

10 albeit he cannot read the license plate. Is there anything that would --

11 in this picture that you can see that would at least help you to help us

12 identify whether this was indeed the truck that belonged -- the TAM rocket

13 launcher that belonged to the Bratunac Brigade on 13 July 1995?

14 A. Well, it should have a trailer attached to the launchers because

15 it was the main piece. And our truck had a tarpaulin.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. I didn't -- I don't know that our truck went out during those

18 days. It had a tarpaulin and some other attachment. That's as far as I

19 can notice. Otherwise, the trucks are all the same, and there were

20 launchers in several units. Outside the Bratunac Brigade they had

21 launchers.

22 Q. Okay. So this was not an unusual vehicle that only the Bratunac

23 Brigade had?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. And again, I'm reminded that this comes from -- this

Page 9187

1 photograph comes from P22, chapter 16, page 4. But I believe that's what

2 I'm told, so I'm putting it in the record. And I'm sure if I am

3 incorrect, the Prosecution will correct us.

4 Okay, thank you. Let me show you -- I'm reminded, Your Honour,

5 that this may be a good time to take a short break. I do have one other

6 matter left with the gentleman that may take -- that will take some time,

7 not too much, but some time.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Let's take a break.

9 We'll resume at 10 minutes to 1.00.

10 Yes.

11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, do you think we'll be able to have

12 any more witnesses today, or should we plan for the next witness tomorrow,

13 if anyone can estimate?

14 JUDGE LIU: I'm in the hands of Mr. Karnavas.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Here's our schedule, Your Honour, and we're making

16 some Herculean efforts to get as many people here as possible. In fact, I

17 had issued an order myself to get somebody on the plane, two people. But

18 we cannot unfortunately because of visa problems. This week, we will have

19 six witnesses. The next two witnesses, I believe, can be handled in one

20 day. I do have the following witness prepared, ready to go. So that's

21 not a problem. And I seem to have additional energy today that will allow

22 me to continue all the way through, even with another witness.

23 So we can go forward. But it might be better, and I don't know

24 how long the cross-examination will be, to just simply put the next

25 witness off for tomorrow since we can finish probably both witnesses

Page 9188

1 tomorrow, and that will be -- that's well in advance of the schedule. And

2 it might -- because we will not be able to finish that witness. So we

3 could keep the testimony all in one.


5 MR. McCLOSKEY: We're fine with whatever -- we don't expect cross

6 to be long at all.

7 JUDGE LIU: I see. So there's a possibility for us to start the

8 next witness today?

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Absolutely, Your Honour. We're ready. We're

10 ready. I mean, again, I leave it to the Court and we'll see how it goes.

11 But we will not be able to finish with that witness, cross and direct.

12 But I don't suspect that that witness will take any longer than, say, a

13 little bit over a session, direct and cross.

14 JUDGE LIU: I see. Yes.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I anticipate these other witnesses taking much

16 cross either.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Let's -- if we have time, we will hear the next

18 witness this morning. But if we don't have time, we have to leave him

19 until tomorrow.

20 Yes, we'll resume at 10 minutes to 1.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.17 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

25 Q. Mr. Loncarevic, before we go on to the physical premises of your

Page 9189

1 factory which was being used by the Bratunac Brigade as their

2 headquarters, at least part of the administrative building, I want to go

3 back to the actual footage where we saw this picture from, P22. And so

4 we've asked the technical booth to assist us in playing a short portion of

5 the Petrovic video.

6 [Videoclip played]

7 MR. KARNAVAS: You could play it back and...

8 [Videoclip played]


10 Q. Now, Mr. Butler, on 28 June 2002, noted on page 4.866 that that

11 vehicle was in front of the APC. Do you know what an APC is, sir?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. Did you see an APC in that videoclip that we just saw?

14 A. No. I saw a police car.

15 Q. Okay.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Perhaps we could play it one more time and maybe

17 they can freeze the frame when we get to the APC.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.

