1 Thursday, 17 May 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.
7 We understand there may be a procedural matter before we proceed
9 MR. METTRAUX: Good morning Your Honour.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, Mr. Mettraux.
11 MR. METTRAUX: Good morning, Your Honours.
12 Very briefly, yesterday was the deadline for the Defence to file
13 its response to Prosecution application for consolidated statements. The
14 response was indeed prepared and ready for filing yesterday night.
15 Unfortunately, due to our own forgetfulness, we failed to send it last
16 night on time. We apologise for the forgetfulness of counsel and hope
17 that the Chamber will show some understanding for that matter. This is
18 all we wish to say at this stage.
19 We will also file the Defence response, this time 15 days in
20 advance, for the Prosecution application to submit a third report for
21 Mr. Eichner. That's all for us.
22 Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon, is there any concern.
24 MR. SAXON: No concern on that matter, Your Honour. While we're
25 discussing procedural matters, with your leave, I also have one to
2 JUDGE PARKER: Can we just say we appreciate frankness,
3 Mr. Mettraux, and you may be sure that we will take notice of the filing.
4 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
6 MR. SAXON: Could we very briefly move into private session to
7 discuss a matter which involves some witnesses, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
9 [Private session]
11 Page 986 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
3 MR. SAXON: And, Your Honours, the next witness will be led by
4 colleague, Matthias Neuner.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
6 Can I just confirm that the two witnesses you were speaking were
7 programmed to be here on Thursday, the 24th.
8 MR. SAXON: That's correct, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE PARKER: We've got the right ones. Thank you.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning, sir.
12 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning. When you have put the head phones
14 on, would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card that is given
15 to you now.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. I solemnly declare
17 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 WITNESS: ISMAIL RAMADANI
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're most welcome. Thank you.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Now, I believe Mr. Neuner has some questions for
23 you, sir
24 Examination by Mr. Neuner:
25 Q. Good morning, Witness.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. Your name is Ismail Ramadani?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And your ethnicity is Albanian?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you live in the village of Ljuboten in Macedonia?
7 A. Yes.
8 THE INTERPRETER: If the witness's other microphone can be turned
9 on. Thank you.
10 MR. NEUNER: Could the second microphone please be turned on, of
11 the witness.
12 Q. Mr. Ramadani, you provided two written statements to the Office of
13 the Prosecutor of the ICTY, did you?
14 A. Da. [No interpretation]
15 Q. And in April of this year, a female colleague and myself, we met
16 you in Ljuboten?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And on that occasion, you signed another statement containing
19 parts of those earlier statements?
20 A. Yes, that's correct. There was some mistakes.
21 Q. I will address that in a moment.
22 MR. NEUNER: If I may ask the usher to take the following
23 documents to the witness, please. The first statement could please be
24 placed on the ELMO, please.
25 If could you please zoom in or show the signature also.
1 Q. Mr. Ramadani, on the first page on the bottom in the middle, do
2 you recognise your signature?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And upon providing that statement, you signed each and every page
5 of that statement?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. NEUNER: Mr. Usher, if you could please turn to page 16 of
8 that statement.
9 Q. There's a witness declaration here, or a witness acknowledgment.
10 Did you sign that acknowledgment, Mr. Ramadani?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. NEUNER: If the statement could please be removed and the
13 second document shown on the ELMO.
14 Q. And once you were giving us this first statement, Mr. Ramadani,
15 you had the opportunity to provide corrections and additions?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. And all these additions and corrections were noted down in this
18 second document.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And if you please look at the on first page at the signature, is
21 that your signature?
22 A. Yes, that's my signature.
23 Q. And you signed each and every page of that document?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. NEUNER: And if you could please turn, Mr. Usher, to page 11.
1 Q. Mr. Ramadani, did you sign here on this page on the upper part,
2 the witness acknowledgment?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And on the lower part as well, if you may have a look?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you very much.
7 A. You're welcome.
8 Q. And, together, do both statements contain what you would say if
9 you would testify today in this courtroom?
10 A. Yes. They both contain what I would say today.
11 MR. NEUNER: I would ask to tender both statements into evidence,
12 please, under -- under Rule 92 ter, please.
13 Your Honours, we have prepared binders containing some exhibits,
14 and if I could impose one more time of the goodwill of the usher to hand
15 them over to the Court.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Can I say, Mr. Neuner, that the object of the order
17 of the Chamber was to have one statement which was the 92 ter statement.
18 We come close to having two statements again.
19 MR. NEUNER: Yes. We made internally the decision to merge both
20 statements, meaning both prior statements of this witness, into the
21 consolidated 92 ter statement; and upon seeing this witness, he had to
22 make certain additions or corrections.
23 The second statement, which is in front of the Chamber, makes
24 explicit reference to each paragraph or each relevant paragraph of this
25 consolidated statement, and, therefore, we kept it separate so as to
1 indicate what the 92 ter statement is and what the additions and
2 corrections this witness had on the day we saw him are.
3 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux, sorry.
6 MR. METTRAUX: If we may assist, I can indicate that we have
7 mentioned in our filing of today, which should have been of yesterday,
8 that we would not object to the addendum and corrigendum being tendered
9 pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
10 JUDGE PARKER: It does occur to us that it may be convenient to
11 the Defence to be able to readily see where there have been changes in the
12 last week or two.
13 MR. METTRAUX: Indeed, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Very well. The two statements will be
15 received separately.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Statement with ERN N006-4049 will become Exhibit
17 P188. Statement with N0006-4037 will become Exhibit P189, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Mr. Neuner.
19 MR. NEUNER: If I could please ask that the statement is to be
20 admitted under seal because this witness mentions also some of the
21 protected witnesses.
22 JUDGE PARKER: Both will be received under seal.
23 Could we indicate as a procedural matter for the future we're
24 conscious that one of the effects of the 92 ter procedure, and for that
25 matter 92 bis with cross-examination, and any tendering of a
1 straightforward 92 bis statement, one effect is that members of the public
2 present in court and members of the wider public who may be taking notice
3 of these proceedings have no indication of the general effect of the
4 evidence of the witness.
5 The Chamber is aware that other Chambers follow a procedure of
6 asking the party tendering the statement to make a very concise summary
7 orally by counsel of the essential points of the statement that is
9 We think there are advantages to the wider public in that being
10 down; and as long as the statement is concise, it will not introduce any
11 significant use of time, and we would therefore want to adopt that
12 procedure. We realise it will be necessary for a little time to be
13 allowed for thought to be given to a summary by counsel. So we don't ask
14 that it be done at this moment, Mr. Neuner. But perhaps even tomorrow it
15 may be possible for that to be observed with witnesses that may be called
16 tomorrow and thereafter.
17 That will, of course, apply to any Defence witness that is
18 following the 92 bis or ter procedure as well, looking ahead.
19 Yes, Mr. Neuner.
20 MR. NEUNER: Your Honour, we would be in a position to give a
21 brief summary; however, this witness has been at one location which I
22 would mention only in private session. Is this agreeable to you?
23 JUDGE PARKER: It would be excellent. Thank you. When we come to
24 a certain location, we can take that in private session and then move back
25 into public, if that is what you have in mind.
1 MR. NEUNER: Thank you. I will proceed.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
3 MR. NEUNER: Mr. Ramadani has been on the weekend, the 10th and
4 12th of August, 2001, in Ljuboten. And on the Sunday, the 12th of August,
5 2001, he has been at the cellar of one house, which I will mention in
6 private session.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Could that be done at the end of your summary?
9 MR. NEUNER: It will be, Your Honours.
10 And he was there together with a group of ten persons, and the
11 forces of the Republic of Macedonia did enter the yard and took this group
12 out of the cellar or asked the group to come out of the cellar and
13 searched them. The group was taken to a ramp in front of the compound,
14 mistreated there, and asked to walk to a checkpoint at the border between
15 Ljuboten and Ljubanci. And at this point in time, the witness believes to
16 have seen Mr. Boskoski.
