1 Monday, 24th November 1997
2 (10.00 am)
3 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Mr. Registrar, would you
4 please have the accused brought in?
5 (Accused brought in)
6 JUDGE JORDA: Well, first let me check and see whether the
7 interpretation is operational, I hope everyone is off to
8 a good week? Everyone can hear me? Office of the
9 Prosecutor, you can hear me; Defence you hear me as
10 well? General Blaskic, you can hear me?
11 MR. BLASKIC: Good morning, your Honour, I can hear you well.
12 JUDGE JORDA: Great, thank you. I would suggest that we get
13 going. I see that the protective measures have been set
14 up. Mr. Harmon, go right ahead, sir.
15 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President, good morning
16 your Honours, good morning counsel. Mr. President, our
17 next witness is a protected witness and he has requested
18 facial protection only. He is named Adnan Zec and he
19 will be testifying to your Honours this morning about
20 his observations that he saw before the attack on
21 16th April. He will describe to your Honours his
22 observations of the bungalow, he will describe his
23 observations at the school that he attended and
24 observations of local Croats leaving the village before
25 the attack took place. He will also testify about the
1 Territorial Defence to the extent that his father was a
2 participant in it.
3 Then we will turn, Mr. President, to the events on
4 16th April, in lower Ahmici. Adnan Zec will describe
5 the murder of innocent civilians, troop concentrations
6 that he observed in lower Ahmici, the different units
7 that he could identify participating in a co-ordinated
8 fashion in the attack. He will testify about the
9 destruction of the mosque in lower Ahmici. He will
10 testify about looting by the HVO, intentional fire
11 setting of residents of Muslim residences, and he will
12 testify about the lack of resistance by Muslims.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, you have described this very well.
14 So for the time being at first we are going to begin by
15 introducing the witness, so Registrar, could you lower
16 the blinds that we could show the witness in and then we
17 will raise the blinds so that the people in the gallery
18 can follow the proceedings. So it is just facial
19 protection you are talking about, Mr. Harmon?
20 MR. HARMON: That is correct, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you.
22 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President, may I make an observation?
23 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, yes.
24 MR. HAYMAN: We do not wish to delay the proceedings, but we
25 wish to note that as a matter of principle, unless there
1 is a specific basis for a protective measure, where a
2 witness has gone out in the media and made himself a
3 public figure by granting interviews and having his face
4 photographed and printed in the media, we think there
5 should be some kind of factual basis for the court to
6 grant protective measures. We do not wish this
7 individual to be in any kind of harm's way and we refer
8 to the court's good discretion and judgement in this
9 area, but we wish to bring that to the court's attention
10 and to state our principle view with respect to the
11 issue.
12 JUDGE JORDA: Before deciding this, I would like to hear
13 what the Office of the Prosecutor has to say. When was
14 that interview given, Mr. Harmon? Is this a recent
15 interview?
16 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, the interview that counsel has
17 just showed you is a copy of an interview that
18 I provided to counsel recently in discovery. When it
19 came to my attention I provided it to him. Counsel is
20 correct, there is I believe a picture of the witness in
21 there, but nevertheless, Mr. President, I am prepared to
22 make a showing today to your Honours of the threats that
23 have been made to this young man. If the court wishes
24 to go into private session I will be happy to have him
25 describe the threats that have been made to him that
1 have caused him sufficient fear that he no longer wants
2 to have his face shown in public.
3 JUDGE JORDA: What we are going to do is when the witness is
4 in the courtroom we will ask him the conditions under
5 which he gave that interview. It is quite right what
6 Mr. Hayman says, it is difficult to ask for strict
7 protective measures from the Tribunal. Of course, it is
8 the Tribunal's duty to protect witnesses, we do that as
9 and when necessary, but the witnesses themselves have to
10 see to their own protection. Thank you, Mr. Harmon,
11 thank you, counsel for the Prosecution.
12 Let us bring in the witness, please, usher.
13 (Witness entered court)
14 JUDGE JORDA: Can you hear me? The first thing you have to
15 tell the usher, Mr. Registrar, is to put the headset at
16 the disposal of the witness, otherwise -- can you hear
17 me? Do you hear me?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 JUDGE JORDA: You do, great. You are going to tell us your
20 first and last name and then you will stand and read out
21 the solemn oath please. What is your name, sir?
22 THE WITNESS: Adnan Zec.
23 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Now please stand and read the
24 solemn declaration which all witnesses are bound to
25 read. If you would please stand, sir? Please read that
1 oath, sir.
2 MR. ADNAN ZEC (sworn)
3 JUDGE JORDA: Fine, thank you. Please be seated. Mr. Zec,
4 we will see exactly how your name is spelt, but in any
5 event, Mr. Zec -- could you spell that please for me, the
6 interpreters? Z-E-C, Mr. Zec. That is how it is
7 pronounced, is it? I will work it out in the end.
8 Mr. Zec, you are subject to the protective measures
9 ordered by the court, you have asked that there be
10 facial protection for you, that has been provided, but
11 we have just learnt you had given an interview in a
12 publication. We do not want to spend much time on this,
13 but you did think it was appropriate to give this
14 interview, do not say too much about it, which may lead
15 to revealing matters relevant to your identity that you
16 do not want everyone to know, but everyone has to help
17 out when it comes to protection, including the witnesses
18 themselves.
19 So Office of the Prosecutor, now you have called
20 this witness, you have perfectly outlined the main
21 points of the testimony that your Office is expecting to
22 hear, so perhaps after some basic identification, we
23 will ask the witness to testify. Of course, we have our
24 expedited procedure, as it were, so please interrupt as
25 little as possible except when there are points of
1 clarification you would like to dwell on and then you
2 can have questions afterwards which you think are vital
3 to the case of the Prosecution. So Mr. Harmon, if you
4 need to go into any questions concerning identification,
5 please do so. Thereafter, the witness will go into the
6 areas that you have outlined. Please proceed,
7 Mr. Harmon.
8 Examined by MR. HARMON
9 Q. Mr. President, I will start by asking him some questions
10 about identification and then I will ask him some brief
11 questions about a selected number of topics and then
12 I will ask him to go into his narrative, with the
13 court's permission.
14 Adnan, how old are you?
15 A. I am now 18 and I was 13 in 1993.
16 Q. Are you a Muslim?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were you raised all of your life in the village of
19 Ahmici?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Let me be turn your attention to 15th April 1993. Did
22 you attend school on 15th April?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What, if anything, unusual did you notice when you went
25 to school on 15th April?
1 A. Yes, I noticed that certain Croatian children, children
2 of Croatian extraction, were not attending school,
3 especially the children from Ahmici.
4 Q. Did you normally take a bus to school and back from
5 school?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Did that bus normally pass the location known as the
8 bungalow?
9 A. Yes, the bus was coming from Turbe, from the direction
10 of Vitez, then would turn around in Nadioci and go back
11 to Vitez. I would get on the bus in Ahmici and then
12 would go to Vitez to go to school.
13 Q. And the bus would go past Ahmici, continue on the road
14 toward Busovaca until it hit a turn-out after it passed
15 the bungalow and then it would return to Vitez, is that
16 correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Can you tell the judges about the bungalow, please, what
19 it was and what you saw at the bungalow at various times
20 before the attack?
21 A. The bungalow was a restaurant of sorts. However, about
22 a month before 15th April, the military arrived in two
23 or three buses and they took up their quarters there.
24 There was machine-gun nest right next to it, and the
25 soldiers wore camouflage uniforms, and weapons.
1 Q. Approximately how many soldiers did you see at the
2 bungalow the month before the attack on Ahmici?
3 A. Approximately there were about 70 soldiers stationed
4 there.
5 Q. Those soldiers were in camouflage uniforms, is that
6 correct?
7 A. Yes, they were in camouflage uniforms.
8 Q. When you went to school on 15th April 1993, did you also
9 see the bungalow?
10 A. Yes, on 15th April I did see the bungalow. There was no
11 bus on that day. When I arrived in a bus, there were
12 about seven or eight soldiers outside, and whenever
13 I would pass by there, somebody would always be in this
14 machine-gun nest.
15 Q. The bungalow and the soldiers you are talking about were
16 Croats, is that not correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I am sorry, did I interrupt you?
19 A. Yes, they had the HV insignia on them.
20 Q. HV is from -- what does that represent, "HV"?
21 A. HV is the Croatian army.
22 Q. So on 15th April, Adnan, you saw a smaller number of
23 soldiers in and around the bungalow, correct?
24 A. Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. After you returned home from school on 15th April, did
1 you see anything unusual or did you hear about any
2 unusual activities that had taken place in and around
3 your house?
4 A. Yes, when I returned, my parents were commenting on why
5 these children from Ahmici did not go to school that
6 day. They saw them around on that day. Then the
7 Milicevic family, these are three households, three
8 families, they had driven their families away in cars,
9 and in front of Ivo Papic's house, different vehicles
10 were constantly coming and going.
11 Q. The Milicevic family is Croat and the Papic family you
12 mentioned are also Croats, is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. This individual by the name of Papic, what was his first
15 name?
16 A. Dragan Papic, Goran and Ivo.
17 MR. HARMON: Did he live across the road --
18 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, I thought that we had said certain
19 things, if you recall, I think we have prepare -- you
20 have prepared the witness and maybe we could let the
21 witness get on with his narrative. I know you have some
22 reluctance to go along with this procedure, I think, but
23 I do think that we had agreed that we would try to stick
24 to the essentials of the case. It is perhaps
25 appropriate for you to put a few questions, but I think
1 you were back in the former way of doing things, as it
2 were. I would like the witness to testify before the
3 court, so maybe you could have a few more questions, but
4 I would like to get on with that procedure. Maybe we
5 could have a mix of the methods, as it were, counsel,
6 but here I think we are back to you putting the hundreds
7 of questions you have worked out with the witness and
8 I think we have seen that hundreds of questions, they
9 are not all essential to the case, so let us try to work
10 on this approach. Please proceed, sir.
11 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, with the court's indulgence I only
12 have a few more questions and then I intend to have the
13 witness commence on his narrative, but I need to set the
14 stage for the witness's testimony in order to put it
15 clearly to the court.
16 JUDGE JORDA: So you have the court's indulgence. Go right
17 ahead.
18 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Adnan, on 16th April 1993, who was living with you
20 at your home?
21 A. My father, Sabahudin Zec, he was 37 years old; my
22 mother, Hajrija Zec, who was 40 years old; my sister
23 Alisa Zec, who was 11 years old, and my sister Melisa,
24 who was 6 years old; and myself, who was 13 at the time.
25 Q. A few questions about your father. Your father was a
1 member of the TO, was he not?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And your father participated on occasion walking around
4 the village as part of a village guard, is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When your father participated as a member of the village
7 guard, did he have a gun?
8 A. Yes, the village had some hunting rifles and some other
9 weapons which were handmade, and that is what they were
10 using and that is how they were guarding the village.
11 Q. On 16th April, the morning of the attack, were there any
12 weapons at all in your house?
13 A. No.
14 MR. HARMON: Now with the court's permission, with the
15 usher's assistance, I would like to have Prosecutor's
16 Exhibit 141 disseminated and I would like one copy of
17 Prosecutor's Exhibit 141 placed in front of the witness.
18 For the record, Mr. President, 141 is an
19 enlargement of a portion of Exhibit 50, it is a map and
20 attached thereto is a legend which identifies the
21 various numbers and letters that are identified on the
22 photograph itself.
23 JUDGE JORDA: Counsel, what about the legend here, the
24 title, is that covered by the protective measures?
25 MR. HARMON: It is, Mr. President.
1 Adnan, before coming into court today did you have
2 the opportunity to locate on a large aerial image a
3 number of locations that are relevant to your testimony
4 today?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were those locations marked with numbers and letters on
7 Prosecutor's Exhibit 141 that is in front of you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Have you had an opportunity to compare the legend that
10 is attached to that exhibit with the numbers and letters
11 that are found on Prosecutor's Exhibit 141?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Does the legend accurately correspond to the letters and
14 numbers and locations described therein?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. HARMON: Now, Adnan, using that exhibit when you feel it
17 necessary, to illustrate what you will be telling the
18 judges, can you please tell the judges what happened to
19 you and to members of your family on 16th April 1993?
20 JUDGE JORDA: Fine, counsel. I think that is the way
21 forward.
22 So you have heard what the Prosecutor has just
23 told you, you are going to testify about all the
24 elements that are relevant for the case of the
25 Prosecution and when you think it is appropriate to do
1 so, you point out the areas that are germane. If you
2 forget to say something, then do not worry, the
3 Prosecutor will put a few questions to you and
4 everything will be cleared up. Now please speak in your
5 own words and testify, tell us what happened, beginning
6 by responding to the question just put to you by the
7 Prosecutor.
8 A. 15th April, in the evening around 9.00 or 10.00, we all
9 went to bed. In the morning, the following morning,
10 very early, around --
11 JUDGE JORDA: If you could speak a bit louder please, or
12 move closer to the microphone, because otherwise the
13 interpreters have a tough time hearing you. Thank you.
14 Please do move forward. Just relax, do relax, speak
15 calmly and near the microphone. Please proceed.
16 A. In the morning around 5.00 or 5.30, we were awakened by
17 shooting. The bullets were smashing the windows and the
18 roof tiles. I was sleeping in one room, my two sisters
19 in another and my parents, my father and my mother, in
20 the third bedroom. The parents ran out of their bedroom
21 towards us, to wake us up, so that we could get dressed
22 and we could run away, because we had to put on some
23 clothes and the house was already on fire. We were in
24 the pyjamas and we ran out and at first we stayed in the
25 hallway on the upper floor of our house. We could not
1 stay there, then we went to the ground floor under the
2 staircase. We only took the clothes that we could put
3 on and while we were under the staircase, the parents
4 agreed that they would go back to the top floor and take
5 the money and gold, so that we could take it with us.
6 My mother went upstairs and she screamed. We
7 thought that she may have been hit. However, she was
8 not hit, the bullet had hit the room and it was a bullet
9 that set the room on fire, and so she screamed and she
10 put out the fire, she took the money and the gold and
11 came back to us downstairs. When she came back, in fact
12 my parents again talked it through and they agreed that
13 we should leave the house, because the house was very
14 soon going to be all on fire and we did not want to be
15 burned in the house, so they decided that we should go
16 to the house, Zijad Ahmic's house, which is marked with
17 number 5. That is the house that is set a little bit
18 into the ground so it has a kind of a basement.
19 So we tried to wait it out a little bit so that
20 the shooting would subside. However the shooting never
21 subsided, so we decided to run out of the house and run
22 up to the other house. At first, my little sister
23 Melisa and mama ran out, then my sister Alisa, then
24 myself and then my father. I was running in the
25 direction of -- along this road marked in red
1 (indicates), and my parents along the green road.
2 When I came to Nurija's house, this is house
3 marked with 3, I took shelter behind the upper side of
4 the house so that I could rest. Then at the moment
5 I turned the corner, there was a burst of tracer bullets
6 coming from below. It came in the direction where I was
7 just running a moment ago. As I was at Nurija's house,
8 my parents were above our barn, which is marked with
9 number 2. After I rested a bit there, I continued to
10 run.
11 I ran to the area of about Zahir's house, and
12 again I could feel that a burst of fire was shot
13 immediately next to me and I threw myself to the
14 ground. When I saw that I was not hit, I got up and
15 continued to run. When I came out to the road itself,
16 and this is where this red arrow makes a curve
17 (indicates), I continued another ten to fifteen metres
18 along that path, and I saw a soldier who was standing
19 next to Zahir's house. This is marked with A. That is
20 where he was standing. It was one soldier who told me,
21 "where are you going, kid?". I said that I was running
22 because of the shooting and he said, "run along".
23 However, next to him, Zahir was already lying on the
24 ground. He had no weapons on him, he was dressed in
25 civilian clothes and as I said, this soldier in
1 camouflage uniform was standing over him and he also
2 was -- had his face painted in black.
3 I continued to run to the cross road, which is
4 marked with C, and the soldiers -- in fact there were
5 three soldiers who were at the spot marked by letter B,
6 and as I had to pass them on the way to Zijad Ahmic's
7 house, which was marked with 5, as I had to pass by
8 them, they also stopped me and asked, "where are you
9 going, kid?", and I responded that I was running because
10 there was shooting, but they said, "no, stop, go back".
11 Since I was very close to them, maybe a metre away from
12 them, I turned around and started running back.