19 MS. ISSA: No, Your Honour. I don't have anything. Thank you.

20 JUDGE LIU: Okay.

21 [Videoclip played]

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay, let's stop. I apologise. My screen isn't

23 working, and I'm trying to figure this all out, and it's not terribly

24 helpful when you're mechanically challenged to begin with.

25 I'm pressing the wrong button. I apologise. If we could go

Page 9190

1 slowly backwards. Okay, if we could stop right here.

2 Q. Do you recognise this vehicle? Do you know what this vehicle is?

3 A. I know it's an APC.

4 Q. Okay. Now, if we could move it backwards a little bit. Keep

5 going. Keep going.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: This is relevant, Your Honours, for the following

7 witness as well, so that's why. Okay, if we could -- if we could stop

8 right there. Go further back, please. Okay, if you could stop right

9 there.

10 Q. Do you see that vehicle anywhere, assuming that this is the APC?

11 The vehicle that would have looked like the one you had?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Okay, thank you.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: That will be it for the video. I just wanted to

15 clarify the record with respect to Mr. Butler.

16 Q. Now, if I could show you what has been marked as D70 for

17 identification purposes. We have seen it before, but it has not been

18 tendered. It's D70 and D70.1, which is the text. If you could just look

19 at those documents first. Do you recognise these documents, sir?

20 A. Yes. The administration building of my company.

21 Q. All right. Well, how do you recognise it?

22 A. Of course I recognise it. I built it. I supervised the

23 construction.

24 Q. Now, if we could go through this document step by step so at least

25 we have a pretty good indication of what is where, what's the ground

Page 9191

1 floor? Which one of these? Which number?

2 If you could take a look at the diagram itself, that might help.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Okay. Now, is that the ground floor? I want to start at the --

5 A. No, this is the upper floor.

6 Q. Okay. Which one is the ground floor? Perhaps we can go to

7 where --

8 A. This is the ground floor.

9 Q. Okay. Now, if we could just keep it on the ELMO there so we can

10 all see it, what is number one? What does that stand for? What room is

11 that?

12 A. This is the room where operational preparation took place. Just a

13 moment. This is turned round. Where is the entrance? The staircase?

14 Yes. So one is the operations preparation, and two is where the duty

15 officer sat.

16 Q. Okay. Now, how do you get -- if you could use the pointer,

17 please, and show us on the diagram where you would enter on that side.

18 A. Is it here? Yes. Just a moment.

19 Q. Okay.

20 Okay. Can you show us where you would enter in order to get to

21 the operations room, sir.

22 A. This is where the operations -- you would enter here. That was

23 the operations room, and then this was the room for the duty officer. And

24 this is probably where the command held its meetings. And this here was a

25 bathroom or a toilet.

Page 9192

1 Q. Okay. Just for the record, you are pointing to an entrance that

2 was based at -- that is the left the room designated as "1."

3 Now, is there -- how do you get to the first floor from the ground

4 floor from this entrance?

5 A. You go up these stairs here. You go upstairs.

6 Q. Now --

7 A. To reach the command and Commander Blagojevic.

8 Q. Okay. I want to go step by step, so let me walk you through this.

9 A. All right.

10 Q. Hvala.

11 Now, is the --

12 MS. ISSA: Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.

14 MS. ISSA: Excuse me. We're just having a little trouble

15 following exactly where he's -- what he's talking about. I'm just

16 wondering if maybe he can be directed to point to exactly where the

17 command is, the duty officer. It's going quite quickly, and I don't

18 believe he's pointing very specifically to the particular area.

19 JUDGE LIU: I see there's no problem because all those rooms are

20 numbered. Could we ask the witness to mark on this map?

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour.

22 There's also an accompanying text that came in during the

23 testimony, I believe it was with Nikolic. It wasn't actually tendered,

24 but it was made reference to, just for the record, and it has been

25 provided to the Prosecution months ago.

Page 9193

1 Q. Okay. Now, sir, Mr. Loncarevic, the Prosecution has never been to

2 the building, so let's walk them through it. Okay?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, you go through the entrance. Please show us where the

5 entrance is and maybe put an "E" to it. So at least the Prosecution knows

6 how to get into this building.

