Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 904

1 Wednesday, 16 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning to you all.

7 May I remind you of the affirmation you made at the beginning of

8 your evidence, which still applies.

9 Now, Mr. Saxon, is there any particular matter or are you ready to

10 continue?

11 MR. SAXON: I'm ready to continue. Two small matters simply

12 relating to this witness. Can I simply confirm that the witness -- his

13 ear phones are tied to the Albanian interpretation? Can you understand

14 us, Mr. M-012?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 MR. SAXON: And can I confirm that we are in public session, Your

17 Honour?

18 JUDGE PARKER: We are in public session.

19 MR. SAXON: Very well.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

21 WITNESS: WITNESS M-012 [Resumed]

22 Examination by Mr. Saxon [Continued]:

23 Q. Witness M-012, when we stopped yesterday, you were describing

24 what happened to you and some of your neighbours within the Mirkovci

25 police station. Do you remember that?

Page 905

1 A. [No interpretation]

2 MR. SAXON: I didn't hear a translation to what the witness's

3 response was.

4 A. Yes.


6 Q. Did you ever see a man known as Atulla Qaili in the Mirkovci

7 police station?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. How well did you know Atulla Qaili?

10 A. Very well.

11 Q. Can you describe the condition that Mr. Qaili was in when you saw

12 him in the -- let me go one step slower.

13 When you saw Atulla Qaili, where were you and where was Mr. Qaili,

14 in what part of the police station?

15 A. Atulla Qaili was together with me in the garage of the Mirkovci

16 police station, and he was in a very grave situation.

17 Q. Can you be a little bit more specific? Can you describe his --

18 Mr. Qaili's physical condition?

19 A. Yes, I can. His physical condition was very bad, so much so that

20 it's hard for me to describe it. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw

21 him, to what state he was reduced. He was covered with blood all over.

22 There wasn't any place or any part on his body that was not covered with

23 blood. He was unable to speak.

24 Q. Did you try to help Mr. Qaili in any way?

25 A. I tried, but there was nothing we could do. We were in such a

Page 906

1 situation that it was impossible for us to do anything for him. We just

2 put our hat over his head.

3 Q. Mr. M-012, I would like you to just listen to my question and then

4 respond to the question briefly, and then wait for the next question. I

5 think we'll get through this more quickly if you can do that. All right?

6 A. [No interpretation]

7 Q. You say you tried to help Mr. Qaili. What specifically did you do

8 to try to help this gentleman?

9 A. I put his head on my lap and tried to stop the bleeding, because

10 there was a lot of bleeding coming out of his head.

11 Q. And was Mr. Qaili able to speak to you?

12 A. No. No, he wasn't.

13 Q. And then what happened to Mr. Qaili there in the garage, if you

14 know?

15 A. The same thing that happened to all of us happened to Mr. Qaili.

16 He was beaten, mistreated the same way as we were, all of us who were

17 there in the police station garage.

18 Q. Did Mr. Qaili remain in the garage with you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And what eventually happened with Mr. Qaili?

21 A. Eventually, he was taken away and sent to an unknown destination.

22 We asked for the doctors to come to give him some help, but we asked for

23 the first time, the second time nothing happened; and the third time, they

24 came and fetched him, but we don't know where they took him to.

25 MR. SAXON: Your Honours, at this time, I would like to show the

Page 907

1 witness Rule 65 ter number 205. It's a photograph, and it's at tab 4 of

2 the materials that you have with you.

3 Q. Witness, if you can please take a look at the photograph that you

4 see on the screen in front of you. Do you recognise the person in that

5 photograph?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And who is that person?

8 A. Atulla Qaili.

9 Q. On the morning of the 12th of August, before the police came to

10 the house, did Atulla Qaili look like this?

11 A. No.

12 Q. How did he look?

13 A. He looked like every normal being. He was in a very good

14 condition.

15 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would tender this photograph into

16 evidence, please.

17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P187, Your Honours.


20 Q. How many days did you spend in the Mirkovci police station, if you

21 can recall?

22 A. Yes, I recall. In the Mirkovci police station, I stayed from

23 Sunday to Wednesday -- to Tuesday.

24 Q. Before you had described how you had lost your pants and your

25 underwear at some point near the Brace house, were you able to obtain some

Page 908

1 clothing at some point?

2 A. No. I kept constantly asking to have some clothes, but nobody

3 gave me anything.

4 Q. What help, if any, did you receive from your neighbours who were

5 held with you in the Mirkovci police station?

6 A. One of them gave me his underwear.

7 Q. So you say you remained in the Mirkovci police station until

8 Tuesday. If you can recall, where did you go on Tuesday, which would have

9 been 14th of August?

10 A. On the 14th of August, they sent us to the court, Skopje Court.

11 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, may we move into private session very

12 briefly?

13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 909

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.


9 Q. And when you were transported to the court in Skopje, do you know

10 what this court was called? Do you know the name of the court where you

11 were taken?

12 A. I only knew it to be "the court," a court, just any court. I

13 didn't know more than that.

14 Q. When you and some of your neighbours arrived at the court, what

15 happened at that moment when you first arrived?

16 A. We were beaten there, too, by the Macedonian police.

17 Q. What were the police wearing?

18 A. Some of them were in uniform; some were in civilian clothes.

19 Q. And you say you were beaten. What were you beaten with?

20 A. With whatever they had, with rubber batons. We were kicked at,

21 anything they could.

22 Q. And as you were being beaten, what, if anything, did these

23 policemen say to you?

24 A. They told us that, "You are to blame, that's why you are here.

25 You are the culprits."

Page 910

1 Q. Were you taken inside the court?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Without stating their names, did you see anyone who you knew there

4 inside?

5 A. No.

6 Q. What happened then?

7 A. Then they started to try us.

8 Q. Where were you taken, Witness M-012?

9 A. Inside the trial chamber.

10 Q. And when you were taken inside, who was there?

11 A. There were the Bench, the prosecutor, and a lawyer that they

12 assigned to me.

13 Q. When you say "the Bench," are you referring to a judge?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. When you entered that courtroom and you saw these people, what

16 condition were you in?

17 A. In a very, very bad state. I could hardly stand on my feet.

18 Q. And was there any discussion amongst these people when you went

19 into that room?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What were they talking about?

22 A. They were talking about me.

23 Q. Can you be a little bit more specific, please? What were they

24 discussing about you?

25 A. May I recount it in detail? They were discussing about me why I

Page 911

1 was without any clothes, why I had the injuries on me, and if they did

2 release me, what do the papers say about that? One of them said, "Send

3 him to -- remand him in custody for 30 days. Maybe he will get better,

4 and then we will see what to do with him."

5 Q. Why, if you heard, why were these people concerned about what

6 would happen if you were released?

7 A. Because I was in a very precarious health condition. My body was

8 filled with injuries. It had become blue all over. My eye -- one of my

9 eyes was almost closed. I had problems with my kidney. My feet were

10 aching. As I said, I was in a very, very bad state.

11 Q. What I need your help with, if you can help us, please, you said

12 these people said something about "if they release me, what do the papers

13 say about that." What papers are you referring to?

14 A. I'm referring to local newspapers or international newspapers.

15 They might write about the treatment given to us, because we needed

16 medical assistance and not to be taken to the court or to be sent to jail.

17 We should be in hospital, given the condition we were in, because we were

18 in a very, very serious condition. It's hard for me to describe to you.

19 Q. And what did these -- what, if anything, did these gentlemen tell

20 you?

21 A. They told us that we would be taken into custody, pre-detention

22 unit, and then they asked me how come I have such bruises and injuries all

23 over my body.

24 Q. And when you were in this courtroom with these people, what

25 accusations, if any, did they make against you?

Page 912

1 A. I didn't hear any accusations. I only know that we were sent to

2 30 days of imprisonment in Shutka Prison.

3 Q. Just to clarify, at any point on the 12th of August, did you

4 have -- were you in possession of a weapon, a fire-arm?

5 A. Not at all.

6 Q. Were you in possession of any ammunition?

7 A. No, I wasn't.

8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would like to show the witness what is

9 tab 5 in your binder, and if this exhibit could not be published to the

10 public, because we are in public session and it might identify the

11 witness. This is 65 ter number 10.25. It has ERN number 0463-8824.

12 Q. Witness, I would like you to please take a look at the Macedonian

13 version of the document that's on the right side of your computer screen.

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecutor.

15 MR. SAXON: My apologies.

16 Q. Witness M-012, I would like to ask you to please take a look at

17 the right side of the computer screen in front of you. It shows the

18 Macedonian version of this document.

19 Are you able to read some in the Macedonian language?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. This document says, at the top, "Ministry of Interior, OVR Cair."

