1 Monday, 19th January 1998
2 (2.15 pm)
3 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Registrar,
4 have the accused brought in, please.
5 (Accused brought in)
6 JUDGE JORDA: We will now resume the
7 hearing. First I would like to ask whether the
8 interpreters are ready. Yes. I would like to wish
9 everybody a happy new year, all people who are working
10 with us in this trial.
11 First of all, does everybody hear? Does the
12 Prosecutor hear, the Defence hear? Does the accused
13 hear? General Blaskic, do you hear me?
14 MR. BLASKIC: Good morning, your Honour, I can
15 hear you very well.
16 JUDGE JORDA: We can then start again.
17 Let me first turn to the Prosecutor and ask
18 him, what is on this week's programme? I understood
19 there were a lot of witnesses. Perhaps the order which
20 we made about the testimony of witnesses, we can hope
21 that this will speed things up a bit. Mr. Prosecutor,
22 the floor is yours.
23 MR. HARMON: Good afternoon, Mr. President and
24 your Honours. Happy new year to you as well and to
1 Mr. President, we have a number of witnesses
2 this week, as you can see we have, and we will proceed
3 with them in as quick an order as we can. The first
4 witness I will be calling this afternoon, Mr. President,
5 is Munib Kajmovic. I can start with identifying those
6 parts of the indictment about which Mr. Kajmovic's
7 testimony is relevant. First, Mr. President, his
8 testimony is relevant to paragraph 5.2 of the general
9 allegations section of the indictment.
10 JUDGE JORDA: 5.2.
11 MR. HARMON: And is relevant to count 1,
12 persecution, crimes against humanity, dealing with the
13 forcible transfer of civilians, paragraphs 6.6, 6.7 and
14 paragraph 7. To summarise Mr. Kajmovic's testimony,
15 Mr. Kajmovic is from Central Bosnia, he was born in the
16 Travnik Municipality and he lived in Vitez from 1976
17 until 1994, the last eleven months of which he was in
18 Stari Vitez, involved in the siege of Stari Vitez as a
20 From 1976 until April 1993, he was a history
21 teacher at the Vitez High School. While he was a
22 resident of Vitez, he was active in civil and political
23 affairs, including being the President of the SDA, the
24 Bosnian Muslim political party in Vitez. In 1994,
25 following the end of the siege of Stari Vitez,
1 Mr. Kajmovic enrolled for graduate studies at the
2 University of Sarajevo, School of Politics, where as
3 part of his studies for a Master's degree he prepared a
4 Master's thesis entitled "Political and Demographic
5 Changes in the Vitez Municipality between 1992 and
6 1995". His thesis will be presented this June in front
7 of the Faculty of the University of Sarajevo and we
8 will offer him as an expert in the area of demographic
9 changes in the Vitez Municipality during the time-frame
10 which I have just identified.
11 His testimony will be limited to testifying
12 about the results of his research into the demographic
13 changes in the Vitez Municipality as a result of the
14 war. He will describe the manner and methods he used
15 in preparing his report and he will present evidence of
16 his findings and conclusions in respect of the
17 demographic changes of ethnic population movement in
18 the Vitez Municipality between 1991 and 1995 and the
19 causes for those changes.
20 So that, Mr. President, is a summary of what
21 he will testify about before this Trial Chamber today.
22 JUDGE JORDA: Speaking about an expert, and
23 with the concerns we have in trying to make sure
24 everything is done as quickly as possible, whether
25 there is a cross-examination in any case, did this
1 expert submit a report which would allow everybody to
2 see it and to be sure that only the most important
3 questions are asked?
4 MR. HARMON: No, Mr. President, we did not
5 submit a report to the Defence. As part of the court's
6 order, a copy of which I have, the Prosecutor was not
7 required -- the parties are not required to submit
8 expert reports. That was part of the decision of this
9 chamber, and I can refer the Trial Chamber to that part
10 of the decision if the court so please.
11 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Under those
12 conditions, we have heard your answer, you can have the
13 witness, Mr. Kajmovic, brought in. I believe that is
14 the name.
15 (Witness entered court)
16 JUDGE JORDA: Do you hear me, Mr. Kajmovic?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 JUDGE JORDA: Please turn to me, direct your
19 answers to me, please. Tell us your name, surname and
20 first name. Please look at the President when you are
21 answering. That is right, because I am the one
22 speaking to you. Tell me your name and first name.
23 THE WITNESS: My name is Munib Kajmovic.
24 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. While remaining
25 standing you are going to read the declaration which
1 the usher is going to give to you.
2 MR. MUNIB KAJMOVIC (sworn)
3 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. You may be seated,
4 Mr. Kajmovic. You were called by the Prosecutor as part
5 of the trial of the accused who is here, General
6 Blaskic. The Prosecutor has summarised what you are
7 going to tell us and after a few initial questions you
8 will speak freely and then answer any questions which
9 the Prosecutor will ask you.
10 Mr. Prosecutor, I give you the floor, if you
11 wish to begin now.
12 Examined by MR. HARMON
13 Q. Thank you. Good afternoon, Mr. Kajmovic.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. I am going to ask you some preliminary
16 questions and then we will turn directly to the heart
17 of your testimony. Mr. Kajmovic, are you 51 years old?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Are you a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina and a
20 Muslim by faith?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were you born in the Travnik Municipality in
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You could perhaps move a little closer, it
1 might make it a little easier for you to testify. That
2 is fine.
3 Mr. Kajmovic, did you earn a Bachelor of Arts
4 degree in history from the University of Sarajevo in
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thereafter, did you become a teacher of
8 history at the Vitez High School from 1976 until April
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. While you were living in the Vitez
12 Municipality, were you active in the civil and
13 political affairs of that community, including being
14 the President of the Muslim political party, the SDA?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you remain in Vitez Municipality until
17 1994, that is after the end of the siege of
18 Stari Vitez?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now let me turn your attention to the area
21 that I have asked you to come here to testify about,
22 and that is a study that you undertook regarding
23 demographics. First of all, Mr. Kajmovic, can you tell
24 the judges about when you enrolled at the University of
25 Sarajevo, the degree that you are pursuing, the topic
1 of your Master's thesis in general terms, please.
2 A. Yes. From earlier on, I had a wish to pursue
3 scholarship on a more serious level, but that was not
4 possible at that time. After the armed conflict
5 between the HVO and the BiH army, I decided to enrol
6 into the graduate studies at the University of Sarajevo
7 School of Political Science. This was in late 1994,
8 and after about a year and a half, after I passed the
9 exams required by the curriculum, by the programme of
10 the graduate studies, I applied to the Lectures Council
11 at the school to approve my thesis, whose topic was
12 "The Demographic Changes in the Municipality of Vitez
13 between 1992 and 1995".
14 The faculty considered my application and
15 they approved it eventually. I was assigned a
16 professor who was going to be the mentor, who was going
17 to follow the project and who was going to -- with whom
18 I was going to consult. The faculty decided that this
19 person should be the doctor Mirko Pejanovic, who is the
20 professor in the -- Mr. Pejanovic was also a member of
21 the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina at one point.
22 After this topic was approved, I started my work on
23 this project, and I am almost at the end of it.
24 I should, this next June, I am supposed to defend this
25 paper at the School of Political Science. The topic is
1 also of certain interest to the Tribunal, as
2 I understand, and since I have given a statement
3 regarding the events in Vitez, and so it happened that
4 these -- there has been a confluence of interests here,
5 and I can speak to certain results that I have reached
6 researching this topic as regards the Municipality of
7 Vitez. I do not know whether I should move on and
8 start to elaborate on the topic.
9 Q. Let me just ask you, you mentioned Dr. Mirko
10 Pejanovic. He is a Serb, is he not? A Bosnian Serb?
11 A. Yes, he is an ethnic Serb.
12 Q. Before getting into your actual research, can
13 you tell the court a little bit about the Vitez
14 municipality itself, its size, its dimensions, certain
15 characteristics about it?
16 A. Yes, the Vitez Municipality is one of the
17 smaller municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Its
18 square area is 159 square kilometres, and it has 28,000
19 inhabitants. The municipality is populated in its
20 northern part. Ethnically the population was mixed,
21 approximately 45 per cent of the population were
22 Bosnian Croats, about 41 per cent Bosniaks, about
23 5 per cent Bosnian Serbs. 4 point something per cent
24 were Yugoslavs and the rest were others. Until --
25 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, before we get into your actual
1 data, could you inform the court how you went about
2 collecting the data for your thesis?
3 A. Yes. When working on this thesis, of course
4 I had to use certain sources, and since this is the
5 issue of demographic changes that we are dealing with
6 here, as a basis I used the census of 1991; that was
7 the starting point. After that, I used sources that
8 were institutions of legal powers of Bosnia-Herzegovina
9 in the territory of the Vitez Municipality; I used data
10 of the Territorial Defence headquarters, and then there
11 was an internal census that was taken at the end of
12 1995 in the territory of the municipality that was
13 under the control of the BiH army.
14 I also used data of the service of the local
15 commune of Vitez, that was the Bosniak part. Then
16 I used Red Cross Vitez data. I also used the data of
17 the Merhamet Society, except for those data I also
18 relied heavily on my own research in the field. Given
19 that the Vitez Municipality is fairly small in size,
20 that the area of the territory of the municipality is
21 relatively small and that I knew quite a few people
22 very well, I was able to do some personal research and
23 I got some relevant data on that basis. So from that
24 point of view, I had no problem in getting to the
25 sources and to provide an objective picture of the
2 What I had problems with was the part of the
3 territory that was under the control of the HVO,
4 because the relations there are still such that there
5 is absolutely no possibility -- there is not even a
6 possibility of free movement, let alone getting hold of
7 certain data, so there I had to apply different
8 methods. There I had to start with a data basis which
9 was based on the census that was done in 1991, and then
10 I did some indirect research in the field. I did that
11 in several local communes, that is those administrative
12 units. There were five or six such administrative
13 territorial units where I indirectly gathered data.
14 The way I gathered this data was basically this.
15 In these local communes, Bosnian Croats had
16 not moved, so the data from 1991 was unchanged. So
17 from those territories, the Bosnians had moved, and
18 other ethnic groups, and I -- so I gathered this data
19 in such a way that I used the 1991 data, that is the
20 average members per household was 3.70 persons. Then
21 I applied this number to other data that I received
22 from the field: that is, Bosniaks would visit these
23 local communes, they would go to their cemeteries, and
24 they gathered data how many Bosniak houses were burnt
25 down or destroyed; in other words that were
2 I already had the data on a number of such
3 households, so I used that data that they gave me on
4 the functional households and whether they are
6 Then on the basis of this information,
7 I multiplied the number of these households by 3.7, and
8 I got the data on the number of the Bosnian Croats who
9 were resident there, so these data are not absolutely
10 accurate, but everything points to maybe 5 to 6 points
11 of error margin at the most. So this is how I arrived
12 at the structure, the numbers of the Bosnian Croats in
13 the Vitez Municipality.
14 When I gathered all the relevant data,
15 I could then proceed to analyse and to precisely
16 determine what the demographic structure was in 1991,
17 and what the situation was in 1995. My position is
18 that the information is fairly accurate, especially
19 when it regards the demographic changes in the area of
20 the municipality which is under the control of the
21 BiH army; that is the changes that reflect the changes
22 among the Bosniaks. I also feel that the data
23 regarding the Bosnian Croats are reliable, but still
24 I have certain reservations there, because there could
25 be an error margin of 5 to 6 points there.
1 So basically, this is the technology and the
2 method of work which I applied to this particular
4 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, in the course of collecting your
5 data, one of the most important parts of your data
6 collection included interviews with people in the
7 community itself and displaced persons; is that
9 A. Yes. For all the local communes and
10 inhabited settlements from which the Bosniaks were
11 removed, I talked to the local residents and I gathered
12 the data. It was not such a difficult task, because
13 there were not that many people and then there were not
14 many communes like that, so there were not large
15 numbers. I know all these local communes well and a
16 fair number of people too.
17 MR. HARMON: Mr. Kajmovic, let us start then
18 with your demographic data for 1991 for the Vitez
19 municipality and in that regard, let me have the usher
20 bring to you the first binder which contains three
21 exhibits which, Mr. Dubuisson, I believe would be
22 exhibits 192, 193 and 194; is that correct?
23 Mr. President and your Honours, in respect of
24 192, there is a French and English translation
25 attached. The same is true with 193 and there is
1 neither an English nor a French translation for 194,
2 because reproducing it in French and English would have
3 lost the colours that are found on exhibit 194. It is
4 not a very complex exhibit and I think we can read or
5 have the witness read the script on 194 if the court
7 Mr. Usher, if you could put those exhibits
8 before the witness, the three exhibits.
9 Mr. Kajmovic, what I would like you to do, if
10 you would, would you kindly explain to the judges,
11 using exhibits 192, 193 and 194 what your findings were
12 in respect of the demographic data for 1991. I have
13 informed you earlier on how to use the ELMO, so if you
14 just place those items on the ELMO as you testify, we
15 can then proceed, I think, in a very effective manner.
16 A. Shall I open this?
17 MR. HARMON: You do not have to disassemble
18 them. There should be a version on the top which is in
19 your language that you can work from. It should come
20 up in front of you on the video screen. If we could
21 focus in on that complete exhibit, this is exhibit 192,
22 Mr. President and counsel. If you could explain,
23 Mr. Kajmovic, what that exhibit represents?
24 A. Yes. Here we have the borders of the
25 Municipality of Vitez. This is the dotted line . Then
1 we have the administrative territorial division of the
2 Municipality of Vitez into 17 local communes, which are
3 marked with numbers from 1 to 17, and in the right-hand
4 corner, we have the list of the names of those local
5 communes, so this is the administrative territorial
6 division of the Municipality of Vitez into these
7 smaller units. That is what is shown on this exhibit.
8 Here we also have the names of the
9 neighbouring municipalities bordering on the
10 Municipality of Vitez. North of Vitez is the
11 Municipality of Zenica. Then to the north-west is the
12 Municipality of Travnik. To the east is the
13 Municipality of Busovaca, and to the northern part is
14 the neighbouring Municipality of Novi Travnik, which is
15 not shown on the screen, and a small segment of the
16 Municipality of Fojnica, which also borders on the
17 Municipality of Vitez. Now you can see it. Here it
18 is, Novi Travnik (indicates).
