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  1. 1 Wednesday, 25th November, 1998

    2 (Open session)

    3 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Have the accused brought in,

    5 Mr. Registrar.

    6 (The accused entered court)

    7 JUDGE JORDA: First of all, would I like to

    8 say good afternoon to the interpreters, and to

    9 everybody else as well, to make sure everybody can

    10 hear, the Prosecutor, the Defence, and then we can

    11 resume our work. We'll work today until 6.15, since we

    12 didn't begin before 2.15. We'll work until 6.15. Let

    13 me check our permanent clock, the registrar.

    14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's correct.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: Let's have the witness brought

    16 in. Mr. Katava.

    17 (The witness entered court)

    18 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, good afternoon.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley.

    20 MR. CAYLEY: And Your Honours. Just as we're

    21 waiting for the witness to settle, may I introduce

    22 Patricia Reynders who will be our case manager. A new

    23 face in the courtroom. She will be our case manager

    24 for the foreseeable future.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: We'll say good afternoon to

  2. 1 Patricia Reynders. I'm sure she speaks French

    2 perfectly. Thank you for your answer. We want to

    3 welcome her very heartily to this courtroom.

    4 Mr. Katava, do you feel all right. Did you

    5 rest up a bit?

    6 A. Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. All right.

    8 Mr. Cayley, I suppose you didn't sleep a wink last

    9 night. You have files in your mind, files in front

    10 you, briefs, but we're going to look at the real clock

    11 now, turning to the registrar. Let's say it's 2.30, so

    12 you have about, I say about, about, a half hour for

    13 your cross-examination about all of the documents, and

    14 the Defence will have the same amount of time for its

    15 redirect. So without any further ado, we can begin

    16 now. All right. Mr. Cayley, proceed.

    17 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, you said about a

    18 half an hour. I think you meant about an hour. Is

    19 that right?

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, I know your sense of

    21 humour, Mr. Cayley. I do note that the translators had

    22 also such a good sense of humour and would also distort

    23 my words. No, it's an hour, an hour. I said

    24 approximately an hour, because we're not going to count

    25 every second.

  3. 1 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

    2 WITNESS: MR. KATAVA (continued)

    3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Katava.

    4 A. Good afternoon.

    5 Q. Now, in your examination-in-chief you said

    6 that in '92 and '93, 1992 and 1993, the police force in

    7 Busovaca was poorly equipped and organised. Would that

    8 be a fair summary of what you stated?

    9 A. Your Honour, I said that they worked within

    10 the scope of their possibilities, the material and

    11 technical equipment they had available. I did not say

    12 that they were equipped.

    13 Q. That's fine. Your answer's fine,

    14 Mr. Katava. Now, five years has passed, and peace has

    15 come and the Federation police force has been formed.

    16 Would you say that the police force in Busovaca has

    17 improved during that time in terms of its quality?

    18 A. Well, now we have conditions that are a bit

    19 better, so we work a bit better too. Also we've been

    20 rather successful in structuring the police, and there

    21 is training too, Your Honours, so the police force is

    22 of a different quality now.

    23 Q. So it would be fair to say that things are

    24 better now than they were in 1992 and 1993?

    25 A. In 1992 and 1993 there was a war on and now

  4. 1 it's peacetime.

    2 Q. Now, if the witness can have placed in front

    3 of him Exhibit 450. Defence Exhibit 450.

    4 Now, Mr. Katava, you're familiar with the

    5 documents contained in this file?

    6 A. Yes, Your Honour, yes, I am.

    7 Q. Did you select these documents, sir, for the

    8 purposes of your testimony?

    9 A. No, I didn't, Your Honour. This is only part

    10 of the documents that were put forth to me by the

    11 lawyers. There are more documents on this. These are

    12 documents related to the way in which we worked then.

    13 Q. So I'm right in saying that Mr. Nobilo

    14 selected the documents that are in that file?

    15 A. I don't know who selected the documents. I

    16 had a look at them though.

    17 Q. So you -- although you're familiar with those

    18 documents, you have no idea upon what basis they were

    19 selected for your testimony?

    20 A. I don't know, Your Honour.

    21 Q. Now, you've just stated that these documents

    22 are only part of the documents that were put forth by

    23 you to the lawyer. How many more documents are there

    24 other than these that are contained in this file?

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo?

  5. 1 MR. NOBILO: My learned colleague is twisting

    2 the witness's words. The witness did not say that he

    3 had put forth the documents to me, but that he had seen

    4 these documents with the Defence. So it's not this

    5 witness that put them forth to me. He didn't bring any

    6 documents to me at all.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: I would like to consult my

    8 colleagues on a point.

    9 Mr. Cayley, the Judges were concerned about

    10 the -- about your not overly interfering in the

    11 relationships between the witness and his counsel. You

    12 can ask for some information, but you should always be

    13 concerned about the code of ethics. All right?

    14 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President.

    15 Q. Mr. Katava, did you yourself select the pool

    16 of documents from which the documents contained in this

    17 file were selected?

    18 A. No, Your Honour, I did not make a selection

    19 of any documents. I simply corroborated the

    20 authenticity of the documents that I had seen. Among

    21 these documents are some that I had personally drafted,

    22 but I did not select them.

    23 Q. Are there many more documents similar to

    24 these at the Busovaca police station?

    25 A. Probably. Notes similar to these.

  6. 1 Q. And those notes would fall into the same

    2 categories as are listed in A to K on this index. In

    3 fact, A to G, because that's all we're dealing with

    4 today.

    5 A. Well, Your Honour, probably, because we took

    6 note of everything we did. These documents are more or

    7 less the same like these, made according to the same

    8 principle, that is.

    9 Q. Now, you have just stated that, in fact, a

    10 number of the documents in this selection were drafted

    11 by you. Now, for how many years have you worked at the

    12 Busovaca police station?

    13 A. Your Honours, I did not set aside these

    14 documents. I simply said that among these documents

    15 are some that I had personally drafted, but I did not

    16 distinguish between the documents in any way.

    17 Q. Mr. Katava, I asked you how many years you'd

    18 served in the Busovaca police station.

    19 A. From 1977 I have been working in the Busovaca

    20 police station. For three years before that I worked

    21 in the Teslic police station.

    22 Q. And you are very familiar with the way

    23 documents are drafted at the police station, with your

    24 over 20 years of experience?

    25 A. Yes, I am familiar with the way in which

  7. 1 these documents are drafted.

    2 Q. Now, if we can turn to document 13, which I

    3 think is a document that you drafted. Do you have that

    4 in front of you?

    5 A. Yes, Your Honours.

    6 Q. Now, you'll see underneath the title of the

    7 document there is a file number. Can you explain to

    8 the Judges how the file numbering system worked at the

    9 Busovaca police station?

    10 A. I think that this is the protocol of the

    11 Busovaca police station. This is an official note, and

    12 it was registered, and it concerns a certain event.

    13 Q. And every official document that was drafted

    14 at the police station had a protocol number like this

    15 one?

    16 A. I don't know whether every one of them had

    17 one, but every official document is supposed to have a

    18 protocol number.

    19 Q. So every official document that was drafted

    20 at the police station had a file number; is that

    21 correct?

    22 A. I cannot claim that every document had one,

    23 Your Honour, I can only speak of the documents I see in

    24 front of me, but it is customary practice in any

    25 institution to have file numbers. That is as much as I

  8. 1 know about protocols.

    2 Q. And you yourself, of course, worked in the

    3 police station for more than 20 years; didn't you?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. And during that time it was customary, it was

    6 practice, for all official documents to have file

    7 numbers attached to them, wasn't it, Mr. Katava?

    8 A. Yes. For as long as the system functioned,

    9 that's the way we did it. We, the policemen, wrote our

    10 notes and the protocol was then taken care of by other

    11 people, because I would simply draft a report, and then

    12 I would give this to my superiors who would then deal

    13 with the protocol. I didn't interfere with the

    14 protocol. Our job was to submit the documents that we

    15 would write to our superior officers and that was it.

    16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Katava. Now, if we can turn

    17 to tab F, section F. Now, I think these are statements

    18 of Muslims desiring to leave Busovaca; is that

    19 correct? Mr. Katava, is this the section that deals

    20 with the statements of Muslims desiring to leave

    21 Busovaca?

    22 A. Please allow me, Your Honours, to have a look

    23 at this document.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, of course. Go ahead.

    25 A. Yes, that is the section that speaks of the

  9. 1 voluntary departures and stating the reasons why they

    2 were leaving.

    3 MR. CAYLEY:

    4 Q. And that accords with the index which is in

    5 English at the front of this exhibit.

    6 Now let us look at Exhibit 36. Now, this, I

    7 think, which is again part of this section on the

    8 statements of Muslims desiring to leave Busovaca, is a

    9 statement taken from a Muslim soldier summoned to the

    10 Busovaca police station and asked a number of questions

    11 about the conflict in January of 1993.

    12 A. Yes, Your Honours. This document is a

    13 statement made by a friend of mine, the one I mentioned

    14 yesterday. He came of his own free will and said what

    15 he did. He said that his wife and children went to

    16 Kacuni and that he stayed there, and that he is

    17 prepared to co-operate. That's the only thing it says,

    18 nothing else.

    19 I mean, we did not question him. He came to

    20 the station of his own free will, and he gave this

    21 statement to my colleague. I personally know the

    22 gentlemen who made this statement.

    23 Q. But this statement generally concerns a

    24 Muslim soldier speaking to the authorities about his

    25 role in the conflict in January, does it not,

  10. 1 Mr. Katava?

    2 A. He came on his own and he said what he wanted

    3 to say, and my colleagues simply wrote this down and

    4 that is what is in this document.

    5 Q. Mr. Katava, you're not answering my

    6 question. My question is this: This statement is

    7 describing the role of a Muslim soldier in the conflict

    8 in January; isn't it? It has nothing to do with that

    9 man's voluntary departure from the municipality of

    10 Busovaca. The Judges have the statement in front of

    11 them.

    12 A. Yes. This man came voluntarily and explained

    13 the role he had in Busovaca at that time. Nobody

    14 forced him to do it. And all this information was

    15 written down by my colleague and entered in this

    16 document.

    17 Q. Let's move on to document 37. Now, this, I

    18 think, is a document where five Muslim males -- I think

    19 they're males but certainly five Muslims -- are asking

    20 for approval from the police station in Busovaca to

    21 leave the municipality on a voluntary basis; is that

    22 correct?

    23 A. Yes, Your Honour. This document states that

    24 we had a regular practice to take statements from

    25 people who wished to leave Busovaca voluntarily.

  11. 1 Q. Mr. Katava, why was it necessary for people

    2 who were volunteering to leave the municipality to seek

    3 your approval?

    4 A. We had instructions to protect people, to see

    5 whether someone was mistreating them, to see whether

    6 somebody was forcing them to leave. For those reasons.

    7 Q. But why was it necessary for an individual

    8 who wished to leave of their own free will to obtain a

    9 permit to leave the municipality?

    10 MR. HAYMAN: Asked and answered, Your Honour.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps the answer was not

    12 complete. Mr. Cayley, you can continue with the

    13 question. It's a relevant question. Go ahead,

    14 Mr. Cayley.

    15 Mr. Katava, try to answer. Why would

    16 somebody of his own free will ask for authorisation to

    17 leave the city?

