Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11668

1 Thursday, 8 July 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-02-60-T, the Prosecutor versus Vidoje Blagojevic and Dragan Jokic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

9 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Before we hear the witness, I

10 think there are a few words that I would like to say to the parties. We

11 have gone through two witnesses this week and we are not that satisfied

12 with the proceedings, because we found that the scope is too broad and

13 some questions, both in direct examination and cross-examination, are not

14 so closely related to the actual conduct of the accused, Mr. Jokic. So I

15 hope that in future proceedings, both parties should be more concentrated

16 on the subject matter of this case. We have heard a lot about the

17 atrocities that happened during that period, the fighting situations, but

18 the main purpose of this hearing is to see whether Mr. Jokic is innocent

19 or not. I hope both parties could bear that in mind, and we have to

20 finish the hearings of this case before the summer recess.

21 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, any protective measures for the next witness?

22 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. No

23 protective measures have been asked.

24 JUDGE LIU: Can we have the witness, please.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 11669

1 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

3 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

4 accordance with the paper Madam Usher is showing to you.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 WITNESS: LJUBO BOJANOVIC

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

10 Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, the witness is yours.

11 Examined by Mr. Stojanovic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. Will you please tell us your full name.

15 A. My name is Ljubo Bojanovic.

16 Q. For the record, please spell your name.

17 A. L-j-u-b-o B-o-j-a-n-o-v-i-c.

18 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bojanovic, when were you born and where?

19 A. On the 9th of August, 1947, in Sarajevo, Centre municipality.

20 Q. Where did you spend your childhood, Mr. Bojanovic?

21 A. From the age of 5, I have lived in Zvornik, which means that after

22 the first five years in Sarajevo our family moved to Zvornik.

23 Q. What was the reason for their move from Sarajevo to Zvornik?

24 A. The climate did not suit my late father, and my family moved to

25 Zvornik. And both my parents come originally from a place near Zvornik.

Page 11670

1 Q. Did you finish your primary and secondary school there?

2 A. Yes, in Zvornik. I graduated from the primary school and the

3 secondary school before enrolling in the military academy in 1966, which I

4 completed in 1970. It was the academy of the ground forces, artillery

5 section.

6 Q. Upon completion of your military education, were you trained and

7 qualified and took up an active military job?

8 A. Yes, after graduating from the academy, I received what we call a

9 transfer in the army to a place called Krusevac in Serbia. I spent four

10 years there before spending another two years in Aleksinac.

11 Q. Where is the town of Aleksinac located?

12 A. It is along the Belgrade/Nis highway, about 30 kilometres from

13 Nis.

14 Q. How long did you serve in the army professionally?

15 A. Until the 31st of December, 1975.

16 Q. Did you leave the army then?

17 A. Yes, on my own initiative because I did not like the military

18 lifestyle. It did not suit my ambitions and I didn't see any prospects or

19 promising future for myself in the army, so I returned to ...

20 Q. When did you come back to Zvornik?

21 A. In the beginning of 1976.

22 Q. Did you find a job in Zvornik?

23 A. Yes. Since my former teacher was the director of the military

24 training centre, his name was Vojin Pasic [phoen], he involved me in the

25 process of teaching All People's Defence.

Page 11671

1 Q. What kind of subject is that? What did you teach the children?

2 A. That subject had an educational and upbringing aspect. I

3 familiarised children with the basic characteristics of the most common

4 weapons which were not the most modern ones. Many lessons had to do with

5 measures of civilian defence so that children should know what to do in

6 case of earthquake, floods, fires, et cetera.

7 Q. How long did you remain a teacher?

8 A. I worked in this technical training centre for over 16 years, and

9 that's where the war found me.

10 Q. Can you remember what rank you held at the outbreak of the war in

11 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

12 A. I held the rank of captain first class, and I was assigned to the

13 Territorial Defence of the Zvornik municipality. It was the broader area

14 of Tuzla Territorial Defence.

15 Q. Can you tell us when the Zvornik Brigade was established.

16 A. At the outset, there was a headquarters of Territorial Defence,

17 and people joined in. It was not a real army or a formally established

18 brigade at the beginning. The brigade was set up in the middle of 1992.

19 Q. When the Zvornik Brigade was formed, did you join in?

20 A. I was mobilised into those forces that existed then.

21 Q. Could you tell us, Mr. Bojanovic, what duties did you perform in

22 the Zvornik Brigade in those first days.

23 A. During those first days, I was at Alhos, which was in fact a

24 factory whose premises we used as headquarters for the Territorial

25 Defence. Things were not completely organised then, and my duties were

Page 11672

1 not strictly and clearly defined.

2 Q. How did things develop in terms of your wartime assignment and the

3 duties you performed?

4 A. After the fall of Kula town, which is a hill above -- overlooking

5 Zvornik, I was assigned to be commander of a reinforced company over

6 there, where I stayed until September 1992 as the main commanding officer

7 on that elevation which had great strategic importance for the town of

8 Zvornik and Podrinje, the Drina valley.

9 Q. After that, where were you?

10 A. After that, I went back to the brigade performing operative

11 duties, standing duty guard, et cetera.

12 Q. Can you tell us more precisely when did you practically move to

13 the operations section of the Zvornik Brigade?

14 A. Immediately after I left Kula Grad where I handed over to someone

15 else my unit of the 6th Battalion, and I believe it was in October 1992.

16 I started working then in what was later to become the operations organ.

17 Q. In end-1992, who was the commander of the Zvornik Brigade?

18 A. Mr. Pandurevic arrived around the 17th of December to the command

19 post then located in Orahovac. I know this because he arrived the day

20 before my patron saint's day, which is St. Nicholas.

21 Q. Who was chief of staff then?

22 A. Major Obrenovic. He could have been captain then. You will

23 excuse me if I don't remember all the ranks people held at that time, but

24 I believe he was captain.

25 Q. Until when did you stay in the operations organ of the Zvornik

Page 11673

1 Brigade?

2 A. I think until March 1993, when the then-major Pandurevic appointed

3 him -- appointed me assistant commander for morale and religion --

4 correction, religion and legal affairs. I remained on that post until

5 end-1993.

6 Q. After being assistant commander for morale until end-1993, where

7 did you transfer?

8 A. I transferred, according to the needs of the service, to the

9 operations organ. I was a trained officer and I was qualified.

10 Q. How long did you remain in the operations organ of the Zvornik

11 Brigade in that second round, that second stint?

12 A. Until the beginning of July 1995, I believe.

13 Q. What happened in the beginning of July 1995 in terms of your

14 functional duties?

15 A. Again, to meet the needs of the service and on the verbal orders

16 of the commander, I transferred to the service for morale, religious, and

17 legal affairs. There was not enough qualified personnel in that organ,

18 and somebody needed to help out. My commanding officer was Major Simic.

19 Q. For the record, tell us the name of Major Simic.

20 A. Major Nenad Simic.

21 Q. Thank you. So, from the first half of July until when did you

22 remain in the section for morale of the Zvornik Brigade?

23 A. I believe I stayed there until the completion of all combat

24 activities, until the signing of the Dayton Accords, with the proviso

25 that I did other jobs and perform other duties that are not strictly under

Page 11674

1 the purview of this section for morale, religious, and legal affairs.

2 Q. At this point, I wanted to ask you how long have you known Dragan

3 Jokic. When did you first meet him?

4 A. I have known him since he was a boy, because we lived next door.

5 There were about 50 metres between our houses. I am 10 years his senior

6 so we didn't socialise much, but I saw him around.

7 Q. Did you see him again when the war started?

8 A. I met up with him again when he came to be the chief of that

9 formation, which was to become the Zvornik Brigade, and he came to inspect

10 my unit at Kula Grad.

11 Q. How long did he remain chief of staff in the Zvornik Brigade?

12 A. I cannot remember the exact time, but I know it was not long. We

13 did not keep in touch. I was far away from the headquarters, from the

14 command, so I don't really know when he stopped being chief of staff.

15 Q. Do you know what position was assigned to him after that?

16 A. I'm telling you, I can't be sure because I wasn't kept posted. I

17 think he transferred to the Army of Yugoslavia, but he was absent for a

18 very short time. And when he came back again, he was appointed chief of

19 engineers in the Zvornik Brigade.

20 Q. Allow me, Mr. Bojanovic, to take you back again to year 1995 so

21 that you explain to us the positions and the structure within the Zvornik

22 Brigade. Can you remember in July 1995 who was commander of the brigade?

23 A. In July, brigade commander was the then-Lieutenant Colonel Vinko

24 Pandurevic.

25 Q. Who was chief of staff?

Page 11675

1 A. Major Dragan Obrenovic was the chief of staff.

2 Q. And what about the hierarchical structure of the Zvornik Brigade

3 and its command. What did the rest of it look like?

4 A. In addition to commander and chief of staff, the command also

5 included assistant commander for logistics, assistant commander for

6 security, and assistant commander for morale, religious, and legal

7 affairs. Therefore, the five of them comprised the command.

8 Q. Who held the post of the assistant commander for logistics?

9 A. Assistant commander for logistics was the

10 then-Captain Sreten Milosevic.

11 Q. What about assistant commander for security?

12 A. That post was held by Lieutenant Drago Nikolic.

13 Q. When you say that command is comprised of these five people, what

14 do you mean?

15 A. Well, commander, with the rest of the command, plans the

16 activities of the brigade, all of the activities, which means that these

17 people are his direct assistants.

18 Q. So the members of this inner command, as you call them, are they

19 hierarchically above the rest of the staff officers?

20 A. Yes, absolutely. Following the commander of the chief of staff,

21 we have the three assistants and then the rest of the staff officers.

22 This is the military hierarchy.

23 Q. Thank you. Did the command of the Zvornik Brigade have a staff as

24 an organised structure?

25 A. Yes. There was a staff and Major Dragan Obrenovic held the post

Page 11676

1 of the chief of staff.

2 Q. Who was in the staff of the Zvornik Brigade? Who were the staff

3 officers?

4 A. In addition to the chief of staff, the officers who were directly

5 subordinated to him were assistant to the chief of staff for training and

6 operation -- operative affairs. Then assistant chief of staff for

7 intelligence and reconnaissance, and assistant chief of staff for

8 personnel, and chiefs of arms of service that existed in the brigade.

9 Q. Could you please tell us who held which posts in the staff of the

10 Zvornik Brigade. Who was the assistant chief of staff for operative

11 affairs and training?

12 A. That post was held by Major Miodrag Dragutinovic.

13 Q. Who was the assistant chief of staff for intelligence?

14 A. The assistant chief of staff for intelligence was Captain Dusan or

15 Dusko Vukotic.

16 Q. And who was assistant chief of staff for personnel and general

17 administration?

18 A. That post of the assistant chief of staff for personnel and

19 general administration was held by Milan Galic, who was a major.

20 Q. Where did you serve at the time, in what organ, in the beginning

21 of July?

22 A. In the beginning of July up until the 8th of July, I served in the

23 operations organ. And then on the 8th or maybe the 9th, pursuant to a

24 verbal order of the commander, I was transferred to the organ for morale.

25 Q. Up until your transfer, who served in the training and operative

Page 11677

1 affairs organ of the Zvornik Brigade?

2 A. That is one of the most important organs, and up until that time

3 there were five or six senior officers, first class captains or majors,

4 serving in that organ. And if you wish, I can give you their names.

5 Q. Yes, please. Could you tell us the names of these officers?

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, I don't think there's any

7 disputes about the structure and the commanders in those structures.

8 Could we go over this section as soon as possible? Unless you believe

9 some information is very closely related to your client.

10 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honour, I

11 do take into account all of your suggestions, also the ones that you gave

12 before this examination-in-chief. But due to the fact that one segment of

13 the indictment speaks about the position held by Mr. Jokic, we wanted to

14 explain all of the positions that existed in the staff and who held those

15 posts. So we will try to cover this very briefly so as not to spend too

16 much time on it.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed. But please bear in mind our

18 concerns in this aspect. And we also believe that we have a kind of chart

19 of the structures of the brigade. Maybe we could use it to see where your

20 client fit in.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I think

22 we have used this organogramme a number of times, but because of that

23 organogramme which shows all staff officers as being on the same level, we

24 wanted to show exactly what were the authorities and tasks and duties of

25 all of those officers. Thank you again, and we will not dwell on this for

Page 11678

1 too long.

2 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, at one point you said that the operative organ was

3 the soul of the staff or something along those lines. Do you remember

4 that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What did you mean by that?

