Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10139

1 Wednesday, 2 June 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 Good morning, Witness.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

11 JUDGE LIU: Did you have a good rest last night?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did.

13 JUDGE LIU: Please sit down.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to start?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ready.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

18 Mr. Karnavas.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Good morning, Mr. President, Judge Argibay.

20 WITNESS: WITNESS DP-105 [Resumed]

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Examined by Mr. Karnavas: [Continued]

23 Q. Good morning, sir. I want to pick up where we left off yesterday.

24 And as you will recall, we were speaking about your activities of

25 searching the terrain. Now, let me show you a document what has

Page 10140

1 been -- what is marked as P490. It has been admitted into evidence

2 already. If you could look at that. Do you recognise this document, sir?

3 A. I do.

4 Q. Okay. And what is this document?

5 A. A daily combat report of the 15th of July, 1995.

6 Q. All right. Now, is there any -- could you please direct our

7 attention to any relevant paragraph with respect to your unit.

8 A. Here in part of para 2, it says that on that day our forces were

9 still searching the terrain in accordance with your order, and the line is

10 now from Lupoglav, Susnjari, Prijanska Kosa and so on. In relation to

11 this, I can say that on that day, as far as I remember, we did not emerge

12 at this Lupoglav feature or Susnjari.

13 Q. So in looking at this daily combat report, is this accurate or

14 inaccurate with respect to what your troops were involved in?

15 A. This is inaccurate.

16 Q. All right.

17 A. It is inaccurate.

18 Q. All right. Thank you. Let me show you now what is marked as

19 P496. First we're going to look at it. Let me know when you're ready to

20 discuss it.

21 A. I did not understand the question. When did I review what?

22 Q. When you finished reviewing it, let me know so we can discuss

23 this. Do you recognise this document?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What is this document?

Page 10141

1 A. It is a daily combat report addressed to the command of the Drina

2 Corps, dated 16th July 1995.

3 Q. Now, if I could direct your attention to paragraph 1. Is that

4 relevant in any way to where your units were located, and if so, could you

5 please discuss it.

6 A. It was relevant only inasmuch as it happened in the area of my

7 right neighbour, right-hand neighbour, the 4th Battalion.

8 Q. Were you involved at all in those activities that are mentioned in

9 paragraph 1?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Now, for the record I want you to read slowly the first sentence

12 of the first paragraph so we have a correct translation. The first

13 sentence of the second paragraph.

14 A. "Part of the units continued to search the terrain in the area

15 they had been given orders for."

16 Q. Okay. Let me stop you here. In the English translation it

17 reflects that the units are searching the terrain in the above areas that

18 are mentioned in paragraph 1. Is that what this reflects in the original

19 version, in the original language?

20 A. No, that's not what it says. This relates primarily to the prior

21 order, which we discussed yesterday, the order for terrain search.

22 Q. Okay. Thank you. I just wanted to point out this rather

23 significant error in translation of this particular portion, which may be

24 misleading. Anything else that's relevant to your particular unit, your

25 troops?

Page 10142

1 A. One item says that preparations have been made to send two

2 companies belonging to the 1st Zvornik Brigade and the reconnaissance or

3 scouting platoon of the 1st Infantry Battalion. As for this scouting

4 platoon or reconnaissance platoon, I can say that they were not sent to

5 the Zvornik area.

6 Q. Okay. So that's incorrect as well?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. Now, I believe it says here that a company was

9 engaged -- if we look into paragraph 2, I believe it's the third sentence.

10 It says: "Since the MUP, Ministry of Interior unit, was pulled out this

11 morning from the Kravica/Konjevic Polje direction, a company was engaged

12 at 1400 hours to block this direction."

13 My question, sir, is: Were you ordered or did you send a company

14 to carry out those activities, as reflected in this daily combat report?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you. I don't have anything more on this document.

17 Now, I want to go through some more reports before we go back to the map

18 that we were discussing yesterday. And if I could show you what has been

19 marked as P484. I'll be discussing that with a couple of other documents.

20 If you could look at that very briefly, do you know what this document is,

21 sir?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And could you please tell us what it is.

24 A. This is a request for the relief of units that are part of the

25 4th Drina Light Infantry Brigade.

Page 10143

1 Q. All right. Now, why is that significant at all to the

2 Bratunac Brigade and perhaps even more specifically to your battalion?

3 A. It is significant in as much a part of our forces were engaged in

4 that area, the area of Trnovo, and it will become important later at a

5 point when I received orders to send some of my troops there. However,

6 since orders replaced each other very quickly, during that day, on the

7 16th, I received a number of orders that superceded each other; in other

8 words, they could not be executed for executive reasons, because the

9 developments unfolded very quickly. So we did not simply have time to

10 carry out some of these orders.

11 Q. Well, that's -- in reference to what you just noted, let me show

12 you the next document which is P11 -- P111. If you can look at that very

13 briefly.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you recognise what it says, sir?

16 A. I do.

17 Q. And what is this document?

18 A. This is an order for the relief of temporary troops.

19 Q. Now, is that related to the previous document that we were looking

20 at that was dated July 14th that was addressed to the Drina Corps?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right. And I'm told that the document you are holding is

23 P493, so that's a correction from P111.

24 All right. Now, is there anything specific related to your TO

25 units?

Page 10144

1 A. Yes. Some things are relevant. I had to single out part of my

2 troops for the execution of that task as well as part of the commanding

3 officers who were to command that unit.

4 Q. All right. Now, let me show you -- let me show you another

5 document, P498, while keeping that document in front of you. If you could

6 look at this. This is an order, is it not, dated 16 July 1995? The

7 relevant paragraph will be paragraph number 7, but first let's just go

8 through the documents.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So this is an order, is it not, dated 16 July 1995?

11 A. It is.

12 Q. So this is a day later than the previous document that we've seen

13 that was marked 493. Correct?

14 And if we go to paragraph number 7, can we draw any conclusions

15 from that particular paragraph, sir?

16 A. We can draw a specific conclusion, as it is specified here, troops

17 from the 1st Infantry Battalion designated to replace personnel at Trnovo

18 will become part of the 1st Infantry Battalion, that means they will not

19 be sent to any other axis or any other mission.

20 Q. Okay. So did they go to Trnovo?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Where did they go?

23 A. They went, together with me, to Zepa.

24 Q. Now, we've heard testimony in this courtroom that sometime on the

25 13th or 14th, the chief of staff, which would have been Major Pajic,

Page 10145

1 Novica Pajic, had gone. And here, both of these documents reflect that

2 they are directed to the chief of staff. Can you help us out here?

3 What's going on? If the chief of staff isn't there, why are these

4 documents being directed to him?

5 A. I'm not quite clear on that, why he is specifically named in this

6 order, because the order applied to my unit. And in the left bottom

7 corner, as would be usual, it is not indicated to whom the order was

8 addressed. It says the order was addressed to the chief of staff, only

9 for the purpose of archiving the document.

10 Q. All right. Now, speaking of archiving, I just want to go back

11 because I want to pick up a point that we left off yesterday at the end of

12 the day, and that would be with respect to the order of July 14, 1995,

13 regarding the searching of the terrain. And that would be 48 -- P483.

14 When you see the document, you will know which document I am referring to.

15 As you may recall, this was the document that I had you focus your

16 attention on paragraph 1 and thereafter mark on the map that was D186, the

17 coordinates of which you were ordered to search. Do you recall that, sir?

18 A. I recall that.

19 Q. All right. Now, in looking at this particular order, again we see

20 that it's addressed to the chief of staff on 14 July 1995, the date when

21 in fact he is supposed to have been out of the Bratunac Brigade area. Can

22 you tell us a little bit about that. Why is it addressed to him?

23 A. I don't understand why it was addressed to him, because the person

24 wasn't there. He could have no direct insight or provide his personal

25 contribution to that activity. The only possible explanation for

Page 10146

1 including this addressee is archiving, as I said. But in this order,

2 which is rather particular, both in the sense of its meaning and in the

3 sense that it doesn't comply with the format prescribed by administrative

4 and office rules in the former JNA which we followed, it is not indicated

5 in the left bottom corner to whom it was copied.

6 Q. All right. Why is that important, to whom it would be copied,

7 that is, distributed to?

8 A. It is important to know to whom it was copied for the simple

9 reason that it would confirm that a document was drafted in so many copies

10 and that it was accessible to people to whom it was addressed. Sometimes

11 it would not be actually made available to the persons indicated, but it

12 was important to know that it was done in that many copies.

13 Q. All right. Well, you've indicated one more shortcoming in this

14 particular document, that's on top of the ones that we spoke about in you

15 pointing out the map yesterday or being requested to search terrain that

16 was already free terrain. Could you please give us an explanation how

17 someone could draft such an order with so many shortcomings.

18 A. This could have been drafted only by somebody who was

19 insufficiently trained in the military sense. I can give you one more

20 detail. When you designate a battalion's command post, you usually

21 specify whether it is a school building or a junction of roads or an

22 agricultural cooperative, any other building. You usually specify, for

23 instance, the command post for the 2nd Battalion is designated as Potocari

24 village; it is a huge village. And the commander of that battalion could

25 be quite confused. Where is he supposed to set up his command post? As I

Page 10147

1 read this, I cannot but assume that somebody from the operative organ of

2 the brigade wrote this and that he or she did so only pro forma.

3 Q. Okay. Before we talk about that, picking up on the last point

4 where you said under number 2, if forward command post or the command post

5 for the 2nd Battalion is village of Potocari, why don't you make that

6 distinction for paragraph number 1 where it says the command post of the

7 1st Battalion will be the village of Cizmici? There it designates a

8 village as well.

