1 Wednesday, 7 July 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case Number
8 IT-02-60-T, The Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
10 Good morning, Witness.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
12 JUDGE LIU: Did you have a good rest last night?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
14 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to start?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
17 Mr. Stojanovic, please continue your direct examination.
18 WITNESS: MILAN MARIC [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Examined by Mr. Stojanovic: [Continued]
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
22 Mr. Maric. Can you hear me?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. If you recall, yesterday at the end of the day, we spoke about the
25 duties, powers, and competence of the duty operations officer. Do you
1 recall that?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. I will put just a few more questions to you about the situation in
4 the duty operations room, and then we will move on and talk about the
5 events of those days.
6 Please tell us where were duty officers' duties performed
8 A. In the office of the duty officer in the command. It was on the
9 first floor, and it was the first office to the right.
10 Q. Was this a separate office used only by the duty operations
11 officer, for that specific purpose?
12 A. Yes. It was a separate office designated for the performance of
13 that duty.
14 Q. According to the rules, was entry prohibited to anyone else but
15 the duty operations officer to that office?
16 A. Those who were not the duty operations officer or his assistant or
17 the courier were not allowed to enter that office.
18 Q. Please tell us what kind of communications equipment was available
19 to the duty operations officer in that office.
20 A. The duty officer in that office had an external line, a telephone
21 line, and he had another telephone which had an internal connection within
22 the barracks. And through the switchboard to all the units in the
24 Q. Let's be quite specific about this. Does this mean that in that
25 office there were two telephones available to the duty officer?
1 A. Yes, that's right. There were two telephones that the duty
2 operations officer could use.
3 Q. Was there a Motorola or a UKT piece of equipment or a RUP piece of
4 equipment in that office?
5 A. No. This equipment was not there. It was in the communications
6 centre which was one floor above that office.
7 Q. What was upstairs above the duty operations office?
8 A. It was our brigade's communication centre with all this equipment,
9 radio equipment. It was a normal switchboard, both telephone and radio
11 Q. Let's apply this specifically to the situation at the time. You
12 were on duty on the 12th, and you had to call the command of the
13 Drina Corps, Zlatar. How were you able to do that?
14 A. I would contact Zlatar by contacting the switchboard. The
15 switchboard would respond, and I would say, "Put Zlatar on the line." I
16 would stay on the line. I would hear them looking for Zlatar, making the
17 connection. Zlatar would respond. Or I would be put through to the
18 switchboard, and I would ask for whoever I wanted. That's how
19 communications were established.
20 Q. At your request, did your switchboard call Zlatar's switchboard
21 and ask for a specific person, the one you requested, or did they call the
22 person you were looking for directly?
23 A. Most often, I would ask for the Zlatar switchboard. They would
24 put me through to them, and then I would ask for a specific person. That
25 was the most frequent situation.
1 Q. So you would call your switchboard, your switchboard would put you
2 through to Zlatar's switchboard, and then through Zlatar's switchboard,
3 you would ask for a specific person?
4 A. As I said, this is what happened most often. But sometimes I
5 would tell our switchboard, "Find so-and-so at Zlatar," and they would set
6 up communications with that person, and then they would pass it on to me.
7 So both ways could be used.
8 Q. Could you assist us now and see what this looked like the other
9 way around. You as the duty operations officer would receive a call from
10 someone from Zlatar or Badem, the Bratunac Brigade. How did that
11 communication function? How was it established? Would they call you
12 directly or would they go through the Zvornik communications centre?
13 A. If they were going through the switchboard, the switchboard would
14 put them through to me, and they would tell me, "You've got Zlatar on the
15 line." I would respond as the duty officer and start the conversation.
16 Q. Did it happen in practice that the duty officer from Zlatar or
17 from Badem or from whatever position would tell your operator, "Pass on
18 such and such a message to the duty operations officer," without
19 contacting you directly? Did this kind of situation occur?
20 A. Yes, this happened sometimes. I might get messages in this
21 manner. Or maybe by radio. All the messages sent by radio would come to
22 the centre, and they would bring me a telegram which I would open and
23 read. I would see who it was from and what it was about. It would also
24 happen that the person calling didn't use this kind of connection. They
25 would call directly through the telephone, public telephone network,
1 because that was a telephone we had. And that's how we would establish
3 Q. Thank you. So both kinds of communication could be used?
4 A. Yes. Three kinds of communication, because there was also the
5 radio communication.
6 Q. Let me just ask you one more thing: When daily and interim combat
7 reports were sent, whose documents were those? Who signed daily and
8 interim combat reports?
9 A. These are official brigade documents, and the commander of the
10 brigade would know what they contained, and he would sign them.
11 Q. Therefore, information for the higher commands, the superior
12 commands, was sent through the daily and interim combat reports. Is that
14 A. Yes, it is. This was a regular duty performed by the unit. By
15 2200 hours, the daily report would be sent. And the information it had to
16 contain was well established, and then it was forwarded to the superior
18 Q. My question is as follows: What was the duty of the duty
19 operations officer in this whole procedure of compiling and dispatching
20 daily and interim combat reports forwarded to the superior commands? What
21 was the role of the duty operations officer?
22 A. The duty operations officer, based on the events that had occurred
23 during the day, during his shift, would prepare the report as a draft, and
24 he would take it to the commander for approval. The commander would read
25 it. He might perhaps add something or alter something. And in the end,
1 he would sign it. And then the report would be sent by telegram to the
2 corps command.
3 Let me say that no report or telegram could be sent, the
4 communications centre would not agree to send it unless it was signed by
5 the commander and chief of staff.
6 Q. So hypothetically speaking, if the duty operations officer had to
7 send a daily combat report to the superior command at 2200 hours, the
8 encryptor and the signalsman would not send such a report unless it was
9 signed by the brigade commander and chief of staff?
10 A. Precisely so. Every document sent through the communications
11 centre had to be signed, and especially the report, because this contained
12 not only information as to what had been happening, but also our requests
13 to the superior command or questions concerning our previous requests. It
14 was a very important document.
15 Q. It seems logical now to ask, was it ever possible for the duty
16 operations officer on his own initiative to send off a daily or interim
17 combat report without the knowledge, approval, and signature of the
18 commander or the chief of staff?
19 A. As far as I know, this was not possible.
20 Q. Mr. Maric, we have had the opportunity here to see various daily
21 and interim combat reports containing a text, and then the signature of
22 the commander or chief of staff, and then in the margin, the initials of
23 the duty operations officer, slash, most often MV, Misko Vasic as the man
24 on duty in the office. Would you please explain to us the method or
25 rather what these initials mean? Why are they there?
1 A. At the bottom of the report on the left-hand side were first the
2 initials of the person who compiled the report, which was most often the
3 duty operations officer, slash, the person who typed it out. And on the
4 right-hand side would be the commander's signature.
5 Q. So it was only when it had been signed by the commander or the
6 chief of staff that the encryptor could dispatch this report?
7 A. Yes, that's correct. That was what happened as far as I know. No
8 document could be sent off if it had not been signed and approved by the
9 commander or the chief of staff.
10 Q. Does this mean that the commander and the chief were the persons
11 whose duty it was to make sure that the superior command was informed on
12 time of all the events in the area of the brigade?
13 A. Yes, that's correct. The commander had to be informed of
14 everything that had happened, of the entire overall situation in this area
15 of defence. And through this report, he had to inform the superior
16 command of the overall situation so that the superior command would know
17 what the situation was in their area of responsibility.
18 Q. Thank you. If you could just tell us how this procedure
19 functioned from the top down to a lower unit. You said that the duty
20 operations officer could never issue orders to battalion commanders, to
21 units within the brigade. Sometimes you would have the situation that the
22 superior command or the commander or the chief of staff would ask its
23 battalion to do something. Can this go through the duty officer; and if
24 so, how is it done? What does the operations duty officer do?
25 A. Subordinate units also had a certain time period, two hours or so,
1 before the brigade compiled its daily report. They had time to send in
2 their report to the duty officer in the brigade. And then there would be
3 a complete report made from those summarised reports for the entire
5 Sometimes it could happen that the battalion commander would ask
6 the brigade to do something through its daily report or in regular
7 communications with the duty officer, if the commander wasn't there.
8 Maybe he would ask for artillery support or ask for ammunition, food,
9 anything from the command brigade. And this information would reach the
10 duty officer. The duty officer, if the commander or the chief of staff
11 were not there, would know where they were. If the message was urgent and
12 it could not wait for them to return, they would look for him and convey
13 to him that order or would convey the requests for a certain unit, what it
14 is they were requesting. Based on the answer or the response of the
15 commander or the chief of staff, that order would be transferred further.
16 So if the commander said, "Order the artillery chief to fire such and such
17 a number of shells in that sector," this would be written down and
18 conveyed to the person who was supposed to implement that order. This is
19 how this functioned.
20 Q. Since we have these notes in the operations -- duty operations
21 officer notebook, the commander or the chief of staff needs to take a
22 number of soldiers from a battalion and engage them in some other area to
23 protect the lines or to give them a different assignment that they needed
24 to carry out. Can the commander tell this directly to the battalion
25 commander, or can this be conveyed through the duty officer? "I require
1 ten soldiers from the 1st Battalion to go to the Orahovac sector," the
2 commander says. Where is the operations duty officer in all of this?
3 A. The commander could communicate directly with his subordinates.
4 He could call the battalion commander directly and issue him an order.
5 And he could also say that to the operations officer and say, "Send such
6 and such a message to such and such a battalion that ten soldiers be sent
7 to such and such a sector." So both of these ways were possible.
8 Q. Is it possible for the duty operations officer to say on his own
9 to the battalion to send ten soldiers to Orahovac without having such a
10 request or an order from the commander or the chief of staff?
11 A. It was not possible, and as I said at the beginning, I was a
12 battalion commander. And if I received such a message, it was impossible
13 to receive such a message because the duty operations officer did not have
14 the right to issue such an order. And it would seem like a joke to me.
15 It was just not possible.
16 Q. Do you want to say that you as battalion commander would never
17 accept something like that from the duty operations officer but would seek
18 an order from the commander or chief of staff? Is that what you're
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, leading.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. You may put your question another way,
22 Mr. Stojanovic.
23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. Does that mean, Mr. Maric, the question is as follows: Is it
25 possible, then, ever for the commander of the battalion to accept such an
1 order from the duty operations officer without this being backed by an
2 order from the commander or the chief of staff?
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection to the form of the question. "Is it
5 possible ever ..." That is just so wide open in the context of human
6 existence that it really doesn't help us.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Maric, during the time you were the battalion commander, as
9 you said, did such a situation ever occur that a duty operations officer
10 would request something without it being backed by the commander or the
11 chief of staff?
12 A. No, it was not possible for the duty operations officer to issue
13 such an order. He can convey the order from the commander or the chief of
14 staff. But he himself could not order anything to the unit. This is
15 impossible. And if he did, no commander would implement this. They would
16 ask, "Whose orders are these? Could we have a direct communication with
17 the commander or the chief of staff to clarify the order?" And then it
18 could be implemented. That was the procedure.
19 Q. Thank you. One more question: Is the duty operations officer
20 duty-bound to ask the commander or the chief of staff why he required
21 those soldiers in Orahovac?
22 A. No, the duty operations officer does not have that right, and this
23 did not happen for him to ask for an explanation or clarification of an
24 order. The commander issues orders, but there can be no disobedience or
25 questioning of such an order.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maric. We will come back to certain notes that you
2 made when we propose to tender documents as exhibits. Now we are going to
3 move to a different topic.
4 On the 12th of July 1995 in the morning, you took over as duty
5 operations officer. Could you please briefly tell us what you did as duty
6 operations officer that day. Were there any characteristic events?
7 A. On the 12th of May [as interpreted] when I took over the duty, I
8 found out that a larger group of Muslims were blocked in the region of the
9 8th Battalion and that fighting had already started. I received
10 information that one Muslim was captured, that there were four killed.
11 And the commander in the course of the day --
12 JUDGE ARGIBAY: Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Stojanovic. The
13 transcript said the 12th of May. I think it's a mistake. It should be
14 July. Can we correct that.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. For the record, I just wanted to clarify something, Mr. Maric.
17 Are you speaking about the 12th of July?
18 A. Yes, I'm talking about the 12th of July when I was the duty
19 operations officer.
20 Q. Thank you. Well, I will just use this to interrupt you for a
21 moment. From whom did you receive information about there being one
22 captured and a certain number of killed?
23 A. I received this information from the 8th Battalion, through our
24 communications centre, and I wrote down this information in the duty
25 operations notebook.
1 Q. Where was the 8th Battalion? Where was it located? In which
3 A. The 8th Battalion was located near Bratunac, and its command post
4 was in Kajici.
5 Q. After you received this information, what did you, as duty
6 operations officer, do? Who did you inform?
7 A. According to regular procedure, I informed the chief of staff.
8 And he immediately ordered me to convey this to Petkovic from the
9 intelligence organ and for him to go to Kajica Potok to get the prisoner.
10 I informed him and conveyed the order to Petkovic to do what the chief of
11 staff ordered.
12 Q. What happened later? Did you receive any return information about
14 A. No, I did not receive any return information about that. I don't
15 know whether he went there or not. And I don't know what happened later.
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the last sentence
17 of what the witness said.
18 A. Later, the chief dictated an order for me for subordinate units,
19 and this related to the preparation of the units to allocate a certain
20 number of men and to keep them ready in the sectors of their commands, to
21 allocate one platoon each up to about 40 soldiers, to keep it ready in
22 their units except for the 4th and the 7th Battalions which were supposed
23 to take up with one platoon positions in the depth of their defence in
24 order to prevent an attack from the rear. This is the 4th Battalion in
25 Baljkovica and the 5th Battalion in Memici. The 4th Battalion is to
1 occupy an area in Motovska Kosa in the depth of their zone, and the
2 7th Battalion was supposed to occupy Cetino Brdo and Drenovic. Then he
3 ordered one group--
4 Q. If you allow me, Mr. Maric, I need to interrupt you for a second.
5 Everything has to go into the transcript, everything that you say. So I
6 will ask you once again to speak more slowly if you can. And the last
7 sentence of your previous answer was not recorded. Could you please
8 repeat it. I will ask you again. Did you ever receive any kind of return
9 information about what the intelligence organs did in regard to the
10 captured person in the 8th Battalion?
11 A. I did not during my shift receive any information. My assistant
12 neither was informed about what happened with the implementation of that
13 order. So we didn't receive any information about it.
14 Q. Thank you. And now, we will go back to what we were talking
15 about. After the commander issued that order to inform the battalions,
16 did you convey that to the battalions?
17 A. Yes, that is correct. I think that the chief of staff dictated
18 this order, and this order was conveyed to all the battalions.
19 Q. Were there any troop or unit movements that evening within the
20 zone of defence?