    18 Mr. Hayman, did you want to say something

    19 further?

    20 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President, he answered the

    21 question point-blank, straight on, and for the question

    22 to be repeated and for the Court to admonish him is

    23 serious.

    24 JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Hayman, I was set on English

    25 and not French. I did not understand the answer.

  12. 1 MR. HAYMAN: May I explain?

    2 JUDGE RIAD: Well, you give us the answer.

    3 MR. HAYMAN: Well, I won't give the answer,

    4 Your Honour, but I can state what the witness stated.

    5 Mr. Cayley said: Why would it be necessary for a

    6 person to come to the police station to get a permit

    7 who wanted to leave the municipality? The witness

    8 said: We were instructed to do so, to interact with

    9 these people, because it was our job to protect them

    10 and make sure they weren't being forced to leave.

    11 So by regulating the departure of people, it

    12 was an effort, according to the witness, to make sure

    13 they weren't being intimidated, threatened, and forced

    14 to leave. He has answered the question in a very

    15 poignant and pointed way.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, by speaking too

    17 long, you begin to dictate the answers that you might

    18 prefer to hear the witness say. I have to ensure

    19 balance in these proceedings.

    20 Mr. Cayley, take into account the answer that

    21 you have been given, but you can go on with the same

    22 theme; that is, to know how or why, in a free city,

    23 people could not come in or go out normally? I think

    24 this would be of interest to the Judges. It is true

    25 that I don't want you to ask the question exactly in

  13. 1 the same way.

    2 MR. CAYLEY:

    3 Q. Now, Mr. Katava, we'll move on to

    4 mistreatment of people within the municipality. Simply

    5 this: Why was it necessary for an individual who

    6 wished to leave of their own free will to obtain a

    7 permit from the police station so to do?

    8 A. Your Honours, at that time, checkpoints had

    9 been set up. There was a curfew in order to prevent

    10 crime, and we had instructions that we talk to these

    11 people, question them, and see why they were leaving

    12 Busovaca; and with their permits, they could then go

    13 across these checkpoints if they expressed the desire

    14 to leave, but only once we had ascertained that nobody

    15 had forced them to leave or had mistreated them.

    16 Q. Why was it necessary for them to hand their

    17 keys over to the police, the keys to their houses?

    18 A. No, this was not compulsory for everybody.

    19 Those who left from other people's houses would leave

    20 those keys which would be handed over to the centre for

    21 social work and for the refugees, the refugee centres.

    22 Q. Let's look at Exhibit 37 where it states in

    23 respect to five individuals leaving. When they were

    24 leaving, they brought the keys to their houses to the

    25 police station and handed them in.

  14. 1 Why were those keys handed in to the police

    2 station, Mr. Katava?

    3 A. In this document, Your Honours, you can see

    4 that these are refugees from Jajce, Doboj, Rogatica, so

    5 they were taken in in Busovaca and accommodated in

    6 other people's houses. Once they left Busovaca, it

    7 would be normal for them to return the keys because the

    8 houses weren't their property, and they went of their

    9 own free will to join up with their families.

    10 Q. Let's look at documents 38 and 39,

    11 Mr. Katava. Now, document 38 is again a statement, an

    12 official note being made by a Muslim leaving Busovaca

    13 who is required to make an affirmative statement that

    14 he's neither being mistreated by the police or by any

    15 citizens in Busovaca. Were Muslims mistreated by the

    16 police in Busovaca?

    17 A. No, Your Honour. From this document, one can

    18 see that statements were not taken -- this is just a

    19 note taken by the policeman when he questioned this

    20 particular individual, and from these notes, you can

    21 see that I myself was present, and that when the man

    22 put forward his reasons, we allowed him to leave

    23 Busovaca with his family, and my own name is mentioned

    24 in this document. So we did not mistreat anybody. I

    25 personally never mistreated anybody.

  15. 1 Q. Why was it necessary for an individual to

    2 make an affirmative statement that they had not been

    3 mistreated by the police, Mr. Katava?

    4 A. This is official notes or records, Your

    5 Honour, made by a policeman written on the basis of the

    6 talk he had with the individual in question mentioned

    7 in the document.

    8 Q. Mr. Katava, again, you're not answering my

    9 question. Why was it necessary for an individual

    10 Muslim leaving Busovaca to make an affirmative

    11 statement that they had not been mistreated by the

    12 police?

    13 A. Your Honours, I think that I have answered.

    14 We did not insist that people make affirmative

    15 statements saying that the police did not mistreat

    16 them. This was just an observation made by the

    17 particular policeman saying that the man had left of

    18 his own free will and that he had not been mistreated

    19 by anybody, and that is the statement, what the man

    20 told the policeman, and the policeman made his own

    21 notes and wrote them down.

    22 Q. Let's go to document 39, Mr. Katava. Now,

    23 again, I think in this statement, it states in the

    24 first paragraph: "I remained in the house where I also

    25 did not have any problems such as harassment by the

  16. 1 local inhabitants of Busovaca or the police."

    2 So the same phrase is in this official note

    3 as well, isn't it, Mr. Katava?

    4 A. Just one moment, please, Your Honour, for me

    5 to read the statement, if I may?

    6 Q. The last sentence, first paragraph.

    7 A. This document was also drawn up by the same

    8 policeman as the one a moment ago and probably this is

    9 the form in which he wrote these official documents,

    10 and this is a statement in this case, the statement

    11 that the individual gave to the policeman who was my

    12 colleague.

    13 Q. Muslims were mistreated by the police,

    14 weren't they, Mr. Katava, in Busovaca, and that's why

    15 it was necessary in these documents for these people to

    16 state that they were not being mistreated by the

    17 police? That was required for them to be able to

    18 leave, wasn't it, Mr. Katava?

    19 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, my learned

    20 colleague is not asking questions, he is entering into

    21 a discussion of opinions with the witness.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, Mr. Cayley, Mr. Nobilo is

    23 right. Ask your question, but make a comment at

    24 another time. Ask the question, ask it clearly.

    25 MR. CAYLEY:

  17. 1 Q. Let's move on to document 40, Mr. Katava, and

    2 here I think if you look in the second paragraph,

    3 you'll find that it states: "I had no problems when

    4 the fighting broke out or afterwards and was not

    5 mistreated by members of the HVO."

    6 A. What is your question, Your Honours?

    7 Q. In the previous three documents, Mr. Katava,

    8 we have seen that every single Muslim who wanted to

    9 leave had to state that they were not either being

    10 mistreated by the HVO or by the police. It was a

    11 standard requirement, wasn't it, Mr. Katava, that

    12 Muslims had to make that declaration before they could

    13 leave Busovaca?

    14 A. It was not a requirement, Your Honour. We

    15 had this standard practice, to ask them for protection

    16 purposes, why they were leaving, had they been

    17 mistreated, had they been beaten, had they been thrown

    18 out and mistreated? So in this statement, it clearly

    19 states the reasons why this individual is leaving

    20 Busovaca with his family because he has a family living

    21 outside Busovaca and wants to join up with that part of

    22 his family. Nobody mistreated these individuals or

    23 forced them to make statements of this kind. Quite

    24 simply, people asked to leave, and you know what it's

    25 like in a war.

  18. 1 Q. Now, Mr. Katava, if a Muslim wanted to enter

    2 the municipality of Busovaca from outside, did they

    3 also require permission or a permit from the police?

    4 A. At that time, they had to go to the police

    5 and say why they had come, state why they had come.

    6 Q. I think that document 41 is, in fact, an

    7 example of that, is it not?

    8 A. May I have a few minutes to look through it?

    9 Q. Please.

    10 A. Yes, Your Honours, this is an official note

    11 made by my colleague, the policeman, from which we can

    12 see that Mr. Muminovic, with his wife, had come to

    13 Busovaca during the cease-fire and that he was brought

    14 by a neighbour, Milinovic, a Croat. That is what is

    15 noted in this document, nothing else. That is to say,

    16 that the man had returned from Vitez to Busovaca with

    17 his wife.

    18 Q. This document also notes that he had returned

    19 without a previous approval or entry permit issued by

    20 the Busovaca police station, doesn't it, Mr. Katava?

    21 A. It means that Mr. Muminovic did not report to

    22 the police station, and the policeman took note of the

    23 fact that he did not come to the police station but

    24 went home, and he went home because a friend,

    25 Mr. Milinovic, had brought him home.

  19. 1 Q. If an individual arrived in Busovaca without

    2 approval or an entry permit, would they be summoned to

    3 the police station in Busovaca?

    4 A. They would not, Your Honours, because the

    5 police has its own method of work. The policeman in

    6 the field would ascertain why the man had come. He

    7 would talk to him. He would get information as to why

    8 the person had arrived.

    9 Q. Well, let's look at document 42 in which an

    10 individual arrived in Busovaca without a permit and who

    11 was, in fact, you'll see, at the top of this document,

    12 summoned to appear at the police station. Now, this

    13 man was summoned, wasn't he, to the Busovaca police

    14 station, because he didn't have a permit to be living

    15 in Busovaca?

    16 A. No, Your Honours, this individual was not

    17 summoned. We are dealing with two people here who were

    18 arrested by the police during the curfew and taken to

    19 the police station. So it was curfew. They were

    20 moving around during the curfew, two unknown

    21 individuals, and they were taken to the police station

    22 at Busovaca, and this is the statement which says that

    23 they were taken to the police station during the curfew

    24 hours.

    25 Q. Let's go to document 43, Mr. Katava. Now,

  20. 1 this document concerns two individuals who had come to

    2 visit relatives in Busovaca, two individuals, and they

    3 needed a permit even whilst on a visit simply to get

    4 out of Busovaca again, didn't they?

    5 A. May I read through the document, please, Your

    6 Honours?

    7 Q. Please.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: I don't have to tell you each

    9 time, Mr. Katava, but every time you want to read one,

    10 of course, you can, before you answer any of the

    11 Prosecutor's questions.

    12 A. Your Honours, this is an individual who

    13 wished to return to Busovaca because they did not have

    14 the means of livelihood here. It is a refugee from

    15 Jajce, and his wife and children were in Janjici near

    16 Zenica, and he had gone to Busovaca to get the means

    17 for a livelihood. He entered Busovaca during the

    18 curfew, and that is what this document states, that he

    19 entered Busovaca while the curfew was in force, and I

    20 think that that is what the document states.

    21 Q. You're looking at the wrong document,

    22 Mr. Katava. It's document 43. I think you are looking

    23 at document 42.

    24 A. Forty-three?

    25 Q. Forty-three.

  21. 1 A. Forty-three. I have number 43.

    2 Q. Mine may be misnumbered. Document 43, does

    3 it begin: "Compiled on 29 March, 1993 on the premises

    4 of the Busovaca police station"?

    5 A. Yes, that's how it begins, and it is about

    6 Mr. Cazim Arnautovic.

    7 Q. That's document 42. I think if you turn to

    8 your next document ...

    9 A. The number I have is 43.

    10 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Nobilo, I have the same

    11 numbering system as you.

    12 MR. NOBILO: Yes. What I have is Cazim

    13 Arnautovic number 42, whereas Senad Dindic is 43.

    14 Senad Dindic is 43. And you should have the same. So

    15 the note is "Compiled on 29 March, '93" for Senad

    16 Dindic. Have you found it?

    17 A. Yes, I have found it, but I have number 42.

    18 It's numbered as 42.

    19 JUDGE RIAD: It was number 42 and now it is

    20 43 in my copy.