17 From there, the witness was brought to the police station in
18 Mirkovci, and thereafter he was brought to the hospital, the city hospital
19 in Skopje. And from the city hospital in Skopje, he was brought to the
20 court in Skopje, and thereafter to the Sutka prison. And on 10 December
21 2001, he was released from Sutka prison.
22 If we could now move into private session, I would just mention
23 the location.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
25 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
12 Carry on.
13 MR. NEUNER:
14 Q. Witness, was this an adequate summary of your testimony, which I
15 just tried to provide?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. Thank you very much.
18 A. You're welcome.
19 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, we have prepared binders containing
20 exhibits. If I could impose one more time on the goodwill of the usher to
21 hand them over to the Court and to the witness.
22 If we could please move to tab 1.
23 Q. Witness, do you recognise what you see in this photo?
24 A. Yes, I do. This is a weekend house called Brace's House. This is
25 where Boskoski was. The gates at the time were own.
1 MR. NEUNER: For the record, this is exhibit with 65 ter number
2 199. ERN number of that photo was N004-4571.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Is it not already an exhibit?
4 MR. NEUNER: I have more information that the 65 ter number
6 JUDGE PARKER: Our concern is with exhibit numbers in this trial.
7 I think it is an exhibit with some markings. If it's not been separately
8 tendered, well, then, we will receive it again.
9 MR. NEUNER: It is annotated by protected witness M-017, so if I
10 could kindly ask to tender that again.
11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
12 MR. NEUNER: Could you please --
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P190, Your Honours.
14 MR. NEUNER: Then I would move on to the next exhibit. This is
15 tab 3 your binders, 65 ter number is 490. The English ERN number is
16 N005-0480 till N005-0481.
17 Could this be displayed in e-court, please.
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 JUDGE PARKER: This is already Exhibit P108, I believe,
20 Mr. Neuner. As soon as that technical difficulty which keeps reoccurring
21 is corrected, we will have it on the screen.
22 MR. NEUNER: We can also work from the hard copies. If the usher
23 could please take the document from tab 3. Tab 3. Tab 3, yes. Thank
25 Q. Witness, this is a document from Cair police department. Have you
1 seen that document before?
2 A. No.
3 Q. If I would tell you that on the first page in the middle your name
4 Ismail Ramadani is mentioned, do you find your name?
5 A. I can see my name, yes. But the document contains misinformation,
6 and the content of this document has no value for me.
7 Q. I will come to that in a moment. If you could please take this
8 step by step, Witness.
9 You found your name, yes?
10 A. Yes, I did. Here it is.
11 MR. NEUNER: Can we please move into private session, Your
13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
14 [Private session]
11 Page 997 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
7 MR. NEUNER: If we could please move to tab 2, the photo, with the
8 ERN N004-5201, 65 ter number 199.18.
9 Q. Do you recognise this picture?
10 A. Yes, I do. This is the Mirkovci police station.
11 Q. And --
12 A. We were brought here, in the garage of this police station.
13 Q. Thank you. You're pointing at the right garage of the two?
14 A. In the first one, to the right.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. NEUNER: If could I ask -- if I could ask to tender this
17 document into evidence, please.
18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P191, Your Honours.
20 MR. NEUNER: If you could please move to tab 4, 65 ter number is
21 220. The ERN number is N000-5176, and we need to look, please, at the
22 third page of it.
23 Q. This is a medical report from the General Hospital Skopje,
24 mentioning your name. Do you find your name on the upper part?
25 A. Yes, it's here.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Residovic.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Since there are some problems in
4 e-court, we are not able to see the documents that my learned colleague is
5 showing to the witness at all. They are being received. We don't think
6 we will have any complaints on that, but we simply could not see what the
7 witness is shown and what is tendered.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. I know that attention is being given to
9 the technical problem at the moment.
10 MR. NEUNER: We can place the document on the ELMO so it is by
11 ELMO technology available. If could I please ask the usher to place the
12 third page after that document on the ELMO.
13 Q. On the upper left-hand side, you said already you find your name,
14 Ismail Ramadani, there, yes?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And it states here you were admitted on the 13th of August, 2001?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Admitted to the hospital?
19 A. Yes, that's correct.
20 Q. And if we look at the first main paragraph, it mentions there that
21 you had a serious fracture of the 2nd to the 8th ribs on your left side,
22 and fractures of the 7th, 8th, and 10th ribs on your right side. My
23 question is: Is the description of your injuries correct?
24 A. You men if it's correct? No. I wouldn't say so. I have more
25 ribs that were broken, and here it mentions only a few.
1 Q. It mentions the 2nd --
2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.
3 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my apologies for
5 But in the left-hand corner it says is that it is a medical report
6 from 14th of November, 2003, which is two years after the event. That's
7 what I want the to point out. Are these injuries that took place after
8 the event? You can see that in the lower left corner.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It is a report, on the face of it, provided on the
10 14th of November, 2003, dealing with the condition of the patient on the
11 13th of August, 2001, clearly prepared from hospital records. So on the
12 face of it, that is what it is. It is not dealing with injuries in
13 November 2003 but dealing with injuries in November 2001 [sic].
14 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I just wanted
15 to point out to this fact. Thank you.
16 JUDGE PARKER: The injuries I should have said were in August
17 2001. Thank you.
18 MR. NEUNER:
19 Q. If could you now move on to the second main paragraph, it says
20 here: "Bruising to the head," in the third line.
21 Did you, upon admission on the 13th of August, 2001, did you have
22 bruisings to your head?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. One bruising or bruisings?
25 A. Many, I would say. I would not be able to count them right now.
1 MR. NEUNER: If I can ask to have this document admitted into
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 192, Your Honours.
5 MR. NEUNER: If we can move to the next document under tab 5. ERN
6 number is N006-3719 till N006-3733, and the 65 ter number is 1004. Can it
7 be please be placed, the first page on the ELMO.
8 Since it is shown to the witness, we may wish to -- there is a
9 B/C/S part of this document at roughly the middle of that tab. We can
10 show the first page of this B/C/S or Macedonian original version, please.
11 This is after a green -- after a green paper. Yes. Thank you.
12 Q. Do you find your name on the upper left-hand side, Mr. Ramadani?
13 A. Yes, it's here.
14 Q. And below that it says that your father is Muharem and your mother
15 is Sabrije?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And it also talks about the fact that you were admitted on the
18 13th of August, 2001, in that document, to the hospital?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. NEUNER: If could I ask that this document is please be
21 admitted into evidence.
22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P193, Your Honours.
24 MR. NEUNER: If we could please move on to the next photograph in
25 tab 7 of the binder. ERN number -- there are two photographs of the first
1 photo. The ERN number of the first photo is N005-7597, and the 65 ter
2 number is 1029. If you could please move it a little bit upwards, Mr.
3 Usher, also out. Thank you.
4 Q. Who is depicted on this photograph?
5 A. It's me, and I still have the scars. And if you want me to, I can
6 show it to you.
7 Q. Thank you very much. We have the picture.
8 A. [No interpretation]
9 Q. Where is the scar?
10 MR. NEUNER: Can we please zoom in a little bit.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The scars are on my back. They have
12 been caused by a knife. There is a vertical and horizontal line.
13 MR. NEUNER: Can the technician please zoom in a little bit.
14 Thank you. Can you please move it up a little bit, the picture. Thank
16 Q. Can you please encircle -- Because it's difficult to see here on
17 the electronic display, could you please encircle with a marker the scar?
18 A. I can't see the marker.
19 Q. Could you please add today's date and your signature below?
20 A. Could you please remind what date it is today.
21 Q. The 17th of May, 2007.
22 A. Thank you.
23 MR. NEUNER: And if we could please move to the next picture with
24 ERN N005-7602.
25 Q. What do you see here?
1 A. I see the scars that was caused by knife.
2 Q. Can you please sign and add today's date.
3 A. [Marks]
4 MR. NEUNER: Can we please tender those pictures? Can I please
5 tender both pictures into evidence.
6 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.
