1 Wednesday, 2 June 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number
7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
9 Good morning, Witness.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
11 JUDGE LIU: Did you have a good rest last night?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did.
13 JUDGE LIU: Please sit down.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to start?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ready.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
18 Mr. Karnavas.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning, Mr. President, Judge Argibay.
20 WITNESS: WITNESS DP-105 [Resumed]
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 Examined by Mr. Karnavas: [Continued]
23 Q. Good morning, sir. I want to pick up where we left off yesterday.
24 And as you will recall, we were speaking about your activities of
25 searching the terrain. Now, let me show you a document what has
1 been -- what is marked as P490. It has been admitted into evidence
2 already. If you could look at that. Do you recognise this document, sir?
3 A. I do.
4 Q. Okay. And what is this document?
5 A. A daily combat report of the 15th of July, 1995.
6 Q. All right. Now, is there any -- could you please direct our
7 attention to any relevant paragraph with respect to your unit.
8 A. Here in part of para 2, it says that on that day our forces were
9 still searching the terrain in accordance with your order, and the line is
10 now from Lupoglav, Susnjari, Prijanska Kosa and so on. In relation to
11 this, I can say that on that day, as far as I remember, we did not emerge
12 at this Lupoglav feature or Susnjari.
13 Q. So in looking at this daily combat report, is this accurate or
14 inaccurate with respect to what your troops were involved in?
15 A. This is inaccurate.
16 Q. All right.
17 A. It is inaccurate.
18 Q. All right. Thank you. Let me show you now what is marked as
19 P496. First we're going to look at it. Let me know when you're ready to
20 discuss it.
21 A. I did not understand the question. When did I review what?
22 Q. When you finished reviewing it, let me know so we can discuss
23 this. Do you recognise this document?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What is this document?
1 A. It is a daily combat report addressed to the command of the Drina
2 Corps, dated 16th July 1995.
3 Q. Now, if I could direct your attention to paragraph 1. Is that
4 relevant in any way to where your units were located, and if so, could you
5 please discuss it.
6 A. It was relevant only inasmuch as it happened in the area of my
7 right neighbour, right-hand neighbour, the 4th Battalion.
8 Q. Were you involved at all in those activities that are mentioned in
9 paragraph 1?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Now, for the record I want you to read slowly the first sentence
12 of the first paragraph so we have a correct translation. The first
13 sentence of the second paragraph.
14 A. "Part of the units continued to search the terrain in the area
15 they had been given orders for."
16 Q. Okay. Let me stop you here. In the English translation it
17 reflects that the units are searching the terrain in the above areas that
18 are mentioned in paragraph 1. Is that what this reflects in the original
19 version, in the original language?
20 A. No, that's not what it says. This relates primarily to the prior
21 order, which we discussed yesterday, the order for terrain search.
22 Q. Okay. Thank you. I just wanted to point out this rather
23 significant error in translation of this particular portion, which may be
24 misleading. Anything else that's relevant to your particular unit, your
1 A. One item says that preparations have been made to send two
2 companies belonging to the 1st Zvornik Brigade and the reconnaissance or
3 scouting platoon of the 1st Infantry Battalion. As for this scouting
4 platoon or reconnaissance platoon, I can say that they were not sent to
5 the Zvornik area.
6 Q. Okay. So that's incorrect as well?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. Now, I believe it says here that a company was
9 engaged -- if we look into paragraph 2, I believe it's the third sentence.
10 It says: "Since the MUP, Ministry of Interior unit, was pulled out this
11 morning from the Kravica/Konjevic Polje direction, a company was engaged
12 at 1400 hours to block this direction."
13 My question, sir, is: Were you ordered or did you send a company
14 to carry out those activities, as reflected in this daily combat report?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. Thank you. I don't have anything more on this document.
17 Now, I want to go through some more reports before we go back to the map
18 that we were discussing yesterday. And if I could show you what has been
19 marked as P484. I'll be discussing that with a couple of other documents.
20 If you could look at that very briefly, do you know what this document is,
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And could you please tell us what it is.
24 A. This is a request for the relief of units that are part of the
25 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade.
1 Q. All right. Now, why is that significant at all to the
2 Bratunac Brigade and perhaps even more specifically to your battalion?
3 A. It is significant in as much a part of our forces were engaged in
4 that area, the area of Trnovo, and it will become important later at a
5 point when I received orders to send some of my troops there. However,
6 since orders replaced each other very quickly, during that day, on the
7 16th, I received a number of orders that superceded each other; in other
8 words, they could not be executed for executive reasons, because the
9 developments unfolded very quickly. So we did not simply have time to
10 carry out some of these orders.
11 Q. Well, that's -- in reference to what you just noted, let me show
12 you the next document which is P11 -- P111. If you can look at that very
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you recognise what it says, sir?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. And what is this document?
18 A. This is an order for the relief of temporary troops.
19 Q. Now, is that related to the previous document that we were looking
20 at that was dated July 14th that was addressed to the Drina Corps?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. All right. And I'm told that the document you are holding is
23 P493, so that's a correction from P111.
24 All right. Now, is there anything specific related to your TO
1 A. Yes. Some things are relevant. I had to single out part of my
2 troops for the execution of that task as well as part of the commanding
3 officers who were to command that unit.
4 Q. All right. Now, let me show you -- let me show you another
5 document, P498, while keeping that document in front of you. If you could
6 look at this. This is an order, is it not, dated 16 July 1995? The
7 relevant paragraph will be paragraph number 7, but first let's just go
8 through the documents.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So this is an order, is it not, dated 16 July 1995?
11 A. It is.
12 Q. So this is a day later than the previous document that we've seen
13 that was marked 493. Correct?
14 And if we go to paragraph number 7, can we draw any conclusions
15 from that particular paragraph, sir?
16 A. We can draw a specific conclusion, as it is specified here, troops
17 from the 1st Infantry Battalion designated to replace personnel at Trnovo
18 will become part of the 1st Infantry Battalion, that means they will not
19 be sent to any other axis or any other mission.
20 Q. Okay. So did they go to Trnovo?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Where did they go?
23 A. They went, together with me, to Zepa.
24 Q. Now, we've heard testimony in this courtroom that sometime on the
25 13th or 14th, the chief of staff, which would have been Major Pajic,
1 Novica Pajic, had gone. And here, both of these documents reflect that
2 they are directed to the chief of staff. Can you help us out here?
3 What's going on? If the chief of staff isn't there, why are these
4 documents being directed to him?
5 A. I'm not quite clear on that, why he is specifically named in this
6 order, because the order applied to my unit. And in the left bottom
7 corner, as would be usual, it is not indicated to whom the order was
8 addressed. It says the order was addressed to the chief of staff, only
9 for the purpose of archiving the document.
10 Q. All right. Now, speaking of archiving, I just want to go back
11 because I want to pick up a point that we left off yesterday at the end of
12 the day, and that would be with respect to the order of July 14, 1995,
13 regarding the searching of the terrain. And that would be 48 -- P483.
14 When you see the document, you will know which document I am referring to.
15 As you may recall, this was the document that I had you focus your
16 attention on paragraph 1 and thereafter mark on the map that was D186, the
17 coordinates of which you were ordered to search. Do you recall that, sir?
18 A. I recall that.
19 Q. All right. Now, in looking at this particular order, again we see
20 that it's addressed to the chief of staff on 14 July 1995, the date when
21 in fact he is supposed to have been out of the Bratunac Brigade area. Can
22 you tell us a little bit about that. Why is it addressed to him?
23 A. I don't understand why it was addressed to him, because the person
24 wasn't there. He could have no direct insight or provide his personal
25 contribution to that activity. The only possible explanation for
1 including this addressee is archiving, as I said. But in this order,
2 which is rather particular, both in the sense of its meaning and in the
3 sense that it doesn't comply with the format prescribed by administrative
4 and office rules in the former JNA which we followed, it is not indicated
5 in the left bottom corner to whom it was copied.
6 Q. All right. Why is that important, to whom it would be copied,
7 that is, distributed to?
8 A. It is important to know to whom it was copied for the simple
9 reason that it would confirm that a document was drafted in so many copies
10 and that it was accessible to people to whom it was addressed. Sometimes
11 it would not be actually made available to the persons indicated, but it
12 was important to know that it was done in that many copies.
13 Q. All right. Well, you've indicated one more shortcoming in this
14 particular document, that's on top of the ones that we spoke about in you
15 pointing out the map yesterday or being requested to search terrain that
16 was already free terrain. Could you please give us an explanation how
17 someone could draft such an order with so many shortcomings.
18 A. This could have been drafted only by somebody who was
19 insufficiently trained in the military sense. I can give you one more
20 detail. When you designate a battalion's command post, you usually
21 specify whether it is a school building or a junction of roads or an
22 agricultural cooperative, any other building. You usually specify, for
23 instance, the command post for the 2nd Battalion is designated as Potocari
24 village; it is a huge village. And the commander of that battalion could
25 be quite confused. Where is he supposed to set up his command post? As I
1 read this, I cannot but assume that somebody from the operative organ of
2 the brigade wrote this and that he or she did so only pro forma.
3 Q. Okay. Before we talk about that, picking up on the last point
4 where you said under number 2, if forward command post or the command post
5 for the 2nd Battalion is village of Potocari, why don't you make that
6 distinction for paragraph number 1 where it says the command post of the
7 1st Battalion will be the village of Cizmici? There it designates a
8 village as well.