7 A. Well, all of the activities in the brigade go through that organ,

8 starting with the training, the control over the units, and all other

9 affairs that are of importance for the life of the unit, especially if

10 there are any combat operations. Those were the times when this organ was

11 activated.

12 Q. Does that mean that that organ had personnel of sufficient quality

13 and number at the time?

14 A. Yes. I said that in addition to assistant chief of staff for

15 personnel, there were some three or four majors in that organ and two

16 captains who also had some pre-war experience with that area of expertise.

17 Q. In the decision-making process and consultations with the chief of

18 staff, would these three assistant chiefs of staff for personnel,

19 intelligence, and operative affairs and training, would they be above

20 other senior officers?

21 A. Yes, definitely. Especially the assistant chief of staff for

22 operative affairs and training.

23 Q. Yes. And this is why I wanted now to turn to the position of the

24 chief of arms of service. Can you tell us how many assistant chiefs of

25 arms of service there were?

Page 11679

1 A. Yes. Major Dragan Jokic was in charge of engineering; Milisav

2 Petrovic, a captain, was in charge of communications; chief of artillery

3 was Captain or Major Miodrag Maksimovic; chief of air defence and air

4 force affairs was a man whose name I cannot recall now. So these are

5 mostly the people that I can recall now.

6 Q. What were the duties of the chiefs of arms of service in the staff

7 of the brigade?

8 A. The chiefs of arms of service, regardless of what service it was,

9 served as advisors, because they were experts in their field. They were

10 in the position to propose to command through the chief of staff how to

11 use the units of their arms of service in special type of combat action

12 and so on, or they would propose something regarding what their unit could

13 do. So they had this role of advisors. And they were liaisons between

14 the chief of staff and the units within their arms of service.

15 Q. At that time in July of 1995, did the Zvornik Brigade have an

16 engineering company within its structure?

17 A. At the time and also before, they had an engineering company which

18 was some 2 kilometres from the command at another location near Omladinsko

19 Naselje settlement. This company had its commander and its own structure

20 with three platoons I think. They also had certain equipment belonging to

21 the company.

22 Q. What were the duties and tasks of the engineering company within

23 the Zvornik Brigade?

24 A. Well, analysing the structure of the engineering company, which

25 had the so-called pioneering platoon and also construction platoon and

Page 11680

1 machinery platoon, one can conclude what were the duties of the

2 engineering company, to put up blockades, to build fortifications, to

3 transport something, to do all the jobs that required the use of

4 machinery, construction machinery.

5 Q. What were the duties of this pioneering platoon, as you called it?

6 A. The pioneering platoon built obstacles using mines and explosives,

7 and also other kinds of obstacles.

8 Q. Do you know, Mr. Bojanovic, whether battalions within the Zvornik

9 Brigade also had soldiers who were skilled in engineering activities?

10 A. Yes. Each battalion had three or four so-called engineers so that

11 they could use them in the areas of defence of their battalions to build

12 these obstacles using mines and explosives and so on. The chief of staff

13 was responsible for their training.

14 Q. The chief of arms of service, was he able to issue any orders or

15 to command the engineering company? Here I'm referring to chief of

16 engineering service.

17 A. Chief of engineering service was unable to issue direct orders to

18 commanders of those units.

19 Q. In the principle of the unity of command, who was in command of

20 the engineering company?

21 A. The engineering company and other units within various arms of

22 service were under the command of commanders of those units because if it

23 weren't structured in that way, then what other role would the commander

24 of a unit play.

25 Q. Could the commander of an engineering company on his own without

Page 11681

1 prior consent of the chief of staff use the engineering company as he sees

2 fit?

3 A. No. Under no circumstances can he use the troops or the machinery

4 without prior consent of the commander of the brigade or chief of staff.

5 Q. And in that system of the unity of command and subordination, what

6 is the role of the chief of arms of service in addition to this advisory

7 role that he plays, what other duties and tasks would that person perform?

8 A. Well, the chief of arms of service has a role of training of,

9 let's say, engineering unit or any other unit, so they are in charge of

10 training, they propose personnel to fill certain positions, they are in

11 charge of equipment for their unit, and that would be it.

12 Q. In July of 1995, were these principles applied in the functioning

13 of the staff of the Zvornik Brigade?

14 A. Yes. These principles were applied then and prior to the events

15 of July.

16 Q. When you say "functioning," do you mean to say that the military

17 rules and the military discipline were upheld in the staff of the Zvornik

18 Brigade?

19 A. Yes, naturally. That's how I see it and that's how I described

20 it.

21 Q. I would like now to ask you a few things about your position.

22 What was the reason for your transfer to the organ for morale from the

23 operative organ?

24 A. The reason for my transfer - and I was transferred pursuant to the

25 order of the commander - was that the organ for morale had only assistant

Page 11682

1 commander. It did not have any other senior officers who could carry out

2 the duties, and there were a lot of duties and a lot of work. And since I

3 already had some experience in that area, I was the most proper person to

4 fill that post.

5 Q. In those days when you worked in the organ for morale, what were

6 your duties and tasks?

7 A. My job was first and foremost to carry out the orders of the

8 assistant commander for morale. His orders mostly pertained to

9 organisations of funerals, and there were a lot of them at the time, to

10 ensure that we had everything needed for the funeral, and also to inform

11 the family of the soldier who had been killed, which was a thankless task

12 as you can see. Then we had to organise funerals, arrange for the

13 speeches and so on. Sometimes he was involved in that and sometimes I

14 was.

15 Q. Did somebody stand in for you in the operative organ during that

16 period of time?

17 A. No. Nobody stood in for me because there were no people, and

18 despite having been transferred to the organ for morale I also performed

19 duties of the duty operations officer, which means that I continued

20 performing some other duties that had nothing to do with morale. But we

21 simply did not have enough people, so I had to carry on with that.

22 Q. Could you tell us, please, briefly what were the duties of the

23 security organ and what authority did that organ of the Zvornik Brigade

24 have.

25 A. I can tell you what my view is. The security organ was in charge

Page 11683

1 of security in the area of defence of the Zvornik Brigade. And it

2 cooperated with the organs of the MUP. I never went into any deeper

3 analysis of the work of those organs, because in a way I was intimidated

4 by them. I used to serve in the former JNA, and these security organs

5 then and later on in Republika Srpska as well were always separate in a

6 way there. Their senior officers had special authorities. Commander of

7 the unit even didn't have to be informed about all of their activities.

8 They had their own separate hierarchy.

9 Q. What were the authorities of Drago Nikolic at the time, who was

10 assistant commander in that field?

11 A. Well, if I could I would call him grey eminence. He was a person

12 who dealt with the commander and probably conveyed to him the information

13 that he wanted to convey.

14 Q. Do you know that due to such treatment of the security organ in

15 the Zvornik Brigade, there was some problems between Pandurevic and

16 Nikolic?

17 A. I was present as duty operations officer when a telegram arrived

18 from the Main Staff, and Drago Nikolic and his people complained in that

19 telegram that the commander was interfering in their affairs. The

20 telegram stated that they should straighten out their relations and that

21 the security organ should carry on with its duties and tasks without much

22 involvement on the part of the commander.

23 Q. Now, Mr. Bojanovic, if I may ask you to cam back to the position

24 of the chief of engineers, what was the personality of Dragan Jokic and

25 what was his influence in decision-making overall within such a structure

Page 11684

1 of the Zvornik Brigade?

2 A. I can say that he was neglected, especially in the distribution of

3 roles. And in many cases he was underestimated, both by the chief of

4 staff and the commander of the brigade.

5 Q. On what do you base this conclusion?

6 A. Probably due to the overall relations, as they were. Major Jokic

7 seemed to lose all ambition and couldn't wait for the war to end. That

8 was in stark contrast to Pandurevic and the other senior officers who were

9 ambitious and aspired to military careers.

10 Q. Did he play an active part? Did he have a prominent role in the

11 work of the staff?

12 A. He executed his tasks and he tried as hard as he could; however,

13 his performance was not properly valued. I remember certain meetings held

14 in a broader composition, including the top command and the lower

15 officers, where critique was addressed to Major Jokic whether he had

16 performed well or poorly. He always seemed to be the target of criticism.

17 Q. To what extent did chief of staff Obrenovic appreciate his

18 position, his rank, and himself as a person?

19 A. This does not apply to Major Jokic alone but to other commanding

20 officers as well. He did not really value his qualifications, his

21 performance, and his work.

22 Q. Does that mean that there were personal problems between Obrenovic

23 and Jokic?

24 A. There were. The situation itself where Jokic was senior in age

25 and in rank found himself subordinated to the younger chief of staff.

Page 11685

1 Q. Is it the case that even then in July 1995, if you can remember,

2 there was a discrepancy, a difference, in rank between Jokic and

3 Obrenovic?

4 A. With the leave of this Honourable Court and with your permission,

5 I would like to explain a couple of things. I won't take long. I met

6 Mr. Pandurevic as captain first class. Eight or nine years later, he was

7 promoted four steps up the ladder and he was a major. I met Jokic as --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the ranks.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both of them were promoted four

10 ranks up. Major Jokic received two ranks only, I believe, after one year.

11 So these two ambitious senior officers, Pandurevic and Obrenovic, were

12 promoted four ranks in that time. One of them emerging as a major

13 general, and another one as lieutenant colonel. Whereas, Jokic was

14 promoted only two ranks, which means that the two of them only executed

15 the orders of the superior commanders and required their subordinates to

16 carry out their own orders unquestioningly.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, could we stop here for a moment for the sake of the

19 interpreters and repeat these ranks. After the end of the war you said

20 that Vinko Pandurevic had which rank?

21 A. Major general. He received it in 1999 or 2000, but in any case he

22 was a major general. And he was assistant chief of Main Staff.

23 Q. And which rank did Dragan Obrenovic hold after the war?

24 A. Lieutenant colonel, whereas the first time I met him he was 2nd

25 lieutenant.

Page 11686

1 Q. Thank you. Let me just ask you one more thing. Within the

2 structure of the Zvornik Brigade, as it was, who issued orders to

3 subordinated units? Who was the one with the power to use any unit

4 whatsoever?

5 A. It was within the discretion and the power of a unit commander to

6 issue orders to a particular unit, but with the consent of the chief of

7 staff or the brigade commander.

8 Q. Was it possible at any time for a chief of an arm of service

9 without the knowledge or consent of the commander or the chief of staff to

10 issue orders to a unit, to command a unit or tell them what to do.

11 A. That was not possible. There was always the commander of the unit

12 or the chief of staff or the brigade commander who were there to issue

13 orders. The chief of an arm of service could not directly command units.

14 Q. Is it possible for a chief of an arm of service to bypass the

15 chief of staff or the commander and send a unit to the defence area of

16 another brigade?

17 A. No. That is not possible. That situation could not occur. He

18 could not use that unit before consulting the chief of staff or the

19 commander in getting their approval, and least of all was he able to

20 command the unit.

21 Q. Does every and any use of a unit imply the consumption of materiel

22 such as ammunition, food, fuel, and would the organ for logistics supply

23 such materiel without the knowledge of the chief of staff or the

24 commander?

25 A. It is quite normal that a lot of materiel, especially in the case

Page 11687

1 of engineers, is used in such activities, such as fuel, food, machinery,

2 et cetera, but all this was settled through the assistant commander for

3 logistics, even the chief of staff alone could not handle that himself.

4 Q. Since we are interested, Mr. Bojanovic, in the period of July

5 1995, could you tell us: In those days, in the first half of July, where

6 was Vinko Pandurevic?

7 A. Vinko Pandurevic, as brigade command, left accompanied by a part

8 of mostly elite units of the Zvornik Brigade to be in the field and to

9 deal with Srebrenica and Zepa, to work on Srebrenica and Zepa as we used

10 to say in the army.

11 Q. In that period when Pandurevic was absent from the defence area of

12 the Zvornik Brigade, who was in command of the Zvornik Brigade?

13 A. Lieutenant colonel chief of staff Dragan Obrenovic, who was his

14 deputy automatically within that structure, was in charge. Either in

15 writing or verbally he was put in charge in the absence of the commander,

16 because ex officio he is the deputy of the commander.

17 Q. Do you know, Mr. Bojanovic, if any oral or verbal -- or written

18 orders existed on this transfer of authority from Pandurevic to Obrenovic?

19 A. I'm not aware of any written order because I was in the organ for

20 morale. If I had been part of the organ for operations, I would have

21 certainly known of the existence of such a paper.

22 Q. This begs the question: Did Obrenovic really de facto discharge

23 the duties of the commander?