7 THE REGISTRAR: The first picture, bearing ERN N005-7597 will
8 become Exhibit P194. The second picture, ERN N005-7602, will be Exhibit
9 P195, Your Honours.
10 MR. NEUNER:
11 Q. Finally, I wish to show you a short video excerpt. The exhibit
12 number is 21, 65 ter number 309.
13 If you recognise anybody, please tell us to stop and we will do
15 [Videotape played]
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you recognise anybody?
18 A. Yes. Ljube Boskoski and his body-guard.
19 Q. Where was Ljube Boskoski?
20 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber has not seen anything of this yet.
21 MR. NEUNER: Okay. We will play it again.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we could also see
23 that the witness has nothing on his screen although he responded to the
25 MR. NEUNER: Can this please be checked.
1 [Videotape played]
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Ljube Boskoski, and this
3 here is his body-guard.
4 MR. NEUNER:
5 Q. There were two persons shown on the video. Could you say where
6 was Ljube Boskoski and where was the body-guard?
7 A. Yes. Ljube Boskoski was the person who was pointing at something
8 with his finger.
9 Q. Was he on the right or on the left-hand side?
10 A. I think on the left-hand side, as I view it from here.
11 MR. NEUNER: Can we show that again, please.
12 [Videotape played]
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This one here is Ljube Boskoski,
14 while the other person is his body-guard.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Unfortunately, each person was at one time on the
16 left and at another time on the right. So you will have so try something
18 MR. NEUNER:
19 Q. What colour was the clothes Mr. Boskoski was wearing?
20 A. A black jacket.
21 Q. Thank you very much.
22 MR. NEUNER: Prosecution has no further questions.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Are you tendering the video?
24 MR. NEUNER: It's already admitted as Exhibit P21, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE PARKER: When you're ready, Ms. Residovic, yes.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Ramadani.
6 My name is Edina Residovic, and together with my colleague,
7 Guenael Mettraux, I'm defending Mr. Ljube Boskoski.
8 You have given certain information earlier about which my learned
9 colleague has asked you, and I would only like to confirm that you were
10 born on 8th of February, 1965 in Ljuboten; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. And you have been living in Ljuboten for the entire time?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Your family as well as the -- a number of families in Ljuboten was
15 numerous. You had seven children in the house, and then you had two
16 brothers and four sisters in addition. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes, it is. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. During the event -- events in 2001, you were married and had two
20 A. Yes. At that time I had two children. Now I have three.
21 Q. Thank you. At the question of my colleague you already said that
22 you have given two statements before to the investigators of the
23 Prosecutor. Is it correct, Mr. Ramadani, that you gave a statement to the
24 representatives of the OSCE before that?
25 A. Yes. About the two statements, that is true. Correct.
1 Q. You also gave a statement to the International Red Cross
2 Committee; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All the statements that you talked about with my learned
5 colleagues and that were given to the investigator of the Prosecutor were
6 given with the assistance of the Albanian interpreter; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. And each time you have been signing the statements, confirming
9 that everything that you have said is the truth and to the best of your
10 recollection to the events; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. The president of your village or of the Crisis Staff, Kenan
13 Salievski, was the link between you and the other villagers with the
14 representatives of the Prosecutor of the ICTY; is that correct?
15 A. Salievski, yes. Yes. He informed us at times.
16 Q. Tell me, please, when you were giving the statements to the
17 investigator of the ICTY, where were you usually giving those statements?
18 A. I gave the statements in my village, in our village, Ljuboten, I
19 think at the school.
20 Q. Tell me if it is correct that there are -- there were several
21 persons giving statements on the same day.
22 A. Yes, it's true.
23 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours. Can we please clarify on which day or
24 which year we are talking about, because there were several statements the
25 witness gave.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the two previous
2 statements that he recognised and that were later put in the -- into the
3 consolidated list. The statements that he had given in 2003.
4 Thank you, I apologise. Let me just have some water.
5 Q. Mr. Ramadani, you can surely confirm that your village of Ljuboten
6 is on the slopes of Skopska Crna Gora and that you can see Skopje very
7 well in the valley below from that position.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That position of the village is of an exceptional strategic
10 importance for the city of Skopje; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Above the village, so above the Ljubotenski Bacila and Basinec,
13 there is an old road that is called Muralovo Dzade or Sultanovo Dzade, by
14 the people; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. That is the road that could connect Kumanovo area with the Tetovo
17 area and with the Kosovo border; is that correct?
18 A. I think this road is a connection road that links or connects the
19 Kumanovo area with Kosovo. There is no connection with Tetovo.
20 Q. Directly below Muralovo Dzade, there is the location called Crn
21 Kamen, from which you could completely see the area of Kumanovo, but also
22 the border towards Kosovo and the area of Tetovo. Is that correct?
23 A. From as I see it, you cannot see them. Because Tetovo is far, you
24 cannot see Tetovo from there. Kumanovo, too, is several kilometres far
25 from Crna Kamen.
1 Q. Thank you. You probably have a better overview of the situation
2 than I do.
3 Is it correct that directly behind the mountain there is the
4 village of Matejce where in 2001, during the events in Ljuboten, the
5 headquarters of the NLA brigade thought that area was located?
6 A. It is true that it is behind the mountain of Matejce.
7 Q. The fact that Ljuboten is located not far from the borders and
8 that it has strategic importance during the crisis in Macedonia, is it
9 correct that the army of the Republic of Macedonia deployed at positions
10 around the village, and, in that way, secured the space of around 20
11 kilometres from the Kosovo and Serbia borders?
12 A. Yes. I think this is correct. It was there before the event
13 happened. The village was surrounded.
14 Q. Before the events in Ljuboten, through the media and possibly in
15 some other ways, you learned that the groups of Albanian terrorists have
16 attacked police stations, police patrols, and the positions of the army of
17 the Republic of Macedonia in several locations. Did you have any such
19 A. No. This is not correct. This is misinformation.
20 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Ramadani, that the Albanian population of
21 Ljuboten was approving the actions that the NLA was performing on the
22 territory of the Republic of Macedonia?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You personally were approving of the actions of the NLA.
25 A. I think, to be frank, I liked the NLA, but I did not participate.
1 I was not a member.
2 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Ramadani, that the village, apart from the
3 strategic importance for the city of Skopje, was also quite convenient for
4 the logistic support for the NLA forces that were fighting in the
5 background of the village?
6 A. No. This is not correct. There was no logistics whatsoever.
7 Q. Is it correct that as early as in the spring 2001, armed
8 representatives of NLA arrived to the village and requested that the young
9 people from the village join NLA?
10 A. No. That's not correct. The village was totally unprotected.
11 Q. Is it correct that some of the younger men from the village
12 director joined NLA and participated in the actions of NLA?
13 A. That's not correct. I have no knowledge about this.
14 Q. At the time, the president of the Crisis Staff at the village was
15 Kenan Saliu or Kenan Salievski; is that correct?
16 A. That's correct.
17 Q. If, in his statements to the investigators of the OTP, Kenan
18 Salievski would say that, from the village of Ljuboten, member so NLA were
19 Suat Saliu, Riza Junuzi, Besim Muretazani, Rafiz Bajrami, Shefajet
20 Bajrami, Fikret Aliu, Nimet Aliu, Ruhan Jashari, Ramadan Alimi who was
21 killed in the fights around Matejce, Musa Salimi, Refadim Salimi, Faik
22 Murati, Shefqet Murati, Zeqir Murati, Rasim Murati, and others. While in
23 the village inside, there were Commander Musko, Commander Lisi, and
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Commander Miskoja.
1 Q. You would certainly be able to confirm that this information was
3 A. No. There was no Commander Miskoja or Lisi in the village. This
4 is all misinformation.
5 Q. Are you aware -- are you familiar with the name Halimi Baki?
6 A. Yes. I know him as a teacher. Not in any other capacity.
7 Q. But you also know him by the name of the Commander Lisi.
8 A. He was not a commander. This is misinformation that was spread.
9 He is a teacher.
10 Q. You must also know your fellow villager, Fatmir Kamberi.
11 A. I know him as a person, but he was not a commander either.
12 Q. But he was known as Miskoja. Is that correct?
13 A. No, that's not correct. He was not a commander.
14 Q. Mr. Ramadani, as in accordance with the traditional customs of
15 Albanian people, it was normal and usual that every family would have
16 weapons that are otherwise used in celebrations and other events. Is that
18 A. This cannot be said for present times. This may apply to ancient
19 times, because now we use books and we are dedicated to learning, not to
20 using weapons.