9 A. Here again, the location is unspecified, but Cizmici village is

10 much smaller than Potocari, so I chose Potocari to better illustrate the

11 deficiencies of paragraph 2.

12 Q. Do you know who in the operations would be -- during that time

13 would be tasked with drafting these sorts of orders or these sorts of

14 documents?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you please tell us who the person would have been or might

17 have been?

18 A. Most often it was done by Lieutenant, Junior Lieutenant Micic,

19 Milorad.

20 Q. Was he a trained officer in the sense as you had been trained,

21 that is, with four years secondary military education, plus four years of

22 academy, formal military academy education?

23 A. No. He had finished only secondary military school and at one

24 point in time he was promoted in an extraordinary procedure to an

25 officer's rank.

Page 10148

1 Q. Why would he have been promoted under such a procedure, in light

2 of his rather slim military educational background?

3 A. I cannot say exactly what the reason was, the proposals were made

4 by the then-brigade command. But I would like to say that -- I don't want

5 to say that he was a bad officer, he was not diligent and responsible;

6 however, his level of education did not provide him with broad views

7 enabling him to deal with this kind of problems, for instance, with

8 designating command posts.

9 Q. It says here in the translation that he was a bad, I believe you

10 meant to say he was not a bad -- is that correct, that he was not a bad

11 officer or he was a --

12 A. No, I didn't want to say that he was a bad officer. I heard he

13 was a good, disciplined, conscientious, and responsible officer, apart

14 from the fact that he lacked sufficient training and knowledge for the

15 duties that he discharged.

16 Q. All right. Now, while we're still at this I want to cover a

17 couple of points. First of all, do you know a Nikola Gajic?

18 A. I do.

19 Q. Would you please tell us who this gentleman is.

20 A. He was a soldier with my battalion for a certain period of time,

21 and he was a member of my reconnaissance platoon.

22 Q. Did you at any point in time authorise him to leave his position

23 and to go into Kravica?

24 A. No, I didn't, either to him or to anyone else.

25 Q. All right. Now, he was asked concretely about whether there was

Page 10149

1 any activity, combat activity after July 11, 1995. And just for my

2 colleagues here, that could be found on page 3.353 when Ms. Davis

3 questioned Mr. Gajic, specifically line 9 and onwards for the record, for

4 those who may want to check the accuracy of my paraphrasing.

5 Prior to July 9th -- July 11th, you told us there was some

6 activity. You told us about July 9th when one of your men stepped on a

7 landmine. Is that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And if my memory serves me correct, those who were involved in

10 those activities were part of the reconnaissance unit, or am I wrong?

11 A. No, you are not wrong. They were members of the reconnaissance

12 units.

13 Q. Now, lest there be any misunderstanding, the question is,

14 directing your attention to the specific date of July 11th. Okay. From

15 then onwards, was there any other combat activity that the reconnaissance

16 unit was engaged in to your understanding?

17 A. In the period between the 9th and the 11th July, if I understood

18 you correctly, this unit did not take any part in any operations. So on

19 the 9th, the 10th, and on the 11th, they never went the defence sector

20 covered by the battalion.

21 Q. Did this unit see any combat activity after the 11th? And I'm

22 talking about the 11th, the 12th, the 13th.

23 A. They took part on the 12th. After they entered the Cizmici

24 village on the 13th and the 14th, this unit was there.

25 Q. But was that -- was there any combat activity, shooting, killings,

Page 10150

1 confronting the enemy during that period, aside from the movement that

2 you've indicated?

3 A. There was no confrontation with the enemy, but let me tell you

4 I -- that on the 12th I entered the sector where the abandoned enemy

5 trenches were in order to provide security there. So that means that we

6 did have to have some combat operations in order to prevent any surprises,

7 because we couldn't be absolutely sure that there wasn't anyone, any

8 enemy, awaiting us in the trenches. So sometimes we did open small arms

9 fire, and this is a normal procedure under such circumstances, as a kind

10 of prevention. And we were duty-bound to do that. However, direct

11 confrontation with the enemy did not take place on the 12th, or the 13th,

12 or the 15th or the 16th of July.

13 Q. All right. Thank you. Lastly, Mr. Gajic, when he was here, had

14 marked a map. So I would like to show you this map. It was entered into

15 as an exhibit as P162. If you could please look at it. Incidentally,

16 before we -- before I have you discuss the map, could you please tell us

17 whether Mr. Gajic had any military training, formal academic military

18 training or schooling, such as you.

19 A. No. I think that he only went through regular military training,

20 just like everybody else, but no other military training other than that.

21 Q. We're talking about the JNA training, the compulsory training that

22 one would have gone through in the former Yugoslavia?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Now, if you could look at this map, sir, and when you're

25 ready to discuss it after you orient yourself.

Page 10151

1 A. I am ready.

2 Q. Okay. Now, according to Mr. Gajic's testimony when he was here

3 back on 23 October 2003 being questioned by Ms. Davis on page 3.367, line

4 6, he was asked to assign the location to the battalion command and the

5 answer was the letter B. So could you please first look at the letter B

6 and tell us whether Mr. Gajic was right when he noted whether that was the

7 location of the battalion command.

8 A. He was wrong.

9 Q. All right. What location has he marked?

10 A. I can't see clearly which feature this is, but it's a place

11 unknown to me, and I'm not aware that the command post had ever been set

12 up there, nor could it have been according to the rules. Because this is

13 the right flank of the battalion, and it's illogical to put it there.

14 Normally the command post is set up in the middle of the defence sector.

15 Q. All right. Now, can you look at those lines and try to figure out

16 what those lines mean, that is the C, the A, the D. Do you know what he

17 is marking there?

18 A. I can only guess. It seems that there are some segments and

19 elements here that are unclear to me.

20 Q. All right. Such as?

21 A. If we --

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.

23 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I'm objecting to this. The witness said

24 he can only guess. It's purely speculative.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I think you have to change the form of your

Page 10152

1 question. You cannot ask the witness to guess what is in another

2 witness's mind.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay. All right.

4 Q. Well, let's look at what is marked as this line C. Do you see

5 that? Do you recognise that terrain, sir?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. And could you please tell us what is being marked

8 there.

9 A. I can only recognise some features. Basically this is unclear to

10 me what it is -- this is all about.

11 Q. All right. Where was the 1st Battalion located? Is it located on

12 any of these lines?

13 A. Are you referring to point C?

14 Q. I'm looking -- I'm asking you to look at the map and tell me where

15 on the map would there -- the battalion would have been positioned at that

16 point in time. And we're going to move -- let's just say from the 6th

17 onwards.

18 A. All right. From the 6th onwards the Lomenac creek, Gajici,

19 Lemesac, and then there's another feature here called Stolice. And then

20 trig point -- I can't see clearly here, but it's called Vresinje. Then it

21 descends towards - just let me see here, just a moment, please - to

22 Jezestica and towards trig point 555, called Ilina Bara.

23 Q. Now, is there a line on the map currently that designates where

24 the -- as you've described it, where the 1st Battalion would have been

25 located on the 6th? Are one of these lines designated, as you have

Page 10153

1 described it?

2 A. Only partly. Only a small portion of it.

3 Q. Okay. In other words, there isn't one?

4 A. No, in this sense.

5 Q. Okay. Now, could you please tell us where the 1st Battalion or

6 elements of the 1st Battalion moved to on the 12th. I believe there was

7 testimony that they moved on the 12th and then on to the 13th.

8 A. Yes. I will start from the right-hand flank, from the feature

9 555. And as far as Vresinje, there was no movement. As for the remaining

10 units were moved from Vresinje sector to Cizmici village. And

11 approximately up to the Vjeceljska Rijeka. That was what took place on

12 the 12th. Then on the 13th, we linked up with the 2nd Battalion and we

13 went to the sector around 520 trig point, that is the Pale sector.

14 Q. Now, is any of that reflected on any of these lines? And if so,

15 which line?

16 A. Only this part, which in fact remained static, is indicated, that

17 is from trig point 555 to Vresinje; whereas, the remaining hasn't been

18 indicated.

19 Q. All right. And the searching of the terrain that you indicated, I

20 believe you began searching some of the terrain on the 16th. Because the

21 15th, it was raining, and you indicated that you got the order late on the

22 15th. So can you show us which line, if any, would reflect the searching

23 of the terrain that was carried out.

24 A. There is no line reflecting the direction of our movement at that

25 time, except for this part here where we eventually concentrated in the

Page 10154

1 areas around the villages of Jaglici and Lupoglav on the 16th.

2 Q. Okay. Now, if we look at what is designated as D, can you

3 identify that location for us.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what is that location?

6 A. That's the village of Kravica.

7 Q. All right. How close were you to Kravica?

8 A. Well, as the crow flies it would be at least 5 kilometres;

9 whereas, on the ground it's a much bigger distance.

10 Q. All right. And again, where was your command post? If you could

11 point that out. Can you locate your command post? You indicated that B

12 was not it. Could you perhaps mark it with a -- with an E, where your

13 command post would be.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.

15 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I believe this was marked by another

16 witness. I'm not sure if it would be appropriate for him to mark the same

17 map at this stage.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I agree with you.

19 You have to furnish the witness with another copy.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: I have, Your Honour. I have.

21 JUDGE LIU: With different numbers.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes. It's a little early in the morning,

23 Your Honour, but I did catch myself on that.

24 I have another one. Here you go.

25 This can be marked for identification as D188/1.

Page 10155

1 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]


3 Q. So did you mark it? Okay. Now --

4 A. I think that this is rather imprecise. The tolerance would be

5 plus/minus 100 metres to the right or the left, but this is approximately

6 the location. And on top of that, the copy is rather bad, but definitely

7 it wasn't the position B.

