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  1. 1 Friday, 9th October 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 --- Upon commencing at 9.50 a.m.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated and have the

    5 accused brought in.

    6 (The accused entered court)

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Registrar, has someone gone to

    8 get the witness?

    9 (The witness entered court)

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Good morning to the

    11 interpreters. Does everybody hear me? General, do you

    12 hear?

    13 A. Yes, Mr. President, I can hear you.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe.

    15 MR. KEHOE: Thank you, Mr. President. We

    16 will move through this document quickly, Mr.

    17 President. I don't think that on the 498 document,

    18 that we were discussing yesterday, we will submit the

    19 exhibits that we have tabbed there with our chart for

    20 the Court's review, and that being the receipt that is

    21 in tab number 1 on 498, as well as, the orders that are

    22 listed in this binder from tab 2 through 11, and their

    23 corresponding Defence numbers.

    24 The ones provided by Mr. Primorac have no

    25 numbers, the ones introduced by the Defence do, in

  2. 1 fact, have numbers. We direct the Court's attention to

    2 tab 12, which is the letter of Mr. Blewitt, the Deputy

    3 Prosecutor, to Mr. Primorac asking for the source of

    4 these documents, and for the originals. Mr. Primorac

    5 responded in document 13 in that response to

    6 Mr. Blewitt. He reflected that he received these

    7 documents from an individual by the name of Jure Brkic

    8 and that he never possessed the originals.

    9 Tab 14, Mr. President, is the establishment

    10 by the Narodni Lists or the official Gazette of the

    11 Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna to establish the war

    12 archive. Tab 15 is the decision appointing a director

    13 of the war archive by the name of Stjepan Ivankovic and

    14 tab 16 is the appointment of Mr. Jure Brkic as the

    15 deputy director of the war archive, that is the person

    16 from whom Major General Primorac says he got these

    17 documents.

    18 Now, if I may, Mr. President, as the Court

    19 knows in the issue of binding orders by this Court, a

    20 binding order was issued by this Court and I would

    21 like, at this point, to address my attention and the

    22 attention of the witness to two particular documents

    23 and/or orders that have been issued by the federation

    24 in the Ministry of Defence pursuant to this Court's

    25 orders. And if I may take those in series.

  3. 1 JUDGE JORDA: What order are you talking

    2 about Mr. Kehoe?

    3 MR. KEHOE: I'm about to give it to the

    4 usher, Mr. President.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Ordinarily orders are covered

    6 by either ex parte or by closed sessions. Do you want

    7 this to still be a public session.

    8 MR. KEHOE: I have no objection one way or

    9 the other Mr. President.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: If you have no objection, we

    11 can remain in public hearing.

    12 MR. KEHOE: Let me consult with my colleagues

    13 on this point, but I don't think there is any

    14 objection.

    15 MR. HAYMAN: We would just like to get a

    16 question to the witness, Mr. President. We have been

    17 in session now for five minutes, we haven't had a

    18 question put to the witness yet.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Just wait a minute Mr. Hayman.

    20 You know that in this Tribunal everybody takes his

    21 time. You were the first to do so, in fact, when the

    22 witness answers the Prosecution's questions. But, I

    23 will ensure that the questions are asked. Have faith

    24 in me.

    25 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Mr. President, and if I

  4. 1 can.

    2 INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

    3 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Mr. President, and if I

    4 may give these particular documents, the first one,

    5 which is dated the 28th of February, 1997, signed by

    6 Mr. Ante Jelavic and there are English and BCS copies.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: These are documents that you

    8 are giving to the witness in order to cross-examine

    9 him --

    10 MR. KEHOE: That's correct.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: -- or you simply want to open a

    12 discussion. Very well. All right, you see,

    13 Mr. Hayman, the questions will be asked.

    14 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, this discussion

    15 of the binding order is absolutely outside of the scope

    16 of these proceedings, but I trust that you will reach

    17 the right decision on it.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: We have to wait to see what

    19 kind of questions are going to be asked in order to

    20 decide whether what you said is right. The witness,

    21 thanks to you, in the first place, covered so many

    22 issues, that are at the very core of this trial, that

    23 you cannot limit the cross-examination, although I am

    24 watching to hear what is being asked. Let's wait for

    25 the questions.

  5. 1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 499, 499A for the

    2 English version.

    3 MR. KEHOE:

    4 Q. Brigadier, I will give you a moment to review

    5 that document, sir. We are talking about the document

    6 signed by Mr. Jelavic on the 28th of February, 1997?

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Could I have a translation,

    8 please?

    9 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, this particular

    10 document has not been translated yet into --

    11 JUDGE JORDA: No, I understand. I'm not

    12 trying to interrupt things. I would like you to read

    13 it quickly so the interpreters can interpret it, and I

    14 don't lose any of the meanings. I see, generally, what

    15 it's about, but I would prefer to have it read so I can

    16 understand all nuances. Why don't you begin with

    17 pursuant to articles 27. Don't read the heading.

    18 MR. KEHOE: Yes, sir.

    19 "Pursuant to articles 27 and 28 of the law on

    20 defence of the BH Federation, official Gazette of the

    21 BH Federation, issue 1596, in order to provide, and in

    22 order to provide complete protection of the records and

    23 archives, I hereby order that:

    24 1. The commanders of the Operative Zones

    25 subordinate units, administrations and institutions of

  6. 1 the HVO to gather and catalogue all available archives

    2 pertaining to the war for the homeland in their zone of

    3 responsibility. Prior shall be given to the period

    4 between 1 April, 1992 and 1 January, 1994.

    5 2. The gathered material shall be urgently

    6 forwarded to the Croatian Defence Council offices in

    7 Mostar by 15 March, 1997.

    8 3. The commanders mentioned under paragraph

    9 1 of this order shall be responsible to me for the

    10 execution of this order. Copies going to the HVO

    11 command, HVO Operative Zones, all HVO subordinate

    12 units, all HVO administrations, all, and files, and it

    13 is signed by the Defence minister, Ante Jelavic."

    14 Now, my question, Brigadier, with regard to

    15 this document was, did you ever see this document

    16 before?

    17 A. I do not remember such a document, but as far

    18 as I can recall, I believe that this is the signature

    19 of the Defence minister, Mr. Jelavic.

    20 Q. Brigadier, what position did you hold on the

    21 28th of February, 1997?

    22 A. On 28 February, 1997, I was on duty in

    23 Tomislavgrad as chief of staff, and in this period for

    24 which the documents are sought, the period between 1

    25 April, 1992 and 1 January, 1994, I was on duty in

  7. 1 Vitez.

    2 Q. This particular order, and to whom it's

    3 directed, would cover the command in which you were

    4 working in Tomislavgrad on the 28th of February, 1997;

    5 would it not?

    6 A. Yes, yes. This order was central commands

    7 and I was in the command in Tomislavgrad, yes.

    8 Q. Did you ever hear about this order, sir?

    9 A. Regarding this order and the tasks that it

    10 sets out, in Tomislavgrad command, I have not, I did

    11 not hear of it, and I never saw it, even though I was

    12 on such a post that the commander would have had to

    13 notify me of it, because here it is clear that the

    14 document is going directly to all the commanders.

    15 Q. Let me, Brigadier, turn your attention to

    16 another document with the assistance of the usher.

    17 THE REGISTRAR: This is 500, 500A for the

    18 English version.

    19 MR. KEHOE:

    20 Q. Brigadier, if you could review that document

    21 for us, Exhibit 500.

    22 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, with your

    23 permission I will read this document again, starting

    24 with the date of 4 March, 1997 and again starting

    25 pursuant to article 27 and 28.

  8. 1 Q. The date is 4 March, 1997, "Pursuant to

    2 articles 27 and 28 of the law on defence of the BH

    3 Federation, citing the Official Gazette, and in order

    4 to provide complete protection of the records and

    5 archives, I hereby order that:

    6 1. You protect against damage, destruction,

    7 removal and relocation all archives gathered, as

    8 stipulated in the order reference number 01-112/97 of

    9 28 February, 1997.

    10 2. The commanders of Operative Zones,

    11 subordinate units, administrations and institutions of

    12 the HVO shall be responsible to me for the execution of

    13 the task under paragraph 1 of this order. Copies: HVO

    14 command, HVO operative zones, all; HVO subordinate

    15 units, all; HVO administrations, all; and files."

    16 Again, signed by the Defence minister, Ante

    17 Jelavic.

    18 Brigadier, again, that is Mr. Jelavic's

    19 signature?

    20 A. This signature is identical to the signature

    21 on the other order, and I think I said as far as I know

    22 that this is the signature of Mr. Ante Jelavic.

    23 MR. KEHOE: For the record, Mr. President,

    24 the reference number of 01-112/97 is the number in the

    25 prior order, Exhibit 499.

  9. 1 MR. KEHOE:

    2 Q. Again, Brigadier, you were in the

    3 Tomislavgrad headquarters on the 4th of March, 1997?

    4 A. Yes, I was in command in Tomislavgrad. Let

    5 me repeat, the documents which have been produced, that

    6 is, the time frame within which these were produced, I

    7 was not in the command of Tomislavgrad, I was in the

    8 command in Vitez in the pertinent time period.

    9 I am just trying to understand why I am not

    10 aware of these documents. It could be that this is why

    11 I did not learn of them, because these documents may

    12 have been produced at a time when I was not present at

    13 the command.

    14 Q. Well, sir, you, in the command, would have

    15 been covered by the copies, and your command would have

    16 received a copy of this order; isn't that correct?

    17 A. Yes, but from the first document, you can see

    18 that it was addressed to the commanders, and it was

    19 specifically addressed to all the commanders.

    20 So, the commander who was there in

    21 Tomislavgrad, if he had received this document, he

    22 acted accordingly, to the best understanding of what he

    23 was supposed to do.

    24 During that period, during the time frame

    25 which is referred to in the document, I was not present

  10. 1 there; so, maybe that was the reason why I was not

    2 included, I was not let known of this document.

    3 Q. Brigadier, this exhibit, this order on the

    4 4th of March, 1997, have you ever seen this before?

    5 A. As far as I recall, I have not seen this

    6 document, either. Because this document is linked to

    7 the previous document. So, had I seen the previous

    8 document, or had I seen this document, I would have

    9 looked up the previous document, as well.

    10 Q. Would it be accurate to say that you haven't

    11 heard about it, either?

    12 A. I have not heard of the document, per se, but

    13 I did see, in the command, that there was some work

    14 done, some archival work; that is, the officers who

    15 were in charge of the archives. I'm aware of the fact

    16 that certain things were classified.

    17 Now, what was being done, how it was

    18 classified, that, I don't know, because I was not

    19 working at the Tomislavgrad command. Had I been in

    20 Vitez, then obviously I would have been involved and I

    21 would have known what was done, because I worked with

    22 all these documents while I was in Vitez.

    23 Q. Well, Brigadier, when you saw these people

    24 gathering archival material in the Tomislavgrad

    25 headquarters, did you ask them what they were doing and

  11. 1 why?

    2 A. Let me be accurate. These were not people.

    3 There is an office, general services, and this is what

    4 is being done there on a regular basis. It wasn't

    5 something extraordinary. There were certain premises

    6 where these documents, all the documents which were

    7 produced there, was being stored and put in archive.

    8 It wasn't a special type of activity that was involved

    9 in classifying and archiving it.

    10 Q. So, what you observed was people in the

    11 headquarters going about their normal course of

    12 business; is that right?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 MR. KEHOE: Just for clarity sake, Mr.

    15 President, so we can distinguish between these two

    16 sets, the documents received in 499 and 500, the two we

    17 just discussed, those were the documents that were

    18 issued subsequent to the binding order or subpoena

    19 litigation. I just want to clarify that.

    20 In 498, the documents with the orders were

    21 documents received by the Office of the Prosecutor in a

    22 request for assistance by the Office of the Prosecutor.

    23 So, just for the clarity of the record, and any

    24 inaccuracies, I just wanted to segregate those two

    25 aspects of these documents. I will move on to another

  12. 1 subject. Excuse me a moment.

