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  1. 1 Tuesday, 7th July 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 --- Upon commencing at 9.59 a.m.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: We will now resume our work.

    5 Good morning. Do the interpreters hear me? Good

    6 morning to them. That's fine. Does the Prosecution

    7 hear? Does the Defence hear?

    8 Very well. We're going to resume now for a

    9 day which may not be too long, but I would like things

    10 to be clear to everybody. Since the time which is not

    11 used today by the Prosecution will be counted as part

    12 of its time, whereas tomorrow, if not used, will not be

    13 counted because there have been changes at various

    14 levels which are regrettable but, in fact, it's the

    15 Tribunal that is responsible for that, and therefore it

    16 will not be counted against the Prosecution.

    17 Mr. Cayley I believe is going to conduct the

    18 examination. The floor is yours.

    19 MR. CAYLEY: Good morning, Mr. President,

    20 Your Honours, Counsel. The Prosecutor would now like

    21 to call a Major Oscar Meijboom, another Dutch army

    22 officer, an ECMM monitor from July of 1993 until

    23 January of 1994. He served predominantly in the

    24 municipalities of Kiseljak, Fojnica, Kresevo, and

    25 Visoko.

  2. 1He will speak in his testimony of a front-line

    2 visit that he made to the 3rd battalion of the Ban

    3 Jelacic brigade of the HVO. This took place in an area

    4 known as Otigosce in the municipality of Kiseljak. He

    5 will state that at this front-line position, he

    6 witnessed Bosnian Muslim men digging military

    7 fortifications for the HVO, and he will speak of the

    8 conversations that he had with the battalion commander

    9 at that location, a Mr. Branko Stanic, and he will tell

    10 the court about that man's views on Muslims in Kiseljak

    11 and of atrocities committed against the Muslim people

    12 in Kiseljak.

    13 Based on what he was told by the HVO in

    14 Kiseljak, he will explain to you the HVO command

    15 structure in that area as he saw it throughout his

    16 tour. He will speak briefly of his visits to the

    17 Rotilj village, which over seven months he visited 15

    18 to 20 times. He will speak of conditions there, of the

    19 evidence that he saw of looting of this village and of

    20 the physical abuse of Muslim detainees.

    21 He will speak of Serb involvement in the

    22 municipality of Kiseljak to the HVO, of the military

    23 assistance provided to the HVO in the form of T-55 main

    24 battle tanks which he himself witnessed in the

    25 municipality of Kiseljak. He will tell the Court of

  3. 1his conversations with the HVO authorities on the

    2 assistance that the Serbs were providing in moving

    3 supplies into Kiseljak municipality.

    4 He will tell the Court how, in October of

    5 1993, he sought population statistics from the HVO

    6 authorities in Kiseljak and Kresevo indicating the

    7 ethnic composition of those municipalities prior to the

    8 war. He will then give the figures as he knew them of

    9 the number of Muslims living in Kiseljak and Kresevo by

    10 October of 1993.

    11 Next he will speak of his attempts in October

    12 of 1993 to enter the village of Stupni Do in the

    13 municipality of Vares, and how the HVO refused to allow

    14 entry into that village because of supposed combat

    15 operations, how he saw truckloads of HVO troops leaving

    16 that village and how those troops explained that they

    17 were involved in work they did not like doing. He will

    18 speak of conversations that he had with the brigade

    19 commander, the HVO brigade commander, Emil Harah in

    20 Vares, and later with a conversation with Ivica Rajic

    21 at the HVO headquarters in Vares.

    22 Lastly, he will speak of a time in November

    23 when the International Community blamed Ivica Rajic for

    24 what had occurred in Stupni Do and for a number of

    25 other incidents involving NGOs and how he perceived

  4. 1that although Ivica Rajic was supposedly removed by the

    2 HVO authorities from command in Kiseljak, in reality,

    3 the man was not removed at all but remained in a

    4 position of command in Kiseljak, and the witness will

    5 broadly speak of what he perceived happening in

    6 Kiseljak at the time.

    7 His testimony is relevant to paragraphs 4,

    8 5.2, Count 1; persecution, Counts 5 to 10; wilful

    9 killing and causing serious injury, Counts 11 to 13;

    10 destruction and plunder of property, Counts 15, 16, 17,

    11 and 18; inhumane treatment and taking of hostages.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you for the summary.

    13 Mr. Dubuisson, would you have the witness brought in,

    14 please?

    15 There is no Dutch interpreter today?

    16 MR. CAYLEY: The witness is testifying in

    17 English, Mr. President. I spoke to the Dutch Ministry

    18 of Defence last night. They were reluctant, but

    19 they've agreed, and the witness has also agreed to

    20 testify in English.

    21 (The witness entered)

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you very much. That will

    23 speed things up. Do you hear me, Major. Presiding

    24 Judge speaking to you. Do you hear me?

    25 THE WITNESS: Yes.

  5. 1JUDGE JORDA: First of all, good morning.

    2 Tell us your family name, your given names, and your

    3 rank. Remain standing, please, until you have read

    4 your oath.

    5 THE WITNESS: My name is Meijboom, first name

    6 Oscar, I'm a Major in the Dutch army.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Would you spell your name for

    8 us, please? Please spell your name. Before you read

    9 the oath, would you please spell your name?

    10 THE WITNESS: M-E-I-J-B-O-O-M.

    11 JUDGE RIAD: How do you pronounce it?

    12 THE WITNESS: Meijboom.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Well, Major Meijboom, would you

    14 please read the statement?

    15 THE WITNESS: I promise to tell the truth,

    16 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. You have

    18 come at the request of the Prosecution as part of the

    19 trial of General Blaskic, the accused in this

    20 courtroom. You are going to answer the questions asked

    21 by the Prosecutor, you will speak freely. According to

    22 a procedure, which I'm sure Mr. Cayley has explained to

    23 you. When the Prosecution asks you a question, you can

    24 look at the person asking the question, but when you

    25 answer, please answer directly facing the Judges.

  6. 1Thank you.

    2 Mr. Cayley, you may proceed.

    3 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.


    5 Examined by Mr. Cayley

    6 Q. Major Meijboom, when I ask you a question, if

    7 you could pause slightly before you answer my question

    8 because I am being interpreted as you are,

    9 simultaneously, so it assists the interpreters.

    10 You joined the Dutch army in 1980?

    11 A. That's true.

    12 Q. You attended the officer training school in

    13 Breda in the Netherlands which was two years; is that

    14 correct?

    15 A. That's correct.

    16 Q. I think you then went into the medical branch

    17 of the Dutch army; is that correct?

    18 A. That's also correct.

    19 Q. I think you've held a number of platoon and

    20 company commands over both medical and administrative

    21 personnel in the Dutch army?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. I think you've also held a number of staff

    24 positions in the Dutch army?

    25 A. That's correct.

  7. 1Q. I think you're presently the second in

    2 command of the Dutch army garrison at Zoutkamp in

    3 Groningen?

    4 A. That's correct.

    5 Q. You're a Major now?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. I think you've done two tours of duty with

    8 the European Community Monitoring Mission?

    9 A. Yes, that's true.

    10 Q. One from July of 1993 to January 1994 in

    11 Central Bosnia, and one from January 1995 to August

    12 1995 in Bihac?

    13 A. That's correct.

    14 Q. Now, while you were in Central Bosnia, you

    15 were in a team that was mainly responsible for the

    16 municipalities of Kiseljak, Fojnica, Kresevo, and

    17 Visoko; is that correct?

    18 A. That's correct.

    19 Q. Now, concentrating on that period of time,

    20 from July of 1993 to January of 1994, I want you to

    21 recall some visits that you made to front-line positions

    22 in Kresevo and Tarcin, and Otigosce and Fojnica, and

    23 specifically a visit that you made in September of 1993

    24 to the Otigosce/Fojnica front-line. Could you explain

    25 what occurred on that visit to the Judges?

  8. 1A. Yes, I can. I visited the frontlines several

    2 times. I passed them two or three times a week. When

    3 I visited the front-line, I visited together with the

    4 battalion commander in the area, it was Mr. Branko

    5 Stanic. He wanted to show us the frontlines, and we

    6 came at the front-line and we saw his soldiers guarding

    7 some people working at the trenches. We asked

    8 Mr. Stanic about these people because they were

    9 unprotected, they didn't wear arms, as the other

    10 soldiers, so we asked him about these guys, and he just

    11 laughed and said these were some of his men.

    12 Q. Was this an HVO position?

    13 A. Yes, it was. It was on the front-line from

    14 the battalion facing the other troops in Fojnica area.

    15 Q. And Branko Stanic, who was he?

    16 A. He was the battalion commander.

    17 Q. Of this HO battalion?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. How many of these men were there digging

    20 military fortifications?

    21 A. Five or six.

    22 Q. Had you seen any of them before?

    23 A. I had seen two of these men before in a

    24 village named Rotilj near Kiseljak.

    25 Q. Did you and the other monitors come to a

  9. 1conclusion about who these people were digging these

    2 trenches?

    3 A. Yes, we did. These people were Muslim people

    4 from the village of Rotilj, they were men in the age of

    5 40 to 60, and they were kept in Rotilj and they were

    6 used to work on the trenches in Otigosce.

    7 Q. What sort of physical condition were these

    8 people in?

    9 A. Not really bad but not good as well. They

    10 were poorly dressed and they were a bit skinny.

    11 Q. Did you speak to Mr. Stanic about his views

    12 on the Muslim population in Kiseljak?