13 However, as I turned around, and I may have made
14 one or two steps, a burst of fire was shot at me and
15 I fell down. The three soldiers who were in the spot
16 marked with B, while I was running in the direction
17 towards them, as I was approaching them, they were
18 intermittently coming out and going back as if they were
19 hiding from someone and they were shooting in the
20 direction of Gornji Selo, but they were hidden, they
21 were crouching behind -- the place where they were was a
22 place where some kind of a shed or a barn was standing,
23 but that is where they were hiding behind, they were
24 crouching and then occasionally they would come out and
25 they would shoot at the upper village.
1 The one who shot at me was the first to the right,
2 and he was the one who ordered the soldier who was in a
3 location marked with A to shoot at my parents.
4 When I was hit, in fact when I was about to hit
5 the ground, I saw that my parents were arriving at the
6 position marked with D. They came to a stop there and
7 they were killed by the soldier at A, who received the
8 order from this soldier by whom I was shot. He told him
9 and repeated this three times, "kill them, kill them,
10 kill them". When he said, "kill them" for the second
11 time, my parents -- in fact my father said, "kill me and
12 let my wife and children go", but for the third time, he
13 got the order and he shot two bursts of fire which
14 killed my parents.
15 As I fell down there, I felt my leg going numb,
16 and I saw that I was hit in the leg. I was shot in two
17 different places. I did not dare move because the
18 soldiers were right next to me so I remained lying there
19 all day. I put my arms over my face so that they would
20 not notice that I was alive, simply not to see any
21 movement, because they were coming over to me. The
22 soldiers would come to me and would crouch by me and
23 would shoot at the upper village, so I had to do this so
24 they would not notice that I would move my eye lids. So
25 I had to keep my arm over my eyes and in this way, I was
1 also able to observe what was going on around me.
2 Further on during the day, soldiers kept going by
3 me because this seemed to be their main thoroughfare, so
4 to speak, they kept coming and going there. They were
5 coming from the house of Pjanic, Habiba Pjanic, marked
6 number 4, from my house marked as number 1, and from
7 those two directions, they were come and then they would
8 go different ways towards Zijad's house, number 5 and
9 further on along the road towards the mosque, but I do
10 not know how far they would get up there. They would
11 keep coming back and going and they were coming and
12 going back a lot.
13 During the day, I do not know what time it was,
14 I heard in Zahir's house that there were refugees living
15 there downstairs. I forget where they were from
16 exactly, but I heard them being driven out. When they
17 drove them out, they told them that they had to put
18 their hands on their heads and they shot dead one of
19 these people, one of these refugees, a man, I cannot
20 remember his name though. That is letter G. So he was
21 executed right in front of the house. The rest of them,
22 his wife and two children, were driven away, I saw that.
23 I saw him when he was forced out of the house and
24 when he was ordered to put his hands on his head and
25 I noticed that they would actually shoot him then so
1 I closed my eyes and then I heard a burst of gunfire and
2 he probably fell, I did not see him fall, but I think it
3 can be assumed. His wife and two children were driven
4 away, they went by me. I heard them walking, I heard
5 their steps. I was not watching, I was afraid, I had my
6 eyes closed so I just heard them walking and I heard
7 their sighs. They went by me and further on during the
8 day, they carried a wounded person by me on a
9 stretcher. That direction is not exactly depicted here,
10 but they carried this wounded person by and as they
11 walked up to me, they said, "is this one of our guys?",
12 but one of the men carrying the stretchers said "no",
13 and they went on.
14 Also during that day, Andjelko Vidovic, whose
15 nickname was Acko, went by me with a few soldiers
16 towards the house of Trako Mehemed and Trako Zilka. We
17 have not marked this house, though. When they went
18 further up, I heard them banging at the door, they even
19 broke a window. I heard a scream. I heard his wife
20 Zilka scream, then also a burst of gunfire. At that
21 point, I thought that Zilka was hit and I thought she
22 must have been shot dead, but after that, I found out
23 that it was Mehemed Trako who was killed.
24 In the afternoon, before dusk perhaps, I sort of
25 fell asleep. I do not know if I really fell asleep or
1 whether I simply fainted, I cannot remember that, but
2 I was simply awakened by a lot of noise, the clamour of
3 soldiers who were standing next to me when I opened my
4 eyes, there were 20 or 30 of them altogether. Then at
5 Almir's shed, some of them were trying actually to
6 breakdown the door of the garage where the car was.
7 They wanted to torch it. Others were protesting, saying
8 that it should not be torched, but he did set it on fire
9 after all and one of them was talking into a radio.
10 I could not see him because I did not dare open my eyes,
11 I was afraid that they would notice I was alive, because
12 they were simply standing next to me.
13 At that particular cross road, they were talking
14 into the radio transmitter and saying, "are you
15 advancing in the village of Pirici? Do you need
16 reinforcements? There are plenty of us over here. Send
17 us explosives for the lower mosque in Ahmici".
18 After he said that, I do not know if I had moved a
19 little or perhaps they had noticed me moving before that
20 or maybe they noticed that I was breathing, one of them
21 said, "this kid is alive, he is breathing" and he was
22 pointing at me. Then I already felt that I was dead,
23 I was simply expecting him to fire at me and kill me and
24 finish me off.
25 However, one of them walked up to me, touched me a
1 bit with his foot, kicked me a bit, turned me around a
2 bit and he said, "no, he is dead, he is not alive". He
3 said something to that effect. After that, they went
4 towards Zilka Trako's house and towards Zijad's house,
5 while Elvir's shed was already burning. I decided to
6 get up. I was all wet. There was a drizzle that day,
7 not a lot of rain, but I was all wet nevertheless and
8 I wanted to get dry. I got up and tried to leave, but
9 I was very dizzy when I stood up, as if I had had a lot
10 of alcohol to drink.
11 I tried to steady myself by holding the gate that
12 was open while they were carrying that wounded person by
13 me, so I held the gate for a while and then I staggered
14 towards Elvir's barn, and I managed to get to Elvir's
15 barn, where the fire was burning, actually. When I got
16 up from this place where I had been lying, I saw up
17 there by Zilka's house, or rather by the shed and
18 towards Zijad's house, I mean in that direction, I saw
19 soldiers walking up there. Actually the barn was
20 burning, so I did not know whether it had been torched
21 then or beforehand, but it was on fire.
22 When I reached the barn, I could not really stand,
23 so I lay down on the ground and I moved a bit from the
24 barn so that the roof would not fall on me, and I fell
25 asleep there. I woke up some time during the night or
1 perhaps it was already morning, I cannot remember what
2 woke me up, the detonation from the mosque or the heat
3 that was coming from there, because when I woke up,
4 I was very very hot. The roof had already fallen off,
5 everything was on fire but I was not on fire. I got up
6 and I went to the house of Ahmic Elvir, or Ahmic Mirsad
7 rather, which is marked number 6.
8 Mr. Harmon, do you want to ask me something at this
9 point?
10 MR. HARMON: Yes, I have a number of questions that I would
11 like to ask you.
12 JUDGE JORDA: Counsel, we have heard the testimony of the
13 witness, we thank him for it. Now what we expect from
14 you, Mr. Harmon, is not to go through all the questions
15 again, otherwise that would be pointless as well as it
16 would be unnecessary suffering on the part of the
17 witness. Having said that, I think it is perfectly
18 legitimate that you put the questions which you think
19 are essential to your case. Go right ahead, Mr. Harmon.
20 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, the witness -- I will ask him a
21 number of questions and then the witness will continue
22 with his narrative because he has not concluded his
23 narrative, but there are a number of points that need to
24 be clarified and let me proceed then with those
25 clarifications.
1 Adnan, you said you came very close to a soldier
2 who was the single soldier next to the body of Zahir
3 Ahmic. How was that soldier dressed?
4 A. He had a camouflage uniform on. He had black paint on
5 his face, something black on his face.
6 Q. Did he have any insignia on his uniform?
7 A. Yes, he had insignia, but I am not sure what insignia,
8 I am not sure.
9 Q. Did he have an eagle on his uniform?
10 A. Yes, he had an eagle on his uniform.
11 Q. Where was that eagle?
12 A. Yes, on the left-hand side of his chest.
13 Q. Now Adnan, let me turn your attention to the three
14 soldiers who you next came into contact with. Were they
15 in camouflage uniforms as well?
16 A. Yes, they also had camouflage uniforms on.
17 Q. Did they have an eagle on their uniforms?
18 A. I am not sure whether they had an eagle or a joker on
19 their uniforms.
20 Q. Okay. Did you also see patches with the letters HV on
21 those particular soldiers?
22 A. Yes, during the day as I lay there, many soldiers passed
23 by me and I saw them wearing HV insignia and I also saw
24 soldiers in black uniforms. I mean they were dressed in
25 black, everything they wore was black, and they also had
1 full gear and I also noticed the Vitezovi patch, but
2 I cannot remember on what uniforms there was a Vitezovi
3 patch.
4 Q. Adnan, just focusing on the three soldiers who were
5 involved in the killing of your family, I just want to
6 focus on the insignia that were on those soldiers. Were
7 HV patches on those soldiers or were they on different
8 soldiers?
9 A. I am not sure.
10 Q. You said you were wounded. Can you describe your wounds
11 to the judges?
12 A. Yes, one bullet hit the upper part of my left leg, my
13 thigh, and another bullet hit the heel of my left foot
14 and it went out on the other side.
15 Q. Now I would like to turn your attention to the moment
16 when your parents were killed. You saw them executed,
17 did you not?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When they were running in your direction at the time
20 they were shot, were they with your two sisters?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were they holding your two sisters at the time they were
23 shot by these soldiers?
24 A. My father was holding the hand of my sister Alisa and my
25 mother was holding the hand of my sister Melisa.
1 Q. What happened to Alisa?
2 A. Two bursts of gunfire were shot at them, one burst of
3 gunfire hit my father and my sister Alisa, and the other
4 burst of gunfire only hit my mother, while my sister
5 Melisa was not hit. She simply fainted, she fell on to
6 the ground together with my mother, but she was not hit
7 really, my sister Melisa.
8 Q. So your sister Alisa was killed at the same time your
9 father was killed?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Adnan, at the time your mother was killed, she was
12 wearing a dress, was she not?
13 A. Yes, she wore a red house dress, a house coat.
14 Q. How was your father dressed?
15 A. My father wore jeans and he only had a sweater,
16 I think. He did not even have a jacket on. My sister
17 Alisa was wearing a skirt; my sister Melisa also wore
18 trousers.
19 Q. Did the three soldiers who were involved in the killing
20 of your parents have a walkie-talkie with them?
21 A. Yes, the one who shot at me had a walkie-talkie, and
22 during the day I heard him saying something into it a
23 few times, but I did not manage to understand what he
24 was saying, and as far as I could tell, he was some kind
25 of superior to all of them, because during the day, he
1 would tell the soldiers, "why are you going there? Go
2 over here". He would curse at them, swear at their
3 mothers et cetera.
4 MR. HARMON: Now with the assistance of the usher, if I could
5 have Exhibit 116/2 placed on the ELMO? Mr. Usher, if you
6 could also take 100/2 as well with you to the ELMO it
7 would be much faster.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Counsel, the exhibit here that the witness was
9 referring to, what was the number on that?
10 MR. HARMON: That is Exhibit 141, Mr. President, and we will
11 be returning to that exhibit with the narrative of the
12 witness.
13 JUDGE JORDA: I would assume that could be entered into
14 evidence without any objection on the part of the
15 Defence. All right, thank you.
16 MR. HARMON: If we could place 116/2 on the ELMO. Adnan, you
17 said you observed a number of patches while you were
18 laying on the pathway. I am showing you Exhibit 116/2.
19 Do you recognise that particular patch and is that patch
20 similar to what you saw soldiers wearing on April 16th?
21 A. Yes, it is similar to the patch I saw on 16th April.
22 Q. Now let me have placed Exhibit 100/2 on the ELMO, and
23 ask you, Adnan, is this patch one of the patches that
24 you also saw on 16th April 1993?
25 A. Yes, this is also the patch I saw on 16th April.
1 MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, I am finished with those exhibits. If
2 141, the enlargement of the photograph, could be placed
3 again on the ELMO, I would appreciate it.
4 Adnan, you saw soldiers wearing patches that were
5 with an eagle, you saw patches that were Joker patches
6 and insignia, you saw HVO patches, you saw men in black
7 uniforms and you saw men in camouflage uniforms. Did it
8 appear to you while you lay on the ground throughout
9 that day that the soldiers wearing those various
10 uniforms and insignia were working together in a
11 co-ordinated fashion?
12 A. Yes, it seemed that they were all working together as if
13 they were mixed together.
14 Q. Let me ask you a question about heavier weapons that you
15 heard being fired on 16th April. Did you hear an
16 anti-aircraft gun being fired at all that day, while you
17 were laying there?
18 A. Yes, that day, when I was lying at the location marked
19 as C, so that is the cross-roads, I heard from house
20 number 4, the house of Habiba Pjanic, I heard some
21 voices coming from there. I tried to move then, because
22 I was fed up, I could not lie that way all the time.
23 I went all numb, so I tried to move on my elbows, but
24 I managed to move only about ten to twenty centimetres.
25 From the direction of Habiba's house, I heard a burst of
1 gunfire. It was not an ordinary burst of gunfire, it
2 was very loud. From guns, it was not that loud, so
3 I could hear there was a difference, a difference in
4 sound. So this burst of gunfire that came from the
5 direction of Pjanic's house, I was on my elbows and this
6 burst of gunfire went very high up, about a metre above
7 me, it hit the house of Hidajet, I cannot remember his
8 last name, but the house has not been marked all that
9 well either.
10 So that is how the house was set on fire. Part of
11 it hit the iron fence that was above me, and these
12 bullets ricocheted and went by me and hit the ground.
13 Q. Now let me ask you some questions about your
14 observations. You said you saw a male refugee who had
15 his hands above his head shot by some soldiers. What
16 kind of uniforms were those soldiers wearing who
17 executed the Muslim refugee?
18 A. Camouflage uniforms, they had camouflage uniforms and
19 they also had black paint on their faces.
20 Q. You said you saw some soldiers go towards the direction
21 and toward the house of Zilka Trako and that you later
22 learned that Mehemed Trako was murdered. What kind of
23 uniforms did those soldiers have on?
24 A. Also camouflage uniforms.
25 Q. Was Mehemed Trako a Muslim?
1 A. Yes, he was a Muslim and he was a distant relative of
2 mine.
3 Q. While you were laying on the ground, did you see your
4 house being set afire and can you please explain to the
5 judges what you saw?
6 A. Yes. As I lay there that morning, it was quite early,
7 three soldiers came, I think they were in camouflage
8 uniforms, they stayed in the house for a short while and
9 then they went out. Soon after they got out, thick
10 smoke started coming out of the house, so the house was
11 set on fire.
12 Q. I would like to turn your attention very briefly to the
13 20 or 30 soldiers who were standing next to you and who
14 were in some form of radio communication about Pirici
15 and about the mosque. Did you ever see what kind of
16 uniforms those soldiers had on?
17 A. That evening, when that noise woke me up, I opened my
18 eyes only for a little, a very little, because there
19 were a lot of people there, 20 or 30 soldiers. I am not
20 sure whether they only had camouflage uniforms or
21 whether there were camouflage and black uniforms there,
22 because I closed my eyes. I was afraid they would
23 notice I was alive and that they would kill me.
24 Q. On the 16th, before you sought refuge in the house of
25 Elvir Ahmic, can you estimate how many soldiers you saw
1 passing by you throughout the day?
2 A. During that day, I saw at least 100 soldiers, because
3 they were passing by me non-stop, going up and down.
4 MR. HARMON: All right. Adnan, if you would now please
5 continue with your narrative, describing to the judges
6 what happened once you got inside --
7 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps before we proceed with the witness's
8 narrative, I do not know how long it is going to be as
9 far as the second part goes, but it might be appropriate
10 to take a break. It is 11.10 and we will resume at
11 11.30. The court stands adjourned.
12 (11.10 am)
13 (A short break)
14 (11.30 am)
15 JUDGE JORDA: The court is back in session. Please bring in
16 the accused, Mr. Registrar.
17 (Accused brought in)
18 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon, we are now going to be hearing the
19 second part of the testimony of the witness. Now, the
20 Chamber will be adjourning at 12.30 and then we will be
21 resuming at 2.45 pm this afternoon.
22 Adnan, you are going to go ahead as you did this
23 morning and then the counsel for the Prosecution will be
24 putting questions to you. Please proceed.
25 MR. HARMON: Adnan, would you please then continue with your
1 narrative. Tell the judges what happened next?
