1 Tuesday, 24th November, 1998
2 (Open session)
3 --- Upon commencing at 10.19 a.m.
4 JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated and have the
5 accused brought in, please.
6 (The accused entered court)
7 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Registrar, the Judges would
8 like to have a closed session before the witness comes
9 in, or private session.
10 (Private session)
13 Pages 15305 to 15315 redacted in private session
1 (The witness entered court)
2 JUDGE JORDA: Do you hear me, Mrs. Papic?
3 THE WITNESS: I do.
4 JUDGE JORDA: You're not going to remain
5 standing for very long, let me tell you that right
6 away. First of all, give us your name, your given
7 name, your place and date of birth and where you're
8 currently residing.
9 THE WITNESS: I was born in Poculica. I'm
10 staying in Vitez.
11 JUDGE JORDA: You were born in Poculica, if
12 I'm not mistaken. How old are you? What is your date
13 of birth, please?
14 THE WITNESS: I was born in '39.
15 JUDGE JORDA: Please remain standing for a
16 few more moments.
17 THE WITNESS: I was born in '39.
18 JUDGE JORDA: Do you remember the date and
19 the month?
20 THE WITNESS: In March.
21 JUDGE JORDA: The 3rd of which month?
22 THE WITNESS: In March, in 1939.
23 JUDGE JORDA: All right. The 3rd of March.
24 Thank you. Yes, it was in March. And what was the
1 THE WITNESS: The 13th. The 13th.
2 JUDGE JORDA: It was the 13th of March.
3 Thank you very much.
4 I'm saying this for the Defence: Mrs. Mara
5 Papic was born on the 13th of March, 1939. Please read
6 the oath, but perhaps if you have difficulties reading,
7 the registrar will read it for you. The registrar will
8 read to you a statement -- a declaration, rather, and
9 you will nod your approval of that declaration. Go
11 THE REGISTRAR: If would you repeat after
12 me. "I solemnly declare."
13 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare.
14 THE REGISTRAR: "That I will speak the truth."
15 THE WITNESS: That I will speak the truth.
16 THE REGISTRAR: "The whole truth."
17 THE WITNESS: The whole truth.
18 THE REGISTRAR: "And nothing but truth."
19 THE WITNESS: And nothing but the truth.
20 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you very much,
21 Mrs. Papic, you may be seated now.
22 Relax, Mrs. Papic, you have nothing to fear.
23 You have agreed to come to a far away country, in
24 respect of your own country. Do not be afraid. If
25 you're tired, tell us that you're tired.
1 You're going to answer questions that will
2 first be asked by the counsel working for
3 General Blaskic, and then you will be asked questions
4 by the Office of the Prosecutor, and the Judges may
5 also ask you some questions.
6 Don't be afraid. You are accused of nothing,
7 but you are the one who is coming to testify, and we
8 are appreciative of that. Do you feel all right?
9 THE WITNESS: I do.
10 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. I think that we can
11 begin now. Mr. Nobilo.
12 WITNESS: MARA PAPIC
13 Examined by Mr. Nobilo:
14 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Q. Mrs. Papic, just a few more things about
16 you. You said that you were born on the 13th of March,
17 1939 in Poculica. Did you live in Poculica until the
18 war with the Muslims?
19 A. Yes. Yes, I did.
20 Q. And where do you live now?
21 A. Now I live in Vitez.
22 Q. As a displaced person?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you return to your house?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Tell me, how many children do you have?
2 A. I have three, two daughters and one son.
3 Q. And you're a widow.
4 A. Right?
5 Q. Please tell the Court, did you ever appear
6 before a court of law? Did you ever go to prison?
7 Were you ever punished in such a way in your life?
8 A. No, I've never been to a court of law in my
10 Q. Never. So this is the first time?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Please, could we have a map distributed?
13 There's original and copies.
14 THE REGISTRAR: This is D449.
15 MR. NOBILO:
16 Q. Before we start, before you start making your
17 statement, could you please explain to the Court
18 whether it is correct that you and I made up this map?
19 You showed me the direction in which you were fleeing
20 from Poculica, and then I pasted this red arrow on the
21 map, and the circle shows Poculica, your village, and
22 Vitez; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Until the war broke out you lived in
25 Poculica. Tell us, did Muslims and Croats live
1 together in Poculica?
2 A. Yes. The mosque was right over here, and
3 then there were the Croats and then over here were the
4 Muslims, and the Croats. From my house, down there,
5 there were more Croats. It wasn't that mixed.
6 Q. How did you get along with your Muslim
7 neighbours? Could you please describe that to the
9 A. Very nicely. Very nicely. When it was
10 Bajram we would go to see them, and when we celebrated
11 Christmas they came to see us. I have a neighbour,
12 there's only a fence between our yard and their yard.
13 And, you know, we were all retired persons and we
14 weren't exactly well-off, and whatever was ours was
15 theirs and vice versa.
16 Q. Did anything frighten you on Easter when you
17 saw some men with long beards who were practising
18 something? Was it your neighbours, your
19 Muslim neighbours who frightened you in any way?
20 Please describe what you saw.
21 A. Well, you know, they were walking down the
22 road, and these people were running along exercising,
23 doing something, you know, a long beard, a long -- and
24 long blonde hair too, and I never saw that before.
25 Nobody in our parts wears a long beard and long hair
1 like that. I asked my neighbour, Smajo, "What is
2 this? Why are these people running down" --
3 Q. Yes. And your neighbour is a Muslim; right?
4 A. Yes, yes. He's called Smajo. So I asked
5 him, and he said, "Well, these are foreigners. These
6 are Mujahedin. They've come to our place to Prnjavor,
7 don't be frightened." We never thought that something
8 would come out of it, you know.
9 Q. And please tell the Court, on the 15th of
10 April, 1993, that is a day before the shooting actually
11 broke out in your village, what were you doing? Did
12 you notice that there would be a war? Did you go to a
14 A. Yes. We went to a meeting, and the
15 municipality of Vitez convened all of us to a meeting.
16 Q. And what do you mean "all of us"? Who was
17 all of you?
18 A. All of us, the Muslims and the Croats. We
19 were retirees and they wanted to give us something. We
20 spent about an hour at this meeting, and we went home
21 and we don't know a thing after that. This neighbour
22 of mine, he walked me home and -- we walked together, I
24 Q. Did the municipality of Vitez wish to give
25 seed to both you and the Muslims so that you could
1 actually do your agricultural work in the spring,
2 right, so you could plant whatever you had to?
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 Q. And was it given to both of you?
5 A. Yes, it was given to both of us.
6 Q. The Muslims and the Croats?
7 A. Yes, the Muslims and the Croats. We did it
8 together, you know.
9 Q. The next day, the 16th of April, 1993, before
10 the shooting started in your village, who called you
11 and who told you what? And how many minutes before
13 A. About ten minutes before all that my sister
14 phoned me, and she said, "Hey, have you heard all this
15 shooting?" I said, "No, no, I can't hear any
16 shooting. Where?" She said to me, "Go up there to
17 momma's." You know, our mother lives near the school,
18 between the Muslims and the Croats. She said, "Go and
19 get our mother." Our mother is old. She's 80 years
21 I went to get my mother, and I called my son
22 to go to Grebenar. I mean, that was the commander
23 if --
24 Q. Just a minute. Sorry. We have to wait a
25 little bit to have your words translated, so we're
1 going to make small pauses as we speak.
2 Where was your son at daybreak? What did he
4 A. They were on guard duty together, the Muslims
5 and the Croats. They were walking up and down the
6 road. I don't know. Some kind of guard duty because
7 of these Serbian -- I don't know what.
8 Q. And tell me, your son, did he know that there
9 would be a war?
10 A. No, he didn't. When I said, "Go over there
11 to Grebenar," we could hear shooting, my sister called
12 me, "Let's see what's going to happen, what we're going
13 to do." And that's when it started shooting all over
14 the place, when Grebenar came to my house, he made a
15 phone call to Vitez and they said, "We don't know a
16 thing." And they said, "Yes, there's shooting some
17 place but we don't know either."
18 Q. And tell me, Grebenar was the commander in
19 your village; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, he was the commander, and he came to my
21 place straight away.
22 Q. After Grebenar made this phone call to Vitez
23 and that they -- when they said that they also saw that
24 there was shooting but they didn't know exactly where,
25 what happened in your village? Was there shelling or
2 A. There was shooting all over the place.
3 Behind the mosque where the Croatian houses were, there
4 was shooting there, and they took our Croat people and
5 they drove them away from the mosque. They took them
6 to prison.
7 Q. And tell me, did shells start falling around
8 your house and in this Croatian part of the village?
9 A. First the sheds were on fire.
10 Q. Whose sheds?
11 A. And right by the mosque, you know.
12 Q. Is that person a Croat?
13 A. Yes, yes, he's a Croat, and his shed and
14 Kristo Bozo's shed and his stable also caught fire.
15 Q. Is he also Croat?
16 A. Yes, he is also a Croat. Ten minutes later,
17 Stipan Ramnjak's two houses and stable.
18 Q. He is also a Croat?
19 A. Yes, he is. Then all these Croat houses
20 below my house -- I mean, that was the Croatian part of
21 the village, and then shells started falling all over
23 Q. Your house is closer to the Muslim houses; is
24 that right?
25 A. Right.
1 Q. And when the shells started to fall on the
2 Croatian houses, what did you do then?
3 A. We were in my basement, about 28 of us, women
4 and children. When a shell fell on my stable, then the
5 women and children were wondering where to go. There
6 are some bushes leading from my house to the brook, and
7 we realised that we had to run away.
8 Q. Before we actually describe how you ran away,
9 tell me, is it correct that the stables of Frano
10 Jurcevic and Kristo Bozo, Croats, burned down around
12 A. Yes, yes. Anto was also wounded near his
13 house, by the shed.
14 Q. And was he a civilian?
15 A. Yes, he's a civilian. He's 65 years old.
16 Q. Is it correct that around 10.00 two houses
17 and the shed of Stipan Ramnjak, also a Croat, were
18 burned down?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you see any resistance by Croatian
21 soldiers in Poculica then?
22 A. I couldn't get out of the basement. Only
23 when I really had to get something from upstairs, then
24 I would race out. I saw smoke, and I saw these houses
25 and stables and sheds on fire, then I would run back
1 into the basement.
2 Q. Tell me, at 11.00 what happened to the
4 A. You know, we have these loud speakers, and
5 when the Hodza is up there and then his prayer resounds
6 throughout the village, you know, how they pray to God,
7 and they were shouting from the top of the mosque,
8 "Croats, surrender your arms. If you don't surrender
9 your arms we're going to kill each and every one of you
10 wherever we find you."
11 Q. Did you see Grebenar again? What did he tell
12 you? What were you supposed to do? What was he going
13 to do? Would he negotiate?
14 A. We started running away. We got down there
15 to the brook, and -- and they were shouting that they
16 would slaughter us. And we panicked, and we run down
17 to the brook, and I saw Grebenar down there and he was
19 Q. Before that, the Muslims who were assembled
20 around the mosque, did they send Vlado Ramnjak, a Croat
21 to you?
22 A. He went down the road, and they told him to
23 go down to Grebenar. "Why doesn't Grebenar come to
24 negotiate?" And they said, "If you come back we are
25 going to kill your wife, and your two children and also
1 your disabled brother," who was in a wheelchair.
2 Q. What happened to Vlado Ramnjak then?
3 A. Grebenar and Vlado were standing there, and
4 Grebenar was wounded because a shell fell, and Vlado
5 had to go up to -- back to his wife and children in
7 Q. And did the shell fall as they were
8 negotiating, Vlado Ramnjak, who was sent by the army of
9 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Commander Grebenar? Did
10 the shell fall at that moment?
11 A. I don't know. I'm sure it did fall as soon
12 as Vlado ran away and the other one went down to the
14 Q. About 3.00 p.m., did you see some men,
15 wearing black, going down from the mosque, coming down
16 from the mosque?
17 A. I went out to take my documents from the
18 upper floor and take them down to the basement if we
19 had to flee, to have my documents with me. I saw about
20 150 metres towards the school, everything was black.
21 Lots of people wearing black uniforms, and they had
22 rifles, and they had some sort of scarves, and they
23 were coming towards us and we had to flee.
24 Q. Did you flee in the direction of that red
25 arrow down by the brook, towards Dubravica?
1 A. Yes. There's a stream below my house and we
2 went downstream to Krizancevo Selo.
3 Q. Tell us, please, how many civilians fled and
5 A. Well, about 80 children -- about 100
6 perhaps. There were lots of children as well.
7 Q. And what happened to you when you were
8 fleeing downstream? Were you shelled? Did they shoot
9 at you?
10 A. There was shelling all over the place, and
11 one shell fell by my barn, by my shed, and I took up a
12 child, a 17-month-old child, and its mother took up
13 her -- one of her children who was of school age and a
14 second child who was three years old, and we were down
15 by the stream when the shells began to fall. They fell
16 everywhere. I looked up, I raised my head to see where
17 a shell would be falling, and I fell down, and the
18 child that I was carrying fell down and it broke its
19 arm. It was all I could do to get to Krizancevo Selo.
20 Q. Did you have the feeling that they were
21 shooting at you civilians who were trying to flee by
22 the stream?
23 A. Yes, there was shelling at us. They would --
24 the shells would fall in front us or behind us as we
25 were escaping.
1 Q. Tell us, did you hear them taking prisoners
2 from your village, and did you hear that they were
3 taken away?
4 A. When we got to Krizancevo Selo, and when we
5 said, "Where's this man and where's the other man," and
6 they would tell us they had all been arrested and taken
8 Q. After Krizancevo Selo, where did you go after
10 A. On the 23rd I went to Vitez. A Serb gave me
11 an apartment. He worked with my son, and he called my
12 son to come to his apartment, that he would give up his
13 apartment and take him in, give him accommodation.
14 Q. When you got to Dubravica, Krizancevo Selo,
15 Vitez, all these places, which are very near, did you
16 and the other people talk about what had happened? Did
17 you tell the citizens there how the Muslims attacked
19 A. Well, yes, I did tell these stories but
20 nobody believed me until they had seen the child with
21 the broken arm, and his arm was put in plaster, and
22 then they began to believe us, that they had been, in
23 fact, shooting at us.
24 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber, please, something
25 about the Croat houses, the Croat houses in Poculica.
1 What happened to them?
2 A. They were all set fire to and they were
3 shelled. Everything was destroyed.
4 Q. Were you in your own house -- did you visit
5 your own house after these events?
6 A. Yes, a month and a half ago.
7 Q. And who did you find in your house?
8 A. There's an Askic living there, and Sljivcica
9 and his wife. When I went into my house and said,
10 "Good morning," she said, "Good morning," and I said,
11 "I've just come to see what there is left in my
12 house." She said to me, "There's nothing belonging to
13 you here. Everything has been destroyed. There's
14 nothing." I just said, "I know that everything in the
15 house belongs to me. You are sleeping on my couch.
16 That belongs to me."
17 And when I went on the 11th for the Sesvete
18 celebration, there was nothing in the house, just one
19 couch and one stove. Everything had been taken away.
20 Q. Is there anybody else living in your house?
21 A. Just this man and a woman.
22 Q. Are they Muslims?
23 A. Yes. He's a number from Donja Veceriska.
24 His name is Askic.
25 Q. You're a widow. Did you go to pay your
1 respects to your husband at the cemetery? What
3 A. Well, when the cease-fire was signed we went
4 to the cemetery. Which is located in the Muslim
5 village. Our cemetery is up above, at a height. When
6 we went to the cemetery there was, no tombstones were
7 standing. They had all been knocked down, the chapel
8 had been knocked down, the fence had been destroyed.
9 It was a terrible sight.
10 Q. Did you rebuild something in the cemetery?
11 A. Well, one month later we went back to the
12 cemetery to try and repair the fence and cover the
13 chapel, and we just lined up the tombstones. The
14 stones that had fallen, we set them right. We found
15 that everything had been shelled, little bits and
16 pieces were shattered all over the place.
17 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President. We
18 have finished. We would like to tender in evidence
19 this map which shows Poculica, the arrow showing the
20 direction in which the people fled, and Vitez.
21 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Mrs. Papic, you're
22 going to be asked some questions by the Office of the
23 Prosecutor. Now, that's a normal procedure. I'm sure
24 they explained this to you.
25 Mr. Harmon.
1 Cross-examined by Mr. Harmon:
2 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Papic, my name is Mark
3 Harmon. I'm with the Prosecutor's office. To my right
4 is Mr. Andrew Cayley, and to his right is Mr. Gregory
5 Kehoe. I'm going to ask you just a few questions.
6 First of all, Mrs. Papic, could you describe
7 for me, in a little more detail, your village. I
8 understand it was a mixed village with Croats and
9 Muslims living in the village. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. And how many people lived in your village?
12 A. About 100, with their families, altogether.
13 About 100 people altogether. Men, and women and so
14 forth. There were not many of us Croats, about a
15 hundred, with their families, together with the
17 Q. And the 100 families, was that 100 Croat and
18 Muslim families or was that just 100 Croat families?
19 A. One hundred Croat families. Prnjavor and
20 Poculica, that was together. Vrhovine, that was in
21 Poculica. That was much -- they were much bigger.
22 Q. Now, you had a Muslim neighbour that you told
23 us about by the name of Smajo; is that correct?
24 A. Yes. Yes, that's right. We were divided by
25 a fence.
1 Q. And was the Croat population in the village
2 of Poculica one that was mixed together with the Muslim
3 population or were the two ethnic groups segregated in
4 distinct parts of the village?
5 A. No, they were all together, Prnjavor,
6 Vrhovine and Poculica, all together, and Poculica. And
7 the Croat village was just from my house down there,
8 there were about 50 houses, 50 Croat houses. From my
9 house, up above they were Croats and Muslims. So there
10 would be one Croat house, one Muslim house, one Croat
11 house, one Muslim house, or across the road there would
12 be the Muslims there, and this side the Croats. And
13 this was how it was right up to the mosque. Up by the
14 mosque there was a fence again which separated the
15 Croats by the mosque. The road went towards the mosque
16 and this is where the Croats were, the mosque was
17 here. And then, once again, there were Muslims further
19 Q. So what I understand from your testimony,
20 Mrs. Papic, in some areas the Croats and the Muslims
21 were mixed together, and in some areas of Poculica the
22 Muslims lived separately in their own ethnic group, and
23 in --
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. I'm sorry, let me finish. And in some areas
1 the Croats had a distinct and definable area where they
2 lived separately; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, they all lived together, it was just
4 that they were up by the mosque, both the Croats and
5 the Muslims, up by the mosque. Whereas down below,
6 from my house going lower were the Croat houses, but we
7 were all together. And the municipality was the
8 municipality of Prnjavor, that was our municipality,
9 and it was a Muslim local community, Croats and Muslims
11 Q. Now, Mrs. Papic, in terms of area, in terms
12 of size of the village of Poculica, was it a big
13 village or was it a very small village?
14 A. Well, a sort of medium size village, not a
15 very big village.
16 Q. Did it cover much area? Was it spread out?
17 Were the houses and residences concentrated together in
18 what may be a village centre?
19 A. Well, fences. Here you have the road, then
20 the Muslim houses, then the Croat houses. It was all
21 very near, nearby.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. Divided by these fences.
24 Q. Let me turn your attention to the morning of
25 the 16th of April, and you testified that you received
1 a phone call from your sister who called you and asked
2 you if you had heard any shooting, and your testimony
3 was that you answered, "No, I haven't heard any
4 shooting." Did I understand your testimony correctly?