    2 I have just one further clarification: On

    3 these two orders, 500 and 499, Mr. Harmon informs me

    4 that they were issued pursuant to the subpoena and not

    5 the binding order litigation. So, it was pursuant to

    6 the subpoena. So, to be perfectly clear as to where

    7 these documents follow-up in the sequence of the

    8 litigation --

    9 JUDGE JORDA: What's the date?

    10 MR. KEHOE: The date of these two orders?

    11 JUDGE JORDA: No, the order. What was the

    12 date of the order you're talking about, so I can

    13 remember what you're talking about.

    14 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Mr. President, consult

    15 with Mr. Harmon.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Yes, the subpoena

    17 was the one from Judge McDonald; is that correct?

    18 MR. KEHOE: That's correct, Mr. President.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: So, it was January of 1997; is

    20 that right?

    21 MR. KEHOE: It was actually, the specific

    22 date, Mr. President, is the 28th of February, 1997.

    23 I'm sorry, the date of the subpoena is the 17th of

    24 January, 1997.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, it was January.

  13. 1 MR. KEHOE: Yes, it was.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: It seemed to me it was January.

    3 All right, January, 17 January, 1997. So, that was

    4 further to the -- the order is further to the -- from

    5 the Appeals Chamber, about five months later; is that

    6 right?

    7 MR. KEHOE: Mr. Harmon informs me that it was

    8 before that. Mr. Harmon conducted this litigation, if

    9 you want further explanation.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: No, I don't need any further

    11 explanation about that. All right, perhaps after these

    12 clarifications, perhaps we could go back to substantive

    13 questions.

    14 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President, we are.

    15 MR. KEHOE:

    16 Q. Brigadier, before we move into a new subject,

    17 which we will do shortly, I just want to recall you

    18 back to an exhibit we discussed yesterday. And if I

    19 could show that you exhibit again, which is 456/65.

    20 MR. KEHOE: Just move that down a little bit,

    21 Mr. Usher.

    22 Q. Brigadier, this is the order that we

    23 discussed yesterday concerning Ivica Bagaric, and you

    24 said that Mr. Bagaric had no troops, soldiers under his

    25 command; is that right?

  14. 1 A. Yes. Mr. Ivica Bagaric, while acting as

    2 chief of the anti-air defences, did not have a

    3 commanding function. That position is not a commanding

    4 function, it is an expert position, just as when I was

    5 head of the operations and training department. I

    6 didn't have a command function.

    7 Q. Well, let me show you a document, sir.

    8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 501, 501A for the

    9 English version.

    10 MR. KEHOE:

    11 Q. Brigadier, is that Colonel Blaskic's

    12 signature, or someone signing on his behalf?

    13 A. This is, as far as I can recognise, a

    14 document signed by the Chief of Staff of the

    15 headquarters, Franjo Nakic, on behalf of Colonel

    16 Blaskic.

    17 Q. Is that the stamp of the Central Bosnian

    18 Operative Zone?

    19 A. Yes, this is the stamp of the Central Bosnian

    20 Operative Zone.

    21 Q. Let's read it quickly. 9th of January, 1993

    22 at 10.45, and the subject is anti-aircraft defence

    23 units. "Attention: The Travnik Brigade. The chief of

    24 anti-aircraft defence, the commander of the 4th

    25 anti-aircraft defence, light artillery missile

  15. 1 division. Order:

    2 All anti-aircraft defence weaponry on the

    3 Travnik defence line, including the 4th anti-aircraft

    4 defence light artillery missile division, 3rd platoon

    5 of the first battery, shall join the anti-aircraft

    6 defence units that form the HVO Brigade of the Central

    7 Bosnian Operative Zone, anti-aircraft defence, light

    8 artillery missile platoon and the anti-aircraft defence

    9 platoon of the manoeuvring battalion.

    10 2. Mr. Ivica Bagaric, chief of the

    11 anti-aircraft defence brigade, shall select and train

    12 troops on the weaponry that are at the brigade's

    13 disposal."

    14 Do you see that, sir?

    15 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, it is because of

    16 the translation that I'm standing up. Point 2 has been

    17 misinterpreted. Ivica Bagaric is not chief of the

    18 anti-aircraft brigade, but he is chief of anti-aircraft

    19 defence. Ivica Bagaric is not a commander of a unit,

    20 but a chief of anti-aircraft defence. It is an error

    21 in the translation of point 2.

    22 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I'm reading the

    23 translation that was given to us by the translation

    24 section. I don't pretend to read -- and if the

    25 interpreters can read it, if it can be put on the ELMO.

  16. 1 JUDGE JORDA: The interpreters give us a

    2 translation Mr. Nobilo. Reread point 2 and we will ask

    3 our interpreters to be very careful as to what they are

    4 going to tell us, as they do always, but especially on

    5 this occasion. Oh, slowly, point 2, Mr. Ivica Bagaric.

    6 MR. NOBILO: Thank you. "The chief of

    7 anti-aircraft Defence of the brigade, Mr. Ivica

    8 Bagaric, shall select and train troops on the weaponry

    9 that are at the brigade's disposal." For the sake of

    10 clarification, reference is to the Travnik brigade, as

    11 can be seen from the whole text.

    12 MR. KEHOE: If I may, Mr. President?

    13 JUDGE JORDA: In other words, if I understand

    14 you well, for the Prosecution, he is the chief of the

    15 anti-air defence brigade, and for the defence, he is

    16 head of the anti-aircraft defences at the level of the

    17 brigade. So this seems to me rather semantic. I must

    18 say I don't quite understand the distinction, but

    19 perhaps you could explain it to us, or maybe the

    20 witness could.

    21 As far as I'm concerned, if you are head of

    22 the anti-air defence at the level of the brigade, you

    23 do have command responsibilities. Perhaps it would be

    24 better to say chief of the anti-air defence brigade.

    25 But please continue.

  17. 1 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if I may make a

    2 suggestion. Not one of us is a soldier, but the

    3 witness is. Perhaps we could ask him because there are

    4 some abbreviations here that are not translated. The

    5 4th LTRDPZO, that can be the key to everything so we

    6 avoid any guesswork.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Before putting the question to

    8 the witness, I should like to hear the opinion of the

    9 Prosecutor regarding the translation that was given to

    10 us. We asked our interpreters for their expertise, so,

    11 Mr. Prosecutor, what do you think of it? And then we

    12 can go on to the question.

    13 MR. KEHOE: I think the accurate thing to do,

    14 Mr. President, is give the translation to the

    15 translation section, put it on the ELMO and have them

    16 translate it. I don't speak the language, Mr.

    17 President, and this is the interpretation that was

    18 provided upon submission of this document.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: I think that perhaps, after

    20 all, this is not the most important thing. We must

    21 focus on what we are trying to see. The Prosecution is

    22 trying to show, I think, that Ivica Bagaric had troops

    23 under his orders whether he was chief of the

    24 anti-aircraft defence brigade or chief of the

    25 anti-aircraft defence at the level of the brigade. I

  18. 1 would like to ask the Brigadier, according to this

    2 text, was Mr. Ivica Bagaric, should Mr. Ivica Bagaric,

    3 according to this order, select and train troops under

    4 his responsibility? What is your feeling, Brigadier?

    5 Will you please answer my question?

    6 A. Mr. President, Ivica Bagaric was not in

    7 command of units. As chief of anti-air defences, chief

    8 of anti-air defences within a command, he is the most

    9 qualified person who should watch over the situation

    10 regarding units of the anti-air defences. So, between

    11 Ivica Bagaric and the anti-air defence units, there are

    12 commanders.

    13 These units are part of a brigade, like a

    14 battalion. The commanding role, or function, in every

    15 command, is in the hands of the commander only. All

    16 the others are associates, they make suggestions,

    17 express their opinions and pass expert decisions, but

    18 they cannot give orders.

    19 Therefore, Ivica Bagaric could never write an

    20 order and say "I hereby order." In the area of air

    21 defences, he could prepare a document, but the order

    22 will be issued by the commander. Why? Because that

    23 order is addressed to subordinate commanders, that is

    24 commanders of anti-air defence units. But he is an

    25 expert, he will go to the command and assist, but he

  19. 1 cannot give orders to those soldiers.

    2 MR. KEHOE: Well, Brigadier, you would agree

    3 with me that the order says that individuals shall join

    4 the anti-aircraft defence that form the HVO brigade;

    5 does it say that in the first paragraph?

    6 A. Mr. President, let me try to explain the

    7 first paragraph word-by-word, if I may.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, but try and go a little

    9 more quickly, otherwise we will still be here in a

    10 month's time asking you questions about the brigade.

    11 But I remember that we had a chart, and under the

    12 orders of the accused there was an anti-air brigade.

    13 As far as I remember, Ivica Bagaric was mentioned, and

    14 he was at the same level at the other brigades. I

    15 would like this polemics to end rather quickly and the

    16 Judges will judge.

    17 Mr. Nobilo first, and then your comments, and

    18 then we will close this discussion; because otherwise

    19 we will never get out of it. Mr. Nobilo, quickly,

    20 please.

    21 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I quite agree

    22 with you that this is not decisive for this case, but

    23 in this way our witness is trying to be impeached. But

    24 let us give the witness the chance to explain himself

    25 fully, because we wouldn't like his credibility to be

  20. 1 called in question. As it has been opened to scrutiny,

    2 please let him explain himself.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: But, Mr. Nobilo, the Brigadier

    4 is here before us. There is no need for -- he doesn't

    5 need your help. He's big enough to defend himself.

    6 So, if you need to comment on this, Brigadier, please

    7 do, but quickly.

    8 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, when we are

    9 dealing with anti-air defence units in the Operative

    10 Zone Central Bosnia command, you noticed very well, Mr.

    11 President, that the commander of the Operative Zone had

    12 under his command a unit called the 4th LTRD, and it

    13 had its commander. It had its commander.

    14 Because of needs on the defence lines, all

    15 the weaponry from the brigades and from the 4th

    16 anti-aircraft defence light artillery missile division

    17 had to be collected together. As we're talking about

    18 the area of the Travnik Brigade, the qualified person

    19 for selecting those weapons is the chief of anti-air

    20 defences, Mr. Ivica Bagaric.

    21 In the command of the Operative Zone we also

    22 had a chief of anti-air defences, but we also had a

    23 commander. The same applies to the Travnik Brigade.

    24 In the brigade command, in addition to the commander,

    25 there are 15 other persons.

  21. 1 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, we have more or less

    2 understood. One last question and then move forward,

    3 please, Mr. Prosecutor.

    4 MR. KEHOE:

    5 Q. One last question on this, Brigadier. In

    6 addition to this, according to paragraph 2, there was

    7 training of these troops being done also; correct?

    8 A. The anti-air defence weaponry, because of

    9 their importance and use, training was carried out, so

    10 as to react as quickly as possible should the need

    11 arise for the personnel to be able to use these

    12 weapons. Because what else would they be doing except

    13 training for the use of these weapons, so, there was

    14 training.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: We are going to go to another

    16 question. Let me summarise. Mr. Bagaric officially

    17 did not have troops under his command, but in view of

    18 this order, which is not challenged, he had the duty to

    19 select and train troops. The Court will judge on that

    20 basis. Please move forward, Mr. Kehoe.

    21 MR. KEHOE:

    22 Q. Brigadier, let's move to another section.

    23 You were asked some questions by Defence, my learned

    24 colleague, Mr. Nobilo, concerning the causes of the

    25 conflict between the Bosnian Muslims and the Bosnian

  22. 1 Croats, and we're certainly not going to read

    2 everything that you stated at that point, which runs

    3 from page 12.240 to 12.245; but I would like to ask you

    4 a couple of follow-up questions about some of what you

    5 said and some of the documents that were introduced by

    6 the Defence. I would like to talk to you preliminarily

    7 about Defence Exhibit 199.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: It was the first Defence

    9 exhibit, Mr. Kehoe, wasn't it?

    10 MR. KEHOE: I think either the first or

    11 second.