2 A. After I entered the house of Mirsad Ahmic, which is
3 marked with the number 6, that house was on fire. The
4 walls were very hot, I started going upstairs. I was
5 walking up the staircase to the landing leading to the
6 upper floor, so that is the part where the steps stop
7 and then they continued on upstairs. When I got there,
8 I was too dizzy to make it all the way up, so I decided
9 to lie down there. So I lay down and I simply lost
10 consciousness. I was unconscious for two days and two
11 nights, and after two days and two nights I came to. It
12 was early in the morning, it had not dawned yet, and in
13 front of my eyes, I was seeing the images of these mass
14 killings, those images were coming back, and the image
15 of the entire village on fire.
16 I waited until the dawn broke, and I then climbed
17 to the upper floor of the house. From the top floor,
18 I did not move from there at all, I was there for eight
19 days, in fact I only left it on the eighth day. During
20 the time that I spent in the house of Mirsad Ahmic,
21 marked as number 6, I saw many dead bodies. I saw my
22 own family, which is marked with letter D; I saw Husein
23 Ahmic, who is marked with letter F, that is an older
24 man, maybe 55 years of age; I also saw Zahir, who is
25 marked with letter E; I saw two -- I do not know who
1 they were, but they were civilians, and they are marked
2 with letter I. Since the distance was a bit greater
3 there, I could only notice that they were civilians.
4 I also saw Mineta Ahmic, who is marked with H, she
5 was lying in a barn. The door was ajar so that from the
6 window, I could observe that this was Mineta. Next to
7 her, I saw someone else, but I was not sure who that
8 was, but there was someone else next to her and later
9 I learned, after I had made my way out, I found out that
10 it was her son, Semir, who was eight years old. That is
11 Semir Ahmic.
12 During the time I was in this house, the Milicevic
13 family --
14 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, Adnan, before I interrupt you, before
15 you proceed with the rest of your narrative, I would
16 like to show you two exhibits. If they could be placed
17 on the ELMO successively, Mr. President, the first would
18 be Exhibit 142 and the next exhibit, if the usher could
19 take that with him to the ELMO, would be Exhibit 136/1.
20 If we could start with the small exhibit, 142, and place
21 that on the ELMO, Mr. President and counsel, 142 is also
22 accompanied by a legend which the witness has had an
23 opportunity to inspect and confirm the accuracy of the
24 A, B and C letters on 142.
25 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.
1 MR. HARMON: Adnan, what has been placed on the ELMO in front
2 of you is Prosecutor's Exhibit 142, and starting with
3 the letter A, is that the house of Mirsad Ahmic, the
4 house where you were hiding during those number of days?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Is the house with the letter B, is that your house?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And the letter C is the house of Nurija Ahmic, is that
9 correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Your family was executed somewhere between your house,
12 which is letter B, and the house indicated by the letter
13 A, correct?
14 A. Yes, between our house and Mirsad's house and Zahir's
15 house, which cannot be seen because it is blocked by the
16 view of my house.
17 MR. HARMON: Now Mr. Usher if you could place Prosecutor's
18 Exhibit 136/1 on the ELMO, Adnan, this is an exhibit
19 that was previously introduced last week. The house on
20 the left, do you recognise that house?
21 A. Yes, this is my house.
22 Q. The house that is a little bit off centre to the right,
23 is that also the house of Nurija Ahmic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In your narrative testimony just a few minutes ago, you
1 indicated that you had seen two civilian bodies and
2 those are indicated at location I on Prosecutor's
3 Exhibit 141. You see in the Exhibit 136/1 there are a
4 number of bodies that are next to your house; can you
5 see that in that exhibit?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Were those bodies, given their location, were those
8 bodies visible from your hiding place in Mirsad Ahmic's
9 house?
10 A. No, they were not visible.
11 Q. Adnan, those bodies are different from the bodies that
12 are located at point I on Prosecutor's Exhibit 141;
13 those are other bodies?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. Usher, I am finished with those
16 exhibits.
17 Adnan, would you please continue then with your
18 narrative.
19 A. So the following days which I spent in this house
20 (indicates), the Milicevic family, they are marked with
21 number 8, they returned their families to their homes,
22 because on 15th April they had taken them away. They
23 continued to live there normally, routinely, as if
24 nothing had happened, whereas the Papic family, which is
25 marked with number 9, and the Papic -- Dragan Papic's
1 family, which has not been marked on this map and it is
2 located right next by the road, so all these families,
3 the Papics were at the location number 9, where this
4 marking of X in the middle of that circle, that is where
5 the machine-gun nest was and there was a basement there
6 where these two families were placed.
7 The machine-gun nest was at the corner of this
8 house and it had like sandbags stacked up, and as far as
9 I could notice from the distance from which I was
10 observing, this could have been sandbags, and there was
11 something like a machine-gun placed there, and
12 occasionally, this weapon would be fired from, and the
13 little forest here (indicates) between the Milicevic
14 family home marked with 8 and the house marked with 9,
15 so the forest between the two of them, occasionally
16 I would see from there that it was an anti-aircraft gun
17 or maybe submachine-gun placed on a truck, so it was a
18 heavy piece of weapon, and occasionally this weapon
19 would shoot at the Gornji Ahmici, upper Ahmici.
20 The Milicevic also brought a big truck covered
21 with a canvas canopy to their house and they unloaded
22 something from it, I could not see what it was, it was
23 covered by this canvas canopy, it could have been
24 ammunition or something but I was not able to see what
25 it was.
1 Also in Sakib Pezer's house -- this house is at
2 the intersection that leads up towards Ahmici from the
3 main road -- Vlatko Kupreskic came in a vehicle, a small
4 blue Yugo, with a couple of other people. I do not know
5 who these other people were, but I was able to recognise
6 him. They entered the house and next to the house was
7 some kind of like a carpentry shop. They were bringing
8 something out of both the house and the shop, I do not
9 know, I could not observe what it was that they were
10 bringing out, but they were bringing it out from both
11 the house and the shop.
12 On the sixth day, that is from the day of the
13 attack, I think it was in the afternoon, a truck
14 appeared at the intersection where I had been shot, and
15 it came to a stop there. I was in the house and I was
16 watching from the windows, actually still watching my
17 parents. The truck came to collect the dead bodies.
18 When I heard the truck arriving, I hid. There was a
19 three-seater sofa in there, it was against a wall.
20 I moved it, but that is where I was spending my nights,
21 that is where I would sleep.
22 When I would hear something, some noises, this is
23 where I would go to hide, so that day, when I heard this
24 truck arriving, I immediately hid behind there, and you
25 could hear voices down there, somebody entered the house
1 with -- talked on the radio, I could not make out what
2 he was saying and the other one came upstairs. I think
3 he was just checking to see whether there was something
4 or someone upstairs, so he just peeked through the door
5 into the room where I was and then he went back. He
6 also checked the other rooms and then he went back
7 downstairs. I did not see him because I was behind this
8 sofa, I was hidden there, and after that, they collected
9 the dead bodies and shortly thereafter, the truck left.
10 After I was assured there were no noises any more,
11 I came out from behind where I was hiding, and I looked
12 and there were none of the dead bodies were there any
13 more. I followed the truck visually from the window,
14 and it turned off and stopped in front of my house,
15 which is marked with number 1. It parked in front of
16 the entrance to my house, and from the bottom floor,
17 since it had not burned down -- we were actually
18 preparing to open up a store there, so we had some flour
19 and some oil and some other basic foods there. They
20 just picked all that up and loaded it on to the truck.
21 What I forgot to say is that whilst they had still
22 not collected the dead bodies, my sister Melisa -- I am
23 now going back to the first day as I lay there wounded
24 -- I saw her on the ground next to my mother, but when
25 I came to and I looked out of the window, I could not
1 see my sister Melisa. She had disappeared. It was just
2 my parents, my father, my mother and my sister Alisa.
3 My sister Melisa was simply not there, she had simply
4 disappeared. Her story, this is what actually happened
5 to her, when our mother was hit, she pulled her down to
6 the ground and she simply either fainted or went to
7 sleep there next to her, and remained there for two days
8 and two nights, and after those two days, she
9 presumably -- yes, she got up and Elvir Ahmic noticed
10 her. He and his own sister at that time were trying to
11 leave the village, so he spotted her and he called her
12 over to join them and to try to make it to the upper
13 village.
14 She refused, she told him that she was not going,
15 that she was waiting for the mummy to wake up, because
16 she thought that mum was asleep, she did not know that
17 she was dead.
18 Elvir and his sister went in the direction to the
19 upper village, and up there he ran into the Croat
20 soldiers, I think it was the Jokers. They stopped him
21 and as far as I know they took him to the camp, but
22 before they took him there, they asked him whether there
23 was anybody alive down there. He told them about my
24 sister, and one of them -- in fact one of them was sent
25 down to find my sister and to bring her so that she
1 would be taken to the camp together with Elvir and his
2 sister. This soldier, when he came down there, when my
3 sister heard that somebody was approaching, she lay down
4 next to my mother and pretended to sleep.
5 When the soldier came there, based on the
6 description of Elvir's, the spot where my sister was, he
7 realised that this is who it was. He called her a few
8 times, she would not respond, then he picked her up and
9 carried her to Elvir.
10 When he brought her to Elvir, to the place where
11 Elvir and his sister were waiting to be taken to the
12 camp, the soldier who was carrying my sister approaching
13 him and Elvir called my sister, she opened up her eyes
14 and told the soldier to put her down, that she could
15 walk. So my sister was taken to Elvir and they were
16 first taken to some house in Santici and then to the
17 camp in Dubravica, and then when I found my way out, she
18 was released from the camp.
19 I would like to request of your Honours that if
20 I missed anything, if I omitted anything, that Mr. Harmon
21 remind me of it.
22 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Adnan. You are not too tired, you
23 are all right?
24 A. I am fine.
25 JUDGE JORDA: You have stood up well, thank you.
1 Counsel, I assume you have some questions for the
2 witness. Go right ahead.
3 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Adnan, you mentioned that you saw a Croat by the
5 name of -- an individual by the name of Vlatko Kupreskic
6 going in and out of Pezer's shop. Was Vlatko Kupreskic
7 a Croat?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was he a member of the HVO, to your knowledge?
10 A. I do not know.
11 Q. You also mentioned that you saw -- let me rephrase the
12 question.
13 You also mentioned, Adnan, that your father and
14 mother had been intending to open up a shop and that
15 there were a number of provisions inside your house and
16 that you saw individuals going into your house and
17 taking those provisions out. Can you describe those
18 people who went in and out of your house and took those
19 provisions out?
20 A. They were in camouflage uniforms and, as far as I can
21 recall, it was one or two men were in civilian clothes.
22 There were five or six of them altogether.
23 Q. Do you know what kind of provisions your father and
24 mother had stocked for their future shop?
25 A. Yes, flour, maybe about five tonnes, oil, maybe 20
1 cases, some sugar, salt, chocolate, candy and other
2 provisions, house provisions.
3 Q. The soldiers that were going in and out of your house
4 were not UNPROFOR soldiers in camouflage uniforms, were
5 they?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Next I would like to very quickly turn your attention to
8 the truck and the people who were coming to collect the
9 bodies. Did those body collectors also include Muslims
10 as far as you could see?
11 A. Yes, there were Muslim prisoners there who were in the
12 camp. They were collecting the bodies, supervised by
13 the soldiers.
14 Q. You were ultimately rescued then, were you not, after a
15 number of days by UNPROFOR soldiers, Adnan?
16 A. Shall I continue my story about my rescue?
17 Q. Please, very briefly describe your rescue.
18 A. The eighth day, I noticed the UNPROFOR people in the
19 village of Pirici. There were six personnel carriers,
20 and they were making their way slowly to the village of
21 Ahmici. There were three on the main road and three
22 were on this byroad going up to Ahmici. That is where
23 they came to a stop and the UNPROFOR personnel came out
24 and were observing the village from their vehicles.
25 I saw all this from the house, and I felt that this
1 would be my only chance if I tried to go towards them
2 and maybe they could help me to get out of the village,
3 so I left the house.
4 Since I was wounded in the leg, I staggered,
5 always holding on to some fence or something similar,
6 and I went until about Hidajet's house and this is down
7 the road that leads towards the mosque. Hidajet's
8 house, by the way, is not marked here.
9 I came to beyond Hidajet's house to a field and
10 the UNPROFOR was diagonally across but I could see them
11 clearly. I decided that I would call them from there,
12 because I was afraid to move any farther in order not to
13 be seen by anyone. Nobody would see me from either the
14 soldiers or anybody from the families of Papic or
15 Milicevic, so from there I called out to the UNPROFOR
16 people and I said, "come on, help me", in English, and
17 then I saw them turning around, I saw them having
18 noticed me. I lay down into the grass which was pretty
19 high, so that nobody else would notice, spot me there.
20 After that, when I noticed that they had spotted me,
21 when they had heard me, I called out once more time and
22 I continued to lie in the grass.
23 I heard the engines running, and the first thing
24 that crossed my mind was that the personnel carriers
25 were leaving. I thought that maybe they think that it
1 is some kind of a trap or something like that, and
2 I thought that they must be leaving.
3 However, the personnel carriers appeared between
4 the houses, and then I could see that they were coming
5 towards me. Three personnel carriers came over to me
6 and the UNPROFOR personnel came out. They dressed my
7 wounds just superficially at first and they took me into
8 the vehicle. They did not have an interpreter with
9 them, and I had a little bit of English. They asked me
10 whether there were any other people around there, and
11 they told me that they were taking me to Travnik, to the
12 hospital. However I requested to be taken to Zenica, so
13 we somehow communicated with words and as far as I could
14 understand, they were telling me that they could not
15 take me to Zenica because of some shooting, but only to
16 Travnik.
17 So they put me into this vehicle and I was taken
18 to the Travnik hospital. I was in the hospital for
19 three days and on the fourth day, I was released.
20 Q. One last question, Adnan. You said you saw some Muslim
21 civilians who were detainees collecting the corpses.
22 Could you recognise any of those Muslims? Did you know
23 any of them?
24 A. No, I could not recognise anyone then, but after the war
25 I met a guy who was one of the people collecting the
1 dead bodies. He is from Vitez too. He was detained in
2 a camp, he was a detainee.
3 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I have concluded my examination of
4 Adnan Zec and I would move into evidence Prosecutor's
5 Exhibit 141 and the attached legend and I would also
6 move to introduce Exhibit 142 and the attached legend.
7 Thank you, Adnan.
8 JUDGE JORDA: There is no objection from the Defence, so 141
9 and 142, those exhibits can be introduced into evidence.
10 Now Adnan, as the counsel for the Prosecution
11 probably told you, this is a court of law, we have the
12 accused here, General Blaskic, who has been accused with
13 serious charges. It is now perfectly legitimate for his
14 counsel to put some questions to you.
15 Mr. Nobilo, you will be putting the questions, is
16 that right?
17 Cross-examined by MR. NOBILO
18 Q. Yes, your Honour, thank you.
19 Mr. Zec, good morning. My name is Anto Nobilo and
20 together with my colleague Russell Hayman, I am the
21 attorney of General Blaskic and I would like to ask a
22 few questions in relation to what you have been telling
23 us about.
24 A month before the conflict, in April, you saw at
25 the bungalow the army that came in. Is it true that you
1 told the investigators who questioned you before that
2 some of them wore green camouflage uniforms and others
3 had black uniforms?
4 A. I am not sure. Perhaps accidentally I got mixed up.
5 The soldiers of the 16th April and the soldiers from
6 October, perhaps I got mixed up and I said differently,
7 but I am not sure at any rate.
8 Q. So you are not sure, thank you. During your first
9 questioning, is it true that you drew the patches that
10 you saw then? Do you remember that, that you drew
11 patches for the investigators?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you draw the patches that you could recollect at
14 that point?
15 A. I do not know.
16 Q. Did you draw a HV emblem patch then?
17 A. I do not know.
18 Q. In your previous questionings, at any point did you
19 mention HV patches that any of the soldiers had on any
20 occasion?
21 A. As far as I can remember, yes.
22 Q. Was it written down in your statements?
23 A. I think so.
24 Q. You saw HV patches on two occasions, twice, is that
25 correct?
1 A. No, I saw HV patches like all the others throughout the
2 day -- you mean HV patches at the bungalow?
3 Q. Yes. How many people were there at the bungalow with HV
4 patches?
5 A. I do not know.
6 Q. During the day, as they were running by -- you said that
7 you were lying there and they were running by, how many
8 people did you see with HV patches?
9 A. I do not know.
10 Q. Now I would be interested in the following: when at the
11 cross-roads you mentioned, on the one hand there is a
12 road going to the minaret, to the mosque, and the other
13 road leads to upper Ahmici, you see the picture here, C,
14 B. Tell me, these soldiers who were moving towards the
15 mosque, how were they moving? Were they walking, were
16 they running, were they crawling? Can you remember
17 that?