    13 A. Yes, we did. In fact, Mr. Stanic always gave

    14 his view on the Muslim population always when we met

    15 him. He had a very extreme view. He stated that he

    16 would like to kill them all if they would take some

    17 tearing (unclear), he wouldn't make prisoners, he would

    18 kill them or nail them on a cross.

    19 Q. Did he speak about these matters in front of

    20 his men?

    21 A. Yes, he did.

    22 Q. Now, did you ever see the men of this HVO

    23 battalion based at Otigosce actually committing any war

    24 crimes?

    25 A. We saw them once, it was near Fojnica, they

  10. 1were burning houses and looting houses.

    2 Q. How far away from them were you when you saw

    3 this taking place?

    4 A. How far away from ...

    5 Q. How far away from these soldiers that you

    6 observed looting, what was the distance?

    7 A. We were close to them and we even spoke to

    8 them.

    9 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown

    10 the first exhibit, which is a map? What exhibit number

    11 is this, Mr. Registrar?

    12 THE REGISTRAR: This is 430.

    13 MR. CAYLEY:

    14 Q. Now, before coming into the courtroom today,

    15 I asked you to mark on a map the position, as best as

    16 you could recall it, of the HVO front-line at Otigosce.

    17 Is that the line that you marked on the map?

    18 A. Yes, it is. It is part -- this one

    19 (indicated). It's part of the front-line of the HVO

    20 battalion.

    21 Q. And you're pointing at the orange sort

    22 of squiggle within the blue square?

    23 A. That's right.

    24 Q. How many times did you visit that front-line;

    25 do you recall?

  11. 1A. Well, we visited twice but we passed it

    2 several times.

    3 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you. Now if the witness

    4 could be shown the next exhibit, which is 431?

    5 Q. Now, Major Meijboom, prior to you testifying

    6 here today, I asked you to draw out for me the command

    7 structure as you understood it in Kiseljak. Is this

    8 the diagram that you drew for me?

    9 A. Yes, it is.

    10 Q. Now, tell me, you have at the bottom

    11 left-hand corner the Otigosce battalion, the 3rd

    12 battalion. How do you know that Branko Stanic was the

    13 commanding officer of that battalion?

    14 A. First of all, because he introduced himself

    15 like that, he was addressed as a commander by his men,

    16 and also from HVO barracks in Kiseljak, we were told

    17 that this battalion was stationed out in Otigosce and

    18 that we could meet the battalion commander, Mr. Stanic,

    19 over there.

    20 Q. Now, tell me, how do you know that Mr. Iv

    21 Kluges was the battalion commander in Cresol, the 2nd

    22 battalion?

    23 A. It's the same story. We met Mr. Kulis, he

    24 introduced him like that, he was addressed like a

    25 commander, also by HVO barracks.

  12. 1Q. If you could explain how you knew that

    2 Mr. Ivica Rajic occupied the three positions that

    3 you've indicated on that diagram, certainly during your

    4 period of service in Bosnia?

    5 A. We had the first meeting with Mr. Rajic and

    6 then he introduced himself as the commander of

    7 operational group, the brigade in Kiseljak, and the 1st

    8 battalion in Kiseljak, and he was also addressed by all

    9 international organisations, including UNPROFOR, as the

    10 commander.

    11 Q. And how do you know that Mr. Blaskic was the

    12 operational zone commander over arching all of these

    13 other units?

    14 A. We know because Mr. Rajic said so. We heard

    15 several times from liaison officer Vinko Lucic, he

    16 spoke about Mr. Blaskic as the commander.

    17 Q. Now, tell me a little bit more about

    18 Mr. Vinko Lucic. Who was he?

    19 A. Vinko Lucic was the liaison officer from HVO

    20 barracks in Kiseljak to all international

    21 organisations.

    22 Q. How regularly did you deal with him?

    23 A. Three to four times a week.

    24 Q. And to whom did he report?

    25 A. To Mr. Rajic, his commander.

  13. 1Q. Now, finally on that diagram you have the

    2 Bobovac brigade under the command of Emil Harah. How

    3 do you know that that unit fell under the command of

    4 Ivica Rajic?

    5 A. Because he told this to us and we met -- in

    6 fact, Vares was not my area, but we met Mr. Harah a

    7 couple of times and he also addressed Mr. Rajic as

    8 being his commander.

    9 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown

    10 Exhibit 85, please?

    11 Q. Do you recognise anybody on that photograph?

    12 A. This is Mr. Lucic, Vinko Lucic, the liaison

    13 officer.

    14 Q. In Kiseljak?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 MR. CAYLEY: And if the witness could be

    17 shown Exhibit 339?

    18 Q. Do you recognise anybody on that photograph?

    19 A. Mr. Rajic (indicated).

    20 Q. Was there ever an occasion when you were with

    21 Vinko Lucic and you wished to see Mr. Rajic and it

    22 wasn't possible to see him?

    23 A. Yes, there were several occasions that we

    24 couldn't talk to him. One of the occasions, he said

    25 Mr. Rajic is not available because he is on the radio

  14. 1with his commander.

    2 Q. Now, if we can move on to Rotilj, and I know

    3 you visited on a large number of occasions, and I don't

    4 wish you to speak about every visit, but if you could

    5 summarise to the court your visits over a seven-month

    6 period and end, I think, with one of the visits which

    7 was most memorable towards the end of November of 1993?

    8 A. Well, as you said, we visited the village

    9 several times, and during these visits, starting in

    10 July, we saw that the population -- or the village got

    11 overcrowded. Originally there were 200 and in the end

    12 there were about 800 inhabitants. When we were there,

    13 this particular situation, some women came to us and

    14 they claimed to be raped. They showed us bruises on

    15 their body to prove this.

    16 Q. What was the condition of the people in

    17 Rotilj by November of 1993?

    18 A. They were in need of all kinds of things. In

    19 fact, there was no organisation that could take --

    20 could care for them, they needed food, medicines,

    21 medical treatment, stoves, blankets. In fact,

    22 everything.

    23 Q. Were these people free to leave the village

    24 of Rotilj?

    25 A. No, they were not. They were kept there.

  15. 1The area was sealed by HVO and civil police.

    2 Q. Did the HVO ever tell you why these people

    3 were kept in the village of Rotilj?

    4 A. The liaison officer of HVO, Mr. Lucic, and

    5 the mayor of Kiseljak, Mr. Boro, Josip Boro, told us

    6 that these people were kept there, in fact, for two

    7 reasons. First reason, for their own safety, and

    8 second reason, to keep there as some kind of a stock

    9 for future exchanges.

    10 Q. Were all of the people in this village of

    11 Rotilj Bosnian Muslims, these 800 people?

    12 A. Yes, they were.

    13 Q. Did you ever see any evidence of looting of

    14 houses and beating of the detainees in Rotilj village?

    15 A. We didn't see it happen, but we saw the

    16 results. We saw houses burned and furniture thrown out

    17 and taken away.

    18 Q. Did you ever have a discussion with Vinko

    19 Lucic about a particular incident of looting and raping

    20 that happened towards the end of November of 1993?

    21 A. Yes, we had. We heard -- I don't recall from

    22 whom -- that something happened in Rotilj, and when we

    23 asked Lucic about it, he said that the matter was under

    24 investigation. It was about one man being killed, one

    25 man wounded, and probably women raped, and it was done

  16. 1by three or four uniformed men.

    2 Q. Did you ever see the results of any

    3 investigation into this matter?

    4 A. No, I didn't.

    5 Q. Would you describe the people in Rotilj as

    6 very frightened when you visited them?

    7 A. Yes, they were. Mostly because they weren't

    8 sure of their lives, they felt like they were being

    9 held in prison and they weren't sure what the future

    10 would bring.

    11 Q. Did you see able-bodied men being taken from

    12 Rotilj village while you were there by the HVO?

    13 A. Yes, we saw that.

    14 Q. If we could now move on to the next part of

    15 your testimony which concerns the involvement of the

    16 Bosnian Serb army in Kiseljak, and if you can summarise

    17 to the Judges your observations in that respect?

    18 A. We heard from people in Canadian battalion

    19 that they saw some tanks T-55s, 15 to 25 of these

    20 things in the area of Gromiljak, it's close to

    21 Kiseljak, and when we went to see ourselves, we saw

    22 five or six of these tanks, T-55.

    23 Q. Were these HVO tanks?

    24 A. No, they were not HVO tanks because HVO

    25 didn't have tanks at that moment in the area.

  17. 1Q. So to whom did these tanks belong?

    2 A. I don't know to whom they belonged at that

    3 moment, but they came from Serb territory.

    4 Q. And what were these tanks actually doing in

    5 the area?

    6 A. They were there to support an offensive in

    7 the direction of Fojnica.

    8 Q. And who was running the offensive in the

    9 direction of Fojnica?

    10 A. A brigade in Kiseljak.

    11 Q. An HVO brigade?

    12 A. HVO brigade, yes.

    13 Q. What did the mayor of Kiseljak tell you about

    14 supplies coming into the municipality of Kiseljak?

    15 A. We asked him about the supplies because

    16 Kiseljak was said to be a pocket and we always saw the

    17 shops full of all kinds of fresh things, so we asked

    18 them how they get the goods in, and he explained that

    19 it came in with convoys coming from Croatia where the

    20 goods were bought with money from a bank account which

    21 was sponsored by foreign Croats, so they could bring in

    22 a convoy if they paid the Serbs enough money to let

    23 them through.