    12 JUDGE JORDA: I just hope you won't have

    13 questions regarding all the exhibits that are going to

    14 come after this one.

    15 MR. KEHOE: No.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Fine, thank you.

    17 MR. KEHOE:

    18 Q. Do you see that document, Brigadier?

    19 A. I do.

    20 Q. You identified that document, and you

    21 discussed that document, and you pointed to number 1 in

    22 that document that was talking about the crisis

    23 headquarters being renamed the HVO command; isn't that

    24 right?

    25 A. Yes, I identified this document by

  23. 1 recognising General Blaskic's signature. It is clear,

    2 that at the time, General Blaskic was a commander in

    3 Kiseljak. In point one, the crisis headquarters is

    4 renamed the municipal command. Yes, that is the

    5 transformation. It is the first step towards

    6 reorganisation. It was first called a crisis

    7 headquarters, and then after a certain amount of time

    8 these municipal commands were established. So, that's

    9 quite clear.

    10 Q. Brigadier, you said that the setting up of

    11 the municipal headquarters, the municipal HVO command,

    12 was one of the steps that Blaskic took in trying to

    13 organise the HVO; didn't you say that?

    14 A. That is not quite what I said, because it

    15 wasn't possible under those conditions. I'll explain

    16 why.

    17 At the time General Blaskic was on duty in a

    18 municipality in May 1992, and the organisation of the

    19 municipal command followed the chain of command,

    20 probably it was called the main headquarters at the

    21 level of the HVO at the time.

    22 Q. Well, sir, you would agree with me, based on

    23 what you said in direct, that this was an effort by

    24 Blaskic to organise the HVO in Kiseljak. Didn't you

    25 say that?

  24. 1 A. It is visible from this document that General

    2 Blaskic sought to establish the HVO in Kiseljak. I

    3 wish to draw attention to the heading of this document.

    4 It says that it came from a higher level.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: But today is Friday, let us

    6 make an effort to speed up the debate. I apologise for

    7 reminding you of this.

    8 Mr. Kehoe, when you show a document in the

    9 cross-examination to the witness, I would like to ask

    10 you to go directly to your question. We are not going

    11 to repeat all that has been confirmed by the witness.

    12 If that is being challenged, yes, then you can ask

    13 whether it was signed by Blaskic or not.

    14 This was a Defence exhibit. If you have one

    15 or two or three questions to put regarding this

    16 exhibit, please do so; because you know very well that

    17 the witness is very eloquent and he has many things to

    18 say, he is going to explain, going into a great deal of

    19 detail.

    20 After all, I am responsible for the

    21 scheduling and the work and the progress of this

    22 hearing. If there is something that is being

    23 contradicted, go to it immediately; if not, proceed to

    24 the next document.

    25 MR. KEHOE: I appreciate your point, Mr.

  25. 1 President, and I will move as quickly as I possibly

    2 can.

    3 I would like the Brigadier to take a look at

    4 a series of documents, Prosecutor's documents, that are

    5 numbered 314, 315, 316, and 317, in series. If I can

    6 ask the Brigadier to keep Exhibit 199 with him.

    7 MR. KEHOE:

    8 Q. Brigadier, the first document is Exhibit 314,

    9 and it is signed by Josip Boro, the chairman of the

    10 crisis committee, and dated the 23rd of April, 1992.

    11 It says -- in Kiseljak -- it says, "On the basis of

    12 article 7 of the Kiseljak municipality statute," and it

    13 gives the number, "at its meeting held on the 23rd of

    14 April, 1992, the municipal crisis staff passed the

    15 following decision:

    16 The HVO headquarters for the area of Kiseljak

    17 municipality shall be formed. This decision comes into

    18 effect on the day of its proclamation."

    19 Exhibit 315, another document, very brief,

    20 signed by Mr. Josip Boro four days later, and it

    21 says: "Pursuant to the record, the hand over and

    22 acceptance of the barracks signed by the commander of

    23 the barracks, Ljuban Kosovac, and the chairman of the

    24 municipal crisis staff, Josip Boro, at its meeting on

    25 the 27th of April, 1997, the municipal crisis committee

  26. 1 passed the following decision:

    2 The barracks in the Kiseljak municipality are

    3 handed over to be used and managed by the HVO

    4 headquarters of the Kiseljak municipality. This

    5 decision comes into effect on the day of its issue."

    6 I apologise for the dates going back, but

    7 this is the series that it went in, 316, another order

    8 on April the 24th, again by Mr. Boro, that appoints a

    9 commission for the building of the inventory list of

    10 weapons in the Kiseljak barracks, five individuals,

    11 both Muslims and Croats with the accused, Mr. Blaskic,

    12 on the list.

    13 The last in the series, on the 17th, there is

    14 a distribution, an agreement to distribute the weapons

    15 on a national representation. "The earlier distributed

    16 arms will be compensated by the commission mentioned

    17 earlier."

    18 Now the next document we have is the document

    19 that you talked about previously on the 10th of May,

    20 wherein Colonel Blaskic renames, or the crisis

    21 headquarters is renamed the municipal HVO staff.

    22 Let me show you a document that was issued

    23 the next day, the 11th May, 1992, and signed by the

    24 accused.

    25 THE REGISTRAR: This is 502 and 502A for the

  27. 1 English version.

    2 MR. KEHOE:

    3 Q. Take a look at that document, Brigadier, and

    4 my first question: Is that the accused's signature on

    5 the bottom of the page?

    6 A. I believe that this is the signature of the

    7 accused.

    8 Q. Let's read this document very briefly.

    9 Again, it's the 11th of May, 1992, the day after the

    10 document you said was setting up the HVO municipal

    11 headquarters in Kiseljak.

    12 "On the basis of the orders received from the

    13 main headquarters," and it gives a number of 10 April,

    14 1992 and 8 May, 1992, "and with the intention of

    15 defining precisely the legal status of all formations,

    16 I am issuing the following order:

    17 1. The only legal military units in the area

    18 of Kiseljak municipality are HVO units.

    19 2. All other military units in the mentioned

    20 area must join the unified defence system and recognise

    21 the municipal HVO command as their main command.

    22 3. Each member of the above mentioned

    23 military units is obliged to wear the HVO insignia,

    24 coat of arms on the cap, linen HVO sign on the left

    25 sleeve.

  28. 1 4. I forbid the establishment of private

    2 military units. Persons who do not obey this order or

    3 do not carry it out ... and it's illegible ... and the

    4 established formation militarily destroyed.

    5 5. By this order, all orders of the

    6 Territorial Defence are rendered invalid and the

    7 Territorial Defence in this area considered illegal.

    8 All troops are to be formed into ranks and the deadline

    9 to form them into ranks is the 11th."

    10 This order, it clearly reflects that the only

    11 legal military units in the Kiseljak area is the HVO

    12 and the Territorial Defence is now an illegal entity;

    13 isn't that right?

    14 A. Yes, you can see that from the order.

    15 However, you can see that this document was drafted on

    16 the basis of the, another order by the main

    17 headquarters of the HVO. I was not in Kiseljak at that

    18 time. I do not know the circumstances under which this

    19 document was drafted, so I cannot speak to anything

    20 that is set out in this document.

    21 But I can say that it was drafted on the

    22 basis of another document, and I can refer you to the

    23 number and the date here.

    24 Q. Well, Brigadier, you discussed with us your

    25 Defence Exhibit 199, which was issued one day before,

  29. 1 and you explained what that document was, and I'm

    2 showing you a document one day after that, and my

    3 question for you is: Was the HVO taking over in the

    4 Kiseljak municipality?

    5 A. I do not know whether the HVO had taken over

    6 Kiseljak. That was 11 May. This is the time when I

    7 was working in the defence office in Novi Travnik.

    8 There may be other things which may indicate what has

    9 transpired here, but I'm not aware of it.

    10 Q. Let me show you a photograph that is

    11 photograph 80/7.

    12 MR. KEHOE: If we could put that on the ELMO,

    13 Mr. Usher, and if we could push the ELMO closer to the

    14 Brigadier. Mr. Usher, the all too valuable chopstick

    15 is at your disposal.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: This one?

    17 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

    18 THE REGISTRAR: It's 9.

    19 MR. KEHOE:

    20 Q. Now, taking a look at 80/9, you, of course,

    21 recognise Colonel Blaskic in that photograph; do you

    22 not?

    23 A. Yes, I do recognise him.

    24 Q. Do you see a man by the name of Dario Kordic

    25 in that photograph?

  30. 1 A. Yes, I do recognise Mr. Kordic.

    2 Q. Could you take the pointer and point to him?

    3 A. I believe that this is Mr. Kordic.

    4 Q. Okay. Now, I would like you to take a look

    5 at the Prosecutor's Exhibit 208 at this point.

    6 MR. KEHOE: Keep that handy, please. You

    7 don't have to necessarily leave it there.

    8 MR. KEHOE:

    9 Q. Now, take a look at this document, Brigadier,

    10 and we can put that on the ELMO. This is a document

    11 that is received in evidence, signed by Mr. Kordic, and

    12 pardon my pronunciation, Ivo Brnada.

    13 Before we talk about this document, did

    14 Mr. Kordic visit the Hotel Vitez while you were working

    15 there?

    16 A. Mr. Kordic, in fact, I saw Mr. Kordic in the

    17 Hotel Vitez in 1992 at Christmas when there was a

    18 reception at the command. This was on Christmas Eve

    19 when Mr. Blaskic organised a party to celebrate

    20 Christmas. There were UNPROFOR representatives there,

    21 and I believe there were also the BH representatives

    22 there, and this was the first time that I saw

    23 Mr. Blaskic at the Operative Zone command. This was in

    24 the Vitez Hotel.

    25 Q. I'm sorry, you said Mr. Blaskic, I think you

  31. 1 mean Mr. Kordic.

    2 A. That is when I first saw Mr. Kordic in the

    3 Operative Zone command. This was a celebration, a

    4 reception at Christmas. I attended it, there were

    5 political representatives present, representatives of

    6 UNPROFOR; and I am not sure about the BH army

    7 representatives, but I believe that they may have

    8 attended, too.

    9 Q. How often did you see him in the Hotel Vitez

    10 after that?

    11 A. I did not see Mr. Kordic very frequently in

    12 the Vitez Hotel. I have no information that he was a

    13 frequent visitor there. Let me just take you back to

    14 the word "frequently." To me frequent would mean once

    15 a week, once every ten days; so if I say he was not a

    16 frequent visitor, this is what I have in mind, 10, 15,

    17 20 days.

    18 As far as I know, Mr. Kordic had his office

    19 in Busovaca, and I never was in his office.

    20 Q. Well, you would agree with me, Brigadier,

    21 that the photograph, 80/9 we just had on the ELMO, is a

    22 shot, that is a photograph, that is taken outside of

    23 the Hotel Vitez.

    24 A. I will attempt to analyse this structure. I

    25 cannot say that this is in front of the Hotel Vitez.

  32. 1 Q. Okay, sir. Let's move on. How frequently

    2 did Blaskic appear in press conferences with Dario

    3 Kordic?

    4 A. As far as I know, that is as far as I can

    5 recall, the press conferences were introduced at a time

    6 when we were completely surrounded, when we were

    7 completely isolated, and we did not have media outlets,

    8 radio, we did not have access to the Bosnian state

    9 television. The situation in the enclave where we

    10 lived was so complex, so difficult, that General

    11 Blaskic, Mr. Kordic as a politician, and I know that

    12 Mr. Ignac Kostroman also appeared at these press

    13 conferences; so, they would appear and they would

    14 answer questions by journalists regarding the issues

    15 which were then topical.

    16 Let me just give you an illustration of how

    17 difficult the situation was. I took the list of those

    18 killed in the Vitez municipality, and on average, about

    19 60 people were dying in Vitez, and about 65 were

    20 injured or wounded. So that was the situation.

    21 Without the media and proper way of communication, I

    22 think, this is why the press conferences were

    23 instituted; and these were public events, so anybody

    24 could come and attend or have access to it.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, since this morning

  33. 1 is long, perhaps we will take a 15 minute break.