18 A. It is as if they were hiding from someone.
19 Q. Were they shooting in that direction towards the mosque?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. At what distance -- from what distance did you hear
22 them? We know that you were there at the intersection
23 and you know where the mosque was. Where were they
24 approximately as they were shooting towards the mosque?
25 A. Very close to me. Mirsad's house, Husein's house, along
1 the road.
2 Q. So by Husein's and Mirsad's house, they were there and
3 they were shooting from there towards the mosque?
4 A. Yes, towards the mosque and towards the upper part of
5 the village.
6 Q. Towards the upper part of the village, yes. Can you
7 tell me what time it was approximately? I know it was
8 very difficult in that situation, but at least roughly
9 what time of the day, when they were shooting towards
10 the mosque and the upper part of the village?
11 A. It was in the morning.
12 Q. Was it early morning or just before noon, could you tell
13 me that perhaps?
14 A. When I had arrived, it was 5.00 or 5.30 -- I cannot
15 really orient myself, it is difficult.
16 Q. All right. Can you tell me how many people were
17 involved in the fighting towards the mosque, how many
18 people did you see?
19 A. The army, these men were coming and going. They were
20 going up there towards Zijad's house too. As far as
21 I can remember, I already mentioned that that day, I saw
22 over 100 people.
23 Q. 100 people were coming and going?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were these the same people or different people? You do
1 not know actually how many people you saw.
2 A. At any rate, not less than 100.
3 Q. Thank you. Do you include in these 100 the people who
4 were coming back? Do you know that the same people
5 would come and go by you several times?
6 A. I do not know.
7 Q. Tell me, the neighbours, Croats, men, did they wear
8 uniforms before the conflict, most of them, or all of
9 them?
10 A. Mr. Dragan Papic, I can say that throughout the period
11 from October to April wore black uniform all the time.
12 I do not know if I ever saw him without a black uniform
13 and he also had a flag on his house.
14 Q. You do not have to tell me about every one of them now.
15 The younger Croats, did they wear uniforms before the
16 fighting?
17 A. Younger Croats, I am not sure, but one of the
18 Milicevics, I think he did, yes.
19 Q. These neighbours of yours, did they go to the front-line
20 or were they only there in the village?
21 A. I do not know.
22 Q. Thank you. Did you give the investigators a note about
23 who is responsible for the killings in Nadioci, a note
24 that you wrote in accordance to what your aunt told you?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I would like to read it to you now and tell me is that
2 that note:
3 "Miroslav Bralo, called Cicko, from the village of
4 Nadioci said, 'yesterday in Ahmici I slaughtered and
5 killed everyone and torched everything and now you are
6 next'. Then he took out a bloody knife and he said,
7 'now you are next'. He was referring to the civilians
8 who are kept in a house above Nadioci from the village
9 of Loncari. Miroslav Bralo, Cicko, also said that he
10 killed 17 Muslims from Nadioci on a tractor on which
11 they were moving towards Muslim territory."
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Would you explain to us how this note was written and is
14 it true, or rather did I read correctly what you wrote
15 then?
16 A. Yes, you read it properly. It is the story of my aunt,
17 who was a prisoner there in that house, and who heard
18 this conversation, or rather what he was saying, and it
19 related to them.
20 Q. And you wrote it down then so that you would not forget
21 it?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Tell me, do you know anything about the establishment of
24 checkpoints in the village of Ahmici, in October, within
25 the village of Ahmici?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you explain it to us in a couple of sentences what
3 happened?
4 A. There was a checkpoint below my house, so my house is
5 number 1, so this is a curve below my house
6 (indicates). It was a checkpoint to prevent the Croat
7 army from passing towards Novi Travnik.
8 Q. Who established the checkpoint?
9 A. The TO.
10 Q. What did it consist of, this checkpoint, this roadblock?
11 A. A few hedgehogs and nothing else.
12 Q. Mines?
13 A. I cannot remember. Can I ask or can I explain the
14 reason for this?
15 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, proceed, counsel.
17 MR. HARMON: Questioning about checkpoints was not gone into
18 on direct examination. He merely recounted the story of
19 the massacre of his family and his survival, so I would
20 object, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, objection sustained. I was about to
22 myself in respect of the note which had not been
23 addressed in the course of examination, so please,
24 Mr. Nobilo, move on to another question.
25 MR. NOBILO: Very well, Mr. President. I certainly accept
1 that the cross-examination has to relate to the
2 examination-in-chief, so we are going to conclude our
3 questioning now and we are going to reserve the right to
4 perhaps call this witness during our part of the trial.
5 Thank you.
6 JUDGE JORDA: We will see about that in due time,
7 Mr. Nobilo.
8 MR. HAYMAN: I think my colleague's point, your Honour --
9 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, go right ahead.
10 MR. HAYMAN: It might be efficient if Mr. Nobilo has a couple
11 of questions which are beyond the scope and perhaps the
12 Prosecution would even agree to do that now, rather than
13 have him come all the way back in our case. We simply
14 raise that possibility. We do not wish to inconvenience
15 the witness.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Hayman. To tell you the truth, the
17 court would be quite reluctant to have the witness
18 return in a few weeks or a few months time, I can tell
19 you that right now. The court had decided on something
20 quite clear-cut, that is to say the cross-examination
21 had to be suited, adjusted to the examination-in-chief.
22 Now this goes for you today, but the same will apply
23 when you are making your case. I will say the same
24 thing to the Prosecution. That is the rule, I do not
25 know if we can call it a rule, in a very flexible
1 manner, I did not interrupt you, for instance, when
2 Mr. Nobilo asked the question about the note that had
3 been submitted to the investigators, I was waiting for
4 an objection on the part of the Prosecution in fact,
5 because there is going to be these questions and we have
6 already dwelled on a sufficient number of painful
7 matters.
8 Now let me see, do you want to ask some additional
9 questions, redirect, react to the questions from the
10 Defence, Mr. Harmon?
11 Re-examined by MR. HARMON
12 Q. Adnan, you mentioned in one of your answers to Mr. Nobilo
13 that Dragan Papic hung a flag out of his house. What
14 kind of a flag was that?
15 A. As far as I know, it is the flag of Croatia.
16 MR. HARMON: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Let me just -- fellow judges,
18 Judge Riad? So we are going to proceed to a recess,
19 that way the witness will also be able to rest a bit,
20 and we are going to resume at 2.45 this afternoon.
21 (12.25 pm)
22 (Adjourned until 2.45 pm)
23
24
25
1 (2.45 pm)
2 JUDGE JORDA: The court is back in session. Please bring in
3 the accused, Mr. Registrar.
4 (Accused brought in)
5 JUDGE JORDA: So we are going to resume. Adnan, did you
6 have lunch, you have rested up a bit? How do you feel,
7 do you feel okay? Good. We have just about done, but
8 the judges would like to put some additional questions
9 to you. I am going to immediately cede the floor to
10 Judge Riad.
11 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Mr. Adnan. You have been sadly
12 present in these very unhappy events where you lost your
13 family. I believe your direct experience can help us
14 visualise the global picture of your first-hand
15 knowledge.
16 I would like to start with the beginning of your
17 testimony. You mentioned that before the events, which
18 was 15th April, the Croatian children did not attend
19 school, and at another phase of your testimony, you
20 mentioned that Croats like Papic and Milicevic left
21 their homes and came back several days later. That was
22 before the events happened? When the children did not
23 come to school, everything was still quiet?
24 A. No, they took their families towards the dusk on April
25 15th.
1 Q. But there was no shooting then or anything?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did the media announce that there would be shooting or
4 anything, or they did it quietly?
5 A. Exactly, nobody knew anything.
6 Q. Except they seemed to have known, I mean otherwise they
7 would not have left, there was some kind of agreement
8 among them to leave?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Some kind of planning, let us say?
11 A. Yes, you could say that way. That is, among the Croats.
12 Q. Among the Croats. When we come to the killing phase,
13 I want first to know, when your father was killed, was
14 he -- did he have any weapon on him, was he fighting
15 back?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Was your mother shot at or was she killed by accident
18 and your sister, I think your sister Alisa, were they
19 executed or just shot at because there was shooting
20 everywhere?
21 A. It is impossible that they were shot accidentally, and
22 if it is necessary, I can clarify further.
23 Q. I do not need that, I just want to know. So people were
24 shot even without fighting or without carrying weapons,
25 men as well as women, as well as children?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And without any discrimination, anybody would be shot?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You mentioned that there were walkie-talkies and there
5 were radio transmitters, you heard orders given from
6 soldiers to other soldiers to execute orders; you heard,
7 for instance, that on the transmitter they were asking
8 for explosives to lower Ahmici. Was there any attack to
9 lower Ahmici; why did they need the explosives for lower
10 Ahmici? Was there anybody attacking from lower Ahmici?
11 Did they need to defend anything? What were the
12 explosives for?
13 A. They asked for the explosives for the lower mosque in
14 Ahmici. As I said before, they attacked us and we were
15 unarmed, we completely did not expect any kind of
16 attack. For instance the case of my own family, we were
17 all at home asleep.
18 Q. You said there were 100 soldiers shooting towards upper
19 Ahmici with machine-guns placed on a truck. Was there
20 anybody shooting back? Were these 100 soldiers attacked
21 to shoot back or what was it, was it a battle or were
22 they shooting to destroy something?
23 A. I do not believe that there was any battle, any
24 fighting.
25 Q. In all the events you saw, the man killed your parents,
1 and the other people you saw from where you were living,
2 and the others you noticed, did you have the impression
3 that there were unrelated groups, each group doing what
4 he wants, or was it an organised team acting with
5 co-ordination and according to hierarchy and orders? Do
6 you understand me? Was it just something which lacked
7 organisation, anarchy, you know, or a team, well
8 organised, of soldiers?
9 A. From what I could see, my inference is that this was a
10 very well planned and well organised operation.
11 Q. And orders would be obeyed and given from one to other?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Nobody would do what he likes?
14 A. No.
15 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Mr. Adnan.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Judge Riad.
17 Judge Shahabuddeen, will you also be putting
18 questions to the witness?
19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Adnan Zec, I have two small
20 questions for you, and they probably are not terribly
21 important either. The first one is this: you went to
22 school on the 15th April; where was that school?
23 A. In Vitez.
24 Q. The second question is this: after you were shot and you
25 managed eventually to get up, you entered a building and
1 you remained there for some time. I think the building
2 was at point 6 on the diagram. Could you refresh me by
3 telling me how long you stayed in that building?
4 A. About seven days. Also that means I was outside for one
5 day, and I was inside seven days, so eight days in total
6 before I came out.
7 Q. My question is this: during that time, did you find
8 anything to eat or to drink?
9 A. I had water, so I only drank water and I found a little
10 bit of jam, like marmalade, and nothing else.
11 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you very much.
12 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Well, we are done, Adnan Zec. You
13 have stood up very well indeed, this evoked a lot of
14 suffering for you and the Tribunal would like to thank
15 you again and wishes you the best in future, that you
16 recover your peace of mind. I am not going to ask you
17 what you are doing now because we do not want to
18 identify you, but you are a young man and we do hope you
19 will be making the most of your life in future.
20 Mr. Registrar, perhaps we could lower the blinds so
21 that the witness might leave the courtroom without being
22 seen from the public gallery. We do want to enforce the
23 protective measures as best we can.
24 (The witness withdrew)
25 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, you are going to be speaking on
1 behalf of the Prosecution. We are listening to you.
2 Proceed, please.
3 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President, thank you. Good afternoon,
4 your Honours. The next witness is a woman by the name
5 of Djula Dzidic. As with the other witness, the only
6 protective measure that Ms Dzidic requests is a facial
7 distortion, no body distortion, so she is not viewed on
8 television. I have discussed this with Mr. Nobilo prior
9 to commencement of this afternoon's session.
10 With regard to the evidence to be offered by
11 Ms Dzidic, and I will say, your Honour, we will be quite
12 brief with this witness, we will not go through
13 repetition on this witness, she does offer us another
14 view within several areas of Zume, which is part of
15 Santici, where camouflage and black-clad soldiers were
16 operating together in unison.
17 In addition, she will offer us evidence on the
18 direct killings by these soldiers of Ismail Ahmic, Mujo
19 Ahmic and Fadil Pezer. She will then recount exactly
20 what happened to her thereafter at the hands of other
21 HVO soldiers, again dressed in camouflage, being moved
22 to an HVO location near the Pican cafe and then the
23 taking of her, along with approximately 50 other women
24 and children, to the Dubravica school, walking in a
25 column, taking them to Dubravica school.
1 I will say this, Mr. President, consistent with
2 your instructions, we have photographs of her brothers
3 who were killed that day, never seen again, and with the
4 court's permission I will introduce those, because I do
5 not really think that she will make it through that.
6 JUDGE JORDA: She has agreed to being shown those
7 photographs?
8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President, but I will tell, consistent
9 with Mr. President, your instructions, I will describe
10 what the photographs are so she does not have to,
11 because I think she will get very upset about that.
12 JUDGE JORDA: Fine. I think that is the right way to do
13 it. Now we are going to proceed as we did this
14 morning. I was grateful to Mr. Harmon for having gone
15 ahead in that way, I think it is efficient and I think
16 Mr. Harmon did ask any questions he had, so I do think it
17 is a good idea to let the witness -- for witnesses to be
18 allowed to express themselves freely and then you put
19 the questions which you think are particularly relevant
20 for the case of the Prosecution.
21 Now Mr. Registrar, if you could have Ms. Dzidic
22 brought in, please.
23 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, if I could also ask the Registrar
24 to pull out Exhibit 120. We have two previously marked
25 exhibits and then 120, please.
1 JUDGE JORDA: Fine, thank you.
2 (Witness entered court)
3 JUDGE JORDA: Can you hear me?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 JUDGE JORDA: Now you are going first of all to simply tell
6 me your first and last name, since that can be
7 disclosed, just your first and last name. Ms.?
8 THE WITNESS: Djula Dzidic.
9 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Now if you would please read out
10 the solemn declaration. Please remain seated when you
11 do so. We are listening to you.
12 MS. DJULA DZIDIC (sworn)
13 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, madam. Now you have received
14 protective measures, the Defence has gone along with
15 that, the court has accepted it as well, so you can
16 speak freely before the judges who, of course, are going
17 to be giving you their full attention. There will be a
18 few, short bit of questions relating to identification,
19 then you will testify quite freely, in your own words,
20 about the essential aspects. You do not need to be too
21 lengthy, needless to say, and thereafter the counsel for
22 the Prosecution will put the questions to you relevant
23 to the case against General Blaskic. After that, the
24 Defence will be putting questions to you and then
25 thereafter the judges as well.
1 If you do feel tired, do not be shy, simply let me
2 know and we will take the appropriate measures so you
3 have a chance to have a rest. There you are, counsel
4 for the Prosecution, proceed, please.
5 Examined by MR. KEHOE
6 Q. Djula, how old are you?
7 A. I am 38 now and I was 33 then, so I would 38 by the end
8 of this year.
9 Q. Djula, on 16th April 1993, did you live in Zume with
10 your parents and your brothers and your family?
11 A. Yes, I lived with my mother and my brothers.
12 Q. How long had your family lived in Zume?
13 A. 21 years.
14 Q. Where had they moved from?
15 A. We moved from the village of Pirici.
16 Q. Zume is a part of Santici, is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Was Zume a relatively new village being started in
19 approximately 1970, 1971?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were there both Muslims and Croats living in Zume and
22 Santici?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Djula, you and your family are Muslims, is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Let us turn our attention to 16th April 1993, Djula, and
2 in your own words, tell the judges what happened to you
3 and your family on 16th April.
4 A. I will start on that morning. We did not know
5 anything. In the morning, it was about 5.15 on Friday,
6 the first explosion we heard was coming from the
7 neighbour's house, that is what woke us up. We got up
8 and in the meantime, a lot of bullets were fired into
9 the house, the windows and elsewhere, we could not get
10 out. First my mother and I were there, my oldest
11 brother lived in the summer kitchen with his wife and
12 two children, so my mother came out first, then I did,
13 so that we would not be there.
14 We crossed over to Mehmed Ahmic's house, and went
15 into his basement and after about 15 minutes I happened
16 to go upstairs and saw that our house was being
17 torched. I saw two neighbours who were going down the
18 road and they turned off and came to my house. They
19 belonged to the HVO. One of them called me out and
20 I came down. I heard the shooting meanwhile, and when
21 I approached, there was a dead body there and next to
22 the house, there were two other dead bodies. They were
23 lying on their stomachs.
