Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1059

1 Friday, 18 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon, you've remembered.

7 MR. SAXON: At this time, I have remembered, Your Honour, and I

8 bring the matter of the motion that the Prosecution filed yesterday to

9 your attention at this time because I'm afraid that in a few more minutes

10 I won't remember anymore.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. I think it may be convenient if we deal with

12 the evidence of the witness first and then come to the motion. As I

13 understand, there are one or two other matters as well.

14 So if we can turn our attention to the witness in hand.

15 Now, Ms. Motoike.

16 May I remind you, sir, that the affirmation you made at the

17 beginning of your evidence still applies.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Cross-examination by Ms. Motoike [Continued]:

21 MS. MOTOIKE: Good morning, Your Honours.

22 Q. Good morning, Witness.

23 A. Good morning.

24 Q. Mr. Ramadani, you indicated in pages 12 through 15 of your

25 consolidated statement that you were taken to a location called Brace's

Page 1060

1 house, and while there you saw Ljube Boskoski?

2 A. Yes.

3 MS. MOTOIKE: I'm going to ask that the witness be shown a clip,

4 which is Exhibit P21, please.

5 Q. Mr. Ramadani, do you see the clip before you?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you recognise the persons depicted in this video clip?

8 A. Yes, 100 per cent.

9 Q. And who do you see in this video clip?

10 A. Ljube Boskoski and his body-guard.

11 Q. And could you please identify or describe for us the clothing that

12 you see Mr. Boskoski wearing?

13 A. He is wearing black civilian clothes.

14 Q. And could you describe for us the location of the body-guard that

15 you've identified?

16 A. As I see it on the video clip, he is on the left-hand side, the

17 body-guard; while the other person is on the right.

18 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you. If we could now show, please, Exhibit

19 P46, which I believe has been admitted under seal. It bears ERN 0463-8823

20 in both the English and Macedonian versions. I'm sorry. It bears ERN

21 0463-8823. It was previously 65 ter 10.24. Thank you.

22 Q. Mr. Ramadani, do you see the Macedonian version of this document?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you see, in the upper left corner of this document, it says,

25 "Ministry of Interior, OVR Cair," and it's dated 12 August 2001, Skopje?

Page 1061

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And the title is entitled "Certificate," and in the middle there,

3 in bold, and it says, "On temporary seized possessions." Do you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And right after, "On temporary seized possessions," it says: "On

6 day of 12 August 2001, at the PS Mirkovci from the person," and it

7 mentions Ramadani, Osman. Is that the statement that follows?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And later on in that same sentence, it says: "The authorised

10 person," and there's a blank, "seized the following possessions in

11 temporary custody." And on line number 1, it says: "One frame for AP

12 (automatic rifle) calibre 7.62 with 18 bullets."

13 Do you see that?

14 A. Yes, I do. These are all lies, misinformation. I never spoke

15 about these things. I was a simple civilian. They took me from my own

16 house.

17 Q. Okay. At the bottom left corner of the document, do you see a

18 signature line, and it says: "Possessions were seized of," and there's a

19 name. Do you see that?

20 A. Down there, the signature? Yes, I can see it.

21 Q. In the left corner, there's a signature. Do you see that?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 Q. And is that your signature?

24 A. Yes, it is, but I was forced to sign. They did not allow us to

25 read the document first. We didn't know what we were signing. We were

Page 1062

1 supposed to sign blank papers.

2 Q. And do you recall who forced you to sign?

3 A. I don't, because they were all wearing masks and my head was also

4 covered, and I was not allowed to look up. But the accused must know who

5 did this.

6 Q. Do you recall if these persons were wearing uniforms?

7 A. You know who killed them.

8 Q. Mr. Ramadani, if you could just answer my question. What I'd

9 asked you was if you saw whether or not these persons who forced you to

10 sign this document were wearing any uniforms.

11 A. With uniforms and balaclavas.

12 Q. What kind of uniforms did you see on these people?

13 A. Different police uniforms.

14 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could go on to another document, which is also

15 P46 under seal. It was previously 65 ter 10.36. It bears ERN

16 0463-8843-N0463-8845, and the Macedonian version bears the same number.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please enlarge?