21 A. That day, the 12th, there were no activities. There were some
22 sporadic mortar fire in the front section, but nothing significant
24 Q. Did Obrenovic that evening move a part of the Kiseljak or
25 2nd Battalion to new positions that you mentioned?
1 A. In the telegram, Obrenovic ordered one self-propelled gun and one
2 armoured transporter to be ready, and these other battalions that were
3 supposed to provide the men were to be ready. This included the 2nd or
4 the Kiseljak Battalion. There were no movements outside of the zone. All
5 the units were in their place. After this telegram, the chief -- I saw it
6 out in the corridor when he issued an order to Dusko Vukotic to go with a
7 group of military policemen for reconnaissance in the area of Lijesanj and
8 Dzafin Kamen.
9 Q. Did they go?
10 A. I don't know. I didn't see if they went or not. I just heard it
11 out in the corridor when the chief of staff issued an order that he should
12 go for reconnaissance with a group of military police in order to gather
13 information about this column about which we had received information. We
14 received information about its movements.
15 Q. Do you remember if you received any information or instructions
16 from the Drina Corps or from the Ministry of Defence that day?
17 A. A telegram arrived that day, it looked more like it came from a
18 civilian structure, from the Ministry of Defence rather than from a
19 military structure, to look at the transport options, buses and trucks, in
20 the area of the Drina Corps, to secure buses and other transport for
21 Srebrenica. As soon as I received this telegram, I gave it to the chief
22 of staff.
23 Q. If you remember, what was being requested of the Zvornik Brigade
24 in this telegram in view of securing these buses?
25 A. As far as I can understand, it was a general telegram for all the
1 municipalities requesting all transport vehicles, trucks, buses, to be
2 sent to Bratunac in order to evacuate the population from Srebrenica.
3 Q. You said that all of the buses should assemble in Bratunac. Do
4 you remember where they were supposed to assemble in Bratunac?
5 A. I really don't remember. I remember the telegram, and it looked
6 like a civilian telegram more as a kind of information. Because in the
7 Zvornik Brigade, we didn't have our own buses. I think we had two buses,
8 but they were not in very good working order. We ourselves when we used
9 the buses, when our unit used buses, we relied on the civilian structures,
10 on the passenger transport companies, or through the ministry, we would
11 secure the transport for our soldiers.
12 Q. You as duty operations officer, did you have any authority to
13 requisition these vehicles from civilian structures?
14 A. As duty operations officer, I did not have any competencies over
15 that segment, the one that you asked me about.
16 Q. Let me phrase this as a question. How would mobilisation or
17 requisitioning procedure be carried out if there was a need, for example,
18 to transport buses of the Zvornik Brigade? What would that procedure
19 look like?
20 A. Zvornik Brigade sent a lot of its units out on the field. And
21 frequently, we would use buses. As I've said, we did not have those buses
22 within our unit, so the most frequent procedure to secure buses was to
23 have the chief of staff or commander inform the chief of transportation
24 services in the brigade which was Mr. Pantic who used to work in a
25 transportation company before the war. And then he would contact the
1 Ministry of Defence because he knew how many buses there were, he knew
2 whether they were in working order. And then he would contact the
3 Ministry of Defence and ensure that a certain company provide a certain
4 number of buses which would assemble at a certain point, at a certain
5 hour. Therefore, he would also ensure fuel, food for the drivers, and
6 everything else that was needed.
7 Q. Does that mean that the brigade was not able to take a vehicle
8 from civilian structures directly, would rather have to go through the
9 Ministry of Defence and their office in Zvornik?
10 A. I personally wasn't present at any occasion where somebody from
11 the brigade would go and personally requisition a vehicle. I think that
12 it had to go through the ministry.
13 Q. By the way, let me ask you, in that system, the chief of arms of
14 service, would he be able to go directly to civilian structures and
15 requisition a vehicle that was needed by the army?
16 A. Now, whether he could do that, I don't know. Let me tell you, it
17 was wartime, and according to the rules this was within the scope of
18 authorities of the ministry. Most frequently, somebody from the ministry,
19 somebody from the unit or chief of arms of service would, together with
20 this requisitioning request, supported by the Ministry of Defence go and
21 requisition a vehicle.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, who would have to sign that request in that
23 system, the request to requisition a vehicle? Could that be the duty
24 operations officer, or would that have to be the chief of arms of service,
25 or somebody else?
1 A. These requests, all of the requests where a stamp was needed,
2 because only a document signed by the commander or chief of staff could be
3 stamped. So that was the required procedure.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maric.
5 Do you know why those buses were needed on the 12th of July? Why
6 were they requested? Did anybody tell you this? Did you have any other
7 sources of information? Do you know why those buses were needed?
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Asked and answered.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, I think we have spent a lot of time on that
10 issue. And it seems to me that everything is clear.
11 Would you please move forward, Mr. Stojanovic.
12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Q. Did you know that on the 12th of July, civilians were transported
14 from Potocari towards Tuzla and Kladanj?
15 A. No. I didn't know, a duty operations officer didn't know. I
16 didn't receive any such information that anybody was transported towards
17 our area of responsibility.
18 Q. On the 12th, did you see Dragan Jokic anywhere in the brigade?
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think there's some confusion in that.
21 Mr. Stojanovic if he knew of anyone transported towards Kladanj, and the
22 witness said he was not aware of anyone that was transported into the area
23 of Zvornik. So I don't think the question was responsive, but it just may
24 be because of a misunderstanding of the question. Kladanj, of course, as
25 we know is not in the Zvornik area.
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, maybe you could have it
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will repeat my question.
4 Q. Mr. Maric, on that day, on the 12th, did you know about the
5 transportation of civilians from Potocari towards Kladanj or Tuzla?
6 A. No. As duty operations officer, I didn't know about their
7 transportation. I didn't know about transportation of civilian
8 populations from Srebrenica towards Kladanj and Tuzla.
9 Q. Thank you. And following that, I asked you whether on the 12th of
10 July, did you see anywhere in the command of Zvornik Brigade Dragan Jokic?
11 A. I did not see Jokic on the 12th while I was on duty as duty
12 operations officer at all, nor do I know where he was.
13 Q. Mr. Maric, as duty operations officer, did you on the 12th know
14 anything about opportunistic killings which took place in Srebrenica,
15 Jadar, Konjevic Polje, and Sandici, and Potocari?
16 A. I did not have that information. This information did not reach
17 the duty operations officer, or myself personally.
18 Q. Thank you. Where did you spend the night between the 12th and
19 13th of July? And were you still on duty that night as duty operations
21 A. Yes. I was on duty until the morning on the 13th. I managed to
22 sleep a little bit. My assistant stood in for me. And I was on duty
23 until the morning of the 13th.
24 Q. You mentioned the assistant to the duty operations officer, let me
25 put a few questions to you regarding that. What are the duties of the
1 assistant duty operations officer?
2 A. The duties of the assistant duty operations officer is to replace
3 him while the duty operations officer is resting. The assistant would
4 normally be an officer who had less knowledge about what was going on and
5 would inform the duty operations officer about anything that was going on.
6 Q. For the sake of the transcript, would an assistant normally be an
7 officer or a noncommissioned officer?
8 A. As a rule, the assistant would be a noncommissioned officer.
9 Q. Thank you. That night between the 12th and the 13th of July, were
10 there any intense combat operations going on? Were there any problems in
11 the area of the brigade?
12 A. As far as I can remember, there was no combat action going on,
13 nothing of significance was going on in the area of defence of the
14 brigade. There was no movement of units. The self-propelled vehicle and
15 Praga were standing ready. Those were the orders, the orders that were
17 Q. Do you know where Dragan Obrenovic spent that night, the night
18 between the 12th and the 13th?
19 A. Dragan Obrenovic was at the command. He came that evening.
20 During the day, he came and went. And that night, he spent at the
22 Q. When did you hand over your duties as duty operations officer on
23 the 13th and to whom?
24 A. On the 13th, I handed over my duty to the assistant for logistics,
25 Sreten Milosevic, at around 9.00.
1 Q. The handing over, was it conducted in accordance with the rules
2 that you described to us yesterday?
3 A. Yes. I informed him about everything, the procedure that was
4 implemented was the one regulated by the rules. He took over. I was
5 supposed to have a day off that day. And after I handed over my duties, I
6 did not go home, but rather stayed at the command in accordance with the
7 orders of the chief of staff.
8 Q. Were there any significant activities of movements of units that
9 morning, on the 13th of July?
10 A. That morning, on the 13th of July, a unit assembled. I think it
11 was an ad hoc unit. There were about 25 soldiers from another battalion,
12 about 15 members of the engineering company. Then we also had some donors
13 there, 12 to 15. Then we had a logistics platoon from our brigade, about
14 15 to 20 people altogether. And I think that the chief of staff ordered
15 them to go to Snagovo sector in order to protect Serbian villages in that
17 Q. Who was the commander of that ad hoc unit?
18 A. The most senior officer, the only one who was there, and that was
19 Dragan Jevtic. He was the commander of the engineering company who had a
20 group of -- who was leading a group of about 15 members of the engineering
22 Q. Where did you spend the morning or the afternoon hours of the
24 A. I was at the command on the 13th. I went to sleep, to have some
25 rest. And in the afternoon, I think it was 5.00 or 6.00 p.m., I received
1 a call from the chief of staff. He asked me to come to his office and
2 ordered me to go in a vehicle to Snagovo to find the unit that had been
3 sent up there because allegedly Jevtic couldn't really carry out his
4 duties, was unable to organise that. It was obvious that that wasn't a
5 combat unit, that had not seen combat before and that he was experiencing
6 some problems with the unit.
7 And at around 6.00 p.m., I drove in a vehicle to Snagovo.
8 Q. Can you remember what vehicle you drove in?
9 A. I think that it was an Opel Record. Acimovic was the driver. I
10 know that -- I remember that he was also scared. He didn't really want to
11 drive because the road had been blocked for the past 24 hours. However,
12 we did set out anyway.
13 Q. If you went from the command of the Zvornik Brigade to Snagovo,
14 did you have to pass through Orahovac?
15 A. Yes. That's right. From Rasica in Karakaj, one would take the
16 asphalt road through Orahovac bypassing the settlement itself, taking the
17 highway. And then you would go to Crni Vrh, and then from Crni Vrh, you
18 would turn left on the macadam road and continue on to Snagovo.
19 Q. Can you tell us what time it was on the 13th when you passed
20 through Orahovac?
21 A. That was before the dark. I think that it was around 6.00 or
22 7.00 p.m.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. That was a misstatement of the
25 evidence. He did not pass through Snagovo, he passed through on the main
1 road, bypassing -- sorry, Orahovac. He didn't pass through Orahovac; he
2 bypassed it on the main road. Given what was going on in Orahovac at the
3 time, that's a very important distinction.
4 JUDGE LIU: I believe that you have been to that location. For
5 us, I have never been there. I don't know how that roadway, whether it
6 runs past, through the city, or just bypass it.
7 Mr. Stojanovic, would you please be more specific on that issue.
8 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I
9 sincerely hope that you will be able to see it for yourself.
10 Q. Witness, when you say "I passed through Orahovac," did you mean
11 that you passed through the village of Orahovac? This asphalt road that
12 you were taking, did it actually go through the settlement itself, through
14 A. The main road has a sign saying "Orahovac," meaning the settlement
15 of Orahovac. And the main road does pass through the settlement; however,
16 before an overpass, there is a turn where -- which you can take if you
17 want to go into the settlement itself, which would be some 500 metres away
18 from the main road.
19 Q. On that road, is there a tavern called Nedjina Kafana?
20 A. Yes. That's right. Before the railway overpass, where there's a
21 turn to take to the village, on the right some 30 to 40 metres away, there
22 are two shops. One of them is actually a tavern, the so-called
23 Nedjina Kafana.
24 Q. Driving at a normal speed, how long would you need to travel from
25 Snagovo to the command of the Zvornik Brigade? How much time would you
2 A. Taking this road that I described, one wouldn't need more than 25
3 to 30 minutes.
4 Q. What about the intersection where you turn to Snagovo, the
5 intersection where you take the macadam road leading to Crni Vrh, how long
6 would you need to get to there?
7 A. Not more than 20 minutes.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will now ask the usher to
10 assist us so that we can show the witness a map showing the area the
11 witness has just spoken about. And we will show the Court the notes that
12 Witness Milan Maric entered into the map of that we were able to see
13 yesterday which was used during the interview he gave to the investigators
14 of the Tribunal.
15 Q. If you can, Mr. Maric, could you please use the pointer to
16 indicate on the map which is on the ELMO, very briefly, the direction or
17 the route from Zvornik, from the brigade command to Snagovo where you
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we seem to be having
20 a technical problem.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I beg for a little patience.
23 Thank you. Thank you for your assistance.
24 Q. Mr. Maric, if you could please indicate with a pointer on the map
25 which is on the ELMO what route you took that evening from the
1 Zvornik Brigade command to the crossroads for Snagovo.
2 A. From the Zvornik Brigade we took the asphalt road as far as
3 Karakaj. Then we took the main road as far as Crni Vrh. From there, we
4 took the dirt road or macadam road to Snagovo.
5 Q. Could you please show us where Orahovac is located or the Lazete
6 location as marked on the map.
7 A. This is the place. To the right is the road leading to the
8 village of Orahovac itself. This is the railway overpass, and the tavern
9 is some 40 metres from there.
10 Q. In this area, in the evening of the 13th, did you see any unusual
11 activity, any movement of vehicles or anything similar?
12 A. When I was driving along this road, there were no activities, no
13 soldiers. In Orahovac, the road was blocked, it was closed off. Here
14 there were civilian police, and the road was blocked.
15 Q. You say there was an obstacle placed there.
16 A. Yes, a wooden obstacle.
17 Q. And were you stopped at that obstacle?
18 A. Yes, I was. They told me that the road was blocked, that I
19 couldn't take that road. But I told them that I had orders from the
20 commander to pass along that road, and then they removed the obstacle, and
21 I was able to move on.
22 Q. Would you please show us where you went, where you met up with
23 Dragan Jevtic and the units that were there.
24 A. I met up with Dragan Jevtic in the area of Snagovo on the road.
25 This is where I found them all gathered together in that place. I saw
1 what the problems were. And then I deployed the soldiers in such a way
2 that they could defend themselves most effectively. The inhabitants of
3 the village were also there. They were upset. They were afraid. And
4 that evening, I received information that a unit of the special purpose
5 police from Doboj was to come and join up with us. It was to be brought
6 there by Ljubo Bojanovic. So we waited for that unit to arrive.
7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to say
8 that the map we are using for purposes of identification is marked D132/3.
9 Q. On that evening or during that night between the 13th and the
10 14th, were there any intense combat activities?
11 A. We didn't engage in any combat, the unit that was in the Snagovo
12 area. But we could hear sporadic fire coming from the 7th and
13 4th Battalions. But I don't think there was any intensive fighting
15 Q. To your left-hand side in the direction of the village of Maricici
16 and Zvornik, were there any units belonging to you, your army?
