International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

  1. 1 Friday, 25th July 1997

    2 (10.00 am)

    3 Mr. Simon Leach (continued)

    4 Examined by Mr. Hayman

    5 JUDGE JORDA: We can now resume our hearing. Usher, have

    6 the accused brought in, please.

    7 (Accused enters court)

    8 JUDGE JORDA: First, I would like to be sure that the

    9 interpreters are ready. First of all, I would like to

    10 ask whether everybody hears me. Mr. Blaskic, do you

    11 hear me?

    12 GENERAL BLASKIC: Good morning, your Honour,

    13 Mr. President. I hear you well.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Do the Defence hear, my assistants, my

    15 colleagues hear me? So we can begin at the point where

    16 we left off, that is the examination was completed and

    17 I think we now have to begin the cross-examination of

    18 the Prosecutor's witness. Mr. Prosecutor, do you have a

    19 comment you would like to make.

    20 MR. HARMON: Yes. Mr. President, just before we begin with

    21 Mr. Leach, I have copies in French of Prosecutor's

    22 Exhibit 79. They were not available when they were

    23 tendered. I have copies for the court. At this point

    24 I would like to offer them.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you very much. Perhaps we could have

  2. 1 your witness brought in. Mr. Harmon, before the

    2 cross-examination begins, it will be Mr. Nobilo or

    3 Mr. Hayman? It's Mr. Hayman.

    4 (Documents handed).

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Perhaps the usher could have the

    6 witness brought in.

    7 (Witness enters court).

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Simon Leach, good morning. Do you hear

    9 me now, Mr. Leach?

    10 A. Yes, I do, Mr. President.

    11 Q. All right. You hear me. Fine. Without any further

    12 delay we can go forward. Mr. Hayman, you can begin?

    13 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, your Honour and good morning, your

    14 Honours, counsel and Mr. Leach.

    15 A. Morning.

    16 Q. You are the lead investigator in this matter for the

    17 office of the Tribunal of the Prosecutor; is that

    18 correct?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. How long have you held that position as lead

    21 investigator?

    22 A. I came to the Office of the Prosecutor in October 1994,

    23 actually took up the position mid-November 1994.

    24 Q. So you held that position for roughly a year before the

    25 indictment was sought and obtained?

  3. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. And you've held it at all times since?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. As the lead investigator are you familiar with the

    5 status of the investigation?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Are you the custodian of the physical evidence in the

    8 possession of the office of the Tribunal Prosecutor?

    9 A. No. There's an evidence unit, which takes possession of

    10 any articles that are taken by any investigator.

    11 Within any investigative team there are large numbers of

    12 investigative teams. So the evidence of the custodian

    13 is outside the investigative unit.

    14 Q. Would you and other investigators working under you

    15 check evidence with the custodian in essence?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. So you would direct what goes into that vault or secure

    18 location?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. How many investigators, investigative assistants or

    21 analysts do you have on your team?

    22 A. Currently we have five investigators and then we have

    23 support staff of a research assistant, legal analysts,

    24 military analysts, possibly numbering 14 in total, 14 to

    25 16. Depending on what project is being dealt with

  4. 1 depends on which the team or departments within the

    2 Office of the Prosecutor one would go to for extra

    3 resources or assistance.

    4 Q. Does 14 or 15 include the five investigators or the

    5 other categories?

    6 A. No, that includes the five investigators.

    7 Q. Now you have testified that the HVO or HVO forces

    8 attacked various villages on 16th April and/or on

    9 subsequent days in 1993; correct?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Villages in the Lasva Valley?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Do you or does your office possess a single written

    14 order of Tihomir Blaskic directing any attack on a

    15 civilian target?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. What order is that?

    18 A. I don't have it in my possession with me at the moment.

    19 MR. HARMON: I am going to object, your Honour. I think

    20 this is outside the scope of the examination. Mr. Leach

    21 testified about the introduction of physical exhibits.

    22 He did not testify beyond that and he did not testify

    23 about other exhibits that were not tendered before this

    24 court. This is a wide-ranging cross-examination and

    25 I would object to it.

  5. 1 MR. HAYMAN: May I be heard?

    2 JUDGE JORDA: In general I would prefer that objections be

    3 made either by the Defence or the Prosecution in respect

    4 of very, very significant objectives. I said this to

    5 Mr. Hayman the other day. The cross-examination has

    6 only begun and this Trial Chamber has judges, no jury.

    7 They know how to distinguish what is part of the

    8 cross-examination and what is not part of that

    9 cross-examination. Therefore, Mr. Hayman, you can go

    10 on. Proceed, please, but try to remain within the

    11 context of what Mr. Simon Leach has said.

    12 MR. HAYMAN: Yes, your Honour. What written order of

    13 Tihomir Blaskic do you or your office possess that

    14 directs an attack on a civilian target?

    15 A. I don't have the order in my possession with me in front

    16 of me. Whether it would be classed as a document which

    17 directs an attack on a civilian target, I would have to

    18 read the text. It may direct an attack on or an

    19 offensive operation. Again the phrase "attack" may not

    20 be contained in the documents, but it may describe an

    21 offensive operation against a location rather than a

    22 direct: "Go and attack".

    23 Q. Does this order relate to 16th April 1993?

    24 A. No.

    25 Q. So there's no such order in your or your office's

  6. 1 possession with respect to the events surrounding 16th

    2 April 1993; is that correct?

    3 A. As regards to an attack, I'm not aware of an order of

    4 that kind, no.

    5 Q. But you do possess written orders from my client, do you

    6 not, directing that HVO soldiers not harm civilians and

    7 not harm civilian property, do you not?

    8 A. Yes, we do.

    9 Q. Yes.

    10 A. I believe you have copies of those.

    11 Q. Could Exhibit 29D be placed before the witness?

    12 (Handed.) This is a small map of the Kiseljak area; is

    13 that right?

    14 A. That's right, sir, yes.

    15 Q. You have identified various villages or hamlets within

    16 this area; correct?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. I would like to -- one moment. (Pause.) Can you

    19 estimate for us how far Gomionica is from Behrici? Do

    20 you see those two locations on the map? Perhaps you

    21 might put it on the ELMO, if that's convenient, and we

    22 can all follow along. Currently you are pointing to

    23 Behrici; is that right, or you are pointing in between

    24 the two villages I mentioned?

    25 A. In between the two.

  7. 1 Q. Would you estimate this is under 1,000 metres between

    2 the two?

    3 A. Around 1,000 metres, yes.

    4 Q. Where does one village or hamlet end and the next begin?

    5 A. In relation to both this location and other locations

    6 I have testified about it is sometimes quite difficult

    7 to say one village starts here, ends here, there's a

    8 break in the road and then the next village starts.

    9 The people who lived in the villages are the people who

    10 can be very specific about where a village starts and

    11 where a village ends and where the next village closest

    12 to it would start.

    13 Q. In the nature of, well, if you are on the other side of

    14 the creek you are in Gomionica but this side of the

    15 creek is Behrici, this kind of thing?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. There is no sign as you leave the village of Behrici,

    18 leaving the village of Behrici, is there?

    19 A. Absolutely not.

    20 Q. Because even on foot in a few minutes you are in the

    21 next hamlet?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Does that same observation apply, for example, with

    24 respect to Svinjarevo and Behrici and they are

    25 extraordinary close and approximate in territory?

  8. 1 A. In relation to Gomionica and Behrici, yes, because

    2 I know from being there as you walk between middle

    3 Gomionica and upper Gomionica, you have to take a track

    4 to the left to walk into Behrici. From recollection

    5 Svinjarevo would be in line of sight from Behrici but I

    6 don't think there is a defined track or pathway or road

    7 to walk from, for example, Behrici to Svinjarevo.

    8 Certainly I saw no indication of a road we could use.

    9 You would have to drive back down through Gomionica to

    10 the main highway, travel to Busovaca for 1.5 or 2 kms

    11 and then travel back to Svinjarevo.

    12 Q. You would go back to the road for 1,000 metres or two

    13 and then you would be in the Svinjarevo area?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. If there was gunfire in any of these villages stretching

    16 from Visnjica to Svinjarevo, would you likely hear that

    17 gunfire in other villages?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Now you described the distance from the Kiseljak

    20 Barracks to various villages in the Kiseljak

    21 Municipality; correct?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Is it your testimony that Tihomir Blaskic maintained a

    24 headquarters with a headquarters or command staff in the

    25 Kiseljak Barracks at any time material to this

  9. 1 indictment?

    2 A. My understanding is this, your Honours, that

    3 approximately May 1992 General Blaskic had recently

    4 arrived in Central Bosnia via Vienna and Tuzla and had

    5 responsibility for the HVO in Kiseljak. Subsequent to

    6 that he was given the post of commander of the Central

    7 Bosnia Operative Zone and established the main

    8 headquarters at the Hotel Vitez in Vitez and he had a

    9 subordinate brigade commander and brigade battalions at

    10 the HVO headquarters at the barracks in Kiseljak.

    11 I cannot say, I do not know whether or not he had a

    12 command staff at Kiseljak. It is my understanding that

    13 he most certainly had a command staff at Vitez.

    14 Q. So based on what you have just said your understanding

    15 then, to summarise, is at some point close in time to

    16 May 1992 if Tihomir Blaskic ever had a headquarters in

    17 Kiseljak Barracks, that headquarters moved to the Hotel

    18 Vitez; correct? It moved to the Vitez area. Let me

    19 state it that way.

    20 A. It's sometimes difficult for me to qualify and say that

    21 he didn't have command staff at Kiseljak. I'm aware

    22 that when he was involved in negotiations which were

    23 brokered, I think, by UNPROFOR and possibly the European

    24 Community monitoring mission, that those negotiations

    25 could and did take place in Kiseljak, and therefore

  10. 1 material I have seen would indicate that the General may

    2 be perceived to have had a headquarters at Kiseljak as

    3 well, but the General would know himself better than I .

    4 Q. Were those meetings and discussions in 1992 or 1993, if

    5 you know?

    6 A. There were certainly some in 1993, possibly 1992. I'm

    7 not sure.