24 A. De facto, he was the only one in the absence of the commander

25 issuing orders that had to be executed.

Page 11688

1 Q. Thank you. I would now like to move very quickly through the

2 couple of days that preceded the critical events, concentrating on the

3 duties of the duty operations officer. Mr. Bojanovic, can you remember

4 the day of the fall of Srebrenica?

5 A. I can. It was on the 11th of July, 1995.

6 Q. How did you find out about the fall of Srebrenica?

7 A. I learnt about it at the command, at the headquarters of the

8 brigade. You find out immediately through our communications.

9 Q. Where did you spend the night of the 11th of July?

10 A. I believe on the 11th, 12th, 13th, and 14th I was certainly at the

11 barracks, at the headquarters. When I say "the barracks" and "the

12 headquarters," I mean one and the same thing. I was performing the duties

13 assigned to me.

14 Q. Do you remember who was the duty operations officer on the 11th of

15 July at the brigade?

16 A. I can't remember. I don't have the list, the schedule, in front

17 of me. I don't have the roster with me, so I can't say. It could have

18 been me.

19 Q. And how about the 12th of July?

20 A. I was again at the barracks.

21 Q. Can you remember what were you doing on that day at the barracks?

22 A. You mean the 12th of July? I think I was following the orders of

23 Major Nenad Simic regarding affairs in the area of morale, dealing with

24 those funerals. I can't remember exactly what I was doing.

25 Q. Can you remember who was the duty operations officer on the 12th

Page 11689

1 of July at the brigade?

2 A. I think it was Major Maric who was captain at the time, although

3 again I'm not sure about the ranks.

4 Q. During those days, did you see Dragan Obrenovic at the brigade?

5 Was he performing his duties?

6 A. You mean this period, the 11th and 12th of July?

7 Q. Yes, that's what I mean.

8 A. No, I did not see him in the brigade.

9 Q. Whose instructions did you follow at the time in your work?

10 A. I followed the instructions of my superior officer,

11 Major Nenad Simic.

12 Q. Let me ask you, by the way, Mr. Bojanovic, were you ever in a

13 position to be the duty operations officer?

14 A. You mean generally speaking?

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. I believe that out of all the commanding officers of my rank, I

17 spent the most time working as the duty operations officer during the war

18 and later. On one occasion even -- in fact, for a while even I was head

19 of the operations team, which included five or six commanding officers,

20 and we organised operations, duty service, to make it function as well as

21 possible.

22 Q. What do you think was the reason why you happened to be the duty

23 operations officer of the brigade so often?

24 A. The reason must have been that I had a lot of experience in these

25 military affairs and that from the beginning of combat operations and the

Page 11690

1 establishment of the brigade I was frequently in that position.

2 Q. In principle, is it the case that it was the security organs who

3 provided duty operations officers?

4 A. According to the instructions on their work, they were given

5 approval not to serve as duty operations officers because they had a

6 similar duty in their own security organs. All the others were from time

7 to time assigned to serve as duty operations officer, depending on the

8 situation.

9 Q. Did the schedule of the shifts of the duty operations officer, was

10 that something that was determined in advance?

11 A. Before the 1st of every month, the list would be published for the

12 next month of duty operations officer by dates.

13 Q. Who made this roster?

14 A. This roster was made by someone in the operations organ, whether

15 it was the assistant chief of staff or somebody authorised by the chief.

16 And this list, depending on the situation, sometimes the list would not be

17 adhered to because some officer had some other duties for that certain day

18 and then he would be replaced by someone else. But this would only happen

19 amongst those who were already on the list for the shifts as duty

20 operations officers.

21 Q. How long did a shift last of a duty operations officer in the

22 brigade?

23 A. The shift would last 24 hours. It would be the duty operations

24 officer and his assistant. This was a very difficult and responsible job

25 where people get tired very easily and so on.

Page 11691

1 Q. Could the duty operations officers leave their post?

2 A. Only in exceptional circumstances could they leave their post to

3 carry out another task, but then the office would be manned by the

4 assistant or by someone else who was acting as a duty operations officer,

5 somebody who was already on the list. A young soldier could not

6 substitute for somebody who was trained and authorised to perform this

7 function.

8 Q. Could you please tell us what the job was of the assistant of the

9 duty operations officer.

10 A. His duty would be in case of absence, to stand in for the duty

11 operations officer. And it was also his duty to be on-call or to

12 substitute for the duty operations officer during the 24-hour shift while

13 the duty operations officer was resting or was absent for a little while,

14 for as long as the shift lasted.

15 Q. Does that mean at a certain point when the duty operations officer

16 was resting or left the room the assistant would take over the tasks of a

17 duty operations officer?

18 A. Yes, that is correct, as well as while the duty operations officer

19 was doing his shift, the assistant would also be involved in conveying all

20 the orders, messages, and so on to those they were addressed to.

21 Q. Thank you. In Zvornik Brigade, where was the duty operations

22 officer physically while performing his tasks?

23 A. In my interview on the 18th of September, 2001, I drew a kind of

24 diagram where this office was. The office was facing the river Drina.

25 That's where the duty operations officer's room was.

Page 11692

1 Q. Was this office in the Standard building?

2 A. Yes. The building was actually intended to be used as a shoe

3 factory but it never actually started to operate. So prior to the

4 commencement of combat operations, it was turned into the command for the

5 Zvornik Brigade.

6 Q. The duty operations officer's room, was it secured? Was access

7 forbidden to others? Or was it just like any other office?

8 A. As a rule, the duty operations officer and his assistant were not

9 supposed to leave that room for 24 hours nor were others supposed to enter

10 that room, except for the commander, the chief of staff, or the security

11 organ members. Sometimes, though, somebody would enter to ask for

12 information. Also, that was the only room that had a television in the

13 entire command. So sometimes when there was some special programme or a

14 soccer match or something, the commander would permit others to come into

15 the room so that they could watch the programme.

16 Q. Could you please tell us how the handover of duty between the

17 outgoing and incoming duty operations officer was carried out, how was the

18 notebook passed on and so on. Could you tell us briefly.

19 A. For example, if I was the duty operations officer, my successor

20 would come half an hour before his shift began. The changeover usually

21 took place between 8.30 and 9.00. He would come in a half-hour before his

22 shift was to begin. I would acquaint him with the working tasks and the

23 duties that were ahead of him, those that were underway or should be

24 implemented. We would both sign my remarks or entries that I made during

25 my shift, both of us would sign this. And then when all the documents

Page 11693

1 were prepared, we would then go either to see the commander. If he was

2 absent, we would then go to the chief of staff and that's where the

3 transfer of the shift would be completed.

4 During the handover, the outgoing person would pass over the tasks

5 to the incoming person. And then the outgoing and the incoming duty

6 operations officers would sign the logbook.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one more question,

8 Your Honours, and then I think it will be time for the break.

9 Q. Does that mean that the handover of duty could not be carried out

10 without the permission and signature of the chief of staff?

11 A. That's how it was in principle. Sometimes it would happen that

12 neither of the commander or the chief of staff were absent, neither of

13 them were there. And then they would tell us, well, you hand over the

14 shift and then when we come back then we will sign the appropriate book

15 and issue the tasks for the incoming duty operations officer.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bojanovic.

17 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this would

18 be a convenient time for a break.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll take a break. We'll resume at 10 minutes

20 to 11.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.17 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Stojanovic, I believe that you made some

24 progress compared with yesterday, but still there is some room for

25 improvement. You may proceed.

Page 11694

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Every

2 day in every way, I am improving. And let's hope that this will continue

3 to go on like that.

4 I would just like to ask the usher for her assistance to give the

5 witness the excerpt from the manual for the operations of staffs and

6 commands. This is Exhibit P394 and is a part of Mr. Richard Butler's

7 report. It's a document that we used when we examined the witness

8 yesterday.

9 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, may we continue?

10 A. Yes, please. Go ahead.

11 Q. Could you please look at Article 66 about -- from the manual,

12 which regulates the duties of the duty operations officer. And could you

13 please answer a question that is crucial in our defence and that is:

14 Which are the tasks, the duties, the obligations of the duty operations

15 officer?

16 A. The duties of the duty operations officer is to follow the course

17 of combat operations and to look at the working maps, to enter the changes

18 with their own and neighbouring units. Do I need to repeat my answer?

19 Q. If you can just read a little bit more slowly, Mr. Bojanovic,

20 because of the interpretation.

21 A. This is because I am repeating. Then, "to inform the commander or

22 the chief of staff about any major changes or orders issued by a superior

23 which require a decision of the commander; to be familiar with the

24 disposition of elements of the command post, the location of the

25 commander, chief of staff, and assistants to the commander; to control and

Page 11695

1 maintain communications with the operations duty officers of the superior

2 and subordinate commands."

3 Q. Can we just focus on this for a moment. How do you comment and

4 interpret this task, in view of the fact that you were a duty operations

5 officer? What is actually the task of the duty operations officer?

6 A. Even though these duties have been copied from the rules of

7 service of the former JNA, the task, as it is here, is to -- for the duty

8 operations officer to transfer orders from superior to the lower command,

9 from the corps commander to the brigade commander, and to the subordinate

10 units, and the other way around, from the bottom to the top. So his task

11 is to convey information. The duty operations officer is a form of relay,

12 a medium for the transfer of information, orders, and instructions.

13 Q. Could you please explain this to us using practical examples.

14 A. For example, regardless of the kind of order, the duty operations

15 officer does not have to deal with the essence or the substance of that

16 order but just needs to convey it to the officer who is supposed to

17 receive this order. And also, it works from the bottom upwards. The

18 operations officer does not need to know what the essence is or the

19 substance of the order but just needs to transfer it to the right person.

20 Q. Hypothetically speaking, in practice we can have the following

21 situation: The commander of the Drina Corps or the commander of the

22 brigade requests that the duty operations officer conveys an order to the

23 1st Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade to send 40 soldiers to the Snagovo

24 sector. What is the duty of the duty operations officer when he receives

25 such an order?

Page 11696

1 A. It is his duty to call the duty operations officer of the

2 battalion or the unit and to convey to him the orders from the corps

3 command or from the chief of staff or from the commander. He only has to

4 convey this to the other operations officer. And then it is his duty in

5 turn to inform his commander.

6 Q. Is the commander duty-bound to tell the duty operations officer

7 the content of the order and -- or the reasons for a decision? Is he

8 obliged to tell the duty operations officer why he requires 40 soldiers at

9 Snagovo?

10 A. No, he's not duty-bound or obliged to do that. It is only the

11 duty of the operations officer to convey such an order, nothing more.

12 Q. Another example: The chief of staff or the brigade commander asks

13 the duty operations officer to send machinery from the engineering company

14 to the Orahovac sector. Is the commander obliged to tell the duty

15 operations officer why these machines are required to be sent there?

16 A. I repeat once again that he is not obliged to tell that to the

17 duty operations officer. The duty operations officer does not need to

18 know why the machinery is required.

19 Q. I will try to turn this question around. Is the duty operations

20 officer obliged or does he have the right to ask the commander why these

21 machines need to go to that sector?

22 A. That was never the practice of the duty operations officer. It is

23 his duty only to transmit the information, either from the superior

24 command to the subordinate units or the other way around. That was always

25 the way it was done and it was supposed to be done.

Page 11697

1 Q. And a third possible situation: The duty operations officer for

2 some -- whatever reason cannot transmit this order to the subordinate

3 unit, can he then go there and convey the commander's order directly? And

4 in that case, what happens with the duty operations officer's post?

5 A. As a rule, the duty operations officer should not leave his post.

6 In that case, he would find other ways, either by a different means of

7 communications or by career, to transmit the order. It rarely happens

8 that the duty operations officer would go himself to directly transmit

9 such an order.

10 Q. If he did have to go and convey that himself, did somebody then

11 stay to perform the duty of the operations officer?

12 A. The post can only be left only with the permission of the

13 commander or the chief of staff. He can go personally himself, but in

14 that case there would be his assistant or another person authorised to

15 perform the duty of an operations officer in his stead.

16 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, it states here: "Received and dispatched

17 information." Is the duty operations officer obliged to provide the

18 commander or the chief of staff with the return information, whether he

19 acted upon his orders and whether the instructions were implemented?

20 A. If he receives such a message, he is obliged to inform the

21 commander. But if he does not receive it, then he's not obliged to do

22 that. Could you please repeat your question.

23 Q. Very well. We'll go more slowly. When the duty operations

24 officer carries out the task given to him by the commander and conveys

25 this order, is he obliged, according to the rules, to inform the commander

Page 11698

1 to tell him, I acted on your request or instructions. I have carried out

2 this, I have transmitted the order?