17 A. To the east in the direction of Zvornik, there were no units of
18 ours. And that's where we were expecting Ljubo Bojanovic who was to bring
19 a special purpose police unit from Doboj. As far as I know, at Kula Grad
20 near Zvornik, there were civilian policemen securing that area. But I
21 didn't see that. It was quite far off.
22 Q. Could you please use the pointer to indicate on the map to your
23 right this empty area where Maricici, Kula Grad, and Zvornik are located.
24 A. This was an empty area stretching as far as Zvornik. This is the
25 Maricici area.
1 Q. And Kula Grad?
2 A. This is Kula Grad.
3 Q. So at Kula Grad there were civilian policemen, and from there to
4 your left flank, there was no one?
5 A. That's right, there was no one there. And we had 50 to 60 men
6 which means that -- well, in military terms, they were poorly equipped
7 with no combat experience, without any support, without any proper
8 positions in the woods so that the situation was very difficult.
9 Q. That morning or that night, between the 13th and the 14th, did the
10 police from Doboj arrive and did you link up with them?
11 A. Ljubo Bojanovic did bring a group. I think it was between 200 and
12 250 special-purpose policemen from Doboj. And he joined up with us just
13 before dawn. I think it might have been 4.00 a.m. And then we linked up,
14 and this was the area that they -- where they took up positions.
15 Q. That morning or that night, just before dawn, did you personally
16 meet Ljubo Bojanovic?
17 A. Yes, of course. For them to come along that road from Maricici to
18 avoid any surprises, I took a group of soldiers and went a kilometre,
19 kilometre and a half ahead to meet them. So I met them personally, and
20 then we brought them back and linked them up with our unit.
21 Q. To whom was this police unit subordinated in military terms? Were
22 they acting on their own or in coordination or on the command?
23 A. This unit arrived at the request probably of our brigade. It was
24 sent by the Main Staff. And as soon as they arrived in our territory,
25 they were automatically resubordinated to the most responsible commander
1 in this area. That was their task which they received from the chief of
3 Q. And who at that point was in command of all these units, both your
4 unit and the police unit? Who was that person?
5 A. It was the chief, Dragan Obrenovic.
6 Q. This may be a good time to ask you. On that day, the 13th, while
7 you were in the command of the Zvornik Brigade, did you see Dragan Jokic
8 there at all and was he active in any way? Did he have any tasks?
9 A. I didn't see Dragan Jokic at all on the 13th.
10 Q. Would you tell me until when you had contact with and physically
11 saw Dragan Obrenovic at Snagovo on the 13th and during the night between
12 the 13th and the 14th?
13 A. I saw Dragan Obrenovic when he issued the order to me that I
14 should go to Snagovo. And the next time I saw him was on the 14th. I
15 think it was around 8.00 or 9.00 in the morning.
16 Q. Let me put it this way: In the night between the 13th and the
17 14th, did you see him at Snagovo at all?
18 A. No. He wasn't at Snagovo.
19 Q. Thank you. Would you tell us whether you know until when you were
20 with Ljubo Bojanovic and how long he stayed in Maricici and Snagovo, in
21 that area?
22 A. Ljubo Bojanovic brought the troops, linked up with us. And
23 immediately after that, he got lost. I didn't see him again. He wasn't
24 in that area. Whether he went back or where he went, I don't know. I
25 didn't see him after that in the Snagovo area.
1 Q. Thank you. In the morning of the 14th, were there any events, any
2 contacts with the armed column of the BH Army?
3 A. In the morning of the 14th, the soldiers took prisoner two Muslim
4 scouts who were on their way back from the Federation area, not from
5 Srebrenica, but from the Nezuk area in the opposite direction. These were
6 young men aged between 18 and 25. And they were wearing civilian clothes
7 and not carrying weapons.
8 Q. If I understood you properly, you said they were coming from the
9 area of the 2nd Corps of the BH Army going in the direction of the column
10 that was leaving Srebrenica?
11 A. Yes. They were caught when they were returning from that
13 Q. Who took these two men prisoner, these two Muslims? Which
15 A. I don't know exactly which soldiers they were, whether they were
16 from the group I mentioned or from the special-purpose police unit. When
17 I was touring the men I had deployed at certain positions, I saw those two
18 prisoners. And that was when the chief of staff arrived, around 8.00 or
19 9.00. I was present when these prisoners were questioned.
20 Q. And who questioned these prisoners?
21 A. The chief of staff personally.
22 Q. And who was the chief of staff?
23 A. The chief of staff was Dragan Obrenovic.
24 Q. Were you present during the interrogation?
25 A. Yes, I was. I was there while the prisoners were being
2 Q. And do you remember what they were asked about and what they said?
3 A. The chief wanted to know where they had come from, whose couriers
4 they were, how many Muslims there were, what direction they were moving
5 in, how many of them had weapons, how far away they were from us, in what
6 areas they were. This was all intelligence information. And let me
7 mention that on that morning, an officer was there, Milos Petkovic, from
8 the intelligence organ, and there was a group of military policemen with
9 him. There was a major there as well. I think his name was Zoran who had
10 brought a special unit from Doboj.
11 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this might be a
12 good time for a break. I think it's a convenient time.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will resume at a quarter to 11.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.
16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stojanovic, yesterday you promised us you only
17 needed 20 minutes to finish the direct examination. Now, we have been
18 here for over an hour. So I believe that your direct examination could be
20 Yes, you may proceed.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Mr. Maric, we will cover the events more quickly now, and let us
23 focus on the 14th and 15th, which is relevant for our Defence. Please
24 allow me to remind you that before the break, we got to the morning of the
25 14th and the conversation with the three prisoners of war. Do you
1 remember that?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. What happened after that and what you remember as characteristic?
4 A. In that period, while the prisoners of war were being questioned,
5 Zoran Jovanovic came, the operations officer from the brigade, and he
6 brought a group of 50 to 60 soldiers as reinforcement. Then, in that
7 period, I noticed two prisoners who had surrendered to the military
8 police. They were boarded on to a truck. I also saw a couple of soldiers
9 boarding the truck. I think that these were two soldiers from the
10 engineers, from Dragan Jevtic's unit, about three or four donors. And I
11 could see a small number of people leaving. I asked Jevtic, "Where are
12 you going? Where are these people going?" And he said: "Under
13 Obrenovic's orders, we're leaving." Obrenovic was there. He was about 10
14 metres away from where this was happening.
15 Q. How did you know that these were two engineers who were leaving?
16 Did you know them personally or did somebody tell you that two engineers
17 were leaving the lines?
18 A. I saw that Jevtic was angry. And I asked him, he waved his hand.
19 And he said that it was under Obrenovic's orders that two of his engineers
20 were leaving. He didn't tell me where they were going or why, and I don't
21 know whether he knew that or not.
22 Q. I'm asking you this because of the intercepts that I'm going to
23 show you later. In these activities when the engineers were released, did
24 you have any tasks or duties or did you take part in this in any way?
25 A. As I said, I didn't know about the order, nor who approved this.
1 But I saw that Obrenovic was there. I didn't question anything. He was
2 the commander.
3 Q. This example, does that illustrate what we talked about in the
4 rules? Did Dragan Jevtic as commander of the engineering company have to
5 act in accordance with orders of the chief of staff and release these two
7 A. Yes, that is correct, if he received an order from the chief of
8 staff to do so; he could have released the whole unit, the chief of staff.
9 So Jevtic would have to agree to carry out this task.
10 Q. Did you see Dragan Jokic anywhere there? Or did you have any
11 communication with him on that day, on the 14th?
12 A. I didn't see Dragan Jokic that day either. And I didn't have any
13 communication with him at all.
14 Q. That day, Dragan Jokic was the duty operations officer at the
15 Zvornik Brigade. Did you have the opportunity to have any kind of radio
16 communications with the duty operations officer, Dragan Jokic?
17 A. I didn't have any need, and I didn't call the duty operations
18 officer for anything. We didn't talk.
19 Q. Thank you. And what happened then on the 14th in the evening, in
20 the afternoon?
21 A. After we finished with the prisoners, the chief ordered the unit
22 to organise itself and to start to search the terrain ahead in order to go
23 towards the column that was coming in. Up until about 1800 hours, the
24 deployment proceeded. Zoran's men, the military police, they were being
25 deployed. And they began to search the terrain.
1 Around 1800 or 1830 hours, we clashed with the column of Muslims.
2 It was quite an intense clash. The fighting didn't last very long,
3 perhaps for about half an hour or so or an hour. Then there was sporadic
4 fire afterwards. Many of our fighters were killed at that time. There
5 were ones who were captured as well, and you could hear on the radio that
6 the commander, Major Zoran, from the command was captured. He was the one
7 who had brought the civilian police, the special police from Doboj. And
8 they were asking for a halt of the fire. The fire was halted later. We
9 continued to pull out our forces which had dispersed in contact with the
10 enemy, and this pullout went on until quite late into the night, until
11 about 2300 hours.
12 Q. Were these intense combat operations? Were there intense
13 exchanges? Was the fighting intense?
14 A. The clash itself was quite intense with a lot of casualties, with
15 a lot of killed and wounded, and many of our soldiers were captured alive.
16 This was then followed by sporadic fire.
17 Q. This combat column of the 28th Division, did it manage to break
18 through and continue along on its way? What happened with them?
19 A. In the evening, this column passed by. It passed through our
20 defence that we had set up. And then it crossed the asphalt road. The
21 Caparde-Zvornik main road. They passed through the sector of Planinci,
22 Perunike-Planinci, and continued on towards Krizevici, towards the
23 4th Battalion, towards Baljkovica.
24 Q. At the time, how far was the Zvornik Brigade first line of defence
25 away, far away from the 28th Division?
1 A. The front section of our defence was about 4 kilometres away from
2 the incoming column.
3 Q. Where did you spend the night between the 14th and the 15th of
4 July after this fighting which took place on the 14th in the evening?
5 A. The evening between the 14th and the 15th, I spent in the village
6 of Snagovo. It was about -- near the Stara Skola sector. We didn't know
7 what had happened to about 40 of our soldiers. It started to rain. There
8 was a storm. And we spent the night holding those positions around the
9 Serb houses.
10 Q. I wanted to ask you if you remember whether you saw
11 Dragan Obrenovic at any point that night when you were at Snagovo; and if
12 you did, where and when did you see him?
13 A. When we pulled out from the battle, I saw Dragan Obrenovic. He
14 was on the asphalt road in the village of Snagovo, and I saw him that
15 night. He was waiting to see exactly what had happened to the soldiers,
16 to see what the outcome of the combat operations was. He was at Snagovo
17 with us until midnight. He had his own vehicle, but he was also walking
18 along the asphalt road.
19 Q. When did you see him after that?
20 A. After that, I saw Obrenovic in the morning at dawn. He was also
21 in a vehicle. And then we continued to follow the tracks of the Muslim
22 column that had passed by. We reached Perunike, and that is where the
23 armoured personnel carrier went to the Crni Vrh sector with Major Krunic
24 and the most capable men. Some of the personnel, together with me, went
25 to Planinci, down to the asphalt road, and that is where we encountered
1 one of our fighters from the 7th Battalion, Dusko, who had gone to Zvornik
2 that night with the medical corps. He was very happy to see us. He
3 kissed us. He said that we had saved him. He said that the medical
4 personnel had gone to Zvornik. There were many wounded that night, and
5 they ran into a Muslim ambush set up by the Muslims who were passing along
6 that road. The driver and the male nurse were killed. He managed to save
7 himself. We sent him up to Perunike because Obrenovic stayed up there.
8 And we reported back to our people in the brigade to send some medical
9 staff and ambulances to gather the corpses. Afterwards, at around 9.00 or
10 10.00, when I went back to Perunike, Obrenovic was no longer there, and I
11 didn't see him since then.
12 Q. Well, let us then summarise this. From the 14th at night to early
13 in the morning on the 15th, you did not see Obrenovic. You saw him again
14 in the morning on the 15th. And then until 10.00 of the 15th when you
15 came back to Perunike, he had already left. Am I right?
16 A. We reached Perunike --
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, leading. On this topic, leading should
18 not be appropriate.
19 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, I think that's the difference
20 between the two legal systems about the direct examinations. And in these
21 proceedings, there's no need for the counsel to sum up whatever the
22 witness said. The Judges will read the transcript and arrive at his own
24 You may proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.
25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I didn't
1 have any intention to do so. I just wanted to complete this topic. But
2 let us continue. I think that this will not be in dispute anyway.
3 Q. What happened then on the 15th in the afternoon, Mr. Maric?
4 A. On the 15th, in the afternoon, the self-propelled gun remained
5 with Commander Tacka. The Muslim stragglers, the forces were passing by
6 us. There was sporadic fire that was being exchanged at a certain point.
7 Two or three uniformed members of the column were captured. We later
8 found their weapons. And sometime in the afternoon, I think it was
9 perhaps around 1700 hours, the commander, Pandurevic, asked me where I was
10 and ordered me to stay there at that position.
11 Q. Was this your first contact via radio with Pandurevic on that day,
12 on the 15th?
13 A. Yes, that was the first contact, so that's when I spoke with
14 Pandurevic, on the 15th at around 1700 hours.
15 Q. Does that mean that he was already in the Zvornik Brigade area of
16 defence at that time? Could you conclude where he was, at which position?
17 A. Based on our conversation, I concluded that he was in the Zvornik
19 Q. Did you explain to him the difficulties of your position, the fact
20 that you were there with just a small number of soldiers there in the
21 Perunike region?
22 A. Yes, that's correct. I tried to explain to him to tell him that I
23 was left with very few soldiers there and that I wanted to leave that area
24 and join up with the nearest unit. And he ordered me explicitly to remain
25 in that place.
1 Q. Based on that, did you conclude that he had taken over command
2 over the Zvornik Brigade?
3 A. Yes. He took over command over the brigade. He took over that
4 post from Obrenovic.
5 Q. Does that mean that from that moment on, you were to follow his
6 orders to remain in the position in which you were at the time?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. At one point just now, you said that that afternoon on the 15th,
9 there were also two or three soldiers from the column who had been
10 captured. What happened to them? Who processed them, so to speak? Who
11 interrogated them? What treatment were they given?
12 A. The soldiers received fair treatment. They were fed. I don't
13 think that there was any interrogation going on because we were in a
14 situation where we had no time for that, nor would we have somebody to
15 pass this information on. We couldn't hand them over to anyone else
16 because there was no police there, there were no other units of ours
17 there. It was raining that night. And the prisoners spent that night
18 with us. We organised some kind of a circular defence around the
19 self-propelled vehicle, and the prisoners were there with us.