8 Q. All right. Now, you told us it's approximately 5 kilometres away.

9 Could you please tell us what the terrain looked like.

10 A. Behind my lines, the terrain was before that, laden with mines,

11 and we avoided the whole area, particularly on the right flank. I can't

12 say that it was totally inaccessible, but it was a difficult terrain to

13 negotiate. It's a hilly land and crises-crossed with ravines and creeks

14 which can be seen from the map as well.

15 Q. Now, the E that you've designated, that's the command post at what

16 point in time?

17 A. That was the command post all the way up to the 12th of July.

18 Q. And after the 12th of July, where was the new command post placed?

19 A. In the village of Cizmici sector.

20 Q. And that would be where the C is located?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, from Cizmici to Kravica, what's the distance?

23 A. Well, it's a -- very far away, approximately perhaps 10 or 15

24 kilometres. I don't see the scale here that I can -- that can help me.

25 And this is the distance as the crow flies; on the ground, it's much

Page 10156

1 farther. Because when one goes on the ground, you have to go uphill and

2 downhill.

3 Q. Now, looking at D, which is Kravica, could you please tell us

4 where would Glogova be. Would it be heading west or heading east?

5 A. To the east.

6 Q. And is it possible for you to approximate where it would be or to

7 find where it is on the map?

8 A. Glogova is a big village or, rather, the whole area is called

9 Glogova.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. As a kind of geographical term.

12 Q. All right. Were you ever in Glogova during this period?

13 A. No, I wasn't.

14 Q. All right. Well, maybe you could help us out here, because I want

15 to show you a portion of testimony that was given by a Dragan Mirkovic in

16 this case with respect to what Mr. Ruez had told him. And I'm going to be

17 referring to pages 7.959 to 7.960, testimony taken on 21st April 2004.

18 And I'll be starting somewhere around line 23 for the full context, for

19 those who might want to look at the authenticity of it, they can go back

20 as far as 7.957, line 10 on that page. But we're referring to the issue

21 of Glogova.

22 Here, Mr. Mirkovic was asked a series of questions, and then at

23 one point, if we go on to page 7.960, Mr. Usher, apparently

24 Mr. -- according to Mr. Mirkovic who testified under oath, Mr. Ruez, who

25 was an investigator - I believe you met him when you were being questioned

Page 10157

1 by Mr. Butler as well - told Mr. Mirkovic: "Mr. Nikolic forgot to steal

2 these corpses and transfer them elsewhere." He's speaking about Glogova.

3 "Here we found the corpses of 12 people who had been killed. They were

4 tied two together with barbed wire and all shot in the forehead. Do you

5 know anything about this?"

6 And his answer was: "And I said, I didn't. It's possible, he

7 said," that is Ruez saying to him, "it's possible that this was done by

8 Mr. Lazar Ostojic and his soldiers, and he pointed with his hand, that's

9 where they were at the line. And these are probably people who

10 surrendered to the soldiers of Lazar Ostojic or they were caught in the

11 woods fleeing from Srebrenica. And these are the men who were killed."

12 This is what Mr. Ruez tells Mr. Mirkovic when they are in Glogova.

13 Now, let me show you -- let me share with you also some diagrams

14 that were made by Mr. Mirkovic. These are for the ELMO, just so you can

15 have your bearings, then I'll pose the questions. We can look at -- in

16 particular, if you were to look at the series ending with 42 or 44 or

17 both, if we can put them next to each other. This would give you an

18 indication as to where they were at the time, keeping in mind that they

19 are on the road between Bratunac, Konjevic Polje, by Glogova.

20 Now, in looking at these diagrams and knowing the terrain, could

21 you please tell us were you lines at any point in time in that vicinity

22 where Mr. Ruez was claiming?

23 A. By moving my positions on the 12th, I absolutely went farther away

24 from that area.

25 Q. All right. Is there any reason -- can you think of any reason why

Page 10158

1 Mr. Ruez would make such slanderous and irresponsible comments to

2 Mr. Mirkovic?

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa?

4 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, that's -- I mean the witness can't

5 possibly answer that question; it's totally speculative.


7 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, the question may be speculative, but they

8 were slanderous, nonetheless, and irresponsible comments.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's very difficult to say at this stage.


11 Q. Were your troops at any point in time anywhere near there, that

12 area on the 12th, the 13th, the 10th, the 11th, the 9th, the 6th, anywhere

13 where Mr. Ruez claims your line was located?

14 A. Not in the close proximity, they weren't. I think that this was

15 nonsense and that I think that he was only assuming without having any

16 evidence that Mr. Ruez was only supposing that my soldiers were there.

17 But I'm deeply convinced that this is rubbish. I apologise for using such

18 vocabulary, but I am really upset that he has labelled both me and my

19 soldiers in that way because I have never given, nor will I ever give an

20 order of that kind.

21 Q. All right. Now, I want to show you the map -- go back to the map

22 of D186. And we have this original map. We can take those other ones

23 away. Okay. If I could focus your attention again to where your lines

24 were, and this time I would like to make reference to a report. It's

25 called the "Srebrenica Military Narrative" by Mr. Butler. If I could

Page 10159

1 make some reference. I have the relevant pages for the ELMO.

2 First -- well, perhaps we can -- we'll have to work out the logistics

3 here. (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, you have to bear in mind that this

16 witness is a protected witness.

17 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.

18 JUDGE LIU: Is it possible for this document not to show --

19 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, it's possible. Yes, absolutely.

20 Absolutely -- well, I was doing it for the benefit of everyone here.

21 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.


23 Q. All right. Now, did the 1st -- do you know whether the

24 1st Infantry Battalion command controlled or manned any part of the

25 Bratunac/Konjevic Polje road?

Page 10160

1 A. No.

2 Q. Now, it goes on to state that the "1st Battalion had a historical

3 responsibility for this particular area from just west of Bratunac toward

4 Kravica. Since mid-1993 when the line stabilised and after the

5 declaration of the Srebrenica safe area, this unit was responsible for

6 this geographical area. This remained true through at least 16th July

7 1995."

8 And then it goes on: "However, while responsible for part of the

9 area, Kravica and Sandici fell specifically in the zone of the

10 4th Infantry Battalion."

11 Now, let me focus your attention on this. Going back to what he

12 says that: "There was a historical responsibility for this particular

13 area from just west of Bratunac toward Kravica," did this battalion have

14 this "historical responsibility," as Mr. Butler would have us believe?

15 A. I think it sounds as an exaggeration, this poetical term

16 "historical responsibility." I simply don't understand it. Some areas

17 are mentioned here. I said a couple of words about that yesterday, but I

18 can say again; a battalion does not have a zone of responsibility. Not

19 even the brigade has one. A battalion has an area of defence. And

20 whether it can be held responsible for a certain part of the area of

21 defence depends on whether we have enough power. We were not even able,

22 in our specific case, to control even that road. I, for instance,

23 experienced an ambush on that road where some of my men were killed. The

24 road was impossible to control, so that claim absolutely doesn't stand up

25 to scrutiny.

Page 10161

1 Q. All right. Now, if we look at the map, just so we understand

2 this, this historical responsibility that Butler claims the 1st Battalion

3 had, he says: "Just west from Bratunac toward Kravica."

4 Can you find where Bratunac is and we can go westward from

5 Bratunac towards Kravica, so at least we can see where Butler has placed

6 your historical responsibility to.

7 A. Bratunac, the Bratunac town is here. My battalion was on these

8 positions. The 4th Battalion was there. And Kravica is right there. So

9 it was even behind the lines of the 4th Battalion, to the right of the 4th

10 Battalion. And even if you look far into the depth, Kravica could not

11 count as a part of our area of defence.

12 Q. But just again, because we need to have a clear record, first of

13 all, point Bratunac out.

14 A. [Witness complies]

15 Q. All right. And we will be able to locate Bratunac on the map.

16 And just refresh our memories. Where were your lines as of the 12th of

17 July, before you moved them, that is?

18 A. Before the 6th, they were in Lomenac Brook, exclusive; Pajici;

19 Lemesac; there is another feature here, Stolice; trig point 532, Vresinje;

20 and over here is Jezestica; and trig point 555, Ilina Bara, exclusive.

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 Q. Okay. Incidentally, when you were -- you were questioned, were

Page 10162

1 you not, by the Office of the Prosecution?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you recall Mr. Butler being there?

4 A. I think he was.

5 Q. Were you ever asked any questions with respect to -- with respect

6 to where the lines were at the time when he asked you?

7 A. Yes. That's one of these maps that I marked, if that's what you

8 mean.

9 Q. Okay. All right. Because we're going to get to another map at

10 some point. Now, I want to look at another section of Mr. Butler's report

11 and ask you some questions. And this is with respect to -- and I'm

12 referring to page 57 and 58. In particular, I want to read you a portion

13 and see if you could help us out here. I'm reading from page 58, top of

14 the page. This is part of paragraph 6.40. And it's in the -- again, the

15 narrative. And I don't have the number available at this time, for the

16 record, but we'll get it. It says: "On the basis of this order" -- this

17 is the order of the 13th that we looked at earlier, "the command of the

18 Bratunac Brigade issued order 453-2 dated 13th of July." That was the

19 order we looked at earlier this morning. "This order signed by the

20 brigade commander, Colonel Vidoje Blagojevic, directed all four battalions

21 to conduct sweep operations in various areas, specific to the 1st and 4th

22 Battalion operating to the south of the Bratunac/Konjevic Polje road, the

23 following instructions were given."