3 A. Yes, the commander has to be informed that the task was carried

4 out, that the message was transmitted.

5 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that the commander must be informed

6 about whether the tasks -- task assigned to the duty operations officer

7 was carried out or not?

8 A. Yes. The commander has to be informed about whether his order had

9 been implemented.

10 Q. During those days the commander was absent from the Zvornik

11 Brigade and occasionally the chief of staff would also be absent. He

12 would be on the field. Was the commander then in command of the unit via

13 radio communication, even though he wasn't physically present there?

14 A. Yes. The commander, chief of staff, or deputy commander, they all

15 have various means of communication at their disposal and they can use

16 them even though they're not physically present at the headquarters. But

17 they are still in the area of defence of the brigade and they are still in

18 command.

19 Q. Does that mean that he can be in command even though he's not

20 physically present at the headquarters but is actually in the area of

21 defence of the brigade?

22 A. Yes, because he still has means of communication at his disposal.

23 He can use courier service and he can still be in command.

24 Q. We had occasion here to hear the term "the continuity of command."

25 We heard it in the evidence of Mr. Butler. Can you please explain how you

Page 11699

1 understand this concept.

2 A. This means that in the brigade, in any unit, there always has to

3 be somebody in command in the area of defence, for example, of the Zvornik

4 Brigade. So if the commander is absent, there should be chief of staff

5 there. If the chief of staff is not there, which happened very rarely,

6 then if it was only a short absence, the chief of staff would appoint

7 assistant for operations and training to be in command at the

8 headquarters. It was very seldom. I don't even remember those occasions

9 that both the chief of staff and commander were absent at the same time.

10 Q. And we come to the key question here: Can duty operations officer

11 at any time be in command of subordinate units, staff units, or

12 battalions?

13 A. No. He is not there to be in command. He cannot be issuing

14 orders to commanders of battalions and so on. He can only issue orders to

15 his assistant, to couriers, and to technical staff. I as duty operations

16 officer was authorised to tour those standing guard, various guard posts.

17 I could issue orders to my assistant but not to commanders of other units.

18 Q. At one point today you said that by using means of communication,

19 commander or chief of staff was always able to be in command. What means

20 of communication were available to duty operations officer? Can you

21 please tell us that.

22 A. The duty operations officer had so-called local telephone, direct

23 telephone line where we can receive incoming calls from the town. There

24 also was a PTT telephone line. For example, a commander of a battalion

25 who had the so-called civilian telephone line could communicate with

Page 11700

1 commander or chief of staff without informing the duty operations officer

2 about the contents of that conversation. We had so-called many telephone

3 switchboard with four local numbers at the duty operations officer's

4 office, and we used that switchboard to transfer the calls either to

5 commander chief of staff or assistant for logistics.

6 Could the monitor be removed from here, because I can't follow.

7 Q. Which means of communication were available for regular

8 communication for the duty operations officer?

9 A. Those were most telephones, either field telephones or direct

10 telephone lines or the ones with extensions. And they could also transfer

11 any incoming calls to radio communication. If there were only short

12 distances involved, then courier service could be used as well.

13 Q. Could we give an example. Commander of the Drina Corps or

14 somebody from the headquarters of the Drina Corps calls the brigade and

15 needs to speak to the duty operations officer to convey an order or a

16 request. How would that communication be established? Would it go

17 directly to the duty operations officer or through somebody else?

18 A. Well, they could call duty operations officer directly if there

19 was a civilian telephone available. It could also go through a

20 communications centre. They could call the number or a certain extension

21 and say, We need to speak to somebody from the Drina Corps, and then they

22 would connect the line with me through this many switchboard.

23 Q. The radio communication, did it go through hard wire or through

24 airwaves?

25 A. Well, I have to tell you that I'm not an expert in this area, but

Page 11701

1 I think that airwaves were used because we had codes, which must mean that

2 airwaves were used.

3 Q. During this shift of the duty operations officer, would he

4 occasionally receive a message from the corps without speaking directly to

5 the people in the corps, but rather by receiving it through the radio

6 centre, the communications centre?

7 A. Yes, that would happen occasionally. We would get a message from

8 the communications centre saying, Well, such-and-such called and they want

9 you to do this and that. But in most cases they would connect us. They

10 would connect the duty operations officer to the person at the

11 headquarters of the corps.

12 Q. Then we have the following situation: Somebody from the corps

13 wishes to transmit a message to the security organ of the Zvornik Brigade.

14 For example, that Beara would arrive the following day at 1500 hours. In

15 that system of message transmitting, what is the role of the duty

16 operations officer?

17 A. Well, the duty operations officer would simply have to transmit

18 the message. He would not get involved into the reasons for Beara's visit

19 and so on. He would simply convey the message that Beara would be

20 arriving at such-and-such a time, and that would be the end of it.

21 Q. And let us conclude with this topic. If the message doesn't -- is

22 not coming from the commander or the chief of staff of the Zvornik Brigade

23 but rather from the headquarters or the officers at the headquarters of

24 the Drina Corps, would the duty operations officer be authorised or would

25 he be duty-bound to inquire into the reasons why the message is being

Page 11702

1 sent?

2 A. No, he wouldn't have authority to do that. He would be afraid of

3 inquiring into the reasons.

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bojanovic. I would like to turn to another area

5 that has to do with the duties of the duty operations officer. You are an

6 operations officer or you are an officer in the morale organ and you take

7 over your 24-hour shift as duty operations officer. So during your shift

8 as duty operations officer, would you still continue to carry out your

9 other duties in your other post?

10 A. As soon as somebody takes over the shift of the duty operations

11 officer, all his other duties in the organ where he has his main post are

12 discontinued. So there is a 24-hour stay in carrying out his other

13 regular duties. They are discontinued for that period of time.

14 Q. Does that mean that during that 24-hour shift he does not continue

15 carrying out his functional duties?

16 A. That's right. He does not continue carrying them out. And let me

17 just tell you that the duties of the duty operations officer are so

18 demanding that no one would be able to carry out two different types of

19 duties simultaneously. Therefore, his other regular duties are, so to

20 speak, frozen for a 24-hour period of time.

21 Q. Does that mean that that is yet another reason why security organ

22 officer cannot at the same time perform duties of the duty operations

23 officer?

24 A. Yes, in view of the nature of their work and the peculiarities of

25 their work, they were never appointed to duty operations officer duties.

Page 11703

1 They could not simultaneously carry out the duties of the duty operations

2 officer and the sensitive tasks that they have to carry out as officers of

3 security organ.

4 Q. I wanted to ask you what documents, what notebooks or logbooks,

5 are kept by the duty operations officer.

6 A. Regular practice was to have the duty operations officer record

7 any incoming information. This was recorded in the notebook of the duty

8 operations officer. In addition to that, duty operations officer would

9 draft a regular and interim -- or rather, daily and interim combat reports

10 and also record any incoming telegrams.

11 Q. What is this notebook of the duty operations officer?

12 A. The notebook at the brigade was just an ordinary notebook where

13 duty operations officer would record incoming messages, either those

14 coming from civilians, for example, if there were any messages from

15 girlfriends coming in and so on, all of these messages would be recorded

16 so they could be later transmitted on. Also, messages coming in from the

17 commands or messages being sent out to superior commands, requests for

18 materiel, and so on, all of that would be recorded in that notebook.

19 Q. What about the war logbook?

20 A. The war logbook was kept by the operations department. The

21 contents of the war logbook were typically dictated by the assistant chief

22 for operations. He would normally dictate that to one of the officers who

23 had nice handwriting, because there was a record that would be kept for a

24 long time.

25 Q. I wanted to ask you about these specifics. You said that the war

Page 11704

1 logbook was a long-term document. What about the notebook of the duty

2 operations officer?

3 A. Well, the notebook could be thrown away after it was completed, or

4 it could be put in the archives. So it's not an official document meant

5 to be kept for a long period of time. Sometimes the duty operations

6 officer would scribble in the notebook, whereas the war logbook was not

7 that type of a document, it was an official document.

8 Q. Does that mean that sometimes officers would write in the notebook

9 information that was not significant in the military sense?

10 A. Yes. Sometimes that would happen. For example, some civilians

11 would call in and say, Please contact such-and-such and tell them that we

12 want to meet at such-and-such time and so on. So this was basically a

13 record of communication that was coming in. Some information was of a

14 serious nature and some wasn't.

15 Q. Thank you. You said that duty operations officer prepared daily

16 and interim combat reports. What does that entail?

17 A. These daily reports at the time were sent every day in the

18 afternoon hours. The duty officer would record what was going on during

19 the day, at the front line, would also record any requests to the superior

20 command, and so on. Sometimes the commander or the chief of staff would

21 be present as the duty officer compiled the daily report. Sometimes they

22 would even dictate it to the duty officer. So these were reports that

23 were sent on a daily basis.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the usher to

Page 11705

1 assist us in order to give the witness an exhibit, P519, which is a daily

2 combat report compiled on the 14th of July, 1995.

3 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, we have heard here that Mr. Jokic on the 14th to

4 the 15th of July was the duty operations officer, and we had opportunity

5 to see the document that you have in front of you now. I wanted to

6 analyse this document with you now. Does this document have all of the

7 elements that you described to us?

8 A. Yes. Normally there would be eight, nine, or ten points in combat

9 report. It would describe the situation on the field, the battle front,

10 the -- it described any problems with morale, security. There would also

11 be requests of our units addressed to the Drina Corps. So this is what

12 was contained, and this is just a typical daily combat report.

13 Q. Is this report a document of command?

14 A. Yes. And this is a document meant to inform the superior command

15 on the state of affairs in the area of defence of the Zvornik Brigade.

16 Yes, this is naturally a document which is considered an act of command.

17 Q. Who signed this document?

18 A. Chief of staff, Major Dragan Obrenovic.

19 Q. Could such a daily combat report be sent to the Drina Corps

20 command without the approval, without the knowledge, or without the

21 signature of the chief of staff, Major Dragan Obrenovic at the time?

22 A. No way that this could happen. The duty operations officer could

23 prepare the daily combat report, but without the signature or approval of

24 the chief of staff it could not be sent to the command. A ready-made

25 report could sometimes lie there for a long time before the chief of staff

Page 11706

1 would come to sign it.

2 Q. You can see here in the left bottom corner, initials DJ/MV.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Since this is the 14th of July when Dragan Jokic was the duty

5 operations officer, what do these initials mean?

6 A. They mean that the report was prepared by Dragan Jokic and it was

7 typed out on the computer by Misko Vasic or somebody else with the same

8 initials.

9 Q. What does it mean it was prepared by Dragan Jokic?

10 A. It means that he processed all the incoming information and

11 requests and entered them into the report point by point. But whoever

12 prepared the report, it couldn't be sent without the appropriate

13 signature.

14 Q. Does the commander reserve the right to make some entries himself

15 or make corrections in the report previously made?

16 A. Yes, of course. He can make corrections or additions that he

17 deems necessary. Because the entire contents of the daily combat report

18 is the responsibility ultimately of the chief of staff or whoever signed

19 it.

20 Q. Thank you. Let me just draw your attention to item 4 of this

21 document. It says: "No extraordinary developments."

22 Have you found it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Would, for instance, a mass execution or a killing of a large

25 number of prisoners in the zone of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade

Page 11707

1 qualify as an extraordinary event that would have to be reflected in the

2 report and notified to the superior command?

3 A. It is an extremely extraordinary event, and it would certainly

4 find its way into the daily combat report intended for the superior

5 command.

6 Q. We know that in the afternoon, in the evening of the 14th of July

7 this event took place. Will you please look at the stamp and tell us when

8 this document was sent to the Drina Corps, at what time, if you can

9 discern it.

10 A. As far as I can see at 1840 hours, if I am reading this correctly.

11 Yes, 1840 hours.

12 Q. Is it written in the stamp that it's the 14th of July, or is it a

13 different date?

14 A. 14th of July, but I would say with a question mark.

15 Q. Which year?

16 A. 1995 or maybe this digit is actually a 7. Poorly legible in this

17 copy. I don't know why somebody would put the question mark.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With the assistance of the usher,

20 I would like us to look at another document. It is Prosecution Exhibit

21 P120, Your Honours, another document introduced through Mr. Butler. It is

22 an extraordinary combat report of the 14th of July, 1995. Or perhaps the

23 proper translation is interim combat report.