    24 Q. Now, I think in October of 1993, you sought

    25 certain details of the ethnic composition of Kiseljak

  18. 1and Kresevo before the war, and I'd be grateful if you

    2 could tell the Court about that investigation in which

    3 you were involved?

    4 A. We were interested in ethnic population

    5 before war, and so we went to the town halls in

    6 Kiseljak and in Kresevo, and there we got the figures,

    7 and we were mainly interested in the Croat and the

    8 Muslim population. In Kiseljak, they told us in the

    9 town hall that before war the total number of

    10 inhabitants was around 24.000 of which almost 10.000

    11 Muslim. In Kresevo, we did the same, we went to the

    12 town hall and there they told us that before war, there

    13 were around 7.000 inhabitants of which 1500 were Muslim

    14 people.

    15 Q. In October of 1993, did you investigate how

    16 many Muslims were left in Kiseljak and Kresevo?

    17 A. Yes, I did. In Kresevo, there were

    18 approximately 150 kept in a school building, and in

    19 Kiseljak area, there were around 800 kept in Rotilj.

    20 Q. So a large number of Muslims were no longer

    21 living in Kiseljak and Kresevo?

    22 A. That's correct.

    23 Q. Now, you mentioned earlier that there were

    24 800 Muslim people kept in the village in Rotilj. Did

    25 you visit other villages in the Kiseljak area to find

  19. 1the possible presence of Muslim people?

    2 A. Yes, I did. I visited I think almost all the

    3 villages in the area. During my visits, all the

    4 villages, except for Palez, were free of Muslim

    5 population. In Palez there was some left maybe 20, but

    6 during my period, they also moved, whether to Rotilj or

    7 somewhere else, I don't know.

    8 Q. Now if we can move to the attack on the

    9 village of Stupni Do, and I know that you were involved

    10 from an early stage and then you went on leave back to

    11 the Netherlands, but if you could explain to the Judges

    12 the events of the 23rd, 24th, and 25th of October of

    13 1993?

    14 A. Yes. Early in the morning of 23rd, we were

    15 sent to Vares area to investigate on the matter that

    16 should have happened in Stupni Do. We didn't know at

    17 that moment what happened, but we heard rumours that

    18 something happened in Stupni Do, and the head of the

    19 coordination centre didn't think it was safe enough for

    20 one team to go in, so he sent us with V-4 team. We

    21 went there, and we were first stopped by an Armija

    22 checkpoint and they told us it wasn't safe to go in the

    23 area because of fighting that were going on. At this

    24 checkpoint, we heard that there was fighting going on

    25 because of small arms fire and heavy machine-gun fire.

  20. 1The other team leader, Mr. Rolf Weckesser, an officer

    2 in German army, didn't want to go in because he felt it

    3 wasn't safe enough so we went back.

    4 Q. I think on the 24th of October, you actually

    5 decided to return to Vares. Can you tell the Judges

    6 about that?

    7 A. Yes. The next day we tried again. That's

    8 the day we passed the checkpoint of the Armija, then we

    9 entered the HVO checkpoint near the road to Stupni Do.

    10 There we were stopped again and we were not allowed to

    11 go in the direction of Stupni Do because we needed the

    12 permission of the brigade commander. While we were

    13 there, we saw three trucks with soldiers coming back

    14 from the direction of Stupni Do, and Mr. Weckesser, the

    15 other team leader, spoke with the help of his

    16 interpreter with the soldiers, and these soldiers told

    17 him that they had to do a job they didn't like, and

    18 that they had nothing to do with what happened to the

    19 people in Stupni Do.

    20 Q. Now, you say you were stopped on the road to

    21 Stupni Do. By whom were you stopped?

    22 A. By HVO checkpoint.

    23 Q. And which brigade commander were they

    24 referring you to?

    25 A. The brigade commander from Vares, Emil Harah.

  21. 1Q. Now, when Colonel Weckesser had this

    2 conversation with these HVO soldiers, the monitors, I

    3 assume, discussed this amongst themselves. What did

    4 you interpret this to mean, what they had stated to

    5 you?

    6 A. Well, because of the fact that the soldiers

    7 came back from the direction of Stupni Do and we saw

    8 smoke coming from the direction of Stupni Do and the

    9 things they said, we assumed that they had to do some

    10 kind of a cleaning job, so getting rid of dead bodies

    11 and burning things down.

    12 Q. Did you go and see Emil Harah?

    13 A. Yes, we did. We were told by him that we

    14 couldn't enter because of the fact that there was still

    15 fighting going on in the area, so we went back again.

    16 Q. So you returned to Zenica on that day?

    17 A. That's correct.

    18 Q. On the 25th of October, you came back again

    19 to Vares; is that correct?

    20 A. That's correct. That day we were together

    21 with Mr. William Stutt, a Canadian officer, he was the

    22 head of the coordination centre, and we went to Vares

    23 to the sport hotel where the headquarters of the

    24 brigade was to meet Mr. Harah to get permission to go

    25 to Stupni Do, but when we came there it wasn't

  22. 1Mr. Harah who was in command, it was Mr. Rajic who

    2 welcomed us and introduced a new man which we didn't

    3 know before, it was Mr. Bozic, Kresimir Bozic, and he

    4 told us that was the new commander, but this new

    5 commander didn't do any talking. Mr. Rajic told us

    6 that we couldn't go to Stupni Do.

    7 Q. Did you ever get into Stupni Do yourself?

    8 A. No, I didn't.

    9 Q. I think you then went on leave, did you not,

    10 back to the Netherlands?

    11 A. That's correct.

    12 Q. And am I right in saying that you returned to

    13 Kiseljak in the middle of November?

    14 A. Yes, that's correct.

    15 Q. Now, when you came back from leave, did you

    16 discover that the command of the HVO in Kiseljak had

    17 apparently changed?

    18 A. Yes. We were told by Mr. Lucic that Ivica

    19 Rajic was no longer in command and that the commander

    20 was now Mario Bradara, it was his former second in

    21 command, and Mr. Rajic would act as an advisor for the

    22 moment.

    23 Q. Why had Mr. Rajic apparently been removed

    24 from command of the HVO in Kiseljak?

    25 A. Well, there were two reasons. One reason was

  23. 1the affair in Stupni Do, what happened there, because

    2 Rajic was blamed by International Organisations and, in

    3 fact, by everybody about what happened to Stupni Do,

    4 and the other reason was Mr. Rajic's attitude toward

    5 the International Organisations and the fact that he

    6 threatened a UNHCR field officer in Kiseljak.

    7 Q. Stupni Do was a Muslim village, was it not?

    8 A. Yes, it was.

    9 Q. Now, had Mr. Rajic, in fact, been removed

    10 from his command position in Kiseljak?

    11 A. Well, not effectively because he was still

    12 there and he acted as an advisor to his former second

    13 in command, so you could say he was still in command.

    14 Q. Did anybody in ECMM take this removal

    15 seriously of Mr. Rajic?

    16 A. No, nobody did.

    17 MR. CAYLEY: If I could apply for admission

    18 into evidence, Mr. President, of Exhibits 430, 431? I

    19 have no further questions of the witness.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. It's 10.45. We can

    21 begin with the cross-examination. Mr. Hayman?

    22 You are now going to be asked some questions

    23 by Defence counsel.

    24 Cross-examined by Mr. Hayman

    25 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. President. Good

  24. 1morning, Your Honours, good morning, Major.

    2 A. Good morning.

    3 Q. First with respect to your observations at

    4 Otigosce beginning in or about September of 1993. You

    5 said that Branko Stanic was the HVO commander there?

    6 A. That's correct.

    7 Q. What unit or brigade was this? Was this

    8 the -- it's labelled on Exhibit 431 as the Otigosce

    9 battalion. Had it always been based in Otigosce?

    10 A. I don't know where it had been based, but in

    11 my period, it was based in Otigosce.

    12 Q. Well, hadn't it been the HVO unit in Fojnica

    13 prior to establishing a command in Otigosce?

    14 A. I don't know.

    15 Q. Did you author a background report prepared

    16 within the ECMM organisation on or about the 6th of

    17 October, 1993, dealing with the subject of Fojnica?

    18 A. We did prepare a background report, yes,

    19 together with the other team members.

    20 Q. And does that report reflect and is it true

    21 that in Fojnica, the fighting began on the 3rd of July,

    22 1993, by a Muslim first action?

    23 A. I don't know whether that is true because

    24 that's information I didn't confirm myself because I

    25 wasn't there at that moment.

  25. 1MR. HAYMAN: If the usher could assist, we'll

    2 show the witness a copy of his report, and perhaps it

    3 will refresh his recollection.

    4 This report, Mr. President, exists only in

    5 English at this time. Our apologies. It is four pages

    6 in length.

    7 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, if I can make an

    8 observation? This is a witness that was in Bosnia for

    9 nearly seven months, and I have attempted to complete

    10 an examination-in-chief in 30 minutes. Mr. Hayman is

    11 now moving almost immediately into areas that were

    12 simply not covered in my examination-in-chief.

    13 Moreover, he's showing the witness a report to refresh

    14 his memory when the witness has already stated that he

    15 cannot confirm this information because he wasn't there

    16 at this time. It's a pointless exercise that we're

    17 going through and it's outside the scope of the

    18 examination-in-chief.