    8 Q. So I take it you're not able to give any testimony on

    9 whether or not Tihomir Blaskic maintained a headquarters

    10 in Kiseljak Barracks at any time approximate to the

    11 dates of the so-called attacks you have described on the

    12 villages in the municipality of Kiseljak as set forth in

    13 Exhibit 29D; is that correct?

    14 A. What I would say is that he had a subordinate command at

    15 that location that was subordinate to him.

    16 Q. Is that different from having a command headquarters?

    17 A. I do not know.

    18 Q. Well, you have described what he had or what existed at

    19 Kiseljak Barracks as a headquarters of Tihomir

    20 Blaskic. Is it now your testimony that you don't know

    21 that?

    22 A. What I'm saying is that my understanding is that he had

    23 a headquarters at Kiseljak Barracks. He was there

    24 regularly. I think possibly because at the initial

    25 stages of UNPROFOR's arrival in Bosnia as a whole --

  11. 1 UNPROFOR initially -- the main Bosnia-Herzegovina

    2 command of UNPROFOR was stationed at Kiseljak.

    3 Q. When you use headquarters in that sense, what do you

    4 mean by headquarters? Do you mean a conference room

    5 where he was sometimes seen or do you mean something

    6 more than that?

    7 A. I meant something more than that.

    8 Q. Was there a command or headquarters staff at Kiseljak

    9 barracks?

    10 A. That's correct.

    11 Q. Now, you were asked by Mr. Harmon whether after 16th

    12 April 1993 the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina cut the

    13 main road between Kacuni and Bilalovic. Do you recall

    14 that question?

    15 A. Yes, I do, sir.

    16 Q. Your answer was "yes"?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. The main road you referred to is also the main road or

    19 artery between Kiseljak and Busovaca; correct?

    20 A. That's correct, yes.

    21 Q. And similarly to get from Kiseljak to Vitez, you would

    22 have to take that same road through Busovaca and on up

    23 to Vitez; correct?

    24 A. I'm not an expert of every road in Central Bosnia, your

    25 Honours. It is my understanding that both parties,

  12. 1 both the Armija of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO, would

    2 have the ability to travel from point A, for example, in

    3 Busovaca to point B in Kiseljak but using mountain

    4 routes, mountain paths, if they had a suitable 4-wheel

    5 drive vehicle, etc., but the main highway would be the

    6 one been Kiseljak and Busovaca, which could be cut off

    7 to normal routes by certain factions at certain

    8 locations.

    9 Q. Could Exhibit 29C, your Honour, be placed before the

    10 witness?

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Yes.

    12 Q. And perhaps D11 could be gathered so as to conserve time

    13 as the next exhibit to be shown to the witness.

    14 (Handed.) Could you put 29C on the ELMO and show us the

    15 road of which we are discussing?

    16 A. The road from?

    17 Q. The road from Vitez to Busovaca, then on to Kiseljak,

    18 although Kiseljak does not appear on this map.

    19 A. (Indicating).

    20 Q. Now you are indicating the town of Vitez?

    21 A. That's correct, yes.

    22 Q. Down towards Busovaca or Kiseljak, you would go in an

    23 easterly, south easterly direction. Would you trace

    24 that? Thank you. Then you move to the map to the

    25 left. You reach the Busovaca T-junction here?

  13. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. If you turn right, if you proceed down on the road, that

    3 takes us to Busovaca; correct?

    4 A. Yes. (Indicating).

    5 Q. Could you continue on down the road and tell us when you

    6 come to Kacuni,, please, if it's on this map.

    7 A. (Indicating).

    8 Q. You are now indicating the town of Kacuni?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. If you could continue on down to the end of the map

    11 showing this map going off the map, and then replace

    12 this map, if you would, with Exhibit 29D, if you still

    13 have it. Perhaps you could start with Kacuni, pick up

    14 the same road, in other words, with Kacuni on 29D. You

    15 are pointing to Kacuni now?

    16 A. Yes. (Indicating).

    17 Q. Continue down the route to the south, south-east, and

    18 let us know when you come to Bilalovic?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. How are you indicating Bilalovic on this map?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. If you continue down this road it takes you to Kiseljak;

    23 correct?

    24 A. That's correct, yes.

    25 Q. Are you aware that this road was cut at Kacuni in the

  14. 1 latter half of January 1997 by forces of the army of

    2 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

    3 A. The latter half of January, beginning of February, yes.

    4 Q. Approximately on or about January 23rd, 1993, wasn't

    5 this road cut in the area of Kacuni?

    6 A. That may be the exact date, but I would have to check

    7 records to confirm it.

    8 Q. That road was never reopened, that is it was never taken

    9 back by the HVO in the course of the entire war, is that

    10 correct?

    11 A. I'm not aware that that's the case, but you may be

    12 correct.

    13 Q. Are you aware that from January 23rd, 1993, the only way

    14 that Tihomir Blaskic could pass on this road was in a UN

    15 vehicle, being escorted for purposes of cease-fires or

    16 other means, which may have been occurring in Kiseljak?

    17 A. I'm aware that General Blaskic was often, as were

    18 members of the Bosnian army, in armoured personnel

    19 carriers, in order to get either side through certain

    20 checkpoints or confrontation lines as they developed.

    21 However, as I said earlier, that does not necessarily

    22 mean that one could not get from, for example, Vitez to

    23 Busovaca without avoiding a HB checkpoint and likewise

    24 one could possibly, using mountain roads, travel from

    25 Busovaca to Kiseljak. I am not an expert, but that is

  15. 1 what I'm led to believe was the case.

    2 Q. Do you have any information that you can provide this

    3 Tribunal that after January 23rd, 1993 Tihomir Blaskic

    4 ever travelled on the road we have been discussing

    5 through the Kacuni/Bilalovic portion, in any manner

    6 other than a UN vehicle? Do you have any other

    7 information to suggest to the contrary that you can

    8 provide this court?

    9 A. Not with me. I would have to check records but that

    10 may be -- you may be accurate that he did not without an

    11 UNPROFOR escort.

    12 Q. If you do, you don't have it in your mind; is that

    13 right?

    14 A. No, that's right.

    15 Q. Do you have any information you can provide this

    16 Tribunal that would confirm that Tihomir Blaskic ever

    17 trekked across the mountains after January 23rd, 1993 to

    18 try to get to Kiseljak from Vitez?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. May Exhibit D/11 be placed before the witness and if he

    21 could place it on the ELMO, please. I think you may

    22 have it. It is the excerpts from Lord Owen's book,

    23 "Balkan Odyssey". If you would open the package, turn

    24 to the last page and there is a map on the last page.

    25 If you would place that on the ELMO, that would be very

  16. 1 helpful?

    2 A. Page 363.

    3 Q. Correct. If the camera could zoom in on the Vitez and

    4 Kiseljak pockets, please. A little bit more, please.

    5 That's plenty. If you could move the map down a

    6 little, Mr. Leach. Yes, perfect. Mr. Leach, does this

    7 map illustrate the fact that this road, at least the

    8 portion between Kacuni and Bilalovic, was cut and was

    9 not held by the HVO? Do you see a gap between two

    10 shaded portions, one around Vitez and the other around

    11 Kiseljak?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And is this consistent with your understanding that

    14 there was, if you will, a Vitez enclave, a surrounded

    15 enclave, held by the HVO and similarly another

    16 surrounded enclave held by the HVO to the south-east in

    17 and around Kiseljak?

    18 A. That is what I would describe as enclaves. Whether

    19 this document was designed to show how people could

    20 travel on the roads, I'm not so sure that's an accurate

    21 portrayal how one could travel from A to B. Certainly

    22 I know that, for example, the city of Prozor, which is

    23 not on this map, to the south-west of Vitez and

    24 Kiseljak, that the HVO were building a road to connect

    25 Prozor over the mountains to Kiseljak. So, therefore,

  17. 1 there were attempts made as early as late 1992 to build

    2 roads to assist with communications.

    3 Q. Did any such road ever reach the Vitez pocket during a

    4 war, to your knowledge?

    5 A. Not that I'm aware of, no.

    6 Q. Thank you. Let me change the subject now and ask:

    7 you've discussed the existence and organisation of the

    8 Central Bosnia operative zone on the part of the HVO.

    9 I would like to ask you: do you know what or which

    10 corps or corpus of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    11 operated on the same territory that you have described

    12 as the middle Bosnia or Central Bosnia operative zone of

    13 the HVO?

    14 A. That was III Corps of the army of BiH.

    15 Q. Were there any other corps that you know of the army of

    16 BiH that also operated within this same geographic area?

    17 A. Yes. I think it is the I Corps, which was responsible

    18 for the Sarajevo area.

    19 Q. Or perhaps Disoko?

    20 A. Possibly, yes.

    21 Q. Do you know whether there was a VII Corps in Travnik?

    22 A. I'm only aware as far as corps, that there were only

    23 four in the Bosnian army. I Corps, Sarajevo. III

    24 Corps, base Zenica. II Corps, Tuzla and IV Corps in

    25 Mostar.

  18. 1 Q. You just said II Corps, Tuzla; III Corps Zenica; I Corps

    2 Sarajevo, possibly Disoko. So you are not aware of the

    3 VII Corps based in the Travnik area?

    4 A. No. As I say, as far as I know the Bosnian army only

    5 had four corps, not seven.

    6 Q. You are not familiar with the VI Corps based in the

    7 Fojnica area?

    8 A. VI Corps?

    9 Q. The VI Corps?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. Now you have testified that certain "attacks" occurred

    12 on certain dates. You have also shown us a number of

    13 photographs, many of which are disturbing, including

    14 photographs of damage or destroyed places of worship,

    15 particularly mosques or exclusively mosques. Is it

    16 your testimony that with respect to each location or

    17 village where you have show us a picture of a damaged or

    18 destroyed mosque, that that damage or destruction

    19 occurred on the date to which you have ascribed an HVO

    20 attack occurred?

    21 A. No, that's not my assertion. The damage to those

    22 mosques, apart from, I think, in Ahmici, where I think I

    23 am fairly accurate to say was on or about between 16th

    24 or 19th April, the damage to the other mosques occurred

    25 at dates which I don't know the timing of.

  19. 1 Q. When was the mosque in Busovaca damaged or destroyed; do

    2 you know?