24 Q. It is poorly legible, so I will read it to avoid misunderstanding.

25 Will you please look at it, and if we are unable to read something, we'll

Page 11708

1 try together. Tell me first, what is the date of the report?

2 A. 14th July, 1995. And I can see the date and the month. The year

3 is less -- well, legible. It says "interim report."

4 Q. Would you please tell us: What is the difference between a daily

5 and an interim report? Is there any difference to the work of the duty

6 operations officer?

7 A. The difference is that daily reports were sent every day. Interim

8 reports were only sent in extraordinary situations such as the appearance

9 of large columns, traffic, accidents, or other casualties that would merit

10 an interim report. So apart from regular daily reports, interim reports

11 would be sent only occasionally.

12 Q. Intensive or heavy fighting or large needs that need to be met,

13 would they also qualify as extraordinary events?

14 A. What qualifies as an ordinary event is something that could

15 jeopardise the safety of Zvornik town or the Zvornik Brigade, such as a

16 large number of troops of the enemy would be such a danger to the Zvornik

17 Brigade.

18 Q. Can you tell us who signed this interim report, who sent it.

19 A. It was sent and signed by the chief of staff,

20 Major Dragan Obrenovic.

21 Q. Could an interim report be sent to the Drina Corps command only by

22 the duty operations officer alone, without the signature of the chief of

23 staff?

24 A. The same applies as to the daily report. The duty operations

25 officer would sometimes completely ignore such extraordinary events, and

Page 11709

1 the chief of staff would dictate such an interim report to him and order

2 him to send it to the superior command, either the chief of staff or the

3 commander.

4 Q. Would or could such an interim report be sent through the radio

5 communications centre only signed by the duty operations officer, without

6 the signature of the commander or chief of staff?

7 A. Absolutely not.

8 Q. Please look at this report and tell us the time and the day when

9 it was sent to the Drina Corps command.

10 A. 15th July 1995 at 0110 hours.

11 Q. Does that mean that this document was sent in the night of the

12 14th of July at 10 past 1.00 a.m.?

13 A. Yes, it was in fact the early morning hours of the 15th of July.

14 That's when it was sent.

15 Q. Does that mean that at that moment the document was not sent

16 without the signature of Dragan Obrenovic?

17 A. Certainly, because it couldn't be sent without his signature.

18 Q. Does that mean that Dragan Obrenovic was indeed at the command of

19 the Zvornik Brigade in order to be able to sign this?

20 A. Yes. He had to sign this document --

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MS. ISSA: That was a very leading question, Your Honour, on a

23 critical point.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

25 Rephrase your question, Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 11710

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I believe,

2 Your Honour, that I in fact received the answer and it's quite sufficient.

3 Q. I will finish with this question. Until 10 past 1.00 a.m. on the

4 15th of July, could this telegram be sent without the signature of Dragan

5 Obrenovic?

6 A. No, it couldn't.

7 Q. Thank you. Could you assist me once again with these initials,

8 DJ/MV in the left bottom corner.

9 A. I will repeat. Dragan Jokic drew up the report and Misko Vasic

10 typed it.

11 Q. Thank you. Let me now move on to another area and ask you about

12 your own movements so that we can relate you to the events concerning

13 Dragan Jokic. If you remember on the 12th of July, the duty officer was

14 Milan Maric.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Do you remember where you were on the 13th of July?

17 A. On the 13th of July, I was again in the headquarters at the

18 barracks performing various duties upon the orders of Nenad Simic, who was

19 my superior.

20 Q. Where did you spend the night of the 14th of July -- sorry, the

21 13th of July?

22 A. The night of the 13th of July, I slept at the headquarters until

23 2.00 a.m. when I was awakened in order to be given certain tasks that I

24 had to perform.

25 Q. Will you please tell us what it was all about. What did you do in

Page 11711

1 the night of the 13th of July until the morning of the 14th?

2 A. I know that after finishing my daily tasks on the 13th, I was

3 rather tired. However, together with the duty operations officer who was

4 Sreten Milosevic at the time and the chief of staff, I sent a telegram to

5 the command of the Drina Corps. That is one of the events that I

6 remember.

7 Q. Can you remember the time, what time it was when you were drawing

8 up this report?

9 A. It was between 6.00 or maybe 7.00 and 8.00 p.m., I can't remember

10 exactly.

11 Q. What happened later?

12 A. I wasn't feeling very well personally, if you're asking about my

13 movements. So I went to see a doctor at the infirmary. I started

14 sweating all of a sudden. He took my blood pressure, which turned out to

15 be high. It was something like 120 over 170 -- over 70, correction. So I

16 went to get some rest and some sleep. The chief of staff was informed

17 that I was feeling unwell.

18 Q. And what happened then?

19 A. After that a messenger woke me up and told me that the chief was

20 waiting for me in the duty operations officer room. I got dressed very

21 quickly and went to see him, feeling still drowsy and weak.

22 Q. Did you see the chief?

23 A. Yes, I did, both the previous evening and early in the morning

24 when he was giving me those orders.

25 Q. And that happened in the room of the duty operations officer?

Page 11712

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And what were the orders?

3 A. Although I was feeling unwell, as I said, he ordered me to take a

4 part of our forces, one reinforced platoon strong plus two Pragas - Praga

5 being an anti-aircraft, two-barrelled weapon, 30 millimetre in calibre -

6 plus one Doboj MUP platoon and go to the area of Maricici, a village which

7 is 7 to 10 kilometres away from Zvornik. He told me to leave a part of

8 our forces there in Maricici and take a platoon of the civilian police --

9 sorry, a company of the civilian police commanded by Captain Zoran

10 Jankovic and link up with the forces taken by then-Captain Maric to the

11 area of Snagovo.

12 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher assist us at this

13 point, please, so that we can move quickly through this, to show the

14 witness an excerpt from the map that we used yesterday, Your Honours,

15 marked for identification. It was a Defence exhibit, D128.

16 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, if you would kindly look at this map and take the

17 pointer to show us where Zvornik is, where you were in the night of the

18 13th of July, and where you were supposed to go upon Obrenovic's orders as

19 well as the location where you were supposed to link up with the said

20 units.

21 A. I left from the barracks in Karakaj with the mentioned units. I

22 passed through Zvornik. I came to the sector of Zlatne Vode. And then I

23 took the Mahmutici road where I arrived at the Maricici sector. That is

24 where I left some of the forces and with the rest I went towards the

25 Snagovo sector where I was supposed to meet up with Captain Maric.

Page 11713

1 Q. Why did you receive such an order from Obrenovic? Why were you

2 supposed to go to that sector in particular?

3 A. That sector was empty. There were no forces of ours there. Based

4 on the interim report and the information about the situation, a large

5 number of Muslims were going toward Tuzla. There was civilians in that

6 column, but about 30 to 40 per cent of the people in the column were

7 armed. So there was a possibility that they would go into Zvornik, which

8 would cause a panic for sure and make the civilian population in Zvornik

9 flee. Srebrenica would be a small -- was a small success in comparison to

10 the fall of Zvornik, because that would be a central point leading to

11 Semberija. That is why we had to disperse or deploy our forces over a

12 broader area in order to prevent such a breakthrough.

13 Q. At one point you said that members of the police went with you?

14 A. Yes. This was a unit that was attached for our assistance. The

15 unit came from Doboj and I've told you who the commander was of that unit.

16 Q. Was this the person who the next night on the 14th, in the

17 evening, was captured by the column of the 28th Division?

18 A. Yes. When we met up with Major Maric -- actually Captain Maric, I

19 had a different task. This was in the early morning on the 14th. I

20 informed Captain Maric with this other captain. And afterwards I found

21 out that after I left for this other task, that that captain was captured,

22 the commander of the military police unit from the Doboj MUP.

23 Q. When Obrenovic issued this order to you, did he go with you or did

24 he remain in the command of the Zvornik Brigade?

25 A. I don't know where he was. I left with the units. So I don't

Page 11714

1 know where he was after that.

2 Q. Where did you receive this order from Obrenovic?

3 A. On the 14th at 2.00 a.m. in the office of the duty operations

4 officer.

5 Q. Was he present?

6 A. No one else could have issued an order like that except for him,

7 to take these units in the late evening. I had to carry out that order,

8 even though I wasn't feeling so well.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, you did not answer the question put to

10 you by the counsel. I would like to hear a direct answer from you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what this is about. Of

12 course I will try to give you a direct answer.

13 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. I will repeat this question. At the time when he issued the

15 order, was Obrenovic personally present in the command of the Zvornik

16 Brigade?

17 A. He was personally present at the command at 2.00 a.m. on the 14th

18 of July, 1995.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

20 Q. Ljubo, can we continue? When did you return to the command of the

21 Zvornik Brigade? What time was that?

22 A. I cannot tell you exactly what time it was, but as soon as I met

23 up with Maric and handed the company over to him, I took a vehicle, a

24 Peugeot from the command, and returned to the barracks at approximately

25 6.00 a.m. on the 14th.

Page 11715

1 Q. And what did you do after that in the Zvornik barracks?

2 A. I cannot remember. There was some things to do probably relating

3 to the burial of our forces and probably Major Simic issued some specific

4 tasks. In the meantime --

5 Q. Just allow me for a second to ask you this: Do you recall the

6 11th, 12th, and the 13th, and do you remember if you saw Dragan Jokic at

7 all in the Zvornik Brigade command? Did you have any contact with him?

8 A. I do not recall seeing him there or having any contacts with him.

9 Had I had any contacts, I'm sure I would remember that.

10 Q. On the 14th, according to the information that we have, Dragan

11 Jokic took over as duty operations officer. Do you remember if you had

12 any contacts or activities with him on that day, the 14th of July?

13 A. Yes. I was in the barracks. I probably was doing something

14 regarding the assignments that were ongoing and something that had to do

15 with a task that I was scheduled to carry out on the 15th of July, 1995.

16 Q. I would ask you the following: Who was in command? Who was your

17 commander at that point in time? As an officer, under whose command were

18 you? Who was issuing instructions for your work and did that have

19 anything to do with the duty operations officer's tasks?

20 A. I was under the command of Major Simic as far as my duty

21 operations officer were concerned.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, what's the problem, Ms. Issa?

23 MS. ISSA: Sorry, Your Honour. I'm just wondering if we can maybe

24 break that up. It just -- there seems to be several questions there and

25 I'm just think perhaps we can streamline it.

Page 11716

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

2 It was a compound question. We can go at it one by one. You may

3 proceed, Mr. Stojanovic.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, let us break this up into two questions. First,

6 that day, on the 14th and the 15th, who did you receive your orders from?

7 A. It's like this -- it's complicated. First I was subordinated to

8 the assistant commander for morale Major Nenad Simic, and I received my

9 tasks from him.

10 Q. And Major Nenad Simic, who did he receive his orders from during

11 those days?

12 A. Those few days until the return of Commander Pandurevic, he

13 received his orders exclusively from the chief of staff.

14 Q. Did either of you on those days, the 14th and the 15th of July,

15 receive any kind of orders from the duty operations officer, Dragan Jokic?

16 A. No, we didn't receive orders from him. But there was some duties

17 that were established prior to that which I had to carry out on the 15th

18 in cooperation with the duty operations officer.

19 Q. Could you please tell us a little bit more about that.

20 A. Our unit, our brigade, was helping out in Sekovici. This is a

21 settlement about 40 kilometres from Zvornik and each shift of those people

22 took place on the 15th or the 30th. The people who were helping out would

23 be replaced by a new shift. So that on the 15th, it was my task to

24 implement this shift, to take the new people to their location and bring

25 the ones who were there back to the barracks. So my work with the duty

Page 11717

1 operations officer were as follows: He was supposed to check whether the

2 people who were supposed to go on this new shift, whether they were ready,

3 so that on the 15th, the next day, I could go with him so that we could

4 carry out this takeover.

5 Q. Could the operations officer order you to take or not to take this

6 shift to that location?

7 A. No. This order was given to me before by the chief of staff. I

8 remember - perhaps this is important to mention - that either over the

9 phone or via radio we talked, not on the 15th. But he told me to pay

10 attention to the sector of Bijela or Zuta Zemlja, which is on the

11 Zvornik/Sekovici road because there was a possibility that the column

12 would break through in that sector. There was also the possibility that a

13 bus could be captured or destroyed.

14 Q. I don't think that it was in the record. Who told you this?

15 A. This is what the chief of staff told me. He personally told me in

16 his own voice from somewhere out in the field. He said: Pay attention to

17 the Zuta Zemlja or Bijela Zemlja sector. I cannot remember which one it

18 was.