    19 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President, when a witness

    20 tenders an exhibit identifying a unit in a particular

    21 place and he wrote a report concerning where that unit

    22 actually came from, that unit was attacked by the BH

    23 army, driven out of Fojnica, together with some five to

    24 ten or more thousand Croat refugees. He doesn't

    25 remember; that's fine. I accept that. But he should

  26. 1be able -- he should be allowed, I should be permitted,

    2 to show him his prior report so that the Court can have

    3 accurate information with respect to this unit and this

    4 man, Branko Stanic.

    5 MR. CAYLEY: Now Mr. Hayman is giving

    6 evidence before the court, I see, but ...

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley, it seems possible

    8 to me that the Defence might want to try to respond

    9 within this cross-examination about the command

    10 structure, but I would point out to you, don't regret

    11 having been able to be -- able to synthesise things so

    12 well. You of course have your right in the redirect as

    13 well if you consider that it would be better to go back

    14 and ask further questions. But for the time being,

    15 we're going to ask Mr. Hayman to continue using this

    16 document as part of his cross-examination, and I will

    17 be very attentive to make sure that we do not go beyond

    18 what is permitted within the scope of the

    19 cross-examination.

    20 THE REGISTRAR: This is D453.

    21 MR. HAYMAN: That must be an error,

    22 Mr. President. It was translated as D453, but we don't

    23 have that many Defence exhibits yet. Perhaps the

    24 registrar could restate the exhibit number?

    25 THE REGISTRAR: That was a mistake. It's

  27. 1153. Excuse me.

    2 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. Dubuisson.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: But remain within the scope of

    4 the command structure, Mr. Hayman. All right.

    5 MR. HAYMAN: I will stay within the scope of

    6 the direct examination, with respect to this document,

    7 Mr. President.

    8 Q. First of all, at the end of the report, do

    9 you see your initials?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. You certified that this document was accurate

    12 and authentic at the time that you first tendered it to

    13 the Office of the Prosecutor; correct?

    14 A. Correct.

    15 Q. Now, does this refresh your recollection that

    16 the fighting began in Fojnica on the 3rd of July, 1993,

    17 by a Muslim first action against the HVO unit that was

    18 then resident in Fojnica and was then commanded by

    19 Branko Stanic?

    20 A. Well, it is, as I told you, I didn't witness

    21 it myself. As all the information before my period,

    22 this is a background report, it gives some history of

    23 the area. Because it's history I didn't see or confirm

    24 it myself, this is information, whether from

    25 authorities or from former teams. That's all I can say

  28. 1about it.

    2 Q. Did your colleagues in the ECMM believe it to

    3 be true and that's why they put it in this report?

    4 A. I don't know.

    5 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, the witness has

    6 just stated that is all he can say about this report.

    7 He's made his answer quite clear, and I would ask that

    8 Mr. Hayman move on to another area of questioning.

    9 MR. HAYMAN: It's curious, Mr. President.

    10 The witness has never disavowed ECMM reports on direct

    11 examination by the Prosecutor. I make that

    12 observation. I will continue.

    13 Q. Were you told where Branko Stanic had come

    14 from when he first came to the HVO unit in Fojnica?

    15 A. You mean where he came --

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Continue, Mr. Hayman, but be

    17 brief.

    18 A. You mean where he came from originally or ...

    19 MR. HAYMAN:

    20 Q. Were you told what his prior occupation had

    21 been before coming to the HVO unit in Fojnica, I

    22 believe in approximately January of 1993, or coming to

    23 Fojnica in approximately January of 1993? Were you

    24 told that he had been selling insurance in Vienna for

    25 the prior seven years, Major? Is that what you had

  29. 1been told?

    2 A. I had been told by Branko Stanic himself that

    3 he was a sales -- seller in Austria. I don't know how

    4 he came to Fojnica or anywhere else, but I know he told

    5 me that.

    6 Q. He told you that had been his prior

    7 occupation; correct?

    8 A. Correct.

    9 MR. HAYMAN: One moment.

    10 Q. So is it fair to say, Major, that your

    11 understanding is, again referring to the chart which is

    12 Exhibit 431, that this Otigosce battalion of the HVO is

    13 a unit that left Fojnica after an attack on it by the

    14 BH army and then resettled or relocated in Otigosce; is

    15 that your understanding?

    16 A. No, it's not my understanding because it

    17 happened before I was there and there was constant

    18 fighting going on in the area between Otigosce and

    19 Fojnica and the troops were moving back and forward, so

    20 that's all I know.

    21 Q. Was there an HVO unit in Fojnica at the time

    22 you arrived in the theatre in the middle of July 1993?

    23 A. No, there wasn't.

    24 Q. Now, you described some burning or looting of

    25 houses near Fojnica on one occasion that you

  30. 1witnessed. Do you recall that?

    2 A. Yes, I do.

    3 Q. When was that?

    4 A. It was -- I think it was around October '93.

    5 Q. And when you say outside Fojnica --

    6 A. It was in the direction of Bacovici, it was

    7 close to Bacovici.

    8 Q. Was it near the front-line at the time?

    9 A. Yes, there were some fighting, fighting

    10 going on, and an HVO battalion took some terrain.

    11 Q. Do you know how these houses were ignited?

    12 Were they ignited during fighting, during the take-over

    13 of the terrain? Were they ignited after the fighting?

    14 Do you know?

    15 A. It happened while the fighting was still

    16 going on, some of the soldiers were fighting and other

    17 soldiers were looting and destroying houses.

    18 Q. What were they doing? Destroying houses is a

    19 conclusion. Can you describe what you saw?

    20 A. Yes, I can. They set fire on the houses and

    21 they throw out furniture and things.

    22 Q. And where was the front-line at the time?

    23 A. Maybe -- well, there was no steady front-line

    24 at that time because there was fighting going on, so

    25 the old front-line from HVO was about one kilometre, one

  31. 1and a half kilometre from there.

    2 Q. How many houses did you see being destroyed

    3 or damaged?

    4 A. Four, five, something like that.

    5 Q. Did you report that information within the

    6 ECMM?

    7 A. I don't remember that. Maybe I did.

    8 Q. Are you able to give us a more specific date?

    9 A. No, I'm not.

    10 Q. Now, returning to Exhibit 431. Is it your

    11 testimony that this -- well, strike that.

    12 During what period of time is it your

    13 testimony that Exhibit 431 depicts the organisational

    14 scheme of the relevant portion of the HVO set forth in

    15 this exhibit?

    16 A. The organisation, during my whole time, only

    17 the command structure in the Bobovac brigade changed,

    18 as I told you, before. And I told you also about the

    19 fact that Rajic was -- moved from his command and being

    20 put as an advisor of his former second in command, but

    21 the organisation of the battalions and the brigade

    22 stayed the same.

    23 Q. So the first of those changes occurred on or

    24 about October 25th, 1993, is that right, with respect

    25 to the removal of Mr. Harah?

  32. 1A. That's correct.

    2 Q. So after that point in time, we would have to

    3 start modifying this chart in order for it to

    4 accurately reflect the persons who held the positions

    5 reflected in it; correct?

    6 A. Correct.

    7 Q. Do you know whether the Kiseljak pocket or

    8 enclave, did they have access to Herzegovina and Mostar

    9 through Serb territory? Could that be arranged and was

    10 that possible?

    11 A. Yes, it was.

    12 Q. Do you know whether the Kiseljak enclave or

    13 pocket, did they have access to the Vitez pocket?

    14 A. Yes, they had.

    15 Q. In what way?

    16 A. All kinds of ways. You mean physical

    17 access?

    18 Q. Yes. How could those in the Kiseljak pocket

    19 travel to the Vitez pocket other than under escort by

    20 UNPROFOR or ECMM?

    21 A. Just by using a mountain road.

    22 Q. Tell us about this road.

    23 A. As we did.

    24 Q. Tell us about this road. Where is this road

    25 located?

  33. 1A. It's located in the mountains -- well, there

    2 are several of these roads in the mountains between

    3 Vitez and Kiseljak.

    4 Q. And do they transit BH army territory?

    5 A. They do.

    6 Q. But it was no problem for you to use them; is

    7 that right?

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Remain within the scope of the

    9 direct examination, please, Mr. Hayman. Complete your

    10 question.

    11 MR. HAYMAN:

    12 Q. Now, an organisational chart like this, to

    13 have meaning, presumes that orders are followed;

    14 correct?

    15 A. Of course.

    16 Q. If orders are not followed, then it's not

    17 very meaningful; correct?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Let me ask you. There was an incident

    20 involving the destruction or blowing up of the road

    21 from Visoko to Kiseljak; do you recall that?

    22 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, this is outside

    23 the scope of the examination-in-chief, completely

    24 outside --

    25 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President --

  34. 1MR. CAYLEY: We have left the

    2 examination-in-chief completely now.

    3 MR. HAYMAN: They have given you a chart and

    4 this witness will testify that orders from the top box

    5 to the second box were not followed. That's directly

    6 responsive and relevant to the impression, the

    7 testimony, that this witness is trying to give the

    8 Court, and we must be allowed to present that testimony

    9 to the Court, and I proffer -- he will testify he was

    10 told by the HVO in Kiseljak that Ivica Rajic refused to

    11 follow and would not follow direct orders from Colonel

    12 Blaskic, and I ask to be permitted to present that

    13 testimony.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: After having consulted my

    15 colleagues, Mr. Cayley, you decided to have the witness

    16 speak about the command structure, and Mr. Hayman is

    17 using his arms to continue this discussion.

    18 So Mr. Hayman, go ahead, please.

    19 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. President. I

    20 will attempt to be brief on this line of inquiry.