21 Q. In 2001, in August, during the events also, you knew that Shefajet
22 Bajrami known also as Shef, belonged to the group of the Commander Teli,
23 who was again a personal friend to the Commander Arusha; do you know that.
24 A. I know him as a person, but it is not correct that he was
25 commander or participant. He worked in Italy.
1 Q. And his brother, Rafiz Bajrami, was in the 114th Brigade of the
2 NLA; is that correct?
3 A. No, that's not correct. I think that he, too, are worked in Italy
4 at that time.
5 Q. You must have heard that at the beginning of August in 2001 in
6 Skopje, that Commander Teli was killed with some of his fellow fighters.
7 Have you heard about that?
8 A. Yes. It is correct that we heard about this. He was killed in
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters report: There is a lot of noise in
11 our earphones.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We also hear the noise, but we
13 don't know where it comes from.
14 Q. Mr. Ramadani, do you know that after the demise of Commander Teli
15 in Skopje, his friend, Commander Arusha, decided to retaliate and place
16 mines; and in the placing of mines, Shefajet Bajrami participated as well?
17 A. No. I have no information about this.
18 Q. Are you aware that on the 10th of August, when in Ljubotenski
19 Bacila, land-mines were placed, Shefajet Bajrami, together with some other
20 people, the Commander Malisheva and other armed members of the NLA,
21 entered the village?
22 A. No. I don't know about this. This is, as I said, misinformation.
23 Q. Because you aware of the information that you had, that it was the
24 NLA that planted the mine, you personally and your fellow villagers as
25 early as Friday -- as on the Friday you felt unsafe enough, there was fear
1 spreading among the people. So there were movements of the villagers of
2 Ljuboten. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that's correct. We heard about this incident, but it
4 happened far from the village, about five [as interpreted] kilometres far
5 from the village. It was high in the mountains where it happened.
6 Q. Despite that, part of the villagers, some 50 families, left the
7 village, together with the children.
8 A. Yes that's correct. They left because of the gunshots that were
9 being heard from all sides of the village, and there was no other way out
10 for them.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Line 19 should read
12 15 kilometres.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Is it correct that you and the other grown-up men, upon being
15 summoned from the Commander Lisi, met and discussed what would be the way
16 to react in the village is searched?
17 A. No. There was no meeting whatsoever. We were civilians,
18 unprotected civilians.
19 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Ramadani, that on the 12th, there was
20 cross-fire between the people who were armed in the village and the forces
21 that were entering the village?
22 A. In my opinion, the people in the village had no weapons
23 whatsoever. All the shots and shelling came from the other side, from the
25 Q. Tell me, is it correct that, actually, throughout the crisis in
1 Macedonia it was only on that date, the 12th, that there would be
2 certain -- that there were certain military or combat activities inside
3 the village. Is that correct?
4 There were -- there were no activities of such sort on any other
5 day, inside the village; is that correct?
6 A. I know that there was no combat activity in the village. Only a
7 massacre committed by the Macedonian police happened in Ljuboten.
8 Q. I would like you to answer my question. Is it only one day when
9 there was something happening related to use of weapons. Was it only on
10 the 12th? Is it only on that date, not before and not afterwards, there
11 were forces entering the village?
12 A. Let me explain. The gunshots were heard not only on one day.
13 They were heard as of that Friday. The shelling and the gunshots
14 continued for three days, and I think it was on the second day that the
15 Macedonian police entered the village, on the 12th of August.
16 Q. You know the name Muzafer Agushi from Aracinovo?
17 A. Yes, I know him, but I'm not related to him in any way.
18 Q. You know that he was killed in Ljuboten, and that it was published
19 in the books about NLA?
20 A. I think that he was not killed in Ljuboten village. He was killed
21 in the mountains. And as I explained, the mountain is about 15 kilometres
22 far from Ljuboten.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask that the
24 witness is now shown 65 ter number 1D74. Your Honours, we are not sure if
25 the e-court is in operation, so we are prepared a hard copy. So I would
1 like to ask the usher to help us show this document to the witness.
2 JUDGE PARKER: We'll very grateful that have you the hard copies.
3 We have only three minutes remaining of this session. Do you want to move
4 on to this now or have the break first?
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Maybe this would be the right time
6 to take a break. Thank you.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.
8 We'll resume then at 11.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
13 Mr. President, I have been informed that e-court is now
14 operational, so since we have in addition to the fact that we have shown
15 the hard copy. Can we show this document 65 ter number 1D74, page 1D1041,
16 and the English translation 1047.
17 Your Honours, just to clarify, I would like to say that we
18 received the documents under Rule 68; and since it is in Albanian, we have
19 asked the CLSS to only translate the relevant parts. The first page is
20 the page saying that this is the book speaking about the NLA Kosovo, the
21 Kosovo liberation army.
22 I would like to ask that the second page is also shown, 1D1042,
23 that is English 1D1048. That is a monography of the type members of the
24 Kosovo Liberation Army. Please show page 1D1043, the English 1D1049;
25 whereby, it could be seen who is the publisher and who are the persons
1 that were writing this publication.
2 Please show 1D1044, and English 1D1050. This is only the title of
3 the book, "The Kosovo Liberation Army Martyrs," published in Pristina in
4 2001. And I would like 1D1046, at the same time showing, 1D1052.
5 Your Honours, behind the monography, from page 17 to page 104,
6 there's a list of all the deceased members of the NLA; and in the first
7 line that you see here, we have translated the words found at the top of
8 each page above the columns, and they represent the full name of the
9 deceased person, the year of birth, place of birth, year of death, and the
10 place of death.
11 This is only about persons died, as it is mentioned in the book
12 for persons that there are data, precise data about.
13 Q. Mr. Ramadani, the image that you have in front of you now, in the
14 list of names at the fourth -- position four, do you see the name of
15 Muzafer Agushi, about whom I have asked you a little bit before the break?
16 Can you see that name written there?
17 A. No. I can't see it.
18 Q. In the Albanian, the fourth name written in this name list, do you
19 see it now?
20 A. No. It's not there. Yes.
21 Q. This person is born in 1981 in Aracinovo; and in the next column,
22 which speaks about the year of death, it says 2001, and the place of death
23 is Ljuboten. Do you see that?
24 A. Not correct. He was not killed in Ljuboten. He was killed
25 somewhere up in the mountains about 15, 1-5, kilometres away from the
2 Q. Thank you. But you also see that the year and place are written
3 as an information of the death of Muzafer Agushi; is that correct?
4 A. Yes. The year is there, 2001.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we would now ask
7 that document is tendered as an exhibit of the Defence.
8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D7, Your Honours.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Ramadani, you know also (redacted); is that correct?
12 A. I know him. He is a co-villager of mine.
13 Q. Is a (redacted)?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. On the 12th of August, 2001, he also had possessed weapons?
16 A. No. He did not have any weapons.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.
18 MR. NEUNER: I don't wish to interrupt but the person who was just
19 mentioned is a protected witness, if this please could be redacted.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Redaction. Thank you very much.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
22 Q. On that day, he escaped towards the woods and was wounded; is that
24 A. Yes. He was wounded by the Macedonian police.
25 Q. And he is a NLA member; is that correct?
1 A. No. He was not a member of the NLA. He was an ordinary civilian.
2 Q. Mr. Ramadani, I will ask you a few things about which you spoke
3 briefly with my learned colleague the Prosecutor, and you have been
4 mentioning that in your previous statements, especially in the corrections
5 you've provided in April when -- when it was the last time you spoke to
6 the colleagues from the Prosecution.