    21 MR. CAYLEY: I think everybody else, Judge

    22 Riad, has 43 apart from the witness.

    23 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I apologise.

    24 There seems to be an error by my associates compiling

    25 this file. I would now like to say that Senad Dindic

  22. 1 is 43 and Cazim Arnautovic would be 42. So that the

    2 minority can put this right. So Senad Dindic was 43

    3 and Cazim Arnautovic was 42 and the date is the same.

    4 The official notes were written on the same date.

    5 Probably that is why the error occurred.

    6 MR. CAYLEY:

    7 Q. Mr. Katava, have you had the opportunity to

    8 read document 43?

    9 A. I'll just take a few minutes to read it.

    10 JUDGE RIAD: Forty-three after the

    11 correction?

    12 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Judge. I think your file

    13 was correct. I think it was only the witness's.

    14 JUDGE RIAD: You want Senad Dindic or --

    15 MR. REGISTRAR: Dindic is 43.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Are you finished Mr. Katava?

    17 A. Yes, Your Honour. These are two persons,

    18 Esad Kalauzovic and Senad Dindic. It is obvious from

    19 this document as well that these two persons were

    20 moving around during the curfew, and, therefore, they

    21 were brought into the police station. As they were

    22 brought in, they expressed a wish to leave Busovaca,

    23 with their families, and all of that can be seen from

    24 this document.

    25 So they were moving around during the curfew

  23. 1 and they were brought into the station, these two

    2 persons, Esad -- sorry Senad Dindic and Esad

    3 Kalauzovic.

    4 MR. CAYLEY:

    5 Q. In fact, Mr. Katava, these two individuals

    6 came to Busovaca, and 12 people left; didn't they? Ten

    7 members of their family left with them after they'd

    8 been to the police station.

    9 A. Your Honour, it says here, literally, as they

    10 expressed the wish to leave with their -- to take their

    11 families to Zenica, this wish of theirs was granted and

    12 then they left. This is probably a mistake; they left

    13 on the 29th with their families. They could not leave

    14 without their families when they were in Busovaca.

    15 Q. But these two individuals had come from

    16 outside the Busovaca municipality, Mr. Katava, to

    17 Busovaca initially; isn't that right?

    18 A. These individuals, and it says so here very

    19 nicely, Your Honours, it says that they were moving

    20 around during the curfew. They and their families were

    21 staying in Busovaca, and after that they asked to leave

    22 Busovaca.

    23 Q. So your testimony is that these two Muslim

    24 males were walking around during curfew hours, they

    25 were collected by the police, taken to the police

  24. 1 station, and then suddenly just decided to leave

    2 Busovaca with their families? Is that your testimony?

    3 A. Your Honours, I repeat what this document

    4 says. This document was written by a colleague of

    5 mine, a policeman, and it says here, literally, that

    6 they were brought in by the police after they were

    7 asked for their IDs, and the reason for this was they

    8 were walking around during curfew hours. Also, that a

    9 conversation was carried out with them afterwards why

    10 they were walking around during curfew hours, and they

    11 said they had come to see their relatives who were

    12 staying in the house of Bitic Ramiza, to see them

    13 there, to see their relatives.

    14 Q. Then it goes on to say, Mr. Katava, that

    15 after the interview, in your presence and the presence

    16 of Nikica Petrovic, these two gentlemen asked for a

    17 permit enabling them and their families to leave

    18 Busovaca municipality. Do you see that?

    19 A. Yes, that is what it says here, Your Honour,

    20 that after the conversation they asked to leave

    21 Busovaca.

    22 Q. Let's move on to the next document, which is

    23 document 44. Now, this, I think, is a document where

    24 this gentlemen asked three times to voluntarily leave

    25 Busovaca.

  25. 1 A. Do you please repeat the number once again?

    2 Q. Document 44.

    3 A. Your Honours, Faik Kresevljak is number 44

    4 and this pertains to another person. This man is from

    5 Busovaca. I know him personally, Faik Kresevljak.

    6 Q. Why did this gentlemen have to ask three

    7 times to voluntarily leave Busovaca?

    8 A. I personally know Faik, this individual.

    9 This is a person whose mental health is not all that

    10 great, and you will see, Your Honours, that he and his

    11 wife kept coming to the police all the time, because it

    12 was great fun for them to come to the police. They

    13 lived on their own, they had nothing else to do, and

    14 they had something to report all the time. Why he said

    15 this, that is his own personal affair, but what he said

    16 was also reported in this statement. I mean, I think

    17 that finally this individual did leave the municipality

    18 of Busovaca of his own free will.

    19 Q. And I think the final document, document 45,

    20 is, again, a Muslim being required to have a permit to

    21 re-enter the municipality of Busovaca.

    22 A. Yes. This document also speaks of a lady

    23 whom I know. Before the conflict she left Busovaca.

    24 She went to the area of Vitez, and at this time she

    25 returned to Busovaca. She returned during curfew

  26. 1 hours, and that is why the police interviewed her. And

    2 she made a statement to the police that she came on

    3 foot via a certain checkpoint, and you can't see

    4 anything else from here.

    5 She returned during curfew hours, and she

    6 made a statement to the police that she came on foot

    7 from Vitez to Busovaca, and that before the conflict

    8 she went to Vitez, and this is to say that she returned

    9 at this time.

    10 Q. Let me read to you the third paragraph:

    11 "Because of the curfew and restrictions on movement,

    12 the above named has asked, on a number of occasions, to

    13 be allowed to return to Busovaca, and since a permit is

    14 needed both to enter and leave Busovaca, on 29 March,

    15 1993 she arrived in Busovaca without the necessary

    16 entry permit."

    17 Now, my question is this: It was the

    18 requirement for Muslims to have a permit from the

    19 police to either leave or enter the municipality,

    20 wasn't it, Mr. Katava?

    21 A. No, Your Honours. This is to say that

    22 everybody needed a permit to move around during curfew

    23 hours. Everybody had to have a permit in order to be

    24 allowed to walk around during curfew hours.

    25 This is not a gentlemen, this is a lady Enisa

  27. 1 Merdan. I know her personally. It says here that she

    2 left Busovaca before the conflict. She went to Vitez,

    3 and then she came back via this checkpoint on foot,

    4 which she told my colleagues. So no one is allowed to

    5 move around during curfew hours without a specific

    6 permit. This is police work, and one knows who is

    7 allowed to move around during curfew hours. It did not

    8 pertain only to Muslims, it pertained to all citizens.

    9 Q. If you look at this document, in the final

    10 paragraph, Mr. Katava, you'll find that she, in fact,

    11 arrived at 2.00 in the afternoon on the 29th of March,

    12 1993. Do you see that?

    13 A. Yes, I see that.

    14 Q. Was that curfew hour, 2.00 in the afternoon?

    15 A. Yes, yes. All the time. The curfew was on

    16 for 24 hours a day.

    17 Q. So your testimony to the Court is there was a

    18 24-hour curfew? Nobody at all was allowed out on the

    19 streets without a permit from the police?

    20 A. For reasons of safety and security. We've

    21 already taken care of this. We've said this before.

    22 Q. So am I correct in saying that anybody,

    23 Muslim or Croat, needed permission from the police in

    24 Busovaca to be moving about in the street at any time

    25 of the day?

  28. 1 A. During the curfew one had to have a permit,

    2 and when it is not curfew hours --

    3 Q. Mr. Katava, what were the hours of curfew?

    4 A. Well, it depends on the people who reached

    5 this decision on curfew hours.

    6 Q. You've just stated to the Court that curfew

    7 was 24 hours a day. Was it not 24 hours a day?

    8 A. During one period of time it was, Your

    9 Honours, but I cannot remember exactly which period

    10 this was, but probably it was that period. If it says

    11 here that it was during curfew hours, then it was

    12 during curfew hours, because I trust the colleague who

    13 wrote this.

    14 Q. So your testimony is that at 2.00 on the 29th

    15 of March, 1993, this woman was travelling during curfew

    16 hours and that's why she needed a permit to re-enter

    17 Busovaca?

    18 A. I'm not asserting that, Your Honour. I'm

    19 simply stating what this document says. My colleague

    20 said that this person was moving about during curfew

    21 hours and that is what it says here.

    22 Q. Where does it say in the final paragraph that

    23 she arrived during curfew hours, Mr. Katava?

    24 A. In the last paragraph, Your Honours, it says

    25 that she arrived on foot, that she had hitchhiked, she

  29. 1 stopped a vehicle that was going towards Busovaca, and

    2 then from the checkpoint at Sunce she continued, went

    3 on foot and entered Busovaca. As she entered Busovaca,

    4 she did not have any problems because probably people

    5 knew her. I mean, the persons manning the checkpoint

    6 at Sunce probably knew her and allowed her to go home.

    7 Q. It doesn't say anything about a curfew, does

    8 it, Mr. Katava, at 2.00 in the afternoon?

    9 A. In the last paragraph, no mention is made of

    10 the curfew.

    11 Q. Now, all of these documents in section F --

    12 A. I'm sorry, Your Honours, but there's

    13 something wrong with the volume.

    14 Q. Mr. Katava, is your headset working

    15 satisfactorily now?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Now, all of these documents, from 36 to 45,

    18 do you recall, earlier in your testimony, you stated it

    19 was customary for documents to have a protocol number?

    20 You will find that not one of these documents has a

    21 protocol number. Have those numbers been removed,

    22 Mr. Katava?

    23 A. No, Your Honours. You saw the document that

    24 I had personally drafted. As an experienced policeman,

    25 I wrote a certain protocol number which I knew from

  30. 1 earlier on, and this document was done by a colleague

    2 of mine who did not take care of the protocol. He

    3 simply left a space for the number and the date. This

    4 was done by my colleague.

    5 Q. You said earlier in your testimony,

    6 Mr. Katava, that you didn't insert the protocol

    7 numbers, that it was done by your superiors. Do you

    8 recall that?

    9 A. No. I said, Your Honours, that we had the

    10 following practice in the police, and this practice

    11 prevails to the present day, that the policeman writes

    12 a document and submits it to his superior officer, and

    13 the policeman did not take care of the protocol.

    14 Q. So from documents 36 to 45, on each of these

    15 occasions the police officer forgot to insert a file

    16 number. If you can find a file number on any of these

    17 documents, Mr. Katava, I would be very interested,

    18 because it means you have a different set than me. Are

    19 there any file numbers on any of these documents?

    20 A. I did not understand the question, Your

    21 Honours.

    22 Q. Did you indicate, on any of the documents

    23 between 36 and 45, whether any of those documents have

    24 a file number?

    25 A. No, not here. It only states the date.

  31. 1 Also, there is a space left for the protocol. But the

    2 documents are authentic.

    3 Q. You stated earlier that it was standard

    4 practice to insert a protocol number, didn't you,

    5 Mr. Katava?

    6 A. I said that from my experience as a

    7 policeman, Your Honours, that before it was the

    8 prevailing practice, but this was wartime, and I put a

    9 number on one of these documents because I tried to be

    10 a smart guy, because I've been a policeman for so

    11 long. But the other documents were done by my

    12 colleagues, and they simply didn't do it.