18 MS. MOTOIKE: Mr. Ramadani, give us a second. I think we're still

19 trying to pull the whole document up. Okay.

20 Can we go to page 1 of both documents, please. I have 14 hard

21 copies. If I could assist, I could distribute those. Oh, there we have

22 it. Thank you.

23 Q. Mr. Ramadani, do you see the Macedonian version of this document?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. And I believe I forgot to ask you whether or not you read the

Page 1063

1 Macedonian language.

2 A. Yes, of course.

3 Q. Do you see, on the first page of this document, this is a document

4 where at the top there's a name, "Ramadani, Osman"? Is that your name?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And right above that is a date, "14 August 2001," and there's

7 also, below your name, a few words, "Velce Pancevski, Dobre Efremovski,

8 Rumena Kostadinova." Do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could go to the second page of the document,

11 both versions please.

12 Q. Mr. Ramadani, do you see there -- I have a few questions about the

13 contents of this second page. Do you see where it says "1605 hours" in

14 the top of that page, and it says: "Started at 1605 hours."

15 A. Yes, I do. I can see it.

16 Q. It says: "Started at 1605 hours," and then in that paragraph that

17 follows, the second paragraph, it says: "Advise pursuant to Article 210,

18 paragraph 2, from ZKP, the accused was informed," and then it says: "was

19 informed about a request under XXXIIKO," and there's a number there.

20 There is a date, and it says: "on enforcement of investigation with the

21 proposal to impose detention," and then the sentence follows, it

22 says: "because of the well-based suspicion, he committed a criminal act of

23 terrorism pursuant to Article 313 from ZKP." Do you see that?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Have you everyone committed any acts of terrorism?

Page 1064

1 A. Absolutely not. It was never on my mind to do such things. As I

2 said, I was an ordinary family person.

3 Q. But at this time, according to this document, you were accused of

4 such conduct; is that right?

5 A. Yes, it is right, but I was forced to sign these documents because

6 they put this condition, "You're over if you don't sign."

7 Q. If you could look at paragraph 3 of that same page, the very last

8 sentence, it says: "The accused stated, 'Today, I am brought here before

9 the court, before the investigative judge, and I was beaten up by the

10 police in reasons of the incident that happened on Sunday, 12 August

11 2001.'"

12 Do you see that the last sentence of the third paragraph?

13 A. I can see it.

14 MS. MOTOIKE: If we could go to page 4 of the English and page 3

15 of the Macedonian.

16 Q. In the Macedonian, the second paragraph, last sentence, which is

17 on the English, it's page 4, paragraph 3, it says: "Otherwise, I have

18 wounds on my nose, head, and my forehead, also on my upper lip and all

19 over my body. I need medical help."

20 Do you see that?

21 A. Yes, and that is true.

22 Q. And the other statement I showed you with respect to being beaten

23 up, is that also a true statement?

24 A. Of course, it is. I was brutally beaten up.

25 MS. MOTOIKE: Can we go to the bottom of page 3 in the Macedonian

Page 1065

1 version. I'm sorry. Yes. It is the bottom of page 5 in the English

2 version. I think a different document has popped up on our English

3 screen. Yes. Thank you.

4 Q. Mr. Ramadani, at the bottom of the page there in the Macedonian

5 version, do you see, in the middle, where it says: "Accused"?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is that your signature there underneath the word "accused"?

8 A. It's mine.

9 MS. MOTOIKE: And if we can go to page 2 in the Macedonian version

10 and page -- it only appears on page 2 of the Macedonian version. Could

11 we, please, perhaps scroll over so the left margin of this document is

12 showing, the Macedonian version.

13 Q. Do you see there is a name or signature in the left margin of that

14 document? Do you see that?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. Is that your signature?

17 A. Yes, it's mine.

18 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, I have no further questions. Thank

19 you.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Motoike.

21 Ms. Residovic.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ramadani.

25 A. Good morning.

Page 1066

1 Q. Mr. Ramadani, I am Edina Residovic, and together with my

2 colleague, Guenal Mettraux, I am the counsel for Mr. Ljube Boskoski.

3 Mr. Ramadani, you already gave some data on you, but I would like

4 to ask you a few more questions to verify those.