9 A. Here again, the location is unspecified, but Cizmici village is
10 much smaller than Potocari, so I chose Potocari to better illustrate the
11 deficiencies of paragraph 2.
12 Q. Do you know who in the operations would be -- during that time
13 would be tasked with drafting these sorts of orders or these sorts of
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Could you please tell us who the person would have been or might
17 have been?
18 A. Most often it was done by Lieutenant, Junior Lieutenant Micic,
20 Q. Was he a trained officer in the sense as you had been trained,
21 that is, with four years secondary military education, plus four years of
22 academy, formal military academy education?
23 A. No. He had finished only secondary military school and at one
24 point in time he was promoted in an extraordinary procedure to an
25 officer's rank.
1 Q. Why would he have been promoted under such a procedure, in light
2 of his rather slim military educational background?
3 A. I cannot say exactly what the reason was, the proposals were made
4 by the then-brigade command. But I would like to say that -- I don't want
5 to say that he was a bad officer, he was not diligent and responsible;
6 however, his level of education did not provide him with broad views
7 enabling him to deal with this kind of problems, for instance, with
8 designating command posts.
9 Q. It says here in the translation that he was a bad, I believe you
10 meant to say he was not a bad -- is that correct, that he was not a bad
11 officer or he was a --
12 A. No, I didn't want to say that he was a bad officer. I heard he
13 was a good, disciplined, conscientious, and responsible officer, apart
14 from the fact that he lacked sufficient training and knowledge for the
15 duties that he discharged.
16 Q. All right. Now, while we're still at this I want to cover a
17 couple of points. First of all, do you know a Nikola Gajic?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. Would you please tell us who this gentleman is.
20 A. He was a soldier with my battalion for a certain period of time,
21 and he was a member of my reconnaissance platoon.
22 Q. Did you at any point in time authorise him to leave his position
23 and to go into Kravica?
24 A. No, I didn't, either to him or to anyone else.
25 Q. All right. Now, he was asked concretely about whether there was
1 any activity, combat activity after July 11, 1995. And just for my
2 colleagues here, that could be found on page 3.353 when Ms. Davis
3 questioned Mr. Gajic, specifically line 9 and onwards for the record, for
4 those who may want to check the accuracy of my paraphrasing.
5 Prior to July 9th -- July 11th, you told us there was some
6 activity. You told us about July 9th when one of your men stepped on a
7 landmine. Is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And if my memory serves me correct, those who were involved in
10 those activities were part of the reconnaissance unit, or am I wrong?
11 A. No, you are not wrong. They were members of the reconnaissance
13 Q. Now, lest there be any misunderstanding, the question is,
14 directing your attention to the specific date of July 11th. Okay. From
15 then onwards, was there any other combat activity that the reconnaissance
16 unit was engaged in to your understanding?
17 A. In the period between the 9th and the 11th July, if I understood
18 you correctly, this unit did not take any part in any operations. So on
19 the 9th, the 10th, and on the 11th, they never went the defence sector
20 covered by the battalion.
21 Q. Did this unit see any combat activity after the 11th? And I'm
22 talking about the 11th, the 12th, the 13th.
23 A. They took part on the 12th. After they entered the Cizmici
24 village on the 13th and the 14th, this unit was there.
25 Q. But was that -- was there any combat activity, shooting, killings,
1 confronting the enemy during that period, aside from the movement that
2 you've indicated?
3 A. There was no confrontation with the enemy, but let me tell you
4 I -- that on the 12th I entered the sector where the abandoned enemy
5 trenches were in order to provide security there. So that means that we
6 did have to have some combat operations in order to prevent any surprises,
7 because we couldn't be absolutely sure that there wasn't anyone, any
8 enemy, awaiting us in the trenches. So sometimes we did open small arms
9 fire, and this is a normal procedure under such circumstances, as a kind
10 of prevention. And we were duty-bound to do that. However, direct
11 confrontation with the enemy did not take place on the 12th, or the 13th,
12 or the 15th or the 16th of July.
13 Q. All right. Thank you. Lastly, Mr. Gajic, when he was here, had
14 marked a map. So I would like to show you this map. It was entered into
15 as an exhibit as P162. If you could please look at it. Incidentally,
16 before we -- before I have you discuss the map, could you please tell us
17 whether Mr. Gajic had any military training, formal academic military
18 training or schooling, such as you.
19 A. No. I think that he only went through regular military training,
20 just like everybody else, but no other military training other than that.
21 Q. We're talking about the JNA training, the compulsory training that
22 one would have gone through in the former Yugoslavia?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. Now, if you could look at this map, sir, and when you're
25 ready to discuss it after you orient yourself.
1 A. I am ready.
2 Q. Okay. Now, according to Mr. Gajic's testimony when he was here
3 back on 23 October 2003 being questioned by Ms. Davis on page 3.367, line
4 6, he was asked to assign the location to the battalion command and the
5 answer was the letter B. So could you please first look at the letter B
6 and tell us whether Mr. Gajic was right when he noted whether that was the
7 location of the battalion command.
8 A. He was wrong.
9 Q. All right. What location has he marked?
10 A. I can't see clearly which feature this is, but it's a place
11 unknown to me, and I'm not aware that the command post had ever been set
12 up there, nor could it have been according to the rules. Because this is
13 the right flank of the battalion, and it's illogical to put it there.
14 Normally the command post is set up in the middle of the defence sector.
15 Q. All right. Now, can you look at those lines and try to figure out
16 what those lines mean, that is the C, the A, the D. Do you know what he
17 is marking there?
18 A. I can only guess. It seems that there are some segments and
19 elements here that are unclear to me.
20 Q. All right. Such as?
21 A. If we --
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.
23 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I'm objecting to this. The witness said
24 he can only guess. It's purely speculative.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I think you have to change the form of your
1 question. You cannot ask the witness to guess what is in another
2 witness's mind.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. All right.
4 Q. Well, let's look at what is marked as this line C. Do you see
5 that? Do you recognise that terrain, sir?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right. And could you please tell us what is being marked
9 A. I can only recognise some features. Basically this is unclear to
10 me what it is -- this is all about.
11 Q. All right. Where was the 1st Battalion located? Is it located on
12 any of these lines?
13 A. Are you referring to point C?
14 Q. I'm looking -- I'm asking you to look at the map and tell me where
15 on the map would there -- the battalion would have been positioned at that
16 point in time. And we're going to move -- let's just say from the 6th
18 A. All right. From the 6th onwards the Lomenac creek, Gajici,
19 Lemesac, and then there's another feature here called Stolice. And then
20 trig point -- I can't see clearly here, but it's called Vresinje. Then it
21 descends towards - just let me see here, just a moment, please - to
22 Jezestica and towards trig point 555, called Ilina Bara.
23 Q. Now, is there a line on the map currently that designates where
24 the -- as you've described it, where the 1st Battalion would have been
25 located on the 6th? Are one of these lines designated, as you have
1 described it?
2 A. Only partly. Only a small portion of it.
3 Q. Okay. In other words, there isn't one?
4 A. No, in this sense.
5 Q. Okay. Now, could you please tell us where the 1st Battalion or
6 elements of the 1st Battalion moved to on the 12th. I believe there was
7 testimony that they moved on the 12th and then on to the 13th.
8 A. Yes. I will start from the right-hand flank, from the feature
9 555. And as far as Vresinje, there was no movement. As for the remaining
10 units were moved from Vresinje sector to Cizmici village. And
11 approximately up to the Vjeceljska Rijeka. That was what took place on
12 the 12th. Then on the 13th, we linked up with the 2nd Battalion and we
13 went to the sector around 520 trig point, that is the Pale sector.
14 Q. Now, is any of that reflected on any of these lines? And if so,
15 which line?
16 A. Only this part, which in fact remained static, is indicated, that
17 is from trig point 555 to Vresinje; whereas, the remaining hasn't been
19 Q. All right. And the searching of the terrain that you indicated, I
20 believe you began searching some of the terrain on the 16th. Because the
21 15th, it was raining, and you indicated that you got the order late on the
22 15th. So can you show us which line, if any, would reflect the searching
23 of the terrain that was carried out.
24 A. There is no line reflecting the direction of our movement at that
25 time, except for this part here where we eventually concentrated in the
1 areas around the villages of Jaglici and Lupoglav on the 16th.
2 Q. Okay. Now, if we look at what is designated as D, can you
3 identify that location for us.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what is that location?
6 A. That's the village of Kravica.
7 Q. All right. How close were you to Kravica?
8 A. Well, as the crow flies it would be at least 5 kilometres;
9 whereas, on the ground it's a much bigger distance.
10 Q. All right. And again, where was your command post? If you could
11 point that out. Can you locate your command post? You indicated that B
12 was not it. Could you perhaps mark it with a -- with an E, where your
13 command post would be.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.
15 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I believe this was marked by another
16 witness. I'm not sure if it would be appropriate for him to mark the same
17 map at this stage.
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I agree with you.
19 You have to furnish the witness with another copy.
20 MR. KARNAVAS: I have, Your Honour. I have.
21 JUDGE LIU: With different numbers.
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes. It's a little early in the morning,
23 Your Honour, but I did catch myself on that.
24 I have another one. Here you go.
25 This can be marked for identification as D188/1.
1 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]
2 MR. KARNAVAS:
3 Q. So did you mark it? Okay. Now --
4 A. I think that this is rather imprecise. The tolerance would be
5 plus/minus 100 metres to the right or the left, but this is approximately
6 the location. And on top of that, the copy is rather bad, but definitely
7 it wasn't the position B.