7 A. [Marks]

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, you'd better say the Judges have

9 never been to this building. That's more or less like it.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well. I trust that wasn't mischaracterising

11 the evidence, though, but you're right.

12 Q. Now, could you please tell us where the stairway is to get to the

13 first floor. Where are the stairs from that entrance?

14 A. Here.

15 Q. Now, maybe you could put an "S" over there for "stairways"

16 or "steps."

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. Okay. Now, we see that -- in this hallway between "E" and "S",

19 there appears to be a wall. Is that correct?

20 A. No.

21 Q. You have on the opposite side of "1" and "2," is that a wall

22 separating?

23 A. There's a wall separating the two offices.

24 Q. Okay. Now, how would -- is that entire ground floor, can you go

25 from, say, "E," once you walk into that entrance, can you walk all the way

Page 9194

1 through to the other end of the building, the left side of the building?

2 A. No.

3 Q. All right. What would you have to do in order to go to the

4 opposite side of the building?

5 A. You have to go out and go right through the compound and go in

6 through the other entrance.

7 Q. All right. Now, maybe you can look at the next diagram and show

8 us where the entrance would be on the left side of the building.

9 Maybe you can put "E2" over there so we know that this is a second

10 entrance.

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Could you put "2" next to the "E" as well, so as not to confuse

13 us.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Between the first entrance and the second entrance, "E2," is that

16 portion of the ground floor, was that portion of the ground floor used by

17 the Bratunac Brigade during that period?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Which portion --

20 A. This was the dining room and the canteen.

21 Q. Okay. Now, which -- the dining room. Do you see a letter for the

22 dining room?

23 A. Yes. "K."

24 Q. What is "R"?

25 A. "R" is the canteen or the lunchroom.

Page 9195

1 Q. Okay. If we go all the way to the left, could you please tell us

2 what "3" and "4" are.

3 A. When the company was operating, this was used by a doctor and a

4 nurse. But now, it was the staff command in the army.

5 Q. Right. Do you know who was located there, which officers?

6 A. Milomir -- I can't remember his last name.

7 Q. All right. Okay. It's not important.

8 Now, let's go to the first floor.

9 A. Milomir Stanojevic, that was his name.

10 Q. Let's go for the first floor. For those of us who are from the

11 United States, this would be the second floor.

12 Could you please try to locate where Colonel Blagojevic's office

13 was located.

14 A. Number 7.

15 Just a moment. Yes.

16 Q. Okay. Now, if you wanted to go all the way -- well, why don't you

17 show us. Where is Nikolic's, Momir Nikolic, where is his office located?

18 A. It was upstairs. It was on the other one.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. I think it was 13.

21 Q. Okay. So that's on the opposite side of the building?

22 A. On the opposite of the building, on one corner, on the right-hand

23 side, there was Mr. Blagojevic, and on the left-hand side, all the way

24 there was Mr. Nikolic.

25 Q. Okay. Now could --

Page 9196

1 A. The distance, let me tell you, was about 80 metres from one end to

2 the other. The building is 80 metres long.

3 Q. Now, could you see through the hallway from one end to the other?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Why not?

6 A. Because I put a partition there, two partitions, that is.

7 Q. And why is that?

8 A. There were orders that partitions should be put there because

9 computers were kept there. This was my office in the central part of the

10 building, and the company archives, I mean, the factory, and these were

11 very extensive.

12 Q. Could you please tell us where the partitions were located. Could

13 you show us and just put a "P," for partition, "1" and "2."

14 A. Can this be "1." That was a partition. And on the other side, is

15 it visible here? Yes. "2."

16 Q. Could you please put a "P" over there. A "P," the letter "P" so

17 we know so as not to --

18 A. P2 or 2P?

19 Q. You could put either one, P1 and P2, 2P and 1P. You choose.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Who ordered -- who ordered the partition to be placed there?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. Why?