    13 Q. Now, we've established, have we not,

    14 Mr. Katava, that Muslim and Croats needed a permit from

    15 your police station to either enter or exit the town of

    16 Busovaca during curfew hours?

    17 A. Yes, Your Honours.

    18 Q. If the witness could be shown Exhibit

    19 456/12.

    20 Now, while you're waiting for that document,

    21 Mr. Katava, am I right in saying that your police

    22 station in Busovaca answered to the police station in

    23 Travnik? Travnik was the regional police station?

    24 A. No, Your Honours. To the police department

    25 in Travnik. The police department in Travnik, during

  32. 1 the conflict, was removed to Vitez and its headquarters

    2 was in Travnik. So it was called the police department

    3 Travnik, located in Vitez.

    4 Q. Now, you will see --

    5 JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me. Would you repeat

    6 that, please?

    7 MR. CAYLEY:

    8 Q. Now, this is an order from the then

    9 Colonel Blaskic to allow people to return to their

    10 homes, and it's a joint order, you can see, signed by

    11 Colonel Blaskic and signed by Enver Hadzihasanovic. Do

    12 you see, in paragraph 3, that it states that unimpeded

    13 and safe movement be ensured for the whole population

    14 throughout the free territory? The order is dated the

    15 13th of February, 1993. It's a command, it's an order,

    16 and the Travnik police department is on that command.

    17 Now, Mr. Katava, why were you requiring

    18 Muslims to obtain permits to leave and enter Busovaca

    19 if an order had been issued by Hadzihuseinovic and

    20 Colonel Blaskic to allow the free and unimpeded

    21 movement of the population throughout the area of the

    22 Central Bosnian Operative Zone?

    23 A. Your Honour, I can't answer this. I was a

    24 plain policeman. I did not make any decisions. I

    25 simply carried out the duties that were given to me. I

  33. 1 can't really comment on this.

    2 Q. Mr. Katava, did you know, at the time when

    3 you were issuing these permits to Muslims, that they

    4 were supposed to be allowed to move freely throughout

    5 the territory in Busovaca?

    6 A. Well, it was precisely with the intention of

    7 ensuring their free movement that we talked to them and

    8 gave them permits to leave, or to come back or whatever

    9 at their initiative, because they requested us to do

    10 this for them for the purposes of their own security,

    11 and we tried to protect them from mistreatment,

    12 assaults by individuals and criminal groups, et

    13 cetera. So it was the same reason. We did not want to

    14 restrict their freedom of movement, because there could

    15 not be freedom of movement if there were checkpoints.

    16 Civilians had to be cautious. They had to know when

    17 they would move around, when they would cross these

    18 checkpoints, because there was always a danger of them

    19 being wounded. The frontline was nearby. It's a very

    20 small area, too.

    21 Q. So your testimony to the Judges is that by

    22 seeking permission -- by Muslims seeking permission to

    23 exit or enter Busovaca, this was a means of actually

    24 ensuring the free movement of the population throughout

    25 Central Bosnia?

  34. 1 A. Among other things, it was the right way for

    2 a person to go from Busovaca to Zenica safely, because

    3 the frontline was in between. If one crossed the

    4 frontline on his own, one could get killed.

    5 Q. Let's move to section C of these documents.

    6 Now, documents 27 to 31 concern damage to the mosque in

    7 Busovaca in the period from September of 1993 to May of

    8 1994.

    9 Mr. Katava, what was the month of 1993 in

    10 which you first started investigating damage to the

    11 mosque?

    12 A. Your Honours, in document 27, this is an

    13 eyewitness statement, and I immediately started

    14 investigations concerning this matter. The mosque was

    15 looted, and one can see here that it was the

    16 loudspeakers and the rugs, the Hodza were taken away.

    17 We worked on this particular matter, and this is an

    18 eyewitness statement that I had personally written. It

    19 also says that -- that I carried out the investigation

    20 in the presence of the Hodza and the head of the

    21 Islamic community.

    22 Q. And that was first done in September of 1993;

    23 wasn't it?

    24 A. Yes. This happened during -- between the 1st

    25 and 2nd of September, 1993, and I was there. I carried

  35. 1 out the investigation, and I made this file and this

    2 file probably still exists.

    3 Q. Did you investigate damage to the mosque in

    4 February of 1993?

    5 A. I cannot recall and there is not a document

    6 of this nature here.

    7 Q. The Judges in this court have heard testimony

    8 that as early as February of 1993 the mosque in

    9 Busovaca had been damaged. Were you aware of that?

    10 A. No, Your Honours, I was not.

    11 Q. Did you investigate damage to any other

    12 Muslim religious sites, structures or buildings in the

    13 municipality of Busovaca?

    14 A. No. This is the only building belonging to

    15 the Islamic community that was destroyed -- damaged

    16 during the war in Busovaca. Everything else remained

    17 intact. The monuments, everything else. It is only

    18 this building that was damaged during the war, and

    19 there are documents relating to that here too. But the

    20 fact remains that we worked, that we intervened, and

    21 that we took care of it and that we carried out

    22 inspections.

    23 Q. How many police officers were working at the

    24 Busovaca police station in April of 1993?

    25 A. Your Honours, most of the policemen were

  36. 1 engaged in defence, and there were three or four of us

    2 there, regular police officers there. I said this

    3 yesterday. We had various teams for carrying out

    4 investigations on the site. There were some 20 of us

    5 doing all the different duties, whereas the other

    6 policemen were engaged on the frontlines, defence

    7 lines, and they were defending.

    8 MR. CAYLEY: If we can now move to section E

    9 of the file, and I've been advised by Mr. Nobilo that

    10 we'll move into closed session at this time.

    11 Mr. President, if we could have a closed session.

    12 MR. NOBILO: We agree, but I should like to

    13 indicate the time. We had overstepped the one hour

    14 limit.

    15 JUDGE JORDA: But the Judges have consulted

    16 with one another. We consider that these are important

    17 points. We will leave Mr. Cayley the time he needs,

    18 but if you go over the time it won't be counted against

    19 you, Mr. Nobilo. Would you like to take a break?

    20 MR. CAYLEY: I mean, Mr. President, I

    21 understand the point my learned friend is making, and I

    22 will try and move as quickly as possible. I don't

    23 think it's going to take another hour, but it is more

    24 than I originally anticipated. I apologise to the

    25 Court for that. It may now be an appropriate time to

  37. 1 take a break.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We're going to take

    3 a break and then we'll have a closed session for tab E,

    4 and we will respect the rules of balance here, and the

    5 Defence will have an equal amount of time.

    6 --- Recess taken at 3.38 p.m.

    7 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.

    8 JUDGE JORDA: We will resume the hearing

    9 now. Have the accused brought in.

    10 (The accused entered court)

    11 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We can resume now.

    12 I think that there was a request from the Defence for a

    13 closed session. Is that all right with the

    14 Prosecution?

    15 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I just have

    16 actually one question, one or two questions before

    17 that, and then we can move into a closed session.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. All right. Ask

    19 them.

    20 MR. CAYLEY:

    21 Q. Prior to the break, Mr. Katava, we were

    22 speaking of curfew hours. Are you aware of the

    23 individual who set the curfew hours in Busovaca?

    24 A. No, I'm not. I don't know who ordered the

    25 curfew.

  38. 1 MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown

    2 Prosecutor's Exhibit 507?

    3 Q. You will see this is an order dated the 7th

    4 of January, 1993, to HVO Central Bosnian Operative Zone

    5 brigades, HVO municipal authorities, and the Vitez

    6 Regional Military Police, and it's to supplement an

    7 order of the 5th of December and it's an order from

    8 Colonel Blaskic.

    9 Now, paragraph 1 concerns the opening hours

    10 of hotel and catering establishments, and paragraph 2,

    11 if you look at paragraph 2, it states the curfew

    12 hours. Paragraph 2(c): "The curfew hours are, in the

    13 municipalities of Busovaca, Kiseljak, Kresovo, Vares,

    14 Kakanj, and Zenica are from 2300 hours, 11.00 at night,

    15 until 4.00 in the morning.".

    16 A. Yes. We can see that. That is so from this

    17 order.

    18 Q. So when Enisa Merdan was moving through a

    19 checkpoint at 2.00 in the afternoon in March of 1993,

    20 there were no curfew hours in force, were there,

    21 Mr. Katava?

    22 A. You're probably right, Your Honours, but we

    23 had to see who was coming in and going out for security

    24 reasons, and citizens were duty-bound to report to the

    25 police station, and anybody who wished to leave had to

  39. 1 say he was leaving. A citizen coming in to Busovaca in

    2 normal times still is duty-bound to report to the

    3 police station and say that he is residing there, and

    4 in these extraordinary times, this was even more

    5 necessary, the exits and entrances for safety reasons.

    6 So it might not have been a curfew, but we had to know

    7 who was entering Busovaca because this was a time of

    8 war, because spies could have come or the enemy could

    9 have come. So for our own personal safety, we had to

    10 know who was moving around the town, and it is normal

    11 procedure, standard practice, when you move around from

    12 town to town and take up residence, to go to the police

    13 station and tell them of that.

    14 Q. So it was not true what you stated before,

    15 that the reason this woman required a permit was

    16 because she was moving around in curfew hours? That's

    17 not correct, is it? In fact, it was for different

    18 reasons.

    19 A. I'm not quite clear what reasons. The

    20 question isn't clear to me.

    21 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Katava, it is not a

    22 two-edged question, it's a logical question. The

    23 Prosecution counsel is asking how you can explain the

    24 reasons that in document whatever number its number is,

    25 there was a person about whom you said that she had not

  40. 1 obeyed the curfew rules at 2.00 in the afternoon. Now

    2 you are being asked whether you are being consistent

    3 with your initial answer.

    4 A. Yes, Your Honours. Mrs. Enisa Merdan had

    5 come via the checkpoint on foot and she was allowed to

    6 enter the town, and my colleague talked to her and she

    7 said that she had come to Busovaca and had not asked

    8 for any permit to do so, and he questioned her with

    9 regard to the circumstances under which she arrived in

    10 Busovaca, and he noted that Mrs. Enisa Merdan had come

    11 to Busovaca and was at present located in Busovaca,

    12 nothing more than that. And that when passing the

    13 checkpoints, she had no problems from the policemen or

    14 anybody else. They probably knew her, they knew that

    15 she was an inhabitant of Busovaca and so let her pass.

    16 MR. CAYLEY:

    17 Q. Prior to the break, Mr. Katava, you said that

    18 this woman, Enisa Merdan, had entered Busovaca during

    19 curfew hours. Why did you say that?

    20 A. I did not say that in that way. I said that

    21 that is what is written in the note from my colleague,

    22 that she was moving around during curfew. I did not

    23 say that she entered during curfew.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Katava, let's not

    25 [interpretation cut off]. There was no mention of

  41. 1 curfews being there. It's a question of logic, you

    2 see. Either you're changing your explanation, which is

    3 your right. I think it's a question of logic. You've

    4 got to go back to the transcript. Give your version

    5 and then move to another question, and the Judges can

    6 make their own evaluation, but let's not change the

    7 version that you're giving constantly. That's what we

    8 mean.

    9 Yes, Mr. Nobilo?

    10 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I propose that we

    11 place the document in front of Mr. Katava again, the

    12 document on the arrival; and second, Mr. Katava, on the

    13 first occasion and now, always said the same thing. He

    14 said "I think it was a curfew," and that is why my

    15 colleague wrote it down in his notes. He didn't say he

    16 knew it was a curfew. He said that sometimes a curfew

    17 would last for 24 hours and at other times for shorter

    18 periods. So he has, in fact, changed nothing.