19 Q. Please, Mr. Kajmovic, if you would then
20 explain the demographic data for the Vitez Municipality
21 in 1991 using the other exhibits in front of you. You
22 can remove the exhibit in front of you and place other
23 exhibits on the ELMO as you wish in making your
25 Mr. Usher, I think Mr. Kajmovic will be able to
1 manipulate those three exhibits for the time being. If
2 he has difficulty, I will ask you to assist. Thank
4 A. Here on the screen we have a table of the
5 ethnic composition of the population of the Vitez
6 municipality according to the 1991 census. The
7 composition of the population is worked out by
8 inhabited places, and it is indicated how many people
9 lived in each local community, according to the 1991
10 census, and also how that population was composed
11 ethnically. So at the bottom line, it shows the sum,
12 the total number of inhabitants. In the first column,
13 we have the number of Bosnian Croats living there,
14 according to the 1991 census, in each of the local
15 communes and at the bottom, the sum total. In those
16 same local communes, we have indicated in the second
17 column the percentage share of the Croats.
18 Then in the third column the figures are
19 given for the number of Bosniaks living in the
20 Municipality of Vitez, in the same local communes, and,
21 by looking at those columns crosswise, we can see the
22 ethnic composition, how many people of which ethnic
23 origin inhabited which local commune. Then we can see
24 the percentage share in the fourth column.
25 The fifth column indicates the number of
1 Serbs, then the sixth column their percentage share in
2 the total. Then the number of Yugoslavs in the next
3 column, their percentage share, and finally what was
4 known as "Others", their percentage share, and at the
5 end we have the total population of the Vitez
6 Municipality according to the 1991 census, and the
8 Therefore the table gives a review of the
9 ethnic composition and, of course, the number of
10 inhabitants of the Vitez Municipality, and it served as
11 a basis for monitoring all other demographic changes
12 that took place in the Municipality, and it was done on
13 the basis of the statistical book of the Statistics
14 Institute of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 According to this table, in 1991, there were
16 12,675 Bosnian Croats living in the Vitez Municipality,
17 or 45.49 per cent of the population. Then there were
18 11,514 Bosniaks or 41.2 per cent. Then there were
19 1,501 Bosnian Serbs, or 5.38 per cent; 1,377 Yugoslavs
20 or 4.94 per cent, and 792 others, or 2.84 per cent, or
21 the total population was 27,859.
22 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, for the record, you have been
23 referring to exhibit number 193. Now if you could turn
24 to exhibit 194 and explain to the Trial Chamber what
25 exhibit 194 is. First of all, place it on the ELMO.
1 First of all we need to get a focus on that complete
2 exhibit. Could you move it up a little, Mr. Kajmovic,
3 so it appears fully in the screen? That is fine, thank
4 you. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what this
5 exhibit represents?
6 A. Yes. This exhibit indicates the ethnic
7 composition of the population of the Vitez Municipality
8 in 1991, but also how that population was distributed,
9 so it is easy to see. In this document, here in the
10 frame we have dots in various colours, blue dots
11 indicating the number of Croats, Bosnian Croats in the
12 Municipality of Vitez, since according to the census
13 there were 45 per cent Bosnian Croats. On this
14 document we have 45 dots, blue dots, so each dot stands
15 for 1 per cent of the Bosnian Croats out of the total
16 population of Vitez Municipality.
17 Those blue dots are distributed on the table
18 where they actually lived, so that we can see from
19 those blue dots how the ethnic group, that is the
20 Bosnian Croats, were distributed in the Vitez
21 Municipality, and we can also see the ethnic mix of the
22 population, that they were mixed together.
23 The green dots on the document indicate the
24 Bosniaks and their distribution within the
25 Municipality. The red dots are the Bosnian Serbs and
1 their distribution in the municipality, then the brown
2 or black dots are the Yugoslavs, and finally we have
3 the white circles or white dots, indicating the others,
4 the so-called "Others", because we had some other
5 ethnic groups, which come under the heading of
7 So this is a visual presentation of the
8 population mix. Then here we also have a graphic
9 presentation of this circle, indicating the percentage
10 share of each group in the population, as we have
11 already shown in the previous table.
12 Q. All right, thank you. If the usher could now
13 reassemble that particular exhibit, but leave it at the
14 side of Mr. Kajmovic, we could now turn to a different
15 set of exhibits, but let me begin by asking you a
16 question, Mr. Kajmovic.
17 During the war the Vitez Municipality was
18 eventually divided into portions that were exclusively
19 controlled by the HVO and other portions of the Vitez
20 Municipality. They were exclusively controlled by the
21 ABiH; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In respect of the next set of exhibits which
24 will be 195 through 199, I would ask you to explain
25 your findings in the area that was exclusively
1 controlled by the HVO. Please discuss with the judges
2 your findings in respect of the displacement of ethnic
3 groups within that area and the causes for that
4 displacement. If you can identify by number, if you
5 can, Mr. Kajmovic, the number of the exhibit that you
6 have placed on the ELMO so we can refer to it later in
7 the record?
8 A. It is exhibit 195.
9 Q. Can you now explain to the court what exhibit
10 195 represents?
11 A. This document shows the Vitez Municipality.
12 These are the boundaries of the municipality. Then it
13 also shows the lines when a cessation of hostilities
14 took place on 25th February 1995. Actually, those
15 lines of confrontation, this is this line -- line of
16 separation rather -- and in the southern part of the
17 municipality, there is this line (indicates). Here we
18 have a small section which is under the control of the
19 BiH army in the centre. The green circles indicate the
20 positions of the BiH army on 25th February 1994, and the
21 blue triangles indicate the military positions of the
23 Those would be the lines of separation of
24 military forces on 25th February when the truce came
25 into effect; that is the Washington Agreement came into
1 force, but later, as can be seen, a final line of
2 separation was drawn. The document shows which part of
3 the Vitez Municipality remained in the control of the
4 BiH army, and which part of the municipality remained in
5 the control of the HVO, so this part, inside remained
6 under the control of the HVO; and this part (indicates)
7 under the control of the BiH army, as well as this part
8 here, under the BiH army control, and this small segment
9 here in the centre, called Stari Vitez, it is still
10 under the control of the BiH army.
11 Q. Now Mr. Kajmovic, could you turn to your next
12 exhibit which perhaps illustrates that even more
13 clearly, which is exhibit 196. You have now put 196 on
14 the ELMO, and that shows, does it not, Mr. Kajmovic,
15 with the fleurs-de-lis the areas controlled by the ABiH
16 and the chequer board indicates the area controlled by
17 the HVO; is that correct?
18 A. Yes. Here we have one line now, that is the
19 final line , delineated in the negotiations between the
20 representatives of the army and the HVO, so the space
21 between the two lines does not exist any more. There
22 is the final line of territorial separation, so this
23 area is under the control of the HVO and the these two
24 parts, plus this small segment here, under the control
25 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and these symbols
1 indicate under whose control the area is, which part
2 and how big a part.
3 Let me also just add that the percentage
4 share of the territory, of the area of 159 square
5 kilometres, of that 75 per cent is under BiH army
6 control and 25 per cent under HVO control and this can
7 be seen here where the percentage is indicated.
8 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, now turning to the remaining
9 exhibits in this particular package, could you explain
10 to the court your findings in respect of the ethnic
11 displacement of the various groups within the area, the
12 zone controlled by the HVO?
13 A. In the previous documents, we were able to
14 see that there was a mixture of ethnic groups in the
15 territory of the municipality, and it was to a
16 considerable degree in evidence in this area too, which
17 is now under the control of the HVO. After the
18 cessation of hostilities, an entirely different ethnic
19 composition was created as compared to what we had in
20 1991. I was extremely intrigued by this problem; that
21 is I wanted to see why this ethnic displacement had
22 taken place, whether it was perhaps the military and
23 political goal to achieve this ethnic separation of the
24 population, and that was an additional motive for me to
25 delve into these issues. Then I established what the
1 changes were.
2 The ethnic changes did not occur only in this
3 area under the control of the HVO, of course. Certain
4 ethnic displacements occurred also in this area that is
5 under the control of the BiH army, but the reasons are
6 quite different that led to this. The reasons are
7 absolutely not the same, nor are the causes the same.
8 The causes and reasons are quite different.
9 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, could you use the other exhibits
10 that are part of this package to illustrate the
11 demographic changes? What is the exhibit number on
12 that, please, Mr. Kajmovic? If you turn it over, that
13 should perhaps be exhibit 197; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, it is exhibit 197. Actually, here we
15 have two tables, but I should like to turn back for a
16 moment to exhibit 196, to show you which part of the
17 territory we are referring to. That is the question
18 that I wish to address. We are talking about changes
19 in this part of the territory (indicates).
20 So here we have two tables, showing what the
21 population structure of the population was in this area
22 that I showed a moment ago in 1991. It can be seen
23 from this document that there were 11,704 Bosnian
24 Croats living in that area, or 60.2 per cent; that
25 there were 4,691 Bosniaks, or 24.12 per cent; that
1 there were 1,240 Serbs or 6.3 per cent; 1,081
2 Yugoslavs, or 5.6 per cent; others 725 or
3 3.72 per cent, which makes a total of 19,441
4 inhabitants in this part of the territory, which was
5 under the control of the HVO after the cessation of
7 The second table tells us how many people
8 were expelled from that part of the territory, people
9 of non-Croatian ethnicity. Therefore the second table
10 shows that -- we have the number of 4,611 Bosniaks
11 expelled from that area, who had lived there until
12 1991. Then the number of Serbs, 1,140, and it should
13 be noted however that the Serbs were not expelled after
14 all, they were not expelled. They did not leave the
15 territory of Vitez Municipality under pressure. They
16 mostly left prior to the outbreak of the conflict, that
17 is before 16th April 1993, upon the call of SDS and
19 Then we have the Yugoslavs, 437 and others,
20 470, which makes a total of 6,658 inhabitants who had
21 lived there in 1991, are no longer living in this area
22 which is under the control of the HVO, so that is the
23 substance of this second table, and this document.
24 Q. Please continue, Mr. Kajmovic. Testify if you
25 would in a narrative form, informing the court and
1 counsel of your findings using all of the exhibits
2 before you. This next exhibit, Mr. Kajmovic, I take it
3 is 198; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, 198. We saw from the previous document
5 that 6,658 persons or inhabitants were expelled from
6 this area under the control of the HVO, with the
7 exception that the Serbs were not expelled, that is
8 1,140 of them. . Among those expelled were 4,611
9 Bosniaks. I studied this problem in order to find out
10 where they sought shelter, where they were expelled to
11 and where they have continued to live after the
12 cessation of hostilities and I established and showed
13 on this table where they are currently residing.
14 Within the Municipality of Vitez, 1,128
15 Bosniaks stayed behind, so they moved to that part of
16 the municipality which was under the control of the
17 BiH army. Then 2,779 Bosniaks found some sort of
18 accommodation in the neighbouring municipality of
19 Zenica, and they continued to live there. Then 516
20 Bosniaks found a new home in the 4 of
21 Travnik; 113 went to other municipalities like
22 Novi Travnik, Kakanj and so on and 75 of them left
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina and went abroad.
24 So this table tells us where those people
25 moved to after being expelled. On this exhibit, we
1 also have a graph of those displaced Bosniaks, so this
2 first column tells us that 24.45 per cent of them
3 remained within the territory of Vitez Municipality;
4 the second group of 60.26 per cent in the territory of
5 Zenica; 11.19 per cent went to the Travnik
6 municipality, and 2.45 per cent to other
7 municipalities, and 1.62 per cent abroad.
8 Of course we do not have documents here to
9 show what the situation is as regards Bosnian Croats,
10 because with a few exceptions, they have remained
11 within the territory of Vitez Municipality, or rather
12 in the area under the control of the HVO.
13 Q. Please continue, Mr. Kajmovic, with other
14 exhibits that are attached in this set. Now I believe
15 you are referring to exhibit 199; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, 199. This exhibit shows the ethnic
17 composition of the population also in the part of the
18 territory of Vitez Municipality which is under HVO
19 control in 1995, so we are talking only about that part
20 of the municipality, and this table gives us figures
21 for that.
22 From this table, we see by local communes,
23 but perhaps it is more interesting to follow the bottom
24 line of figures, because these are sum totals, showing
25 the following facts. In this area, the first column,
1 we have the figure of 15,221, that is a number
2 indicating that at the end of 1995, there were 15,221
3 Bosnian Croats living in that area. This column shows
4 -- if it is compared with the situation in 1991, then
5 we see that there are more Croats there now, a little
6 more than 2,500 more than there were in 1991.
7 The second column says that it is
8 93.38 per cent. Then we see how many Bosniaks have
9 remained in that area by local communes, and if we will
10 look up the column from top to bottom, we will see a
11 lot of zeros there, because there are no Bosniaks at
12 all living there, and at the end you have the figure of
13 80, which means that out of the 4,611 Bosniaks, only 80
14 remain, and they are living in this area under the
15 control of the HVO.
16 The third column, or rather the fifth column,
17 gives us the number of Serbs. There are about 100 of
18 them and we know that in 1991 there were 1,501 of them,
19 but in their case, as we have already pointed out, it
20 was a political decision of the SDS and they moved out
21 of the Vitez Municipality voluntarily. Then columns 6
22 and 7 indicate the number of Yugoslavs, 664, and
23 finally others, 255, which tells us that in the area
24 under HVO control at the end of 1995, there were 16,300
1 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, the bar chart that is underneath
2 that table reflects the various percentages and totals
3 of the various ethnic groups living in the
4 HVO-controlled area in 1995; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I think that is self-explanatory: it just
7 reflects, does it not, Mr. Kajmovic, the figures and the
8 percentages that are reflected in the table above it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. In here we have a graph just reflecting the
12 data from up above, so the first column shows that
13 15,221 Bosnian Croats were living in that area, and the
14 rest of the bars just show the rest of them. The
15 Bosniaks are 0.49 per cent, the Serbs 0.61, the
16 Yugoslavs 3.95 and the others 1.58. So the demographic
17 picture has been changed considerably in comparison to
18 what was there in 1991, so between 1991 and 1995 there
19 has been a considerable change and now it is basically
20 a single ethnic group area.