5 Tell me, is it correct that you were born on the 12th of May,

6 1966, in Ljuboten?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you have spent all your life in Ljuboten; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. There were seven children in the family; two brothers and four

11 sisters?

12 A. Correct, yes.

13 Q. In 2001, your mother was no longer living; is that correct?

14 A. Excuse me. My mother still lives.

15 Q. I apologise, then I was misinformed.

16 A. I apologise to you as well. Just put the questions correctly to

17 me, please.

18 Q. In 2001, you had your own family; your wife and three children. Is

19 that correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. You had by then completed secondary education, but at that time

22 you were out of job. You were involved in farming; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The first statement you made was the statement to the OSCE; is

25 that correct?

Page 1067

1 A. Correct.

2 Q. You also discussed with the representatives of the International

3 Committee of the Red Cross; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. As the distinguished colleague Prosecutor put it to you already,

6 you have had several interviews with the investigators of The Hague

7 Tribunal; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Whenever you would have an interview with the investigators of the

10 Tribunal, you would have an interpreter for the Albanian language; is that

11 correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You would sign, yourself, each and every one of your statements?

14 A. Yes, I would.

15 Q. And whenever you were giving a statement, you stated that you are

16 telling the whole truth to your best -- to the best of your recollection;

17 is that correct?

18 A. I have told the truth, and I was there when whatever happened

19 happened.

20 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, my learned colleague showed to you the

21 consolidated statement and the corrections that you have made to the

22 Prosecutors of this Tribunal, but you were giving your previous statements

23 in your village of Ljuboten. It was always the case, is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it correct that it was customary to have several people

Page 1068

1 interrogated at the same time, at the same time as you?

2 A. Can you repeat the question, please? I'm not clear about it.

3 Q. I'm asking you whether it is correct -- or could you tell us, in

4 your own words, whether on the day when you were interviewed, there were

5 other people from Ljuboten interviewed with you together?

6 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour --

7 A. Yes, those who went through it.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Motoike.

9 MS. MOTOIKE: I'm sorry to interrupt, but the question, I think,

10 at least as far as the interpretation, was a little confusing as to the

11 manner or whether or not they were interviewed together in one place or

12 "together" meaning in --

13 JUDGE PARKER: I thought the question was fairly normally framed

14 and would normally have elicited a sensible answer. Whether that answer

15 might clear the distinction you are putting, I don't know, but the answer

16 at the moment that we have received does not enable us yet to know what's

17 going to happen.

18 So please carry on, Ms. Residovic.

19 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

21 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Ramadani, was your liaison to the

22 investigators of this Tribunal Mr. Kenan Salievski or Kenan Saliu?

23 A. I don't know that. I don't know who did what. I told the truth,

24 and I'm very proud that this day came for me to be able to tell the truth.

25 Q. I believe that you will also answer this as truthfully. Is it

Page 1069

1 correct that you never received personal, at your home address, a summons

2 from the investigators of the ICTY, but you were also informed by

3 Mr. Salievski; is that correct?

4 A. No. No, they contacted me directly.

5 Q. Thank you. In your statements given previously, you were asked

6 about your village and about any presence of the NLA in the village. Do

7 you remember that?

8 A. Yes, I do, of course, but what you are putting to me in your

9 question is not true. They were all unarmed civilians and defenceless

10 civilians.

11 Q. I will ask you, Mr. Ramadani, to listen to my question and to

12 answer my question. I never suggested -- I was never leading you in this

13 respect. I only asked you whether the investigators who had interviews

14 with you earlier also asked about the presence of the NLA in the village.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Ramadani, that you, as well as other citizens

17 of Macedonia, knew through the media that in 2001 there were terrorist

18 attacks against police stations taking place, as well as police patrols,

19 military facilities, et cetera? Did you have such information in your

20 possession?

21 A. I was there, I was living there, and I am a citizen of that state.

22 Q. So if I understand you, you then had those information.

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Ramadani, that some of the Albanian population

25 in Ljuboten had affection or were supporting the actions that the NLA was

Page 1070

1 engaged in?

2 A. As far as I know, Ljuboten had nothing to do with it, and there

3 was no NLA in our village. We didn't have any links with it.