8 Q. All right. Now, you told us it's approximately 5 kilometres away.
9 Could you please tell us what the terrain looked like.
10 A. Behind my lines, the terrain was before that, laden with mines,
11 and we avoided the whole area, particularly on the right flank. I can't
12 say that it was totally inaccessible, but it was a difficult terrain to
13 negotiate. It's a hilly land and crises-crossed with ravines and creeks
14 which can be seen from the map as well.
15 Q. Now, the E that you've designated, that's the command post at what
16 point in time?
17 A. That was the command post all the way up to the 12th of July.
18 Q. And after the 12th of July, where was the new command post placed?
19 A. In the village of Cizmici sector.
20 Q. And that would be where the C is located?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, from Cizmici to Kravica, what's the distance?
23 A. Well, it's a -- very far away, approximately perhaps 10 or 15
24 kilometres. I don't see the scale here that I can -- that can help me.
25 And this is the distance as the crow flies; on the ground, it's much
1 farther. Because when one goes on the ground, you have to go uphill and
3 Q. Now, looking at D, which is Kravica, could you please tell us
4 where would Glogova be. Would it be heading west or heading east?
5 A. To the east.
6 Q. And is it possible for you to approximate where it would be or to
7 find where it is on the map?
8 A. Glogova is a big village or, rather, the whole area is called
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. As a kind of geographical term.
12 Q. All right. Were you ever in Glogova during this period?
13 A. No, I wasn't.
14 Q. All right. Well, maybe you could help us out here, because I want
15 to show you a portion of testimony that was given by a Dragan Mirkovic in
16 this case with respect to what Mr. Ruez had told him. And I'm going to be
17 referring to pages 7.959 to 7.960, testimony taken on 21st April 2004.
18 And I'll be starting somewhere around line 23 for the full context, for
19 those who might want to look at the authenticity of it, they can go back
20 as far as 7.957, line 10 on that page. But we're referring to the issue
21 of Glogova.
22 Here, Mr. Mirkovic was asked a series of questions, and then at
23 one point, if we go on to page 7.960, Mr. Usher, apparently
24 Mr. -- according to Mr. Mirkovic who testified under oath, Mr. Ruez, who
25 was an investigator - I believe you met him when you were being questioned
1 by Mr. Butler as well - told Mr. Mirkovic: "Mr. Nikolic forgot to steal
2 these corpses and transfer them elsewhere." He's speaking about Glogova.
3 "Here we found the corpses of 12 people who had been killed. They were
4 tied two together with barbed wire and all shot in the forehead. Do you
5 know anything about this?"
6 And his answer was: "And I said, I didn't. It's possible, he
7 said," that is Ruez saying to him, "it's possible that this was done by
8 Mr. Lazar Ostojic and his soldiers, and he pointed with his hand, that's
9 where they were at the line. And these are probably people who
10 surrendered to the soldiers of Lazar Ostojic or they were caught in the
11 woods fleeing from Srebrenica. And these are the men who were killed."
12 This is what Mr. Ruez tells Mr. Mirkovic when they are in Glogova.
13 Now, let me show you -- let me share with you also some diagrams
14 that were made by Mr. Mirkovic. These are for the ELMO, just so you can
15 have your bearings, then I'll pose the questions. We can look at -- in
16 particular, if you were to look at the series ending with 42 or 44 or
17 both, if we can put them next to each other. This would give you an
18 indication as to where they were at the time, keeping in mind that they
19 are on the road between Bratunac, Konjevic Polje, by Glogova.
20 Now, in looking at these diagrams and knowing the terrain, could
21 you please tell us were you lines at any point in time in that vicinity
22 where Mr. Ruez was claiming?
23 A. By moving my positions on the 12th, I absolutely went farther away
24 from that area.
25 Q. All right. Is there any reason -- can you think of any reason why
1 Mr. Ruez would make such slanderous and irresponsible comments to
2 Mr. Mirkovic?
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa?
4 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, that's -- I mean the witness can't
5 possibly answer that question; it's totally speculative.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, the question may be speculative, but they
8 were slanderous, nonetheless, and irresponsible comments.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's very difficult to say at this stage.
10 MR. KARNAVAS:
11 Q. Were your troops at any point in time anywhere near there, that
12 area on the 12th, the 13th, the 10th, the 11th, the 9th, the 6th, anywhere
13 where Mr. Ruez claims your line was located?
14 A. Not in the close proximity, they weren't. I think that this was
15 nonsense and that I think that he was only assuming without having any
16 evidence that Mr. Ruez was only supposing that my soldiers were there.
17 But I'm deeply convinced that this is rubbish. I apologise for using such
18 vocabulary, but I am really upset that he has labelled both me and my
19 soldiers in that way because I have never given, nor will I ever give an
20 order of that kind.
21 Q. All right. Now, I want to show you the map -- go back to the map
22 of D186. And we have this original map. We can take those other ones
23 away. Okay. If I could focus your attention again to where your lines
24 were, and this time I would like to make reference to a report. It's
25 called the "Srebrenica Military Narrative" by Mr. Butler. If I could
1 make some reference. I have the relevant pages for the ELMO.
2 First -- well, perhaps we can -- we'll have to work out the logistics
3 here. (redacted)
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, you have to bear in mind that this
16 witness is a protected witness.
17 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.
18 JUDGE LIU: Is it possible for this document not to show --
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, it's possible. Yes, absolutely.
20 Absolutely -- well, I was doing it for the benefit of everyone here.
21 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.
22 MR. KARNAVAS:
23 Q. All right. Now, did the 1st -- do you know whether the
24 1st Infantry Battalion command controlled or manned any part of the
25 Bratunac/Konjevic Polje road?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Now, it goes on to state that the "1st Battalion had a historical
3 responsibility for this particular area from just west of Bratunac toward
4 Kravica. Since mid-1993 when the line stabilised and after the
5 declaration of the Srebrenica safe area, this unit was responsible for
6 this geographical area. This remained true through at least 16th July
8 And then it goes on: "However, while responsible for part of the
9 area, Kravica and Sandici fell specifically in the zone of the
10 4th Infantry Battalion."
11 Now, let me focus your attention on this. Going back to what he
12 says that: "There was a historical responsibility for this particular
13 area from just west of Bratunac toward Kravica," did this battalion have
14 this "historical responsibility," as Mr. Butler would have us believe?
15 A. I think it sounds as an exaggeration, this poetical term
16 "historical responsibility." I simply don't understand it. Some areas
17 are mentioned here. I said a couple of words about that yesterday, but I
18 can say again; a battalion does not have a zone of responsibility. Not
19 even the brigade has one. A battalion has an area of defence. And
20 whether it can be held responsible for a certain part of the area of
21 defence depends on whether we have enough power. We were not even able,
22 in our specific case, to control even that road. I, for instance,
23 experienced an ambush on that road where some of my men were killed. The
24 road was impossible to control, so that claim absolutely doesn't stand up
25 to scrutiny.
1 Q. All right. Now, if we look at the map, just so we understand
2 this, this historical responsibility that Butler claims the 1st Battalion
3 had, he says: "Just west from Bratunac toward Kravica."
4 Can you find where Bratunac is and we can go westward from
5 Bratunac towards Kravica, so at least we can see where Butler has placed
6 your historical responsibility to.
7 A. Bratunac, the Bratunac town is here. My battalion was on these
8 positions. The 4th Battalion was there. And Kravica is right there. So
9 it was even behind the lines of the 4th Battalion, to the right of the 4th
10 Battalion. And even if you look far into the depth, Kravica could not
11 count as a part of our area of defence.
12 Q. But just again, because we need to have a clear record, first of
13 all, point Bratunac out.
14 A. [Witness complies]
15 Q. All right. And we will be able to locate Bratunac on the map.
16 And just refresh our memories. Where were your lines as of the 12th of
17 July, before you moved them, that is?
18 A. Before the 6th, they were in Lomenac Brook, exclusive; Pajici;
19 Lemesac; there is another feature here, Stolice; trig point 532, Vresinje;
20 and over here is Jezestica; and trig point 555, Ilina Bara, exclusive.
25 Q. Okay. Incidentally, when you were -- you were questioned, were
1 you not, by the Office of the Prosecution?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you recall Mr. Butler being there?
4 A. I think he was.
5 Q. Were you ever asked any questions with respect to -- with respect
6 to where the lines were at the time when he asked you?
7 A. Yes. That's one of these maps that I marked, if that's what you
9 Q. Okay. All right. Because we're going to get to another map at
10 some point. Now, I want to look at another section of Mr. Butler's report
11 and ask you some questions. And this is with respect to -- and I'm
12 referring to page 57 and 58. In particular, I want to read you a portion
13 and see if you could help us out here. I'm reading from page 58, top of
14 the page. This is part of paragraph 6.40. And it's in the -- again, the
15 narrative. And I don't have the number available at this time, for the
16 record, but we'll get it. It says: "On the basis of this order" -- this
17 is the order of the 13th that we looked at earlier, "the command of the
18 Bratunac Brigade issued order 453-2 dated 13th of July." That was the
19 order we looked at earlier this morning. "This order signed by the
20 brigade commander, Colonel Vidoje Blagojevic, directed all four battalions
21 to conduct sweep operations in various areas, specific to the 1st and 4th
22 Battalion operating to the south of the Bratunac/Konjevic Polje road, the
23 following instructions were given."