20 In the morning, the soldiers were fine.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, the prisoners were
23 A. And I asked the commander to join up with Zoran and his people,
24 and I was told to go down to Kamenolom, to the quarry which is right below
25 Perunike. In the morning hours, that's exactly what we did. We descended
1 down there. Zoran's people were not there. We were told that they were
2 way down below, and we continued on until we came upon our soldiers. I
3 found Zoran at the terrace of Nedjina Kafana, the tavern, and I handed
4 over the prisoners there. There were people from our military police
5 there, and I think that they had already had three other prisoners. These
6 prisoners were not mistreated, although yes, they were bound. We handed
7 over our prisoners to the military police. Then the troops from the
8 logistics company of our brigade were returned from the barracks because
9 they had escaped. Pandurevic returned them. So I went to drive them to
10 their positions to the hill on the left from the road leading to quarry.
11 I stayed there for some two hours. And upon my return - I was really
12 tired at that point - I went back to Zoran. I saw that there were no
13 troops there, no military police, no prisoners. I asked Zoran what
14 happened to them. And Zoran replied that he was told that they had gone
15 to Zvornik with military police.
16 Q. Everything that you just told us, does this pertain to the 16th of
17 July 1995?
18 A. Yes, the 16th of July 1995.
19 Q. I'm asking you this for the following reason: We have already
20 heard many witnesses here, and it has become a fact that in the evening
21 hours on the 14th of July in Orahovac, mass executions of prisoners were
22 carried out. In the night between the 14th and the 15th, prisoners were
23 executed in Petkovci village, in Crveni Mulj, dam. So in those days on
24 the 15th and 16th, did you know that in your rear as the combat was going
25 on, the executions were also being carried out?
1 A. I was not aware of that, and I think the same applies to all other
2 people who were with me because they were fighting for their lives on
3 their positions. The combat was quite intense at the front section in the
4 area of defence of those battalions. Therefore, we couldn't even have
5 assumed what was going on elsewhere.
6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, that calls for conclusion, especially
7 as to the Dragan Jevtic who has released engineers earlier. He can't
8 possibly know what's in his mind unless he has some more evidence than
10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. And I think the witness has already
11 answered that question, and we'll take into consideration your objections
12 when we elaborate on that piece of the evidence.
13 Mr. Stojanovic, you may proceed.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Maric, how far was it from the positions where you were on the
16 14th, 15th, and 16th to the Crveni Mulj dam in Petkovci or in the sector
17 of the Petkovci village?
18 A. The Crveni Mulj dam is some 7 kilometres from that area as the
19 crow flies, 6 to 7 kilometres.
20 Q. And how far is it from the positions where you were at Crni Vrh or
21 in Snagovo to Orahovac?
22 A. About 4 kilometres.
23 Q. Thank you. When did you return to the brigade?
24 A. I returned to the brigade on the 17th. Commander Pandurevic gave
25 me a day off. I went home. On the 18th, I returned back to the brigade
1 and received an order to go with a group of military police, special
2 police from Doboj, to the sector of the 4th Battalion, Kitovnice, to
3 search the terrain there as they could still hear sporadic fire aimed at
4 our positions behind our backs. So we were busy with this search during
5 which time two of our soldiers were killed as a result of an ambush. We
6 discontinued further searching without defeating those forces which then
7 withdrew back to their depth. And I returned back to the brigade.
8 Q. During this search, did you capture any soldiers of the BH Army?
9 A. We didn't have any prisoners. Their forces withdrew to their
10 depth, back to the forest.
11 Q. Can you remember whether that was on the 18th or the 19th of July,
12 if you had a day off before that?
13 A. I think it was on the 18th. I think I went to the brigade on the
14 17th and had that day off, and that this happened on the 18th.
15 Q. Was Vinko Pandurevic already the commander of the brigade at that
16 time, did he have full command?
17 A. Yes, Vinko Pandurevic was in full command. He was physically
19 Q. Let us now turn to the period after the war. After the war, did
20 you remain with the Zvornik Brigade as an active serviceman?
21 A. After these events, I remained with the Zvornik Brigade.
22 Q. And for how long did you remain with the Zvornik Brigade?
23 A. I remained with the Zvornik Brigade until the establishment of the
24 Manoeuvre Brigade. I went to the Manoeuvre Brigade from the Drina Corps,
25 and I was demobilised from that brigade on the 20th of April 1996. For a
1 time I worked in a company. At the request of senior officers, the
2 commander, I returned to Zvornik Brigade as a professional soldier and
3 continued working there until 2000.
4 Q. What rank did you hold then, Mr. Maric?
5 A. The rank of major. The rank of captain first class was
6 discontinued, and I received the rank of major.
7 Q. And where did you go on to work from there?
8 A. I worked at the staff. I was officer for teaching and training.
9 I also worked as intelligence officer. After the departure of
10 Dusko Vukotic, I was appointed to that post. And as Obrenovic was
11 preparing his defence, as I've said yesterday, when he asked for an alibi
12 for me for the 13th and 14th, I couldn't confirm that he was with me.
13 Following these events, I was transferred to the corps command, although
14 my family lives in Zvornik.
15 Q. Let us pause here for a moment.
16 I didn't quite understand when you said that Obrenovic asked for
17 an alibi from you. What did he actually ask from you?
18 A. As he was preparing his defence - everybody knew that he was
19 preparing his defence for quite some time - he was calling senior officers
20 who at the time were holding such posts so that they could help him. That
21 included Ljubo Bojanovic, myself, Ostoja Stanisic, Lazar Ristic,
22 Milan Stanojevic, Momir Jasikovac. I know what discussions he had with
23 me. He asked for an alibi to cover the 12th, the 13th, and the 14th to
24 ascertain where he was and what he did. During the conversation, he
25 stated that issued orders for me to go to Perunike via telephone and that
1 he hadn't given those orders to me in the office. I said that wasn't
2 true, that he gave those orders to me in the office. Then he said he was
3 present with me the whole time when Ljubo Bojanovic brought in people. I
4 also said that wasn't true because I only saw him in the morning when he
5 was questioning witnesses. And then he said, "Well, where else could I
6 have been?" And I said, "I don't know about that." He was uncomfortable,
7 and one could notice that. And he said to me that I should refresh my
8 memory and that he would come back and talk to me later about this. In
9 the meantime, I was transferred to the corps.
10 Q. These words that Obrenovic uttered to you asking you to refresh
11 your memory and that he would come back and talk to you again, did you see
12 that as a warning that you should provide an alibi for him for the 13th
13 and the 14th?
14 A. I didn't take it as a threat; I simply saw that he was searching
15 through the papers, preparing his defence, trying to recollect the events.
16 And I thought that through that he was trying to achieve something. And
17 then I asked Ljubo Bojanovic because I want to verify my own
18 recollections, whether he had seen him in the forest as he was passing
19 through, and Ljubo said no, he didn't see him either.
20 Q. When you were presenting your defence to the investigators of the
21 Tribunal, did you inform them about these facts relating to the conduct of
23 A. Yes. That was one of the topics of our conversation. And yes, I
24 informed them about these facts.
25 Q. Did you also say to them then that you thought that there was the
1 reason for your transfer?
2 A. Yes. I said that to them because I saw no reason for me to be
3 transferred from Zvornik to Sokolac. That was a sort of a punishment for
4 me and for my family, a degradation, a full degradation in the sense of
5 the work that I'd been doing until then.
6 Q. Something remained unclear, so let me try to clarify that. What
7 post did Dragan Obrenovic have in that period of time, 1999 to 2000?
8 A. At the time, Obrenovic was commander of the Zvornik Brigade.
9 Q. The people that you've mentioned, the officers, Ostoja Stanisic,
10 Lazar Ristic, Milan Stanojevic, commander of military police company
11 Momir Jasikovac, were they still members of that unit whose commander he
12 was at the time?
13 A. Many of these people that you mentioned are not with the army any
14 more. They have gone on to other jobs. They are not professional
15 servicemen any more. And based on his request, they came to see him at
16 his office.
17 Q. Were you able to see them coming into his office? Where were you
18 sitting at the time?
19 A. At the time, I dealt with operations duties. And it's on the same
20 floor, the last office on that floor. And there's a hallway leading to
21 commander and the chief of staff. When these conversations were
22 conducted, people from military police were always present. And nobody
23 else could enter the office at the time except for those who were invited
24 to go and see the commander. The door normally used to be always open, so
25 I was able to see everyone coming in while I was in my office.
1 Q. When you were transferred to Sokolac, did you find Dragan Jokic
2 there? Was he also transferred there?
3 A. Yes. Dragan Jokic went there six months or a year before I did,
4 and we were transferred to the same organ. I arrived in the same organ
5 where Dragan Jokic was already working.
6 Q. Was Dragan Jokic's family living in Zvornik at the time, like
8 A. Yes. Dragan Jokic's family also lived in Zvornik, just like my
10 Q. Do you remember who Dragan lived with and who his family members
12 A. Jokic had a son and a mother in Zvornik.
13 Q. Do you know whether he had a wife? Was he married? Who took care
14 of the child?
15 A. As far as I know, he was not living with his wife. He didn't have
16 a wife. And I think he was the one who took care both of the child and of
17 his mother.
18 Q. And you say that in spite of this family situation, he, too, was
19 transferred to Sokolac?
20 A. Yes. He was transferred to Sokolac, and he went there.
21 Q. And did you work together with Dragan at Sokolac in that period of
23 A. Yes. We worked together in the same organ, the operative training
24 department of the 5th Corps until he went to the Tribunal.
25 Q. Did you practically have to share living quarters as you were far
1 from your hometown?
2 A. Yes, for a while we were roommates in the hotel at Sokolac.
3 Q. Mr. Maric, when you were alone with Dragan, did you have an
4 opportunity to discuss all the tragic events that had taken place in
5 Zvornik, to comment on them, to wonder what had happened?
6 A. Yes. On several occasions, I asked Jokic whether he knew about
7 those events, especially after the information that came to light during
8 the Krstic trial which we learned through the media. I asked him whether
9 he knew anything about this, whether he had taken part in it and so on. I
10 never got a reply to the effect that he had participated or known about
11 anything that was going on at the time.
12 Q. If this is speculation, you may object. But how did you come to
13 this conclusion, or rather, what was your conclusion about this?
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. Vague. What conclusion and what does
15 "this" mean?
16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Stojanovic, I think the witness answered, "I never
17 got a reply to the effect that he had participated or known about anything
18 that was going on at that time." To me, it's quite clear.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I
20 withdraw this question.
21 Q. Let me conclude with the following question: Mr. Maric, do you
22 know that in the period 2000-2001, an investigation was carried out in
23 Vlasenica about individual criminal acts in the Zvornik Brigade against
24 certain members of the Zvornik Brigade?
25 A. No, I'm not aware of that. I don't know about any investigations
1 in the Zvornik Brigade.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, I would just like briefly to go through the
3 documents referring to your testimony. And I will only ask you for brief
4 comments on these. Could you please assist me in this way.
5 I would like to show you excerpts from the duty officers' logbook,
6 the logbook. That's P133. And it refers to the period from the 12th of
7 July when this witness was the duty operations officer. We have already
8 had several opportunities to see this document.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Excuse me, just for clarification, I believe
10 witnesses and other people have been referring to this as the duty officer
11 notebook, if this is the handwritten jottings that you're referring to,
12 because there's another logbook as well. So if we could just try to
13 clarify that.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please, Mr. Stojanovic.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you. This is the
16 notebook kept by the duty operations officer in the command of the
17 Zvornik Brigade. And this is P533.
18 THE INTERPRETER: P533, interpreter's correction.
19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Maric, I apologise for this brief delay. But let us try to
21 clarify this. Is this the book of notes kept by the duty operations
22 officer on the 12th of July, and were you the duty operations officer on
23 the 12th of July?
24 A. Yes, I was.
25 Q. Tell us, do you recognise your handwriting in this notebook and
1 from which note does your handwriting actually begin?
2 A. My handwriting begins from 09 -- what's this?
3 Q. Can you at least read us this note?
4 A. "Milosevic should go up there or send what he promised, and he
5 should be there by 12.30." And then "584-700." This is a telephone
6 number. The telephone number of Glinica.
7 Q. Above this note, it says "Trbic to the forward command post." Can
8 you assist us in explaining what actually these notes refer to?
9 A. This is not my handwriting. This was noted down by somebody who
10 was in the shift before mine. And it means that Trbic was at the forward
11 command post.
12 Q. Does that mean that the forward command post had already been
14 A. As duty officers, we were not told it would be taken. But
15 apparently, the commander decided it should be taken, and he probably sent
16 Trbic to the forward command post.
17 Q. We have a note here, "Situation normal, Palma 2," on the first
18 page. Mr. Maric, it's in Cyrillic. "Situation normal, Palma 2." Do you
19 see this?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Whose handwriting is this? Is it yours?
22 A. In this period from 9.20, "Petkovic should go to fetch the Muslims
23 in the 8th Infantry Battalion." This is already my handwriting, and this
24 other handwriting belongs to Ljubo Bojanovic. I was probably absent
25 either because I had been given an assignment or I was touring the
1 premises. And this is his handwriting. He wrote this down.
2 Q. Can you explain to us who Palma 2 is. What could this refer to?
3 A. I think our brigade was Palma, but I'm not sure whether it was
4 Palma 2.
5 Q. Let's pass on to page 2, ERN number in B/C/S 02935733. Is this
6 your handwriting, Mr. Maric?
7 A. 733, that page? Yes, yes, it's all in my handwriting.
8 Q. It says, "Petkovic to go and fetch the Muslims in the 8th Infantry
9 Battalion." Is this the information you mentioned during your testimony?
10 A. Yes. The chief of staff ordered that Petkovic should go and fetch
11 the Muslims from the 8th Infantry Battalion, and this message was
12 transmitted to Petkovic.
13 Q. After this, there is the text of a telegram. Can you tell us what
14 this is about, what sort of telegram is this? What is the content of this
16 A. This is the telegram I mentioned during my testimony when I said
17 that the chief had dictated a telegram to me to be sent off to all the
18 units, to all the units except the 6th Infantry Battalion.
19 Should I read it all out?
20 Q. No, you don't have to do that. I just wanted to ask you briefly
21 through this example, where at this time was the chief of staff when you
22 were writing out this text?
23 A. He was standing right next to me and dictating what I wrote down.
24 He then signed the telegram, and it was sent off to the units.
25 Q. Is this an example of what you were talking about this morning,
1 about the method of dispatching regular and interim combat reports? Was
2 this the method used as a rule?
3 A. As a rule, yes. The chief dictated this, and that's how it was
4 sent to all the addressees.
5 Q. You're trying to say that he was present and he was dictating; you
6 were just writing down?
7 A. Precisely so.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection,.
9 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 MR. McCLOSKEY: Leading and multiple part. It's impossible to
11 tell what the witness means by that.