4 Q. If I were to tell you that one part of the younger people from

5 Ljuboten joined NLA directly and participated in their activities, then

6 you could confirm that this is correct? Can you confirm this?

7 A. I don't know anything about what you are putting to me. I am

8 talking only of what happened inside the village. Whether there was or

9 there wasn't what you are telling me, then bring people here to prove

10 that.

11 Q. I'm asking you only about what you know, and I'm asking you to

12 answer truthfully to what you know.

13 A. You can ask me only about what happened in the village, please.

14 Don't ask me anything that has to do with things that happened outside the

15 village.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask, Your Honours,

17 that we move into a private session.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1071











11 Pages 1071-1078 redacted. Private session.















Page 1079

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 [Open session]

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. My learned colleague showed you today the statements that you gave

22 to the investigating judge. Do you remember that?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. Exactly. The judges, like the one that have taken the statement

25 from you, were those in charge of carrying out the investigations in

Page 1080

1 Macedonia. As a citizen, you must be aware of that; is that so?

2 A. I was aware, but they didn't carry out any investigation in our

3 case. Even the police and the judges should be held responsible for the

4 crimes committed against us.

5 Q. In your statements, you also saw that the Prosecutor was always

6 present; is that correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. And as a citizen of the Republic of Macedonia, you are aware that

9 the Prosecutors, when they hear about something happening, they propose

10 the course to initiate an investigation. Are you aware of that?

11 A. Yes, I am.

12 Q. Thank you. You explained, and you've mentioned that in the

13 corrections that I put to you a while ago, that when you were by Brace's

14 house, that then you saw Mr. Boskoski behind the wall that is between the

15 street and the house of Brace; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, correct.

17 Q. As you have said in those corrections, you've only seen the upper

18 part of Mr. Boskoski's body?

19 A. Correct, because you could not look up.

20 Q. Thank you. In your earlier statements, I will mention the one

21 from the 24th of October, 2003, you said that: "I've seen him before that

22 many times on television. I believe it was at least three or four times.

23 I didn't see Boskoski in the newspapers because I very seldomly read the

24 papers. I'm not sure when was that he became a Minister, but I think that

25 he was appointed a Minister when the previous government took power two

Page 1081

1 years before the 2001 events."

2 Do you remember saying this to the ICTY investigators?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. Do you remember that, describing Mr. Boskoski at that time, you

5 have said that he was wearing civilian clothes, and then you have

6 added: "I recall now that he was wearing some kind of a hat or a cap on

7 his head"?

8 A. No. I'm absolutely clear that he was wearing civilian clothes,

9 and this is what I said in my statement. He was not wearing any hat.

10 Maybe it was a mistake by the interpreters, because I didn't see any hat.

11 I only described what I saw him wearing.

12 Q. So if that is written in your statement, which is 65 ter number

13 1D68, page 1D0848, in the middle of the text, then, as you are saying

14 today, that must have been a mistake in the interpretation of what you

15 were saying; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In the corrections given to the Prosecutor in April 2007, you say

18 that you've also seen Mr. Boskoski's body-guard called Goran?

19 A. Yes.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. I think this first

21 page does not match the second page. There must be some mistake in what

22 I've read, because the first page, the English page, is not at all the

23 page I was talking about. But since I've asked the question and the

24 witness responded to those questions, I think there's no use wasting time

25 looking for the page of the transcript that would match this. So these

Page 1082

1 documents could be taken off the e-court.

2 Q. Mr. Ramadani, in the changes and additions that you have given,

3 you have said that you've also seen Mr. Boskoski's body-guard and that you

4 are sure his name is Goran; and then on the 8th of May, you arrived in The

5 Hague.

6 A. No, I was not sure.

7 Q. You've said that you recalled and that his name is Blagoje; is

8 that correct?

9 A. It is not true that I recalled his name later. I worked in bit

10 Bit Pazar. He was there. I would meet him very often, and I can

11 recognise him very clearly, even from 100 kilometres distance, because I

12 was involved in that tobacco business and I used to sell tobacco to him.

