1 Monday, 17 May 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number
8 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
10 Good morning, Witness. Would you please stand up. Would you
11 please make the solemn declaration in accordance with the paper the usher
12 is showing to you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 WITNESS: DRAGOSLAV TRISIC
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much. You may sit down,
19 Mr. Karnavas.
20 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning, Your
22 Examined by Mr. Karnavas:
23 Q. Good morning, sir.
24 A. Good morning.
25 Q. Would you please tell us your name.
1 A. Dragoslav Trisic. My father's name was Stanko.
2 Q. Could you please tell us your last name letter by letter.
3 A. T-r-i-s-i-c.
4 Q. Mr. Trisic, July 1995, were you with the Bratunac Brigade?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Would you please tell us what position you held.
7 A. I was assistant commander for logistics of the Bratunac Brigade.
8 Q. Would you please tell us how long you held that position.
9 A. From November 1992 onwards.
10 Q. Okay. Now, before we talk about your position as the assistant
11 commander for rear services of the Bratunac Brigade, could you please tell
12 us where are you from.
13 A. From Bratunac.
14 Q. And what is the -- your educational background?
15 A. I graduated from the secondary construction school in Tuzla. I
16 attended a school between 1961 and 1965. After that, I graduated from the
17 school for teachers in Tuzla, also -- and I got an associate degree.
18 Q. All right. Now, did you do your JNA service?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What year was that, sir?
21 A. In 1971 and 1972.
22 Q. As part of your service, did you also attend the reserve -- or the
23 academy for reserve officers?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, after completing your JNA service, could you please tell us
1 your -- a little bit about your work background. What did you do?
2 A. After the compulsory military service, I started working at a
3 school, as a teacher. After that in July 1973, I became chief of the
4 staff of Territorial Defence of Bratunac municipality. I was fully
5 employed there throughout my entire career. In the meantime, I was also
6 assistant president of the executive committee for some three or four
7 years, and this was around the year 1980 or 1983. After that, I returned
8 to the Territorial Defence; first I was the chief of the staff of
9 Territorial Defence and then the commander of Territorial Defence of
10 Bratunac municipality. And I stayed in that position until the 1st of
11 May, 1991, when I was retired at the age of 44, after 25 years of service.
12 Q. All right. Now, as the commander of the Territorial Defence,
13 could you please tell us a little bit about that, the Bratunac
14 municipality Territorial Defence. How -- first of all, what are we
15 talking about?
16 A. The Territorial Defence is a segment of the armed forces of the
17 former Yugoslavia. The armed forces consisted of the JNA and the
18 Territorial Defence. In Bratunac municipality, like in any other
19 municipality of the former Yugoslavia, we had our Territorial Defence, the
20 Territorial Defence of Bratunac municipality.
21 Q. And what did that consist of?
22 A. In the territory of Bratunac municipality, pursuant to
23 regulations, we established staffs and units of Territorial Defence. At
24 the municipality level we had units at the level of detachment and some
25 units attached to the staff. And at local communes, we had local commune
1 units. And all of those units were under the command of the municipal
2 staff of Territorial Defence. We established those units, we equipped
3 them with arms and military equipment, and we trained those units.
4 Q. Would you please tell us how large was the staff of the
5 Territorial Defence of the Bratunac municipality.
6 A. As commander of this peacetime staff, I had four associates. I
7 had assistant for operations, assistant for intelligence, assistant for
8 organisation and mobilisation, and assistant for logistics. In addition
9 to that, we also had a few other associates who were handling the
10 equipment, who served as guards, and so on.
11 Q. And what was the ethnic background of the staff members of the
12 Territorial Defence?
13 A. We always tried to reflect the ethnic composition of the
14 population in the municipality. We always tried to have an adequate
15 representation of all ethnic groups.
16 Q. All right. Well, of the four associates, you know, what was the
17 composition, plus yourself, that's five?
18 A. Two of my associates were Muslims, two were Serbs, and I am also a
20 Q. All right. What was the relationship between the Territorial
21 Defence, the TO, of the Bratunac municipality with the professional army,
22 the JNA?
23 A. The TO was organised across a region. We had a regional staff in
24 Tuzla; they were our superior command. In the territory of Bratunac
25 municipality, we did not have any units of the JNA, so we did not have any
1 particular cooperation with the JNA.
2 Q. All right. Now, you said that you were the commander of the
3 Territorial Defence up until 1991. Were you mobilised in 1992?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that would have been with the Territorial Defence at that
6 point in time, as a result of the war. Correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. Now -- and that would have been the Serb Territorial
10 A. Yes, the Serb Territorial Defence, although I was mobilised by the
11 Ministry of Defence, its department, which was formed by the Serbian
12 municipality of Bratunac.
13 Q. All right. And what position did you hold when you were mobilised
14 in 1992?
15 A. I was the chief of staff of Bratunac municipality.
16 Q. And how long did you hold that position?
17 A. For a very short period of time, until the end of May 1992.
18 Q. And then what position did you hold?
19 A. There were various developments within the command cadre of this
20 organisation. The then-commander, Nikolic, due to problems left the
21 command, some new officers came and joined the command. They joined from
22 the JNA; they took over duties in the command and I was some sort of an
23 operative, an assistant of a sort.
24 Q. Now, when you say Commander Nikolic, we're talking about Momir
25 Nikolic. Right?
1 A. Yes, I'm referring to Momir Nikolic.
2 Q. Now, when the Bratunac Brigade was formed, did you -- were you
3 mobilised within the Bratunac Brigade immediately?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what position did you hold then?
6 A. I was appointed assistant commander for logistics, and I remained
7 in that position until the end of war operations.
8 Q. Okay. Now, prior to that position, did you at any point hold a
9 position within the security organ?
10 A. Yes, for a while in autumn 1992 I was assistant commander for
12 Q. Okay. Just intelligence or was that intelligence and security?
13 A. Intelligence and security.
14 Q. Okay. So you would have held the same position that Momir Nikolic
15 were to hold once the Bratunac Brigade was formed?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. All right. Now, if you could please tell us a little bit
18 about your function as the assistant commander for rear services. What
19 does that entail, in general?
20 A. Generally speaking, it involves providing security for materiel
21 and equipment that belonged to the brigade.
22 Q. You say: "Providing security for materiel." What does that mean?
23 Here at one point you're talking about logistics, now you're talking about
24 providing security for the materiel. What exactly you are doing as the
25 commander or the assistant commander for rear services? What do you do?
1 A. I said supplying materiel and technical equipment, ammunition,
2 fuel, food, clothing for the troops, and so on and so forth.
3 Q. Okay. So -- now, who was your commander, your immediate
5 A. Mr. Blagojevic.
6 Q. All right. Now, where do these materiel and technical equipment
7 and the ammunition come from?
8 A. They came via the logistics of the Drina Corps, one part of it.
9 And whatever we couldn't get through them, we obtained through Bratunac
10 municipality. Mostly this was food, fuel, and clothing.
11 Q. Could you please tell us the method by which you would make a
12 request and the supplies would come and what would happen once the
13 supplies arrived.
14 A. I would assess the situation. Based on what we had obtained from
15 the corps, I would make an assessment of the situation. And when I
16 realised that some of the things were in short supply, I would make a
17 request to the Executive Board of Bratunac municipality. I would list the
18 quantities of things that I needed, what kind of food, what kind of
19 clothing I needed. I would specify the quantities. At the level of the
20 municipality, there was a staff which was in charge of logistics for the
21 brigade. We would discuss things, and mostly my requests would be carried
22 through and we would agree which company in the territory of Bratunac
23 would supply us with what things. For example, the transport company
24 Vihor, which was the biggest transport company in the municipality, would
25 supply us with fuel and some other things that we couldn't get hold of
1 through other companies.
2 Q. All right. Now, what about if you had a request to the corps, say
3 for ammunition, what would the procedure be there?
4 A. I would send a written request according to what I had at my
5 disposal and according to the assessment of the logistics of the corps, I
6 would either receive the quantities that I required or less, depending on
7 what things the corps had at their disposal.
8 Q. And this assessment that you would make, would you need to get
9 preclearance before sending it off to the corps, or could you just
10 automatically make that request?
11 A. It depended on the situation. I could send my request directly to
13 Q. Now, when supplies arrived, was there a manner in which to keep
14 track of the supplies, what was requested, what was delivered, when it was
15 delivered, to whom, and so on?
16 A. Yes. We had very regular records on materiel and technical
17 equipment received and used.
18 Q. Okay. Well, how would you keep track of it? How were the records
20 A. We had documents. The so-called records of materiel which served
21 to approve using materiel and technical equipment from the brigade depot.
22 It was my assistant who prepared that, and I was the one who checked those
23 lists and who signed them.
24 Q. And who was the assistant, by the way?
25 A. I had an assistant for technical services, I had an assistant for
1 traffic and transport, and I had an assistant for quartermaster supplies.
2 Q. And just for the record --
3 A. I apologise. I also had an assistant for medical affairs and
4 veterinarian affairs, but subsequently the position of an assistant for
5 veterinarian affairs was abolished.
6 Q. Just for the record, could you tell us who those assistants were,
7 their names, if you recall.
8 A. The chief of quartermaster supplies was Bozo Momcilovic in 1995.
9 The chief of technical services was Marko, whose last name I can't
10 remember at the moment. The chief of transport services was the late
11 Pavle Loncarevic. The chief of medical services was Ljubo Beatovic. And
12 in 1995, the veterinarian services did not exist in the rear services of
13 the brigade.
14 Q. All right. Now, you indicated that there was a depot, I take it a
15 warehouse. Is that -- am I correct? Would there have been a warehouse
16 for the Bratunac Brigade for their supplies?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. First of all, could you please tell us where that warehouse was,
19 the location.
20 A. In the centre of town where the former warehouse of the TO was.
21 We took the warehouse from them. This is where we had our quartermaster
22 supplies. As for the ammunition, the depot for ammunition was also in
23 town, across the road in the facilities of the tobacco station of
25 Q. Now, what about for the fuel?
1 A. As far as fuel is concerned, we mostly used the Vihor transport
2 company facilities and their petrol station. And if smaller quantities
3 were concerned, up to 200 litres, we kept the supplies in the brigade, in
4 our warehouse in the brigade.
5 Q. All right. Incidentally, where were the records kept, the records
6 for materiel received and materiel consumed?
7 A. In the building of the brigade command.
8 Q. Where was your office, sir?
9 A. My office was in the Kaolin company building, in its
10 administrative building, on the first floor.
11 Q. Which side? The right, where the commander was; or the left,
12 where Momir Nikolic's office would have been? Which section?
13 A. On the left-hand side, across the corridor from the office of the
14 commander and the chief of operations' sector.
15 Q. All right. Now, for accounting purposes, when would materiel that
16 had been distributed be considered consumed, at what point in time?
17 A. When materiel is issued from the warehouse of the brigade and when
18 it is given for use to subordinate to units, we cross it out from the
19 records of the brigade because we consider that this materiel or equipment
20 has been used and it is no longer part of our supplies.
21 Q. Would you receive any documentation or verification from those who
22 had received that materiel, such as for instance ammunition, denoting that
23 it had, in fact, been actually used?
24 A. We had a document, a so-called materiel sheet, and we had two
25 copies of that. One we retained for our use, and the other, the person to
1 whom materiel would be issued, would take away with them.
2 Q. Okay. But let me give you a hypothetical, just an example. You
3 issue ammunition to a particular battalion commander. Would that
4 battalion commander at some point in time present you with some sort of
5 written verification that the ammunition that you had given him had been
6 indeed consumed, used?
7 A. No.
8 Q. All right. What about fuel? Was it any different for fuel, for
10 A. Well, for our regular activities we had precise calculations. As
11 to the quantities of fuel required by each unit, for instance, for a
12 period of seven days. So we had sufficient quantities of fuel. We would
13 issue them with seven-day rations of fuel. If we didn't have sufficient
14 quantities, then we issued quantities we did have, and then we would
15 subsequently supply them with the additional quantities of fuel that they
17 Q. Now, before we get into the events of July 1995, if you could tell
18 us --
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: That wasn't responsive to your -- to the question.
