1 Wednesday, 1st July 1998
2 --- Upon commencing at 9.55 a.m.
3 JUDGE JORDA: Good morning. Would you be
4 seated, please, and have the accused brought in?
5 (The accused entered court)
6 JUDGE JORDA: I would like to say good
7 morning to everybody. I hope that everybody hears me,
8 the interpreters, good morning. All right, we can
9 begin. Mr. Kehoe, will you be conducting the
11 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President, and I will be
12 here with my colleague, Mr. van der Does. It's
13 basically a solo flight with just the two of us, so
14 that's all who will be here today. Maybe Mr. Cayley
15 will be joining us later.
16 JUDGE JORDA: You know, you got a strong
17 back. You can do it all by yourself. I'm sure you can
18 do it all by yourself. All right, go ahead.
19 MR. KEHOE: The next witness is a witness,
20 the pseudonym for this witness will we be Witness WW.
21 If I could go into either private or closed session
22 while I go into some of my preliminary remarks, some of
23 those remarks will be of an identifying nature, and if
24 we can do those in closed session. We have consulted
25 with counsel on this so I don't believe there's any
1objection in that regard.
2 JUDGE JORDA: The registrar said that we can
3 now have private session in here.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's correct. We can
5 move into a private session.
6 JUDGE JORDA: Will that be all right, private
8 MR. KEHOE: That's perfectly okay,
9 Mr. President.
10 JUDGE JORDA: Any problems with the Defence?
11 Mr. Kehoe, go ahead.
12 (Private session).
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11 (Open session)
12 MR. KEHOE: I would ask Mr. Dubuisson, and
13 with the assistance of the usher, if we could take this
14 particular exhibit with the circles on it and have that
15 put on the ELMO and handed out to counsel and Your
16 Honours, I think it would be helpful.
17 THE REGISTRAR: This will be 402.
18 MR. KEHOE:
19 Q. Now, Witness WW, you have seen this exhibit
20 402 previously; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you assisted me to make these various
23 marks on this map of the village of Svinjarevo; is that
25 A. Yes.
1Q. Now, using the map that is on the ELMO before
2 you, Exhibit 402, can you explain to the Judges what
3 happened beginning on the morning of the 18th of April,
5 A. On the 18th of April, 1993 in the morning at
6 6.30 a.m., the Croatian Defence Council attacked the
7 village of Svinjarevo. First, there was intense
8 shelling from the village of Hadrovci, this is the
9 area, and the village of Brezova Kosa, to the right of
10 the main Busovaca-Kiseljak road.
11 Q. Those are the areas that you're marking as
12 letters "A" and "B"; is that right?
13 A. Yes, these two villages here. (Indicating).
14 Q. No, the particular shelling areas, sir, the
15 areas of the shelling?
16 A. It's called Purisevo. It was shelled from
17 Hadrovci and Brezova Kosa.
18 Q. Just continue with your story, sir.
19 A. After the shelling, the HVO soldiers started
20 to go along the ridge from Hadrovci towards the village
21 of Purisevo and the hamlet of Purovo. As soon as the
22 infantry entered the village, they burned the ten
23 houses that were in that first hamlet, and then they
24 went on to the second village, Japojrevo. There, they
25 captured three civilians. We still don't know where
1they had been buried, and they had not been exchanged.
2 They were captured on the 18th as civilians.
3 Also on the 18th, I left the village of
4 Svinjarevo, I left this inhabited area next to the main
5 Busovaca-Kiseljak road. We left along this route and
6 went to the village of Mahala and we set up a front-line
7 there along this village here next to this cemetery
8 here to the left. On the 18th, we set up the line
9 here, and the Croats remained in this area. And this
10 was the situation that lasted a whole day. The
11 demarcation between the HVO and the TO, that area, the
12 no-man's land, was about 100 metres.
13 On that same day, the 18th of April, when
14 this line was set up and the purpose of that was to
15 evacuate the civilian population from this area down
16 there, I went back along the same route that we used to
17 retreat into this inhabited area. And in the early
18 evening, the civilian population remained in their
20 Q. Let me stop you there for one moment, Witness
21 WW, and if we could put this second exhibit on the
22 ELMO, Exhibit 403. Now, Witness WW, we are discussing,
23 with Exhibit 403, the evening of the 18th of April,
24 1993. Could you tell the Judges what you did during
25 that time frame with the civilians using Exhibit 403 as
2 A. On the 18th of April, 1993 in the evening
3 hours, we evacuated the civilian population from the
4 lower part of Svinjarevo. And this area Rausevac, we
5 had four Muslim houses there, and they went to this
6 inhabited area on that same day, the inhabited area of
7 Svinjarevo. In the dusk hours just before the
8 nightfall, we left with the civilians along this route
9 here, 200 civilians, and we arrived to the village of
10 Mahala. We immediately went on along this route and
11 along the ridge to the location of Medinik, and the
12 civilians went into the municipality of Visoko.
13 Q. There's an arrow at the top of the circle
14 which comes from just below that which is part of
15 Jehovac. Did some other villagers move up and meet you
16 in the Mahala and also be evacuated? Where are you
18 A. On that same day, that's the 18th of April,
19 the village of Jehovac, the inhabitants, about 40 of
20 them from this area right here, you can see it quite
21 clear, they were also evacuated on the 18th into this
22 village. And then along the same route, they left
23 together with the other inhabitants to the municipality
24 of Visoko.
25 Q. How many civilians did you evacuate on the
1evening of the 18th of April, 1993?
2 A. On the 18th of April, we evacuated around 220
4 Q. With the assistance of the usher, if we could
5 now move back to Exhibit 402, the previous exhibit.
6 Now, you noted that in the morning hours, the HVO burnt
7 the villages that are designated in letters "D" and
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that thereafter, that evening, you
11 evacuated the civilian population on the evening of the
12 18th of April?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Tell the Judges what happened after that.
15 A. After that, on the 19th of April, I went back
16 at 10.00 a.m. with two or three other men, soldiers of
17 the TO, we went back along the same route which was
18 used by the civilian population to leave the village of
19 Svinjarevo to the village of Mahala. We went back to
20 Svinjarevo, right there at the middle of this road
21 here, and we remained there until noon.
22 Then around noon, these four houses in the
23 village of Rausevac were set on fire. This is
24 predominantly a Croatian village. Around 2.00, the HVO
25 soldiers from the village of Rausovic came here to the
1main road in Svinjarevo and stole two cars. This is
2 the middle of the street. They took those cars out of
3 garages and drove them away to the main
4 Busovaca-Kiseljak route.
5 Then they burned about ten houses from this
6 garage here, where the cars were stolen, all the way
7 down to the bridge, that's where the river flows
8 through the village. And then those civilians who
9 remained, about 18 of them who did not leave on the
10 18th, because they probably thought that the conflict
11 would cease, that this was just a temporary thing, they
12 stayed in their houses here in this part and also on
13 the right bank of the river. However, the HVO soldiers
14 captured the civilians and took them to the Kiseljak
16 On the 19th, four civilians of those 19 who
17 remained in Jehovac were killed, so they were killed on
18 the 19th by HVO soldiers. The remaining civilians who
19 had been taken to the Kiseljak barracks were detained
20 there for two or three days. And then three days
21 later, they were taken back to three Muslim houses,
22 Bosniak houses, in Jehovac along the main route. And
23 Croats live there nowadays because the houses still
25 When they were returned from the Kiseljak
1barracks to Jehovac, they were all exchanged through
2 their neighbours, Croats, who drove them in their cars
3 to Visoko where they were exchanged. Only two remained
4 out of that group. They lived in a Bosniak house here,
5 the middle one of those three houses here, until July
6 1993. In the evening around 10.00 p.m., a neighbour
7 from Jehovac came and drove them away.
8 I don't know how much time passed after that,
9 but the remains of two of them were brought to Visoko
10 and were handed over and buried.
11 Q. So the burning that took place on the 19th
12 took place in the area designated on the map as "F" and
13 the area designated on the map around the letter "G";
14 is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Continue, sir.
