1 Friday, 11 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. May I remind you that the

7 affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence still applies.

8 Now, Ms. Residovic, you were in the course of your questions.

9 WITNESS: WITNESS M-017 [Resumed]

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic [Continued]:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. M-017. You remember that

14 yesterday we authenticated the statements that you have given over several

15 occasions to the investigators of the ICTY; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Considering your age in the year 2001, would it be correct if I

18 said that you haven't served the conscription military service in the

19 Republic of Macedonia; is that correct?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Until then, you were not a member of any forces in the police of

22 the Republic of Macedonia; is that correct?

23 A. No, no. You're correct.

24 Q. At that time, you did not have any particular knowledge about the

25 types and makes of arms that are used in the armies or in the police; is

1 that correct?

2 A. That is correct. Even today I don't. I don't know. I cannot

3 tell among police weapons. As I said earlier, I'm not an expert at that.

4 (redacted)

5 Q. Thank you very much. Until then, you had just seen the regular

6 police in the Republic of Macedonia that was conducting its business and

7 was wearing the normal blue uniform; is that correct?

8 A. That is correct.

9 Q. Only when the conflict in the regions of Tetova, Kumanovo, and

10 several other regions started, only then you could have seen that the

11 police are also wearing camouflage uniforms; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, it is.

13 Q. You saw and you knew at that time that also the members of the

14 army, the regular army forces, as well as the reserve forces are also

15 wearing camouflage uniforms; is that correct?

16 A. I would kindly ask you not to ask me about things in Kumanovo. I

17 would only speak about things that occurred in Ljuboten. I can only tell

18 you that before the war and after the war they came there every day, and I

19 know very well what kind of uniforms they were wearing. So we better

20 concentrate on Ljuboten and leave aside the others.

21 Q. Mr. M-017, maybe you failed to understand me. I was not going to

22 ask you and am not going to ask you about the events outside of the area

23 where you were living, but I'm only asking you is it correct that while

24 you were watching TV or other media, you could have seen also army

25 members, members of the army of Macedonia wearing camouflage uniforms; is

1 that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. At that time, in 2001, you couldn't make a clear difference

4 between the camouflage uniforms worn by certain units of either the army

5 or the police; is that correct?

6 A. No, that is not correct. We could tell very well the difference

7 between the army and the police uniforms.

8 Q. Considering the fact that you haven't served in either army or the

9 police, you personally did not know the structure of the army and the

10 police of the Republic of Macedonia; is that correct?

11 A. I didn't know the structure, that is true. But you told me

12 yourself that I have seen them on television; therefore, I can tell

13 between a policeman and a military.

14 Q. At that time, considering the fact that (redacted)

15 (redacted), you surely didn't know what were the competences of

16 certain ministries and certain bodies in the Republic of Macedonia; is

17 that correct?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. Also, you did not know what bodies pursuant to the law in the

20 Republic of Macedonia are in charge of investigation.

21 A. Yes, yes. Under the law, yes. The law is very good. You may be

22 14 years and eight months and they can send to you gaol, so I think this

23 is a very good law.

24 Q. I would like to ask you, Mr. M-017, to answer the question I'm

25 asking and, of course, with the leave of the Judge, you could also provide

1 additional comments if that is necessary.

2 Tell me, then, were you aware who was the body superior to the

3 Judges and Prosecutors who have issued the documents that the

4 distinguished colleague, Prosecutor, has shown you yesterday?

5 A. What kind of documents are you saying? That we were in prison or

6 about the statements I've given?

7 Q. Maybe I was not precise enough. The distinguished colleague,

8 Prosecutor, has shown you various acts signed by Judges and Prosecutors in

9 the courts and in the Prosecutor's office of the Republic of Macedonia.

10 So I'm asking you: Is it correct at that time you did not know who is the

11 superior body or a person above the Judges and Prosecutors in the Republic

12 of Macedonia?

13 A. No. No, I didn't, either then or even now. That is something

14 which doesn't interest me. I mean, I don't have any education as to be

15 aware. And to tell you the truth, I'm not even interested.

16 Q. Then you did not know which bodies are the police -- the court

17 police and the guards in the prison affiliated to. You said something

18 about them answering the question of the learned colleague, Prosecutor.

19 If you fail to understand me, I will repeat it.

20 A. [No interpretation]

21 Q. Is it correct that in 2001, you did not know to which bodies are

22 attached the policemen in the courts and in the Sutka prison and who is a

23 superior body or a person to them. Is it true that you did not know this

24 then?

25 A. That's correct, I didn't.

1 Q. Mr. M-017, is it correct that on the 10th of August, 2001, not far

2 from Ljuboten, at Ljubotenski Bacila locality, a mine caused the death of

3 eight members of the army of Republic of Macedonia and that several

4 members were injured?