24 I asked where to go next. He first asked me who
25 else was in the house, and I told him there was a woman
1 with two children and some elderly women and Mehmed
2 Ahmic and his wife. I said, "where are we to go?", and
3 he said, "to Vitez". So we started, we went along the
4 road and we arrived at Pican's cafe. There Zilic came
5 over, and he was in civilian clothes with a rifle, and
6 we said, "where now?", and he said, "to Dedic's garage",
7 and we were locked up there until 5.00.
8 Around 5.00, we went to Nesib Ahmic's house, but
9 there was another family of Hrjnic, the whole family was
10 brought there, husband, wife and two sons, and they
11 brought him and his youngest brother and wife and they
12 were locked up and we heard a shot and Mehmed Hrjnic,
13 his other son was lying on the floor. Then we went to
14 Nesib Ahmic's house. There we spent the whole night,
15 nobody was guarding us.
16 In the morning, they took us to a shop, which was
17 above Pican's house, and that day we spent there.
18 Sunday morning, we were taken to the camp.
19 Q. Let me ask you a few questions.
20 A. I would like to be asked questions, I would prefer to be
21 asked some questions.
22 Q. Let me ask a few questions about what happened on the
23 16th.
24 A. Please. Yes please.
25 MR. KEHOE: With the assistance of the Registrar, if I could
1 give the witness what has been previously marked as
2 143A, which is a map, and there is a legend attached to
3 that which is 143B. If I could ask the usher if we
4 could put this on the ELMO?
5 Djula, you see the map that is before you with the
6 circles, is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You assisted us in identifying the locations that are
9 circled, the houses that are circled, is that not right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Your house is number 1, is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you said that your oldest brother lived with his
14 family in the summer kitchen behind you.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Number 2 is Mehmed Ahmic's house?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You went to the second floor of Mehmed Ahmic's house,
19 did you not?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When you went to the second floor of Mehmed Ahmic's
22 house, did you see any HVO soldiers?
23 A. Yes, they were holding Pezer -- Mujo Ahmic and -- yes,
24 you could see everything.
25 Q. How many HVO soldiers did you see?
1 A. When I came downstairs, I saw a total of five. When
2 they called me out, when I came over to my house, I saw
3 a total of five of them. One was there when he was
4 calling me out, because they spotted me upstairs.
5 Q. How were these soldiers dressed?
6 A. They were in camouflage and black camouflage uniforms.
7 Q. So these soldiers that were dressed in camouflage and
8 black, did they seem to you to be working together?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now when you were looking down at the second floor, you
11 said that these soldiers had Ismail Ahmic, Mujo Ahmic
12 and Fadil Pezer in custody, is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Then you said that one of those HVO soldiers called you
15 downstairs, is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. On your way downstairs, did you hear any gun shots?
18 A. Yes, while I was coming down the stairs, I heard shots
19 and when I was coming out of the house of Mehmed Ahmic,
20 I heard the shots.
21 Q. When you got back downstairs, where were Ismail Ahmic,
22 Mujo Ahmic and Fadil Pezer?
23 A. Ismail Ahmic was in front of my house and Fadil Pezer
24 and Mujo Ahmic were at the corner of my house, up from
25 the staircase. They were lying down.
1 Q. Were they bleeding?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. They were lying in front of your house, which is marked
4 on the map as number 1, is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did they appear to you to be dead?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. These soldiers that you said were in camouflage and
9 black uniforms, did they have any coloured arm bands on
10 their epaulettes?
11 A. Yes, blue.
12 Q. Did they have any hand-held radios?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What type of radios did they have?
15 A. Black, it was black. Small like this (indicates) and
16 black.
17 Q. You also told the judges that you saw from Mehmed
18 Ahmic's house that your house was being set on fire, is
19 that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Tell the judges what you saw about how your house was
22 set on fire.
23 A. I saw them taking the gasoline and pouring it and then
24 setting it on fire. They had big canisters and they
25 started from the entrance door.
1 Q. Did you recognise any of these HVO soldiers?
2 A. No, they had socks on their faces, I could not.
3 Q. In addition to your house being set on fire, were other
4 houses around your house also being set on fire?
5 A. Yes, they were all on fire.
6 Q. Did you see this group of soldiers moving from house to
7 house to set them on fire?
8 A. Immediately when I was coming over to ask where to go
9 next, they just moved straight on to the next house, and
10 setting it afire, because they knew that the house was
11 empty. The moment we came out of Mehmed Ahmic's house
12 and were told to go to Vitez, that is what they did.
13 Q. Djula, let me turn your attention back to the house on
14 the ELMO. You identified your house as number 1 and
15 Mehmed Ahmic's house as number 2. Whose house is number
16 3?
17 A. Ismail Ahmic's.
18 Q. He was one of the men that was murdered in front of your
19 house?
20 A. Yes. Because they were going along the side of the
21 road, and they brought them to our house, so the
22 soldiers brought them over there so that my family would
23 come out too.
24 Q. Number 4 on the map, whose house is that? Is that Fadil
25 Pezer's house?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. He is another man that was murdered by HVO soldiers in
3 front of number 1?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Number 5 is whose house?
6 A. Of Sefik Pezer.
7 Q. Sefik Pezer is the father of Fadil Pezer, is that right?
8 A. No, Ibro is his father, Ibro Pezer. Also he was
9 killed.
10 Q. All these houses that you saw burning, as well as the
11 men that you saw murdered in front of your house, were
12 all the houses owned by Muslims and were all the men
13 that you saw murdered Muslims?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You said that you were told by one of these soldiers to
16 go towards Pican's cafe. Is that designated on the map
17 as number 6?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you see any soldiers around Pican's cafe when you
20 went down there?
21 A. They were in the cafe and one of them was outside, but
22 he was wearing civilian clothes, this Zilo Zilic, and
23 I asked him, "where shall we go?", because I thought he
24 was a civilian, and he told us to go to the Dedic
25 garage, but as we were going along the road, no, I did
1 not see anyone.
2 Q. As you were leaving the area from Ahmic Mehmed's house,
3 who went with you from Mehmed Ahmic's house to the Pican
4 cafe. Who went with you, without identifying; was it
5 your family?
6 A. Members of my family, and Mehmed Ahmic and his wife and
7 no one else.
8 Q. Were your two brothers with you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. What had happened to your two brothers?
11 A. I saw my brothers when they tried to get away to
12 Pirici. They crossed the fence and I never saw them
13 again.
14 Q. Continuing on, you were told when you got to Pican's
15 cafe, you were told to then go to Mujo Dedic's garage,
16 is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When you moved to Mujo Dedic's garage, which is
19 designated on the map as number 7, is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you see more soldiers moving from house to house in
22 that area?
23 A. No, I just saw these civilians as we were going towards
24 the garage. We found this family in the garage
25 already. I did not see anyone else, no.
1 Q. Did you see any soldiers around there at all?
2 A. No, only when we got out of the garage and that was 5.00
3 in the evening. No.
4 Q. In the garage, the Hrjnic family went into the garage
5 with you?
6 A. Yes, they came afterwards. We were there and they
7 brought them three hours after us. They brought them
8 subsequently, three hours after us, the army brought
9 them or someone.
10 Q. What happened then, after they brought the Hrjnics?
11 A. They were putting people gradually into the garage, one
12 by one, and then they were locking and unlocking the
13 garage, so they brought his wife and his younger son and
14 the husband and the older son remained. We heard
15 shooting, you could see it too, because they shot them
16 in the back with automatic rifles, because there was a
17 big hole in the garage door. So we could see, but we do
18 not know who they were, no. And they let us out of the
19 garage already around 5.00, they locked the door.
20 Q. When the shooting was going on, were there soldiers
21 outside?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did you see these soldiers?
24 A. I only saw two of them while they were lining these
25 people up to shoot them. I heard them.
1 Q. How were they dressed?
2 A. They were dressed the same way, they wore the same
3 uniforms, everything.
4 Q. What colour were these uniforms?
5 A. Camouflage uniforms.
6 Q. You said that you stayed in that garage for a period of
7 time until about 5.00?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you then go to Nesib Ahmic's house, which is
10 designated on the map as number 8?
11 A. Yes, it was a weekend cottage, the downstairs part had
12 been burned down, the upstairs not.
13 Q. What happened when you went into Nesib Ahmic's house?
14 A. We got into the cottage and we spent the night there,
15 upstairs. We were on our own, no one guarded us, we
16 could not go anywhere. But in the morning, at 7.30, on
17 Saturday, being civilians, we were taken to the building
18 where the shop was. Again, near Pican's cafe, we took
19 the same road. This was Saturday morning already.
20 Q. On the morning of the 17th, Saturday morning, did
21 someone come to Nesib Ahmic's house to talk to you, did
22 a Bosnian Croat come to that house?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Who was that?
25 A. Yes, our neighbour Vrebac came, he was not armed or
1 anything, it was as if he wanted to help us. We said we
2 wanted to go to Sivrino Selo and he said we could not
3 and then he took us to another house.
4 Q. The Vrebac family lives in the four sided roof house
5 that is on the map as number 9, is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the Vrebac family are Croats, are they not?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When you asked Vrebac to go to Sivrino Selo, did he tell
10 you why you could not go to Sivrino Selo?
11 A. No, we were not allowed to go because we would be killed
12 by the HVO, by their people. It was not safe for us.
13 They would not let us, so it was not safe to go
14 anywhere.
15 Q. Djula, who told you that if you went to Sivrino Selo you
16 would be killed by the HVO? Who told you that?
17 A. The man who brought us from that house, Vrebac, the one
18 who took us to the shop. We asked him, we did not have
19 anyone else to ask, so we asked him and he told us that.
20 Q. Then you went to a location that was marked on the map
21 as number 10, is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What happened at that location?
24 A. We got in there, we did not know that we will be
25 spending the entire night there. In the meantime,
1 various groups arrived, so we were all brought there
2 together, there were over 50 of us, women and children,
3 young people, some young people up to the ages of 13 or
4 14. Later on, they also brought in Ahmic Zenur, four
5 young men altogether. There were there for half an
6 hour, they rested up a bit and after that, a HVO soldier
7 came and said they could go, as if they were supposed to
8 collect dead bodies, but these people never came back,
9 I never saw them again, so that is where we spent the
10 entire night.
11 Anto Papic guarded us that night, and in the
12 morning the Croat women who lived nearby in the houses
13 wanted to bring us something to help us, and finally we
14 did not want anything. On Sunday morning at 7.30 again
15 we were taken to the camp by Nikica, to the school.
16 That is at the railway station, four kilometres away
17 from us in Dubravica. All the women and children were
18 all there.
19 Q. You said that men were taken out to dig trenches. Who
20 took the men out to dig trenches?
21 A. Yes, when we were put into the different class rooms,
22 women and children were in the class rooms, there were
23 men who were brought in from Vitez and we actually found
24 them there when we arrived. They were taken away to dig
25 trenches. This happened on Sunday, so various incidents
1 occurred. They would come back late in the evening. It
2 was simply terrible.
3 Q. Let me backtrack a second, I got ahead of myself. You
4 said that --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You said that four men were taken out to pick up
7 bodies. Did an HVO soldier take those men out to pick
8 up bodies?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How was that soldier dressed, or soldiers dressed?
11 A. In camouflage uniform.
12 Q. Did you see if he had any insignias on his uniform?
13 A. I did not pay attention. Fear. No.
14 Q. While you were at the location number 10, the HVO
15 headquarters in Santici, did you see UNPROFOR in the
16 area?
17 A. This was in the afternoon, Saturday afternoon, around
18 4.00 I think. They were coming and it was not that
19 I was the only woman, there were many women, so this
20 Ivica Vidovic, called Jevdjo, worked with them and we
21 asked for help to be taken away but he would not let us
22 come and talk to them at all, so I did not talk to them
23 at all.
24 Q. Let me ask you a question about that. You said you
25 wanted to talk to UNPROFOR. Who would not let you talk
1 to UNPROFOR?
2 A. Ivica Vidovic, Jevdjo, he would not let us talk to them,
3 no.
4 Q. Was Jevdjo, Ivica Vidovic, was he a member of the HVO?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So neither you nor any other women or children, or
7 anyone located at number 10, was permitted to talk to
8 UNPROFOR, is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You said that you ultimately were taken to the school at
11 Dubravica, is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How many people that were in this house were taken to
14 the school at Dubravica?
15 A. Some children, some women, 50 of us altogether. But as
16 far as the garage is concerned, there were 30 of them.
17 Q. So there were 30 in the garage and then there were 50
18 brought down to the Dubravica school, is that right?
19 A. Yes, and afterwards more people were brought in, on
20 Saturday more people were brought in.
21 Q. How did you get from the house in Santici to the
22 Dubravica school?
23 A. On foot, along the road. A HVO soldier took us, Nikica
24 Plavcic. He is the only one who went with us to
25 Dubravica. We walked on foot all the way along the
1 road.
2 Q. Did you walk in a column down the road?
3 A. Column, in a column.
4 Q. So there were 50, approximately 50, mostly women and
5 children, walking down the road with an HVO soldier
6 guarding you, down to the Dubravica school, is that
7 right?
8 A. Yes, just one.
9 Q. Ivica Plavcic was a member of the HVO?
10 A. Was.
11 Q. When you got to the Dubravica school, were there
12 soldiers at the Dubravica school?
13 A. Yes, we found soldiers at the school and they took us
14 over.
15 Q. Do you know what type of soldiers were at the Dubravica
16 school?
17 A. No, we did not know them at all, we only knew Marinko,
18 because he was responsible. This Plavcic Marinko, he
19 was the only one who was responsible for us, but not for
20 others.
21 Q. Did you see any members of the Vitezovi at the Dubravica
22 school?
23 A. They all had insignia and black uniforms. Most of them
24 had black uniforms, as far as we are concerned, I mean
25 the prisoners.
1 Q. Did you learn that some of them were members of the
2 Vitezovi?
3 A. I heard that, yes. That is some kind of special unit of
4 theirs, but I could not tell, really.
5 Q. If I can, with the assistance of the usher, if we could
6 place Exhibit 120 on the ELMO? This is a photograph
7 that has previously been received in evidence,
8 Mr. President.
9 Djula, I have shown you this photograph before, is
10 that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is your house in this photograph?
13 A. No, not A, the building in front of me, no.
14 Q. How about over to the right, the one marked C?
15 A. Yes, that is my house.
16 Q. That is your house?
17 A. My house.
18 Q. Okay. If we could then put 143A back on the ELMO.
19 Djula, you said that on the morning of the 16th,
20 your two brothers Nedzad and Muharem left the house when
21 the shooting started and you never saw them again. Did
22 you learn that they had been seen at the location number
23 11 on the map?
24 A. After we were exchanged by the Red Cross, I sought the
25 truth and the only thing I was told was that they
1 arrived there alive and that is all I know, and that is
2 the way it is until the present day. I also know
3 because of their clothes. My younger brother had a
4 sports suit and the other one just had -- my older
5 brother had trousers and a shirt and they both had shoes
6 and that is the only thing I remembered, nothing else
7 until the present day.
8 Q. When you saw your brothers that morning, were they
9 armed?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did they have uniforms on?
12 A. No, they were wearing civilian clothes.
13 Q. How old were your brothers on 16th April 1993?
14 A. I cannot remember exactly, I know that my older brother
15 was born on 25th May 1965 and my youngest brother was
16 born on 8th January 1972, but now this very moment
17 I cannot think of it, so my younger brother was 21 then,
18 I think, and the older one was about 30, not more than
19 30. I mean in 1963, so in 1993 ...
20 Q. You said you never saw your brothers after 16th April
21 1993. Did you or any family member recover their bodies
22 after that date?
23 A. No, never. I investigated and I wanted to get their
24 bodies, but no. We tried to identify them by their
25 clothes, because we got a list of the dead bodies that
1 were found, and that is how I came to this conclusion,
2 but no, we never found the bodies themselves, no.
3 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, as discussed previously, the
4 witness has given the Office of the Prosecutor two
5 photographs, marked at this point as 144/1, which is her
6 brother Nedzad, and 144/2, which is her brother
7 Muharem. We would offer those into evidence.
8 JUDGE JORDA: No objection from the Defence with regard to
9 introducing those to the case file?
10 MR. HAYMAN: Could we see them? (Handed). No objection,
11 your Honour.
12 JUDGE JORDA: So we have introduced these as evidence.
13 MR. KEHOE: Lastly, Mr. President, the location that is marked
14 number 11 was a house that was being built by a woman by
15 the name of Senada, is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, we would offer into evidence 143A,
18 which is the map, and 143B, which is the legend attached
19 to it.
20 JUDGE JORDA: That is fine, so we will enter those into
21 evidence. You have done, have you, counsel?
22 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President, I have no further questions.