21 I think you asked if he gave receipts for the fuel. He said how he gave
22 fuel, but didn't whether or not or had to receipt or account for it.
23 JUDGE LIU: Maybe your question is not quite clear, Mr. Karnavas.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: That could be it, Your Honour, that could be very
25 well. I appreciate the assistance. Let me go back before we go on to the
1 next section.
2 Q. Once you distributed the fuel, did you get some sort of a written
3 accounting, some sort of a report that the fuel you had distributed had
4 indeed been consumed, and if so, how, under what circumstances?
5 A. No, we didn't, I didn't.
6 Q. All right. Now, as I said, before we get into the events of July
7 1995, could you please tell us how many vehicles, buses, trucks -
8 transport vehicles I'm referring to - did the Bratunac Brigade own as its
10 A. We had two buses being used by the brigade to transport its
11 personnel. We had two T-A-M, TAM trucks, 110 and 150. That's the make,
12 or rather, the strength of the trucks. We had two small delivery vans
13 that we called little TAMs, which were 2-ton vehicles. And at the level
14 of our basic units, we had tractors to transport the equipment and food
15 and the like.
16 Q. All right. Now, of these two buses, were they owned by the
17 Bratunac Brigade? Were these VRS buses that belonged to the Bratunac
19 A. No. These were mobilised buses that were mobilised through the
20 national defence department from the Vihor transport company from
22 Q. All right. What about the TAM trucks, were those -- you said that
23 there was 110 and 150 TAM trucks. Were they actually owned by the VRS,
24 the Bratunac Brigade, or were they mobilised as well?
25 A. They were the property of the VRS, the Bratunac Brigade. In other
1 words, these were typically military vehicles.
2 Q. All right. What about the two small delivery vans that you call
3 "little TAMs," 2-ton vehicles? Were they owned by the VRS or were they
4 vehicles -- were those vehicles that had been mobilised for the use of the
5 Bratunac Brigade?
6 A. One of these little TAMs was inherited from the Territorial
7 Defence, and the other delivery van, the other little TAM, was mobilised.
8 Q. Where was it mobilised from?
9 A. I really cannot recall at this point.
10 Q. Now, when the Bratunac Brigade needed to transport its soldiers
11 from one location to the other, assuming that it would not be doing so by
12 foot, you know, they would be moving from one location to the other by
13 foot, how would they get there? What were the means of transportation?
14 A. They would get there by buses.
15 Q. Which buses? Would the ones that had already been mobilised be
16 used, or would you -- would it require the request of further mobilisation
17 of additional buses from Vihor?
18 A. They would be transported by already-mobilised buses which were
19 already with the brigade. But if that should prove to be sufficient [as
20 interpreted], we would ask for additional buses from the Vihor transport
21 enterprise. Because we had an agreement with the ministry of defence that
22 we would be able to obtain buses to transport personnel. And after such
23 transport had been carried out, we would return the buses in question
24 immediately to Vihor transport company for their use.
25 Q. Just one area before we move in to July 1995, and that is the
1 issue of fuel. Could you please tell us what the storage capacity for
2 fuel that the Bratunac Brigade had, and I'm not speaking about Vihor, I'm
3 talking about the brigade itself, the VRS. What storage capacity it owned
4 in Bratunac, if it owned any?
5 A. We did not have any facilities of our own to store fuel. We just
6 had conventional barrels of 200 litres capacity, so we could store about
7 five to six such barrels. Or in other words, storage about a tonne or a
8 tonne and a half in the brigade storage facilities.
9 Q. What if the brigade needed additional fuel?
10 A. We also had an agreement with the Vihor transport company, and we
11 could store such fuel in the tanks of Vihor, provided, however, that we
12 would issue orders to the effect that that fuel could be poured into the
13 vehicles or the buses or we would be -- we would take, ourselves, several
14 hundred litres in barrels. We would then transport them to our own
15 facility. And then from that facility, we would then tank the cars in
17 Q. All right. Now, let's go right into July 1995. First of all,
18 were you on duty during that month?
19 A. Yes, I was.
20 Q. Now, I'm going to use a couple of dates as reference dates, the
21 first date being July 6th, which is when the events surrounding Srebrenica
22 began, and July 11th, the date when Srebrenica fell. All right. First of
23 all, let me ask you: Prior to July 6th, were you asked to make any
24 special provisions in light of the situations that were about to unfold?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Would you please tell us what those special provisions were. Just
2 in general, and then we'll go into the specifics.
3 A. Ammunition and fuel.
4 Q. Okay. Now, obviously if you were making special provisions, you
5 must have been informed as to what it was needed for. Correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. Now, perhaps this might be as good a time as any to go
8 into the documents. So -- and perhaps I'm going to start with a little
9 bit before July. And let me show you what has been marked for
10 identification purposes as D155. First of all, I believe you are being
11 handed a document with the ERN number of 00671801. Do you recognise the
12 handwriting, sir?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Whose handwriting is this?
15 A. It is mine.
16 Q. [Previous translation continues]... dilemma?
17 A. No dilemma.
18 Q. And the date, could you please tell us what the date is.
19 A. The 28th of June, 1995.
20 Q. Okay. Now, could you please tell us -- now, it states here, just
21 for the record, it states: "Requisition of TMS equipment and materiel."
22 And it's being submitted to the Drina Corps. Could you please tell us
23 what is this document about, dated 28th June, 1995.
24 A. This is about a requisition of ammunition for a 20-millimetres
25 anti-aircraft gun, an M38. To clarify, Captain First Class Bosko Vukovic
1 was my assistant for the rear in the Skelani battalion, otherwise he, too,
2 had worked earlier in the rear sector of the Srebrenica Territorial
3 Defence. So we were actually acquaintances from before the war and we
4 cooperated. We would supply with each other the lacking materiel and
5 equipment. And in a conversation that we had, I found out that they had
6 such ammunition for the 20-millimetre PAT, the anti-aircraft gun, which
7 was redundant because they did not have such a gun. So we agreed that
8 they would actually give that ammunition to us. In view of the fact that
9 the corps was actually the entity which issued the orders for such
10 issuance and transfer of ammunition, I applied to the corps for them to
11 approve for me taking over ammunition for the 20-millimetre gun from the
12 Skelani battalion, and the amount concerned was 6.000 rounds, bullets.
13 Q. Concretely, did this request have anything to do with the events
14 that were about to unfold with respect to Srebrenica?
15 A. No. No.
16 Q. All right. Thank you.
17 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, since this document has nothing to
18 do with the events in Srebrenica, I fail to see your purpose to introduce
19 this document.
20 MR. KARNAVAS: The whole purpose, Your Honour, is that the
21 Prosecution from day one has argued that this has been a joint criminal
22 enterprise dating way back, which is why I go back to July 4, 1994. This
23 is a document where, for instance, special ammunition is being requested.
24 The argument I anticipate is that even before the events of Srebrenica,
25 before the July 2nd Krivaja 95 order by the Drina Corps and the July 5
1 order by Colonel Blagojevic, preparations are undergoing for the attack on
2 Srebrenica. And what I want to demonstrate is the -- the dangers of
3 circumstantial evidence, because here's a document that circumstantially
4 we might say, yes, they're gearing up for combat by having the special
5 ammunition, but in effect it's just a coincidence of timing and nothing
6 more. And I anticipate they're going to bring it, so I'm doing a little
7 pre-emptive striking.
8 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may proceed. But when we are admitting this
9 document into the evidence, I think we have to consider the relevance.
10 Because this is a document introduced by the Defence, not by the
12 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand, Your Honour. We may not need to
13 introduce it now that we have an explanation because I'm suggesting that
14 it's not relevant at all, and I don't want to be in a position where on
15 re-direct I'm being restricted from going into this area. So I'm trying
16 to anticipate what documents the Prosecution may be relying on. I think
17 this is a good document that they could circumstantially and legitimately
18 say: Here is some proof. And I'm trying to demonstrate that there's a
19 difference between good circumstantial evidence and bad circumstantial
20 evidence. And this is obviously a good example.
21 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may proceed.
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.
23 Q. Now, let me show you what has been marked for identification --
24 actually has been admitted as P543. And I'm showing you what has come in
25 already as evidence. It's dated July 2nd, 1995. Could you please look at
1 it first of all and tell us whether you have seen this document before.
2 A. Yes, I have.
3 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether you had seen this document dating
4 back -- in July 1995?
5 A. Yes, indeed. I had to see it.
6 Q. Okay. Now, why do you say that, sir?
7 A. This is a document of the superior command of the corps command,
8 which is an order for active combat which was submitted to the Bratunac
9 Brigade. And in view of my role, of course I had to see it.
10 Q. Okay. And we're going to get to that. Now, is there anything in
11 this particular document that would be of interest or of significance to
12 you, in light of your position as assistant commander for rear services of
13 the Bratunac Brigade?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And could you please inform us which section might that be.
16 A. That is item 9 of this order which refers to rear security, rear
18 Q. That would be on page 8 of the English version, for Madam Usher's
20 Now, you say -- here it says: "Rear security." And from this
21 section here, can you help us out here, to what extent would this have
22 been useful to you or significant?
23 A. This was useful it states here that the following quantities of
24 ammunition and fuel were approved to us for the execution of the task as
25 well as other items.
1 Q. All right. And that would be with respect to all the units that
2 were to take place -- were to take part, I should say, in the -- in these
3 activities. Correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. All right. Now -- and I take it there is a section in this
6 particular document that specifically makes reference to the role that the
7 Bratunac Brigade would be playing in the upcoming activities?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. Now, let's go on to the next document and we're going to go
10 chronologically or at least date-wise. And now I want to show you what
11 has been marked as 149 -- actually, it has been admitted as 149. If you
12 could look at that. First of all, do you recognise this document?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. And do you -- again, you have the actual handwritten version with
15 the ERN number 00671762. Could you please tell us, first of all, do you
16 recognise the handwriting?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Could you tell us whose handwriting it is?
19 A. It is my own.
20 Q. There's no dilemma there?
21 A. None whatsoever.
22 Q. All right. Now, if we look at this, could you please explain this
23 to us. What is this document?
24 A. Yes. In view of the fact that we had been issued with a
25 preparatory order for the execution of combat operations and as we said in
1 point 9, certain items of technical resources, materiel equipment, were
2 approved for us. Here I made the corresponding request to the corps for
3 them to approve to me to be issued with fuel and ammunition, and I asked
4 for two motor vehicles, because we lacked those, as well as a thousand
5 pieces of dry rations.
6 Q. All right. Now, just so we have a clear record, the first
7 paragraph you state -- pursuant to your preparatory order, and then there
8 is a number of that. Correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And if we were to go to the previous document, which has been
11 admitted as P543, that should reflect that number, should it not?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. Now, just to make sure that we have a clear record.
14 If you could compare the two numbers and tell me if they are actually
16 A. The difference is that my document has -1, 156-1, and the Drina
17 Corps document has 156-2. That's the difference.
18 Q. So you're referring to a 156-1, where in fact the Drina Corps
19 document, July 2nd, is 156-2?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. But nonetheless it's your belief that this particular document
22 that you generated --
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I'll let him finish his question, I thank
25 Your Honour. I think I know what he was saying. But he was providing the
1 belief for the witness for him, which is -- which is leading. I also
2 believe we have that preparatory order, which I think is different. I'm
3 not absolutely sure, but I think we do have that preparatory number.
4 They're pretty good with their numbers and I think they got the numbers
5 correct, but that would be some help.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.
8 Q. Is this referring to the same document, do you know?
9 A. Well, yes.
10 Q. All right, now, let me show you some other documents, and please
11 keep that one there, that is D149 for identification. I want to show you
12 some other documents, a series of documents, that come under D166. And we
13 have an unofficial translation, the best we could under the circumstances.
14 And we will get an official translation. And when I say "unofficial,"
15 it's -- we have done it -- the Defence has prepared this translation.
16 Now, I'm showing you a series of documents, and they start with
17 the ERN number 00663544 -- actually, some of the numbers are a little off.
18 But in any event, if we could go through these documents one by one. Have
19 you seen these documents before, sir?
20 A. Yes, I have.
21 Q. And could you please tell us, first of all, what these documents
22 purport to be.