24 A. Well, simply, you know how it is when an army passes through a

25 country, a territory, then there's a lot of suffering going on.

Page 9197

1 Q. Okay. What do you mean by that?

2 A. Well, to separate it off because there might be stealing. So

3 people didn't need to see what was there, and neither did the workers need

4 to see what was there.

5 Q. Okay. Did any members of the Main Staff or the Drina Corps or the

6 Bratunac Brigade have access to that area that had been partitioned by

7 you, where you had placed your equipment?

8 A. No. The only person who could go in was the assistant and the

9 staff command, and he was an engineer of mine, and I allowed him to go

10 there because he had an office up there.

11 Q. Were there any exceptions made, for instance, during those days

12 when General Mladic was in town? I mean, he's a pretty big personality.

13 A. I didn't even know when he was in town.

14 Q. Okay. Now, what about the compound itself? Outside the building,

15 what access did the brigade have to the compound itself?

16 A. I would need to clarify. There was an agreement which I achieved

17 that behind the administration building, the soldiers could not pass

18 through. I had guards who were unfit for military service, and they were

19 there all the time while the army, the soldiers, were using the

20 administration building.

21 Q. Was there sufficient space around that area to park buses or

22 trucks?

23 A. They could park, but it wasn't allowed. And usually, what I

24 wanted was respected. Commander Ognjenovic tried to challenge this, and

25 so did Momir Nikolic. But the rest of the commanders, I don't know how

Page 9198

1 many there were in the Bratunac Brigade, there was Ognjenovic and Momir

2 Nikolic, Lieutenant Colonel or Colonel Nikolic. And they tried to rise

3 above me and walk all over the factory any way they wanted. They wanted

4 to go wherever they wanted throughout the whole compound, but I made it

5 quite clear to them that I was in charge there.

6 Q. All right. Now, the diagram that I showed you and that you have

7 in front of you that -- and again, I want to correct the record, it should

8 be marked as D152/1, with D152.1 the legend that goes with it, did you

9 assist in any way in placing those numbers and identifying those rooms on

10 this diagram?

11 A. This was done by this engineer of mine with my approval because I

12 knew about it. It was this engineer because he knew this better than I

13 did since he had spent the whole war in that command.

14 Q. But what about these numbers? Did you assist in locating the

15 various rooms, who was where, who was occupying which offices?

16 A. Yes. Yes. All the key places in that command, that was something

17 I knew. And these are numbers I put there.

18 Q. And to the best of your knowledge, does this diagram accurately

19 reflect the outlay of the administration building of the Kaolin factory

20 which was being used by the Bratunac Brigade at and around July 1995?

21 A. I guarantee that it's precise.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, sir. I have no further questions. I

23 want to appreciate -- I want to thank you for your frank answers. The

24 lawyer for Mr. Jokic may have some questions. The Prosecutor undoubtedly

25 will have some, and perhaps even the Judges. If you can be as frank and

Page 9199

1 forthright with them as you have been with me, I would most appreciate it.

2 Thank you, again, for coming to The Hague.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

4 Are there any questions, Mr. Lukic?

5 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, I'll have just a few questions for

6 this witness.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

8 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Loncarevic.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. I'm Branko Lukic, and together with Mr. Stojanovic who is not with

13 us here today I defend Mr. Jokic before this Tribunal. I just have a few

14 short questions for you to clarify certain points.

15 You told us that apart from your military service, you did not

16 have any military training in any formal terms. Is that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you ever read instructions on the work of staffs?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you know that the rules of service provide for the following:

21 That the duty officer is an organ of the internal service?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you happen to know that the duty officer cannot issue orders?

24 A. No.

25 Q. From your position, how often did you contact the duty officer at

Page 9200

1 the headquarters of the Bratunac Brigade?

2 A. I never contacted him. He did -- he contacted me when the need

3 arose.

4 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have no further

5 questions.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

7 Ms. Issa.

8 MS. ISSA: Thank you, Your Honour. I do have just a few

9 questions.

