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  1. 1 Thursday, 10th December, 1998

    2 (Closed session)

    3 --- Upon commencing at 10.10 a.m.

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  1. 1 (Open session)

    2 JUDGE JORDA: Do you hear me? First of all,

    3 we would like to thank you for having come. We're

    4 going to ask you to rise, but you are being covered by

    5 protective measures; therefore, you're going to stand

    6 but just for a very short time, just as long as it

    7 takes to identify your name. We hope there are no

    8 mistakes in the spelling of your name. First identify

    9 yourself but don't say your name. That is, in fact,

    10 your name.

    11 Now you're going to take an oath, according

    12 to a statement which is going to be read to you and

    13 which you are going to repeat. Please repeat after the

    14 registrar.

    15 Read it slowly, please.

    16 THE REGISTRAR: If you would please repeat

    17 after me: I solemnly declare.

    18 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare.

    19 THE REGISTRAR: That I will speak the truth.

    20 THE WITNESS: That I will speak the truth.

    21 THE REGISTRAR: The whole truth.

    22 THE WITNESS: The whole truth.

    23 THE REGISTRAR: And nothing but the truth.

    24 THE WITNESS: And nothing but the truth.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, Witness DQ, that is



  2. 1 what we're going to call you, please be seated. This

    2 is a public session, but there are many things that

    3 should not be in public. Defence counsel or the

    4 Prosecution will ask us to ensure that those details

    5 are not revealed. You have nothing to fear. You are

    6 in front of Judges. You have agreed to come, and we

    7 thank you for having done so.

    8 You are now going to testify. First you will

    9 answer the Defence counsel's questions, that is, the

    10 counsel for General Blaskic who is in this courtroom.

    11 You can speak in a very relaxed fashion. Do not be

    12 afraid. If you are tired, if you have any problems,

    13 please do not hesitate to tell us and we will take a

    14 break.

    15 All right, Mr. Nobilo, you may proceed.

    16 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, excuse me,

    17 unfortunately, it's a repetition of what happened

    18 yesterday, so if we could go into closed session for a

    19 moment.

    20 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We'll go into a

    21 private session, a private session for a few moments in

    22 order to settle the complicated issues that arise

    23 before this Tribunal, which seem to be like no other

    24 issues.

    25 Let me say this for the public which is here



  3. 1 in great numbers today. I would like to say good

    2 morning to the public as well and to remind the public

    3 that these are always open sessions, unless there are

    4 secrets which have to be kept from the public, but I

    5 consider it very important that the hearings be open as

    6 much as possible.

    7 (Private session)

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    11 (Open session)

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Then we will go back into a

    13 private session.

    14 But I would like to explain things. We must

    15 render clear and transparent justice for the public,

    16 and I would like things to be clear in respect of those

    17 who are listening to us and to the greater public, for

    18 example, on the internet.

    19 We are sitting pursuant to a Rule in our

    20 Rules of Procedure and Evidence which allows us to sit

    21 as presiding officers, that is, we remain Judges, but

    22 in order to make up for any problems that are caused by

    23 the sudden illness of one of our colleagues who is not

    24 here today, in agreement with the Defence and the

    25 Prosecution and, of course, with the accused, we could



  8. 1 continue to hear the depositions as if they were being

    2 presented before presiding officers, and then the

    3 absent Judge will be informed of everything that was

    4 said, and if necessary, the witness can be asked to

    5 come back so that further questions can be asked.

    6 That's an explanation which explains why we

    7 can continue to sit and an explanation which explains

    8 why we are not in our robes today.

    9 Second point: The Tribunal has difficulty in

    10 collecting evidence, and those of you who have been

    11 listening to us yesterday understand these problems, we

    12 should not say it's this one's fault or that one's

    13 fault, but this is a problem of international justice

    14 in respect of crimes which were allegedly committed in

    15 a far away territory in which it is difficult to gather

    16 evidence and which leads to these problems which might

    17 appear trivial to you, that is, spelling problems, but

    18 they are important because the parties cannot assume

    19 their responsibilities, that is, conduct their

    20 cross-examinations, and we have to try to make up for

    21 this kind of problem, as well as others.

    22 Therefore, despite the delay that this has

    23 caused, we can begin with Witness DQ. Perhaps for a

    24 few moments, we're going to go back into a private

    25 session only to cover the identifying elements, and



  9. 1 after that, we will go back into public session.

    2 Is that what you're asking, Mr. Nobilo?

    3 MR. NOBILO: Yes, Mr. President.

    4 JUDGE JORDA: All right. Just a few moments

    5 in order to clarify some of the identifying elements

    6 for the Judges. Thank you very much.

    7 (Private session)

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    11 (Open session)

    12 MR. NOBILO:

    13 Q. Witness DQ, we shall immediately move on to

    14 the events of the 18th of September, 1993. Tell me,

    15 where were you on the morning of the 18th of September,

    16 1993?

    17 A. I spent all week at the hospital. This

    18 hospital was in our church. My husband was there, he

    19 was wounded, and I spent all of that week with him. On

    20 Saturday, the 18th of September, I went home --

    21 Q. You said that you were in the hospital and

    22 that the hospital was in the church?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Could you please describe to the Court what

    25 this hospital looked like?



  12. 1 A. It is really pews that were put together, and

    2 then there were sponges between, and the heavily

    3 wounded men lay there, and they didn't really have much

    4 expert help. There weren't any doctors there to

    5 provide real medical treatment.

    6 Q. Are you trying to say that inside the church,

    7 there was an improvised hospital, a make-shift

    8 hospital?

    9 A. Yes, there was a hospital in the church.

    10 MR. NOBILO: Could we please view the first

    11 video clip and could we please have the lights dimmed?

    12 Q. Please have a look at this and tell us, is

    13 that the church, the make-shift hospital where you

    14 nursed your husband?

    15 (Videotape played)

    16 MR. NOBILO:

    17 Q. Is this the church in Nova Bila from the

    18 outside? Please, just press that button, yes. So is

    19 this the Nova Bila church from the outside?

    20 A. I can't see a thing.

    21 Q. Please, can we start from the very outset

    22 because the witness has to see this first and

    23 foremost? Just a minute, please. We want to have the

    24 tape rewound, and then we're going to start from the

    25 beginning again.



  13. 1 (Videotape played)

    2 MR. NOBILO:

    3 Q. Can you see it now?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Is this the church in Nova Bila?

    6 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes, this is where it was

    7 hit. A shell was damaged up there. These are our

    8 wounded. That's it.

    9 Q. We're going to view the entire video clip,

    10 and then we're going to put questions to you.

    11 (Videotape played)

    12 A. What we saw was the intensive care, the

    13 intensive care unit, and this is now within the church

    14 itself. The other thing we saw was -- well, not

    15 outside but it was apart from this. It was the room

    16 where the priests usually get dressed, and that is

    17 where the most heavily wounded men were, and that is

    18 where the intensive care unit was, and this is now

    19 within the church itself.

    20 These are the pews that were put together,

    21 and then sponges were put down, and this is where our

    22 wounded lay. You can see it here. See, these pews.

    23 MR. NOBILO:

    24 Q. Croats did not have any other hospital in the

    25 Lasva Valley; right?



  14. 1 A. No, no, this was the only hospital.

    2 Q. Thank you. So this was a church hospital, so

    3 to speak, in Nova Bila, and your husband lay wounded

    4 there, and then you came to your village, we're not

    5 going to mention its name, so you came to your village

    6 on the morning of the 18th of September, 1993?

    7 A. That's right.

    8 Q. Please describe to the court now what started

    9 happening then.

    10 A. That morning, I came home to see what my

    11 child was doing, and I wanted to see what my old

    12 mother-in-law was doing too, and I wanted to prepare

    13 some food for them. I went out in order to get some

    14 potatoes to prepare lunch, but I never prepared that

    15 lunch.

    16 I started preparing breakfast. I put it on

    17 the table, and bullets started coming from all sides,

    18 and then shells, and I went out in order to put the cow

    19 in the barn because one had already been killed, and I

    20 wanted to have breakfast inside, but I didn't manage to

    21 have breakfast. I was hungry. We were all hungry.

    22 When the shooting got really bad, I tried to

    23 get out. First, my son went out. A bullet hit him and

    24 he fell, and I ran out after him, and I said, "Sonny,

    25 did anything happen to you," and he said, "No mother,



  15. 1 I'm okay."

    2 Q. How old was your son then?

    3 A. Fourteen and a half. And then I went out,

    4 and since there was a lot of shooting, I still thought

    5 that the three of us could run away.

    6 Q. Who was the third person?

    7 A. My old mother-in-law. She was 73 years old.

    8 I was the first to leave, and the shooting resumed and

    9 I went back into the house. So I went into the

    10 bathroom because that was protected more than other

    11 parts of the house. So we stopped there, and an RPG

    12 grenade hit the upper story of my house, and we had no

    13 idea where to go, and I thought that the best shelter

    14 for us would be to hide where my pantry was, and I

    15 thought that we would be best protected there.

    16 So we walked in there and we closed the door,

    17 and we heard loud cries, "Allah-u-ekber. Kill the

    18 Ustashas." My son started to cry, and he said,

    19 "Mother, what are we going to do now?" And I said,

    20 "Son, we are going to wait."

    21 Then I heard the windows breaking from all

    22 sides, from the side that they were coming from. They

    23 got into the house. Some of them went upstairs, and

    24 some were shooting downstairs. All of a sudden, they

    25 went into the hallway and shot through the closed door,



  16. 1 and they wounded my son. And he shouted and said,

    2 "Mother, I'm wounded. I can't stand anymore." And

    3 then I screamed, I opened the door, and I screamed at

    4 the top of my voice. I couldn't speak for another

    5 week. I'd lost my voice after that. And I saw two

    6 Arabs standing in my hallway, and my son tried to walk

    7 but then he fell, and an Arab took a knife and tried to

    8 cut my son's throat, and I grabbed his hands, and I

    9 begged him to slaughter me first and then my son.

    10 Q. Before you proceed, could you please explain

    11 what these Arabs looked like? What kind of clothes did

    12 they wear?

    13 A. They were short men. They had brownish

    14 clothes on and sneakers, and they had little beards.

    15 They were short, dark, dark, not too dark, and they

    16 spoke Arabic, they didn't speak our language at all, I

    17 mean, Bosnian.

    18 Q. Please proceed.

    19 A. Two other Arabs came from the upper floor and

    20 one of them saw that my son was wounded. I don't know

    21 what he thought. They were saying something, of course

    22 I didn't understand anything, and this other one put

    23 his knife away, and then he started dragging my son

    24 across the hallway. And I was crying and I said,

    25 "Don't touch him, I'm going to carry my son." And my



  17. 1 mother-in-law and I did carry him out.

    2 And they walked out after us, and he took the

    3 child from my arms and threw him onto the grass, and he

    4 fell. And he started getting up, he was on his elbows,

    5 and one of these men took a rifle and put it into the

    6 throat of my son. And I didn't understand anything he

    7 was saying except for "Ustasha, Ustasha," probably he

    8 was asking how many Ustashas there were.