17 A. On the 20th of April, '93, the demarcation
18 line was at the village of Mahala. And here up around
19 the cemetery, there was shelling, not so much shelling,
20 on the side of HVO and shooting, infantry shooting.
21 On the 21st, the HVO soldiers arrived from
22 Svinjarevo, and they came along these woods to the
23 lines of TO here around this village Mahala. And the
24 civilians had left that village on the 18th. This was
25 probably just a reconnaissance, and we started
1shooting, and they went back again.
2 The reconnaissance came back this way to the
3 beginning of the village of Svinjarevo, this part here,
4 up to here. About twenty houses were burned on the
5 21st in Spahinje, this little hamlet here. This was
6 burnt down as well. There were no civilians there.
7 There were seven to eight houses there.
8 But on the 23rd, there was a big action
9 prepared and the shelling continued. The HVO committed
10 this shelling from Hadrovci, Rausevac, Brezova Kosa and
11 Podastinje which is close to Kiseljak. There was heavy
12 shelling from mortar and very heavy attack. And we
13 left the lines around 2.00 in the afternoon, so we left
14 them completely, this village here and this part here
15 around the cemetery, and we drove to this part here,
16 Stojkovici, Medenik.
17 On the 23rd, after this heavy shelling, we
18 went out into this part here, and I was seriously
19 injured and five other members of TO. We were taken
20 later on to the hospital in Visoko. I don't know what
21 happened further during the following months, but I
22 only know that within one month, all of this region
23 fell, and the Croatians took over this part.
24 During the fall of this hamlet, Mahala, this
25 village Mahala where about ten families lived, was
1completely burned down. This part down here where I
2 couldn't see properly up there, because we were already
3 moved from this village up to there, I could see this
4 part here from this part here.
5 What you have evidence on the maps and on the
6 photographs from the 200 facilities here, only one
7 house remained untouched. That means that all the
8 other houses were destroyed and burned down. Only one
9 house remained where the Croats lived from all these
10 facilities there.
11 Q. Now, Witness WW, let me ask you a couple of
12 questions about this map. When this attack was taking
13 place in Svinjarevo, were other villages around
14 Svinjarevo also being attacked by the HVO?
15 A. At the same moment on the 18th of April, the
16 village Behrec and Gomionica were attacked.
17 Q. Now, you noted that there were houses burnt
18 on the 18th on the two areas circled "D" and "E"; is
19 that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You also noted on the 19th that houses were
22 burnt on the map in the areas circled "F" and "G"?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. On the 19th in the areas "F" and "G," was
25 there any TO resistance in that area?
1A. No, there was no resistance on the side of
2 TO, because on the 18th of April when the attack began,
3 we came from the lower part to this village Mahala, so
4 that we could, on the 18th in the evening, take these
5 220 civilians outside and to give them some security.
6 Because there were still some area free, about some 100
7 metres free, from HVO. If the HVO soldiers had taken
8 these 100 metres, all these civilians would have no way
9 out, and they would have to remain down here.
10 Q. Now, you also noted that on the 21st of
11 April, the areas circled on the map "I" and "H" were
12 burnt by HVO forces; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was there any Territorial Defence resistance
15 in those areas when those houses were burnt by the HVO?
16 A. No, there was no resistance. On the 21st,
17 this village, there was nobody, no civilians, no
18 members of the TO, especially this part down here that
19 already belonged -- that was part of the main road.
20 There were no members of the TO.
21 Q. On the 23rd, there are three areas circled,
22 "J," "K" and "L." Was there TO resistance in those
23 areas when they were burnt by the HVO?
24 A. No, there was no resistance because there
25 were no civilians and no members of the TO. Because
1already on the 23rd, the civilians that remained in
2 this area were already taken care of in these three
3 houses here that are on the main road,
4 Busovaca-Kiseljak, in a Bosniak house here in the
5 middle. So no civilians were moving around these
7 Q. Did you see on the 23rd smoke emanating from
8 these -- coming from these homes circled "L" and "K"?
9 A. I could see smoke from this lower part and
10 from this part here. So houses were burning and we
11 could see the smoke when we were standing on this hill
12 here, Stojkovici.
13 Q. The area that you're pointing to as
14 Stojkovici is the area that is designated "M" at the
15 top of the map; is that right?
16 A. Yes, yes, yes.
17 Q. Now, you were wounded on the 23rd, is that
18 correct, and taken to the hospital in Visoko?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How many structures would destroyed during
21 that time frame? How many structures belonging to
22 Bosnian Muslims were destroyed?
23 A. From the 23rd on or you mean all together?
24 Q. From the 18th to the 23rd, approximately,
25 during that time frame when the HVO attacked?
1A. Around 100 structures.
2 Q. Was cattle taken as well or destroyed?
3 A. Yes, they were taking away some cattle, and
4 there was a lot of cattle that burned down together
5 with the structures.
6 Q. You mentioned previously on the 19th, there
7 was the theft of several automobiles on the road back
8 towards Kiseljak; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, that's right. When the soldiers came on
10 the 19th of April, '93, and they entered half of the
11 village of Jehovac, they took -- because there were
12 some better, more luxurious cars, they took those cars
13 and these other cars that remained, they burnt down as
14 well. They didn't take them but they were burnt down
15 at the place where they were.
16 Q. Witness WW, how many civilians were killed
17 during this conflict in April of 1993?
18 A. In Svinjarevo, there were 10 civilians
19 killed. Where eight of them are, we still don't know.
20 And for these two, we know because they were exchanged
21 in Visoko.
22 Q. Were any civilians taken captive during this
23 time period?
24 A. Yes, these that were taken to Kiseljak, they
25 spent some time at the barracks in Kiseljak, and they
1were returned to this house here at the main road where
2 you see that there are three houses.
3 Q. Were any of those civilians that were taken
4 captive, were they killed during the time when they
5 were being held captive?
6 A. Yes, these two were killed that I have
7 already spoken about that were exchanged in Visoko.
8 And the eight, together with these two, ten, they were
9 exchanged. The neighbours, depending on who knew whom,
10 took them to Visoko and then they exchanged them
11 depending on certain relations or acquaintances.
12 MR. KEHOE: If we can move to the next
13 exhibit, Mr. President, Your Honours and Mr. Dubuisson,
14 which is this particular exhibit with the legend
15 attached, which will be 404 and 404A, I believe?
16 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct.
17 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, if we can ask the
18 legend be placed under seal because it does identify
19 the house belonging to Witness WW.
20 JUDGE JORDA: We have to be careful here
21 because, if I've understood correctly, the photographs
22 can be seen in the public gallery, that is, the maps.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's correct, if we
24 put them on the ELMO, then we're going to have to go
25 into closed session.
1JUDGE JORDA: Well, then we better have a
2 closed session.
3 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, it's okay. I am
4 simply going to ask the witness whether or not the
5 legend accurately depicts the locations that are
6 circled, and we need not go into the legend and we can
7 just make that part of the record. So we're not going
8 to go through the number of structures that were
10 JUDGE JORDA: We're not going to have the
11 witness mention all 85 references. There would be no
12 point in that. You can simply ask him if he can
13 identify them in the way he marked them in the Office
14 of the Prosecutor. If there's any challenge from the
15 Defence, we'll deal with that as a separate issue.
16 Let's try to simplify things.
17 Mr. Kehoe, proceed, please.
18 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President, if we
19 can just put the map on the ELMO.
20 Q. Witness WW, these are the structures that you
21 circled that had been destroyed in part or in toto
22 during the April time frame; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The legend of names before you is the list of
25 names where you described the individuals who owned
1these houses; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Other than the number 29, which is circled in
4 orange, were all these structures that were destroyed,
5 were they owned by Bosnian Muslims?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, structure 29, that was a structure that
8 was owned by a Bosnian Croat; is that right?
9 A. Yes, which still is.
10 Q. There was a structure that was owned by a
11 Bosnian Muslim that is on the map circled as 28 which
12 was also not destroyed; is that right?
13 A. Yes, that's right. There are still Croatians
14 living there.