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask knew we show document
9 1D --
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't get the number.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] -- 1D48, page 1D00595, and the
12 Macedonian version 1D0607.
13 Q. Before I ask you about what is written in your changes, is it
14 correct that once you were taken out of the house you were in, that you
15 were immediately ordered to put your T-shirts over your heads and to --
16 and to lay on the floor?
17 A. Yes, it is correct.
18 Q. During the entire time you were lying on the ground, you had to
19 have your T-shirts over your heads?
20 A. Yes, it is true.
21 Q. Also, while moving from the Ljuboten towards the Brace's House,
22 you were not allowed to take the -- your shirts off your heads; is that
24 A. No, we were not allowed.
25 Q. Therefore, you could better hear some words than to personally
1 see; is that correct?
2 A. Yes. Yes. We could hear, but we couldn't see anything.
3 Q. In the documents, the last changes that made by the end of April
4 in Ljuboten, in point 5, you have said that you had your T-shirt over your
5 head and, therefore, was not able to see anything. But what you have
6 seen, as it is mentioned there, and I would like to ask you whether that
7 is true, you have seen only the colours of some of the insignia of the
8 uniforms and that was that have you seen black and blue. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes. I think when they got us out of the basement, we could see
10 it then, but then they ordered us to put our T-shirts over our heads.
11 Q. And, practically, when our learned colleagues showed you some
12 uniforms, you were only able to say that what you have seen resembles what
13 you were shown; is that correct?
14 I apologise. I read line 3 in this paragraph 9, which says that
15 you were shown a photograph of the uniforms, and then you say: "Some of
16 them look like in the picture ERN number N004-5059."
17 Is it correct that you were not completely certain to tell whether
18 they are-- whether they are identical or not, but that it looked like to
19 what you have seen at that time. Is that correct?
20 A. I think that these uniforms were there, and both the special
21 police forces and the reservist -- reserve forces were present on Sunday
22 in the village.
23 Q. Okay. Thank you.
24 Mr. Ramadani, regardless of the fact that you have served army in
25 the past, because of the things you were doing in your life, you did not
1 know the precise structure of the army and of the police of the Republic
2 of Macedonia; is that correct?
3 A. I couldn't know that of the Macedonian army because I -- I did my
4 military service in the Yugoslav police, so earlier.
5 Q. So not only that you were not in the Macedonian army, you never
6 served any duties in the Macedonian police as well; is that correct?
7 A. No, I was not.
8 Q. Given your position and your expertise that is not connected to
9 the competences of certain body, you did not precisely know the
10 competences that certain Ministries have in the Republic of Macedonia; is
11 that correct?
12 A. I don't know these.
13 Q. But you know that the investigating judge and the investigating
14 judges in Macedonia are those carrying out the investigations for certain
15 crimes; is that correct?
16 A. This I know, that they carry investigations.
17 Q. You also know that the prosecutors and their responsibility to
18 conduct the business of the prosecutors' office are linked to the Ministry
19 of Justice of the Republic of Macedonia; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, I believe so.
21 Q. And in 2001, the Minister of Justice was Mr. --
22 A. I think it was Hixhet Mehmeti.
23 Q. -- Hixhet Mehmeti, an Albanian; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Mr. Ramadani, in your statements, you have been explaining also
1 about your experience in the Sutka prison. Is it correct that you do not
2 know whose members are the guards in that prison, the prisoner guards, nor
3 what are the bodies that are superior to the Sutka prison and the
4 personnel of the prison. Have you no personal knowledge about these
5 things. Is that correct?
6 A. That's correct. I don't have any knowledge.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would now ask to move into
8 private session, since I will be mentioning probably names of some
10 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 1021-1025 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Ramadani, that while you were inside the police
7 station Mirkovci, the police called police [as interpreted] twice to check
8 the health status of the detainees?
9 A. No, that's not correct. We didn't undergo any medical treatment
11 Q. Together with several other persons you were transferred to the
12 hospital to be given medical care; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, but on the second night, not on the first night, which means
14 13th of August. They came at around 6.00 p.m., and they took several
15 persons and took them to the hospital.
16 Q. Before, according doctor's instruction, you were transferred to
17 the hospital, Atulla Qaili was transferred before you; is that correct?
18 A. Atulla Qaili was transferred there the night before.
19 Q. Thank you. In the hospital, you were rendered adequate medical
20 care; is that correct?
21 A. First of all, the Macedonian reserve forces ill-treated us, even
22 at the hospital. They made us take off our civilian clothes, and they put
23 pyjamas on us. They ill-treated us, and then after that they sent us to
24 the rooms.
25 Q. The doctors in the hospital offered you appropriate medical care;
1 is that correct?
2 A. The doctors at the hospital gave us only IV treatment; then they
3 tied our wounds, the wounds that we had on our heads and faces. Only
4 that, nothing else.
5 Q. So if the medical records, that my learned colleague has shown
6 you, it is stated that you were administered all necessary medications,
7 then this would not be correct -- correctly written. Is that correct?
8 A. This is not correct. I told here a little bit before, they only
9 gave us IV treatment, two bottles of IV medication; and then the following
10 day, on the 13th of August, a bottle of IV medication. And as I said here
11 before, they gave us a treatment -- applied a cream on our wounds, and one
12 of the doctors said that, "You can't heal immediately, so you need several
13 applications of this cream." But then somebody from the court came to ask
14 questions to us, and then they tied our hands and sent us to the Sutka
16 Q. When you left detention, Mr. Ramadani, you never filed criminal
17 charges against any person who ill-treated you in Ljuboten, inside the
18 police station or in the hospital; is that correct?
19 A. No. We didn't press any charges.
20 Q. You never asked your attorney to file such charges, criminal
21 charges on your behalf. Is that correct as well?
22 A. I think that we didn't have a lawyer. The lawyers that you were
23 assigned to us were assigned by the other party. So they were state
24 attorney, and they didn't have any interest in us.
25 Q. When you say "the other side," would it be correct if I said that
1 you were assigned an ex officio attorney, the one retained for you by the
2 court? Is that what you're trying to say?
3 A. Yes. I was assigned an ex officio attorney by the court, but I
4 only see him once in the four months that I was in prison.
5 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Ramadani, that when you left detention, you
6 were mistrustful of the police and the Macedonian authorities, and that
7 was the reason why you refused to give any statements or to file any
8 charges to those bodies? Was that the reason why you never gave a
9 statement or filed charges?
10 A. Yes, it is true. I didn't trust in them. That's the reason.
11 Q. You trusted only the international organisations. So your
12 statements about the actual events in Ljuboten and what happened to you
13 personally were given only to the OSCE and the International Committee of
14 the Red Cross and the investigators of this Tribunal. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes. I gave a statement only to them, to no one else.
16 Q. You believed that that was enough, and that they had the duty, if
17 that was necessary, to inform the Macedonian authorities about your
18 statements; is that correct?
19 I didn't hear the answer.
20 A. Can you please repeat your question.
21 Q. You trusted that it was enough to give statements to the
22 international organisations, and you believed that it is their duty to
23 inform the Macedonian authorities about your statements, if that was
24 necessary. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Ramadani.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have concluded the
3 cross-examination of this witness.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Residovic.
5 Mr. Apostolski.
6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours.
7 Your Honours, today I will ask questions of the witness, Ismail
8 Ramadani, and I will comprise the issues that my learned colleague, Edina
9 Residovic, did not comprise in her cross-examination.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski:
11 Q. [Interpretation], Mr. Ramadani, my name is Antonio Apostolski and
12 together with my distinguished colleague, Jasmina Zivkovic, are Defence
13 counsels for Mr. Johan Tarculovski.
14 I will ask you to today about the events in Ljuboten in 2001, the
15 10th, 11th and 12th of August. Can we start asking questions?
16 A. Yes, you can.
17 Q. You have completed primary education in your mother tongue, the
18 Albanian; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, it's correct.
20 Q. Is it correct that you speak the Macedonian language?
21 A. Yes, it's correct.
22 Q. You live with your family, your wife and children; is that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In your consolidated 92 ter statement of 25th of April, 2007,
1 2D2388, page 2, paragraph 4, line 3, you state that: "I have been a
2 supporter of the NLA in 2001, but I never participated actively in the war
3 as a fighter, as a combatant."