5 A. Yes, we heard on television.

6 Q. Before that date, you will agree with me that because of the

7 clashes taking place in certain regions, the army of the Republic of

8 Macedonia has deployed its units in the region around the village of

9 Ljuboten. Were you aware of that?

10 A. May I express my opinion, Your Honours? Am I allowed to make a

11 comment on that?

12 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, if it is talking about that question.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Counsel is saying that on the

14 day when the mine went off, the army and the police encircled Ljuboten.

15 This is not correct. Two months before the mine incident, the police and

16 the army were there and they had encircled Ljuboten, and they know this

17 very well. She shouldn't tell me that they came when the mine exploded.

18 I may tell you that they were there two months in advance, even

19 earlier than that. They killed a cow. They couldn't even graze their

20 livestock because of them, and this happened two months ago. We were

21 worried since then.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. M-017. But maybe you haven't heard my

24 question properly. I have just asked you this.

25 A. I heard your question very well.

1 Q. Whether a lot earlier, because of clashes in other regions, the

2 army of the Republic of Macedonia has deployed forces around the village.

3 You have just answered that that was two months early. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes. But I want to express something, if Your Honours allow me.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are saying that they encircled

7 Ljuboten because of the incident. Okay, then. Then why did they mistreat

8 us, its inhabitants? Why did they use tanks and heavy artillery guns?

9 Why did they train their barrels towards the village and not towards the

10 mountain? I think that they did it deliberately. Even without the mine

11 incidents, they wanted to wipe out the village and to destroy all of us,

12 and I'm telling that what you are putting to me is not at all true.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Thank you.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Can I indicate that it would be more helpful if you

16 listen to the questions put to you by Ms. Residovic and answered those

17 questions. You don't have to argue the whole case because the process

18 here will be for Ms. Residovic to ask you questions, then Mr. Apostolski,

19 and then Ms. Motoike will come back and ask you further questions. And by

20 that time, what you know will be able to emerge.

21 It will help us and make it a lot quicker if you listen to the

22 questions and respond to those. If you can understand that. We'll get to

23 the same end result but more quickly.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Mr. M-017, when, on the 10th at the Ljubotenski Bacila locality,

2 the killing of the Republic of Macedonia took place, on that date, in

3 Ljuboten, you were present when one shell has killed a boy. Is that

4 correct?

5 A. That is correct. I have a lot to say, if you want me to, about

6 that.

7 Q. Tell me: Is it correct if I say that on that date the persons who

8 participated in the placing of the mine have entered the village?

9 A. No, that is not true. I can tell you, in full responsibility, if

10 there is any witness to say that, let him or her come here and tell you

11 that there was someone who placed the mine and entered Ljuboten.

12 Q. Is it correct, sir, that on that date, on the Friday and

13 particularly on the Saturday, a large number of the inhabitants of the

14 village of Ljuboten left the village and went to Skopje? Are you familiar

15 with this?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. You and your family stayed in the village; is that correct?

18 A. We did. We didn't leave, because -- because we were afraid of

19 being maltreated. My first cousin told me that they had been mistreated

20 at the police checkpoint. That's why we decided to remain at home.

21 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-017, that the remaining men in the village

22 have organised to monitor the situation; and if needed, to defend if

23 something would happen?

24 A. No, no. We were not organised in any form. My family was only

25 worried where to find a shelter, in what basement, so that we could feel

1 more secure and not be killed from the shelling, because we had children

2 there with us. How can you fight having children and women by your side?

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted) is that correct?

6 A. He didn't invite us. We went there on our own. He came there,

7 too. It was not that he invited us or we decided to go there by

8 ourselves. I don't think this is of any importance.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Motoike.

10 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour, I'm sorry for the interruption but I

11 believe we are still in public session, and there was a mention -- can we

12 move into private session, please.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a protected witness?

14 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour, perhaps we could move into private

15 session.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would also like to

17 ask to go into a private session because of the questions will be relate

18 to the identity of this person and other persons as well.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. I just don't see any problem with had a

20 has been said so far. The mention of some familial relationship doesn't

21 identify either party, but we will go into private session.

22 [Private session]

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1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. At the moment when you heard someone speaking Macedonian, you were

5 in the basement together with the other men; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. Women and children were in another house, as you have explained;

8 is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct. But it was also my father and some other

10 men. There weren't only women there. This shows that we didn't think of

11 deliberately separating from women. It's simply because we couldn't get

12 into the same basement all of us. That's why we stayed in two different

13 basements. But I think that you are simply trying to prove that there was

14 some armed organisation going on that day in Ljuboten.