21 Q. In respect of the displacement of the Muslim
22 population in the HVO controlled territory, can you
23 identify the causes of that displacement to the Trial
25 A. Yes. The Bosniak population for the most
1 part has been expelled from the territory under the
2 control of the HVO and it was expelled under pressure,
3 so this was a policy whose goal and whose means was the
4 so-called ethnic cleansing of the area; that is the
5 expulsion of the population, Bosniaks most of all, and
6 so that was both the goal and that was the means.
7 There were different forms of pressure, so that this
8 population would leave this area under the control of
9 the HVO.
10 What forms were these? It was breaking into
11 apartments and houses, threat at gun point, abuse of --
12 various forms of abuse of people, and from the start of
13 the hostilities, within three or four months they had
14 to leave this area, so they were leaving under pressure
15 and they were crossing the front-lines and moving into
16 the area of the municipality under the control of the
17 army. Some of the population also left the area
18 controlled by the HVO in the form of exchanges, the
19 population exchanges. That was a smaller percentage,
20 but part of the population was also, so to speak,
21 expelled in this way from the area controlled by the
23 Q. So Mr. Kajmovic, did your findings support the
24 fact that after the cease-fire in April 1993, some
25 number of Muslims remained in the HVO-controlled
1 portions of the Vitez Municipality, but they were
2 ultimately forced out by the HVO?
3 A. Yes. I mentioned that 4,011 Bosniaks were
4 expelled. Until the attack of the HVO, they lived in
5 their own houses. After this attack, in the first few
6 days, part of the population was expelled, and in cases
7 like Ahmici, there was a genocide perpetrated, so there
8 were some Bosnians who were expelled like in Gacice and
9 Veceriska, local communes, so that was the part of
10 municipalities that was the villages, and there for the
11 most part people were already expelled in the first
12 days of the conflict, and the rest of them, about 1,600
13 lived in the urban part of Vitez, in the town of
15 This part of the population had a different
16 fate. They had no possibility of escape. They had no
17 opportunity to reach the territory under the control of
18 the BiH army, because they were surrounded by the HVO
19 front lines, so they were at home, they could not move,
20 and part of that population was arrested by the HVO and
21 taken to the camps, like the SDK building, the People's
22 University, the elementary school in Dubravica, the
23 veterinary station. For the most part, the conscripts
24 were arrested and detained. After three or four days,
25 some kind of a cease-fire was established which again
1 was not respected, and after this period a gradual
2 expulsion of these 1,600 Bosniaks ensues from the urban
3 part of Vitez.
4 A smaller percentage, feeling threatened and
5 unsafe, looked for ways to leave this urban area of
6 Vitez that was under the control of the HVO.
7 I established this through interviews. I found out
8 that they were looking for different channels and
9 contacts, even Croatian friends, so that they would
10 find ways to cross the front-lines, but the majority of
11 the population was expelled in such a way that the HVO
12 soldiers would break into their homes. They would give
13 them deadlines, sometimes they would be a couple of
14 hours, sometimes one day, for them to leave their
15 houses or apartments.
16 There was a case for instance, Niroga
17 Mulahalilovic had the experience that his former
18 student appeared, he said, "You know, director, I feel
19 very awkward but I am here to tell you that you have to
20 leave your apartment", so he collected a few belongings
21 and then he crossed the front-line.
22 In any event, the methods were different, but
23 behind them all, there was an element of force that was
25 Q. Now Mr. Kajmovic, I would like to turn to the
1 next set of exhibits with the assistance of the usher.
2 They will be exhibits 200 and 201, and these exhibits
3 will focus your attention on those parts of the Vitez
4 municipality that remained under the control of the
5 ABiH. Can you please explain to the Trial Chamber and
6 to counsel your findings in respect of the movement of
7 ethnic populations from the areas controlled by the
8 ABiH, and please use these exhibits that are before
10 A. This document, number 200 -- we cannot see it
11 now on the monitor. I do not know if I pushed
13 Q. I cannot see it either.
14 A. Maybe I touched something here.
15 MR. HARMON: We seem to have a technical
16 problem, Mr. President. I do not know if you are
17 getting an image on your screens, I am not on mine, and
18 Mr. Kajmovic is not on his.
19 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps we could continue
20 anyway, because the judges have the documents.
21 A. Fine. Here is a document similar to the
22 previous one --
23 JUDGE JORDA: We do not have them,
24 Mr. Dubuisson, do we? Let the witness explain the
25 documents, even if we do not see them on the screens.
1 We do not want to waste any time. Meanwhile the
2 technicians will try to fix it?
3 MR. HARMON: Does your Honour have a set of
4 these documents?
5 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, we do. When I said we do
6 not have it, I meant we do not have it on our screens.
7 A. It is a document similar to the previous one,
8 except that it reflects the demographic changes in the
9 territory of the Vitez Municipality under the control
10 of the ABiH, so the first chart reflects the ethnic
11 structure of the population in 1991 in the area under
12 the control of the Army of BiH, and there we see that
13 in 1991 there were 971 Bosnian Croats in the first
14 horizontal column, 6,823 Bosniaks; 261 Serbs, 296
15 Yugoslavs, 67 others, a total of 8,418, and then this
16 is also reflected in percentages.
17 The second chart, we have figures on the
18 population that has been moved from the territory under
19 the control of the army, and here the data reflects
20 that 946 Bosnian Croats were moved; the second column
21 is empty, because there were no movements of Bosniaks;
22 254 Bosnian Serbs, 22 Yugoslavs and others 21; a total
23 of 1,243.
24 The second table shows that 946 Croats moved,
25 and I need to explain this move.
1 MR. HARMON: Mr. Kajmovic, before you explain
2 that move, the ELMO is now functional again, so if you
3 could place that on the ELMO, your chart, the public
4 will have the benefit of your testimony as well?
5 A. My research confirmed some of the political
6 knowledge that we already had about the movements of
7 the Bosniaks in the Vitez Municipality. It is similar
8 to the other area in Central Bosnia. We have a
9 particular principle here at work. In the areas that
10 were not -- that did not come under the HVO control, so
11 we are talking about the area that is not under the HVO
12 control and there was movement of Croatian population,
13 the reasons were the following. The HVO followed very
14 strictly a principle which was that at any cost Bosnian
15 Croats be moved to the areas that were under their
16 military control, so from the areas where there was no
17 HVO military control to the area where they had the
18 military control, and they used all kinds of means. It
19 was the propaganda, the Croats were invited to leave
20 the areas under the control of the army and move to the
21 areas under the control of the HVO.
22 Speaking specifically of the Vitez
23 municipality, there were two forms of movement of the
24 Bosnian Croats from the area which came under the
25 control of the BiH army. One part of Croats left the
1 area which, as it later turned out, remained under the
2 control of the BiH army. In the night between 15th and
3 16th April, so that night, part of the Bosnian Croats
4 left the area which remained under the control of the
5 BiH army. This example is the one we have in the
6 Stari Vitez. There were a number of families who lived
7 in the lower part, and during that night, they moved to
8 the part of town that had been under the HVO control
9 even prior to 16th April. About 20 Croats remained in
10 Stari Vitez though.
11 Then another part of Croats, about 400 from
12 Poculica local commune, on the morning of the
13 16th which was when the conflict started, and since
14 they could not control that area militarily, this
15 number of about 400 Croats withdrew; that is they moved
16 in those early morning hours to the part of town and
17 the area that was under the control of the HVO; that is
18 the area around Dubravica and farther towards Vitez.
19 So for the most part, this move by the
20 Bosnian Croats took place partly on the eve of the
21 attack and the rest, the larger percentage, happened
22 within a day or two after that. I also want to stress
23 that the 400 Croats from Poculica withdrew when the
24 armed conflict started between the army and the HVO.
25 It is at that point that they moved out and withdrew to
1 this area.
2 I reached no conclusion as to any kind of
3 pressure that these Croats had to move out; in fact for
4 about a year I was Commander of the civilian defence
5 there, and we always took efforts to make sure that
6 these Croats also received the same humanitarian aid
7 that the rest of the population did. It should not be
8 discounted that a certain amount of pressure had been
9 exercised on some of the Croats to move out of this
11 I want to also stress that out of 946 Croats,
12 most of them moved out in the first couple of days, so
13 this movement of Croatian population for the most part
14 happened at that time. But again I want to stress that
15 there was no pressure except maybe for some individual
16 cases which cannot be excluded in the events of that
17 kind. So this is what this document speaks of.
18 I believe that I have explained that.
19 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, yet another document in front of
20 you --
21 A. Right, right. Let me just add that a total
22 of 1,243 persons moved out of the area under the
23 control of the Army of BiH.
24 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, could you also turn to a table
25 and a graph.
1 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me.
2 JUDGE RIAD: I just want to verify one
3 point. You said that most of those who moved moved in
4 the first couple of days. What do you mean "the first
5 couple of days"?
6 A. Yes. I think the first or first two days,
7 meaning 16th and 17th April. The night of 15th /16th,
8 the day of the 16th and the following day of 17th April
9 1993, so what I have in mind is 16th and 17th April
11 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
12 MR. HARMON: Mr. Kajmovic, in front of you is
13 exhibit 201. If we could get the proper focus on that
14 exhibit it would be helpful.
15 A. Yes, 201.
16 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, you are going to testify first
17 of all about the table -- on the ELMO, if the focus
18 could be brought down on the table itself, so the
19 figures could be seen clearly. Mr. Kajmovic, perhaps if
20 you could centre that diagram, or perhaps the usher can
21 assist in this case.
22 Mr. Usher, if you could show just the table,
23 the top part of that diagram, centre it there. Thank
25 A. This document reflects the ethnic structure
1 of the Vitez Municipality that was under the control of
2 the BiH army. So this is the area that we have been
3 talking about just a moment ago and from which as we
4 said 1,243 persons left. Of course, this population
5 movement of the population under the control of the
6 BiH army was unforced. There was a number of Serbs here
7 who lived in Stolevic, about 150 of them, and they left
8 this area even before 16th April, so in this chart we
9 see the demographic structure of the population in
10 1995; that is after the changes which were brought
11 about by the war.
12 So in the first column, there is a number of
13 Bosniaks who live in this area, and this is 8,282, or
14 95.92 per cent. The other columns reflects the number
15 of Croats, so if we look at column number 3, there are
16 only 25 Bosnian Croats remaining to reside in this area
17 at the end of 1995. Then Bosnian Serbs, 7,274
18 Yugoslavs and 45 others. So the total at the end of
19 1995 is 8,634 inhabitants. The main characteristics of
20 these changes as reflected in this chart are that this
21 too is now also ethnically a pretty cleansed area, but
22 there has been much less movement of population in the
23 area controlled by the HVO. There was more than 6,000
24 who moved, whereas here it is only 1,243.
25 Also the methods whereby people moved were
1 different in the area controlled by the HVO. Part of
2 the population moved voluntarily, like the Serbs, and
3 in the -- and also some of the Croats moved because
4 they were told to do so by the HVO. We also have
5 the -- we see the bars here that reflect this
6 mono-ethnic population in 1995. So this is just a
7 graphic means of expressing the same numbers and we see
8 that it is significant in this area as well, even
9 though they were brought about by different means and
10 they reflect different motives.
11 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, I was just looking at the
12 transcript. You indicated in the transcript that there
13 was much less movement -- much less population movement
14 in the areas controlled by the HVO. Did you mean the
15 HVO or the areas controlled by the ABiH?
16 A. I said that in this area under the control of
17 the army, 1,243 persons moved. This is in reference to
18 the documents which we saw before, and that is a much
19 lesser number, because in the other area, over 6,000
20 people moved, but the problem is not this. It is also
21 an important fact, whether there is 5 people or 5,000
22 people, but the essence is that the population from the
23 area controlled by the HVO were forced out, whereas in
24 the area under the control of the BiH army they were not
25 moved by force; in other words the population moved
1 voluntarily, like the Serbs did, or the Croats who left
2 certain areas by invitation of the HVO to move to the
3 area under their control, and the other reason why some
4 of the Croats left the area controlled by the BiH army
5 was the pressure, but it was pressure on the basis of
6 the military operations. I mentioned Poculica, I could
7 have also mentioned part of Kruscica which is called
8 Bobasi. That is where Croats lived and when the
9 front-line moved, they had to withdraw from that area
10 because of the combat operations that were taking place
11 there. There was no daily pressure breaking into the
12 homes to force them to move from that area.
13 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Kajmovic. I am going
14 to turn to a different area of your study. You
15 mentioned earlier and you showed us a graphic that the
16 Vitez Municipality was divided into 17 local communes.
17 Many of those particular communes remained either
18 exclusively in the territory controlled by the HVO or
19 exclusively in the territory controlled by the ABiH,
20 but some of those local communes were in fact divided
21 by the confrontation lines; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I would like to turn, if I could, to the
24 fourth set of exhibits, which will be exhibits 202
25 through 205 which, Mr. Kajmovic, as you will shortly see
1 are tables showing the population movements of the
2 various ethnic groups within the local communes
3 themselves, so if you would be so kind starting with
4 exhibit 202 by placing that on the ELMO and explaining
5 to the members of the Trial Chamber what this exhibit
6 represents, and then we will go through the remaining
7 other exhibits, 203 and 204 and 205. I appreciate it,
8 thank you.
9 A. This is a document which compares the figures
10 and it gives the comparison of the number of Bosniaks
11 in 1991 as compared to the number in 1995. So we have
12 the figures for each local commune, and the table tells
13 us exactly how many Bosniaks were living in each local
14 community in 1991 and how many of them were left in
15 1995. If we take for instance this first horizontal
16 line, the number of Bosniaks living in Sadovaca local
17 commune, there were 369 of them.
18 Here is the percentage as compared to the
19 total number of inhabitants of the local commune. Then
20 we have the number of expelled Bosniaks by the end of
21 the war, that is the end of 1995, and the number of
22 Bosniaks that remained in 1995 were 380. This is the
23 number of Bosniaks at the end of 1995, but we cannot
24 see any expulsion of Bosniaks; in fact there are a few
25 more of them than there were. This is because that
1 part of the local commune remained under the control of
2 the BiH army, whereas the part of the same local commune
3 under the control of the HVO is inhabited by Bosnian
4 Croats, so there was no shifting of the lines between
5 the ethnic territories.