4 Is that correct?
5 A. Yes. I was not member. Now when you say "supporter," anybody
6 would support his own side. That's why I was such a supporter.
7 Q. Could you tell us in which way you supported the NLA?
8 A. I have no comment to this effect. I did complete my education,
9 but I was not employed. I worked as a farmer.
10 Q. I apologise, but you failed to answer my question. Can you tell
11 us in what way have you supported the NLA?
12 A. In no way.
13 Q. In your consolidated 92 ter statement of the 25th of April, 2007,
14 2D2388, page 2, paragraph 4, line 4, you say: "I think that in the
15 village there were around 40 Albanian houses that were supporters, as I
17 Is that correct?
18 A. I may well have said this, but I don't know concretely who was
19 among these 40 households that you mentioned, who supported and who
21 Q. How many houses of Albanians are there in the village of Ljuboten?
22 A. I think 300, around 300 houses.
23 Q. Can you agree with me that Ljuboten is a small village where
24 people know one another?
25 A. Well, in my opinion, it's not that small, where everyone can know
1 everyone else.
2 Q. Thank you. In your consolidated 92 ter statement of 25th April,
3 2007, 2D2388, page 3, paragraph 6, you say that you remember that on the
4 morning of Friday, the 10th of August, shelling of the village started; is
5 that correct?
6 A. Yes, that's correct. I was harvesting tobacco in the field at
7 6.00 in the morning.
8 Q. Further, in paragraph 7 of the same statement, you continue by
9 saying that: "The shelling was coming from the direction where the APCs
10 and the cannons were located."
11 Is that correct?
12 A. Yes, that's correct, 100 per cent.
13 Q. And that they - you referred to APCs [as interpreted] and cannons
14 - were not further than 100 metres away from the village, and that you
15 were able to see them clearly. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes. They were above the village. They were positioned above the
18 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in the transcript
19 line 17 in the translation, I see that it is translated as "APC," while I
20 was asking about a "tank."
21 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
22 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
23 Q. You were also able to see that the Macedonian army was present on
24 those locations because you recognised them by their uniforms; is that
1 A. Yes, that's correct.
2 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I ask that the witness is shown
3 the photograph 65 ter ERN N005-7605.
4 I think we could zoom out a bit so that we see a larger panorama,
5 so that we could see a broader panorama.
6 Q. So can you show on the photograph where were the tanks located,
7 and could you mark that with number 1; and then mark with the number 2
8 where the cannons were located?
9 A. Yes. Here. They were positioned here.
10 Q. If you need, then the photograph could be zoomed back in.
11 A. [No interpretation]
12 Q. Mark with the number 1 the positions of the cannons.
13 A. To be clear, I was not there nearby, but I know that here, there
14 were tanks and cannons and mortars of the army positioned there, and they
15 were firing uninterruptedly in the direction of the village with all these
16 military equipment.
17 Q. So could you mark that point with the number 1.
18 A. Yes. Here is number 1, and here number 2.
19 Q. So number 1 marks the location of the tanks, and the number 2 is
20 the location of the cannons; is that correct?
21 A. Mortars.
22 Q. So the number 2 marks now the location of the mortars.
23 A. Yes. Number 1 is the position of the tanks, and 2 the position of
24 the mortars.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this photograph
2 as evidence.
3 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D14, Your Honours.
5 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] In the addendum or correction to
6 the 92 ter statement of Ismail Ramadani of 25th of April, 2007, 2D2422,
7 page 2, paragraph 4, line 3, you state that the shelling lasted from the
8 Friday until the Sunday; is that correct.
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Do you know maybe on the Friday, the 10th of August, 2001, in the
11 morning, where was it that the shells fell?
12 A. To what I know, the first shell fell near my neighbourhood, when
13 the little Erxhan Aliu was killed, at Zija Ahmeti's house.
14 Q. Do you want to say that this happened on the Friday, early in the
16 A. Yes, that's what I think, Friday morning. I don't know the exact
17 hour, but it was around 8.00 or 9.00 in the morning.
18 Q. Can you tell us the names of the persons, owners of the houses
19 where the shells fell on the Friday morning.
20 A. Well, I think, I know that several people know where the shells
21 fell and I can show --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: I know the houses of
23 several people.
24 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Do you know where they fell?
1 A. Yes, I know. I can be correct about three shells, where they
3 Q. Can you tell me those?
4 A. Yes, I can. But I can't --
5 Q. Just the names of the people, could you tell us?
6 A. Yes, if it is zoomed in, I can show.
7 The first shell fell on -- at the wall of Zija Ahmeti's house.
8 The second shell fell at the house of Ismail Mahmuti's. The third shell
9 fell at Nuredin Elezovski house. So I'm sure about these three shells.
10 Q. Were there any other shells that fell in the village on the Friday
11 morning but you don't recall where they fell?
12 A. There are other shells. Some other shells fell in the fields and
13 in gardens, but there were no damages to other houses.
14 Q. So there was damages to those houses that you have mentioned,
15 damage caused by the shelling.
16 A. There is more damage; but for what I was sure, I showed here.
17 Q. Your consolidated statement 92 ter of 25th April 2007, 2D2388,
18 page 4, paragraph 9, you state that you and your family stayed home,
19 meaning until 18, 1900 hours on the Saturday evening; is that correct?
20 A. On Saturday, yes, we were at our home. That's correct. The
21 second night we went to (redacted).
22 Q. Okay. Can you explain why did you move to (redacted)?
23 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.
24 MR. NEUNER: Just have the name of the person redacted from the
25 transcript, please.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And this exhibit is an exhibit under
2 seal as well, if I'm correct.
3 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Could you explain why you moved to that house?
5 A. Yes, I can. We moved to that house because we were not safe in
6 our basement, so we went to (redacted) to be safe from the
7 shelling from the Macedonian police --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Macedonian army.
9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.
10 MR. NEUNER: Sorry to interrupt my learned colleague again, but
11 the name of the person has just been mentioned again.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Mr. Apostolski, if you would be careful not
13 to be mentioning the name of the person; and if you, Mr. Ramadani, would
14 try and avoid mentioning the name of the people in the house where you
15 were in the basement or the names of the people who were with you in the
16 basement. Thank you.
17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Q. Wasn't your house safe although the village has been shelled for
19 two days, on the Friday and the Saturday, by the Macedonian security
20 forces, and you stayed those two days in your basement?
21 A. Yes. We stayed in our house only on the first day; then when the
22 shelling started, we tried to go to a safer place because a shell fell in
23 the yard of my house.
24 Q. In your consolidated 92 ter statement of 25th of April, 2007,
25 2D2388, page 5, paragraph 13, line 2, you say that: "I saw through a
1 small window of my shelter, I saw the soldiers coming into the village and
2 there were at least 300 soldiers and police officers."
3 Is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that's correct, 100 per cent correct.
5 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we move into
6 a private session for a while.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
8 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
23 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] -- to mark the window with the
24 number 1.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have already marked it.
1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Could the witness mark with the number 2 the fence around the
4 A. You mean the yard where they took us out from the basement? This
5 is the line we followed, and then they made us lie down. This is number
7 Q. Could you put an arrow towards the direction of the gate to the
8 yard of the house?
9 A. The gate is not shown here. It's a bit further. It's not here,
10 but it's towards this side.
11 Q. Could you put an arrow when you would get out of the window to
12 which direction the gate is? Which direction would you move?
13 A. It's the direction of the door, after this, or behind this.
14 Q. Once you left the basement, did you go to the direction that you
15 have just shown towards the gate?
16 A. No. When they took us out of the basement, they made us lie down
17 on the ground, here, for five or ten minutes, first of all. They took our
18 papers, our identification papers, they made us lie down, and they
19 tortured us. They hit us on our heads and they kicked us, so they
20 tortured us. That's the first thing that they did to us.