15 Q. The family that owned structure 29, did they
16 move their relatives into that house that was not
17 destroyed, number 28?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 MR. KEHOE: Thank you very much. We can move
20 on. The last exhibit that I would like to address,
21 Mr. President, as briefly as possible is a series of
22 photographs that I mentioned during my prefatory
23 remarks which is a sampling of some of the structures
24 that were destroyed in the village of Svinjarevo during
25 this April time frame. At this point, I would ask that
1we go into a private session, because there are various
2 photographs at the various angles of Witness WW's
4 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Then we will go
5 into a private session.
6 (Private session)
13 Pages 9704 - 9718 redacted - in closed session
7 (Open session)
8 MR. NOBILO:
9 Q. While we're discussing this unit, is the name
10 of the unit at least correct?
11 A. The name of the unit is correct because all
12 the villages are taken by that. It is not true that
13 these are all soldiers from Svinjarevo. These are
14 villages that belonged from Svinjarevo to Gomionica.
15 Q. Is it true that this unit was a part of the
16 BiH army?
17 A. It couldn't be together and it couldn't be
18 tied to it, and we never left the village and went to
19 the frontlines. If we had gone to the front-line at
20 that time, then it would have been a unit of the BiH
22 Q. According to this document, were you a part
23 of the BiH army or not?
24 A. TO, we were TO, because in '92, there was no
25 fighting between the Croats and the Bosniaks, and the
1BiH army could not have acted at the municipality of
2 Kiseljak at that time.
3 Q. Then why does the commander of BiH army
4 appoint you if you were not part of the BiH army?
5 A. He appointed me only when I left the police,
6 '93, '92 in August. It was not BiH army but TO, we
7 could say that, in the village.
8 Q. How is it that the commander of a company of
9 the BiH army appoints you as the commander if you are
10 not a part of the BiH army?
11 A. At that time, there was no BiH army. Maybe
12 sometime in '93, there was a BiH army formed. At this
13 area of Kiseljak, there was no BiH army.
14 Q. But you were the BiH army?
15 A. No, we were not because we didn't fight.
16 Q. But according to this document, you were BiH
18 A. Maybe according to you.
19 Q. Well, these soldiers, the Territorial
20 Defence, whatever you want to call them, did they live
21 in their houses in the village?
22 A. Yes, until the fighting started on the 18th.
23 Q. Did they eat in their houses?
24 A. Until the fighting of the 18th, yes, of
25 course, they lived with their families. Each of them
1lived in his or her house.
2 Q. The weapons and the ammunition that you had,
3 did you keep them in your homes?
4 A. No, we knew exactly how many weapons we had
5 and where we had these weapons and where the guards
6 were. Nobody kept the weapons in the house.
7 Q. Did you patrol the village?
8 A. Yes, normally, because together in '92, we
9 did the same thing with the Croats together from
11 Q. Did you dig trenches and build bunkers above
12 the village?
13 A. No, there were maybe a few places, but we
14 were digging them together in '92. Croats and Bosniaks
15 were digging the lines towards Visoko. When Visoko
16 started fighting with Serbs, we were digging together
17 until '92, until the division occurred. When the
18 Croats separated, they didn't want to continue with
19 us. They separated to their villages and we went to
20 ours, and that was what the situation was like from '92
21 to '93.
22 Q. What about bunkers?
23 JUDGE JORDA: Witness WW, if you don't mind,
24 when you answer the questions, would you look at the
25 Judges, please? Thank you.
1THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 MR. NOBILO:
3 Q. Were there any bunkers further up from the
5 A. No, there were no bunkers.
6 Q. The area of the responsibility of the unit
7 under your command, was it Medjumostine, Svinjarevo,
8 Purisevici (phoen), Mahavici (phoen)?
9 A. Normally. That was that zone that existed,
10 but we didn't really have lines. We weren't dug in.
11 Q. Was that your area of responsibility?
12 A. No, that was not a zone. This was only where
13 the Bosniaks were. It was normal that in the evening
14 we had patrols, the same as the Croats did around their
16 Q. You testified that 10 civilians were killed
17 all together. Do you know under which circumstances
18 these civilians died? Did you see how, in what manner,
19 each of them were killed?
20 A. I know that none of them had a gun in his
21 hand, of these ten that died.
22 Q. Did you see the circumstances in which those
23 people were killed, in what manner?
24 A. The first three on the 18th that were
25 captured were captured in Purisevo. So during the
1attack on the 18th, they were captured as civilians.
2 Normally, in civilian structures, and I didn't see what
3 happened -- to this day, they haven't been exchanged.
4 One of them was 65 years of age.
5 Q. Can you please give me a direct answer?
6 Under which circumstances were those civilians killed?
7 MR. KEHOE: Excuse me, counsel. I would ask
8 that counsel ask questions and not editorialise on
9 whether or not he agrees or disagrees with his answer
10 by commenting, "Please give me a direct answer."
11 JUDGE JORDA: Okay, objection sustained. Ask
12 your questions, Mr. Nobilo, and let's move on.
13 Continue, please.
14 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I was not
15 commenting, but the witness is avoiding answering the
16 question. I asked twice, and I attempted the third
17 time. Please allow me to ask whether he knows under
18 which circumstances these civilians were killed, and
19 that's the only answer I want. I'm not commenting.
20 Whether he knows, under which circumstances they were
21 killed, that's a relevant question.
22 A. On the 18th of April --
23 MR. KEHOE: He's editorialising.
24 Editorialising goes on often in the questions which I
25 let go, and I don't object to it. The question that
1started off questioning why he doesn't answer his
2 direct question, that is editorialising by counsel.
3 And I simply ask counsel to ask questions and restrict
4 his comments until final argument. That's all.
5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, let me say to you,
6 there's always some degree of editorialising in
7 questions. What I'm trying to do is to be sure that we
8 respect certain limits. I've sustained your objection
9 by telling Mr. Nobilo to avoid anything that might be
10 comments. Now he has to ask questions as he wishes
11 to. He is the Defence counsel, and he can ask
12 questions as he likes. Have faith in me. I will be
13 very attentive about all of this.
14 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Witness WW, do you know under which
16 circumstances those ten civilians were killed, any of
17 them or all of them?
18 A. I don't know for all of them under which
19 circumstances. I know that they were killed as
20 civilians. On the 18th of April, these first three
21 that were captured during the first day were captured
22 in the first village that was burned down on the 18th.
23 They were captured then. I don't know for how long
24 they remained there. I don't know what exactly
25 happened. We still don't know nowadays what happened
2 I know for these other civilians that were
3 captured there normally, they saw the others that were
4 killed, that they were killed in front of their houses
5 or on some meadows while they were withdrawing, when
6 they wanted to leave. I couldn't see everything, how
7 each of them was killed. They saw them, for example,
8 that they were killed while they were leaving or coming
10 Q. Let's clarify this for the transcript. Can
11 we then conclude that you know that they were killed
12 but you don't know in what manner because you did not
13 see it?
14 A. I know that they were killed, but I don't
15 know in which way they were killed.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Move to another question,
18 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Q. I would just like the names of those ten
20 civilians to be mentioned?
21 A. Halilbasic Rifet, Colakovic Osman, Cutura
22 Adem, Japaur Hamdo, Japaur Munever, Rahmanovic Mustafa,
23 Osmanovic Enver, Mustajbegovic Halid, Japaur Ismet ...
24 Q. All right, if you can't recall any more
25 names. My next question is: Can we find any or all of
1these civilians on the list that I showed you a couple
2 of minutes ago?
3 A. You can find them, but at that time, these
4 people all remained down there in the street. So they
5 were not with the TO, so they didn't have a gun in
6 their hand.
7 Q. How long did the resistance last?
8 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, excuse me for
9 interrupting you. I think this is almost the break
10 time, so I want to know whether you still have a lot of
11 questions to ask. It's just having to do with
12 scheduling our hearing.
13 MR. NOBILO: Not a long time, but maybe it
14 would be a good idea to have the break now. Ten
15 minutes, fifteen minutes, it's hard to say.
16 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We will take a
17 20-minute break. The court is adjourned.
18 --- Recess taken at 11.19 a.m.
19 --- On resuming at 11.49 a.m.
20 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing will resume now.