23 A. This document is, as I referred to it before, the so-called
24 materiel sheet, as it is indicated in the top left corner, according to
25 which we received materiel and equipment from the military post office,
1 military garrison, 7111 in Han Pijesak.
2 Q. Now, are these receipts, documentation of actual receipts that
3 would reflect what you physically received, pursuant to your request of 3
4 July 1995?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, could you please tell us whether you've had an opportunity to
7 review these documents and then to compare these receipts with your
8 request of 3 July 1995.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And could you please tell us to what extent these receipts
11 accurately and correctly reflect the request for equipment and materiel
12 you had made to the Drina Corps on 3 July 1995. First give us in general,
13 and then we'll go one by one, if necessary.
14 A. I noticed that the -- that they delivered to us ammunition that we
15 had not asked for in our request of the 3rd of July.
16 Q. All right. And where would that be, under which -- which kind of
17 ammunition did you receive that was not requested?
18 A. For instance, in this first document, the 30-millimetre bullets,
19 we got 240 of those, and that is ammunition for the anti-aircraft gun, the
20 so-called Praga gun, which anti-aircraft gun we did not have. And also,
21 on the same page the 100-millimetre bullet, 30 pieces, that is ammunition
22 for a tank, and we had no -- we didn't have such a tank. Also in the
23 subsequent pages, the other documents, for instance, the document marked
24 D00633542 [as interpreted]. Under serial number 3, they added
25 100-millimetre PF bullet, we received 30 pieces, 30 rounds. Other -- it
1 is written: According to agreement, Major Basevic. So this is something
2 which was inserted subsequently, obviously. And the likewise, we did not
3 require this kind of ammunition. So that means it was on the basis of
4 some other, somebody else's request, that they actually decided to also
5 deliver this type of ammunition to the Bratunac Brigade.
6 Q. All right. Do you know what happened to that ammunition that was
7 not requested but was delivered?
8 A. I assumed that this ammunition was forwarded to some other unit
9 that participated in the operations.
10 Q. Okay. Just for the record, the previous reference to the 100
11 bullets by Mr. Basevic, Major Basevic, that would be on 166.8, D166.8, at
12 the bottom.
13 All right. Now, of the ammunition that you did request, did all
14 of it arrive pursuant to the receipts that we have here at least?
15 A. No, it didn't arrive, not all of it.
16 Q. Now, could you go down the list, could you go down the list of the
17 requests that you made and tell us what was asked and what was received.
18 A. For example, we didn't receive fuel. Our request was for 5.000
19 litres of oil and MB petrol, 2.000 litres. We didn't receive the
20 quantities that we requested. We also didn't receive vehicles, and we
21 didn't receive dry rations. Now, as far as the ammunition is concerned, I
22 would have to make a comparison, but I can say that we received
23 approximate quantities. Some of the things that we requested we got more
24 of, and some of the others that we requested we received less of.
25 Q. All right. Well, let me go back to the fuel. You had -- it says
1 here that you made a request for 5.000 litres of diesel. Correct?
2 A. Yes. Correct.
3 Q. Of that, how much is reflected in those receipts that you
5 A. I don't have this receipt here, but I believe that we received a
6 lot less, maybe less than 1 tonne of the diesel. And I'm not sure about
7 the MB petrol, but I believe that it was anything between 200 and 400
8 litres. I don't have the document in front of me that I could consult.
9 Q. All right. Well, if you could look at -- at the top you will see
10 D166.6. It's handwritten.
11 A. Yes, I apologise. Yes, I do have it. Yeah.
12 Q. Okay. Now, how much fuel, diesel, does this reflect that you
13 actually received? You made a request for 5.000; how much did you
15 A. 800 litres.
16 Q. Okay. All right. And what about petrol? If you could look at
17 166.7. We know that you requested 2.000 litres of petrol.
18 A. Yes. We received 400 litres. And you can see from this document
19 that they also added bullets for 40 pieces of bullets. And this is very
20 unusual on a sheet reflecting fuel to have ammunition as well.
21 Q. All right. Now, did you ever -- did you notice that you were
22 receiving ammunition that you had not requested?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. You noticed that back then? I'm talking about July 3rd or
25 thereafter, when these deliveries were actually made.
1 A. At that moment, I didn't pay too much attention to the ammunition
2 that arrived. The most important thing was that it did arrive. I didn't
3 really pay too much attention to whether the ammunition merely followed my
4 requests or not.
5 Q. All right. Let's go on to the next set of documents, the next
6 documents, and let me show you what has been entered in as an exhibit as
7 P406. Do you recall ever seeing this document, sir?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would you please tell us what this document is.
10 A. This is an order for active combat operations of the Bratunac
12 Q. Now, is there any section in this particular order that directly
13 relates to your section?
14 A. Yes. Item 11, logistics support.
15 Q. That would be page 6, Madam Usher, in English.
16 Now, could you please look at these items. First of all, do you
17 know who came up with the actual items and figures?
18 A. I'm sorry. I didn't understand your question, sir.
19 Q. All right. Could you please tell us in this -- on this list under
20 11, logistical support, who made -- who came up with this list of items?
21 A. I did.
22 Q. All right. And on what basis did you formulate this list?
23 A. On the basis of the assessment of materiel and equipment needed
24 for combat operations.
25 Q. All right. Now, if we look at -- if we go down the list, first of
1 all, number one talks about ammunition. And it says --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In the first part: "Infantry weapons: Two combat sets (for
4 active combat)." What does that mean, sir?
5 A. Means two infantry weapons, combat sets, I forget what it was, but
6 I believe it's 2 times 150 bullets for infantry weapons for active combat.
7 Q. And -- so would that mean that the entire Bratunac Brigade, every
8 soldier received 150 bullets for this operation?
9 A. No.
10 Q. And how many of them within the Bratunac Brigade would have
11 received this amount?
12 A. Only the troops which were engaged in attacks.
13 Q. All right. And if we look at this particular order, can you tell
14 us, at least to your understanding, which troops are we talking about?
15 Which units within the Bratunac Brigade?
16 A. Under 5 five here. It says: Auxiliary forces will carry out
17 attack on the axis of Pribicevac, and those are the auxiliary units of the
18 3rd Infantry Battalion.
19 Q. All right. So, to your understanding, only those units are to
20 receive any additional ammunition, other than what all the other troops
21 already have in their possession?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. Then if we talk -- then if we go down the list you say:
24 "Artillery and mortars: One combat set." What are we talking about?
25 A. It means that the artillery weapons and pieces, everybody who had
1 them would receive one combat set of appropriate ammunition.
2 Q. Do you know how many that might be?
3 A. I wouldn't be sure at this moment.
4 Q. Then if we go down it says: "T-34 tank: 0.5 combat set." A half
5 a set.
6 Was there a tank within the Bratunac Brigade, a T-34, to your
8 A. As far as I know at that time we didn't have a T-34 tank.
9 Q. When you say "at that time," we're speaking of July 1995?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. Then we have anti-armour weapons and anti-aircraft
12 weapons. What exactly are we speaking about?
13 A. Anti-aircraft weapons, that is a 20-millimetre gun, and some
14 anti-armour weapons, that means hand-held rocket launchers.
15 Q. Would you please tell us what -- it says: "0.5 combat set." How
16 many units are we talking about, how many pieces?
17 A. I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question again.
18 Q. Let me just rephrase it. Are these large amounts that you're
19 making -- that you're requesting, to your understanding?
20 A. No, these are not large amounts.
21 Q. All right. Now, let's go to the fuel. Under fuel you say:
22 "Combat vehicles: 0.5 tank of fuel." How much fuel are we talking about?
23 A. Those were minimum quantities, because we didn't have combat
24 vehicles. And even for non-combat vehicles, we didn't request a lot
25 because there were no combat movements carried out by non-combat vehicles.
1 Q. All right. But it says here half a tank, 0.5 tank of fuel. What
2 does that mean? Does that mean half a tank in the vehicle itself or does
3 this reflect something else?
4 A. Half a tank of the vehicle itself.
5 Q. Okay. So the vehicle -- the vehicles -- the combat vehicles would
6 not even have a full tank of fuel in them?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And the same amount goes for non-combat vehicles?
9 A. Correct again.
10 Q. All right. And then if we look at number 3, you say food -- here
11 it notes that it's: "Cooked food until the beginning of combat
12 operations ..."
13 Could you please explain that to us a little bit.
14 A. In view of the fact that according to the order, our troops would
15 mostly secure the line, which means that they would secure the lines
16 reached. That meant that we could prepare cooked food for them.
17 Q. All right. And just one last question before we perhaps take a
18 break. On number 4 it says here: "Every battalion shall develop a station
19 for logistical support of own forces and provide for the consumption of
20 the above-mentioned quantities of materiel supplies."
21 What does that mean?
22 A. This means that every battalion on the basis of the delivered
23 quantities of ammunition, fuel, and food would have to distribute those
24 according to standards, which means that they would have their own
25 logistical support and distribution within their unit.
1 Q. All right. And would they then provide you with some sort of
2 verification as to what was actually consumed, or once it's distributed,
3 it's outside your hands?
4 A. Once we delivered to our subordinate units, we lost control of it.
5 And they would distribute those according to their own decision.
6 Q. Would you get verification that it was actually distributed and
7 consumed, in other words, a receipt back saying on this date or during
8 this period we consumed, indeed, what you provided us, so at least you
9 could keep track for your own accounting?
10 A. No, we did not receive any confirmation of that.
11 Q. Thank you, sir.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, this might be a good point.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll take a break. And we'll resume at 10
14 minutes to 11.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas, please continue.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
19 Q. Sir, let me -- before I go into the next document, would you
20 please tell us -- well, let me focus your attention on July 6th and all
21 the way to the 11th. Could you please tell us during that period of time,
22 were any special requests made of you in light of the ongoing activities
23 at the time?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did -- where were you during that period, from the 6th, the 7th,
1 the 8th, the 9th, the 10th, the 11th, where were you physically located?
2 A. In the command of the Bratunac Brigade.
3 Q. Were you ever asked to move or relocate your rear services to be
4 closer to the battle activities that were going on?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Now, during that period of time, do you recall whether you had any
7 particular contacts with your commander, Colonel Blagojevic?
8 A. Yes, I did have.
9 Q. Okay. What was the nature of the contact that you had with him on
10 the 6th of July, then?
11 A. On the 6th of July, I don't recall having had any particular
12 contacts with him on that day. I can't remember.
13 Q. All right. What about the 7th?
14 A. The commander was mostly in the Pribicevac sector, performing his
15 tasks there.
16 Q. Okay. Well, do you recall whether your commander ever contacted
17 you from Pribicevac requesting you to provide any assistance in light of
18 your position, the period of the 6th to the 11th?
19 A. No, no, I can't remember.
20 Q. All right. Did you ever visit any of the front lines during that
21 period or any of the --
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Okay. Could you please tell us where you went and when?
24 A. I believe that it was on the 9th or on the 10th that I went to the
25 Pribicevac sector, which belonged to the forward command post of the Drina
1 Corps. I went with the president of the executive committee,
2 Mr. Davidovic.
3 Q. All right. And could you please tell us what were the reasons for
4 going there, at whose request were you going there?
5 A. President Davidovic asked me to accompany him in his visit to the
6 command of the Drina Corps in the Pribicevac sector.
7 Q. As far as you were concerned with respect to you yourself, was
8 this a formal trip? Were you there on any particular capacity?
9 A. The president wanted to visit the corps command, and I went there
10 just to get an overview of the situation, possibly to control the
11 logistical support of the 3rd Battalion and how it functioned.
12 Q. All right. And did you meet with anybody of the 3rd Battalion to
13 see whether they needed your logistical support?
14 A. I met with the officers in charge of the logistics of the 3rd
16 Q. Where were they located?
17 A. They were there in the Pribicevac sector.
18 Q. Who are they?
19 A. Who they were?
20 Q. Yes. Yeah. Do you have their names?
21 A. One of them was Mr. Davidovic's son.
22 Q. Okay. And what, if anything, did you learn?
23 A. The situation was just regular. There were no special problems in
24 terms of logistical support.
25 Q. Were any requests made of you?
1 A. No.
2 Q. How long were you up there?
3 A. An hour, or two hours at the most.
4 Q. Where were you that entire time?
5 A. I was there around the command post.
6 Q. All right. Well, did you walk around to -- I believe there's a
7 location up there called Kula. Did you go there?