    3 A. I do not know the dates.

    4 Q. Would you be surprised to learn that that mosque was

    5 damaged or destroyed in May of 1994, after the cease-fire

    6 between the HVO and the ABiH, after the Washington

    7 agreement and after the last date alleged in this

    8 indictment?

    9 A. I would, yes.

    10 Q. That would surprise you? Would you like to, and I'm

    11 sorry I don't have copies of this, your Honour, look at

    12 a Reuters news story, in which it is written -- this is

    13 dated June 20th, 1994. In fairness, your Honour, may

    14 I have a moment? I would like to show it to counsel,

    15 because I don't have copies of this. I am surprised by

    16 this testimony and I think in fairness I should show it

    17 to counsel before I ask the witness whether he's

    18 familiar with this information.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. I would like this document to be given

    20 to the Prosecutor as well. Mr. Harmon, you don't have

    21 it? Mr. Leach, you don't have it?

    22 A. No.

    23 MR. HARMON: No, your Honour.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Would you like to take a few moments to

    25 examine it?

  20. 1 MR. HARMON: Yes, your Honour.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, would you please give the

    3 Registrar the document, who will make a copy of it and

    4 then give it to the Prosecutor? Mr. Harmon, as soon as

    5 you have looked at it, as soon as you have it in your

    6 hands --

    7 MR. HAYMAN: We can come back to this, your Honour. We can

    8 have copies made. I can continue with some other

    9 questions and we can come back to it. That will be

    10 fine.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Proceed, please.

    12 MR. HAYMAN: You have described a number of events which you

    13 have stated occurred on April 16th or other dates in

    14 April or following months. Is it a fact that you

    15 yourself have no personal knowledge of any of these

    16 events?

    17 A. That's right. I was not there.

    18 Q. In fact in April, for example, of 1993, where were you?

    19 A. In the United Kingdom.

    20 Q. You were a police investigator, detective in the UK?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. So evidence that you testified about concerning events

    23 happening on particular days in 1993 and so forth is

    24 based on hearsay information that you have obtained from

    25 witness interviews or other documents, or from talking

  21. 1 to other people; is that right?

    2 A. That's right, your Honours, yes.

    3 Q. So you have no personal knowledge of any attack by an

    4 HVO soldier or force; is that correct?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. No personal knowledge of any detention of civilians?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. No personal knowledge of the particular dates on which

    9 any structure, whether mosque, residence or other, was

    10 damaged or destroyed?

    11 A. Correct.

    12 Q. No personal knowledge as to who the owners of any

    13 destroyed structures or residences were?

    14 A. Correct.

    15 Q. And perhaps apart from aggregate census data, no

    16 personal knowledge of the ethnicity or nationality of

    17 any such owners; correct?

    18 A. Correct.

    19 Q. You've made certain -- offered certain testimony

    20 concerning the ease of travel, particularly from the

    21 Hotel Vitez to surrounding areas as well as from the

    22 Kiseljak Barracks to surrounding areas. Would you

    23 agree that the ease of travel depends on the

    24 circumstances at the time, such as whether there exists

    25 a condition of peace time, or whether there exists a

  22. 1 condition of wartime or a state of war?

    2 A. Yes, I would. I would agree.

    3 Q. That is because in a state of war a vehicle -- it may

    4 not be safe to use a vehicle on a particular road or

    5 passageway; is that correct?

    6 A. That's correct, yes.

    7 Q. That could be due to facts, for example, the fact that a

    8 section of the road such as the road between Bilalovic

    9 and Kacuni was in the hands of a warring party?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Or it could be due to the fact that a section of road

    12 was exposed to sniper fire from the opposing party;

    13 correct?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Or it could be due to the fact that a road or perhaps a

    16 mountainside or hillside may have been mined, thereby

    17 rendering it unsafe for travel; is that correct?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Do you have any knowledge that on a particular date any

    20 of the roads or travels that you have described as being

    21 convenient and short were, in fact, possible during the

    22 war that was going on in connection with this case? Do

    23 you have any personal knowledge that on a particular

    24 date any of those roads or routes were, in fact, safe

    25 and passable?

  23. 1 A. Personal knowledge, no.

    2 Q. Do you know whether the HVO had any tanks or armoured

    3 vehicles at their disposal?

    4 A. I believe they may have, but I couldn't categorically

    5 state any factual figures on that at all.

    6 Q. Have you seen any pictures of General Blaskic arriving

    7 at a meeting and jumping out of his own armoured

    8 personnel carrier?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. If there was a UN-brokered meeting, he would arrive in a

    11 UN vehicle or UN armoured personnel carrier. Is that

    12 your general understanding?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. I think the document, your Honour, has been copied and

    15 I would ask that it be marked as the next Defence

    16 exhibit in order and provided to the witness. I would

    17 direct counsel to the second page, second sentence of

    18 the first full paragraph, which is the sentence I intend

    19 to draw the witness' attention to, the sentence

    20 beginning:

    21 "Last month ...".

    22 Do you have this article.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps the Tribunal could have a copy of

    24 this as well. (Handed.)

    25 MR. HAYMAN: Why don't I read, your Honour, the introductory

  24. 1 language, and that way we can obtain a translation?

    2 This exhibit, Mr. Leach, is titled "Croatia Waging War on

    3 History, June 20th, 1994.

    4 Text.

    5 “In the former Yugoslavia”, writes Robert Fisk,

    6 “whole cultures are being obliterated".

    7 This is a Reuters' story.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Leach, would you please put the document

    9 on the ELMO, so that the interpreters can have their

    10 work made easier. Thank you.

    11 MR. HAYMAN: The specific by line -- if you would show that

    12 -- is the ELMO on, may I enquire? Mr. Leach, could you

    13 pull down the article so we can see the top and the

    14 by-line? You see the by-line is June 20th, 1994.

    15 Would you agree?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Now, turning the page, if you turn that page over to the

    18 back page of that same page, assuming your copy is a

    19 two-sided copy, and place the document again on the

    20 ELMO, so that the second -- the first full paragraph, at

    21 least the top portion, is visible. Let me read the

    22 first two sentences of that paragraph:

    23 "Nor has the destruction ended. In April Croat

    24 gunmen destroyed the mosque at Livno. Last month

    25 Croatian Bosnian forces demolished the minaret of the

  25. 1 Busovaca mosque".

    2 Then it continues as to the destruction of a

    3 Catholic church. Would you agree that the reference

    4 "last month" to the destruction of the Busovaca mosque

    5 is a reference to the month prior to June 1994, namely

    6 May 1994?

    7 A. It appears to be so, yes, sir.

    8 Q. Is that surprising to you?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Because, if true, then that mosque was destroyed after

    11 the period charged in this indictment; correct?

    12 A. That's correct.

    13 Q. If Exhibit 53, your Honour, could be placed -- I believe

    14 it needs to be placed on the easel. This should be an

    15 aerial photograph.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Before we talk about 53, does this have to be

    17 put into the record as well? What will the number be?

    18 Mr. Hayman or Mr. Dubuisson, I'm talking about the

    19 Reuters' despatch.

    20 THE REGISTRAR: It is D/12.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: First I wanted to know whether Mr. Hayman

    22 wanted it to be put in the record. Mr. Hayman?

    23 MR. HAYMAN: Your Honour, first of all, the second page,

    24 I think, is extraneous and can be removed. I think the

    25 article appears in toto in the first page. So the

  26. 1 second page is not pertinent. It can be marked for

    2 identification. I don't feel strongly that it be

    3 admitted but I don't oppose its admission, if the other

    4 side would like it admitted, your Honour, but I would

    5 like it marked and made a part of the record.

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon?

    7 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry, your Honour. I didn't hear. I

    8 was in conversation with my colleague.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: I had a very simple question. I was asking

    10 for your approval for this to be put in as an exhibit

    11 under number D/12, 13? 12. The two-sided page, not

    12 the second page but the two-sided copy of the Reuters'

    13 despatch.

    14 MR. HARMON: Okay.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. It will be D/12. Proceed

    16 please, Mr. Hayman.

    17 MR. HAYMAN: The next exhibit I would like to work with is

    18 53, which is an aerial photograph. Perhaps that could

    19 be retrieved. Could you point out for us on this map,

    20 for example, the markings for Ahmici, Santici.

    21 I believe is Nadioci on this map? It is difficult for

    22 me to see from this distance?

    23 A. Your Honours, on this map Ahmici is here.

    24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me. I have to consult my

  27. 1 colleagues. (Pause.) Thank you. Please proceed.

    2 MR. HAYMAN: Yes, your Honour. Mr. Leach, could you point

    3 out the village of Nadioci? Is a particular location

    4 marked as Nadioci on this map?

    5 A. The weekend houses are marked.

    6 Q. The village proper lies on the other side of the road to

    7 the north?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Then where have you marked the village of Ahmici?

    10 A. (Indicating).

    11 Q. Again could you show us where the village of Nadioci

    12 ends and where the village of Ahmici begins?

    13 A. Again without being a local I would suggest that Ahmici

    14 ends below the pointer. Nadioci would begin above the

    15 pointer.

    16 Q. The fact is the structures run together and they are

    17 quite approximate; correct?

    18 A. If you are indicating these houses here as being part of

    19 Ahmici or Nadioci, I just couldn't say.

    20 Q. Well, again, as in the case of the villages we were

    21 discussing to the north, north west of Kiseljak, there

    22 are no signs indicating where one village ends and the

    23 next begins; correct?

    24 A. No, there are not, your Honours.

    25 Q. The houses are pretty much sprinkled across the

  28. 1 hillside?

    2 A. There are houses or farms sprinkled on the hillside, but

    3 I think, as in Gomionica and Behrici, you can

    4 distinguish one village from another. I think it would

    5 be more difficult to distinguish, for example, on this

    6 photograph where Ahmici ends and Santici begins, but for

    7 Ahmici and Nadioci, there is a distinct break in the

    8 ground that would assist in identifying one village from

    9 the other.

    10 Q. There is a ravine or some kind of depression?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. That's not true or is it true with respect to Ahmici and

    13 I believe it's Pirici?

    14 A. I mean Pirici is a distinct smaller hamlet which is on

    15 the hill above Santici and Ahmici.

    16 Q. Is that less than 1,000 metres from either one of those

    17 villages?