    19 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, the --

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Your objection is not accepted,

    21 Mr. Nobilo.

    22 Mr. Cayley, continue asking questions in that

    23 area until the witness gives testimony which is

    24 consistent with what he has said up to this point.

    25 Mr. Katava, you're working with professional

  42. 1 Judges who are listening to what you have to say. Try

    2 to be logical. Let me remind you that the task in

    3 which the right to require a certain coherence on the

    4 part of the witnesses and some witnesses have to recall

    5 that, remind some of the witnesses of that. You can

    6 say what you like, but there must be a degree of logic

    7 in what you're saying.

    8 Mr. Cayley, go ahead. Go ahead in that area.

    9 MR. CAYLEY:

    10 Q. Mr. Katava, previously, prior to the break,

    11 you stated that Enisa Merdan arrived in Busovaca in

    12 March of 1993 during a curfew hour at 2.00 in the

    13 afternoon. Do you recall that?

    14 A. Your Honours, I said that that is what is

    15 written in the official note of my colleague, a

    16 policeman, that Enisa Merdan had arrived at that time,

    17 because that is what is written in the note, in the

    18 document, and I am just conveying what was written in

    19 the note. I was not present when Mrs. Enisa Merdan

    20 came. This was observed by my colleague, the

    21 policeman, in his note.

    22 Q. So now your testimony is that the reason she

    23 needed a permit was because of security reasons rather

    24 than the curfew?

    25 A. Your Honours, I did not say that she needed a

  43. 1 permit to move around. A permit during curfew is

    2 something that the Croats and Muslims need alike, and

    3 Mrs. Enisa Merdan came, and my colleague observed, in

    4 an official note, that she had come, that he had talked

    5 to her regarding the circumstances of her arrival in

    6 Busovaca.

    7 Q. So you're now saying that Mrs. Enisa Merdan

    8 did not, in fact, need a permit to move around either

    9 to or from Busovaca; is that your testimony?

    10 A. You cannot move around during a curfew; then

    11 you need a permit to do so. The individual did not

    12 seek a permit but she came on foot across the

    13 checkpoint and nobody stopped her, and then my

    14 colleague talked to her when she came home.

    15 Q. But, Mr. Katava, this was at 2.00 in the

    16 afternoon. There was no curfew.

    17 A. I did not say that there was a curfew. I

    18 said that in the note written by my colleague, that

    19 that is what was stated.

    20 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, the transcript

    21 will speak for itself on this matter. I'll move on.

    22 If we could have a closed session, please?

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Very well. We'll move into

    24 closed session.

    25 (Closed session)

  44. 1












    13 Pages 15514 to 15521 redacted – in closed session













  1. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 JUDGE JORDA: Public session then.

    7 (Open session)

    8 MR. CAYLEY:

    9 Q. Can you turn to section A of your file,

    10 please, Mr. Katava? Again, I'm going to, first of all,

    11 ask you about a document that you drafted, which is

    12 document 6. Do you see the signature in the bottom

    13 right-hand corner? Is that your signature?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Does this document have a file number?

    16 A. No, it doesn't.

    17 Q. When you signed it, did it have a file

    18 number?

    19 A. I do not recall, but, Your Honours, there

    20 didn't have to be a file number every time. It was a

    21 war situation. It is the contents of this document

    22 that are important. I think that we've been dealing

    23 with this number too much.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: The Judges will decide how much

    25 time should be spent examining a document, Mr. Katava.

  2. 1 This is not the first time that we've run into

    2 numbering problems, Mr. Katava, it's not the first time

    3 that we've had numbering problems in documents, and I

    4 want to say that the Judges will evaluate all of the

    5 materials having to do with the credibility of the

    6 documents.

    7 MR. HAYMAN: Mr. President, I'd like to put

    8 something on the record.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman?

    10 MR. HAYMAN: The allegation that is being

    11 made here by Mr. Cayley, that this witness fabricated

    12 documents and that these documents, one can infer or

    13 suggest they're fabricated because no protocol number

    14 has been filled in to the blank that has been left for

    15 them, we deem very serious, very grave. We will

    16 suspend the Defence case for any evidence they have

    17 that any one of these documents is fictitious. These

    18 documents are full of names, persons who were

    19 interviewed, statements that they gave on certain

    20 dates. If there is one witness they can produce

    21 suggesting that one of these documents is not

    22 authentic, we will suspend the Defence case and allow

    23 the Prosecutor to put that evidence on today, tomorrow,

    24 a week from Monday, whenever. It's very serious --

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman --

  3. 1 MR. HAYMAN: -- and we will give our time, if

    2 the Prosecutor has the evidence to back up the innuendo

    3 that he has been engaging in ad nauseam today.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, I would like to ask

    5 you to calm down, please. I myself, the Presiding

    6 Judge of this Trial Chamber, allowed myself to say two

    7 things to the witness.

    8 First of all, that we were the ones who

    9 decide about the time that we would devote to reviewing

    10 evidence. Let me remind you of that. At the same

    11 time, I explained myself to the witness in order to

    12 give him an explanation of the time that we devote to

    13 examining documents, because it's true, this is not the

    14 first time, as you know, and the witness knows it as

    15 well, that we had a significant problem with

    16 identifying documents, starting with documents which --

    17 for which you gave explanations, and which also had to

    18 do with another incident which was raised with the

    19 Registry about conditions under which certain documents

    20 had been provided to the translation service. That's

    21 what I wanted to say.

    22 As regards the allegations -- let me finish.

    23 Let me speak about the allegations when you say you

    24 would suspend the presentation of your case.

    25 Mr. Hayman, you, of course, are free to adopt whatever

  4. 1 strategy you like. I consider that this incident is

    2 closed, and Mr. Cayley is entitled to ask questions,

    3 and for the time being he has asserted nothing, he's

    4 merely asking questions about numbering. I would like

    5 to express the Judges' concern about having numbered

    6 document. That's what I have to say.

    7 MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, Mr. President. I am

    8 simply noting that in a public forum, to accuse a

    9 police officer of 25 years with fabricating documents

    10 is a serious and grave allegation, and it should not be

    11 allowed to stand in the public arena any longer than is

    12 absolutely necessary.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: There was no allegations about

    14 falsification. Let me remind you of that. That was

    15 not an assertion. The Prosecutor simply said -- but

    16 let me remind you that your own witness, Mr. Hayman,

    17 said, if my memory doesn't fail me, your own witness

    18 said that his colleagues could sometimes forget to put

    19 in the protocol number, but he would never forget

    20 because he was a professional policeman.

    21 Personally, I can understand, as a Judge, I

    22 commit myself here, that I ask myself the very

    23 question, but it's your witness who said it. We can go

    24 back to the transcript. He said, "As a professional

    25 policeman, when I drafted reports I never forgot to put

  5. 1 in a number." Let's not turn things upside down.

    2 Let's close the incident with that.

    3 Mr. Cayley, go ahead, please.

    4 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

    5 Q. Now, Mr. Katava, if you look at documents 6

    6 to 12, you will find that, again, none of these

    7 documents have any file numbers on them at all.

    8 A. Yes, Your Honours, on a few documents there

    9 is a file number and my signature, which is identical.

    10 Let me put it this way: I did put a number on some,

    11 and I got have forgotten in other cases. You can also

    12 see here there is the number and -- the protocol number

    13 I put in myself in some places and in other places it

    14 is not there.

    15 Q. Can you just confirm that on documents 6 to

    16 12 there are no protocol numbers, and also on documents

    17 17 and 18 there are no protocol numbers, they're

    18 missing?

    19 JUDGE JORDA: I didn't understand your

    20 question, Mr. Cayley. Would you repeat it, please?

    21 Perhaps it was interpretive. Could you confirm that

    22 documents 17 and 18 didn't have -- 12 didn't have

    23 numbers. No, I see it here. All right. It's fine.

    24 A. Yes, that is what it says here, but on two of

    25 my documents there is a protocol number. Sometimes I

  6. 1 would put one in and sometimes I wouldn't. It depended

    2 on the situation, Your Honours.

    3 MR. CAYLEY:

    4 Q. Let's now talk about the content of some of

    5 these documents. I don't have time to go through all

    6 of them with you, but document 6 is a case in which you

    7 were directly involved. Do you have document 6 in

    8 front of you?

    9 A. Yes, Your Honours.

    10 Q. Now, I think, in summary, this involved the

    11 assault of a 63-year-old woman, a probable rape of that

    12 same woman, from the comments that you recorded in the

    13 statement, and theft of property from her house. Would

    14 that be an accurate summary of what took place?

    15 A. I personally know this elderly lady, and I

    16 helped her after this incident. She was assaulted, and

    17 you can see from here that she was assaulted and that

    18 she was robbed by criminals.

    19 Q. And I think she identified two men in uniform

    20 as responsible for the incident. If you look, I think

    21 it says on the third line, in fact, in yours it's on

    22 the fourth line, "Two armed men in uniform."

    23 A. Yes, Your Honours. It says that at 00.30

    24 hours, that a grey vehicle came up and the two

    25 uniformed men walked out who were armed. That is what

  7. 1 it says here, because I took a statement from her with

    2 regard to the situation, with a view to the further

    3 investigation that would be carried out.

    4 Q. And did you, in fact, arrest the suspects in

    5 the course of your further investigation?

    6 A. No, no. The perpetrators remained unknown

    7 and the file was sent to the Prosecutor, and the file

    8 remained with an unknown perpetrator. That's the only

    9 thing we could have done. We took care of the lady and

    10 we helped her.

    11 Q. Now, these two individuals were in uniform.

    12 Did you conclude at the time that they might have been

    13 members of the HVO?

    14 A. Well, at that time almost everybody wore a

    15 uniform. Those were probably criminals who had carried

    16 out this robbery and attacked this old woman.

    17 Q. Did you inform anybody in the HVO military

    18 authorities that this incident had taken place?

    19 A. Yes, we did have a co-operation with the

    20 local Military Police, and we informed them about this

    21 event too.

    22 Q. And did they conduct further investigations?

    23 A. Yes, they did conduct further

    24 investigations. That was the agreement. We worked as

    25 well.

  8. 1 Q. And what did they find out, the Military

    2 Police, after their further investigations?

    3 A. I don't know what they found out, Your

    4 Honours.

    5 Q. So you don't know whether they arrested

    6 anybody or charged anybody in respect of this

    7 incident?

    8 A. I don't know. I don't know what the military

    9 policemen undertook, because they are the Military

    10 Police. I'm a civilian policeman.

    11 Q. But the civilian police did not identify any

    12 suspects in connection with this crime that took

    13 place?

    14 A. No, we did not, Your Honours, but we did

    15 record the case and took a statement from the lady,

    16 because it was a criminal act and we wrote a report in

    17 order to disclose -- uncover the perpetrator.

    18 Q. Let's look at document 8, Mr. Katava. Again,

    19 if you're reasonably familiar with this document, I

    20 think. This is a recorded statement in which a

    21 gentleman by the name of Pero Arapovic is identified as

    22 having stolen a tractor from Atif Barucija. Is that

    23 correct, as far as you can recall, from this

    24 statement?