12 JUDGE LIU: After all, Mr. Stojanovic, I believe the witness has
13 already answered that question. There's no need to repeat it once again.
14 You may move on.
15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Q. Mr. Maric, on the following page, B/C/S ERN number 02935735, there
17 is another note that says "Palma 2, at 1330," and then there is a text.
18 Was this text written by you? Is it your handwriting?
19 A. Yes, yes, it is my handwriting.
20 Q. When you look at the content of this note, can you tell us who
21 Palma 2 might be?
22 A. I'm not sure whether it's our communications centre, but it
23 probably arrived through our communications centre. People are asking
24 Vukotic what had happened.
25 Q. Thank you. And as far as I'm concerned, we're finished with this
2 Now, I would like to show you some pages from the same document on
3 days when you were not the duty officer, but your name was mentioned. Let
4 us try to decipher those.
5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, for identification,
6 this is still Prosecution Exhibit P133, the duty operation officers
8 Q. May I ask you first to look at the excerpt from this notebook, ERN
9 number in English 03089341, and in the B/C/S, it's 02935746.
10 Mr. Maric, this is part of the notes noted down by Dragan Jokic
11 who was the duty officer at the time. And on the page, it says "PC, 1st
12 C, Maric, and then there's a list, 30-2nd pb, 35-2nd pb, and then there's
13 donors, 15 engineers, and so on. Can you tell us what this is about?
14 What kind of entry is this?
15 A. Yes, this is an entry showing probably what units were supposed to
16 be at the positions at Snagovo. This is what was supposed to happen, but
17 that's not what happened in reality. Whoever dictated this thought that
18 there should be that number of men there, 30 from the 2nd Infantry
19 Battalion, 35 from the 2nd Infantry Battalion, 15 from the engineers, and
20 so on and so forth, but in actual fact the situation on the ground did not
21 correspond to these numbers.
22 Q. Does that mean that this record is simply not correct about the
23 number of people who went to Snagovo?
24 A. That is correct. This is not correct. This information is not
1 Q. Does that mean that the duty operations officer only wrote down
2 into the notebook something that someone else dictated to him?
3 A. He writes down into the notebook what he receives over the
4 telephone. Over the telephone or if he was told it in person or via the
5 communications centre. Messages, orders, and the like.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like to move to the next page. In the
7 English version, that is 03089354; and in the B/C/S version, it's
8 02935759. Mr. Maric, this is a duty operations officer's note from the
9 16th of July 1995. I want to ask you, do you know who was the duty
10 operations officer on the 16th of July?
11 A. No. I don't know who it was.
12 Q. The last entry on this page states: "Bring spare batteries to
13 Maric at Crni Vrh for the RU and the RUP12." Could you please explain to
14 us what this is, what does this entry mean?
15 A. Since this unit was up there from the 13th, already on the 14th in
16 the afternoon, the battery on the radio device was weakened. And the
17 communications were being established via the 7th Infantry Battalion with
18 the brigade command, or from the self-propelled vehicle. The last
19 conversation that I had with Pandurevic on the 15th in the evening came
20 practically at the end of the life of the battery, so we had remained
21 without communication. So that was the meaning of this entry, to take the
22 spare batteries to Maric at Crni Vrh.
23 Q. Thank you. And if you allow me to look at another excerpt from
24 the same notebook, from the same exhibit, P133. And in the English
25 version, it's the ERN 30889371; and in the B/C/S version --
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get the number of the
2 B/C/S version.
3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] For the record, I just wanted to
4 repeat the ERN number. That is 02935776.
5 Q. This is an entry of the duty operations officer for the 18th of
6 July. Mr. Maric, do you know maybe who was the duty operations officer on
7 the 18th?
8 A. I don't know. I was out in the field. I don't remember.
9 Q. It states here: "Maric and Zoran to have one day off each."
10 Could you please tell us what this entry is about. Who is Zoran and who
11 is being given the day off?
12 A. Zoran and I when we returned to the brigade together that morning,
13 Commander Pandurevic gave us a day off each. And we went home. That's
14 what that means, "Maric and Zoran to have one day off."
15 Q. When you say "Zoran," which Zoran do you mean?
16 A. The operations officer in the same section where I was working,
17 Zoran Jovanovic.
18 Q. Does this entry mean that the commander gave you your days off and
19 not the duty operations officer?
20 A. Yes, precisely. The commander was the one who would give or
21 approve days off. The duty operations officer could not do that.
22 Q. Does that mean that the job of the duty operations officer is just
23 to record what the commander said?
24 A. Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. Thank you very much. I am going to show you one more document
1 that we have already used here before.
2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will ask the usher to show it
3 to you. This is the collection of the Dekici intercepted conversations,
4 and this is Exhibit P121.
5 Q. Mr. Maric, could you please look at page 3 of the B/C/S version.
6 And for ID purposes, this is ERN number 00848952 in B/C/S. And the
7 English version has been provided earlier to the Court and to the
8 Prosecution. We already used it yesterday. So it's the same copy.
9 Mr. Maric, could you please briefly comment on this. There is a
10 conversation between Lovac 1 and Lovac. And it says the following:
11 "Are you in communication with Maric?"
12 Answer: "Yes. Zolka has left. Someone should be sent there to
13 meet the people."
14 And then there is a note for Maric, Miladinovic, and Mitrovic
15 "(engineers should go to Nedjina Kafana with a dredger so they could cut
16 through the road)."
17 Could you briefly explain to us who is Lovac, who is Lovac 1, and
18 who is communicating to whom here, and is your name mentioned?
19 A. Lovac 1 is the chief of staff, and he's addressing Lovac, that is
20 the switchboard, the communications centre whether they were in
21 communication with me, and he said that they were, that Zoran had left,
22 Zoran Jovanovic had gone up there with his men and to send somebody up
23 there to get those people for Maric, Miladinovic, Mitrovic, and the
24 engineers are supposed to go to the dredger to cut through the road.
25 The contents of this telegram are familiar. Maric never arrived.
1 This is the chief of staff sending a telegram to Maric, to me, that these
2 two engineers should come to the Nedjina Kafana with an excavator to cut
3 through the road. Perhaps this reached the unit, but according to what
4 you could see when those two engineers left, as I mentioned, when they
5 boarded that truck as I said before, Obrenovic himself was there, and when
6 I asked Jevtic, "Where are these people going?" He said, "They are going
7 under orders of Obrenovic." So probably this is that telegram that two
8 engineers should be released to go and do something else.
9 Q. Based on a conversation like this, can you tell us perhaps where
10 Lovac 1 was at that time when he was asking Lovac, "Are you in
11 communication with Maric?"
12 "I have." And then repeats: "Zolka has left."
13 Who is Zolka, and where did he go to and where did he leave from?
14 A. Zolka is Zoran Jovanovic, a major in the operations sector who was
15 supposed to take the people up there to help out the unit that I was with.
16 And he was probably calling from the barracks because he received
17 information, and he was asked if he was in communication with me. And he
18 said that he was.
19 Q. Let us just stay here for a second. You're saying he's informing.
20 Are you thinking of Lovac 1? Are you thinking of Obrenovic?
21 A. Yes, I am.
22 Q. In your opinion, he was in the barracks, and he was informing
23 about Zolka's departure. Am I correct?
24 A. Yes, I think that that's how it was.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
2 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. First of all, there was complete
3 speculation on where Obrenovic was. He says "probably," and then again we
4 have the same questioning of the Defence attorney saying, confirming that
5 is a leading question and putting it to the witness. That's terribly
6 leading on what was a speculative, conclusory answer. That's
7 inappropriate and improper because it leaves the record in a shambles.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I agree with you. And I think there's still some
9 room for improvement in this set of questions, Mr. Stojanovic.
10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm going to finish
11 with this question, Your Honour, and I think that I will finish my
12 examination-in-chief also with that.
13 Q. Sir, Mr. Maric, did you in any way participate in the decision why
14 Mitrovic and Miladinovic, the engineers were supposed to go to
15 Nedjina Kafana with an excavator?
16 A. I didn't have any information about them. I didn't know if they
17 were the operators of this machinery. I didn't know where they were
18 supposed to go. I didn't receive this telegram. I simply saw that the
19 people were leaving the positions and that two few people remained.
20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Maric.
21 Your Honour, I have no further questions. Mr. Maric, I will ask
22 you to concentrate a little bit longer and to respond to questions from
23 Mr. Karnavas and from Mr. McCloskey. On behalf of our Defence team, I
24 thank you for your testimony.
25 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.
1 Mr. Karnavas, do you have questions to this witness?
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, Your Honour. But I won't be overtaxing the
3 witness. In other words, there are a few, but we won't have enough time.
4 JUDGE LIU: Could we have a break first. Then we'll come back to
6 MR. KARNAVAS: Absolutely.
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll resume at 12.30.
8 --- Recess taken at 11.59 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Karnavas.
11 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:
13 Q. Good morning, sir. I just have a few questions, and I want
14 to -- about four different topics. First of all -- and I'll go in the
15 order in which they were presented on direct. You indicated to us that
16 you had studied political science, and in more particular, you had
17 specialised in All People's Defence. Is that correct?
18 A. That's correct. I completed the political science faculty, the
19 department for All People's Defence.
20 Q. And just briefly, because this concept has come up, and it's one
21 of the key issues, I think that we're trying to resolve. But could you
22 tell us a little bit about what is All People's Defence? What is this
23 concept about?
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection, that's beyond the scope.
25 MR. KARNAVAS: What scope? What scope?
1 JUDGE LIU: I think, you know, Mr. Karnavas is doing the direct
2 examination at this moment. And we'll allow Mr. Karnavas to continue.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 MR. KARNAVAS:
5 Q. Go ahead, sir.
6 A. The concept of All People's Defence was a doctrinal principle of
7 organising and planning and carrying out combat operations within an all
8 people's defence or defensive war. Under the doctrinal principle on the
9 use of units, the organisation of the sociopolitical system under the
10 circumstances where the armed forces were organised in such a way
11 following the instructions. At the end of this training course, after
12 completing the faculty for All People's Defence, one would receive a title
13 of a professor in the area of All People's Defence.
14 Q. Now, with that title as professor, where would you teach this
15 concept of All People's Defence?
16 A. In our education system, a professor for All People's Defence
17 would teach in all secondary schools. He would teach the subject called
18 All People's Defence.
19 Q. Now, in some countries such as the one I come from, students get
20 to choose courses. Was this an optional course? In other words, could
21 students decide not to take this particular course, the course of All
22 People's Defence?
23 A. No. In our system, this was a mandatory course taught in all
24 secondary schools. It was taught throughout all four years of secondary
25 schooling, whereas in vocational schools it was taught in the last two
2 Q. And was that course offered to boys as well as girls?
3 A. Yes. It was taught to both boys and girls. It was a mandatory
5 Q. Can you tell us why it was important to teach this course for four
6 years to high-school, secondary-school students?
7 A. The concept that existed before the war was the concept aimed at
8 preparing the population for a defensive war, not an offensive war.
9 Therefore, in that framework, the youth was also prepared for that,
10 including the girls who were not expected to serve military service,
11 whereas the boys were to be prepared in order to serve their service.
12 Q. All right. The concept of territorial defence, was that part of
13 the All People's Defence?
14 A. Yes. Territorial defence was part of armed forces. Therefore, in
15 addition to the Yugoslav People's Army as a military force, we also had
16 territorial defence as part of armed forces.
17 Q. And what about civil protection, civilian protection?
18 A. Civilian protection was not part of armed forces. It was a part
19 of civilian structure, and it had different tasks; namely, to protect the
20 civilian population.
21 Q. Was that also encompassed within this principle or this doctrine
22 of All People's Defence?
23 A. Yes. Civilian protection was also one of the courses at the
24 faculty for All People's Defence. So it was taught within that course,
1 Q. And lastly, regarding this topic, you were asked some questions
2 about mobilisation of buses. Was that part of this concept of All
3 People's Defence, the ability of the military or the government, the
4 ministries, to be able to mobilise sectors of the civilian population to
5 assist in times of emergencies?
6 A. That's right. The ministry or the government were able to
7 mobilise resources from other structures which were not within the armed
8 forces but were needed for the armed forces. Therefore, in extraordinary
9 circumstances, in wartime, certain resources could be mobilised and
10 allocated to those who needed them.
11 Q. All right. Let me go on to the next topic. You indicated, and
12 correct me if I'm wrong, that on the night of the 13th going on to the
13 14th, that Mr. Bojanovic, Ljubo Bojanovic, had brought some special
14 police, I believe, from Doboj. Is that correct?
15 A. That's correct. He brought in a unit of special police which
16 was -- which existed within the MUP. They came from Doboj via the request
17 that was sent through the General Staff. They came to our area pursuant
18 to our request to assist us in combat operations. They were brought in by
19 Ljubo Bojanovic.
20 Q. Could you please tell us what his function was within the
21 Zvornik Brigade, Ljubo Bojanovic's?
22 A. At the time, Ljubo Bojanovic was operations officer in an
23 operations organ, just like I was.
24 Q. Now we have a statement from a Prosecution witness, Witness 130,
25 I won't reveal his name, who has indicated that on the 13th,
1 Mr. Bojanovic was also serving as the duty operations officer. To your
2 knowledge, was Ljubo Bojanovic the duty operation officer on the 13th of
3 July, that same day that he came into the field where you were located and
4 brought the special police?
5 A. On the 13th of July, I handed over my duty to Sreten Milosevic,
6 assistant for logistics. And he was supposed to be the duty operations
7 officer. He took over from me. I don't think that Ljubo Bojanovic was
8 the duty operations officer.
9 Q. Okay. Maybe you can clarify this point: When one is designated
10 as the duty operations officer, is he allowed to leave that position and
11 go out in the field, be elsewhere?
12 A. He is allowed, but under certain circumstances when ordered either
13 by the commander or the chief of staff. Then he can leave his duty post,
14 but another person, another officer, is designated as a replacement while
15 he's gone. The replacement officer comes from the list of duty officers
16 and is picked among those who are located in the brigade command.
17 Q. Suffice it to say at all times there is somebody there at the
18 operations office acting as the duty operations officer?
19 A. Yes. At all times, a duty officer is present.
20 Q. Now, I'm going to switch to another topic, and that was with
21 respect to Mr. Obrenovic. I just want to nail down one specific point.
22 You had indicated that at some point, Mr. Obrenovic had come up to
23 you asking for an alibi, or what would appear to be an alibi as you
24 understood it. Correct?
25 A. Yes. When he asked me to come into his office to talk to him,
1 that was taking place in his office. Based on our conversation, I
2 concluded that he wanted an alibi at a certain time, at a certain place.
3 He wanted it to be known where he was and what he did. That was the sense
4 of our conversation. He said that he issued an order to me on the
5 telephone, that he was not present in the barracks, and that in the night
6 between the 13th and 14th, he was with me on the positions and that he was
7 with me when Ljubo brought in the special police unit. Based on that, I
8 concluded that. And I knew from before that he was working on preparing
9 his defence because he had already received a summons from The Hague
10 investigators, and he was preparing for new calls from them.