6 In the local commune of Bukva, again we have
7 no ethnic changes because it is a single ethnic
8 communities inhabited by Bosniaks. In fact the number
9 of inhabitants increased due to refugees coming from
10 the area under the control of the HVO. Then the local
11 commune of Lupac, again no changes because it is a
12 Bosniak settlement, Preocica the same; Stare Bila, we
13 have a change. For instance there were 2,929 Bosniaks
14 living there in 1991 and at the end of 1995, we see the
15 figure zero, which means that all 2,929 of them had
16 been expelled. Then the local commune of Jardol, there
17 used to be 743 Bosniaks living there in 1991. At the
18 end of 1995, there are none; they were all expelled.
19 Then the local commune of Krcevine in 1991
20 and it is under HVO control. This local commune, there
21 were 173 Bosniaks, and we see the figure of 134, which
22 means somewhat less than before, but this is due to the
23 fact that the northern part of that local commune
24 remains under the BiH army control, so the Bosniaks
25 stayed on there. In Dubravica, we have the number of
1 Bosniaks, 447; then somewhat less, 358. There are
2 fewer of them because a part of that local commune was
3 under the control of the HVO, and that is why the total
4 number is smaller because the local commune has been
5 cut in half, so they have remained in the area under
6 the army control, whereas the area under HVO control
7 there are none.
8 Then the local commune of 25th May there were
9 471 Bosniaks. We see there are 316 of them now, which
10 is somewhat less. Again the same applies to this local
11 commune, because it was cut in half. The area under
12 army control has retained its Bosniak population,
13 whereas the area under HVO control has none.
14 Then Ahmici, it is a specific case. In 1991,
15 there were 506 Bosniaks living there, 508, and here we
16 see that there are none left. There are no Bosniaks
17 left there, because they were expelled in the first two
18 days of the fighting, 16th and 17th April, and, of
19 course, 117 people were killed.
20 The local commune of Poculica, with respect
21 to Bosniaks, there were no population changes because
22 it remained under the control of the army; in fact we
23 have an increase of the number of Bosniaks due to
24 people coming over from other areas. Then we have
25 significant changes in the local communes of Vitez 1
1 and Vitez 2, which are dealt with jointly in this
2 table, and we see that there were about 2,647 Bosniaks
3 living there, that there are now 1,166, which means
4 that about 1,500 have been expelled, which is from the
5 part of the town that is under HVO control. They have
6 remained in that small part called Stari Vitez which
7 remains under the control of the BiH army.
8 Then the local commune of Rijeka; here we
9 have some minor changes in the population. We will be
10 able to see later what those changes are. A part of
11 this local commune also remained under the control of
12 the army and a part under the HVO control, so that the
13 population was expelled from the part under the HVO
14 control, though a small percentage did remain as part
15 of those 80 people I mentioned. Then the local commune
16 of Kruscica, there were no significant changes with
17 respect to the Bosniak population. That local commune
18 is also divided by the separation line; a part is under
19 the control of the army, a part under the HVO, and that
20 is why there are no major changes.
21 Then the local commune of Gacice, in the
22 first line we see there were 325 Bosniaks and in the
23 third column, we see a zero, which means all the
24 Bosniaks were expelled from this local commune, because
25 the HVO captured this local commune, the local commune
1 of Gacice.
2 Veceriska, first we see there were 388
3 Bosniaks; in the third line we see none, so this is
4 another local commune captured by the HVO for three
5 days, during the first few days of the conflict, and we
6 have no Bosniaks there left.
7 So there were a total of 11,514 Bosniaks in
8 1991, and at the end of 1995, there are 8,352 of them.
9 That is the reduction due to so-called ethnic
11 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, now could you turn to exhibits
12 203, 204 and 205 and, without going into such detail,
13 can you just briefly explain if those charts likewise
14 compare the data between 1991 and 1995 --
15 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Harmon. I have to come
16 in at this point. Obviously you cannot summarise
17 months and months of studies, and we want to
18 congratulate the witness for having done that, but we
19 would like to see you explain the method, explain the
20 other charts. Just start with the totals. Discuss the
21 results of the research and point out those points
22 which you think are the most important, such as the
23 village of Sadovaca, where there was a correlation with
24 the first chart you referred to. We do not want to
25 spend the entire afternoon with these charts. You did
1 explain the issue of demographic changes, it has been
2 explained well, and now let us try to synthesise the
3 work that has been done. Thank you very much.
4 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, then for the
5 record, the remaining charts which are exhibits 203,
6 204 and 205 are like comparative studies done in
7 respect of the ethnic populations of Croats, Serbs and
8 others in the various local communes in the Vitez
9 municipality, comparing the data from 1991 to 1995. If
10 the court desires, after taking a look at these
11 exhibits briefly, any explanation from Mr. Kajmovic, he
12 is prepared to expand further on those; otherwise we
13 will turn to our additional set of exhibits, our last
14 sets of exhibits.
15 JUDGE JORDA: I would like the witness to
16 explain something. We are not going to go from one
17 extreme to another. I would like the witness to
18 explain for the other three charts the general idea.
19 If there are any specific comments that he wants to
20 make, let him make them, but in general terms, this is
21 what the judges would like the witness to do. Please
22 go ahead.
23 A. Yes, a summary. The substance, the aim was,
24 as this is a case study in terms of research, this is
25 considered a case study, and then one is able to enter
1 into the details at greater length, so I try to
2 establish at the micro level what the actual changes
3 were in each local commune and inhabited places.
4 I believe that there are a lot of figures and data
5 involved, so I think that we will not lose too much
6 time if we go on to these last exhibits which show the
7 final outcome of the ethnic cleansing.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I think that we could now
9 move to another series of questions. It is almost
10 self-evident, Mr. Harmon. If later the
11 cross-examination by the Defence were to contest this
12 or that figure, we would then go back to the details,
13 but I think that if everybody agrees about the general
14 sense of the testimony, we could move to another
15 question. You must decide what is the best to do now.
16 MR. HARMON: Fine, thank you, Mr. President.
17 If I could have the assistance of the usher
18 and move to my final two exhibits, which are 206 and
19 207. This will put into focus the demographic changes
20 in the whole of the Vitez Municipality, that is both
21 areas, those areas controlled by the HVO and those
22 areas controlled by the ABiH, and it will indicate the
23 data in 1995. These obviously, Mr. President, can be
24 compared with exhibits 193 and 194, which show the
25 baseline data in 1991. If I could have Mr. Kajmovic
1 start with exhibit 206, which is a table and a graph,
2 and if the table itself could be put into sharp focus,
3 Mr. Kajmovic can start with the table itself, and then
4 turn to the graph that is associated with it.
5 A. Here we have a table showing the ethnic
6 composition of the population of Vitez Municipality at
7 the end of 1995; that is the ethnic composition that
8 was the result of the war and of the ethnic cleansing.
9 The first column gives us the number of Bosnian
10 Croats. There were 15,246 of them as compared to
11 1991. We see that their number has increased by about
12 2,500. Then the number of Bosniaks, 8,362, as compared
13 to 11,500, their number has gone down; the number of
14 Serbs 107, as compared to 1,501 in 1991, again a
15 drastic reduction; among the Yugoslavs, 1,377, there
16 are 918 left; as for others, their number has gone down
17 from about 790 to 301, and finally we have the total
18 population which is 24,934, and we know that Vitez
19 Municipality, at the end of 1991, had close to 28,000
21 So here we have the collective figures of the
22 ethnic structure, but the main goal of this table is
23 not to show how much one ethnic group has decreased or
24 another increased in number, but rather to show the
25 zeros which show how extreme the ethnic cleansing was.
1 So, compared with the table for 1991, you will rarely
2 in that table find a zero for any ethnic group in
3 hardly any local commune, but here you will see quite a
4 large number of those zeros, though this cannot be seen
5 from this table, but the parts of local communes under
6 the control of the HVO are completely without other
7 inhabitants. But this cannot be seen from this table,
8 in the case of local communes that were divided, but
9 there is an obvious drastic change in the population
11 Then we have a graph, a bar chart, reflecting
12 the composition of the population in 1995, and you can
13 see that 61.14 per cent are Croats, whereas in 1991,
14 they constituted 45 per cent of the total, which means
15 their share has increased by more than 16 per cent.
16 There were 41 per cent Bosniaks, there are
17 33.53 per cent of them now, so that their number has
18 gone down by about 7 or 8 per cent; the number of Serbs
19 has also drastically decreased, but I must note that
20 they left the area voluntarily. The number of
21 Yugoslavs has gone down, but not to such an extent, and
22 the number of others has also gone down, though not to
23 the same extent as in the case of Bosniaks and Serbs.
24 Those are the consequences of the ethnic cleansing.
25 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, could you then turn to the last
1 exhibit which is exhibit 207, a map with various
2 coloured dots. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber
3 what this particular exhibit represents.
4 A. Yes. At the beginning, we had a similar
5 ethnic map which showed the distribution of the
6 population in Vitez Municipality in 1991. Now we have
7 another map showing how that population is ethnically
8 distributed within the territory of Vitez
9 Municipality. Comparing it with the first map, we can
10 see that in this area which is under the control of the
11 HVO, we have mostly blue dots, which stand for the
12 percentage share of the Croats, and here we see the
13 percentage that they constitute 61 per cent, so we have
14 61 of these blue dots showing how those Bosnian Croats
15 are distributed in this area.
16 In this other part, in this other segment, we
17 have these green dots, as well as up here, (indicates)
18 which show that there are Bosniaks living there, and
19 the number of dots is indicative of their percentage
20 share, which is about 33 per cent. Here in this small
21 circle which covers the territory of Stari Vitez, it
22 shows us the percentage share of the population living
24 There are -- the substance of this table is a
25 review of the changes that have occurred in the
1 distribution of the population. So we have a
2 significant departure from the previous distribution of
3 the population, that is in 1991. So these are the
4 figures that we have already mentioned, 6,000 and
5 something inhabitants moved out of this part, whereas
6 from these two parts 1,200 were displaced.
7 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. Kajmovic.
8 Mr. President, I would now move into evidence
9 Prosecution exhibits 192 through to 207. I have
10 concluded my examination of Mr. Kajmovic, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE JORDA: We will now take a break for 30
13 (4.20 pm)
14 (A short break)
15 (5.00 pm)
16 JUDGE JORDA: We will resume the hearing now,
17 please have the accused brought in.
18 (Accused brought in)
19 JUDGE JORDA: We will begin with the
20 cross-examination of the witness. Let me remind you
21 that we are going to sit today until 7.00. Mr. Nobilo,
22 go ahead.
23 Cross-examined by MR. NOBILO
24 Q. Thank you, your Honour.
25 Mr. Kajmovic, good evening. As you heard,
1 I am Anto Nobilo and together with Russell Hayman, my
2 colleague, we represent General Blaskic and I am going
3 to ask you a few questions. Has your work been
4 published anywhere?
5 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's microphone is
6 not on, please.
7 A. No, the paper has not been published yet.
8 There is a plan to defend it in June or July, in front
9 of the committee at the Political Science School in
10 Sarajevo. There will be three PhD members of this
12 MR. NOBILO: Have you provided the Prosecution
13 either an outline of your thesis or any tables?
14 A. Only the part concerning demographic changes
15 which were relevant for this topic were provided to the
17 Q. This is what you gave to the Prosecutor?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we do not want any
20 delay, and we will continue with the cross-examination,
21 but I would just like to notify you that Mr. Kajmovic
22 has been -- that we were notified of Mr. Kajmovic's
23 testimony several months ago. We know him as a member
24 of the Bosniak party. He is one of the key figures
25 concerning the conflict there, but only on Friday did
1 we receive the information that Dr. Kajmovic would be
2 called as an expert witness, and we received absolutely
3 no accompanying documents. We feel that it was
4 necessary for you to know this, but we will continue
5 the cross-examination anyway.
6 JUDGE JORDA: You did not even get the
7 charts, the tables? You did not get any of that?
8 MR. NOBILO: Nothing, your Honour, nothing.
9 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon?
10 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, under a court order
11 that both Defence counsel and the Prosecutor
12 understood, and have corresponded about in the past, it
13 is our understanding that expert reports are not
14 discoverable. That is based on a court order of this
15 chamber issued many, many, many months ago. In the
16 course of the subsequent conversations with counsel, we
17 have had a dialogue in writing, in part, about that
18 decision. I can provide a copy to the court of
19 correspondence, but that has been our understanding,
20 and we have operated on that in good faith.
21 MR. HAYMAN: May I state our position?
22 JUDGE JORDA: Just a moment, please. I am
23 looking at things on a somewhat different level.
24 I think there are two issues here. The issue was
25 brought in because of his position in the SDA, that is
1 the first problem, but the second one is to do with
2 what I would like to focus the debate on, which has to
3 do with the expert report, which you cannot say really
4 is a report because it has not been given as a report
6 I am referring to these charts, and
7 I understand it is not easy to cross-examine if you
8 base yourself only on charts. That is what I find a
9 bit surprising, because when we think about it from the
10 point of view of an adversarial system, the report
11 should have been at least made available to the Defence
12 or if not made available, that they would have been
13 informed about it. There should have been a report.
14 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I received the
15 tables myself this weekend when I started talking to
16 Mr. Kajmovic. We were aware of the existence of
17 those -- before this weekend, not just this weekend.
18 The tables were not translated before the weekend.
19 I have been working with them in order to get them in a
20 form that I and your Honours would understand in order
21 that they could be presented today. However, to answer
22 your question directly, Mr. President, the charts were
23 not turned over to counsel. When we concluded we would
24 be having him testify about reports he brought with him
25 from Bosnia to here, we informed counsel, but it took
1 some time for me to review and understand those, but
2 they have not been provided to counsel, that is
4 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, do you want to
6 MR. HAYMAN: Please. Our position as to this
7 witness, your Honour, is that his Master's thesis and
8 any drafts of that thesis are not in the nature of an
9 expert report, but are his statements. Even if it is a
10 draft, it is still written by the witness, it is in his
11 hand, and if any portions of that thesis have been
12 provided to the Prosecutor, they were owed to the
13 Defence as prior statements of the witness. I agree
14 with Mr. Harmon that the court's earlier order did not
15 direct the production of expert reports by the
16 Prosecutor. Although we think that that would be a
17 good idea, that is not the way the rules are in the
18 system I am familiar with, where statements of experts
19 are normally produced, but with respect to this
20 witness, we are not raising that issue, we are simply
21 suggesting that portions of his thesis were statements
22 and that it would have facilitated things had we gotten
23 them. But we wish to proceed; we do not wish to delay
24 the proceedings.