8 A. No, no. I didn't go up there.
9 Q. All right. Did you go to the trenches to see how the men were
11 A. No, I did not go to the front line. I was in the vicinity of the
12 command all the time, maybe a couple hundred metres away from it.
13 Q. Did you see your commander, Blagojevic, there?
14 A. I can't recall having seen him there.
15 Q. Do you recall seeing anyone -- any higher-echelon officers from
16 the corps or from the Main Staff?
17 A. General Gvero from the Main Staff of the VRS was there. And I
18 went to see General Gvero, together with Mr. Davidovic. We had a coffee
19 or some drinks. I can't remember exactly, and we talked for a while about
20 the current problems.
21 Q. What were the current problems that you talked about?
22 A. Well, you know, the activities that were being carried out around
24 Q. All right. Now, General Gvero from the Main Staff, do you know
25 what his particular function is there?
1 A. He was the assistant for morale in Mladic's Main Staff.
2 Q. All right. Did you see General Krstic there by any chance?
3 A. I don't remember. I don't think I saw him there.
4 Q. Now, do you know Bozo Momcilovic? I think I'm pronouncing it
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. First of all, who is this gentleman?
8 A. Bozo Momcilovic was the chief of the quartermaster corps in the
9 Bratunac Brigade.
10 Q. Did you see him up there at that time?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Now, what was he doing up there in Pribicevac?
13 A. He had been assigned to be the officer in charge of the rear
14 sector at the Pribicevac forward command post by an order of the command.
15 He was appointed assistant for the rear, i.e., the commanding officer in
16 the logistics sector of the corps and the forward command post.
17 Q. At that point -- prior to that -- if I understand your answer,
18 he's a member of the Bratunac Brigade?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. Okay. At that point in time, was he with the Bratunac Brigade or
21 had he been re-assigned?
22 A. Well, he was re-assigned and he discharged obligations at the rear
23 sector of the Drina Corps, at the forward command post.
24 Q. At that point in time, who would have been his commander?
25 A. Colonel Acamovic.
1 Q. All right. Now, who ordered him to be with the corps?
2 A. Colonel Acamovic issued that order.
3 Q. Did he issue that order directly to him or do you know whether
4 Colonel Acamovic went to Colonel Blagojevic, the commander of the Bratunac
5 Brigade, to seek permission whether he could use this gentleman or do you
6 know whether he came to you?
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That's leading, offering all kinds of
9 alternatives. The question can be simply asked.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas, you may rephrase your question.
11 MR. KARNAVAS:
12 Q. Do you know whether Colonel Acamovic went to Colonel Blagojevic to
13 ask permission to use this gentleman, who clearly was working in your
14 sector to be with the Drina Corps?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Did Colonel Acamovic come to you to ask permission from you
17 whether -- to you -- he could use Bozo Momcilovic to be working for the
18 Drina Corps up there in Pribicevac?
19 A. Before the start of the combat operations, Bozo Momcilovic went to
20 the official corps command at Vlasenica. There Colonel Acamovic handed to
21 me an order on the engagement in the rear sector in the Pribicevac sector.
22 After Momcilovic returned, he informed me of this order so that I was made
23 aware of the role that he was to play in the rear sector of the corps.
24 Q. All right. I just want to clarify something here. Now, you said
25 that Colonel Acamovic handed you an order of the engagement in Vlasenica.
1 First of all -- I want to go step by step. Did you go to Vlasenica with
2 Bozo Momcilovic, yes or no?
3 A. No, I did not.
4 Q. So Bozo Momcilovic went by himself?
5 A. Yes, he did.
6 Q. All right. And it was at that -- it was while he was there when
7 he was given this order, it was passed on in order for you to -- from
8 Colonel Acamovic for you?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. Now, before receiving this order from Colonel Acamovic that was
11 being delivered by Bozo Momcilovic, could you please tell us whether
12 Colonel Acamovic contacted you to receive permission from you on whether
13 he could issue such an order or should issue such an order.
14 A. No, he did not.
15 Q. All right. While you were up in Pribicevac, did you have much --
16 did you have any contact with Bozo Momcilovic? I know you saw him, but
17 did you speak with him?
18 A. No, I didn't.
19 Q. Do you know at what point in time Mr. Momcilovic returned back to
20 the Bratunac Brigade, as a member of the Bratunac Brigade?
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection as to foundation. There's been no
23 suggestion that this person was ever not a member of the Bratunac Brigade.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll clarify it. I thought --
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: -- it was evidently clear from the record.
2 Q. During that point in time when Acamovic on his own, without asking
3 you for permission to take away one of your own men and have him working
4 under the Drina Corps, okay? Who was he working for? Was he working for
5 the Bratunac Brigade or was he working for the Drina Corps?
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. Leading and argumentive. He's arguing
8 his case through this witness; that's not proper for direct.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think somehow the witness has
10 already answered the question before. You may repeat your previous
11 question to this witness.
12 MR. KARNAVAS:
13 Q. When Mr. Momcilovic was working under Acamovic, was he taking
14 orders from you or was he taking orders from Colonel Acamovic? Who was
15 his superior officer?
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That's asked and answered. We know
17 who he's under the command of, but that's much different than him not
18 being a member of the Bratunac Brigade. These are important distinctions,
19 and that's why I'm objecting.
20 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think the issue we are going to solve is the
21 resubordination issue.
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Precisely.
23 JUDGE LIU: And the problem is that we have to find a way to put
24 the question in a correct way.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Let me try again, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm -- just for the record, I'm very patient today.
3 I'm willing to spend the next 45 minutes on this particular issue.
4 Q. Sir, when Acamovic issued that order, taking away your resource,
5 was this gentleman working under your command or was he working under
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That's my whole point: Taking away
9 the resource, that's an argument. The Prosecution's argument is that one
10 of the reasons you resubordinate is so that you can take advantage of that
11 resource in the Bratunac Brigade so they can work together. This idea
12 that there's this taking away or separation or complete -- it's
13 argumentive. He's free to argue it, but when it's implicit in his
14 questions that's leading and not proper for direct.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll rephrase again. I'll rephrase, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
17 MR. KARNAVAS:
18 Q. At that time when Acamovic issued that order, were you able to
19 control and direct Mr. Momcilovic?
20 A. No, I was not.
21 Q. Please repeat that again for Prosecution.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. And I hope he doesn't
23 take it out on the witness. He's now shouting at the witness.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not shouting at the witness, Your Honour. This
25 is so ridiculous on the part of the Prosecution. His own witness,
1 Butler - and I have his transcript over here - has talked about this,
2 about the functional relationships, about resubordination, and I find it
3 utterly ridiculous that these objections are being made.
4 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, the transcript correctly recorded what
5 the witness said. There's no need to repeat it again.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, perhaps I was hoping that the Prosecution
7 would listen, because obviously we've covered this area, we've covered
8 this ground, on many times.
9 Q. Sir, during that period of time from the 6th and onwards, where
10 was this gentleman located?
11 A. In the Pribicevac sector.
12 Q. Who was giving him orders?
13 A. Colonel Acamovic was.
14 Q. Did Colonel Acamovic receive your permission to give this
15 gentleman any orders before issuing the orders to Mr. Momcilovic?
16 A. No.
17 Q. At what point in time did this subordination to the Drina Corps
18 end with respect to Mr. Momcilovic?
19 A. I cannot recall with precision at which exact point in time.
20 Q. All right. Now, at the -- for this period, from the 6th to the
21 12th, did Mr. Momcilovic prepare any written reports for you so at least
22 you would know what he was doing, what orders he had carried out, while he
23 was working for Colonel -- or under, I should say, Colonel Acamovic of the
24 Drina Corps?
25 A. No, he didn't.
1 Q. All right. Now, let me show you what has been marked as D131.
2 This has been admitted. First of all, do you recall seeing this document?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Incidentally, have you had a chance to look at your statement, the
5 one that you gave after Mr. Blagojevic was indicted and arrested back on
6 26 November 2001? Have you had a chance to look at the statement?
7 A. No, I haven't.
8 Q. All right. Have you been provided -- have you been provided with
9 a copy of your statement to the Prosecution that you gave in Banja Luka,
10 26 November 2001?
11 A. I have not.
12 Q. All right. You have not been provided by the Prosecution with
13 this copy?
14 A. That's right, I haven't.
15 Q. Okay. Did the Defence provide you with a copy of your statement?
16 A. Yes, it did.
17 Q. Now, do you recall whether you were asked about this particular
18 document back on 26 November 2001, some two years after the indictment or
20 A. Yes, I do recall.
21 Q. And just while we're at it, before Mr. Blagojevic was indicted in
22 1999, did the Prosecution ever bother to come talk to you?
23 A. No, they did not.
24 Q. Okay. Now, in this particular document, it's dated 12 July 1995;
25 first of all, do you see your name on it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. Do you recognise the handwriting?
3 A. Yes, it is my handwriting.
4 Q. No dilemma?
5 A. No, not at all.
6 Q. Now, let's look at the first line. It says here: "We hereby
7 submit consumption of materiel and equipment for the period from 10 to 12
8 July 1995."
9 Do you see that?
10 A. Yes, I do.
11 Q. Please explain what that means.
12 A. What that means is that in that period from the 10th to 12th, we
13 issued from the storehouse of the brigade to the subordinated units the
14 indicated quantities of materiel and equipment.
15 Q. All right. Now, does that mean that this materiel was actually
16 consumed, used by the Bratunac Brigade, as this document would have us --
17 at least it would appear from the document?
18 A. No, it doesn't.
19 Q. What does that mean?
20 A. It means that the indicated quantities of ammunition were
21 submitted by us to the subordinated units, and that the level of the
22 stocks of such ammunition in the storehouse of the brigade was reduced by
23 the quantities indicated. What happened afterwards we did not know
24 because we did not get any feedback, any reports on it.
25 Q. Does it mean that the ammunition was actually used or spent?
1 A. No, it doesn't.
2 Q. And do you know whether you told this to the Prosecution so at
3 least they would know it, back on 26 November 2001?
4 A. Yes, I did say that to the Prosecution.
5 Q. Okay. Thank you.
6 Now, let me show you -- but before we go on to the next document,
7 let's talk about July 11th. That was the day that -- July 11th, 1995, the
8 day that Srebrenica fell. Could you please tell us whether you had any
9 particular requests, in light of your position on that particular day?
10 A. No, I did not.
11 Q. Now, let me show you a document that has been marked as P427 --
12 actually, I believe it has been admitted. All right. Have you seen
13 this -- do you recognise this document, sir?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. All right. And could you please tell us what it is.
16 A. This is an order of the command of the Drina Corps -- or rather,
17 the commander General Zivanovic, to the effect that all available buses
18 and minivans which were the property of the VRS units should be made
19 available to the command of the Drina Corps on the 12th in Bratunac.
20 Q. All right. Now, we're going to go step by step. First of all, we
21 know that the date is 12 July 1995. Do you know approximately what time
22 this document would have arrived at the Bratunac Brigade? Is there
23 anything there that might be able to help you out?
24 A. Yes. You can see on the document that it was received on the 12th
25 of July at 0835 hours.
1 Q. All right. And in fact, if we were to look at the document in
2 Srpski, which is with the ERN number 00761238. It even states in there -
3 which hasn't been translated - but it states in there who received this
4 document. Correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And for the record, could you please tell us who received it.
7 A. Major Peskic [as interpreted]. Yes.
8 Q. So that would be Major Eskic, with an E?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. And who was Major Eskic?
11 A. Major Eskic was in charge of personnel affairs in the command of
12 the Bratunac Brigade.
13 Q. On this particular day, looking at this document, looking at where
14 his name is, could you please tell us whether he was carrying out any
15 particular function within the Bratunac Brigade.
16 A. He was on duty on that particular day.
17 Q. And you can see -- you can tell that from looking at this
18 particular box that's at the bottom of the page?
19 A. Yeah, yes.
20 Q. Now, if you could just tell us what the normal procedure would be
21 when a document like this comes in. What would the duty officer do?