    18 A. Around 1,000 metres would be accurate, your Honour.

    19 Q. Are you familiar with the method of organising

    20 governmental units for purpose of self-governance in

    21 Bosnia under the municipal level or opstina level, the

    22 next level down of government organisation?

    23 A. Limited knowledge. I'm not an expert at all.

    24 Q. If you know, would you agree that these four villages in

    25 this area, Nadioci, Ahmici, Pirici and Santici were all

  29. 1 part of one local community --

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, the witness said he was not an

    3 expert. I don't see the point of this question if you

    4 knew that.

    5 MR. HAYMAN: Not being an expert -- with all due respect,

    6 your Honour, not being an expert doesn't mean he does

    7 not have any knowledge of it. I do not know if he has

    8 any knowledge of it. If he has none, he can certainly

    9 say: "I do not know".

    10 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Answer, Mr. Leach.

    11 MR. HAYMAN: Do you know whether these four villages were

    12 part of a single community for government or

    13 self-government purposes?

    14 A. I'm not sure that they were a single community as

    15 regards if one was -- if one was sat here as a Bosnian

    16 Muslim. As regards a Bosnian Croat, I seem to

    17 understand that the local HVO forces were under one

    18 command, which would include Nadioci, Pirici, Santici

    19 and Ahmici. How that mirrored for the Bosnian forces,

    20 I think that was given, because, for example, there were

    21 limited Muslims living in Nadioci. There was certainly

    22 a local group of the Muslims for the community of Ahmici

    23 that would have discussed civil defence, whereas for the

    24 HVO, from my understanding, it covered a larger area,

    25 which would be Nadioci down through Ahmici, Pirici and

  30. 1 Santici.

    2 Q. One moment, your Honour. (Pause.)

    3 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. Leach, I'm referring to a system of

    4 self-governance as it existed before the war. Do you

    5 have any knowledge of that scheme with respect to these

    6 four villages?

    7 A. No, your Honours, I don't.

    8 Q. Thank you. May I approach, your Honour, and point out

    9 some terrain on the map for my next question? First

    10 I would like to point out the main road from Vitez

    11 towards the Busovaca T-junction and ask you if, in fact,

    12 I'm accurately identifying the main road (indicating)?

    13 A. That's accurate, your Honours, yes.

    14 Q. Would you agree that the road lies in a valley

    15 (indicating)?

    16 A. Yes, it does.

    17 Q. And to the south of the valley there are steep hills

    18 raising?

    19 A. That's correct.

    20 Q. And similarly there are hills to the north of the

    21 valley?

    22 A. That's correct.

    23 Q. Now the villages we have been discussing -- I'm sorry.

    24 Let's take a moment and ... thank you, Mr. Dubuisson.

    25 The villages we have been discussing, they generally

  31. 1 line the hillsides to the north of the valley which

    2 contains both the road and the river. Would you agree

    3 the hillside which I'm indicating now to the north?

    4 A. For example, the village of Santici and a sizeable

    5 portion of Ahmici lie next to the road. As you drive

    6 along the road, if a house was within 15, 20 metres of

    7 that road, with a garden in front of it, that would be

    8 part of the village. So a portion of the village, for

    9 example, Santici, the majority of that village is on

    10 flat ground. For example, Ahmici, because it's a

    11 village with perhaps three distinct area, some of it is

    12 on flat ground and then the upper part of the village is

    13 on high ground. The village of Pirici is solely on

    14 high ground.

    15 Q. So, to clarify then, with respect to Santici, Ahmici and

    16 Nadioci, some of the houses or structures in those

    17 villages run all the way down to the road; correct?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Now do you know that, in fact, this road was the subject

    20 of extreme and bitter fighting between Croat and Muslim

    21 forces in this area in, for example, late 1993 and early

    22 1994?

    23 A. That's correct, your Honours, it was.

    24 Q. In fact, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina at one point cut

    25 this road as well, creating two enclaves within the

  32. 1 Vitez enclave; correct?

    2 A. I wasn't aware of that.

    3 Q. You are not aware of that fact?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Do you know whether of the destroyed houses near the

    6 road, again do you know when that destruction occurred?

    7 A. I think some other witnesses will be able to tell which

    8 buildings were destroyed at what time. I don't --

    9 Q. But you cannot?

    10 A. I don't have personal knowledge of that, no.

    11 Q. Now, in taking photos of the destroyed homes and

    12 structures that you have helped document for us all, did

    13 you look for any fortification in the areas of any

    14 apparent conflicts? By fortification I mean trenches,

    15 bunkers, fox holes, that type of thing?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Where did you look? In and around which villages did

    18 you look for fortification?

    19 A. Our mission, when we were taking photography was limited

    20 to where we were allowed to travel. For example, there

    21 is a small location near to Pirici which, when I visited

    22 there, was being reinhabited by Bosnian Muslims. They

    23 described to me that the village had been attacked or

    24 that location had been attacked by the HVO on 16th

    25 April, and then they showed me some trenches and what

  33. 1 appeared to be a command post, which would link one

    2 trench system to another and indicated that that was HVO

    3 trench positions, which was just below a ridge line, but

    4 we were very restricted in our ability to investigate

    5 any trench positions. Particularly I distinctly

    6 remember seeing mines at the side of the road in the

    7 grass in that location. It is quite surprising to see

    8 people rebuilding their homes when there are mines next

    9 to the house.

    10 Q. Did you take any pictures of any fortification?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Did you look for any fortification that would indicate

    13 defensive fortification approximate to these villages,

    14 not a confrontation line later in the war, but defensive

    15 fortification approximate to Pirici, Ahmici and Santici

    16 and so forth?

    17 A. I'm not a soldier so I wouldn't know. If I saw a

    18 trench, I would take a photograph, if possible, of a

    19 trench or associated structure, but I'm simply not

    20 qualified to say when that structure was built, when the

    21 trench was dug, whether it was dug for the purposes of

    22 defence, whether it was dug for the purposes of offence,

    23 whether it was -- whether that positioning of that

    24 trench could serve both purposes. I'm just not a

    25 military man.

  34. 1 Q. Have any of those photographs been provided to the

    2 Defence, if you know?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. I'll reserve that point, your Honour, for a later

    5 hearing. Perhaps, your Honour, while I ask some more

    6 questions about this exhibit, Mr. Dubuisson could assist

    7 and see if he can locate the aerial photograph of the

    8 town of Vitez.

    9 With respect to these maps, is this exhibit one of

    10 the maps provided by the UK Ministry of Defence?

    11 A. Yes, it is, sir.

    12 Q. Now you gave various dates on which you believed these

    13 photographs were taken. Do you know those dates from

    14 your own personal knowledge?

    15 A. Not from my personal knowledge, no.

    16 Q. They have been provided to you by someone else?

    17 A. Yes, they have.

    18 Q. Would you agree that it's very important that the

    19 Tribunal know the date of these photographs?

    20 A. The -- yes.

    21 Q. Because if they were taken on a different date before or

    22 after the war, they may reflect the existence of

    23 structures or the non-existence of structures and be

    24 misleading. Would you agree with that?

    25 A. Yes.

  35. 1 Q. Do you know were these maps obtained from the Ministry

    2 of Defence for use for this purpose, to be used and

    3 presented as evidence in the trial?

    4 A. We asked for these maps, those photographs. What use

    5 they would be put to at the time, certainly for trial

    6 ... they have since been put to use during trial.

    7 Whether that was the initial objective, no.

    8 Q. Do you know whether any of these aerial photographs were

    9 shown to the Defence prior to being presented and moved

    10 into evidence at the trial?

    11 A. I recall showing yourself one some months ago.

    12 Q. One aerial photograph?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Any of the others?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. You believe they were not shown to the Defence prior to

    17 being moved for admission?

    18 A. That's correct.

    19 Q. I have a few more questions about this subject and I'm

    20 not asking you to reveal any sensitive or confidential

    21 data, so please answer carefully. Without telling us

    22 which, do you know whether these photographs were taken

    23 as a result of over flight photography or satellite

    24 photography and I'm not asking for you to specify but

    25 I'm asking you do you know whether it was one or the

  36. 1 other?

    2 MR. HARMON: I'm going to object, your Honour. I think

    3 that question is improper.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Just a moment, please. First, I would like

    5 Mr. Hayman to finish his question and then I can deal

    6 with your objection. Have you completed -- first of

    7 all I would like to ask you, Mr. Hayman, whether you have

    8 completed your question?

    9 MR. HAYMAN: Yes.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon?

    11 MR. HARMON: I would object, your Honour, to the means in

    12 which this photograph was taken. I don't believe that

    13 is a proper question to be asked.

    14 MR. HAYMAN: I can explain my purpose.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: What was your purpose, Mr. Hayman, the reasons

    16 you have?

    17 MR. HAYMAN: We've heard, for example, that at least there's

    18 a possibility the mosque in Busovaca was not destroyed

    19 until May of 1994. If these photographs were taken as

    20 part of a regular series, there may be other maps,

    21 perhaps at monthly intervals or quarterly intervals,

    22 that could help us learn, all of us when particular

    23 structures were destroyed and so forth. That's more

    24 likely to be the case if they are satellite photos taken

    25 during regular over flights of the region. On the

  37. 1 other hand, if a special airplane, aerial photography

    2 was undertaken, a one-time mission, then that

    3 possibility would not exist. I'm simply trying to

    4 identify the relevant issues under Rule 70. I'm not

    5 trying to extract any sensitive information from this

    6 witness. I'm not asking him whether it was satellite

    7 or over flight. I'm just asking him whether he knows.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, as Rule 70, you know that you can

    9 only reveal the source with the consent of the person or

    10 entity who supplied them to you. I suppose you have

    11 that.

    12 MR. HARMON: That's correct, your Honour. That is one of

    13 the bases of my objections. The other is, your Honour,

    14 these photographs have been tendered for purposes of

    15 showing various relationships of villages and the

    16 like. Mr. Leach has testified that these exhibits

    17 accurately depict the relationships and the physical

    18 characteristics as in each of these exhibits. The

    19 provider has not authorised us to reveal the nature of

    20 the source of these photographs, how they were taken.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, but, Mr. Harmon, you put me into somewhat

    22 of a paradoxical situation. You are showing these

    23 maps. You have the consent of the person or entities

    24 who provided them. You have just said that.