22 It's dated 12th of August, 2001, Skopje. It's called "Certificate on

23 Temporary Seized Possessions," and it reads: "On the day of 12 August

24 2001, at the police station Mirkovci," and then we see a name there. I

25 won't say it at this time because we're in public session. Is that your

Page 913

1 name?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Born on a particular birth-date. Is that your birth-date?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And it says: "The authorised person," and then there's a blank,

6 "seized the following possessions in temporary custody." And then on

7 line 1, it says: "41 bullets for a Thompson-calibre 45," "Thompson

8 automatic rifle" in the English version. Do you see that?

9 A. Yes. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Did you have any such bullets in your possession on the 12th of

11 August?

12 A. No, we did not.

13 MR. SAXON: If we can ask the audio-visual group, please, to

14 actually let us see a bit more of the bottom of the Macedonian version.

15 We need to see the bottom of it. Thank you, that's fine.

16 Q. On the right-hand side, we see a signature. In the middle, we see

17 a stamp. On the left-hand side, it says: "Possessions were seized by,"

18 and then there's a name written there. Can you just tell us, is that your

19 name that's written there?

20 A. Yes, that's my name, but this is not my signature.

21 Q. So you did not sign this document?

22 A. No. No, I didn't.

23 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would tender this document into

24 evidence, please.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Already you'll find that tab 5 is now Exhibit P46,

Page 914

1 Mr. Saxon. The big motion to admit documents from the bar table included

2 this one, I'm told.

3 MR. SAXON: I'm grateful for that, Your Honour. Until this

4 moment, I was not aware that there was a decision, but, obviously, there

5 was and I need to read it. Thank you very much.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Well, it could give you some bedtime reading

7 tonight, Mr. Saxon.

8 MR. SAXON: It will, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will keep you awake for a while.

10 MR. SAXON: That's fine, Your Honour. My wife is away, so I have

11 a good excuse.

12 Q. Witness M-012, I'd like to go back to the time when --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

14 MR. SAXON: My apologies again.

15 Q. I'd like to go back to the time on the 14th of August when you

16 were in the court in Skopje. All right? Can you turn your mind to that

17 for a minute?

18 MR. SAXON: I would like to show the witness what is tab 6, which

19 is 65 ter number 10.37, ERN number 0463-8846 to 8847. Before I go on, can

20 I just confirm that the last exhibit is admitted under seal?


22 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE PARKER: And so is this one, and this is part of P46 as

24 well.

25 MR. SAXON: I see. Very well. Can this not be published to the

Page 915

1 public, please.

2 Q. Witness M-012, you see the document on the right side of your

3 screen?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. This is a document. At the top, we see the date "14 August 2001."

6 We see the words -- we see a name there. Can you confirm that that's your

7 correct name under the date?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. We see the words "Velce Pancevski, Dobre Efremovski, Rumena

10 Kostadinova."

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. SAXON: Can we turn to the second page, please?

13 The document that is on the screen does not appear to be the

14 document that we need. We need the second page of this prior -- this

15 statement. It should have ERN 0463-8847. I think it's coming now.

16 Q. I just have a few questions for you, Witness M-012, about the

17 contents of what's written here. It says: "Started at 1540 hours," and

18 then in the second paragraph, it says: "Pursuant to Article 210,

19 paragraph 2, the accused was informed that the basic public prosecution

20 had delivered a request on the enforcement of investigation with the

21 proposal to impose detention."

22 Do you see that? Do you see where I'm reading?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And in the next sentence, it says: "Thus, because of the

25 well-based suspicion, he committed a criminal act of terrorism pursuant to

Page 916

1 Article 313."

2 Do you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Just for the record, have you ever been a member of a terrorist

5 group?

6 A. Never. I've never been a member of any group or political party.

7 Q. Have you ever committed any acts of terrorism?

8 A. Never.

9 Q. But at this time, you were accused of such conduct; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, they do accuse me. They can write whatever they want on this

12 paper, but this does not refer to me because I am a loyal citizen of that

13 state. I am clean. I have done nothing.

14 Q. Can you please go two paragraphs further down. There's a big

15 paragraph in the middle of the page, and it says, in sort of the second

16 sentence, it says: "The accused stated before this court, before the

17 investigative judge"?


19 I'm sorry. Whoever is working, it would be the next paragraph

20 down, please, the large paragraph beginning: "Pursuant to Article 3."

21 That's correct. And on the Macedonian version, if you go down a bit, up a

22 bit. Right there. Go down a bit.

23 And if you start enlarging there, then the witness will be able to

24 see it. Scroll down. That's it right there. That's enough. Thank you.

25 Q. It says, Witness, in that paragraph: "I am beaten up by the

Page 917

1 police." I should say before that, it also says: "The accused stated

2 before this court, before the investigative judge, 'I am beaten up by the

3 police because of the incident that happened on Sunday, 12 August 2001 .'"

4 And it says: "I have injuries on my face. My right eye is

5 closed with a bloody hematoma and bruise. My right eye is damaged and my

6 vision ability is bad. My nose is injured, and, especially, I have bodily

7 pains in the region of my kidneys. I was beaten all over my body, and

8 today I am brought in the court before the investigative judge in my

9 T-shirt and underwear only," et cetera, et cetera.

10 Can you tell us, please, Mr. M-012, is this a roughly accurate

11 description of the injuries that you had at that time?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If you look down at the very bottom of the page, you see the word

14 "accused" at the bottom. Do you see that word in the Macedonian

15 language?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And then there appears to be a signature there underneath that

18 word "accused." Do you see that signature?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Witness M-012, is that your signature?

21 A. No.

22 MR. SAXON: If that document can be removed now, please.

23 Q. Witness M-012, after the court, where, if anywhere, were you

24 taken?

25 A. After the court, I was taken to the Shutka Prison.

Page 918

1 Q. Who took you to the Shutka Prison?

2 A. The police.

3 Q. And were you taken there all by yourself or were there other

4 detained persons with you?

5 A. Others as well, other prisoners.

6 MR. SAXON: Can we move into private session for a moment, Your

7 Honour?

8 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.


24 Q. And when you arrived, you and this group arrived at Shutka Prison,

25 what happened when you arrived there?

Page 919

1 A. When we arrived there, they ordered us to make a statement, a

2 written statement, saying that allegedly we were beaten by the fellow

3 villagers, but I did not want to do that. I wanted to say the truth, that

4 we were beaten by the police; and what happened in the prison was the same

5 as what happened previously, we were beaten by the police in prison as

6 well.

7 Q. Let's go a little bit more slowly, please. When you say, "They

8 ordered us to make a statement," saying that you and your neighbours had

9 been beaten by fellow villagers, who ordered you to make such a statement?

10 Do you know the identity of this person?

11 A. Yes, I know him very well. Do you want me to mention his name?

12 Q. Yes.

13 A. He was referred as Commander Zivko.

14 Q. While you were in the prison, what medical treatment, if any, did

15 you receive?

16 A. Am I allowed to respond? I didn't receive any medical treatment

17 except for a pill called Analgin, and they cleaned my eyes with a sort of

18 a liquid spray. Apart from these two things, I didn't receive any other

19 medical treatment.

20 Q. And how much time did you spend, approximately, in that prison?

21 A. Four months.

22 Q. Witness M-012, while you were in Shutka Prison, did anyone from

23 the police or Ministry of Interior come and ask you questions about what

24 had happened to you on the 12th of August or after the 12th of August?

25 A. No.

Page 920

1 Q. Anyone from the public prosecutor's office or from any

2 investigative judge? Did anyone come and ask you about these events while

3 you were in prison?

4 A. No, no.

5 Q. After you were released from prison after four months, did anyone

6 from the police, Ministry of Interior, public prosecutor's office, any

7 investigative judge, attempt to contact you to speak to you about these

8 events?

9 A. No. No, not at all. Up to this date, nobody came to ask me about

10 the events.

11 Q. When you say "nobody," you're referring to no one from the

12 Government of Macedonia?

13 A. Yes, yes. Nobody from the Government of Macedonia.

14 Q. I need to step back for a moment and go back to that Sunday

15 morning, the 12th of August, and just clarify a point.

16 You had explained that you and some other men were in the basement

17 of your house, and then the police arrived. Were there any women in that

18 basement at the time the police arrived, where you were? Were there any

19 women in the basement where you were?

20 A. No. There were not any women in the basement where I was, but

21 they were in the basement in the house nearby.

22 Q. And just to help us understand, why were men and women staying in

23 different basements?

24 A. Because that basement was safer.

25 Q. Which basement was safer, the basement where the men were or the

Page 921

1 basement where the women were?