10 Cross-examined by Ms. Issa:

11 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

12 A. Good afternoon.

13 Q. Just to clarify a point, your commander was -- you were directly

14 subordinated to Commander Blagojevic. Isn't that right?

15 A. I thought that was the case. And I considered that to be so.

16 However, in the statement that I read in the papers by Mico Gavric, he

17 says that he was superior to me. I didn't know about that, to be quite

18 frank. I didn't realise that.

19 Q. Okay. So are you saying that you don't really know who you're

20 subordinated to? You don't know whether it's Commander Blagojevic or

21 directly to Mico Gavric?

22 A. I thought that I was subordinate to Commander Blagojevic. I

23 believed that to be the case.

24 Q. Okay. Now, you told us in the examination-in-chief that at some

25 point you were involved in firing rockets pursuant to the -- to this order

Page 9201

1 that you received. Did you see the artillery plan before you fired the

2 rockets?

3 A. What plan do you mean?

4 Q. You're not aware of an artillery plan that was in place at that

5 time?

6 A. No, no.

7 Q. Okay. Let's go to the 5th July order, which I believe is

8 Exhibit P406A for the record.

9 You see you have a copy there in B/C/S which is signed by

10 Commander Blagojevic. Yes?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. I'd like you to turn to paragraph 6.2. And if we can put

13 that on the ELMO, please. It's at page 4.

14 Now, that order at paragraph 6.2 states: "The 128-millimetre

15 Rocket Launcher Platoon will provide support from the fire position in the

16 Kaolin sector, at 0300 hours on 6 July 1995, it will fire four

17 projectiles, [50-kilogram air bombs] on the Potocari sector [The school,

18 the 11th of March factory, the Gracic hill, TT377, Kula, and Orici]."

19 And it further states it will provide further support at the

20 request of Captain Mico Gavric. Now, isn't that your platoon, sir?

21 A. The 128-millimetre launcher platoon, that's not something I had.

22 Q. Okay. But is there another rocket launcher platoon in the

23 Bratunac Brigade besides the one that you commanded?

24 A. There were 128-millimetre launchers, two of them, but before my

25 arrival. That might have been in 1994 when they were dismounted. And on

Page 9202

1 that truck, this bomb carrier was positioned.

2 Q. Okay. Well, this as you can see at the very beginning, sir, is

3 dated 5 July 1995. And in the paragraph 6.2, it says that the firing will

4 occur on 6 July 1995 at 0300 hours. Do you see that there?

5 A. Yes, I see that.

6 Q. And you see that it specifically refers to the rocket launcher

7 platoon?

8 A. Well, I'm telling you that there is no 128-millimetre platoon.

9 There wasn't that kind of launcher at that time.

10 Q. Weren't you the only rocket launcher platoon in the Bratunac

11 Brigade?

12 A. Yes. But I say again that there wasn't a 128-millimetre launcher.

13 Perhaps the commander didn't realise that. Forgot.

14 Q. You're saying that perhaps the command forgot that there was no

15 such platoon? Is that your evidence?

16 MR. KARNAVAS: He didn't say "platoon." He's saying that the 128

17 millimetre did not exist with his platoon. That's what he's stating. So

18 the Prosecutor, I know it's hard, but she should try to be fair with these

19 witnesses.

20 JUDGE LIU: Such platoon, I believe, is the 128-millimetre

21 launcher platoon. Maybe you should make it more clear, Ms. Issa.

22 MS. ISSA: All right, Your Honour.

23 Q. When you say, sir, that perhaps the command forgot, can you tell

24 us what you mean by that.

25 A. Well, the 122 millimetres is an enormous flame as far as I know.

Page 9203

1 Q. Okay. What the question is, sir, and maybe this may clarify it,

2 are you aware of any other rocket launcher platoon that is part of the

3 Bratunac Brigade aside from yours?

4 A. No, there isn't.

5 Q. So notwithstanding that the reference to the 128 millimetre,

6 doesn't this appear to refer to your platoon?