24 Now, based on the order that we looked earlier, were you asked to

25 conduct any sweeping operations south of the Bratunac/Konjevic Polje road?

Page 10163

1 A. I don't understand, first of all, this term "clearing" or

2 "sweeping." What is it supposed to imply? If a ground search, terrain

3 search, is meant, our task was to search the terrain to the south of the

4 road.

5 Q. All right. And then he goes on to say that -- he specifically

6 quotes from the order that we read which says: "The 1st Infantry

7 Battalion will search the terrain of the former enclave of Srebrenica on

8 the right side." And it talks about the junction of "Bratunac/Konjevic

9 Polje/Jezestica road K316."

10 So are we talking south of the Bratunac/Konjevic Polje road? If

11 you look at those trig points from the order that we've discussed earlier

12 and you look at the map, is that south of the Konjevic Polje road?

13 A. Yes, it is south.

14 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, I want to go to the -- another exhibit

15 that has come in. And this would be --

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, are these exhibits related to the

17 Butler report?

18 MR. KARNAVAS: No, this is a separate exhibit.

19 JUDGE LIU: Time for a break.

20 MR. KARNAVAS: Oh, I apologise. I didn't notice.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 Well, we'll have a break and we'll resume at quarter to 11.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, are you finishing your direct

Page 10164

1 examination in this session?

2 MR. KARNAVAS: Soon, yes.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

4 MR. KARNAVAS: This session.

5 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.

6 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.

7 Q. Just before we -- while we still have the map there, could you

8 tell us -- you told us where your lines were. Could you show us where

9 your second echelon units were located, since you were in a decisive

10 defence.

11 A. I didn't even have the second echelon. I did not have a company

12 in this second defence line.

13 Q. And that would be necessary, would it not?

14 A. Of course it would.

15 Q. Okay. Thank you for clarifying that.

16 Now, if we could go through what has been marked as P91. And if I

17 could just focus your attention.

18 MR. KARNAVAS: We won't be needing that map any longer -- at least

19 we won't be needing it right now.

20 Q. If I could focus your attention to July 3rd, and perhaps we can

21 keep this off the ELMO. But just look at July 3rd. Do you see the first

22 paragraph in these notes dated 3 July 1995?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. And is that an accurate description of the events as they

25 were unfolding?

Page 10165

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is there anything that you wish to comment on with respect to this

3 meeting that took place on 3 July 1995?

4 A. Maybe this point on which I kept insisting all the time so that we

5 get assistance to reinforce the movements of military patrols around town

6 so that our defence line be filled to capacity at that moment.

7 Q. All right. Are you referring to -- well, for lack of a better

8 term deserters, or soldiers that would leave their lines without

9 authorisation?

10 A. Yes. We call it absent without official leave. There were many

11 reasons why people abandoned their positions. 80 per cent, for instance,

12 of my battalion were men whose houses had burnt during the attacks by the

13 28th Division, because as you well know all the villages around Bratunac

14 had been burned down by the forces commanded by Naser Oric. Those people

15 were very hard up. And it happened sometimes that they had to go home to

16 do some work in their fields so that they could earn a living. However,

17 that was a problem for me because I had to ensure combat readiness. And I

18 always lacked personnel to be engaged for this task.

19 Q. Incidentally, did you have any soldiers who came from villages

20 that were in the territories controlled by the Muslim forces that became

21 somewhat liberated after the 11th or 12th of July 1995?

22 A. I had some soldiers from those villages, too.

23 Q. All right. Now, if we could go on to July 5, 1995, it says -- the

24 point that I wish to bring out to your attention and perhaps you can

25 comment on it. It says: "The chief of staff will go to the 1st Battalion

Page 10166

1 to increase accuracy and direction of artillery fire."

2 This is 5 July 1995. Do you know whether the chief of staff did

3 in fact go or come to the 1st Infantry Battalion?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And could you please explain to us what exactly was the purpose,

6 what does this entail "increase accuracy and direction of artillery fire"?

7 What does that mean?

8 A. This is a usual organisational task that is performed in order to

9 arrange the firing system. Namely, particular weapons are assigned the

10 direction of fire or even an area of fire, depending on the calibre.

11 Decisions are made as to where to lay minefields as to have better

12 engineering on the positions, achieve coordination, things like that.

13 This is some kind of preventive work so that at a given moment the

14 complete system of defence could work properly.

15 Q. All right. If we could go on to July 16th, and incidentally let

16 me correct myself. This is D165 as opposed to P91, as I had made

17 reference to earlier, this document. Here it indicates that the: "1st

18 Battalion at full strength to be given task in the area of combat activity

19 in Zepa."

20 Did that occur?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. And I believe we talked about the previous orders that one

23 was for you to send men to Trnovo, and then it was cancelled the next day.

24 Correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10167

1 Q. All right. Now, if we could go to October 16, 1995, I want you to

2 look at -- if we could locate that page, please.

3 A. Right.

4 Q. If you could look at the very last sentence in this page. All

5 right. Do you see that, sir?

6 A. I see. Some things are illegible, but I can assume what it's

7 about.

8 Q. Okay. Well, let me read it for you. Under "Nikolic," that would

9 be Momir Nikolic. I assume you knew the gentleman.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. And it says: "We are currently engaged in tasks issued by

12 the Army of Republika Srpska General Staff," and in parentheses it says,

13 "sanitation," though I believe in Srpski, it says asanacija. Do you see

14 that?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. And if we were to look above as to who attended the meeting, it

17 would appear that you were present at this meeting, were you not?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, I want you to roll back the film to 16 October 1995, if that

20 is possible, and please tell us what, if anything, you recall with respect

21 to this that was being mentioned by Mr. Nikolic at that period.

22 A. According to what I remember, yes.

23 Q. All right. Was there a discussion, sir?

24 A. No.

25 Q. All right. Were any questions posed as to why the General

Page 10168

1 Staff -- why Nikolic was engaged on activity or tasked by the General

2 Staff, since he was a member of the brigade?

3 A. No questions were asked of that kind.

4 Q. All right. Thank you.

5 Now, I want to go to another set of documents. First, we'll go to

6 a map, a map that has been prominently displayed, much discussed. And I'm

7 referring to P369. I believe I have the only copy. If we could look at

8 this map. First, perhaps we could -- if you could move it from -- and

9 then perhaps we could show the first part -- there you go. Thank you,

10 sir.

11 Now, have you seen this map before?

12 A. I cannot remember if maybe the Prosecution showed me the map

13 before, but the map basically says nothing to me.

14 Q. All right. We're going to go step by step. All right. First of

15 all, we see some official lettering on this and it reflects that this is

16 the -- this is a map of the zone of responsibility of the Bratunac

17 Brigade. And we see the name of a Colonel Zivanovic who was the

18 then-commander of the Drina Corps.

19 Do you see that, sir?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now -- so at least we have a title of this map, do we not? On

22 this map we have a title?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. It shows that Colonel Zivanovic -- it has Colonel Zivanovic's

25 name. Right?

Page 10169

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. Now, first of all during those days did you ever see this map?

3 A. No.

4 Q. All right. Secondly, is this map an official map?

5 A. No.

6 Q. First, tell us why it is your opinion that this is not an official

7 map, even though it says "zone of responsibility, Colonel Zivanovic." We

8 have those names; we have the title.

9 A. Well, the many shortcomings in the map. First of all, if it had

10 been approved, it should have been signed by Colonel Zivanovic and

11 certified by a stamp.

12 Secondly --

13 Q. Polako, polako. Where would that be? Where would the signature

14 be and where would the stamp be?

15 A. The signature would be here next to the name, so would the stamp.

16 Q. Okay. Next. What's the next problem with this map?

17 A. The next flaw in the upper right-hand corner, there should be, in

18 addition to what there is already, the degree of confidentiality, it

19 should have said when the map was -- began and when it was completed. And

20 also it should specify the period of how long this map should be kept on

21 file. That is also missing.

22 Q. All right. So it would have a beginning and an end date?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right. What about the title? I mean, it's large --

25 A. The title is incorrect because a brigade, as a joint tactical

Page 10170

1 unit, is not assigned any area of responsibility. If it is on the

2 defence, it has a defence zone or vice versa, an offensive zone.

3 According to our rules that we adhered to and that we still adhere to,

4 only these two categories exist for a brigade.

5 Q. All right. Well, let's look at this geographical area that is

6 purported to be the zone of responsibility. And maybe you can help us out

7 here. First of all, where is the Drina River so we can orient ourselves?

8 A. [Witness complies]

9 Q. Okay. And that would be the boundary, would it not, between

10 Bosnia and Herzegovina and Serbia, the Drina?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. And so now if you're at the Drina, we're going westwards

13 into Bosnia. Correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Okay. All right. Now --

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. If we look at the western, the western-most line on the zone. You

18 go all the way out west and you see the last -- the line, where is that

19 and what is that?

20 A. That's a zone that encompasses even the area of Srebrenica, which

21 is also illogical, which area until 1995 was not under our control.

22 Q. All right. Anything else that you see wrong with this?

23 A. First of all, this map should have been signed by an appropriate

24 officer or organ that drafted the map, including the title of the person

25 in charge and also the signature of the officer. This is also missing on

Page 10171

1 the map. In addition to that, these border lines that somebody has

2 drawn - and I don't know the product of whose imagination that is - I'm

3 not quite sure what they represent.

4 Q. Where would the signature, the name and the signature of the

5 author, the creator, the genius behind this map, where would that be?