25 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, may I clarify one
1 point? That is the report, so it is perfectly clear
2 for the record, any reports that Mr. Kajmovic had
3 accompanying the tables were not in a language
4 I understood, nor have they ever been translated by
5 me. These tables and charts when I discussed the
6 issues with Mr. Kajmovic were the tables and charts that
7 he had contained in his study that would illuminate his
8 efforts to assess the demographic changes. When we
9 concluded that that would be an area of expert
10 testimony, given the fact that there probably are very
11 few people in the world who have studied the ethnic
12 demographic changes in Vitez Municipality under what
13 are extremely difficult circumstances, we concluded
14 that he is -- would be an expert in the area. We
15 notified counsel of that and I can say very honestly to
16 this court, Mr. President, the reports that he has that
17 accompany those tables and charts I have never read.
18 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if I may, we
19 understand the situation. However, you need to know
20 that for months, we have been misled. For months we
21 have looked at Mr. Munib Kajmovic as a key figure in the
22 international conflict. He was the President of the
23 SDA and led the efforts of the SDA during the conflict,
24 and now we find out that he is an expert. Had we known
25 that he would be called as an expert, that is how we
1 would have prepared our cross-examination, and that
2 would have been our preparation for this hearing. But
3 again, we are prepared to continue, nevertheless.
4 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Nobilo and
5 Mr. Harmon. While you were speaking, I was able to
6 consult with my colleagues very quickly. As regards
7 the first point, that having to do with the surprise
8 you expressed that he is not testifying about that area
9 about which he said he was an expert before that, that
10 is not something that we can do anything about. We
11 cannot do anything about that, because that was the
12 strategy of the Prosecutor. However in order to ensure
13 equitable treatment, my colleagues want me to speak for
14 them and to say that if, confronted with these charts
15 which are complicated and which would require possibly
16 a thorough review, if at any point you would like to
17 have this witness brought back again, the Tribunal will
18 grant that wish and it can be done.
19 MR. NOBILO: We will try to conduct the
20 cross-examination, but if at the end of the
21 cross-examination we determine that we have not
22 illuminated all the details, we will request that the
23 witness be recalled.
24 JUDGE JORDA: Then we agree.
25 MR. NOBILO: Thank you.
1 Mr. Kajmovic, your mentor, Mr. Mirko Pejanovic,
2 what is the area of his expertise?
3 A. There are various subjects from the area of
4 political science and I do not know exactly what topic
5 he covers, because he was appointed to it by the
6 faculty, but I think he covers various areas. For
7 instance, he probably is a lecturer in the methodology,
8 the social system, interest groups, so I do not know
9 exactly what subject he is lecturing in right now.
10 Q. What exactly is the title of your MA thesis?
11 A. Political and demographic changes in the
12 Vitez Municipality between 1992 and 1995.
13 Q. When you conducted consultations about this
14 thesis, was it agreed that you would reflect the
15 demographic changes in numbers and statistics, or did
16 you also agree on researching the causes of demographic
18 A. It was specified which aspects would be
19 treated. The historical aspect from the Turkish era to
20 Austro-Hungary and pre-World War II and the modern
21 time, then there will be an economic aspect, the
22 economic development part, then the administrative
23 territorial position of the Vitez Municipality; then
24 the elections of 1990, so all this is contained in the
25 thesis. Then there will be combat operations in the
1 area from 16th April 1993 to 25th February 1994, and
2 also it was indicated that the demographic changes
3 would be covered as a result of the war efforts and the
4 ethnic cleansing.
5 Q. What I am interested in is that in your
6 thesis, was the agreement also made that the causes,
7 the root causes, of the population movements will also
8 be treated; is that what is written there?
9 A. No, but only the demographic changes, but if
10 you do not go into the causes scientifically, it is not
11 a valid thesis, so you have to go to the causes of
12 these movements.
13 Q. Very well. Let us go to the causes of these
14 demographic changes. What scientific method did you
15 use to determine the causes of demographic changes in
16 the Vitez Municipality?
17 A. This probably can be viewed from two
18 standpoints, purely theoretical, looking at it from the
19 political point of view, reflecting global political
20 interests and more locally, or what changes followed
21 these global political motives, so the changes on the
22 ground. These two aspects have to be combined and the
23 causes cannot be looked for on a purely local level, so
24 you have to look at the general or global political
25 changes that were taking place in Bosnia in those days.
1 Q. Okay, from the global and local points of
2 view. How did you proceed? What did you look for when
3 you were looking for causes of the population
4 movements? What specifically did you do?
5 A. When speaking of the causes, we know what
6 happened on the ground, and when now you try to find a
7 theoretical foundation for it, when you try to explain
8 why this happened, you have to start from a wider point
9 of view, both in terms of the time period and the
10 geography. You have to see where the policy of the HVO
11 was created, who was involved and what was the final
13 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, in your response, you said, "we
14 know what happened". As a scholar, for the purposes of
15 your work, did you go to research what happened or you
16 used your previous knowledge as the President of the
17 SDA in Vitez?
18 A. No, I worked on the ground and I used
19 documents to support my thesis of what happened.
20 Q. This is precisely my question. What was it
21 that you were looking for, what documents were you
22 looking at and how did your research on the ground
24 A. As concerning documents, I used the documents
25 by the Civilian Defence Headquarters in Vitez. Then
1 I used Red Cross Vitez documents, and Merhamet
2 documents, and the local commune services of the Vitez
3 Municipality documents and what was most important for
4 me, it was the interviews with persons who were
5 expelled and people who went in the field, so that was
6 the research in the field. So the research in the
7 field and the interviews helped me to confirm the data
8 from the documents which I received from institutions
9 like the census of the Bosnia area which was conducted
10 by the Civilian Defence Headquarters in Vitez.
11 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, now we are talking about your
12 research of the causes of the population movements. In
13 the documents of the Civilian Defence Headquarters in
14 Vitez, and I presume that this is the headquarters of
15 the Bosniak side, as well as the Merhamet documents,
16 the Red Cross documents and others, are there
17 statistical data there or are there causes also
18 addressed there?
19 A. Just the data, and I did that to compare it
20 to see what were the causes.
21 Q. Very well. Let us then focus on the
22 interviews. What method of finding the right sample
23 did you use? In other words, how did you go about
24 selecting the persons that you interviewed? Was it
25 random sample or not?
1 A. With interviews, I used the principle that
2 from each area from where people were expelled, that
3 would be the Ahmici, Jardol, which includes Grbavica,
4 Veceriska, Gacice and Vitez 1 local communes, so I knew
5 the areas from which the people were expelled, so
6 I used random samples and I interviewed a certain
7 number of people there and then I summed up the results
8 and I arrived at the ways and means by which these
9 people were forced out.
10 Q. How many people did you interview from these
11 five local communes?
12 A. I conducted about 40 to 50 interviews.
13 Q. Was it evenly spread out over the communes?
14 A. Yes, approximately.
15 Q. How many men, how many women?
16 A. I paid attention that the age groups be
17 represented, so I took care to interview some younger
18 people, older people and some women, so I did take that
19 into account.
20 JUDGE JORDA: When you speak to one another,
21 it is best to turn off your microphones.
22 MR. NOBILO: When analysing these statements,
23 did you ask your investigators if you used them or did
24 you set out in advance that you would take this many
25 women or men or was it random?
1 A. It is not random. I know what the interviews
2 are, I know what the survey is, I know what the
3 historical methods are of using the scientific methods,
4 I had to adjust, so it is not my own personal wish
5 which led me to this result.
6 Q. In these interviews, Mr. Kajmovic, did you
7 come across for instance the cases for instance from
8 Gacice, a population left under the protection of the
9 international forces?
10 A. Yes, I have certain data reflecting that for
12 Q. Do you know and did you come across this in
13 the interviews, that after two days of fighting in
14 Donje Veceriska, the military left, together with the
15 population, in an organised manner?
16 A. This is a fact that a few people who had some
17 weapons there pulled back together with the population,
18 but, militarily speaking, this was not any significant
19 organised military force.
20 Q. Next question. Do you know that the civilian
21 population of Donje Veceriska withdrew together with
22 those few people with weapons?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Before the HVO came to where they were?
25 A. No. The HVO attacked Donje Veceriska, and
1 after this attack, the population withdrew.
2 Q. Together with those few people under arms?
3 A. Yes, together with those few people who had
4 some arms; that is the information I obtained.
5 Q. Do you know that UNPROFOR participated in
6 this operation, in moving out the population from Donje
8 A. I am not familiar with those details.
9 Q. Regarding Grbavica, Jardol, the local
10 commune, do you know that again the inhabitants left
11 Grbavica under protection and in an organised fashion?
12 A. That is out of the question. The inhabitants
13 of Grbavica at the beginning of September, I think it
14 was 4th or 5th September, after the line was broken
15 through, the front-line, the population pulled out, at
16 least the few that were there while the lines were
18 Q. So when the front-line was broken through, the
19 Bosnian army was broken through, a part of the
20 population pulled out?
21 A. Yes, a part of the population pulled out.
22 Q. In your view, regarding Grbavica for example,
23 did the population of Grbavica withdraw because of
24 combat operation, because the army belonging to that
25 population was losing its positions on the front, or
1 because flats were broken into and the people were
2 exposed to force and violence? What is the reason for
3 the withdrawal of the population of Grbavica?
4 A. The case of Grbavica is to some extent rather
5 specific. A part of the population in that locality,
6 due to combat operations, was withdrawn, but a part
7 remained, and after the line fell, a smaller section
8 withdrew, but for instance 1,500 inhabitants of the
9 local commune Vitez 1, or Vitez 2, that is the town of
10 Vitez proper, were entirely surrounded and they had to
11 leave the town under pressure through various forms of
13 The same happened to the inhabitants of
14 Veceriska, also Gacice, also the inhabitants of the
15 local commune of Ahmici. Therefore we have a slightly
16 different situation in this case, which could perhaps
17 compare with a part of Bobasi, the local commune of
18 Kruscica inhabited by Croats, where the population also
19 had to withdraw because the front-line changed, but
20 viewed globally, these ethnic displacements were large,
21 and these were peripheral cases, because on the whole,
22 this was systematic ethnic cleansing. There are always
23 certain exceptions to the rule and there is no doubt
24 about it.
25 Q. Regarding what happened in Grbavica,
1 according to your research, in Grbavica, Donje
2 Veceriska and Gacice, is it similar or different to
3 what happened in Vitez 1 and 2?
4 A. There are certain differences. To be
5 specific, in Donje Veceriska, the inhabitants after a
6 night and a day pulled out facing the attack of the
7 HVO, whereas in Vitez, the town itself, which was under
8 HVO control, there were no combat operations. The
9 1,500 Bosniaks in the city centre were actually
10 contained within that centre and there was nowhere they
11 could go, and then pressure was brought to bear on them
12 and they were expelled, whereas in the case of
13 Veceriska, the HVO gave them some space, a way out, so
14 to speak, that they could go through to reach the
15 line behind which the BiH army had control. Of course,
16 a certain number of civilians were killed in the
18 Q. How many?
19 A. I do not have the exact figure, but I think
20 up to about ten women and men were killed.
21 Q. So have I understood you well: when you say
22 that the situation in the town of Vitez was one and the
23 situation in the villages was a different one?
24 A. In principle, there is no difference. The
25 Bosniak population of Veceriska would never have left
1 that area if it had not been for the HVO attacks on
2 that local commune. As regards the town of Vitez
3 itself, 1,500 Bosniaks of Vitez would never have left
4 that part of town, even though the HVO did not attack
5 it, because it already had it under its control before
6 then, the people would not have left. I am one of the
7 inhabitants of the town of Vitez, my house that I built
8 for 16 years, it is across the road from the secondary
9 school, and many other people like me who live there
10 abandoned it and were expelled from that area.
11 Therefore from the point of view of the
12 principle, the principle is force. They left this area
13 under pressure of force, under coercion. That is the
14 basic principle. Whether it was expressed in this or
15 that way with certain shades of differences, certain
16 nuances, the principle remains the same. Behind the
17 displacement of the population, there was force and
18 nothing else, when we are talking about the area under
19 HVO control.
20 Q. Are war operations a force? Is that
22 A. Of course a war is coercion. The HVO attack
23 is a force. If somebody is attacking you with arms,
24 you have to flee your home.
25 Q. In your research, did you study the documents
1 of the International Red Cross or the Vitez
2 Municipality, and I mean the part of the municipality
3 under control of the Croats, and from these documents,
4 it would follow that under the control of the
5 International Red Cross, all the people who left Vitez
6 made a statement saying that they were doing so
7 voluntarily and that they had chosen the place they
8 were going to themselves. Have you seen those
10 A. I have not seen the Red Cross documents, but
11 I have seen some UNHCR documents, containing certain
12 statistical reports on the number of inhabitants, the
13 number of exiles and the number who lived there and
14 these are quite inaccurate, because those data were
15 given to them by both the Croatian and the Bosniak
16 sides, and they exaggerated them by about 50 per cent,
17 so as to get a little more humanitarian aid. That is
18 why the UNHCR data are quite incorrect.
19 As for the statements given by the displaced
20 persons to the Red Cross, I have not had any insight
21 into them, but through my interviews, I learnt some
22 things. The HVO is in the town centre where the
23 municipal library is and an office was organised there,
24 to which the Bosniaks would come and they had to sign
25 documents there saying that they were moving out
1 voluntarily and that they -- they even had to exchange
2 apartments. Of course, under wartime conditions that
3 were very risky, people sought to get out at all cost,
4 from that environment. A better description would be
5 to say to escape from hell.
6 When they had to go to the Zenica
7 Municipality, to move into a Croatian flat, there was
8 not recognised, of course, that people were manipulated
9 by the HVO and that was how this area was ethnically
10 cleansed. Therefore I am quite familiar with this and
11 I think that the statements collected by the HVO and
12 that may have been given to the Red Cross under those
13 circumstances are irrelevant, because the statements
14 would surely be quite different if they were not
15 exposed to the same kind of risk.
16 Q. Are you aware of the documents made under the
17 supervision of the Red Cross in Vitez, when people were
18 leaving the school at Dubravica, the cinema hall
19 et cetera; have you seen those documents?