19 Q. So you are talking about the 15th in the morning?

20 A. Yes, when I was supposed to leave to carry out my assignment.

21 Q. Now, I would like to clarify a certain technical problem. Did you

22 provide a statement to the Prosecution before your testimony today?

23 A. Yes, I did. I was summoned. It was signed by Mr. Blewitt to

24 appear on the 18th of September, 2001, I think, at the premises of the

25 Tribunal in Banja Luka. I did respond to this call and I provided an

Page 11718

1 interview, as they call it.

2 Q. Do you remember saying on that occasion that this group that was

3 going to Snagovo and Maricici that you took that group on the 15th in the

4 morning there and not on the 14th in the morning there?

5 A. Yes, I remember stating that, but I wasn't sure. I got my dates

6 mixed up. I wasn't able to prepare for this interview because all the

7 relevant documents which I could have used to prepare were removed by

8 someone. Later it turned out that this was Lieutenant Colonel Obrenovic

9 who did that. So I made a mistake in the date by a day or two dates and

10 perhaps also in the exact time. So now I am asking the Chamber to forgive

11 me if I got my dates mixed up because it has been ten years almost since

12 then.

13 Q. But you remember at one point investigator Dean Manning asked you

14 whether there was a possibility that this assignment to meet up with Maric

15 was given to you on the 14th in the morning and not on the 15th in the

16 morning. And you said -- as far as you recalled, you said: As far as I

17 remember I am sure it was.

18 A. Yes, I said that I was sure that it was on the 15th. But later

19 when I looked at the notes which are important, I determined that this was

20 on the 14th in the morning.

21 Q. When you say by looking at the notes, which notes do you mean?

22 A. I'm thinking about the notes made by the duty operations officer

23 which were not accessible to us who had these interviews with the

24 investigators of the Tribunal.

25 Q. Why didn't you have access to them? Who had removed them?

Page 11719

1 A. I cannot say for certain but later I heard that these books were

2 removed and copied by the chief of staff, Dragan Obrenovic.

3 Q. When you looked at these notes, did that help you to determine the

4 exact date when you went to Snagovo and Maricici?

5 A. Yes. Once I looked at the book I was then sure about the dates

6 and all the other events that I talked about.

7 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I am sorry for

8 exceeding the time, but I think that this is a good opportunity to go on

9 our break.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will resume at 12.30.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.01 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, are you going to finish your

14 direct examination today or we have to continue tomorrow morning for your

15 direct?

16 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am really sincerely hoping,

17 Your Honours, that we will finish today. We still have two documents to

18 look at and the notebook of the duty operations officer, so I think that I

19 will not run into a time problem. But in any case, I thank you for your

20 patience.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, it seems to me that of course the testimony of

22 this witness is relevant to your client, but however I see there are very

23 few possibility of disputes concerning this testimony. I just hope you

24 bear that in mind and try to streamline your questions. You may proceed,

25 Mr. Stojanovic.

Page 11720

1 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, if you remember, we stopped before the break on the

3 15th of July when you were leaving with this shift. Do you remember?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Could you please tell us briefly where you went on the 15th of

6 July.

7 A. The officer on duty or his career woke me up at 5.00 a.m. so that

8 I would have enough time to prepare to take the shift to Sekovici. The

9 shift assembled around 9.00 a.m. I took them all in a bus where the

10 handover of the shift took place. I came in the afternoon between 1500

11 hours and 1530 hours, and somebody told me that I should go to Kitovnice

12 to the forward command post.

13 Q. I just have a question for you about the forward command post.

14 Could you please tell us about that.

15 A. The IKM, "Isturevo komandno mesto," is a forward command post. It

16 was located in Kitovnice and that post is used in emergency situations or

17 in the course of combat operations, which is what the situation was at the

18 time.

19 Q. And what happens at the IKM, who is there?

20 A. Almost all members of the inner command are at the IKM, the chief

21 of staff. If the commander is present, he is there, too. So the main

22 focus of the activities of the command is transferred to the IKM.

23 Q. And are duty operations shifts organised at the IKM?

24 A. Yes. They are organised there the same way that they're organised

25 in the command post. And sometimes a duty operations officer has more

Page 11721

1 work there and his duties are increased in comparison to the command.

2 Q. Does that mean that in July during intense combat operations,

3 there was also duty operations service established at the forward command

4 post?

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. Let me ask you: Was there a notebook of the duty operations

7 officer at the forward command post as well?

8 A. I can't remember that because at the time I didn't serve as duty

9 operations officer at the forward command post. But I assume that some

10 notes were taken and also daily combat reports and interim combat reports

11 were sent to the superior command. Therefore, I believe that there was

12 some kind of record there.

13 Q. Does that mean on the 15th at the forward command post there was

14 also a person on duty as duty operations officer?

15 A. Yes, that's correct, just like in the days prior to that.

16 Q. Perhaps this would be the right time to ask you whether you know

17 the code name for the duty operations officer at the Zvornik Brigade

18 command?

19 A. In the barracks, the code name was Palma and at the forward

20 command post the code name was Palma II, as far as I can remember.

21 Q. Therefore, Palma II was the code name for the forward command

22 post. That was the call sign?

23 A. Yes, that's correct.

24 Q. Upon your return to the headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade in the

25 afternoon on the 15th, where did you go from there?

Page 11722

1 A. I received an order from some senior officer to report to the

2 forward command post in Kitovnice. Therefore, I drove in a vehicle to the

3 forward command post.

4 Q. Is it possible that on the 15th of July, you were the duty

5 operations officer at the headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade?

6 A. No. That's out of question. I could not have been both in charge

7 of the shift, taking the shift to their location, be the duty operations

8 officer, and be present at the forward command post all at the same time.

9 That's impossible.

10 Q. When did you arrive at the forward command post?

11 A. I arrived at the forward command post at around 1700 hours or

12 1730, perhaps even a bit later because it took me some time to change my

13 clothing, take some rest, and only after that did I go with the driver to

14 the forward command post.

15 Q. How far is it to the forward command post from the headquarters of

16 the Zvornik Brigade?

17 A. I couldn't give you the accurate number, but between 15 and 20

18 kilometres from Karakaj where the headquarters of the brigade was located.

19 Q. How long did it take you to cover that distance from the command

20 of the Zvornik Brigade to the forward command post?

21 A. I think between 45 minutes and one hour.

22 Q. Was it a macadam road?

23 A. I'm not sure. The driver was the one who drove, and I can't

24 remember whether we went via Orahovac or Jardan, but I know that -- I know

25 what time it was approximately when I reached the forward command post.

Page 11723

1 Q. For the sake of the record, what is the name of that other place.

2 Was it Jardan?

3 A. Yes, that's correct. Jardan, with an R.

4 Q. Thank you. Who did you find at the forward command post?

5 A. There definitely was the commander there, Vinko Pandurevic,

6 because it was evening already and he had returned from the forces from

7 the Srebrenica sector. I think that I also saw assistant commander for

8 security there as well as assistant chief of staff for communications.

9 Also present was the officer for intelligence and reconnaissance

10 information, Mica Petkovic. I'm not quite positive about him. That was

11 the first time that I saw Commander Pandurevic, following his departure to

12 Srebrenica.

13 Q. Did you receive orders from Pandurevic at that time or from

14 Obrenovic? Who was in command of the Zvornik Brigade?

15 A. When the commander is present, then he is in charge, meaning

16 Commander Pandurevic. But I also could have received orders from the

17 chief of staff and the commander.

18 Q. Where is the forward command post? What does it represent? What

19 kind of a facility is it?

20 A. This is the weekend house, a small one, prefabricated, where they

21 had a small kitchen, one or two rooms, and that was the forward command

22 post; whereas, the observation post was in Kitovnice a little further

23 away.

24 Q. Let me ask you: On the 15th in the afternoon when you came to the

25 headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade, did you see Dragan Jokic there?

Page 11724

1 A. No, I didn't see him there. I didn't see him at the brigade upon

2 my return from Sekovici, nor did I see him at the forward command post.

3 Q. From the forward command post, could one communicate, and by what

4 means, with the Drina Corps or with the brigade?

5 A. Yes, it was possible to communicate, both with the brigade and the

6 corps command. With the brigade we had a telephone line, meaning that

7 directly through the communications centre one could contact the command

8 of the Drina Corps. And there was also a signalman on duty with RUP-12

9 equipment, which was used to establish connection.

10 Q. Did the forward command post also have means of communication with

11 the battalion?

12 A. I'm not sure about that. There probably was something. I don't

13 know whether their communication went through the duty operations officer

14 or there was a direct line, which I doubt. It was most likely that

15 through the duty operations officer at the barracks they had communication

16 with all battalions. They could also communicate with them via the radio.

17 Q. Do you remember on that afternoon of the 15th anything particular

18 about your activities?

19 A. I remember seeing Commander Pandurevic then, chief of staff

20 appeared later. They talked in the weekend house. I wasn't present

21 there. They talked for 30 minutes to 45 minutes. What was important for

22 me was that after their conversation, I was asked to come to the weekend

23 house, the command post. I was asked to come in, and he dictated an

24 interim combat report to me, which was to be sent to the corps.

25 Q. For the sake of the record, tell us please who asked you to go

Page 11725

1 into the weekend house and dictated the interim combat report to you?

2 A. It was Commander Pandurevic. I was one of the officers with good

3 handwriting, so he wanted to make sure that it would be legible.

4 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please assist us in

5 presenting the next exhibit to the witness, which is Exhibit P528.

6 This is a document tendered during the evidence of

7 Mr. Richard Butler. This is interim combat report dated 15th of July,

8 1995.

9 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, you have now in front of you a handwritten interim

10 combat report. Do you see it?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Is this your handwriting?

13 A. Yes, it is definitely my handwriting.

14 Q. Please take a look at the heading. On what date was this report

15 compiled?

16 A. The 15th of July, 1995.

17 Q. Who was it sent to?

18 A. Interim combat report was sent from the brigade, just like daily

19 combat reports, to the Drina Corps command.

20 Q. Please take a look at the second page and tell us who signed this

21 report. Whose report is this?

22 A. Lieutenant Colonel Vinko Pandurevic. The commander signed the

23 document. It's not a full signature; he just initialled it. But this is

24 definitely his handwriting.

25 Q. Looking at the form and the contents of this report, is it

Page 11726

1 identical to the other ones that you described before?

2 A. Yes. They are all the same, regardless of where they are sent

3 from. Both interim and daily combat reports have the same contents. They

4 are approved and sent either by the commander or the chief of staff.

5 Q. So this report couldn't be sent to the Drina Corps command without

6 a signature of the commander or chief of staff either?

7 A. Yes, that's correct. Regardless of whether the report is sent

8 from the forward command post or the main command post, the commander who

9 was present had to sign it, either the commander or the chief of staff who

10 was standing in if the commander was absent. Nobody else could have

11 signed these documents.

12 Q. Is it possible that you wrote this report when you were quite at a

13 distance from Vinko Pandurevic and when he dictated this to you via the

14 radio?

15 A. No, that would have been impossible. I sat down, took two sheets

16 of paper, and he dictated this report to me. We had no typewriter there.

17 And as I was considered to have good handwriting, I was asked to do this.

18 Q. Would it be possible, hypothetically, to have this dictated via

19 telephone or via radio connection and then sent without a signature?

20 A. No. That would be impossible. Somebody always had to sign the

21 report before it was sent to the superior command, because one never knows

22 who is on the other side of the line and who is dictating the report.

23 Q. Are you sure that this is Vinko Pandurevic's signature?

24 A. Yes, I'm 100 per cent certain. First he signed the report in my

25 presence, and, second, I know both his initials and his full signature.

Page 11727

1 I'm well acquainted with them.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Stojanovic, I think you have already

3 exhausted the questions on that very issue. The witness's answer is quite

4 certain.

5 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I will

6 just read out the bit that has most relevance in this telegram. This is

7 precisely why I was putting these questions. If you remember, we heard

8 that Obrenovic also dictated the interim combat report.

9 Q. Therefore, Mr. Bojanovic, could you please read out slowly the

10 second and the third paragraph of the text of this interim combat report.

11 A. Should I start here where it says "additional burden"?

12 Q. Yes, that's right.

13 A. "An additional burden for us is the large number of prisoners

14 distributed throughout schools in the brigade area, as well as the duties

15 pertaining to security and sanitisation of the terrain."

16 The next paragraph: "This command cannot take care of these

17 problems any longer, as it has neither the materiel or other resources

18 needed. In no one else takes over this responsibility, I will be forced

19 to release them."