    9 And I wanted to say something, and he hit

    10 me. And he probably said that he wasn't asking me

    11 anything, and he was pointing at my son and saying that

    12 he wanted to ask him something. I couldn't say a

    13 word. When I turned around to see whether any of my

    14 neighbours were around, underneath my house there were

    15 hundreds.

    16 Q. Hundreds of what?

    17 A. Hundreds of BH army men, and together with

    18 them were the Mujahedin. And he raised his hand,

    19 probably he wanted to ask what he was supposed to do

    20 with us. And I was looking down, and I thought that

    21 someone would help me. And he just waved away and

    22 probably said that he didn't want to kill us after

    23 all. I didn't understand a word of what they were

    24 saying.

    25 Then there was a wheelbarrow there, and they



  18. 1 put my son on it and then they took us all to the

    2 Muslim village. When we got to the village, as I was

    3 on good terms with everybody, I didn't think they would

    4 do anything to me and that they would help me, that

    5 they would protect me from the Mujahedin.

    6 But when I came to the village nobody was

    7 there except for the army. I pleaded with them to

    8 protect me, but they separated me from my child, and

    9 they took my mother-in-law into one room and my child

    10 was taken out, somewhere outside. I cried and shouted,

    11 I didn't want to give them my child, and I shouted to

    12 them to give me back my child and I ran out like that,

    13 and I saw Jasko Dzelilovic running towards my child to

    14 kill him.

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted) I

    17 pleaded with him, I said, "Jasko, the child has done

    18 nothing to you, please don't harm him, please protect

    19 my child, please." And he said that he would fuck my

    20 Ustasha mother and that he would slaughter us all.

    21 And they took me back to where I was before

    22 and I waited there for several instances, a Kombi van

    23 arrived, and (redacted). He was

    24 the worst bandit that ever lived. And he went in, took

    25 us away, took my son and started beating him and



  19. 1 started breaking his leg. And you could hear the bones

    2 breaking, there was blood all over the place, there was

    3 bloodshed all over the place, and I pleaded with them.

    4 They told me to be quiet because they would kill me,

    5 too. And they kept threatening, "You will see what

    6 will happen to you when you come to the black house."

    7 That was the former camp which they inherited.

    8 And we went to, down there, and they started

    9 beating my child, and I screamed, and when I turned

    10 around I saw that my mother-in-law was lying on the

    11 ground (redacted)

    12 hit my mother-in-law, and she was on the ground. I

    13 tried to lift her up from the ground, but I did not

    14 succeed, because I could not see what was happening to

    15 the child.

    16 We kept turning around in circles. I

    17 appealed to everybody around me, but nobody would look

    18 at me. And then I saw (redacted), we were great

    19 friends, and I said, "(redacted), please help me, please

    20 help my child." But he turned away from me. "What do

    21 you want you Ustasha woman? How can I help you? We're

    22 not friends anymore."

    23 Q. Just one moment, please. All the names, I

    24 would like all the names struck from the transcript,

    25 but we can retain the phrase "Next door neighbour and



  20. 1 best friend."

    2 Tell us, all your next door neighbours and

    3 that great friend of yours, were they all Muslims?

    4 A. Yes, they were, yes, they were all Muslims.

    5 For 30 years I had been living there and I never

    6 quarrelled with anybody, we never had any conflicts,

    7 any problems, we were always good friends and we would

    8 visit each other.

    9 When I turned around, I saw (redacted), he was a

    10 doctor, and he was one of my neighbours where I was

    11 born. And I pleaded him, I implored him, and that was

    12 the most difficult thing for me. I said. "(redacted), if

    13 you cannot save my child, give him something to make

    14 him die an easy death and not to have to go through

    15 this torture." And he said he would help me.

    16 And my child was lying on the sand naked, and

    17 (redacted), a doctor came up, and I asked him, because we

    18 were friends, "Please, (redacted), help my child. Please,

    19 please, take him away off the ground. You can see he

    20 is bleeding."

    21 And they lifted the child up from the

    22 concrete, they took him in there, they put a lingette

    23 on him. But I was crying, they sent me to the basement

    24 along with my mother-in-law, and I cried and screamed

    25 there, and they brought me my child. And I asked him



  21. 1 "How are you, dear?" And he said, "Everything hurts,

    2 mother. Can you give me some water to drink?"

    3 And I said, "There is no water. There is

    4 nothing." He said, "Mommy, I'm hungry," and I said,

    5 "There is nothing, dear, we will just have to wait."

    6 Q. Try to calm down a little. If you would like

    7 a pause, if you would like us to take a break, I'm sure

    8 the Court will comply. All you have to do is ask.

    9 Tell us, your mother-in-law who was 73 years

    10 old, did they hit her, too?

    11 A. Yes, I've already said that that man hit, my

    12 neighbour hit my mother-in-law, and she was lying on

    13 the ground.

    14 Q. What happened next? Your son was lying in

    15 the cellar, and you --

    16 A. Well, he was suffering great pain. I did not

    17 know what to do, I helped him as much as I could, as

    18 far as I was able. His leg went black and I had to

    19 loosen the bandages a little bit.

    20 But he said, "Mommy, I can't take this

    21 anymore." I tried call (redacted) because he was the main

    22 policeman, he was the main man in the police, he was

    23 above everybody else. And I said to him, "I know you

    24 are the head, I know that you can do everything, please

    25 help my child, call a doctor for him. He cannot go to



  22. 1 the toilet." And that was the most difficult thing for

    2 him.

    3 And he said, "I'll see." I asked if we could

    4 go out to the toilet, just to see somebody who I might

    5 see to help me. And I saw (redacted) outside, and I

    6 pleaded with him, I implored him, I said, "(redacted),

    7 please, my child is in terrible pain. Can you save

    8 him?"

    9 And a little while later they came to the

    10 cellar, to the basement and put a catheter, they gave

    11 my son a catheter and helped him with his urinating

    12 problems.

    13 Later on they took me out for questioning.

    14 They asked me all kinds of questions which I couldn't

    15 answer. I did not know anything, I couldn't answer

    16 them. I wasn't interested in the war at all. And I

    17 was taken back to my child. I went back to my child,

    18 and in a little while later the Mujahedin arrived to

    19 question my child. And they made a cross and they

    20 said, "This is not Bosnia, this should not be present

    21 in Bosnia. In Bosnia everybody is going to be," and

    22 they made this sign across the throat.

    23 Q. Well, we're having a transcript made here, so

    24 we have to describe what you have shown. You showed

    25 two twigs, and they made a cross out of these two



  23. 1 twigs. And then you said -- yes, that's what I

    2 understood, because we didn't speak Bosnian properly.

    3 What did he describe to you then, could you describe

    4 it?

    5 A. He showed the sign of the cross made out of

    6 these two twigs, and he said, "We don't want this in

    7 Bosnia." That's what I understood him to say. Bosnia

    8 will be Muslim and everything that happens in Bosnia

    9 with a cross, it will no longer exist, that everybody

    10 would be slaughtered with this cross sign.

    11 Q. And he indicated with his finger across your

    12 throat?

    13 A. Yes, he made a sign with the finger across my

    14 throat.

    15 Q. We have to make some pauses in between what

    16 we're saying so that the interpreters have a chance to

    17 complete their interpretation.

    18 What happened next? Did another prisoner, an

    19 elderly man, come later on to your basement?

    20 A. Yes, I forgot to say that. About 4.00 on

    21 that same day when we were taken there, down the stairs

    22 they threw into the basement a man who was born in 1926

    23 and that was (redacted). He was all black and blue

    24 and beaten up.

    25 And I asked him what had happened, and he



  24. 1 said, "They beat me up." And I asked him, "How come

    2 you're here?" And he said, "Well, I'm here just like

    3 you're here."

    4 "How come they caught you?"

    5 And he said, "Well, I wanted to go back to

    6 the, from the forest to tend to my cows and they caught

    7 me and brought me here."

    8 "But why did they beat you up?"

    9 And he said, "I don't know. And they beat me

    10 up a great deal," and he was trembling. And I took an

    11 old dirty blanket and put it over him to stop him from

    12 shuddering. He shuddered a great deal, he shuddered

    13 all over, and he was beaten up.

    14 And that is what happened until nightfall.

    15 They came to get him again at nightfall and beat him up

    16 again, and once again, threw him back into the basement

    17 after they had beaten him up. And we were all huddled

    18 together in that basement.

    19 Another man who had, I suppose, been trench

    20 digging, he was wearing a prisoner's uniform, they all

    21 wore prisoner's uniforms.

    22 Q. You say the first man, (redacted), is he a

    23 Croat?

    24 A. Yes, yes, he is. Yes, the second one is, was

    25 a Croat, too. His name was --



  25. 1 Q. Was his name perhaps (redacted)?

    2 A. Yes, his name was (redacted). And when he came I

    3 asked him, "How come you're here, (redacted)?"

    4 And he said, "I've been here from the

    5 beginning of the war. I don't count the days anymore,

    6 I count the months."

    7 And I said, "Where were you?"

    8 And he said, "I was taken to dig trenches,

    9 look at my hands." And his hands were all bloody.

    10 Q. So from the beginning of the war he was with

    11 the Bosnia-Herzegovina army?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Let us move on now. It was the morning of

    14 the following day?

    15 A. Yes, on the morning my son, next morning my

    16 son was very ill. He had a temperature, he had a

    17 fever, he was extremely ill. (redacted) whether he

    18 had anything to give my child, some tea or anything

    19 that I could give him. But I wasn't thinking of

    20 myself, whether I was thirsty or hungry or whatever.

    21 And they said, "Well, fuck your mother, you

    22 can't have any food." But (redacted) came and brought my

    23 son some tea. It was salty tea, there was half salt

    24 and half tea, half sugar and half salt in the tea. And

    25 he said this is what had happened with the sugar, it



  26. 1 had been mixed with salt.

    2 And my son said, "This is horrible to drink,

    3 mommy," and I said, "Never mind, son, drink it anyway.

    4 At least it is tea and it will refresh you a little

    5 bit."

    6 He was ill the entire time. And on the third

    7 day he was not able to take it anymore and he said,

    8 "Mommy, I'm dying, what can I do? Help me please."

    9 And I went out and banged on the door and

    10 (redacted) came. And I said, "(redacted) please, what do you

    11 want to do with my child? He can't take the pain

    12 anymore."

    13 And he said, "We'll see, perhaps you will not

    14 live anymore, perhaps you will be killed anyway the

    15 next day."

    16 And I said, "Well, I don't mind you can do it

    17 today, you can kill us today," because life was not

    18 important to me anymore.

    19 And they came a little while after, Dr. (redacted)

    20 came, and another doctor, I think his name was

    21 redacted), and they asked me what I wanted, and I said

    22 I wanted them to help my child. And they said, "We

    23 have to take him to hospital."

    24 "Where are you going to take him," I said.

    25 And my son said, "I would like to go(redacted)



  27. 1 (redacted)" And they said, "Well, perhaps you will go

    2 there one day," said (redacted) to me, "but you are now

    3 going to be taken to Travnik."

    4 And a little while later, a van arrived and

    5 six armed Krajina soldiers turned up. And I wondered

    6 why they turned up, because my son was completely

    7 incapacitated. And they took him, he was naked, and

    8 they put him in the van, on the floor of the van.