2 A. The basement where the women were.

3 Q. At any point, did some of the men visit the women in the basement

4 for a period of time?

5 A. Yes, continuously, because they were scared. We would go and see

6 how they were doing. We would play a little bit with the children just to

7 make them not frightened.

8 Q. Witness, after what happened to you in August of 2001, do you

9 still feel any effects from that treatment, from that experience?

10 A. Can you please repeat the question? I do not understand it.

11 Q. It's my fault. It means I didn't ask a clear question. I'll try

12 to rephrase it.

13 You've mentioned some injuries -- you mentioned injuries that you

14 received on the 12th of August, 2001, and on the days after that. Since

15 that time, can you describe how your health is today?

16 A. Yes. My health condition is disastrous. I have permanent

17 headaches, my body aches, and these wounds will never go away. I do not

18 hope -- I do not think that these consequences will ever heal.

19 Q. How do you sleep at night?

20 A. I cannot sleep at all. You might not believe me, but I can't. I

21 have problems with my sleep.

22 Q. Before the 12th of August, did you suffer from these problems that

23 you've just described? The 12th of August, 2001.

24 A. I never had any health problems. My body was clear as a crystal.

25 I never visited any doctor, because there was no need to. I was perfectly

Page 922

1 healthy, physically and psychically.

2 Q. Before the 12th of August, were you able to work on a regular

3 basis?

4 A. Of course, yes, regularly.

5 Q. Since August of 2001, are you able to work regularly?

6 A. No.

7 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I have no further questions

8 for this witness.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Saxon.

10 Ms. Residovic.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

12 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, M-012. I am Edina Residovic, and

14 together with my colleague, Guenal Mettraux, I'm defending Mr. Boskoski.

15 Because of some of the questions I have, I ask to move into a

16 private session.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 923











11 Pages 923-925 redacted. Private session.















Page 926

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. The documents are not being displayed

25 to the public at the moment, only photographs. So as long as you're

Page 927

1 careful in your questioning, we should be able to continue in public

2 session.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

4 Q. After the text of your statement has been translated, is it true

5 that you signed not only the first but also the other pages of your

6 statement?

7 A. I don't remember. Maybe I did sign, but I can't remember.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now ask that the witness

9 is shown the second page of this text. It might be 1D0513.

10 Your Honours, I apologise. It is possible that -- that we should

11 now go on to document 65 ter number 1D39, page 1D0467, and the Macedonian

12 version -- no, no, no. 1467. Can we see the other page, 1D067?

13 JUDGE PARKER: I'm told there is some temporary technical problem

14 which is attempting to be resolved, which is preventing the publication of

15 the document you want onto the screen.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Okay. I would not look for the

17 number now, not to hold up the witness. The witness said he does not

18 remember. By showing the page, probably we would remind him.

19 But I would now like to ask that document 65 ter number 1D39, page

20 1D074 is shown, the Macedonian version 1D0485.

21 Q. Mr. M-012, do you recognise your signature on this page?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Is it correct that when giving this statement and the later

24 statements to the investigator of the Prosecutor, after being read the

25 statement, you have signed that you give the statement on your free will

Page 928

1 and that everything you have said is the truth according to your best

2 recollections; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The second statement given to the investigator of the Prosecutor

5 was given by you on 4th of November, 2004; is that correct?

6 A. I don't remember the date.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Then I will ask that the witness

8 is shown document 65 ter number 1D40, page 1D0487.

9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

11 MR. SAXON: If it would help my colleague and help speed up the

12 process, the Prosecution is willing to stipulate to the dates of these

13 statements, if that would help.

14 JUDGE PARKER: The Defence may be assisted by that, Mr. Saxon.

15 Ms. Residovic, the Prosecutor says that he can agree to the dates of the

16 statements.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I think that then we

18 don't need to show the aforementioned document.

19 Q. Is it also correct, Mr. M-012, that in April of this year, in

20 Ljuboten, you saw the documents that were shown to you by the investigator

21 of the Prosecutor of the ICTY and that your comments regarding those

22 documents were noted down, and that after that you have signed also those

23 comments regarding the documents you were shown?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. After you were shown the documents, you then made additional

Page 929

1 comments and corrections to your previous statements; is that correct?

2 A. Maybe I did. There were probably some typing errors or some

3 translation mistakes.

4 Q. Thank you. We will now move to the questions asked to you

5 yesterday by my colleague with regards to the events.

6 When you were answering the questions of my learned colleague

7 about the people -- who were the people who requested from you to go out

8 of the basement of the house of (redacted), you stated that it was the

9 police. And the question to describe the uniform, if you remember, you

10 stated that those were camouflage uniforms, black uniforms, and all sorts

11 of uniforms that the police is wearing, as recorded on page 70 of the

12 unofficial transcript. Do you remember that you have said this?

13 A. Yes.

14 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.

15 JUDGE PARKER: A redaction, Mr. Saxon?

16 MR. SAXON: Yes, please.

17 JUDGE PARKER: It is under control.

18 MR. SAXON: Thank you.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for the

20 caution. I will try not to mention a name later.

21 Q. Tell me now, Mr. M-012, is it correct that you have recognised the

22 uniforms those persons were wearing only based on the colours that you

23 have described answering the question of the learned colleague?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-012, at that time, the Army of the Republic

Page 930

1 Macedonia was wearing both camouflage and black uniforms; were you

2 familiar with this fact as well?

3 A. I don't know about the army. I don't know that the army was

4 wearing black uniforms.

5 Q. Tell me, Mr. M-012, is it correct if I were to say that actually,

6 in 2001, you did not know the structure of the army and neither of the

7 police of the Republic of Macedonia?

8 A. It's not true. I do know them because I live there.

9 Q. So, Mr. M-012, you mean to say that you were familiar with the

10 complete organisation that the police had and the Army of the Republic of

11 Macedonia as well in 2001?

12 A. Can you repeat the question, please? I'm not clear.

13 Q. So, since you stated that you knew that because you were living

14 there, my question is: Have I understood you well? You then, in 2001,

15 knew the complete structure and the organisation of the police and the

16 Army of the Republic of Macedonia. Was that what you have just confirmed?

17 A. No, no.

18 Q. So you then did not know the organisation and the structure of

19 neither the army nor the police at that time?

20 A. I know it. What you want me to say, in what respect, do I know

21 them?

22 Q. Maybe a bit more precise. Did you know what were the special

23 competencies belonging to the individual bodies of the police or the

24 individual body of the Army of the Republic of Macedonia?

25 A. No, I didn't.

Page 931

1 Q. Thank you. If I were to say that you didn't know also what were

2 the exact bodies in the Republic of Macedonia that had the duty to run the

3 investigation, you could agree with this again?

4 MR. SAXON: Your Honours.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

6 MR. SAXON: Can that question be clarified? The translation was

7 "the duty to run the investigation." Can it be clarified what

8 investigation my colleague is speaking about?

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. I think that needs clarification.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. M-012, were you, as a citizen of the Republic of Macedonia,

12 familiar with the notion that it is only the courts that are running

13 investigations?

14 A. I was not informed of that, but, normally, I think it's a court

15 that should do that.

16 Q. So my question is: Is it correct, considering your answer as

17 well, that you do not know precisely all competencies of the bodies that

18 are in charge of the investigation in the Republic of Macedonia; is that

19 correct?

20 A. I think it is the court's responsibility to conduct

21 investigations. As far as I know, it should be done through the court.

22 Q. Thank you. But you don't have any knowledge about the body

23 superior to the courts in the Republic of Macedonia?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You surely, considering your profession and the life you led in

Page 932

1 Ljuboten, were not able to know at that time what were the tasks and the

2 competencies of the prosecutors of the Republic of Macedonia?

3 A. [No interpretation]

4 Q. The answer is not in the transcript.

5 A. [No verbal response]

6 Q. You also do not know who would be the body superior over the work

7 of the prosecutors in the Republic of Macedonia; is that correct?

8 A. I know, because I know that it's the Ministry of Justice that

9 leads the work of the prosecutor's office. I think it's up to the

10 Ministry to do this, because there is a Ministry of Justice in every state

11 that must guide the work of the prosecutor's office. This I know very

12 well.

13 Q. I will ask you, Mr. M-012, to go back to a previous question,

14 because the interpreters are reminding us that in -- that one of my

15 previous questions was not recorded -- the answer was not recorded in the

16 transcript. So I will ask you to answer me again.

17 Namely, I have asked you that considering your profession and the

18 life you led in Ljuboten, is it correct that in 2001, you did not know

19 what were the tasks and the competencies of the prosecutor in the Republic

20 of Macedonia? So please answer this, because your answer was not recorded

21 in the transcript.