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just a small --
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- Foundational objection. I think he testified
25 that the person was on duty. I think there's another question to really
1 sort of identify what that means in this context.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: All right.
3 Q. Sir, do you know what a duty officer is? You told us -- okay.
4 We're going to go step by step. We're not military, so we don't know
5 anything about how the military functions. You indicated that Major Eskic
6 was the duty officer. First of all --
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection --
8 MR. KARNAVAS: Please tell us.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's not what he said, at least in the
10 translation, and that was my point. And so if the question was: "What
11 was his job," that's fine. He said Eskic was on duty -- frankly being on
12 duty, all the soldiers are on duty. Again, I don't -- I think it just
13 needs to be clear. Because all I got in the translation was that his name
14 on this document showed that he was on duty.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe we could go step by step.
16 MR. KARNAVAS:
17 Q. In looking at this particular document, sir, do you know what
18 function he was carrying out on that particular day?
19 A. He was the duty officer at the command of the Bratunac Brigade.
20 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Now, as the duty officer on that
21 particular day -- well, first of all, do you know what those functions
22 are, what are duty officer does, in general? Do you know the functions,
23 yes or no?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Okay. Now, in general, could you please tell us what the duty
1 officer would have done with this kind of a document once it came in to
2 the brigade, what the normal procedure would be.
3 A. As this is an order which has to do with a rear sector, he could
4 have passed that order on to me.
5 Q. Now, would that order be passed on to you physically or orally?
6 A. He would have passed it on to me physically.
7 Q. Okay. Do you recall whether on that particular day, July 12,
8 1995, sometime in the morning, whether you received this document? Do you
9 have any recollection of actually receiving the document and looking at it
10 and reading it?
11 A. No, actually I don't.
12 Q. But the procedure would be that it would be passed on to you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Oh, okay. Now, if we look at this document in a little greater
15 detail, perhaps you might be able to help us out here. I want to focus
16 your attention to the second paragraph -- actually, it's two paragraphs in
17 yours, but the first paragraph of your paper. It says there: "All the
18 available buses and mini-buses belonging to the units of the Army of
19 Republika Srpska must be secured for the use of the Drina Corps command on
20 12 July 1995."
21 Do you see that part?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Okay. Now, could you please tell us again, refresh our memories,
24 how many buses and mini-buses belonged to the Bratunac Brigade, to the
25 Army of the Republika Srpska, in order for them to be turned over for
1 usage by the Drina Corps on the 12th of July, 1995?
2 A. We did not have buses which were the property of the Bratunac
3 Brigade. We had two buses that had been mobilised from the Vihor
4 transport company and which were being used by the Bratunac Brigade.
5 Q. Okay. So you -- so in other words there were no buses to be given
6 to the Drina Corps on that particular day?
7 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Leading.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.
11 Q. If you didn't have any buses that belonged to you, to the Bratunac
12 Brigade, how many would you have been able to give belonging to the
13 Bratunac Brigade?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. It assumes facts in evidence. I mean,
15 being mobilised, that -- unless he wants to establish that mobilising the
16 buses has no reference at all to the brigade that is mobilised, then that
17 question doesn't make sense.
18 JUDGE LIU: Well --
19 MR. KARNAVAS: If we go to the second -- Your Honour, first of
20 all, first of all, the gentleman can clear this matter up on
21 cross-examination. But second of all, there is the third paragraph that
22 talks about mobilisation, buses available to state from private owners.
23 And if the gentleman could be a little calmer and more patient, we can get
24 to that. But right now I was talking about belonging - ownership - versus
25 mobilisation and use - usage. And we covered that earlier, and so now I'm
1 going through this step by step, this document.
2 JUDGE LIU: I have some difficulties with the witness's answer and
3 you may ask some questions to clarify that answer. Because I believe your
4 question should be focused around the answer the witness has given.
5 MR. KARNAVAS:
6 Q. Sir, reading this document where it says: "All available buses
7 and mini-buses belonging to the units of the Army of Republika Srpska must
8 be secured for usage of the Drina Corps."
9 To your understanding, could you please tell us this word
10 "belonging," what is your understanding of it, of this word?
11 A. That means the ownership, that they belonged to the Army of
12 Republika Srpska, that's what I meant.
13 Q. Did the Army of the Republika Srpska own buses and mini-buses?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I'm not talking about mobilise for the usage of; I'm talking about
16 actually owning them.
17 A. The Army of Republika Srpska had buses. The Bratunac Brigade did
18 not have any buses.
19 Q. All right. Now, let's look at the next paragraph, because the
20 next paragraph reads: The corps command has sent a request to the
21 ministry of defence of Republika Srpska demanding that the ministry of
22 defence offices in Sarajevo and Zvornik obtain by 12 July 1995 all the
23 buses available from the state and private owners for the use of the
24 commands of the brigades and whose areas the buses are being sought. And
25 then it goes on.
1 In Bratunac, where were those buses coming from that would be
2 available from state and private owners?
3 A. From all the neighbouring municipalities.
4 Q. In Bratunac itself, was there a state-owned enterprise that had
5 buses and mini-buses that it could lend or let the Drina Corps commandeer
6 or mobilise?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Which company was that?
9 A. The Vihor transport company from Bratunac.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, I want to show you another document, and
11 this is exhibit P470. Can you read this document, sir?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And this is an interim combat report, is it not, dated 13 July
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. Now, it states here that: "Today" -- that would have been
17 13 July 1995, "at 1700 hours, we sent a unit consisting of 92 soldiers,
18 led by the chief of staff, to carry out the following tasks in the area of
19 Bracan. The unit was sent on the direction of Bratunac-Milici-Bracan."
20 Now, my question to you, sir, is, first of all: Do you recall
21 soldiers being sent in that direction?
22 A. I do indeed.
23 Q. Could you please tell us how they would have been transported from
24 Bratunac to this new location.
25 A. They were transported by two buses.
1 Q. Which buses are we talking about?
2 A. The buses that were at the disposal of the Bratunac Brigade, which
3 had been mobilised by the Bratunac Brigade.
4 Q. Those are the same two buses that we have been talking about more
5 or less this morning?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, this is July 13, 1995. Let me take you back a day. On 12
8 July 1995, were those buses that the Bratunac Brigade had mobilised from
9 Vihor, were those buses used in Potocari on the 12th?
10 A. They were.
11 Q. Could you please tell us who issued those orders for those buses
12 to be used.
13 A. I was in contact with Colonel Acamovic most often, and he made me
14 aware of the fact that on the order of the commander of the Drina Corps we
15 should engage these buses for the transport of Muslims from Srebrenica.
16 Q. Well, that was on the 12th. Correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Well, if they were being used for that purpose, is there any
19 reason why you didn't go back to Vihor to ask for additional transport to
20 enable the Bratunac Brigade soldiers on the 13th to go to Milici?
21 A. When the buses returned from their route towards Kladanj, I talked
22 to my assistant for transport and I asked him to retain the buses which
23 would be used for the execution of the following tasks.
24 Q. Okay. Now, since we're on the 12th, I want to stay on the 12th
25 before we go to anymore documents. Would you please tell us on that
1 particular day, July 12th, 1995, the day after Srebrenica fell, what you
3 A. I was at the brigade command performing my regular duties.
4 Q. All right. Now, on that particular day do you recall whether you
5 had any meetings with your commander, Colonel Blagojevic?
6 A. I don't remember.
7 Q. Did you attend any meetings where General Mladic was present?
8 A. No, I didn't.
9 Q. Did you go to Potocari on that day?
10 A. On the 12th, yes, I did go to Potocari.
11 Q. Could you please tell us first of all who ordered you or
12 instructed you or suggested to you that you go to Potocari.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection to the form of the question. It's not
15 helpful to provide three different versions, because we don't know which
16 three would have been used. And it also -- there should be a foundation:
17 Were you ordered to go to Potocari? Not assuming he was ordered to go to
19 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll rephrase.
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
21 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll rephrase.
22 Q. Were you ordered to go to Potocari?
23 A. I received an order to organise the preparation and distribution
24 of bread for the Muslim population in the Potocari sector.
25 Q. Who ordered you to do that?
1 A. Colonel Acamovic.
2 Q. Now, did -- were you ever ordered by anyone to also go to
4 A. No. No.
5 Q. All right. Did anyone suggest to you that you should go to
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did anyone instruct you to go to Potocari?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Then why did you go to Potocari?
11 JUDGE LIU: I think the witness answered that question already.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, Your Honour, he said he was ordered to
13 prepare the bread.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not sure that we heard why he actually went
17 JUDGE LIU: To prepare the bread.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, the --
19 JUDGE LIU: And the distribution of this bread to the Muslim
21 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, it wasn't quite clear -- I agree with you,
22 Your Honour, but I want to make sure.
23 Q. Now, when you got to Potocari -- first of all, could you please
24 tell us: How did you get there?
25 A. I went there by car, but by my own official car.
1 Q. Was anyone with you?
2 A. I went there on my own.
3 Q. What about the bread? Was that with you?
4 A. No. The bread had arrived in the meantime.
5 Q. How did it arrive in Potocari?
6 A. It was delivered in the mini TAM vehicle that we had at the
8 Q. About what time do you recall you went to Potocari?
9 A. Around 11.00 or 12.00, approximately.
10 Q. Would you please tell us how long you stayed there.
11 A. An hour or so, an hour and a half maybe.
12 Q. Would you please tell us what, if anything, you did while you were
13 there for that hour, hour and a half.
14 A. Very simply, I was observing the event, the Muslims that gathered
15 there. They were being separated by the soldiers of the DutchBat from the
16 soldiers of the Republika Srpska Army. In the meantime, the bread had
17 arrived. We distributed this bread to the Muslim population. Actually,
18 it wasn't us but the rear company of the Bratunac Brigade that did the
20 Q. The job being the distribution of the bread?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. Now, you said that you were observing the events and
23 that there was DutchBat and also soldiers of the RS. Could you please
24 tell us from which units were these soldiers from the RS, if you know.
25 A. There were soldiers from units of the Drina Corps. I can't be
1 more precise than that, because I didn't pay too much attention to them.
2 Q. Is that because of the uniforms, that you recognised them to be
3 from the VRS, the Drina Corps?
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. How did you recognise them --
6 MR. KARNAVAS:
7 Q. How did you recognise them? How did you recognise them?
8 A. The troops of the VRS had a certain kind of uniform, of course,
9 but I knew that they were from other units because I didn't know them.
10 Some of them even had an insignia indicating that they belonged to, for
11 example, the Zvornik Brigade. For example, their insignia were wolves
12 from the Drina River. That's what I recognised.
13 Q. All right. What about MUP? Did you see any MUP units there?
14 A. There were also policemen, but not as a unit. Just policemen in
15 police uniforms.
16 Q. What about special police, special police units? Did you
17 recognise any of them?
18 A. Special police, are you referring to the civilian special police
19 or the military police?
20 Q. I'm referring to the civilian special police.
21 A. I didn't notice any members of the civilian special police.
22 Q. Do you know how they were dressed, what colours they were wearing?
23 A. They had different uniforms. As far as I can remember, members of
24 the special police wore black overalls.
25 Q. All right. Now, did you see any members of the Bratunac Brigade
1 there, whether they were soldiers or military police?
2 A. There were members of the Bratunac Brigade there.
3 Q. Okay. Do you recall what they were doing, if anything?
4 A. Well, at that moment they were providing security. They were
5 engaged in separating soldiers from the Muslim population.
6 Q. Now, did you see any higher-echelon officers there, anybody from
7 the Main Staff?
8 A. General Mladic was there; I saw him. General Krstic as well. And
9 there were some other officers from the corps, from the Main Staff.
10 Q. Did you see your commander, Colonel Blagojevic?
11 A. I don't remember having seen him.
12 Q. Do you recall in your statement telling the investigators in Banja
13 Luka that you had been with him that day?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could -- that's vague. "Having been with
18 him," I think --
19 MR. KARNAVAS:
20 Q. Do you recall telling the investigators that you had seen him
21 there in Potocari?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Was that correct?
24 A. No, it isn't correct.
25 Q. All right. Now, when you saw General Mladic, were you able to
1 hear what, if anything, he was saying?