11 Q. And from the line of questioning and the manner in which he spoke
12 to you and the information that he provided to you, it's my understanding,
13 and correct me if I'm wrong, that he was attempting to influence your
15 A. That's correct. In our conversation, I saw that he was
16 uncomfortable. And he said, "Well, where could I have been? Where else
17 could I have been? I was there. Try and rattle your memory."
18 Q. Then at some point after this incident, you were questioned by the
19 Prosecution, and as I believe you indicated that was one of the focal
20 points of the Prosecution; that is, Obrenovic trying to influence you as
21 far as the recitation of events of where he had been on what given days
22 and in what places?
23 A. Yes. Based on conversations with other colleagues who were in the
24 army then and with whom Obrenovic talked, one could conclude that
25 Obrenovic talked to them about the same topic. He wanted them to say what
1 he had told them in any conversations they had with investigators.
2 Q. And I suspect by now, you do know that the Prosecution came into
3 court using your statement as a basis of trying to demonstrate that
4 Mr. Obrenovic was out trying to influence witnesses?
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, it's a very difficult question for
6 this witness to speculate the strategy of the Prosecution. It's not a
7 proper question.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, if I may, it's not the strategy of the
9 Prosecution, but I'm merely trying to establish that the Prosecution had a
10 great deal of confidence in the gentleman's testimony with respect to that
11 issue, and therefore later on they shouldn't be in a position to argue
12 that his testimony should be less credible on other aspects. Because that
13 was the basis for Mr. Obrenovic not being able to get provisionally
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, for this kind of thing to be said in
17 front of the witness, we all remember those days. We know where the
18 Prosecution stood. And this is all argument. And I have no objection to
19 the questioning on this point. As it appears, the witness is telling
20 Mr. Karnavas exactly what he told us. But the rest of the strategy and
21 these other absurd arguments are not relevant and inappropriate.
22 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
24 MR. KARNAVAS: I just want to make sure that later on, on closing
25 argument, I don't want to hear any statements that this particular witness
1 is less than credible on other issues such as All People's Defence just to
2 give an example.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, this kind of argument at this
4 point, we will be arguing that this witness is less than credible on other
5 events as we will hear from the cross-examination. I just hope that if
6 these kind of arguments are going to be made, they can be made without the
7 witness. Because I do not like having to respond to them in front of the
9 JUDGE LIU: Please move on, Mr. Karnavas.
10 MR. KARNAVAS: I have one more point.
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes.
12 MR. KARNAVAS: It's very brief.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.
14 MR. KARNAVAS:
15 Q. Sir, you were pointed to, I believe, the duty operations notebook
16 if I'm using the correct terminology, and your name was mentioned. And
17 you had indicated specifically that it was incorrect as far as how many
18 men are arrived from which units. Do you recall that line of questioning
19 from Mr. Stojanovic?
20 A. Yes, I remember that. The entries where it says the
21 2nd Battalion, 2-35, and then 35, saw there were figures there about the
22 number of troops and who was supposed to be where.
23 Q. And your testimony was that those figures to the best of your
24 knowledge were incorrect?
25 A. The figures were incorrect. That did not -- they did not
1 correspond to the actual situation, to the troops who were with me and
2 with Jevtic. They did not correspond.
3 Q. Thank you. Which leads us to one of the conundrums. How is it
4 that a duty operation officer would put down something on a note, a
5 notebook, that is not totally accurate? Because later on, for instance,
6 in the Tribunal, they may try to use that notebook to say these events
7 occurred because they're written down?
8 A. The duty operations officer probably received that data from
9 someone because he did not know the figures of troops. He probably
10 received those figures from the chief. And as such, wrote them down.
11 That would be the proper procedure.
12 Q. All right. And can we conclude, then, that by looking at the duty
13 operations notebook, one would have to go beyond just what is written down
14 on paper to discern whether the events described in the notebook are true,
15 accurate, and complete?
16 A. The information itself, the one in the notebook, about the number
17 of troops does not say much. It simply says what unit was with Maric,
18 with me, and they needed the figures for logistics and for food and so on.
19 Whereas for the events, the events are recorded as the information comes
20 in from the field or from the commander. Orders coming in from him would
21 be recorded, and then forwarded further on as well. So all that is
22 recorded here are the figures. I don't know for what other purpose except
23 for logistics they needed these figures. It is possible that figures are
24 increased and do not correspond to the actual situation.
25 Q. To go back to my question concretely, and I'm speaking as a
1 general principle, not with respect to that particular day, it would
2 appear at least from what we've heard from you that one would have to go
3 beyond what's written down on the paper and not merely rely on the
4 notebook itself?
5 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection. Rhetorical and already asked and
7 MR. KARNAVAS: It wasn't quite answered, Your Honour, with all due
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, I think this question is quite
10 obvious that of course what we are doing to verify what is said in those
11 notebooks. So I believe in this sense there is no need to pursue in that
12 direction at all.
13 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. Sometimes even the most
14 obvious we need to nail down on the record. But if it's obvious and if
15 it's on the record and if Mr. President and the Judges are satisfied, in
16 that case, I have no further questions.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
18 Well, cross-examination, Mr. McCloskey.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Cross-examined by Mr. McCloskey:
21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Maric. I will go over some of these documents
22 with you, and I will ask you about some areas that I have some concerns
23 about as I just mentioned so you can respond to those concerns.
24 Now, just on this last point, the duty officer notebook, that's a
25 book that a commander may look into to help him determine what occurred
1 while he was gone. Isn't that correct?
2 A. Yes. Commander could take a look at the notebook. It would also
3 be sort of a reminder for the duty officer in case commander asked him
4 about what was happening at such and such hour.
5 Q. And when the duty officer's doing a draft daily combat report, he
6 may very well refer to these -- to this duty officer notebook to fill in
7 those crucial details. Isn't that right?
8 A. Yes, that's right.
9 Q. And this notebook does not have a complete recitation of the
10 events that occurred during any particular days, does it?
11 A. That's right. There is more a summary as such. Simply the events
12 are recorded chronologically as they are taking place.
13 Q. Okay, let's go to that notebook if we could. I believe it has
14 been marked as P133. The English translation is now P133, I think A bis
15 is what we have marked for the 12th because we didn't have that
16 translation until this witness came. And if we could let that
17 witness -- he might as well see what we believe is the original.
18 And perhaps it would be -- if you could go to what is -- there
19 should be a little red number which I'm sure you recognise is not part of
20 the original. But it's 02935732. And that is page 2 of the July 12th
21 notebook which is the time period that I believe you were duty officer.
22 And I just want to go down to the section that I think you've
23 already mentioned, the military police were sent for an ambush in
24 Dzafin Kamen. But then I note that it says, "Eight buses from the Drina
25 Trans and two of our buses from military police and four of our trucks are
1 going to Bratunac today," did you write that down, what I said about the
3 A. Yes. This entry says here, "Eight buses are going today, two of
4 our buses from military police, and four of our trucks are going to
5 Bratunac today, reported to the ministry in Zvornik." And I probably
6 received this information from the chief of transportation service, and we
7 can see on the left that chief of staff was at the 7th Battalion, and he
8 probably received that information there.
9 Q. Okay. So you would have reported this information to Obrenovic
10 who was at the 7th Battalion?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. And are these buses and trucks the ones that are in
13 response to the Ministry of Defence order to send down for the Srebrenica
15 A. Yes. Most likely, this was done pursuant to that telegram because
16 I see that Ministry of Defence is mentioned here, that they were informed.
17 Q. Okay. If I could go down, as it says that these trucks are going
18 to Bratunac today. And then in the English, it says: "Reported to," but
19 we can't read who it was reported to. Can you read it from the original?
20 A. Reported to the Ministry of Defence in Zvornik. Ministry of
22 Q. So you were just getting back to them on the original request.
23 Okay. Then the next --
24 MR. KARNAVAS: Is that a question or is that an answer from
25 Mr. McCloskey? That's his interpretation. I understand it may be
1 correct, and it probably is correct. But --
2 JUDGE LIU: I think this could be easily turned into a question.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: That was meant as a question.
4 Q. So you were getting back to the Ministry of Defence on their
5 original request?
6 A. Precisely so. It was reported to the Ministry of Defence what
7 vehicles were dispatched to Bratunac at their request.
8 Q. Okay. Now, the next section, there's a little star, and it says:
9 "8th pb." Now, that's the 8th Infantry Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade?
10 A. Yes. Yes. The 8th Infantry Battalion of the Bratunac Brigade.
11 That's right.
12 Q. Which brigade?
13 A. Zvornik Brigade.
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter made a mistake.
15 MR. McCLOSKEY:
16 Q. Okay. So at the time, was the 8th Infantry Battalion of the
17 Zvornik Brigade attached to the Bratunac Brigade as the Bratunac
18 4th Infantry Battalion?
19 A. I'm not aware that it was outside the composition of the
20 Zvornik Brigade. Radika Petrovic, the commander, was part of our brigade.
21 And as far as I know, this was not transferred to the Bratunac Brigade,
22 this unit.
23 Q. Well, let me just ask you, as it goes down at 1315 [sic] hours,
24 "Bokcin Potok, there are blocked between three to four thousand Muslims.
25 One was captured alive. And the Turks have four or five dead."
1 Who did you get that information from?
2 A. This information came through the information centre through the
3 8th Infantry Battalion just as you said.
4 Q. We see that "Radika requested assistance and manpower to stop the
5 Turks." Do you recall speaking directly to Radika, or was this just being
6 passed on as it is sometimes done?
7 A. I don't recall whether I talked to Radika directly or whether the
8 message was passed on through the centre.
9 Q. Okay. And the Radika, Radika that is mentioned here, which Radika
10 would that have been?
11 A. The commander of the 8th Infantry Battalion, Radika Petrovic.
12 Q. And were you able to honour his request and provide him with any
13 men or materials?
14 A. No. As the duty officer, I did not have this possibility. All I
15 could do was pass on this information to the chief, Obrenovic, and then it
16 is noted down that "We are sending the Praga, bring it in from Brezanci."
17 Q. So was a Praga as far as you know sent to help Radika in his area?
18 A. I remember that the commander, I think, issued the order that the
19 Praga should go towards the 8th Battalion, and I think it did.
20 Q. Okay. And would that have been in the area of Kajici?
21 A. Yes, yes, in the area of Kajici, in the area covered by the
22 8th Battalion.
23 Q. It's not too far from Sandici on the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac Road?
24 A. I don't know exactly where Sandici are located, but Konjevic Polje
25 is quite far.
1 Q. Konjevic Polje is quite far from Kajici?
2 A. Yes, it's quite a few kilometres.
3 Q. Just roughly. We may be just getting mixed up on what we think is
4 quite far.
5 A. Kajici is, I think, 7 or 8 kilometres or more from Konjevic Polje.
6 Q. Okay. And that phone number, 881-529, and it says "Kajici," was
7 that Radika's number as far as you remember?
8 A. As far as I can recall, telephone numbers beginning 881 were in
9 Kajici. This is a number, a PTT number, a number used by the normal
10 telephone services.
11 Q. So that could have been a house in Kajici? You don't remember?
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Calls for speculation. It could have been a house.
13 I think it should be rephrased.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just asking him to search his memory.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: He's asking the gentleman to speculate. There's a
16 big difference between searching memory and speculating.
17 JUDGE LIU: I think the witness did not give a very clear answer,
18 not to the question posed by the Prosecution. The question was: "Was
19 that Radika's number, so far as you remember?" It's a yes or no question.
20 MR. KARNAVAS: I agree, Your Honour. I don't have a problem with
21 that. It was the house situation. That threw me off a little bit.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can just try to get to it.
23 Q. Is this number written in the book Radika Petrovic's number?
24 A. Here on the right-hand side in my handwriting, it says, "Give him
25 Radika's phone number." Underneath is a phone number in Kajici. So most
1 probably it's Radika's phone number at his command post in Kajici. But
2 it's a PTT number. Most probably.
3 Q. All right. So you were receiving information about what was going
4 on down in that area, including three to four thousand Muslims. Did you
5 report that information to the chief of staff?
6 A. Yes. I did transmit this information to the chief of staff, and
7 we can see on the following page that he issued specific orders to certain
8 organs and units.
9 Q. All right. Thank you.
10 And now if we could, I'd like to go to a daily combat report.
11 It's dated 12 July. It's P450. I think we have a B/C/S version. I just
12 want to ask you briefly about it. You can scan over it, and you may want
13 to look at the end, too, because there's some initials there, MM and SS.
14 I'm just going to ask you about a couple of things, so if you need to read
15 it after my questions, please let me know. But I don't need you to study
16 the whole thing right now, but if you feel you need to, that's fine. Just
17 looking at the initials, is this something that you drafted as the duty
18 officer that day?
19 A. That's correct. MM, that's probably my initials. As for SS, I
20 can't recall now who typed this out.
21 Q. Okay. And then looking at the front page under point 2, it does
22 confirm there that "We sent one Praga with crew to the area of the
23 8th Battalion in Kajici." And you wrote in that information, I take it,
24 based on what you'd learned as duty officer?
25 A. That's what it says here, yes. It says here, "This information
1 was passed on," and we did send off a Praga crew to the area of the 8th pb
2 in Kajici.
3 Q. I know what it says, but I'm just trying to refresh your
4 recollection because it's your testimony that is also equally as
5 important. So my next question would be: Do you know when that Praga
6 came back to Zvornik?
7 A. No, I don't know because I wasn't at the command any longer. I
8 went out on to the ground the next day, so I don't know when it came back
9 and where it went afterwards.
10 Q. When you left the duty officer position, I think you said about
11 9.00 on the 13th, you hadn't received any information that that Praga had
12 come back. Is that correct?
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. I
15 think there is either a mistake here or a misinterpretation or a wrong
16 translation. We heard that Mr. McCloskey said that he left his duty
17 operations post on the 13th in the evening. It was not in the evening; it
18 was in the morning.
19 JUDGE LIU: From the transcript, we see it's in the morning, 9.00.
20 Thank you.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. McCLOSKEY:
23 Q. Yes. I meant to say in the morning at 9.00. So had you heard any
24 news about this Praga before you left your duty officer job?
25 A. No. I didn't receive any information, nor do I know this.
1 Q. Okay. Just a little bit below that part about the Praga, well,
2 again, we see the eight buses and the two buses from the military police.
3 So those were actually two buses from the Zvornik Brigade military police
4 that were sent to Bratunac. Is that right?
5 A. This information, observation, eight buses, two buses, four
6 trucks, the telegram asked for all available vehicles. And what is noted
7 down here is what was dispatched pursuant to that order.