5 A. I heard shooting, but I didn't know where the
6 shooting was taking place, but I just heard it. Then I
7 went up to fetch my mother and bring her down to us,
8 because she lived alone in her own house.
9 Q. Did you go fetch your mother, or did one of
10 your relatives, one of your children go get your
12 A. No, I went to get my mother. She wasn't far
13 off, she was 50 metres away from me. I went to get my
15 Q. And approximately what time was that on the
16 morning of the 16th of April?
17 A. I don't know, I can't give you the exact
18 time, I didn't look at clock. I can't really tell you
20 Q. Now, once you and your mother returned to
21 your house, did you and the other people in your
22 neighbourhood go down into your basement?
23 A. Yes. There were 28 of us with the children
24 that we had taken in from across the road when it
25 started, when the shooting started. I called out to
1 these women and I said, "Come down to my basement,"
2 because Smajo was close by and all of his family were
3 all close together.
4 So I called out to the them and said, "Let's
5 take cover in my basement, because I have a good
7 Q. Now, you went into your basement sometime in
8 the morning hours; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, that's right, it was morning.
10 Q. And did you remain in your basement until
11 approximately 3.00 in the afternoon when you left your
13 A. Yes, we were in the basement all the time.
14 But I just had to go from the basement up into the
15 upper floor, and I was able to see Poculica burn, and
16 the shelling, and I had to flee to avoid being hit.
17 But when my barn was hit, well, then, that was a real
18 commotion and we decided to flee.
19 Q. Let me ask you, Mrs. Papic, while you were in
20 your house, you went upstairs at least on one occasion,
21 did you leave the basement on more than one occasion to
22 look outside and see what was happening in your
23 village? Or was it only on one occasion that you did
25 A. I went five or six times, I had to go
1 upstairs because everything was upstairs. I had my
2 larder upstairs, and I had to give, go and get food for
3 the children and give the children some food to eat
4 down below. They -- I had to give the children milk,
5 so I had to look for the bottles in the floor upstairs.
6 Q. And when you would go upstairs, would you
7 conduct your particular searches for the milk and
8 searches for the food, would you do that quickly and
9 then return to the basement quickly in order to avoid
10 being hurt?
11 A. Quite certainly, because there was shelling,
12 so you have to flee.
13 Q. Now, I take it I'm correct, Mrs. Papic, you
14 were never in the military and have no experience in
15 military matters, do you?
16 A. No, no, not at all. I'm a housewife. I've
17 got nothing to do with all that.
18 Q. Now, were you, while you were in your house
19 on the 16th of April, and in the basement for the
20 majority of the time, were you able to determine where
21 the shells that were being fired on the village of
22 Poculica were coming from?
23 A. Tolovici were over here, and they were
24 Muslims. Here we have Vrhovine and Prnjavor, once
25 again Muslim. Sljivcica was over there, Muslims,
1 again, only Muslims, Muslim inhabitants. And
2 Vjetrenice behind us, and it came from all sides.
3 So when a shell is being launched, you can't
4 see exactly where it's coming from. But when we were
5 in the stream, in the brook, from Sljivcica we could
6 hear shots coming from Sljivcica, and then the shell
7 would fall in the stream where we were.
8 Q. Mrs. Papic, I will come to the time when you
9 were in the stream in a few minutes in my questions.
10 But while you were in the house in your basement, were
11 you able to determine where the shells were coming
13 A. I would go out and hear it coming from
14 Sljivcica, from up above towards the Croat village on
15 the houses.
16 Q. Were you aware, Mrs. Papic, that on the
17 morning of the 16th HVO forces were shelling the
18 village of Poculica from the town of Vitez?
19 A. No. A shell cannot come from Vitez, it can
20 come from Sljivcica, Sljivcica is nearer.
21 Q. Were you aware that the HVO was shelling the
22 village of Poculica on the morning of the 16th with a
23 40 millimetre anti-aircraft gun and a six barrel
24 multi-rocket launcher from Gradina?
25 A. I don't know about that, I don't know
1 anything about that.
2 Q. Were you aware that on the 18th of April the
3 HVO was shelling the village of Poculica?
4 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
5 JUDGE JORDA: I think you already asked that
6 question, Mr. Harmon. The witness already answered.
7 MR. HARMON:
8 Q. Now, after you left your basement you and the
9 other people who had been in your basement fled down a
10 creek and you went in the direction of Krizancevo Selo;
11 is that correct?
12 A. Krizancevo Selo, Krizanac Krizancevo Selo.
13 Q. And that was on the 16th of April, 1993.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. After the 16th of April, 1993, when was the
16 first time that you returned to Poculica?
17 A. We returned when the cease-fire had been
18 signed. As soon as the cease-fire had been signed we
19 went to the cemetery, to our cemetery. The cease-fire
20 had been signed, and I didn't go after that until there
21 was a mass said at the cemetery. That was one year
23 Q. So when you say the cease-fire, are you
24 talking about when the war between the Muslims and the
25 Croats ended? Is that what you're talking about?
1 A. Yes, yes, that's it.
2 Q. And it's at that point in time when you saw
3 some of the houses that had belonged to the Croats had
4 been damaged or destroyed; is that right?
5 A. I saw immediately when we began to flee. I
6 saw this immediately, because it was a hill and you can
7 see the Croats houses, and I could see the Croat houses
8 burning down below as soon as we started to flee.
9 Q. Did you see any Muslim houses burning or any
10 Muslim barns burning?
11 A. They were higher up above. There was a
12 plateau, there was a plain down below, so you could see
13 this part while we were fleeing.
14 Q. And could you see the Muslim houses burning
15 and the Muslim barns burning as well?
16 A. They were up above, here, so you can't
17 really. They are up above, so you can't really, so
18 you're going down the slope and come to the Croat
19 villages, and so you could see these when we were
21 Q. But in your village, when you left,
22 Mrs. Papic, did you see any Muslim houses or barns on
23 fire or damaged?
24 A. I couldn't have been there, as I've just told
25 you. I couldn't have gone out to see this, because
1 they were up above me; whereas, Asim and the others
2 near me, that remained intact.
3 Q. Now, was your house that you returned to a
4 year later, was your house destroyed by some force,
5 either shells or fire, or was it intact?
6 A. The shed was destroyed, the doors were taken
7 away, the bathroom had been destroyed, there was no
8 water. That's it, when I went into the house, that's
9 what I found.
10 Q. But your house was standing; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, the house was standing, and the man went
12 to live there.
13 Q. And in your immediate neighbourhood where you
14 lived, Mrs. Papic, after you returned, after the
15 cease-fire, were there other Croat houses that were
16 still standing in your village?
17 A. Yes, there were. There was my brother's
18 house, two of them. This was a Muslim one, and up
19 above a Croat house. Two brothers, Muslims, on this
20 side, and all the houses were standing and people were
21 living in them.
22 Q. So not all the houses that belonged to the
23 Croats in Poculica were damaged or destroyed as a
24 result of the conflict on the 16th?
25 A. No, no. Yes, not all of them. The upper
1 part remained, the Croats and the Muslims, those
2 houses, except for Stipan Ramnjak, his house burned
3 down, both his houses and the barn. Only his house was
4 burned between the Muslims and Croats. Whereas, from
5 my house down the slope, which is only the Croat
6 houses, those houses were shelled.
7 Q. Now, did you know somebody by the name of
8 Redzo Bektas? Pardon my pronunciation. Is that a name
9 that's familiar to you? Let me try pronouncing it
10 again. Do you know a family by the name of Bektas?
11 A. No, we had a Bektas, but he is in Vitez, and
12 he was in the local community in Prnjavor. But he went
13 away a long time ago.
14 So we had this municipality with the Croats
15 and Muslims and that was that particular Bektas.
16 Q. Mrs. Papic, you and your friends who were in
17 the basement fled, but were there other Croats who
18 remained in Poculica after the 16th of April?
19 A. I don't know. Those who were in prison
20 stayed, but those who could run, when they realised
21 what was going on, there was shooting and they were
22 shooting all over, everybody escaped down to the
23 stream. And we got up to Krizancevo Selo at 6.00 only
24 from the stream down there.
25 Q. You said there were 28 people in your group
1 who fled, and earlier in your testimony you said there
2 were about 100 Croat families who lived in the village
3 of Poculica.
4 A. Twenty-eight women and children in my
5 basement. Women and children in my basement, I did not
6 say anything else.
7 Q. Now, earlier in your testimony you said there
8 were about 100 families, Croat families who lived in
9 your village. Did some of those Croats from Poculica
10 remain in Poculica after the 16th of April?
11 A. Those who were imprisoned. Half of them
12 stayed on, and the other half fled.
13 Q. After they were released from prison, did
14 they return to Poculica?
15 A. No, not a single one has returned to
17 Q. Mrs. Papic, thank you very much.
18 MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions,
19 Mr. President and Your Honours.
20 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, do you want to
21 exercise your right of redirect? Do you have
22 additional questions.
23 MR. NOBILO: Two or three, very briefly.
24 JUDGE JORDA: I was thinking about the break,
25 let me consult with my colleagues.
1 JUDGE JORDA: Go ahead, Mr. Nobilo, try to
2 finish before the break
3 Re-examined by Mr. Nobilo:
4 Q. Mrs. Papic, I would like to put two or three
5 questions to you. Tell us, please, after the war broke
6 out between the Muslims and the Croats, apart from
7 those who were arrested, did a single Croat stay in
9 A. Only those who were killed, I'm talking about
10 Bozo Kristo, I don't know of anyone else who stayed on.
11 Q. And those who were arrested, did they go back
12 to Poculica or did they go back to Vitez?
13 A. Afterwards, after the exchange they came to
15 Q. And tell us, Mrs. Papic, later on, when you
16 came to Poculica, did you see a single Muslim house
17 that had been set on fire?
18 A. No, not a single one. Where we passed, not a
19 single Muslim house had been set on fire or shelled,
20 not a single shell had fallen on any one of them.
21 Q. And tell me, that day when the shelling took
22 place and when you fled after that, did a single shell
23 fall on Muslim houses, on the Muslim part of the
25 A. They are up above me and I couldn't see up
1 there. Because as I was running away, this is the way
2 my house is, this is where the creek is, and from here,
3 I could see our Croat houses over there, you know. And
4 as I was running, I would turn around and I would see
5 the smoke coming from the Croat houses down there, and
6 I saw they were on fire and they had been shelled, and
7 I saw these shells too.
8 Q. And could you hear any explosions around the
9 Muslim part of the village, around the mosque? Were
10 there explosions or not?
11 A. No, I don't know. I don't know. I don't
13 Q. You said that the purely Croatian part of the
14 village was fully destroyed and in the mixed part of
15 the village the Croat houses remained standing except
16 for the two or three that you mentioned. Who lives in
17 these Croat houses that were intact that are in the
18 mixed part of the Poculica village?
19 A. All of them are Muslims. My brother's two
20 houses. All over it is Muslims living there now, and
21 in my house there are Muslims living.
22 Q. And my last question. Please tell the Court
23 whether a single Croat has returned to Poculica until
24 this present day, now that you're testifying before
25 this Court.
1 A. No, we weren't even told to come back, and
2 they weren't asking us to come back, either.
3 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President, I have
5 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Riad you had a question?
6 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Good morning, Mrs. Papic. The Prosecutor,
8 Mr. Mark Harmon, asked you if you knew if your village
9 of Poculica was shelled from Vitez on the morning of
10 the 16th of April, 1993, and it was also shelled from
11 Gradina; do you know anything about that, about where
12 the shelling came from? Did any people tell you, or
13 are you just guessing where it came from?
14 A. Nobody told us, but it cannot reach from
15 Vitez to Poculica. I mean, you cannot shell from
16 Vitez. It's only from Tolovici that are nearby, and
17 you can hear it, also, when it is fired from Tolovici.
18 JUDGE RIAD: So, you don't think the
19 Prosecutor was right when he told you that the shelling
20 was from Vitez and from Gradina, you refuse this?
21 A. Of course I refuse it. You can't, Sljivcica
22 was nearer, so when they shoot from Sljivcica we can
23 hear it in the basement. We know exactly that it is
24 going to fall here. And where is Vitez? I mean, way
1 JUDGE RIAD: Poculica was in a Muslim area,
2 all the villages around it were Muslims?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE RIAD: And how far was it from Vitez
5 and from Gradina?
6 A. That I don't know. You're asking me, but I
7 don't know.
8 JUDGE RIAD: The villages around you, since
9 the villages are close, were they also shelled; or was
10 it just your village which was shelled?
11 A. I know that they were in Sljivcica and that
12 they were shelling only Poculica. The Muslims were at
13 Sljivcica, and then over there at Tolovici and
14 Vrhovine, and they're nearby, and you can hear all of
15 it coming from there, and you can hear and feel this
16 fall on the Croatian houses in the Croatian village.
17 JUDGE RIAD: The other villages around you
18 which are close, were they also shelled, the other
19 Muslim villages?
20 A. I don't know, you can't see that. When
21 there's only hills around, you can't see the houses.
22 JUDGE RIAD: So you didn't see anything
23 around you?
24 A. No, nothing.
25 JUDGE RIAD: Thank you.
1 JUDGE JORDA: Judge Shahabuddeen.
2 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: On the morning did you
3 have breakfast?
4 A. No way. Nobody had a thing.
5 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: When your daughter rang
6 you and asked you if you had heard any shooting, was
7 that before or after the time when you would normally
8 have breakfast?
9 A. She woke me up, because I like to sleep late
10 in the morning. I haven't got a thing to do, so I just
11 sleep in late. And she woke me up saying, "Get up,
12 can't you hear the shooting?" And as I got up, then I
13 heard the shooting. And she told me to go to my
14 mother's so my mother could stay with me.
15 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Was it daylight or was
16 it dark?
17 A. It was daylight, 8.00, I think, I'm sure. It
18 was daylight.
19 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: When you went to Vitez,
20 can you tell us, what were the conditions there? Was
21 anything very special going on in or around Vitez?
22 A. I don't know. I don't know, I didn't really
23 pay any attention. I mean, I got this apartment,
24 naturally, and I tried to settle in.
25 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: You didn't see any
1 shooting happening at Vitez?
2 A. I didn't, then, not then.
3 JUDGE SHAHABUDDEEN: Thank you very much.
4 JUDGE JORDA: We're almost finished
5 Mrs. Papic. Is your village far away from Ahmici?
6 A. Yes, yes, our village is far away from
8 JUDGE JORDA: Have you heard about what
9 happened in Ahmici?
10 A. We didn't hear a thing then, when we were
11 running away. We were in creeks and basements and we
12 didn't hear a thing about it.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Well, perhaps not on that date,
14 but later on, later on, did you hear about what had
15 happened in Ahmici?
16 A. I didn't, I didn't go out. I didn't go
17 anywhere. I was just trying to settle in.
18 JUDGE JORDA: So you've never heard about
19 Ahmici and about the massacres that took place there?
20 A. I didn't have any interest, you know. I
21 didn't go out, I didn't have a TV set or a radio,
22 nothing. I didn't have a thing when I became a
23 refugee, and I couldn't find out anything.
24 JUDGE JORDA: I have one last question. You
25 really don't have to answer it.
1 What made you come to testify in this trial
2 of an accused that you don't really know? What was the
3 reason that you came?
4 If you don't want to answer that question,
5 don't answer.
6 I haven't heard your answer, I'm sorry.
7 A. No. I -- nothing really made me. I mean, I
8 just wanted to say what had happened to us.
9 JUDGE JORDA: Very well.
10 All right. We thank you for having come
11 here, for having taken such a long trip to tell us
12 about what happened in your village. You're now going
13 to be escorted out of the courtroom. The Judges are
14 going to withdraw and we'll take a break until noon,
15 and you can go home. I hope that you will find some
16 peace when you get back.
17 The Court stands adjourned. We will start
18 again at noon.
19 --- Recess taken at 11.37 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 12.05 p.m.
21 JUDGE JORDA: We'll now resume the hearing.
22 Have the accused brought in.
23 (The accused entered court)
24 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo.
25 MR. NOBILO: We're waiting for the witness.
1 The witness is Slavko Katava.
2 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. I'm looking for the
3 summary. Here it is, the summary in French.
4 Registrar, if you would give the English copies to my
6 All right. We'll have Mr. Slavko Katava
7 brought in, who is not covered by protective measures.
8 You don't have the date of birth?
9 MR. HAYMAN: We have it and we've given it to
10 the Prosecutor this morning, Mr. President, just a few
11 moments ago.
12 JUDGE JORDA: That's fine
13 (The witness entered court)
14 MR. HAYMAN: -- of September, 1956.
15 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Katava, please give us your
16 name, your given names, your date and place of birth,
17 your profession and your current residence. After
18 that, you will take an oath and then you may be
20 All right. Mr. Katava, go ahead, please. We
21 are listening to you.
22 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, my name is Slavko
23 Katava. I was born in 1956 in Donja Polje, the
24 municipality of Busovaca. I reside in Busovaca. I am
25 a policeman by profession. That's it.
1 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Now, you will take
2 your oath. You will read the oath in your own
3 language, the oath which has been given to you.
4 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
5 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
7 WITNESS: SLAVKO KATAVA
8 JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Katava, you may
9 be seated. You're going to answer questions that you
10 will be asked. You've agreed to participate in the
11 trial of the -- trial of General Blaskic, who is in
12 this courtroom.
13 You will first -- I'm sure it's been
14 explained to you, first answer Mr. Nobilo's questions.
15 Is that right? Yes. Then you will be questioned by
16 the Office of the Prosecutor, and the Judges' questions
17 will complete your testimony.
18 Mr. Nobilo, you may proceed.
19 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Examined by Mr. Nobilo:
21 Q. Mr. Katava, explain to the court, please,
22 what schools you have completed and when.
23 A. Your Honour, I went to Hesa (phoen) Primary
24 School in Busovaca. After that I went to the police
25 school in Sarajevo, and I have been working in the
1 police force since 1974. I worked in the police
2 station of Teslic. I worked there up until 1977, when
3 I was transferred to the police station in Busovaca
4 where I work today.
5 Q. Tell us, please, you have been a policeman
6 throughout your career?
7 A. Yes. Since I finished school I've been a
9 Q. How many years is that?
10 A. It is 26 years now.
11 Q. Starting out from the disintegration of
12 Yugoslavia in 1991 and the first democratic elections,
13 can you explain to the Trial Chamber what the
14 organisation of the police force in Busovaca was like?
15 First of all, within the frameworks of what Ministry,
16 and what was the transformation that took place later
18 A. After the first democratic elections were
19 held, the police force was headed by the party people,
20 the people of the victorious party, and the police
21 still functioned in the old setup, that is to say, as a
22 police station for Busovaca with its security services
23 in Zenica and the Internal Affairs Ministry at the
24 level of the republic.
25 Q. After that, can you tell us when the police
1 force was reorganised, and when the police force was
2 organised on -- in a new way in the -- and the police
3 station in Busovaca?
4 A. That time -- at the time it was obvious that
5 the police force was not able to function as it had
6 hitherto. There were divisions. The Muslims went to
7 Muslim policemen, whereas the Croat population would
8 contact the Croat police, and so the police department
9 in Travnik was set up for an area covering the
10 majority -- a majority Croat population.
11 Q. So that your immediate superiors were the
12 police department in Travnik. Can you tell us, at the
13 police department in Travnik, what police stations
14 belonged to the Travnik headquarters?