21 Have the accused brought in, please.
22 (The accused entered court)
23 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo.
24 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. So we stopped at the time when we were trying
1to determine what's your idea, how long did this
2 resistance last until you retreated from the
3 municipality of Kiseljak?
4 A. It lasted till I was wounded, so we were at
5 the territory of Svinjarevo for five days.
6 Q. After you were wounded, did the unit remain
7 there at the territory of the Kiseljak municipality?
8 A. Yes, it remained there for another month.
9 Q. It's only the 25 people that you mentioned at
10 the beginning that fought?
11 A. Normally, where I was.
12 Q. Were there any soldiers killed in Svinjarevo?
13 A. In Svinjarevo, no.
14 Q. Not a single soldier, only ten civilians.
15 Can you please tell me, do you know whether any houses
16 were razed to the ground or burnt during that month and
17 a half and five days when the fighting was more intense
18 and closer to Svinjarevo? Were any houses damaged
19 during the combat and due to the combat?
20 A. The houses were destroyed mostly during the
21 attack from burning, normally, not from the shells.
22 None from the shells.
23 Q. Your brother was killed.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was he a soldier or a civilian?
1A. He was in the TO, member of the TO.
2 Q. He was killed in the fight around Svinjarevo;
3 is that what you were telling us about?
4 A. Yes, that's true, in the village Mahala. He
5 was carrying food.
6 Q. You said a little while ago that no soldiers
7 were killed, only civilians. How do you explain that?
8 A. He was carrying food.
9 JUDGE JORDA: Stay within the scope of the
10 examination-in-chief, please, Mr. Nobilo.
11 MR. NOBILO:
12 Q. Behrec and Gomionica, you said these villages
13 were attacked. Did they have their own units of the
14 Territorial Defence or the BiH army?
15 A. Normally, they had. Each village had the TO.
16 Q. Can we then say that the principal
17 organisation of the Territorial Defence and the HVO in
18 Bosnia was one village, one unit or several smaller
19 villages, one unit? Can we say that this was the
20 principle in both sides?
21 A. I don't know what the principle was like for
22 HVO. I know that each village had their guards, at
23 least the Bosniak villages, in '92.
24 Q. You said that in this area there were 200
25 houses that were destroyed by one and that you
1evacuated 220 civilians through the woods. What about
2 the rest of the population? When did they evacuate?
3 A. All the destroyed villages that were in the
4 upper part of Svinjarevo, for example, ten to fifteen
5 houses, these were empty houses that the people had
6 built and then they moved to new houses in Svinjarevo.
7 So that these other ones were empty.
8 Q. You meant abandoned?
9 A. Yes, abandoned because people built new
10 houses and they moved to these new houses before the
12 Q. But if 200 houses, less ten or fifteen, it's
13 180 or 185, and we have 220 civilians that you
14 evacuated, so I ask you whether some inhabitants left
15 the area before the fighting?
16 A. No, not ten to fifteen, there were four
17 hamlets there, Purisevo, Mahala, and these were
18 hamlets. This is not ten to fifteen houses, this is 50
19 or 60 houses.
20 Q. So 60 abandoned old houses?
21 A. Approximately.
22 Q. We saw the pictures of your village. Can you
23 please tell us, do you know when these photographs were
25 A. No, I can't.
1Q. Were you in the village after it had been
2 burnt down, after everything was finished in 1993?
3 A. No, I wasn't there in 1993, but when Dayton
4 was signed, I went to the village Svinjarevo.
5 Q. So you saw your village for the first time
6 after the evacuation and the retreat in 1994, in
8 A. '93.
9 Q. In 1993, you left the village?
10 A. Yes, but during the Dayton Agreement --
11 Q. And when was the Dayton Agreement signed?
12 A. Somewhere in 1994.
13 Q. So you can only testify as to the way that
14 the village looked in 1994; is that correct?
15 A. '95. It was 1995 when I entered the village
16 for the first time. It wasn't '94.
17 Q. So you can only testify about the way that
18 the village looked in 1995?
19 A. '95.
20 Q. The villagers of your village, you are the
21 chairman of the committee, I don't know what the
22 official name is, of the agency for the return and the
23 reconstruction of Svinjarevo, you're working on it,
24 you're trying to rebuild the village, and you're
25 planning to go back. But in the meantime, where did
1the people from your village live, those people who
2 fled, the 220 people who fled?
3 A. Fojnica, Visoko, Kakanj, and Bilalovac.
4 Q. Whose houses?
5 A. Mostly all of us live -- a very small number
6 of us in Bosniak houses, a few of us in Serbian houses,
7 and most of us in Croatian houses.
8 Q. Let's go back to the very beginning when our
9 client, Colonel Blaskic, came to Jehovac. What was the
10 reason why he came there? Was it an official meeting
11 or was it accidental?
12 A. No, there wasn't an official meeting. He
13 just stopped by.
14 Q. Can you tell us now from the distance and
15 from your experience that you have now, among the
16 villagers of Bosniak nationality, his arrival, his
17 words, did it have a calming effect to the inter-ethnic
19 A. Yes. Normally, it was calming us down and it
20 worked because he told us that there would be no
21 problems, that we should live together in that sense.
22 Q. This group in which you were when Colonel
23 Blaskic arrived, was it only Bosniaks or were there
24 also Croats there?
25 A. There were four or five Bosniaks.
1Q. The rest, were they Croats?
2 A. No, they were not Croats.
3 MR. NOBILO: So only Bosniaks. I have no
4 further questions.
5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, do you want to ask
6 any additional questions within the scope of the
8 MR. KEHOE: Of course. Just a couple of
9 questions, and I would ask that Exhibit D142 that
10 Defence counsel used with the witness be given to the
11 witness? I'm sorry, 143. I apologise. Yes.
12 Re-examined by Mr. Kehoe:
13 Q. Witness WW, how many weapons did the TO have
14 to defend itself in the village of Svinjarevo on the
15 morning of the 18th of April, 1993?
16 A. We had about 25 rifles.
17 Q. Now, what type of rifles were these?
18 A. Seven hunting rifles, eight M-48 rifles, ten
19 rifles were automatic rifles.
20 Q. Now, you were shelled that morning, were you
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What were you shelled with?
24 A. Sixty-millimetre mortars, 80-millimetre
25 mortars, 120-millimetre mortars, and also one or two
2 Q. Did you have any mortars or any anti-aircraft
3 weapons to respond to the shelling by the HVO?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Now let's turn to this Exhibit D143 that
6 Defence counsel gave you. Do you see that before you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, is this the list of every living male up
9 to approximately 50-something, I suppose, living in the
10 Svinjarevo-Behrici-Rudnik area?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Let's look at this first page. Do you know a
13 man by the name of Rahamovic Nezir?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did he ever participate in any of the TO
17 A. No, he didn't even participate in the guard
19 Q. What about Kebic Mirsad, the next individual?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Look down that page. Do you know a man by
22 the name of Purisevic Nurija?
23 A. No.
24 JUDGE JORDA: Could you indicate the pages,
25 please? I'm not following you very clearly. I've got
1the first -- the first one -- we're on what page?
2 MR. KEHOE: These aren't paged; Defence
3 counsel hasn't paginated them. It's a page that has
4 Bego Seid as the first name, Judge. All I'm going
5 through is a list of these people; a lot of these
6 people never participated in any of this. There's no
7 pages on this, Judge, which is a little difficult. It
8 says Command III --
9 JUDGE JORDA: Maybe it's page 5. There's a
10 number 5 on the top. Is it page 5 then? All the way
11 on the top. That's what my colleagues are pointing out
12 to me. Is that it?
13 MR. KEHOE: I think so, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE RIAD: Yes, we found it.
15 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Thank you to my
16 colleagues. Continue, please.
17 MR. KEHOE:
18 Q. Do you know someone by the name of Purisevic
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What was his physical condition at that time?
22 A. Well, bad. He was 80 per cent disabled.
23 Q. So at the time of the war, he's 80 per cent
25 A. Yes.
1Q. Did he fight with you during these attack
2 periods of time in 1993?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Let's continue down that page. Do you know a
5 man by the name of Japaur Asef?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What was his physical condition?