    25 MR. HARMON: That's right, your Honour.

  38. 1 JUDGE JORDA: Therefore, it's obvious that you are in a

    2 situation where the Defence is using them and it seems

    3 in order to use them he needs to ask a certain number of

    4 questions. Now if your investigator and witness

    5 considers that he cannot answer some of the questions,

    6 he just will not answer and the Tribunal will take the

    7 consequences from that, which it considers appropriate

    8 to take. You took the initiative of showing these

    9 maps. You remember that the Defence raised objections

    10 of principle and I can also say to the Defence that it's

    11 using these maps. Therefore some of the objections

    12 raised by the Defence can no longer be made. However,

    13 since the maps are there, they were accepted as evidence

    14 and the Tribunal must be sure that they are covered by

    15 Rule 70B, and my conclusion is that if the investigator

    16 cannot answer some of the questions, then he will not

    17 answer. All of this will be put in the transcript, and

    18 the Tribunal will draw the consequences that it has to

    19 draw from that. I think that you can now proceed,

    20 Mr. Hayman.

    21 MR. HAYMAN: We will simply take -- I take it, your Honour,

    22 to that question the witness declines to answer on

    23 grounds of Rule 70.

    24 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I think it's fair to say that the

    25 witness declines to answer that question because he is

  39. 1 not authorised by the provider to provide the answer to

    2 that question.

    3 MR. HAYMAN: That's fine. I just wanted --

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Well, you can't dictate the answer,

    5 Mr. Prosecutor. He knows what he's going to answer.

    6 Let the Presiding Judge ask the witness to answer the

    7 way he wants. It's not Mr. Leach's answer through

    8 Mr. Harmon. Mr. Hayman asked a question. Mr. Leach,

    9 would you like to answer the question? First of all,

    10 going back to Mr. Hayman, would you please repeat your

    11 question.

    12 MR. HAYMAN: Without telling us, Mr. Leach, whether this was

    13 satellite or aerial imagery, that's over flight imagery,

    14 can you tell us whether you know which of those

    15 categories was the source of this photography?

    16 A. I do not know.

    17 Q. You have no knowledge?

    18 THE INTERPRETER: Could you turn on your microphone,

    19 Mr. Leach?

    20 A. I have no knowledge.

    21 Q. You have told us also you have no personal knowledge of

    22 the dates on which this or any other aerial photograph

    23 were taken?

    24 A. The dates I have provided in my testimony were,

    25 I believe, the accurate dates.

  40. 1 Q. But they were provided to you by somebody else?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Are you able to identify that person to us or is that

    4 something you cannot do?

    5 A. I cannot do that.

    6 Q. May I enquire, your Honour, whether Mr. Dubuisson has

    7 located an aerial photograph of the town of Vitez? If

    8 he has, I would ask that it be placed on the easel. In

    9 terms of this Rule 70 question, your Honour, I suggest

    10 that it be reserved and it can be discussed at a future

    11 time convenient to the court, the potential implications

    12 of this type of situation. I don't feel any need to go

    13 into it further here.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: However, I would like to point out,

    15 Mr. Hayman, that you are now using this evidence.

    16 Therefore, you cannot at the same time challenge the

    17 principle of protection and use the evidence as part of

    18 your strategy. Therefore, if you desire at another

    19 point in the proceedings, if you wish to ask questions,

    20 the Tribunal will note the questions, but for the time

    21 being the Tribunal notes that you yourself are using

    22 this evidence for the Defence of your client. Are we

    23 agreed on that point?

    24 MR. HAYMAN: I have asked the witness about it, but I would

    25 also submit I should not be required to put all of my

  41. 1 eggs in one basket; in other words, I shouldn't be

    2 required to abstain from asking any questions in the

    3 hope the exhibit is excluded under Rule 70 and then if

    4 it is not, I have foregone any cross-examination.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: We did not understand one another. I don't

    6 think I expressed myself correctly. One way or another

    7 this evidence -- there are two questions that arise.

    8 There is a principle to know whether it is covered by

    9 Rule 70. On that point, since the day before

    10 yesterday, you made some comments. One way or another

    11 you have just repeated that. We have noted it. If

    12 you want to go back to what you said before, you can.

    13 But the second point is that apparently you need

    14 for the Defence of your client, you need to use this

    15 evidence. However, I am simply noting that. Now

    16 perhaps we can put the Vitez photo up, but even before

    17 we do that, perhaps we should take a break and resume at

    18 11.35. The court stands adjourned.

    19 (11.15 am)

    20 (Short break)

    21 (11.35 am)

    22 JUDGE JORDA: The session is resumed. Can we have the

    23 accused in, please?

    24 (Accused re-enters court)

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, do you think that you'll be

  42. 1 finished by 1 o'clock?

    2 MR. HAYMAN: I will be finished in ten minutes, your Honour.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Perfect. I ask this question so that we

    4 would know how much time would be needed, because the

    5 judges have some questions to ask as well, and we need

    6 it for the organisation of our work. Mr. Dubuisson,

    7 let's be sure that we have the proper maps being

    8 displayed. All right. Proceed please.

    9 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. Leach, we have here on the easel,

    10 Exhibit 45, an aerial photograph principally of the

    11 Vitez town area; is that correct?

    12 A. Yes, sir.

    13 Q. You previously testified that the Hotel Vitez lies in

    14 the valley floor; is that right?

    15 A. It's in the centre of Vitez. I do not know if I used

    16 the phrase "valley floor". I may have done.

    17 Q. Does the town of Vitez lie in the valley floor of the

    18 Lasva Valley?

    19 A. Yes, it does.

    20 Q. In fact, can you see -- is this the river flowing here?

    21 A. That appears to be the river, yes.

    22 Q. Now, I would like to direct your attention to the Hotel

    23 Vitez on this map and perhaps, if it's possible, your

    24 Honour, the camera can zoom in a bit, because I know

    25 this map is difficult to see from the distance at which

  43. 1 the court sits?

    2 JUDGE JORDA: I do not know whether the camera will be able

    3 to do it. It's trying to facilitate your work,

    4 Mr. Hayman. Now, Mr. Leach, can see the map and the

    5 judges can see it as well, as well as seeing the Hotel

    6 Vitez. I do not know if the camera can actually do all

    7 of that but let's try. Go ahead fine.

    8 MR. HAYMAN: Would you agree the location mark A, Hotel

    9 Vitez, is the Hotel Vitez?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Would you agree that looking across in this manner

    12 towards the river, that that's roughly a northerly

    13 direction?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Now do you know where the front door of the Hotel Vitez

    16 is?

    17 A. I would describe the front door as being the main

    18 entrance, which is on the main road.

    19 Q. The main road being this road?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Running in an east-west direction?

    22 A. And there's a small lawn with some trees in front of it

    23 and it has, say, a glass domed canopy in front of the

    24 door.

    25 Q. When you step in front of the Hotel Vitez and look

  44. 1 across the road, what do you see, what I'm pointing at

    2 with this pen?

    3 A. I'm not sure if I can see -- there's a building

    4 opposite.

    5 Q. It's a gas station, isn't it?

    6 A. The gas station is further down the road to the south --

    7 to the west possibly. I think opposite the Hotel Vitez

    8 may be the municipal buildings.

    9 Q. Are there a number of buildings across the street to the

    10 north?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. So when you look out from the front of the hotel, you

    13 see those buildings?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Now if you look to the right in an easterly direction

    16 from the front of the hotel, you see another building,

    17 do you not?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. That is the building marked C on this map?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. That's the PTT building?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. How many floors is it?

    24 A. The PTT building?

    25 Q. Yes.

  45. 1 A. I am not sure, maybe two.

    2 Q. It is at least two or three floors, isn't it?

    3 A. Probably, yes.

    4 Q. Now if you look where my pen is, I'm showing an arc to

    5 the east and the north. Would you agree with a small

    6 path through the PTT building and the building

    7 immediately to the north, basically all you would see to

    8 the north and the east of the entrance to the Hotel

    9 Vitez are these other buildings; is that correct?

    10 A. From the ground floor?

    11 Q. From the ground level?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Now when you look -- if you were to look to the north,

    14 north west from the entrance of the Hotel Vitez, looking

    15 up the hill in the manner I'm indicating (indicating)

    16 what would you see up here or beyond?

    17 A. I wouldn't, first of all, describe that as a hill but

    18 you would see open ground.

    19 Q. You would see open ground?

    20 A. The hill is probably 2 kms further away.

    21 Q. Are any of the villages you have described as having

    22 been attacked, are they located in this open ground

    23 area?

    24 A. No, they're not.

    25 Q. Have you taken any pictures that would depict exactly

  46. 1 what you can see from the front entrance of the Hotel

    2 Vitez?

    3 A. No, we have not.

    4 Q. Now you've identified by the letter E the front line

    5 boundary between Vitez and Stari Vitez; correct?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Would you agree that if one were to come out on to the

    8 front steps of the Hotel Vitez, you would be exposed, at

    9 least potentially, to sniper fire from Stari Vitez?

    10 A. I could only speculate. Possibly.

    11 Q. Based on your review of the materials in your files, can

    12 you tell this court whether or not individuals were

    13 killed on the front steps of the Hotel Vitez during the

    14 war from gunfire from Stari Vitez, if you know?

    15 A. I've no knowledge.

    16 Q. Is there a rear entrance to the Hotel Vitez?

    17 A. I understand so but I do not know where it is on the

    18 building.

    19 Q. Have you ever stood at the rear entrance and looked to

    20 see what you can see?

    21 A. No, I have not.

    22 Q. Would you agree that from this map, if the rear entrance

    23 is at the back, that is the south side of the hotel,

    24 that there appears to be a large structure immediately

    25 to the south?

  47. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Thank you. Now when you were a police detective or

    3 inspector in the United Kingdom would you work with the

    4 Prosecutor to identify and collect the evidence relevant

    5 to a potential prosecution?

    6 A. Subject to the nature of the investigation. Normally

    7 one would conduct an investigation somewhat

    8 independently. The more complex the investigation is,

    9 a senior police officer higher rank than me may ask or

    10 request the Crown Prosecution Service for the immediate

    11 involvement of a prosecuting counsel.