24 Now, based on the order that we looked earlier, were you asked to
25 conduct any sweeping operations south of the Bratunac/Konjevic Polje road?
1 A. I don't understand, first of all, this term "clearing" or
2 "sweeping." What is it supposed to imply? If a ground search, terrain
3 search, is meant, our task was to search the terrain to the south of the
5 Q. All right. And then he goes on to say that -- he specifically
6 quotes from the order that we read which says: "The 1st Infantry
7 Battalion will search the terrain of the former enclave of Srebrenica on
8 the right side." And it talks about the junction of "Bratunac/Konjevic
9 Polje/Jezestica road K316."
10 So are we talking south of the Bratunac/Konjevic Polje road? If
11 you look at those trig points from the order that we've discussed earlier
12 and you look at the map, is that south of the Konjevic Polje road?
13 A. Yes, it is south.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, I want to go to the -- another exhibit
15 that has come in. And this would be --
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, are these exhibits related to the
17 Butler report?
18 MR. KARNAVAS: No, this is a separate exhibit.
19 JUDGE LIU: Time for a break.
20 MR. KARNAVAS: Oh, I apologise. I didn't notice.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
22 Well, we'll have a break and we'll resume at quarter to 11.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, are you finishing your direct
1 examination in this session?
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Soon, yes.
3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
4 MR. KARNAVAS: This session.
5 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.
6 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.
7 Q. Just before we -- while we still have the map there, could you
8 tell us -- you told us where your lines were. Could you show us where
9 your second echelon units were located, since you were in a decisive
11 A. I didn't even have the second echelon. I did not have a company
12 in this second defence line.
13 Q. And that would be necessary, would it not?
14 A. Of course it would.
15 Q. Okay. Thank you for clarifying that.
16 Now, if we could go through what has been marked as P91. And if I
17 could just focus your attention.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: We won't be needing that map any longer -- at least
19 we won't be needing it right now.
20 Q. If I could focus your attention to July 3rd, and perhaps we can
21 keep this off the ELMO. But just look at July 3rd. Do you see the first
22 paragraph in these notes dated 3 July 1995?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. And is that an accurate description of the events as they
25 were unfolding?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is there anything that you wish to comment on with respect to this
3 meeting that took place on 3 July 1995?
4 A. Maybe this point on which I kept insisting all the time so that we
5 get assistance to reinforce the movements of military patrols around town
6 so that our defence line be filled to capacity at that moment.
7 Q. All right. Are you referring to -- well, for lack of a better
8 term deserters, or soldiers that would leave their lines without
10 A. Yes. We call it absent without official leave. There were many
11 reasons why people abandoned their positions. 80 per cent, for instance,
12 of my battalion were men whose houses had burnt during the attacks by the
13 28th Division, because as you well know all the villages around Bratunac
14 had been burned down by the forces commanded by Naser Oric. Those people
15 were very hard up. And it happened sometimes that they had to go home to
16 do some work in their fields so that they could earn a living. However,
17 that was a problem for me because I had to ensure combat readiness. And I
18 always lacked personnel to be engaged for this task.
19 Q. Incidentally, did you have any soldiers who came from villages
20 that were in the territories controlled by the Muslim forces that became
21 somewhat liberated after the 11th or 12th of July 1995?
22 A. I had some soldiers from those villages, too.
23 Q. All right. Now, if we could go on to July 5, 1995, it says -- the
24 point that I wish to bring out to your attention and perhaps you can
25 comment on it. It says: "The chief of staff will go to the 1st Battalion
1 to increase accuracy and direction of artillery fire."
2 This is 5 July 1995. Do you know whether the chief of staff did
3 in fact go or come to the 1st Infantry Battalion?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And could you please explain to us what exactly was the purpose,
6 what does this entail "increase accuracy and direction of artillery fire"?
7 What does that mean?
8 A. This is a usual organisational task that is performed in order to
9 arrange the firing system. Namely, particular weapons are assigned the
10 direction of fire or even an area of fire, depending on the calibre.
11 Decisions are made as to where to lay minefields as to have better
12 engineering on the positions, achieve coordination, things like that.
13 This is some kind of preventive work so that at a given moment the
14 complete system of defence could work properly.
15 Q. All right. If we could go on to July 16th, and incidentally let
16 me correct myself. This is D165 as opposed to P91, as I had made
17 reference to earlier, this document. Here it indicates that the: "1st
18 Battalion at full strength to be given task in the area of combat activity
19 in Zepa."
20 Did that occur?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. And I believe we talked about the previous orders that one
23 was for you to send men to Trnovo, and then it was cancelled the next day.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. All right. Now, if we could go to October 16, 1995, I want you to
2 look at -- if we could locate that page, please.
3 A. Right.
4 Q. If you could look at the very last sentence in this page. All
5 right. Do you see that, sir?
6 A. I see. Some things are illegible, but I can assume what it's
8 Q. Okay. Well, let me read it for you. Under "Nikolic," that would
9 be Momir Nikolic. I assume you knew the gentleman.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. And it says: "We are currently engaged in tasks issued by
12 the Army of Republika Srpska General Staff," and in parentheses it says,
13 "sanitation," though I believe in Srpski, it says asanacija. Do you see
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. And if we were to look above as to who attended the meeting, it
17 would appear that you were present at this meeting, were you not?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, I want you to roll back the film to 16 October 1995, if that
20 is possible, and please tell us what, if anything, you recall with respect
21 to this that was being mentioned by Mr. Nikolic at that period.
22 A. According to what I remember, yes.
23 Q. All right. Was there a discussion, sir?
24 A. No.
25 Q. All right. Were any questions posed as to why the General
1 Staff -- why Nikolic was engaged on activity or tasked by the General
2 Staff, since he was a member of the brigade?
3 A. No questions were asked of that kind.
4 Q. All right. Thank you.
5 Now, I want to go to another set of documents. First, we'll go to
6 a map, a map that has been prominently displayed, much discussed. And I'm
7 referring to P369. I believe I have the only copy. If we could look at
8 this map. First, perhaps we could -- if you could move it from -- and
9 then perhaps we could show the first part -- there you go. Thank you,
11 Now, have you seen this map before?
12 A. I cannot remember if maybe the Prosecution showed me the map
13 before, but the map basically says nothing to me.
14 Q. All right. We're going to go step by step. All right. First of
15 all, we see some official lettering on this and it reflects that this is
16 the -- this is a map of the zone of responsibility of the Bratunac
17 Brigade. And we see the name of a Colonel Zivanovic who was the
18 then-commander of the Drina Corps.
19 Do you see that, sir?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now -- so at least we have a title of this map, do we not? On
22 this map we have a title?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. It shows that Colonel Zivanovic -- it has Colonel Zivanovic's
25 name. Right?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Now, first of all during those days did you ever see this map?
3 A. No.
4 Q. All right. Secondly, is this map an official map?
5 A. No.
6 Q. First, tell us why it is your opinion that this is not an official
7 map, even though it says "zone of responsibility, Colonel Zivanovic." We
8 have those names; we have the title.
9 A. Well, the many shortcomings in the map. First of all, if it had
10 been approved, it should have been signed by Colonel Zivanovic and
11 certified by a stamp.
12 Secondly --
13 Q. Polako, polako. Where would that be? Where would the signature
14 be and where would the stamp be?
15 A. The signature would be here next to the name, so would the stamp.
16 Q. Okay. Next. What's the next problem with this map?
17 A. The next flaw in the upper right-hand corner, there should be, in
18 addition to what there is already, the degree of confidentiality, it
19 should have said when the map was -- began and when it was completed. And
20 also it should specify the period of how long this map should be kept on
21 file. That is also missing.
22 Q. All right. So it would have a beginning and an end date?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. What about the title? I mean, it's large --
25 A. The title is incorrect because a brigade, as a joint tactical
1 unit, is not assigned any area of responsibility. If it is on the
2 defence, it has a defence zone or vice versa, an offensive zone.
3 According to our rules that we adhered to and that we still adhere to,
4 only these two categories exist for a brigade.
5 Q. All right. Well, let's look at this geographical area that is
6 purported to be the zone of responsibility. And maybe you can help us out
7 here. First of all, where is the Drina River so we can orient ourselves?
8 A. [Witness complies]
9 Q. Okay. And that would be the boundary, would it not, between
10 Bosnia and Herzegovina and Serbia, the Drina?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. And so now if you're at the Drina, we're going westwards
13 into Bosnia. Correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. All right. Now --
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. If we look at the western, the western-most line on the zone. You
18 go all the way out west and you see the last -- the line, where is that
19 and what is that?
20 A. That's a zone that encompasses even the area of Srebrenica, which
21 is also illogical, which area until 1995 was not under our control.
22 Q. All right. Anything else that you see wrong with this?
23 A. First of all, this map should have been signed by an appropriate
24 officer or organ that drafted the map, including the title of the person
25 in charge and also the signature of the officer. This is also missing on
1 the map. In addition to that, these border lines that somebody has
2 drawn - and I don't know the product of whose imagination that is - I'm
3 not quite sure what they represent.