8 A. Well, it was bad. He was not with us at all.
9 Q. Continue down that page. Rahmanovic Husein.
10 Do you know that man?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What was his physical condition?
13 A. Bad. He had been in a traffic accident.
14 Q. Let's turn to the next page, which is the
15 page, Your Honour, which has I VOD and then the Roman
16 numeral II.
17 Let's go down, in that first group, let's
18 look at Ibreljic Vahid. Do you know that man?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did he participate with you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. What was the matter with him?
23 A. He had a spine condition.
24 Q. Let's continue down to the next group.
25 Brkanovic Hasan. Do you know that man?
2 Q. Did he ever participate?
3 A. No.
4 Q. What about the next group, Behlil Ramiz.
5 Where was he from?
6 A. He was from the village of Rudnik.
7 Q. Did he ever participate?
8 A. No, because he was in Kiseljak, and he baked
9 bread with Hrvoje in the municipality of Kiseljak
10 during the conflict.
11 JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. What do you mean by
13 MR. KEHOE: A lot of these people on here
14 never were involved in the TO, never did anything.
15 This is a group or list that is simply on paper, Judge,
16 and it's not a reality as to what was happening. What
17 has happened is these lists were developed before that
18 were obviously taken and it's a list of every living
19 man there that didn't actually do anything, that didn't
21 JUDGE RIAD: Were they participating in
22 fighting or in ensuring the security of a village? I
23 mean, there are many participations.
24 MR. KEHOE: They didn't do anything.
25 JUDGE RIAD: Could you just be clear?
2 Q. The individuals that we talked about so far,
3 Witness WW, did they participate in any way in guarding
4 or defending the village?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Continue on that same list. Behlil Mujo, do
7 you know that individual?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did he participate in defending or guarding
10 the village?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Let's continue on with the next name,
13 Hodurda, and pardon my pronunciation, Bajazid. Do you
14 see that name?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did he participate?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Continue on that list. Keep going down.
19 Behlil Hasan, did he participate?
20 A. No.
21 Q. So, Witness WW, based on your experience with
22 the TO in Svinjarevo, does this list of people made in
23 '92 accurately depict who was working in the TO when
24 the HVO attacked on the 18th of April, 1993?
25 A. I did not understand your question.
1Q. Is this an accurate list of the members of
2 the TO as of April 18th, 1993? Is this a list on paper
3 or is this actually the amount of soldiers you had?
4 A. This is just a theoretical list.
5 Q. Now, you were asked by Defence counsel, when
6 you went back into the village, and you said you went
7 back into the village after the Dayton Peace Accords;
8 is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. When you were in the village in April of
11 1993, did you see the HVO burning all of these houses
12 while you were at various locations, and did you see
13 smoke emanating from other locations where it clearly
14 indicated that they were burning those houses?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was there any military reason for them to
17 burn every house in Svinjarevo?
18 A. No military reason because all the houses
19 that were burnt in the lower part, there were no
20 members of the Territorial Defence.
21 Q. In fact, sir, did you see HVO soldiers
22 pouring petrol or benzene on houses to burn them on
24 A. I saw on the 23rd, in the village of Mahala,
25 that was when Mahala fell, the last house was burned in
1the following way: A lad that was burning the houses
2 carried a jerrycan. That's the only thing I saw. I
3 didn't see how they set the fire to other buildings.
4 Q. And after you saw him carrying the jerrycan,
5 did the houses go up in flames?
6 A. All the houses before were already in flames
7 bar that last one, and that last one, the last house in
8 the village, was also set on fire. I saw the soldier
9 carry a jerrycan, he entered the house, and all of a
10 sudden, there was this smoke and flames coming from the
12 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, Your Honours, I
13 have no further questions. Thank you.
14 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. The Judges are
15 going to ask some questions now.
16 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness WW. I
17 just would like to understand more clearly a few
5 A. No.
6 JUDGE RIAD: What do you mean by, this was a
7 theoretical list, about the list, if I understand you?
8 What do you mean by it was a theoretical list?
9 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me. This is a public
10 hearing --
11 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. In respect of the words
12 that are being said, I would like to remind you that
13 this is now a public hearing, so in respect of the
14 questions that you want to ask, Judge Riad, would you
15 prefer that we have a private session? That might be
17 All right. We're going to move into a
18 private session.
19 (Private session)
13 Page 9741 redacted - in closed session
13 Page 9742 redacted - in closed session
13 Page 9743 redacted - in closed session
13 Page 9744 redacted - in closed session
13 Page 9745 redacted - in closed session
24 (Open session)
25 JUDGE JORDA: We're back in public session
1now, are we? Mr. Kehoe, it's now 25 after 12. Do you
2 have any other witnesses? Would you prefer us to wait
3 until the afternoon? Where are we?
4 MR. KEHOE: I would prefer, Mr. President, if
5 we could wait until the afternoon with the court's
7 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if we may
8 suggest, we agree, but these 35 minutes, that goes the
9 time of the Prosecutor.
10 MR. HAYMAN: I have a different request. I
11 would ask the court to instruct the Prosecutor not to
12 discuss this list with the next witness who, I think,
13 is also from the (redacted). Let's get the
14 witness's own impressions of the list without the extra
15 two hours of preparation concerning this list if,
16 indeed, the next witness is from (redacted).
17 So we would ask for a sequestering of the
18 next witness on that limited issue from the Prosecution
19 during the lunch break.
20 JUDGE JORDA: Now you're empowering me with
21 powers more greater than those given to me by the
22 statute, and I don't know what I can answer.
23 Mr. Kehoe, were you planning to prepare the
24 next witness? Did you plan to have lunch with the next
25 witness and to prepare him again?
1MR. KEHOE: Your Honour, I don't know what
2 counsel is afraid of. Have no fear. I will not have
3 lunch with the next witness. I will not sit down and
4 chat with the next witness and maybe go to the beach
5 together. I mean, I don't know what the import is of
6 counsel's arguments. Have no fear, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE JORDA: Anyway, we don't have enough
8 time. Very well, I think that's the end of this
9 incident. However, Mr. Nobilo asked that the 35
10 minutes be counted as part of the Prosecution case.
11 You know that I'm trying to apply this rule as flexibly
12 as I can, but it's true that there are a lot of holes
13 in our schedule. Therefore, it is legitimate that this
14 be counted as part of the Prosecution's time. Now let
15 me turn to my colleagues.
16 Very well, the Judges say that we will resume
17 at a quarter after two, 2.15.
18 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President.
19 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.27 p.m.
1--- On resuming at 2.24 p.m.
2 (Open session)
3 JUDGE JORDA: We will resume the hearing
4 now. Have the accused brought in, please?
5 (The accused entered court)
6 JUDGE JORDA: We can resume now. Mr. Cayley,
7 you are going to represent the Prosecution; is that
9 MR. CAYLEY: Good afternoon, Mr. President,
10 Your Honours, Counsel. Yes, I am.
11 The Prosecutor now proposes to adduce
12 additional evidence in support of paragraphs 5 and 5.1,
13 these being part of the general allegations in the
14 second amended indictment against General Blaskic. I
15 think it is now accepted jurisprudence within this
16 Tribunal that in order for those charges, which are
17 grave breaches and which rely upon the Geneva
18 Convention for their legal foundation, the four Geneva
19 Conventions, there must be a preliminary finding by the
20 court under paragraph 5 and 5.1. It is this finding
21 which, if you will, triggers the grave breaches
22 provisions of the Geneva Conventions.
23 Now, the requirements of that finding and its
24 factual parameters are a matter for closing argument
25 between the parties and, ultimately, judicial finding.
1Now is not the appropriate time for that argument.
2 However, I think it would not be improper or
3 ill-founded of me at this time to say that, broadly
4 speaking, this part of the proof concerns the extent
5 and manner of the military and political relationship
6 between the Republic of Croatia and the HV on the one
7 side, and the Croatian community, later Republic of
8 Herceg-Bosna, and the HVO on the other side.
9 To this is logically connected the role and
10 involvement of the Republic of Croatia in the affairs
11 of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1991 to
12 1994. At the outset, I would like to submit to the
13 Chamber and to the Defence two tabulated dossiers
14 containing a number of documents.