    21 Q. Major, on or about the 9th of October, 1993,

    22 did you report that the road from Visoko to Kiseljak

    23 had been made impassable by a large crater as a result

    24 of a detonation, and that Ivica Rajic had stated to the

    25 U.N. BH headquarters that he did not want the road

  35. 1repaired?

    2 A. That's correct.

    3 Q. And were you subsequently told, on the 11th

    4 of October, 1993, by Vinko Lucic that Blaskic had given

    5 a direct order to Rajic to repair the road but that

    6 Rajic had replied that the road would stay closed until

    7 the evacuation of wounded from Novi Bila was realised,

    8 despite Blaskic's order to repair it and not to link

    9 the repair to the evacuation of the wounded? Were you

    10 also told that, sir?

    11 A. I was told that by Vinko Lucic, but, in fact,

    12 the road was repaired, so ...

    13 Q. How long later -- how much time later was the

    14 road repaired after you were told Blaskic had given a

    15 direct order on or about the 11th of October, 1993, to

    16 Ivica Rajic to repair the road and Mr. Rajic had

    17 responded he would not? How much later was the road

    18 repaired?

    19 A. I don't know exactly how many days later, but

    20 I would guess, I would say three or four days later.

    21 Q. Perhaps during the break you can review your

    22 reports and see if, in fact, you first reported that

    23 the road was reopened some ten days after the 11th of

    24 October, and I can assist you during the break in

    25 reviewing those reports, if you would be so kind.

  36. 1You were shown Exhibit 85, a photograph which

    2 includes, among others, Vinko Lucic. Perhaps you

    3 should be shown the photo so you have it in mind.

    4 Do you know when this photograph was taken?

    5 A. No, I don't know.

    6 Q. You were shown another photograph, Exhibit

    7 339, which included a depiction of Ivica Rajic on a

    8 podium of some sort. Do you have that photo in mind?

    9 A. Yes, I do.

    10 Q. Do you know when it was taken?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Do you know whether Ivica Rajic received

    13 orders directly from General Petkovic in Mostar?

    14 A. Not as I'm aware of.

    15 Q. Do you know whether General Petkovic visited

    16 the Kiseljak enclave and met directly with Ivica Rajic

    17 during your tour of duty in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    18 A. I heard so, but I didn't witness it.

    19 Q. As a military man, do you think it's more

    20 likely if Rajic and Petkovic were in the Kiseljak

    21 enclave together and Blaskic was in the Vitez enclave

    22 which, according to you, was accessible only by a

    23 mountain road which went through BH army territory, is

    24 it likely that Petkovic would give orders --

    25 MR. CAYLEY: Objection.

  37. 1MR. HAYMAN: Can I finish my question,

    2 please?

    3 MR. CAYLEY: Objection, Mr. President. This

    4 is pure speculation. Mr. Hayman wanders beyond the

    5 scope of the examination-in-chief and, two, he's asking

    6 the witness to give opinion about facts of which he is

    7 not aware. We are now entering the realm of

    8 speculation, and the witness should not be required to

    9 answer questions such as these.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Don't ask for speculation, so

    11 don't speculate, Mr. Hayman. Ask your questions

    12 directly, please.

    13 MR. HAYMAN: I wasn't able to finish my

    14 question.

    15 Q. Can you answer it without speculating?

    16 A. No, I cannot.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: But it was very long. You're

    18 right, Mr. Hayman, ask shorter questions. Go more

    19 directly to where you want to go. Otherwise, the

    20 Prosecution is going to say that you're speculating

    21 when you start with such long introductions. It's

    22 difficult to know where you're going. Ask your

    23 questions directly, please.

    24 MR. HAYMAN:

    25 Q. Now let's turn to the subject of Rotilj

  38. 1village.

    2 During your visits to the village of Rotilj,

    3 were you told that a medical doctor visited the village

    4 on a weekly basis?

    5 A. That's correct.

    6 Q. Were you told, during your visits to Rotilj

    7 village, that foodstuffs and supplies, soap and other

    8 similar personal items, were delivered to the village

    9 on a regular basis by Caritas in Kiseljak?

    10 A. There were some goods delivered in Rotilj,

    11 and not by Caritas, it was delivered by a Muslim

    12 organisation, and it wasn't sufficient.

    13 Q. So your testimony is the only food aid

    14 delivered to Rotilj between July 1993 and January 1994

    15 was delivered by Merhamet, a Muslim aid organisation;

    16 is that your testimony?

    17 A. No, I didn't say that was the only aid they

    18 got because I didn't know that, I only know what they

    19 told me. They told me they had some aid from Merhamet.

    20 MR. HAYMAN: One moment, Mr. President.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, do you still have

    22 many questions, in order to try to organise our

    23 schedule today? Perhaps you would prefer that we would

    24 take our break right away? Then there would be the

    25 redirect possibility from Mr. Cayley and any questions

  39. 1that the Judges might want to ask.

    2 MR. HAYMAN: I do have additional questions.

    3 It's not lengthy, but perhaps 30 minutes.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We're going to take

    5 a break for 20 minutes

    6 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

    7 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: We can now resume the hearing.

    9 Have the accused brought in, please.

    10 (The accused entered court)

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman?

    12 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. President.

    13 Q. Major, during the break, did you have a

    14 chance to review your reports and see when you first

    15 reported that the Kiseljak-Visoko road was repaired?

    16 A. Yes, I saw that.

    17 Q. When did you first report that it had been

    18 repaired?

    19 A. I think it's in my report. It was the 12th,

    20 11th or 12th.

    21 Q. Can you tell us what that report says?

    22 A. I don't know this report by heart.

    23 Q. But your testimony is, on the 12th of

    24 November, you reported that the road was repaired, had

    25 been repaired? Is that your testimony?

  40. 1A. I can make this testimony if I have my report

    2 here so I can read exactly what date because I don't

    3 remember the date.

    4 Q. Do you have it?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. You looked at it during the break. I didn't

    7 show you a copy. Could you be shown what you refreshed

    8 your memory with during the break, please?

    9 MR. CAYLEY: The witness actually looked at

    10 his statement because we couldn't locate the report, so

    11 if Mr. Hayman uses the statement that he made to the

    12 Office of the Prosecutor ...

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Are you using the statement or

    14 are you using the report, Mr. Hayman? We're not going

    15 to spend too much time with the report for the time

    16 being. Which document are you using? Which document

    17 did the witness take a look at?

    18 MR. HAYMAN: He says he looked at his

    19 statement. Mr. Cayley has indicated he looked at his

    20 statement. The report and the statement say the same

    21 thing, Mr. President.

    22 Q. Let me read to you a section of your

    23 statement, Major, and ask you if this is what you're

    24 referring to. Page 4 of your statement to the Office

    25 of the Tribunal Prosecutor.

  41. 1JUDGE JORDA: Go slowly, Mr. Hayman, please,

    2 for the interpreters.

    3 MR. HAYMAN: Yes, Mr. President.

    4 Q. "On 12 October, 1993, I had another meeting

    5 with Vinko Lucic. He told me that Ivica Rajic stated

    6 that the Visoko-Kiseljak road would stay closed until

    7 the evacuation of the wounded of the Novi Bila hospital

    8 was realised, although Colonel Blaskic gave a direct

    9 order to Ivica Rajic to repair and open the road

    10 immediately and not to connect it with the evacuation

    11 of the Novi Bila hospital."

    12 Are you referring to that statement?

    13 A. I'm not referring to any statement. I'm just

    14 listening to you.

    15 Q. Yes. You said you referred to your statement

    16 and your statement indicated that by the 11th or 12th

    17 of October, 1993, the road was open. I'm reading you a

    18 portion of your statement which indicates that, on the

    19 12th of October, you were told that Ivica Rajic had

    20 said, in substance, "The road is not being opened, and

    21 I don't care that Colonel Blaskic gave me an order to

    22 open it," and not to link it with any other issue.

    23 Those two are inconsistent. So I'm asking you, is

    24 there some other portion of your testimony upon which

    25 you rely with respect to your testimony that the road

  42. 1was open by the 11th or 12th of October, 1993?

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Let's not make the questions

    3 too complicated, Mr. Hayman. Things are becoming very

    4 complicated. You read part of the statement to the

    5 witness and asked him whether he confirms that. That's

    6 a clear question. Your last sentence is really very

    7 ambiguous; it's got several connotations.

    8 Let me turn to the Major. You have just been

    9 quoted a passage from your statement. Do you confirm

    10 it, "Yes" or "No"? That's all.

    11 A. Sorry, but I got your -- I didn't get your

    12 translation, but I understood what you were asking me

    13 in French.

    14 Part of the declaration that he read, about

    15 what Mr. Vinko Lucic told me, is true.

    16 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President, I found the next

    17 relevant --

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Continue, please.

    19 MR. HAYMAN:

    20 Q. And on the next page, page 5, you state in

    21 your statement that on the 20th of October, which is

    22 eight days after the 12th and nine days after the 11th,

    23 when you first learned that Blaskic had ordered Rajic

    24 to reopen the road, on the 20th of October, "I saw that

    25 the road was repaired." Is that correct?

  43. 1A. That's true, yes.

    2 Q. Had you seen that the road was repaired prior

    3 to the 20th of October when you reported it?

    4 A. No, I didn't see that.

    5 Q. Thank you.

    6 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we have no

    7 Croatian translation. It's a big problem for our

    8 client, from the beginning.