20 A. I have not seen those documents, but I know
21 that a certain number of people were detained in the
22 Workers' University, which was a camp; also another
23 group of people opposite that camp across the way in
24 the SDK social accounting service building, I know that
25 when Sefer Halilovic came and signed the cease-fire,
1 when he arrived at the Workers' University and arranged
2 with the HVO authorities that a certain number be
3 released that at the time 12 to 15 people were taken to
4 Busovaca, so I am aware of all these details. But what
5 I wish to underline here is that the statements and the
6 certificates, decisions signed in the library in Vitez
7 under the HVO auspices are irrelevant, and that they
8 give you quite a different picture from what those same
9 people would tell you now.
10 Their main motive, their main wish is to get
11 out and save their lives, because a certain number of
12 people were killed there, a certain number of Bosniaks
13 were killed within those areas, that is the areas under
14 HVO control before 16th April. So no BiH army
15 representatives were there at the time, so they sought
16 to get out in whatever way they could.
17 Q. So will you agree with me that it follows
18 from everything that you have said that your only
19 source of information regarding the causes of departure
20 from the Municipality of Vitez were interviews, and
21 that you did not have insight into all the documents of
22 the Red Cross and the authorities in Vitez?
23 A. Red Cross data mainly say whether somebody
24 was detained, that he was a prisoner, that after that,
25 he received a booklet which proves that he was a
1 detainee, and in this decision or this booklet, you
2 cannot find anything except what I have just said.
3 Q. So you did not see the document in which a
4 citizen gives a statement where he wishes to go and
5 that he is going voluntarily?
6 A. I have not seen those documents, but I know
7 from my method of interviews that people were asked,
8 "Do you want to go to Travnik or do you want to go to
9 Zenica?" But one could ask a different question, why
10 was such a question put to those people? Who are the
11 people who are ready to leave their homes and then
12 somebody would ask them, "Where is it you want to go?"
13 Q. You have just explained your method regarding
14 the Bosniaks. Will you please tell me, did you respect
15 the basic principles of science -- were the same
16 principles applied when interviewing Croats?
17 A. No. In view of the fact that the political
18 situation over there is what it is, it is theoretically
19 unfeasible for me to go there and carry out research,
20 even to have this method of interviews, so I point out
21 in my thesis that this part of the data were obtained
22 by estimates, using auxiliary data, so that when
23 talking about the paper as a whole, then these
24 demographic changes are quite precise with respect to
25 one segment, and when it comes to the Croatian segment,
1 there may be certain deviations, as I said, of 5 to
2 6 per cent. They cannot be more than that, so that
3 these data may also be accepted as being correct.
4 Q. You have not understood me. My question was,
5 what was your method for establishing the reasons for
6 the departure of Croats? Did you use the same methods
7 among Croats and Serbs to establish why those people
8 left their homes?
9 A. It is not possible for me to do any kind of
10 research in the area under HVO control, because the
11 Bosniaks have been expelled from those parts.
12 Q. I apologise, but please listen to me. My
13 question is: did you interview the Croats who fled from
14 territories under control of the BiH army? Did you
15 interview them to see why they had fled their homes?
16 A. Since this applies to some 900 Croats, since
17 I am aware of the case of Croats in Stari Vitez, I did
18 not conduct interviews, but I pointed out those few
19 cases. There are about 400 Croats who were living in
20 the local commune of Poculica who, on 16th April, in
21 the morning, the first day when the HVO did not manage
22 to gain control of that particular local commune, they
23 left that area together with HVO members, so this was
24 almost half of the Croats that were moved, and the
25 other half of Croats who were displaced are the Croats
1 in the local commune of Kruscica in Bobasi, who during
2 combat operations later on, when the front-line was
3 moved, they withdrew within the territory under HVO
4 control. Therefore the changes that occurred among the
5 Croats happened practically in the first couple of
6 days, and, of course, a certain percentage of Croats
7 withdrew that night, so logic says that they must have
8 been informed by the HVO to cross over to territory
9 under their control.
10 Q. Let me put the same question differently. In
11 your research, when establishing the causes for the
12 fleeing of Croats from their homes in the territories
13 under BiH army command, did you use any scientific
14 methods or did you use your knowledge while you were
15 President of the SDA in Vitez?
16 A. My role has --
17 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, let me have a chance
18 to object. I object, Mr. President. The question has
19 been asked and answered about three or four times.
20 Mr. Kajmovic has explained why he could not do research
21 and how he conducted his investigation in respect of
22 displaced Croats.
23 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, sustained. Change
24 questions, please.
25 MR. NOBILO: You mentioned the case of Croats
1 moving when the front-line changed. Is that according
2 to ethnic cleansing, or is it movement due to combat
3 operations? How would you define it?
4 A. In the specific case of Bobasi, then one
5 could apply the reasoning that it was due to a change
6 in the front-line in the case of Croats, and the same
7 applies to Grbavica where the Bosniaks were displaced
8 because of a change in the front-line.
9 Q. Tell me, with respect to the movement of
10 Croats from the territory under BiH army control, was
11 that influenced by the fact that in Krizancevo Selo,
12 the BiH army killed 74 civilians, in Buhine Kuce 30, in
13 Sadovaca another 30. Were those facts established
14 according to you and did this influence the
15 displacement of Croats from the territory under BiH army
17 A. A part of the analysis has been left out. In
18 that part of the analysis, reference is made to the
19 consequences of the war or rather the HVO aggression
20 against the Bosniaks of Vitez. I have only analysed
21 briefly a table showing that 4,000 and something
22 Bosniaks were expelled,, that some went to Zenica, some
23 to Travnik and some went abroad. We left out the part
24 dealing with the 3,514 Bosniaks killed. We left that
25 part out. I investigated that matter and, regarding
1 the number of Croats killed, of course, I only have
2 certain estimates for that.
3 My estimates show that the number is not
4 small, that a large number of people were killed, but
5 this case that Mr. Nobilo is mentioning, Bobasi,
6 Krizancevo Selo, those are classical combat operations
7 between the army and the HVO conducted during the war,
8 and there were certain minor changes in the front-line
9 to one side or the other, so this was a traditional
10 clash between two armies. So one cannot talk about the
11 suffering of civilians in this case, as for instance
12 when the army captured a certain territory and
13 conducted a massacre. That is not true, Krizancevo
14 Selo remained under HVO control, and a part of Buhine
15 Kuce also remained under HVO control.
16 Q. Have I understood you well? Does it follow
17 from what you have said that these 74 people,
18 inhabitants of Krizancevo Selo and Buhine Kuce, the 30,
19 that they were not killed outside combat?
20 A. No, those were mostly HVO soldiers, and
21 I think that you are familiar with the report of
22 UNPROFOR. UNPROFOR was there, who filmed it. These
23 are well known facts, established facts, that they were
24 HVO soldiers. Maybe in some cases a couple of
25 civilians, I am not sure, I do not know.
1 Q. Did you establish during your research what
2 percentage of the territory since the Washington treaty
3 is controlled by the BiH army and which percentage of
4 the Vitez Municipality by the HVO?
5 A. Yes, HVO controls 25 per cent and the BiH army
6 75 per cent, but half of the Vitez Municipality of
7 1,599 square kilometres is not inhabited. These are
8 woods and hills. The parts under HVO control are all
9 the communications, the town centres, with the
10 exception of 5.3 square kilometres within Vitez
11 itself. All the work enterprises, the educational
12 institutions et cetera are within the control of the
14 Q. Would you agree with me if I were to say that
15 the HVO controlled the settlements along communication
16 lines and the vital economic establishments?
17 A. Are you referring to April 16th.
18 Q. No, during the Muslim/Croat war. Would you
19 agree with that definition?
20 A. Yes, on 25th February 1994, the Washington
21 treaty came into force and the armies were separated
22 and it was then that they gained control of
23 25 per cent, with the coming into force of the truce.
24 Q. You may not have understood me. Those
25 25 per cent under HVO control, after the signing of the
1 truce; can it be defined as covering settlements along
2 major communications and the key economic facilities?
3 A. Yes, more or less.
4 Q. During your research, did you establish how
5 many Muslim refugees came to the Vitez Municipality
6 from eastern Bosnia and how many from Jajce before the
7 Croatian-Muslim conflict?
8 A. This is a question I have studied and, since
9 we left out that part of the statistics, the total
10 number of Bosniak refugees at the end of 1995 within
11 Vitez under BiH army control amounts to 331, I think.
12 I should have to look it up. So it is a very small
13 number of refugees. There were not many Bosniak
14 refugees from other areas within the territory of Vitez
16 Q. You said -- you gave us the figure for 1995,
17 but do you have the figure for 1993? There were
18 refugees coming in in 1992. I am asking you, before
19 the Muslim-Croat war, how many refugees were there in
20 Vitez Municipality from Jajce and eastern Bosnia?
21 A. This is a very interesting question from a
22 slightly different angle. I have not established the
23 exact number, though I did study it from a different
24 standpoint. A large number of the refugees came from
25 western parts of Bosnia, they reached Travnik and they
1 went on to look for shelter. Throughout that time, the
2 HVO government of Vitez did its best to prevent a large
3 number of Bosniaks from staying in Vitez Municipality.
4 At the time, I was not aware of the reasons, though
5 they frequently mentioned the need not to upset the
6 ethnic mix. Therefore at the beginning of 1993, Vitez
7 Municipality, as compared to Zenica or Travnik, there
8 was a very small percentage of Bosniak refugees.
9 Anyway, you see how many there were at the end of the
10 war, 300 and something.
11 Q. Have I understood you well; you are not aware
12 of the number of refugees in 1993?
13 A. I do not know, but if there were many of
14 them, they would have still been there at the end of
15 1995. There would have been more than 300 of them.
16 Q. In the course of your research, did you
17 analyse the situation in the surrounding
18 municipalities, and did those events affect the
19 demographic situation in Vitez? Do you know how many
20 Croats came from Zenica, Travnik, Novi Travnik and
21 Busovaca to the Vitez Municipality?
22 A. This is a case study, so that you are dealing
23 with a legal problem which has to be studied.
24 Therefore no further elaborations were made regarding
25 other municipalities, but the statistical data shows
1 that the number of Croats in Vitez Municipality
2 increased by about 2,500 at the end of 1995, as
3 compared to the 1991 census, so those Croats must have
4 come from somewhere, and mostly they came from Travnik
5 and a certain number, I do not know the exact number,
6 from Zenica. Whether there were a few coming from
7 Vares or some other places like Fojnica, but it is a
8 fact that there were 2,500 of them more than before.
9 Q. Do you not think it was important to
10 investigate this? Let me ask you a question. Do you
11 know how many autochthonous Croats left Vitez
12 Municipality in spite of HVO control? Do you have
13 those figures?
14 A. The number could only be quite negligible for
15 this study, because at the end of 1992, and in the
16 course of 1992 even, there were some small -- a small
17 degree of mobility because in that situation of
18 uncertainty, both Bosniaks and Croats were leaving,
19 going to Croatia, but many of them came back, so that
20 this percentage, how many there were, would not
21 substantively change the demographic situation in Vitez
23 Q. But did you use any precise methods to
24 establish how many Croats had left Vitez?
25 A. When you are doing demographic changes, you
1 have to bear in mind that these are living people. You
2 may establish the population structure one day and
3 already the next day it will be somewhat changed, so it
4 is not possible to approach the problem in that way.
5 You have the birth rate, the death rate, the natural
6 increment, the moving out of people for reasons of
7 employment, and for other reasons, for educational
8 purposes et cetera. So it is not possible to establish
9 each individual case.
10 Q. Would you agree with me, if I adduce from
11 what you have said that you needed to establish how
12 many members of a particular ethnic group moved, but
13 you did not establish how many Croats came from Zenica,
14 how many Croats who had lived in Vitez had left?
15 A. The fact that is relevant is the number of
16 Croats in Vitez Municipality today as compared to the
17 1991 census.
18 Q. So you did not come across the figure that
19 500 military conscripts of the HVO had left Vitez?
20 These are young people.
21 A. Yes, I do not know whether you investigated
22 how many fighters were killed during the combat
23 operations and who is responsible for it.
24 Q. 2,100 in the Municipality of Vitez, 700, in
25 the whole enclave, 2,100 Croats were killed.
1 A. Of course, in my paper I mention the figure
2 of 700.
3 Q. Do you know the 20,000 Croats from Travnik
4 before the April conflict came to the Vitez
5 Municipality; they were expelled from Travnik?
6 A. As far as I am aware, the largest number of
7 Croats from Travnik, though I did not study this very
8 seriously, went across the lines held by the Chetniks,
9 across Mount Vlasik, and a part of the Croats came to
10 Vitez Municipality, that is in the area where there
11 were combat operations.
12 Q. Do you know that 5,000 Croats from Zenica
13 abandoned Zenica and came to Vitez?
14 A. I am not aware of these figures, so I would
15 not like to answer questions that I have not studied in
16 my paper and for which I do not have reliable data.
17 Q. I do not know what you have studied and that
18 is why I am asking you. Do you know that all the
19 Croats of Fojnica left?
20 A. I know -- I have said that I studied, that
21 I did a case study devoted to Vitez Municipality and my
22 theme does not involve studying the surroundings.
23 Q. But I am talking about the people of Fojnica
24 who came to Vitez Municipality?
25 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, let me object
1 because the questions and answers are merging into
2 one. I think there should be some pause to allow the
3 translation from Mr. Nobilo and some time for
4 Mr. Kajmovic to answer and let his answer be translated
5 before the next question is asked.
6 JUDGE JORDA: I think this is an objection to
7 which everybody would agree.
8 MR. NOBILO: I will attempt -- I just got
9 carried away a little bit. Sorry.
10 Mr. Kajmovic, you are a scholar, so let me
11 just try to confirm something with you. What does it
12 seem to you when you use Bosnian Croat and Bosnian
13 Serb? Is that a scientific term or is this a political
14 term? Is this a new nation?
15 A. The correct denomination for Croats would be
16 the Bosnian Croat, because it is the Croats who live in
17 Bosnia, in the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina and not in
18 the state of Croatia.
19 Q. Is that a scientific name of a nation?
20 A. The correct name is Croats, only Croats, but
21 I stress the prefix Bosnian, so that we would
22 distinguish between the Croats who live in Croatia and
23 those who live in Bosnia-Herzegovina, so we know about
24 which Croats we were talking.