2 A. Yes. I could hear him addressing the Muslims who were present
4 Q. All right. Would you please tell us what you heard.
5 A. There were women, children, and elderly people there, and he told
6 them not to be afraid. He told them that all who wanted to be transported
7 by buses to Kladanj would be transported there, and that from there they
8 would proceed towards the territory under the control of the -- Alija
9 Izetbegovic's army.
10 Q. Did you believe General Mladic when he was telling people not to
11 be afraid, and those who wanted to be transported would be?
12 A. Yes, I believed him.
13 Q. Why?
14 A. Because he was talking to women, children, and elderly, to the
15 helpless, starving people. And there was no reason for me not to believe
16 General Mladic's words.
17 Q. All right. While you were there, at that point in time, when
18 General Mladic was speaking to the crowd, did you witness any separation
19 being done?
20 A. No.
21 Q. While you were there, did you walk around into the crowd all
22 around that area to see what, if anything, was happening?
23 A. No, I didn't move about too much. It was impossible to do that.
24 The population had been separated. I could not have wandered into the
25 crowd. I was standing on the other side of the separation line, and I was
1 just observing what was going on.
2 Q. Now, after you spent that hour, and an hour and a half there,
3 where did you go?
4 A. I returned to the brigade command.
5 Q. When you returned to the brigade command, did you report to your
6 commander what you had been issued to do by Mr. Acamovic; that is, the
7 distribution of bread?
8 A. I don't remember having reported to him. I did not deem it
9 necessary at the time.
10 Q. Did you report to him that you had left your post that is at the
11 Bratunac Brigade headquarters and had ventured into Potocari on July 12th?
12 A. No, I didn't.
13 Q. Did you write any reports to your commander so that at least
14 perhaps he would have something in writing as to what you saw, what you
15 observed, what you heard while you were there?
16 A. No. There was no need for me to issue any special reports.
17 Q. Well, earlier you said that, and we discussed this, that the two
18 buses that had been mobilised from Vihor and were being used by the
19 Bratunac Brigade were now engaged in Potocari pursuant to the request from
20 Mr. Acamovic. Did you inform --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you inform Colonel Blagojevic that Acamovic had issued the
23 order to you or passed along the order to you that we saw from major --
24 from General Zivanovic?
25 A. No, I didn't inform him about that. I believed that the -- any
1 order issued by the Drina Corps had to be executed.
2 Q. All right. Did you know Mr. Acamovic before this, these events?
3 Had you worked with him before?
4 A. Yes, I knew him.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, I'm about to go into some documents
6 with respect to fuel, and it might take a little while to get through
7 these documents. So this might be a good time.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll have a break. And we'll resume at 12.30.
9 --- Recess taken at 11.57 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.
13 Q. Mr. Trisic, I now would like to go through a series of documents
14 with respect to the issue of fuel. If I could show you -- first of all,
15 we're going to go step by step. I'll just show you what has been -- D156.
16 This is marked for identification as D156. First of all, I want you to
17 look at it very carefully. And as I understand, you're looking at the
18 handwritten version with the ERN number 00671770.
19 First of all, do you recognise this handwriting?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Whose handwriting is it, sir?
22 A. It is the late Pavle Loncarevic, who was my assistant for
24 Q. If we look all the way to the bottom, sir, of the page, do we not
25 see your name, assistant commander for logistics?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is that your signature, sir?
3 A. No, that is not my signature.
4 Q. And is there anything there that would reflect that your name is
5 being signed or placed there by someone else?
6 A. There was my associate who wrote my name there.
7 Q. Does he say "za," for instance, "for," when he signs your name,
8 that he's signing for you? Do you see that there anywhere?
9 A. No, no, I don't.
10 Q. Now, if we could go through this document step by step, we see
11 that this would appear to be a report with respect to the consumption of
12 fuel, lubricants, et cetera, for the month of July 1995. Correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. Now, under 1 it says: "Fuel received 1 July 1995."
15 And it states here: "Diesel" -- no. I'm sorry. "Fuel reserves 1
16 July 1995." Correction.
17 Now, in the reserves it would appear -- of the Bratunac Brigade
18 there were 903 litres of diesel and 148 litres of petrol. Is that
20 A. Yes. Yes. It is.
21 Q. Now, let's go to the next item. It says: "2. Amounts of fuel
22 received in the course of the month."
23 And we see from the Drina Corps that the Bratunac Brigade would
24 have received, according to this document, 18.300 litres of diesel and
25 2.160 litres of petrol. Do you see that?
1 A. Yes. Yes.
2 Q. From your estimation and having been the assistant commander of
3 rear services for the Bratunac Brigade from the end of 1992 to this point
4 in time in 1995, would this amount, 18.300 litres of diesel and 2.160
5 litres of petrol, would that be a representative amount of fuel that the
6 Bratunac Brigade would consume on a normal basis?
7 A. No, it wouldn't.
8 Q. Would that be high or would that be low?
9 A. Much more.
10 Q. Okay. Now we go to subsection b, 2(b). It says that the Bratunac
11 Brigade also received from Vihor 1.684 litres of diesel. Do you see that?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. From another company called Gradina, 1.050 litres of diesel.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The Bratunac municipality, 1.000 litres of diesel and 400 litres
16 of petrol.
17 A. Right.
18 Q. Then we see from UNHCR, the United Nations, 30.000 litres of
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And then from the Eastern Bosnian Corps in Bijeljina, 200 litres
22 of petrol. Do you see that?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Then if we go now to number 3 --
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, everything is written there. Do
1 you need to go over from the very beginning to the end of this document?
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Well --
3 JUDGE LIU: You may just pose your question to this witness. I
4 don't think there's any disputes concerning what is written there.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand, Your Honour. Of course, that is not
6 his handwriting; that is somebody else's handwriting. And at some point
7 I'm going to go through these receipts. And I don't want to draw any
8 objections with respect to foundation, lack of foundation.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, you may ask a general question to this witness
10 concerning with this document. Then they're followed by other questions.
11 MR. KARNAVAS:
12 Q. It would appear here, sir, that July 1995 the Bratunac Brigade
13 consumed 52.570 litres of diesel and 2.799 of petrol. My question is:
14 Did the Bratunac Brigade consume that amount of diesel and petrol in the
15 month of July 1995?
16 A. It could not have spent this quantity of fuel, but this is the
17 quantity of fuel which was entered in the records maintained by the
18 Bratunac Brigade.
19 Q. All right. Now, we're going to go to that. Did the Bratunac
20 Brigade have the materiel, the transport materiel, to consume such a large
21 amount of diesel and petrol?
22 A. No, it didn't.
23 Q. All right. Now, before we go into the sheets, could you please
24 give us an explanation about these figures. To your understanding, what
25 do these figures represent?
1 A. These figures represent as regards item 2(a) and (b). The
2 quantities of fuel which, entered on the basis of valid documents, the
3 rear sector, or rather, the rear company of the Bratunac Brigade. Under 3
4 are shown the quantities of fuel which went out on the basis also of
5 pertinent documentation from the rear company of the Bratunac Brigade. So
6 these are the incoming and outgoing quantities of fuel, which does not at
7 all mean that it was all spent, consumed, at the time in question for
8 combat or non-combat vehicles.
9 Q. Could you please tell us to the best of your knowledge who
10 consumed, first of all, who consumed this fuel.
11 A. It was the rear sector of the command of the Drina Corps.
12 Q. Now, did the rear sector or rear services of the Drina Corps
13 command need to ask permission from you or from your commander in order to
14 consume this fuel?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Now, given that we're dealing with some fairly large amounts of
17 fuel, could you please tell us, first of all, how that fuel was brought to
18 the Bratunac Brigade, if you know; and two, where it would have been
20 A. As regards this first item under (a), in item 2, from the command
21 of the Drina Corps, the fuel would be delivered in the tanks owned by the
22 corps. And these tank trucks were parked on the parking lot of the Vihor
23 transport enterprise, which is at the entry to Bratunac if you look from
24 the direction of Konjevic Polje. So these tank trucks were parked there,
25 and the fuel would be discharged directly from the tanks and the buses
1 would be filled directly there.
2 Q. Let me stop you right here for a second before we go to the next.
3 Who was actually doing that physically?
4 A. Physically, the operation was carried out by the driver and the
5 co-driver from the headquarters from the command of the Drina Corps, who
6 were actually driving or operating these tank trucks.
7 Q. How was the fuel then put into the buses or trucks that needed
8 fueling at the time? Who was engaged in that?
9 A. Well, there was a -- the head of the transport services of the
10 Drina Corps was there, Krsmanovic. I believe that he was a colonel. And
11 this I was informed about by my assistant for the transport service,
13 Q. Do you know whether any of the men from the Bratunac Brigade were
14 involved under the direction of Mr. Krsmanovic in carrying out these
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That's compound. Were they involved,
18 and then I think then you can ask. But otherwise, it's really not a
19 helpful question.
20 JUDGE LIU: Well --
21 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, that's okay. That's all right. Trial
22 advocacy 101.
23 Q. Were any of the men of the Bratunac Brigade involved in any of
24 these activities; that is, putting the fuel into the trucks and to the
25 buses, if you know? Don't speculate. Don't assume. If you know.
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. All right. Now, what did Mr. Loncarevic, who was working under
3 you, what did he tell you with respect to Mr. Krsmanovic who was from the
4 Drina Corps, if anything?
5 A. In fact, there was nothing that he had to report to me about
6 specifically, because these were jobs that we had to carry out in view of
7 the presence of the superior command of the Drina Corps on the premises.
8 Q. Mr. Krsmanovic, in which sector of the Drina Corps was he working
10 A. The transport service.
11 Q. And the transport service, in which sector is located within the
12 Drina Corps? Who is his commander, for instance?
13 A. Colonel Acamovic is.
14 Q. Now -- so the transport would be within the rear services. Is
15 that what you're telling us?
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. Now, did Mr. Krsmanovic seek your authority or permission to use
18 those facilities and use any of your men, if they were engaged, in the
19 distribution of the fuel?
20 A. No, he did not seek any approval.
21 Q. Did they at least -- did he at least give you some information
22 that he was about to be carrying out those activities at that location and
23 perhaps might be using some of your personnel in carrying out these
25 A. In fact, we hadn't even met or seen each other at the time.
1 Q. Did you by any chance inform your commander, Colonel Blagojevic --
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, that's nonresponsive.
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
4 MR. KARNAVAS:
5 Q. Did you see Mr. Krsmanovic there during those days?
6 A. No, I did not.
7 Q. Did you hear from Mr. Krsmanovic those days?
8 A. No, I didn't.
9 Q. So if you hadn't heard from him, you couldn't have received any
10 information from him directly. Correct?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. Now, just refresh our memory. Who told you about Mr. Krsmanovic
13 being there at that location?
14 A. My assistant Loncarevic did.
15 Q. Would you please tell us: When did he tell you? Was this before
16 the activities were carried out? During? Or after?
17 A. It was after the activities had been carried out.
18 Q. After these activities were carried out, and once you learned from
19 Mr. Loncarevic that Mr. Krsmanovic, who was working under Mr. Acamovic,
20 was there, did you by any chance then inform your commander,
21 Colonel Blagojevic, as to what had occurred?
22 A. There was no need for that, because these were activities carried
23 out or normally carried out by the corps.
24 Q. All right. Now, let's get back to where we were earlier before I
25 interrupted you and we went down this little detour. The other amounts of
1 petrol are rather small until we get to the amount by UNHCR, 30.000 litres
2 of diesel. Could you please tell us, first of all, how did that arrive?
3 A. Colonel Acamovic informed me of the fact that we, the army, would
4 be getting 30.000 litres of fuel, and he asked me whether we had the
5 necessary storage facilities for that. I suggested to him that we should
6 temporarily store the fuel in the tanks of the warehouse -- in the
7 warehouse of the Vihor transport company from Bratunac, and that is the
8 way it was done.
9 Q. Do you know where that fuel ultimately -- how that fuel was
10 ultimately consumed and by whom?
11 A. A portion of this fuel was used to fill the tanks of the buses
12 used to transport the Muslims. A second part was repossessed by the
13 corps, that is to say these quantities of fuel that had been delivered
14 were practically returned -- in fact, they were returned to the corps so
15 that we actually managed to carry out the entire transportation with the
16 fuel that we received from the UNHCR and the DutchBat.