13 Q. On the questions of my learned colleague yesterday, when

14 Mr. Boskoski's photograph was shown to you, together with his body-guard,

15 if I remember well - I can't really quote - you probably said that it must

16 be the mistake of the interpretation when "Goran" was written down instead

17 of "Blagoje"; is that correct?

18 A. Yes. The interpreter was not that good, and I guess he did not

19 understand me. I have known this person for 15 years. He used to work in

20 the Bit Pazar police station.

21 Q. Thank you. Is it correct, Mr. Ramadani, that while staying in the

22 Mirkovci police station, the medical officers have arrived twice at the

23 call of the police to examine you?

24 A. Yes. After they completed two police shifts, after they carried

25 out this beating and torture, this is how they treated us. It didn't look

Page 1083

1 as serious behaviour to me, their behaviour towards defenceless civilians.

2 Q. Finally, is it correct, Mr. Ramadani, that the police called the

3 ambulance to take Atulla Qaili to the hospital, and then on the next day,

4 to transfer several more wounded prisoners; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Is it correct that you were not taken to the hospital at that time

7 but that you were taken to the court, where you gave the statement; and

8 after that, you were transferred to the Shutka Prison; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's true.

10 Q. Is it correct that a few days after being arrested, due to the

11 appendicitis, you were taken to the hospital and there was a surgery

12 performed over you?

13 A. I would kindly ask you, you as a Defence representative, that this

14 was not the reason why I was hospitalised. The reason was that I was

15 seriously beaten. You should be ashamed to ask me questions of this kind.

16 I was not there hospitalised because of appendicitis. I was there because

17 I was beaten.

18 We are here to tell the truth, and you, personally, I don't know

19 where you lived at that time, in Croatia or in Bosnia, you received

20 information which is not true.

21 Q. Mr. Ramadani, is it correct that you were given an appropriate

22 medical assistance, you've been operated, and then you remained in the

23 hospital until you recovered?

24 A. No, that's not correct. They did what they wanted with me. I

25 witnessed torture there as well. I was hit there, too. I don't know who

Page 1084

1 hit me. I was hit and beaten up in the hospital as well. They kept me

2 there as long as they wanted, two or three days. There were no rules.

3 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Ramadani, that after you were released from the

4 remand upon being pardoned by Mr. Trajkovski, by President Trajkovski, you

5 never filed any criminal charges against the persons ill-treating you in

6 Ljuboten, in the prison, in the Shutka Remand Prison, and in the hospital?

7 A. Yes. But let me ask you: How can I press charges against them

8 when they protect and defend a criminal, financially and otherwise? How

9 can you file charges in a state that defends and protects perpetrators?

10 This is quite impossible. I know what the rules are, but it was

11 impossible for us to do it.

12 Q. Mr. Ramadani, is it correct that you -- neither you nor anyone

13 else from the village had no trust in the police and no trust in the

14 Macedonian government, and that was the reason why you never pressed any

15 charges against someone who ill-treated you?

16 A. It is true. How can you press charges against someone who

17 actually killed members of your family, attacked your house? It was the

18 state who should take the necessary measures to bring to justice what

19 happened. If we really followed what the laws said, the law is not only

20 for Macedonians. It should apply to Albanians as well, because Albanians

21 have lived there for ages. They are indigenous people of that country as

22 well.

23 Q. Tell me, Mr. Ramadani, is it correct that you, and all the others

24 who were with you, trusted only the international organisations and that

25 they spoke to them only, and it was only to them that they would give

Page 1085

1 statements?

2 A. That's correct. When they released us, they should have come to

3 our houses and asked what happened, and they should tell us that these

4 crimes will be tried and justice will be brought.

5 Q. But because of the great mistrust that you felt, you did not let

6 the Macedonian police come to your houses and interview you about the

7 events that took place; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct, because we do not trust them because of what

9 happened to us.

10 Q. You didn't even want to discuss things with the Defence counsels

11 of the accused, this year, the year before, for the same reasons? Even

12 today, you're not prepared to discuss issues with the Macedonian police

13 and the Macedonian authorities; is that correct?