    9 There was nothing there, it was bare. I rushed out

    10 after him, I was crying and screaming and shouting. I

    11 don't know what I was doing, I just lay, rolled in the

    12 dirt and the mud, and I couldn't leave my son and I

    13 couldn't send him away, either. Who was going to take

    14 care of him?

    15 They closed the van, I pleaded with them just

    16 to see my son a little while longer, and one of the men

    17 told me, I don't know him, one of these men from

    18 Krajina, they said, "Open the van, let this Ustasha

    19 woman see her son once again. We're going to slaughter

    20 him anyway up there, and we're going to throw him

    21 away. Does she think we're going to treat the

    22 Ustashas?"

    23 Q. Just one moment please. On two occasions you

    24 mentioned the men from Krajina, who were these men?

    25 A. These were men that had fled there from Banja



  28. 1 Luka, from Bihac, the Bihac area and Banja Luka.

    2 Q. Were they Muslims?

    3 A. Yes, they were the Muslims expelled by the

    4 Serbs.

    5 Q. And they came to Central Bosnia; is that

    6 right?

    7 A. Yes, they came to us in Central Bosnia,

    8 because they were promised that Central Bosnia would be

    9 cleared up of the Croats and that they would be able to

    10 live there.

    11 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President,

    12 perhaps we could take a break here.

    13 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, we're going to take a

    14 break, the witness can rest up. Twenty-minute break.

    15 I just want to be sure that the names are taken out of

    16 the transcript. We will resume in 20 minutes.

    17 --- Recess taken at 11.22 a.m.

    18 --- On resuming at 11.47 a.m.

    19 JUDGE JORDA: We can resume the hearing now.

    20 Have the accused brought in, please?

    21 (The accused entered court)

    22 JUDGE JORDA: Witness DQ, do you hear me?

    23 Have you been able to rest a little bit? Have you

    24 relaxed a little bit, if you can relax?

    25 THE WITNESS: Yes, a bit. Yes, I'm okay.



  29. 1 JUDGE JORDA: We're going to resume. We'll

    2 help you. If you have any problems, tell us and we can

    3 stop.

    4 Mr. Nobilo?

    5 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.

    6 Q. So they took your son away to a hospital, to

    7 the hospital in Travnik in this Kombi, and that's where

    8 we stopped before the break. So could you please

    9 continue and tell the Court what happened afterwards?

    10 A. In this attack at our place, many people were

    11 killed. One man was caught alive, (redacted). They

    12 took him to the school, tortured him, and that's how

    13 they killed him. And when his body was exchanged, they

    14 could not recognise him at all. They just found on a

    15 very small part of his body a scar from an operation he

    16 had had before that. He was beyond recognition.

    17 Many people were killed then. (redacted).

    18 Two refugees from Jajce,

    19 redacted), they were underage. Then (redacted)

    20 was also killed, (redacted).

    21 Q. (redacted)?

    22 A. Yes, (redacted).

    23 Q. Could you please describe to the Court what

    24 happened to (redacted) born in 1920?

    25 A. I heard that when these men from Krajina



  30. 1 came, that they killed a man, they slaughtered him, and

    2 they cut off his ears, and they were waving his ears

    3 all over. He was an old man. He was born in 1920, and

    4 he was a sickly man too. So they had slit his throat.

    5 So these were terrible things, and then after that came

    6 my horror.

    7 Q. The fifth night of your stay there, when they

    8 all got drunk, they called for you; right?

    9 A. First, when they took my son away, I cried

    10 all night, all night I cried. The door banged and

    11 somebody unlocked it. One of them came, one of them,

    12 and he put a torchlight in front of my face, the light

    13 was in my eyes, and I started screaming, I said,

    14 "Please don't. What do you want to do to me?" And he

    15 said, "What are you crying for? Get out."

    16 And I stood there, and he waited a bit, and

    17 he stayed there on his own, and then he said "Why are

    18 you crying?" And I said, "Is my son alive? I don't

    19 know anything about him." And he said -- he was (redacted).

    20 He said, "Don't

    21 cry. I'll help you. I'll go to Travnik and I'll bring

    22 you a letter from your son. You'll see that he's

    23 alive." And then I managed to compose myself a bit. I

    24 went back to the basement, and he told me to keep quiet

    25 and that I shouldn't tell anyone about this.



  31. 1 On the fifth night, they all got drunk. I

    2 heard them screaming, I heard them playing music. One

    3 of them, (redacted), said, "(redacted)

    4 here," and I started crying, screaming. I woke up my

    5 mother-in-law, and I said, "Oh, what's going to happen

    6 to me now?" And some were shouting, "You shouldn't do

    7 that," and others wanted to. So there was some kind of

    8 a misunderstanding, they were quarrelling, and I was

    9 crying, crying, and everything went silent.

    10 Q. How did you understand this, when you said

    11 that they wanted to take you out, what was your

    12 understanding of this? What did some people want to do

    13 and others had opposed this?

    14 A. I thought that they wanted to rape me.

    15 That's what I thought.

    16 Q. You said a few minutes ago that many were

    17 killed when the BH army came into your village and

    18 hamlet. Tell me, did you notice any defence on the

    19 Croatian side?

    20 A. No, no, and when I came down there, this

    21 friend of mine, former friend of mine, said to me,

    22 "Look at the Ustashas. They are all dispersed. No

    23 one is there. They didn't even fire a bullet."

    24 There were about 20 of our locals there who

    25 didn't even have rifles. There were a few rifles that



  32. 1 were in the trenches, and then they all used the same

    2 rifle. Two soldiers would use the same rifle. And I

    3 said, "So many of you have attacked," and he said,

    4 "Yes, 800 headed by the Mujahedin," and I said,

    5 "Why?" And he said, "We want to join this place to

    6 the Mahala," and I said, "Why didn't you do it before

    7 that?" And he said, "We couldn't get the Mujahedin

    8 units in because we do not take any action without

    9 them," and that's it.

    10 Q. What about the other civilians who did not

    11 escape? Where were they taken?

    12 A. The other civilians who did not escape were

    13 all taken to this camp up there and were killed,

    14 whoever could not flee. So who stayed was killed.

    15 Q. At one point in time, did five Arab Mujahedin

    16 come and did they interrogate you?

    17 A. Yes, that was the night of the 9th -- I mean,

    18 I think a day before that a man came, a young man.

    19 They threw him into this cell, and they pretended to

    20 beat him a bit, and I asked him, "Who are you?" And he

    21 said, "I've been taken prisoner near Travnik, and they

    22 beat me," he said, and he didn't have any teeth, hardly

    23 any.

    24 Then he started asking us about this, that,

    25 and the other thing, and we said various things. And



  33. 1 perhaps with all my troubles, I must have said

    2 something bad, something that they didn't like. And

    3 then they asked (redacted), "Old man, why did you go

    4 back? Why did you let them catch you," and he said, "I

    5 went to tend my cows and I thought that nothing would

    6 happen, and I thought that there was a bit of an attack

    7 and that they wouldn't come to our village," and that's

    8 how they caught him. And then they said to him, "Old

    9 man, that cow of yours is going to cost you your life,"

    10 and all of a sudden we realised that he was not one of

    11 our people, that he was put in there to be amongst us.

    12 After that, five Mujahedin came to my

    13 basement, and (redacted) said to my mother-in-law, "Go out."

    14 They went out and I stayed there on my own. It was

    15 half dark in the basement. They brought me some kind

    16 of a map and they put it in front of my eyes, and they

    17 asked me where the trenches were, and I said, "Well, if

    18 our village has fallen, you probably know where the

    19 trenches are. How should I know?" "How many soldiers

    20 do you have? How many trenches do you have," they

    21 said, and I said, "It's only our locals. We haven't

    22 got anybody else. It's only us. We were the only ones

    23 there."

    24 And then they said to me, "Show us where the

    25 trenches are," and I said, "I can't see a thing. It's



  34. 1 dark," and then they said, "You Ustasha motherfucker,

    2 why don't you talk," and they started beating me, and I

    3 couldn't take it anymore, and I begged them to let me

    4 go. I said that I didn't know a thing, and they asked

    5 me who the commanders were, and I said that I didn't

    6 have the slightest idea, and they went on beating me.

    7 And a Mujahedin walked up to me behind my

    8 back and he grabbed me by the hair, and he put a knife

    9 to my neck and I felt that he would cut my skin, and I

    10 begged him and he let me go. And the other one who was

    11 translating, he said, "You Ustasha, why don't you

    12 talk? Now I'm going to blow your brains out," and he

    13 put a gun to my head, and I said "Please shoot,

    14 shoot." And he said, "Oh, no, no, you Ustasha

    15 motherfucker, you're not going to die that easy, no.

    16 Now you're going to see how you're going to get

    17 killed." And then (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 A. Yes, he did, and he said, "Enough." And I

    20 turned to him all in blood, and (redacted)

    21 why did you do this to me? Why did you bring them here

    22 to kill me?" And he just waved his hand, and he walked

    23 out with the three Mujahedin. And I felt sick, I had a

    24 stomach ache, and I begged them to let me go to the

    25 toilet.



  35. 1 Q. Tell me, did they take something from you on

    2 that occasion?

    3 A. Everything, they took away everything, my

    4 watch, my ring, a memento I had from my late father, my

    5 jacket, my shoes, everything I had on me, everything.

    6 And I begged for them to let me go to the toilet, and

    7 they stared at me, and I was making signs that I had a

    8 stomach ache and could I get out, and they grabbed me

    9 by the hair and dragged me up the stairs. And I

    10 screamed because it was very painful, and the other one

    11 hit me on the head with a baton, and they dragged me by

    12 the hair outside.

    13 Then as I got outside, (redacted) was

    14 sitting out there on the grass and my mother-in-law,

    15 they were looking at me, and (redacted) and my mother-in-law

    16 were crying, and my mother-in-law said, "What did you

    17 do to my daughter-in-law?" And I went back to the

    18 basement. They took (redacted) and my mother-in-law back

    19 into the basement, and they locked me up in a different

    20 room which was some kind of a solitary cell, and I was

    21 there until the night. And I seemed to doze off, given

    22 all this torture, and I had dreamed that my throat was

    23 slit open.

    24 Q. That your throat was slit?

    25 A. Yes, that my throat was slit open and that I



  36. 1 was bleeding, and I jumped up and I was banging at the

    2 door and hitting the walls. Everybody got up, they

    3 opened the door, and they said, "What is the matter

    4 with you? What are you doing?" And I said that my

    5 throat had been slit, and they took a torchlight and

    6 they took me to some kind of a mirror in the hallway,

    7 and they said, "See, your throat isn't slit. What are

    8 you saying?" And I begged them to bring my

    9 mother-in-law to stay with me, and they did bring her

    10 in to stay with me.