8 Q. I understand that. But in direct examination, I seem to recall
9 you not being clear whether the buses were -- whether or not the
10 Zvornik Brigade had buses. And it appears from this document that these
11 are Zvornik Brigade military police buses. So that's why I asked you.
12 Are these Zvornik Brigade military police buses?
13 A. The Zvornik Brigade did have a few buses, but they were mostly out
14 of order. We can see from this that at that point we had two buses in
15 good working order, and we did dispatch those two. I think we had four or
16 five buses all together, but what you can see here is that we dispatched
17 two. The police did not have any buses, so it can only be our military
18 post, VP, in other words, can only refer to our military post. It cannot
19 refer to the military police.
20 Q. Thank you for clearing that up.
21 Okay, the next line says: "One military police detachment was
22 sent to Konjevic Polje pursuant to your order." Now, you wrote this. Can
23 you tell us more about it.
24 A. With respect to this testimony and what I said in Banja Luka to
25 the investigators, I do not remember this telegram. I don't recall it. I
1 don't recall that I noted this down while I was on duty. There's no
2 reason for me not to believe that it's true.
3 Q. Having -- I don't think this was shown to you in your interview.
4 Perhaps it was. But having read it now, does that refresh your
5 recollection as to what this is about?
6 A. I don't remember that I received an order about instructions from
7 the military police at anybody's request, and I don't remember any
8 activities taking place pursuant to this. However, when I look at it now,
9 if such an order had arrived, I would most probably have noted it down
10 according to someone's order to Konjevic Polje. I can't remember now.
11 Q. Have you heard after the fact about anybody being killed in
12 Konjevic Polje around the 12th and 13th?
13 A. Specifically about the murders, I heard about that. There was
14 talk about it. But I learned about it from the media and from the Krstic
16 Q. So you didn't hear about any murders in -- after the fall of
17 Srebrenica, only from the media and at the Krstic trial?
18 A. I received official, reliable information when I followed the
19 Krstic trial. That's when I learned that the events had taken the course
20 they did and that there were executions. Before that, people said there
21 had been fighting on the road to Konjevic Polje and up there. But it was
22 from the trial that I learned the real truth and what events actually took
24 Q. All right. Just one last point on this: It says "pursuant to
25 your order." Now, this is a document going out under the signature or the
1 name -- not the signature but the name at this point of Vinko Pandurevic.
2 What is the reference to "your order"? Is that an order from the -- Can
3 you tell us who the "your" would be in this reference? Who would have
4 given the order according to this document?
5 A. This order was probably issued by the command of the Drina Corps
6 because it is to them that this telegram is addressed. So this was
7 carried out pursuant to their order. The signatory is Vinko Pandurevic
8 who is officially the commander regardless of the fact that he's not in
9 the field, someone is acting for him. It's the chief of staff. So he was
10 the one who signed this document.
11 Q. Okay, thank you.
12 Now, are there regular wire connections between the comms room of
13 the standard headquarters and the battalions of the Zvornik Brigade?
14 A. All the battalions, that is, the Zvornik Brigade, had wire
15 connections with all subordinate units.
16 Q. And we've heard about an operations centre which was on a hill
17 above Zvornik. Was there a wire connection between the Zvornik
18 headquarters at Standard and this operations centre up on the hill?
19 A. Yes. The operations centre was linked with the operations duty
20 officer who could receive all information and pass it on.
21 Q. By wire, like the battalions?
22 A. The operations centre was in the building of the Zvornik Brigade,
23 one floor up from the duty room. And it had all the wire connections with
24 all the subordinates. On a nearby hill across the asphalt road, there was
25 a radio centre which had radio links. This could not be done from the
1 first building, so we had links with the comms room which had wire links.
2 The radio centre did not have wire connections, but only radio
4 Q. I'm talking about the radio place on the hill above Zvornik. Did
5 that have a wire connection to the Zvornik Brigade like all the battalions
7 A. I think it did. Because it wouldn't have been a problem to
8 establish it.
9 Q. And in speaking over the wire, there's no way to intercept that
10 over the airwaves, is there? You can only intercept a wire by tapping
11 into it?
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Excuse me, Your Honour, for my belated objection,
13 but no foundation has been laid as to whether this gentleman would know
14 that information. So I think some predicate questions are required.
15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. McCloskey, It's a technical question. I'm afraid
16 this witness is capable to answer this question or not.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY:
18 Q. Witness, was that a difficult question?
19 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, it doesn't go the complexity of the
20 question. It goes to the knowledge of the individual. He can lay some
21 questions such as whether he has any technical knowledge with respect to
22 wire, radio communications and so on and so forth. Perhaps he may be able
23 to answer that question. He may have some other information that we don't
24 know. If he wants to ask a general question, that's fine. But the way
25 it's phrased, I'm afraid it's going beyond --
1 JUDGE LIU: I don't think so. I think these technical questions,
2 some people are able to answer it, some not. We just need the answer from
3 this witness whether he's capable to answer this question or not.
4 MR. KARNAVAS: That would be...
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
6 Witness, you may answer that question if you could.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, tapping into the
8 wire connections, this is a closed system. And it didn't happen. It did
9 happen that the wires would be cut off in the fighting, and that for
10 protracted periods of time there would be no connection, and then the
11 signalsman had to go out and search for the place where the line had been
12 cut off. But as far as I know, there was no wiretapping.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY:
14 Q. Okay. So if Zvornik headquarters was going to communicate with
15 the radio centre on the hill, their communications would be private if
16 done over the wire communication? They would not be able to be
17 intercepted by anybody?
18 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, it calls --
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: This is just pure harassment.
20 MR. KARNAVAS: I'm Your Honour, I'm not trying -- I'm trying to
21 assist the gentleman. Because this gentleman here, the witness, is not a
22 technician. No foundation has been laid, you know. If he wants to ask
23 the right questions, fine, and establish him as an expert or perhaps have
24 some specific knowledge, I have no problem.
25 JUDGE LIU: Well --
1 MR. KARNAVAS: And Your Honour, if I may, they brought in a
2 gazillion number of these wire experts.
3 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I'm going to object at this point.
4 He's just making a circus of Mr. Stojanovic's case like he did his own,
5 and it's just ridiculous. And I object.
6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, first of all, this witness
7 testified he studied engineering. Secondly, this question is just a
8 logical follow up from the answers given by this witness previously. So
9 we see no problem at all for the Prosecution to put this question to this
11 MR. KARNAVAS: I have some major objections with that,
12 Your Honour. But very well. And I would appreciate it if Mr. McCloskey
13 would exercise some self-control. Some of his comments are unprofessional
14 and degrading.
15 JUDGE LIU: I hope both of you --
16 MR. KARNAVAS: I have been, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE LIU: -- could do so.
18 MR. KARNAVAS: I have been.
19 JUDGE LIU: Don't stand up so quickly.
20 Yes. Maybe you could repeat your question, Mr. McCloskey, to this
22 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. So as a duty officer, you're going to be concerned about whether
24 or not your communications could be intercepted, I would take it.
25 A. That's right. On my telephone, it said, "Caution, the enemy is
1 listening in." So we had to take account of the security of our
3 Q. So if you're speaking to the radio centre on the hill above
4 Zvornik on the wire, the enemy can't listen in to that. Is that right?
5 A. Directly with the duty operations officer through the wire
6 connection. But our comms room in the building, and the radio centre, had
7 both wire communications and radio communications. And then the
8 conversations could be listened into.
9 Q. Conversations over the radio could be listened into if
10 nonencrypted, I take it. Correct?
11 A. Yes, I suppose so. Yes.
12 Q. And hardwire connections cannot be. Correct?
13 A. Unless they are wiretapped, no.
14 Q. So if you as duty officer or as commander wanted to speak to the
15 radio centre on the hill about important material, you would go on the
16 hardwire, wouldn't you?
17 A. The communication went through our comms room would establish
18 communication with the radio centre. What means they used, most often it
19 was the way you've described. But we cannot exclude the possibility that
20 they communicated by radio. The centre could communicate with the radio
21 centre both by radio and by wire.
22 Q. Well, the radio centre would want to communicate the way the
23 commander told them to, wouldn't they? They're not on their own going to
24 spread open information over the airwaves in a combat situation. They
25 would know better than that at the radio centre, wouldn't they?
1 A. That is correct. They would stick to that.
2 Q. A speaker speaking over -- speaking from the duty office or
3 speaking from the comms room at the brigade could tell whether they were
4 speaking over a hardwire or over a radio. Correct? I think you're the
5 one that talked about this earlier.
6 A. You could tell. You could usually tell by the actual
8 Q. Okay. Well, let's go to Exhibit P121. These are what you've
9 looked at before they are what has been referred to as tactical intercepts
10 that the Muslims, the local Muslims were -- some information they were
11 able to get from listening to the airwaves. And I want to direct you to
12 what is under their notes, under the 13th of July. It's page 3 in the
13 English translation. And it should be -- referring to the B/C/S version,
14 if you could just look at it where it begins on the 13th and just the
15 first several lines, there's just talk about some basic information.
16 Do you see where it starts "13 July" and then it starts off at
17 "164.050, there was one dead"? Do you see that?
18 A. Yes, I can see that "participant 188 asked Omega" and so on...
19 Q. Okay. Those first few lines I'm not really asking you about, but
20 if you could just keep following, it talks about, "They allowed only
21 military MUP and military police to pass over Crni Vrh because the escort
22 was required for the others." You had talked about there being a
23 roadblock on that road near Crni Vrh on the 13th in the evening when you
24 went there. Is that right?
25 A. Yes. They sent reinforcements towards Josanica. He that is that
1 road over Crni Vrh, yes.
2 Q. Then the intercept operators talk about: "On RU 12, frequency 238
3 was active because of the Lovcen net, the users of the same RMR are," and
4 then it describes various users, "Igman, Igman 1 personally, Lovac 1,
5 Pekos," and it goes on. I believe you testified on direct that Lovac 1
6 was Dragan Obrenovic, the chief of staff at the time. Is that correct?
7 A. That's correct. Lovac 1 was Dragan Obrenovic.
8 Q. According to these intercepts, Lovac 1 was active on the radio
9 with these other units in the area. Correct?
10 A. Yes, these are all participants in the radio net.
11 Q. So where would he have been if he's active on the radio? What are
12 the options? If he can be picked up by these Muslims?
13 MR. KARNAVAS: Again, I'm going to ask -- this is beyond the scope
14 of this gentleman's knowledge. I just want to register my objection.
15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Your objection is registered.
16 MR. McCLOSKEY:
17 Q. This clearly would be on a radio, correct? Not a hard line.
18 A. That is correct. These are the participants in the radio net, and
19 these are the intercepted radio signals.
20 Q. At this time in the evening on the 13th, you know that there's an
21 emergency situation in your area. You're trying to gather troops
22 together. Troops are being deployed. It would be a natural place for
23 Obrenovic to be at the time, wouldn't it?
24 A. There were only a few men there. Maybe there were about 50 to 55
25 of us. We were to deploy. I didn't see him up there the entire time
1 until the next day in the morning, just like I said in the statement.
2 Q. I understand that. But listen to my question. It would have been
3 a natural place for the commander to be at the time, wouldn't it?
4 A. The commander probably in his view had other places where he
5 thought he should have been, rather than the one where we were. Perhaps
6 he was in that sector. But he was not at the positions where this
7 particular unit was.
8 Q. So perhaps he was in the Snagovo area, but he wasn't just
9 in -- where you could see him. Is that right?
10 A. It's possible that he was at Kula, Maricici, Snagovo. These are
11 all the places he could have maintained radio communications and could
12 have been a participant in the radio net.
13 Q. If we look down the page a little more, we see: "Amazon 1 to
14 Lovac: Tell Vuk to call. The chief is on his way towards you and Vuk
15 went past Amazon towards the base." So if the chief is Obrenovic, we can
16 tell minimally from this that he's on the way towards somewhere. Is that
18 A. That is correct. You could see from this message that he was
19 moving, that he was somewhere on the road.
20 Q. And it goes at 2050 hours: "Lovac 1 reported to Lovac that a
21 column was moving below Zlatni Kamen." You've testified earlier that
22 Lovac is this radio centre on the hill. Right?
23 A. Yes, that is a station.
24 Q. So if this is correct, Obrenovic can't be on the radio from the
25 radio centre on the top of the hill. He's in the field somewhere
1 reporting to the top of the hill?
2 A. According to this information at 2050 hours, Lovac, Obrenovic,
3 informed the station that the column was moving below Zlatni Kamen. I
4 don't know if he received the information from Vukotic or if he saw that
5 for himself. That, I don't know.
6 Q. Do you know who Celik was, whose code name was Celik?
7 A. No, I cannot remember.
8 Q. Now, we know, and you have testified about the 14th of July. Did
9 you have a radio man with you when you were in the field on the 13th and
10 14th July?
11 A. Yes. When I came up there to the 4th unit, it had its own
12 communications, and the communication officer who was together with
14 Q. Now, you told us yesterday that Jevtic, you received information
15 that Jevtic really wasn't able to handle the responsibility of command at
16 this time, at this crucial point on the 13th of July. Is that correct?
17 A. When he sent me up there, Obrenovic told me that -- he informed me
18 about the composition, said that Jevtic was the commander. But in view of
19 the composition, the way it was, Jevtic will probably not be able to carry
20 this out in a good way, that the soldiers would probably not listen to
21 him. So that is probably why he was sent to that unit.
22 Q. Okay. And Jevtic was a guy that, like many others, got drafted at
23 the beginning of the war, and he by profession was a civil engineer, not a
24 military man. Right?
25 A. Yes, exactly. He was a reserve officer. He had a rank. He had
1 spent quite some time in the war. But just as you said, his duty were
2 mostly engineering ones.
3 Q. He was a lieutenant at the time, July 1995?
4 A. Yes, I think that he was a lieutenant.
5 Q. You were a major? Or were you a captain?
6 A. I think that at the time I was still a captain.
7 Q. Okay. And do you know that Jevtic had just been appointed to be
8 the commander of the engineering company, I believe, in April or May of
9 that year?
10 A. I don't know exactly when he was appointed to that duty. But I
11 know that at the time he was at the post of commander of the engineering
13 Q. Okay. So when Dragan Obrenovic sent you to the area, were you
14 sent to take command of those units?
15 A. No. As an operations officer, I went out to the field, into the
16 field many times. I also held the post of a company commander. I was the
17 head of a tactical company. And I would get the official order that I was
18 the commander that this unit was being sent to such and such a place. In
19 this case, there was no such official order. I was just asked by
20 Obrenovic to go and help to organise that unit, in order to take up
21 positions of some sort up there and also to meet the men who would be
22 arriving that night and the next day. This is how I understood it, and
23 this is exactly how I implemented it.