23 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Madam, you are now going to be
24 questioned, as the Office of the Prosecutor will no
25 doubt have told you, by the counsel for
1 General Blaskic. It is Mr. Nobilo who is going to be
2 putting the questions to you. Please proceed, counsel.
3 Cross-examined by MR. NOBILO
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Miss Dzidic, as you have heard I am Anto Nobilo,
6 the attorney of General Blaskic, and Mr. Russell Hayman
7 is also General Blaskic's attorney. On behalf of the
8 Defence only one or two questions. Your brothers,
9 Muharem and Nedzad, were they members of the TO or the
10 BiH army?
11 A. My brothers, no. My brother worked and the other one,
12 no. My older brother worked at the Impregnacija, at the
13 railway station.
14 Q. Were they members of the TO or the BiH army?
15 A. No.
16 Q. When one of your brothers was getting dressed, did he
17 take part of a military uniform, did he ask you for part
18 of a military uniform?
19 A. No, he just asked for clothes. He asked for a vest, but
20 not a military vest. I know what I am saying. This is
21 a vest that I could wear or anybody could wear, you
22 know?
23 Q. Did you tell the investigators from the Office of the
24 Prosecutor that Nedzad asked you to give him his
25 military vest?
1 A. No.
2 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, no further questions.
3 JUDGE JORDA: Additional questions from the Prosecution?
4 MR. KEHOE: No, Mr. President, no further questions.
5 JUDGE JORDA: So my dear colleagues, do you have questions?
6 JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Ms. Djula Dzidic. I just
7 wanted to know, when you were in the school of
8 Dubravica, how long did you stay there?
9 A. From the 18th until the 22nd -- from the 18th until the
10 1st of May and we were registered on the 22nd when the
11 Red Cross came. The 18th in the morning until 1st May.
12 We only got out on 1st May and the Red Cross came on
13 22nd and they registered us all. They brought us food
14 and they also made it possible for us to wash,
15 et cetera.
16 Q. How was the treatment in this camp? Was it
17 a concentration camp? What was it like exactly?
18 A. For us it was terrible, but these were classrooms. It
19 is a school, you know, with classrooms, so there was a
20 hallway too and we were staying in the classrooms, that
21 is where we had beds also, they allowed us to have beds,
22 and that is where we stayed. But the camp, no, it is
23 like a school.
24 Q. Not like a prison?
25 A. It looked like a prison, but it is not a real prison,
1 not a real prison, because it is a school. We were not
2 allowed to go anywhere.
3 Q. But why were you taken there in the first place? Why
4 did they take you there?
5 A. Believe me, I have no idea. We were waiting for this
6 exchange, because allegedly we were supposed to be
7 exchanged and they did not have any place to put us. So
8 their army was there and that is why we were there.
9 They did not know what to do with us.
10 Q. Your house has been put on fire, you said that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you see who put it on fire? Were they soldiers or
13 people from the area? Who was putting the houses on
14 fire?
15 A. They were wearing military uniforms, naturally they were
16 soldiers, but who they were, I could not recognise
17 them. They were soldiers.
18 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Judge Shahabuddeen?
20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Miss Dzidic, you spoke about Pican's
21 cafe and you told us about a man whose name I think was
22 Zilo Dzidic, and you thought he was a civilian, do you
23 remember that?
24 A. No, Zilic.
25 Q. I am at fault. Did you know Mr. Zilic before that day?
1 A. Yes, he is one of the locals, he also had a shop there,
2 a butcher's shop, and he built a house there and that is
3 where -- there was a bus stop where I caught my bus when
4 I went to work to Travnik, I grew up there and I knew
5 practically everyone. He was a neighbour, he was
6 wearing civilian clothes, so I asked him to help us, but
7 he held a gun in his hands. That was all.
8 Q. During the time you knew him, did he always wear
9 civilian clothes?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were some of your neighbours also members of the HVO?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Tell me, your memory goes back to a time before the HVO
14 was formed?
15 A. Practically all that started in 1992, from 1992, yes.
16 Q. And you also saw the development of the Vitezovi?
17 A. No, I did not know that that was their name, it was all
18 the same to me.
19 Q. Was this the first time you saw the Vitezovi?
20 A. Yes, the conflict, yes.
21 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you.
22 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, madam. Your testimony is now
23 over. The Tribunal would like to thank you very much
24 for coming to testify here from so far away and we do
25 hope that you find peace of mind in future. Do not move
1 for the time being, we are going to see to the
2 appropriate protective measures, so we are going to let
3 the blinds down so that no one outside the courtroom can
4 see your face. There you are, I think that now you may
5 rise.
6 (The witness withdrew)
7 JUDGE JORDA: Now it is Ms Paterson. Good afternoon. You
8 are going to introduce the next witness? I assume that
9 we are keeping these protective measures up? It is a
10 protected witness we are talking about, and I suppose
11 you have talked to the Defence about it?
12 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Mr. President, this witness has requested
13 the same protection as the previous two witnesses
14 today. She just wants her face covered from the
15 television cameras and she is willing to allow us to use
16 her name. I informed Mr. Nobilo of this before the court
17 session this afternoon.
18 JUDGE JORDA: Fine. Before the witness comes into the room,
19 could you briefly tell us what your expectations are in
20 connection with the Prosecution's case against
21 General Blaskic? What is the witness going to be
22 testifying about? Who is the witness, first of all? Is
23 it a gentleman, a lady?
24 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Mr. President, this witness's name is Azra
25 Dedic. Her testimony in many ways will complement that
1 of the witness who has just finished. In fact, it was
2 the garage which belonged to Ms. Dedic's family where
3 the previous witness and Ms. Dedic were detained for a
4 period of time on 16th April 1993. Ms. Dedic will
5 describe what happened to her family and several of her
6 close neighbours on that day. She will be able to
7 describe sightings of a significant number of HVO
8 soldiers in the area. She will unfortunately describe
9 the death of her husband and son and several of her
10 neighbours and she will describe some of the same
11 incidents that followed that this witness has just
12 talked about, I think she can give complementary
13 testimony, I do not think it will really be repetitive.
14 As with the previous witness, I have a diagram
15 I will show her. She brought some family photographs
16 and the agreement I have with her concerning the
17 photographs is I will ask her at the time if she wants
18 to be shown the photographs. If she feels she is up to
19 it, I will show them to her; if not, I am prepared to
20 introduce them just as Mr. Kehoe did.
21 JUDGE JORDA: Fine, thank you very much. Now Mr. Registrar,
22 we can have Ms. Azra Dedic come in. How long do you
23 plan for her testimony to last, Ms Paterson?
24 MS. PATERSON: I think it will be approximately the same
25 length as the previous witness, no longer.
1 Approximately an hour, no more than an hour and a half.
2 (Witness entered court)
3 JUDGE JORDA: Can you hear me, madam?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 JUDGE JORDA: Fine, thank you for having come. First please
6 tell us your first and last names.
7 THE WITNESS: My name is Azra Dedic.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Fine, please remain seated and read the
9 declaration which the person next to you is going to
10 provide you with.
11 MS. AZRA DEDIC (sworn)
12 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Now Ms Paterson is going to put a
13 few questions to you and then you are going to talk
14 about the events you witnessed in your own words, in the
15 manner you see fit. In all likelihood thereafter the
16 counsel for the Prosecution will be putting some
17 questions to you in connection with the case against
18 General Blaskic. He has been accused and he has
19 counsel, and counsel for the Defence, of course, will be
20 putting questions to you as well.
21 Now, we could have some preliminary questions and
22 then we will listen to the narrative from Ms. Azra
23 Dedic.
24 Examined by MS. PATERSON
25 Q. Thank you, Mr. President.
1 Ms. Dedic, were you living in the village of
2 Santici in Bosnia-Herzegovina in April 1993?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. How long had you lived in that village?
5 A. 24 years.
6 Q. Would you tell the court who you were living with at
7 your home in April 1993, what family members lived with
8 you?
9 A. I lived with my husband and two sons that I had. Then
10 the older son, when he got married, he moved to a new
11 house and that is where he lived for seven months with
12 his wife and small baby Ilma, who is six months old.
13 Q. Would you tell the court the names of your husband and
14 your two sons?
15 A. My husband's name was Mustafa Dedic, the older son was
16 Fariz Dedic and the youngest, Haris Dedic.
17 Q. Did your husband, was he known by a nickname or a
18 shortened version of his first name?
19 A. His name was Mustafa, but they called him -- we all
20 called him Mujo. Everybody called him that, all
21 neighbours and everybody.
22 Q. Would you please tell the court the age of your two sons
23 in April 1993?
24 A. My son Fariz was three days short of being 23, and the
25 youngest son was -- they were six and a half years apart
1 so I would have to calculate, you see. So 23 and there
2 is -- the younger one was not adult yet.
3 Q. Are you and the members of your family Muslims?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In the months preceding April 1993, were either your
6 husband or either of your sons in the Territorial
7 Defence or in the army?
8 A. My son Fariz was in the Territorial Defence and my
9 husband worked in the Sumarija in Vitez, so he had work
10 duty.
11 Q. So in other words, instead of working for the TO or the
12 military, your husband was required to go to his regular
13 job every day, is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Ms. Dedic, I am going to ask you to tell the court what
16 happened to you and your family on 16th April, but
17 before you begin I would like to ask the usher to show
18 you an exhibit which I believe has been premarked number
19 145. This is an aerial photograph.
20 Could you please show it to the witness and put it
21 on the ELMO?
22 A. This is the main road leading to Vitez and Sarajevo. We
23 lived, looking from Vitez, to the right-hand side and
24 looking from Busovaca to the left-hand side, so our
25 houses were on the right-hand side, looking from Vitez.
1 I will start from D, that is my sister's house, Semra
2 Ribo. D is my son Fariz's house, and A is my house.
3 Q. Ms. Dedic, let me just interrupt for a moment. Your
4 son's house, is that B or D?
5 A. B.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 A. And my house is A, and E is the garage in front of my
8 house and C is Islam Ahmic's house, and D is Sefik
9 Ahmic's house, that is the brother of Islam.
10 Q. Ms. Dedic, let me just interrupt again. Is D the house
11 of your sister or the house of Sefik Ahmic?
12 A. D is my sister's. Number 2 is Sefik Ahmic's house. It
13 is only now that I saw it properly, so I apologise.
14 Q. Okay, you may continue.
15 A. That morning, 16th April, because my husband had this
16 work duty, like every day he went to catch the bus to go
17 first to Rijeka, not directly to Vitez, and the bus was
18 leaving 5.15, 5.30 and it had already started, he was
19 halfway down the hallway, I was following him, and we
20 heard the powerful explosion and he said, "Azra, it is
21 over, wake up Haris and let us move over to Fariz's
22 place". I went to the bedroom and I rose Haris and
23 I told him we were all going to Fariz's place.
24 Q. Ms. Dedic, can I just interrupt for a moment. I know
25 you are a little bit nervous. You are speaking very
1 fast; can you just slow down a little bit so the
2 interpreters can get everything you are saying?
3 A. Yes, I will. As I was going, that is crossing from my
4 house to my son's house, I lost the sight of my husband,
5 and as I was crossed over, I saw Islam Ahmic on his
6 balcony and he said, "where is Mustafa?", and I said,
7 "he went into Fariz's house". He said, "they are
8 shooting, I have been hit, go back into the house", and,
9 of course, I went into the house, that is my son's
10 house, and my son Haris followed me. When we were
11 inside, my husband was peeking occasionally through the
12 window, looking towards the main road.
13 At one point, he said, "there is a woman coming,
14 I do not know who it is, Azra". At that moment, he was
15 still peeking a little bit and he said, "they are
16 shooting", and the shooting was coming from all sides
17 and he told me and my little granddaughter and my
18 daughter-in-law to go into a pit, it was like a
19 staircase, and Hadisa Pezer arrived, she was a younger
20 woman and my husband probably did not know her, and as
21 she walked in, she said, "there is shooting everywhere,
22 do not go out. I am coming from down below, from the
23 Pezer's house. All our houses are on fire and all our
24 men have been killed".
25 Then she went down into this little basement with
1 us, and the shooting continued from everywhere. She sat
2 down by the door and Fariz said, "are they looking for
3 weapons?", and she said, "they are". He had a pistol,
4 he was a forester so he got it from his company. He
5 showed it to her and she said, "whether you had it or
6 not, they will shoot you".
7 At that point, somebody says, "who is at home?".
8 My husband came out and I followed him. There was a
9 dark young man in a camouflage uniform, no mask or
10 anything. He had a gun in his hand and my husband, who
11 was beside himself, said, "what is going on? What do
12 you think you are doing?". He said, "what about what
13 happened in Zenica?". He said, "I do not know, I am
14 just doing my job".
15 At that moment, I had a good view from my sister's
16 house, I could see a column of soldiers coming and they
17 were already approaching. This same soldier, I had a
18 good view, about 30 metres ahead of me, and as I was
19 standing next to my husband, he looked under and he
20 said, "madam, what is down there?"; I said, "garage".
21 "Can you unlock it for me?"; "I would have to go over
22 to my house because that is where the keys are"; "if you
23 do not mind, go over there". I went over there and
24 unlocked it while my husband was talking to this young
25 man, I do not know what he was talking about.
1 Q. Please try and speak a little bit more slowly, I know
2 you are nervous, but it is important the court hear your
3 story and hear it correctly. Try and speak as slowly as
4 you can. Thank you.
5 A. So I went and unlocked the garage, I came back over
6 there, in front of my son's house and my son had already
7 taken -- but as I was coming back from the garage,
8 I crossed over into my house and I saw my son as he was
9 taking the baby in the cradle to his wife and I stayed
10 in the house. I was thinking a little bit about maybe
11 they should have taken some clothes, I do not know what,
12 it was 10 or 15 minutes past and I heard my son Haris's
13 voice, "mum, mum, come out because they will kill you".
14 Then I came out and there were other people coming to my
15 yard.
16 I saw Mehmed and there were some others below the
17 garage who were arriving, so I saw some people in the
18 garage and I saw other people arriving, but I was the
19 last one to go into the garage and I barely had room to
20 fit in there. My husband stayed in front of the house,
21 in front of my son's house. He was still talking to
22 this young man. At that moment, as I was coming inside
23 the garage, I already saw that there were a lot of
24 soldiers in Islam's yard, and I saw them coming, even
25 more of them.
1 Islam's children were there, Islam was there, near
2 that pillar, and a soldier was walking around as if he
3 was guarding us a little bit, but he was also putting us
4 in this garage. As we all packed into this garage, this
5 one soldier yelled over to the other one, "lock it up
6 and if anybody comes out, shoot". So we stayed there
7 locked in the garage. I do not know how much it could
8 have been, one or five minutes, we heard bursts of
9 fire. After that, a dead silence fell for about ten
10 minutes, fifteen.
11 Then we heard a voice, and since I could not see,
12 we could not see from this garage, we could only see
13 straight out to the main road, Hrjnic, Meho Hrjnic was
14 coming and Ado Hrjnic and behind them was his wife and
15 his son Haris. We could see them as they were coming
16 because we had a clear view from the garage on to the
17 main road, and behind them, behind the four of them
18 there were two soldiers. As they came halfway towards
19 the house of my son, somebody must have said to Meho to
20 stay there and he did. There was a soldier next to
21 him.
22 The other soldier escorted Ado and Haris and
23 Samija. When they came, the door was unlocked and they
24 entered, Samija and Haris, and Ado stepped in -- Admir
25 was his name, Ado was his nickname. The soldier behind
1 him told him, "hey, you, come back too", and he did go
2 back to that road by the main road, because his father
3 was still standing there, not quite on the road, but a
4 step away from the road. It was just like a little --
5 there was like -- turned a little bit towards Fariz's
6 house. Ado also arrived there and stood next to his
7 father and the two soldiers who were there, they shot
8 him in, I do not know, the back or stomach, I do not
9 know, and they fell down. They tried to go forward and
10 then a minute later, their hair just sort of stood up.
11 There was then some panic, some silence, there
12 were about 30 of us in this garage, and this went on
13 until about 3.35 or 4.00. We did not have watches, it
14 was just women and children.
15 Then down the same road, there were three
16 neighbours of ours, I knew them well. One's name was
17 Srebrenica, I do not know his first name. The other one
18 was Draze, I know that one well, and Zoran maybe, a
19 blond one. Whether they had uniforms or not, I really
20 did not remember that, but they went -- were walking and
21 they looked out, Meho and Ado are lying, they came in
22 front of my house, where I lived, they drank some water,
23 they stood there, maybe they had a bottle of something,
24 I do not know, some kind of beverage, I do not know what
25 it was, and we yelled from the garage, Djula Dzidic she
1 knew them a bit better, she was also with us, and we
2 called them, called them, "Zoran, Zoran, open up" and
3 they came over and unlocked us.