15 I'm only trying to explain to you what I went through, and I feel

16 very bad to have to speak about that. But I want to describe the picture

17 as it really was at the time. Women were crying, children were crying,

18 the elderly were upset because of the firing and everything that was going

19 on. I think are you not clear on what happened in Ljuboten that day.

20 Q. Thank you. You -- I apologise.

21 You were shown and you have recognised a picture of Atulla Qaili

22 who was with you in the basement; is that correct?

23 A. Yes. I could recognise his picture even after 100 years.

24 Q. You don't know when and who took this photograph; is that correct?

25 A. No, I don't know that. This question is not about me. Maybe

1 those who committed the crime can tell you who did that to him and not

2 tell you that I had weapons. As I told you yesterday, had I had a weapon,

3 I would have fought, and there would have been someone wounded from the

4 ranks of the police.

5 Q. Yesterday, Mr. M-017, on page 10 of the unofficial transcript, you

6 said that the police entered the basement in a way that a normal human

7 being shouldn't use. Do you remember having stated that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So the police entered the basement. Are you testifying about

10 that?

11 A. Could you please clarify? What do you mean by "did the police

12 enter the basement"? Of course, they entered the basement.

13 Q. You then stated that police came and many times shot in the

14 direction of window; is that correct?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. And that after that Muharem Ramadani has shown the white cloth; is

17 that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. If I then understood correctly, the police was already inside the

20 basement when the others were shooting at the window and when Muharem

21 Ramadani showed the piece of cloth of white colour?

22 A. They are trying to discredit us in all possible ways, but what I

23 have experienced I know for a fact. When the police entered the yard,

24 they fired shots in our direction. There were no policemen at that point

25 inside the basement. They were shooting in the direction of the basement;

1 and as a result, we had to come out. The later person, whom you

2 mentioned, he showed, waved a white cloth, a white towel as a sign that we

3 were surrendering to the police.

4 Q. It means that when you were answering my colleague's questions,

5 you did not explain the sequence of events in the proper way; is that

6 correct?

7 A. Could you please repeat what I said yesterday? If it is not

8 correct, then I will tell that you it is not correct. But I'm not clear

9 what you're referring.

10 Q. Mr. M-017, I have just told you. You said that, first, police

11 went into the basement; that after that, they shot in the direction of

12 your window, namely, the window of the basement; and that after that,

13 Muharem Ramadani showed the white piece of cloth. And this is why I am

14 now asking you whether it was a mistake, or did you incorrectly indicate

15 the sequence of events when you have answered my colleague's questions in

16 this way?

17 A. I already told you, as soon as they entered the yard through the

18 main gate, the police I mean, they shot several gunshots in the direction

19 of the window. At the moment, there were no policemen inside the

20 basement. When they took us out from the basement through the basement

21 window, there were still no policemen in the basement; afterwards, if they

22 were inside or not, that I don't know. But maybe the accused can help you

23 on that.

24 It is not a problem for me to tell you the sequence of events

25 every now and again, but I hope you understand me.

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I completely understand that the

2 witness, because of his own experience, can be not willing to answer my

3 question; but considering that for almost three or four times in his

4 answers he involves my client, I would like to you ask to once again to

5 ask the witness to answer my questions.

6 JUDGE PARKER: At the moment, it is not apparent that the witness

7 is trying to avoid your questions. You have one clear mind understanding

8 of certain things; he has a different one. So his answers do not coincide

9 with yours. I have looked back at the transcript yesterday, and it is

10 really the way questions were asked that led him to say that police came

11 and entered the basement; then it appears that he went back and told in

12 more detail the process. And it was in the course of that he says police

13 fired into the windows of the basement, then we put out the white flag,

14 and then made to come out the window.

15 So I think it is a confusion rather than some deliberate avoiding

16 or giving of false answers.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Q. Mr. M-017, we would now go on to something different that I would

19 like to ask you.

20 Would you agree with me if I were to say that there are certain

21 events that a man as well as you must remember very well for a long time

22 and maybe for the entire life. Is it correct?

23 A. Yes. But tell me what you're referring to, to which man, and what

24 did he do?

25 Q. I will ask you immediately.

1 At the question of the learned colleague, you mentioned that when

2 you got out of the basement, the persons that took you out put the knives

3 under your throat and said that they were going to slaughter all of you.

4 That is on the unofficial page of the transcript, 16, lines 17 and 18. Do

5 you remember saying that?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. That is a very severe experience that might not be forgotten

8 easily. Is that so?

9 A. Yes. Seven years have past, and I still remember clearly; and

10 even if 200 years passed by, I can still come and testify about this

11 event.