6 A. The name of this genius should be in the bottom right-hand corner,

7 the signature, and plus a legend should be included here, indicating or

8 explaining what these markings mean.

9 Q. All right. Now, while we have the map here let me ask you: Are

10 there any specific rules that give guidance as to what is and what is not

11 an official map for military purposes?

12 A. Yes, there are rules.

13 Q. All right. Well, perhaps we can look at those rules to see

14 whether this map comports with the rules. Let me show you what is marked

15 as D184. And I would like you to look at the instructions on working maps

16 in the armed forces. Do you have them, sir, in front of you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, it says here that -- it has a date of 1979. Do you see that?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. If we go all the way up it says: "Federal Secretariat for

21 National Defence." And it's even a military secret.

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.

24 MS. ISSA: I'm just wondering if Mr. Karnavas can tell us where he

25 got this document. There's no ERN number on it.

Page 10172


2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, this document we received from one of the

4 officers. We provided this document to the Office of the Prosecution

5 months ago; we translated it for them, so they have it. I'm trying to lay

6 the proper foundation at this point in time. But these are official rules

7 which were available to the Prosecution prior to us coming here today to

8 make reference to them.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, could you be more specific. You said: "We

10 received from one of the officers."

11 What does that mean?

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, it was one of the witnesses who has already I

13 believe come in through 92 bis. And if my memory serves me correct,

14 Your Honour, it was Officer Goran Lazarevic. He's on the list of 92 bis.

15 It's a book, just like all the other books that we've seen. Usually it's

16 red with a little star; that's common for that period. We had the

17 original book itself. We copied it, and then we had it translated.

18 So Mr. Butler, had he been -- you know, had he been careful

19 enough, he would have asked for that particular book as well because all

20 the other books he's copied we seem to have.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. McCloskey, is it a procedural issue?

22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yeah, it just has to do with the history and just

23 to respond to that. We do not have -- and looking at our records haven't

24 received any of this stuff. We may be able to work that out between us

25 ourselves at the break. And we have had a very difficult time getting

Page 10173

1 these books over the years, extremely difficult. They are sensitive

2 books, so the comments about Mr. Butler are really not appropriate. But

3 we just want to know -- I don't doubt Mr. Karnavas has got these books

4 from some source and that they are likely legitimate. We would just like

5 to have some background on that.


7 I think you furnish those books or at least a copy of this book to

8 the other party a month before?

9 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. When we received it -- we

10 received the physical book itself from the gentleman, and he's still

11 serving so he makes reference to them. We received it. We copied it. We

12 provided the original version. And then we had the -- we had it even

13 translated officially. And then we provided the translation to the Office

14 of the Prosecution. Now, had the Prosecutor asked me to provide or to

15 show them the original, I would have been able to borrow it. I don't have

16 it physically. I haven't purchased it; I don't know if I can. But I have

17 seen it. The gentleman, Goran Lazarevic, you will note in his 92 bis

18 statement, there's also a map attached to it. He makes reference to

19 this -- to these instructions as well. It won't be a problem if they want

20 to check the copies that we've provided. I can make arrangements to

21 have -- to show him the -- an original book.

22 JUDGE LIU: And those documents or instructions are the official

23 documents?

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, it's official -- it's bounded just like all

25 the other instructions we have on the brigade. I'm also going to be

Page 10174

1 referring to a battalion manual. This also has been translated and it

2 also has been provided to the -- this may have an ERN number, I think.

3 But yes, it's an official document. If you look at the -- if you just

4 compare the manuals, you'll see they all look the same. They all have the

5 little star and it all has the same language. And this is part of the JNA

6 material that the VRS used at that period of time. And that's what I was

7 going to go into.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

9 MR. McCLOSKEY: We never received one of those. It's probably

10 just an inadvertent discovery situation, which as we know both sides have.

11 And --

12 MR. KARNAVAS: Well --

13 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is -- it's not such an easy subject when

14 you're talking about these things. If I recollect one of the military

15 experts was highly critical of Mr. Butler regarding his discussion of

16 whether or not the rules and regulations of the former JNA were used or

17 used as guidelines for this case. And so I'm sure this witness can help

18 us on that subject. But it's a little difficult when we do not have the

19 books or the translations of the books. But again, I have no reason to

20 believe this has been any -- is anything more than an oversight and I

21 don't have any problem with us going forward as long as we can get

22 together when this is over and try to get this material.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation.

24 Mr. Karnavas, you may proceed.

25 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you.

Page 10175

1 And I'll apologise to the Prosecution if they haven't received it.

2 I was told that they have received them. Obviously there is a glitch, but

3 that won't be a problem.

4 Q. If I could just draw your attention to that document, sir. First

5 of all, I want to lay a foundation. Have you seen these instructions on

6 working maps in the armed forces before?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. And where have you seen them, sir?

9 A. During my schooling and later in my career I used it while I

10 discharged the duties of an operational training organ.

11 Q. Now, do you know, sir, whether these instructions - and we

12 have -- they are dated 1979 - were they, in fact, being used by the VRS

13 back in 1995, or 1992 I should say?

14 A. Those who knew about this, applied it. And those who didn't, just

15 like those who drew these maps, didn't use it because obviously they

16 didn't know of it.

17 Q. Well, let me ask you what I'm trying to get more concretely. Did

18 the JNA adopt other instructions, other than the ones that you have in

19 front of you, or were these instructions the official instructions on

20 working maps for the JNA -- for the VRS? I apologise.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. Now, you have the whole set. And just so that the

23 Prosecution knows, we asked only that the pertinent parts be copied -- I

24 mean be translated, although we have the full contents of this document,

25 the table of contents.

Page 10176

1 If you could look at the rules and point to us which rules are

2 pertinent when we want to determine whether this map, the one that we

3 looked at, has any validity or not.

4 A. On page 22, item 25 of the instructions.

5 Q. Okay. That would be on page 14 of the English. And we're looking

6 at numbered paragraph 25. Okay. Please comment then.

7 A. It specifies here exactly who and what kind of maps are made and

8 by whom. And it enumerates the working map of the commander, of the

9 staff, of combat army organs, of service organs, of political activity

10 organs. That's the one that we didn't have, in fact, because it was

11 outdated. Then the map of the intelligence organ, of the security organ,

12 for coordinated action, and what it says here in the translation, a clear

13 map with a question mark.

14 Q. Okay. Let's go step by step. This paragraph 25, this deals with

15 what?

16 A. Paragraph 25 deals only with listing the types of maps prepared by

17 the then-JNA and afterwards by the VRS.

18 Q. All right. And then are there any paragraphs within these

19 instructions that specifically deal with each one of these items, that is,

20 what is a working map of the commander, a working map of the staff, and so

21 on?

22 A. Yes. On page 23, para 28 explains what the working map of the

23 commander is.

24 Q. All right. Now, we don't need to go through all these paragraphs

25 that deal with what each map should contain. But in looking at the title

Page 10177

1 of this map, "zone of responsibility of the Bratunac Brigade," do you know

2 under which of these listed titles this map would fit in?

3 A. I wouldn't be able to say who could draw a zone of responsibility,

4 which, as I emphasised, did not exist as a term. So I have no idea who

5 could possibly have made this map.

6 Q. But what I'm asking you is: From A to J, which one of these would

7 this map fit in?

8 A. Under none of these items.

9 Q. All right. And prior to coming here today, have you looked over

10 the various paragraphs that give the detailed descriptions of what each of

11 these maps require, that is, the map of the commander, map of staff, map

12 of combat arms organs? Have you looked at that?

13 A. As I said, I used to use this instruction in my career, so I am

14 familiar with what each type of map under a specific title should contain.

15 Q. All right. Now, what other articles do you think are relevant or

16 would be relevant in determining the validity of this particular map?

17 A. On page 44, paragraph 74.

18 Q. All right. What does that tell us?

19 A. It says what the finalised working map should contain.

20 Q. Page 28, sir.

21 All right. If you give us one moment here to locate it. Maybe we

22 can move it up the ELMO a little bit -- no, because we're looking at 74.

23 Further up. There you go.

24 So -- and this is under -- this is again D184 for identification.

25 And we're looking at paragraph 74. And above it, it says: "Establishing

Page 10178

1 the working map."

2 All right. Now, could you please tell us why is 74 pertinent.

3 A. It is pertinent because it shows what in general the map, that any

4 working map must contain.

5 Q. All right. And in fact, if we go on to 75, 76, and 77, we even

6 see more detailed information and even some examples, do we not?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, is there any other paragraph that is relevant, that might be

9 useful for us in determining whether the map has any value?

10 A. Paragraph 77 confirms what I said earlier, that each map must be

11 signed by stating the rank, the position, and the full name of the

12 signatory. What I would also like to add that if we were to analyse each

13 of the earlier drawn maps that I mentioned under para 25, and if we make a

14 comparison with this map, none of these maps can be considered proper

15 because the one that we have on the ELMO does not correspond to the

16 contents prescribed. It has no context as such. It has no basic

17 information. It does not say where the command post is, where the enemy

18 forces are. It is completely unclear. I really can't understand what can

19 anyone possibly deduce from this map, except for some lines that were

20 drawn on the map. But other than that, I just can't understand what it

21 represents itself. It has no content.

22 Q. All right. Now, you talked about that the map would also have a

23 legend.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What would be in that legend?

Page 10179

1 A. A legend would contain certain explanations, depending on whether

2 it's for the defensive or offensive purposes. Sometimes it contains the

3 textual and table parts. In the legend it says how the task at hand is

4 marked, how the immediate task is designated, the direction of the

5 battalion movements. Some signs or marks for better understanding or

6 maybe some less ordinary signs that will help you read the map more

7 accurately.