17 Q. When you say "we," are we talking about the Bratunac Brigade? Who
18 is "we"?
19 A. I mean the rear services.
20 Q. Okay. Now, when you say that "we were able to carry out the
21 entire transportation," are we talking about the we, the Bratunac Brigade,
22 the rear services within the Bratunac Brigade?
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That's leading. It's a who, not
25 trying to exclude the Bratunac Brigade, which is what's going on here.
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
2 MR. KARNAVAS:
3 Q. Who carried out -- who was carrying out this activity?
4 A. The rear services of the Drina Corps command.
5 Q. All right. Now -- by the way, were you consulted beforehand as to
6 whether they should be over there in Bratunac using your facilities? Did
7 they seek permission from you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Didn't you ask Mr. Acamovic, you know, for his order, who had
10 ordered him over there?
11 A. No, I didn't.
12 Q. All right. Was there a particular reason why you didn't ask
13 Mr. Acamovic to produce to you some sort of order that would authorise him
14 to be there, taking up your space, perhaps even engaging your men?
15 A. By virtue of his position, it is actually Colonel Acamovic that --
16 who issues orders to me. I have no right to ask him who he received his
17 orders from.
18 Q. Okay. Would the resources that were consumed from the Bratunac
19 Brigade of such a nature that you would have required -- you would have
20 been required to contact your own commander because perhaps it would have
21 been a disruption in the functional relationship that exists within your
23 A. I did not have to consult the commander. These were small
25 Q. Now, I want to show you a list of documents that go along with
1 this. The first series, it's 157, what has been marked for identification
2 as D157. Could you look at that document. Again, this is an unofficial
3 translation. There are actually three documents.
4 First of all, do you recognise these documents, sir, D157, page 1,
5 page 2, page 3?
6 A. Yes, I do recognise them.
7 Q. And could you please tell me: What are they? What do you
8 recognise them to be?
9 A. These are documents which are evidence of the delivery in three
10 instances on the 12th of July of fuel to the Bratunac Brigade, as this
11 document says, as it is addressed to VP 7042, and that is the Bratunac
12 Brigade. The order for the delivery of fuel is by Colonel -- or I presume
13 Lieutenant Colonel Basevic of the technical service of the Drina corps.
14 Q. And could you please tell us the amounts in these three pages from
15 D157? What are the amounts -- the total amounts of fuel you would have
16 received on 12 July 1995?
17 A. The total amount was 13.000 litres of diesel and 400 litres of
19 Q. Okay. And you could see that from these -- from these three
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. All right. Well, let me show you another document, 158.
23 Do you know what this document is, sir?
24 A. This document is proof that from the UNHCR Srebrenica we got
25 30.000 litres of diesel on the 13th of July, 1995.
1 Q. All right. And is that the 30.000 that we're talking about in the
2 previous document that we see, do you know?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. Now, just for the record, we have heard from a
5 Major Franken -- or Colonel Franken, I believe he's colonel right now. He
6 had indicated that to his understanding that the fuel was approximately
7 27.000 litres and that it had arrived on the 15th or 16th of July. And
8 I'm reading, just for the record, on page 1.490 where he's being
9 questioned by Mr. Waespi, Monday, 15th September 2003.
10 Is Mr. Franken correct in stating that it was about 27.000 litres
11 of diesel and that it had arrived on the 15th or 16th? Or would this
12 document that I've shown you perhaps be more accurate? Which of the two,
13 if you know?
14 A. The quantity was recorded as 30.000. And I wish to adhere by
16 Q. Okay. All right. And the receipt again on this particular day
17 shows that it was the 13th of July. Correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. Now, let me show you the next document, which is D159 for
20 identification. If you could please look at that. Do you recognise this
21 document, sir, or do you know what it is?
22 A. I recognise this document. It represents the entry of fuel from
23 the Bratunac Brigade via the (UNHCR) into the Vihor tank. The assistant
24 director of Vihor, Mr. Gojko Stjepanovic, who has signed here in the
25 middle of the page, recorded 23.300 litres of diesel that entered the
1 Vihor tank from the UNHCR. And the owner, according to this document, is
2 the military post 7042.
3 Q. And what post is that?
4 A. The Bratunac Brigade.
5 Q. All right. Now, could you please tell us -- it says here:
6 "Received" -- I note here on one of the pages that it says, at least in
7 the handwriting version -- the handwritten version, that what was received
8 from UNHCR was 23.300. Do you know what happened to the rest? Assuming
9 that 30.000 came in, it would appear that some is missing or gone missing?
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: That's assuming that this is a reference to the
13 other 30.000. There's been no link there. Not that I see a whole lot of
14 relevance, but there's been no indication of a link.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
16 MR. KARNAVAS:
17 Q. If we could look at the date on this particular document. Now,
18 previously I showed you the actual receipt that says it was from the
19 UNHCR, and we said it was dated 13 July 1995. Correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. Now, if you could look at this particular date, please tell
22 us what is -- what date is this?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: The documents speak for themselves. If this
1 person knows there's a link, we can ask him. But we can see the
2 documents, but there's lots of evidence coming in from places on various
3 dates, and if this person can sort it out, fine. But I don't think we
4 just need to repeat the documents all over.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
6 Mr. Karnavas, it's obvious that there's two different figures of
7 the fuel supplied by UNHCR. You may ask a question to this witness
8 whether he knows the difference and what's the reason for that.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. I was trying to do that before
10 the objections that were being raised.
11 Q. Could you please tell us --
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I'm going to object to the arguing
13 with the Court. It's offering more information and unnecessary
14 information to the witness and it's just going to delay the case.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, the delaying of the case, Your Honour, is
16 that the Prosecution has chosen seven years later to begin doing their
17 investigation. I should not be blamed for their incompetence --
18 JUDGE LIU: Let's come to this specific issue. We did not
19 characterise whose fuel as missing. We just say, obviously there's a
20 difference; what's the reason for that?
21 MR. KARNAVAS:
22 Q. Do you know, sir, why there is a difference? On the one hand it
23 says that fuel was received on the 13th with -- from the UNHCR at 30.000.
24 And here in this handwritten note we see that it's only 23.300. Can you
25 account for that difference?
1 A. I can assume that before this fuel entered the Vihor tank we had
2 consumed some 6.700 litres. And that the chief accountant at Vihor had --
3 recorded that immediately and recorded a subsequent entry of 23.300 litres
4 of fuel.
5 Q. All right. Let me show you another series of documents. If we
6 could stick with that document for one more second. If you could look at
7 the handwritten version, that would be on page 2 in the typewritten
8 version in English, at some point it says -- we have a distribution list
9 and it says: "Distributed fuel truck, 13.000," and then again "2.000."
10 Do you see that? In the handwritten version --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Could you please tell us: What does that mean, as far as you
13 understand it?
14 A. This means that this fuel was again taken over by the rear
15 services of the Drina Corps. This fuel was basically returned to the
16 corps from the tank.
17 Q. Okay. And how was it returned or distributed? It says "fuel
18 truck" versus "barrel" further down. What's the distinction?
19 A. The first entries, 13.000 litres is a big tank; 2.000 is for small
20 tanks. That's the next two items. And the difference was transported in
21 barrels, because there was no more room in either the big tank or the few
22 smaller tanks.
23 Q. Okay. Now, if we could look at D160, what's been marked for
24 identification as D160. There again is a series of documents. There is a
25 typed version and there is a handwritten version, handwritten being 162.
1 But first let's stick with the D160. Do you recognise this document, sir?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And this has the ERN number for the record 00663506.
4 What is this document, sir?
5 A. This is the record of fuel which was filled in the buses. Mostly
6 the buses which had been mobilised. You can tell by the registration
7 plates, the numbers on the registration plates.
8 Q. And where were those buses filled, what location?
9 A. In the Vihor parking lot, at the very entrance to Bratunac.
10 Q. And please describe the manner in which these buses would have
11 been filled or these vehicles would have been filled.
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection to the --
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: -- form of the question. "Would have been" is not
15 helpful; that doesn't tell us much. If he knows how they were filled or
16 whatever, but "would have been" doesn't tell us anything.
17 JUDGE LIU: Just ask a direct question to this witness.
18 MR. KARNAVAS:
19 Q. Do you know how the buses were filled?
20 A. Directly from the tank. The buses were filled directly from the
22 Q. Now, when you say "the tank," is that the tank that is located in
23 the ground or outside, or is it the truck that's carrying the fuel?
24 A. From the lorry tanks, through the buses.
25 Q. Okay. All right. Thank you. Let me show you now D161. This is
1 a very similar document, but perhaps you could just for the record please
2 tell us what it is. The Srpski version is 00663510. Do you recognise
3 this document, or do you know what it is?
4 A. I recognise this document, and this represents the quantities of
5 fuel that were filled in various vehicles, lorries and such.
6 Q. Do you know where they were fueled?
7 A. Again, this was probably done in the Vihor parking lot.
8 Q. All right. Now, let me show you one last document. We don't have
9 a translation, although it is just a bunch of numbers. If we could put
10 one on the ELMO. And this document, again provided to us by the OTP,
11 00663512, marked for identification as D162.
12 Do you recognise this document, or do you know what it is?
13 A. I recognise it. This is again an overview of fuel that was put in
14 various vehicles, mostly belonging to the VRS on the 15th of July, 1995,
15 in Borkovac [phoen]. Now, Borkovac is this Vihor parking lot that I have
16 been mentioning all this time.
17 Q. All right. Now, on this page we also see the initials "ZV." What
18 does that stand for, if you know?
19 A. Those are civilian trucks.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just one clarification.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I notice the record says 15 July, and I think the
23 document says 13. And unless I'm not seeing something that the witness
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, that's the witness's answer. You may clarify
1 this issue.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.
3 Q. If you could look at the top of the document, sir, could you
4 please tell us what the date is on that date.
5 A. 13 of July.
6 Q. Okay. And this would -- so what again does this represent? I'm
7 not leading you?
8 A. On the 13th of July fuel was filled in the here-listed vehicles in
9 Borkovac, in the Vihor parking lot.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. That will be it for the fuel.
11 Perhaps I can -- I apologise. If we could go back to just to make
12 sure I clarify one point on D156. Now, we note -- we started by saying
13 that the fuel reserves on July 1, diesel 903 litres, and petrol 148
14 litres. On this document, does it reflect how many reserves were left at
15 the end of July; that is, it would have been August 1, the next accounting
16 period? Actually, if you go down to number 5.
17 A. 367 litres of diesel and 109 litres of petrol is what was left.
18 Q. Okay. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure that we covered that
19 point. Now, to other matters. If I could show you what has been marked
20 as -- I'll show you two documents, actually. I just want to start off
21 with D163 for identification, I believe. Yes, D163 for identification.
22 The document is dated 24 July 1995. Do you see your name on this
23 document, sir?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you're looking at the handwritten version, are you not, with
1 the ERN number 00671767?
2 A. I am indeed.
3 Q. Do you recognise this handwriting?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Whose handwriting is it?
6 A. My own.
7 Q. And is that your signature down there at the bottom?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. No dilemma?
10 A. No dilemma whatsoever.
11 Q. Okay. Now, here it talks about -- this particular document makes
12 reference to certain equipment or property that was appropriated, does it
14 A. No, it was not appropriated rated, yes.
15 Q. Okay. This list of equipment, that's 1 through 9. Where was this
16 equipment located?
17 A. It was in the possession of the rear service of the Bratunac
19 Q. Okay. But where was it located initially before it was taken into
20 the Bratunac Brigade?
21 A. Everything between 1 and 8 is the equipment of the Dutch
22 Battalion. Under 8 and 9, those are two civilian trucks which were
23 brought from Potocari.
24 Q. And what was the purpose of this document, of generating this
25 particular document?
1 A. The corps wanted us to submit a report on all the collected
2 equipment from the former enclave of Srebrenica.
3 Q. Do you know how some of this equipment came into the possession of
4 the Bratunac Brigade?