    2 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

    3 --- On resuming at 11.24 a.m.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: We will now resume the

    5 hearing. Have the accused brought in, please.

    6 (The accused entered court)

    7 MR. KEHOE: May I proceed, Mr. President?

    8 Q. Brigadier, the question I asked you before

    9 the break was how often these press conferences were,

    10 and let me make it simple. These press conferences

    11 were weekly, weren't they?

    12 A. I cannot confirm that, but I believe, yes.

    13 Q. Now, let's take a look at photograph as well

    14 as the document 208, which is -- this is Prosecutor's

    15 208, which is dated the same day as Defence 199, a

    16 document that you identified.

    17 Does the witness have photograph as well as

    18 the document 208?

    19 Now, Brigadier, this is a document in

    20 evidence, and you are certainly welcome to review it.

    21 This discusses, in the preparatory language, "In

    22 connection with the brutal armed attack by the

    23 so-called Busovaca Territorial Defence led by Dervis

    24 Sarajalic."

    25 In any event, let's look at some of the

  34. 1 orders, and this is executed by Mr. Kordic and

    2 Mr. Brnada, and the order is:

    3 "1. The agreement between the HVO and the

    4 so-called Busovaca Territorial Defence on the

    5 distribution of weapons is hereby terminated, and it

    6 has been decided that the Busovaca HVO forces take over

    7 all weapons, equipment, material, as well as the

    8 barracks.

    9 "2. The town of Busovaca is to be completely

    10 blocked from all sides.

    11 "3. All paramilitary formations, the

    12 so-called Territorial Defence, individuals, and others

    13 are given the ultimatum to hand over all weapons in

    14 their possession by Sunday, 1200 hours, or place them

    15 under HVO command, which includes the wearing of HVO

    16 insignia."

    17 Again, you're welcome to read the entire

    18 document, but let's move quickly to 7.

    19 "7. The mobilisation of all Busovaca HVO

    20 forces is to be completed."

    21 And then down to 11.

    22 "11. The Municipal Crisis Committee is

    23 dismissed in accordance with the orders of the HVO of

    24 the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna and the Busovaca

    25 HVO is to take over all authority."

  35. 1 Now, based on the documents that you've seen

    2 in Kiseljak and in Busovaca, it would appear that the

    3 HVO is taking over power in both of those

    4 municipalities; correct?

    5 A. I cannot confirm that, whether this was so.

    6 Mr. President, Your Honours, the documents

    7 which we are reviewing now were drafted in the

    8 municipalities. I did not see these documents and I

    9 cannot comment on them. All I know about Busovaca in

    10 this time period -- and this is what I heard from the

    11 radio -- I know that there were certain incidents, I

    12 know that there were certain incidents -- and here I

    13 see that a member of the HVO was killed, and this was

    14 going on during the period when the former JNA barracks

    15 was being taken over, and this was all in connection

    16 with the take-over of the barracks which was a depot and

    17 by the distribution of the weapons there, and this is

    18 all I know about those events that you are referring to

    19 in Busovaca.

    20 Q. Well, Brigadier, you gave us a series and an

    21 explanation of the causes of the conflict between the

    22 Muslims and the Croats, and I'm going to ask you a

    23 series of questions on some of the documents in

    24 evidence in that particular subject area, and I turn

    25 your attention to the next photograph as well as the

  36. 1 document 318, 319, 323, and 324 and 325.

    2 Once again, Mr. Dubuisson, that's 318, 323,

    3 324, 325.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Is it a Defence --

    5 MR. KEHOE: No, Mr. President, it's a

    6 Prosecution Exhibit. I apologise.

    7 Mr. Dubuisson, after we discuss these

    8 documents, we'll move to Prosecutor's photograph as

    9 well as the document 209.

    10 Q. Now, let's talk about these documents in a

    11 series, starting with the first one, 318, of the 12th

    12 of May, 1992.

    13 Now, on the 12th of May, 1992, again this is

    14 an order by Josip Boro, the Chairman of the Municipal

    15 Crisis Staff, and he orders or decides "that the

    16 complete manpower, material assets, and technical

    17 equipment of the reserve structure of the public

    18 security station are to be put at the disposal of the

    19 HVO."

    20 Now, this is one day after Blaskic's order

    21 outlawing the Territorial Defence and making the HVO

    22 the only legal military authority in Kiseljak; isn't

    23 that so?

    24 A. I cannot answer that this was so or that this

    25 was not so. The documents speak for themselves.

  37. 1 Regarding the decisions which were adopted by

    2 the municipal leadership, this is the time when the

    3 republican authorities practically did not exist, and

    4 the municipal authorities, for all intents and

    5 purposes, took over those competencies. But I cannot

    6 say anything about Kiseljak and -- I was far away from

    7 it and the date is 12 May, 1992, so I am unable to

    8 answer you either in the affirmative or in the

    9 negative.

    10 Q. Well, let's take a look at photograph as well

    11 as the document 319, again another order from Mr. Boro

    12 in Kiseljak, this one dated the 25th of May, 1992, and

    13 again he's saying, "On the basis of the Statute of the

    14 Kiseljak municipality, on the 25th of May, 1992, it is

    15 decided with reference to the decree of the presidency

    16 number," and he talks about the particular number, "the

    17 Crisis Staff cancels the current account of the

    18 Municipal Staff of the Territorial Defence and declares

    19 the use of the seal of this body null and void."

    20 So by this order, approximately two weeks

    21 after Blaskic outlaws the Territorial Defence, the

    22 Municipal Staff of the HVO in Kiseljak cancels their

    23 bank account; is that right? Is that what the

    24 documents reflects?

    25 A. This is what is stated in this decision.

  38. 1 Whether this actually happened, I do not know.

    2 But let me repeat, this document also speaks

    3 of the paralysis of the central authorities and the

    4 municipal authorities take over the competencies of the

    5 central government.

    6 Q. Let's talk about photograph as well as the

    7 document 323, another order by the Municipal Crisis

    8 Staff of the HVO.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo?

    10 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I have an

    11 objection here, and this is just to rationalise these

    12 proceedings. He said that in May of 1992, he was not

    13 in Kiseljak; he does not know what went on there. But

    14 we have a whole series of documents regarding Kiseljak

    15 in that time period, and he had already initially

    16 stated that he was not there, that he did not know what

    17 was going on there.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe, what do you answer

    19 to that?

    20 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, this witness gave

    21 us approximately six pages on the cause of the conflict

    22 between the Bosnian Croats and the Bosnian Muslims. We

    23 are going through the virtual take-over of all of these

    24 municipalities in addition to the witness's

    25 municipality which we are going to get to very

  39. 1 shortly. That's the first point.

    2 The second point is the document that the

    3 Defence put in, photograph as well as the document 199,

    4 which was a document that was described as Blaskic's

    5 efforts to organise the HVO, has to be seen in the

    6 context of what's happening in Kiseljak, and what's

    7 happening in Kiseljak is a complete take-over of

    8 Kiseljak by the HVO.

    9 The order that was put in by the Defence was

    10 followed by an order the next day by the accused

    11 outlawing the Territorial Defence. At the same time,

    12 what is taking place in Busovaca is a take-over of the

    13 Busovaca municipality by the HVO there.

    14 So certainly after the expansive testimony

    15 given by this witness at the behest of questioning --

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, thank you. The witness's

    17 testimony covered a very broad period, including his

    18 own evaluation of the conflict's cause. I think the

    19 Prosecutor is using a legitimate method, even though it

    20 may appear long, even to me, but that is his method,

    21 and I think it is legitimate for him to ask these

    22 questions.

    23 But perhaps, Mr. Kehoe, you could go a little

    24 more directly to your question and present your

    25 objectives a bit more clearly.

  40. 1 MR. KEHOE: Absolutely.

    2 Q. Brigadier, I would like you to take a look at

    3 a series of documents, and that is Prosecutor's Exhibit

    4 323, 324, and 325.

    5 If you could give the witness those

    6 documents --

    7 JUDGE JORDA: 323, right?

    8 MR. KEHOE: 323, 324, and 325.

    9 Mr. President, we will be talking about those in a

    10 series.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps what you should do,

    12 Mr. Kehoe, because I too am very worried, perhaps for

    13 different reasons from Mr. Nobilo's, but I'm very

    14 concerned about all the time that this is taking.

    15 When you say that you're going to bring in

    16 323, 324, and 325, perhaps you could very quickly say

    17 that they concern this point, for example, Kiseljak or

    18 Busovaca, and that I suggest doing that, because it is

    19 true, it is taking a long time. That's my first

    20 comment.

    21 My second is that I am asking -- I know that

    22 it is very difficult for Mr. Dubuisson, but I would

    23 like him to remain as close as possible to the witness

    24 so that putting the documents on the ELMO will take as

    25 little time as possible.

  41. 1 MR. KEHOE: I will go through these documents

    2 very quickly in accordance with your guidelines,

    3 Mr. President.

    4 Q. Now, in photograph as well as the document

    5 323, on the 15th of June of 1993, the Croatian dinar is

    6 introduced into Kiseljak as well as other currencies.

    7 Photograph as well as the document 324 orders that all

    8 pricing should be displayed in Croatian dinars in

    9 Kiseljak. Exhibit 325 is a decision on changing the

    10 name of the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly

    11 of Kiseljak to --

    12 JUDGE JORDA: That's how you should do it,

    13 yes. That way the witness will react to all of these

    14 considerations.

    15 Brigadier, you understood the question and

    16 you may answer.

    17 MR. KEHOE: The last document --

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me.

    19 MR. KEHOE:

    20 Q. In the last document, the executive board in

    21 Kiseljak changes its name to the HVO, and it says that

    22 the HVO "shall consist of."

    23 Now, do you see those documents, sir?

    24 A. Yes, I have the document before me.

    25 Q. Were similar things taking place in your

  42. 1 municipality, Novi Travnik?

    2 A. After the formation of the Croatian community

    3 of Herceg-Bosna, as far as I know, provisional

    4 regulations were passed to establish civilian organs of

    5 authority. I don't know the time, which forms of

    6 civilian bodies, but I cannot claim categorically

    7 whether, before those regulations were passed, any

    8 documents of this kind were passed --

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Will you please answer more

    10 directly, Brigadier? Of course, it is your fundamental

    11 right to make your comments, but in view of efficiency,

    12 when a question is rather simple, will you please say

    13 whether you had this or that, "Yes" or "No," in

    14 Travnik, so please try.

    15 When you need to make a comment that you

    16 consider to be especially important, the Judges will

    17 not prevent you from doing so, but let us try and focus

    18 on the essentials.

    19 Your next question, Mr. Kehoe.

    20 MR. KEHOE:

    21 Q. My question simply is: Did the HVO attempt

    22 to take control of the Novi Travnik municipality during

    23 this time frame?

    24 A. I cannot say that with certainty because I'm

    25 not quite fully familiar with it.

  43. 1 MR. KEHOE: Let us put photograph as well as

    2 the document 80/7 on the ELMO, and if photograph as

    3 well as the document 456/109 could be given to the

    4 witness?

    5 JUDGE JORDA: It is a Prosecution Exhibit?

    6 MR. KEHOE: Yes. I'm sorry, Mr. President.

    7 I neglected to say that both of those are Prosecution

    8 Exhibits, the photograph as well as the document

    9 456/109.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Briefly, what are these

    11 exhibits about, please, while they're looking for

    12 them?

    13 MR. KEHOE: The particular photograph is a

    14 photograph of the three individuals who operated in

    15 conjunction with the accused at a meeting in Busovaca

    16 that took place on the 22nd of September of 1992.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Fine. And 456/109?

    18 MR. KEHOE: That's correct.

    19 Q. Now, before we review the particular

    20 document, Brigadier, I would ask you to take a look at

    21 the photograph that's on the ELMO, and do you know the

    22 three men that are in camouflage uniforms, and using

    23 the pointer, can you identify the three of them?