12 Q. Thank you. You would agree with me if I were to stay that the

13 majority of the Ljuboten citizens are believers and that they -- they

14 believe in their faith and in the mosque that -- to which they express

15 their faith in a manner prescribed with the Muslim regulations. Is that

16 so?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. On the question of my colleague yesterday, you also said that the

19 persons who took you out from the basement asked whether someone was

20 hiding in the mosque and some of them entered the mosque in the uniforms,

21 which would also be a situation that you would remember very well; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You testified yesterday that on several occasions you were giving

25 statements to the investigators of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal, but in

1 none of those statements you have never mentioned these two events.

2 Yesterday was the first time that you spoke about it. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, it is true. But it's not that I didn't want to speak about

4 that. There are many things that I want to speak about here. I have more

5 arguments on what they did.

6 Q. I apologise. Are we in a closed session?

7 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would -- if we are not, I would

9 like to ask to move into private session now.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

11 [Private session]

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20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. So let me repeat that.

24 With this circle, you marked the place at which you were lying

25 face down when you were brought in front of the Brace's House; is that

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And for the entire time, until, as you said, you fainted, you had

4 your T-shirts over your heads?

5 A. Are you returning me back to an earlier event? I already

6 explained. I was conscious up to this house, Brace's House; then I

7 fainted because of the savage beating. So I really wonder how can you ask

8 me or question what I'm saying to you, trying to avoid what really

9 happened. I don't really understand.

10 Q. Okay. Thank you.

11 JUDGE PARKER: May I interrupt to point out that page 24, line 21,

12 the witness was shown photograph P20, not P50. Thank you.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That was a mistake in the

14 transcript and maybe I misspoke when I said it.

15 Q. Yesterday, when answering my colleague's question, you said that

16 then you saw just the face of the minister. That is recorded on the page

17 21 -- 28, line 1 of the transcript. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask that the

20 witness is shown his statement of the 30th of March, 2003, 65 ter 1D 26,

21 page 1D 0318, paragraph 6. And I'm asking, since we're in a public

22 session, that it is not necessary -- no identification could be performed

23 according to this picture.

24 Macedonian number is 1D 0324. I apologise. Identification is

25 possible, so I ask that the document is not shown to the public.

1 In this statement, you have said: "I have seen around the vehicle

2 many soldiers in various uniforms. The only uniformed person whose name I

3 know was the Minister of the MOI, Mr. Boskoski."

4 Is that what is written here?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So your statement before the Court is not identical to what you

7 have stated several times to the investigators of the Prosecutor; is that

8 correct?

9 A. I don't understand your approach. You are making me rather

10 nervous, I would say. You cannot tell me what I saw. I did see it. You

11 know nothing of what happened. I was there. I was an eye-witness.

12 Q. Considering your previous statements and the things you testified

13 about before this Court, I wish to tell you and I wish that you confirm:

14 Is it correct that actually, considering all circumstances that you

15 described on that day, you didn't see Mr. Boskoski at all?

16 A. I already recounted what I saw yesterday, and you're still telling

17 me that I didn't. I think I explained in detail how I saw the Minister.

18 Q. Thank you. I will ask you now about something different.

19 A. Yes. You can ask me and you can keep me here 200 days, and I can

20 give you the answers I know.

21 Q. Thank you very much for this, but I think we will finish with you

22 very soon.

23 Mr. M-017, yesterday, you were asked and you were shown your

24 statement that you have given before the Juvenile Judge on the 15th of

25 August, 2001; is that correct?

1 A. Can you please repeat your question? I apologise, but I'm not

2 clear about that.

3 Q. Yesterday, my learned colleague, Prosecutor, has shown you, read

4 segments from the statement that you have given to the Juvenile Judge on

5 the 15th of August, 2001; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that is correct.

7 Q. During that statement, your counsel was present there; is that

8 correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In that statement, you never mentioned that you have seen

11 Mr. Boskoski; is that correct?

12 A. I always mentioned in my statement and I'm repeating it that I saw

13 him, and I described to you how I managed to see him even though we have

14 our T-shirts on. If you want me to, I can repeat it.

15 Q. Also, you said yesterday that you have given statements to the

16 representatives of international organisations. In the statement you have

17 given on the 5th of January, 2002 to the representatives of the OSCE, you

18 also never mentioned Mr. Boskoski. Is that correct.

19 A. Yes. We didn't mention that, because we were afraid. You know it

20 yourself. You came and visited us. We were afraid that they might do

21 something to us even after that, because they were the leaders of the

22 state. They are still in the government, so we still don't feel safe.

23 What I went through I did go through, and I'm not afraid of saying to you

24 what I experienced.

25 Q. So, if I understood you correctly, you were afraid of the

1 representatives of the OSCE and of the International Red Cross, and you

2 didn't dare mention the name of Mr. Boskoski to them?