    25 A. Yes, Your Honours. This statement was taken

  9. 1 by my colleague, as he did in many cases. We can see

    2 from it that the individual did steal the tractor from

    3 Atif Barucija. "Atif Barucija." It was not correctly

    4 pronounced.

    5 Q. My apologies for my pronunciation. I think

    6 Mr. Barucija was told, on the 9th of March, 1993, to

    7 come and collect that tractor from the HVO Military

    8 Police who identified it and took it to Busovaca;

    9 wasn't he?

    10 A. Yes, that's right. We can see that the

    11 Military Police went to the house of the individual who

    12 had stolen the tractor, and that they took him to the

    13 Military Police, and they told the other man to come

    14 and fetch his tractor. This was something that was

    15 done by the Military Police.

    16 Q. And then if you read at the end of the report

    17 it states, and this is the individual who made the

    18 statement, Mr. Barucija, states, "The next day I went

    19 to the Military Police and was received by Malenica,

    20 who told me that he had been informed by the

    21 appropriation of my tractor, that the tractor had been

    22 taken away somewhere and would be returned to me as

    23 soon as they found it."

    24 A. Yes, that is what it states, and this was

    25 done by the military policemen. I think that they

  10. 1 returned the tractor in actual fact.

    2 Q. When did they return the tractor?

    3 A. I think they returned the tractor at that

    4 time, that the tractor was returned, because they knew

    5 who stole it and disciplinary action was taken against

    6 this individual. And I can't meddle into the affairs

    7 of the Military Police. This is the statement that was

    8 given by the individual when he contacted him, and he

    9 was told to wait, and as soon as the tractor turned up

    10 the tractor would be returned to him.

    11 Q. Mr. Katava, the statement says very clearly

    12 that the Military Police had appropriated the tractor

    13 for their own use; doesn't it?

    14 A. Your Honours, I cannot comment on the conduct

    15 of the Military Police in this case. I don't know that

    16 they confiscated it. I don't have any information on

    17 that.

    18 Q. Was it normal procedure for the HVO Military

    19 Police to retain stolen property?

    20 A. No, Your Honours. Normal procedure, in my

    21 opinion, is for something that has been stolen to be

    22 taken away and then to be returned to the rightful

    23 owner, and to take steps against the perpetrator, the

    24 person who had stolen it in the first place.

    25 Q. Now, you stated that Mr. Pero Arapovic, the

  11. 1 original thief, was charged and prosecuted. What was

    2 the punishment that he received?

    3 A. I said that disciplinary measures were taken

    4 against him by the Military Police. We did not work

    5 with Pero Arapovic. And I said that it is written here

    6 they identified Pero Arpovic as the thief of the

    7 tractor, and that they took the tractor away from him.

    8 That is to say, the Military Police took the tractor

    9 away from him because he had stolen it, and it would be

    10 normal, in my opinion, to return the tractor with a

    11 receipt.

    12 Q. What disciplinary action was taken against

    13 Mr. Arapovic for this theft?

    14 A. I don't know what disciplinary action was

    15 taken by the Military Police and the military

    16 policemen.

    17 Q. Let's move on to document 13. Now, this is

    18 an offence of robbery, and you will see from the

    19 official note which was compiled by you that an

    20 individual by the name of Oreskic, a member of the HVO,

    21 was identified as being involved in this offence. Do

    22 you see that?

    23 A. Yes, I can see this. The document was one

    24 that I compiled. This individual is a displaced person

    25 from Kotor Varos, and we identified him as the thief.

  12. 1 Q. I think I'm right in saying that you informed

    2 the HVO Military Police about this incident, and that,

    3 I think, is document 15.

    4 A. Yes, Your Honours, that is the document by

    5 which we informed the Military Police that the

    6 individual in question had carried out a theft in the

    7 house of a Muslim Sevala Beslic and Seval Siljak.

    8 Q. Did you interview Oreskic?

    9 A. We only identified the perpetrator and handed

    10 the whole case over, the Oreskic case, to the Military

    11 Police, because we did not have the right to charge

    12 members of the HVO. This young man was a member of the

    13 HVO and he had carried out a robbery, and so it was up

    14 to the Military Police to take the matter further, but

    15 we identified the perpetrator of the robbery, and it

    16 was our duty to inform the Military Police to take the

    17 man over. I don't know what happened after that.

    18 Q. This was a serious case, Mr. Katava. Didn't

    19 you follow up on what the HVO Military Police did about

    20 this incident?

    21 A. I have already told you we identified the

    22 perpetrator and handed over our report to the Military

    23 Police as to who did it, and that is where our work

    24 stopped. Our competency ceased there. It was our duty

    25 to identify the robber and then to inform the competent

  13. 1 institutions which would then take over the case, and I

    2 think that this document -- with this document we

    3 completed our duty.

    4 Q. Did you ever follow-up on any cases in which

    5 you'd been involved to see whether people were charged

    6 or tried by a court, or given a punishment or a

    7 sentence? Did you ever follow-up on any of the cases

    8 in which you were involved?

    9 A. Your Honours, other people deal with analysis

    10 and analytics. I'm an operative man, I'm a policeman

    11 working in the field, and at that time I tried to

    12 discover who the perpetrators were, to identify the

    13 criminals.

    14 JUDGE JORDA: So the witness is being

    15 consistent, Mr. Cayley. He worked in civilian police

    16 matters, and he simply transmitted things to other

    17 authorities. Move to another question, please.

    18 MR. CAYLEY:

    19 Q. Can we look at document number 16, please,

    20 Mr. Katava? I think this is another case in which you

    21 were involved. Again, this is an illegal entry into a

    22 house and an assault on a female Muslim by the name of

    23 Sevala Beslic, and the individual involved was

    24 identified as Mr. Vinko Puljic, a member of the HVO

    25 Military Police.

  14. 1 A. Yes, Your Honours. At the end I make this

    2 observation, and I complied this note, and by operative

    3 means the officers arrived at information that these

    4 individuals used passenger vehicles of a cream colour,

    5 and that one of these individuals, Vinko Puljic, was a

    6 member of the Military Police.

    7 So once again, by operational means, we

    8 arrived at these facts and Vinko Puljic could have been

    9 one of the perpetrators of this crime, and we also

    10 informed the Military Police thereof. But as I say, we

    11 were operative officers working in the field.

    12 Q. And so, again, you have no idea what the HVO

    13 authorities did about this incident?

    14 A. I only said that cases of this kind we handed

    15 on further to the Military Police, because the Military

    16 Police is in charge of its members. But we did name

    17 and identify the individual who could have been the

    18 perpetrator of this particular crime.

    19 Q. So, Mr. Katava, it would be fair to say, in

    20 respect of documents 1 to 18, you have no knowledge

    21 about whether or not any further action was ever taken

    22 against any of the persons that were identified as

    23 potential perpetrators of criminal offences?

    24 A. Your Honours, it is logical to my mind that

    25 if somebody is charged and that -- I think that the

  15. 1 institutions of the Military Police probably did take

    2 disciplinary measures. Now, what the Prosecutor did

    3 after that, I don't know.

    4 Q. Do you have any personal knowledge about

    5 whether disciplinary measures were ever taken against

    6 any of these individuals?

    7 A. I know that measures were undertaken and that

    8 their names were given to the Prosecutor. Now, what

    9 happened after that and what measures were taken, I

    10 don't know. But we identified the perpetrators, that

    11 is what I can tell you.

    12 Q. Can you take one of these documents from 1 to

    13 18 and demonstrate to the Judges a case which you know

    14 was passed on to the Prosecutor's office? There's 18

    15 documents here, there's 18 investigations. Can you

    16 pull out one which was passed on to the Prosecutor's

    17 office?

    18 A. Your Honours, document number 7, against

    19 unknown perpetrator, sent on to the Prosecutor's

    20 office, to Travnik. This is a criminal report that we

    21 compiled.

    22 Q. And what happened after it got to the

    23 Prosecutor's office, Mr. Katava?

    24 A. The Prosecutor probably launched an

    25 investigation, but I don't know how the Prosecutor's

  16. 1 office works, but I suppose that he opens up an

    2 investigation on the basis of the report and documents

    3 that are sent in to him.

    4 Q. But you have no personal knowledge whether in

    5 that particular case a further investigation was

    6 launched by the Prosecutor or anybody was ever

    7 charged?

    8 A. I did not deal with matters of that kind. As

    9 a policeman, it was my job to identify the

    10 perpetrators, and all I could do was to compile a

    11 report and then send that report on further.

    12 Q. Let's look at document 32, Mr. Katava, which

    13 is, I think, the section headed "Crimes By Muslims."

    14 Now -- sorry, what is that piece of paper

    15 that you have in front of you, Mr. Katava?

    16 A. I got, from my lawyer, where I can find what

    17 document, and as I can't find it, perhaps you can tell

    18 me where to find it.

    19 Q. That's in tab D, document 32. Now, you would

    20 agree with me that this was an official note made after

    21 the conflict between the Muslims and the Croats in

    22 Busovaca, and it states that a Muslim male had a gun

    23 for which he had a licence, and a number of other

    24 items. Have you read this statement?

    25 A. Just one moment, please. Yes, Your Honours,

  17. 1 I've read it.

    2 Q. Now, this, to me, looks more like a security

    3 investigation rather than a criminal investigation.

    4 This is a security investigation, isn't it, this is not

    5 a criminal investigation? This man is being

    6 investigated for having a gun for which he had a

    7 licence.

    8 MR. HAYMAN: That's three questions,

    9 Mr. President.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: Yes. Try to focus your

    11 questions better, Mr. Cayley.

    12 MR. CAYLEY:

    13 Q. Mr. Katava, what criminal offence had this

    14 individual committed?

    15 A. Your Honours, this was an official note made

    16 by my colleague the policeman, and from it we can see

    17 this individual, Hajdarevic, and probably on the basis

    18 of his operative knowledge, had a radio station at home

    19 by which he communicated. And I agree there are

    20 elements of security here. I agree with the

    21 Prosecutor. He had explosives, he had rifles, and he

    22 brought other citizens' lives into danger, and his own

    23 life as well.

    24 So in addition to giving up his rifle to the

    25 police station, he had explosive devices at home, a

  18. 1 radio station and a large amount of explosives.

    2 Q. Is it a criminal offence in Bosnia to possess

    3 a gas mask?

    4 A. It's not a criminal offence to have a gas

    5 mask, Your Honours, but it is a criminal offence to

    6 have a large quantity of explosives, a radio station

    7 and so on and so forth. So these are military matters.

    8 Q. It is a criminal offence under the Bosnian

    9 Criminal Code to possess a radio?

    10 A. No. No, Your Honours, not a radio, but this

    11 was a radio station, a military radio station for

    12 military purposes, transmitter.

    13 Q. It's a military security report, isn't it,

    14 Mr. Katava?

    15 A. This is an official note written by my

    16 colleague, a policeman, who confiscated the explosive

    17 and the radio transmitter.

    18 Q. Do you have any other official notes of

    19 criminal offences committed by Muslims?

    20 A. Possibly they exist, but I cannot see them

    21 here. I just see this one document.

    22 Q. And how was this particular document

    23 selected, this single document?