25 Q. Did any Croats from Croatia move to Bosnia?
1 A. No, not that I know of.
2 Q. Do you use the term Serbian Bosniaks for
3 people from Sandzak?
4 A. I was not dealing in that issue at all.
5 Q. But have you ever heard it, Serbian Bosniak?
6 A. Not in real life.
7 Q. Would you not agree that this is a little bit
9 A. No, why?
10 Q. Very well. We go back to 1995, when you were
11 trying to determine how many people of which ethnic
12 group lived, resided in which area of the
13 Municipality. Let us take the Bosniaks for instance.
14 Was this a scientific method?
15 A. Yes, the Civilian Defence Headquarters did
16 hire people to canvass the neighbourhoods and so they
17 did it for their own purposes.
18 Q. What method did you use when determining the
19 number of Bosniaks in the territory under the HVO
21 A. Here I used the method of interviews, so the
22 interviews with people who knew their neighbours in
23 Rijeka, because we took Rijeka, that is part of the
24 Vranska local commune, part of it is in Rijeka, part of
25 it is in Vitez too, so I knew Bosniaks there who knew
1 their neighbours very well and so I interviewed people
2 from the Vitez too, the urban part of the area, who had
3 left there but knew exactly who stayed behind. So that
4 we had those two cases, the 80 Bosniaks in the urban
5 part of Vitez, and part in Rijeka, so that was a small
6 area which was specifically researched.
7 Q. Was this a scientific method?
8 A. No, this is accurate, it is 80 people who
9 were registered there.
10 Q. Did you look at other settlements, whether
11 there were Bosniaks there?
12 A. I did not. By talking to people who were
13 going to these areas, who went to check on their own
14 houses, who went to the cemeteries, and so we
15 identified exactly how many Bosniaks were there.
16 Q. How scientifically reliable is this that you
17 have just described?
18 A. The most precise would be if the census
19 bureau of Bosnia would be able to go into the field and
20 identify these 80 persons. It is not practicable right
21 now, but these data are quite relevant.
22 Q. In your examination-in-chief, you explained
23 that people who went to the cemeteries looked at how
24 many houses were still standing and that is how you
25 proceeded. What was the UNPROFOR's role in this?
1 A. In the first period after the cessation of
2 hostilities, there was an agreement with UNPROFOR to
3 provide escort and safety and later this was done
4 between the HVO police and the Army of BiH and later
5 people had more freedom of movement in this area.
6 Q. Am I right in saying that in most cases,
7 people were going in buses in an organised way to the
9 A. Yes, for the most part, but there were some
10 individual cases as well, people who went there by
12 Q. Did I understand correctly that when these
13 people went on buses, they were counting Croatian
15 A. When they first went there, they were not in
16 a position to. Later, yes, but they were not counting
17 Croatian houses, they were counting their own houses,
18 how many were destroyed et cetera and their neighbours;
19 they were not interested in the Croatian houses.
20 Q. But you said Croatian house times 3.7?
21 A. No, Bosniak houses. We know that about --
22 there were about 100, 40 were destroyed, 60 were moved
23 in by other people, so I took the average number of
24 family members for 89/90/91. The average number of
25 members of family in the Vitez Municipality per family
1 was 3.75, so if 60 houses were vacated and other people
2 moved in, I would take that number 60 and multiply it
3 by 3.75 and this is how I would come to the number of
4 the Croats who have now moved and were residing in
5 Donje Veceriska. I may be off by a certain percentage
6 point, but not much.
7 Q. One more question. What scientific method
8 did you use to determine why the Serbs left? How did
9 you determine that?
10 A. The Serbs are a separate case. Before the
11 conflict, for the most part, most of them left
12 voluntarily. There were 377 in the Vitez area, so a
13 relatively small number in the municipality. In
14 Tolovici, they had about 150 inhabitants. It was half
15 Bosniak, half Serbian settlement. The rest of the
16 Serbs were distributed in the urban area and some in
17 Kruscica and some in Rijeka. I know this because
18 I communicated with the Serbs at that time, and this is
19 what they were saying, that Radovan Karadzic requested
20 they leave this area, and they found buses and in an
21 organised way they moved out before the conflict, for
22 the most part. A small percentage stayed.
23 Q. Am I correct in saying here that this fact
24 was determined by your previous knowledge and not based
25 on your scientific research?
1 A. The knowledge that you possess, you cannot
2 absolutely disregard and again come to it later. These
3 are the facts that will be confirmed by all your
4 collaborators, that is in respect of the Serbs. So all
5 Croats will confirm this, it is not just the Bosniaks.
6 Q. But would it not have been fair to have asked
7 the Serbs about this?
8 A. There is reasoning for that too, but then
9 maybe you should ask Karadzic who ordered this.
10 Q. In one of the tables, and I am talking to 5
11 to 6 percentage point deviation, could that be up and
13 A. I say 5 to 6. I think it could go down by
14 that amount, but maybe a little bit upward as well, but
15 for the most part, it would be minus, that is down.
16 Q. In one of the tables, you showed the
17 population chart in the areas under the HVO control in
18 1995, and you compared it to 1991. Certain local
19 communes were split, and divided in certain ways.
20 I would like to know whether you had data from 1991,
21 how many Croats and how many Bosniaks lived in this
22 segment of the area that is now under different
24 A. Yes, there was an Official Gazette, a local
25 municipal Official Gazette. There are 34 inhabited
1 places and in 1991, there was a census in these
2 inhabited places. It was accurately determined how
3 many inhabited places belonged in certain local
4 communes, so in Lupac, for instance, you had
5 98 per cent of Bosniaks living. Let us take Jardol.
6 Grbavica is part of that local commune, with some 700
7 Bosniaks, and I would have to look how many Croats
8 there are there, so there are accurate data, so there
9 is nothing controvertible there. We know exactly how
10 many inhabitants of each ethnic group there is in which
11 local commune, so in Jardol, in Grbavica et cetera.
12 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you, as a scholar, as
13 a scientist, the data that you put forward here which
14 I cannot confirm right now that the Croats were in the
15 majority of 93.8 per cent in the areas controlled by
16 the HVO, and the Bosniaks 95.8, almost 96 per cent in
17 the majority in the areas under BH control, so was
18 it -- can you tell me, is the propaganda stronger or
19 the force?
20 A. Do not tie it into either, please. There are
21 accurate data here. In the area controlled by the
22 BiH army, you can take the statistical data and
23 compare. In Lupac, 400 people, only Bosniaks -- for
24 instance Sadovaca, exclusively Bosniaks, that is the
25 area controlled by the BiH army. Take the local commune
1 of Vrhovine, exclusively Bosniak. Preocica, I think
2 there were only 11 Croats there and maybe about the
3 same number of Serbs. The local commune of Prnjavor,
4 exclusively -- Vrhovine, exclusively Bosniaks. This
5 can be gleaned through other tables as well, so there
6 was -- the areas under the BiH army control were much
7 less mixed, but the ones that are now under HVO control
8 was much more mixed. It was flat, it was industrially
9 more developed et cetera.
10 Q. Okay. Do you agree that the territory under
11 the BiH army control was ethnically cleansed to a higher
12 degree by three percentage points than the one under
13 HVO control?
14 A. Yes, but it does not reflect the fact that
15 maybe there was more of an ethnic cleansing there. It
16 does not. 1,200 people were moved from that area and
17 from your area 6,000 people were moved, so I do not
18 know if that data shows you -- judge for yourself.
19 What is more, 6,500 versus 1,200?
20 Q. Those are absolute numbers.
21 A. Had it been for the same methods used,
22 unfortunately they were not the same methods used.
23 Q. Okay, what I am interested in now is whether
24 you know what methods were used during the ethnic
25 cleansing of Bosniaks, as you call them; that is, did
1 you statistically research how many Bosniaks left for
2 criminal activities, how many exchanged, how many due
3 to direct forcing out of houses? Did you statistically
4 research that?
5 A. Yes, I did, but for God's sake, what kind of
6 crime can you talk about when they could not -- they
7 did not dare open up the doors? If they are in the
8 basement in the Workers' University and if the HVO is
9 taking them out to dig trenches and they do not know if
10 they are coming back --
11 Q. I am sorry, you did not understand me.
12 A. Yes, I did understand you.
13 Q. I am sorry, what I meant was not that they
14 engaged in the acts of crime; whether because their
15 houses were looted and there was force used against
17 A. That is absurd. If the person may only think
18 how to stay alive, you cannot speak of pillage and rape
19 and things like that. People are trying to stay
20 alive. None of these people whom I interviewed could
21 think in his dream in this way. It has nothing to do
22 with the real situation.
23 Q. My question was whether you tried to identify
24 the actual acts that forced people to leave, the kinds
25 of acts and the people who committed them?
1 A. Yes, that is as if I asked you whether you
2 were in Hawaii on vacation. That is what you asked me,
3 more or less. I do not understand this.
4 JUDGE JORDA: Let us try to keep things calm
5 here, not express too many opinions, too many
6 judgements, and be attentive to the interpreters who are
7 also getting tired. Thank you.
8 MR. NOBILO: Thank you. I believe we have a
9 misunderstanding here. My question was simply whether
10 you tried to establish in these interviews, or through
11 any statistical method, how many people fled because of
12 certain acts of violence and whether these acts of
13 violence have been identified and enumerated?
14 A. I identified the acts of violence perpetrated
15 by the HVO against them. I know the forms in which
16 they were forced to leave.
17 Q. This is the meaning of my question. How many
18 people fled because the military attacked? How many
19 people fled because some member of the HVO or some
20 groups of the HVO broke into the house, pillaged and
21 kicked them out? In that sense, do you have the data?
22 A. I have all the data.
23 Q. Please go ahead and present it to us.
24 A. About 1,500 people from the urban area were
25 expelled by the HVO, by different forms of pressure.
1 Expulsion from the apartments, threats, things like
2 that. From Ahmici, 508 people. On the morning of
3 16th April, 117 people were killed in Ahmici and
4 25th May local commune. Some of them were detained in
5 the primary school in Dubravica and some managed to
6 flee to so-called Upper Ahmici and from there to cross
7 over to Vrhovine, which was under BiH army control. The
8 local commune of Gacice, one part of civilians on
9 20th April 1993 managed to flee across Zabrde to
10 Novi Travnik and the rest of the population was
11 collected by the HVO and brought in front of the
12 department store in Vitez and they told them, "Let the
13 BiH army shoot at you now", and then they were taken in
14 the direction of Travnik and Zenica.
15 Q. They did not take them back to Gacice?
16 A. They only took them back for two or three
18 Q. Please proceed.
19 A. And today, there are no Bosniaks in Gacice,
20 there are none.
21 Q. How many people left Gacice in this manner?
22 A. All 320 of however many live there.
23 Q. So some left with the military and others --
24 A. No, only 30 or 40 managed to flee across the
25 woods. No military there.
1 Q. Very well, proceed please.
2 A. I already explained Ahmici and 25th May was
3 the adjoining local commune next to Ahmici. 29 people
4 were killed there on the morning during the attack of
5 the HVO. The rest of the population was either in the
6 camp in Dubravica or later released, together with the
7 people who fled through Gornji Ahmici to Vrhovine. The
8 Dubravica local commune, that is the lower part of it
9 which is near the railroad station, from that local
10 commune the population was collected and through the
11 assistance of UNPROFOR was evacuated.
12 In Stari Vitez local commune, the people were
13 able to defend themselves, about 1,100 of them and they
14 were able to stay there. From the part of Rijeka which
15 is also part of the Vranska local commune, another
16 urban area of the town, they were successively driven
17 out and very few are left now. Then there is the
18 Veceriska local commune; they were expelled during the
19 attack of the HVO on 16th April, and then there is
20 Grbavica, which after it fell was cleansed later. So
21 these are the 4,611 Bosniaks.
22 Q. Very well. One more question. In your
23 research, have you come across a document or any
24 witness who would state or show that General Blaskic
25 ordered the expulsion of certain people, and I here
1 mean Muslims.
2 A. No, I had no insight into such documents
3 which would expressly confirm that this was an order by
4 Mr. Blaskic. I have no such proof.
5 MR. NOBILO: Mr. Kajmovic, we are done.
6 Mr. President, this completes our cross-examination.
7 Mr. Kajmovic, good luck with your thesis.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon?
9 MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions,
10 Mr. President.
11 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Riad?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Kajmovic, I would appreciate
14 your giving us your unequivocal assessment of some of
15 the issues raised here. You spoke of ethnic cleansing
16 and you mentioned the means which were used in ethnic
17 cleansing. You spoke of breaking into houses as a
18 means of pressure to kick people out, of abuses,
19 different abuse of people, of crossing a frontier under
20 army control, and then you mentioned genocide in
21 Ahmici. Do you consider that genocide was used as one
22 of the means of ethnic cleansing in Vitez?
23 A. In my thesis, I touch on the issue of the
24 genocide in Ahmici. I did research this issue and
25 I identified the exact number of victims there, and
1 I tried to ascertain the reasons why this was done and
2 why in Ahmici, and apart from the general motives,
3 there were some local or practical reasons as well.
4 One of the practical reasons for this genocide was that
5 this local commune, where there were 508 Bosniaks, was
6 on the road Vitez-Busovaca. It was a strategically
7 important point and only at this point was there any
8 danger that it could be cut off, and that the HVO may
9 not be able to use it for military purposes.
10 So this was one of the motives, to take
11 control of this road communications, and this would be
12 the purely military aspect of it. But there is another
13 aspect why the genocide was committed there. One was
14 the motivation which was revenge, and on 18th October
15 1992, when the HVO attacked Novi Travnik, on the orders
16 of the commander Hadzihasanovic of the III Corps, a
17 roadblock or barricade was put up in Ahmici. It was
18 attacked by the HVO and it was removed within about one
19 hour of gunfire, and one young man from Ahmici died, so
20 this barricade briefly slowed down the HVO troops'
21 movement from Busovaca, Kiseljak and Fojnica who were
22 going to Novi Travnik to take control of it and to link
23 up to the forces from Gornji Vakuf. General Blaskic
24 and some other HVO structures said publicly that they
25 would avenge themselves on Ahmici for this barricade,
1 so that when --
2 Q. Who said that? Who said there will be a
3 revenge of Ahmici?