14 A. That's correct, no way. I would not discuss things with them in

15 any way.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have a few more

17 questions, but they are an entirety, so maybe it would be good to take the

18 break now and then in the ten minutes after it I will finish my

19 examination.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Very well. We will resume, then, at 11.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Residovic.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

25 Q. Mr. Ramadani, you surely remember that in April of 2002,

Page 1086

1 exhumation of the bodies of the people who were killed on that date, 12th

2 of August, 2001, was performed?

3 A. That's correct. I was present there.

4 Q. But before that exhumation, representatives of the OSCE and

5 representatives of the International Tribunal have had a meeting with the

6 family members of the persons who were killed; is that correct?

7 A. Can you repeat the question, please?

8 Q. Of course. A month before the exhumation started, representatives

9 of the International Community; namely, OSCE and the International

10 Tribunal, came to Ljuboten and had a meeting with the representatives of

11 the families of the persons who were killed; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask now that the

14 witness is shown 65 ter number 1D83, 1D1143. I would like to ask that the

15 table routed correctly.

16 Q. Mr. Ramadani, we have here the names of the representatives of the

17 families who were present in the meeting with the OSCE and the

18 representatives of the ICTY. Before I ask further questions, could you

19 recall or can I remind you and say that this meeting took place in the

20 school of Ljuboten on the 8th of March, 2002?

21 A. This is not correct about the school.

22 Q. The meeting you had before the exhumation took place?

23 A. If I understand you, I don't remember where the meeting was held.

24 I know that there was a meeting.

25 Q. If you look at this overview of names, in the penultimate place,

Page 1087

1 the name "Ramadani, Osman" is written; and in the second column,

2 "Relationship to the deceased," it says, "Son." Is that data yours,

3 Mr. Ramadani? Were you the person present in the meeting?

4 A. Yes, that's correct. I was present.

5 Q. And you were present as a representative of your family on the

6 occasion of the death of your father, Muharem Ramadani; is that correct?

7 Your Honours, considering that the witness verified the document,

8 we seek to tender it as a Defence exhibit.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received under seal.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 1D8 under seal, Your Honours.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Now I would like to ask that the

12 witness is shown the document 1D82, page 1D1140.

13 Q. Mr. Ramadani, this document was compiled by the representative of

14 the ICTY, Howard Tucker. In relation to this document, I will ask you

15 some questions. But before that, considering that the document is in the

16 English language, I will read it to you so that you get the translation.

17 In the document, at the very beginning, the word "Purpose" or the

18 "Objective" of the meeting is written. It is written in the English

19 language: "[In English] Meeting the representatives of the families of

20 the deceased from Ljuboten, Republic of Macedonia to discuss the

21 operational plan for the exhumation at the cemetery of the village of

22 Ljuboten."

23 Was the purpose of this meeting to discuss the exhumation of the

24 bodies of the persons who were killed?

25 A. Yes, it was.

Page 1088

1 Q. In this part, where it states "Location," it says: "[In English]

2 In Ljuboten, Republic of Macedonia." [Interpretation] So it took place at

3 the school. Does this remind you that meeting took place at the school?

4 A. I do not remember. There were many such events. I do not

5 remember that it was in the school, but it is true that we discussed this

6 issue.

7 Q. Because of the names that follow, I would like to ask that we move

8 into private session briefly.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1089











11 Page 1089 redacted. Private session.















Page 1090

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. So, Mr. Ramadani, now we have here the third page of the notes

17 compiled by the ICTY investigator, and I would like to show you the

18 sentence in the seventh paragraph counting from the top, or the fourth one

19 if we count from the bottom only, where the investigator says, speaking

20 about his conclusion: "[In English] They still carry a huge mistrust of

21 anything Macedonian."

22 [Interpretation] Did the investigator convey your sentiment

23 correctly, that you had a huge mistrust of anything Macedonian; is that

24 correct?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 1091

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

2 Your Honours, I now seek to tender this document as a Defence

3 exhibit.

4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

5 THE REGISTRAR: It will be --

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I thank you now, Mr. Ramadani, for

7 answering my questions.

8 Your Honours, I have completed the cross-examination of the

9 witness.

10 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit 1D9, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I seek that the document is

13 received under seal, because it contains names of protected witnesses.

14 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.

15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, the witness, Osman

16 Ramadani, will be cross-examined by my colleague, Jasmina Zivkovic.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Zivkovic.