    24 A. Because this gentleman was in Busovaca, he

    25 resided in Busovaca, and for security reasons, we got

  19. 1 information that he had a radio transmitter and

    2 explosives and other military items, and that is why my

    3 colleague proceeded in this manner, whereas criminal

    4 offences by Muslims were perpetrated in the areas under

    5 Muslim control. This individual was in Busovaca.

    6 Q. There were no Muslims left, were there, in

    7 Busovaca, to commit criminal offences after April of

    8 1993, Mr. Katava?

    9 A. There were Muslims, but there were not

    10 Muslims who committed crimes at that time. I agree

    11 with you there. And this particular individual had

    12 military equipment and materiel in wartime, and that is

    13 why they were confiscated from him. There were Muslims

    14 in Busovaca, but they did not perpetrate crimes. There

    15 were also Muslims in the territory of Kacuni who

    16 carried out crimes there, but we were not able to

    17 investigate because this was Muslim territory.

    18 Q. Now, can you turn to tab B, and that's

    19 documents 19 to 26?

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley, we're going to take

    21 a short break. The afternoon has been long.

    22 Where are you in your cross-examination?

    23 MR. CAYLEY: Almost finished, Mr. President.

    24 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We'll take about a

    25 15-minute break and then you'll try to complete your

  20. 1 cross-examination as quickly as possible.

    2 --- Recess taken at 5.13 p.m.

    3 --- On resuming at 5.25 p.m.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Resume the hearing now. Have

    5 the accused brought in so that we can resume.

    6 (The accused entered court)

    7 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley?

    8 MR. CAYLEY: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: We are going to work until a

    10 quarter after six this evening.

    11 MR. CAYLEY: I am, in fact, finished my

    12 cross-examination. I would like to apply for admission

    13 into evidence Exhibits 550 and 551 and also reserve our

    14 right to recall the witness and cross-examine him on

    15 documents 52 to 85 -- 52 to 95, correction, which is

    16 tab H when they have been translated into English.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Any comments about

    18 the exhibits, Mr. Hayman?

    19 MR. HAYMAN: No objection to the two

    20 exhibits. We do not acquiesce in the Prosecutor's

    21 right to recall the witness for any purpose. We note

    22 our lack of acquiescence in that regard.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: Okay. Your lack of agreement

    24 has been noted. It is better to be cautious before one

    25 moves ahead.

  21. 1 Do you want to redirect now, Mr. Hayman?

    2 Mr. Nobilo?

    3 MR. NOBILO: I would just like to support

    4 what my colleague, Mr. Hayman, said. The documents

    5 that were not translated, we give them as a deposition

    6 to the Court, just as the Prosecutor gave us many more

    7 documents and we could not cross-examine their

    8 witnesses, and I see no reason why the Prosecutor would

    9 have to cross-examine our witness on this. But I am

    10 prepared to continue with my rejoinder.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: For the time being, I think

    12 that the Judges -- well, we had said that we could give

    13 Mr. -- we would give Mr. Cayley the right to call the

    14 witness back because we don't know what is in the

    15 documents and it depends on what is in them. That's

    16 all we can say right now other than saying to

    17 Mr. Cayley that, if necessary, possibly we might

    18 authorise the witness being called back.

    19 Would you like to add something, Mr. Cayley?

    20 MR. CAYLEY: I have nothing to add,

    21 Mr. President, to what you have stated.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, proceed, please.

    23 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.

    24 Re-examined by Mr. Nobilo:

    25 Q. Mr. Katava, we talked about registration

  22. 1 numbers for about half an hour. Could you please

    2 explain to the Court what the technical procedure was

    3 with all these numbers? Who kept the records of these

    4 file numbers, protocol numbers: you policemen or

    5 someone else?

    6 A. No, Your Honours, there was an administrative

    7 secretary that kept the records on these protocol

    8 numbers. We policemen did not do that.

    9 Q. When you police officers wanted to write an

    10 official note and when you wanted a protocol number to

    11 be entered immediately, what would you have to do?

    12 A. We would have to go to the administrative

    13 secretary so that she would give it a protocol number.

    14 Q. You mean tell you the number that is next in

    15 line; right?

    16 A. Yes, she would tell us and we would put that

    17 number.

    18 Q. And this administrative secretary, who was

    19 not a police officer, what were her working hours?

    20 A. She only worked in the morning, from 8.00

    21 until 3.00 or 4.00 p.m.

    22 Q. And you police officers, did you work only

    23 for eight hours in the morning, from 8.00 until 3.00

    24 p.m.?

    25 A. No, we worked in shifts. The first shift,

  23. 1 the second shift, and the night shift; that is to say,

    2 that we covered the terrain for 24 hours.

    3 Q. When you worked during the night or in the

    4 afternoon and when you wrote an official note, where

    5 was the administrative secretary? Did you go to her

    6 home so that she would open her office and give you a

    7 number?

    8 A. No. Then it remained without a protocol

    9 number. We could not call her at home; we just wrote

    10 our official note and we asked for it to be submitted

    11 to our superior officers.

    12 Q. When was the protocol number entered then?

    13 A. When the administrative secretary would come

    14 in.

    15 Q. Was this often done in handwriting?

    16 A. Yes, it was often done in handwriting.

    17 Q. If it is handwritten, instead of a protocol

    18 number, what is usually entered? For example, if, the

    19 next day, the protocol number is supposed to be

    20 handwritten, subsequently what is done?

    21 A. There is an empty space that is left so that

    22 this number can be entered in handwriting.

    23 Q. Was this ever a problem at the police station

    24 in Busovaca?

    25 A. No, we didn't see this as a problem. That is

  24. 1 the way we worked.

    2 Q. I shall start from the end. You found an

    3 explosive in the house of a Muslim.

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Tell me, was that a great problem for you,

    6 placing explosives in shops?

    7 A. Yes, that was a major problem for us.

    8 Q. Did you take explosives away from all

    9 citizens?

    10 A. Yes, we did, irrespective of who the citizen

    11 was. We took these arms and explosives from everyone

    12 who had them illegally in their possession.

    13 MR. NOBILO: I would like to have a document

    14 distributed now, please.

    15 THE REGISTRAR: This is D448 and D449.

    16 MR. NOBILO: Why two? There is only one.

    17 THE REGISTRAR: All right. D448.

    18 MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, the green colour

    19 denotes Croatian villages that were destroyed, burnt

    20 down, just as the Prosecutor did yesterday with D448

    21 (sic). So green or yellow shows an imitation of

    22 Prosecutor's Exhibit 551, sorry.

    23 Q. So, Mr. Katava, when we looked at

    24 Prosecutor's Exhibit 551, is it true that you drew this

    25 thick line?

  25. 1 A. Yes, that is correct.

    2 Q. And what does this line show?

    3 A. This line is the frontline.

    4 Q. The frontline; right?

    5 A. Yes, the frontline.

    6 Q. Jelinak and Putis and Strane and Loncari,

    7 there is a double line; what does that mean?

    8 A. That means that at first it was at Jelinak

    9 and Putis and then it fell underneath Loncari.

    10 Q. Can one see exactly which villages were on

    11 the frontline and which were in the rear?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 MR. NOBILO: Thank you. May I please have

    14 another document distributed? There is an original and

    15 a copy. Maybe the original we can put on the ELMO.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: Document D449.

    17 MR. NOBILO:

    18 Q. Mr. Katava, on the right-hand side, there is

    19 F52, F53, and F54 on page 1. Photograph F51, does it

    20 show Fadil Sahman's house?

    21 A. I'm sorry, I haven't got that. I haven't got

    22 that photocopy. Sorry.

    23 Q. But you should have F52.

    24 A. I don't. Oh, this side. Sorry, yes.

    25 Q. All right. Take a look at the house in the

  26. 1 middle. Is Fadil Sahman the owner of that house?

    2 A. Yes, this is Fadil Sahman's house at the

    3 Kaonik crossroads.

    4 Q. Is this house intact?

    5 A. Yes, it is.

    6 Q. And what about F53? Are these the premises

    7 of Merhamet?

    8 A. Yes, these are the premises of Merhamet and

    9 two offices next to them, Novalic Fevzija are the

    10 owners, and there was a butcher shop there too.

    11 Q. The third or, rather, F54, is that Dado

    12 Merdan's house, a Muslim?

    13 A. Yes, that is the house of Dado Merdan.

    14 Q. Now please look at the other page, F55. Can

    15 you see that?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Is this the house of the Dizdarevic family?

    18 A. Yes, this is the house of the Dizdarevic

    19 family.

    20 Q. From different angles?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And tell me, F58, is that Edin Novalic's

    23 house, F58?

    24 A. Yes, this is Novalic's house. It was still

    25 under construction.

  27. 1 Q. F59, are these the houses of Fadil Dizdarevic

    2 and Dervis Sarajlic?

    3 A. Yes, Your Honours.

    4 Q. House F60, do you know whose house that is?

    5 A. Yes. Enes Hodzic's house.

    6 Q. F61, is that the house of Emin Saracevic?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. And what about F62, is that Omer Malkic's

    9 house?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And whose house is F63; do you know?

    12 A. That is the family home of Fevzija Novalic.

    13 Q. That is to say of the Novalic family; right?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. Among these houses, are there houses that

    16 were damaged in January before the conflict broke out,

    17 the night between the 20th and the 21st?

    18 A. Yes, some of them were mentioned.

    19 Q. Tell me, eight houses are one next to

    20 another, and in order to have them drilled with bullets

    21 and to have two grenades thrown at them, in your

    22 opinion, how many people have to do this and within

    23 what period of time?

    24 A. Well, two criminals can do that in two

    25 minutes in the area of Busovaca because this is a very

  28. 1 small area.

    2 Q. And if the UNPROFOR report says that this was

    3 an organised and coordinated attack, do you agree with

    4 this kind of a qualification?

    5 A. No, Your Honours, I do not agree with that

    6 qualification.

    7 Q. Yesterday the Prosecutor asked you about your

    8 passport. Tell me, a Croat from Australia and New

    9 Zealand, can this Croat have a Croatian passport only

    10 because he is a Croat?

    11 A. Yes, I think that every Croat can have a

    12 Croatian passport.

    13 Q. I shall read a document to you, F36. F36,

    14 would you please open that section? This is the

    15 statement of Fikret Zulum. Have you found this?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. And now I am reading the fifth and the fourth

    18 section but from the bottom of the page upwards:

    19 "Before the conflict broke out in Busovaca, I was

    20 panic-stricken like the rest of the Muslim population

    21 because of various rumours that were spreading around

    22 my neighbourhood, and these were the following: That

    23 there would be an attack on Busovaca from Kacuni, and

    24 that the attack would be carried out by the people from

    25 Krajina with some of Dajic's (phoen) units, and the

  29. 1 exact date of the attack was not mentioned. Because of

    2 these rumours and because of the tense situation in

    3 Busovaca, my wife and children went to Kacuni, that is

    4 to say, two days prior to the conflict, and I stayed at

    5 home where I surrendered the weapons I had."

    6 I read this to you so I could put the

    7 following question to you: Is this a typical statement

    8 which describes the situation that prevailed in January

    9 in Busovaca prior to the conflict? Was this typical?

    10 Was this typical thinking among the Muslims and the

    11 Croats at that time?

    12 A. Yes, this was typical thinking before the

    13 conflict.