4 A. Dario Kordic said this on television, that he
5 would avenge himself on the population of Ahmici for
6 the barricades that they put up on 19th October 1992.
7 Q. Did you see that yourself? Did you see that
8 on television yourself? General Blaskic was with him
9 at that time?
10 A. I cannot say whether he was there or not,
11 I am not sure, but I am certain of the statement, that
12 it was delivered in the form of a threat. But let me
13 just finish my comment. So there was the aspect of
14 revenge for that barricade which had been put up there,
15 and another reason can be gleaned from the name of that
16 operation, 48 Hours of Ashes. So from a military point
17 of view, it should have been completed within 48 hours,
18 and the effect of such a swift action psychologically
19 speaking, if you do something, such a drastic act,
20 people are brought in a state of shock and indeed all
21 Bosniaks were in a state of shock when they learned of
23 So it is the psychological factor, and it was
24 to achieve a certain goal psychologically that should
25 have helped the HVO general goals. So this is what
1 I know and as far as the causes and orders, they
2 probably came from higher levels and probably not from
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. But this was on a local level, the
4 motivation to commit this genocide precisely in Ahmici
5 and for these specific reasons.
6 Q. You mentioned that the operation was called
7 48 Hours of Ashes, the name of the operation.
8 A. 48 Hours of Ashes.
9 Q. Was this the military denomination of this
10 action, or was it just the popular word?
11 A. According to some information that is perhaps
12 still not sufficiently well grounded, I still do not
13 have reliable data on the name of that operation, but
14 according to some information that I obtained,
15 I learned that this operation was called in that way;
16 namely some of our officers in contact with UNPROFOR
17 members saw in their notebook an indication of this HVO
18 operation as 48 Hours of Ashes. Then there was also a
19 widespread conviction among the people that that was
20 how it was named, and there is another reason which
21 again is not sufficiently well-founded; on the mosque
22 of Ahmic Hazim, because he built this mosque which was
23 destroyed, the HVO fighters wrote graffiti which said,
24 "48 Hours of Ashes Dusko will be working as of the
25 16th." Of course, photographers took pictures of
1 this, these graffiti and I saw in the media some other
2 photographs as well where probably the HVO
3 administration had had this deleted, so I do not have
4 sufficient evidence to claim that that was indeed the
5 name of the operation. But some knowledge that I have
6 referred to does exist.
7 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that there was a
8 sudden and massive departure of Bosnian Croats on the
9 eve of the attack, it was I think on 15th and
10 16th April, and you indicated by that that it was a
11 co-ordinated move and a massive move. Would you
12 conclude from that, or did you conclude from that that
13 this sudden move was due to instructions given for a
14 sudden departure, or could it have been the result of
15 being scared that the Bosnian Croats were so scared
16 that they had to leave the area? What was your
17 assessment? Were they under a threat by the Muslims,
18 in other words?
19 A. I have to correct you. I did not say that
20 they went en masse. I am referring to the exact figure
21 of 940-something Croats, so a small percentage of those
22 Croats from certain areas, a smaller proportion of them
23 left their homes that night and crossed over to areas
24 that were under firmer control of the HVO. These were
25 small numbers, but on the first day of the conflict, on
1 the 16th in the morning, there were larger numbers of
3 When I say "somewhat larger", I am thinking
4 of those 400 out of the 940 who moved from the local
5 commune of Poculica to an area which was more firmly
6 controlled by the HVO, because the HVO applied a simple
7 principle: in areas which it did not control, it
8 publicly, through the media, called on the Croats to
9 cross over into the territory under their control, so
10 if we can consider these 400 Croats to be an exodus en
11 masse, they were living in Poculica and the first
12 morning when the conflict started they withdrew to the
13 area under HVO control, so about 840 Croats as a whole
14 were displaced within the Municipality of Vitez.
15 Q. So you do not think that this coincided with
16 the attack?
17 A. These are movements by Croats as a
18 consequence of the HVO attack on the Bosniaks and as a
19 consequence of the fact that the HVO did not manage to
20 fully gain control of the whole area, so the HVO did
21 not control the Poculica local commune and that is why
22 the Croats moved out, so, from the Bosniak side,
23 absolutely there was no pressure on the Bosnian Croats
24 for them to vacate a certain territory, with, of
25 course, exceptions -- individual cases which may always
2 Q. My last question is: you mentioned, and
3 I hope I understood you rightly, that in the urban
4 areas of Vitez, people who could not get out were
5 arrested and detained. First I would like to know,
6 these people were civilians or were fighters? Then; by
7 whom were they detained and arrested?
8 A. In the urban part of Vitez, in the town
9 itself, which was under HVO control -- there were two
10 parts of Vitez, the old part and the new part of the
11 town, the old part most often being referred to as
12 Stari Vitez. In the new part, there were between 1,500
13 and 1,600 Bosniaks and they could not move out anywhere
14 from there, except through exchanges or through
15 expulsions across the lines. Therefore this part needs
16 to be dealt with separately. In Stari Vitez, there
17 were about 1,100 Bosniaks and there were still some 40
18 Croats living there and this was a single ethnic
19 population of one ethnicity and this part was also
20 surrounded and they too could not move for eleven and
21 a half months that the war went on, because the HVO had
22 them encircled, but there were combat operations there
23 in Stari Vitez.
24 Q. There were combat, or no combat operations?
25 A. When talking about Stari Vitez --
1 Q. The last word you mentioned. You said there
2 were no combat operations in Stari Vitez?
3 A. There were.
4 Q. So military people were fighting?
5 A. Yes, there were. No I think we need a map.
6 Can I use the map to explain this? The map of the
7 separation of military forces?
8 MR. HARMON: Mr. Dubuisson, that would be in
9 the second package.
10 A. Military separation so as to show --
11 JUDGE JORDA: That is what, 192?
12 THE REGISTRAR: No, 195, or even 196.
13 A. Can we use this one? Can I have this one?
14 When mentioning Stari Vitez, I am referring to this
15 part, this area here, which is the area of about 0.3
16 kilometres, square kilometres, 0.3 square kilometres,
17 and there were about 1,100 inhabitants, mostly
18 Bosniaks, living there. They too, on 16th April in the
19 morning at 4.30, they were attacked by the HVO, but the
20 HVO did not manage to capture it, so that this area was
21 surrounded by HVO territory and HVO front-lines, and
22 this area remained in a situation of combat until
23 25th February 1994. So there were 1,100 Bosniaks who
24 were still living there.
25 However there are 1,600 of them down here,
1 this part of the town itself. They were not in a
2 classical encirclement of the HVO, but were under the
3 HVO administration. The HVO could arrest, evict and so
4 on, and they actually did. The HVO did not imprison
5 anyone from Stari Vitez; why? Because they could not
6 enter it, but from this other part of the town, these
7 were civilians, there was no army there, and people
8 from 18 onwards were detained and taken to camps, the
9 Workers' University, the SDK, the veterinary station,
10 Dubravica and so on, from this other part of the town
11 which you cannot see on the map, but it is here, the
12 new part of the town.
13 JUDGE RIAD: So they were civilians?
14 A. Yes, civilians.
15 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.
16 JUDGE JORDA: I do not have any questions as
17 questions themselves, but I have a comment. What
18 disturbs me insofar as your -- let me turn to the
19 Prosecutor. Insofar as your testimony is both the
20 product of scientific research, statistical research
21 and also one that one might call a political testimony,
22 because you have a thesis which corresponds to what you
23 believe and to your commitments in the SDA and -- as a
24 judge, I am somewhat disturbed that you have this
25 thesis which is yours, which is being used by the
1 Prosecution, but at the same time you are presenting
2 your work as a scientific work carried out by an
3 academic at a high level, and you have said this both
4 for the Prosecution and the Defence.
5 I say this to you, because we are entitled to
6 ask for the work to be produced. Of course we are
7 wondering whether this would not disturb you, because
8 you have not yet defended your thesis. We are thinking
9 about a decision which we will not take tonight.
10 I would like to know whether this would disturb you,
11 whether it would cause any problems for you, that is to
12 give us the work in the state that it is right now. As
13 I say, my concern is that it is a scientific work, but
14 you are not absolutely an expert such as the
15 Prosecution witnesses that have been called in,
16 university professors who are not involved in the
18 You have a thesis, it is your right, it is
19 not a criticism that I am making. My question is -- we
20 will not take a decision this evening. The judges will
21 discuss it, but would that be a problem for you in
22 respect of your university, in respect of the
23 completion of your work, would it be problematic for
24 you for that work to be given to the Tribunal as it
25 stands now, and that is both to the Defence and the
1 Prosecution, the Defence that might want to call you
2 back or might want to file an additional brief or an
3 additional reply. You see, that is the basis for my
4 concern. It is not as much the statistics, but rather
5 statistics that are being used to support a thesis.
6 This is the concern that I have, and we would like to
7 have your comments about this.
8 A. There are no problems in that regard. It is
9 possible to communicate this paper, there is no dispute
10 over that, but you must know that from the standpoint
11 of science, a problem has to be studied using sources,
12 and a certain allegation has to be based in certain
13 sources. Therefore to absolutely exclude any political
14 considerations is impossible, because it is not a
15 Master's thesis at a political science faculty and not
16 at the mathematics department. So one may have the
17 impression that politics is playing a part, but in
18 defending certain positions in the paper, I have to
19 refer to certain sources, but certainly not to
20 political convictions.
21 JUDGE JORDA: What concerns me -- you see
22 I did hear your answer, but what concerns me are the
23 rights of the Defence and the respect for an inter
24 parte proceeding. Not only was this information not
25 given to the Defence in the proper time, but your
1 explanations were long, I did not interrupt you -- the
2 cross-examination was not always limited to the
3 examination-in-chief, but I did not interrupt, because
4 I think for the Defence the situation was a bit
5 difficult, because in the end it -- your answers were
6 both political and statistical.
7 Therefore if you were being asked political
8 questions, you could answer with mathematics and if you
9 were being asked about statistics for which it did not
10 have effects, you defended yourself with your
11 convictions. That is your political thesis. I have
12 simply noted down: we will not take a decision tonight,
13 the judges will reflect about it, but I have noted that
14 partially or fully, you would not find yourself in any
15 difficulties vis-à-vis your university to give the
16 information to the Tribunal, which is entitled to in
17 fact demand it. This would help the future of the
18 proceedings as we go forward.
19 Do you have any comments you would like to
20 make about this, Mr. Harmon?
21 MR. HARMON: No, Mr. President, I do not.
22 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President?
23 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Nobilo?
24 MR. NOBILO: I would like at the end to draw
25 attention to a legal practice, a norm as it is
1 regulated in the country I come from. Actually in the
2 legal system that I am working in, the expert witness
3 is always and exclusively an independent person. His
4 exemption may be required if he has personal links with
5 the subject in dispute. I know that the Statute of the
6 Tribunal has not regulated these matters fully, but
7 I think that one might make an objection and say that
8 this witness is most directly involved with the case in
9 dispute, because he was at the head of the party that
10 formed the army in Vitez that was opposed to the HVO.
11 He was one of the leaders of the people fighting the
12 HVO, and this disqualifies him as an objective expert
13 witness. So will you please bear this in mind?
14 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we did not conceal
15 that fact when we offered Mr. Kajmovic to your Honours
16 and his statistical report and analysis. That issue,
17 of whether Mr. Kajmovic had an active part in the civic
18 and political affairs of his community was brought out
19 on direct examination. There was no effort to conceal
20 that. I would submit, Mr. President, there are not a
21 lot of people who have conducted a study on the
22 demographic changes in the Vitez Municipality, given
23 the tremendously difficult circumstances, one can
24 imagine conducting such a study would entail.
25 We have endeavoured to bring to your Honours'
1 attention a report from a source who was formerly the
2 President of the SDA, but your Honours can judge his
3 credibility in assessing his testimony and the accuracy
4 of the statistical data he has presented to you,
5 particularly in light of the previous testimony that
6 your Honours have heard about what happened in the
7 villages about which he has testified and provided you
8 with statistical data.
9 For example, you have heard, Mr. President,
10 from independent sources, from sources such as UNPROFOR
11 and ECMM, that there are no people left, no Muslims
12 left, in the village of Ahmici. That is something that
13 has been corroborated by these statistics. I would ask
14 you, Mr. President, when you bear in mind the source of
15 this report, Mr. Kajmovic and his past political
16 interests, that you also bear in mind the other
17 testimonies that you have heard in this case in respect
18 of what happened in various villages, what happened in
19 terms of the meanings and methods that have been
20 described by this witness through the testimonies of
21 other witnesses. That is all I am saying,
22 Mr. President.
23 I do not think that I take issue with
24 Mr. Nobilo's comment to disqualify Mr. Kajmovic. I would
25 submit that Mr. Kajmovic is a witness who bears
1 listening to and it is up to your Honours as
2 professional judges to weigh his interest and his
3 information that he has provided to you in the context
4 of this trial.
5 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I would put things back
6 into proper proportions. I must say that there was no
7 lack of fairness on the part of the Prosecutor, because
8 he stated in the beginning of the testimony, during the
9 summary before the witness came in, that the witness
10 had a significant political commitment with the Muslim
11 community. There were no problems on that. If in
12 absolute terms Mr. Nobilo's comment is valid, for today,
13 nothing is amiss.
14 But my second comment, which is something
15 which I have already said several times, the judges
16 must evaluate, given the context in all of these
17 situations the true reliability, as they say in my
18 system, the probative value or the weight of this or
19 that testimony. That is the work of the judges and
20 they will do that work, but the question that is for
21 the judges to be able to do their work, I would like to
22 know whether this cross-examination was able to take
23 place under the best conditions, and I would like
24 certainly to point out a few things.
25 Now that we have heard what you have to say,
1 the decision will be taken. I think we do not need to
2 have the next witness brought in. The day has been
3 long, but from now on this Trial Chamber intends, and
4 I say this for the interpreters, to begin at 2.00,
5 except for some days, when there may be lunches that
6 take longer or invitations that arrive, but ordinarily,
7 this chamber will start to sit at 2.00 and will stop at
8 6.30, with an attempt at a 20-minute break in the
9 middle. We will try to stick to that schedule which
10 will be better for the judges and I hope it will not be
11 too disturbing for the work of the interpreters.
12 Thank you very much, we will resume tomorrow
13 at 2.00.
14 (6.55 pm)
15 (Hearing adjourned until 2.00 pm the following day)