3 A. No. I wasn't afraid of them. I am afraid of the people who are

4 in power, who were there and who are still in power now. I'm not afraid

5 of the OSCE or the International Red Cross because they are proper human

6 beings. But where we live I can say that the Macedonians are not what

7 they should be.

8 Q. Despite that, in the statement that I have mentioned, the 5th of

9 January, 2002, given to OSCE, you are not mentioning Mr. Boskoski; is that

10 correct?

11 A. That is correct. I didn't mention. That is a fact, but I'm

12 mentioning him now.

13 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-017, that you, as you just said, since you

14 were mistrusting Macedonian authorities and those who are in power even

15 today, you never wanted to go to the police of Macedonia and give a

16 statement about the event.

17 A. If I went to the police, then they would again send us to prison.

18 You know it very well, what kind of people they are.

19 Q. You never, probably because of the reasons that you have just

20 mentioned, you never filed criminal charges against the persons that you

21 allegedly saw in your village or in the police station Mirkovci; is that

22 correct?

23 A. From what I understood of your question, I'm not a court to

24 sentence people. This is the duty of the institutions that deal with such

25 things. Usually, the guilty people run away. They go to foreign

1 countries, and you are asking me why haven't you sentenced them. These

2 people who were in power should have sentenced them and not allowed them

3 to flee.

4 Q. But I will ask you again to answer the question I am asking. You

5 personally never filed criminal charges. On your behalf, your counsel

6 never filed criminal charges and neither have any member of your family

7 against persons who allegedly, persons you recognised, and you never

8 wanted to give police any statement about the events that took place in

9 the village. Is that correct?

10 A. It is correct. Of course, it is correct. And I told you I'm

11 not -- it's not up to me to file charges. They know very well what

12 happened. Why should I file criminal charges? The Minister himself

13 should have filed criminal charges against the perpetrators, but he was

14 one of them. That's why I'm here today, to tell you the truth.

15 Q. You said that from the police station in Mirkovci, you were

16 transferred to the city hospital in Skopje; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. While you were inside the police station, the police would summon

19 doctors to -- invite doctors two times to examine you and the other people

20 who were with you inside the police station; is that correct?

21 A. Is it for you to say this or for us? We were there.

22 Q. Would you please answer. Was -- did the police invite doctors to

23 examine you and did the doctors come and examine you inside the police

24 station Mirkovci?

25 A. I told you yesterday, but I will repeat it today. There is a lot

1 I might say, actually, but I don't think I'm being given the possibility

2 to recount in every detail what really happened.

3 The fact is that we, not the police, called the doctor because we

4 were in a very, very bad state, and we asked the doctors to come and

5 administer help to us. But instead of bringing doctors to us there, they

6 kept beating us; and then they forced us. After being beaten black and

7 blue, I was almost dead. They took me to hospital in that condition.

8 And, as you well know, one goes to hospital to get treatment, to get -- to

9 feel better, and not to be further maltreated. And there we were again

10 beaten and kicked. Thank you.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, are we in public or

12 private session?

13 JUDGE PARKER: Public.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I will ask that we move into a

15 private session.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.

17 [Private session]

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1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

4 Ms. Residovic has completed her questioning. We must now have the

5 half-hour break. We will resume at 11.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.

9 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

10 Your Honours, I will ask questions to the witness, M-017, today

11 which my learned colleague I think failed to ask.

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski:

13 Q. [Interpretation], Mr. M-017, I'm Antonio Apostolski. I'm the lead

14 counsel to Mr. Johan Tarculovski with my colleague, co-counsel Jasmina

15 Zivkovic. I will ask you questions regarding the events in the village of

16 Ljuboten during the period between 10th and 12th of August, 2001.

17 May we begin, Mr. M-017?

18 A. Yes.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, before

20 my colleague goes to question the witness, I got the message that a part

21 of the sentence has been noted that I'm mentioned before asking for a

22 closed session. And I would like to have that part erased because it

23 uncover the identity of the person. Thank you.

24 JUDGE PARKER: I'm a little confused there what you mean.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we go into a closed session,

1 because I would make the same mistake again.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, closed session.

3 [Closed session]

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19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Is it correct that the state of Macedonia provided your education

23 in your native Albanian language free of charge?

24 A. All the expenses related to education are paid by ourselves. I

25 don't think that the state provides any help to anyone; not only to me,

1 but to the entire population in Ljuboten.

2 Q. Was your family paying for you in order for you to be educated in

3 the school?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You testified that your family has two houses; a new one and an

6 old one. That is correct, right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Both of the houses are close to each other; is that correct?

9 A. No, that's not correct. They are about 400 or 500 metres apart.

10 Q. In the old house, you have a basement; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In the new house, you have a basement; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. On Friday, August 10, 2001, you woke up early in the morning; is

15 that correct?