    9 MR. HAYMAN: The microphones are coming on by

    10 themselves, which may be related to the problem. Our

    11 microphones, since the break, have been coming on and

    12 off spontaneously. Mine off, and my colleague and my

    13 client's on.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Oh, all right. Well, if we

    15 have got to start everything all over again, that's

    16 going to be complicated. You should have said

    17 something earlier. You should have told us earlier.

    18 I think that we're going to take a

    19 five-minute break in order to fix the problem. Very

    20 well. It will be better to do that then. All right.

    21 We're going to suspend the hearing for a moment.

    22 --- Recess taken at 11.43 a.m.

    23 --- On resuming at 12.15 p.m.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: I don't know why I keep finding

    25 myself on another channel here.

  44. 1Registrar, do you guarantee to us now that

    2 everything is going to operate perfectly?

    3 THE REGISTRAR: No, I cannot guarantee that.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Well, maybe we'll have some

    5 luck.

    6 All right. Things seem to be fixed.

    7 Mr. Hayman?

    8 MR. HAYMAN: Yes, Mr. President. I don't

    9 think it's necessary to repeat any of the final

    10 dialogue. We will ensure that it's translated

    11 appropriately for our client, and he waives any right

    12 to have it repeated.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. All right, General

    14 Blaskic, do you agree with that? Is that all right,

    15 General Blaskic?

    16 MR. HAYMAN: His microphone is not working.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, Mr. Blaskic says "I

    18 agree," but I can't say that --

    19 THE ACCUSED: Your Honour, I've understood

    20 the question.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: That is a perfect example of a

    22 conference between client and counsel.

    23 All right. Continue, please.

    24 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. President.

    25 Q. Returning for a moment to Exhibit 431, Major,

  45. 1which we would like to see if we can have it provided

    2 to you. My question to you is: In the Dutch army,

    3 would you have the same commander at three different

    4 levels of command in the way that Ivica Rajic here

    5 occupies positions at three different levels of

    6 command? Would that happen on a permanent basis in the

    7 Dutch army, if you know?

    8 A. It is possible, yes.

    9 Q. On a permanent basis?

    10 A. Well, it is possible. I don't know whether

    11 it happens at the moment right now, but it is possible.

    12 Q. When would that be done in the Dutch army?

    13 A. Normally when there is a lack of officers

    14 from a certain category or of a certain knowledge.

    15 Q. Now let's return to Rotilj, the village.

    16 During your leave of absence on approximately the 31st

    17 of October, 1993, did ECMM officers report that Caritas

    18 was making regular deliveries of aid to the village of

    19 Rotilj?

    20 A. It's correct that I was on leave at that

    21 time, and my team member did report that, yes.

    22 Q. Do you know whether the same aid, on a

    23 per-capita basis, was given to the inhabitants of

    24 Rotilj as was given to other Croat inhabitants of the

    25 Kiseljak municipality by Caritas?

  46. 1A. I don't know myself whether there was aid

    2 given by Caritas to the people in Rotilj because it's

    3 something someone else reported.

    4 Q. So you don't know anything about the quantity

    5 or parity and distribution; is that right?

    6 A. That's right.

    7 Q. During the summer and fall of 1993, were

    8 there approximately 15.000 refugees in the Kiseljak

    9 municipality?

    10 A. At most. I think it is somewhere around

    11 12.000.

    12 Q. Did those displaced persons include armed

    13 persons, including soldiers of the HVO, who had

    14 previously been in Travnik, Kakanj, and Vares?

    15 A. It was just the whole population in Kiseljak,

    16 yes.

    17 Q. Including armed populations or soldiers from

    18 those three other locations; correct?

    19 A. Which other locations are you referring to?

    20 Q. Travnik, Kakanj, and Vares.

    21 A. I don't know whether they had been there

    22 before, but it's just the population that was in the

    23 Kiseljak pocket at that time, and there were people

    24 from all over, from everywhere, so ...

    25 Q. And did that include soldiers that had

  47. 1withdrawn or retreated from other locations, Croat

    2 soldiers?

    3 A. It included the soldiers who were in Kiseljak

    4 pocket.

    5 Q. Let me ask you: Can you tell the court, were

    6 the Muslim inhabitants of Rotilj, in your judgement,

    7 were they safer inside the village of Rotilj than they

    8 would have been if they had been living outside the

    9 village in some other location in the Kiseljak

    10 municipality?

    11 A. They weren't safe in any place, so I don't

    12 think you can speak of safe or less safe. People died

    13 in Rotilj, people were killed in Rotilj, so they

    14 weren't safe anywhere.

    15 Q. So you're not able to make a comparison; is

    16 that correct?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Now, you said the Muslim inhabitants were not

    19 free to leave Rotilj. How is it they were kept captive

    20 in Rotilj? By what means? Patrols? Fences? How were

    21 they kept captive in this village?

    22 A. The roads were closed by civilian police and

    23 military checkpoints. They were patrolled, and there

    24 was a regular visit of military and civil police and

    25 also normal military people in the village.

  48. 1Q. How many checkpoints were there?

    2 A. On the road from Kiseljak to Rotilj, one.

    3 Q. Were there any other checkpoints around the

    4 village, that is, on any roads -- roads and tracks

    5 running in and out of the village? On the other sides

    6 of the village, were there any other checkpoints?

    7 A. It wasn't able to enter the village from the

    8 other side by car, so I don't know.

    9 Q. And it's your testimony that no one could

    10 walk out of the village because there were constant HVO

    11 patrols around the village? Is that your testimony?

    12 A. Well, they could walk out of the village if

    13 they didn't take the road. They would be able to go

    14 out of the village.

    15 Q. They would be able to go out of the village?

    16 A. Yes, and then they were in the other part of

    17 the Kiseljak pocket.

    18 Q. Do you know whether Muslim inhabitants of

    19 Rotilj ever went into Kiseljak, went into town to

    20 conduct business?

    21 A. Sometimes some of them were given permission

    22 to visit a doctor or something in Kiseljak.

    23 Q. So on those occasions, they would actually

    24 pass out through the main checkpoint; is that right?

    25 A. That's correct.

  49. 1Q. Were there any Croat inhabitants of Rotilj

    2 during this time?

    3 A. Not that I know of.

    4 Q. Now, you said that you heard statements that

    5 persons were being kept in Rotilj for exchanges. Who

    6 told you that? Was that Josip Boro, the mayor?

    7 A. Yes, and Vinko Lucic, the liaison officer

    8 from HVO as well.

    9 Q. Who made any such exchanges? Who organised

    10 any such exchanges?

    11 A. There was an exchange committee in Kiseljak,

    12 it consisted of several people, and they dealt with the

    13 exchanges.

    14 Q. Were those exchanges of persons who asked to

    15 be exchanged?

    16 A. Not only -- no.

    17 Q. So your testimony is there were people who

    18 were forcibly exchanged who didn't want to be

    19 exchanged; is that right?

    20 A. That's also true because some of these

    21 people, they were exchanged to areas where they didn't

    22 want to go.

    23 Q. Are you saying they wanted to be exchanged

    24 but maybe not to Visoko and they went to Visoko, or

    25 they didn't want to be exchanged at all?

  50. 1A. Well, in fact, it has nothing to do with

    2 exchange, it has to do with the fact that people were

    3 not safe there and they wanted to leave, so with or

    4 without exchange, they just wanted to leave the

    5 Kiseljak pocket.

    6 Q. So the people who were exchanged were people

    7 who wanted to leave the Kiseljak pocket; is that right?

    8 A. That's right.

    9 Q. Now, you said there were claims of forcible

    10 rape made to you from one or more residents of Rotilj.

    11 Do you know whether statements were taken from such

    12 persons or were they ever examined by a physician?

    13 A. I don't know of that, no.

    14 Q. You also related a conversation with Vinko

    15 Lucic in November of '93 when he said there was an

    16 investigation ongoing of some incident in Rotilj that

    17 had caused the death of, I believe, one person. Were

    18 you given the facts concerning that incident? What

    19 happened? Who were the perpetrators?

    20 A. He only told us that these were three or four

    21 men in uniform. That's all.

    22 Q. You had no other facts concerning whether

    23 they were drunk, whether they were from another area

    24 who had been displaced, et cetera?

    25 A. No, nothing.

  51. 1Q. You described the ethnic mix of Kiseljak and

    2 Kresevo before the war and at some point during your

    3 tour, and there are dramatic reductions in the Muslim

    4 population of those two municipalities, according to

    5 these statistics.

    6 Can you tell the court, of the individuals

    7 who apparently left those municipalities, how many of

    8 them left before the conflict broke out in those

    9 municipalities in 1993?

    10 A. I don't know when they left or died or

    11 whatever. I don't know.

    12 Q. Do you know how many of them left when the BH

    13 army pulled out or was defeated and retreated from

    14 those villages in the Kiseljak enclave in which there

    15 was a BH army presence?

    16 A. Which villages are you referring to that BiH

    17 army would have retreated from?

    18 Q. Well, for example, in the village of

    19 Gomionica, when there was a battle that went on for

    20 some weeks between BH army units and the HVO. Do you

    21 know, did any of the civilian population pull out as

    22 the BH army withdrew from its positions, or do you not

    23 know?

    24 A. It was not during my stay in Bosnia so ...

    25 Q. So you don't know; is that correct?

  52. 1A. That's correct.

    2 Q. You told us that on or about the 25th of

    3 October, 1993, Emil Harah was replaced as the commander

    4 of the Bobovac brigade in Vares, a brigade depicted on

    5 Exhibit 431. Were you told who had ordered the removal

    6 of Emil Harah as brigade commander?