4 Q. Where would the signature, the name and the signature of the
5 author, the creator, the genius behind this map, where would that be?
6 A. The name of this genius should be in the bottom right-hand corner,
7 the signature, and plus a legend should be included here, indicating or
8 explaining what these markings mean.
9 Q. All right. Now, while we have the map here let me ask you: Are
10 there any specific rules that give guidance as to what is and what is not
11 an official map for military purposes?
12 A. Yes, there are rules.
13 Q. All right. Well, perhaps we can look at those rules to see
14 whether this map comports with the rules. Let me show you what is marked
15 as D184. And I would like you to look at the instructions on working maps
16 in the armed forces. Do you have them, sir, in front of you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, it says here that -- it has a date of 1979. Do you see that?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. If we go all the way up it says: "Federal Secretariat for
21 National Defence." And it's even a military secret.
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.
24 MS. ISSA: I'm just wondering if Mr. Karnavas can tell us where he
25 got this document. There's no ERN number on it.
1 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes.
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, this document we received from one of the
4 officers. We provided this document to the Office of the Prosecution
5 months ago; we translated it for them, so they have it. I'm trying to lay
6 the proper foundation at this point in time. But these are official rules
7 which were available to the Prosecution prior to us coming here today to
8 make reference to them.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, could you be more specific. You said: "We
10 received from one of the officers."
11 What does that mean?
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, it was one of the witnesses who has already I
13 believe come in through 92 bis. And if my memory serves me correct,
14 Your Honour, it was Officer Goran Lazarevic. He's on the list of 92 bis.
15 It's a book, just like all the other books that we've seen. Usually it's
16 red with a little star; that's common for that period. We had the
17 original book itself. We copied it, and then we had it translated.
18 So Mr. Butler, had he been -- you know, had he been careful
19 enough, he would have asked for that particular book as well because all
20 the other books he's copied we seem to have.
21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, is it a procedural issue?
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah, it just has to do with the history and just
23 to respond to that. We do not have -- and looking at our records haven't
24 received any of this stuff. We may be able to work that out between us
25 ourselves at the break. And we have had a very difficult time getting
1 these books over the years, extremely difficult. They are sensitive
2 books, so the comments about Mr. Butler are really not appropriate. But
3 we just want to know -- I don't doubt Mr. Karnavas has got these books
4 from some source and that they are likely legitimate. We would just like
5 to have some background on that.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
7 I think you furnish those books or at least a copy of this book to
8 the other party a month before?
9 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. When we received it -- we
10 received the physical book itself from the gentleman, and he's still
11 serving so he makes reference to them. We received it. We copied it. We
12 provided the original version. And then we had the -- we had it even
13 translated officially. And then we provided the translation to the Office
14 of the Prosecution. Now, had the Prosecutor asked me to provide or to
15 show them the original, I would have been able to borrow it. I don't have
16 it physically. I haven't purchased it; I don't know if I can. But I have
17 seen it. The gentleman, Goran Lazarevic, you will note in his 92 bis
18 statement, there's also a map attached to it. He makes reference to
19 this -- to these instructions as well. It won't be a problem if they want
20 to check the copies that we've provided. I can make arrangements to
21 have -- to show him the -- an original book.
22 JUDGE LIU: And those documents or instructions are the official
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, it's official -- it's bounded just like all
25 the other instructions we have on the brigade. I'm also going to be
1 referring to a battalion manual. This also has been translated and it
2 also has been provided to the -- this may have an ERN number, I think.
3 But yes, it's an official document. If you look at the -- if you just
4 compare the manuals, you'll see they all look the same. They all have the
5 little star and it all has the same language. And this is part of the JNA
6 material that the VRS used at that period of time. And that's what I was
7 going to go into.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: We never received one of those. It's probably
10 just an inadvertent discovery situation, which as we know both sides have.
11 And --
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Well --
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is -- it's not such an easy subject when
14 you're talking about these things. If I recollect one of the military
15 experts was highly critical of Mr. Butler regarding his discussion of
16 whether or not the rules and regulations of the former JNA were used or
17 used as guidelines for this case. And so I'm sure this witness can help
18 us on that subject. But it's a little difficult when we do not have the
19 books or the translations of the books. But again, I have no reason to
20 believe this has been any -- is anything more than an oversight and I
21 don't have any problem with us going forward as long as we can get
22 together when this is over and try to get this material.
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation.
24 Mr. Karnavas, you may proceed.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.
1 And I'll apologise to the Prosecution if they haven't received it.
2 I was told that they have received them. Obviously there is a glitch, but
3 that won't be a problem.
4 Q. If I could just draw your attention to that document, sir. First
5 of all, I want to lay a foundation. Have you seen these instructions on
6 working maps in the armed forces before?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. And where have you seen them, sir?
9 A. During my schooling and later in my career I used it while I
10 discharged the duties of an operational training organ.
11 Q. Now, do you know, sir, whether these instructions - and we
12 have -- they are dated 1979 - were they, in fact, being used by the VRS
13 back in 1995, or 1992 I should say?
14 A. Those who knew about this, applied it. And those who didn't, just
15 like those who drew these maps, didn't use it because obviously they
16 didn't know of it.
17 Q. Well, let me ask you what I'm trying to get more concretely. Did
18 the JNA adopt other instructions, other than the ones that you have in
19 front of you, or were these instructions the official instructions on
20 working maps for the JNA -- for the VRS? I apologise.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Now, you have the whole set. And just so that the
23 Prosecution knows, we asked only that the pertinent parts be copied -- I
24 mean be translated, although we have the full contents of this document,
25 the table of contents.
1 If you could look at the rules and point to us which rules are
2 pertinent when we want to determine whether this map, the one that we
3 looked at, has any validity or not.
4 A. On page 22, item 25 of the instructions.
5 Q. Okay. That would be on page 14 of the English. And we're looking
6 at numbered paragraph 25. Okay. Please comment then.
7 A. It specifies here exactly who and what kind of maps are made and
8 by whom. And it enumerates the working map of the commander, of the
9 staff, of combat army organs, of service organs, of political activity
10 organs. That's the one that we didn't have, in fact, because it was
11 outdated. Then the map of the intelligence organ, of the security organ,
12 for coordinated action, and what it says here in the translation, a clear
13 map with a question mark.
14 Q. Okay. Let's go step by step. This paragraph 25, this deals with
16 A. Paragraph 25 deals only with listing the types of maps prepared by
17 the then-JNA and afterwards by the VRS.
18 Q. All right. And then are there any paragraphs within these
19 instructions that specifically deal with each one of these items, that is,
20 what is a working map of the commander, a working map of the staff, and so
22 A. Yes. On page 23, para 28 explains what the working map of the
23 commander is.
24 Q. All right. Now, we don't need to go through all these paragraphs
25 that deal with what each map should contain. But in looking at the title
1 of this map, "zone of responsibility of the Bratunac Brigade," do you know
2 under which of these listed titles this map would fit in?
3 A. I wouldn't be able to say who could draw a zone of responsibility,
4 which, as I emphasised, did not exist as a term. So I have no idea who
5 could possibly have made this map.
6 Q. But what I'm asking you is: From A to J, which one of these would
7 this map fit in?
8 A. Under none of these items.
9 Q. All right. And prior to coming here today, have you looked over
10 the various paragraphs that give the detailed descriptions of what each of
11 these maps require, that is, the map of the commander, map of staff, map
12 of combat arms organs? Have you looked at that?
13 A. As I said, I used to use this instruction in my career, so I am
14 familiar with what each type of map under a specific title should contain.
15 Q. All right. Now, what other articles do you think are relevant or
16 would be relevant in determining the validity of this particular map?
17 A. On page 44, paragraph 74.
18 Q. All right. What does that tell us?
19 A. It says what the finalised working map should contain.
20 Q. Page 28, sir.
21 All right. If you give us one moment here to locate it. Maybe we
22 can move it up the ELMO a little bit -- no, because we're looking at 74.
23 Further up. There you go.
24 So -- and this is under -- this is again D184 for identification.
25 And we're looking at paragraph 74. And above it, it says: "Establishing
1 the working map."
2 All right. Now, could you please tell us why is 74 pertinent.
3 A. It is pertinent because it shows what in general the map, that any
4 working map must contain.
5 Q. All right. And in fact, if we go on to 75, 76, and 77, we even
6 see more detailed information and even some examples, do we not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, is there any other paragraph that is relevant, that might be
9 useful for us in determining whether the map has any value?
10 A. Paragraph 77 confirms what I said earlier, that each map must be
11 signed by stating the rank, the position, and the full name of the
12 signatory. What I would also like to add that if we were to analyse each
13 of the earlier drawn maps that I mentioned under para 25, and if we make a
14 comparison with this map, none of these maps can be considered proper
15 because the one that we have on the ELMO does not correspond to the
16 contents prescribed. It has no context as such. It has no basic
17 information. It does not say where the command post is, where the enemy
18 forces are. It is completely unclear. I really can't understand what can
19 anyone possibly deduce from this map, except for some lines that were
20 drawn on the map. But other than that, I just can't understand what it
21 represents itself. It has no content.
22 Q. All right. Now, you talked about that the map would also have a
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What would be in that legend?