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection, it calls for speculation. Now she is

8 trying to make the gentleman to be a liar when in fact he's saying he

9 didn't have a 128. That's why he indicated that it wasn't part of his

10 platoon.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, on this issue, I think the witness has the

12 opportunity to answer this question by himself.

13 Witness, would you please answer that question.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have said several times that we

15 didn't have that type of weapon. It is "plamen and oganj." We had a bomb

16 launcher, and this -- whereas this 128-millimetre rocket launcher it's an

17 enormous calibre. It's a big-calibre weapon, and I have said already

18 several times that we didn't have one like that.

19 MS. ISSA:

20 Q. Okay. You did have 50-kilogram air bombs, though. Right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. And you also told us that you weren't -- you're not aware

23 of any other rocket launcher platoon besides yourself in the Bratunac

24 Brigade. Right?

25 A. I know there wasn't.

Page 9204

1 Q. Okay. So aside from that reference to the 128 millimetre, the

2 rest of that paragraph would appear to refer to your platoon, would it

3 not?

4 A. Probably.

5 Q. Let's go to the 6 July 1995 daily combat report. It's at

6 Exhibit P411A, English translation.

7 If you look at paragraph 2, sir, of the 6 July daily combat report

8 from the Bratunac Brigade addressed to the command of the Drina Corps, it

9 states that: "Firing support against the set targets was provided by

10 70-millimetre shell launcher." In brackets, it says: "[School in

11 Potocari, 11 of March factory, and the wide area of the village of

12 Potocari]." Do you see that there?

13 A. I don't know. I'm not familiar with this. I see it, but we

14 didn't target that. What date is this, please?

15 Q. You see at the top, sir, it says "6 July 1995."

16 A. What I remember is this: I just remember that on the 11th, that

17 truck went to Pribicevac, not -- the seven bombs it had, it had seven

18 bombs when the war was over. So what I'm saying -- what I'm telling you

19 now, I stand by, and it is the truth.

20 Q. You're saying you don't recall carrying out this order?

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Objection. He didn't say that. He said he didn't

22 carry out the order, not that he didn't recall, as if it was carried out

23 and somehow now he has a lapse of memory. There's a big distinction and

24 it's a total mischaracterisation of his testimony.

25 JUDGE LIU: Ms. Issa, you may rephrase your question to make sure

Page 9205

1 whether it's a recall or just carrying out the order.

2 MS. ISSA: All right. Well, I took that from his previous answer,

3 Your Honour, where he says, "What I remember is this: I just remember,"

4 and he continues. But I certainly can rephrase that.

5 Q. Do you remember carrying out such an order, sir?

6 A. I don't remember, no.

7 Q. Is it possible that you did carry out such an order given what's

8 contained in the daily combat report?

9 A. I don't think that is possible, no, to the best of my

10 recollection.

11 Q. Okay. And when you say "to the best of your recollection," is it

12 possible you simply don't recall?

13 A. I ought not to remember. But as I say, the only seven bombs that

14 I had, I handed over -- I handed back after the war, those same seven.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. I can't remember because I had a terrible accident in 2002. I had

17 major surgery on my abdomen. I had 11 broken ribs. And I was in a coma

18 for many days. I have an iron rod in my arm. But as far as I remember, I

19 didn't work with the bomb or rocket launcher at all. Grenade launcher.

20 Q. Well, maybe we can just move into -- go into another area. Are

21 you aware, sir, that in Vlasenica there was a corps artillery group?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you know whether the corps had -- the Drina Corps artillery

24 group had rockets?

25 A. No.

Page 9206

1 Q. Are you aware of any other group that had rockets?

2 A. Well, I did see those launchers round about, but I don't know who

3 they belonged to. I know that there were some -- the 57-millimetre ones,

4 I would see in Vlasenica. As to the larger rockets, I never saw them.

5 Q. So you've seen rockets in Vlasenica. Is that right?

6 A. But they're the small ones, 57-millimetre ones.

7 Q. Okay. And when was that?

8 A. That was -- I think we went to copy one like that, to copy that

9 launcher, and that's when I might have seen it, to make these devices from

10 the launchers. And that's when I saw them first and never again. I saw

11 one actually that the Muslims captured, seized; I don't know who from.