15 A. The police stations of Fojnica, Kresevo,
16 Kiseljak, Busovaca, Vitez, Novi Travnik, Travnik,
17 Bugojno, Gorni Vakuf, and I think Jajce.
18 Q. Did this reorganisation coincide with the
19 introduction of the HVO civilian authorities in
21 A. Yes, I think it coincided with that.
22 Q. Today you and your police station are once
23 again part of a united federal police force which
24 includes Muslims and Croats alike; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, that is correct. We have a federal
1 police force for the Central Bosnia region.
2 Q. If we go back to 1992/1993, how were the
3 appointments made? Who appointed, for example, the
4 commander, the Chief of Police? Who determined who
5 this would be; who would be a policeman and who
7 A. Well, it was the municipal authorities or
8 parties which put forward names, nominated individuals,
9 and the Minister for Internal Affairs in Mostar made
10 the ultimate decision as to appointments.
11 Q. All the institutions that you enumerated, the
12 police station and the police department, the Ministry
13 for Internal Affairs and the government, of course, of
14 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosnia, were the
15 civilian organs of power and authority for the Croatian
16 Community of Herceg-Bosna?
17 A. Yes, they were.
18 Q. On the basis of what laws did you function in
19 1992 and 1993?
20 A. We worked according to the old laws of the
21 Social Republic of Bosniz-Herzegovina, which we took
22 over all the regulations and official gazettes for the
23 area, the territory of Herceg-Bosnia.
24 Q. So apart from the formal changes that took
25 place, are you saying that no criminal laws and
1 criminal codes changed in actual fact?
2 A. That's right. We worked according to the
3 codes that we took over when taking over the documents.
4 Q. If from this perspective today, you look back
5 to 1992 and 1993 and you compare these years to the
6 years before the war in Bosnia in 1989, 1990, 1991, you
7 were a policeman during that time, and you are once
8 again a policeman, and if you compare them to the
9 present day, what would you say? Was there an increase
10 in criminality in the war years compared to peacetime?
11 A. The system functioned and the police was able
12 to perform its duties, but then criminality in all its
13 forms showed a marked increase. Today criminality is
14 going down because the institutions are beginning to
15 function again.
16 Q. Tell us, what were the causes of the increase
17 in criminality in 1993, because those are the years
18 that we're interested in.
19 A. One of the main causes of criminality was
20 that the institutions of the system had broken down.
21 The institutions were not able to function properly.
22 There were no inspections, there were no courts of law
23 functioning properly. Everything was in disarray and
24 had ceased to function, and this was a breeding ground
25 for crime.
1 Q. Tell us, please, whether there were other
2 causes. What about weapons and the population? How
3 could a civilian, before the war, come by weapons of
4 any kind and what happened during the war?
5 A. Well, Your Honour, before the war there was
6 set procedure, legal procedure which had to be followed
7 in some -- if an individual wanted to carry weapons.
8 He would have to have a certificate, he would have to
9 have a medical certificate and his weapon had to be
10 registered with the police force. But in 1992 and
11 1993, people began to arm themselves through various
12 channels illegally, by underground means, and this was
13 not a controlled process, and it took place en masse,
14 because the war was imminent.
15 Q. Before the war, if somebody were to purchase
16 weapons without the necessary certificates and permits,
17 the police would take these -- confiscate these
18 permits. Why in 1992 and 1993 did the police turn a
19 blind eye to what was going on? It did not take away
20 and confiscate the weapons?
21 A. Because it was already a mass process, and
22 the authorities could not come by the necessary weapons
23 they needed and arm the people. So in a situation of
24 that kind, the police could not confiscate weapons and
25 it turned a blind eye to the fact that people were
1 beginning to stock up on weapons.
2 Q. And the reason was the war, because people
3 felt they needed to defend themselves?
4 A. Yes, that's right. People would sell their
5 cow to buy a rifle if they thought this was necessary.
6 Q. You said that the authorities did not
7 confiscate weapons. Does that mean the weapons were
8 not confiscated either from the Croats or from the
10 A. Yes, that's right. We didn't take them away
11 from Muslims or Croats.
12 Q. Tell the Court, please, what happened to the
13 smuggling activities and illegal trading of arms, and
14 how was this linked to the rise of crime?
15 A. Everything ceased to function. There were
16 not -- we did not have the necessary consumer goods in
17 our shops, so that smuggling became rampant. Goods
18 were being bought and sold, people were making a lot of
19 money buying goods cheaply and selling them at
20 astronomical prices, and so they began to reap economic
21 power, and crime was on the rise.
22 Q. So these people who resorted to smuggling and
23 reaped benefits from this, they were criminals, in
24 fact, they had acted contrary to the law?
25 A. Yes. They had already armed themselves.
1 They were criminals, individuals or groups, and they
2 had weapons and they committed various crimes.
3 Q. As a small police station did you have any
4 aid and assistance with regard to professionals or in
5 any other way from the central police authorities
6 either from Sarajevo or Bosnia-Herzegovina, or from the
7 police force in Mostar?
8 A. No. We had no professional help whatsoever.
9 Quite simply, we were left to fend for ourselves as a
10 police force. We had no material or professional
12 Q. And the central authorities, did that
13 function properly or did the municipality begin to act
14 like a State within a State?
15 A. The central authorities ceased to function.
16 The system was disrupted. There were barriers. In
17 Central Bosnia each municipality looked after itself
18 and was a small State in its own right.
19 Q. There is always a certain amount of civic
20 discipline to a greater or lesser extent. How did the
21 citizens, how did the inhabitants react when they found
22 that their institutions were not functioning properly?
23 A. What happened was that the citizens
24 themselves began to alter their conduct, and people who
25 had never engaged in crime suddenly became criminals.
1 They had weapons, and the circumstances that prevailed
2 influenced people to change their behaviour and
3 contact. They were frightened for their lives. They
4 engaged in crime, looting and so on.
5 Q. Let us now take a look at what the situation
6 was like in the police force. At one point the police
7 differentiated -- the Muslims left. Can you tell us
8 how many Muslims left, how many Croats remained and
9 what the reason for all this was?
10 A. Well, the police split up at that moment when
11 the Muslim policemen, together with their leadership,
12 moved to the territory where the Muslims were the
13 majority population. That was in Kacuni. At that time
14 we were half, half, approximately, and 58 per cent of
15 us, the Croats, remained in the police station in
16 Busovaca, 50 per cent of the Muslims went to Kacuni.
17 Q. And from that day on, in the territory of the
18 municipality of Busovaca, there have been two police
19 stations; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, that's correct. There is a police
21 station in Busovaca with Croats and a police station in
22 Kacuni with the Muslims.
23 Q. So you were halved as policemen in Busovaca.
24 In addition to police work, are you in charge of some
25 military matters?
1 A. Yes. Most of our work was channelled towards
2 defence, and most of the policemen wanted to defend the
3 frontlines and made themselves available.
4 Q. Tell me, what about trained policemen and the
5 technical equipment you needed and the financial
6 resources you needed. What was the situation like in
7 your police station?
8 A. The situation in the police station in
9 Busovaca was very bad. There were only three or four
10 of us who were trained policemen, who had completed the
11 relevant schools, and the rest had no education related
12 to that.
13 Q. And what about vehicles, gasoline?
14 A. We did not have any material resources. We
15 had one vehicle, but we didn't have any gasoline for
16 it, so we tried to make do.
17 Q. And what about expertise? For example, the
18 institutes for studying blood traces and fingerprints,
19 et cetera, did you have anything of that sort in the
20 territory of Busovaca?
21 A. No. All of these are small police stations,
22 and even if such expertise, resources did exist, this
23 was only in Zenica or in the Ministry in Sarajevo. We
24 did not have a lab, and we didn't even have the
25 simplest devices for taking fingerprints let alone
1 anything else.
2 Q. Did you have someone who could conduct a
3 post-mortem and in this way help in terms of finding
4 perpetrators of criminal offences?
5 A. No. We did not have a forensic expert of
6 this nature. The only such expert was in Zenica, and
7 he was not available to us then. This man still works
8 as a forensic expert, and his services are still called
9 upon, but he couldn't do a thing for us at that time.
10 This is Mr. Turkic.
11 Q. But he was not accessible to you because of
12 the war, right?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. And from this time distance and on the basis
15 of your overall experience, if you analyse the crime
16 that you explained to us that became rampant, how could
17 you qualify it? Was it ethnically coloured, so to
18 speak? Was it aimed against one national group only?
19 Did the criminals come from one national group only?
20 Could you tell us something more about that?
21 A. Your Honours, all criminal offences are
22 against victims irrespective of ethnicity. Crimes were
23 committed against Croats and Muslims.
24 Q. Are you asserting that crime had its own
25 logic of crime irrespective of interethnic relations?
1 A. Yes, yes. According to its own law, it would
2 have nothing to do with ethnicity. Victims were not
3 specially selected.
4 Q. At one time you introduced a curfew in
5 Busovaca. Why was this done?
6 A. A curfew was introduced in order to prevent
7 crime and to control the movement of criminals, and for
8 security and safety reasons in general.
9 Q. Also, your police station introduced a
10 certain procedure in respect of leaving Busovaca and
11 coming back to Busovaca. Could you explain to the
12 Court what this procedure was, if a citizen,
13 irrespective of his ethnicity, wished to leave
15 A. Any citizen who wanted to leave Busovaca
16 would come to the police station and make statement to
17 an authorised official stating the reasons why he
18 wished to leave Busovaca, and then he was asked whether
19 he was being mistreated by someone, whether he wants to
20 leave the area of Busovaca of his own volition or for
21 other reasons. Precisely with a view to preventing the
22 mistreatment of citizens by individuals and groups.
23 Q. To the best your recollection when and under
24 what circumstances did the largest number of citizens
25 of Muslim ethnicity leave Busovaca?
1 A. Well, three or four days before the conflict
2 broke out in January in 1993. Most of them, 90 per
3 cent of the Muslim women and children left Busovaca and
4 went to Zenica or to Kacuni to compact Muslim
5 territories, so to speak, the majority of Muslim
7 Q. Did somebody expel them then or did they
8 leave voluntarily? If they left voluntarily, what was
9 the reason for that, to the best of your knowledge?
10 A. Nobody had made them do it. Only women and
11 children left, and military-aged men stayed on in
12 Busovaca. I think that they had received instructions
13 from the Muslim leadership, which was not in Busovaca
14 at all. They were already in Kacuni and they were
15 instructed to remove their wives and children.
16 Q. Why, why withdraw them three or four days
17 before the war?
18 A. Probably they were planning an attack, I
19 don't know, probably for that reason. Because rumour
20 had it that Busovaca would be attacked by the Mujahedin
21 and the people from Krajina.
22 Q. After this mass exodus from Busovaca, you say
23 90 per cent of the Muslim population had left before
24 the Muslims attacked in January 1993. After that, were
25 there any other big waves of departures of Muslims, or
1 was it all on an individual basis mostly?
2 A. It was mostly on an individual basis, there
3 were no more mass exoduses.
4 Q. If we disregard these 90 per cent who left,
5 these civilians who left before the war broke out in
6 Busovaca, what was the reason for which part of these
7 remaining 10 per cent left during these remaining few
8 months, I mean, the first few months of 1993, why?
9 A. Well, part of them probably left out of fear,
10 because they were afraid. Also, Croats came from other
11 areas because they were afraid there, areas that were
12 under Muslim control. And some left of their own
13 initiative, just like that. People were probably
15 Q. You say the people were afraid. Was this
16 fear realistic? Was this well-founded fear? Did they
17 have reasons for this?
18 A. No, they were equally protected, like all
19 citizens in Busovaca, as regards the police.
20 Q. And you said that they had equal protection
21 on the part of police, but was this protection
22 sufficient? Was there violence and crime in spite of
23 that directed against the Muslims?
24 A. Well, there were criminal acts that were
25 committed against Muslims and the Croats, and within
1 the scope of our responsibilities we took action, we
2 tried to prevent this and we tried to protect people to
3 the best of our ability.
4 Q. Mr. Katava, could you please describe to the
5 Court what the procedure was, for example, when your
6 police station would receive a report saying that an
7 explosive had gone off somewhere or, for example, a
8 fire breaks out somewhere? What was the procedure
9 involved when you received information of this kind?
10 A. Well, the usual professional procedure. In a
11 police station this is a regular thing, and the officer
12 on duty receives this information and then an
13 investigation team is set up which goes and makes an
14 inquest, and then a file is made and then operations
15 take place in order to find the perpetrator.
16 If an NN perpetrator, an unknown perpetrator
17 is involved, there is, nevertheless, a file opened, and
18 one always had the obligation to do something about
19 this file and to find the perpetrators.
20 Q. And you would also submit a report to the
21 Prosecutor; right?
22 A. Yes, we would submit reports to the
23 Prosecutor, both if the perpetrator was known or
24 unknown, that was our duty.
25 Q. Tell us, in your practice do you know of a
1 single case that your police station received
2 information on some violence, on a criminal act or
3 something, and would not act if you heard that the
4 victim was a Muslim?
5 A. This did not happen. We always intervened
6 the same way, regardless of whether this was a Muslim
7 or a Croat.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, now we would like
10 to distribute a set of documents.
11 THE REGISTRAR: This is D443.
12 MR. HAYMAN: The last Defence Exhibit was
13 449, I thought, the map used by the last witness, 449.
14 THE REGISTRAR: No, there was an error, the
15 interpreter made a mistake, it was 442. That was the
17 MR. HAYMAN: Very well, we premarked this as
18 450. Could this be premarked as 450 and we will fill
19 in 453 (sic) through 449 in the coming days, with the
20 Court's permission?
21 THE REGISTRAR: All right, it could be 450
22 and use the other numbers later. No problem with
24 JUDGE JORDA: No objection? If that's going
25 to make things easier.
1 MR. NOBILO: I have these for the
2 translators, two groups, French and English.
3 Mr. President, before we move on to this set,
4 I would like to explain how this file has been
6 We have chapters that are marked with letters
7 A through K. In chapter A, there are crimes against
8 Muslims. Chapter B are documents that speak about
9 criminal offences against Croats. In chapter C are,
10 that is the police file related to damages to the
11 mosque in Busovaca. In D are documents speaking of
12 Muslims as perpetrators of criminal offences. In
13 chapter E -- too fast?
14 The next one is F, are statements of Muslims
15 who are leaving Busovaca. G includes statements made
16 by Croats who came to Busovaca. H are reports of the
17 Busovaca police station. And I is information about
18 Croats who fled to Busovaca from territories controlled
19 by the BH army. In K are destroyed Croat houses in
20 Busovaca on the territory under the control of the army
21 of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
22 And now, I'm going to -- also, every document
23 in its Croatian version is marked with number 1 through
24 98, that is the last document. And in this way we wish
25 to mark the area with a letter, and the numbers marked
1 specific documents. Before we move on to these
2 documents, I wish to ask our witness the following.
3 Q. Did you see all these documents and did you
4 confirm to me that all these documents were written in
5 the police station in Busovaca, except those related to
6 J and K, referring to the houses that were destroyed?
7 A. Yes, I saw these documents. These documents
8 were signed by my colleagues and I know the text
9 myself. Some of them I wrote myself, and the others I
10 can recognise by the signatures and the institution
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we are not going
14 to go through all these documents, they speak for
15 themselves, but we have one problem, and that is under
16 H, we have reports of the police station in Busovaca.
17 This summer we had these reports translated, but due to
18 certain circumstances we did not obtain translations.
19 So I suggest that we, nevertheless, use these
20 reports, they are very important. We see these
21 documents condensed in this report, so I would just
22 like to read a few sentences from each report which I
23 consider to be relevant. If you agree with this, all
24 other documents are translated.
25 JUDGE JORDA: I don't know if there is an
1 objection from the Prosecutor. Mr. Cayley? I know
2 that is a lot of documents for you.
3 MR. CAYLEY: The whole file is a very large
4 file, Mr. President, and the documents that my learned
5 friend is referring to which he states have been
6 translated are only provided in the Bosnian Croat
7 language, so neither I nor my colleagues can actually
8 read any of them. It will make cross-examination of
9 the witness extremely difficult.
10 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley, excuse me. Perhaps
11 I misinterpreted what Mr. Nobilo said. If I understood
12 correctly, all the documents have been translated into
13 English, at least, except for the documents from the
14 binder H, for which there is neither French nor an
15 English version. Did I interpret you correctly?
16 Your difficulty, Mr. Cayley, stems from the
17 fact that, first of all, it's a very large file, and in
18 addition, in that file there are statements that are in
20 As regards the first point, Mr. Cayley, this
21 is not the first time that one of the parties is faced
22 with a big file. All right. Mr. Hayman is pulling out
23 456, I know, I know, I was sure you were going to pull
24 that one out.
25 MR. HAYMAN: With no witness, Mr. President.
1 The Prosecutor produced no witness, no witness, when
2 they tendered exhibits 406 and 456. So I don't --
3 well, I'm still listening to my learned friend, I'll
4 put it that way.
5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, you see, I know you
6 so well I can predict what you're going to say. Here I
7 am with my colleagues in order to be sure that the
8 conduct of the proceedings is just and equitable.
9 This is not the first time that either of the
10 parties has given many documents to the other party,
11 and I'm sure that if there is a translation you will
12 try to do as best you can. And if one day you have to,
13 you need to bring the witness back, you can do so.
14 But for the time being, I think it is the
15 second question which causes some problem, that is,
16 there are documents that are not translated either into
17 French or English. Let me point out that the one who
18 should complain the most is the presiding Judge, and I
19 complain very rarely, I protest very rarely.
20 I think we are going to do our best. As
21 regards the Croatian documents, perhaps it would not be
22 enough to read only a few lines, Mr. Nobilo. Perhaps
23 that would not be sufficient. All right, we'll see.
24 Perhaps you should read the document and we have a
25 sight translation for it. Mr. Cayley?
1 MR. CAYLEY: One last point, Mr. President.
2 If we're going to go ahead with these documents and
3 with this witness, then the Prosecutor would wish to
4 reserve their right to call the witness back to be
5 cross-examined on these documents when we have a
7 JUDGE JORDA: Well, that's exactly what I had
8 suggested. Mr. Hayman?
9 MR. HAYMAN: I think there is a distinction
10 to be drawn, Mr. President. If the witness testifies
11 about a document, a document that isn't translated into
12 English or French, and the Prosecutor feels he has been
13 denied a reasonable ability to cross-examine, that
14 seems to me to be one thing.
15 But if the Prosecutor is saying that these
16 are voluminous documents and so he should not, he has a
17 right to bring the witness back to cross-examine him as
18 to documents that the witness doesn't testify about,
19 then I think that would be asymmetrical with respect to
20 the situation the Defence found itself in when the
21 Prosecutor produced voluminous documents, represented
22 that they got them all from a government, even though
23 they aren't documents authored by that government, we
24 raised the question, "Is there a right of
25 cross-examination" and the Court said, and we respect
1 the ruling, but the ruling was these documents come
2 from a source identified by the Prosecutor, end of
3 procedure. Documents admitted, no cross-examination as
4 to those documents.
5 So we didn't have to bring this witness to
6 present these records from the Busovaca civil police
7 office. We could have simply tendered them, just as
8 the Prosecutor did in his case, and I ask that that be
9 kept in mind within this debate and discussion.
10 JUDGE JORDA: At that time you did not ask
11 that the witness be brought back. First of all, there
12 was no witness. There were documents that were
13 provided; isn't that correct? There was no witness, so
14 that's true, you had documents.
15 And then there was an interruption of a few
16 days, and you had the time to prepare yourselves.
17 Mr. Harmon and Mr. Cayley simply had to present
18 documents and he gave you a file. It was simply a
19 submission of documents.
20 The difference -- I'm just trying to say to
21 you that we Judges aren't practising any kind of
22 discriminatory measures. We are faced with a somewhat
23 new situation. We have a witness and documents.