8 Q. All right. Thank you. I believe that's all I have with this

9 particular map and this instruction or these instructions.

10 And just a couple of houseclearing matters, because I want to be

11 as precise as we can. Let me show you what has been marked as D183. And

12 this is -- just, please, look at it first. Do you recognise this

13 document, sir?

14 A. I do.

15 Q. And could you please tell us what it is first.

16 A. It's a battalion manual specifying what kind of battalions it

17 refers to.

18 Q. Okay. All right. And have you seen it before?

19 A. Yes, I have.

20 Q. Okay. And where have you seen this document before?

21 A. During my schooling, that was one of the basic documents that we

22 studied. And after I finished my education, I frequently had this manual

23 in my hands.

24 Q. All right. Now -- and this would be the official manual, would it

25 not, that was being used at the time that you were in the

Page 10180

1 Bratunac Brigade?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. Now, in your testimony --

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Issa.

5 MS. ISSA: Yes, Your Honour. Sorry for interrupting, but just

6 wondering where Mr. Karnavas got this manual from as well, just like to

7 know whether it's another source or the same source.


9 MR. KARNAVAS: All right. Perhaps we can go into closed session.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session. I think that

11 private session is enough.

12 [Private session]

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Page 10181

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16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]


19 Q. Just for my peace of mind, would this be the kind of manual that

20 an officer would have with him in the field?

21 A. Yes, in peacetime.

22 Q. Okay. And again, is this the kind of manual that would be used at

23 the academy? So, for instance, if I went to Belgrade to the academy and I

24 wanted to get a hold of this manual, would I be able to?

25 A. You have a great aptitude for that academy; maybe one day you'll

Page 10182

1 graduate. But this is a basic book of rules which are followed in

2 following certain courses.

3 Q. All right. Just incidentally, when you were in Banja Luka, were

4 you ever asked to produce any working manuals, you know, that you would

5 use on a day-to-day basis?

6 A. No, that was not required.

7 Q. All right. Now, in your testimony - I just want to draw you back

8 to the point where we veered off - you've repeatedly indicated that

9 there's no such thing as a zone of responsibility. You talked about it

10 for -- at the brigade level and you also were very specific about it at

11 the battalion level. Could you point us out to any particular paragraphs

12 in this manual that may give any weight, support, to what you've told us

13 here under oath.

14 A. Yes, I can.

15 Q. Okay. And I want to go step by step. Just give us the number and

16 give us a little time to find it. Just tell us the number of the

17 paragraph; that's a little easier.

18 A. On page 164, para 320.

19 MR. KARNAVAS: That would be page 99, sir.

20 I take it the Prosecution can follow it with their copy of this

21 document?

22 MS. ISSA: That's fine, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: Okay.

25 Q. Now, what is -- what area is it that you wish to direct our

Page 10183

1 attention to?

2 A. I wish to draw everyone's attention to the fact that it's

3 emphasised here that a battalion receives an area of defence, as opposed

4 to a zone of responsibility. It is emphasised that in depth it covers one

5 defence position of the high unit.

6 Also in para 321, which is the next paragraph, it is underlined

7 that: "The width of the defence area of the battalion on manoeuvrable

8 ground and on the centre of the defence may be 3 to 5 kilometres, whereas

9 the depth may be 2 to 3 kilometres."

10 Q. So when we're speaking about a defence area, we're talking about a

11 particular line that has a length and a depth. Is that what you're

12 telling us?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. All right. And so I take it if we were to go back to the earlier

15 map, the earlier map that you had worked on yesterday, we would be able

16 to - and we're not going to go through it just yet - but if you were to go

17 through this, you would be able to show us the depth of your line. You

18 were able to draw the length. And then based on this, you would be able

19 to show us the depth of your line pursuant to the rules. Correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right. So go on. Anything else?

22 A. In this rule, there is a very graphic diagram of deployment of a

23 battalion in an area of defence which shows all the things that a

24 battalion is required to have in order to mount a successful defence. In

25 those days, I have to say, I would have been very happy if I had had all

Page 10184

1 these things. And I would feel safer, because I would have a

2 well-organised firing system. However, I didn't have all these things for

3 various reasons.

4 Q. Let me stop you here. Let me put this diagram, which isn't the

5 original, just so we know. And I'm going to need you to slow down a

6 little bit because we want to go step by step. This is the diagram that

7 you're referring to. I apologise for not having this translated.

8 Okay. First of all, what does this diagram -- in which -- under

9 which paragraph is this diagram found in the book?

10 A. In paragraph 320. It is indicated.

11 Q. Okay. Okay. So this is -- I know, but in the translation we

12 weren't able to do it. So this diagram is part of paragraph 320?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. Now, in looking at this diagram, could you just please

15 explain it to us, what does it -- because we're not military folks around

16 here, so maybe you can help us out. What are we looking at? And go step

17 by step.

18 A. From the top to the bottom of this diagram, it's emphasised that

19 what is described here is the combat disposition. And on the right hand

20 it says "area of defence."

21 On top, you see this acronym BOS which means combat support. It

22 shows here that it could be up to an equivalent of one platoon. In this

23 area it's the 3rd Platoon of the 3rd Infantry Company. It should be ahead

24 of the line.

25 The next item is this semicircle. These two semicircles indicate

Page 10185

1 companies on the first defence line. Each of them has a width, 1 to 1.5

2 kilometres, which for the total of the battalion constitutes 3 to 5

3 kilometres. Typically these companies are also deployed. They have their

4 own platoons on the second line, second echelon platoons. That is very

5 necessary because it gives manoeuvring space to the commander of the

6 company and commander of the platoon. This is a marking for the

7 4th Anti-Armour Group, anti-tank group. Every modern army should have

8 one. This marking here, this sign, indicates a mortar group. This sign

9 indicates the post of the company commander, where he is located. This

10 sign here designates the battalion anti-armour group, the size of an

11 anti-armour company. The next --

12 Q. Let me stop you here for a second. I need you to slow down

13 because it has to be translated.

14 So I take it -- and you were demonstrating on this document which

15 will become part of -- which will be given an exhibit number and have it

16 translated, but you were just referring to the first half of the page.

17 And you were pointing at the left semicircle and the contents that were in

18 that semicircle in what will be marked for identification purposes as

19 D189. I take it the right semicircle would have pretty much the same as

20 the left one. Correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Okay. Now, let's go to the bottom half, the second -- the

23 semicircle that's at the bottom half that's below the first two

24 semicircles. Okay. Slowly.

25 A. All right. This semicircle here represents a company in the

Page 10186

1 second line, second-echelon company. As you can see, it is deployed in

2 this way, two platoons forward, one platoon behind. Within the framework

3 of the platoon, two sections are up front, one section is behind. The

4 same organic structure, I already said they have an anti-armour group. At

5 the same level of that second-echelon company would be the command post.

6 This sign here, this triangle marked by 1 designates the command post. In

7 the immediate vicinity of the command post, as a rule, you should have

8 this small sign indicating the firing position of a light artillery rocket

9 platoon of air defence.

10 Right behind that is the firing position of the battalion firing

11 group. And behind all of them is the logistical platoon.

12 Q. All right. Now, while we're at this, this is what's in the rules.

13 Tell us what you had available, that is, concretely, what did this

14 particular battalion have available at the time. Or you may want to go

15 with what you did not have. That may be quicker.

16 A. Well, I didn't have most of this. I can show you what I did have.

17 First of all, I wish to emphasise that the battalion was defending an area

18 much broader than 5 kilometres; it was closer to 10 kilometres. So my

19 battalion was defending two areas like this. Of all these enumerated

20 units, I only --

21 Q. Slow down, please. Please slow down, because it has to be

22 translated and we don't want to miss a word. Okay.

23 So first of all -- let me walk you through this. It might be

24 easier. With respect to the length, it says here "3 to 5 kilometres."

25 What was the length of territory that you were required to cover?

Page 10187

1 A. About 10 kilometres.

2 Q. Okay. So, twice the amount than what the rules require?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. Okay. Now, on the bottom half of that page we talked about the

5 second echelon. This would be the second echelon defence line. Is that

6 it?

7 A. Yes. Yes. Second echelon company.

8 Q. Did you have that?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Okay. Did you have any of it?

11 A. I had a command post and next to the command post I had my

12 logistical platoon. And I had mortars. But all that means little without

13 this second echelon company.

14 Q. Okay. Now, going to the top part, tell us slowly one by one what

15 you did not have.

16 A. I did not have combat support. I have this line, only the first

17 line of defence. All this behind within the framework of companies I did

18 not have. I didn't have mortars, nor did I have any anti-armour weapons

19 within companies, nor did I have the second-echelon company or the light

20 artillery rocket platoon. So many of the things from this general scheme

21 were lacking in my structure in those days.

22 Q. All right. Now -- now that we've covered this, going back to the

23 rules, incidentally before we leave this diagram, we see that the length

24 is 3 to 5. The width or the depth, that would be going backwards or --

25 A. Up to 3 kilometres, 2 to 3 kilometres.

Page 10188

1 Q. Right. But if we went -- if you look at the last paragraph of

2 paragraph number 321, what about if the area is mountainous, the terrain?

3 A. As for mountainous terrain, it was emphasised that the area of

4 defence for a battalion could be even over 5 kilometres, considering the

5 defence is usually organised across separate company areas, with each

6 company closing off separate directions, which means that only under these

7 circumstances, if the general disposition is met, only under those

8 circumstances can a battalion defend an area broader than 5 kilometres on

9 mountainous terrain.