1 A. A legend would contain certain explanations, depending on whether
2 it's for the defensive or offensive purposes. Sometimes it contains the
3 textual and table parts. In the legend it says how the task at hand is
4 marked, how the immediate task is designated, the direction of the
5 battalion movements. Some signs or marks for better understanding or
6 maybe some less ordinary signs that will help you read the map more
8 Q. All right. Thank you. I believe that's all I have with this
9 particular map and this instruction or these instructions.
10 And just a couple of houseclearing matters, because I want to be
11 as precise as we can. Let me show you what has been marked as D183. And
12 this is -- just, please, look at it first. Do you recognise this
13 document, sir?
14 A. I do.
15 Q. And could you please tell us what it is first.
16 A. It's a battalion manual specifying what kind of battalions it
17 refers to.
18 Q. Okay. All right. And have you seen it before?
19 A. Yes, I have.
20 Q. Okay. And where have you seen this document before?
21 A. During my schooling, that was one of the basic documents that we
22 studied. And after I finished my education, I frequently had this manual
23 in my hands.
24 Q. All right. Now -- and this would be the official manual, would it
25 not, that was being used at the time that you were in the
1 Bratunac Brigade?
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 Q. Now, in your testimony --
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.
5 MS. ISSA: Yes, Your Honour. Sorry for interrupting, but just
6 wondering where Mr. Karnavas got this manual from as well, just like to
7 know whether it's another source or the same source.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
9 MR. KARNAVAS: All right. Perhaps we can go into closed session.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session. I think that
11 private session is enough.
12 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 MR. KARNAVAS:
19 Q. Just for my peace of mind, would this be the kind of manual that
20 an officer would have with him in the field?
21 A. Yes, in peacetime.
22 Q. Okay. And again, is this the kind of manual that would be used at
23 the academy? So, for instance, if I went to Belgrade to the academy and I
24 wanted to get a hold of this manual, would I be able to?
25 A. You have a great aptitude for that academy; maybe one day you'll
1 graduate. But this is a basic book of rules which are followed in
2 following certain courses.
3 Q. All right. Just incidentally, when you were in Banja Luka, were
4 you ever asked to produce any working manuals, you know, that you would
5 use on a day-to-day basis?
6 A. No, that was not required.
7 Q. All right. Now, in your testimony - I just want to draw you back
8 to the point where we veered off - you've repeatedly indicated that
9 there's no such thing as a zone of responsibility. You talked about it
10 for -- at the brigade level and you also were very specific about it at
11 the battalion level. Could you point us out to any particular paragraphs
12 in this manual that may give any weight, support, to what you've told us
13 here under oath.
14 A. Yes, I can.
15 Q. Okay. And I want to go step by step. Just give us the number and
16 give us a little time to find it. Just tell us the number of the
17 paragraph; that's a little easier.
18 A. On page 164, para 320.
19 MR. KARNAVAS: That would be page 99, sir.
20 I take it the Prosecution can follow it with their copy of this
22 MS. ISSA: That's fine, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.
25 Q. Now, what is -- what area is it that you wish to direct our
1 attention to?
2 A. I wish to draw everyone's attention to the fact that it's
3 emphasised here that a battalion receives an area of defence, as opposed
4 to a zone of responsibility. It is emphasised that in depth it covers one
5 defence position of the high unit.
6 Also in para 321, which is the next paragraph, it is underlined
7 that: "The width of the defence area of the battalion on manoeuvrable
8 ground and on the centre of the defence may be 3 to 5 kilometres, whereas
9 the depth may be 2 to 3 kilometres."
10 Q. So when we're speaking about a defence area, we're talking about a
11 particular line that has a length and a depth. Is that what you're
12 telling us?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. And so I take it if we were to go back to the earlier
15 map, the earlier map that you had worked on yesterday, we would be able
16 to - and we're not going to go through it just yet - but if you were to go
17 through this, you would be able to show us the depth of your line. You
18 were able to draw the length. And then based on this, you would be able
19 to show us the depth of your line pursuant to the rules. Correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. So go on. Anything else?
22 A. In this rule, there is a very graphic diagram of deployment of a
23 battalion in an area of defence which shows all the things that a
24 battalion is required to have in order to mount a successful defence. In
25 those days, I have to say, I would have been very happy if I had had all
1 these things. And I would feel safer, because I would have a
2 well-organised firing system. However, I didn't have all these things for
3 various reasons.
4 Q. Let me stop you here. Let me put this diagram, which isn't the
5 original, just so we know. And I'm going to need you to slow down a
6 little bit because we want to go step by step. This is the diagram that
7 you're referring to. I apologise for not having this translated.
8 Okay. First of all, what does this diagram -- in which -- under
9 which paragraph is this diagram found in the book?
10 A. In paragraph 320. It is indicated.
11 Q. Okay. Okay. So this is -- I know, but in the translation we
12 weren't able to do it. So this diagram is part of paragraph 320?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. Now, in looking at this diagram, could you just please
15 explain it to us, what does it -- because we're not military folks around
16 here, so maybe you can help us out. What are we looking at? And go step
17 by step.
18 A. From the top to the bottom of this diagram, it's emphasised that
19 what is described here is the combat disposition. And on the right hand
20 it says "area of defence."
21 On top, you see this acronym BOS which means combat support. It
22 shows here that it could be up to an equivalent of one platoon. In this
23 area it's the 3rd Platoon of the 3rd Infantry Company. It should be ahead
24 of the line.
25 The next item is this semicircle. These two semicircles indicate
1 companies on the first defence line. Each of them has a width, 1 to 1.5
2 kilometres, which for the total of the battalion constitutes 3 to 5
3 kilometres. Typically these companies are also deployed. They have their
4 own platoons on the second line, second echelon platoons. That is very
5 necessary because it gives manoeuvring space to the commander of the
6 company and commander of the platoon. This is a marking for the
7 4th Anti-Armour Group, anti-tank group. Every modern army should have
8 one. This marking here, this sign, indicates a mortar group. This sign
9 indicates the post of the company commander, where he is located. This
10 sign here designates the battalion anti-armour group, the size of an
11 anti-armour company. The next --
12 Q. Let me stop you here for a second. I need you to slow down
13 because it has to be translated.
14 So I take it -- and you were demonstrating on this document which
15 will become part of -- which will be given an exhibit number and have it
16 translated, but you were just referring to the first half of the page.
17 And you were pointing at the left semicircle and the contents that were in
18 that semicircle in what will be marked for identification purposes as
19 D189. I take it the right semicircle would have pretty much the same as
20 the left one. Correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to the bottom half, the second -- the
23 semicircle that's at the bottom half that's below the first two
24 semicircles. Okay. Slowly.
25 A. All right. This semicircle here represents a company in the
1 second line, second-echelon company. As you can see, it is deployed in
2 this way, two platoons forward, one platoon behind. Within the framework
3 of the platoon, two sections are up front, one section is behind. The
4 same organic structure, I already said they have an anti-armour group. At
5 the same level of that second-echelon company would be the command post.
6 This sign here, this triangle marked by 1 designates the command post. In
7 the immediate vicinity of the command post, as a rule, you should have
8 this small sign indicating the firing position of a light artillery rocket
9 platoon of air defence.
10 Right behind that is the firing position of the battalion firing
11 group. And behind all of them is the logistical platoon.
12 Q. All right. Now, while we're at this, this is what's in the rules.
13 Tell us what you had available, that is, concretely, what did this
14 particular battalion have available at the time. Or you may want to go
15 with what you did not have. That may be quicker.
16 A. Well, I didn't have most of this. I can show you what I did have.
17 First of all, I wish to emphasise that the battalion was defending an area
18 much broader than 5 kilometres; it was closer to 10 kilometres. So my
19 battalion was defending two areas like this. Of all these enumerated
20 units, I only --
21 Q. Slow down, please. Please slow down, because it has to be
22 translated and we don't want to miss a word. Okay.
23 So first of all -- let me walk you through this. It might be
24 easier. With respect to the length, it says here "3 to 5 kilometres."
25 What was the length of territory that you were required to cover?
1 A. About 10 kilometres.
2 Q. Okay. So, twice the amount than what the rules require?
3 A. Right.
4 Q. Okay. Now, on the bottom half of that page we talked about the
5 second echelon. This would be the second echelon defence line. Is that
7 A. Yes. Yes. Second echelon company.
8 Q. Did you have that?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. Did you have any of it?
11 A. I had a command post and next to the command post I had my
12 logistical platoon. And I had mortars. But all that means little without
13 this second echelon company.
14 Q. Okay. Now, going to the top part, tell us slowly one by one what
15 you did not have.
16 A. I did not have combat support. I have this line, only the first
17 line of defence. All this behind within the framework of companies I did
18 not have. I didn't have mortars, nor did I have any anti-armour weapons
19 within companies, nor did I have the second-echelon company or the light
20 artillery rocket platoon. So many of the things from this general scheme
21 were lacking in my structure in those days.
22 Q. All right. Now -- now that we've covered this, going back to the
23 rules, incidentally before we leave this diagram, we see that the length
24 is 3 to 5. The width or the depth, that would be going backwards or --
25 A. Up to 3 kilometres, 2 to 3 kilometres.
1 Q. Right. But if we went -- if you look at the last paragraph of
2 paragraph number 321, what about if the area is mountainous, the terrain?
3 A. As for mountainous terrain, it was emphasised that the area of
4 defence for a battalion could be even over 5 kilometres, considering the
5 defence is usually organised across separate company areas, with each
6 company closing off separate directions, which means that only under these
7 circumstances, if the general disposition is met, only under those
8 circumstances can a battalion defend an area broader than 5 kilometres on
9 mountainous terrain.