24 In the documents contained in 456, I don't
25 know how many documents there were, the question was
1 somewhat different, there was no witness. The
2 Prosecutor had spent a day, or it was an afternoon,
3 when there were no witnesses to present, and he spent
4 that time presenting the documents, and they were then
5 given to the Trial Chamber.
6 Today the situation is different. That is,
7 the witness is here, has been here, will be here for a
8 few hours, and you're presenting documents. It is not
9 at all a question of the Judges acting in a
10 discriminatory fashion. We're simply trying to find
11 the best way to move forward.
12 There's another solution possible, if you
13 like, we might interrupt the testimony now and have the
14 witness come back tomorrow afternoon, and then during
15 that time Mr. Cayley will have the time to familiarise
16 himself with the documents. What are you trying to
17 tell me, Mr. Registrar?
18 THE REGISTRAR: This is for information as
19 regards the presentation of documents 456 and 457 of
20 the Prosecutor. You have the day when it was
21 presented, that is in July.
22 JUDGE JORDA: So you see, Mr. Hayman, you can
23 be reassured, thanks to the diligence of our registrar,
24 I note the comments that were made on Exhibits 456 and
25 457. Let me read them to you, as I have them on this
1 document from the registrar.
2 The Prosecutor's pointing out he has no
3 witness but wants to present documents further to Rule
4 85. Mr. Hayman is raising objections to the documents
5 being tendered. The presiding Judge suggests that they
6 be accepted, subject to the Defence raising objections
7 later on. The Prosecutor then presents the documents,
8 and at the end of the presentation the Prosecutor says
9 he has no more witnesses for the week, and it went from
10 1500 hours until 1640 hours. That was the transcript.
11 What I suggest is that there are two ways of
12 working. We can either postpone the witness's
13 testimony until tomorrow, which would mean you have
14 another witness, or we will not count this hearing as
15 your time, that is, the end of this morning --
16 actually, the morning is almost over. Or we will try
17 to move forward, and if the Prosecutor can try to do
18 his best with the documents, as you did with the
19 version in English, then he will only work with the
20 Serbo-Croatian version.
21 What do you think, Mr. Cayley? Are you
22 prepared to work that way?
23 MR. CAYLEY: The point I would make, Mr.
24 President, is there is a distinction between Exhibit
25 456 and the position with this exhibit. Firstly, all
1 of those documents had been translated into a language
2 which Mr. Hayman could understand. I cannot understand
3 any of these documents, because they are in
5 Furthermore, I would imagine that all of
6 these documents are going to be admitted into evidence,
7 and not just a select few. So even documents that are
8 not referred to by the witness will be admitted into
9 evidence and I would imagine will be referred to by
10 Mr. Hayman or Mr. Nobilo in their closing argument. So
11 we will not even have an opportunity to address these
12 documents in the immediate cross-examination of this
14 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President, my learned friend
15 is chasing his own tail. Exhibits 406, 456 and 457
16 were admitted in their entirety, every document was
17 admitted by Your Honours. So be it, we respect that
18 ruling, I'm not taking issue with it. But those were
19 admitted without producing a witness for
21 MR. CAYLEY: I apologise for interrupting my
22 learned friend, but the fact is the Defence was given
23 the opportunity to object to any of those documents.
24 And, Mr. President, you have just read out exactly what
25 was said at the time. They haven't done so yet. They
1 may do so in the future. But they were given the
2 opportunity to object to the admission of any of it.
3 MR. HAYMAN: We did object, Mr. President,
4 that's what you read. We objected and the Court said
5 no, these will be admitted. We preserved our
6 objection, that is in the record. I'm flabbergasted
7 that the Prosecutor maintains otherwise.
8 JUDGE JORDA: But you reserve the right to
9 contest the documents, Mr. Hayman, that's what I
10 meant. Don't use part of what's in the transcript
11 without using the other part. You reserved the right
12 to object at any time you want, all the way to the end
13 of the trial.
14 MR. HAYMAN: We did two things, Mr.
15 President. We objected to the process, lack of
16 authentication, because no witness was produced,
17 particularly based on the nature of the records that
18 they were producing. Records. For example, purporting
19 to be HVO records and saying the source for those were
20 the BH government, not the author or creator of those
21 documents. So we objected first to the process. That
22 was overruled, we respect that, we're not seeking to
23 relitigate that.
24 And, secondly, because they were hundreds and
25 hundreds of documents, we reserved the right to make
1 document specific, or individualised objections in
2 time. We did those two things.
3 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, that's exactly what I
4 meant. At least you recognise that, Mr. Hayman. You
5 do admit you had the right to make objections in the
6 future. That was the right that was reserved for you.
7 At any point, all the way to the end of the trial, the
8 Judges can accept any objection that you make about a
9 document, as long as you bring proof for your
11 MR. HAYMAN: What is the analogy to the
12 current situation, Defence Exhibit 450? The analogy
13 is, Mr. President, that the Prosecutor certainly can
14 reserve the right to make individual document specific
15 objections to these documents, because there are 98
16 documents, we don't have any difficulty with that.
17 We would object to interrupting the
18 examination of this witness at this time so that the
19 Prosecutor can read every document, study every
20 document before conducting his cross-examination.
21 Because what could we have done? If those are the
22 rules of this Court, we could have completed our
23 examination of this witness, sent him home, and then
24 admitted Defence Exhibit 450 after he had gone, under
25 the rules and procedures that this Court has adopted.
1 We aren't going to do that, we didn't do
2 that, because we want the Court to have the benefit of
3 a live witness to answer any and all questions and
4 concerns the Court has. But let's not penalise the
5 Defence, please, vis-a-vis the situation the Prosecutor
6 has put in foregoing this extra --
7 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, Mr. Hayman, all I
8 said was that I would like to offer some possible
9 solutions. I don't ordinarily take decisions whenever
10 a sensitive question is asked. This is a panel of
11 Judges, so I try to consult with my colleagues, I try
12 to find solutions.
13 I only said that, first of all, the question
14 was not raised in the same way for 456 and 457.
15 In the second place, the reading of the
16 transcript by the registrar has shown us there was no
17 witness and you had all the time you needed, and you
18 still have all your time to contest those documents.
19 Thirdly, I am trying, with my colleagues, to
20 take into account an objection raised in good faith by
21 Mr. Cayley, that is, that he wants to conduct a
22 cross-examination properly in respect of these
23 documents. I allowed myself to say there were not 50
24 solutions but only two. We're trying to make do with
25 what we have, otherwise we will take some more time.
1 Mr. Cayley, I think there is some confusion
2 here. Almost all the documents have been translated
3 into English; isn't that true, Mr. Cayley? Hence, the
4 translation service did that, the official service of
5 the Tribunal; isn't that correct?
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's right.
7 JUDGE JORDA: Where is the lack of confidence
8 here? I think that this document 1, A-1 has been
9 translated, so you can work, you can begin to
10 cross-examine the witness on that document, can you
11 not? Thank you, Judge Shahabuddeen.
12 The only problem is for the file H. And it
13 is true that I can understand that the objection would
14 be raised, I myself would raise objections, as would my
15 colleagues, that it is in Serbo-Croatian, perhaps the
16 entire document should be read, calling upon the
17 objectivity of the interpreters, who have always been
19 All these documents have been translated by
20 the official translation service of the Tribunal,
21 Mr. Cayley, you have no objection to that, so you can
22 work, you can conduct your cross-examination.
23 Of course, he is going to need time, but we
24 all need time. Thank you, Judge Riad. But we also
25 have to try to show some good will. We don't have a
1 great deal of time, time is slipping away from all of
3 Mr. Cayley, can you work? And if you cannot
4 work on a document, then you will ask for some time and
5 you will be given that time. But it seems to me that
6 as regards the documents, this is not the first time
7 all of us are, not the Presiding Judge, but the
8 hundreds of times ever since this trial has started I
9 have been working with sight translations from English,
10 and my colleagues helped me. If I were to make an
11 objection to that, I think it would take three years to
12 complete this trial.
13 Unless you have a specific difficulty,
14 present it, but otherwise I think you can conduct your
15 cross-examination with the documents you have. If you
16 have any reservations you can express them, and express
17 them in your final argument.
18 We still have file H. Mr. Nobilo, we will
19 see which of those documents you use and which ones
20 have to be translated. In fact, are there really so
21 many of them? Well, yes, there are, there are a great
23 As regards file H, Mr. Nobilo, could you not
24 tell us right now which documents you are going to use,
25 and couldn't we have them sent to the translation
1 service to be translated urgently?
2 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, these documents
3 are, in fact, reports according to the different
4 months. They are the police station in Busovaca and in
5 my part I have made notes of what we would tender in
6 evidence. So I have used a yellow marker to indicate
7 these several lines in every document. This is an
8 example of a document, for example. It won't be much,
9 only what we consider to be relevant and that we are
10 offering as evidence.
11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, I don't think that
12 the opposing party nor the Judges can accept that.
13 When we have one of the official languages of the
14 Tribunal, if you underscore what you want to say, all
15 right, we are old enough and professional enough to see
16 what documents you are emphasising, because it's in
17 your interest. Perhaps there is a document in the
18 interest of the other party.
19 You speak Serbo-Croat, that's one of your
20 national characteristics, but you can't say with this
21 witness, "Do you agree that line 8 means this, and that
22 it supports the interests of your client," we can't do
23 it that way. What I suggest, Mr. Nobilo, is that you
24 commit yourself that by the end of the trial the entire
25 H file will be translated at least into English, I
1 should say in French as well, but at least in English.
2 And then, if you already know, it's now 1.00, if you
3 already know which documents you want to use during
4 your direct examination, then you must tell us
5 immediately which ones they are, and I will ask for an
6 urgent translation at least into English. You see, I'm
7 not even demanding that it be done into French, but at
8 least English, so that what you're underscoring can be
9 challenged possibly by the opposing party.
10 Mr. Cayley?
11 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, just to make the
12 position absolutely clear. The tabs on this, going
13 from A to K, don't really reveal the full nature of the
14 problem. The documents, as my learned friend pointed
15 out, are numbered 1 to 98. There are 98 documents in
16 here, and of those 98 documents, documents 52 to 98 are
17 the ones which I think, bar two, are not translated.
18 So, in essence, half of this exhibit is in a language
19 which the Prosecutor cannot understand.
20 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if I may, Your
21 Honour, I think that I have a solution. In the
22 examination-in-chief, I am going to ask the witness
23 questions only on facts relating to J and K, the
24 documents from J to K. The other documents I shall ask
25 him to authenticate, but I'm not going to question him
1 on the documents. We're going to tender the documents
2 as our colleagues have done so. We're going to tender
3 the documents, the witness will identify them, and the
4 examination-in-chief will concern documents J and K.
5 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley.
6 MR. CAYLEY: In the sense that the documents
7 are simply going to be admitted into evidence without
8 any ability to ask a witness any question about that, I
9 would simply make that comment. There is a witness
10 here for these documents. We chose not to call a
11 witness in the particular interest which Mr. Hayman is
12 speaking about, and I would ask the Judges to bear that
13 in mind when they come to consider documents 52 to 98,
14 that they have simply been admitted into evidence
15 without any questions being asked of the witness in
16 respect of them.
17 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, would you accept
18 the Prosecutor's suggestion that for all the documents
19 from A to G -- rather, H, that all of those documents
20 be filed as the Prosecutor did for 456 and 457? Why
21 don't you think about that while I consult with my
23 MR. NOBILO: Yes.
24 JUDGE JORDA: I think that -- well, you want
25 to ask a question, Mr. Nobilo? Perhaps that question
1 will determine the definitive position.
2 Do you agree to filing, without asking
3 anything of the witness, documents A through I, which
4 were filed as was the file 456, 57, aside from the
5 witness, outside of the witness?
6 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we accept that,
7 but we should just like to add that you accept that the
8 witness has authenticated these documents as police
9 documents, so we're not going to ask any questions and
10 we accept your proposal.
11 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley?
12 MR. CAYLEY: In respect, Mr. President, of
13 the documents in Tab H, while they may be authenticated
14 by the witness and identified -- and identified as
15 being that which they represent themselves to be, we
16 would have to reserve our position on those documents
17 simply because we have no ability to make any comment
18 on them because we can't read them.
19 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. That's a valid position.
20 All right. If I've understood things
21 correctly, the first decision as regards Tabs A through
22 G, A through G, it is understood that you will file
23 them without any reference to the witness, and you
24 will -- as did the Prosecutor for 456 and 457. I see
25 that Mr. Hayman does not agree. All right. You're
1 going to force me to take an authoritarian decision,
2 and that will be definitive decision that the Judges
3 will have to evaluate. We have to find a situation out
4 of this. We're trying to have three different kinds of
6 From A to G, that will be filed the way the
7 Prosecutor did with 456. You don't want that
8 solution. I see.
9 MR. HAYMAN: The difference, Mr. President,
10 was the witness has authenticated those documents
11 police records, and there's no reason for the Court to
12 simply take them as blind records that the Defence
13 represents are from the Busovaca police station.
14 JUDGE JORDA: Very well.
15 MR. HAYMAN: That's the distinction. But
16 that is a distinction from Exhibits 456, 456 and 457 of
17 the Prosecutor. That's the only distinction we're
19 JUDGE JORDA: Therefore, we agree,
20 Mr. Hayman. We will then give the Prosecutor the
21 possibility of having the witness come back. I'm
23 I would have preferred for you to accept the
24 fact that A through G be in the same situation as it
25 was for the case for the file 456. Now, as regards H,
1 for which there is no translation, that we will have
2 the witness authenticate, and then you will conduct
3 your direct-examination on J through K. You can
4 decide, but that's your option, and the Trial Chamber
5 will make its own evaluation.
6 Let me repeat them. A to G, you set that
7 aside, you isolate them, and you present them as a
8 binder which is independent of the witness. If you
9 want to refer it back to the witness, I think at that
10 point you have to agree that we're getting into a
11 discussion, and in that case, we see that there's a
12 difference between them and 456, because 456 no witness
13 had been brought in by the Prosecutor.
14 Either you isolate the A through G inclusive,
15 you isolate those documents, and you file them with the
16 Trial Chamber as the Prosecutor did for 456. Isolate
18 Then, as regards those documents under H, we
19 take advantage of the fact that the witness is in the
20 courtroom to authenticate them, because he's the only
21 one that can do so, reserving the possibility, of
22 course, for the Prosecutor, once the documents have
23 been translated, to make any comments that it considers
25 The third point, as regards J and K, you will
1 question your witness on those documents, that is J and
2 K. That seems to be the wise path to take after having
3 consulted with my colleagues, but this does not mean --
4 you cannot say that you haven't had -- we don't want
5 you to say that you weren't given the opportunity to
6 respond, so go ahead, Mr. Hayman.
7 MR. HAYMAN: They're only different in this
8 respect, Mr. President and Your Honours, the witness
9 has already authenticated categories A through G.
10 Those documents have been translated into English, a
11 language that the Prosecutor team can understand. They
12 can cross-examine the witness on authentication as to A
13 through G, and we propose that they do. If they have
14 no questions, fine, but then the Court has the benefit
15 of that higher level of certainty that the documents in
16 categories A through G are indeed authentic, and that
17 is what we seek. Thank you.
18 JUDGE RIAD: They can't do it today. We
19 might have to ask the witness to come back.
20 MR. HAYMAN: Your Honour, we're going to
21 break soon for an hour and a half lunch break. We're
22 then going to break at the end of the day, and tomorrow
23 morning we're not this session. If they are
24 representing by the end of the day they can't
25 cross-examine the witness as to authenticity on 40 or
1 50 documents, so it be. He can come back
2 tomorrow at -- I think we're in session tomorrow at
3 2.00, and if they need that extra time, so it be. We
4 want the Court to have a higher level of certainty in
5 these records.
6 JUDGE RIAD: Can we ask him to come back in
7 10 days, two weeks?
8 MR. HAYMAN: Then I think the Court should
9 exercise its discretion as to what is reasonable under
10 the circumstances, and I would submit that would be an
12 JUDGE JORDA: That's what we always do.
13 Please don't argue about a question which hasn't even
14 been raised.
15 Mr. Cayley? Before we have to take a break,
16 because the interpreters are tired, as are the Judges,
17 I am you sure are as well. Mr. Cayley?
18 MR. CAYLEY: I'll be brief, Mr. President. I
19 am in full agreement with the proposal that you have
20 made. I believe that we should be given the
21 opportunity to cross-examine this witness on another
22 occasion on the documents that are contained within the
23 binder H. There may be matters that are of particular
24 interest to the Prosecutor, and we have no idea of what
25 the content of half, 50 per cent, of the documents are
1 within this file.
2 JUDGE JORDA: Well, we're not meeting
3 tomorrow morning. Do you think that by tomorrow
4 afternoon you would conduct your cross-examination on
5 documents A through G? Would that be enough time for
6 you to conduct your cross-examination to prevent the
7 witness from coming back? I'm trying to find another
8 solution. Let me re-explain myself.
9 This afternoon there will be the
10 direct-examination on documents J and K, setting aside
11 documents H for the time being. They have to be
12 translated, which would allow the cross-examination --
13 the Prosecutor to conduct his cross-examination, but
14 they cannot be done until they've been authenticated.
15 That's regards documents under H.
16 As regards J and K, Mr. Nobilo will conduct
17 the direct-examination this afternoon, and you can
18 conduct the cross-examination this afternoon, and we
19 will reserve for tomorrow afternoon for the
20 cross-examination on documents A through G. You will
21 have the time to do that, because according to
22 Mr. Hayman, you don't have lunch, and then you won't
23 have dinner and you won't sleep, and then you have all
24 of tomorrow to prepare your cross-examination.
25 Might we proceed in that manner, that there
1 be a cross-examination, and if there are any questions
2 that have to do with documents A through G.
3 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I'm in agreement
4 with that proposal. The only remaining matter is those
5 documents that are contained within section H, which is
6 almost half of the documents. So whereas I can deal
7 with I and J, or J and K this afternoon and A through
8 to G inclusive tomorrow afternoon, there is still the
9 matter of 50 per cent of the documents in H. On that
10 basis, would I like to reserve our position to call the
11 witness back, if necessary, within 10 days time.
12 JUDGE JORDA: I see we're making some
14 All right. The Trial Chamber's proposal has
15 been accepted. You reserve the right to cross-examine
16 if you want to. Perhaps you don't. So tomorrow
17 afternoon you have the time to prepare -- by tomorrow
18 you'll have the time to prepare yourselves for the
19 documents under A to G. This afternoon the examination
20 will be under J and K.
21 You are professionals. You will be able to
22 prepare an effective cross-examination for documents J
23 and K. In any case, that's the Trial Chamber's
25 Now, we are left with those documents under
1 H. It's true, they are in Serbo-Croat, and, therefore,
2 the Prosecutor will maintain the right, once the
3 translations have arrived, I don't know how long that's
4 going to take, but if the Prosecutor needs to do so,
5 we'll have the witness brought back. But that's -- we
6 haven't reached that point yet. It's now quarter
7 after, and we will resume at 2.45 to spare the
8 interpreters and to spare ourselves as well.
9 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.15 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 2.55 p.m.
3 JUDGE JORDA: We can now resume the hearing.
4 Have the accused brought in, please.
5 (The accused entered court)
6 JUDGE JORDA: Have the witness brought in,
8 About how much time do you expect the
9 direct-examination to take, Mr. Nobilo?
10 MR. NOBILO: About 15 to 20 minutes.
11 JUDGE JORDA: Very well.
12 (The witness entered court)
13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Katava, we're going to
14 resume now after the procedural incident which has been
15 settled. Mr. Nobilo, proceed, please.