    11 The next day, we went to the basement again.

    12 They brought us dinner, lentils and some kind of

    13 horrible bread that you couldn't eat. And then they

    14 came and called out (redacted)'s name. They called

    15 him (redacted). From his young days, he was

    16 called (redacted). And then he went out, and then

    17 they asked him how old he was, et cetera, and then they

    18 said, "You were an Ustasha during the Second World

    19 War," and he said, "No, I was in the Partizans," and

    20 they said, "No, no, no, we know you, you Ustasha

    21 motherfucker, we know," and then they took him away and

    22 I never saw him again.

    23 Q. What did you hear? Tell the Court what

    24 happened to the man born in 1929, (redacted)?

    25 A. Well, from (redacted), you mean? Who do you



  37. 1 mean?

    2 Q. I'm thinking of (redacted). What happened

    3 to him?

    4 A. Well, two or three days went by. They were

    5 all drunk. The Krajina men made some mistakes, and

    6 they turned us out of the room where I was, and that's

    7 where they locked them up, and we all went out into the

    8 sunlight for a bit because it was very cold. And I

    9 asked one of the men from Krajina, "Where is (redacted)?

    10 How come (redacted) isn't here?" And he said, "(redacted) has

    11 gone down there with the dead across the border. His

    12 son had the money to pay for him to be exchanged. Do

    13 you have any money so that you can be exchanged?" I

    14 said I had no money, and he said, "Well, then, you're

    15 going to have to rot here."

    16 Q. Did (redacted) survive? What, in fact, happened

    17 to him? Explain to the Court.

    18 A. No, he was taken to Mile, and they all

    19 demined the fields with our people. I was to go, but

    20 maybe somebody saved me from this. And then afterwards

    21 the Krajina people arrived.

    22 Q. Before you go on to the next event with the

    23 Krajina men, what does it mean, "Take you to the

    24 mines," how did they use civilians such as (redacted) from

    25 your own village? Could you give us a detailed



  38. 1 description of what you mean by that?

    2 A. What they would do is they would take

    3 somebody, a man, and they would let the man go in front

    4 of them to demine the field. And they took over a

    5 trench with (redacted), and they would allow these people to

    6 go in front of them, and that man would die, the mines

    7 would explode and then they would follow afterwards.

    8 Than is how they made this breakthrough across the

    9 minefields.

    10 Q. Do you wish to say that the Croats sent

    11 civilians to the minefield so that the, if the mines

    12 were exploded then the army would be able to pass?

    13 A. Yes, yes. And when I cried and said, "I hope

    14 my son was not wounded," and he said, "Well, it would

    15 be better for him to be wounded, because had he not

    16 gone he would have gone up to the frontline, and that

    17 was what would happen".

    18 Q. There seems to be an error in the

    19 interpretation. I'm going to say what you said and you

    20 can either confirm that or deny it. The army of

    21 Bosnia-Herzegovina would send the Croat civilians out

    22 into the minefields ahead of them so as to activate the

    23 mines and clear the passage for them to pass?

    24 A. Yes, that is correct, that is what I mean.

    25 Q. Thank you. Now we're going to move on to an



  39. 1 event, to the following event, when explosives were

    2 tied to your body. This was on the 10th day. Could

    3 you explain to the Trial Chamber what happened on the

    4 10th day of your confinement?

    5 A. On the 10th day of my imprisonment, the

    6 Krajina men came and called me to come out. I went

    7 out, I was beaten up, completely, and they started

    8 interrogating me. I was not able to walk, and one of

    9 the Krajina men asked me, "What happened to you? Who

    10 beat you up?" And I said, "The Mujahedin," and he

    11 asked me, "Did they rape you?" And I said, "No." And

    12 he said, "You're very lucky, you're a lucky woman."

    13 And he said, "You're going to help us, you're going to

    14 help us save your son." And I said, "How?"

    15 "Well," he said, "you're going to go and

    16 take out our dead bodies from the no man's land in

    17 between the two zones." And I said, "I don't dare do

    18 that."

    19 And he said, "You want to save your child?"

    20 And I said, "Yes, I do."

    21 "Well," he said, "then you're going to do

    22 that".

    23 Q. Just one moment, please, the interim zone,

    24 could you explain to the Court what you mean by the "no

    25 man's land"?



  40. 1 A. It was the land between the two borders.

    2 Q. What two borders?

    3 A. The two borders, frontiers, between us and

    4 the Muslims.

    5 Q. So you want to say between the two

    6 frontlines; is that right?

    7 A. Yes, between the two frontlines. And they

    8 had started this breakthrough and encountered mines and

    9 died, and that is where their bodies remained. They

    10 were the men from Krajina.

    11 And so we wanted, they wanted me to bring out

    12 their dead, to pick up the dead bodies from this "no

    13 man's land". They came to collect me the next day, I

    14 didn't know it was as terrible as it was. I thought, I

    15 was happy because I thought I would be seeing my

    16 child.

    17 But they took me up there to a house, it

    18 belonged to (redacted), and they brought some mines

    19 and explosives, and they put me there and asked me,

    20 "Would it be difficult for you to carry this across,

    21 to go over there?" I was just numb and I cried, I

    22 looked at all this, and they took the mines and

    23 explosives and placed it on my body and put some sticky

    24 tape to attach the explosives to my body.

    25 And then a young man came up, one of the



  41. 1 Krajina men, and he said, "Don't do that. I was with

    2 her son last night, I talked to him. Perhaps her son

    3 could do that instead of her. She won't succeed in

    4 doing this, but she will try."

    5 Q. And he was thinking of your second son who

    6 was in the HVO?

    7 A. Yes, that's right. He asked about us,

    8 whether we were alive, and I told her son that yes,

    9 they were alive, and that the young son was in

    10 hospital, and I think that the son would do this for

    11 his mother.

    12 And then they took off the explosives and

    13 took me to where this young man had been speaking.

    14 They gave me a megaphone and said, "Call your son and

    15 ask him to do this job for you, if he has a mother." I

    16 called and called, but there was no answer from my

    17 son. It was only my neighbour who responded to my

    18 call. He asked me what I wanted, and I said, "There

    19 are some dead people here, some dead bodies, the

    20 Krajina men dead bodies, can you take the dead bodies

    21 out so I don't have to do it." He said, "That is

    22 impossible for you to do, we will do it. Wait for two

    23 or three hours until we do this, until we see, and we

    24 will say what we're able to do."

    25 And we waited there, and time passed. They



  42. 1 gave me a loud speaker once again, a megaphone to call

    2 to them, and I called out to them and they said, "We

    3 found nobody, there is nobody there."

    4 And the person that wanted to find these

    5 other people was a relation of the men that were lying

    6 dead there, and he said, "Say that there is somebody,

    7 and if they want to do this job they can."

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)



  43. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 Q. Please try to avoid mentioning any names, we

    7 are going to delete them from the transcript, but

    8 please try not to mention your own name.

    9 So these two men made a decision, and what

    10 about the bodies on this, this "no man's land", were

    11 you able to take away the bodies?

    12 A. Yes, they were, and they were exchanged.

    13 Q. Tell us, when did your troubles and horrors

    14 come to an end? When were you released from the camp?

    15 A. On the 9th of November. And when this came

    16 about the Red Cross arrived and took an inventory of

    17 all of us and said we were now secure and safe and that

    18 nobody would harm us until the exchange took place.

    19 And I was exchanged on the 9th of November.

    20 The exchange team came to collect me and I was very

    21 happy. And I rushed out thinking that they were

    22 bringing me my child, but that was not the case. My

    23 child was not there. They exchanged me. And after the

    24 24th my child came away, but it was not my child, it

    25 was just half my child, half my child.



  44. 1 Q. When you say "half your child," what do you

    2 mean?

    3 A. Well, it was just skin and bone.

    4 Q. You were exchanged on the 9th of November,

    5 1993, would you remind the Court when you were arrested

    6 as a civilian?

    7 A. I was arrested on the 18th of September, and

    8 on the 9th of November I left.

    9 Q. After they let you depart from the camp, you

    10 lived in, you were housed in a building below which

    11 there was a mortuary.

    12 A. Yes, that's correct.

    13 Q. Did you see many funerals?

    14 A. Yes, everybody passing by there. I saw all

    15 this with my own eyes. I saw them come to the hall, 32

    16 from Krizancevo Selo. They were terrible massacres,

    17 they were all massacred, and I saw one boy, his feet

    18 were sticking up like this (indicating) and he had no

    19 meat on the feet, on his feet, just bones.

    20 Q. We're now going to look at a videotape which

    21 I should like to ask you to look at carefully, and

    22 perhaps later on we shall have some questions to ask

    23 you. So may we have the lights dimmed, please, and see

    24 the videotape until the end. There are three

    25 sequences.



  45. 1 (Videotape played)

    2 Q. Is that the scene from the mortuary in

    3 Vitez? Can you see properly? Something seems to have

    4 been blocked.

    5 MR. NOBILO: May we wind it back to the

    6 beginning, please? Let's have the tape from the

    7 beginning. And if there is any sound, may we have the

    8 sound track, too? But please wind it back to the

    9 beginning, and put up the volume.

    10 A. It was night time, and all of them were buried

    11 during the night.

    12 Q. These are people in front of the mortuary,

    13 are they?

    14 A. Yes, they are. These are people standing in

    15 front of the mortuary. It wasn't a mortuary, it was

    16 just an unfinished building, a makeshift mortuary, no

    17 doors, nothing. That's where they took the dead

    18 bodies.

    19 Q. Were scenes of this kind frequently seen in

    20 Vitez?

    21 A. Yes, very frequently. They were daily,

    22 practically daily occurrences.

    23 Q. Tell me, were there mass funerals attended by

    24 lots of people?

    25 A. Yes, they were, they were mass funerals



  46. 1 attended by a great many people.

    2 Q. Do you recognise this man?

    3 A. Yes, his wife and son died. This woman's

    4 husband was killed.

    5 Q. Tell us, please, from Krizancevo Selo, how

    6 many bodies were brought here?

    7 A. The first time 32 bodies were brought, the

    8 ones I saw, 32 bodies, on the first occasion.

    9 Q. Do you know from Bobasi how many bodies were

    10 brought?

    11 A. I don't know. I was in prison up there when

    12 the bodies from Bobasi were brought. I only know from

    13 Krizancevo Selo and Buhine Kuce.

    14 Q. What about Buhine Kuce, how many bodies from

    15 there?

    16 A. I don't know exactly.

    17 Q. Tell us, please, while we're looking at this,

    18 your village, you said that there were 50 Croat houses?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Did any house remain standing?

    21 A. No, not a single house remained standing.

    22 Everything had been destroyed and burned.

    23 Q. Tell us, please, during these funerals, by

    24 force of circumstance you lived in the environs, these

    25 are mass funerals, did you encounter women from Vitez?



  47. 1 A. Yes, I was among them. They were embittered,

    2 they were bitter, they cursed and swore.

    3 Q. Who did they curse and swear?

    4 A. They cursed Cerkez and Blaskic. They cursed

    5 them and said that it was their fault that all this had

    6 happened because they had protected the Muslims and

    7 that our people had died, and they were bitter. And on

    8 that occasion they might have -- had they met any one

    9 of these on this occasion they wouldn't have fared

    10 well.

    11 Q. So they were bitter with Cerkez, the

    12 commander of the Vitez Brigade, and Blaskic, as well,

    13 the commander, for protecting the Muslims?