    7 A. No, I wasn't told. I was just told by Rajic

    8 that Harah was removed.

    9 Q. Several days after this event, were you

    10 informed that Rajic had been removed by order of Mate

    11 Boban? Did you gain that information in any form?

    12 A. No, I didn't.

    13 MR. HAYMAN: If the usher could assist,

    14 please? Mr. President, Defence Exhibit 154 and the

    15 French translation 154A is a daily report of the ECMM,

    16 co-authored by this witness, and I would ask that it be

    17 placed before him.

    18 THE REGISTRAR: This is D154 and D154A for

    19 the translation.

    20 MR. HAYMAN:

    21 Q. First of all, Major, is this a daily report

    22 co-authored by you and an ECMM colleague dated November

    23 11, 1993?

    24 A. You asked the question to me?

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Major, you were asked a

  53. 1question. If you don't mind, when you answer, please

    2 look at the Judges. All right? Thank you.

    3 Yes, Mr. Hayman asked you a question, if you

    4 would be able to identify or to recognise this

    5 document. Take your time.

    6 A. Yes. It is an ECMM document, and my name is

    7 under it, but I wasn't there at the time. I was on

    8 leave. It is just a block in the computer, why my

    9 name's there.

    10 MR. HAYMAN:

    11 Q. And in this report -- I apologise,

    12 Mr. President. My microphone goes off periodically,

    13 but I don't think it's a problem. I simply can turn it

    14 back on.

    15 In this report in paragraph 1(b) --

    16 JUDGE JORDA: I can assure you that it's not

    17 the President that's having an effect on your

    18 microphone.

    19 MR. HAYMAN:

    20 Q. In this report, is there, in paragraph 1(b),

    21 can you add anything based on conversations with your

    22 ECMM colleagues or otherwise to the statement as

    23 follows. This is the fifth bullet point under

    24 paragraph 1(b): "The big rumour in the streets of

    25 Kiseljak is that Ivica Rajic, commander HVO Kiseljak,

  54. 1is not in command anymore, and for the time being

    2 replaced by General Petkovic. The Croatian Press

    3 stated that Rajic is sacked of his duties by order from

    4 the Office of the President of the Croatian Republic

    5 Herceg-Bosna, Mate Boban, due to heavy condition of

    6 defence of territory in Central Bosnia and co-relations

    7 with UNHCR and UNPROFOR and the course of

    8 investigations on responsibilities."

    9 Major, can you add anything to that report?

    10 A. Only that it's not something I reported, that

    11 it is, as it says, a rumour in the streets, and

    12 something about the Press. So I cannot add anything.

    13 Q. Let me ask you if you have anything to add to

    14 the passage at paragraph 7 of this same report on the

    15 next page, which is a comment. First, let me add,

    16 comments are the views of the author; is that what it

    17 means in ECMM format, to have a comment?

    18 A. That's correct.

    19 Q. The comment reads as follows: "It is still

    20 not clear what is going on in the Kiseljak area, but

    21 the situation is tense. CANBAT advised everybody to be

    22 escorted when moving into Kiseljak (this is a little

    23 overdone). It seems that Rajic has been replaced

    24 because of his attitude towards UNHCR last week. This

    25 can cause another internal problem in Kiseljak since

  55. 1Rajic has a sort of a private army."

    2 Do you have anything to add to that

    3 statement, Major?

    4 A. No. It's not my statement.

    5 Q. Do you agree with it or do you disagree with

    6 it?

    7 MR. CAYLEY: Objection.

    8 A. I don't know.

    9 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, defence counsel

    10 is asking the witness, first of all, to comment on a

    11 statement that he didn't even make, and then he's

    12 asking him whether he agrees with it. He simply can't

    13 be asked to give evidence in this fashion.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Objection sustained, especially

    15 since the witness said that he didn't write it and that

    16 his name is there only because of the computer. I

    17 think that the witness has already answered,

    18 Mr. Hayman. Please move to another question.

    19 MR. HAYMAN:

    20 Q. You described learning of threats made to, I

    21 believe, UNHCR by Ivica Rajic. Can you describe those

    22 threats in any more detail?

    23 A. We heard from Vinko Lucic, liaison officer,

    24 that Rajic had threatened a UNHCR officer; and from

    25 UNHCR, I don't remember which person from UNHCR, we

  56. 1heard that a field officer was threatened with his life

    2 by Rajic.

    3 Q. Was Ivica Rajic what you would term an

    4 aggressive individual?

    5 A. Well, he didn't look really aggressive, no.

    6 Q. Now, you were asked whether you ever saw a

    7 report of investigation into Stupni Do. Is it correct

    8 that on the 22nd of November, 1993, you met that day,

    9 in the headquarters of the HVO in Kiseljak, an HVO

    10 security officer from Mostar named Ivan Bandic who told

    11 you that he was investigating the matter of Stupni Do

    12 and, in general, all the matters where HVO soldiers

    13 were involved with war crimes. Is that correct?

    14 A. That is correct.

    15 Q. Did you understand Mr. Bandic to be part of

    16 the security service apparently headquartered or based

    17 in Mostar?

    18 A. He just told us that he was from the

    19 headquarters and that he was a security officer. I

    20 don't know where he belonged to.

    21 Q. Did you understand him to report then to

    22 entities in Mostar not depicted on Exhibit 431?

    23 A. He didn't tell us whom he reported to.

    24 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President, I offer into

    25 evidence Exhibits D153, D154, and D154A.

  57. 1MR. CAYLEY: I'm going to object to both of

    2 those documents. First of all, D153 is a document

    3 which the witness stated that he didn't recognise.

    4 Secondly, D154 is a document which the witness stated

    5 was not authored by him; he cannot recognise any of the

    6 comments in the document. He simply can't authenticate

    7 any of these documents, so they should not be admitted

    8 into evidence.

    9 MR. HAYMAN: Then I'll proceed to ask the

    10 witness. I hadn't rested -- completed my questions,

    11 and I'd ask that the two exhibits be placed before the

    12 witness, D153 and D154.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. Continue, Mr. Hayman.

    14 MR. HAYMAN:

    15 Q. Turning your attention, Major, to Exhibit

    16 D153, the background report concerning Fojnica. First

    17 of all, on the last page of that report, do you

    18 recognise your initials?

    19 A. Yes, I do.

    20 Q. And, in fact, did you place your initials on

    21 that document on or about the 6th of -- excuse me, the

    22 12th of June, 1996, when you tendered a copy of this

    23 report to a representative of the Office of the

    24 Prosecutor?

    25 A. That's correct.

  58. 1Q. Did you take this report from your own

    2 personal archives and records pertaining to your

    3 service in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    4 A. That's correct.

    5 Q. Is it an accurate and authentic copy of a

    6 report that was, in fact, generated by the ECMM at the

    7 time?

    8 A. It is.

    9 Q. Now let me ask you to turn your attention to

    10 Exhibit D154. That is the two-page Monitor Team Daily

    11 Report dated November 11, 1993, and let me ask you:

    12 First of all, do you recognise the initials in the

    13 lower left-hand corner of the first page as those of

    14 Mr. Stutt who was, at the time, the chief of the

    15 regional centre Zenica for the ECMM?

    16 A. I don't recognise his initials. He was HCC.

    17 Q. "HCC"?

    18 A. "Head of the Coordination Centre."

    19 Q. Do you recognise the -- first of all, do you

    20 know who Lars Jensen is?

    21 A. Yes. He was a Danish monitor in ECMM.

    22 Q. Did he serve on the V-3 team with you?

    23 A. No, he didn't. Maybe he went a couple of

    24 days with me, but he served together with Carstensen.

    25 Q. Do you know when you were absent, apparently

  59. 1due to leave, was he assigned during that period of

    2 time to the V-3 team?

    3 A. Yes, it's possible.

    4 Q. Are you able to tell the court that this

    5 report is, in fact, an ECMM report? Can you tell the

    6 court that? Can you confirm that to the court?

    7 A. Yes, I can.

    8 MR. HAYMAN: I offer both exhibits,

    9 Mr. President.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Both documents are admitted.

    11 MR. HAYMAN: I have concluded my

    12 examination. Thank you, Mr. President, and thank you,

    13 Major.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. I think that

    15 Mr. Cayley wants to exercise his right of redirect.

    16 MR. CAYLEY: I do. Thank you,

    17 Mr. President.

    18 Re-examined by Mr. Cayley:

    19 Q. Now, you were asked a number of questions in

    20 your cross-examination on matters that were not

    21 referred to in your examination-in-chief, and I'd like

    22 to develop that with you.

    23 You were asked specifically a question about

    24 access between the Kiseljak pocket and the Vitez

    25 pocket, and you mentioned that there were a number of

  60. 1mountain roads that could be taken between these two

    2 pockets. Can you tell the Judges about those mountain

    3 roads?

    4 A. Well, there isn't much to tell about these

    5 roads. They were just mountain roads which we could

    6 use to go to an area of Kiseljak or Fojnica. It was

    7 partly through BiH territory. But sometimes we didn't

    8 see any soldiers. The roads were not closed; there

    9 were no checkpoints. There's nothing much to say

    10 about.

    11 Q. And that linked Vitez and Kiseljak?

    12 A. Yes, possible.

    13 Q. And there were no large formations of Bosnian

    14 soldiers, no military fortifications on these roads?

    15 A. No, not on the roads, no.

    16 Q. Now, you were asked a number of questions

    17 about the road between Kiseljak and Visoko that was

    18 damaged around about the 9th of October of 1993. How

    19 big was that hole in the road?