16 MR. NOBILO:
17 Q. Mr. Katava, would you turn to Defence
18 Exhibit I? It is 450 -- I. Would you -- slowly, we're
19 in no hurry.
20 Take a look at document IJ96, the stamp, and
21 it says "Niko Grubesic" as the head of the
22 municipality. Do you recognise the document, that is
23 to say, the stamp of the Busovaca municipality, and do
24 you know Niko Grubesic?
25 A. Yes, I recognise the stamp of Busovaca, and I
1 know the head of the municipality, Niko Grubesic.
2 Q. From the document, it emanates that in --
3 that 1.692 Croats were expelled from Busovaca, the part
4 under the control of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
5 This is the document from the Busovaca municipality.
6 As far as you know, is that figure correct, and is it
7 also correct that the Croats were expelled from these
8 15 villages in the Busovaca municipality?
9 A. Yes, the figure is correct, and it is also
10 correct that the Croats were expelled from these 15
11 villages, because those 15 villages were under majority
12 Muslim control.
13 MR. NOBILO: I would like to ask that another
14 document be handed round, please. The map is the
15 original, big map, and this is a copy. It's one
16 document, A and B.
17 THE REGISTRAR: The maps will be D443, 443 A
18 and B.
19 MR. NOBILO:
20 Q. Mr. Katava, would you take a look at those
21 two maps? They represent the municipality of
22 Busovaca. Tell us, please, whether I have marked
23 circles, according to your instructions, in the places
24 from which the Croats were expelled. Does that map
25 represent that fact?
1 A. Yes, the map represents the villages in the
2 Busovaca municipality from which the Croats were
3 expelled, and the villages have been circled on the
5 Q. These villages marked with a circle, are they
6 the same ones that are contained in the document IJ96
7 that we mentioned a moment ago?
8 A. Yes. The document is numbered 96.
9 Q. Tell the Court, please -- you can put it on
10 the ELMO or here.
11 Tell the Court, according to your
12 recollections and experience, whether the municipality
13 of Busovaca -- whether more Muslims fled to Busovaca or
15 A. Well, the facts state that from these regions
16 within the frameworks of the municipality, more Croats
17 were expelled than Muslims from the municipality
18 itself, Busovaca itself.
19 Q. Let us now move on to the next document,
20 D450/K. It is document number 98, K.
21 Would you look at the letter which states
22 that these documents have been sent to me? Do you
23 recognise the stamp and signature of Mr. Katava?
24 A. Yes, I recognise the stamp of the
25 municipality, and Mr. Katava is the representative for
1 the economy -- the economic section.
2 Q. Is it also true that this document lists the
3 names of the owners of the houses which were destroyed
4 in the Busovaca municipality?
5 A. Yes, that is correct. It lists the names of
6 the owners whose houses were destroyed or damaged.
7 Q. They were Croat owners?
8 A. Yes, they were Croat owners from the area
9 that we mentioned a moment ago.
10 Q. Is it also true that 482 houses were
12 A. Yes, that fact is correct.
13 Q. I would now like to look at another exhibit.
14 THE REGISTRAR: This is D444.
15 MR. NOBILO:
16 Q. Would you look at that photographic report,
17 and does it represent the houses that were destroyed?
18 A. Yes, Your Honour, this report is a report of
19 the Gusti Grab, the houses that were destroyed in Gusti
20 Grab and the villages inhabited by the Croats.
21 Q. Do you know who made the photographs, who
22 took the photographs?
23 A. They were taken by my colleague, a policeman
24 from the Busovaca police station.
25 Q. At whose request?
1 A. At the request of the lawyer.
2 MR. NOBILO: Next document, please.
3 THE REGISTRAR: This is D445.
4 MR. NOBILO:
5 Q. Mr. Katava, does this represent a
6 photographic file of the Croat houses destroyed and
7 burned in the place of Nezirovic?
8 A. Your Honour, these are Croat houses in the
9 village of Nezirovic.
10 Q. Has this photographic file been compiled in
11 the same way as the previous one?
12 A. Yes, this photographic file was made
13 according to the same principle.
14 MR. NOBILO: May I now have one more document
15 and one more number?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document D446.
17 MR. NOBILO:
18 Q. Would you take a look at this photographic
19 file, and does it represent the Croat houses destroyed
20 in the village of Oseliste, Busovaca municipality?
21 A. Yes, this photographic file represents the
22 Croat houses destroyed in the Busovaca municipality,
23 the village of Oseliste.
24 Q. Was that file compiled by your colleague, the
25 policeman from the police station at Busovaca?
1 A. Yes, it was.
2 Q. According to the information you collected in
3 the Busovaca municipality, which houses were more
4 destroyed, the Croat houses or the Muslim ones?
5 A. Your Honours, the facts show that there were
6 more Croat houses destroyed in the Busovaca
7 municipality, a larger number than the Muslim houses.
8 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we have a
9 videotape to show you now, representing the village of
10 Oseliste, Gusti Grab, Bukovci and Nezirovici, all in
11 the Busovaca municipality.
12 I would like to make a proposal, the tape
13 lasts 30 minutes. The witness has seen the tape, and I
14 suggest that we show it for some 10 minutes, let's say,
15 just to give you an impression, to give you an idea of
16 what it looks like, and to save time we won't be
17 showing the tape in its entirety.
18 MR. CAYLEY: The Office of the Prosecutor,
19 Mr. President, would like to see the whole tape before
20 we agree for it to be admitted into evidence.
21 MR. NOBILO: It will last 30 minutes. We
22 have an alternative proposal, that after ten minutes of
23 looking at it at normal speed, it shows houses, and if
24 we speed up the tape, we will finish quicker.
25 JUDGE JORDA: Or we can also just take the
1 ten minutes and include that as the exhibit. So you
2 could show the ten minutes which are of interest to
3 you, give the ten minutes a number, which is the proper
4 number for those ten minutes; is that all right?
5 MR. NOBILO: Very well. Thank you.
6 JUDGE JORDA: And then you be sure that this
7 is done properly, Mr. Registrar, that is, you indicate
8 exactly where it begins and where it ends.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's possible, we can
10 do that.
11 MR. NOBILO: May we have the lights dimmed,
13 (Videotape played)
14 MR. NOBILO: Mr. Katava, can you identify the
15 first village that we're looking at on the video?
16 A. Your Honours, this is the village of
17 Oseliste, the houses in the village of Oseliste.
18 Q. Are those the Croat houses that you mentioned
19 in the village of Oseliste belonging to Croats?
20 A. Yes, those are the houses that we spoke of.
21 JUDGE JORDA: Is that the same as in the
23 MR. NOBILO: Yes, Mr. President, they are
24 practically identical houses, the videotape and the
25 photo file.
1 Q. Are any Croats living in the village of
2 Oseliste, or is it an empty village now?
3 A. Nobody has gone back to Oseliste and the
4 houses still look as they do on the tape, nothing has
5 been rebuilt yet.
6 Q. Was that your colleague who took the
7 photographs on the tape?
8 A. Yes, that was my friend and colleague from
9 the police station in Busovaca.
10 Q. And he took the photographs we saw a moment
12 A. Yes, he took those photographs.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Seems to me there was
14 commentary with these pictures. Was it on purpose that
15 you're not, was it on purpose that you decided not to
16 have us hear the commentary?
17 MR. NOBILO: No, we can't hear very well.
18 The man is explaining which house belongs to whom. He
19 is a local Croat, and he is explaining to his
20 colleague, the policeman, which house belongs to whom,
21 and took the photograph, so it's nothing particularly
22 relevant. And the tone is poor, we can't hear well
24 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, we would like a
25 copy with the audio tape, because I think it's
1 important if this man is identifying to whom these
2 houses belong, we would like to hear what he is
4 JUDGE JORDA: That seems like a legitimate
5 request to us, because it should be interesting to hear
6 what the man has to say.
7 MR. NOBILO: Well, no problems there. Our
8 tape is with the technical department and they will
9 make a copy.
10 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Thank you.
11 MR. NOBILO:
12 Q. Mr. Katava, we are now coming to the village
13 of Gusti Grab, are we not?
14 A. Yes, this is the village of Gusti Grab.
15 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if you agree,
16 burned down villages are burned down villages, we just
17 wanted you to get an impression, a general idea. So,
18 it is not important for you to see all the burned down
19 villages in Bosnia.
20 JUDGE JORDA: All right, then we will give a
21 number, I'm saying this for the technicians, for the
22 part from the beginning to the point where we stopped
23 it. Thank you.
24 THE REGISTRAR: The number is D447.
25 MR. NOBILO:
1 Q. Before we finish, we mentioned this, but
2 perhaps we went a bit too fast and perhaps not
3 everybody noticed it. Could you explain to the Court
4 once again your line of hierarchy in the civilian
5 police from the police station of Busovaca onwards, who
6 was your superior?
7 A. Yes, I can do this. Your Honour, the
8 Busovaca police station was under the police department
9 in Travnik, and through the police department to the
10 Ministry of Internal Affairs in Mostar.
11 Q. And that was the civilian structure of
12 government; is that right?
13 A. Yes, that was civilian police.
14 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, we have thus
15 concluded our direct examination. Thank you.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Would you like to cross-examine
17 Mr. Cayley?
18 MR. CAYLEY: Good afternoon, Mr. President,
19 Your Honours, thank you.
20 Examined by Mr. Cayley.
21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Katava, my name is
22 Cayley, I'm from the Office of the Prosecutor and these
23 are my colleagues, Mr. Harmon and Mr. Kehoe.
24 Now, the Defence provided me with a copy of
25 your passport earlier in the day. Now, you are a
1 Croatian passport holder; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, yes, Your Honours, I have a Croatian
4 Q. And you still reside in Busovaca in
6 A. Yes, yes, I have been living in Busovaca and
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina throughout.
8 Q. And am I right in saying that, in fact, it is
9 an entitlement for all people of Croatian ethnicity in
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina to apply for and possess a Croatian
12 INTERPRETER: Would the witness please speak
13 into the microphone? The interpreters can't hear him.
14 MR. CAYLEY:
15 Q. Can you repeat your answer, please,
16 Mr. Katava, because the interpreters can't hear you.
17 A. Could you please put your question again?
18 Q. Am I correct in saying that all persons of
19 Croatian ethnicity within Bosnia-Herzegovina are
20 entitled to apply for and possess a Croatian passport?
21 A. Yes, you are right. All persons have the
22 right to submit a request for the issuing of a
23 passport, and all other persons from the territory of
24 Bosnia and Herzegovina have this same right, to submit
25 a request to be admitted into Croatian citizenship.
1 Q. What are the requirements to apply for
2 Croatian citizenship?
3 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, this is beyond
4 the scope of the direct examination. We have allowed
5 our distinguished colleague to ask what kind of
6 passport the witness had because we supplied a copy,
7 but I think that everything else he has asked goes
8 beyond the scope of direct examination.
9 JUDGE JORDA: I don't quite agree with you,
10 Mr. Nobilo. It's interesting, at least for the Judges,
11 to know under what circumstances one can be both a
12 citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina and have a Croatian
14 All right, Mr. Cayley, you may continue. I
15 think this is part of the relevant material, having to
16 do with identifying documents. Go ahead, please.
17 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you so much, Mr.
19 Q. I'm right in saying, am I not, Mr. Katava,
20 that it is necessary for an applicant to demonstrate
21 Croatian ethnicity in order to apply for a passport
22 from the Republic of Croatia?
23 A. You are not right. Your Honour, Mr. Cayley
24 is not right as regards this question, because other
25 people, Muslims, Serbs, et cetera are also entitled to
1 apply for a Croatian passport, I mean from Bosnia and
2 Herzegovina, that is. Because I know people, Muslims,
3 who have a Croatian passport, and they live in Bosnia
4 and Herzegovina. People who are quite well-off, at
6 Q. Could you name those people for me?
7 A. Well, I remember Nijaz Orman, he owns
8 gasoline stations in Kacuni, a territory under Muslim
9 control, but he had a Croatian passport before I did.
10 Q. Are you entitled to vote in elections in the
11 Republic of Croatia?
12 A. I don't vote in the Republic of Croatia. I
13 vote in the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
14 Q. Are there any persons of Croatian ethnicity
15 in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina who have
16 voted in Croatian elections?
17 A. I don't know. I cannot answer that question.
18 Q. You don't know the answer to that question?
19 A. I couldn't really explain that to you.
20 Q. Would it surprise you if I told you there
21 were persons of Croatian ethnicity living in
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina who do vote in elections in the
23 Republic of Croatia?
24 A. I repeat, Your Honours, I can't really tell
25 you anything about this. I don't know anyone who's
1 close to me, or anyone from my neighbourhood or
2 whatever who voted there.
3 JUDGE JORDA: I take it the witness has
5 MR. CAYLEY:
6 Q. Are you aware that there are, in fact, 12
7 members of the Croatian parliament who are Bosnian
8 Croats from Bosnia-Herzegovina? Are you aware of
10 A. Well, I haven't really been following
11 parliamentary affairs and I can't give answers related
12 to politics. I'm a policeman by profession and I'm
13 involved in police matters.
14 Q. So you don't read newspapers, and you don't
15 watch television or listen to the radio, you don't
16 follow current affairs?
17 A. I read the newspapers, and I watch television
18 and I listen to the radio, but only what I'm interested
19 in. That's what I follow. That is to say, issues
20 related to life itself and improving one's life, and a
21 bit of sports.
22 Q. Now, you stated in your examination-in-chief
23 that there came a time when the police force in
24 Busovaca split on ethnic lines, and the Muslims went to
25 the Muslim police force and the Croats to the Croat
1 police force. Could you give the Judges a date when
2 that took place, that event?
3 A. Your Honours, I did say that there was an
4 ethnic division within the police. I cannot remember
5 the date exactly, but this was probably when the
6 authorities of Herceg-Bosna were set up and when the
7 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna established its
8 government there. The Muslims did not reconcile
9 themselves to that. They went to their own compact
10 territory, and they established their own police with
11 its headquarters in Kacuni.
12 So there was a police with Croats in
13 Busovaca, and a police and municipality with the
14 Muslims in Kacuni.
15 Q. What year was that?
16 A. '92. I think the end of '92.
17 Q. November or December of 1992?
18 A. I'm not sure. I think it was the second half
19 of 1992.
20 Q. Now, I think you stated, and you've just
21 restated that this split coincided with the
22 introduction of the HVO civilian authorities in
23 Busovaca. Do you recall saying that?
24 A. Well, it coincides with that more or less.
25 Q. And I think that was in May of 1992, wasn't
1 it, Mr. Katava?
2 A. Well, I said the second half. Some time had
3 gone by. The Muslims did not wish to accept the
4 civilian authorities in Herceg-Bosna and the HVO, and
5 that's when they left, and this was already the second
6 half of 1992.
7 Q. How would you describe the introduction of
8 the HVO in Busovaca, as best as you remember in May of
10 A. Well, in specific terms, I do not quite
11 understand your question, Your Honour.
12 Q. Was the introduction of HVO authority in
13 Busovaca in May of 1992 something that was agreed
14 between all of the residents of the municipality of
16 A. Authority was not only established in the
17 municipality of Busovaca, but in all other
18 municipalities in Central Bosnia where the Croats are
19 majority population. The authority was set up because
20 the system did not function. Law and order were
21 attempted to be introduced. In my opinion, that was
22 the reason why it was established.
23 Q. Mr. Katava, listen very carefully to the
24 questions that I ask you, because you've not actually
25 answered that question that I just put to you, and I'll
1 put it to you again.
2 Was the introduction of HVO authority in
3 Busovaca something that was agreed upon by all of the
4 residents regardless of ethnicity? Was it something
5 that was agreed upon by everybody in May of 1992?
6 A. I think that such agreement was reached and
7 civilian authority was established by the HVO.
8 Q. Let us take a look at an exhibit, Exhibit
9 209. If that could be shown to the witness, please.
10 Prosecutor's Exhibit 209. I'm sorry, 208, 2-0-8.
11 Now, by way of introduction, Mr. Katava, this
12 is an order from Dario Kordic, dated the 10th of May,
13 1992. Have a look at it. This order corresponds in
14 time with the introduction of HVO authority in
16 A. I didn't understand. Did you put a question
17 to me?
18 Q. No, I was just explaining to you what this
19 document constitutes. It's an order from Dario Kordic,
20 in May of 1992, at the time of the establishment of HVO
21 authority in Busovaca, and you will see that it is in
22 the form of an order. Do you see that?
23 A. So far I haven't had an opportunity to see
24 this document.
25 Q. Have a read of it. Take a moment to read
1 it. Have you had the opportunity to look at the
3 A. Yes, I have had a look at the document, Your
5 Q. Now, you would agree with me that this is an
6 order which essentially places the Busovaca HVO in
7 absolute control of the municipality of Busovaca?
8 A. This was at the time when Serb barracks were
9 being dissolved, Your Honours, and you can see from
10 this document that Darko Vuleta, member of the HVO, was
11 attacked and killed, and there are other persons who
12 are named.
13 So it is well known who killed Darko. That
14 is probably why these orders were issued, to ensure the
15 security and safety of all citizens and everyone else
16 on the territory of Busovaca. And it did not pertain
17 to the entire territory of the municipality of Busovaca
18 but only the area where the Croats lived.
19 Q. Let's address a number of sections in this
20 order. Can you explain what is meant by paragraph 2:
21 "The town of Busovaca is to be completely blocked from
22 all sides"?
23 Now, that is a military blockade, is it not,
24 Mr. Katava?
25 A. No. Checkpoints were supposed to be set up
1 for the purpose of security and to prevent undesirable
2 forces and elements from coming in and from committing
3 murders, et cetera. These were checkpoints at roads,
4 regional roads, before one enters the town of Busovaca,
6 Q. Checkpoints set up by the HVO or joint
7 checkpoints with the Bosnian army?
8 A. Well, Your Honours, on the one hand were the
9 HVO checkpoints and on the other side were the Muslim
10 checkpoints. There's just one main road that goes out
11 to the biggest road, so one way it went to the Croatian
12 side and the other way to the Muslim side. So there
13 were Croatian and Muslim checkpoints a bit further
14 removed from one another.
15 Q. This order is addressed to the HVO, is it
16 not? In fact, if you look at the top you'll see,
17 Mr. Katava, that it's addressed to the municipal
18 headquarters of the Croatian community of
20 A. To the municipal staff of Busovaca, but I
21 cannot see that it was sent to the HVO, Your Honours.
22 I haven't seen this.
23 Q. Now, let me read paragraph 3 to you: "All
24 paramilitary formations, the so-called TO, individuals
25 and others are given the ultimatum to hand over all
1 weapons in their possession by Sunday 1200 hours or to
2 place themselves under the HVO command, which includes
3 the wearing of HVO insignia."
4 Can you explain that particular clause to the
5 Judges, please, Mr. Katava?
6 A. Your Honours, I cannot comment on this order
7 and these paragraphs very specifically, but I can
8 comment on these paramilitary formations. These are
9 actually units that were set up by the Muslim Patriotic
10 League and the TO, the Territorial Defence
11 headquarters, and this was taken over from the former
12 JNA, and all of them were Muslims in these units, so I
13 cannot really comment on the order, because I'm not
14 competent to do so.
15 Q. But the ultimatum was issued to Muslim army
16 units, that's what you're saying?
17 A. Yes. These paramilitaries, the Muslim -- the
18 Muslim Patriotic League and the former TO headquarters
19 as mentioned here.