    14 A. Yes, yes.

    15 Q. Give us an example, for example, what did the

    16 women at the funeral mention, as an example? How did

    17 Blaskic and Cerkez protect these people? What did they

    18 not allow to take place?

    19 A. Well, no attacks, particularly on old Vitez,

    20 Stari Vitez, because snipers kept hitting Stari Vitez

    21 and people died every day, sometimes, on some days five

    22 people would die. Darko Kraljevic organised an attack,

    23 and he thought that they would help him with their

    24 guns. But there was no command to help the people, and

    25 21 people died on the occasion, and they all cursed



  48. 1 them and swore them, and said, "Well, God if we could

    2 just get hold of them, we know what we would do to

    3 them".

    4 Q. I think there has been an error in the

    5 transcript. So the snipers did not shoot at Stari

    6 Vitez but from Stari Vitez?

    7 A. Yes, that's right, they were shooting from

    8 Stari Vitez, at us, from snipers, and somebody was

    9 always killed.

    10 Q. Who was in Stari Vitez?

    11 A. It was the Muslims in Stari Vitez. And there

    12 was to have been an attack, because it was the central

    13 part of Vitez there.

    14 Q. And the Croats, for the most part, lived in

    15 Vitez?

    16 A. Yes, whereas in Stari Vitez, in the middle of

    17 town, this is where the Muslims lived. And everybody

    18 from around shot at us, from all around. And there was

    19 to be an operation launched there when Darko Kraljevic

    20 led that operation and asked the commanders, asked

    21 Cerkez and Blaskic to help him with the gunnery; but

    22 they would not allow this. And that is where 21 men

    23 died.

    24 Q. Croats, you mean?

    25 A. Yes, Croats.



  49. 1 Q. Tell us, please, what did you hear these

    2 women saying? Why did Blaskic and Cerkez not allow the

    3 artillery to attack Stari Vitez?

    4 A. Well, they said, what about the population,

    5 the population was not able to escape, and what would

    6 happen to the population, it would be a sort of

    7 massacre, I don't know. So that they protected them.

    8 Whereas, our folk died.

    9 Q. When you say "protected them," you mean they

    10 protected the Muslims?

    11 A. Yes, that's right, the Muslims, they

    12 protected the Muslims, and in that respect, they really

    13 were protected by them. And our people, the people of

    14 Vitez, were bitter about this, and they will never

    15 forgive them for that.

    16 Q. We would like to offer the tape into

    17 evidence, or first the map, D460, under seal. Also, we

    18 offer the tape, it will be D461, so this will be a

    19 Defence Exhibit.

    20 Mr. President, we have concluded the

    21 examination-in-chief.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: No objection from the

    23 Prosecutor as regarding the tendering of those

    24 exhibits?

    25 THE REGISTRAR: I would like a clarification



  50. 1 here. There were two films that were shown, there were

    2 two cassettes; is that correct?

    3 MR. NOBILO: One.

    4 THE REGISTRAR: No? Then D461A concerns the

    5 hospital, and B is the film we have just seen, but it

    6 is the same tape.

    7 JUDGE JORDA: No comments from the

    8 Prosecutor? Mr. Cayley? In light of what was just

    9 said, questions and answers, do you feel that you are

    10 in a position -- I know you're capable of doing it, but

    11 are you in a position to conduct your

    12 cross-examination, or would you like some time? What's

    13 your opinion.

    14 MR. CAYLEY: The position that we take, Mr.

    15 President, is the witness should come back tomorrow.

    16 It may well be that after I've considered matters I

    17 don't have any questions, but at the moment I'm not in

    18 a position to say whether I do or not.

    19 There are some other comments I would

    20 actually also like to make about the summary in respect

    21 of this witness, but I think that should be done

    22 outside the presence of the witness, because I don't

    23 wish to, in any way, give the impression to the witness

    24 that we minimise her suffering. So if that could be

    25 done with the witness outside the courtroom.



  51. 1 JUDGE JORDA: Let me first explain to the

    2 witness what is happening.

    3 Witness DQ, there was a mistake in the

    4 spelling of your first name, and that did not allow the

    5 opposing party, that is the Office of the Prosecutor,

    6 to prepare properly and equitably so that the

    7 cross-examination could be conducted. That's why we're

    8 going to ask you to come back tomorrow. I would like

    9 you to remain in The Hague a little bit longer, but

    10 that's for the sake of equitable justice. The Judges

    11 are here to be sure both parties have the time to say

    12 what they need to say. It's unfortunate, but that's

    13 how things are.

    14 You will be taken care of by the Victims and

    15 Witnesses Unit, and you will stay in The Hague a little

    16 bit longer. We're going to ask you to withdraw,

    17 because I believe the Prosecutor has a statement he

    18 wishes to make, or rather a comment. We thank you for

    19 having come today, and we will see you tomorrow at

    20 10.00 in the morning. And in the meantime, try to

    21 rest.

    22 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

    23 JUDGE JORDA: We're going to lower the

    24 curtain so you can leave the courtroom without anybody

    25 being able to see your face.



  52. 1 All right, you can now stand and we could say

    2 good-bye to you until tomorrow morning.

    3 (The witness withdrew)

    4 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Cayley, you had a comment

    5 you wanted to make? This is a public hearing, is it

    6 not? Yes, it is, but if this doesn't affect the

    7 witness's protective measures we can remain in public.

    8 MR. CAYLEY: I think it would be prudent, Mr.

    9 President, to actually move into a private session

    10 while we're discussing this.

    11 JUDGE JORDA: Very well, let's move into a

    12 private session.

    13 (Private session)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

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  1. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 All right. The Court stands adjourned and we

    5 will resume at 2.30.

    6 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.44 p.m.

    7 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

    8 (Open session)

    9 JUDGE JORDA: We can now resume. Have the accused

    10 brought in, please.

    11 (The accused entered court)

    12 JUDGE JORDA: Is this a protected witness,

    13 Mr. Nobilo?

    14 MR. NOBILO: Yes, he is, Mr. President, a

    15 protected witness. Pseudonym and face distortion.

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Registrar, have the witness

    17 brought in. What is the pseudonym? What will this be,

    18 DR?

    19 (The witness entered court)

    20 JUDGE JORDA: Do you hear me.

    21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: I'm the Presiding Judge. Don't

    23 be afraid of anything, you are before Judges. We are

    24 not wearing our robes, our Judges robes, but I can

    25 assure you we are Judges. Do not be afraid --



  2. 1 THE WITNESS: I'm not afraid.

    2 JUDGE JORDA: First of all, we're going to

    3 ask you to stand and to look at your name -- what are

    4 we going to do, Mr. Registrar?

    5 We're going to ask you to read your name but

    6 not to state your name. Don't say it. Can you see?

    7 Is that, in fact, your name?

    8 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    9 JUDGE JORDA: Okay. We're going to ask you

    10 to remain standing a little while longer, because we're

    11 going to ask you to take a solemn declaration. The

    12 registrar is going to read you a statement, and then

    13 you repeat after him what he says. All right.

    14 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    15 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

    16 truth.

    17 WITNESS: DR

    18 JUDGE JORDA: All right, Witness DR. We're

    19 going to call you DR in order to protect you. You may

    20 be seated now. This means that your face does not show

    21 on the screen and we're going to use two letters to

    22 refer to you. Be careful when you answer the

    23 questions. Do not give out any information which might

    24 identify you. If that should happen, do not worry.

    25 There are ways that we can erase from the transcript



  3. 1 what you may have said that might identify you.

    2 First, you will be asked questions by the

    3 attorney who asked you to come. That is Mr. Nobilo.

    4 Let me remind you that the accused is in this

    5 courtroom, to your left; that is General Blaskic.

    6 Speak without fear, without hatred. Try to

    7 tell us what you have to say. We have a summary of

    8 your testimony that has to do with attacks against

    9 certain villages, and you can say what you experienced,

    10 but first you're going to answer Mr. Nobilo's

    11 questions.

    12 Mr. Nobilo, proceed, please.

    13 Examined by Mr. Nobilo:

    14 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President. I

    15 would like to ask for a private session for one or two

    16 minutes for identification purposes, and to hand out a

    17 map, because the map shows the position and locality of

    18 the village from which the protected witness comes.

    19 (Private session)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)



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  6. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

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    5 (redacted)

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    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (Open session)

    16 JUDGE JORDA: Please continue, Mr. Nobilo.

    17 MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President.

    18 Q. So your village, the village you lived in,

    19 what were the relationships between the Croats and

    20 Muslims before all these hostilities started?

    21 A. They were fine relations. We didn't differ

    22 much in anything. When my sons went in the army, they

    23 would come to visit us. If we had any roast being

    24 prepared, roast meat being prepared, then we would --

    25 they would come and we were all together, all sat down



  7. 1 together, and they were good neighbourly relations.

    2 Nobody would depart and saying anything ill to

    3 anybody. We all lived together.

    4 Q. Could I ask you to slow down, please? I'm

    5 going to ask you something now, for this to be made

    6 clear to the -- I'm going to ask you something for

    7 clarification purposes. When you say "they" would

    8 come, who did you have in mind?

    9 A. I'm thinking of the Muslims. We were all

    10 together. We were just separated by a road, and the

    11 Muslims, our neighbours, would come visiting, and we

    12 would go visiting, we would visit them, I went with my

    13 husband, when one of their children would go to the

    14 army. We had a nice time. They would always give us

    15 some nice refreshments. And they would come to our

    16 house too.

    17 Q. Thank you. When you told the Court that the

    18 Muslims would come visiting and you would slaughter a

    19 sheep for them, why did you do that?

    20 A. Well, we did that because we respected them.

    21 There was no hatred between us, and we -- they had

    22 lunch at my place, and we prepared this sheep, and a

    23 year ago we had no problems, no changes. We didn't

    24 know that any -- there would be ever any troubles

    25 between us.



  8. 1 Q. Do you wish to say that out of respect

    2 towards the Muslim traditions, you gave them meat from

    3 a sheep and not from pigs?

    4 A. Yes. They had their own table, their own

    5 things to eat, what they wanted to drink, if they

    6 wanted any alcoholic beverage, if they did not, they

    7 would be given fruit juices. So we always took this

    8 into account, and gave them the mutton and sheep to eat

    9 so that we would never give any other meat to them, we

    10 wouldn't be underhanded in that way.

    11 Q. Just one moment, please. Let me ask you my

    12 question.

    13 I asked you whether you slaughtered the sheep

    14 to give them sheep instead of pork and so respect their

    15 customs, the Muslim customs?

    16 A. Yes, that's quite right. We would slaughter

    17 a sheep for them.

    18 Q. Now, tell me please, before the 8th of June,

    19 1993, when the conflict broke out and your village was

    20 attacked, what were the first misunderstandings between

    21 the Muslims and Croats, particularly the younger people

    22 who had weapons?

    23 A. Well, they had weapons, but nobody had a

    24 great deal, perhaps one rifle or two rifles,

    25 depending. And the misunderstanding broke out in the



  9. 1 following way: They wanted, the Muslims wanted to have

    2 the main command at Naodici, which is where the

    3 Mujahedin were. We all knew that. They lived there.

    4 They had been living there for more than a year. And

    5 they wanted the command headquarters to be at Naodici.