4 We all came out into the yard and some people
5 drank some water. If they had anything in their bags,
6 they also had something to eat, and I quickly went to
7 the barn so that I could milk the cow because I had the
8 granddaughter, so I want wanted to bring her some milk.
9 We asked them, "where should we go, what should we
10 do?". One of them crossed the yard and went into my
11 other sister's house. He said, "you know, it is not
12 safe here". The first floor was on fire and it burnt
13 down, but the top floor remained intact and we were
14 going to go there and he said, "it is not safe there,
15 but Nesib Ahmic, he has a summer kitchen", so we moved
16 over there, we went up --
17 MS. PATERSON: Ms. Dedic, let me stop you at this point in
18 time. If it is all right with Mr. President, I would
19 like to go back and ask some questions at this point.
20 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps we could take a break now, everyone
21 could rest up, the interpreters, the witness, unless you
22 have a short question, otherwise we will have the recess
23 now.
24 MS. PATERSON: No, Mr. President, I think this is a perfect
25 time for a break.
1 JUDGE JORDA: Fine. We will resume then at 4.35.
2 (4.15 pm)
3 (A short break)
4 (4.35 pm)
5 JUDGE JORDA: The court is back in session. Bring in the
6 accused, please.
7 (Accused brought in)
8 JUDGE JORDA: Ms Paterson?
9 MS. PATERSON: Ms. Dedic, at this point in time I am just
10 going to ask you a few questions to clarify some parts
11 of the story you just told the judges. You said when
12 you came out of your house to go next door to your son
13 Fariz's house, you had a short conversation with Islam
14 Ahmic. Do you recall that?
15 A. He told me -- actually he and I were the only ones
16 facing each other, and he kept saying, "where is Mujo?"
17 -- "where is Mustafa?", I mean, and I said, "he got
18 into the house, Harisa's house", and he was on a terrace
19 and he said at that point, "Azra, get into the house
20 quickly, you too, I have already been hit". I saw him
21 from that terrace making this kind of sign (indicates)
22 and then he left.
23 Q. So did you actually see Islam Ahmic shot and killed?
24 A. No, I did not see when he was hit. He just managed to
25 tell me this when he was getting back into the house.
1 I was downstairs and he was on a terrace. I was already
2 in front of my son's house, and he asked me, "where is
3 Mujo?", and I said, "he got in here", and that is what
4 he managed to tell me. He said, "I have been hit too,
5 get into the house quickly", and he went into his house
6 and I never saw him again.
7 Q. Were you informed later that Islam Ahmic in fact had
8 been killed by that shot and died?
9 A. No, as we were getting out of the house again, when
10 I was coming back to the garage when my son called me,
11 when I was getting out of my house a minute or two
12 later, Islam Ahmic was standing on the ground. He,
13 Majda and both sons, Amil and Miza, they were standing
14 out there and next to them, I saw a soldier standing
15 next to them. I also went on to the garage and then his
16 sons and his wife also came into the garage with us, and
17 Islam remained standing there by that post. I saw him
18 standing on his own feet.
19 Q. Okay. You also said that at some point in time when you
20 had come out of your house, you saw a number of soldiers
21 in the field nearby. Do you recall how many soldiers
22 you saw in the field?
23 A. I do not know exactly. I was not counting them, but a
24 line of them were standing up there, they were walking
25 up to us and some of them had already reached Islam's
1 yard and they were doing something in the yard and one
2 of them was standing and talking to my husband, my
3 husband was still there and the man he was talking to
4 was still there. How many of them were there, I do not
5 know, but they were coming in and some of them had
6 already arrived. I do not know exactly how many of them
7 were there in the yard.
8 Q. When you saw the troops in the field, can you estimate?
9 Was it as few, for example, as five, or as many as 50,
10 or do you simply have no idea how many it was?
11 A. I do not know, most probably I saw some ten-odd people,
12 because that is how much I could see in front of me,
13 about ten or twenty, something like that. As many as
14 I could see.
15 Q. Okay, I would like to direct your attention back to the
16 enlarged aerial photo which is exhibit number 145. Do
17 you see a number of Xs on that photo above the large
18 circle? Do those Xs represent the place where you saw
19 these soldiers in the field?
20 A. I saw them roughly there, yes, as they were coming --
21 they were coming from that direction, yes, from up
22 there. By my sister's house, and behind Islam's garage
23 from that side. As they were approaching my house, at
24 that point in time I saw Sefik's house on fire -- Sefik
25 was Islam's brother -- so they were coming from that
1 side.
2 Q. Were you able to see whether or not these soldiers were
3 wearing uniforms and if so, could you describe the
4 uniforms?
5 A. Yes. They were wearing camouflage uniforms and black,
6 most of them were black, and the men who wore them had
7 stockings over their face and others did not have
8 anything on their faces, and others had a lot of paint
9 on their faces.
10 Q. Were the soldiers close enough to you that you could see
11 whether or not they had any patches or emblems on their
12 uniform?
13 A. Well no, perhaps I could see one or two HVO. They were
14 HVO. As I would see them before, some of our neighbours
15 wore them, so I could see some HVO patches. It seems to
16 me it was yellow all around.
17 Q. At this time, I would ask Mr. Dubuisson to show the
18 witness what is already in evidence, exhibit number
19 100/2. Could you just put it on the ELMO, please? Is
20 that the emblem that you saw those soldiers wearing and
21 if not, could you describe what is different about it?
22 A. I do not know what the difference is. I know the HVO
23 letters well and the chess board sign. How it was
24 turned, I do not know, I am not very familiar with that
25 and I never paid much attention to it, but at first
1 sight, this is what it looked like.
2 Q. Okay, thank you. Could I just have the aerial
3 photograph put back on the ELMO?
4 Ms. Dedic, you said that at some point in time
5 some soldiers came to the house where you were with your
6 husband and your sons and had a conversation with your
7 husband. Can you describe what that soldier was
8 wearing, the one that had the conversation with your
9 husband in front of your son's house?
10 A. I could not see what these soldiers were wearing. I was
11 not really there, there were a lot of boards out there,
12 a lot of wood, about ten cubic metres, so I could not
13 see my house, my son's house properly. I could only see
14 the road, but from the wood, I could not see my son's
15 house and I could not see what they were doing in front
16 of my son's house. I did not have a good view.
17 Q. Ms. Dedic, perhaps you misunderstood what point in time
18 I was talking about. You said at some point in time you
19 were in the house and soldiers came to the house and
20 called your husband outside. I believe you said you
21 followed him out and he had the conversation with the
22 soldier. Do you remember what uniform the soldier was
23 wearing at that point in time?
24 A. That is what you are referring to. I did not look very
25 carefully and I could not see it, because as I was told
1 to unlock the door, I had to go to my own house to get
2 the key and then go and unlock the door, so I did not
3 look very carefully. I just saw them in passing, but
4 I did not even look at those who were right in front of
5 the house.
6 Q. Okay. You said that your husband and your son did
7 possess some pistols and had the pistols in the house
8 that day, is that correct?
9 A. My husband had a pistol for 20 years. It was privately
10 owned and he had a licence, he bought it himself, and my
11 son was a forestry worker and he had a pistol issued to
12 him by the forest company he worked for. Also we had a
13 burglary some time in the autumn, so my husband's pistol
14 was stolen, but my son's pistol was still there. It was
15 taken away from us, you know, how should I call this,
16 this was the local community of the HVO, ours was taken
17 and Islam's was taken, and then they gave it back in a
18 day or two. I know these neighbours of ours who took it
19 away from us and then they gave these pistols back to us
20 in a day or two, but I cannot remember their names.
21 Also we had some kind of rifle, maybe you know
22 about this case, you know, people would bring parts of
23 rifles and then make rifles out of them. My younger son
24 was fond of shooting, for example, at weddings when
25 people were having a good time and the younger boy said,
1 "daddy, could I do a bit of shooting?", so he was
2 shooting between the two houses and he hit a telephone
3 wire. A man came from the road and he asked my husband,
4 "who was shooting just now?" , and he said, "Haris".
5 That rifle remained in our house that night and then
6 these neighbours, these Croat neighbours of ours took it
7 away from us afterwards, but now five years later,
8 I cannot remember their names. I knew their names then,
9 though, they were the sons of a man who lived pretty far
10 away from us, about half a kilometre away from us and
11 they never gave it back to us. It was a very plain
12 rifle, we had assembled it ourselves. I do not know
13 whether you know about the case of the military
14 barracks, when it exploded.
15 Q. Ms. Dedic, you do not need to go into all the detail of
16 the history of the rifle. I just need to establish, on
17 that morning, 16th April, did your husband or son still
18 have that rifle in the house? Yes or no, did they have
19 that rifle in the house that morning?
20 A. No, I can corroborate that, no. These neighbours took
21 it away from us. I do not know their names now, I knew
22 them before, these two brothers, they were going from
23 one house to another and taking things.
24 Q. That is fine. You said however that your son Haris did
25 have a pistol. Did he give that pistol to the soldiers
1 when they came to the house?
2 A. Yes. As Hadisa came to our door, at that very moment he
3 had the pistol in his hands, Hadisa Pezer, he said, "are
4 they looking for arms?", and she said, "regardless of
5 whether you give them the gun or not, regardless of
6 whether you want it over to them or not, they are going
7 to kill you, that is what my Fadil did too". I do not
8 know what kind of gun Fadil had. It was some kind of a
9 hobby, you know. A lot of people had pistols there. As
10 far as I know, quite a few neighbours had pistols, but
11 they had licences too, you can check on that.
12 Q. Okay. At any point in time on that day, 16th April, did
13 you see your son or husband fire that pistol at any of
14 the soldiers or men coming toward your house?
15 A. No, they did not even try. That is where we lived and
16 it is in the middle of a field, you cannot really
17 shoot. How can a father and a son start shooting these
18 masses of people? They handed over the gun immediately
19 to the first man who walked in and what they did with
20 the pistol later I do not know, but they gave it to the
21 first man who walked in.
22 Q. Okay. Then you said, I believe you said you had gone
23 and unlocked the garage and going into the garage, you
24 saw the soldiers leading your son Fariz away, is that
25 correct?
1 A. Yes, Fariz, the older one is Fariz and the younger one
2 is Haris. So the older one was married for a year and
3 a half and he had a six month old baby. This soldier
4 took him behind the garage, and he held a gun to his
5 back and he took him to the house of Munib Ribo, my
6 sister's house, and Munib had just arrived and his wife
7 too and then I arrived to my son's house and my husband
8 was there and the wife and the three little girls walked
9 in to the garage. How much time did it take, 20 or 30
10 minutes for all of us to be assembled there, all of us
11 from these houses, but it was pretty fast.
12 When Munib arrived, then the same soldier went to
13 Siljak Adem, this was my brother and he called him and
14 said, "uncle, get out, these soldiers are looking for
15 you and they are not going to do you any harm. You and
16 Hatka and the children should come over to our garage.
17 Father and Munib are already there in front of the
18 garage, so come on", and he went on, he went to the
19 house of Nesib Ahmic, this same soldier, so they went up
20 there and they brought Nesib's wife to the garage and
21 his daughter and his son Elvedin and Elvedin's wife,
22 whereas Nesib was somewhere at work and the other son
23 Dzevad.
24 Q. Let me interrupt you just a moment. Would it be correct
25 to say that you learned that your son Fariz, after he
1 went around the garage, that he went basically from
2 house to house of your neighbours and family and called
3 the men out of those houses, is that essentially what
4 happened?
5 A. Yes, yes. When we started talking in the garage, Hatka,
6 my daughter-in-law, she came into the garage wounded.
7 Fariz brought her there, but Hatka, as she was getting
8 into my garage, she was wounded, and Adem Siljak, my
9 brother, and my son were not allowed to go in front of
10 Fariz's house, we did not see them after that, so they
11 crossed this field and they went towards Islam's yard.
12 These other soldiers from there were saying, "come here,
13 the two of you", so they went there and we did not see
14 them in front of my house any more, or in front of my
15 son's house.
16 Q. Ms. Dedic, did you learn that your son Fariz was killed
17 that day?
18 A. When we were locked up, we realised that they had been
19 killed. We heard bursts of strong gunfire and then it
20 became very silent. I always talk very fast. When the
21 Hrjnics were getting into the garage and Haris, they
22 kept saying, "all your houses are on fire and all your
23 men are killed in front of Fariz's house". They saw it
24 as they were coming in. They came into the garage
25 perhaps ten minutes after us or five minutes after us.
1 They were brought into my yard later and that is when
2 they told us, Samija and Haris Hrjnic, they said, "Munib
3 is lying dead by the wood and your Mujo is lying beneath
4 the walnut tree, lying on his back".
5 At 4.00, when we got out of the garage, these
6 other women were turning around, but I did not turn
7 around at that point in time, but I saw then immediately
8 my husband's foot, he had slippers on his feet while he
9 was in the house and I turned my head, I could not look,
10 and at that point in time, around 4.00, as we were
11 getting out of the house, I saw his foot, the foot of my
12 dead husband, and I recognised the slippers because
13 I know that when he walked into the house, he wore those
14 slippers and he enjoyed wearing slippers when he was at
15 home.
16 Q. Okay, so would it be correct to say that both your son
17 Fariz and your husband Mustafa were killed on 16th April
18 1993, would that be correct?
19 A. They were killed, exactly. I saw my husband's foot,
20 I saw him dead that day, not after that. When these
21 corpses were collected all over Ahmici, I do not know
22 who was doing it, UNPROFOR, I am not too sure, my
23 brother is Adem Siljak, his name was out there at the
24 board, and my son Ahmic Amir -- I mean Islam's son, and
25 since Islam's son survived, he was about 18 at that
1 time, then on that board, which was put up on the --
2 this list which was put up on the board down there, they
3 thought that it was my son Fariz actually. I cannot
4 remember all of this now, I know it was about 30
5 people.
6 This man who was recognising people in old Vitez,
7 Islam was his boss at Impregnancia and he enjoyed
8 wearing some yellow shoes and also a special jacket. He
9 recognised Islam's jacket and shoes and then he said
10 that that was Islam Ahmic, he put him on the list, he
11 identified him as such, so he was found in Islam's yard,
12 and everybody thought it was Amir Ahmic in the yard, but
13 because he survived, he got out alive together with us,
14 his mother, when she went to Stari Vitez after about a
15 year, she took him away from this list of the deceased
16 and he was also supposed to do his military service.
17 Q. So just to be sure that the court understands, is it
18 your understanding that your son Fariz and that your
19 husband are both buried in the Muslim cemetery in
20 Stari Vitez?
21 JUDGE JORDA: I think the judges have understood that point,
22 Ms. Paterson.
23 A. Yes, and the man who told us about it, to be very
24 accurate, the man who was collecting the dead bodies, we
25 asked, "what did Amir Ahmic wear at that time? What
1 kind of clothes?". He had a leather jacket and leather
2 boots and we asked about his sweater. He said, "do not
3 ask me about his sweater or about his head, but he had a
4 denim jacket and leather boots", that is exactly what my
5 son wore that morning.
6 MS. PATERSON: Thank you. You said you yourself saw Ado and
7 Meho Hrjnic killed while you were in the garage. In
8 addition to Ado and Meho, and your husband and son, how
9 many other men were killed that morning in the area
10 around your house and garage. You do not have to go
11 into details about it, just how many men were killed and
12 their names, if you can tell us.
13 A. I can, yes. Ado and Meho on the one side and my husband
14 and Munib on the other side, they were about 20 metres
15 away. Ado and Meho were killed a bit further up, right
16 in front of the house, and Mujo, my Mustafa, and Munib
17 Ribo, my brother-in-law, they were killed a bit lower,
18 below the house, but to the other side of the wood, I do
19 not know how to explain this to you, not right in front
20 of the house, not right in the centre of the yard,
21 because this wood was collected there.
22 Q. So do you know what total number of men were killed that
23 morning? Was it nine men that were killed there in that
24 area?
25 A. Let me count. Ahmic Ado and Meho two, Munib and Mustafa
1 four, Islam Ahmic and Elvedin Ahmic, and my son Fariz
2 Dedic and Siljak Adem my brother. You do the counting.
3 Two, four, six, eight. And the ninth was Sefik Ahmic,
4 because he was killed down there about 100 or 200 metres
5 away from them, in another part of the field.
6 Q. Okay, thank you. On 16th April, this same day, what
7 happened to your house? Was your house damaged in any
8 way and did you see it being damaged?