16 A. We didn't sleep at all from Friday to Sunday because we were very

17 upset, very frightened, because of the shellings.

18 Q. Could you tell me when did you wake up on the Friday, 10th of

19 August, 2001?

20 A. I would say around 7.00.

21 Q. You must remember what was the time that the shelling started on

22 Friday --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The shooting.

24 A. Shelling, too, not only shooting. I have told you about the

25 incident with the six-year-old child - I will not mention his name - which

1 makes it clear that there were shootings and shellings on the Friday.

2 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You surely could show me where the shells fell.

4 A. Yes. I could tell you where. You would not be able to tell me

5 because you were not there, but I was there and I know. There were shells

6 falling. One of the shells fell near the mosque. Another one fell at the

7 house of a person. Do you want me to mention his name or should we go to

8 private session?

9 JUDGE PARKER: You can mention his name.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Another shell fell at the house of

11 Ismail Mamuti, whom we call Haxhi Mala. There were many other shells that

12 fell that day. One at the house of Haxhi Nuredin and Nuredin Elezi, whose

13 house is somewhere in the middle of the village. Another shell fell at

14 the house of Xhavit Selimi. I'm not quite sure about his name, but I

15 think this is his name. And I can tell you about the incident surrounding

16 the six-year-old Evxhan Alju.

17 Q. I thank you.

18 A. Please allow me to finish. May I go on?

19 Q. I thank you. I think you gave the answer to my question.

20 Could you confirm that the shelling was on Friday morning?

21 A. Yes. I only told you where these shells fell. I cannot tell you

22 which shell fell on what time, on what day, but I know where they fell.

23 Maybe there were shells falling on Saturday as well.

24 As for the six-year-old that I mentioned, I can explain that in

25 details because I was there when the shell killed him.

1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I would like to show to the

2 witness the panoramic photograph of the village of Ljuboten, T005-7605.

3 Could you zoom in a little bit more, please.

4 Q. Could you mark the places on the photo where the shells fell in

5 the village of Ljuboten on Friday, the 10th of August in the morning?

6 A. I will try to find the locations. It looks a little bit

7 difficult, but I can show you where the locations are, if you come on the

8 spot, there in the village.

9 Q. Could you mark the places.

10 A. You can see the mosque here. A shell feel here in the mosque

11 area. Another one fell here. I think here is the house that I mentioned

12 earlier of the Ismail Mamuti, Haxhi Mala, as we call him; then the house

13 of Xhavit Selimi is near the graveyard, somewhere here. The house of the

14 person I mentioned earlier, where the shell fell, is somewhere here;

15 although, I cannot find the exact location where the house is. And the

16 shell that killed the six-year-old fell approximately here.

17 Q. Could you mark them with numbers 1 to 5, and tell us which house

18 belongs to which number that was hit?

19 JUDGE PARKER: Maybe I can speed up, Mr. Apostolski. Perhaps

20 either the witness or the court officer would mark immediately underneath

21 the photograph in the space commencing on the left-hand side under the

22 first of the circles with a number 3; and then a number 2 under the second

23 circle, a number 1 under the third; then a number 5 and a number 4 for the

24 right hand one. We will have the order in which they have already been

25 identified.

1 Perhaps the court officers would do that. It would perhaps speed

2 it up. Number 3 under the left-hand circle; then number 2; number 1;

3 number 5; number 4.

4 Thank you. I don't think you need to identify them further than

5 that, Mr. Apostolski.

6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

7 I ask -- I seek to tender this photograph.

8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D4, Your Honours.

10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

11 Q. You said that on Friday, close to the village of Ljuboten, eight

12 soldiers -- eight soldiers of the Macedonian army died and eight soldiers

13 of the Macedonian army were injured by a mine; is that correct?

14 A. Could you please repeat the question.

15 Q. You said that on Friday, close to the village of Ljuboten, eight

16 soldiers died and eight soldiers of the Macedonian army were injured by a

17 mine; is that correct?

18 A. This is not what I said. This is what you said. You know how

19 many were killed. I was not there. This was broadcast on TV. The number

20 was mentioned on TV. This is how we learned that there were eight. You

21 may know better whether there were eight or more than that or less than

22 that.

23 Q. Could you confirm that you have knowledge of that information from

24 television?

25 A. Personally, I didn't hear that report, but my relatives heard it.

1 Q. Once the shooting started on Friday, you took shelter in the

2 basement of your house; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you did not leave the basement all day Friday; is that

5 correct?

6 A. There was no way we could leave the basement, that's correct.

7 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if we may go into a

8 private session.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

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8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

11 Q. You must know the name Commander Lisi; is that correct?

12 A. No. We are here to tell you that there was no commander or army

13 in Ljuboten, and now you're asking me if I know Commander Lisi. I did not

14 hear of this commander.