15 Mr. Registrar, if those documents could be
16 distributed to the court?
17 These documents, along with oral testimony
18 and a few other documents which we will submit towards
19 the end of the case, are our proofs for this part of
20 the case. There will be no oral testimony for this
21 part of the proceedings. How I propose to proceed,
22 Mr. President, if you're in agreement, is to, in
23 essence, give a summary of these documents. Within
24 that summary, I hope to highlight the evolution of
25 these assembled papers, relying exclusively on the
1facts contained within the documents. I will not be
2 drawing any conclusion, giving any argument at all.
3 That is not for this part of the case. There are 113
4 documents in these two dossiers. I intend to go
5 through some of the documents individually, but with
6 others, I simply propose to speak about groups of
7 documents. The index provided to all of the parties
8 indicates the origin of each individual document.
9 MR. HAYMAN: May I, Counsel?
10 MR. CAYLEY: Please.
11 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President, we are not sure
12 what this procedure is. We are unaware of it and have
13 not had any prior information about it. If the
14 Prosecution has documents they wish to offer, we
15 certainly find that appropriate. We can look at them.
16 We may not have objection to any of them. We may have
17 objection to some of them, and we can respond in due
18 course. But counsel is not a witness. He's not a
19 summary witness. He's not a fact witness. He's not a
20 legal expert witness. He's no kind of witness. And
21 this is -- nor is this time for closing argument or the
22 time for a summary of other evidence.
23 We're entirely unfamiliar with the type of
24 proceeding that counsel is proposing. We've listened.
25 We will listen further about exactly what the nature of
1this proceeding is and, perhaps, take guidance from the
2 court, of course, ultimately. But as far as we know,
3 in my system and the continental system that Mr. Nobilo
4 is expert in, parties can offer documents, and then at
5 the end of the case, comment on them, but parties don't
6 comment on documents directly to the court in the
7 middle of the case.
8 JUDGE JORDA: I would like to deliberate with
9 my colleagues.
10 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, would it be
11 appropriate for me to respond to the --
12 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, excuse me. I forgot to
13 give you the floor before I conferred with my
14 colleagues. I'm referring to Rule 85, but we'll listen
15 to you first, yes.
16 MR. CAYLEY: My learned friend has
17 misinterpreted what I said or, perhaps, has misheard
18 me. I'm not presenting myself as a witness. We are in
19 a unique institution in this court. We are not obliged
20 to follow the particular rules of any common law or
21 civil law system. The rules provide that any evidence
22 may be admitted by a Chamber if it is relevant and if
23 it is deemed to have probative value. There are no
24 requirements in the rules as to how that particular
25 evidence can be presented. Indeed, Rule 85 speaks that
1each party is entitled to call witnesses and present
2 evidence. There is no requirement that a witness needs
3 to be called to present this particular evidence.
4 As I've already stated earlier, I have no
5 intention of making any sort of argument about these
6 documents. My intent is simply to give a summary to
7 the court, if you will, a navigational chart, so that
8 the most important aspects of these documents can be
9 highlighted to the court. We can identify the origin
10 of all but one of these documents. The court can be
11 secure in that fact. So I'm perfectly happy to argue
12 later with my learned friend about the question of
13 admissibility, which I think is, in my view and the
14 Prosecutor's view, beyond doubt.
15 These documents can be admitted into
16 evidence, and there is nothing in the rules which
17 precludes us from offering evidence in this manner.
18 MR. HAYMAN: Those are two different
19 questions, Mr. President, whether the documents --
20 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, I can give the
21 floor back to you, but you had your response. All
22 right, go ahead. Go ahead, but do it quickly, please.
23 MR. HAYMAN: Just for clarity of the
24 argument. There are two different issues. Documents
25 may well be self-authenticating and we may not object
1to them, and documents can come in without a witness.
2 That's one issue. A separate issue is whether counsel,
3 in the middle of their case, can lecture the court on
4 what documents contain and, perhaps, what they mean.
5 We don't think the latter is appropriate. The former,
6 we don't know if there is a dispute because we have
7 never seen these binders before. And we would propose,
8 quite frankly, the court can admit them subject to the
9 Defence having the opportunity to review them and raise
10 any objections or concerns we may. Then we proceed
11 with the next witness.
12 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. The Judges decide
13 that an application of Rule 85(A) of the rules, each of
14 the parties is entitled to call and present evidence.
15 We are in this case here, and the Judges, therefore,
16 accept that the Prosecutor can present the evidence
17 which is found in these documents. However, as regards
18 admissibility, this could be discussed at the time when
19 the Defence replies through the presentation of its own
20 evidence. For the time being, we admit the
21 presentation, by the Prosecutor, of the evidence. The
22 admissibility, as well as the relevance, will be
23 discussed and admitted by the Tribunal, of course, in
24 light of any answers that the Defence may make at the
25 proper time, and that may be at any time.
1We will, therefore, continue and we will hear
2 what Mr. Cayley has to present us as evidence.
3 MR. CAYLEY: If I can just reassure a concern
4 that my learned friend has expressed. I am in no way
5 going to draw any conclusions from these documents at
6 that time. That would be improper of me. I simply
7 intend to summarise, in a very short period of time,
8 probably about 20 minutes, the broad content of these
10 JUDGE JORDA: Well, take as much as time as
11 you need. We have taken a decision. We accept that
12 this is presented. If you need more than 20 minutes,
13 then take more than 20 minutes. Conciseness is not
14 really part of the discussion here. Take the time that
15 you need. That's your problem.
16 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE JORDA: Very well.
18 MR. CAYLEY: A number of documents are
19 confidential and we will have to move into closed
20 session for those documents. They have been provided
21 to the Tribunal on a confidential basis, but I will
22 express at the time the necessity, with your
23 permission, Mr. President, to move into private
25 A number of the documents have been
1translated into the French language, not all of them.
2 We will endeavour to have a full set of translations
3 before the end of the case.
4 If I can refer the court, first of all, to
5 document 1. In July of 1991, the Bosnian branch of the
6 Croatian Democratic Union or the HDZ --
7 JUDGE JORDA: Are we in a closed session
9 THE REGISTRAR: For the time being, this is
10 still public.
11 JUDGE JORDA: You would prefer that this be
12 completely closed, Mr. Cayley?
13 MR. CAYLEY: It can be open for the time
14 being, Mr. President, and I will let you know at the
15 appropriate time.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. All right then, for
17 the time being, we will remain in public session.
18 MR. CAYLEY: In July of 1991, the Bosnian
19 branch of the HDZ, the Croatian Democratic Union, met
20 in Busovaca. Present were leaders of the Bosnian HDZ
21 from Kresevo, Kiseljak, Fojnica, Busovaca, Vitez, Novi
22 Travnik and Travnik. Dario Kordic presided at that
23 meeting. There was deep concern expressed about the
24 security situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia.
25 A number of conclusions were reached, including that
1the Republic of Croatia was the victim of aggression at
2 the hands of the JNA and the Chetniks, and that in
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, a silent occupation was being
4 carried out by the Serbs.
5 In light of that Serb threat to
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, a rallying call was made to all
7 Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina. A clear reference is
8 made in this document to the protection of Croat
9 interests in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
10 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley, could you please
11 slow down for the sake of the interpreters?
12 MR. CAYLEY: And a proposal is made within
13 this document for the formation of the Croatian
14 National Council to represent the authority for the
15 Croat peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina as an alternative
16 to the Bosnian official authorities.
17 The document makes clear reference to Croatia
18 as the motherland and calls on the president of the
19 Bosnian branch of the Croatian Democratic Union to
20 arrange an urgent session of the HDZ, BiH main board on
21 the 24th of July, 1991 and calls four leaders of the
22 HDZ in Zagreb, in the Republic of Croatia, to attend
23 that session.