    24 A. Mr. President, on this photograph I recognise

    25 two gentlemen in uniform, Mr. Ignac Kostroman and

  44. 1 Mr. Dario Kordic. The third person I do not recognise,

    2 or at least I can't recognise him on this photograph.

    3 Q. Well, maybe we will show you another

    4 photograph, 80/8. Do you recognise him in that

    5 photograph?

    6 A. The one I didn't recognise in the previous

    7 photograph?

    8 Q. That's correct. Well, do you recognise the

    9 man that is the second from the left carrying the

    10 suitcase and dressed in a camouflage uniform with a

    11 moustache? Do you recognise him?

    12 A. This gentleman?

    13 Q. That's right.

    14 A. I do recognise him on this photograph. It is

    15 Mr. Anto Valenta.

    16 Q. And Anto Valenta had an office at some point

    17 in the Hotel Vitez, didn't he?

    18 A. Mr. Anto Valenta did stay in an office in the

    19 Vitez Hotel. As far as I recalled, he had the position

    20 of vice-premier of the government of Herceg-Bosna. I

    21 know he was in the civilian authorities.

    22 Q. Now let me turn your attention to Exhibit

    23 456/109, which is an excerpt of the minutes of the

    24 meeting of the Croatian Defence Council in the

    25 municipalities of Central Bosnia dated 22 September,

  45. 1 1992.

    2 Now, Brigadier, the front page of that

    3 document reflects the working presidency as Dario

    4 Kordic, Anto Valenta, Tihomir Blaskic, and Ignac

    5 Kostroman. Do you see that on the front page of that

    6 document?

    7 A. Yes. That is what it says.

    8 Q. Now, let us talk to -- under the sub-heading

    9 "Situations in Municipalities." In Novi Travnik, your

    10 municipality, the document reflects that "it is

    11 estimated that the HVO holds about 70 per cent of the

    12 authority while the Muslims hold about 30." Vitez:

    13 "There is still dual authority. There is a

    14 possibility of confrontation between the Croats and the

    15 Muslims because of the HVO's taking power."

    16 Let's turn the page, two pages, and go to

    17 Busovaca.

    18 Busovaca: "HVO authority was set up on

    19 9 May, 1992. HVO is the only authority. However, the

    20 setting up of the Muslims People Council is a concern."

    21 Turn the page. Kiseljak.

    22 Kiseljak: "The HVO is in complete control.

    23 However, there are frequent conflicts with respect to

    24 the competencies of civilian and military authority.

    25 Almost all enterprises are working. Salaries are paid

  46. 1 in Croatian dinar. After the conflict with the Muslims

    2 which was staged by the leaders from Sarajevo through

    3 Mujahedeen, the situation is quite stable. Military

    4 HVO authority is dominant."

    5 Now, these documents reflect the situation in

    6 Novi Travnik, Busovaca, Vitez, and Kiseljak, and this

    7 document reflects that the HVO has taken virtual

    8 control of all of those municipalities; isn't that

    9 correct?

    10 A. This document reflects the situation in the

    11 municipalities you mentioned, but I cannot claim that

    12 power has been taken over because it is obvious that

    13 there are some negotiations, and I can't explain the

    14 document because I didn't participate in the meeting.

    15 I cannot say on the basis of these documents that power

    16 had been taken over.

    17 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, this document

    18 consists of a number of pages. The Prosecutor is

    19 selecting two or three sentences, and on the basis of

    20 those sentences, asking the witness to give an answer.

    21 If we were to act correctly, then the witness should

    22 have time to read the whole document and only then

    23 answer the questions.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: I think that that is not the

    25 first time in this hall, Mr. Nobilo, that one or the

  47. 1 other party is referring to passages from a document.

    2 The witness did not say what you said; he gave quite a

    3 different answer.

    4 But now I am going to ask the witness, does

    5 he wish to read the whole document? How many pages

    6 does this document have?

    7 MR. KEHOE: In B/C/S, Mr. President, it is

    8 seven pages single-spaced.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. I think the witness

    10 is going to tell us: Do you wish to read the document

    11 in its entirety, Brigadier, or can you answer on the

    12 basis of the question put to you by the Prosecutor

    13 referring to certain passages, which appear to me to be

    14 quite clear but it is up to the witness to answer? Do

    15 you wish to study it?

    16 A. In order to be able to make proper

    17 conclusions regarding specific questions, I would like

    18 to read it. However, I too have an interest in

    19 proceeding rapidly, so it is up to Your Honour to

    20 decide.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: Brigadier, I asked you a

    22 question, and I just wish to draw your attention to the

    23 fact that if you wish to read the document, you will

    24 read it, but you will be staying much longer at the

    25 disposal of the Tribunal. You will not be able to

  48. 1 return today, not even next week, to your offices. So

    2 if you wish to read the document, you can read it, and

    3 we will come back to that question later, Mr. Kehoe,

    4 then.

    5 A. Mr. President, in order to speed up our work

    6 and to make my answers proper, I would like to read

    7 this document.

    8 MR. HAYMAN: Can he read it during the break,

    9 Mr. President? He can read it during the next break

    10 perhaps and we can save some time.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor, in agreement

    12 with my colleagues, proceed to your next question, and

    13 the General will read the whole document later on and

    14 provide an answer.

    15 I do wish to say that a part of the answer

    16 was given before the objection of Mr. Nobilo. So it

    17 was not the witness's request to read the whole

    18 document but Mr. Nobilo thought it would be better for

    19 his witness. So we will take note of that, and please

    20 go on to your next question.

    21 MR. KEHOE:

    22 Q. Well, Brigadier, at the end of September of

    23 1993, where were you working?

    24 A. At the end of September, at the end of

    25 September, 1993, I was in the command of the Operative

  49. 1 Zone.

    2 Q. I misspoke, Brigadier, I apologise. The end

    3 of September of 1992.

    4 A. At the end of September 1992, I was working

    5 in the Defence department in Novi Travnik and appointed

    6 as Chief of Staff of the Civil Defence of the

    7 municipality, and in view of my expertise, I assisted

    8 in the establishment of HVO units in the town of Novi

    9 Travnik itself.

    10 Q. Now, Brigadier, the Defence department that

    11 you were working at in Novi Travnik in September of

    12 1992, that was part of the HVO; correct?

    13 A. In September 1992 -- just a moment, please.

    14 Let me try and remember. The Defence department

    15 consisted of three premises, and there were both Croats

    16 and Muslims working in those premises. May I go on to

    17 the specific answer --

    18 Q. Excuse me, Brigadier. My question is: Was

    19 the Defence department that you were working for in

    20 September of 1992 part of the HVO; "Yes" or "No"?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Did the HVO have 70 per cent of the power in

    23 Novi Travnik in September of 1992; "Yes" or "No"?

    24 A. I cannot tell you exactly.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: You are not being asked to

  50. 1 answer exactly, you are being asked whether it was

    2 probably so or not, and I would like you to answer.

    3 You had a position where you were able to assess with a

    4 certain degree of probability.

    5 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, it is possible

    6 that that is so.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, I'm asking the

    8 witness a question, not the Defence.

    9 A. Mr. President, Your Honour, it is quite

    10 possible that that was so, because we saw it from the

    11 report of the president of the HVO. I can say that on

    12 the basis of that report and not on the basis of my

    13 personal knowledge.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: So, it is possible?

    15 A. Yes, it is possible.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Please continue.

    17 MR. KEHOE:

    18 Q. Brigadier, did the Bosnian Muslims in Central

    19 Bosnia resist the taking over of power by the HVO?

    20 A. I can't answer with a yes or no. Possibly

    21 they did resist, because we saw that there were certain

    22 incidents. I wasn't establishing that authority to be

    23 able to say yes or no; but it is possible, because

    24 there were certain incidents.

    25 Q. Let me show you a document, Brigadier.

  51. 1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 503, 503A for the

    2 English version.

    3 MR. KEHOE:

    4 Q. Brigadier, this is a document that is dated

    5 10 September, 1992 from the Vitez municipality, the

    6 coordination board for the protection of Muslim

    7 interests. If you could read the first paragraph,

    8 going into the second paragraph, it reads: "According

    9 to the decision of the so-called Croatian Defence

    10 Council government of Vitez Municipality, with a

    11 number --

    12 INTERPRETER: A bit slower, please.

    13 MR. KEHOE: I apologise.

    14 Q. "Of 3 September, 1992, it has been decided

    15 that instruction in elementary and secondary schools in

    16 the territory of the municipality of Vitez," some

    17 illegible words, "in 1992, the same decision states

    18 that schoolbooks published in the Republic of Croatia

    19 shall be used during instruction, and the school

    20 buildings and premises should be repaired in such a way

    21 that all emblems, pictures, frescos associated with the

    22 former Yugoslavia are removed."

    23 Next paragraph, first sentence. "We hereby

    24 voice our outrage at this decision, because it has been

    25 made by an illegal organ created by a principle of a

  52. 1 single nationality."

    2 You're certainly welcome to read the rest of

    3 the document.

    4 Now, did that event take place in Novi

    5 Travnik, as well, i.e. the introduction of the Republic

    6 of Croatia curricula into the schools of Novi Travnik?

    7 A. I'm not aware of it.

    8 Q. Now, as we move ahead, after, from September

    9 to October, and in Vitez; is it not true that in

    10 mid-October of 1992 the Vitezovi attacked the

    11 headquarters of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and

    12 drove them out of their headquarters in Vitez?

    13 A. I'm not aware of it; but among the events

    14 that took place in Vitez in October, I'm aware only of

    15 an incident that occurred when the road was blocked at

    16 Grbavica and near Nadioci, between Nadioci and Ahmici

    17 at the cemetery. So I'm aware of that incident within

    18 this time period. As for the event you have referred

    19 to, I'm not aware of it.

    20 Q. Let us turn to Defence Exhibit 250, a

    21 document you identified and was received in evidence

    22 during your direct testimony. I direct your attention

    23 on the BCS version, to page 2, and it's also page 2 on

    24 the English version. It notes, does it not, that on

    25 the 15th of October, 1992, a battle team of eight

  53. 1 soldiers sabotaged the headquarters of the army of

    2 Bosnia-Herzegovina? The commander of the team was

    3 Major Darko Kraljevic, and this is a report of the

    4 Vitezovi. Do you see that?

    5 A. Yes, this is a report of the Vitezovi, and

    6 what you said is stated in this document.

    7 Q. Well, did that happen?

    8 A. I cannot assert that it did happen; but if

    9 the commander said it happened, then it happened.

    10 Q. Okay. So, you would accept that on the 15th

    11 of October, 1992, the Vitezovi attacked the

    12 headquarters of the army?

    13 A. I accept what is written here in the way it

    14 was written in this report by the signatory, whose

    15 signature I recognise, that is, Dragan Vinac, deputy

    16 commander of the special purpose unit Vitezovi, Major

    17 Dragan Vinac. That is all I can confirm.

    18 Q. Sir, you're going to have the opportunity to

    19 read the document from the presidency about the

    20 take-over by the HVO in various municipalities; but my

    21 question, as opposed to focusing on that document, is a

    22 question: Was the HVO taking control in other parts of

    23 Bosnia, other than the municipalities that we have

    24 talked about here today? And were they driving the

    25 Muslims out of various areas?

  54. 1 A. I do not know whether the HVO took over

    2 control in other municipalities. But as far as the

    3 take-over of power in Vitez, Busovaca and Novi Travnik,

    4 I cannot confirm that, because I know that there was a

    5 parallel Muslim authority. What form of authority it

    6 took, I do not know that.

    7 But I cannot confirm that the power was taken

    8 over in Busovaca, in Vitez or in Novi Travnik, even

    9 though the documents seem to say that the HVO

    10 apparently have different powers or government

    11 structure than the ones that used to exist before.

    12 Q. Well, Brigadier, you just stated that, "I do

    13 not know whether the HVO took over control in other

    14 municipalities." In September and October --

    15 A. Right.

    16 Q. -- of 1992, you were working for the HVO; is

    17 that correct?