10 Q. Okay. Were you able, sir? Concretely, were you able to exceed
11 the 5 kilometres?
12 A. Well, I had to.
13 Q. Now, what other paragraphs do you want to draw our attentions to?
14 Let me just speed up a little bit. I notice that from --
15 A. Yes, I've noticed this -- the role of the second-echelon company,
16 para 328.
17 Q. Okay. And para 327 would have what the first-echelon company
18 would require and 328 talks about the second echelon?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. So basically what you've already discussed earlier with the
21 diagram we can find in these paragraphs?
22 A. Yes, that's clear.
23 Q. Okay. Thank you.
24 Now, did you have a depth at the time? In light of the terrain
25 that you had to cover, which was twice the amount you told us, 10
1 kilometres versus 3 to 5, with the men that you had available, with no
2 second echelon, did you have a particular depth that you had to cover?
3 A. No, I did not have a specific depth. I wasn't able to cover it
4 anyway, so I didn't have any.
5 Q. All right. So then it won't be necessary to go to the map for you
6 to draw out the depth?
7 A. There's no need, I think.
8 Q. Okay. Thank you. I believe that will be it for the -- for these
10 Now, if we could go into -- no, we'll stick with -- if I can hand
11 you the next document, which is P391. If you could take a look at that.
12 Now, just look at it very quickly. Do you recognise the document, sir?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. All right. And what is this document?
15 A. This is an analysis of combat readiness for the first half of
16 1995. It's dated 4 July 1995.
17 Q. All right. Have you had a chance to look at this document before
18 coming here today to testify, sir?
19 A. Apart from seeing it at the proofing session with you, no.
20 Q. Okay. All right. But you have seen it -- you saw it at the
21 proofing session?
22 A. I did.
23 Q. Okay. Now, if we could look at this. And if you could draw our
24 attention to contents in this particular analysis of combat readiness that
25 you found relevant to the discussions here today.
1 A. What I would single out here to corroborate that previous
2 accession that we had to stretch ourselves thin beyond the extent of our
3 possibilities is found here on page 2. It is emphasised that the great
4 breadth, in brackets, around 43 kilometres.
5 Q. Now, this is -- our pages are different. So this would be ERN for
6 the English 00716536. All right.
7 So what do you want to draw our attention to?
8 A. I wish to draw your attention to the point which emphasises that
9 the brigade was defending an area 43 kilometres long. By any standard, by
10 any rule, such a wide area is impossible to defend successfully. To
11 defend an area of that width, three brigades would be needed. And then on
12 page --
13 Q. I want to stick -- step by step. Here we say -- here it says:
14 "Great width (about 43 kilometres) of the area of responsibility."
15 So here we have a term which you have told us doesn't exist.
16 A. It is a term which -- first of all, it is not a professional term.
17 But during that period it was used. I cannot say it wasn't, and you can
18 see from the document, it was used occasionally. But it was used probably
19 because some people found it easy to use this acronym. It is in essence
20 an inadequate term.
21 Q. Are you familiar with the rules for a brigade, the brigade rules?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. If we were to go into those brigade rules, would we find anywhere
24 in the rules that a brigade has an area or a zone of responsibility?
25 A. No, you cannot find it in that rule book. There is no reference
1 to it.
2 Q. Okay. Sticking with this -- staying on this page, is there
3 anything else that you find that might be useful for us to consider?
4 A. I can say that almost every point illustrates the difficulties and
5 the problems that were encountered in the process of commanding. The
6 first one indicates that there are -- there is a shortage of officers at
7 every level, which means that untrained, unqualified, unprofessional
8 people occupied positions of responsibility. And that caused problems to
9 all of us. And even the position that I occupied did not envisage
10 somebody like me in that position. One usually starts in one's career
11 from lower positions.
12 Q. Let me stop you here, and just if we could go into private session
13 for just a couple of questions on that.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session, please.
15 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 MR. KARNAVAS:
5 Q. Now, what else on this particular page that talks about the
6 difficulties in the exercise of command and control?
7 A. In the next item it is emphasised that the area of responsibility
8 is expanded beyond the brigade's objective abilities. So it is underlined
9 that the brigade is not capable of defending a front line of that width
10 and consequently cannot control what is going on ahead of them or behind.
11 There were many ambushes at the time. There were many problems, all
12 because our method of mounting a defence was bad because we didn't have
13 enough people.
14 Q. All right. Anything else before we go on to another segment in
15 this particular document?
16 A. It also says here that we have no possibility for using any
17 reserve for manoeuvring by the brigade commander. As I said, each of
18 these items in itself is illustrative of the very specific problems.
19 Q. All right. Well, let me focus your attention later on further
20 into this document towards the end. And for the ELMO, it would be on page
21 49, 00716479. Here it states that -- that would be page 17 in the English
23 Now, it states here: "In relation to its establishment numbers,
24 the brigade is at 128 per cent strength."
25 How do you account for that? One, you're telling me that there's
1 not enough personnel --
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
3 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, this has gone on for a while, but I don't
4 see how this witness can really testify to these matters. I don't
5 think -- largely, his answers are speculative. And, you know, I think
6 it's gone on for quite some time.
7 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --
8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think the first issue is that
9 this question is relevant to our case.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: It is, Your Honour. I think all these questions
11 are relevant for a variety of reasons. We have Butler's report. If we
12 want I can point out the sections in the Butler report where he talked
13 about --
14 JUDGE LIU: I mean that specific question.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, this question, Your Honour, with respect to
16 128 per cent, for instance the gentleman has talked about the lack of
17 personnel. Now, one might look at this figure, such as Butler, or through
18 his agent, you know, the Prosecutor, and say, well, see, at 128 per cent,
19 how could this possibly be a brigade that lacked numbers. And this
20 gentleman has direct knowledge. This is not speculation. He was there.
21 He knows what was going on. If he's unable to answer this question, he
22 can tell us. But I believe we will hear an answer that is very relevant.
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas --
24 MR. KARNAVAS: It's my last question on this document, too, by the
1 JUDGE LIU: You have to understand that sometimes something in the
2 paper is one thing and something in practice is another.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: I totally agree, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE LIU: I think you have already made your point here.
5 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I was just going to ask this one question on
6 this one figure just so we can -- because I don't want anything being left
7 unturned, any doubt in anybody's mind.
8 JUDGE LIU: Okay. Turn that stone as soon as possible.
9 MR. KARNAVAS:
10 Q. All right. It says here "128 per cent." You are telling us that
11 you lacked personnel, you didn't have enough for a second echelon. Can
12 you give us an explanation?
13 A. Yes, I can. First of all, one should bear in mind that this
14 brigade was called the light infantry brigade. It's a huge difference
15 between the infantry, motorised, armoured brigade. First of all, the
16 difference is in the strength per establishment. I have no specific data,
17 and it can be computed mathematically exactly the number of men that
18 should be assigned to a brigade; probably be below 2.000 men.
19 Now, in a situation that I explained earlier, that a brigade was
20 expected to defend 43 [Realtime transcript read in error "4 to 3
21 kilometres"] kilometres long front, and as I said, according to the rules,
22 a brigade in principle defends 10 to 15 kilometres of area. And that
23 primarily refers to infantry brigades, motorised brigades, or mechanised
24 brigade, or armoured brigades, so brigades of such type that have higher
25 strength. This percentage of 128 per cent includes a number of men who
1 were wounded or were in other areas for the whole time. For instance, we
2 had people in different places that I wouldn't name now. This is just a
3 simple figure which does not necessarily have to mean that at that point
4 in time there were so many men on the front. And I'm sure there weren't.
5 In some reports, it has been mentioned frequently where higher-ranking
6 officers from the brigade command came to inspect the troops that the
7 specific numbers on the ground did not correspond to those on paper.
8 Q. All right. Just one point of clarification. The record here says
9 4 to 3 kilometres long, but I believe, if I heard you right and if my
10 Srpski is accurate, you said 43 kilometres long. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes. It says 43.
12 Q. All right. Okay. I don't have any further questions on this
14 MR. KARNAVAS: I do have a couple other documents, Your Honour.
15 It would probably be 10 minutes, tops 15. So if it's okay to take the
16 break now and ...
17 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes. We'll take a break and we'll resume at 25
18 minutes to 1.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.36 p.m.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 If we could be in private session for the next two matters. If
24 that's okay.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session, please.
1 [Private session]
12 Pages 10197 to 10205 redacted, private session
18 [Open session]
19 MR. KARNAVAS:
20 Q. I just want to show you this one last document. It's -- we bring
21 it out with most of the witnesses, D132. It's dated 4 July 1994. It's an
22 information by Mr. -- by Lieutenant Colonel Ognjenovic.
23 First of all, do you ever recall seeing this document?
24 A. I don't recall.
25 Q. All right. Now, if you look at paragraph 2 and sort of the last
1 part of paragraph 2, there is a discussion here, information, as to
2 attaining a final goal, an entirely Serbian Podrinje, "the enclaves of
3 Srebrenica, Zepa and Gorazde must be defeated militarily," and it goes on
4 about the expulsion of Muslims from the Srebrenica enclave, making the
5 enemy's life unbearable so that they leave.