24 Document 2: This is a document of the 12th
25 of November of 1991, and it sets out a policy of an
1organisation termed the Croatian Regional Community of
2 Herzegovina and the Travnik Regional Community of
3 Croats. That policy is declared as the formation of a
4 common Croatian state formed from the Republic of
5 Croatia and those areas as claimed as Croatian
6 territories within Bosnia-Herzegovina. The document
7 refers to previous agreements with the presence of
8 Croatia in Zagreb, in this regard, on the 30th and 20th
9 of June, 1991.
10 Document 3 demonstrates that by March of
11 1992, large sums of money were being made available by
12 the Republic of Croatia for the physical defence of
13 Croat interests in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 Document 4 shows that at the same time, the
15 late Gojka Susak, then Minister of Defence for the
16 Republic of Croatia, is called upon by the Central
17 Bosnian command of Bosnian Croat forces for instruction
18 for military action in the area of Central Bosnia.
19 If we can move ahead now to document 5. On
20 the 21st of March of 1992, Dr. Franjo Tudjman, the
21 president of the Republic of Croatia, writes to Alija
22 Izetbegovic, the President of the Republic of Bosnia,
23 and by way of formal decision recognises the state of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina and offers citizenship to the
25 Republic of Croatia, to members of the Croatian nation
2 The next set of documents can be taken as a
3 group, and they are documents 6 to 22. On the 10th of
4 April of 1992, Dr. Tudjman appoints General Janko
5 Bobetko in command of all units of the Croatian army,
6 the HV, on the southern front from the cities of Split
7 to Dubrovnik. A staff is ordered to be formed at the
8 same time.
9 Document 7 shows that on the 12th of April,
10 1992, an order is issued by the commander of the Split
11 operative zone, Mate Viduka, on the order of General
12 Bobetko, to move the 4th Brigade of the Croatian
13 National Guard Corps to the defence of Citluk in
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The brigade is ordered to remove
15 all Croatian army insignia before proceeding to Citluk
16 and to present themselves as volunteer defenders of the
18 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down.
19 MR. CAYLEY: I'm sorry.
20 JUDGE RIAD: Perhaps you could repeat that?
21 MR. CAYLEY: Document 7, Judge Riad, is an
22 order of the 12th of April, 1992, issued by the
23 commander of the Split operative zone, a man by the
24 name of Mate Viduka, on the order of General Bobetko, a
25 Croatian lieutenant-general, to move the 4th Brigade of
1the Croatian National Guard Corps to the defence of
2 Citluk, which is a town in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The
3 brigade is ordered to remove all Croatian army insignia
4 before proceeding to Citluk and to present themselves
5 as volunteer defenders of the homeland.
6 Document 8 is an order of General Bobetko of
7 the 16th of April of 1992. This Croatian
8 lieutenant-general establishes a forward command post
9 of his southern command in Grude in
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Document 8 has attached to it the
11 seal of the main staff of Herceg-Bosna, and it appoints
12 Colonel Milivoj Petkovic as the deputy of General Janko
13 Bobetko, a Croatian lieutenant-general.
14 Document 9. On the 19th of April of 1992,
15 General Bobetko orders the preparation of the defence
16 of Livno and Tomislavgrad, both of these places being
17 20 kilometres inside the national border of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Again, this order is signed by
19 General Bobetko as commander of the Croatian southern
20 front and is sealed "Herceg-Bosna Main Staff."
21 Document 10. On the 20th of April of 1992,
22 General Bobetko, Croatian lieutenant-general, appoints
23 a number of officers of the HVO of the Croatian
24 community of Herceg-Bosna. He still signs, from the
25 Grude command post, as commander of the southern front,
1but this time you will note from the document that his
2 orders are given on the headed paper of the Croatian
3 community of Herceg-Bosna, Croatian Defence Council.
4 Document 11. On the same day, General
5 Bobetko appoints Major General Ante Roso and Brigadier
6 Miljenko Crnjec to command positions in the HVO. One
7 is placed in command of Livno and the other in charge
8 of the Duvno-Prozor-Konjic region. Both Prozor and
9 Konjic are at least 60 kilometres inside
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina from its border with the Republic of
12 Document 12, again on that day, the 21st of
13 April, General Bobetko calls Major General Ante Roso,
14 General Slobodan Praljak and Brigadier Crnjec to report
15 to him for a briefing. Again, this is on the headed
16 notepaper of the HVO and the HZ-HB, the Croatian
17 community of Herceg-Bosna.
18 Document 13 is a document of the 4th of May,
19 1992, where, as commander of the southern front command
20 of the army of the Republic of Croatia, General Bobetko
21 transmits an order from the main staff of the Croatian
22 army to the headquarters of the HVO in respect of
23 military training requirements.
24 Now, a document which may seem out of place
25 and interrupts the continuity of these documents is
1Resolution 752, which is document 14, Resolution 752 of
2 the Security Council, and this is a document that
3 demands that both the army of the Republic of Croatia
4 and the JNA cease from interfering in
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, withdraw, and respect the
6 territorial integrity of the country, and that document
7 is dated the 15th of May and is provided in English and
9 Move on now to document 15. On the 16th of
10 May, 1992, one day after Resolution 752 is passed by
11 the Security Council, General Bobetko issues orders to
12 Major General Roso to strengthen his position in
13 Tomislavgrad, a town in Bosnia-Herzegovina; he moves
14 Colonel Milivoj Petkovic to Tomislavgrad and notifies
15 General Roso that he is requesting the Minister of
16 Defence of Croatia to visit the town of Tomislavgrad to
17 use his authority to eliminate all groups and
18 individuals who claim to act on the Croatian Minister's
20 Document 16 --
21 JUDGE JORDA: You're going a little quickly
22 there. I'm trying to follow you in English at the same
23 time. This is the fifth member -- what is the last
24 part you say there? Will be replaced what?
25 MR. CAYLEY: This is document 15,
1Mr. President, and if you note in paragraph 5 --
2 JUDGE JORDA: All right. I see. All right.
4 MR. CAYLEY: The General, General Janko
5 Bobetko, is notified --
6 JUDGE JORDA: I don't go quite as quickly as
7 you do when it comes to reading English. Excuse me.
8 I'm trying to follow what you're doing and to get to
9 the essentials. It's all right. I see where you are.
10 Go ahead, go ahead.
11 Yes, okay. I wanted to learn English so
12 badly that I didn't even look at the French text.
13 Thank you very much. Go ahead. Go to 17. All right.
14 MR. CAYLEY: Moving ahead now to document 16.
15 On the 19th of May of 1992, and this document
16 is in French, General Bobetko, as commander of the
17 southern front command of the Croatian army,
18 establishes a forward command post for Central Bosnia
19 covering the municipalities of Busovaca, Vitez, Novi
20 Travnik, Travnik, Bugonjo, Gornji Vakuf, Prozor,
21 Tomislavgrad and Posusje, and appoints Brigadier Zarko
22 Tole as commander of the IZM Central Bosnia.
23 Document 17. On the 10th of June of 1992,
24 Gojko Susak, the Minister of Defence of the Republic of
25 Croatia, sends a number of personnel and equipment of
1the 101st Brigade of the National Guard of Croatia to
2 the southern command of the Croatian army on temporary
3 duty. These individuals are ordered to report to
4 General Bobetko.
5 In document 18, you will see a document of
6 the 10th of June of 1992 in which Mr. Dario Kordic,
7 from the Central Bosnian HVO regional headquarters,
8 issues a permanent pass to an individual in Vares in
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina giving free passage both through the
10 Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna and the Republic of
12 Document 19 is another order from General
13 Bobetko. This time the Croatian lieutenant-general
14 issues an order that HVO, Croatian Defence Council
15 military ID cards are to be issued to members of the
16 HVO by June the 30th of 1992, and you will see that in
17 paragraph 2.
18 JUDGE JORDA: Please go a little bit more
19 slowly, please. The interpreters are having a little
20 problem following you and the Judges also.
21 Go ahead, please.
22 MR. CAYLEY: Within this order, he issues a
23 direct order to the main headquarters of the HVO in
24 Grude. Now, again, you will note that the printed
25 heading on this document is Croatian community of
1Herceg-Bosna, Croatian Defence Council.