21 Q. Does it mean that with number 2 you have marked the place you were
22 at once you left the basement?
23 A. That is correct, here. Number 2 is here. That's correct.
24 Q. Could you mark with the number 3 the place where the gate to the
25 door is, or the direction in which the gate to the door is, to be more
2 A. Yes. This is the arrow towards the door. It's number 3 --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It should be the gate
4 to the yard.
5 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this photograph
6 into evidence.
7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D16, Your Honours.
9 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
10 Q. You said that for your own safety from the shelling, you put boxes
11 at the door of the basement.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did in any way you protected yourself, so you're not hurt by the
14 shells through the window?
15 A. We didn't put anything against the window because the shelling was
16 coming behind the house and the window was on the other side of the house.
17 Q. In your 92 ter consolidated statement of 25th of April, 2007,
18 2D2388, page 5, paragraph 14, line 1, you say that on the 12th of August,
19 2001, at 10.00 in the morning, "I noticed around 50 police officers in the
20 yard of the house." I'll avoid mentioning the name. It is the
21 aforementioned house that we spoke about. "There was a clock in the
22 basement, so therefore I know that -- that was exactly 10.00."
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So you insist that you have seen the clock?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. And that is the exact time when the police entered the door [as
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Please, could we move into
5 private session now.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 1041-1042 redacted. Private session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski, we must now have the second break
16 and we will resume at 1.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 1.08 p.m.
19 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry that the break had to be longer than
20 planned because of the need to complete the tape editing, which took
22 Could the Chamber mention, and ask that from tomorrow the matter
23 be observed by all counsel, from now on it will be important where a
24 document being referred to has become an exhibit to refer to the document
25 by the exhibit number rather than earlier numbers, because we need to know
1 whether we're dealing with an exhibit that is under seal or an exhibit
2 that is not under seal; and if references are made bake to earlier numbers
3 there can be a mistake and that can lead to information becoming public
4 that should not.
5 So if we could ask counsel from now on to be very careful, that
6 they look at and refer to exhibit numbers rather than other numbers, where
7 a document is already an exhibit.
8 Thank you for that.
9 Now, Mr. Apostolski.
10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I have
11 just few more questions to ask of this witness.
12 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Ramadani, that the public prosecutor's office
13 of Skopje filed an indictment against you with regards to the events in
14 Ljuboten on the 10th, 11th, and 12th of August?
15 A. Yes, that's correct. They pressed charges.
16 Q. Is it correct that the Court did not acquit you?
17 A. That's not true. I was acquitted after four months.
18 Q. Were you acquitted by the Court?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is it correct that the president, Boris Trajkovski, made a
21 decision to pardon the individuals, members of NLA deprived of liberty,
22 pardoned you?
23 A. Yes, that's correct. We received the pardon via a document, and
24 his signature is on the document.
25 Q. This means that the Court acquitted you on the basis of the
1 decision on pardoning by -- by Boris Trajkovski?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] If the witness can be shown 65
4 ter number 12, ERN N000-4409.
5 Q. Can you confirm that this is the decision by which the president,
6 Boris Trajkovski, pardoned you as a member of the so-called NLA?
7 A. This is the document.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document as
11 JUDGE PARKER: It's Exhibit P48.
12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have
13 no further questions.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
15 Yes, Mr. Neuner.
16 MR. NEUNER: I would have an if you question, Your Honour.
17 Re-examination by Mr. Neuner:
18 MR. NEUNER: First of all, I wish to clarify the transcript on
19 page 43, lines 11 and 12, it says, referring to the answer of a witness,
20 "I could see a limited," and this should read, as far as I have
21 understood the translation, "I could see a little bit."
22 Q. Witness, I want to ask you briefly about the state hospital or the
23 hospital in Skopje. You mentioned - and this is on page 42, line 22 -
24 "The Macedonian reserve forces ill-treated us even at the hospital."
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. What forces are you referring to?
2 A. Police forces.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 A. You're welcome.
5 Q. I want to take you to questions from my learned colleagues - and
6 this is page 54 to 57 of the transcript - referring to the view from the
7 cellar, meaning the window and so on?
8 MR. NEUNER: If please Exhibit 2D16 could be shown again.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 MR. NEUNER: Thank you.
11 Q. You told us earlier today that from time to time you left the
12 cellar --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- on that Sunday, the 12th of August. Can you tell me where did
15 you go when you left the cellar?
16 A. When I left the basement, I just went outside in the yard in front
17 of the house to see them from the other side, here. I was not able to
18 stay there longer because of the bullets.
19 MR. NEUNER: Can I ask the usher to assist this witness, please.
20 Q. Can you point or mark with the marker where you went when you were
21 leaving the cellar?
22 A. This direction here, in front of the house.
23 Q. And what could you see from that direction or when you went to
24 that spot?
25 A. I could hear the gunshots. The houses that were torched in the
1 morning at 8.00 on the other side of the village, where the bus-stop is.
2 Q. And just for clarification, how far from the line or from the --
3 it looks like a terrace, how far did you go to the spot where you had that
4 view, if you could just tell?
5 A. Not very far. Up to here, maybe two or three metres further from
6 the basement; not more than that.
7 Q. Can you draw an arrow to the direction where you went, because I
8 understand it might not be depicted on this picture?
9 A. Here.
10 Q. I cannot see the arrow here. Can you maybe try it again.
11 MR. NEUNER: Mr. Usher, if this latest drawing could be erased a
12 little bit, so we can see clearly an arrow.
13 A. I think you can see it now, from here to here.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Can I suggest that be marked with the number 4.
16 MR. NEUNER:
17 Q. Could you say again the view you had from that spot? What could
18 you see from there?
19 A. On that Sunday, I could see the fire coming from the torched
20 houses. I could hear the gunshots.
21 Q. And where are the torched houses?
22 A. On the right side of the village.
23 Q. And by "village," you refer to Ljuboten?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 A. You're welcome.
2 Q. My colleague has asked you about vehicles. Did you see any
3 vehicles on that Sunday, the 12th of August in Ljuboten?
4 A. Yes, two armoured vehicles.
5 Q. And where did you see them?
6 A. One, when they came to the main street of where we were, and they
7 know it very well, how many were there; but I saw two, two Hermelin cars.
8 Q. Can I just clarify "the main street of where we were," what street
9 are you referring to?
10 A. The main street here. They came from this side, the road above
12 Q. Does that street have a particular name?
13 A. I think that this road takes you to the Macedonian village called
15 Q. So you saw them on the street outside the yard, which is depicted
16 on this picture, yes?
17 A. Yes. And we could hear the noise.
18 Q. You stated - and this is page 67, line 4 - "When they came to the
19 main street." Whom are you referring to by "they"?
20 A. The Macedonian police.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. You're welcome.
23 Q. You were asked about the village leader, Kenan Saliu, and the
24 village leader, Mr. Saliu, had helped arrange an interview by the ICTY.
25 My question to you is: To your knowledge, did at any point in time the
1 Macedonian police approach Mr. Kenan Saliu in order to arrange an
2 interview with you?
3 A. No comment.
4 Q. Have you been approached or not?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Can I just clarify this one point. Do you know whether the police
7 ever approached Mr. Kenan Saliu in order to arrange an interview with you?
8 A. This I don't know.
9 Q. Thank you. You were also asked whether you supported the NLA in
10 2001. Is it fair to say that in your heart you did support the NLA in
12 A. Yes, from my heart, but I did not participate in any way.
13 Q. Thank you very much.
14 A. You're welcome.
15 Questioned by the Court:
16 JUDGE PARKER: Before we finish with the witness, the photograph
17 on the screen in front of you, does the position that you went to from
18 where you could see the fire of the houses and other things, is that
19 position shown on this photograph?
20 A. Yes. It's in front of the house, here.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Is that where you have marked the head of the arrow
22 or is it some other position?
23 A. Here.
24 JUDGE PARKER: I can't see what you're pointing to, unfortunately.
25 Can you see the arrow-head that you've drawn, the red one?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Is that the position you're pointing to or are you
3 pointing to some other position?