    18 A. Yes, I worked in the HVO Travnik as a

    19 specialist for the organisation of units based on a

    20 volunteer list which I had available, and I was trying

    21 to organise units for the defence against the Serbs,

    22 and that was my principal task at that time.

    23 Q. How far is Prozor from Novi Travnik?

    24 A. I'm going to try to tell you, approximately,

    25 about 90 kilometres, as far as I can remember.

  55. 1 Q. 90 kilometres.

    2 MR. KEHOE: If I could go to a video, and I

    3 have a particular -- the video has a talking role and

    4 it is in English. I have given copies of this, what

    5 we're about to play, to the translation booth so they

    6 can translate it into English, as well as translate

    7 into BCS.

    8 The video itself was a video that was played

    9 on TV in the United Kingdom known as Bosnia's Last

    10 Testament, and the narrator is s Vulliamy, an

    11 individual who testified before this Court in this

    12 Chamber, in this particular case. So, Your Honours, I

    13 can give you the particular transcript that I have

    14 previously given to the translators.

    15 THE REGISTRAR: This video will be 504, and

    16 the report 504A, transcript, rather.

    17 MR. KEHOE: If we could play the video?

    18 Could you back it up? Rewind it and raise the volume,

    19 please.

    20 (Videotape played)

    21 "This is Prozor, to the south of Travnik.

    22 One night in October I stopped for coffee in the busy

    23 main street. A few days later I returned to find

    24 Croatian mobs roaming through town and 5.000 Muslims

    25 driven into the mountains looking for caves in which to

  56. 1 hide. The pillage and killing in Prozor was the start

    2 of a new Bosnian war and a bit of betrayal for the

    3 Muslims. This is the consolidation of a hard-line

    4 Croatian mini state within Bosnia calling itself

    5 Herceg-Bosna. This territory flies a Croatian flag,

    6 has a Croatian puppet government, uses Croatian money

    7 and even has special Croatian number plates, and it

    8 must say its rulers come under a Croatian army.

    9 Bosnians who refuse that authority are dealt with in

    10 the time honoured way."

    11 MR. KEHOE: If we can put the lights back up,

    12 please.

    13 Q. Brigadier, the events that we just reviewed,

    14 the ends of which took place in October of 1992, in

    15 Prozor, some 90 kilometres away from Novi Travnik. Are

    16 you aware of what happened to the Muslims in Prozor

    17 during the time period of September and October of

    18 1992? Excuse me -- no, it was 1992.

    19 A. Regarding the events in Prozor, I heard about

    20 them through the media. I know that there was a

    21 conflict, and what the results of that conflict were

    22 can be seen from this video clip. I have no doubt that

    23 it is authentic. I didn't go to Prozor before the war,

    24 and I passed through Prozor after the Washington

    25 Accords.

  57. 1 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I would like to

    2 clarify something. It is not quite clear to me, on the

    3 screen it said the 11th of April, 1993. My learned

    4 colleague said it was October 1992. In the transcript

    5 no mention of the year is made, but on the film we

    6 could see that it was April, 1993.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, that is true.

    8 Mr. Prosecutor?

    9 MR. KEHOE: The date on the actual film is 11

    10 April, 1993, which is the date it ran on TV in the

    11 United Kingdom, and they date it from their filing

    12 system.

    13 The October that he is talking about is the,

    14 obviously, the previous year, October of 1992.

    15 Q. You can clarify, Brigadier, that these events

    16 took place in Prozor in October of 1992; isn't that

    17 correct?

    18 A. I know that there was a conflict in October

    19 of 1992 in Prozor. I do not know the exact date, I do

    20 not know the causes, I do not know the participants,

    21 and if the consequences were such as are presented

    22 here; because I don't know, because I was not there.

    23 Q. Well, Brigadier, from what you do know, and

    24 what you learned about Prozor, and the events in

    25 October of 1992; were the Muslims driven out of Prozor

  58. 1 by the HVO?

    2 A. When the conflict took place, its

    3 consequences in Prozor, I don't know if it was 2.000 or

    4 5.000, if the Muslim population withdrew from Prozor to

    5 some neighbouring towns, that is the consequence of

    6 this conflict.

    7 What the reasons are for the withdrawal,

    8 whether it was a consequence of combat operations, that

    9 I cannot speak to. I cannot say either way.

    10 Q. Let's turn our attention, again, to Vitez,

    11 where you were in Novi Travnik, and let us move ahead

    12 to November and discuss yet another document dated 26th

    13 of November, 1992. And, again, this is an SDA

    14 document, party of democratic action, which is the

    15 Muslim party, in Vitez, 26 November, 1992.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 505, 505A for the

    17 English version.

    18 MR. KEHOE:

    19 Q. Brigadier, this is a document, again, as I

    20 noted, dated 26 November, 1992, and it's a press

    21 release and reads as follows, and I will not read the

    22 entire matter. I will read the first two paragraphs,

    23 skip a paragraph, and go down to the fourth paragraph.

    24 But, of course, as always, you are welcome to read the

    25 entire document.

  59. 1 "26 November, 1992. Press release. Since

    2 Wednesday, 25th of November, 1992, there has not been a

    3 single representative of the authorities of Muslim

    4 nationality in the building of the assembly of Vitez

    5 municipality. The Croatian Defence Council government

    6 of the municipality Vitez decided to ban, from the

    7 building of the assembly of Vitez municipality, all

    8 those who have not agreed to work within the system of

    9 the HVO government of the Croatian community of

    10 Herceg-Bosna.

    11 "For example, the president and one of the

    12 members of the Vitez municipal assembly, the president

    13 of the municipal misdemeanours court of Vitez, as well

    14 as some of the employees of the organs of

    15 administration, all of them Muslim nationality, have

    16 been prohibited from entering the building."

    17 Skip a paragraph.

    18 "We would like to point out that since 20

    19 October, 1992, policemen of Muslim nationality have not

    20 been able to carry out their regular duties, only

    21 because they thought themselves to be an integral part

    22 of the police force of the Republic of

    23 Bosnia-Herzegovina and not in the service of the

    24 Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna."

    25 My first question for you, Brigadier, is: Do

  60. 1 you know about these events of people being prevented

    2 from going to work for not coming under HVO authority,

    3 and for the police of Muslim ethnic nationality, not

    4 being able to do their work? Do you know about that in

    5 Vitez?

    6 A. These events, these specific incidents I'm

    7 not familiar with. I'm not familiar with what was

    8 going on with respect to the civilian authorities. But

    9 let me give you a general comment, an overall comment.

    10 All these documents about the establishment

    11 of the HVO authority which were compiled by the Muslim

    12 organisations was a result of the collapse of the

    13 central authorities.

    14 As you know, Sarajevo was already under

    15 siege, and everybody was organising themselves. As I

    16 pointed out earlier, they were taking over competencies

    17 of the central government, and I think that this can be

    18 seen in all these documents that we have been reviewing

    19 here.

    20 Q. You would agree with me, would you not,

    21 Brigadier, that the Bosnian Muslims believed they had

    22 no voice in the decisions of the HVO; isn't that

    23 correct?

    24 A. I do not know what rights were being offered

    25 in the HVO structures.

  61. 1 Q. Well, sir, during the same period of time,

    2 houses of prominent Muslims were being burned in the

    3 Vitez area; isn't that right?

    4 During this time frame, October and November

    5 time frame that we're talking about, Bosnian Muslim

    6 houses of prominent Bosnian Muslims were being burned;

    7 correct?

    8 A. It is not correct for this time period. I

    9 know that the consequence of the burning of houses was

    10 as a result of the armed conflicts. I am not aware of

    11 any incidents where houses were being burned outside of

    12 this conflict.

    13 Q. Outside the conflicts? Let me show you

    14 Defence Exhibit 347. Do you have that document before

    15 you, Brigadier?

    16 A. This document was signed by General Blaskic,

    17 yes.

    18 Q. This is a document, Brigadier, that you

    19 identified in direct examination, and I believe that

    20 Judge Riad asked you a couple of questions about this.

    21 The note in line one, in point one, is that all

    22 measures shall be taken to prevent setting fire to

    23 houses of eminent citizens of Muslim nationality.

    24 A. Yes, that is what is stated in this document.

    25 Q. The date of this document is 5 November,

  62. 1 1992; isn't it?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. So, during the time frame that we're having

    4 these meetings in September, on the take-over of the

    5 municipalities, and during the time frame when Prozor

    6 is being burned and the Muslims are being driven out,

    7 Muslim houses in Vitez, houses of eminent Muslims are

    8 being burned.

    9 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President, Counsel knows

    10 full well this was sent to the HVO in Novi Travnik, not

    11 in Vitez.

    12 MR. KEHOE: That's fine, that's closer to

    13 home.

    14 Q. That's right in your backyard. That's better

    15 still. Houses of prominent Muslims are being burned in

    16 your municipality.

    17 MR. KEHOE: Thanks.

    18 A. Mr. President, Mr. President, this is what I

    19 have to say regarding this document. This document was

    20 compiled on the basis of the agreement of General

    21 Merdan and Mr. Tihomir Blaskic and as a result of the

    22 cessation of hostilities between the HVO and the BH

    23 army, and it was within that conflict, which was in

    24 October, sometime around the 20th, that these houses

    25 were being burned.

  63. 1 Muslim houses were not being set on fire, if

    2 there were no combat operations there.

    3 Q. Brigadier, in Novi Travnik municipality, your

    4 municipality, were the houses of eminent Bosnian Muslim

    5 citizens being torched and burned? Yes or no.

    6 A. Yes, but only at the time of conflict. As

    7 far as I recall, during this conflict, one or two

    8 houses in the town of Novi Travnik were burned down.

    9 Q. So, the burning of these houses, in addition

    10 to the take-over of the HVO, in Novi Travnik, your

    11 municipality, and other municipalities, that that

    12 caused tension between the Bosnian Muslims and the

    13 Bosnian Croats in Central Bosnia.

    14 A. Burning of houses, both Croatian and Bosnian,

    15 certainly contributed to the raising of tensions. In

    16 that respect, the answer is yes.

    17 However, the take-over of power, that is what

    18 I cannot agree with. I cannot, I don't agree that

    19 somebody took over power and the other side was

    20 completely outside of the power. I gave you the

    21 reasons why I believe that this power was then divided,

    22 that is, because of the collapse of the central

    23 government. You saw all the other problems that arose

    24 from this main collapse of central power.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Have you completed that point,

  64. 1 Mr. Kehoe? We will take a break, if you have.

    2 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: We're going to take a 15-minute

    4 break.

    5 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.

    6 --- On resuming at 12.41 p.m.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is resumed. Have

    8 the accused brought in, please.

    9 (The accused entered court)

    10 MR. KEHOE: May I proceed, Mr. President?

    11 Q. Brigadier, we are going to --

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Proceed, please.

    13 MR. KEHOE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.

    14 Q. We are going to move ahead from the fall and

    15 winter of 1992 to the events in January of 1993. My

    16 first question on this is: Did the people in the

    17 headquarters of the Central Bosnian Operative Zone know

    18 that a conflict was going to break out with the Bosnian

    19 Muslims, an armed conflict?

    20 A. Could you please tell me the time frame with

    21 some precision when you are asking me whether we knew

    22 that there would be a conflict with the Muslims or,

    23 rather, the BH army?

    24 Q. Well, in the first week of January of 1993,

    25 was it the belief of the accused Colonel Blaskic and

  65. 1 the other members of the headquarters, that a conflict

    2 was going to break out with the Bosnian Muslims and

    3 with the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    4 A. After the conflict in January 1993 and

    5 according to our intelligence reports regarding the

    6 activities and intentions of the BH army, I personally

    7 did expect a conflict. My personal assessment was that

    8 there would be a conflict.

    9 Q. Now, maybe my question isn't clear,

    10 Brigadier. I'm saying to you that when you are in the

    11 headquarters in the first week of January in 1993, did

    12 you believe and did Colonel Blaskic believe that there

    13 was going to be a conflict with the army of

    14 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    15 A. As far as I can recall, at that time, General

    16 Blaskic did not believe that a conflict could break

    17 out, but he always had a certain reservation as regards

    18 the possibility of such a conflict.