15 Q. Are you familiar with the name of Commander Teli?

16 A. What do you think of me? Do I resemble a soldier? You're asking

17 me if I know the name of this or that commander. I told you earlier that

18 I don't know the names of these commanders. I was in the sixth grade, and

19 I was not interested in those matters.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Do I take it your answer is no?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you're right. I don't know

22 him.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

24 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

25 Q. On Saturday, 11th of August, 2001, there was also shooting and

1 shelling towards the village of Ljuboten for the entire day; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes, that's correct. The police forces were shelling. Don't

4 think that it was someone else who was shooting and shelling, as they have

5 put it in documents. It was the Macedonian security forces who were

6 uninterruptedly shelling and firing their automatic rifles.

7 Q. On Saturday, did you see where the shells fell?

8 A. No. I only heard the noise because I wasn't a monitor to keep

9 observing what was happening and where the shells fell. I told you

10 earlier, it was impossible for to us leave the place, to have a glass of

11 water, or something to eat. I am sure the accused know this very well.

12 You should ask this question to the accused.

13 Q. Where did you sleep in the night of Saturday?

14 A. The night of Saturday, we were in the basement. I don't suppose I

15 should mention the name of the owner of that house. I'm sure you know

16 that I don't mean my own house but this other house we were taking

17 shelter.

18 Q. And Saturday evening, did you hear shellings and shootings?

19 A. On Saturday, and I say this in full responsibility, on Saturday it

20 was calm, but I would say it was calm and quiet like before a storm. The

21 accused, they took up positions in various places in the village, on the

22 village, and there are witnesses to that. They climbed some of the houses

23 of the village and took up positions there. Thank you.

24 Q. Does it mean that you have spent the whole of Saturday first in

25 the basement of your house and later you went to the other basement and

1 that you did not go anywhere else?

2 A. I think I'm telling it many times. On Saturday, we went to the

3 basement of that gentleman whose name I don't want to mention, and

4 sometimes we left it and went to the new house, our new house, because my

5 brothers, the late brothers, were there. And we went there because we had

6 plant the some tomatoes, as I said, and we wanted to pick up some tomatoes

7 to eat because we didn't have bread, because if there was some light or

8 some smoke raising out of the house, they might be fired at.

9 So as of Friday, nothing functioned in Ljuboten as a village. We

10 were as if we were dead. We were occupied by savage people. I can say it

11 fully, they were savage.

12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may we move into a

13 closed session.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

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18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

20 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

21 Q. And after that, you went to the Brace's House; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you see the Hermeline when you were going to -- towards the

24 Brace's House?

25 A. No, no. I cannot tell you that I saw it. Maybe it went before,

1 or I don't know where it went.

2 Q. Did you see any other vehicles while you were moving towards the

3 Brace's House?

4 A. How many times do you want me to tell you? I couldn't see my own

5 brother let alone other things. I told you that even if we dared moved a

6 little bit our head, they would come ought us with blows and kicks. So we

7 couldn't do anything. I saw that there were people from Ljuboten, and

8 that when we arrived there --

9 Q. Thank you.

10 A. You must listen to me, what happened, because you are not letting

11 me tell you what happened. The people from Ljuboten, civilians, said,

12 "Haven't you killed the so-called terrorists yet?" At least this is what

13 you described us in this way. You didn't say anything about us being

14 forced to do what we were told to do and to sing Arkani's songs and all

15 these things. You shouldn't avoid asking me such kinds of questions. I

16 am here as a witness. You shouldn't ask me things you shouldn't be asking

17 me about.

18 Q. I asked you just whether you have seen any of the vehicles, so

19 please answer yes or no.

20 A. No. I saw only the Hermeline.

21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, are we in a public

22 session? If we may go into a private session.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

24 [Private session]

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6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Could you tell me at least what colour hair did the judge have?

10 Long or short?

11 A. May I continue?

12 So you are asking me again and again about something that I could

13 not tell you about. You should know better who they were. I told you

14 that I did not know them. You should tell me this. You are the ones who

15 committed all this. You should tell me who the lawyers were, who the

16 judges were. You were the initiators, and you were the ones who committed

17 the massacre in Ljuboten.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Are you able to tell the Chamber the colour of the

19 judge's hair?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is easy to lie, but it is more

23 difficult to tell the truth. I would lie to you if I said that I knew.

24 They should know better who these persons were and what was their

25 function.

1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. You only need to tell us that you don't

2 remember and we can move on, you see.

3 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have just one

4 more written exhibit that should be shown to the witness, and I think that

5 this would in order to ascertain the year of his birth. I think it is

6 quite relevant considering the procedure before the Macedonian courts. If

7 we may now move into private session, so that he is shown his birth

8 certificate.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

10 [Private session]

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2 [Open session]

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Apostolski.