22 A. The tasks and the powers of the prosecutor's office should be

23 known by the Ministry of Justice because they are under its jurisdiction.

24 It's one of its bodies, I think.

25 Q. My learned colleague has asked you about your arrival to the court

Page 933

1 in Skopje, and you then mentioned that there was some police there. Tell

2 me, is it correct that you do not know to which body is the police that

3 operates within the court building attached?

4 A. The police is under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Interior.

5 It's one of its bodies; whereas, the court falls into the Ministry of

6 Justice jurisdiction. This I know very well.

7 Q. Later, you stated that you have been in a prison, and it is there

8 where you encountered police or prison guards?

9 A. The prison guard. I described -- by the word "police," I refer

10 also to the prison guard, because they were wearing uniform.

11 Q. You also do not know what is the body superior to the prison

12 guards and the prison itself; is that correct?

13 A. I know. I know who is the superior body. I know that the

14 Ministry of Interior also has responsibility over the prison, as well as

15 the court. I know this very well.

16 Q. If the laws of the Republic of Macedonia would stipulate

17 differently from your testimony, you would still remain with your answer

18 that you have just given previously?

19 A. I don't understand your question. Can you be more explicit,

20 please?

21 Q. I'm withdrawing the question and I will not ask you this question,

22 because your knowledge about the legislation are probably not of the sort

23 that you would be able to fully answer my question.

24 Now, Mr. M-012, we would move to some other questions that you

25 have discussed yesterday and also previously with the investigators of the

Page 934

1 Prosecution.

2 As a citizen of the Republic of Macedonia, you were aware that in

3 2001, there was a conflict between certain Albanian groups, especially in

4 the regions of Kumanovo and Tetovo, and that those events were broadcasted

5 also via the Macedonian television; is that correct?

6 A. Yes, I heard about it.

7 Q. You're also familiar that because of the deterioration of the

8 security situation and the crisis in the country, the Army of the Republic

9 of Macedonia has deployed its forces around Ljuboten; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You know that the Army of Macedonia, because of the special

12 strategic importance, that the area of Ljuboten and Skopska Crna Gora, on

13 the slopes of which Ljuboten is located, are of the special importance for

14 the security of the city of Skopje; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe this would be

17 the right time to take recess, because I will then start asking questions

18 directly related to Ljuboten.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We must have our first break at this

20 time because of the tapes, and we will resume at 11.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

24 Oh, I beg your pardon. Ms. Residovic.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 935

1 Q. Mr. M-012, before we move on to events in Ljuboten, with regards

2 to the previous questions, just an additional clarification.

3 When my learned colleague asked you questions about your

4 interrogation in the court, you were shown the minutes from that

5 interrogation. Do you remember that?

6 A. I don't understand your question. Can you please repeat it?

7 Q. My colleague, the Prosecutor, when examining you, showed you

8 minutes -- a record from the investigating judge in the court in Skopje.

9 Do you remember that my colleague showed you this?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You then stated that there were the judge, the prosecutor, and, if

12 I understood you well, an attorney there. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You have answered my question, that you knew that above the

15 prosecutor's office the superior body was the Ministry of Justice and that

16 this is a generally-known fact; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You must know, then, that in 2001 the Minister of Justice in

19 Macedonia was Mr. Hixhet Mehmeti; did you know that?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. I want to ask you now what you probably know, that on the 10th of

22 August, 2001, not far from Ljuboten, at the Ljubotenski Bacila locality, a

23 landmine caused the deaths of several members of the Army of the Republic

24 of Macedonia and several others were injured. Are you familiar with that?

25 ?

Page 936

1 A. We heard about this event from the media and television, but this

2 location is not nearby. It's about ten kilometres far from Ljuboten.

3 Q. The news about the landmine that was placed and the consequences

4 clearly indicated that the mine was placed by the Albanian terrorists; is

5 that correct?

6 A. I don't know who laid those mines, but the two parties should know

7 who did that. I was a simple civilian. I was looking after my family and

8 was not interested in these matters.

9 Q. Maybe my question, Mr. M-012, was not clear enough. I'm not

10 saying that you know, but is it correct that the media, the TV and the

11 other media, informed the public that those mines were placed there by the

12 Albanian terrorists; is that correct?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-012, that on that date armed people, who

15 participated in the placing of the mine, entered the village of Ljuboten?

16 A. Can you please repeat your question?

17 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-012, that on that date, on the Friday, the

18 10th of August, 2001, people who participated in the placing of the mine

19 entered the village of Ljuboten?

20 A. That is a lie. There were no people of that kind in Ljuboten.

21 Only this massacre was committed in Ljuboten. Only the civilians or

22 residents of Ljuboten, men, women, elderly, children, were in Ljuboten.

23 No other people were in Ljuboten. Whatever information that you are

24 putting to me is incorrect.

25 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-012, that the situation brought about

Page 937

1 disturbance among the citizens, and one part of the inhabitants left

2 Ljuboten on the Friday and the Saturday?

3 A. Who do you mean?

4 Q. Part of the inhabitants of the village of Ljuboten left Ljuboten?

5 A. Yes. Those who could leave left, and they left because of the

6 shooting coming from different types of weapons used by the Macedonian

7 army and police.

8 Q. Is it correct that your wife, with your young son, also left

9 Ljuboten?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. That should be

12 redacted, and I now move that we go into a closed session.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

14 [Private session]

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 938











11 Pages 938-939 redacted. Private session.















Page 940

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-012, that on the Saturday there was an

25 agreement in the village to organise check-points and resistance if

Page 941

1 someone would enter the village to make searches; is that correct?

2 A. I don't understand you. Please repeat your question and clarify.

3 Q. Are you aware, Mr. M-012, that on the Saturday a meeting was held

4 with the village leaders; whereby, it has been agreed that check-points

5 are organised and to give resistance to those that would enter the village

6 in order to search it?

7 A. No. No, this is not true.

8 Q. Is it correct, Mr. M-012, that in that moment, Commander Lisi said

9 that he is the one who will take the responsibility about the situation in

10 the village?

11 A. Excuse me, but I don't know who Commander Lisi is.

12 Q. Tell me, is it correct that on that day, all adult men were

13 distributed a certain quantity of bullets in case that someone would enter

14 the village?

15 A. No, that's not correct. If we had weapons or if we had an

16 organisation in the village, I wouldn't have been captured by them. This

17 is a misinformation. It has nothing to do with the reality. There was

18 nobody armed in Ljuboten. Only a massacre was committed there.

19 The whole world should know that only a massacre and a genocide

20 was committed in Ljuboten against people, elderly, women, children. A

21 six-year-old child was killed, and he was completely innocent. We were

22 all civilians, innocent residents in Ljuboten.

23 Q. Mr. M-012, you just mentioned that a six-year-old boy was killed.

24 Could you confirm that that kid died on the Friday, 10th of August, from a

25 shell?

Page 942

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You know the person by the name of Baki Halimi; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And as to everyone else in the village, you also knew that Baki

5 Halimi was called Commander Lisi?

6 A. That is not correct. Baki Halimi is a history teacher. He was

7 not a commander. He is only a teacher. This is misinformation that

8 you're putting to me. Maybe to you these are arguments, but for me they

9 are not. They are completely incorrect.

10 Q. Tell me, Mr. M-012, is it correct that it is in line with Albanian

11 tradition that men possess weapons that was earlier mainly used for

12 certain festivities; is that correct?

13 A. No, that's not correct.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now ask that the witness

15 is shown document 1D40, 1D0490. I will -- let me just see. We have the

16 Macedonian text here. No, there is no Albanian; there is only Macedonian

17 text here.

18 Q. You can see that exactly in this statement of yours, you mentioned

19 that it is correct that there's a cultural tradition of the Albanians to

20 possess weapons in the house and to only use it during festivities; is

21 that what you have earlier said? This is your statement of 4th of

22 November, 2004.

23 A. But this does not apply to the 21st century. This applies to the

24 past, when the Albanians had the tradition to do this during festivities

25 and celebrations. In the 21st century, there's no room for weapons.

Page 943

1 There's only room for pencils and learned people.

2 Q. You can also confirm, Mr. M-012, that after these events, also

3 events of August in 2001, in the village of Ljuboten and in the

4 surroundings of the village, an additional hidden weapon was found,

5 although there was no conflict in the area anymore?

6 A. Where?

7 Q. I'm asking you: Are you aware of that?

8 A. No.

9 Q. On this very page of the statement of the 4th of November, 2004,

10 you were asked about whether there was a meeting of the leaders. You said

11 there was no time for such a meeting to be held, but people were only

12 meeting individually, discussing whether -- is that what you said?