    14 Q. And when you say that 80 per cent of the

    15 Muslims left before Busovaca, before the conflict broke

    16 out in Busovaca -- 80 per cent, I can't remember

    17 exactly what you said, but anyway, it was a large

    18 majority -- were they motivated by the same thing that

    19 Fikret Zulum was motivated by?

    20 A. Yes, that is what I said, precisely with that

    21 motive in mind. The women and the children left.

    22 Q. Now we're going to say a few words about the

    23 documents that were written in order to exit and enter

    24 Busovaca. Tell me, in peacetime, nowadays, or in 1989,

    25 can you go to Busovaca and then move to Zenica just

  30. 1 like that, or do you have to go through a certain

    2 procedure? If so, where?

    3 A. Well, I have to de-register with one police

    4 station and I have to register with the police station

    5 in the municipality that I'm moving into.

    6 Q. Tell me, as a citizen, were you interested in

    7 knowing who was coming and who was leaving from the

    8 area of Busovaca?

    9 A. Well, yes. At that time, we were interested.

    10 Q. Tell the Court, why did you talk to Muslims

    11 who wanted to leave Busovaca? What was the point of

    12 this procedure?

    13 A. The point was the following: We wanted to

    14 ascertain what the reason was, why they wanted to

    15 leave, whether these people were being mistreated in

    16 order to protect them. If somebody had mistreated

    17 these people, then we'd try to help resolve this

    18 problem so that this man would not have to leave for

    19 that reason. We would resolve this problem and then

    20 this person would not have to leave. It is for those

    21 reasons.

    22 Q. And were there mistreatments?

    23 A. Well, there were individual cases.

    24 Q. And tell me, then, as a police force, some

    25 kind of authority, did you want the Muslims to leave or

  31. 1 in that way did you prevent them from leaving?

    2 A. No, we didn't want them to leave. Their

    3 homes were there. We wanted to stop the situation. We

    4 didn't want them to be expelled from there, but then if

    5 they wanted to leave of their own free will, we could

    6 not stop that.

    7 Q. And if someone had insisted to leave, did you

    8 ever forbid that to anyone, whoever who wanted to leave

    9 Busovaca?

    10 A. No, we didn't, never.

    11 Q. Tell me, when Croats came to Busovaca, could

    12 they get in just like that or did you talk to them too?

    13 A. No. They had to register with the police

    14 station in Busovaca so that we would see for what

    15 reason they came.

    16 Q. Let us look into an area that the Prosecutor

    17 completely skipped in his cross-examination. That is

    18 section G. Would you please have a look at that?

    19 First of all, in general terms, does this

    20 file contain statements of Croats who were also fleeing

    21 from Zenica and arriving in Busovaca?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Did they also have to go through a certain

    24 police procedure and make statements?

    25 A. Yes.

  32. 1 Q. I shall read one, so could you please tell me

    2 whether this is a typical statement, whether these were

    3 typical motives? G-46, Svjetlana Zrnic says: "As the

    4 conflict broke out between the HVO and the BH army in

    5 Zenica, trouble started for civilians of Croat

    6 ethnicity. The soldiers of MOS started coming into

    7 houses and apartments, searching them and looking for

    8 military-aged men whom they took into custody or

    9 mobilised, taking them to the frontline against the

    10 Croats. My brother often would often run away and hide

    11 in Podulice because several times they came to collect

    12 him. As the situation became unbearable, my entire

    13 family, except for me, on the 5th of June, 1993, fled

    14 to Busovaca."

    15 So I don't have to read the whole thing now,

    16 and I don't have to read about all her troubles, but

    17 tell me, is this one of the typical statements made by

    18 Croats who were fleeing Zenica coming to Busovaca?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And why did you talk to them? What was the

    21 motive for those interviews?

    22 A. We conducted these interviews because we

    23 wanted to see who was coming, and with what intentions

    24 in mind.

    25 Q. And now please tell the Judges, was there any

  33. 1 discrimination in terms of coming into Zenica or

    2 leaving Zenica in terms of Croats?

    3 A. No, there was no discrimination and I already

    4 told you that.

    5 Q. Mention was made today of curfew hours as

    6 well. Please tell the Court once again, briefly, why

    7 was the curfew imposed, and was it relevant only to

    8 Muslims or to all citizens of Busovaca?

    9 A. The curfew was imposed in order to reduce the

    10 crime rate, because the crime rate was very high. And

    11 the curfew equally applied to all citizens irrespective

    12 of ethnicity.

    13 Q. Did curfew hours change depending on the

    14 intensity of the danger in which you lived, or was it

    15 the same throughout the war?

    16 A. It did change.

    17 Q. Could you tell us a few typical curfew

    18 hours? Give us two or three typical curfew hours in

    19 your town.

    20 A. Typical hours were from 6.00 p.m. until 7.00

    21 a.m. Sometimes round the clock, 24 hours. The longest

    22 curfew hours were during the night.

    23 Q. Thank you. Just a minute. According to one

    24 statement, one official note, this is number 45, this

    25 is F-45, please take a look at that. It was referred

  34. 1 to quite a bit. F-45.

    2 You spoke about this official note two or

    3 three times, and let it remain in the transcript so it

    4 can be analysed subsequently.

    5 Why did you conclude that Enisa Merdan came

    6 during curfew hours? Did you come to this conclusion

    7 on the basis your own memory or on the basis of

    8 something else?

    9 A. On the basis of this official note made by my

    10 colleague, because it says here, "Because of the curfew

    11 imposed and restricted movement." That is why I

    12 realised this.

    13 Q. So you personally do not recollect why Enisa

    14 Merdan came, et cetera?

    15 A. No. I just said that I personally knew her.

    16 Q. But about these events, you only know what

    17 this official note says; is that correct?

    18 A. Yes, that is correct.

    19 Q. And when you read this, "Because the curfew

    20 hours and the restriction of movement, the above named

    21 asked several times to return to Busovaca." So what do

    22 you conclude on that basis?

    23 A. Now I see this is a technical error. The

    24 person who wrote this probably did not express himself

    25 properly. She probably wanted to come back to

  35. 1 Busovaca, but she could not because there was a

    2 curfew. She heard that there was a curfew, and that is

    3 why she didn't come to Busovaca. However, then she

    4 came on her own and the curfew had already started.

    5 Q. So you did not have your own recollections,

    6 you're simply reading this official note; is that

    7 correct?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 MR. NOBILO: Thank you. Please, can we move

    10 into a private session now, just for a minute, please?

    11 (Private session)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

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    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (Open session)

    16 MR. NOBILO:

    17 Q. When you send in -- file a criminal charge

    18 against an unknown person with the Prosecutor, does

    19 that mean that you have done your duty in this case, or

    20 is the case still open for you and you have to continue

    21 working on the case? What is your legal -- what are

    22 your legal obligations?

    23 A. The case remains open and we have a

    24 continuous investigation, and it was our duty to

    25 continue investigating this unknown perpetrator.

  39. 1 Q. And when does this obligation cease?

    2 A. When the Statute of Limitations is in force,

    3 or until we find the perpetrator.

    4 Q. Tell us, the Office of the Prosecutor, at

    5 this time, it was the military court in question.

    6 Under what Ministry does it come, do you know?

    7 A. I do not know, but I know that it was in the

    8 territory of Vitez.

    9 Q. But organisationally speaking, it's

    10 organisational structure, you're not acquainted with

    11 that?

    12 A. No, I'm not.

    13 Q. Let us now move on to document A-6, and that

    14 is Serifa Sarajlic's note on statement.

    15 I am going to read out the third passage from

    16 the top from document A-6, and the statement by Serifa

    17 Sarajlic: "I hereby state that I cannot recognise

    18 them," he means the perpetrators of the criminal act,

    19 "Because they had masks on their faces."

    20 Did this person give you any clue whereby you

    21 could identify the individuals who wore masks?

    22 A. Nothing other than what is written in this

    23 statement.

    24 Q. And is that the reason why you were not able

    25 to identify the perpetrator?

  40. 1 A. Yes, it was.

    2 Q. Tell me, please, you do not recall, and you

    3 told the Prosecutor that you did not follow up what the

    4 Military Police did with the individuals that you

    5 identified?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. You don't know the names. But what is your

    8 general opinion on the basis of your experience? Was

    9 your work in vain when you furnished the Military

    10 Police with records of these cases, or was it your

    11 experience that criminals ended up in prison?

    12 A. I think the criminals ended up in prison.

    13 Q. Do you remember any case in which you

    14 arrested an individual, handed him over to the Military

    15 Police and the Military Police set him free?

    16 A. No.

    17 MR. NOBILO: May I just look through my notes

    18 for a second?

    19 JUDGE JORDA: I think we're going to stop

    20 now. The registrar spoke about some changes. Go

    21 ahead, Mr. Hayman.

    22 MR. HAYMAN: We have had some logistical

    23 difficulties in the last 24 hours, Mr. President and

    24 Your Honours. We had a witness slated to testify

    25 tomorrow and with a large number of documents, and only

  41. 1 a small portion of them have been translated. We do

    2 not think it's wise to put the Court and our learned

    3 friends across the bar through an attempted examination

    4 of that witness with a large number of untranslated

    5 documents, so we have put that witness to the side for

    6 tomorrow.

    7 The next witness, his flight was cancelled

    8 this morning from the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    9 and is still, as far as we know, en route here but is

    10 not here yet. So our request would be to go for half a

    11 day tomorrow. We can finish this witness. We have a

    12 very short witness who will testify, with facial

    13 distortion and a pseudonym, and will be very short. We

    14 would ask to do -- take care of those two items of

    15 business in the morning, if it suits Your Honours, and

    16 then break for the day, gather our wits, if you will,

    17 and then continue on Friday morning.

    18 JUDGE JORDA: Any objections? Will three

    19 hours tomorrow morning be enough in order for you to

    20 complete your redirect? I'm sure that myself and my

    21 colleagues will want to ask the witness some questions,

    22 and then you'll have the witness with the

    23 cross-examination and the Judges questioning. Are you

    24 sure that three hours is enough so that we can finish

    25 tomorrow morning and have tomorrow afternoon off? Are

  42. 1 you sure that's enough time? Sometimes you speak --

    2 the direct is for 20 minutes and then you have

    3 cross-examination for 3 hours.

    4 MR. NOBILO: Yes. Of course, everything is

    5 possible. We're going to ask this witness very -- ask

    6 questions of this witness very briefly. Our next

    7 witness will also have a brief examination-in-chief,

    8 but if we follow the procedure hitherto it might last

    9 for three days, but we're going to stick to 45

    10 minutes.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: That has a 300 document file.

    12 You can be sure that the cross-examination is going to

    13 be long, but since this witness doesn't have documents

    14 with him, I'm sure it will be short.

    15 All right. Mr. Hayman, Mr. Nobilo, the

    16 Judges are trying to facilitate both party's tasks,

    17 therefore, we will take the possibility of working

    18 tomorrow morning only. We could start earlier, I

    19 suppose, but if you think you can finish in three hours

    20 then we can meet at 10.00 tomorrow and be finished at

    21 1.00, and then in the afternoon each of us will have

    22 things to do, and then we can meet again on Friday

    23 morning as we ordinarily do, 9.45 to 1.30.

    24 All right. Court stands adjourned for the

    25 evening.

  43. 1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

    2 at 6.17 p.m., to be reconvened on

    3 Thursday, the 26th day of November,

    4 1998 at 10.00 a.m.