18 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

19 Cross-examination by Ms. Zivkovic:

20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Ramadani. My name is Jasmina Zivkovic, and

21 together with my learned colleague, Antonio Apostolski, I am the Defence

22 counsel for Mr. Johan Tarculovski.

23 Mr. Ramadani, we heard yesterday from my learned colleague the

24 Prosecutor, Mrs. Motoike, that you were born and you grew up in Ljuboten.

25 I suppose that you have lived there all your life and that it is there

Page 1092

1 where you completed your education. Is that correct?

2 A. That's correct, elementary school.

3 Q. And you received teaching in the primary school in your native

4 language, the Albanian?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. You live with your family, with your wife and children, in the

7 same house with your brother, Ismail Ramadani?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. All right. Today, you also told my learned colleague, Residovic,

10 that you were selling cigarettes at Bit Pazar market; is that correct?

11 A. No, I beg your pardon. Before the -- before the war, I was in Bit

12 Pazar. Now I work as a farmer.

13 Q. And tell me, for how long were you involved in selling cigarettes?

14 A. I told you, ten to 15 years, but not with cigarettes but with

15 tobacco producing.

16 Q. So then did you have a shop, a stall, for this Bit Pazar?

17 A. We sold it informally. This is where -- from this, someone can

18 see how freedom we had. We were not even allowed to sell our own product.

19 Q. Thank you. Mr. Ramadani, in your consolidated 92 ter statement of

20 the 20th of April, 2007, P197, our number 2D2636, in the page 7, in

21 paragraph 20, line 7, you say, and I quote: "I know that there was a

22 certain number of villagers who were NLA members."

23 Is that correct?

24 A. No, that's not correct.

25 Q. Could you clarify what is incorrect, that you stated this or that

Page 1093

1 there were no villagers who were NLA members?

2 A. Could you please repeat the question? I do not understand the

3 question because it seems as though there are two different questions in

4 one. Could you please repeat the question?

5 Q. All right. I will then repeat it. I quoted from your words, from

6 your statement of the 20th of April, 2007, where you stated that you knew

7 that a certain number of villagers were members of the NLA. My question

8 is: Is it correct that you have stated this?

9 A. No, that's not correct. I have not given such information in any

10 statement of mine.

11 Q. All right. Do you know a person by the name of Ruhem Jashari,

12 Mr. Ramadani?

13 A. Yes. He is a cousin of mine.

14 Q. Do you know his brother?

15 A. Yes, I know him.

16 Q. In your consolidated 92 ter statement of the 22nd of April, 2007,

17 P197, our number 2D2636, in the page 5, paragraph 11, line 6, you say, and

18 I quote the question: "Was Ruhem a member of NLA?"

19 And the answer is: "No. I know that his brother was a member of

20 the NLA, but not Ruhem."

21 Can you tell us, is this correct, that you have stated this?

22 A. Is it my statement? What has been said here, that his brother

23 was member of the NLA, I don't think I have said that. They have put this

24 here only to make me such a question. I was not interested in other

25 people. I was only interested in my family, in what would happen with my

Page 1094

1 family. I'm not interested in these kind of questions. My family never

2 had any NLA members. We didn't even interfere or engage in such things.

3 Q. Mr. Ramadani, you say here, "They have put this just to ask me

4 this question." Can you clarify, who put this to ask you a question, in

5 order to ask you a question? Who is "they," who are you referring to?

6 A. The person that is asking the question has probably put that

7 there; and if someone has said that I have given such a statement, he

8 could just come and say that here. I was never interested in those

9 things. I was only interested in my family. If I was such a family, I

10 wouldn't be here now.

11 Q. All right. I just read from your statement that you gave to the

12 ICTY investigator.

13 A. I ask that not to ask me questions that have nothing to do with

14 me. I want to be asked about questions related to what I have gone

15 through.

16 Q. All right. I just ask the question from something that you

17 stated.

18 A. It is not a question for me.

19 Q. Okay. Can you tell me -- can you tell me, then, do you know the

20 name of his brother?

21 A. He is a cousin of mine. How could I not know my cousin? But it

22 seems that someone knows better than I do.