20 Q. Let's go to paragraph 8, because I think this
21 is something that you will be more familiar with, and
22 I'll read it: "The public security station is to be
23 taken over and the Busovaca police station is to be
24 established. Until the police station is established,
25 the only institution in Busovaca in charge of law and
1 order, which will ensure that all HVO decisions are
2 respected, is the HVO Military Police which is hereby
3 granted overall authority."
4 Now -- this is paragraph 8, Mr. Katava. You
5 would agree with me that this clause states that the
6 HVO is taking over the police station in Busovaca, and
7 that for the time being, the Military Police of the HVO
8 are to administer law and order in Busovaca.
9 A. Your Honours, I said a few minutes ago that I
10 cannot comment on this order, but I know that they
11 didn't have anything to take over, because in the
12 police station in Busovaca there were only Croat
13 policemen left. We talked about this earlier on. So
14 we stayed there and we continued performing our
16 Q. When did the Muslims leave the police force
17 in the town of Busovaca?
18 A. Your Honours, I cannot exactly recall the day
19 and the date, but I think that it coincides with this,
20 approximately at this time, that is to say, the second
21 half of 1992.
22 Q. So the Muslim police left the police force in
23 Busovaca at the same time as the HVO took over the
24 police station in Busovaca; is that your testimony?
25 A. Your Honours, even before that, because the
1 chief of the police station in Busovaca was a Muslim,
2 and he was elected by his party, appointed, rather, as
3 we said. He actually took his own policemen and he
4 took the computer from the Busovaca police station, and
5 he established a police station in Kacuni.
6 So they worked in a continuous and planned
7 fashion. They left us out there on our own and we
8 carried out our tasks on our own in town and elsewhere
9 and they set up their own police station in Kacuni.
10 Q. Let's move to paragraph 11. The Municipal
11 Crisis Committee is dismissed in accordance of the
12 orders of the HVO in the Croatian community of
13 Herceg-Bosna and the Busovaca HVO is to take over all
15 Now, the crisis committee consisted of both
16 Muslims and Croats, did it not, Mr. Katava?
17 A. I cannot give an answer to that, Your
18 Honours, because I don't know. I was not involved in
19 such matters and I do not have the necessary degree of
20 competence. I do not know who was on the crisis staff.
21 Q. Now, Mr. Katava, you were a police officer in
22 Busovaca in May of 1992; were you not?
23 A. Yes, I was a policeman, and that is the time
24 that we discussed.
25 Q. Did it appear to you --
1 A. That is to say, when the institutions of the
2 former system stopped working and when the new system
3 was being established.
4 Q. Did it appear to you --
5 A. Sir, it took a bit of time. It was a chaotic
6 time. How can I explain this to you?
7 Q. Have you completed your answer, Mr. Katava?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did it appear to you at this time that the
10 HVO was taking control of civilian authority in
12 A. No, Your Honours, because we as the civilian
13 police worked all the time on the protection of human
14 lives and on the prevention of crime.
15 Q. Mr. Katava, you didn't answer my question and
16 I'll ask you once again. Did it appear to you on the
17 10th of May --
18 JUDGE JORDA: Please answer the question
19 directly, otherwise I have to intervene. You are a
20 witness with a rather high cultural level. If the
21 questions aren't clear I'm the first one to say, but
22 these are clear questions.
23 You had an important position, so I ask that
24 you answer specifically, and not to digress. That, of
25 course, is to help the Judges. Thank you very much.
1 A. Yes, Your Honour, but could a specific
2 question be put to me?
3 JUDGE JORDA: All right, ask a very specific
4 question, Mr. Cayley.
5 MR. CAYLEY:
6 Q. You were a police officer, a civic official.
7 After the 10th of May of 1992, did it appear to you
8 that the HVO had taken control of all civilian
9 authority in Busovaca? If you don't know, simply say
10 that you can't answer the question.
11 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, the question has
12 to be very precise. When one says the HVO took over
13 authority, there are two components of the HVO, the
14 civilian and the military components. There is an
15 essential difference involved.
16 INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour,
18 JUDGE JORDA: Let the witness answer. It is
19 a direct question, and if the witness wants to say
20 there were two components, he can. Don't try to
21 whisper answers to the witness. He has been asked the
22 question three times, and we can hope to get an answer
23 from somebody who has a position, had a position of
25 A. Your Honour, as far as I know, throughout
1 this time there was civilian authority of the HVO, and
2 I worked all the time as a policeman in the police
3 station in Busovaca.
4 MR. CAYLEY:
5 Q. Mr. Katava, did the HVO take full control of
6 all of the municipal functions of government in
7 Busovaca after the 10th of May, 1992?
8 A. Yes, in Busovaca, but not in Kacuni and in
9 these other places.
10 Q. Was that with the agreement of the Muslim
11 people of Busovaca?
12 A. I cannot give an answer to that, Your
13 Honours, I don't know.
14 Q. Mr. Katava, you were a policeman in Busovaca,
15 you must know whether or not the Muslims were in
16 agreement with this, what was described to the Judges
17 as a military coup in Busovaca on the 10th of May, 1992
18 by previous Prosecution witnesses.
19 A. Your Honour, I'm an ordinary policeman and I
20 can tell you what I said a few minutes ago. We
21 mentioned a few minutes ago that the Muslims would not
22 accept HVO authority, that they set up their parallel
23 authorities, a municipality, a police station in
24 Kacuni. So there were two municipalities on the
25 territory of Busovaca. I don't know how I can explain
1 this otherwise.
2 So in Busovaca there was the Croatian
3 component and in Kacuni was the Muslim component.
4 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown
5 Exhibit 456/95, please. Prosecutor's Exhibit 456/95.
6 Q. Now, I'm not going to suggest that we read
7 all of this document, Mr. Katava, but it's a document
8 dated the 22nd of September 1992, and it is an excerpt
9 from minutes of the meeting of Croatian Defence
10 Councils in the municipalities of Central Bosnia held
11 in Busovaca on the 22nd of September of 1992.
12 There is a description in this document of
13 the conditions of HVO governments in every
14 municipality, and Busovaca you will find on the Fourth
15 page, on page 4. It follows on from Gornji Vakuf.
16 Now, it states, and I won't read all of it,
17 "HVO authority was set up on 9 May 1992. HVO is the
18 only authority. However, the setting up of the Muslim
19 People's Council is a concern."
20 Now, why is it stated in this document that
21 the HVO is the only authority in Busovaca?
22 A. Your Honours, we talked about that a few
23 minutes ago. The HVO was in Busovaca and the Muslim
24 councilmen were in Kacuni, because they established a
25 parallel municipality in Kacuni. The only authority in
1 that territory, in the territory of Kacuni was the
2 Muslim authority, and we talked about that a few
3 minutes ago.
4 Q. If you could go to, I think it's page 5 of
5 your document, and it follows after Kresevo. I'm
6 sorry, page 6 of your document. It states, and these
7 are general observations noted in all municipalities,
8 "New refugees are arriving daily, especially Muslims.
9 This could disturb the ethnic balance in our areas.
10 The policy should be such that our municipalities serve
11 as transit points for Muslim refugees who should be
12 directed to Muslim municipalities."
13 Now, was this an observation that applied to
14 your municipality, Mr. Katava?
15 A. Your Honours, on the territory of Busovaca,
16 there were Muslim and Croat refugees from Jajce.
17 INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not hear
18 the end of the statement made by the witness.
19 A. There were Muslim and Croat refugees after
20 the Serb aggression in Jajce. They stayed at Busovaca,
21 however, most of the refugees from Krajina were staying
22 in Travnik, and that is where there was a demographical
23 imbalance, in my opinion, because most of the Muslim
24 refugees, after the Serb aggression, fled to Travnik
25 and to the area of Travnik, and it was overpopulated.
1 MR. CAYLEY:
2 Q. Why was this concern being expressed at all,
3 Mr. Katava, about an ethnic imbalance in Busovaca and
4 other areas of Herceg-Bosna?
5 MR. NOBILO: Objection, the witness has just
6 said that this refers to Travnik and not to Busovaca,
7 and therefore, I think that the question was asked
9 JUDGE JORDA: Can you change your question,
11 MR. CAYLEY:
12 Q. When did Jajce fall?
13 A. I can't quite remember. I think at that
15 Q. This report is dated September of 1992, Jajce
16 fell after that date.
17 A. Yes. I don't know, I'm not quite sure. I
18 can't recall the date. Your Honours, it was a long
19 time ago, I can't recall the date.
20 Q. Jajce fell in October of 1992, Mr. Katava.
21 Mr. Katava, listen to my question very carefully.
22 Why was there a concern being expressed
23 across all of the municipalities in the Croatian
24 community of Herceg-Bosna that Muslim refugees would
25 upset the ethnic balance?
1 A. Your Honours, probably out of fear, fear of
2 domination, and that the Croats would be expelled.
3 Q. So in Busovaca, at this time, the Croats
4 seized control because they were frightened of ethnic
5 domination by the Muslims; is that your testimony to
6 the Court?
7 A. I don't maintain that, claim that, but I
8 think that that's what actually happened.
9 Q. So your answer to that question is yes?
10 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, let the witness
11 answer the question. Mr. Nobilo has been suggesting a
12 number of answers to this witness throughout the
13 cross-examination. Let the witness answer the
14 question. He only intervenes when it gets
15 uncomfortable for the witness.
16 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo is an excellent
18 MR. NOBILO: I'm not going to suggest an
20 JUDGE JORDA: If you would please be seated
21 Mr. Nobilo. But the Judges also are competent,
22 although we're not trying to put anyone's competence in
24 Answer Mr. Cayley's question. He was simply
25 trying to arrive at an answer to a question which was
1 not perfectly clear. He wants to know whether, in
2 fact, it was out of fear that Muslim refugees were
3 afraid of the HVO parallel that had been established.
4 You know, let's not get into dialectics. Mr. Cayley,
5 ask the last question again.
6 MR. CAYLEY:
7 Q. Mr. Katava, is it correct that the HVO seized
8 control in Busovaca because they were frightened of
9 Muslim domination within Busovaca? Is that your
10 testimony to the Court?
11 A. I can't give you an exact answer, Your
12 Honours, to that question.
13 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley, you're not very
14 lucky, because the question was asked before and he
15 said yes. I don't know if it's because of Mr. Nobilo's
16 intervention that you changed your answer, but the
17 transcript will speak for itself. We don't have to
18 insist on this any further, Mr. Cayley.
19 MR. CAYLEY: I will move on. I will move
21 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo?
22 MR. NOBILO: Now that we have the question, I
23 am going to make my objection and you can judge whether
24 it was justified or not.
25 The witness confirmed that in May 1992 there
1 was a change of authority. After that the witness
2 confirmed that, he agreed, that is to say, that
3 somewhere in October Jajce fell and the refugees came
4 in. And I claim that it was a trick question when my
5 learned colleague asks, "Is it correct that the
6 Croatian authorities were set up because of the
7 refugees?" Quite obviously the Croatian authority was
8 set up before the refugees came in, and he is trying by
9 using a trick question to discredit the witness, and
10 the witness is not concentrating on the actual date.
11 MR. CAYLEY: I will move on to a different
13 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I think that would be the
15 MR. CAYLEY:
16 Q. Where was the legitimate government of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina based in May of 1992?
18 A. The legitimate government was probably based,
19 Your Honours, in Sarajevo.
20 Q. So you would agree with me that the HVO was
21 an illegal government that was never recognised, one,
22 by the government in Sarajevo, and two, by the
23 International Community?
24 A. Your Honours, I cannot agree that it was an
25 illegal government, because it was set up by the
1 Croatian people. Whether it was recognised by the
2 government in Sarajevo, I don't know.
3 Q. So you testified before this Court that the
4 HVO was, in fact, a legal government within
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what is your justification for the
8 legality of the HVO in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
9 A. The functioning of the institutions and for
10 the protection of the Croatian people.
11 JUDGE JORDA: I don't know if that was an
12 interpretation problem, but I'm not sure I got what
13 your question was, Mr. Cayley. It seems to me you
14 wanted, you were asking about the legitimacy about the
15 Sarajevo government; is that correct?
16 MR. CAYLEY: I was asking the witness from
17 where the HVO drew its legality, how it justified
19 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, all right, thank you.
20 Yes, the witness answered that question. Move to
21 another question, please.
22 MR. CAYLEY:
23 Q. Now, you stated that during your time as a
24 police officer in Busovaca you worked from the law of
25 the Socialist Republic Bosnia-Herzegovina.
1 A. Yes, Your Honours, I said that. But those
2 laws were taken over by the rules and regulations and
3 official Gazette of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
4 Q. That's right, isn't it, Mr. Katava, the
5 Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna had its own
6 legislation in the form of the Narodni List.
7 A. No, we worked according to the old laws, and
8 it was these provisions that we worked, we took over
9 the old laws because we didn't have any others.
10 Q. The Narodni List, in effect the legislation
11 of the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna, took over
12 legislation of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina;
13 didn't it, Mr. Katava?
14 A. Yes, I think that is so.
15 JUDGE JORDA: I think we're going to take a
16 break now, Mr. Cayley, but I don't want to interrupt
18 MR. CAYLEY: That's perfect, Mr. President,
19 to take a break at this point.
20 JUDGE JORDA: We will break until 4.30.
21 --- Recess taken at 4.10 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 4.40 p.m.
23 JUDGE JORDA: We'll have the hearing resumed
24 now. Have the accused brought in, please.
25 (The accused entered court)
1 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We'll now resume.
2 Mr. Cayley, continue, please.
3 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. If we could very briefly return to an issue
5 which I addressed earlier in the cross-examiantion. If
6 the witness could be shown Exhibit 406/5, please,
7 Prosecutor's Exhibit 406/5.
8 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, if I may?
9 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Nobilo.
10 MR. NOBILO: The next exhibit is recognition
11 of -- created by Franjo Tudjman. If anything is out of
12 the focus of the examination-in-chief, then that is
14 JUDGE JORDA: First, let's here the
16 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I'm not going to
17 ask the witness to make a commentary on constitutional
18 matters, but what I do wish to do is draw his attention
19 to paragraph 2 of this document.
20 Q. Do you have the Croatian version in front of
21 you, Mr. Katava?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Let me read to you the section 2 of this
24 decision. The entire decision is the recognition of
25 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina by the Republic of
1 Croatia, and section 2 reads: "This act of recognition
2 grants the right to deal citizenship to members of the
3 Croatian nation who wish such citizenship.
4 Furthermore, we wish to propose that this issue be
5 regulated by bilateral agreement."
6 Now, could you explain to the Judges who the
7 members of the Croatian nation in Bosnia-Herzegovina
8 are, please, Mr. Katava?
9 A. Your Honours, the Croats from Bosnia, and
10 Croats born in Bosnia and living in Bosnia.
11 Q. Does that include Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian
12 Muslims living in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
13 A. It's their goodwill, Your Honours, or perhaps
14 I didn't understand the question.
15 JUDGE JORDA: Your question was not very
16 clear, Mr. Cayley. The sentence in the decision
17 recognising the social republic is clear, giving the
18 right to dual citizenship to members of the Croatian
19 nation. What is your question?
20 MR. CAYLEY:
21 Q. Mr. Katava, does the recognition and granting
22 of dual citizenship rights to members of the Croatian
23 nation in Bosnia-Herzegovina, does that include
24 granting those rights to Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian
25 Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
1 A. Probably it does include them. Those who
2 apply for dual citizenship probably can receive it. I
3 don't know. As a policeman, as a citizen, I'm not
4 informed of those matters.
5 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, not only have we
6 stepped over the questions from Bosnia-Herzegovina that
7 this witness as a policeman could not know about, but
8 we're also asking under what conditions the Croatian
9 authorities issue citizenship, and our witness has
10 never worked with the Croatian authorities in Croatia.
11 How can he know if the possibility allows for Muslims
12 to gain citizenship? But I know that as a lawyer, not
13 the witness.
14 JUDGE JORDA: You're not asking to be a
15 witness, Mr. Nobilo, otherwise, you're going to have to
16 take an oath yourself and then testify.
17 MR. NOBILO: No, but, Mr. President, what I
18 want to say is this: Systematically the Defence
19 witness is being asked questions that are extremely
20 broad, and this is not -- this -- an exception, this
21 has become the rule.
22 JUDGE JORDA: All right. This whole issue of
23 the scope of the cross-examination, try to remove
24 yourself from the domestic system of your traditional
25 ways of thinking. The Judges are here in order to
1 ascertain the truth. We're not going to speak again
2 about the rules governing examination and
3 cross-examination, but what I agree with Mr. Nobilo
4 about, Mr. Cayley, is that you are asking the witness
5 to speak to things which go beyond his competence. I
6 think I need not say anything further about that.
7 In your final argument, Mr. Cayley, if from
8 the what the witness said you draw conclusions, or as
9 you might draw conclusions from the document, I
10 wouldn't stop you, but you asked your question, the
11 witness answered as best he could, and I would like to
12 move on to another question.
13 MR. CAYLEY: I'll move on, Mr. President,
14 thank you.
15 Q. Let's move on to a period of time,
16 Mr. Katava, when you were, I think, an eyewitness to
17 events. Now, you stated in your examination-in-chief
18 that three or four days before conflict broke out in
19 Busovaca, 90 per cent of the Muslim population left the
20 town. Do you recall stating that?
21 A. Yes, Your Honours. I remember saying
22 approximately 90 per cent, in my own estimation,
23 because all the women and children left then and all
24 the elderly people.
25 Q. Can you tell the Court, as a police officer,
1 the events that occurred in the town of Busovaca on the
2 20th and 21st of January, 1993?
3 A. Your Honours, I cannot recall the exact date,
4 but if you tell me which events, then perhaps I'll be
5 able to tell you about them.
6 Q. Let me refresh your memory. Isn't it the
7 case, Mr. Katava, that on the night of the 20th of
8 January and into the 21st of January, a large number of
9 Muslim businesses were destroyed by explosives and
11 A. Yes, Your Honours, that is true. That is to
12 say, some businesses were damaged, both of the Muslims
13 and Croats at that time, and bombs were planted and
14 there was shooting, but a lot of Muslim and Croat
15 houses were damaged in these events.
16 Q. If I could distribute the next Prosecution
17 Exhibit. What number is this, please, Mr. Registrar?
18 THE REGISTRAR: It is 550.
19 MR. CAYLEY:
20 Q. Now, this document is in the English
21 language. I will read it slowly to you. I will tell
22 you, first of all, what it is. It is a military
23 information summary from the British battalion that
24 were based in Vitez. It is a report by that
1 Do you recall the British battalion in Vitez,
2 Mr. Katava?
3 A. I remember that the British patrolled
4 Busovaca, and that there was a Dutch battalion in
5 Busovaca as well.
6 Q. That's quite right, and, in fact, this report
7 refers to information provided by the Dutch battalion
8 in Busovaca, and I'll read it. It's on page 2 and it's
9 headed "Busovaca": "Reference on milinfosum 81 dated 20
10 January, 1993, paragraph 4, Dutch transport squadron
11 report that the new BiH checkpoint placed in Kacuni at
12 grid reference -- placed at grid reference 353835 was
13 put in place to prevent HVO reinforcements coming from
14 Kiseljak, Kresevo. The local Bosnian commander states
15 that these reinforcements arrived during the evening of
16 20 January, '93, and were turned back at the
17 checkpoint. Tensions increased in Busovaca during late
19 Between 8.00 and 9.00, two HVO checkpoints
20 were erected at either end of the town centre at grid
21 references at 304872 and grid reference 313863.