10 Q. Okay. Were you able, sir? Concretely, were you able to exceed

11 the 5 kilometres?

12 A. Well, I had to.

13 Q. Now, what other paragraphs do you want to draw our attentions to?

14 Let me just speed up a little bit. I notice that from --

15 A. Yes, I've noticed this -- the role of the second-echelon company,

16 para 328.

17 Q. Okay. And para 327 would have what the first-echelon company

18 would require and 328 talks about the second echelon?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. So basically what you've already discussed earlier with the

21 diagram we can find in these paragraphs?

22 A. Yes, that's clear.

23 Q. Okay. Thank you.

24 Now, did you have a depth at the time? In light of the terrain

25 that you had to cover, which was twice the amount you told us, 10

Page 10189

1 kilometres versus 3 to 5, with the men that you had available, with no

2 second echelon, did you have a particular depth that you had to cover?

3 A. No, I did not have a specific depth. I wasn't able to cover it

4 anyway, so I didn't have any.

5 Q. All right. So then it won't be necessary to go to the map for you

6 to draw out the depth?

7 A. There's no need, I think.

8 Q. Okay. Thank you. I believe that will be it for the -- for these

9 notes.

10 Now, if we could go into -- no, we'll stick with -- if I can hand

11 you the next document, which is P391. If you could take a look at that.

12 Now, just look at it very quickly. Do you recognise the document, sir?

13 A. I do.

14 Q. All right. And what is this document?

15 A. This is an analysis of combat readiness for the first half of

16 1995. It's dated 4 July 1995.

17 Q. All right. Have you had a chance to look at this document before

18 coming here today to testify, sir?

19 A. Apart from seeing it at the proofing session with you, no.

20 Q. Okay. All right. But you have seen it -- you saw it at the

21 proofing session?

22 A. I did.

23 Q. Okay. Now, if we could look at this. And if you could draw our

24 attention to contents in this particular analysis of combat readiness that

25 you found relevant to the discussions here today.

Page 10190

1 A. What I would single out here to corroborate that previous

2 accession that we had to stretch ourselves thin beyond the extent of our

3 possibilities is found here on page 2. It is emphasised that the great

4 breadth, in brackets, around 43 kilometres.

5 Q. Now, this is -- our pages are different. So this would be ERN for

6 the English 00716536. All right.

7 So what do you want to draw our attention to?

8 A. I wish to draw your attention to the point which emphasises that

9 the brigade was defending an area 43 kilometres long. By any standard, by

10 any rule, such a wide area is impossible to defend successfully. To

11 defend an area of that width, three brigades would be needed. And then on

12 page --

13 Q. I want to stick -- step by step. Here we say -- here it says:

14 "Great width (about 43 kilometres) of the area of responsibility."

15 So here we have a term which you have told us doesn't exist.

16 A. It is a term which -- first of all, it is not a professional term.

17 But during that period it was used. I cannot say it wasn't, and you can

18 see from the document, it was used occasionally. But it was used probably

19 because some people found it easy to use this acronym. It is in essence

20 an inadequate term.

21 Q. Are you familiar with the rules for a brigade, the brigade rules?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. If we were to go into those brigade rules, would we find anywhere

24 in the rules that a brigade has an area or a zone of responsibility?

25 A. No, you cannot find it in that rule book. There is no reference

Page 10191

1 to it.

2 Q. Okay. Sticking with this -- staying on this page, is there

3 anything else that you find that might be useful for us to consider?

4 A. I can say that almost every point illustrates the difficulties and

5 the problems that were encountered in the process of commanding. The

6 first one indicates that there are -- there is a shortage of officers at

7 every level, which means that untrained, unqualified, unprofessional

8 people occupied positions of responsibility. And that caused problems to

9 all of us. And even the position that I occupied did not envisage

10 somebody like me in that position. One usually starts in one's career

11 from lower positions.

12 Q. Let me stop you here, and just if we could go into private session

13 for just a couple of questions on that.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session, please.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

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Page 10192

1 (redacted)

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3 [Open session]


5 Q. Now, what else on this particular page that talks about the

6 difficulties in the exercise of command and control?

7 A. In the next item it is emphasised that the area of responsibility

8 is expanded beyond the brigade's objective abilities. So it is underlined

9 that the brigade is not capable of defending a front line of that width

10 and consequently cannot control what is going on ahead of them or behind.

11 There were many ambushes at the time. There were many problems, all

12 because our method of mounting a defence was bad because we didn't have

13 enough people.

14 Q. All right. Anything else before we go on to another segment in

15 this particular document?

16 A. It also says here that we have no possibility for using any

17 reserve for manoeuvring by the brigade commander. As I said, each of

18 these items in itself is illustrative of the very specific problems.

19 Q. All right. Well, let me focus your attention later on further

20 into this document towards the end. And for the ELMO, it would be on page

21 49, 00716479. Here it states that -- that would be page 17 in the English

22 version.

23 Now, it states here: "In relation to its establishment numbers,

24 the brigade is at 128 per cent strength."

25 How do you account for that? One, you're telling me that there's

Page 10193

1 not enough personnel --


3 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, this has gone on for a while, but I don't

4 see how this witness can really testify to these matters. I don't

5 think -- largely, his answers are speculative. And, you know, I think

6 it's gone on for quite some time.

7 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour --

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think the first issue is that

9 this question is relevant to our case.

10 MR. KARNAVAS: It is, Your Honour. I think all these questions

11 are relevant for a variety of reasons. We have Butler's report. If we

12 want I can point out the sections in the Butler report where he talked

13 about --

14 JUDGE LIU: I mean that specific question.

15 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, this question, Your Honour, with respect to

16 128 per cent, for instance the gentleman has talked about the lack of

17 personnel. Now, one might look at this figure, such as Butler, or through

18 his agent, you know, the Prosecutor, and say, well, see, at 128 per cent,

19 how could this possibly be a brigade that lacked numbers. And this

20 gentleman has direct knowledge. This is not speculation. He was there.

21 He knows what was going on. If he's unable to answer this question, he

22 can tell us. But I believe we will hear an answer that is very relevant.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas --

24 MR. KARNAVAS: It's my last question on this document, too, by the

25 way.

Page 10194

1 JUDGE LIU: You have to understand that sometimes something in the

2 paper is one thing and something in practice is another.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: I totally agree, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE LIU: I think you have already made your point here.

5 MR. KARNAVAS: Well, I was just going to ask this one question on

6 this one figure just so we can -- because I don't want anything being left

7 unturned, any doubt in anybody's mind.

8 JUDGE LIU: Okay. Turn that stone as soon as possible.


10 Q. All right. It says here "128 per cent." You are telling us that

11 you lacked personnel, you didn't have enough for a second echelon. Can

12 you give us an explanation?

13 A. Yes, I can. First of all, one should bear in mind that this

14 brigade was called the light infantry brigade. It's a huge difference

15 between the infantry, motorised, armoured brigade. First of all, the

16 difference is in the strength per establishment. I have no specific data,

17 and it can be computed mathematically exactly the number of men that

18 should be assigned to a brigade; probably be below 2.000 men.

19 Now, in a situation that I explained earlier, that a brigade was

20 expected to defend 43 [Realtime transcript read in error "4 to 3

21 kilometres"] kilometres long front, and as I said, according to the rules,

22 a brigade in principle defends 10 to 15 kilometres of area. And that

23 primarily refers to infantry brigades, motorised brigades, or mechanised

24 brigade, or armoured brigades, so brigades of such type that have higher

25 strength. This percentage of 128 per cent includes a number of men who

Page 10195

1 were wounded or were in other areas for the whole time. For instance, we

2 had people in different places that I wouldn't name now. This is just a

3 simple figure which does not necessarily have to mean that at that point

4 in time there were so many men on the front. And I'm sure there weren't.

5 In some reports, it has been mentioned frequently where higher-ranking

6 officers from the brigade command came to inspect the troops that the

7 specific numbers on the ground did not correspond to those on paper.

8 Q. All right. Just one point of clarification. The record here says

9 4 to 3 kilometres long, but I believe, if I heard you right and if my

10 Srpski is accurate, you said 43 kilometres long. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes. It says 43.

12 Q. All right. Okay. I don't have any further questions on this

13 document.

14 MR. KARNAVAS: I do have a couple other documents, Your Honour.

15 It would probably be 10 minutes, tops 15. So if it's okay to take the

16 break now and ...

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes. We'll take a break and we'll resume at 25

18 minutes to 1.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 12.07 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 12.36 p.m.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.

22 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 If we could be in private session for the next two matters. If

24 that's okay.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session, please.

Page 10196

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

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Page 10197












12 Pages 10197 to 10205 redacted, private session














Page 10206

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18 [Open session]


20 Q. I just want to show you this one last document. It's -- we bring

21 it out with most of the witnesses, D132. It's dated 4 July 1994. It's an

22 information by Mr. -- by Lieutenant Colonel Ognjenovic.

23 First of all, do you ever recall seeing this document?

24 A. I don't recall.

25 Q. All right. Now, if you look at paragraph 2 and sort of the last

Page 10207

1 part of paragraph 2, there is a discussion here, information, as to

2 attaining a final goal, an entirely Serbian Podrinje, "the enclaves of

3 Srebrenica, Zepa and Gorazde must be defeated militarily," and it goes on

4 about the expulsion of Muslims from the Srebrenica enclave, making the

5 enemy's life unbearable so that they leave.