12 And then half a year later I saw it in Srebrenica. But these launchers

13 had been made, and you could see them everywhere on the battlefields.

14 Q. Are you aware, sir, that there were rockets that were launched --

15 into the enclave on the 6th of July according to the UNMO reports?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Are you aware that the UNMO also reported that seven rockets were

18 launched or were used by the Bosnian Serb Army on the 7th of July?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Are you aware that on the 10th of July, UNMO reported that eight

21 rockets were fired in the direction of Srebrenica in the morning?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And in the afternoon on that same day, are you aware that rockets,

24 according to the UNMO report, were launched into the town?

25 A. No.

Page 9207

1 MS. ISSA: Thank you, sir. I have nothing further.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

3 Any redirect?

4 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour.

5 Re-examination by Mr. Karnavas:

6 Q. I want to stick with the Document P406, start there. You were

7 shown paragraph 6.2.

8 Now, in this particular order, does it say anything about

9 70-millimetre shells being launched by your platoon, assuming that this

10 was your platoon, which is being insinuated by the Prosecutor?

11 A. What point do you mean? Which paragraph?

12 Q. 6.2, where it says "tasks."

13 A. Well, I can see here that there's a -- where it says: "Four

14 projectiles, 50-kilogram air bombs." That's what I see. And that's what

15 I had. I had the same thing in my unit.

16 Q. Is that the same as the 70-millimetre shells that are being

17 referred to?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Now, you said that you started, or the platoon had seven grenades

20 or seven launchers before the attack on Srebrenica. And you still had the

21 seven at the end of the events surrounding Srebrenica.

22 A. Yes. I claim and guarantee that to be true.

23 Q. All right. In spite of your accident. In spite of the accident

24 that you had?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9208

1 Q. All right. Now, did anybody come over with any additional

2 grenades during that period for you to use?

3 A. I don't know about that. No. At least, I don't know. I'm not

4 aware about that, of that.

5 Q. Did you have any connection in a sense of working with the Drina

6 Corps during those days?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you have any reason to be in Vlasenica and to speak with any

9 of your counterparts there that might have been working with artillery,

10 rocket launchers, or what have you?

11 A. When I mentioned Vlasenica, that was part of the job in 1994 when

12 we made the shelter for us so that we could come out of the trenches to

13 make those launchers. So quite simply, to see how they were assembled,

14 made and assembled on to the trucks. Nothing more than that.

15 Q. All right. Now, we know from testimony that Colonel Blagojevic

16 came to the command at or around May 25th, 1995. Could you please tell

17 us --

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, is this question within the scope

19 of the cross?

20 MR. KARNAVAS: It is. It's very much in the scope. If I can be

21 allowed first to ask the question, and then I'll -- I think from hearing

22 the entire question, it will become relevant. Well, let me lay the --

23 JUDGE LIU: Ask your question, please.


25 Q. From May 1995, May 25, 1995 when Colonel Blagojevic assumed the

Page 9209

1 position as commander of the Bratunac Brigade to the beginning of

2 activities with respect to Srebrenica, did he come over to where your unit

3 was to inspect and see what equipment was there?

4 A. No, never.


6 MS. ISSA: That is outside the scope of the cross-examination,

7 Your Honour.

8 JUDGE LIU: Maybe that following-up question will put us back into

9 the scope.


11 Q. It was being suggested to you that you perhaps were mistaken or

12 maybe even fabricating when you said that the commander didn't know about

13 you not having a 128, going back to paragraph 6.2, a 128-millimetre rocket

14 launcher platoon. And you said the commander might have mistaken. Is it

15 possible, sir, that because he was a new commander, he didn't actually

16 know what your unit had?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.