    19 Q. Let me show you a document, Brigadier.

    20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 506, 506A for the

    21 French version, 506B for the English version.

    22 MR. KEHOE:

    23 Q. Now, Brigadier, do you recognise Colonel

    24 Blaskic's signature on the document?

    25 A. I do recognise it. This is Colonel Blaskic's

  66. 1 signature, and it is the stamp of the Operative Zone

    2 Command.

    3 Q. Okay, sir. Let's just read this very

    4 briefly. It's 4 January, 1993, marked "Urgent." Time,

    5 12.15. It's going to Central Bosnia Croatian Defence

    6 Council brigades, the anti-aircraft defence, and the

    7 artillery division, and there's deliveries in the lower

    8 left-hand corner to all the brigades. Preparatory

    9 language: "In order to draw up a plan of the tasks to

    10 be carried out by the Central Bosnian Operative Zone

    11 and to present a review of the state of engineering

    12 works --"

    13 JUDGE JORDA: I have it in French, so to

    14 proceed more quickly, as we all have a copy, you could

    15 go on to the question.

    16 MR. KEHOE: Yes.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Unless it is very important for

    18 you to read it out.

    19 MR. KEHOE: It's not, Mr. President. It just

    20 gives the witness a bit of a chance to review a

    21 document on the chance that he hasn't seen it before.

    22 I'm just trying to give him some opportunity to review

    23 it as well. But we will go straight to the questions

    24 and they deal with first the paragraph.

    25 Q. Paragraph 1 deals with an order by all

  67. 1 brigades "to review the state of engineering works and

    2 territorial preparations."

    3 Do you see that, sir?

    4 A. Yes, I see it.

    5 Q. And "engineering works" means, among other

    6 things, trenches, does it not?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. This particular order is marked "Urgent" with

    9 a completion date of 10 January, 1993, for reports to

    10 be issued to the headquarters?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 MR. KEHOE: Let us turn to the next document,

    13 which is an order of the 7th of January, 1993.

    14 Mr. President, unfortunately, there is no

    15 French version for this one, so I will have to be

    16 pressed into the service of reading it.

    17 JUDGE RIAD: The President has a wonderful

    18 command of English now.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: I am very pleased by what Judge

    20 Riad has said, but I still get on a little better with

    21 the French.

    22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 507, 507A for the

    23 English version.

    24 MR. KEHOE:

    25 Q. Now, Brigadier, this is a document, appeared

  68. 1 to be -- sending by packet, with the author looking to

    2 be like you, is it not? "S.M." in the lower left-hand

    3 corner?

    4 A. Yes, yes, these are my initials.

    5 Q. I'm not quite sure if that's the incoming

    6 stamp of you or the HVO Travnik, but I believe it's the

    7 incoming stamp of Travnik; right? If you don't know,

    8 you don't know. It's not important.

    9 A. It could be the packet stamp of Travnik. It

    10 says HVO Travnik. It could be. I'm not quite sure.

    11 Q. Now, Brigadier, you wrote this, did you not?

    12 A. Yes, I wrote this document.

    13 Q. On the 7th of January, 1993, at 15.20, and

    14 let's read this order: The accused Colonel Blaskic

    15 issues an order to the Central Bosnian Operative Zone

    16 Brigades, to the HVO municipal authorities, as well as

    17 the Vitez Regional Military Police. This is a

    18 supplement to the order of 1419/92 of 5 December, 1992,

    19 and 1618/92 of 8 December, 1992.

    20 "Further to the need of harmonisation of

    21 working hours for hotel and catering establishments and

    22 the curfew in the zones of responsibility of the

    23 Central Bosnian Operative Zone, I hereby order:

    24 "1. Hotel and catering establishments may

    25 be open according to the following:

  69. 1 "(a) In the municipalities of Travnik, Novi

    2 Travnik, Zepce, Usora until 1900 hours. In Vitez, in

    3 the Vitez municipality, until 2000 hours. In the

    4 municipalities of Busovaca, Kiseljak, Kresevo, Fojnica,

    5 Vares, Zenica, Kakanj until 2200 hours.

    6 "2. Curfew hours in the municipality of

    7 Novi Travnik, Zepce, Usora from 2000 hours until 0400

    8 hours. In the Vitez municipality from 2100 hours until

    9 0400 hours. In the municipalities of Busovaca,

    10 Kiseljak, Kresevo, Vares, Kakanj, Zenica from 2300

    11 hours until 0400 hours.

    12 "This order goes into effect on 9 January,

    13 1993, and the commander of the Military Police

    14 Battalion is responsible to me for its execution."

    15 Now, Brigadier, you wrote this document, did

    16 you not?

    17 A. Yes, yes, I did write this document.

    18 Q. In this document, Colonel Blaskic is

    19 exercising command over civilian authorities, is he

    20 not?

    21 A. It could be interpreted in that way on the

    22 basis of this order, but as I'm the author, let me

    23 explain the circumstances under which it was written.

    24 The document was issued because of repeated

    25 disturbances of public law and order, shooting around

  70. 1 town, disturbing the peace, and then military men or

    2 military conscripts who had weapons would cause

    3 disorders in town, and the order was issued because the

    4 commander reached agreement with the civilian

    5 authorities, and it can be seen that he is giving it to

    6 the government for their information, not as an order,

    7 and the times were established as the civilian

    8 authorities wanted it, and since the civilian police --

    9 I just explained the situation it was in at the time

    10 with inadequate arms and equipment, and it was not

    11 capable of carrying out military policing, so this

    12 assignment was given to the 4th Military Police

    13 Battalion and all its units within the territory of the

    14 Central Bosnia Operative Zone.

    15 My conclusion: This document was designed to

    16 improve law and order for the citizens in the territory

    17 of this municipality.

    18 Q. Well, Brigadier, you just said that it can be

    19 seen that (Blaskic) is giving it to the government for

    20 their information, not as an order." But it's quite

    21 clear from this document, is it not, that Blaskic is

    22 giving an order to civilians that run hotel and

    23 catering establishments; isn't that right?

    24 A. That is not right because I know how the

    25 document was drafted and what its role was. The times

  71. 1 indicated were simply so that the Military Police would

    2 know what the working hours of various establishments

    3 were so that they could deal with problems together

    4 with the civilian police. The times were given by the

    5 civilian authorities.

    6 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, this is an

    7 example of manipulation, and that is why I am

    8 objecting. I think the document needs to be read to

    9 the end. By partially reading the document, an attempt

    10 is made at manipulation. It says: "Deliver to the HVO

    11 governments for their information and to the brigades

    12 for execution," and if the document is read until the

    13 end, this becomes clear.

    14 MR. KEHOE: Please. Mr. President, I object

    15 to these comments about manipulation. The document

    16 speaks for itself. This is an order, not some

    17 permission that Blaskic is asking for; he's issuing an

    18 order to hotel establishments and catering

    19 establishments.

    20 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Mr. Kehoe, Mr. Nobilo

    21 suggested that the document be read to the end. Would

    22 it be right to go to the top of the document and to see

    23 whether any assistance can be had from Order No. 1419

    24 of 1992, unless you have already provided us with it.

    25 I don't know where it is. The writing there says that

  72. 1 this order is a supplement to the Order No. 1419/92 of

    2 5 December, 1992.

    3 Would that previous document be helpful in

    4 throwing light on some of the issues raised?

    5 MR. KEHOE: Yes, it would, Judge

    6 Shahabuddeen, but I don't think we have that. That's

    7 the problem. It would shed a tremendous amount of

    8 light on everything that is said in this document.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Judge Shahabuddeen.

    10 I would simply like to say to Mr. Nobilo, the

    11 word "manipulation," one must be very careful about

    12 using it, especially to the opposing party.

    13 Secondly, I think you are right. One should

    14 see the document in its entirety, but this is still an

    15 order sent for the sake of information. That's all.

    16 It is still an order sent for information purposes. So

    17 please be careful as regards your interpretations.

    18 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President. I do

    19 apologise if I misspoke.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Mr. Kehoe, please

    21 continue.

    22 MR. KEHOE:

    23 Q. Your testimony, Brigadier, is that with the

    24 consent of the municipal authorities, Blaskic was given

    25 the power to give orders to civilian businesses as well

  73. 1 as to civilians themselves?

    2 A. I am not saying that. I cannot assert that.

    3 In this specific case, one can see what has been

    4 ordered and I said on the basis of what this order was

    5 issued because I worked on it and I remember.

    6 Q. Well, prior to this time, did you issue

    7 orders to hotels and catering establishments to give

    8 them the parameters of their working hours and did you

    9 send out orders on curfews, telling civilians what the

    10 curfews in the respective municipalities was going to

    11 be?

    12 A. I do not recall specifically such orders, but

    13 I should like to try and recall the documents mentioned

    14 here by Judge Shahabuddeen. But I think that in this

    15 order, the times were changed. I can't be sure, but I

    16 think that in the previous orders, the times may have

    17 been different. It may have been 2000 hours, and then

    18 the municipalities probably thought that this was not

    19 appropriate, they asked for the times to be changed,

    20 and then we probably issued a new order indicating

    21 these new times. But I'm not 100 per cent sure about

    22 that.

    23 Q. Well, one last question on this document,

    24 Brigadier. You would agree with me that in setting out

    25 these hours, both the curfew hours and the business

  74. 1 hours, Blaskic orders the 4th Military Police Battalion

    2 to ensure that people comply with this order; isn't

    3 that correct? And I am directing your attention to

    4 number 3.

    5 A. Yes. By this order, the Military Police is

    6 assigned to carry out these duties.

    7 Q. Thank you. Let's move on to another

    8 document.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Go ahead.

    10 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Mr. President. This again

    11 is a document which there is no French translation yet,

    12 so unfortunately, I will have to read this document,

    13 which is one page over on to a little bit of the next

    14 page.

    15 THE REGISTRAR: Document 508, 508A for the

    16 English version.

    17 MR. KEHOE:

    18 Q. Brigadier, what we have before us is an order

    19 from Brigadier Milvoj Petkovic; do you recognise that

    20 signature, or the stamp of Brigadier Petkovic?

    21 A. The main headquarters of the HVO had such a

    22 stamp, and as far as I can recall, this could be

    23 General Petkovic's signature.

    24 Q. Let's read this order that emanates Mostar on

    25 the 15th of January, 1993. It reads as follows: "On

  75. 1 the basis of an order of the HVO Croatian Defence

    2 Council of the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna,

    3 01-1-32/93 of 15 January, 1993, of an order of the head

    4 of the defence department, 021/19 of 15 January, 1993,

    5 regarding the Geneva agreement on the arrangements for

    6 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the jurisdiction of the command

    7 of the armed forces in the provinces, I hereby issue

    8 the following order.

    9 1. All units in the HVO and BH army, armed

    10 forces, in provinces 3, 8 and 10, the Croatian

    11 provinces, shall be placed under the command of the HVO

    12 main staff, i.e. under the command of the Central

    13 Bosnia north-west and south-east Herzegovina Operative

    14 Zone.

    15 2. All HVO units in provinces 159, the

    16 Muslim provinces, shall be placed under the command of

    17 the BiH army staff, some of the brigades of the Central

    18 Bosnia Operative Zone.

    19 3. HVO forces in Kresevo and Kiseljak

    20 municipalities shall remain under the command of the

    21 HVO main staff, i.e. main staff, i.e. Central Bosnian

    22 Operative Zone until further notice.

    23 4. Members and units of the HVO and BH army

    24 armed forces that fail to submit to the commands as

    25 stipulated in items 1 and 2 of this order must leave

  76. 1 the territory of provinces they do not belong to,

    2 otherwise they will be considered paramilitary and

    3 disarmed.

    4 5. Officers of the BH army shall be

    5 represented in the HVO armed forces commands at the

    6 Operative Zone and the brigade level, in proportion to

    7 the number of soldiers in the front. This follows the

    8 agreement on the joint commands.