    6 That's what the Muslims wanted. Our people didn't

    7 agree with that, and that's where the first

    8 misunderstandings broke out between our men and the

    9 Muslims.

    10 Q. And when you went to Mehurici, to the market,

    11 did you see the Mujahedin? If so, describe what they

    12 looked like.

    13 A. Yes, we did see the Mujahedin. They came--

    14 they are different from our people. They wore

    15 different clothing. They had long robes and they had

    16 something white over their heads and long beards, and

    17 they were rather strange, stranger than our own folk.

    18 Sometimes we would go to market and see them and we

    19 wondered what they were doing here, because there were

    20 more and more of them every day. That's what it was

    21 like. And it wasn't -- you see, they would turn up.

    22 Q. Tell us, the local Muslims, both men and

    23 women, before this war did they differ essentially in

    24 the way they dressed from the local Croats?

    25 A. Well, they started to. Young women wore the



  10. 1 same things as us Croats, but afterwards they began

    2 wearing the Turkish striped chalvara trousers. So they

    3 didn't differ to begin with, but later on they began

    4 covering themselves up, and I don't remember them

    5 having been covered up before, but our grandmothers

    6 used to tell us that they once dressed like that, but

    7 that is over 50 years ago, but suddenly they began

    8 covering themselves up. Then we began to panic

    9 somewhat.

    10 Q. When you say that the women began covering

    11 themselves up, would you describe to the Court what you

    12 mean by that?

    13 A. Well, they would wear a long black dress and

    14 above here there would be a black scarf, and they would

    15 cover their faces, and here they would just have a

    16 little sort of -- you could see their eyes a little bit

    17 but everything would be covered. How shall I put it?

    18 You know, it was slightly transparent so they could see

    19 a little bit. But this -- we found this very strange

    20 when we started seeing people dressed in this way, our

    21 neighbours dressed in this way.

    22 Q. And this wasn't the custom previously?

    23 A. No, it never existed. It wasn't the custom.

    24 I never had occasion to see that type of dress, and of

    25 course, the younger people never saw anything of that



  11. 1 kind before.

    2 Q. Amongst the people in buses and the men

    3 between, the discussions between the Muslim men and

    4 Croat men, what led to dissension?

    5 A. I don't know, it was a long time ago when

    6 they ruled Bosnia and they said that ours used to

    7 marry, and they always spent the first night with our

    8 bride, and then he said in one of the buses on one

    9 occasion, the same times here with us again today, and

    10 that was the source of discontent. It's the time when

    11 we are sleeping with your women again. And this led to

    12 a great deal of panic and a lot of excitement, and

    13 brawls broke out. And so that was what was amiss. It

    14 was an insult for our men. But that's what the older

    15 folk used to tell us about this, but none of the

    16 younger people remembered any of this happening.

    17 Q. So are you, in fact, referring to the right

    18 of the Bays, the Turkish Bays to sleep with young

    19 Christian brides and have to spend their first night

    20 with the Bays?

    21 A. This was the custom, yes, this was the old

    22 custom. There were stories handed down from our

    23 forefathers that things like this used to happen in

    24 Turkish times. But with the present generations, none

    25 of us ever experienced that. And people panicked, why



  12. 1 these stories should be brought up again, and there was

    2 not the confidence and trust that there was between the

    3 two people previously.

    4 Q. Now, let's move towards events in your

    5 village, the events that began on the 8th of June

    6 1993. But before we do that, were there any incidents

    7 that broke out with regard to the prisoners?

    8 A. Well, they were not together, but they went

    9 up to the frontlines, the area called Skulje towards

    10 the Chetniks. The Muslims went and our own men went,

    11 ours had their own buses, and the Muslims had their own

    12 buses. And my son was amongst them. And when the

    13 first incident broke out, they were met at Zukica

    14 bridge, three days prior to that particular unfortunate

    15 day which hit us all so bad.

    16 They stood in front of the bus, it was a

    17 truck, I don't remember whether it was a truck covered

    18 with a canvas or a bus or whatever, because this was

    19 further off from our village, I'm not quite sure, but

    20 they met this truck or vehicle or bus, whatever it was,

    21 there were 25 of our young men in it, and they took

    22 away their rifles, and disarmed them and provoked

    23 them. Then our army was up there at Ovnak, and they

    24 took our men prisoners and took some of their

    25 prisoners.



  13. 1 Then there was an agreement, and there were

    2 negotiations, at Ovnak, and then they let our men go

    3 but they took away their ammunition, they returned

    4 their rifles and they would release the other people,

    5 and that is how that incident took place.

    6 Q. For purposes of the transcript, when you say

    7 ours, you were are referring to the Croats, and when

    8 you say theirs, you're thinking about the Muslims; is

    9 that right?

    10 A. Yes, the Muslims, yes. Yes, they were

    11 Muslims, and so they returned their rifles but kept the

    12 ammunition, they took all their ammunition away.

    13 Q. One day prior to the attack what the Muslims

    14 do to the shepherds and sheep, Croat shepherds and

    15 their sheep?

    16 A. Prior to the attack they went up there and

    17 our shepherds could not go to our mountain, and they

    18 say that the Muslim army had gone out onto our side,

    19 that was Gorcevica and Vlasic mountain, and our

    20 shepherds had gone to Mount Vlasic. And then one day

    21 prior to the attack, it was the 7th and the attack was

    22 on the 8th, they took prisoner from my own village, one

    23 of my neighbours, my husband's -- her sheep, she had

    24 200 sheep and the other one had 300 sheep, and the

    25 daughter-in-law was there with her small children, she



  14. 1 had three children, the eldest child was 6 years old.

    2 So we heard in the evening that (redacted) was

    3 taken prisoner, that all his sheep had been confiscated

    4 and he was at Meuric, and it was very late, there was a

    5 great deal of panic all over the place during that

    6 night, and in the morning we were attacked and that was

    7 what happened.

    8 Q. When you say the 7th and then you say the

    9 8th, are you speaking of June, 1993?

    10 A. Yes, yes, on the 7th --

    11 Q. What month?

    12 A. It was June, it was the 7th day of June when

    13 the sheep were taken away and the shepherds turned

    14 away. There were two from our village and perhaps more

    15 from other villages, but I know exactly who was taken

    16 from my own village, but there were others taken away

    17 as well. There were a lot of these shepherds and they

    18 were taken to Meuric.

    19 And (redacted), I know they beat him up and

    20 he died quite recently. They beat up his children,

    21 they broke his children's teeth, and that's what

    22 happened. I know for a fact that happened.

    23 Q. You said that you were afraid. On the night

    24 before the attack, did you spend the night in your

    25 village or did you go somewhere else to spend the



  15. 1 night? That is to say, the civilians from your

    2 village.

    3 A. When the weapons were taken away from our

    4 men, our soldiers, when their weapons were taken away,

    5 down there at (redacted) bridge, women and children weren't

    6 there, and they went into the village I was born in,

    7 there aren't any Muslims living there, and I stayed

    8 with my husband at home, and my children were there,

    9 too. So we were there at home.

    10 Q. What about the civilians?

    11 A. The civilians, my eight young grandchildren,

    12 my daughters-in-law, everybody, they spent the night

    13 down there. I mean, everybody wanted to be safe. I

    14 mean, everybody, you know, the Croat population, they

    15 wanted to be safe.

    16 Q. And when you say "down there," what do you

    17 mean by "down there"?

    18 A. Down there is (redacted). That's where I

    19 was born. (redacted) and (redacted). (redacted) we

    20 lived with the Muslims, and down in (redacted) there

    21 were no Muslims.

    22 Q. So you and your husband remained in your

    23 village in (redacted). And what happened at dawn, at

    24 3.30 a.m., on the 8th of June, 1993? Could you

    25 describe this for the Trial Chamber, please?



  16. 1 A. Well, they, the menfolk and the child came at

    2 dawn, he went to sleep for a little while, and

    3 (redacted), a village across the road from our own

    4 village and house, and around 3.30 a.m., we saw the

    5 shelling of that village and we saw it on fire.

    6 Mortars fell and the houses were set on fire, and we

    7 wondered who was doing this shooting, and we had

    8 absolutely no idea what was happening.

    9 Q. Is (redacted) a Croat village?

    10 A. Yes, (redacted) and (redacted) and these are

    11 all Croat villages. And that's, we were very

    12 disturbed, and I went in to wake up my youngest son,

    13 and I said to my son, "There's shooting, get up, a

    14 shell might fall, a mortar might fall on our house."

    15 And I had two other sons, they had houses up above my

    16 own house, and they were up there, just divided by a

    17 road from the Muslims.

    18 And they were encircled, they were

    19 surrounded, and the shooting started, and shooting

    20 started at my house, and they were shooting at my

    21 husband and myself and my children, and fire broke out

    22 all over the place. And one of his, Ahmic arrived, he

    23 said, "You should flee with them, escape with them, and

    24 I will stay with the children."

    25 And that's what happened. He opened a door



  17. 1 below my house, you see, you have to pass this little

    2 gate, there's a sort of gate below the house, and I

    3 went with my relation and his uncle and we escaped

    4 towards (redacted), that is what it was called, and all our

    5 people escaped along this route.

    6 They stayed behind me. I went up, emerged

    7 from the top, the army brought out my mother-in-law.

    8 In at the top part of our village, those were Croat

    9 houses up there, and I found my mother-in-law there and

    10 two other women. I looked for my husband, my

    11 mother-in-law could not escape and I couldn't carry

    12 her.

    13 At that moment my children arrived, and they

    14 said, "(redacted) has died," they called him by his name,

    15 they said, "(redacted) has died" and I lost control.

    16 Q. You mean the father?

    17 A. Yes. And they did not dare tell my

    18 mother-in-law.

    19 Q. Tell us, how old was your mother-in-law?

    20 A. She was born in 1912, and we didn't dare tell

    21 her that her son had been killed, so I said, "Children,

    22 you run off, you escape," but I couldn't leave my

    23 mother-in-law. I lived with her for a long time, she

    24 had nobody else, she had my husband and she had a

    25 daughter, and we will be living together for 36 years



  18. 1 and I didn't have the heart to leave her there.

    2 So I told my children to flee for their

    3 lives, but that I would stay with my mother-in-law, and

    4 if they killed me what could I do. I wanted to stay

    5 with her. I couldn't leave her.

    6 So my eldest son was very close to me and he

    7 liked his grandmother very much and he kept turning

    8 back to see what we were doing, and he would go off and

    9 then return. And he said, "Don't stay there, don't

    10 stay in the house, let me, let us carry the grandmother

    11 up to some rocks which would provide shelter" and he

    12 took up his grandmother and managed to carry her away.

    13 But it began raining, and we were able to

    14 take shelter in a cave, it was a kind of a cave, and

    15 then they went towards (redacted). And a little time after

    16 that, these two, the two boys returned. And I said,

    17 "Why have you come back?" And they said, "Well, we

    18 have been blocked, because the army is coming from up

    19 there, and we have been surrounded, and we can't go

    20 anywhere anymore."