    20 A. Somewhere between 10 and 15 metres wide and,

    21 I think, 4 to 5 metres deep.

    22 Q. That's a big hole, isn't it, in the ground?

    23 A. Well, yeah. Well, just part of the road was

    24 gone and it slid into the river.

    25 Q. And you were informed that on or about the

  61. 112th of October of 1993, Colonel Blaskic ordered

    2 Mr. Rajic to fix the road.

    3 A. Yes, that was the -- Vinko Lucic told us.

    4 Q. And you actually used that road on the 20th

    5 of October of 1993?

    6 A. That's correct.

    7 Q. And the hole had been filled in?

    8 A. That's correct.

    9 Q. So is it fair to say that that road was

    10 repaired some time before the 20th of October of 1993?

    11 A. I don't know exactly when it was finished,

    12 but, of course, they had to start before the 20th, yes.

    13 Q. That's a big job, isn't it, to do, between

    14 the 12th of October and the 20th of October of 1993?

    15 A. It was a big hole.

    16 Q. Faster than the repair of Dutch roadworks?

    17 A. Well, they tend to take their time, but I

    18 cannot compare that.

    19 Q. Now, you were asked a number of questions

    20 about the Muslims in the village of Rotilj, and I think

    21 you stated that the Muslims in Rotilj were not safe in

    22 any place, and then my learned friend Mr. Hayman added

    23 some commentary, and he said you weren't able to make a

    24 comparison.

    25 Now, can you state for the transcript what

  62. 1you mean by the fact that Muslims in Kiseljak were not

    2 safe anywhere?

    3 A. Well, I mean that they weren't safe -- they

    4 didn't feel secure. They were afraid of harassment and

    5 injuries, so ...

    6 Q. People were really frightened in Rotilj

    7 village, weren't they?

    8 A. Yes, they were.

    9 MR. CAYLEY: I don't have any further

    10 questions, Mr. President.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Cayley.

    12 Judge Riad?

    13 JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Major Meijboom.

    14 A. Good morning, sir.

    15 JUDGE RIAD: I just have a few

    16 clarifications. You mentioned that, when you visited

    17 the front-line, "I had heard Stanic announcing that all

    18 Muslims should be killed," and even nailed, as you

    19 said, even nailed to a cross and so on.

    20 Would this be a very personal view, or do you

    21 think he is reflecting the view of the HVO?

    22 A. It was his view which he stated every time

    23 when we met him.

    24 JUDGE RIAD: Was it implemented, you think,

    25 the implementation followed his view?

  63. 1A. By his soldiers, you mean?

    2 JUDGE RIAD: Yes.

    3 A. I didn't see anything of these results, so I

    4 don't know.

    5 JUDGE RIAD: So you don't know. Then, in

    6 Rotilj, you had women who claimed to be raped.

    7 A. That's correct.

    8 JUDGE RIAD: Was there any complaint of that

    9 and was it presented to the authorities?

    10 A. Yes, it was. I know it was also under

    11 investigation of U.N. Civ. Po., United Nations Civil

    12 Police, but I don't know anything of the results of

    13 that investigation.

    14 JUDGE RIAD: But who was supposed to take the

    15 matter in hand? Was it the HVO or the United Nations

    16 police?

    17 A. Well, in fact, it should have been done by

    18 the police in Kiseljak because it's a civil crime, I

    19 think, but it was done together with United Nations

    20 civil police.

    21 JUDGE RIAD: Was there any result?

    22 A. Not that I'm aware of.

    23 JUDGE RIAD: No punishment?

    24 A. No, I don't know.

    25 JUDGE RIAD: You don't know. And then

  64. 1concerning the attack on Stupni Do, you saw trucks,

    2 three trucks coming from Stupni Do with soldiers whom

    3 you heard complaining that they had a dirty job.

    4 A. Correct.

    5 JUDGE RIAD: Could you describe more what you

    6 heard? What did they do?

    7 A. No, I don't know what they did. It's just

    8 what they told to the other team leader and he

    9 transferred it to me.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: But they said it to the other

    11 team leader?

    12 A. They said that -- they didn't go into detail,

    13 they just said they had to do a job they didn't like

    14 and that they had nothing to do with what happened the

    15 day before or two days before in Stupni Do.

    16 JUDGE RIAD: So it was vague. There was no

    17 indication of the kind of job they did.

    18 A. No, they weren't specific.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: Weren't specific. They said

    20 that they didn't like it.

    21 A. Yes.

    22 JUDGE RIAD: Did you hear that more often,

    23 that a few soldiers didn't like what they were doing?

    24 A. No.

    25 JUDGE RIAD: They liked it?

  65. 1A. No, I don't know. They didn't tell me.

    2 JUDGE RIAD: Now, concerning the removal of

    3 Rajic. Of course, this -- if you are in a position to

    4 tell me. Do you think removal of such an important

    5 officer in the army should come from the top, or can

    6 the commander remove his subordinates?

    7 A. Yes, the commander can remove his

    8 subordinates.

    9 JUDGE RIAD: But he was not removed -- was he

    10 removed by Colonel Blaskic or by Petkovic?

    11 A. I don't know.

    12 JUDGE RIAD: You don't know that. But you

    13 heard that Rajic received orders directly from

    14 Petkovic?

    15 A. No.

    16 JUDGE RIAD: No?

    17 A. No.

    18 JUDGE RIAD: He did not. And you

    19 mentioned -- I gather that he would sometimes be

    20 reluctant to execute the orders of Colonel Blaskic. He

    21 would not execute them immediately.

    22 A. Well, if you refer to the repair of the road.

    23 JUDGE RIAD: Yes.

    24 A. It happened, but it didn't happen

    25 immediately, that's correct.

  66. 1JUDGE RIAD: But he executed them --

    2 A. Yes.

    3 JUDGE RIAD: -- all the same?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 JUDGE RIAD: But otherwise, he would execute

    6 the orders. He did not --

    7 A. Well, I don't know what kind of orders

    8 Mr. Rajic got from his commander, so I can't know which

    9 orders he followed or he didn't.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: The one concerning the road, you

    11 knew about it?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 JUDGE RIAD: That he took some time to

    14 execute it?

    15 A. That's correct.

    16 JUDGE RIAD: But he could not continue

    17 refusing?

    18 A. That's correct.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: So being in the area, could you

    20 say that the authority of Colonel Blaskic was not

    21 disputed?

    22 A. No, I can't say it. What do you mean?

    23 JUDGE RIAD: He was the commander.

    24 A. Yeah.

    25 JUDGE RIAD: And he had the authority in

  67. 1hand.

    2 A. Yes, I think so, yes.

    3 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Judge Shahabuddeen

    5 has no questions, nor do I.

    6 Major, the Tribunal thanks you for having

    7 come to testify at the request of the Prosecutor.

    8 Registrar, could we have the witness

    9 accompanied out of the courtroom, please?

    10 (The witness withdrew)

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley -- I don't know

    12 whether Mr. Harmon or Mr. Cayley. How do you want to

    13 use this afternoon?

    14 MR. CAYLEY: We don't have any further

    15 witnesses to proceed with, Mr. President, but my

    16 learned friend, Mr. Harmon, has some evidence that he

    17 does wish to offer to the court at this point. It can

    18 probably be done before lunch. It's not going to take

    19 very long.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Right now, you mean? About how

    21 long do we need for that?

    22 MR. CAYLEY: Five minutes, Mr. President.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Five minutes. Well, I think

    24 the interpreters could grant us the five minutes. Very

    25 well. Thank you so much.

  68. 1Mr. Harmon, for the presentation of some

    2 additional evidence. At your own initiative.

    3 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President, and

    4 counsel.

    5 Mr. President, we would tender an exhibit to

    6 the Trial Chamber, and I will explain what this exhibit

    7 is as soon as it is distributed. If I could have the

    8 assistance of the usher, please?

    9 THE REGISTRAR: This is 432.

    10 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we tender this

    11 exhibit in respect of evidence that was led about the

    12 shelling in Zenica. As the Trial Chamber may recall,

    13 there was testimony from an investigating judge who

    14 investigated the events around the Zenica shelling.

    15 There were a number of photographs showing the effect

    16 of the Zenica shelling, including bodies of those

    17 victims who died as a result.

    18 The Trial Chamber asked us at one point

    19 during the course of the presentation of that evidence

    20 whether there was any proof connecting the shelling to

    21 the deaths of the individuals who were depicted in the

    22 photograph. We have secured from Dr. Faruk Turkic, who

    23 is a specialist in pathology and a previous witness who

    24 testified before Your Honours, a statement that reports

    25 on the connection between the bodies that were visible

  69. 1in the photographs and their cause of death. So this

    2 is to augment the testimony and the evidence in respect

    3 of the Zenica shelling, and we offer it accordingly.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. No comments from

    5 Mr. Hayman?

    6 MR. HAYMAN: We have no objections other than

    7 those previously stated, Mr. President.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: I understand the nuance that

    9 you're making. It is admitted subject to the previous

    10 comments. I think that Mr. Harmon merely wanted to

    11 show in this document that -- it is called -- this is

    12 the report further to the 13 people killed at the front

    13 of the Zenica store on the 13th of April.

    14 Very well. We're going to adjourn now until

    15 the 13th of July, Monday, 13th of July, at 2.30. Thank

    16 you very much.

    17 --- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at

    18 12.55 p.m., to be reconvened on

    19 Monday, the 13th day of July, 1998,

    20 at 2.30 p.m.