6 Sir, were any orders issued or was any policies in place that you

7 were aware of while Lieutenant Colonel Ognjenovic was the commander?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Now, when Colonel Blagojevic took over the Bratunac Brigade, do

10 you recall whether he pulled out this information by Lieutenant Colonel

11 Ognjenovic and whether he had instructed the commanders and the soldiers

12 of the Bratunac Brigade that this would be -- that he would be carrying

13 out the already-existing policy that's reflected in this document?

14 A. No. We have this specific document of the 5th, issued by

15 Commander Blagojevic, and everything is specified there. It is a purely

16 military document.

17 Q. This one is predated by a year and one day, 4 July 1994. During

18 that one-year period, were you aware of any activities that you were

19 engaged or the others were engaged in pursuant to Lieutenant Colonel

20 Ognjenovic's orders and carrying out this information?

21 A. I am not aware of specific orders, and I don't know what that

22 would mean.

23 Q. All right. Do you place any value on this particular document,

24 D132, this information?

25 A. No. I can just observe that it is an exaggeration. How can

Page 10208

1 somebody link up different enclaves? Ognjenovic was, among other things,

2 a journalist, so maybe he gave himself some license. Because journalists

3 can blow things up occasionally.

4 Q. I've been told that.

5 Lastly, do you have an opinion about your commander back in July

6 1995 and afterwards, that is, Colonel Blagojevic? Do you have an opinion

7 what kind of a commander he was?

8 A. I have a very good opinion of him. He was an honourable man, an

9 honourable officer. He was well-intentioned in his relations with

10 subordinates, always ready to help. And certainly - I'm saying this in my

11 own name - he certainly never ordered me to commit any folly in terms of

12 what was going on in that territory. He was burdened with great problems

13 at the time as to how to resolve the situation. He didn't have an easy

14 time. I just want to point out on one occasion when I addressed him,

15 asking him for help on a different matter unrelated to this, he told me:

16 Mr. 2nd Lieutenant, invest all your intellectual and other abilities to

17 solve your problem. That's all your commander can tell you.

18 I understood then, and on many other occasions, that his hands

19 were tied. A commander had huge responsibilities and very few abilities,

20 very few means of dealing with them. The situation in the field developed

21 often quite beyond our expectations and our abilities. We had a huge area

22 to defend and very few people to defend it, and I wish to emphasise, an

23 enormous number of problems. I also wish to underline my very positive

24 opinion of Commander Blagojevic. Many other people like him would have

25 been equally unable to deal with the multitude of enormous problems that

Page 10209

1 he was facing.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. KARNAVAS: I have no further questions. I have you very, very

4 much for your frank answers. Mr. Stojanovic, who represents Mr. Jokic,

5 may have some questions. The Prosecution may have some as well as the

6 Judges. If you can be as frank and forthcoming with them as you have been

7 with me, I would most it.

8 I have no further questions.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 Mr. Stojanovic, do you have any questions to this witness?

11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

12 And good afternoon, Witness.

13 If I may ask Your Honour for this screen to be moved slightly so

14 that I can see the witness while asking my questions.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 Cross-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

18 A. Good afternoon once again.

19 Q. Allow me, only in view of your qualifications and your detailed

20 testimony yesterday and today, to show you an excerpt from these rules of

21 the battalion which you used in the examination by Mr. Karnavas. If you

22 would please look at para 76 of the rules of the battalion. As a

23 reminder, could you tell us what are the main responsibilities of

24 battalion commander, the responsibilities that you had in 1995.

25 A. They are enumerated and specified here in a very concise manner.

Page 10210

1 "The commander has the exclusive right to command a battalion and all the

2 units attached to it for the performance of a certain task. He is

3 responsible for the proper operation of the battalion and all the

4 subordinate commanding officers; the status of political awareness and

5 morale" - although we deleted political awareness later - "security,

6 combat readiness; training; proper use of the units; and the execution of

7 the given task."

8 Q. At this point could we stop a bit. When it says "the commander of

9 the battalion has the exclusive right of command," what does that imply?

10 A. That implies that no one but him is allowed to command in his

11 presence.

12 Q. And a follow-up question now. Who gives orders to the battalion

13 commander in terms of the chain of command and the hierarchy?

14 A. Only a brigade commander or his deputy.

15 Q. Would I be right in drawing this conclusion: That a chief of a

16 certain service of the army would not be entitled to issue orders to a

17 battalion commander?

18 A. No, that should not happen.

19 Q. Thank you. Let us now turn our attention to Rule 77 on the same

20 page. If the battalion commander is absent for whatever reason, the

21 deputy battalion commander should stand in, according to establishment?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. Would I be right in saying that the deputy battalion commander is

24 a person who has the same authorisations as the battalion commander in the

25 latter's absence?

Page 10211

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And he neither would be able to receive orders from the chief of

3 another branch of service of the army; he would only be receiving orders

4 from the brigade commander?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. May I just ask you to turn to para 79, which stipulates the

7 responsibility of the assistant commander for intelligence and security.

8 Did you in your battalion have this position filled, according to

9 establishment?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What are the responsibility of assistant commander for

12 intelligence and security on battalion level?

13 A. These responsibilities are enumerated in para 79.

14 Q. For the record, could you tell us what those responsibilities are,

15 slowly please, so that we don't have to tender this whole document into

16 evidence.

17 A. "The assistant to the commander for intelligence and security

18 carries out and organises the expert tasks related to intelligence and

19 security support in the battalion. He monitors and assesses the

20 situation, the intentions and abilities of the enemy, his intelligence,

21 subversive and other efforts, and proposes measures to the commander to

22 counteract such enemy activities."

23 Shall I read on? I've read the most important part.

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 10212

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 Q. The duty officer's responsibility was to convey your message to

6 the brigade commander or the appropriate person. That was in the context

7 of communications exchanged on the 11th of July, the movements and

8 developments around your positions?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Would you agree with me if I said that it was the responsibility

11 of the duty officer at the brigade command in terms of paragraph 66 of the

12 instructions of -- on operations of commands and headquarters only to

13 convey your informations -- information to the commander or the superior

14 headquarters, only to forward what you have to say?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. He is not a person who is able to give you orders; he can only

17 convey orders?

18 A. There is a situation, a last-resort situation, when neither the

19 commander nor his deputy or any authorised person is available, and in

20 that situation the duty operative officer can issue an order. But before

21 that, he has to exhaust all the possibilities for contacting the

22 appropriate superiors. And only after failing to find any one of them he

23 can issue an order. But that is a very extreme situation.

24 Q. So if the brigade commander is around or the chief of staff is

25 around or any one of the superior officers at the command, the duty

Page 10213

1 officer is only to convey your message to them?

2 A. Correct. For instance, the chief of the operations and training

3 is number 3 in the brigade. So following that hierarchy, if none of the

4 superiors is available, the duty operations officer is bound in such a

5 situation to do something.

6 Q. However, in normal situations, the duty officer is only a relay

7 transmitting your information to the brigade command and onwards?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. Thank you. If I may now draw your attention to para 147 of the

10 rules of battalion. It is an area that governs engineer support within

11 the framework of a battalion. Could you please, very briefly, give us an

12 account, a description, of engineer support and who provides it?

13 A. Engineer support provides some basic tasks which do not differ

14 much even at higher levels of command, such as brigade. The first and

15 principal task is the mounting of obstacles, securing movements by

16 operating engineering machines, camouflage. These are the principle

17 tasks, and of course security, fortification.

18 Q. Thank you. According to this para 147, it says that all this

19 activity is to be carried out according to a plan provided by the superior

20 command which specifies works to be performed by the battalion and which

21 works are supposed to be implemented by the engineering unit of the

22 superior command.

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Would I be correct in deducing that battalions had their

25 engineering support and in that sense they had certain tasks, as described

Page 10214

1 here?

2 A. Of course. They had engineering support.

3 Q. This engineering support at battalion level, did it also include

4 the possibility of mounting obstacles?

5 A. Yes, such as minefields.

6 Q. So battalion engineering would be the one who would put obstacles

7 to secure foremost defence lines of the battalion?

8 A. In ordinary units, in normal units, ordinary soldiers can do that.

9 From the unit where I come from, every soldier is trained to plant an

10 anti-personnel or an anti-tank mine. It all depends on the type of

11 engineering unit which is built into a battalion or another establishment

12 unit.

13 Q. Speaking of engineering support, an engineering unit should be

14 able to provide other activities, mounting obstacles, construction,

15 fortification, et cetera?

16 A. Yes, certainly. This is all encompassed by the word

17 "fortification."

18 Q. So it would be correct to conclude that certain engineering works

19 can be performed by specialised units within the framework of a battalion?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Thank you, Witness.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

25 We have about 20 minutes left. Certainly that cross-examination

Page 10215

1 could not be finished today, so I would like to ask the opinion from the

2 Prosecutor whether you will want to start your cross-examination today and

3 continue tomorrow, or we have an early break today and begin your

4 cross-examination tomorrow morning at 9.00.

5 Ms. Issa?

6 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, I have no preference. I'm in

7 Your Honour's hands. I can either start now or start tomorrow. I agree

8 with Your Honour, I don't believe I will be finished today, so the witness

9 will have to return tomorrow in any event. So perhaps it might be better

10 to take the break now, since there isn't too much time left.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I think that's a good answer. Whenever I ask

12 your opinion, you have to express some tendency so that will help me to

13 make the decision.

14 Well, Witness, I'm sorry that you have to stay here another day.

15 I believe that you still remember what I told you yesterday.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't forgotten.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

18 So the hearing for today is adjourned. And we'll resume tomorrow

19 at 9.00.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

21 at 1.26 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

22 the 3rd day of June, 2004,

23 at 9.00 a.m.