    21 Q. And you found yourself -- were you in the

    22 forest, in the mountain above your village, in the

    23 vicinity of your village?

    24 A. Yes, close to my village. We could see each

    25 of our houses because we were up above the village, and



  19. 1 so we could see our houses down below.

    2 Q. What could you see from this shelter you had

    3 taken in the forest and on the hill?

    4 A. I could see everything. I saw my husband

    5 dead, I saw my house as if it was in the palm of my

    6 hand. And when the army started coming, then they

    7 began to celebrate.

    8 Q. Which army?

    9 A. The Muslim army, we were all expelled and it

    10 was very easy to expel us, in fact, the people

    11 withdrew. They started fleeing, they had no weapons,

    12 and they said there are thousands of them coming over,

    13 this Muslim army is coming upon us. And we stayed up

    14 there on this hillside, and they said were it not for

    15 the shelling -- what was I saying?

    16 Q. You've forgotten. Tell us, you're in the

    17 wood and up on the mountainside, and you're looking

    18 down onto the village. Tell us, what did you see

    19 happening in the village? What were your neighbours

    20 and the Muslim army doing?

    21 A. The army had taken the best house. This man

    22 worked abroad and he had the best house in the village,

    23 and they burned down the -- they burned the house, it

    24 was the best house in the village.

    25 Q. Would you turn to the Judges, please?



  20. 1 A. And one of them had a harmonica and he played

    2 the harmonica and they played and danced, it was sort

    3 of a celebration for having expelled us. And we could

    4 see all this from our vantage point, from where we were

    5 in the forest.

    6 Q. What else did you see? Were other houses

    7 burning? Was there looting?

    8 A. Well, they then said they came to the

    9 conclusion that they were not allowed to burn the

    10 houses because the Croats were rich, but the best thing

    11 was to loot the house, and then once you have looted

    12 the houses you can set fire to them. Then they went

    13 about the village looting, pilfering whatever they

    14 could find.

    15 Q. What kind of things did they take from the

    16 houses?

    17 A. They took out furniture, they took food, they

    18 took everything away, whatever they came across,

    19 whatever they found, gold, money. I left my house

    20 without anything on my back. I took nothing from my

    21 house at all, just the clothes that I was wearing, and

    22 everything was left.

    23 Q. What about the livestock? Did they take the

    24 livestock away?

    25 A. What do you mean? Oh, yes, livestock, cows



  21. 1 and everything, yes they would take cows, slaughter the

    2 pigs. They took two men prisoner, two of our men, two

    3 Croats, and they dug the pigs and divided the cows up

    4 and went towards (redacted), and that's what it was like.

    5 Q. And when they had looted the village, did

    6 they set fire to the houses?

    7 A. Yes, everything was set fire to. Of my three

    8 houses, I only have one house left which is inhabited

    9 by the locals, but I have nothing any more, nobody

    10 living there, and nobody can live there, they have

    11 nowhere to go back to.

    12 Q. From the place where you stood, did you see

    13 the largest Croat village there, Grahovcici?

    14 A. Yes, then we went to the woods, we wanted to

    15 move to (redacted). Night fell while we were in the woods,

    16 and we saw Grahovcici on fire. The cows were making a

    17 terrible noise, all the people had fled, some of the

    18 cows were still in the barn. That is what we saw

    19 during the night. Then, when it dawned, it was the 8th

    20 before.

    21 Q. So it was the 9th?

    22 A. Right.

    23 Q. So was that the 9th of June?

    24 A. Yes, yes, yes. And then we withdrew into the

    25 forest, we had no place to run. So what was I saying?



  22. 1 Then we went to the woods. And (redacted) found us.

    2 He came to see his wife, to look for his wife, and then

    3 he saw us, and he said, "Let's go home." And he said,

    4 "My goodness I had such good neighbours, nobody would

    5 kill me." And (redacted) said to him, "(redacted) I don't dare go,

    6 I don't dare leave this place until something happens.

    7 I don't know, there is panic in the village, the army

    8 is out there."

    9 So we were there in the woods. Then my sons,

    10 my two sons, too, and then there was a Croat house that

    11 stood out there without any houses around it, and then

    12 we went to see whether there was some food over there,

    13 because we hadn't had anything to eat, we were all wet,

    14 we got caught in the rain. Two of my sons went there

    15 and found a loaf of bread that was packed. The people

    16 had obviously wanted to take it, but they didn't have

    17 time to take it; so my two sons brought it to us, and

    18 they brought us some cheese and they brought us a few

    19 eggs, and we had a bite to eat. (redacted) stayed there, and

    20 then we spent the night there again, until the 10th of

    21 June.

    22 Well, after daybreak on Thursday, my children

    23 were there when (redacted) went to have a drink of water, but

    24 he stood on a mine and his foot was blown up. And some

    25 shepherds saw him, and I said, "I want to surrender."



  23. 1 And I said, "Children, you surrender, too, you have not

    2 deserved to die at the hand of your neighbours. I

    3 imagine they will take you to the penitentiary in

    4 Zenica."

    5 Q. Is that the prison?

    6 A. Yes, yes, the prison, the penitentiary down

    7 there. And my children stayed on with (redacted)

    8 and I went to the village. And they treated us as if

    9 we had carried some big guns, they wanted to kill us

    10 off. And they hit (redacted) with a rifle butt here, and

    11 then they hit me on the head, and they broke my arm,

    12 and I was a bit dizzy. And they said, "Come with us

    13 and tell us where your positions are."

    14 And they were saying that they could have

    15 killed all of us up there. When I went up there with

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 Q. Is that a Muslim?

    22 A. He grabbed my son by the hair and he started

    23 hitting him. And I said, "Are you his colleague from

    24 work?" And he said, "Yes, I used to be, but I'm not

    25 anymore, and now I am going to have a showdown with



  24. 1 him."

    2 And I said, "My goodness, today he was saying

    3 that he would like to find one of his colleagues from

    4 work in order to surrender to him." So he let him go,

    5 he didn't beat him anymore, and he was crying and said,

    6 "(redacted) is dead."

    7 And this guy came and said that he would kill

    8 my son, and this other soldier jumped up and said, "No,

    9 no, no, you're not supposed to kill him," and they

    10 said, "what do we know?"

    11 And then they panicked, and he had to bring

    12 him under pressure, and when they brought him in his

    13 head was broken up here with a knife.

    14 Q. Are you talking about one of your sons, his

    15 head was broken?

    16 A. Yes, yes, that's what I'm saying. And they

    17 untied their hands, both of them, and they said one of

    18 them should carry his grandmother and the other one

    19 should carry (redacted). And this one soldier said that they

    20 should put (redacted) down. Then he said that we should turn

    21 our heads away and we turned our heads and they killed

    22 him.

    23 Q. When you say (redacted), that is the man who was

    24 wounded?

    25 A. Yes, yes, the (redacted) whose wife was with us.



  25. 1 Q. So he was wounded because he stepped on a

    2 mine, right, is that what you're saying?

    3 A. Yes, yes, that's what I'm saying. And we

    4 went to the village to take him to Zenica so he would

    5 be helped there.

    6 Q. Excuse me, could we slow down a bit? We're

    7 talking too fast. When I put a question to you, could

    8 you please wait for a while, for me to finish the

    9 question, because I'm speaking slowly on purpose so the

    10 interpreters would have enough time to interpret

    11 everything that you're saying.

    12 A. Yes, but I get carried away, you know.

    13 Q. You know, it's these people who talk that you

    14 hear through the headphones, but just try to relax and

    15 we will continue slowly. Please don't concentrate on

    16 what you hear here in your headphones, concentrate on

    17 my questions. So now I'm going to put some questions

    18 to you.

    19 At that point in time, you had two of your

    20 sons with you. Do not mention their names. Two of

    21 your sons were with you. Where was your third son?

    22 A. I don't understand this. This is some kind

    23 of foreign talk.

    24 MR. NOBILO: The channel has changed.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: All right. We're going fix



  26. 1 that for you.

    2 A. I hear this foreign talk and it bothers me.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Do you hear me?

    4 A. Yes, I do, all of it.

    5 JUDGE JORDA: When you answer, look at the

    6 Judges, please. Try to relax, take your time when you

    7 answer.

    8 A. Fine. Fine. This really bothered me so --

    9 I'm terribly sorry. I'm sorry.

    10 JUDGE JORDA: But you can speak; right? You

    11 know how to speak. Okay. Get your wits together and

    12 in a little while we'll take a pause.

    13 MR. NOBILO: Thank you.

    14 Q. Please, when you're fumbling with the buttons

    15 in front of you, then you get this foreign language

    16 into your headphones because you change these buttons

    17 in front of you. So if it happens again, just tell us

    18 and we'll help you.

    19 All right. So you were in captivity and two

    20 of your sons were in captivity, and they killed this

    21 wounded man and you weren't supposed to watch.

    22 A. No, no, no. We could not watch.

    23 Q. And there was shooting all over?

    24 A. No, no, no, we didn't dare look. No, no, no.

    25 Q. Now, could you calmly tell us about what



  27. 1 happen to your sons right in front of you, those who

    2 were taken prisoner by the BH army? Explain that to

    3 us, please.

    4 A. Well, they separated them from us

    5 immediately. They put us into a house that used to be

    6 a Croat house, and I found, over there, some of our

    7 other villagers who could not run away, and my children

    8 were separated from me. It was already night time by

    9 then, and they took them to a Muslim village, and they

    10 beat them black and blue, as we would say, black and

    11 blue.

    12 Then I found these people from my village,

    13 (redacted) and his wife (redacted), and (redacted), and

    14 (redacted).

    15 Q. And (redacted)?

    16 A. Yes, yes. (redacted) was there too.

    17 Q. Tell me, were these people old and disabled?

    18 A. Yes. All of them old people who could not

    19 run, who had pain in their legs, and they couldn't run

    20 away with the other people.

    21 Q. And what happened after that?

    22 A. I found (redacted), who was beaten up there, and his

    23 ribs were broken. (redacted) came. I mean, he had a shop,

    24 and he knew that he would have money on him, he

    25 provoked him and said all sorts of things to him, and



  28. 1 he hid this money into his cap.

    2 Q. Are you referring to (redacted)?

    3 A. Yes, I'm referring to (redacted). And he had

    4 2.800; that's what he said.

    5 Q. Two thousand eight hundred of what?

    6 A. Of money. I mean, (redacted). So he took

    7 it all with him. He said that he would go and bring

    8 the Mujahedin to slaughter him.

    9 Then this other one jumped out of the

    10 window. He couldn't really jump that far, so his

    11 collar bone broke and also his ribs were broken. I

    12 found him there in the house all broken up like that.

    13 Then when night fell, then they took us down

    14 there to their village, their Muslim village, towards a

    15 house. Then my children came, and they had to carry

    16 their grandmother again. Then we came to a garage, and

    17 then they lined us up in front of the garage and they

    18 said, "Why don't you all hold hands now and we're going

    19 to execute all of you."