9 A. When we were locked up in the garage, all these people
10 were killed, all the houses were on fire, but this house
11 of mine, we call it the new house and the old house,
12 I do not know how you are going to take this, my son's
13 house was the new house and the old house was the one
14 where I lived. I saw two soldiers coming up, they wore
15 helmets and they had a litre or two in plastic jerry
16 cans and they walked into my house. My house was not on
17 fire yet. All the other houses were already burning, so
18 they were there a minute or two or ten minutes and then
19 they went back and the house started burning and they
20 went to the main road, which was nearby, they went to
21 the main road, Zenica/Vitez, the Zenica/Vitez main road.
22 Q. Okay, thank you. Now could you continue your story and
23 tell the judges what happened after you said you left
24 the garage and were taken to another house nearby.
25 Continue with your story, please.
1 A. Well, yes, I can. We were in my garage until 4.00 and
2 then this group moved to Nesib's weekend house, it was
3 not a real house, the first floor was on fire and the
4 top floor was not. Draze and Zoran Vrebac were there
5 and that is where they stayed and that is where we spent
6 the night, this group of us, all the way until the
7 morning.
8 In the morning, since Andjelko, Ivan's son, was
9 around there, and Mirko's son, I forget his name, we saw
10 their wives going from house to house, they were
11 parallel house, 10 to 20 metres apart, and Seka,
12 Nevenka, I forget the others, women's names, "come over
13 here", we yelled, and they came to this garage and when
14 we saw who was there and what was going on, she said,
15 "what shall we do, shall we go?". Those three men had
16 told us not to budge from there, but they came over
17 round the fence and they came over. Then Jozo arrived
18 and Ivan and Andjelko, I think that is what his name
19 was. They helped us cross the road, they were sort of
20 protection of some kind.
21 JUDGE JORDA: Ms. Dedic, look towards the judges, please.
22 It is the judges who are going to be dealing with this
23 case. There is no harm in you not being aware of that,
24 these are events that did mark you, so we can understand
25 that you can get caught up, but do continue and then
1 there will be just a few questions for you.
2 A. Very well, thank you. Then we went over there to this
3 Crisis Staff there and we stayed there the second night,
4 because it was already dark by then and other groups
5 were arriving, from Zume and up the main road. So it
6 was like a collection centre, it was not just us from
7 our neighbourhood, there were even women from the
8 neighbourhood where the cemetery was. There were
9 weekend houses there and so there were a lot of refugees
10 there, so their woman folk arrived, so from Krcevine and
11 we all came to this crisis centre, I think we were about
12 190 or something, and that is where we spent the second
13 night.
14 MS. PATERSON: Ms. Dedic, let me just ask you a couple of
15 brief questions to clarify this part of your story.
16 After you were in the garage, you were taken to the
17 house of Nesib Ahmic, is that correct?
18 A. Yes, from my garage to Nesib's garage, and then to the
19 Crisis Staff in Zume.
20 Q. Okay. If I can direct your attention to the aerial
21 photograph in front of you, can you just tell the judges
22 which letter represents Nesib Ahmic's house? Would that
23 be letter F?
24 A. I am going to turn a little bit so that I can follow the
25 main road, it helps me. The garage is E and Nesib is
1 letter F.
2 Q. You also said that you were taken to the HVO Crisis
3 Staff headquarters. What number is that on the
4 diagram? Is that number 3?
5 A. Across the street and up, up, yes. Up around here
6 (indicates) there is the house of Pican's and then
7 another one and then Danica's and then under number 3,
8 yes.
9 Q. How long did you stay at the Crisis Staff headquarters?
10 How many days were you there?
11 A. We spent -- that be one whole day and night in this
12 Crisis Staff headquarters, until about 8.00 or 9.00 in
13 the morning, I do not know exactly what time.
14 Q. Where did you go when you left the Crisis Staff
15 headquarters? Where were you taken after that?
16 A. We were taken in the direction to Dubravica, to the
17 school building. It was an elementary school there and
18 there we stayed 15 or 17 days. Over 15.
19 Q. Just before we go on to the Dubravica school, while you
20 were still at the HVO headquarters, was there an
21 incident when some soldiers came and tried to take away
22 your younger son, Haris?
23 A. This was at the Crisis Staff headquarters in Zume on the
24 second day. A soldier arrived, quite tall and dark, and
25 he was saying, "the men who were collecting bodies
1 should come out". We did not know who was going -- then
2 Zenur came out, Amir his brother and a man named Munib,
3 I do not know his name. Then when they were going out,
4 he pointed to my son, to another man and to somebody
5 from Loncari, then he also pointed at Hasim and his wife
6 objected to that and he told her to shut up. She
7 stepped forward towards him and I said, "please do not,
8 you killed my brother, son, neighbours everybody, spare
9 him please". This soldier said, "you be silent and if
10 you are not silent I will kill both you and him".
11 Then my son was silent there and he sat down.
12 Then he again pointed at Hasim and took him away and
13 those four men were never seen from that morning on.
14 Q. Can you just briefly describe to the court what this man
15 looked like, what he was wearing, the man who took these
16 four men away that day?
17 A. He had black clothes, outfit, it was -- I think they
18 called them Jokers. He had a hat turned backwards and
19 he also carried a weapon that was rare. I do not know
20 about this Jokers, there was like -- he had like a stick
21 and held it over our heads. We were at least 100 there
22 in that room, because 30 came just from my garage, and
23 then as the others joined the group, they were coming
24 from Prijedor, there were even neighbours, there were
25 some refugees, some women from those houses that were
1 over on the cemetery side and Krcevine.
2 Q. Okay, and you said that you spent 15 days at the
3 Dubravica school. After that, were you eventually
4 released from the school and left the area of Santici?
5 A. After 15 days, we went and we were then taking care of
6 ourselves. My daughter-in-law, my grandchild, my
7 younger son and I took a bus and then went out and for a
8 while we were in Norway, in a camp, and then spent
9 another three months with a friend and now we have our
10 own place.
11 MS. PATERSON: Thank you, Ms. Dedic. I have no further
12 questions, I would just like to introduce some
13 photographs. Ms. Dedic, we discussed this, as you will
14 recall, before and I said I would leave it up to you.
15 Would you like me to show you these photographs or would
16 you just like me to introduce them directly to the
17 court. These are photographs of your husband, your son
18 and some other friends and relatives.
19 A. I could take a look at it. That is the reason why
20 I brought them, so that I would have it too. These were
21 the pictures from my son's wedding and I wanted to have
22 these pictures.
23 Q. Ms. Dedic, I know your inclination is to look at these
24 and talk about your family members, but if you would
25 please look at the photographs and just identify who the
1 people are in the photographs. If the court wants to
2 ask you additional questions, they will do so.
3 A. Yes, I can. I would gladly do it.
4 JUDGE JORDA: Ms. Dedic, it is for you to decide whether you
5 want to identify these pictures or not. If you care to,
6 do go right ahead.
7 A. Very well, I will look at them.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Then just very briefly, if you could tell us
9 who the family members on these pictures are. I think
10 we all have the same document.
11 A. This is my husband, Mustafa, and this is my son Haris
12 and this is my younger brother. That is it, it is
13 over.
14 MS. PATERSON: Just for the record, this is Exhibit 146/1.
15 The man on the right is your husband Mustafa and the man
16 in the middle is your son Fariz, is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. The next photograph, 146/2, could you just identify the
19 men in that photograph?
20 A. This is Mujo Ahmic, the godfather of my daughter-in-law,
21 and he was also killed and the man with the moustache,
22 this is Adem Siljak, my brother.
23 Q. Just so the record is clear, the man in the photograph
24 in the white jacket?
25 A. Mujo Ahmic.
1 Q. The man with the moustache is your brother, is that
2 correct?
3 A. Yes, my brother Adem Siljak.
4 Q. Okay. Next photograph, 146/3, the man in the moustache,
5 is that your brother again?
6 A. Yes, they were killed -- yes, this is again Mujo Ahmic,
7 this is also from the wedding.
8 Q. And the man in that photograph who has his arm around
9 your brother, that is your son Fariz, is that correct?
10 A. Yes, Fariz.
11 Q. Finally the last photograph, 146/4, the man in the
12 centre of the photograph with the red collar, that is
13 your son Fariz, is that correct?
14 A. And the one who is holding the two fingers, and you can
15 see him up in the corner, that is Elvedin Ahmic and his
16 name is also in Stari Vitez. He is Nesib Ahmic's son.
17 Q. So the man in the far right of the photograph, you can
18 only see half his face, he is holding up his hand, he
19 was also killed, is that correct?
20 A. Yes, he was killed.
21 MS. PATERSON: Thank you, Ms. Dedic.
22 Mr. President, I have no further questions at this
23 time.
24 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Mr. Nobilo?
25 Cross-examined by MR. NOBILO
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. President. I will attempt to be quite
2 short. Good evening, madam Dedic. You see we already
3 have the evening upon us and I am the Defence counsel
4 for General Blaskic, together with my colleague
5 Mr. Russell Hayman. I only have a couple of questions
6 for you. When Islam Ahmic your neighbour told you he
7 was hit, were there any HVO soldiers around?
8 A. They were approaching like this (indicates). As I said
9 before, I do not know the distance, 20 or 30 metres from
10 the corner of his house and I do not know how else to --
11 Q. So at what distance were they?
12 A. 20, 30 metres, I really could not tell you, but they
13 were spread out like this (indicates), so they were
14 coming this way.
15 Q. Islam Ahmic, was he a member of the TO or the army?
16 A. I do not believe he was. He travelled with my husband,
17 he worked in Impregnancia and he also was on work duty,
18 he was a foreman.
19 Q. Did he have any weapons?
20 A. He had a pistol, private, just like my husband. Where
21 he kept it that morning, I do not know, we never talked
22 about it, but I know I can say this, that when my
23 husband's pistol was taken away, his was taken away too
24 and then was returned to him.
25 Q. Did he have a rifle?
1 A. I do not think so. He was laughing at our neighbours
2 and our children. He was joking about this rifle that
3 we had.
4 Q. Tell me, is it true that Nenad Santic guaranteed the
5 safety to your husband and your family?
6 A. Yes, that is correct. Nenad Santic has a brother who
7 was a great friend with my husband. He was a merchant
8 in Vitez. They would meet often and they were friends,
9 this brother of his, but I knew Nenad very little, I do
10 not know him at all, but I know the brother quite well.
11 Q. If we can slow down a little bit for interpreters.
12 A. Very well, I just naturally speak very fast.
13 Q. What did you hear about Nenad Santic? Was he an
14 important person in the village?
15 A. Yes, he was. He was often talked about. I heard
16 stories from my neighbours, he was some kind of a
17 commander and I would see him often as a neighbour. He
18 lived down from us. We did not exchange visits but we
19 were not hating each other either. But I knew his
20 brother well. Him I knew much less.
21 Q. Very well. When the soldier arrived and talked to your
22 husband and son and asked them, "did you watch
23 television last night, that people were killed in Zenica
24 and that is why the Muslims are being killed", do you
25 remember that conversation?
1 A. No, I do not, because I did not have enough time. He
2 stayed there, I only heard these words at the moment
3 when I was passing my husband. I heard him say, when my
4 husband said, "by God, people, what is this", this is
5 what I heard of this dark young man, "well, this is for
6 what had happened in Zenica", and what happened in
7 Zenica; believe it or not, I was not following
8 television programmes that much.
9 Q. Madam Dedic, I will read you a fragment of what you said
10 in your statement. I will read it in English and you
11 will get it in interpretation. This is on page 2 of the
12 witness statement:
13 "My son was close there too. The soldiers said
14 this is for what you saw on TV last night. Because you
15 killed our people at the Zenica blockade, now we are
16 killing your people."
17 Is that what you stated to the investigators when
18 you spoke to them?
19 A. I do not know, this was five years ago and I gave a
20 statement even in the court in Zenica, and if there are
21 discrepancies, I do not know how we can correct that.
22 Q. You have a better memory now than five years ago?
23 A. I do not know what you are referring to.
24 Q. To this.
25 A. Oh, that. I do not know, I am not sure myself. It was
1 five years. I cannot recall every detail and every
2 word.
3 Q. Very well, thank you. When you came to the garage, what
4 time was it?
5 A. I could not tell you that, because when the shooting
6 started, it was 5.15, 5.30, I was not looking at the
7 watch. I do not know how much it took me to wake up my
8 husband, maybe a minute or two, and then when I went to
9 my son's house, I do not know, five or ten minutes,
10 I cannot tell you.
11 Q. I am interested in something else now. You said that
12 there was something in Slimane and then they got the
13 rifles.
14 A. I can tell you this. It was a warehouse of the JNA.
15 I was told that this existed there before and the word
16 got around the village that this depot blew up or
17 something and maybe two days later, people went over
18 there in cars, we had vehicles there, let us go and see
19 what is up there. They collected some barrels and then
20 they were making, putting them together, makeshift
21 rifles, I do not know. But I know that they were doing
22 this in my back yard, specially my young son.
23 Q. Was that only your son or were there other people doing
24 this?
25 A. I do not know, I know about my son. They got these
1 barrels, I do not know who he got it from. I do not
2 know if it was somebody who went there in their car.
3 I was not paying that much attention, but they were
4 working on them.
5 Q. Did many people go in their cars to Slimane?
6 A. I do not know, I did not like to leave my house, my
7 house is at the end of the commune and we are closer to
8 Santici than to Ahmici, so I did not go much to upper
9 Ahmici to people who lived around the mosque. I would
10 only go there if there were something, some funeral or
11 something.
12 Q. When your father shot at the telegraph pole, was there
13 any damage?
14 A. No, it was telephone lines, a temporary makeshift
15 line to my son's new house.
16 Q. Who took the pistol?
17 A. I really do not know who these people from the local
18 commune in Santici were. I know them, I know their
19 faces but not their names.
20 Q. Islam's son who was misidentified as your son who was
21 killed, how was he rescued?
22 A. I do not know, but that morning he was standing next to
23 his father, Islam was there, Mijda and Amir, Mirza, I do
24 not know. Every woman in Ahmici has her own story and
25 I know that they will all come and tell it.
1 Q. When you were leaving the garage, you said it was around
2 4.00 in the afternoon. Can you tell me, was there any
3 shooting going on around?
4 A. When we were in the garage, and indeed the whole time
5 the next day, when we were being taken in the direction
6 to this one location, the shooting was going on towards
7 Sljivcica, Ahmici and as we were passing we were talking
8 to each other, we were saying "they are shooting", and
9 that was over up above.
10 Q. So there was shooting going on both when you were in the
11 garage and when you left it?
12 A. While we were in the garage we could hear again coming
13 from the upper ground, something like shells.
14 Q. When you came to the Crisis Staff headquarters, what you
15 said to the Prosecutor was that other women arrived.
16 What did you mean?
17 A. There were Muslim women, but there was also a neighbour
18 called Ljube, Karlovca, I think. She came in, she asked
19 if we needed anything. Gavrinica also arrived. I guess
20 her husband's name was Gavro. Some other women also
21 arrived and I really did not take anything from them,
22 because I had a six month old and I had to take care of
23 her.
24 Q. These were Croat women?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Was there any shooting going on around the Crisis Staff
2 headquarters?
3 A. It was silent, it was already dark. I cannot tell you
4 whether there was any shooting or not, but believe it or
5 not, in this plight that I was in, I was not paying much
6 attention to anything except for this small baby of six
7 months.
8 MR. NOBILO: Very well, thank you very much madam.
9 Mr. President, I have completed.
10 JUDGE JORDA: Ms. Paterson?
11 MS. PATERSON: Yes, Mr. President, I have no further
12 questions, I would just like to take this opportunity to
13 move into evidence Exhibits 145 and 146, 145 being the
14 photo enlargement and the accompanying legend and 146
15 being the four photographs of Ms. Dedic's family
16 members.
17 JUDGE JORDA: Fine, thank you. I have consulted my fellow
18 judges, we deem to have heard sufficient information.
19 Madam, we hope that your life is going to be happy in
20 the future. Would you care to add something, madam?
21 A. I just wish to apologise to you, because I was under
22 this face protection so I did not think that I had to
23 pay that much attention to you, I did not have to look
24 at you carefully, but I did not mean any offence. My
25 only wish is -- that is what I wish to say, but I am a
1 fast speaker naturally and I was afraid I would be
2 speaking too fast, but may I just say that I hope that
3 the evil that happened in Ahmici will never happen again
4 anywhere in the world and my only hope is that nobody
5 experiences it any more.
6 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you very much. I think we all hope the
7 same thing. Please do not move for the time being. The
8 court is adjourned and will resume its proceedings
9 tomorrow at 10.00.
10 (5.30 pm)
11 (Hearing adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)
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