    9 6. BH army officers who, by their conduct,

    10 have contributed to disruption of relations between

    11 Croatian and Muslim nations shall not be members of the

    12 joint commands.

    13 7. Operative Zone commanders shall start

    14 negotiating with BH army and find the best way of

    15 establishing joint commands.

    16 8. The deadline for implementation of this

    17 order is 20 January, 1993.

    18 9. A report on the implementation of this

    19 order shall be submitted to me every eight hours."

    20 Chief of the HVO main staff, Brigadier Milvoj

    21 Petkovic, and the copies go to the Operative Zone

    22 south-east, north-west Central Bosnia, 1st Mostar Brigade

    23 and files.

    24 Brigadier, do you remember this document?

    25 A. I remember this document.

  77. 1 Q. Well, tell us about it, Brigadier, how did

    2 this come about? And tell us about what happened in

    3 the Central Bosnia Operative Zone when this order came

    4 into your possession?

    5 A. From the preamble, you see how it has come

    6 about. It is through HZHB, and it is pursuant to the

    7 negotiations in Geneva. I don't know what was decided

    8 there, but it had to do with organising the provinces,

    9 and I think that it regards the HVO as much as the BH

    10 army.

    11 I do not know what type of order the BH army

    12 main headquarters may have issued to their own units.

    13 As far as Central Bosnia Operative Zone is concerned,

    14 speaking operationally, we did not take any significant

    15 steps, I mean specifically. Although, I think that the

    16 commander may know more about the specifics of this

    17 document, but this is as much as I know.

    18 Q. Well, focusing on paragraph one, you do know

    19 that province 10 is the area that covers basically the

    20 Lasva Valley area; is that right?

    21 A. I'm not sure that this is so. I assume that

    22 it is so.

    23 Q. Based on this order, and events around this

    24 time, is it your testimony that the Colonel Blaskic

    25 took no steps, based on this order, took no steps

  78. 1 whatsoever?

    2 A. I cannot confirm that, because the task here

    3 is to establish contact with the BH army

    4 representatives. I do not know whether he, as the

    5 commander of the Operative Zone, established contact

    6 with the 3rd Corps commander or somebody at the

    7 equivalent level.

    8 Q. Were there any other orders that came from

    9 Mostar on the 15th that would have caused Colonel

    10 Blaskic to take steps?

    11 A. I cannot recall at this moment. If I was

    12 given a document, and I then I would maybe be able to

    13 refresh my memory. So, I cannot recall whether on that

    14 specific date that there was this document.

    15 Q. Brigadier, you were in the headquarters at

    16 the time. Based on the decision to implement the

    17 Vance-Owen Plan in January, 15th of January, 1993, was

    18 it the belief within the headquarters that the HVO had

    19 to take some defensive measures?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. Let me show you a document, sir. 456/6.

    22 MR. KEHOE: Now, if we could have the

    23 Brigadier also take a look at 508, I'm sorry,

    24 Mr. Usher.

    25 MR. KEHOE:

  79. 1 Q. Brigadier, the exhibit we just read, the

    2 order from Milvoj Petkovic, has a number of 0-70; is

    3 that right?

    4 A. Yes, 01/70.

    5 Q. I'm sorry, 01-70. Let's turn to this

    6 exhibit, which is an order of Colonel Blaskic. It

    7 refers to an order coming from the Mostar headquarters

    8 of 01/66, four orders prior to this implementation

    9 order for the Vance-Owen Plan.

    10 MR. KEHOE: Again, my apologies, Mr.

    11 President, but there is no French version of this

    12 document.

    13 MR. KEHOE:

    14 Q. But the date of the order is 16 January, 1993

    15 at 1140 hours. And the title is, "Full combat

    16 readiness of all HVO formations in Central Bosnian

    17 Operative Zone. Order." And it goes to all formations

    18 in the Central Bosnia Operative Zone, the Bruno Busic

    19 formation, Ludvig Pavlovic formation, the Vitezovi

    20 formation, Travnik police department, and the 4th

    21 Battalion of the military police. By the way the

    22 Travnik police department is a civil police structure;

    23 isn't it?

    24 A. The Travnik police department was part of the

    25 Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

  80. 1 that was the civilian police.

    2 Q. Fine. Let's read it.

    3 "Pursuant to the order of the Mostar HVO

    4 headquarters, number 01-66/93, dated 15 January, 1993,

    5 and due to the open and deceitful aggression of Muslim

    6 forces all over the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna,

    7 which has caused scores of HVO members to be killed and

    8 a number of them to be wounded, as well as Croatian

    9 homes to be burned and the Croatian people driven out,

    10 for the purpose of the self defence of the people and

    11 the territory of the Croatian community of

    12 Herceg-Bosna, I hereby order the following:

    13 1. Raise the combat readiness of HVO

    14 formations to the highest level.

    15 2. All HVO formations are to be in a maximum

    16 state of readiness. All armed members of the Croatian

    17 people are to be included in the HVO formations.

    18 Cancel all leave and stop allowing people to go home,

    19 find accommodation for all HVO formations. Keep two

    20 shifts on duty along the front-line with the Chetniks

    21 and keep the other forces in full readiness for action

    22 against Muslim forces. All Muslims in the HVO

    23 formations who disobey our orders are to be disarmed

    24 and isolated. All weapons in private hands are to be

    25 collected in the logistics section of the brigades and

  81. 1 used for arming men who are ready to fight. All

    2 Croatian villages are to be secured by sending in the

    3 necessary number of men, as assessed.

    4 3. All brigades in the areas of conflict

    5 must have intervention units for mutual assistance.

    6 4. HVO brigades, Jure Francetic from Zenica,

    7 and the Nikola Subic-Zrinski from Busovaca, are to

    8 organise monitoring of the stretch from Zenica and the

    9 area under the control of the Operative Zone. HVO

    10 Brigade Stjepan Tomasevic, from Novi Travnik, is to

    11 monitor the stretch towards Gornji Vakuf and be

    12 prepared to act if needed.

    13 5. The 4th Military Police Battalion is to

    14 control the traffic and confiscate equipment and

    15 weapons of all Muslim transports and put them at the

    16 disposal of HVO forces.

    17 6. 4th Military Police Battalion is to use

    18 its forces to secure the commands and HVO bodies.

    19 7. I forbid members of the command to leave

    20 and go home for rest.

    21 8. All persons and formations outside of our

    22 formations are not to be allowed into the zone of

    23 responsibility.

    24 9. We are to prevent any individual or group

    25 in subordination.

  82. 1 10. All reports about the area and

    2 formations are to be handed to me and signed by the

    3 commanders themselves.

    4 11. The deadline for readiness and

    5 compliance with this order is 18 January, 1993, at 0500

    6 hours, with reports at 0600" -- excuse me, "0600 to

    7 0630, at 1100 hours to 1130, at 1800 to 1830, at 2300

    8 to 2330, and anything exceptional immediately, sentence

    9 as printed.

    10 12. UNPROFOR humanitarian and transports are

    11 to be let through."

    12 And there is a delivery in the lower

    13 left-hand corner to any number of individuals, the

    14 brigades and the formations as we discussed.

    15 Now, my first question, Brigadier: Does that

    16 appear to be Colonel Blaskic's signature on the second

    17 page, and his stamp?

    18 A. Yes, this is General Blaskic's signature, and

    19 the stamp is of the Operative Zone command.

    20 Q. Was this order implemented?

    21 A. This order, such as was given here, was not

    22 implemented.

    23 Q. Well, what was done and what was not done?

    24 A. I would have to take it from item to item.

    25 Let me try to remember; because I did not remember the

  83. 1 date of this document, but as I read through the

    2 contents, I recall the activities.

    3 I could not tell you individually what we

    4 did, what was implemented. I know there was no

    5 disarming of the BH army or the Muslim members of the

    6 HVO. I know that this did not happen.

    7 I do not know how the traffic control was

    8 conducted, that is, whether any convoy which was

    9 carrying stuff to the BH army was stopped and their

    10 goods confiscated.

    11 Regarding leave and everything else in that

    12 respect, we never had leaves, at least nobody in the

    13 Operative Zone command.

    14 Let me see about the mobilisation. Regarding

    15 the weapons which were in private possession, we were

    16 unable to collect it, because anything owned privately

    17 we were unable to collect.

    18 Later on, this was after Dayton, we were able

    19 to do so through SFOR. Let me read further.

    20 The intervention units and brigades we did

    21 not have. As far as I know, from this order, on the

    22 date when it was issued, there were no consequences,

    23 there was no conflict with respect to the

    24 implementation.

    25 I also want to add something else. It was

  84. 1 issued through an order of the -- we were tasked

    2 ourselves by the Chief of Staff of the main

    3 headquarters, but whether these activities were

    4 necessary to be implemented in the larger areas of

    5 Orasje, south-eastern and north-western Herzegovina, that

    6 I do not know.

    7 But we did work on this order, and we sent it

    8 down to our subordinate units, but it had no effects.

    9 In other words, this order did not cause any conflicts

    10 on the 17th, 18th and following days. This is what I

    11 recall about this document.

    12 Q. Well, Brigadier, you told us on direct

    13 examination that the conflict broke out in the Kacuni

    14 area at approximately the 24th of January; isn't that

    15 right?

    16 A. Yes, I said that, and I also said why. I

    17 said what caused it. I think that there is a report

    18 from the Nikola Subic-Zrinski Brigade on the killing of

    19 a policeman, I believe.

    20 Q. That's fine, the date I asked you for, excuse

    21 me for interrupting you, but we're coming down to the

    22 end of the day. You said it was the 24th of January.

    23 Yet approximately a week before Blaskic is ordering

    24 that two shifts be kept on the line against the

    25 Chetniks, the Bosnian Serbs, and the other forces

  85. 1 should be moved into full readiness for action against

    2 the Muslim forces.

    3 Doesn't he order that on the 16th in

    4 paragraph 2?

    5 A. That was ordered.

    6 Q. He also ordered that all Muslims and HVO

    7 formations should be disarmed. He says that, as well.

    8 A. Yes, but those who disobeyed the HVO orders,

    9 because they were members of the HVO; so, who disobeyed

    10 the HVO orders.

    11 Q. Well, it doesn't say to disarm the Croats who

    12 disobey orders; does it? It points out the Muslims.

    13 A. It does not state that the Croats should be

    14 disarmed, it just states the disobeying orders.

    15 Q. On paragraph 5 he orders the military police

    16 to confiscate equipment and weapons from all Muslim

    17 transports and put them at the disposal of the HVO; do

    18 you see that?

    19 A. Yes, it states so here; and as far as I

    20 recall, this type of confiscation did not take place.

    21 Again, I repeat, this order was issued on the basis of

    22 another order by the Chief of Staff of the main

    23 headquarters.

    24 Q. Well, Brigadier, it sounds like he is getting

    25 ready for something; doesn't it?

  86. 1 A. This order is in the function of taking

    2 certain steps which would prevent any kind of

    3 surprise. As a professional soldier, this is how I

    4 interpreted this order.

    5 Q. Have you ever seen an order prior to this

    6 where Blaskic took units off the line against the

    7 Chetniks, told the Muslims to be disarmed, and then

    8 told the 4th Military Police Battalion to stop Muslim

    9 transports, to take weapons and equipment from them and

    10 put that weaponry and equipment at the disposal of the

    11 HVO? Is there another order like this?

    12 A. I do not recall another order. But, Mr.

    13 President, I would like to counter what the counsel is

    14 saying, because he keeps the same number of men against

    15 the Chetniks, except now we do not have three, but two

    16 shifts. Then, it does not state that the Muslims are

    17 to be disarmed. He only points out those who disobey

    18 the orders, so this is the correction I want to put in.

    19 And the rest is yes.

    20 MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I'm about to go

    21 into another area, if it would be a good time to break.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: I would like to take five

    23 minutes to have a private session.

    24 (Private session)

    25 (redacted)

  87. 1












    13 Pages 13190 to 13198 redacted - in private session








    21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    22 1.40 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,

    23 the 12th day of October, 1998 at 2.00 p.m.