    12 Q. But your role would include identifying potential

    13 witnesses; correct?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. And obtaining information from them?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Now you've obviously undertaken a vast effort here to

    18 collect information and potential evidence to bring it

    19 to this Tribunal. Have you yourself interviewed

    20 witnesses in Bosnia and Herzegovina in connection with

    21 this matter?

    22 A. Yes, I have.

    23 Q. Now without revealing the identity of any such

    24 witnesses, can you tell us how those witnesses were

    25 selected for interview? Who identified them?

  48. 1 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'm reluctant to intervene again,

    2 but this is clearly beyond the scope of the direct

    3 examination. Mr. Leach's direct examination was limited

    4 to the introduction of physical evidence, not into the

    5 methods of investigation and enquiry. I would,

    6 therefore, object to this line of enquiry.

    7 MR. HAYMAN: May I be heard?

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman?

    9 MR. HAYMAN: Had he limited himself to physical evidence,

    10 the objection might well be well taken but he also

    11 commented on events and other information that could

    12 only have come from witness information, and therefore

    13 I think we are entitled to ask a few questions about the

    14 process by way the investigators have collected, if in

    15 fact they have done the collection themselves, and

    16 brought evidence to the court. (Pause.)

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Oui. There is a lot of practice here and

    18 I appreciate the opinions of my colleagues. Mr. Hayman,

    19 what we are requesting from you is that you always

    20 remain as part of your strategy, of course, but during a

    21 cross-examination in respect of what the investigators

    22 said, but having said that we do not sustain the

    23 Prosecutor's objection, and we will allow Mr. Hayman to

    24 go on with his question, but we will be very vigilant

    25 that the limits or the borders of cross-examination not

  49. 1 be exceeded. You may proceed, Mr. Hayman.

    2 MR. HAYMAN: Yes, your Honour. I have about five questions

    3 that I hope to ask concerning the process of collecting

    4 evidence. The question I think I had posed, Mr. Leach,

    5 was: have you interviewed witnesses in Bosnia and

    6 Herzegovina, without identifying any identities or any

    7 information that would tend to identify any such

    8 witnesses? Have you had the occasion to conduct or

    9 participate in such interviews?

    10 A. Yes, I have.

    11 Q. Can you tell us, again without identifying any witnesses

    12 or other personnel, were those witnesses initially

    13 selected for interview in connection with this matter by

    14 you and your staff or by someone else?

    15 A. We collected initially information provided through the

    16 Bosnian government authorities. In certain cases they

    17 had taken statements from witnesses. Those statements

    18 would either be translated fully or summarily, subject

    19 to the limitations on the translation unit here. We

    20 then in the Office of the Prosecutor and the

    21 investigative team would select witnesses and thereafter

    22 identify other witnesses that we would want to locate to

    23 interview.

    24 Q. So the initial batch of material that came to you and

    25 your office were selected by this state organ of Bosnia

  50. 1 and Herzegovina; correct?

    2 A. Not just one organ; more than one source.

    3 Q. Did it principally come from one source within that

    4 government?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Is that the entity known as AID?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. And AID has a State security or intelligence function on

    9 behalf of the Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina;

    10 correct?

    11 A. I understand so.

    12 Q. Do you know on those occasions where you participated in

    13 an interview, do you know how the witness came to be

    14 notified or asked to come to the interview? Were they

    15 picked up by the police?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Were they brought to a police station?

    18 A. I'd rather not discuss where interviews took place.

    19 Q. Okay. They were brought to a location by the police

    20 force of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And there you would have the chance to meet with the

    23 individual?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 MR. HARMON: Again, your Honour, we are going into quite a

  51. 1 bit of detail on methods of operation. I would object.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Absolutely. Objection sustained. Please

    3 change questions.

    4 MR. HAYMAN: I move on, your Honour. I would ask that

    5 Mr. Leach be instructed to remain on call to testify in

    6 the Defence case, if necessary.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Leach, you will remain available to the

    8 Tribunal, should the Defence need for you to reappear.

    9 Mr. Hayman, have you finished?

    10 MR. HAYMAN: I have one more small area of questioning.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: All right.

    12 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, your Honour. Mr. Leach, on

    13 Exhibit 45, does that exhibit depict the UNPROFOR base

    14 at Nova Bila, the so-called Brit Bat base?

    15 A. No, it does not.

    16 Q. Can you tell us in what direction it would lie from this

    17 map?

    18 A. I'll unplug my microphone, your Honours, and show you

    19 (indicating).

    20 Q. So to get to the UNPROFOR Brit Bat base, you would

    21 follow the road that passes -- you would follow the main

    22 road up in a north west, north-westerly direction

    23 towards Novi Travnik?

    24 A. Towards Travnik and you would go towards Novi Travnik,

    25 but one would turn left at a T-junction to go to Novi

  52. 1 Travnik.

    2 Q. About how far was the Brit Bat base from, say, the Hotel

    3 Vitez? Are you able to tell us that?

    4 A. It's 4.3 kms and takes about 6 minutes by car.

    5 Q. How far then would the Brit Bat base have been from the

    6 village of Ahmici? I am sorry to have to ask you to

    7 perform mathematical calculation, but I must, and I'm

    8 sure you can do it better than I would?

    9 A. Between 7-8.5 kms.

    10 Q. Have you read the book "Broken lives"?

    11 A. Once -- twice but a long time ago but yes, I have read

    12 it.

    13 Q. Now the commander of the British UNPROFOR forces at the

    14 time in April, this period in April, mid-April 1993, was

    15 Colonel Stewart; correct?

    16 A. Lieutenant Colonel Robert Stewart, yes.

    17 Q. Do you remember from his book when he first learned of

    18 the massacre in Ahmici?

    19 A. 20th or 21st April.

    20 Q. It was not on the 16th; correct?

    21 A. I don't think it was, no.

    22 Q. It was not on the 17th; correct?

    23 A. 20th or 21st April.

    24 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, the witness has already answered

    25 the question and I would object to continued questions

  53. 1 on that particular line of enquiry.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: I think that we have already set the case law

    3 here. Go ahead.

    4 MR. HAYMAN: So your best recollection, it was four or five

    5 days after the massacre occurred?

    6 A. Yes, but I could confirm it, if I looked at the book,

    7 but possibly three, four, five days. It's over one

    8 year since I've read the book.

    9 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you very much, Mr. Leach.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: This is the question I was going ask you.

    11 You did read the book, didn't you?

    12 A. Yes, I did, Mr. President.

    13 MR. HAYMAN: No further questions, your Honour. Thank you,

    14 Mr. Leach.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon?

    16 Re-examination by Mr. Harmon.

    17 MR. HARMON: Mr. Leach, I have two areas of enquiry. The

    18 first I would like to ask you about is sources of

    19 prosecution witnesses, because I do not want to leave

    20 you testifying to the Chamber with the impression that

    21 the sole source of witnesses were provided through the

    22 AID.

    23 Let me ask you, Mr. Leach, were witnesses

    24 identified by a variety of sources to the Office of the

    25 Prosecutor?

  54. 1 A. Yes, they were.

    2 Q. Did that include witnesses being identified through

    3 non-governmental organisations?

    4 A. Absolutely, yes.

    5 Q. Did it include witnesses being identified to the Office

    6 of the Prosecutor through the statements of other

    7 witnesses?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Did it include the testimony -- did it include the

    10 identity of witnesses through UN organisations?

    11 A. Yes, it did.

    12 Q. Did it include the identification of witnesses through

    13 other sources?

    14 A. Yes, it did.

    15 Q. All right. Now if I could have Prosecutor's exhibit

    16 number 60, Mr. Dubuisson, given to the witness, which is

    17 a photo album of the Busovaca mosque. (Handed) All

    18 right. Mr. Leach, you were asked on cross-examination a

    19 question about the destruction of the minaret. You

    20 were shown defence Exhibit 12 and a sentence was

    21 highlighted in that. It says and I quote:

    22 "Last month Croatian Bosnian forces demolished the

    23 minaret of the Busovaca mosque".

    24 Does a mosque -- first of all, what is a minaret?

    25 A. The minaret is the tower-type building which is used by

  55. 1 the priest to call worshippers to prayer at various

    2 times of the day using a small room and sometimes with a

    3 loudhailer or a microphone at the top of the minaret.

    4 Q. Does a mosque consist of more than a minaret?

    5 A. Yes, the minaret is a small, round towered structure

    6 which is attached to the side of the mosque.

    7 Q. Would you refer to exhibit number 60, Mr. Leach, and

    8 would you take out photograph Z1/788? Place that on the

    9 ELMO, please. Now in that particular photograph,

    10 Mr. Leach, does it show where the minaret that was

    11 destroyed once stood?

    12 A. Yes. Where the minaret would have been from the base,

    13 and if it was undestroyed, it would have been in this

    14 location here (indicating).

    15 Q. Now would you -- in the foreground of that picture, is

    16 there a portion of the minaret that's shown?

    17 A. (Indicating).

    18 Q. You are pointing now to rubble that's in the foreground;

    19 is that correct?

    20 A. Yes. That would be where the top of the minaret would

    21 have been.

    22 Q. All right. Now will you please place on the ELMO

    23 Z1/869? Mr. Leach, I take it that that photograph is not

    24 a photograph of a minaret; is that correct?

    25 A. That's the mosque. The minaret would have been to the

  56. 1 right here (indicating).

    2 Q. All right. Does that picture clearly show the

    3 destruction of the mosque main building?

    4 A. Yes, it does.

    5 Q. Now would you take the next photograph in that series,

    6 which was Z1/874? Place that on the ELMO, please.

    7 What does that picture depict?

    8 A. That's the inside of the main mosque, the main building

    9 of the mosque.

    10 Q. When was that picture taken?

    11 A. May 1996.

    12 Q. When you were there, Mr. Leach, was there extensive

    13 vegetation growing inside the area of destruction,

    14 inside the main mosque?

    15 A. Yes. It's visible inside on the photograph.

    16 Q. Did that include small trees?

    17 A. Yes, there's one there on the left of the photograph.

    18 Q. All right. Now the last area -- you can reassemble

    19 that exhibit, before I get to my last area of enquiry.