13 A. I spoke only with those who were in the same basement with me. I

14 had no opportunity to speak with any other person, and I already told you

15 that. You should know it for a fact.

16 Q. So, if you have stated something else earlier, then your statement

17 differs from the statements -- from the statement that you are giving now

18 before the Court?

19 MR. SAXON: Your Honours.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

21 MR. SAXON: I apologise for the interruption. If we can simply be

22 directed a little bit more precisely to which part of this statement my

23 colleague is referring to, perhaps a paragraph number or a page. I see it

24 now. I believe my colleague is referring to paragraph 17. Yes, it looks

25 like 17 in the English version.

Page 944

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I

2 interpreted the question in order to gain some time, thinking that the

3 question [as interpreted] can answer that question. Thank you for the

4 assistance of my colleague.

5 Q. My last question would be -- was: Is it correct that your

6 statement about the mentioned facts given today before the Tribunal and

7 the statement that you have previously given to the investigator of the

8 Prosecution are differing about these facts?

9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I think it would be more helpful if my

10 learned colleague could be a bit more precise, point out particular facts.

11 I'm not sure if this witness can answer that question the way it was

12 phrased.

13 JUDGE PARKER: He may be able to answer generally; but if not, it

14 will be necessary to look particularly, if Ms. Residovic wishes to pursue

15 it. So proceed with your question, Ms. Residovic.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. M-012, is it correct that your statement given today before

18 the Court, regarding the traditional possession of arms and about the

19 individual meetings with the people after the mine incident, is different

20 than the statement given to the investigators of the Prosecutor?

21 MR. SAXON: Your Honours.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

23 MR. SAXON: Unless I'm confused by the translation, I believe

24 there may be a problem with this question, because I don't believe I asked

25 any questions of the witness about the ethnic Albanian culture, nor about

Page 945

1 meetings with people after the mine incident. So this strikes me as a

2 very confusing question to be asked to this witness this way.

3 JUDGE PARKER: I think that's a fair observation, Ms. Residovic,

4 because you're referring in this question, it seems, to the traditional

5 possession of arms; and the first the Chamber has heard of it is your

6 questioning just now, so there seems to be no previous evidence before us

7 from this witness about that matter.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour. I

9 asked the witness today about that fact and I later pointed out to him

10 what he has said to the investigators of the Prosecution in his statement,

11 and I did not mention that the learned colleague asked the witness about

12 it before this court. So I'm asking about the difference between what he

13 said before and the answers he gave to my questions.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Well, I find it confusing. I don't know how the

15 witness will manage. I suspect if you want to pursue this, you might have

16 to put to him some specific aspects.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If there is some confusion, I

18 would just address the witness again with the question, whether is it

19 correct that in his previous statement, he stated, in point 20 of the

20 documents shown to him, that it is true that the cultural thing or

21 tradition is to possess arms in a house, but it is only possessed in order

22 to be used during festivities.

23 On my question, the witness previously answered that it is not the

24 tradition of the Albanians, and, therefore, my additional question came

25 whether his answer of today and the answer that he had given before are

Page 946

1 different.

2 JUDGE PARKER: I understood differently the answer of the witness.

3 I understood him to say it is not in the 21st century the tradition of the

4 Albanians, but it was the tradition earlier. If that helps, I don't know.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let me go on to the

6 next question.

7 Q. Yesterday, at the questions of my learned colleague, you explained

8 that after being taken out of the basement, that you were ordered to lie

9 on the ground; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You were all lying in a small place -- a small space; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And although you were facing the ground, you were able to hear

15 everything that the others were saying and all the words that were

16 directed to the others; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Since you had T-shirts over your head, you were not able to see

19 everything precisely; is that correct?

20 A. We were not.

21 Q. In the moment while you were lying, no one put a knife under your

22 throat and said that they are going to slaughter you?

23 A. They put the knives on our throats, this is correct, and the

24 barrels of their weapons into our mouths. You should believe everything

25 I'm saying to you, because everything I'm saying is accurate. The knives

Page 947

1 on our throats, the barrels of the guns into our mouths, and many other

2 things that happened there.

3 Q. Thank you. At that moment, Mr. M-012, no one entered other

4 premises, especially nobody entered the mosque; is that correct?

5 A. I don't know. I didn't have a chance to go to the mosque.

6 Whoever was there, ask him or her to come and testify.

7 Q. At this moment, I'd like to ask you to answer to the questions

8 that you have answers to. Please tell me, Mr. M-012, is it correct that

9 about putting the knife under your throat, you never testified in your

10 previous statements about it; is that correct?

11 A. One can never tell everything at one time. You don't have the

12 time. You don't remember things. Now that I am here, even now I cannot

13 tell everything. Everything you ask about something, you will certainly

14 say something more or something less, because you cannot describe the

15 entire reality. It will take such a long time, and I'm sure one will be

16 always unable to describe everything one has gone through.

17 Q. Answering to the questions of my colleague, the Prosecutor,

18 regarding the death of Sulejman Bajrami, yesterday, you said that first

19 money was taken away from her [as interpreted] mother and other

20 possessions - that's pages 74, line 18 and 19 on the official transcript -

21 and then you were ordered to walk - page 75 from the unofficial

22 transcript - and that then Sulejman Bajrami was killed. Is that what you

23 yesterday said?

24 A. Yes. It is completely accurate.

25 Q. In the statement you have given on the 4th of November, 2004, you

Page 948

1 have described that event in the following manner: "Some of the police

2 officers have shouted from the yard, 'Who is Sulejman? He's free to go.

3 He can join his mother.' Sulejman got up and started walking. I think it

4 was a mistake that he went towards the street and not towards the yard."

5 Is it correct that you have said this in the statement that you

6 have given to the investigator of the Prosecutor?

7 A. It is not wrong that he walked along the road and didn't come

8 back. Maybe the interpreter didn't take down every single word I said.

9 Whatever I said in the statement is accurate from what concerns his mother

10 to him, and there are live arguments to prove what I am saying.

11 Everything is accurate. Even if I were to write everything in the order

12 of events, the paper wouldn't suffice to write everything. There are many

13 ways of describing or writing down an event.

14 Q. But you will agree with me that these two statements are not

15 identical?

16 A. They are identical. For me, they are identical. Maybe not for

17 you.

18 Q. It is correct, you could agree with me that actually, Sulejman

19 Bajrami was trying to escape, and only after that he was shot at?

20 A. No. He didn't try to escape. This is not true. Sulejman Bajrami

21 didn't go anywhere. They killed him without any reason at all. He didn't

22 have the strength to leave. It was impossible. It was impossible for him

23 to leave. He didn't stand a chance. He was deliberately killed.

24 Q. Tell me, Mr. M-012, could you tell me, what position was his

25 father in, Aziz Bajrami?

Page 949

1 A. He was near him, near all of us, actually, outside the gate of the

2 yard. We were all lying down.

3 Q. So you were all lying down. So when you said yesterday that you

4 were ordered to walk and that you started walking, which is written on

5 page 85, that statement of yours would not be correct at that time because

6 you were all still lying down?

7 A. Would you allow me to describe everything in detail, whatever

8 happened? Is it possible for me to describe the van, exactly what

9 happened?

10 Q. Could you please tell me now, how was Aziz Bajrami wounded?

11 A. Yes. Aziz Bajrami said, "Oh, my son, they killed you," and he was

12 shot at and wounded simply because of these few words. He said to his

13 son, "Oh, son, say something to me. They killed you." That was the only

14 thing he did that he was killed.

15 Q. If I were to say that Aziz Bajrami, in his statement of the 6th of

16 November, 2004, said to the investigator of the Prosecution that: "At the

17 moment when I was hit in my hand, I was kneeling. My head was on the

18 ground, and my both hands were in front of my head when the bullet caught

19 me," and that his son was hit after that, would that statement be a

20 different one to the one that you are now giving?

21 A. I think this is true, but he will come here. He will explain to

22 you in greater detail. This is what I know. This is what I'm telling

23 you.

24 Q. I will now, Mr. M-012 - and we may move into a public session -

25 ask you several questions that are not directly related to the event.

Page 950

1 Tell me, is it correct that the brothers, Rafiz and Shefajet Bajrami, were

2 members of the NLA?

3 A. No.

4 MR. SAXON: Your Honours.


6 MR. SAXON: I'm just wondering, would it be helpful to identify a

7 time frame that my learned colleague is speaking about, or is she asking

8 ever?

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In 2001, before the events in

10 Ljuboten.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Could you answer this question?

15 A. Repeat it, please. I didn't hear you.

16 Q. That the brothers Bajrami, Rafiz and Shefajet, were members of the

17 NLA before August of 2001.

18 A. No.

19 Q. Were the brothers, Rafiz and Shefajet Bajrami, members of the NLA

20 after August of 2001?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Were the brothers Bajrami, Rafiz and Shefajet, inside the village

23 on that day?