18 MS. ISSA: This is totally argumentative and leading. I mean,

19 Mr. Karnavas is not testifying.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes, Mr. Karnavas.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honours, the suggestion is that the commander

22 knew. We have testimony that he arrived shortly thereafter. I'm entitled

23 to elicit information as to whether the commander visited that unit and

24 knew what was available because perhaps there were some mistakes. That's

25 all I'm trying to get at.

Page 9210

1 JUDGE LIU: Well, since we have very little time available for

2 this sitting, we would like to hear the answer from the witness. Then, I

3 believe that we could wind up this redirect as soon as possible.

4 Witness, you may answer the question.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps Commander Blagojevic saw

6 those devices because they were handmade devices, for the first time.

7 Now, as far as I know, and I've known him since we were children, he's an

8 engineer's man. I know his entire training, how he grew up, and all the

9 rest of it. So he couldn't have known, if he was an engineer's man, he

10 couldn't have known what it was because I wasn't well-versed in things

11 like that either. I was seeing that for the first time, too.

12 MR. KARNAVAS: That's all I wanted to get out, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

14 Mr. McCloskey.

15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, perhaps it's a mere coincidence, but

16 we have over the last week have seen several times where there are efforts

17 going beyond the scope. This is a very serious rule in this -- in any, as

18 you know, because it requires us to try to anticipate that and keeps

19 opening the door back and forth. And that's clearly designed to leave us

20 with that, and I don't know if it was done on purpose or not.

21 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we need to be very strict upon that

23 particular rule because then it requires us to change our whole viewpoint.

24 And I think you can see we're trying to be as restrictive and as targeted

25 as we can.

Page 9211

1 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honours, I listened very carefully to the

2 cross. Doors are being opened. I'm trying to slam them. And I must be

3 frank: At times, I think we're having a finishing school in this

4 courtroom. I think this is well within the scope. A door was opened, and

5 I'm anticipating the closing argument that they will have. I'm entitled

6 to close that door. I'm entitled to give this gentleman an opportunity to

7 give a full answer. And then conclusions can be drawn from there. But I

8 take exception to what Mr. McCloskey's saying that somehow I'm trying to

9 open up these new areas and leave them hanging. If they feel that I've

10 gone into an area that is outside the scope, I welcome the opportunity for

11 them to reopen their cross-examination. I don't have a problem with that.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think this Bench has warned you

13 many times before that redirect should be strictly within the

14 cross-examination. And whether it's within the scope or not I think is

15 the decision made by the Bench rather than by you yourself. There's a

16 rule that no matter what kind of decision the parties must obey, that is

17 saying that when the Judges stands, nobody will sit.

18 I hope in the future, if you have any questions to ask, you must

19 do it in your direct rather than leave it until the redirect.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: I take --

21 JUDGE LIU: This is what I'm going to say at this late hour

22 because we're five minutes past the time. I'm not going to debate on this

23 issue with anybody.

24 And at this stage, are there any documents to tender?

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. D149, the request for equipment

Page 9212

1 and materiel of 3 July 1995; D150, the image from the Krstic exhibit,

2 which is P46, where we made reference to the content from Butler, from his

3 footnotes; I believe it's D151, the map that was marked by this witness;

4 D152/1 and D152.1/1, which are the blueprint and the legend that goes with

5 it that was -- that we brought in during I believe the Nikolic testimony

6 and the gentleman authenticated here today.

7 JUDGE LIU: Are there any objections, Ms. Issa?

8 MS. ISSA: No, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

10 Those documents are admitted into the evidence. I hope after this

11 sitting, the Defence counsel could work with the Court Deputy to

12 straighten out the numbers of those documents because we have different

13 numbers than the sheets you furnished to us at the beginning of the trial.

14 Are there any documents on the Prosecution side to tender?

15 MS. ISSA: No, Your Honour. Thank you.

16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

17 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to give

18 your evidence. When our sitting is adjourned, the usher will show you out

19 of the room. We wish you a pleasant journey back home.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 JUDGE LIU: The hearing is adjourned.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.51 p.m.,

24 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of May,

25 2004, at 9.00 a.m.