2 Document 20. On the same day, General
3 Bobetko issues orders to the operative group for
4 southeast Herzegovina for operations in
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina. These orders are issued from his
6 Ploca forward headquarters in the Republic of Croatia.
7 Both the HV and the HVO are being deployed by virtue of
8 these orders. He orders deployment of HVO armour,
9 tanks in the Stolac region, a coordinated military
10 operation using both HV and HVO military assets in
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina under the command of the Croatian
13 Document 21. On the 15th of June of 1992,
14 another order is issued in which units of the HVO and
15 the HVO (sic) are deployed together by General Bobetko,
16 and you will find a similar order of the 18th of June
17 of 1992 in document 22.
18 I have just noticed a mistake in the
19 transcript where it's stated: "On the 15th of June of
20 1992, another order is issued in which units of the HVO
21 and the HVO are deployed together." It should be "HVO
22 and HV are deployed together."
23 Move ahead now to document 23. This is a
24 document of the 24th of July of 1992 in which, General
25 then, Colonel Blaskic issues an order on behalf of the
1commander of the Central Bosnia OSHQ to send HVO troops
2 to Croatia for training in reconnaissance missions.
3 Document 24. On the 11th of September of
4 1992, the military post in Split, in the Republic of
5 Croatia, confirms the delivery of a large quantity of
6 ammunition to the HVO in Bugojno in
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The receipt is signed by a colonel
8 in the Croatian army. He signs the stamp of 4th Guards
9 Brigade of the National Guard Corps of the Ministry of
10 Defence for the Republic of Croatia.
11 Document 25.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down.
13 MR. CAYLEY: My apologies. I'll go
14 deliberately slowly now.
15 An order of the 19th of September, 1992,
16 issued by Colonel Blaskic confirms that weapons and
17 ammunition are moving from the Republic of Croatia to
18 the HVO in Bosnia-Herzegovina and from the HVO in
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina to the Republic of Croatia.
20 Movement of military material from Bosnia-Herzegovina
21 to the Republic of Croatia requires the signature of
22 Mr. Dario Kordic or Colonel Blaskic.
23 Document 26. On the 5th of October, 1992,
24 Colonel Blaskic, as commander of the Central Bosnian
25 operative zone, issues an order to commanders of his
1subordinate HVO municipal headquarters to provide to
2 him the personal data of HV Croatian army officers in
3 these HVO municipal headquarters.
4 You will see in document 27 a document of the
5 6th of October of 1992. A similar order is issued by
6 another HVO operative zone commander. This order makes
7 it clear that Croatian army officers serving in the HVO
8 cannot leave the HVO without a direct order from the
9 Ministry of Defence in the Republic of Croatia.
10 If we could now move into private session,
11 because the next series of documents are confidential?
12 JUDGE JORDA: Continue, Mr. Cayley.
13 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 (Private session)
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12 (Open session)
13 MR. CAYLEY: The balance of the documents are
14 all, I think, almost exclusively documents from the
15 United Nations, and I'd like to draw your attention,
16 Your Honours, to a number of these documents. Document
17 96 is a letter dated the 1st of February, 1994 from the
18 Secretary-General addressed to the President of the
19 Security Council. On page 1 of that letter, and I
20 quote from the Secretary-General: "The Croatian army
21 has directly supported the HVO in terms of manpower,
22 equipment, and weapons for some time. Initially, the
23 level of support was limited to individual and
24 subunits, many of them volunteers. As the offensives
25 of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Government forces against
1the HVO have become successful, the numbers of Croatian
2 soldiers appear to have increased. It is assessed that
3 in total there is the equivalent of three Croatian
4 Brigades of regular Army personnel in Bosnia and
5 Herzegovina, approximately 3.000 to 5.000 (this is an
6 estimation, as it is impossible with UNPROFOR's assets
7 to obtain required information for a more accurate
8 account). There have been confirmed reports by
9 UNPROFOR personnel that elements (troops and equipment)
10 from the following Croatian Army (HV) units are indeed
11 present in central and southern Bosnia and
12 Herzegovina. 1 Guards Brigade; 2 Guards Brigade; 5
13 Guards Brigade; 7 Guards Brigade; 114 Brigade; 116
14 Brigade, 4th battalion; and Special military police."
15 The report then goes on to explain the level of
16 equipment being provided by the HV.
17 On the same day that this letter is written,
18 the permanent representative of the Republic of Croatia
19 responds to the President of the Security Council, and
20 he states, and this is document 97: "My Government
21 does not deny that there are regular Croatian army
22 troops in the border areas between the Republic of
23 Croatia and the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
24 They are stationed there in accordance with the Joint
25 Agreement of 12 July, 1992 between my Government and
1the Government of the Republic of Bosnia and
3 Then in the final paragraph on that page, "My
4 Government remains concerned about the welfare of
5 ethnic Croat citizens of the Republic of Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina which are under siege by the army of Bosnia
7 and Herzegovina in the Vitez, Kiseljak, Usora, and
8 Zepce enclaves and elsewhere."
9 Document 99 is a letter from the permanent
10 representative of Croatia enclosing a letter from Mate
11 Granic, the Deputy Prime Minister of Croatia, a
12 Minister for Foreign Affairs, and this letter is
13 addressed to the Secretary-General of the United
14 Nations. Mr. Granic says the following, and this is on
15 page 3 in the pre-penultimate paragraph: "The Republic
16 of Croatia is ready to call off the units of the
17 Croatian Army on the left bank of the Neretva River and
18 elements of the Croatian Army on the right bank of the
20 In the next paragraph he states:
21 "Furthermore, as a measure aimed at easing the
22 tensions in the area, the Government of the Republic of
23 Croatia would advise the command of the Croatian
24 Defence Council (HVO) to withdraw a part of its heavy
25 weaponry in central Bosnia and to declare a cease-fire
1in the town of Mostar unilaterally."
2 On the 17th of February, 1994, and this is
3 document 100, the Secretary-General reverts to the
4 Security Council, and he states the following, and this
5 is on the final three paragraphs of page 2 of this
6 document: "As of 17 February, UNPROFOR has not yet
7 received any concrete proposals for a monitoring
8 arrangement nor have any of the troop movements
9 indicated in the above letter been observed.
10 "In the absence of any observation of HV
11 withdrawal movements beyond that on 10 February,
12 UNPROFOR continues to assess that there still may be
13 5.000 HV troops in Bosnia and Herzegovina, although no
14 HV command posts nor any full HV brigades operating as
15 formed units have been identified.
16 "It appears that HV troops are now being more
17 circumspect and may be removing their HV insignia while
18 in Bosnia and Herzegovina and replacing them with those
19 of the HVO. UNPROFOR believes that HV insignia on a
20 number of vehicles have been erased or repainted."
21 Move ahead to document 102 where the
22 permanent representative of Croatia to the United
23 Nations addresses the Secretary-General and states in
24 paragraph 2: "Croatian volunteers that had been
25 situated in the Uskoplje-Rama area in Central Bosnia
1have returned to the Republic of Croatia on 10 February
2 1994. The convoy consisting of 44 vehicles with 12
3 heavy artillery weapons, 3 buses, and 650 volunteers
4 crossed the Kamensko border-pass at 1700 hours and
5 proceeded towards Split.
6 "On 16 February at 1000, elements of the
7 Croatian Army left the wider Neretva River region and
8 have been repositioned in the Metkovic area on the
9 territory of the Republic of Croatia. I have received
10 information from my authorities that amongst the
11 aforesaid elements of the Croatian Army were 600
12 soldiers, 4 battle tanks and 6 heavy artillery
14 Document 106 is the actual cease-fire
15 agreement between the Bosnian army forces and the HVO
16 which is signed by the Chief of Staff, General Ante
17 Roso, and the commander of the Bosnian army in Zagreb.
18 Now, in this letter, and I don't intend to
19 read it out, Mario Nobilo, who is the Permanent
20 Representative of Croatia to the United Nations at this
21 time, speaks of the possible presence of Croatian army
22 units in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
23 If we could now go back into private session
24 for one or two final documents?
25 (Private session)
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