24 Q. Were you designated by Obrenovic to take command of Jevtic's unit?
25 A. No. He did not designate me as the company commander.
1 Q. What was your job?
2 A. My job was to coordinate the unit up there which was made up from
3 different units, and to make sure that the task that Jevtic was given is
4 implemented, to set up some kind of defence, and to meet the men who were
5 arriving and to link them all up. As you yourself said, Jevtic had
6 military experience in combat operations. And I had also been through a
7 lot. So I used my knowledge to implement the task and to preserve the
8 lives of the men.
9 Q. That would have been in direct contradiction to the principle of
10 unity of command, wouldn't it?
11 A. No. Sometimes it would happen that there would be a command, but
12 then sometimes somebody would send from the superior command to help this
13 commander in the implementation of a task so that that person would be
14 working according to the instructions of the person who had arrived; in
15 this case, specifically, they would work or he would work in accordance
16 with my instructions.
17 Q. The commander of that unit that night would have been responsible
18 for the care and the custody of any prisoners taken, wouldn't he,
19 including their murders if they were murdered by people?
20 A. That is correct. No one was captured that night. There were
21 people captured in the morning. These prisoners were treated
22 professionally and correctly. There were no problems.
23 Q. You're aware Dragan Obrenovic stated that he put you in command
24 that night?
25 A. Yes. When I was in Banja Luka with the investigators of The Hague
1 Tribunal, I read his statement. The investigator asked me if I agreed
2 with that statement, and I told him, just as I am telling you now, that I
3 did not agree, that this was not the way it was. He did not designate me
4 as the commander of that unit, and that I was not the commander of the
5 unit. They asked me whether I was the highest-ranking officer there when
6 I arrived, and I was. But the next day, I was not. The next day, there
7 were also majors there. But they were also not in the function of the
8 commanders of that unit. Each unit had its own commander.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I have maybe I hope not more than 10
10 or 15 more minutes. But I see it's break time.
11 JUDGE LIU: Well, let me consult with our Court Deputy.
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, any redirect, Mr. Stojanovic?
14 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I noted down
15 two questions, but in view of the requirement and the need of this witness
16 to travel tomorrow because of his work obligations, I don't think that
17 this would be so critical. So I would grant the time to Mr. McCloskey. I
18 think that we will finish what we need to do in under a minute because we
19 just need to tender one exhibit, and that is the map.
20 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas?
21 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Your Honour. So far, I might have one
22 question, maybe two. But I don't know. I don't know what the next 15
23 minutes will bear. So... I can't read into Mr. McCloskey's mind, nor has
24 he shared with me his outline. But so far, he's okay. He's doing okay.
25 JUDGE LIU: Okay. We'll continue to sit for another 15 minutes
1 and try to finish this witness today. And I apologise for the
2 interpreters and the court reporters about this delay. I wonder whether
3 we could be allowed to continue by the interpreters and the court
5 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour, we will continue for 15
7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much indeed. I appreciate your
9 Mr. McCloskey, try to make your cross-examination as concise as
10 possible so that we could make the best use of the time available to us.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
12 Q. Sir, going back to the 14th of July, were you able to hear radio
13 traffic over the radio at that time?
14 A. Yes. I did have communications up and running at the time. I
15 could talk, and I could listen.
16 Q. Well, according to the Muslims, they heard this exchange, and
17 according to Dragan Obrenovic, he heard over his radio the same exchange
18 on the 14th of July. And it's something you discussed already. "For
19 Maric, Miladinovic, Mitrovic, engineers, to come at Nedjo's inn with the
20 excavator in order to widen a road. They went to Sava 66."
21 Did you hear that over the radio like Obrenovic said he did, and
22 the Muslims obviously did?
23 A. No. I read this information. I read that later and when I was
24 questioned by The Hague investigators. I did not get that message myself,
25 and I don't know if Jevtic received that message because Jevtic also had a
1 communications person who was with him. The message did not reach me.
2 Q. Well, what is -- has been established was that, and I think you've
3 said yourself, Dragan Obrenovic came to the scene there in this area, and
4 in fact Miladinovic and Mitrovic were ordered and did leave, as you
5 yourself saw. So my question is: Were you also ordered to go to Nedjo's
6 inn at the time like it says in this intercept?
7 A. No. Nobody ordered me to go to Nedjina Kafana, to that inn the
8 day after -- actually, the following day, two days had gone by.
9 Q. All right. And do you recall telling the investigators when you
10 interviewed in Banja Luka that you had heard Obrenovic on the radio during
11 the day on the 14th of July?
12 A. Yes. He was in command when the operations began. He was with us
13 until we began to spread out. Then I went to the right flank. I didn't
14 physically see him. But later when the combat operations started, when we
15 clashed with the enemy, I heard him over the radio, over the radio
16 connection. And then when I actually came to the Snagovo Road, he was
17 already there.
18 Q. What time was this when you saw him at the Snagovo Road on the
19 14th roughly?
20 A. The pullout lasted until about 2200 or 2300 hours. He was up
21 there. We waited until all of the soldiers pulled out so that we could
22 see what the situation was in terms of the numbers.
23 Q. Okay. Let me see if this refreshes your recollection. Well, of
24 course you've already testified the morning of the 14th you saw him in the
25 Snagovo area. In fact, he interrogated some of those prisoners. Correct?
1 A. I know that he questioned them. He interrogated them. After that
2 was finished, he waited for Zoran to come, and then he ordered what he
3 ordered. He interrogated them, and then he made a fast decision, and that
4 is what he decided.
5 Q. Okay. And in talking about that, you say: "He stayed there at
6 the intersection of the road where, as I had to prepare the line for
7 combat, I went towards the location of Jasekovici. And after this
8 deployment of troops and getting ready for combat and everything else, the
9 next time that I saw him on that day was sometime just before dark at 8.00
10 in the evening about 2000 hours, moves, and I heard him issuing orders and
11 commanding between 1600 and 1800 hours over the radio."
12 So you say you see him in the morning of the 14th, and then you
13 say you actually see him just before dark at about 8.00, but that you hear
14 him over the radio from 4 -- well, 1600 to 1800 hours. Is that correct
15 what you told the folks in Banja Luka?
16 A. I told them as well roughly, as far as the timing is concerned. I
17 cannot exactly recall what time it was. It was approximately in the
18 afternoon before it got dark. But it's very hard for a person to remember
19 after such a long time, whether this was at 4.00 p.m. or at 6.00 p.m. I
20 know that immediately prior to the clash with the Muslim forces, I could
21 hear him over the radio. He commanded throughout the entire operation
22 during the pullout, and then when the truce went into force, so he was
23 constantly on the radio. Once I got to the road, physically reached the
24 road, I saw him there. He was in a vehicle. By that time, it was already
25 dark. When the pullout was completed, it was already dark. So it was
1 probably quite late. It was the month of July.
2 Q. Okay. And you also told the people in Banja Luka that he had his
3 jeep with him, and a driver, but you said it was pretty risky to drive
4 anywhere. Was that correct, it was pretty risky to be driving around?
5 A. Yes. There was a jeep there. And his driver, I remember that I
6 was wet. I changed my clothes, and I put all of my clothing in my
7 backpack. I put it in the jeep, and then that jeep disappeared. Later,
8 as I heard from the driver, I heard that the Muslims transferred it to
10 Q. Okay. And then the investigator asked you: "And on the 14th when
11 you saw him at his jeep, how long did you remain with him for?" And you
12 say: "Basically, we were trying to regroup the troops after the clashes
13 with the enemy. This operation of regrouping lasted until 1.00 at night.
14 And he was there." Is that correct?
15 A. Approximately. I'm not sure whether it was about 2300 hours or
16 0100 hours. I don't know. I cannot tell you exactly until what time this
17 was. The pullout lasted until about 2300 hours. We could see what the
18 situation was, what the head count was. But I don't think that the whole
19 thing went on longer than 1.00 a.m. He was with this jeep. And later,
20 then I didn't see him. I only saw him then the next day -- next morning.
21 Q. The question is: "And this takes us to 1.00 a.m. On the 15th."
22 And you say: "Yes. And at that time, it had started to rain, and
23 the troops regrouped and waiting for the daybreak."
24 And the question was: "Was Obrenovic with you from 1.00 a.m.
25 hours on?"
1 And you say: "I saw his vehicle, I know that his vehicle was
2 there, and I know that he was there. And it's a rather big stretch of the
3 area where the troops were deployed. It was maybe 4 to 5 kilometres. So
4 he might have been doing some rounds or going to inspect the troops or
5 something, but I remember having seen him at the crack of dawn at that
6 morning. Well, given the fact that you could virtually hear the Muslim
7 forces going by, I don't suppose he could have gone anywhere. We had to
8 remain there because -- which I think is corroborated by the fact that I
9 saw him at daybreak. We were all there together."
10 So you say, "We were all there together" and that you saw his
11 vehicle there. Does this -- do you have any corrections or comments on
12 what you told the Banja Luka folks?
13 A. No. That's mostly what it is. I think that one just needs to
14 read that carefully. He was there with a vehicle. He was moving around.
15 I said all of us were there. And that means that he might have been
16 there, too. I cannot claim with certainty whether he was in the vehicle
17 or not. But let me tell you that it was crazy to attempt to leave that
18 place and go anywhere else.
19 Q. Okay. And in your direct examination, you were asked about when
20 you were alone with Dragan Jokic talking to him about these events. And
21 you said: "Yes, on several occasions, I asked Jokic whether he knew about
22 those events, especially after the information that came to light during
23 the Krstic trial which we learned through the media. I asked him whether
24 he knew anything about this, whether he had taken part in it and so on. I
25 never got a reply to the effect that he had participated or known about
1 anything that was going on at the time."
2 Okay, now I want to read to you what you told the investigators in
3 Banja Luka on this same topic. Have you had a chance to review your
4 interview from Banja Luka?
5 A. Yes, I did.
6 Q. Mr. Manning says: "Explain to me what you mean by `cover things
7 up.' What intention anyone made to cover things up that you know of."
8 And you say: "Later on I found that they were trying to cover up
9 the executions, and then they were trying to cover up the graves and the
10 graves were relocated, secondary graves. And there was a very narrow
11 circle of people who knew about these activities."
12 And Mr. Manning asked you again: "Do you know who that narrow
13 circle was?"
14 And you say this: "Commander, chief of staff, security,
15 intelligence, police. I think also the engineering. I worked with Jokic
16 in the same office, and that's been going on for two years. And whenever
17 I ask him what happened, I never received any answers."
18 Very similar to what you testified in Court, but in Banja Luka you
19 concluded that that engineering was part of the inner circle involved in
20 this, didn't you?
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps we could
23 object to lack of clarity. You know that the engineering corps, the
24 5th Battalion and the engineering unit of the Zvornik Brigade have not
25 been defined properly.
1 JUDGE LIU: I believe that the witness could answer that question,
2 if he needs some explanation on that.
3 Witness, please answer that question if you could.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I've said in the statement, I can
5 repeat that later, which means later when I learned from the media about
6 what transpired in Krstic trial, I learned of things that I had no idea
7 had happened. So when I mentioned the engineering unit, what I meant to
8 say was that that entire effort could not have been completed without the
9 use of the engineering units which were involved in various tasks,
10 including sanitisation of the terrain and so on. And as for the narrow
11 circle of people, many senior officers from the command could confirm to
12 you that they had no ideas that something like this could have happened in
13 the Zvornik Brigade.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY:
15 Q. So you stand by what you said to the investigators in Banja Luka?
16 A. Yes, that's what I stated, and that's how it is.
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I don't have any more
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
20 Any redirect?
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one question, Your Honours,
22 stemming from the previous questions.
23 Re-examined by Mr. Stojanovic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Maric, the forward command post, did it have
25 wire connections with the battalion?
1 A. No. I believe that forward command post did not have hard wire
2 connections. To tell you the truth, I never was present there. I mean,
3 I wasn't on duty there, but I think that they did not have hardwire
5 Q. Forward command posts, did they have radio communication with the
7 A. Yes, they had radio connection.
8 Q. And from the forward command post, was it possible to command the
9 battalions in extraordinary circumstances?
10 A. Yes. And that was ordered by the commander in certain
11 circumstances when that order extended to the forward command post as
13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have
14 no further questions.
15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Karnavas.
16 MR. KARNAVAS: Just one question.
17 Further cross-examination by Mr. Karnavas:
18 Q. Sir, I want to go back to the issue of the Praga, and you were
19 shown a daily report, and also you had the logbook. And in the log -- the
20 daily report you indicate, and I quote, "We sent one Praga." And then it
21 goes on. My question is, do you know for a fact whether the Praga was
22 sent, or was that a conclusion that you made based on the information that
23 you had from the logbook?
24 A. This information came from the logbook. I personally didn't see
25 the Praga. I don't know what it was sent, for what purpose. All I know
1 is what is recorded in the logbook.
2 Q. Well, do you know if it was actually sent? That's the whole
3 question? I know it's in the logbook, and I know it's in the daily
4 report. But the question is: Do you know for a fact whether it was sent
5 because a series of questions were asked about when it came back. So do
6 you know for a fact if it was sent? Yes or no.
7 A. I can't claim with certainty, but based on what I recorded, it is
8 most probable that it had been sent because I probably wouldn't have
9 recorded something that wasn't true.
10 Q. If you take that analogy, then what was recorded by somebody else
11 in a logbook about how many men were sent to you, then that also would
12 have to be correct, would it not? But you told us that was incorrect.
13 MR. McCLOSKEY: Objection.
14 JUDGE LIU: I know that. I don't think there's a good logic
16 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well, Your Honour. I don't mean to impeach
17 the gentleman. But very well.
18 I have no further questions.
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
20 Are there any documents to tender? Yes, Mr. Stojanovic.
21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. We hereby
22 tender D132/3, which is a topographic map used by the witness during
23 examination-in-chief. The rest of the documents are already in evidence.
24 Thank you.
25 JUDGE LIU: Any objections, Mr. McCloskey?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. On your part, do you have any documents to
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Just the English translation of the 12 July
5 notebook bring, P133/a bis. The B/C/S has been in the record. But now we
6 have the English to correspond to it.
7 JUDGE LIU: I think during that time, the Bench asked for the
8 translations already, so there should be no problem if the B/C/S is
9 admitted into evidence. So it is admitted into evidence as well as D132/3
10 the map, is admitted into evidence.
11 Thank you, Witness, for coming to The Hague to give your evidence.
12 And when this Court is adjourned, the usher will show you out of the room.
13 We all wish you a pleasant journey back home.
14 At this point, I have to say that we are very much grateful to the
15 cooperation of the interpreters and the court reporter. We are about 26
16 minutes past the time, and I'm not going to talk about the examinations at
17 this time. But maybe we could find another way to make up the time we
18 used for them, for instance, by breaking earlier sometime. But anyway, we
19 are very grateful, and I appreciate their cooperation.
20 The hearing for today is adjourned.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.11 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day of July,
24 2004, at 9.00 a.m.