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Mr. Apostolski is now finished his

6 questioning.

7 Ms. Motoike do you have re-examination.

8 MS. MOTOIKE: Just briefly, thank you Your Honours.

9 Re-examination by Ms. Motoike:

10 Q. Witness, on, I believe, page 25 of today' transcript, line -- page

11 27, line 25 and page 28, line 1, you were asked about not mentioning that

12 you had seen Mr. Boskoski in your statement that you made to the

13 investigating judge, and you indicated that you always mentioned in your

14 statement that you saw Mr. Boskoski and described him how you saw him.

15 The question that I'm asking you -- that I will ask you is: Do

16 you remember if you were asked by the investigating judge as to whether

17 you saw Mr. Boskoski at Brace's House?

18 A. You mean the judge in Macedonia.

19 Q. Yes, the one that you spoke to at the hospital.

20 A. No, not at all. He didn't. They all knew that he was present

21 there; and as I said earlier, they were not there to help us. They wanted

22 to put us even in a worse position so that they come out as victors of

23 what happened in Ljuboten.

24 Q. Thank you. And then on page 29 of today's transcript, lines 20

25 through 25, you were asked about filing criminal charges against the

1 persons that you recognised regarding the incident that you have described

2 to us today. Can I ask you: Did anyone from the any of the Macedonian

3 institutions, which would Luke the Macedonian police, ever come to you and

4 ask you about the events that you have described today?

5 A. No, never.

6 Q. At some point, you were asked by the lawyer for Mr. Tarculovski,

7 and you were shown a photo, with respect to some shelling that occurred on

8 Friday, the 10th of August. Did you see where that shelling came from,

9 originated from?

10 A. Yes, of course. I can explain it in details where it was coming

11 from. We knew where the positions were, the Macedonian army positions.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 MS. MOTOIKE:

14 Q. Witness, you have also described some persons at Brace's House, on

15 page 49 of today's transcript, lines 21 through 22, saying about so-called

16 terrorists. Were these people speaks in the Macedonian language?

17 A. Yes. They were standing on the side. They were not uniformed

18 persons. They were civilians, ethnic Macedonians from Ljuboten village;

19 and when we got to a location, they were saying, "You still have not

20 killed these terrorists?" This is what I heard, and this is what I know

21 for a fact. And maybe others will point out this fact to you. They will

22 they will you about the same thing that they heard.

23 Q. Did the -- any of the police that you saw there that day, did any

24 of them respond to these statements made by the civilians?

25 A. Yes. They responded to us by maltreating us. I've already told

1 you that normal human beings would not do this to another human being, not

2 even to beasts or animals. They were hitting us with rifle-butts, with

3 everything they could; and as I told you, from that moment on, I lost

4 consciousness.

5 Q. These persons that were saying the statements about so-called

6 terrorists, did you recognise these people as being from Ljuboten?

7 A. I know them very well. Until that moment just before the

8 conflict - although I cannot call it a conflict, better call it a massacre

9 in Ljuboten - we not only helped them but we provided them with food.

10 Q. Witness, my question to you was: These people, were these people

11 from Ljuboten?

12 A. Yes. I told you that they were from Ljuboten.

13 Q. Thank you. And you described a Hermeline vehicle on page 50 of

14 today's transcript line five. Can you tell us what you mean by

15 "Hermeline"?

16 A. This is how they call them, these police or army vehicles. They

17 resemble tanks, in a way. I'm not an expert on this, and maybe the

18 accused will know better how to explain what kind of vehicle it was.

19 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, may we move into private session,

20 please.

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9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE PARKER: You will be pleased to know that that completes

11 your questioning. The Chamber would like to thank you for coming to The

12 Hague and for the assistance you have been able to give, and you are, of

13 course, now able to return, if you wish, to your home. Thank you very

14 much, and the court officer will show you from the courtroom.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, all of you, and I greet

16 you from the bottom of my heart. I hope that the truth will come on to

17 surface and that I helped in that with my testimony today.

18 Thank you.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE PARKER: Is there any further matter that needs to be raised

22 today?

23 If not, we had determined yesterday that we would not have another

24 witness beyond this witness today, in the expectation, of course, that he

25 might have gone a little longer in his evidence. It's good to see that

1 we're speeding up, but we will now adjourn until Monday morning.

2 Could I mention that we are likely to be in another courtroom on

3 Monday. Courtroom I has now been determined, so you will need make sure

4 that you move to that courtroom.

5 Thank you very much. We will see you on Monday.

6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.26 p.m.,

7 to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day of May,

8 2007, at 9.00 a.m.

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