    20 Mr. Leach, you were asked some questions about Colonel

    21 Bob Stewart's book and when he was aware of the events

    22 in Ahmici. Were you aware -- are you aware that

    23 British soldiers were in Ahmici on 16th April 1993?

    24 A. Yes, they were.

    25 Q. Okay. Those were subordinates of Colonel Stewart; is

  57. 1 that correct?

    2 A. Yes, they were.

    3 Q. All right. I have no further questions, your Honour.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Riad, have you any questions you would

    5 like to ask? Yes. Judge Riad would like to ask the

    6 witness some questions.

    7 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Leach, you have shown us different pictures

    8 of the destruction which happened in the villages and

    9 which you saw on the ground. Could these destructions

    10 be the result of war and fighting, an inevitable

    11 result? Could the result -- could the destruction of

    12 the minaret especially, which you have just shown us, be

    13 just a result of this fighting or was it a deliberate --

    14 it could be a deliberate destruction? Were they

    15 deliberate targets to be destroy?

    16 A. When I was visiting these locations, your Honour, I had

    17 with me several military officers as escorts of a

    18 variety of disciplines, infantry, helicopter pilots,

    19 etc. I'm not a military expert, so what I'm telling

    20 you now is based on what they told me. Each of the

    21 mosques that I've shown photographs of, as you walk into

    22 the mosque, you can walk on to what I call a first floor

    23 balcony. The minaret is always to the right of the

    24 entrance. It appears that some kind of explosive

    25 charge, whether that is specifically put together as an

  58. 1 explosive charge or whether it's the use, for example,

    2 which was suggested to me at the time, of a large

    3 anti-tank mine, then that would be detonated, this

    4 charge, and the minaret would then tumble down. It

    5 does not appear to be the result of shelling. For each

    6 minaret to have had the same point of detonation, to

    7 have fallen over in the same manner, the shelling would

    8 have been unbelievably accurate. It does appear to be

    9 deliberate.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: In this route distancing which was given to

    11 us, one can see that most of the villages were within

    12 minutes from Vitez, from Hotel Vitez. Ahmici was

    13 within seven minutes by car and 4 kms. Others were

    14 within four minutes. Others were within six minutes,

    15 five minutes by car. Is this distance enough to make

    16 it possible for anyone in Vitez to be aware of the

    17 explosions happening around, or even to see through

    18 technical means or through field glasses, to see what's

    19 happening?

    20 A. Again I can only give evidence, hearsay or opinion

    21 evidence, but I think you will hear evidence from other

    22 witnesses and you will see additional evidence where it

    23 is quite clear that, for example, plumes of smoke from a

    24 variety of burning houses are quite clearly visible over

    25 distances in excess of 3 and 4 kms. Witnesses have

  59. 1 told me, you know, that one could hear the sounds of

    2 explosions 4, 5 and 6 kms away. So the answer to your

    3 question, your Honour, is yes.

    4 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Leach. I myself would like to

    6 ask Mr. Harmon a question. I'm turning to you,

    7 Mr. Harmon, because you are heading the team. These are

    8 the conditions for application of Rule 70 of the Rules

    9 of Procedure and Evidence. I would like you to tell

    10 the Trial Chamber exactly under Rule 70 in relation to

    11 the aerial photographs, and once you have explained the

    12 conditions in which you find yourself in relation to

    13 this article, I would like to know whether you had other

    14 sources and whether all the sources were disclosed to

    15 the accused as shown -- as required by Rule 70B. Could

    16 you answer that question, please?

    17 MR. HARMON: If you give me just a moment to look at

    18 Rule 70B, your Honour ... (Pause.)

    19 JUDGE JORDA: My colleagues have pointed out to me that we

    20 are talking about the use of Rule 70 for initial

    21 information.

    22 MR. HARMON: Yes, your Honour. Are you asking me whether

    23 we had received this information initially for purposes

    24 of generating new evidence?

    25 JUDGE JORDA: There are three conditions. It is initial

  60. 1 information which should be obtained only for gathering

    2 new evidence, and you need the consent of the person or

    3 the entity. Here it is the British Ministry of

    4 Defence. This is a consequence rather than a

    5 condition. The information condition be used as

    6 evidence before having disclosed it to the Defence,

    7 which is a sub question which I'm asking having to do

    8 with the number of maps which were supplied to the

    9 Defence and which are now being tendered as exhibits.

    10 Was this all disclosed to the Defence before this

    11 hearing?

    12 MR. HARMON: No, your Honour. One photograph was; the

    13 remaining photographs were not.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. I believe that we have now

    15 completed the testimony of Simon Leach. The Tribunal

    16 would like to thank you. We have just decided that you

    17 should remain available both to the accused, but to the

    18 Defence as well, which is a request which came from the

    19 Defence and which was granted by the Trial Chamber.

    20 You may now return to your duties. We turn to the

    21 Prosecutor for the following witness. Thank you very

    22 much.

    23 (Witness withdraws from court)

    24 MR. KEHOE: Good afternoon, Mr. President and your Honours.

    25 The Prosecutor calls Sefkija Djidic.

  61. 1 MR. HAYMAN: Perhaps counsel could spell that name, your

    2 Honour.

    3 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Which is exactly what my colleague asked and

    5 I was going to ask myself.

    6 MR. KEHOE: The last name, your Honour, is Djidic,

    7 D-J-I-D-I-C. Sefkija, S-E-F-K-I-J-A. Many Bosniaks

    8 in Bosnia will refer to their last name first and often

    9 refer to themselves as "Djidic Sefkija" when their

    10 family name is Djidic.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Therefore it is Mr. Djidic?

    12 MR. KEHOE: That is correct, your Honour.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you.

    14 (Witness enters court)

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Djidic, do you hear me? First of all,

    16 I would like to ask whether you hear me?

    17 A. Yes, I do.

    18 Q. Please read the statement or the declaration which was

    19 given to you, read it in your language, please.

    20 Mr. Sefkija Djidic (sworn)

    21 Examined by Mr. Kehoe?

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. You may be seated.

    23 MR. KEHOE: May I proceed, Mr. President?

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, proceed please.

    25 MR. KEHOE: Sir, can you please state your name?

  62. 1 A. I am Sefkija Djidic.

    2 Q. Mr. Djidic, how old are you and where do you live?

    3 A. I'm 43 and I live in Vitez.

    4 Q. Mr. Djidic, tell us a little bit about yourself

    5 personally, your background, where you are from

    6 originally, where you have lived during your 43 years.

    7 If you could provide that to the Tribunal, it would be

    8 helpful.

    9 A. I was born in Vitez. I completed elementary and

    10 secondary school in Vitez. I graduated from the

    11 University in Sarajevo. After gradation I worked in a

    12 secondary school as a teacher for about four years.

    13 After that I started working in a military factory as

    14 the chief of protocol for the admission of foreign

    15 guests. After five or six years I was appointed head

    16 of a department and that is the security department for

    17 the military facility. I worked there until May

    18 1992. In May 1992 I joined the Territorial Defence.

    19 After that I worked as chief of staff of the Territorial

    20 Defence, and in August I was appointed commander of the

    21 Territorial Defence of Vitez. In the course of 1992

    22 I engaged in preparations and the deployment of

    23 Territorial Defence units for defence against

    24 aggression. The conflict with the Croats in 1993

    25 occurred when I was in Stari Vitez, where I stayed for

  63. 1 all of 11 months under encirclement. After the

    2 conflict, after the truce was signed in February 1994, I

    3 was reunited with my family and I left to live in

    4 Travnik, as my house in the conflicts with the HVO was

    5 destroyed and my family displaced, my father was killed,

    6 and several relatives. I am now temporarily residing

    7 in Travnik. I have more or less reconstructed my house

    8 in Vitez and I hope to be able to return to my backyard

    9 soon. If it's necessary, I'm at your disposal for any

    10 further information.

    11 Q. Mr. Djidic, what do you do for work right now?

    12 A. I am now working as head of the police station in

    13 Vitez. Of course, in the section that is under the

    14 control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as in Vitez

    15 there are still two police stations.

    16 Q. Is the town of Vitez as of July 1997 essentially

    17 separated between a Bosnian Croat and a Bosnian Muslim

    18 side?

    19 A. Yes, it is still divided.

    20 Q. Mr. Djidic, would it be fair to tell this court that

    21 except for the period of time when you were studying at

    22 the University of Sarajevo, you have spent essentially

    23 your entire life living around the Vitez area?

    24 A. Yes, that is so.

    25 Q. During your time, sir, as an adult, were you ever part

  64. 1 of the military, the former Yugoslav people's army, as a

    2 military officer?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Tell the President and the judges exactly what your

    5 military experience was and is?

    6 A. I went to do my military service in a military school

    7 for officers in reserve of the former JNA. In 1972

    8 I attended the school for reserve officers in Bileca and

    9 after completing this training, I acquired the rank of

    10 Reserve Lieutenant of the former JNA. In the period

    11 from 1973 until 1990 I attended several specialisation

    12 courses and held responsible positions of command.

    13 More recently I was commander of a partisan battalion.

    14 These were mobile units of the reserve units. The

    15 highest rank I acquired was in 1990, when the rank was

    16 Captain first class.

    17 Q. Did you achieve this rank, Mr. Djidic, when you were a

    18 reserve officer as opposed to an active duty officer?

    19 A. Yes, as a reserve officer.

    20 Q. And while you were a reserve officer, did you continue

    21 to work in the SPS factory, as you described before?

    22 A. Yes. I and all other reserve officers and troops

    23 engaged in our normal duties, and we would be called up

    24 occasionally to attend exercises, various training

    25 courses, seminars and camping periods, depending on what

  65. 1 we were supposed to learn. At the end of an exercise

    2 all the reserve officers and soldiers would go back to

    3 their factories and to their regular jobs, and would

    4 continue working and living as civilians.

    5 Q. Now, Mr. Djidic, I would like to take your testimony in

    6 three separate segments, the first segment dealing with

    7 the build-up of the conflict, the second segment the

    8 conflict itself, and the third segment, the seizure.

    9 Starting with the first segment, Mr. Djidic, could you

    10 tell the court exactly what life was like in Bosnia and

    11 the Lasva Valley prior to the outbreak of hostilities?