24 A. [No interpretation] .

25 Q. If I was to tell you that Shefajet was a member of the special

Page 951

1 unit of Commander Teli -- excuse me, your answer to the previous question

2 was not recorded.

3 I have asked you whether the brothers Bajrami [as interpreted] and

4 Rafiz were after the events, whether they were in the village that day.

5 Your answer was not recorded in the transcript.

6 A. No. Rafiz was in Italy, Shefajet was in Kosovo, working there.

7 Q. If I were to suggest to you, Mr. M-012, that Shefajet Bajrami,

8 nicknamed "Shef" belonged to the special unit of Commander Teli, who was

9 murdered [as interpreted] at the beginning of August in Skopje, you could

10 recall that he was actually a member of the NLA?

11 A. No, I don't believe this. I didn't see this with my own eyes. He

12 didn't say anything to me. Nobody said anything, and I didn't have the

13 right to ask what he was doing. I think it's everyone's right to do

14 whatever he or she wants. It's not my duty to ask about such things, what

15 they are doing, what are they engaged in. But I do know for sure that

16 Shefajet was working in Kosovo and Rafiz was in Italy, working too. This

17 is all I can say.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Your Honour, with your leave, page 44, line 10, my question about

20 the demise of the Commander Teli was translated as "murdered." Well, I

21 think it would be correct to say "killed." Thank you.

22 Q. Now, you have answered again that to your knowledge, Shefajet at

23 that time was in Italy; is that correct?

24 A. Rafiz was in Italy; Shefajet was in Kosovo. He went there to

25 work.

Page 952

1 Q. If in some of the statements one of his brothers would claim the

2 opposite from you, he would then not be telling the truth; is that

3 correct?

4 A. What do you think? What do you mean? I don't understand your

5 question.

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 MR. SAXON: Your Honours.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

18 MR. SAXON: I believe we are in public session; and if that's the

19 case, I believe the name of someone needs to be redacted on page 50 from

20 perhaps lines 8 to 13 and, again, perhaps 14 to 18.


22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, and I

23 apologise. We do not have on our screen the logo telling us whether we

24 are in a public or a closed session at all times, so I thank my colleague

25 for this caution.

Page 953

1 Q. Tell me, Mr. M-012, is it correct that after the killing of Teli,

2 his commander, Arusha, in revenge for this killing, placed the mine at

3 Ljubotenski Bacila, together with his associates?

4 A. I was an ordinary citizen. You should know I was not a member of

5 any organisation or political party. There was no way I could know plans

6 either of NLA or the Macedonian army. I was just a random victim, so

7 please don't ask me such provocative questions. How can I know secrets of

8 an army? I was, as I said, a rank-and-file citizen, so I don't know

9 anything about what you are putting to me.

10 I was simply worried about my family affairs. Had I been

11 interested in national questions, I would have been there, not staying in

12 my own house and being treated and subjected to such inhumane treatment.

13 So I kindly ask you to know this, that I am a rank-and-file loyal citizen

14 worried only about his family and thinking about how to feed his family.

15 Q. And in relation to this, one more last question: Were you aware

16 then, on the 10th, 11th and 12th of August, 2001, that Shefajet, with a

17 group of the Commander Arusha, participated in the placing of the mine,

18 and that together with two armed people arrived to the village of

19 Ljuboten?

20 A. I told you, I don't know that he was in the army, let alone to

21 know that he has put a mine or not. I was not in a position to be told

22 such things, to be told secrets, or what else. I was a simple -- an

23 ordinary citizen. This is not right. This is not accurate. I don't know

24 Commander, as you are saying, Arusha, or Teli, or I don't know Commander

25 Rabbit. I don't know these persons. I've come here to tell you what I

Page 954

1 know personally.

2 Q. I think that you could answer my questions briefly, saying "yes"

3 or "no," and it is not necessary for you to make elaborate explanations if

4 that is not really necessary.

5 I would like to ask you now, Mr. M-012, to confirm that it is

6 correct that while you were inside the police station Mirkovci that

7 because of the fact that some of the detainees did not feel well, the

8 police has twice -- has invited doctors to examine you twice?

9 A. He called, but they were not doctors.

10 Q. When the situation of Atulla Qaili deteriorated, then the police

11 called an ambulance again and he was transferred to hospital; is that

12 correct?

13 A. I don't know where he was transferred. When police came, Atulla

14 Qaili was almost dead. In my opinion, I could take him for a dead person.

15 Q. My learned colleague showed you the photograph that you recognised

16 as the photograph of the late Atulla Qaili. You personally did not know

17 who has taken this photograph and when?

18 A. No. I was in jail at that time.

19 Q. But in the photograph you were shown, you were able to see a cut,

20 a slash across the neck that would indicate that a postmortem was

21 performed on the body. Have you seen that on the photograph?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Also, you know that several days later, because his name was

24 incorrectly written, he was transferred from the mortuary and buried in

25 Ljuboten; is that correct?

Page 955

1 A. His name -- last name was deliberately changed.

2 Q. The photograph that you were shown also displays the postmortem

3 lividity that is developed in any body of a dead person after a certain

4 time; are you aware of that?

5 A. On this photograph, yes. As you say, if you say that that's

6 correct, then we'll leave it that way, but personally I don't know where

7 and by whom was this photograph taken.

8 Q. You have, answering my question, stated that, yes, the police

9 called an ambulance, but that those who arrived were not doctors. You

10 never verified the identity or the expertise of those persons who came

11 there in any way?

12 A. They didn't do anything. They just took his pulse, and among

13 themselves they said, "It's over with him. He's dying." I don't know

14 where they took him. Had they been real doctors with a real ambulance

15 car, they would have had the appropriate equipment with them. I didn't

16 see any sign that would indicate that they were doctors.

17 Q. But I have asked you not about the fact when Atulla Qaili was

18 taken to hospital, but before that, when doctors arrived, called by the

19 police, those who examined you. You then stated that you did not believe

20 that those were doctors. Do you remember that?

21 A. No, they were not doctors, in my opinion; but they called them

22 doctors. They referred to them as doctors.

23 Q. When I asked you whether Atulla Qaili was transferred from the

24 mortuary somewhat later and buried only then because of the mistake in the

25 name, you stated that the change in the name was deliberate. Tell me, was

Page 956

1 it through some investigation that you are certain that someone changed

2 the name of Atulla Qaili deliberately?

3 A. He was at the police station; and pursuant to the methods and

4 procedures followed by the police, it would have been very easy for the

5 police to verify his identity, his full name and last name. The police

6 was in position to identify him, to know his exact name and last name, but

7 they didn't do that.

8 Q. Mr. M-012, when you went out of detention, you never filed

9 criminal charges against the persons who ill-treated you or against the

10 persons you indicated in your statements to the investigator or before

11 this court; is that correct?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Also, you have never asked your counsel to file criminal charges

14 against a person; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You never filed a report with the police, with the Prosecutor, or

17 any other body, noting the names of the persons who took you out of the

18 basement, ill-treated you, brought you to the police station Mirkovci, and

19 ill-treated you there; is that correct?

20 A. No. I did not file any charges against anyone.

21 Q. You personally considered that it was completely sufficient for

22 you to give a statement to the OSCE, the International Committee of the

23 Red Cross, or the investigators of this Tribunal, and that they will then

24 file such charges or reports on your behalf; is that correct?

25 A. I only told my story to these organisations that you mentioned in

Page 957

1 the latter part of your question, because I trusted them.

2 Q. And the last question: Since you did not trust Macedonian police,

3 after the events, you never wanted to discuss things with the Macedonian

4 police; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. M-012.

7 Your Honours, I have finished the examination of this witness.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Residovic.

9 Mr. Apostolski.

10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this witness will

11 be cross-examined by my colleague, co-counsel, Jasmina Zivkovic.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Indeed, thank you, yes.

13 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, considering that this

14 is the first time I'm addressing the Court, I wish to introduce myself.

15 My name is Jasmina Zivkovic, and together with my learned

16 colleague, Antonio Apostolski, I am the defence counsel for Mr. Boskoski.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Zivkovic.

18 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Today I will ask questions of

19 Witness M-012 regarding the events in the village in Ljuboten on the 10th

20 to 12th of August, 2001.