4 A. Yes, this is the location.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Would you mark that with a number 4, please.
6 A. [Marks]
7 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
8 A. You're welcome.
9 JUDGE PARKER: You did mention the main street, the street you
10 thought that led to Rastak. Is that a street that goes by the front of
11 this house?
12 A. Not in front, but behind the house. If you can see this wall
13 here, it's above that wall.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Can you mark the wall with a cross, please.
15 A. Here is the wall, and behind this wall is the road that I
16 mentioned, behind the wall.
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Now, you referred to Hermelin vehicles.
18 Did you see a Hermelin vehicle on that road at any time, or on that
20 A. No, not earlier than Sunday, when the police forces came.
21 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. And on the Sunday, you did see a Hermelin on
22 that street?
23 A. I heard from others as well that there were two Hermelins present
25 JUDGE PARKER: I'm wanting to learn, first of all, whether you saw
1 any Hermelin vehicles that Sunday. Can you remember that?
2 A. I saw only one. When it passed by along this many road, I heard
3 the roar, and it proceeded in the direction of Rastak village, and then
4 came back, again, along the same road.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. And you heard it. Did you see it
7 A. I both saw it and heard the noise.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. You mentioned in your evidence two
9 Hermelins. Did you, on that Sunday, see a second Hermelin anywhere?
10 A. No, I didn't see the second; but, as I said, I heard that there
11 were two Hermelins there.
12 JUDGE PARKER: And did you hear the sound with your ears, or did
13 somebody else tell you there were two Hermelins?
14 A. I did hear the sound of the first Hermelin vehicle, but not of the
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
18 Now, I take it, Mr. Neuner, you want to tender this photograph?
19 MR. NEUNER: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P196, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE PARKER: You will be pleased to know that that concludes
23 your evidence and the questions that are asked of you. The Chamber would
24 thank you for coming to The Hague and for the assistance that you have
25 been able to give us.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE PARKER: You're now free to leave and the court officer will
3 show you out. Thank you indeed.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE PARKER: Twelve or 13 minutes remain, Mr. Saxon or
7 Mr. Neuner, whoever is dealing with the next witness. Is that useful time
8 or not.
9 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, the Prosecution believes that all time is
10 useful, and Ms. Motoike will lead the next witness and we would like to
11 begin, with the Court's permission.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Splendid. Then we will get the next witness.
13 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honour. Good afternoon. The
14 Prosecution at this time will call Osman Ramadani.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the
19 card that is now given to you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 WITNESS: OSMAN RAMADANI
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Please sit down.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE PARKER: We're glad to hear you have a good clear voice,
2 Mr. Ramadani, and Ms. Motoike has some questions for you.
3 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Examination by Ms. Motoike:
5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ramadani.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 Q. Is your name Osman Ramadani?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. And is your ethnicity Albanian?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And do you live in the village of Ljuboten in Macedonia?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And were you residing in Ljuboten during 10 and 12 August 2001?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And at some point have you given statements to members of my
16 office, the Office of the Prosecution?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And in April of this year, 2007, you met with myself and a
19 colleague and signed another statement that contained a consolidation of
20 your prior statements; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, with the assistance of the usher, if
23 can he could show Mr. Ramadani the hard copies.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
25 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could show Mr. Ramadani the document, which
1 bears ERN number N006-4092/N006-4112.
2 Q. Mr. Ramadani, do you see that document before you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is your signature there at the bottom of page 1?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And if could you take a look at every single page of that
7 document, did you sign every single page at the bottom?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And if could you look at page 21, there's a paragraph on that
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. On page 21, there is a paragraph that has the title in English,
13 "Witness Acknowledgement." Is that your signature there underneath that,
14 "Witness Acknowledgment"?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And after you signed this statement, did you then make some
17 corrections and/or additions to this statement at that time?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. MOTOIKE: With the assistance of the usher, if can we could
20 show Mr. Ramadani the next document, which bears ERN N006-4078/N006-4090.
21 Q. Mr. Ramadani, do you see your signature at the bottom of page 1 of
22 this document?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And if could you take a look at page 2, at the top, it says,
25 "Additions or Corrections to Rule 92 ter statement," in English. Is your
1 signature at the bottom there on page 2?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And did you sign every page of this document at the bottom?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And were the contents of this document read to you in your native
6 language before you had an opportunity to sign it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And if could you take a look at the page 13 of this particular
9 document, where it says, "Witness Acknowledgment," is that your signature?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And on the -- on 8 May, 2007, did you and I and another colleague
12 from my office also have an opportunity to speak about these particular
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. At that time, did you make a correction to the name of a
16 particular body-guard who had you mentioned in paragraph 26 of that
17 addenda correction statement?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And what was this correction that you provided to me at that time?
20 A. The correction was related to the body-guard.
21 Q. And at that time, did you indicate that the body-guard's name was
22 written wrong in your prior addenda correction statement?
23 A. Yes. It was a translation mistake.
24 Q. And the name as it appears in paragraph 26 is Goran. Is it
25 supposed to be Blagoje?
1 A. Blagoje, yes.
2 Q. And with that correction in mind and these two particular
3 statements, are you satisfied that these statements are correct and
5 A. Yes, 100 per cent correct.
6 Q. And would these statements represent what you would say if you
7 were asked the same questions in court today?
8 A. Yes, the same, no changes.
9 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour, I would ask at this time to tender the
10 consolidated 92 ter statement for Mr. Ramadani, as well as the addenda
11 corrigenda to the 92 ter statement pursuant to Rule 92 ter; and because of
12 some of the contents of the documents, I would ask that they be tendered
13 under seal.
14 JUDGE PARKER: Both will be received under seal.
15 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.
16 THE REGISTRAR: The first statement with ERN N006-4092 will become
17 exhibit P197. The second statement with ERN N006-4078 will become Exhibit
18 P198, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Before we pass on, can I just ask you,
20 Mr. Ramadani, how many brothers do you have?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have two brothers.
22 JUDGE PARKER: They are Beqir and Ismail? Thank you.
23 A. That's right.
24 JUDGE PARKER: That is a reference to paragraph 2 of Exhibit 197,
25 which is confusing.
1 Yes, Ms. Motoike.
2 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honour. With the Chamber's
3 permission, I will read a brief summary of this particular witness's
5 The witness, Mr. Ramadani, is a Macedonian of Albanian ethnicity
6 who was born there Ljuboten where he has resided all his life. On 12
7 August 2001, military forces and police, including the Lions, detained the
8 witness and other Ljuboten villagers outside of a house, where they had
9 sought refuge in the basement, and this basement is the same basement that
10 other witnesses have testified to.
11 The witness was severely beaten and mistreated by the police, and
12 Sulejman Bajrami was shot and killed at that location. The witness and
13 other detainees were then forcefully marched to Brace's House, where the
14 witness saw Mr. Ljube Boskoski. The witness was beaten and mistreated
15 whilst walking to Brace's House and also upon his arrival there.
16 He was subsequently detained at Mirkovci police station for two to
17 three days, where the witness and other detainees were beaten by police
18 officers. The witness was also taken to Skopje Court II, where he was
19 forced to sign a document, and then he was transferred to Sutka prison.
20 At the prison, he received more beatings by the guards, resulting in his
21 hospitalisation at Skopje city hospital.
22 The witness was then returned to prison where he remained for four
23 months. The witness saw no NLA presentation in Ljuboten on 10 to 12
24 August, 2001, and he later learned that his father, Muharem Ramadani, and
25 three cousins were killed during the attack on 12 August 2001.
1 Your Honours, I see the hour at this point. I don't know whether
2 or not the Court would like me to go on.
3 JUDGE PARKER: You're in a position of moving on to some new topic
4 now, are you?
5 MS. MOTOIKE: Yes.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Well, then I think we break now and we resume
7 tomorrow at 9.00 a.m.
8 Sir, I'm sorry that you only just got started, but we have now to
9 finish for the day and your evidence will continue tomorrow morning at
10 9.00 a.m. Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Friday, the 18th day of May,
14 2007, at 9.00 a.m.