    12 Was it a good life, a bad life?

    13 A. Yes. I will talk about that gladly. Life in Bosnia

    14 and in Yugoslavia was a very good life. When talking

    15 about Bosnia, especially Central Bosnia, which we are

    16 now actually dealing with, our life was almost ideal

    17 from the standpoint of cohabitation. I grew up in a

    18 settlement which was inhabited by both Serbs, Croats and

    19 Muslims. Never did we have any major problems.

    20 Simply we lived like a big extended family. These were

    21 mostly original inhabitants, old timers, people who knew

    22 each other for many years. They visited one another

    23 frequently. They went to each other's homes for any

    24 celebrations and in events of sadness. We would visit

    25 one another for religious events and festivities and the

  66. 1 children particularly rejoiced when Bijram would come,

    2 Easter or Christmas, when children would be given

    3 cookies, coloured eggs, roast meat, and the adults would

    4 sit together and feast on delicacies. That was a

    5 custom observed by all three sides. We grew up

    6 together. We went to school together. We engaged in

    7 sports together. All in all everything we did, we did

    8 together. Only our religious places of worship were

    9 separate, as is normal.

    10 There were churches and there were mosques, which

    11 were visited by people belonging to the respective

    12 ethnic groups. It was not rare for a member of another

    13 ethnic group to visit the place of worship of another

    14 group. This was mostly out of curiosity, one must say,

    15 but also it was prompted by the desire to attend large

    16 rallies, when a large number of young people were

    17 present, good looking young men and pretty girls. Also

    18 it was not uncommon for religious events, or to be more

    19 precise, meetings or festivities to be attended by a

    20 certain number of young men and women belonging to a

    21 different ethnic group, again out of the curiosity, but

    22 also in order to get to know one another. This kind of

    23 socialising resulted in the formation of mixed

    24 marriages, which were very numerous in Vitez, combining

    25 members of all three groups. At one point in time you

  67. 1 simply didn't know when you pronounce somebody's name

    2 which religion or nation he belonged to, and I can

    3 assure you that I am happy to have lived in such an

    4 environment. I hope that that life will be restored.

    5 Q. Mr. Djidic, when did things begin to change in Vitez and

    6 Central Bosnia; do you recall?

    7 A. Things started to change in the course of the

    8 preparations for the elections. That was in 1990, when

    9 there were first isolated cases of people acting and

    10 speaking according to their ethnic origin, and as time

    11 went by this became increasingly frequent and more

    12 widespread.

    13 Q. Taking it on from there, was there some identification

    14 with political parties by each ethnic side in the

    15 elections of 1990?

    16 A. More or less, yes, a majority of people, but not all.

    17 All the people in Vitez did not join national parties.

    18 This can be said of Croats, of Serbs and Muslims.

    19 There were people who opted for parties which were not

    20 nationally coloured, and one might say that in most

    21 cases those were people from mixed marriages, and

    22 especially people that had constant contact with people

    23 of different ethnic backgrounds. Unfortunately there

    24 were not too many of those people.

    25 Q. Mr. Djidic, after the election of 1990, were there other

  68. 1 events that caused a raising of tensions between the

    2 various ethnic groups?

    3 A. Yes. A struggle for power ensued. Simply with the

    4 disintegration of the communist system each of the

    5 parties had their own programmes, which, when studied

    6 closely, were good and constructive. There was little

    7 difference among them, because not one of those

    8 programmes envisaged war. However, later on one could

    9 read between the lines and gather from that, and that is

    10 what in effect happened, that there were people who

    11 wanted to capture Bosnia and Herzegovina and to proclaim

    12 it to be their state alone. In the first case this

    13 applied to the Serbs, who carried out an aggression

    14 against Bosnia-Herzegovina, and, secondly, it was the

    15 extreme section of Croats who at that time tried to and

    16 actually succeeded in forming the Croatian Community of

    17 Herceg-Bosna, which later acquired the outlines of a

    18 State within a State. From that moment on, when the

    19 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna was formed, even

    20 greater problems presented themselves, especially for

    21 the Muslims, who were already defending themselves from

    22 the Serbs' aggression.

    23 Q. Let's go back to the formation of the Croatian Community

    24 of Herceg-Bosna. Mr. Djidic, do you recall

    25 approximately when the Croatian Community of

  69. 1 Herceg-Bosna was formed?

    2 A. I think it was in 1991.

    3 Q. Did the relationship between the Bosnian Muslims in the

    4 Vitez area and the Bosnian Croats change after the

    5 formation of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna in

    6 1991?

    7 A. Yes. Relations changed substantially. This was

    8 evidenced by various phenomena and in various places,

    9 where the Muslims became second rate in relation to the

    10 Croats.

    11 Q. Explain that, Mr. Djidic. What do you mean when you say

    12 that "Muslims became second rate in relation to the

    13 Bosnian Croats"? Could you explain that to the court?

    14 A. First of all, the political leadership of the HDZ wanted

    15 everyone in the so-called Herceg-Bosna to observe the

    16 laws of Herceg-Bosna and to recognise the authority of

    17 Herceg-Bosna, that is of the Croats, regardless of

    18 whether there were 100, 1,000 or many thousand Muslims

    19 living in a particular town, that is to say in Vitez,

    20 where the ratio in terms of the population was more or

    21 less 50: 50, with only 2 or 3 per cent -- with the

    22 Croats having only 2 or 3 per cent higher share in the

    23 population.

    24 As a second reason and explanation that the

    25 Muslims became second rate, I would like to refer to the

  70. 1 fact that workers, Muslims, who did not wish to sign

    2 their allegiance to Herceg-Bosna were fired by their

    3 employers. A further interesting example is the fact

    4 that with the formation of the Croatian Community of

    5 Herceg-Bosna, the Croats placed flags on all

    6 institutions and factories and even private homes, flags

    7 which were those of a neighbouring state, that is The

    8 Republic of Croatia, that is the national flag, as if

    9 no-one else lived in Vitez except the Croats. There

    10 are many more examples that one might refer to.

    11 Q. Now, Mr. Djidic, you said that there were elections in

    12 1990 throughout Bosnia. Were the Muslims in the Vitez

    13 area or any place else in Central Bosnia given a choice

    14 as to whether or not they wanted their particular

    15 opstina or municipality to become a part of the Croatian

    16 Community of Herceg-Bosna?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. Were you -- I'm sorry. Continue.

    19 A. At the time of the elections each individual was free to

    20 choose one of the parties. The aim and task of each

    21 party was to come into power. However, that power

    22 would be a joint -- a joint government would be

    23 established, which would be shared in percentages, as

    24 emerged from the elections, so that all the people

    25 living in the territory of the Vitez municipality would

  71. 1 be represented in that government, and that would have

    2 been correct, if it had been done that way. However,

    3 it was not done that way. The HDZ wanted through the

    4 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna to control all power

    5 and to be superior, to have control over all people who

    6 lived in the -- within the imagined borders of

    7 Herceg-Bosna. Similarly the authorities of the

    8 so-called Herceg-Bosna did not recognise the legally

    9 elected authorities in the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    10 based in Sarajevo, but had their own supreme authority,

    11 which in those days was situated in Grude and in Mostar,

    12 or, to be more precise, in Zagreb.

    13 Q. How do you know that the authorities in Vitez for the

    14 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna would not recognise

    15 the authority of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina

    16 in Sarajevo?

    17 A. This is common knowledge to me and everyone else,

    18 because HDZ representatives did not go for consultations

    19 to Sarajevo, but went for consultations to Grude, to

    20 Mostar and to Zagreb. Simply the man who was at the

    21 time President of the Presidency was not recognised as

    22 the legitimate representative of all the citizens of

    23 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    24 Q. Who was that individual?

    25 A. It was Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, the President of the

  72. 1 Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    2 Q. Now did have you conversations with HDZ political

    3 leaders in Vitez who told you that they would not

    4 recognise the authority of President Alija Izetbegovic?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. With whom?

    7 A. The meetings that we had and which were very frequent

    8 with HDZ members and members of the HVO were mostly held

    9 over the establishment and recognition of the authority

    10 of the HVO, as the only possible solution for these

    11 parts of the imagined Herceg-Bosna. On one occasion

    12 Mr. Pero Skopljak at a meeting attended by -- still

    13 attended by both Muslims and Croats said that he did not

    14 recognise Alija or the army, but that his authority in

    15 Grude was -- that his authorities were in Grude and in

    16 Zagreb.

    17 Q. Mr. Djidic, who were these other political leaders

    18 besides Pero Skopljak and what was Pero Skopljak's role?

    19 A. Pero Skopljak initially, that is in 1991, was the chief

    20 of police and at the same time I think he was the

    21 President of the HDZ. That is why he gave up his post

    22 as chief of police and dedicated himself to the work of

    23 the Presidency of the HDZ.

    24 Q. Just going back to my question, Mr. Djidic, could you

    25 identify the other political leaders of the Croatian

  73. 1 Community of Herceg-Bosna and the HDZ? Who over the

    2 course of time indicated to you that they were not going

    3 to comply with the laws of The Republic of Bosnia and

    4 Herzegovina in Sarajevo?

    5 A. In Vitez people, Croats, with whom I had contact most

    6 frequently and who were also the authors together with

    7 people from other cities of the Croatian Community of

    8 Herceg-Bosna were in the first place: Ivicia Santic,

    9 Anto Valenta, Pero Skopljak, Marjan Skopljak, Mario

    10 Cerkez and many others, together with Mr. Kordic, who was

    11 from Busovaca, but who at that time was one of the

    12 leaders of the party of the Croatian Democratic Union,

    13 as well as Mate Boban, whom I did not have occasion to

    14 talk to, but people from Vitez mostly had to be given

    15 advice and to receive orders from the authorities that

    16 were based in Grude.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, Mr. Kehoe, I think we'll stop for

    18 today. I would like to remind you that we'll resume

    19 for a closed hearing on Monday at 9.30, and we will then

    20 resume the questioning of Mr. Djidic at 2.30 on Monday.

    21 The court stands adjourned.

    22 (1.00 pm)

    23 (Hearing adjourned until 9.30 on Monday morning)

    24 --ooOoo--