21 Cross-examination by Ms. Zivkovic:

22 Q. Witness M-012, you heard my name. I am defence counsel for Johan

23 Tarculovksi. I will now ask you some questions that my learned colleague,

24 Edina Residovic, did not ask.

25 Are you ready, Mr. M-012?

Page 958

1 A. You're most welcome.

2 Q. Tell me, what is your level of education?

3 A. I've completed eight years of primary school.

4 Q. Macedonian State has provided to you, free of charge, elementary

5 education, as to all the other citizens?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were educated in your native language, the Albanian?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You have also had the opportunity and the right to vote in the

10 free and direct elections in Macedonia; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And in the elections, after the establishment of the Autonomous

13 State of Macedonia, in the Parliament there were members of Albanian

14 nationality there; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. It is also correct that in the government, there are Ministers of

17 Albanian nationality?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Was it so also in the period of 2001, during these events?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Mr. M-012, tell me, do you speak the Macedonian language?

22 A. Do I speak Macedonian?

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. You have a house where you live together with your wife and your

Page 959

1 children; is that correct?

2 A. Yes, and with my brother. Two brothers live in one house.

3 Q. And in August 2001, you were living in the same house with your

4 brother and his family?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Today, when you discussed things with my learned colleague, Edina

7 Residovic, you explained to her that the weapons were only a matter of

8 tradition of the Albanian ethnicity in the past. Tell me, do you own some

9 weapons now maybe?

10 A. No. I never possessed any weapon, and I don't even wish to

11 possess any in the future.

12 Q. Could you agree with me that after the conflict, many people in

13 Ljuboten procured weapons?

14 A. I don't have information about this matter.

15 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. Could we now move

16 into a private session?

17 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

18 [Private session]

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 960











11 Page 960 redacted. Private session.















Page 961

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

11 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. M-012, can we agree that the village of Ljuboten is a small

13 community where everyone knows everyone else?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Today, you stated to my learned colleague, the Prosecutor, that

16 you were never a member of a terrorist group. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were your brothers maybe members or supporters of NLA at any time?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Were they maybe members or supporters of another terrorist

21 organisation?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you know any person from Ljuboten who was a member of NLA in

24 August 2001?

25 A. No.

Page 962

1 Q. All right. Sir, I will now ask you some questions related

2 specifically to the events in the village of Ljuboten in the period

3 between the 10th and the 12th of August.

4 On the Friday, the 10th of August, you were awakened by the

5 shootings around 8.00 in the morning; can we agree with this?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And it is correct that the village was shelled?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You must know where the shells fell inside the village of Ljuboten

10 on the Friday, the 10th of August?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the

13 panoramic photograph of the village of Ljuboten, ERN number N005-7605.

14 Q. Mr. M-012, do you see this photograph in front of you?

15 A. Yes.

16 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask for the assistance of

17 the court assistant? I apologise. Could I ask for the assistance of the

18 court assistant? Please help the witness.

19 Q. Mr. M-012, could you mark on this photograph the places where the

20 shells fell on the Friday morning, 10th of August?

21 MR. SAXON: Your Honour.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Saxon.

23 MR. SAXON: I rise only to assist, perhaps, my colleague. I have

24 been told that it is not possible, for technical reasons, to annotate this

25 panorama. Have I been misinformed?

Page 963

1 JUDGE PARKER: We believe it is possible.

2 MR. SAXON: Very well. I've been misinformed.

3 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So, Witness M-012, my question was whether you were able to mark

5 on this photograph the places where the shells fell on the Friday morning,

6 the 10th of August, 2001.

7 A. Could you please enlarge this photograph? That would enable me to

8 see the houses better, and then I will be in a position to tell you whose

9 house it is. I know where the first shell fell, where this or that person

10 was killed, where the other house was shelled. I know them.

11 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we enlarge this photograph a

12 little bit, please.

13 Q. Are you able to see better now?

14 A. A little bit better. Approximately, now I will tell you the

15 locations, although not 100 per cent accurately.

16 Q. Okay. I will just ask you to mark the places by writing the

17 numbers from 1 onwards; and when you mark, please tell us what is it --

18 what is there in that location.

19 A. May I begin?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Can I mention the names in public of the owners of the houses?


23 A. This is a house of Hadji Ismaili. This is where the first shell

24 fell. It should be approximately here near the mosque, although I cannot

25 see it very clearly.

Page 964

1 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. I apologise. I think we are not able to see on the photograph the

3 things that you are marking.

4 A. I'm not able to see it clearly, either.

5 Q. Could you put the number 1 at the first house that you marked and

6 tell us whose house it is?

7 A. I can't see the exact house. I cannot define the location where

8 this house is. This photograph is not that clear to me.

9 Q. Okay. Could you approximately --

10 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Zivkovic, could I suggest, it's virtually time

11 now for the second break, that the Chamber has the break, that in that

12 time you might consider how to deal with this?

13 Quite obviously, this picture is one that doesn't enable the

14 witness or any of us to really see a particular house closely. It may be

15 that if half of the photograph is enlarged to the full size of the screen

16 and then separately the other half at a later time, with the witness

17 marking each half, it may be more practical. You might think about that

18 during the break and discuss it with the court staff, and we will resume,

19 then, at 1.00.

20 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 1.00 p.m.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Zivkovic.

24 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

25 I think that we caught a larger part of that photograph --

Page 965

1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: A part of the

2 photograph has been enlarged.

3 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Could you please circle this photograph and mark with numbers

5 places where the shells fell on the Friday, 10 August?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I don't know whether you understood the question I'm asking you

8 about, Friday in the morning, 10 August.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could you please tell us, what is there on the place that you are

11 marking, and please mark all the spots with numbers, starting from 1.

12 A. The first shell fell on the house of Haxhi Ismaili, and this is

13 the house, at least the way I see it. [Marks]

14 Q. Was that the only place on this part of the photograph?

15 A. There are other places. Shall I pinpoint where they are?

16 Q. Please mark everything that you see on that part of the

17 photograph.

18 A. Okay. It is approximately here. [Marks]

19 Q. What was there?

20 A. Shells fell there.

21 Q. Could you please tell us, what was there at the place that you

22 marked?

23 A. A house.

24 Q. Do you know maybe whose house was it?

25 A. Yes, I do. Shall I say the name?

Page 966

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. The house of Hahxi Meta.

3 Q. Mr. M-012, when you would not be able to see any more places on

4 this part of the photograph, please let us know so we can switch the

5 photographs.

6 A. You may switch it.

7 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Before doing that, I would ask the

8 Court to tender this photograph as part of the evidence.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D10 [Realtime transcript read in error

11 "2D"], Your Honours.

12 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I think that the

13 record did not have the entire number of the evidence. It should be 2D10.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that is correct. 2D10.

15 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] .

16 Q. Mr. M-012, do you have in front of you the other part of the

17 photograph?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you circle and mark with numbers here, as well, in the same

20 manner as you did in the previous photograph, and to also tell us what

21 used to be there on those places?

22 JUDGE PARKER: I suggest you commence numbering with number 3.

23 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

24 A. This is where the mosque is. [Marks] A shell fell here, too.

25 This is the house, the wall (redacted). [Marks] This is

Page 967

1 where Haxhi Ali was killed, number 4. [Marks]

2 JUDGE PARKER: We will redact the reference to (redacted)

3 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. Could we change the photograph now, or do you have more?

5 A. Yes, you can.

6 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this part of the

7 photograph in evidence.

8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D11, Your Honours.

10 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we switch the photograph?

11 Could we move the photograph from the mosque towards the right?

12 Q. You could continue marking here, starting with number 5.

13 A. [Marks] This is the house. May I mention the name in public?


15 A. The house of Vejsel. This is number 5. [Marks] This is the house

16 of Nuredin, number 6. [Marks] You may move the picture.

17 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I seek to tender this

18 part of the photograph in evidence.

19 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D12, Your Honours.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The house with number 7 belongs to

22 Haxhi Dalipi. [Marks] I don't recall the other houses. I'm not sure

23 about them.

24 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I seek to tender this

25 part of the photograph in evidence as well.

Page 968

1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D13, Your Honours.

3 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Would that be all or is there

4 another part of the photograph remaining? I think there's one more part

5 outstanding.

6 I apologise. It is all right.

7 Q. Mr. M-012, you said that the shelling continued until the Sunday

8 morning; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That means that the village was shelled also on the Saturday

11 morning or through the entire day; is that correct?

12 A. There were interruptions in shelling, but, generally, shelling

13 went on from Friday to Sunday.

14 Q. Do you maybe know the places where the shells fell on Saturday,

15 the 11th of August? Let me clarify. Would you be able to identify in the

16 same way onto the photograph as you indicated about the Friday, 11th of

17 August?

18 A. I didn't understand your question. Could you repeat it, please?

19 Q. Would you be able, if I were to show the photograph again from the

20 very beginning, as we did it, to show us where the shells fell on the

21 Saturday, 11th of August?

22 A. For Friday, I showed you. For Saturday, I cannot be very

23 accurate.