    20 Q. And they used weapons?

    21 A. Yes, they used weapons. And we realised what

    22 our fate was. And it's not that I felt sorry -- I

    23 mean, I was there with my two sons, and if they were

    24 going to get killed, and then I thought, "Well,

    25 whatever." I mean, my husband had been killed too, so



  29. 1 what good was it for me to go on living?

    2 So they opened this garage and we walked into

    3 the garage, and there was some kind of fuel in the

    4 garage. It was suffocating. It was awful. And -- and

    5 we actually spent the night there. They closed the

    6 door and they kept us there.

    7 The next day, at around 10.00 or 11.00 they

    8 opened up a bit, and we one by one we started getting

    9 out, and we said we were feeling sick, all of us. And

    10 we were all getting out, and there was a bit of water

    11 there and we managed to wash our faces.

    12 Q. What did they say they would do to you?

    13 A. Well, they said that -- they were saying that

    14 they wanted to kill us. And when I went out to get

    15 some water, I heard one of the soldiers saying that

    16 they would kill us, but I didn't say anything. One of

    17 them said that he would save us. And then it was

    18 Friday and the Muslims came to this mosque of theirs

    19 there. And then they were there at the mosque, and

    20 they would not spare them their lives. And then their

    21 colleague of his from work came, this was 5.00 in the

    22 evening, and he told my son to get up, and he said, "Get

    23 up," and then they both got up, and then I said, "Now

    24 what?" And he closed the door, and then this woman was

    25 out there, (redacted), and this (redacted), this



  30. 1 colleague of my son's from work, he said "No, I don't

    2 want to kill this one."

    3 Then this other one, they took him away and

    4 they didn't let him go across the wall, they took him

    5 to the garden and then they killed him out there.

    6 Then I heard this rifle shot but we couldn't

    7 move, we couldn't do a thing.

    8 Then a taxi came. "Where are these two?"

    9 And they said, "No, no one's there." Then when I got

    10 out a soldier was carrying a pair of boots, and he was

    11 saying his -- his feet are going to get warm now.

    12 Q. So did they kill the other son?

    13 A. Yes, yes. This other one, (redacted), yes, killed

    14 him too, yes. He said, "He can keep his feet warm

    15 tonight, his pig feet warm tonight."

    16 And they brought this Kombi, and they had

    17 these green bands on their heads, and they said, "Get

    18 in to the Kombi," and we got into the Kombi, and they

    19 said that they would kill everybody up there. Then

    20 they were talking about it all the time, how they would

    21 kill all of us, and they said, "No, we're not going to

    22 use any bullets. Why would we waste bullets on them?"

    23 And this Muslim who represented the civilian defence,

    24 he stood in front of the Kombi and said, "No, you're

    25 not going to kill all of them." Then he said, "Okay,



  31. 1 come on out and move towards Susanj." And, "They're

    2 more your folks down there." Then we went down there

    3 and then --

    4 Q. Just a minute, please. Before we reach

    5 Susanj, could we just stop for a moment? Your two sons

    6 practically were killed in front of the garage where

    7 you were; is that correct?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Now I'm going to read out to you a list of

    10 persons from your village, and I'm going to ask you

    11 what happened to these people. Listen to me

    12 carefully. Do not say, "This is my son," or, "This is

    13 my husband," or whatever. (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    1. (redacted).
    2. All of these men and women, what happened to them?

    19 A. All of them were killed, all of them.

    20 Q. Your village?

    21 A. Yes, all of them were killed. All of them

    22 were my neighbours. I knew all of them. All of them

    23 were killed.

    24 Q. And now tell us, you came to the village of

    25 Susanj. What happened to those old disabled people who



  32. 1 you had already mentioned when you spoke before? What

    2 did you see there?

    3 A. When we entered the house we came upon

    4 crying, and they were all executed.

    5 Q. How many coffins did you see?

    6 A. There were about 19 coffins. On the next day

    7 it was a Saturday and that was when the funeral took

    8 place, and I attended the funeral. My son was there.

    9 He had died too.

    10 Q. So the third son -- your third son had died

    11 as well, was killed as well?

    12 A. Yes. But this one died in the fighting as

    13 opposed to the other two sons. Yes, that's right. And

    14 he found himself there. That was where he was, and

    15 that was where he was buried. And they came from

    16 Zenica, the people, and that was how it was.

    17 Q. After the village of Susanj in the Zenica

    18 municipality, you spent some time in the village of

    19 Stranjane?

    20 A. We spent ten days there in Susanj, and after

    21 the funeral we went back, but we were not able to stay,

    22 we couldn't sleep the whole night, and they said that

    23 we ought to be slaughtered, and that we were their

    24 biggest target, and that is when I withdrew and I went

    25 to Stranjane that with my mother-in-law. I went to



  33. 1 stay with a friend.

    2 Q. In Stranjane was there looting going on

    3 there?

    4 A. Well, I don't know. When I got there, for a

    5 time there wasn't, but then incidents broke out there

    6 as well. And as they had looted everything that

    7 existed down below, then they did the same there. If

    8 anybody had a cow -- they would come in the evening and

    9 wanted to throw a bomb amongst children -- and they

    10 said, "Give us your cow." "We're going to kill your

    11 children with a bomb." (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (redacted)

    16 (redacted)

    17 (redacted)

    18 (redacted)

    19 Q. And in these events you lost your husband and

    20 three sons?

    21 A. Yes. In those events I lost my husband and

    22 three sons, and my mother-in-law died as well. A

    23 soldier hit her here with his boot, he kicked her in

    24 the back. She was an old woman and a very slight

    25 woman, and she died from the result of that kick a



  34. 1 month and a half later. She had five daughters, and I

    2 lost my husband and my children.

    3 Q. And the property you had, your house and the

    4 tractors and the farming machinery that you had, what

    5 happened?

    6 A. Well, just -- just the walls remain

    7 standing. Everything else has been looted. There's

    8 nothing else there. There's nowhere for me to go back,

    9 just the walls. Sometimes they even place an explosive

    10 under houses. So I haven't got anywhere to go back

    11 to.

    12 Q. Of the 5.000 or 6.000 Croats who lived in

    13 your parish, how many Croats live there today?

    14 A. There's not a single one. How can they

    15 live? Because this was the largest Croatian village,

    16 now there is nobody left. In Miletici there is nobody

    17 left. In Orahovice there is nobody. Now in

    18 Brajkovici, the priest returned to Brajkovici and

    19 perhaps three or four other individuals, but otherwise,

    20 there's nobody there any more. Of the 5.000 or 6.000

    21 that used to live there, we've all gone away from there

    22 or been killed.

    23 MR. NOBILO: That is all, Mr. President. We

    24 have completed our examination-in-chief.

    25 JUDGE JORDA: What number does the map have?



  35. 1 THE REGISTRAR: It's D462, and it's a

    2 confidential exhibit.

    3 JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kehoe? Witness DR, we're

    4 now going to give the floor to the representative from

    5 the Office of the Prosecutor. That's the procedure in

    6 a court.

    7 Cross-examined by Mr. Kehoe:

    8 MR. KEHOE: Yes, Your Honours. I'll be very

    9 brief. It's not just going to be -- I would like to

    10 ask a question about the municipality. Counsel, should

    11 we go into private session on that? I look for

    12 guidance from you on that issue. To talk about the

    13 witness's municipality without mentioning the village.

    14 I will be guided by your instructions.

    15 MR. NOBILO: Okay.

    16 MR. KEHOE: I'm sorry?

    17 MR. NOBILO: If I have understood you

    18 correctly, we're going to speak about the municipality

    19 where the village was located. Well then, that's not

    20 necessary because it's a small village in a big

    21 municipality.

    22 JUDGE JORDA: All right. There's your

    23 answer.

    24 MR. KEHOE: That's fine. My concern was in

    25 the spirit of caution. I just thought I'd raise that.



  36. 1 Q. If I may, witness, DR, my name is Greg

    2 Kehoe. I work for the office of the Prosecutor. My

    3 two colleagues, to my immediate right is Mr. Harmon,

    4 and to his right is Mr. Andrew Cayley.

    5 Witness DR, what municipality was your

    6 village in?

    7 A. Travnik.

    8 Q. And would it --

    9 A. It belonged to Travnik. It was the

    10 municipality.

    11 Q. And would it be fair to say, without

    12 mentioning the name of your village, please, that it

    13 was relatively close to the Zenica municipality; is

    14 that right?

    15 A. Well, Travnik and Zenica, they weren't that

    16 near or that far away, actually, by bus. I don't know

    17 the exact number of kilometres, I never counted them.

    18 Zenica was another municipality and Travnik was a

    19 separate municipality. I was from the municipality of

    20 Travnik myself.

    21 Q. Now, Witness DR, you talked to us about your

    22 life in your village, the camaraderie and the spirit of

    23 co-existence you had with your Bosnian Muslim

    24 neighbours and how you celebrated together on occasions

    25 such as sending your respective sons off to the JNA.



  37. 1 Now, Witness DR, did that spirit of camaraderie

    2 continue for quite some time prior to these events on

    3 the 8th of June, 1993?

    4 A. Well, it continued up until the year when the

    5 war broke out and what have you else, everything that

    6 took place afterwards. Let me tell you one thing quite

    7 clearly and honestly; the elections, as soon as the

    8 elections were held there was some distrust between

    9 ourselves and the Muslims, and as they were close to

    10 me, they always thought about the fact that Bosnia

    11 would belong to them and that there wouldn't be any

    12 more of us, and this mistrust began to fester and we

    13 were not as close as we had formerly been.

    14 Q. Witness DR, there were no attacks on your

    15 village prior to the 8th of June, 1993; were there?

    16 A. No, no attacks of any kind. There was

    17 nothing before that. They were in their village, the

    18 Muslims were in their village, and our own people the

    19 Croats were in our village, but they would talk

    20 together or they would talk to one another and so on,

    21 but there were no attacks, there was nothing before

    22 that. We were surprised by it. I didn't think they

    23 would kill my children, because we were not on bad

    24 terms. I don't know what happened. I have actually no

    25 idea what happened.



  38. 1 Q. And until that time, just taking your words,

    2 Witness DR, you were on good terms with your Muslim

    3 neighbours until the 8th of June, 1993?

    4 A. Yes. We were not on bad terms, as I say.

    5 Q. And, in fact, Witness DR, at least some of

    6 your neighbours, your Muslim neighbours helped you

    7 during this very, very trying incident; didn't they?

    8 A. Nobody wanted to help us at all. I cried out

    9 when they arrested my children and when they -- when I

    10 saw that they were going to kill them. I said, "Is

    11 there anybody older here? Let them go to the army with

    12 you, but just leave them, let them live. Leave them

    13 alive," but nobody wanted to help.

    14 MR. KEHOE: Well, let me just go into private

    15 session for a moment and mention a name. I think it

    16 would probably be the safer course.

    17 JUDGE JORDA: Yes, go ahead.

    18 (Private session)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)



  39. 1

    2

    3

    4

    5

    6

    7

    8

    9

    10

    11

    12

    13 Pages 16002 to 16023 redacted – in closed session

    14

    15

    16

    17

    18

    19

    20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

    21 at 4.40 p.m. to be reconvened on Friday,

    22 the 11th day of December, 1998 at 10.00 a.m.

    23

    24

    25