5 A. Under 1, armoured personnel carrier, six items. We came into the
6 possession of these directly through the crews of the carriers. The
7 DutchBat soldiers would come to the command with their carriers to
8 surrender; that was in two or three cases. And the other two or three
9 surrendered at various checkpoints directly to the military police. The
10 rest of the equipment from 2 through 9 was collected all over the place
11 where Dutch -- the DutchBat had its points. Once those checkpoints were
12 deserted, we collected the equipment -- I'm talking about generators,
13 tents, receptacles for transporting food and so on and so forth. As for
14 the trucks, we got them in Potocari and took them over from there.
15 Q. Okay. Let me show you a document that was generated by
16 Colonel Jankovic approximately -- it was 14 July 1995, very early hours,
17 0030. This is a report to the command of the Drina Corps' intelligence
18 department. First of all, did you know Colonel Jankovic? Did you know of
20 A. I saw him in Bratunac at the time.
21 Q. Did you have any association with him?
22 A. No.
23 Q. All right. Now, on this document it says at one point towards the
24 bottom that: "The MUP, Ministry of the Interior, is stealing on a massive
25 scale from UNPROFOR," and it goes on.
1 My question to you, sir, is: Any of the documents -- any of the
2 items that are listed on this particular document that I showed you
3 previously, D163, that you listed, were those stolen by the Bratunac
4 Brigade from UNPROFOR, to your knowledge?
5 A. No, they were not stolen.
6 Q. Okay. All right. When you were in Potocari on the 12th, what did
7 you think was going to happen to the people that were there?
8 A. Well, I didn't have any reason to give it a second thought.
9 Mladic promised the population that they would be transported to Kladanj.
10 There was no other solution.
11 Q. Now, were you there sort of assisting in the ethnic cleansing of
13 A. No. The Muslims who were gathered there expressed their wish, as
14 far as I know, to be transported to Kladanj. And from there on to Tuzla.
15 Q. Do you know what has happened to some of the men that were there?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Have you heard about any atrocities having occurred after the fall
18 of Srebrenica?
19 A. Later on I did, but at the moment I knew nothing.
20 Q. All right. Well, could you please tell us at least what you have
21 learned since then.
22 A. Later on I learned, I heard, that people had been killed, that
23 Muslims had been killed.
24 Q. All right. While you were in Potocari, did you see any separation
25 of men. At the time that you were there, did you notice men, able-bodied
1 men? I'm not talking about the children, I'm not talking about the very
2 old men, did you see any --
3 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, you asked this question before. We
4 could go back to the transcript.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm -- as I was asking the question, Your Honour, I
6 realised that I had asked the question, but I was midstream. But thank
8 Q. Now, from what you were able to observe, from what you were able
9 to observe, it appeared to you at the time you were there that the Muslims
10 were being treated correctly?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And how can you say that?
13 A. There wasn't any maltreatment. People, women and children and the
14 elderly started to board the buses. They were not being mistreated. We
15 gave them the little food that we could. Everything proceeded in a
16 regular fashion.
17 Q. Okay. That's what you were able to see?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. Okay. Now, you indicated that at one point prior to you becoming
20 a member of the Bratunac Brigade you were in the intelligence and security
21 sector of the Territorial Defence. Do you remember that? Do you remember
22 telling us that?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Do you know who filled that position in the Bratunac Brigade?
25 A. Captain Nikolic did.
1 Q. And if I understood your testimony correctly, when you were
2 working for the Territorial Defence - and if I recall Captain Nikolic's
3 testimony, he would have been there working with you at the same time.
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. All right. Now, I want to fast forward to July 12th, 13th, and so
7 on. During that period of time, did Captain Nikolic tell you that he had
8 been appointed the coordinator of the units that were in Potocari at the
10 A. No, he didn't tell me.
11 Q. When you were there did you see him by any chance coordinating
12 among the various units?
13 A. Well, he was there and he was doing the work, and that is it,
15 Q. All right. Did he tell you that he had been appointed by any
16 chance by Colonel Jankovic to carry out this activity?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is a form of argument. The proper question
20 is: What did he tell you?
21 MR. KARNAVAS: It's not a --
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: And if he didn't tell him anything, then he can
23 argue that, but --
24 MR. KARNAVAS: It's part of the evidence and it's part of the
25 Prosecution's case, having believed the gentleman, that is Nikolic, that
1 Jankovic put this captain in charge of coordinating. And I'm merely
2 asking if Momir Nikolic --
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, the argument is unnecessary.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: There needs to be foundation to a question like
6 that. Because if there is a reason for it, you can see from the
7 foundational question.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: I'll go on.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
10 MR. KARNAVAS:
11 Q. Did Momir Nikolic ever tell you that on the morning of the 12th
12 Popovic and Kosovic told them that they were going to kill all the men.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. The foundational question is: Did
14 Mr. Nikolic tell you anything? Mr. Karnavas knows this.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: I don't know this. This is perfectly normal. I
16 mean, I'm asking whether he was told about the killings. Momir Nikolic
17 came here and testified.
18 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas, we don't know the background, the
19 situations there, whether the witness had that talk with Mr. Nikolic or
20 not. Or maybe he just saw him there.
21 MR. KARNAVAS:
22 Q. Did you ever speak with Mr. Nikolic during the 12th?
23 A. I don't remember.
24 Q. What about the 13th?
25 A. I'm not sure. I have no recollection of any such talk.
1 Q. After these events were over, did Mr. Nikolic ever tell you
2 anything about his involvement, the role that he played with respect to
3 coordinating or assisting in the killings, that sort of stuff?
4 A. He didn't.
5 Q. All right. Now, let me -- let's go further ahead to October 16,
6 1995. Let me show you a document that is marked D165. Now, according to
7 this document here, it appears that on this particular day Mr. Nikolic at
8 a meeting, a working meeting of commanders, indicated that he was
9 currently, that is back then, he was engaged in tasks issued by the Army
10 of Republika Srpska General Staff and in parenthesis it says "asanacija."
11 Now, if we look at this piece of paper, do you see your name
13 A. Yes, I see that I was present there.
14 Q. Okay. Is this -- do you recognise the handwriting?
15 A. This is Nikolic's handwriting.
16 Q. Okay. Now, do you recall being at that particular meeting, if you
18 A. Yes, I do recall.
19 Q. All right. Would you please tell us whether -- from your
20 recollection what discussions were carried out with respect to this
21 particular information, assuming that discussions were held.
22 A. Well, we didn't exactly talk. Captain Nikolic was -- informed us
23 that these obligations were being carried out according to orders from the
24 Main Staff. And as for this clean up, this sanitary operation, there were
25 no comments made on it.
1 Q. All right. Did you ever become aware of any efforts that were
2 being made by the VRS for the reburial process?
3 A. Would you please be so kind as to repeat the question.
4 Q. All right. Were you aware of any activities by the VRS with
5 respect to reburying, removing the bodies and then reburying them in
6 various locations?
7 A. I wasn't aware of any such activities.
8 Q. Okay. Let me show you now another document, and this would be the
9 last. I'm going to show you a document that has come here before, that's
10 D132. It's been admitted into evidence. And it's an information from the
11 then-commander Lieutenant Colonel Ognjenovic, dated 4 July 1994. First of
12 all, could you please tell us whether you recall ever receiving this
13 document --
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Foundation. Before getting into a document, it's
17 proper for him to ask about the subject matter. And if the witness needs
18 refreshing, recollection or anything like that, that's the appropriate --
19 the proper way to do it. You don't just give people documents on direct
20 and start doing this. It's improper. And I have no objected because I
21 know the rules here can be a little different, but this is -- the proper
22 way to do it, I think, is what ought to be done in this particular case.
23 JUDGE LIU: The question in my mind is: What is this document to
24 do with this witness?
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, he was an assistant commander of the rear
1 services at the time, so he would have been in -- one of the
2 higher-echelon officers, shall I put it, within the brigade. The
3 Prosecution has maintained throughout and continues to maintain that this
4 genocidal plan existed way before the campaign against Srebrenica, and
5 particularly with respect to the issue of forcible transfer. The
6 Prosecution intends to argue, I believe - and I think I have a good-faith
7 basis to believe that - that this document demonstrates that there was an
8 ongoing policy by the Bratunac Brigade. They further intend to argue that
9 Mr. Blagojevic, when he took over of the Bratunac Brigade, was carrying
10 out a policy --
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour --
12 MR. KARNAVAS: And also --
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is inappropriate to be signalling in this
14 manner --
15 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm not --
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: And I think if we could be reminded. I'm sure
17 that the Court knows what this document is, and that this man was on duty
18 at the time. And I have no objection to Mr. Karnavas asking questions
19 about it, but to go on and to signal the whole theory of his case and
20 misstating the Prosecution's is inappropriate.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Put this document to the witness. And if you
22 have any questions, you may ask.
23 MR. KARNAVAS:
24 Q. The Prosecution has cited this document in its indictment.
25 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. It's not relevant what
1 the Prosecution says.
2 MR. KARNAVAS: It certainly is.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: He seems to be making it in some way personal,
4 which is not appropriate.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Hardly personal.
6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think this is the last document,
7 and you just put your question to this witness concerning with this
8 document. Let's finish today's sitting.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.
10 Q. In light of your position as an assistant commander, or one of the
11 assistant commanders in the Bratunac Brigade, do you recall ever seeing
12 this document from your commander, your then-commander,
13 Lieutenant Colonel Ognjenovic? And if you don't recall, that's okay. But
14 do you recall --
15 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, Your Honour. The last time we did
16 this, I think we heard the answer. And it's -- look at his eyes. He
17 knows what he's doing.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm trying to help out.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah, thank you.
20 JUDGE LIU: Ask a question and let's finish this sitting.
21 MR. KARNAVAS:
22 Q. Do you recall seeing this document ever?
23 A. Yes, I do. I have seen it.
24 Q. Okay. Now, did you see it back then when it was generated; that
25 is, in 1994?
1 A. Yes, 1994.
2 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to paragraph number 2 where
3 there's some language there with respect to the enclave of Srebrenica.
4 All right. Where it says, and this would be the last paragraph on
5 paragraph number 2. On the English version it's page 3. I'm going to
6 read just a portion of it. It says: "We must attain our final goal, an
7 entirely Serbian Podrinje, the enclave of Srebrenica, Zepa, and Gorazde
8 must be defeated militarily."
9 And then it goes on: "We must continue to arm, train, discipline,
10 and prepare the RS Army for the execution of this crucial task: The
11 expulsion of Muslims from the Srebrenica enclave. There will be no
12 retreat when it comes to the Srebrenica enclave; we must advance. The
13 enemy's life has to be made unbearable and their temporary stay in the
14 enclave impossible so that they leave the enclave en masse as soon as
15 possible, realising that they cannot survive there."
16 My question to you, sir, is: Was this the policy as you knew it
17 to be back then in 1994, pursuant to information that was issued by your
18 then-commander, Lieutenant Colonel Ognjenovic?
19 A. No.
20 Q. What is the significance of this information, if anything? If
22 A. Well, I will give you my own opinion.
23 Lieutenant Colonel Ognjenovic ardently covered the rank of colonel. He
24 kept complaining of how he was successfully commanding the brigade but was
25 unable to obtain the rank of colonel, and this is something that he always
1 said at meetings with the superior command. So I heard that
2 General Mladic had told him: If, with your unit, namely the brigade, you
3 enter Srebrenica, you will indeed be conferred the rank of colonel. So
4 from this memo, one can see that this paper under item 1 actually
5 indicates that this would ensue. So this is an information memorandum for
6 the Main Staff in order to boost the morale of the troops and of me,
7 myself, although we -- none of us believed in it at the time.
8 Q. Okay. Thank you.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions.
10 Q. Thank you very much, sir. I believe there may be some questions
11 from Mr. Stojanovic's lawyer. I'm sure the Prosecution will have some
12 questions and I've been given a note that the Colonel Jankovic document
13 which was dated 13/7/2004 [sic] is D164 for identification purposes.
14 That's all. Thank you very much, sir.
15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
16 Well, Witness, I'm afraid that you have to stay in The Hague for
17 another day. As I did for other witnesses, I have to tell you that during
18 your stay in The Hague you are under oath, so do not tell anybody and do
19 not let anybody talk to you about your testimony. Do you understand that?
20 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
22 The hearing is adjourned.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
24 at 1.49 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
25 the 18th day of May, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.