20 Q. Thank you. On that occasion, as you were writing out this text,

21 did you learn anything from Pandurevic about the prisoners?

22 A. All I learned was what I wrote down. To tell you the truth, I'm

23 like a typist typing what somebody else is dictating. So I didn't inquire

24 about anything because we were in a difficult situation. So I didn't

25 inquire anything -- about anything outside of this report.

Page 11728

1 Q. This information about the prisoners, did he write it down before

2 or after his conversation with Obrenovic?

3 A. I told you it was after their conversation which lasted 45 minutes

4 to one hour. So after that he called me in and dictated this to me.

5 Q. Would you please read out what it says on the stamp. When was

6 this sent to the Drina Corps command?

7 A. The 15th of July, 1995, at 19.25.

8 Q. How long does it take to send this telegram after you have

9 finished writing it?

10 A. The telegram can be sent right away, because at the forward

11 command post there is a duty signalman who can transmit the encoded report

12 to the Drina Corps command. You can see right away that this was sent by

13 a different signalman, the one who was present at the forward command

14 post, not the one who was at the main command post in the barracks.

15 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we now go

16 into private session, please?

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session, please.

18 [Private session]

19 (Redacted)

20 (Redacted)

21 (Redacted)

22 (Redacted)

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19 (Redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Yes. Those are precisely the pages. Go to the place where it

23 says "16th of July." Can you recognise whose handwriting that is and does

24 that resemble your handwriting?

25 A. Let me tell you right away that I always use the Cyrillic script

Page 11732

1 and I don't see any Cyrillic script here or any handwriting that would

2 resemble mine. The other handwritings, I don't know. 16th, I don't know.

3 It depends who was the duty operations officer. If I knew who that was,

4 perhaps then I could tell whether that was their handwriting or not. But

5 in any case, there is -- my handwriting is not here.

6 Q. Any of the other people who were duty operations officers in the

7 Zvornik Brigade and were working in the same tasks that you worked at, did

8 any of them use the Cyrillic script? Can you remember?

9 A. No, I cannot. I remember that the late Captain Momo Vasiljevic,

10 who happened to be a relative of mine, also used the Cyrillic script.

11 Such people who used the Cyrillic script were rare, there were perhaps

12 three or four of us.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bojanovic.

14 Could you please tell us what was happening on the night of the

15 15th and where you were on the 16th, but let's go step by step. Where

16 were you on the night of the 15th to the 16th?

17 A. When I wrote this report which was sent, I, just like a majority

18 of the officers who were thinking maturely in that situation, attempted to

19 remove myself from those officers and from the chief. Because, like I

20 said, in that situation I could have been given a kind of assignment which

21 would have put my in jeopardy. So that is why I pulled back to the

22 command of the 4th Battalion and spent the night there. In the morning, I

23 reported to the IKM, and then afterwards I went to the Zvornik barracks

24 again.

25 Q. Were you at the Zvornik barracks on the 16th?

Page 11733

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. On that day, on the 16th --

3 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I may ask for us

4 to move into private session again for a minute.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go to private session, please.

6 [Private session]

7 (Redacted)

8 (Redacted)

9 (Redacted)

10 (Redacted)

11 (Redacted)

12 (Redacted)

13 (Redacted)

14 (Redacted)

15 (Redacted)

16 (Redacted)

17 (Redacted)

18 (Redacted)

19 [Open session]

20 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in open session. You may proceed.

21 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, at one point you said on the night of the 15th

23 because of being in jeopardy you decided to move out of the command. What

24 did you mean when you said that?

25 A. Well, our lines were threatened from the front and from the rear.

Page 11734

1 And it could have happened that I had to go to help somebody out. This

2 was a dangerous situation, so it was normal for me to put myself out of

3 harm's way so I would not be jeopardised. So I went a couple of

4 kilometres away from the forward command post simply to get lost so I

5 wouldn't be seen.

6 Q. Do you remember what your duties were on that day, on the 16th in

7 the command of the Zvornik Brigade? What did you do?

8 A. I cannot remember, but it was probably something to do with my

9 organ for morale. And I know that I received an oral order from the

10 commander for the next day, the 17th, since we didn't see each other to go

11 to the IKM and to go and search the terrain in a certain sector. And

12 perhaps I will tell you where I was supposed to go. Together with the

13 assistant chief of staff for operations and a company from the 16th

14 Krajina Motorised Brigade, I was supposed to go to search the terrain, and

15 I did that. In the following -- along the following axis: IKM,

16 Baljkovica, Kisla [phoen], elevation 602, and Crni Vrh. That was the

17 axis. To sweep the terrain, to make sure that there were no killed or

18 wounded of ours and also to make sure that there were no enemy soldiers

19 like that.

20 Q. While you were searching the terrain on the 17th, did you

21 encounter enemy soldiers and did you have any clashes with them?

22 A. The group that we were taking, the group being taken by

23 Major Dragutinovic and myself, this unit from Banja Luka, did not

24 encounter any enemy troops. But we found two dead soldiers of ours at

25 Baljkovica. One of them was lying along the road. I happen to know one

Page 11735

1 of them, his name was Mrda. He was a member of the sabotage

2 reconnaissance detachment. We did not find any other bodies or fighters

3 from our side or from the enemy's side.

4 Q. Could you please tell us which units were sweeping the terrain on

5 the 17th.

6 A. This company-sized unit was led by a major. I cannot remember his

7 name. It came as reinforcement in this emergency situation. But since

8 they didn't know the terrain very well, then the assistant chief of staff

9 and I went to take them through this terrain which we were familiar with.

10 We swept the terrain again on the 18th and the 19th of July, 1995.

11 Q. Was there any fighting on the 18th or the 19th? Were any members

12 of the BiH Army captured?

13 A. In that section where my assignment was, there was no fighting.

14 Because the main part of those forces -- of their forces had already

15 crossed over into their terrain. There were some breakthroughs, so

16 that -- through the territory, so that I, myself, and my unit did not have

17 any encounters with the enemy troops.

18 Q. Were there any other groups who were also sweeping the terrain on

19 orders of the command of the Zvornik Brigade?

20 A. Yes, this was only one section that we were covering. There were

21 other sections, both in the rear of the zone of defence of the brigade and

22 especially in places where the line of defence was broken through. I

23 don't know what their sectors were, but I'm sure that there were other

24 units who were performing the same tasks.

25 Q. On the 17th, 18th, or the 19th of July, did you meet Dragan Jokic

Page 11736

1 anywhere, in the command of the Zvornik Brigade or anywhere else?

2 A. No, I didn't have that opportunity. I was in the woods with that

3 unit, so there was no opportunity for me to see him.

4 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, throughout these few days from the 12th, 13th, up

5 until the 20th of July, did you have the opportunity to see security

6 officers of the Drina Corps or from the Main Staff or any other officers

7 from the superior command in the Zvornik Brigade command?

8 A. There were such officers, probably ones from the Drina Corps and

9 from the Main Staff. I didn't know them. And when I was in my office on

10 duty, they didn't address me. I didn't have any contacts with them. But

11 there were some officers whom I didn't know. I know Colonel Beara, but I

12 didn't see him at that time. I don't know about the others. I don't know

13 who they were, whether they were from the security organ or other

14 departments. In any case, I didn't have any contacts with them.

15 Q. Did you notice what they were doing, what was the reason for their

16 presence in the Zvornik Brigade command or in that area in general?

17 A. Well, I thought it was because of this emergency situation with

18 the arrival and passage of the column, so I believed that it was their

19 task to provide moral and other kinds of support in this difficult

20 situation. But I don't know exactly what they did. I also don't know who

21 they were in contact with.

22 Q. Did you find out later that parallel with these legal and

23 legitimate operations, there was also the dramatic situation with the

24 executions?

25 A. I don't know about that. I was at the barracks doing my job, and

Page 11737

1 I only found out about it from the media after the signing of the Dayton

2 Accords. There was talk around town, but I didn't have the opportunity to

3 check anything. In any case, at the brigade command after those events

4 and in particular during these events which were proved to have happened,

5 there was no word about it, it wasn't discussed, it wasn't analysed, there

6 were no meetings about that.

7 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, as one of the most experienced officers there, at

8 least in your years of work, what is your comment on that, on the fact

9 that such an important event was never analysed at an official meeting and

10 that this question was never dealt with in the command of the Zvornik

11 Brigade?

12 A. It's my opinion that certain officers really did not know about

13 it. Some officers knew about it from the civilian authorities and the

14 security organs. And this was not accessible to us, this information I

15 mean. And it's a good thing that it wasn't.

16 Q. Was this shame being concealed?

17 A. Yes, most probably. Everybody was ashamed of such a shameful act,

18 and quite rightly so. Besides the officers who participated in this,

19 there are many honest men who wouldn't even think of doing such a thing.

20 Q. Thank you. Could you please allow me to go through some documents

21 in which your name is mentioned and then you can help us to go through

22 them.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please show the

24 witness the relevant pages from the duty operations officer's notebook in

25 which the name of Ljubo Bojanovic is mentioned.

Page 11738

1 Q. Mr. Bojanovic --

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, these are exhibits

3 P507, ERN number 03089342, and B/C/S version ERN number 02935747.

4 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, please take a look. This page is dated the 14th of

5 July, and for your information Dragan Jokic was the duty operations

6 officer at the brigade command. It says here: "Dubravka called Ljubo

7 Bojanovic."

8 A. Yes, that's right. I can see that.

9 Q. Can you explain this?

10 A. Dubravka is not a code name of any organ or any senior officer.

11 This is a girl who lived in my mother's house and was dating the driver of

12 Commander Pandurevic. And since she knew me, she would call me to convey

13 a message. And this is an example of one of those messages of nonserious

14 nature that I described to you earlier.

15 Q. Do you recognise the handwriting of Dragan Jokic?

16 A. If he was the duty operations officer, he would do this in a

17 proper way. I can't remember now, but that's probably how it was.

18 Q. Why is it that Dubravka, the girlfriend of the driver, contacted

19 you?

20 A. Because she knew me. She didn't know Jokic, so she couldn't have

21 conveyed a message through Jokic.

22 Q. Thank you. Let us now turn to another relevant page.

23 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this is again

24 Exhibit P507, ERN 03089348, the English version. And the B/C/S version

25 02935753.

Page 11739

1 Q. Again, these are notes taken while Dragan Jokic was the duty

2 operations officer, and here underneath the 15th of July it says here:

3 "Wake up Milosevic" at 6.15. "Ljubo" at 5.50.

4 Can you explain what this means?

5 A. Yes, this was the 15th of July and I had to take people to their

6 shifts. So I had to get up early in the morning, get ready, see whether

7 the unit was ready, to see whether they had the necessary materiel and the

8 equipment. So I had to get up a bit earlier, although this is not very

9 early. But I had to do this in order to prepare.

10 Q. Does this mean that assistant commander for logistics, Sreten

11 Milosevic, also slept at the headquarters of the brigade and had to be

12 awakened at 6.15?

13 A. Yes, definitely. Because had he been at home, there would have

14 been a civilian telephone number here, through which the assistant duty

15 officer or duty operations officer would call him to wake him up. So this

16 means that he was in the barracks.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, let us turn to another relevant page where the

18 name of today's witness is mentioned.

19 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this again is

20 exhibit P507. The relevant page in English is ERN number 03089366 and

21 B/C/S version is ERN number 02935771.

22 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, these are the notes of the duty operations officer

23 on the 16th of July, where it says: "The vehicle from Banja Luka of the

24 company station is to be sent to the school in Orahovac once it arrives,"

25 reported by Ljubo Bojanovic at a certain hour.

Page 11740

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the hour.

2 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, would you please explain to us what this note is

4 about.

5 A. Well, let me say first that this is not in my handwriting. And

6 once again this proves on the 16th I was in the barracks and somebody gave

7 me this information. Most likely this had to do with the fact that this

8 company of the 16th Motorised Brigade arrived in a certain area, and that

9 the vehicle had broken down. So my message was when this vehicle arrives,

10 finally, it should go to the repair workshop. So this is not my

11 handwriting. I don't know who conveyed this.

12 Q. According to this note, you are reporting that once this vehicle

13 from Banja Luka arrives it should go to the school in Orahovac. So this

14 was a message arriving from somebody?

15 A. Yes. I conveyed this message, that this vehicle had broken down.

16 And then I reported to the duty operations officer that once the vehicle

17 arrives it should go to Orahovac. And he wrote that down, and this was

18 probably reported to the command and then further on.