24 Q. Thank you. Mr. M-012, can we agree that the power went off at

25 10.30 on the Sunday, 12th of August?

Page 969

1 A. I didn't hear your question.

2 Q. Could we agree that the power went off at 10.30 on the Sunday,

3 12th of August?

4 A. It was interrupted on Sunday, but I didn't think of looking at the

5 time.

6 Q. Thank you. In your statement, you have said that you have seen

7 what the members of the Macedonia security forces were wearing on them,

8 what uniforms they wore. Could you tell us, what weapons were they

9 carrying?

10 A. The police forces had automatic rifles in their hands.

11 Q. Do you remember any insignia on their uniforms?

12 A. They had, but I didn't have time to look at them properly, as you

13 are asking me to describe to you in detail.

14 Q. No, thank you. Is it true that together with the others, the

15 other members of the village, you were in touch via mobile telephones?

16 A. No. I didn't have a mobile telephone.

17 Q. Does it mean that none of the other present persons in the

18 basement of your house had a mobile telephone?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Could you be more precise? Does it mean that they did not have or

21 that they did have?

22 A. They didn't have mobile phones on them.

23 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we move to a private session

24 for a moment?

25 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

Page 970

1 [Private session]

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

23 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. M-012, the Macedonian security forces, when they entered the

25 yard, you said they ordered you to leave the basement; is that correct?

Page 971

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. To my learned colleague, the Prosecutor, you said today, and also

3 you said today to my learned colleague, Edina Residovic, you said that the

4 members of the security forces forced you to leave the basement through

5 the window and that you wanted to use the door; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it correct that the door was blocked with boxes and that for

8 that reason you went out through the window?

9 A. It is true that there were boxes at the door, but they were not

10 that heavy. We could remove them, but they didn't allow us to do so.

11 Q. Could you tell me, who put those boxes in front of the door?

12 A. We, we did. Maybe I was among those who did that.

13 Q. Okay. Once you left the house, you were told to lie on the

14 ground; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Are you referring to both men and women?

17 A. Only to the men.

18 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the

19 statement given by OSCE [as interpreted]? I think that this is for a

20 private session. I apologise.

21 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The statement given

23 to the OSCE by the witness.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 972











11 Pages 972-974 redacted. Private session.















Page 975

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

19 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. M-012, when you started going from your house towards the

21 Ljubanci, were you then accompanied by bulletproof vehicles --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Armoured vehicles.

23 A. I didn't see them.

24 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. While walking towards Ljubanci, haven't you seen any other

Page 976

1 vehicle?

2 A. Our eyes were closed. We didn't see anything.

3 Q. Thank you. When you were taken to the house called "House of

4 Brace," you were again ordered to lie on the ground, face down; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you tell us, how did the persons who ordered you to do this

8 look like?

9 A. I didn't see them.

10 Q. Thank you. I have just a few more questions for you. After that,

11 you were taken to the Mirkovci police station, then to the court, and then

12 to the Shutka Prison; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Today, you stated before this Court that you were beaten in the

15 prison as well; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] We need to go into a private

18 session once again briefly.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 977











11 Page 977 redacted. Private session.















Page 978

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

Page 979

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

3 Thank you, Ms. Zivkovic.

4 Do I take it there is re-examination, Mr. Saxon?

5 MR. SAXON: I would say five to ten minutes' worth, Your Honour,

6 yes.

7 JUDGE PARKER: If you can manage it in five minutes, we can

8 probably squeeze it on to the tape, and that is possible because there is

9 no court following us.

10 MR. SAXON: I'm going to do the best I can.

11 Re-examination by Mr. Saxon:

12 Q. Witness M-012, you mentioned that on that Sunday in Ljuboten, when

13 the police arrived at your house, one of the elders present in the

14 basement showed a white cloth.

15 Can you tell us, through what part of the house was that cloth

16 shown to the police, that white cloth?

17 A. The white cloth was shown as he took his hand outside the basement

18 window so that they could see it.

19 Q. Moving on to when you were in -- excuse me. My learned colleague

20 asked you some questions about the photograph of the dead body of Atulla

21 Qaili that I showed to you earlier today, and she mentioned the fact that

22 there was a postmortem cut or incision along the neck.

23 Can you just help us, please? Apart from that incision from the

24 postmortem, in that photograph, would you say Mr. Atulla Qaili looks

25 better, worse, or the same as he did when you last saw him in the garage

Page 980

1 at Mirkovci?

2 A. This is a question for me?

3 Q. That's who I'm speaking to you. I'm speaking to you.

4 A. The photo of Atulla Qaili shows that he's badly -- was mutilated.

5 Every one of us can look at the photo and observe what he went through.

6 Q. I'm sorry, Witness. Obviously, my question was not clear to you.

7 The photograph that you saw today, did that photograph show how Mr. Qaili

8 looked when you saw him in the basement, or did he look different in the

9 photograph?

10 A. He looked different.

11 Q. How so? How did he look different in the photograph?

12 A. Because he seems to have been incised. I don't know by who. I

13 want his photo, the photo of the dead body of Atulla Qaili, to be seen by

14 everyone, everyone to look at the picture.

15 Q. Witness, we do not have time to hear your comments about what you

16 would like. Apart from the incision on the neck, did the photo look very

17 different from the man you last saw in the basement at the Mirkovci police

18 station?

19 A. He was the same.

20 Q. You were asked about who you -- about the fact that the Minister

21 of Justice in 2001 was an ethnic Albanian. I want to ask you about the

22 time when you were in the court and you were speaking to three people

23 there. What language were they speaking with you?

24 A. Macedonian.

25 Q. Do you know what ethnicity these three persons were?

Page 981

1 A. Macedonian.

2 Q. My colleague asked you whether you ever wanted to discuss what

3 happened to you in 2001 with the Macedonian police, and you said, "No."

4 My question for you is: While you were in Shutka Prison, did

5 anyone from the police knock on your cell door and ask you to speak with

6 them about these events?

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this question has

8 already been answered, because my colleague has asked this in his direct

9 examination.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, that's probably right, Ms. Residovic, but

11 carry on, Mr. Saxon, in the interests of speed.


13 Q. Has anyone from the police attempted to contact you to ask you

14 about what happened to you in Ljuboten in August 2001 or afterward?

15 A. No.

16 Q. To your knowledge, has anyone contacted -- anyone from the

17 Macedonian police contacted the village leader in Ljuboten to try to

18 arrange to speak with you, if you know?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You mentioned that the home where you and others were sheltering

21 on the 12th of August, 2001 had boxes blocking the door. Just very

22 briefly, why were those boxes put by the door or behind the door?

23 A. They were boxes full of clothes, and we put them behind the door

24 to feel safer, because the door was a thin door and we were afraid of

25 shelling. That's why. We wanted to make it more solid.

Page 982

1 Q. My learned colleague --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


4 Q. My colleague, during her cross-examination, asked you about

5 weapons that were allegedly found in the village of Ljuboten in October

6 2005, and you were asked to explain who put those weapons there.

7 Can you explain to us, please, now, if you know, how those weapons

8 were there in Ljuboten?

9 A. The Macedonian police intentionally placed them there in order for

10 them to have a case, because one day before the children of the village

11 were playing in that house. If there were weapons there, the children

12 would have found out earlier. It was simply a concoction.

13 Q. This was in October 2005. Can you recall whether this alleged or

14 so-called discovery of weapons in Ljuboten occurred at a time, that month

15 of October, when representatives of this Tribunal were in or visiting the

16 village of Ljuboten?

17 A. I think so, but I am not very sure. But I know that they came

18 afterwards and that they asked us, and we explained what we thought.

19 Q. One last question. The pardon that you received from the

20 Macedonian government while you were in prison, do you remember

21 approximately when you received that pardon and were allowed to leave?

22 A. Yes, I do remember. On the 10th of December, it was an afternoon.

23 I didn't know I was going to be released by the guards, who threw the door

24 open and said, "Go home. You are the ones we think you are, but it was

25 thanks to the president that you are released."

Page 983

1 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I have no further questions.

2 Thank you.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon, thank you very much.

4 You'll be pleased to know that that concludes your questioning.

5 The Chamber would thank you for your assistance and thank you for coming

6 here to The Hague to tell your story. You are now, of course, free to

7 leave and to return to your home, and the Court Officer will show you out

8 in a moment, after the Judges have left.

9 We must now adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow at 9.00

10 a.m.

11 Thank you again, sir.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours,

13 you and The Hague Tribunal, and let justice prevail. Thank you.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1:59 p.m.,

16 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 17th day of May,

17 2007, at 9.00 a.m.