22 At approximately the same time, a quad
23 4 x .5," I assume that's referring to a mounted
24 weapon, "mounted on a flatbed was deployed on the road
25 south of the town in the area of grid reference
1 301851. All main routes in and out of Busovaca were
2 then controlled.
3 Between 9.00, 20 January and 0200 hours in
4 the morning, 21 January, the Dutch transport squadron
5 reported a number of explosions in the town. On 21
6 January, '93, a daylight reccie (phoen) confirmed that
7 eight shops and kiosks had been badly damaged by fire
8 and some form of explosive.
9 Dutch transport believes that these shops,
10 which are all Muslim, were possibly damaged by
11 grenades. Both HVO checkpoints were removed on 21
12 Jan., '93. A local source reported to the Dutch
13 battalion that a number of families in Busovaca had
14 sent their children to stay with friends in Zenica.
15 The action of 20, 21 Jan., '93 appears to be a
16 pre-planned coordinated attack on the Muslim
17 population. Comment ends."
18 Now, Mr. Katava, you will see that the
19 observations of UNPROFOR were that on the night of 20
20 and 21st January, a pre-planned coordinated attack was
21 launched on the Muslim population and eight shops and
22 kiosks belonging to the Muslims of Busovaca were badly
23 damaged. Do you agree with that assessment by
25 A. No, Your Honours. The fact is that there
1 were explosions and shooting from firearms on premises
2 that were closed during the evening hours, but this was
3 done both on Muslim and Croat premises by irresponsible
4 criminals probably, or groups, gangs, and it was not an
5 organised attack, nor did -- were there any
7 Q. So during this time period, you're stating
8 that there were no casualties at all? Is that your
10 A. In the course of that night, no. When
11 individual shops, Muslim and Croat, when bombs were
12 thrown on them and when fire was opened on them, there
13 were no casualties then on that night.
14 Q. Do you know the butcher shop owned by Alic
16 A. I remember that Mr. Alic Cazim, not Kasim had
17 a butcher shop.
18 Q. And that was destroyed on the night of the
19 20th of January?
20 A. No, it was not destroyed, it was just
22 Q. The restaurant owned by Novalic Fevzija,
23 excuse my pronunciation, that was destroyed or damaged
24 on the night of the 20th of January, wasn't it?
25 A. I did not get the name. Fevzija Novalic,
1 that is a restaurant, and that restaurant was not
2 destroyed, it was just damaged by the shooting.
3 Q. The kebab shop owned by Dizdarevic Salih,
4 that was destroyed or damaged, wasn't it, on the night
5 of the 20th of January?
6 A. Your Honours, I'm not familiar with the
7 surname "Salih".
8 Q. The surname is Judarivic.
9 A. Salih Dizdarevic you mean?
10 Q. Correct.
11 A. Yes, I know Salih Dizdarevic, but once again,
12 the kebab shop was not destroyed, it was damaged
13 probably by the bullets.
14 Q. The gift shop owned by Vensar Tatarevic, was
15 that destroyed or damaged on the night of the 20th of
17 A. It was damaged, it was not destroyed. Vensar
18 Tatarevic, I know him. I know the man.
19 Q. The business owned by Kerima Nevzudin, was
20 that business destroyed or damaged on the night of the
21 20th of January?
22 A. I think it was damaged. I don't recall the
23 exact date, but I think it was damaged, that this
24 business was damaged.
25 Q. And all of these individuals were Muslims,
1 weren't they, Mr. Katava?
2 A. Yes, Your Honours, but in addition to those
3 premises, Croatian premises were also damaged by
4 explosives and by shooting. They are premises,
5 businesses next door to each other, and all of them
6 were damaged, but many of these others are not
8 Q. Who carried out this attack on the night of
9 the 20th of January?
10 A. Probably by armed criminals or gangs for
11 whatever reasons, out of revolt, revenge and so on.
12 Q. Armed criminals, Mr. Katava, that UNPROFOR
13 states operated in a pre-planned and coordinated manner
14 against the Muslim population in Busovaca.
15 A. I cannot state my opinions as to that, Your
16 Honours. That is UNPROFOR's stand and view. As far as
17 I know, they were settlings of account between the
18 shopkeepers and the war profiteers, because there was a
19 lot of trading going on with goods that were in short
20 supply, and these were sold at astronomically high
22 Q. There was an atmosphere of terror and fright
23 amongst the Muslim population in Busovaca on the 21st
24 of January, wasn't there, Mr. Katava, and that's why
25 people left, that's why people sent there children
2 A. Your Honours, it was a state of war, and
3 everybody was afraid, the Croats, the Muslims, and we
4 said already that people had sent their wives and
5 children away earlier on, and it is only the
6 military-able men who stayed in Busovaca. So they knew
7 that something was in the making. That's what rumour
8 had. We have an example of this nature too.
9 Q. Mr. Katava, please continue.
10 A. Well, I do have an example. I talked to an
11 acquaintance, a Muslim from Busovaca, and he told me, I
12 think that it says so in the documents too, that there
13 were rumours that the Muslims from Krajina would attack
14 Busovaca, and he said, "I sent my wife and children
15 away. I stayed on here and I have a gun, and if
16 necessary I'm going to hand it over, but then I'm
17 afraid there will be an attack."
18 Q. The Judges of this court, Mr. Katava, have
19 heard evidence from Prosecution witnesses that HVO
20 senior civic leaders warned Muslims, senior Muslims in
21 Busovaca, that there was to be an attack by the HVO and
22 that they should leave for their own safety. Were you
23 aware of that?
24 A. No, Your Honours. I cannot answer that
25 because I'm not aware of this.
1 Q. Now, let's move on to the conflict itself in
2 Busovaca. What date did that take place, the conflict
3 between the Muslims and the Croats in the town of
5 A. Well, Your Honours, I think that this was at
6 the end of January 1993 that military operations
7 started by the Muslim forces against Busovaca.
8 Q. Am I right in saying that during this attack,
9 19 Muslim houses in Kadica Strana were torched by HVO
11 A. Your Honours, during this attack there was a
12 frontline at the Kadica Strana, and they set it up with
13 their own detachment. That was there, and they even
14 had trenches there, and that's where the battle took
16 Q. You didn't answer my question, Mr. Katava.
17 These Judges have heard testimony from witnesses that
18 19 Muslim houses were torched in Kadica Strana by HVO
20 A. There were torched houses, Your Honours, at
21 Kadica Strana, but I'm telling you that fighting took
22 place there at that time, and the fact remains that
23 some houses were burned down, and I don't know the
24 exact number.
25 Q. Now, is it not the case, Mr. Katava, that a
1 large number of Muslim males were imprisoned at the
2 Kaonik military prison after this conflict between the
3 Croats and the Muslims?
4 A. Your Honours, after this conflict and after
5 the cease-fire was brokered, people themselves sought
6 protection. They were simply afraid after the conflict
7 broke out. As the Prosecutor said, they were taken
8 down there for an exchange.
9 Q. How many Muslim males were taken to the
10 Kaonik prison facilities after the 26th of January
11 1993? I think you, yourself, the Judges heard evidence
12 that you, in fact, took somebody to the Kaonik prison
14 A. No, Your Honours, I personally did not take
15 prisoners. And I could not give the exact number, I
16 personally did not take them.
17 Q. How many would you say, approximately, how
18 many prisoners, approximately, were kept at the Kaonik
19 prison facility?
20 A. Your Honours, I could not exactly say how
21 many there were.
22 Q. Would the figure of 400 be correct,
23 Mr. Katava?
24 A. No, I think there were less.
25 Q. More than 300, more than 200?
1 A. Around 200, perhaps. I'm not sure. I cannot
2 give you an exact number.
3 Q. Let me read to you some testimony that the
4 Judges have already heard, and this is Witness Z. Now,
5 are you aware, Mr. Katava, of the murder of Fikret
6 Husanovic, Midhat Hadzibegovic and Nijaz Neslanovic on
7 the 26th of January 1993 by HVO soldiers?
8 INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not hear
9 the witness.
10 Q. Could you repeat the answer to that question?
11 A. Nijaz Neslanovic, is that what you said?
12 Q. Nijaz Neslanovic?
13 A. No, Your Honours, I do not recall that.
14 Q. Midhat Hadzibegovic?
15 A. Your Honours, I don't remember that.
16 Q. Fikret Husanovic?
17 A. Husanovic? No, I do not recall.
18 Q. Let me read to you the testimony of the one
19 survivors from this incident. "Afterwards, when I came
20 to --"
21 MR. HAYMAN: Could we have a page, Counsel?
22 MR. CAYLEY: 6591.
23 Q. "Afterwards when I came to I called out
24 because the others were dead, and I went to the barn of
25 Salihodzic. I stayed there until the morning. In the
1 morning, around 7.00, I headed towards the police
2 station and I got close to the police when I observed
3 Slavko Katava, a policeman whom I called and asked him
4 whether I may approach. He said I could if I was not
5 armed, so I walked up and he asked what was wrong. I
6 asked him to take me where there were other Muslims and
7 so he took me to Kaonik where almost all detainees were
8 Muslims, and so and I got there." Is that you the
9 Slavko Katava described in this statement?
10 JUDGE JORDA: More slowly, please,
11 Mr. Cayley. Repeat it, please.
12 MR. CAYLEY: I won't repeat it all, Mr.
13 President, I'll repeat from halfway through the
15 Q. "In the morning, around 7.00, I headed towards
16 the police station and I got close to the police when I
17 observed Slavko Katava, a policeman whom I called and
18 asked him whether I may approach. He said I could if I
19 was not armed. So I walked up and he asked me what was
20 wrong. I asked him to take me where there were other
21 Muslims, and so he took me to Kaonik where almost all
22 detainees were Muslims, and so, I got there."
23 Now, is this referring to you, Mr. Katava?
24 A. Yes, Your Honour, I am Slavko Katava, and it
25 is possible that I helped the man, because I helped
1 everyone who addressed me. And perhaps if you would
2 tell me the man's name I would remember. I can't
3 remember. Perhaps I took him to Kaonik, but only if he
4 asked me, but I didn't take anyone ever by force.
5 Q. Are you aware, Mr. Katava, that Muslim male
6 prisoners at the Kaonik prison were used by the HVO for
7 trench digging purposes?
8 A. I don't know about that, because I was not at
9 the Kaonik prison, Your Honour, and I don't know what
10 the organisation was like over there.
11 Q. How many times did you visit the Kaonik
13 A. Perhaps only in such a case, if I drove
14 someone to near the prison of Kaonik, because I didn't
15 go there. Perhaps somebody wanted me to drive him
16 there, or something like that.
17 Q. Where did these several hundred Muslim
18 prisoners go after the agreement of February the 8th,
19 when I think they were released under the control of
20 the International Committee for the Red Cross? Where
21 did these people go?
22 A. Your Honours, I think they went to the area
23 of Zenica and Kacuni, and I think it was an exchange,
24 and some Croats from the area of Kacuni came to
25 Busovaca, I believe.
1 Q. Would you agree with me that prior to January
2 there were two-and-a-half to three thousand Bosniak
3 Muslims living in the town of Busovaca?
4 A. I would agree with you. Your Honour, it was
5 half/half, a bit more Croats in Busovaca, but I would
6 agree it was perhaps half/half, about three-and-a-half
7 thousand people in the town itself.
8 Q. Three-and-a-half thousand people in the town
9 itself, approximately half of whom were Croat, half
10 were Muslim.
11 A. Half and half, and a bit more Croats.
12 Q. And after April of 1993, how many Muslims
13 were left in the centre of town in Busovaca?
14 A. I don't know. Your Honour, I don't know
15 exactly. I know that quite a few families remained. I
16 know that my neighbours stayed on, and I can mention
17 them by name, they are still there; but I cannot give
18 you the exact figures because I didn't pay attention to
19 this. I have my own neighbours, three or four families
20 who live in my apartment building, I know them.
21 Q. There were about 20 or 30 Muslims left in
22 Busovaca; weren't there, after April of 1993,
23 Mr. Katava? The Judges have already heard testimony to
24 this effect.
25 A. Your Honour, I think there were more than 30
1 of them.
2 Q. How many, Mr. Katava?
3 A. I do not know the exact number, Your Honour,
4 I already said that. But when I look at my apartment
5 building only, there were three, four families. On
6 average, three members per family, so you can do the
8 MR. CAYLEY: Now, let us go to your report.
9 Could the witness have the exhibit put in front of him,
10 which is now, I think it's Exhibit 450? And if we
11 could look, first of all, at document 96.
12 Q. Now, first of all, Mr. Katava, the village of
13 Bukovici, was that a mixed village of Muslims and
14 Croats, prior to the war?
15 A. Your Honour, it is not Bukovici, it is
16 Bukovci, but the majority of the population was Croat.
17 Q. And the village of Grablje, was that a mixed
18 village of Muslims and Croats?
19 A. Yes, Grablje was a mixed village, Croats,
20 Serbs and Muslims.
21 Q. Now, the village of Gusti Grab, was that a
22 mixed village of Muslims and Croats?
23 A. No, Your Honour, Gusti Grab was a purely
24 Croat village.
25 Q. The village of Javor, was that a mixed
1 village or a purely Croat village?
2 A. The village of Javor is a small village and
3 it was only Croat.
4 Q. The village of Jelinak?
5 A. The village of Jelinak is a mixed village,
6 Muslim and Croatian.
7 Q. Now, the village of Kacuni?
8 A. Also mixed.
9 Q. Muslims and Croats?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The village of Krvavicici?
12 A. Krvavicici is also a small village, only
13 Croats live there.
14 Q. The village of Kula?
15 A. It was a Croatian village, Your Honour.
16 Q. The village of Milavice?
17 A. Also a village with a majority Croat
19 Q. The village of Nezirovici?
20 A. Nezirovici, Your Honour, also a Croat
22 Q. The village of Oseliste?
23 A. Oseliste, yes, a Croat village.
24 Q. The village of Prosje?
25 A. Also a Croat village.
1 Q. The village of Putis?
2 A. Mixed population, but the majority is Croat.
3 Q. So Muslims and Croats, a mixed village?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Solakovici?
6 A. Also mixed.
7 Q. The village of Pirici?
8 A. Pirici, the village of Pirici, that's Croat
9 village, Besici and Turici, that's what it's called.
10 Q. Now, can you tell the Court when the damage
11 to these buildings, these houses was done in these
12 villages, in what year this occurred?
13 A. As soon as the conflict broke out, Your
14 Honour, in 1993.
15 Q. How do you know that?
16 A. That's when people were expelled from those
17 houses and they came to the urban area of Busovaca, and
18 we heard them tell us about these houses being
19 destroyed and burned.
20 Q. Now, in this report it purely concentrates on
21 damage to Croatian property; does it not?
22 A. Yes, Your Honour, this is a report on damages
23 to Croatian property.
24 Q. Now, you state in the report that the
25 Bosniaks propose in the first stage that people should
1 return to Strane, Loncari, Skradno and Kovacevac. What
2 damage was there to Bosnian Muslim homes in those
4 A. What were the damages done to -- what was the
5 damage done to Muslim houses, was that the question?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. Well, the houses were damaged in Loncari,
8 both Croat and Muslim, because this was the frontline,
9 and also the houses in Skradno. Loncari, Jelinak,
10 Putis, all those villages were under Muslim control,
11 and they went back. And now they have returned to
12 Skradno too.
13 Q. Now let's have a look at a map that I've put
14 together, which actually includes -- it is, in fact, on
15 one map so I think it is slightly easier to follow than
16 the Defence exhibit.
17 Mr. Katava, why did you not include in this
18 report the damage to Bosnian Muslim homes in the
19 Busovaca municipality?
20 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo.
21 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, the question is
22 not correct, because my learned friend has asked him
23 why he did not enter the damage to Muslim houses, and
24 the witness said that it is a document of the Busovaca
25 municipality, from the head of the municipality, he
1 just recognised it by virtue of its contents and
2 stamp. It is not the witness who drew up the document.
3 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, that's right, this is not
4 the witness's document. Your question isn't properly
5 formulated. You can ask the witness his opinion in a
6 different way. You can't ask him -- well, maybe it's a
7 question of perception.
8 MR. CAYLEY:
9 Q. So from what Mr. Nobilo is saying, you cannot
10 state whether the information contained in this report
11 is correct or not, you can only simply identify the
12 stamp of Niko Grubesic.
13 MR. NOBILO: I did not say that. I did not
14 say the witness cannot identify it. He confirmed the
15 facts, but he did not compile the document. It was
16 compiled by the municipality, so he doesn't know why
17 only Croat houses were mentioned, but he knows the
18 situation from the document.
19 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I think that's the
20 question Mr. Cayley was asking. Further to your
21 objection, Mr. Cayley said that you can only identify
22 it; isn't that right?
23 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, either he knows
24 the contents of this document are true or not. If he
25 doesn't, he shouldn't be here testifying about this
2 JUDGE JORDA: Let the witness answer. I
3 think that the question has been correctly asked now.
4 Did you understand the question, or do you
5 want the Prosecutor to ask it in a different way?
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, could he repeat the
7 question, please?
8 MR. CAYLEY:
9 Q. Why is there no mention in this report of the
10 damage done to Bosnian Muslim property? You, yourself,
11 confirmed that 19 houses, Muslim houses in Busovaca
12 were torched, that a number of Muslim businesses were
13 damaged. Why is there no mention of this in this
15 A. Your Honours, I recognise this document, and
16 I consider that the facts are true. I see that it was
17 signed by Mayor Grubesic, and when asked by the learned
18 counsel, that the Muslims probably compiled similar
20 And so, they were sent to humanitarian
21 organisations and they expressed the need for help and
22 the number of houses damaged. That is my opinion, and
23 I know from practice that that is what they did.
24 Q. Mr. Katava, was the Federation in existence
25 at the time this document was drafted?
1 A. I believe that it existed, Your Honours, but
2 some services were still separate and we still had a
3 parallel administration. They were not all together.
4 Q. So it's correct, isn't it, that this report
5 makes no mention of all of the damage to Bosnian Muslim
6 housing in the municipality of Busovaca?
7 JUDGE JORDA: The question was already asked,
8 you got an answer to that question, Mr. Cayley. Did
9 you give a number to this map?
10 THE REGISTRAR: That's 551.
11 MR. CAYLEY:
12 Q. Mr. Katava, of the property mentioned in all
13 of these villages, it only refers to Croatian housing
14 in those villages; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, Your Honours, I think that's correct.
16 MR. NOBILO: This question has already been
17 answered at least three times.
18 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, it's clear, Mr. Cayley.
19 You can move to another question.
20 MR. CAYLEY:
21 Q. Mr. Katava, were you in Busovaca throughout
22 the war?
23 A. Yes, I was. Throughout the war I was in
25 Q. Now, I've marked off on here all of the
1 villages that are referred to in this report. In fact,
2 I notice there is one additional that is referred to,
3 Bilalovac, and that is a mistake. But could you go
4 through each of these villages and state to the Judges
5 whether or not these villages were on the line of
6 confrontation between the HVO and Bosnian government
8 A. Possibly.
9 Q. Oseliste?
10 A. Oseliste was under the control of the Muslim
11 forces at the beginning.
12 Q. What I want to know, Mr. Katava, is whether
13 or not it was on a confrontation line, not under whose
14 control it was. Do you understand the question?
15 A. The village of Oseliste is on the border of
16 the Kiseljak municipality and follows on from
18 Q. So Oseliste is a line of confrontation
19 between the HVO and the Bosnian army?
20 A. That was not where the front was, Your
21 Honours. The front was at Berstosko, the Defence lines
22 were there between the HVO and the Muslim army.