19 Q. Thank you. We have just one more relevant page from the notebook

20 of the duty operations officer. This is an exhibit P133, because this

21 notebook is split into two exhibits, ERN number 03089372, the English

22 version. And the B/C/S version is 02935777.

23 Mr. Bojanovic, let us take a look at this. These are the notes of

24 the duty operations officer on the 18th of July. It says here: "The duty

25 officer at the forward command post, Dusko Vukotic, according to the plan,

Page 11741

1 Ljubo Bojanovic is going."

2 A. Yes, between the lines. This means that Dusko Vukotic was

3 supposed to be at the command post and I was to go instead of him to take

4 that company to sweep the terrain. Because at the forward command post we

5 either had the commander or the chief of staff and there was no need to

6 have the duty operations officer there. Therefore, I could have performed

7 other duties at the task. This is not added here.

8 Q. So this note of the duty operations officer, does it reflect the

9 actual message? Was that the message that Ljubo Bojanovic was to go?

10 A. Yes. That was the message, that I was to go instead of Dusko

11 Vukotic. And I definitely went and performed those tasks.

12 Q. Does that mean, Mr. Bojanovic, that the duty of the duty

13 operations officer is simply to record what is ordered?

14 A. Yes, that's correct. The duty officer couldn't tell me the

15 reasons why I was supposed to go there. He just told me: You have to go

16 there. And it is possible that even I, myself, didn't know the reasons

17 for that until I reached the forward command post.

18 Q. Thank you. Let us just take a look to see whether your name is

19 mentioned in intercepts.

20 MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] For your sake, Your Honours, this

21 is P295, A and B, from the collection of intercepts near Sanac [as

22 interpreted] and Konoj [phoen] -- near Okresanica and Konoj.

23 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, according to the information received from the OTP

24 and based on the testimony of witnesses who testified here, on the 24th of

25 July, 1995, there was a conversation taking place which was intercepted.

Page 11742

1 So on the 24th of July at 0640 hours, the participants of this

2 conversation were General Krstic and Major Bojanovic, the duty officer.

3 This is how the conversation transpired:

4 "Krstic: Is everything all right?"

5 "Bojanovic: Well, there were some attacks last night on the road

6 from the back, mainly without casualties. Six Turks were captured.

7 "Krstic: Excellent. Great job. Where are they?

8 "Bojanovic: Hello?

9 "Krstic: Yes, yes.

10 "Bojanovic: We have interruptions.

11 "Krstic: Where are they?

12 "Bojanovic: Well, some of them -- I hear the detention facility's

13 full. There are more than 30 of them."

14 I wanted to ask you, Mr. Bojanovic, do you remember having this

15 conversation?

16 A. I know that I was the duty officer on the 23rd and 24th, so it is

17 possible that this was me and it was also possible that this was my

18 assistant because this was taking place at 6.40 in the morning. So it is

19 possible that he was substituting me. But again, I -- it could have been

20 me who was speaking to General Krstic.

21 Q. All right. In that case, let me ask you this: Do you remember

22 that on the 24th there were some prisoners in the Zvornik Brigade?

23 A. I was reported through communications department that there were

24 some prisoners, that there was six of them. Later on the security organs

25 and military police put them in our detention facility. And we already

Page 11743

1 had some prisoners from before there. They were used for exchanges

2 because the other side had our prisoners. So later on all of them were

3 taken to Batkovici to be exchanged.

4 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, were you asked by investigators in Banja Luka about

5 this intercept?

6 A. Yes, and I gave them the same answer.

7 Q. On that occasion did you also draw a sketch of the location where

8 the prisoners were?

9 A. I drew a sketch of the ground floor at the headquarters, the

10 command, where the detention facility was, pursuant to the request of the

11 investigators. I also drew a sketch of the upper floor of the brigade

12 headquarters where the office of the duty operations officer was.

13 Q. Could you please briefly tell us where was the detention facility

14 and where was the office of the duty operations officer.

15 A. Based on my sketch one could see that the detention facility was

16 across the hall from the dining room, cafeteria. That facility had in the

17 past been used for our soldiers who had some discipline transgressions or

18 had deserted and so on. And at that time it was used as a detention

19 facility for the prisoners, soldiers, from their forces. From my office,

20 one couldn't see that detention facility. Nobody from the upper floor

21 could see the detention facility.

22 Q. Then how come -- how is, Mr. Bojanovic, that you knew that there

23 were over 30 prisoners and that the detention facility was full?

24 A. Well, I personally avoided going and seeing the prisoners, but it

25 must be that the commander of the detention facility informed me as the

Page 11744

1 duty operations officer about the number of prisoners. The people from

2 logistics also knew this number because they had to provide the

3 accommodation and the food.

4 Q. So this was on the 24th of July?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what happened with these prisoners, do you know?

7 A. As I heard later, all of them were taken to Batkovici to be

8 exchanged. I'm not sure; that's what I heard. I wish it were like that.

9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bojanovic. I will have just two more questions and

10 then we can conclude. How long did you stay in the army?

11 A. After the combat ceased, after the Dayton Accords were signed, I

12 was able to return to the school. I was offered the position of a

13 principal, but due to the years of service I needed in order to retire, I

14 remained with the Army of Republika Srpska and I kept the rank of major.

15 Q. Have you left active service?

16 A. Yes, I have. And my pension hasn't been regulated yet. I left

17 service on the 31st of December, 1999, pursuant to the decision of

18 Minister Miluvanovic [phoen].

19 Q. Before the war and after the war, did you have any friends who

20 were Muslims?

21 A. In my neighbourhood there were mostly Muslims living. I went to

22 school with them, we grew up together, and we had very good relations. We

23 were on very good terms. And when these stupid conflicts arose, I thought

24 that all of it would be over in 10 to 15 days. I had no idea it would go

25 on for four years. I had very many Muslim friends, good friends. Also

Page 11745

1 when I was at the military academy, I had many friends who were Muslims or

2 Albanians. We in Zvornik grew up in a multi-ethnic environment, so we

3 never differentiated between the members of various ethnic groups.

4 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, after the war have you heard from your Muslim

5 friends or neighbours, acquaintances, anything negative about Dragan

6 Jokic? I'm asking you this while you're still under oath.

7 A. I never heard anything bad about him. There were many nice young

8 men in that neighbourhood, and I saw many of them who knew Jokic. And I

9 never heard from them anything bad about Mr. Jokic.

10 Q. Are you to be blamed for the fact that Dragan Jokic went to the

11 academy and became a soldier?

12 A. Yes, partially I am to be blamed. But he didn't have to follow my

13 advice. When I was at the academy, the rule was that when you went home

14 for leave you had to wear a uniform. So he was able to see me at home in

15 my uniform and always used to comment on how good I looked in that uniform

16 and that this is what prompted him to join the profession.

17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bojanovic, I have no further questions.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

19 Mr. Karnavas, do you have any questions to put to this witness?

20 MR. KARNAVAS: I do, Your Honour, I do.

21 JUDGE LIU: How many?

22 MR. KARNAVAS: I think -- I think I might be able to finish within

23 the five-minute period we have left, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, very good.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Karnavas:

Page 11746

1 Q. Mr. Bojanovic, I just have a few questions with respect to Witness

2 130, that's the individual we have been speaking about in closed session.

3 Okay? So we will be referring to him as 130 because he is protected.

4 Okay?

5 A. Okay.

6 Q. All right. Now, according to Witness 130 he states -- he stated

7 to the Prosecution when he gave a statement to them on May 23rd, 2004,

8 that on July 13th, 1995, you were the operation duty officer, and on that

9 particular day you ordered him to escort a convoy to Bratunac. My

10 question is very simple: Is that a truthful comment, truthful statement,

11 from Witness 130?

12 A. That is far from the truth. I told you about my activities on the

13 13th, what I did. So in that case, I couldn't have -- first of all, as a

14 duty operations officer I couldn't issue any orders to him, if that answer

15 is satisfactory to you.

16 Q. All right. But on that particular day, July 13th, were you the

17 duty operations officer, yes or no?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Now, we're going to go to July 15th. Same witness, Witness 130,

20 again in his statement, May 23rd, 2004, he said that -- and this was --

21 you were asked about this but I want to go into it in a more concrete

22 fashion. He stated to the Prosecution that you were surprised to see him

23 on that particular day, and that you had asked him: How come you're not

24 with the security organ in Petkovci where they were carrying out

25 executions?

Page 11747

1 Concretely, is this a truthful statement from Witness 130, who is

2 now trying to implicate you of having knowledge of and perhaps even

3 participating in those events?

4 A. If you need a more detailed answer, I will repeat what I told the

5 Defence [as interpreted] lawyers. I didn't have any encounters as such

6 because I couldn't have been in two places at the same time.

7 Q. So is it a truthful statement or is Witness 130 being untruthful?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

9 MS. ISSA: Your Honour, first of all a witness cannot comment on

10 the veracity of another witness. I don't think that form of the question

11 is proper. And secondly, I think the witness has already answered the

12 question. I don't -- it doesn't need an answer. It doesn't need to be

13 repeated.

14 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think the second objection stands. I believe

15 the witness already answered the question.

16 MR. KARNAVAS: Very well.

17 Q. Now, he stated that on that particular day, July 15, again you

18 were the operation duty officer, although later on in another interview he

19 wasn't quite sure. On that particular day, July 15th, were you the duty

20 operation officer, yes or no, just concretely?

21 A. No, no --

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Karnavas, this question has been asked and

23 answered.

24 MR. KARNAVAS: I understand, Your Honour. I understand. But

25 we're going to hear from Witness 130 and I'm already setting my eye sights

Page 11748

1 on him.

2 Q. Now, on July 15th, 1995, according to Witness 130, again having

3 told this to the Prosecutors having been questioned on one of the many

4 occasions, indicated that you saw Beara, Colonel Beara speaking with

5 Mr. Jokic. Did you see this? Again, he stated that on that particular

6 day you were also the duty operation officer.

7 A. According to what he said, it turns out that I was on duty every

8 day and that I was in constant contact with the security officers. I

9 think he said what suited him, and I am saying what -- what I am saying is

10 the truth and I am speaking it under oath. I didn't see Colonel Beara, I

11 repeat that, (Redacted) in that period.

12 (Redacted).

13 Now, we also indicated, he also indicated that you passed on an

14 order to him regarding sanitation, an order that -- a conversation that

15 had taken place between you and Mr. Deronjic, who was the head of the SDS

16 in Bratunac. Did this ever occur?

17 A. I know Mr. Deronjic only from the trials which were conducted

18 here, but I never saw him in my life.

19 Q. All right. But did you have a conversation with Mr. Deronjic

20 about sanitation and then have a conversation with Witness 130, conveying

21 to him information about sanitation, asanacija?

22 A. Believe me, I'm shocked by these statements. I don't know

23 Deronjic. I'm not -- asanacija or restoration of the terrain is not

24 something that's in my domain, and I don't know what this witness said.

25 I'm sorry, I'm making mistakes.

Page 11749

1 Q. Okay. Just one final question. You were questioned on 18th

2 September, 2001, and the gentleman we've been speaking about has given

3 numerous statements, and this one, the one I'm referring to, was back on

4 the 23rd of May, 2004. My question is very simple: Since the Prosecution

5 learned this information from Witness 130, that is May 2004, have they by

6 any chance visited you or requested to meet with you to go over this

7 information to see whether Witness 130 was providing them with true,

8 accurate, and complete information?

9 A. Since the conclusion of the combat operations, no one sought

10 anything other than this request for me to go to Banja Luka to speak to

11 Mr. Manning. Other than that, neither side got in touch with me, because

12 I wouldn't have anything to tell them.

13 Q. Again, let me be very concrete. Witness 130 as late as May 2004

14 has implicated you in these atrocities. And my question is: Did anyone

15 from OT -- from the Office of the Prosecution contact you to see whether

16 you would be willing to comment on Witness 130's information? In other

17 words to get the other side of the story, verify?

18 A. I repeat once again, none of the Prosecution staff got in touch

19 with me.

20 Q. And had they gotten in touch with you, would you have been willing

21 to meet with them and discuss these matters with them?

22 A. Of course I would agree to meet with them, and it would have been

23 good to apply as a witness. It would have probably done some good to

24 Witness 130 as well.

25 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Bojanovic. I appreciate your candor. I

Page 11750

1 have no further questions.

2 A. You're welcome.

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think it's time for a recess for today. So

4 the hearing is adjourned for today.

5 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.

6 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we go into private session for just one

7 second?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to private session, please.

9 [Private session]

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24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

25 at 1.51 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

Page 11751

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