6 Sir, were any orders issued or was any policies in place that you
7 were aware of while Lieutenant Colonel Ognjenovic was the commander?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Now, when Colonel Blagojevic took over the Bratunac Brigade, do
10 you recall whether he pulled out this information by Lieutenant Colonel
11 Ognjenovic and whether he had instructed the commanders and the soldiers
12 of the Bratunac Brigade that this would be -- that he would be carrying
13 out the already-existing policy that's reflected in this document?
14 A. No. We have this specific document of the 5th, issued by
15 Commander Blagojevic, and everything is specified there. It is a purely
16 military document.
17 Q. This one is predated by a year and one day, 4 July 1994. During
18 that one-year period, were you aware of any activities that you were
19 engaged or the others were engaged in pursuant to Lieutenant Colonel
20 Ognjenovic's orders and carrying out this information?
21 A. I am not aware of specific orders, and I don't know what that
22 would mean.
23 Q. All right. Do you place any value on this particular document,
24 D132, this information?
25 A. No. I can just observe that it is an exaggeration. How can
1 somebody link up different enclaves? Ognjenovic was, among other things,
2 a journalist, so maybe he gave himself some license. Because journalists
3 can blow things up occasionally.
4 Q. I've been told that.
5 Lastly, do you have an opinion about your commander back in July
6 1995 and afterwards, that is, Colonel Blagojevic? Do you have an opinion
7 what kind of a commander he was?
8 A. I have a very good opinion of him. He was an honourable man, an
9 honourable officer. He was well-intentioned in his relations with
10 subordinates, always ready to help. And certainly - I'm saying this in my
11 own name - he certainly never ordered me to commit any folly in terms of
12 what was going on in that territory. He was burdened with great problems
13 at the time as to how to resolve the situation. He didn't have an easy
14 time. I just want to point out on one occasion when I addressed him,
15 asking him for help on a different matter unrelated to this, he told me:
16 Mr. 2nd Lieutenant, invest all your intellectual and other abilities to
17 solve your problem. That's all your commander can tell you.
18 I understood then, and on many other occasions, that his hands
19 were tied. A commander had huge responsibilities and very few abilities,
20 very few means of dealing with them. The situation in the field developed
21 often quite beyond our expectations and our abilities. We had a huge area
22 to defend and very few people to defend it, and I wish to emphasise, an
23 enormous number of problems. I also wish to underline my very positive
24 opinion of Commander Blagojevic. Many other people like him would have
25 been equally unable to deal with the multitude of enormous problems that
1 he was facing.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions. I have you very, very
4 much for your frank answers. Mr. Stojanovic, who represents Mr. Jokic,
5 may have some questions. The Prosecution may have some as well as the
6 Judges. If you can be as frank and forthcoming with them as you have been
7 with me, I would most it.
8 I have no further questions.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
10 Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions to this witness?
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
12 And good afternoon, Witness.
13 If I may ask Your Honour for this screen to be moved slightly so
14 that I can see the witness while asking my questions.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
18 A. Good afternoon once again.
19 Q. Allow me, only in view of your qualifications and your detailed
20 testimony yesterday and today, to show you an excerpt from these rules of
21 the battalion which you used in the examination by Mr. Karnavas. If you
22 would please look at para 76 of the rules of the battalion. As a
23 reminder, could you tell us what are the main responsibilities of
24 battalion commander, the responsibilities that you had in 1995.
25 A. They are enumerated and specified here in a very concise manner.
1 "The commander has the exclusive right to command a battalion and all the
2 units attached to it for the performance of a certain task. He is
3 responsible for the proper operation of the battalion and all the
4 subordinate commanding officers; the status of political awareness and
5 morale" - although we deleted political awareness later - "security,
6 combat readiness; training; proper use of the units; and the execution of
7 the given task."
8 Q. At this point could we stop a bit. When it says "the commander of
9 the battalion has the exclusive right of command," what does that imply?
10 A. That implies that no one but him is allowed to command in his
12 Q. And a follow-up question now. Who gives orders to the battalion
13 commander in terms of the chain of command and the hierarchy?
14 A. Only a brigade commander or his deputy.
15 Q. Would I be right in drawing this conclusion: That a chief of a
16 certain service of the army would not be entitled to issue orders to a
17 battalion commander?
18 A. No, that should not happen.
19 Q. Thank you. Let us now turn our attention to Rule 77 on the same
20 page. If the battalion commander is absent for whatever reason, the
21 deputy battalion commander should stand in, according to establishment?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Would I be right in saying that the deputy battalion commander is
24 a person who has the same authorisations as the battalion commander in the
25 latter's absence?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And he neither would be able to receive orders from the chief of
3 another branch of service of the army; he would only be receiving orders
4 from the brigade commander?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. May I just ask you to turn to para 79, which stipulates the
7 responsibility of the assistant commander for intelligence and security.
8 Did you in your battalion have this position filled, according to
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What are the responsibility of assistant commander for
12 intelligence and security on battalion level?
13 A. These responsibilities are enumerated in para 79.
14 Q. For the record, could you tell us what those responsibilities are,
15 slowly please, so that we don't have to tender this whole document into
17 A. "The assistant to the commander for intelligence and security
18 carries out and organises the expert tasks related to intelligence and
19 security support in the battalion. He monitors and assesses the
20 situation, the intentions and abilities of the enemy, his intelligence,
21 subversive and other efforts, and proposes measures to the commander to
22 counteract such enemy activities."
23 Shall I read on? I've read the most important part.
5 Q. The duty officer's responsibility was to convey your message to
6 the brigade commander or the appropriate person. That was in the context
7 of communications exchanged on the 11th of July, the movements and
8 developments around your positions?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Would you agree with me if I said that it was the responsibility
11 of the duty officer at the brigade command in terms of paragraph 66 of the
12 instructions of -- on operations of commands and headquarters only to
13 convey your informations -- information to the commander or the superior
14 headquarters, only to forward what you have to say?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. He is not a person who is able to give you orders; he can only
17 convey orders?
18 A. There is a situation, a last-resort situation, when neither the
19 commander nor his deputy or any authorised person is available, and in
20 that situation the duty operative officer can issue an order. But before
21 that, he has to exhaust all the possibilities for contacting the
22 appropriate superiors. And only after failing to find any one of them he
23 can issue an order. But that is a very extreme situation.
24 Q. So if the brigade commander is around or the chief of staff is
25 around or any one of the superior officers at the command, the duty
1 officer is only to convey your message to them?
2 A. Correct. For instance, the chief of the operations and training
3 is number 3 in the brigade. So following that hierarchy, if none of the
4 superiors is available, the duty operations officer is bound in such a
5 situation to do something.
6 Q. However, in normal situations, the duty officer is only a relay
7 transmitting your information to the brigade command and onwards?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Thank you. If I may now draw your attention to para 147 of the
10 rules of battalion. It is an area that governs engineer support within
11 the framework of a battalion. Could you please, very briefly, give us an
12 account, a description, of engineer support and who provides it?
13 A. Engineer support provides some basic tasks which do not differ
14 much even at higher levels of command, such as brigade. The first and
15 principal task is the mounting of obstacles, securing movements by
16 operating engineering machines, camouflage. These are the principle
17 tasks, and of course security, fortification.
18 Q. Thank you. According to this para 147, it says that all this
19 activity is to be carried out according to a plan provided by the superior
20 command which specifies works to be performed by the battalion and which
21 works are supposed to be implemented by the engineering unit of the
22 superior command.
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Would I be correct in deducing that battalions had their
25 engineering support and in that sense they had certain tasks, as described
2 A. Of course. They had engineering support.
3 Q. This engineering support at battalion level, did it also include
4 the possibility of mounting obstacles?
5 A. Yes, such as minefields.
6 Q. So battalion engineering would be the one who would put obstacles
7 to secure foremost defence lines of the battalion?
8 A. In ordinary units, in normal units, ordinary soldiers can do that.
9 From the unit where I come from, every soldier is trained to plant an
10 anti-personnel or an anti-tank mine. It all depends on the type of
11 engineering unit which is built into a battalion or another establishment
13 Q. Speaking of engineering support, an engineering unit should be
14 able to provide other activities, mounting obstacles, construction,
15 fortification, et cetera?
16 A. Yes, certainly. This is all encompassed by the word
18 Q. So it would be correct to conclude that certain engineering works
19 can be performed by specialised units within the framework of a battalion?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Thank you, Witness.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions.
24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
25 We have about 20 minutes left. Certainly that cross-examination
1 could not be finished today, so I would like to ask the opinion from the
2 Prosecutor whether you will want to start your cross-examination today and
3 continue tomorrow, or we have an early break today and begin your
4 cross-examination tomorrow morning at 9.00.
5 Ms. Issa?
6 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I have no preference. I'm in
7 Your Honour's hands. I can either start now or start tomorrow. I agree
8 with Your Honour, I don't believe I will be finished today, so the witness
9 will have to return tomorrow in any event. So perhaps it might be better
10 to take the break now, since there isn't too much time left.
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I think that's a good answer. Whenever I ask
12 your opinion, you have to express some tendency so that will help me to
13 make the decision.
14 Well, Witness, I'm sorry that you have to stay here another day.
15 I believe that you still remember what I told you yesterday.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't forgotten.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
18 So the hearing for today is adjourned. And we'll resume tomorrow
19 at 9.00.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
21 at 1.26 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
22 the 3rd day of June, 2004,
23 at 9.00 a.m.