23 Q. Gusti Grab?
24 A. Gusti Grab also it is a village next to
1 Q. Was Gusti Grab on a frontline position?
2 A. No, Your Honours.
3 Q. Was there any fighting in the village of
4 Oseliste between the HVO and the Bosnian army?
5 A. There was nobody to fight there in Oseliste.
6 Q. What do you mean by that? What do you mean
7 by there was nobody to fight in Oseliste?
8 A. Well, they were repelled by the majority
9 Muslim forces, they didn't have the chance of fighting.
10 Q. Were there HVO forces based in Oseliste at
11 any time?
12 A. I couldn't say, because I wasn't in the
13 village. I know that the people from that village fled
14 to Kiseljak.
15 Q. So you have no idea whether or not there was
16 HVO based in Oseliste, is that what you're stating to
17 the Judges?
18 A. I don't know. I only know that the people
19 fled in the direction of Kiseljak, that is to say, the
20 locals, the local population of the village of
21 Oseliste, and some of them fell casualty, both women
22 and children.
23 Q. Gusti Grab, were there HVO forces based in
24 Gusti Grab?
25 A. I couldn't confirm that, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley, don't change your
2 direction too much. Either you indicate what your
3 objective is and the Judges can follow you with less
4 difficulty, or if you don't want to say where you're
5 going, then ask the same question. Because I'm still
6 thinking about the question about the frontline, and
7 after that when you talk about each village, you go
8 into different analyses, whether it was HVO or
9 something else.
10 So either tell us what you're looking for,
11 that would be clear, and then you can ask all the
12 questions you want, or else remain with the question
13 that you asked, that is, in each of these villages you
14 can ask whether the confrontation line was there.
15 That's to make things clear.
16 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I think it is
17 probably important to know the answer to both of those
18 questions; one, whether or not the village was on a
19 confrontation line, and two, whether or not there were
20 HVO forces that were based there.
21 JUDGE JORDA: Very well then, that's clear.
22 And then the witness can try to answer whether in each
23 of the villages the various things happened. Try to
24 answer clearly without many digressions. You know
25 we're going to work today until a quarter to 6.00
1 because we resumed at a quarter to 3.00.
2 Gusti Grab, Mr. Katava, Gusti Grab, was it on
3 the frontline, and was HVO in it? Please answer.
4 A. Your Honours, I can show you on the map. You
5 see, the frontline and the delineation between the HVO
6 and the Muslim forces. It was in Donje Polje, and from
7 Donje Polje these places, Kacuni, Gusti Grab, Oseliste
8 and Prosje. That was not controlled by the HVO. So
9 from Donje Polje to Bilalovac, that was under control
10 of the BH army and the frontline was there. If it is
11 easier for me to answer that way, Your Honours.
12 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, may I suggest
13 that the witness point out Donje Polje so we can all
14 see it?
15 JUDGE JORDA: The map should be put on the
16 ELMO or -- and on the easel so that the public can
17 witness what's going on. Remember that this is a
18 public hearing.
19 In the second place, in respect of what you
20 asked the witness, I ask that you repeat the question.
21 Put the map either on the ELMO, so it will be on the
22 monitor, or on the easel, in which case the witness
23 would have to get up. And try to go a little bit
24 faster. All right, then on the ELMO. Can the
25 technical booth show it? All right.
1 Mr. Cayley?
2 MR. CAYLEY:
3 Q. Mr. Katava, if we can go through village by
4 village. Gusti Grab, were there HVO forces based in
5 Gusti Grab?
6 A. Your Honours, I said that in this area --
7 this area was under the control of the Muslim army,
8 from Donje Polje to Bilalovac.
9 JUDGE JORDA: All right. You've got your
10 answer. It was the Muslims forces, it wasn't the HVO.
11 MR. CAYLEY:
12 Q. Prior to April of 1993, were there HVO forces
13 in Gusti Grab?
14 A. People lived there, Croats lived there.
15 Q. In January of 1993, were there HVO forces
16 based in Gusti Grab?
17 A. Well, Your Honours, after the conflict broke
18 out, the Croats from this area were expelled to
19 Busovaca and all of them left the area.
20 JUDGE JORDA: Please get close -- bring the
21 ELMO closer so the witness can sit down, otherwise, he
22 has difficulty concentrating on his answer. Very
24 Mr. Cayley, will you ask your question
25 again? Do you want to move to another village or --
1 MR. CAYLEY:
2 Q. Was there fighting between Muslims and Croats
3 in Gusti Grab?
4 A. There was no fighting, Your Honours, there
5 were just casualties, because the Croats didn't have
6 their units there.
7 Q. In Prosje, were there HVO units based there?
8 A. No, there were not in Prosje.
9 Q. In Nezirovici, were there HVO units based at
10 any time in that village?
11 A. No, Your Honours. The same thing as with the
12 other villages, Nezirovici as well, the people were
13 expelled from there and there were casualties.
14 Q. No HVO in that village at all, Mr. Katava?
15 A. There were Croats who were expelled, but
16 there were no HVO soldiers.
17 Q. In the village of Turici, were there HVO
18 soldiers ever based in that village?
19 A. No. The same thing there. All this was
20 under the control of the Muslim army. The HVO soldiers
21 could not have been there.
22 Q. In Milavice at any time were there HVO
23 soldiers based in that village?
24 A. Milavice are on the confrontation line, the
25 delineation line. Milavice are on the frontline.
1 Q. Between the Bosnian army and the HVO?
2 A. Between the Muslim forces and the HVO, yes.
3 Q. Krvavicici, were there HVO units based there
4 prior to January 1993?
5 A. No. It was a small village and the people
6 had left.
7 Q. In the village of Javor, were there ever HVO
8 units based in that village?
9 A. No, Your Honour, not up there. No one.
10 There were only old men and women there, and they were
11 expelled from up there. This is a very small village
12 above the Muslim villages up there, above Stubice,
13 Sudine, Hozanovici.
14 Q. Solakovici, were there ever HVO units based
15 in that village?
16 A. The village of Solakovici was also on the
17 defence line, the frontline.
18 Q. So there were HVO units based in that
20 A. Your Honour, I didn't understand the name of
21 the village.
22 Q. Solakovici.
23 A. Solakovici? That is a village on the
25 Q. So there was -- there were HVO units based
1 there and combat took place between the Bosnian army
2 and the HVO?
3 A. No, Your Honour, there weren't any HVO units
4 in Solakovici. Solakovici was under Muslim forces'
5 control, and the frontline was in between.
6 Q. In between where, Mr. Katava?
7 A. Between the Muslim forces and the Croatian
8 defence forces.
9 Q. But Solakovici was on the confrontation line
10 between HVO forces and Bosnian Muslim forces?
11 A. Your Honour, there is Donji Solakovici and
12 Gornji Solakovici. Gornji Solakovici was under Bosniak
13 Muslim control, and there were a smaller number of
14 Croatian families there who were expelled to Donji
15 Solakovici. Between Donji Solakovici and Gornji
16 Solakovici there was a line of delineation. I don't
17 know if I've been quite clear now.
18 Q. So there was an upper Solakovici and a lower
19 Solakovici, and the confrontation line ran through the
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In Kula, were there HVO forces based in
24 A. Kula is also on the defence line, on the
25 confrontation line.
1 Q. And there were HVO forces based there and
2 combat took place between the HVO and the Bosnian
3 Muslim forces?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Strane, were there HVO forces based in
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And did fighting take place there between
9 Bosnian Muslim forces and the HVO?
10 A. Not at Strane Your Honour.
11 Q. Grablje, were there HVO forces based in
13 A. No. Grablje was under the control of the
14 Muslim forces.
15 Q. Putis, were there HVO forces based in Putis?
16 A. Putis, Jelinak and Loncari are villages on
17 the frontline itself.
18 Q. So on the confrontation line between Bosnian
19 Muslim forces and the HVO?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And fighting took place in those villages
22 between the HVO and the Bosnian army?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Katava, you state that you are, I
25 think, a member of the HVO civilian police force; is
1 that correct?
2 A. Yes, Busovaca civilian police.
3 Q. Now, is the name of your father Jozo?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you were born on the 21st of September,
7 A. Yes, Your Honour, on the 21st of September,
8 1956 in Donje Polje, municipality of Busovaca.
9 Q. Now, is it not also the case, Mr. Katava,
10 that you have served in the HVO intelligence services,
11 in the SIS? That's the case; isn't it?
12 A. No, Your Honour, I never served in the SIS.
13 I was a policeman at the Busovaca police station
15 Q. Do you know what the SIS is, Mr. Katava?
16 A. I think those are some kind of intelligence
18 Q. Security and information service of the HVO.
19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not
20 hear the answer, I'm sorry.
21 MR. CAYLEY:
22 Q. Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Katava?
23 A. That is the intelligence service, to the best
24 of my knowledge.
25 Q. And you state that you have never served in
1 that organisation?
2 A. I was never a member of any intelligence
4 MR. CAYLEY: Well, we'll come back to that
5 point tomorrow. Mr. President, we can pause now and
6 continue with the cross-examination on the balance of
7 the documents tomorrow.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Not tomorrow morning, it's at
9 2.00, 2.00 tomorrow. Mr. Nobilo?
10 MR. NOBILO: Could we please find out from
11 the registrar how long the direct-examination took and
12 how long has the cross-examination taken so far?
13 Perhaps it would be useful to hear this now.
14 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. There's quite a
15 difference here. Mr. Cayley you have to think that the
16 witness participated in many events, and the Judges
17 want to hear the questions you're asking, but we have
18 to keep a certain balance, a relative balance.
19 THE REGISTRAR: The direct-examination lasted
20 for 30 minutes. I'm not counting the discussions about
21 D450. If I do take that into account, then the
22 direction examination lasted for 1 hour and 40
24 JUDGE JORDA: I don't understand what you're
25 saying there. It was an hour and 40 minutes or 30
2 THE REGISTRAR: Actually, the questions asked
3 took up only 30 minutes, 12 of which were for the
4 projection of the film. But if we count the discussion
5 about the Exhibit 450, that is the document for which
6 there was no translation, then there was 70 minutes of
7 discussion on that. Seventy minutes.
8 JUDGE JORDA: Seventy minutes. In other
9 words, 1 hour and 10 minutes.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's right. That
11 brings us to 1 hour and 40 minutes.
12 JUDGE JORDA: And the --
13 THE REGISTRAR: Now, this is 105 minutes for
14 the Prosecutor up to this point.
15 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, I can feel that
16 you're going to make an objection.
17 MR. NOBILO: Yes, yes. That is a key thing,
18 because procedural questions should not be made at the
19 expense of the direct-examination or the examination as
20 such. If necessary, we are going to make points of
21 order every five minutes. So we should simply see for
22 how long the witness answers the questions of the
23 Prosecutor and how long he answered my questions.
24 JUDGE JORDA: We're not going to look at
25 procedure issues. We're simply going to ask Mr. Cayley
1 simply how much longer he needs.
2 MR. CAYLEY: I'll have to look at the
3 documents first, Mr. President, to give an estimate.
4 The only point I would make is --
5 JUDGE JORDA: Which documents? You know that
6 we said that the first documents are simply documents
7 being filed from A to G, filed the way 456 was filed.
8 We're not going to start that over again.
9 I think that the direct-examination dealt
10 only with the -- J and K. Isn't that right,
11 Mr. Nobilo?
12 As regards the other things, we said that the
13 translations of Tab H should be done. This may mean
14 that the witness has to come back. But as regards
15 documents A through G, in theory, they are being filed
16 the way you filed 456, and you can review them when you
17 like and make any comments you want to make at the
18 proper time, as the Defence did. At least that's what
19 I thought we had decided.
20 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, my understanding
21 of what was decided, with the deepest of respect, is
22 that in respect of --
23 JUDGE JORDA: Well, when I hear people
24 beginning like that, when I hear, "With all the respect
25 I owe you," I must have made a dreadful mistake. All
1 right. That really worries me. What did you want to
3 MR. CAYLEY: I would never suggest that
4 you've made a mistake, Mr. President. My
5 interpretation of what you stated was that in respect
6 of Tab H, we would wait until the documents were
7 translated into English, and if necessary, we would
8 exercise our right to request of the Chamber that we
9 bring the witness back to the Court. In respect of
10 documents A to G inclusive, that we would read these
11 documents overnight, and then if we had any questions
12 of the witness we would ask him tomorrow afternoon. We
13 may not have any questions.
14 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I agree. That means that
15 the Defence has to go back to its direct-examination.
16 Unless it doesn't want to. But it seems to me that the
17 Defence -- excuse me, Mr. Hayman, I'll talk more
18 slowly. It seems to me that the Defence, on purpose,
19 intentionally, asked no questions about A through G.
20 Was that intentional, Mr. Nobilo?
21 MR. NOBILO: The Defence tries to save up
22 time and to bring as many witnesses as possible within
23 a given amount of time. Had we been reading everything
24 with this witness as we did with Slavko Marin, we would
25 have been reading in with him for about seven days. We
1 hope that the relevance of all documents would be
2 understood, and we didn't want to do this through this
3 witness. Mr. Cayley could resort to all the questions
4 he wants to, but within the assigned time.
5 And you saw the cross-examination, and also
6 before that, during the direct-examination, when our
7 time, Defence time, was used on purpose. It is all the
8 same to us what questions are going to be put, but not
9 at the expense of our time.
10 JUDGE JORDA: I don't think that we've
11 understood one another. If you submit the documents A
12 through G and have no question to ask the witness about
13 those documents, we cannot prevent Mr. Cayley from
14 asking questions about documents that you filed covered
15 within A through G. That's what I'm asking you. Was
16 it intentional you did not want to ask any questions
17 about A through G?
18 The registrar is recalling what I said, and I
19 was not wrong. We had authorised the Prosecutor to ask
20 questions about the documents A through G, but insofar
21 as you decided not to ask questions about A through G,
22 I give you back the right to ask them, which means that
23 if the Prosecutor, as it is his intention, wants to ask
24 questions about A through G, because they're here and
25 the witness is here too, at that point, if you like,
1 Mr. Nobilo, tomorrow you can directly examine the
2 witness on the documents A through G, and then there
3 would be cross-examination. But if you waive that
4 right, you waive that right.
5 MR. NOBILO: We have understood the ruling of
6 the court. With your permission, we would like to
7 think about this until tomorrow.
8 However, the crucial thing is that we do not
9 oppose a single question put by the Prosecutor which is
10 within the scope of the examination-in-chief and within
11 the time that we used. We do not oppose any question.
12 However, it is quite noticeable that every one of our
13 witnesses is examined two or three times longer in
14 cross-examination than during direct-examination. We
15 did not have this opportunity while the Prosecution
16 witnesses were being heard, because we were told that
17 this had to be proportionate in terms of time.
18 I can understand it if it was 15, or 20 or 30
19 per cent, but every time 200 per cent, 300 per cent
20 more. I mean, in that case, both parties are not
22 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. This question --
23 there were two possible solutions. Let me be very
24 clear, because I have the impression that we aren't
25 being very clear, and perhaps I wasn't clear.
1 We had thought that documents A through G
2 would be filed as the Prosecutor did with 456. I,
3 rather, was inclined to think that the Defence -- that
4 the Defence did not want to ask any questions about
5 those documents. And it is true, at another point in
6 the discussion, which was a long one, we authorised
7 Mr. Cayley to review the documents A through G so that
8 he could cross-examine the witness. But when you
9 questioned your witness, Mr. Nobilo, I noted that you
10 didn't take up very much time, and that you asked
11 questions only about the documents J and K.
12 Therefore, I thought that I would take away
13 the Prosecution's right to cross-examine the witness on
14 those documents, because you had assumed that the
15 documents A through G would in some way be filed with
16 the Tribunal as the Prosecution had done with 456. All
17 this out of a concern for maintaining equilibrium,
18 since the original objection, Mr. Hayman, had to do
19 with the so-called imbalance that the Judges had
20 allowed in terms of 456.
21 Now Mr. Cayley is reminding me and telling me
22 that, of course, at another point we said so long as
23 the witness is here, Mr. Cayley could take advantage of
24 tomorrow morning to study all of the documents, A
25 through G, and then to cross-examine the witness. And
1 if -- I think that it's natural that should you be
2 limited in any way, it would be natural for you to --
3 for us to give you back the right to ask any questions
4 that you want to ask about A through G. But if you're
5 saying to me that, "All in all we do not intend to ask
6 any questions about A through G," then I will maintain
7 the Prosecutor's right to ask questions, because it was
8 your choice not to ask those questions, or it would be
9 in your choice in any case, but, of course, I will ask
10 the Prosecutor to do it quickly. Is it clear what I've
12 MR. HAYMAN: We think it is clear,
13 Mr. President. We think the Prosecutor should have the
14 right to ask questions about categories A through G
15 within the scope and within the time limits set by Your
16 Honour. The Defence's remedy, should that examination
17 be allowed to go on for a long period of time, would be
18 on redirect examination we believe.
19 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Let me turn to
20 Mr. Cayley, because now the question is clear.
21 You have reviewed the documents A through G,
22 you're going to continue to review them. Can you give
23 us an approximate amount of time it will take you to
24 read them? We can't give you the whole afternoon, that
25 would be difficult, but you can ask the questions you
1 want about them, and then the Defence will decide
2 whether it wants to question the witness.
3 All right, we'll resume tomorrow at 2.00.
4 What do you have, about an hour's worth of questions to
5 ask yet?
6 MR. CAYLEY: I imagine that that's a fair
7 estimate, Mr. President. I will try and get through it
8 in an hour.
9 JUDGE JORDA: All right, about an hour. All
10 right. Since you are -- this is not a
11 cross-examination. I turn to Mr. Nobilo and
12 Mr. Hayman. Because you were self-limited by not
13 asking questions about A through G -- Judge Riad is
14 looking at me with a great deal of indulgence I am
15 repeating myself -- you were frustrated, given the fact
16 that the Prosecutor might need an hour for A through
17 G. At 2.00 tomorrow do you want to take advantage of
18 about a half hour, three-quarters of an hour to ask
19 questions about A through G? You are the one who has
20 to decide about this, it's your witness.
21 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, of course we do
22 not waive our right to redirect, and we shall certainly
23 avail ourselves of that right, but we think that the
24 Prosecutor overstepped his time considerably, and we
25 should have, for the redirect, at least as much time as
1 the Prosecutor is going to use up for documents A
2 through G which we did not examine the witness on
3 yesterday, because this is going to be something
4 completely new, something that we hadn't discussed. So
5 if the Prosecutor needs an hour for that, then we need
6 an hour too.
7 JUDGE JORDA: That's fine. Then you have the
8 redirect time. So you'll have all the time you need,
9 if you agree.
10 Tomorrow -- I turn to my colleagues. Do you
11 agree with me? We will begin at 2.00.
12 If you agree, Mr. Cayley, I won't give you
13 the floor immediately, I'll give it to Mr. Nobilo so he
14 could begin his examination, which will last a half
15 hour, three-quarters of an hour, unless he wants to do
16 it through redirect. Would you rather do it through
17 redirect? All right. That's even easier then. That
18 would make things even easier.
19 All right. Mr. Cayley, tomorrow we will give
20 you the floor at 2.00 for about an hour, about an hour,
21 I say. Then you have redirect time which -- for which
22 time you will not be limited by the Judges. We hope
23 that we'll be able to finish by tomorrow afternoon,
24 because the Judges have some questions that they're
25 going to want to ask also.
1 Have I succeeded in being clear this time?
2 All right. Court stands adjourned and we
3 will resume tomorrow at 2.00.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
5 5.58 p.m. to be reconvened on Wednesday,
6 the 25th day of November, 1998
7 at 2.00 p.m.