23 Q. What is his name? Can you answer my question?

24 A. Orhan.

25 Q. Mr. Ramadani, were you ever a member of the NLA or another

Page 1095

1 terrorist organisation?

2 A. Do not make me such questions. I said that I wasn't. If I were,

3 I wouldn't have suffered so much with my family, spiritual and all that.

4 Q. I am only asking you to answer my questions briefly so that we do

5 not waste any time.

6 A. Please, make to me questions about what I have gone through. Ask

7 me -- tell me who killed my father, who killed my cousins.

8 Q. Tell me, Mr. Ramadani, were you maybe a supporter, a sympathiser

9 of NLA or any other terrorist organisation?

10 A. No. I have had -- I have never had anything to do with all that,

11 and I guarantee for my family 100 per cent.

12 Q. All right. Mr. Ramadani, in your consolidated statement,

13 92 ter(B) 197, our number 2D2636, of the 22nd of April, 2007, in the page

14 4, paragraph 5, line 3, you say: "I remember even today that on the

15 Friday, two shells fell."

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And then the boy, Erxham, was killed?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is it correct that it took place between 1700 and 1800 hours on

20 the --

21 A. I do not know exactly the time. We had other things on our minds

22 then than to look at the clock, but I am sure that it was in the

23 afternoon.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter finishes the question: -- on the

25 10th of August, 2001.

Page 1096

1 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Yesterday, before this court, your brother, Ismail Ramadani,

3 stated that the boy was killed on the Friday morning. You do not agree

4 with that, I suppose?

5 A. I do not agree. Maybe he looked at the watch. I just saw with my

6 eyes that the boy was killed by the shell.

7 Q. Thank you. So if someone would say that the village of Ljuboten

8 was shelled on the Friday morning, you would not agree with this?

9 A. I do not agree with heavy artillery, with automatic rifles. As a

10 matter of fact, all this started as of 7.00 in the morning.

11 Q. Are we now talking about the 10th of August, 2001?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right, thank you. All right, Mr. Ramadani. All the way until

14 the Saturday evening, you were inside your house with your family?

15 A. [No verbal response]

16 Q. I apologise. I did not hear the answer.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And after that, you took shelter in the basement of your friend?

19 A. Not a friend; next of kin. He is not a friend. He is not a

20 co-villager. We are relatives.

21 Q. All right. Thank you. I suppose you were not able to leave the

22 basement because of the shelling?

23 A. It's normal. You know better than I. You just ask the question.

24 She knows everything, what happened and how it happened. The criminals

25 are here. They know what they did in that village. They know everything.

Page 1097

1 You are just asking false questions. They are all false questions to us.

2 Q. I have to ask you, again, to just answer my questions.

3 A. We couldn't get out. We couldn't get out because of the shelling.

4 How do you think we could go -- we could get out?

5 Q. All right. Thank you. Tell me, while you were in the basement,

6 you didn't have any communication with anyone from the village?

7 A. How can we communicate when we could not get out of the yard?

8 Q. So no one from among you had a mobile phone so that you could

9 communicate and learn where the Macedonian security forces were located?

10 A. We knew where they were. They were deployed three months before

11 the events around the village. We did not have any communication. Why

12 should we have any communication? We were civilians. We trusted that

13 nothing would happen to us.

14 Q. I apologise. I don't know whether you understood my question.

15 A. Yes. I did understand your question, but your questions for me

16 are misinformation.

17 Q. I would still like to ask you to answer my question again. Did

18 someone from the people who were in the basement with you speak with the

19 village inhabitants via a mobile phone on that day, 12th of August, the

20 Sunday?

21 A. I understand. We didn't have such cellphones. They should tell

22 that they have robbed us before getting us from the basement. There were

23 other phones, but they were interrupted.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Land lines.

Page 1098

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. In your 92 ter consolidated statement from 22nd of April, 2007,

3 P197, 2D2636, page 10, paragraph 28, line 3, you say, and I quote: "The

4 shelling stopped around 12.00, and then the army and the police entered

5 the yard."

6 Is that correct?

7 A. I cannot tell whether the time is correct. It is correct that

8 they entered, and it is correct that this is the way they entered: First,

9 the army should and then they entered, the police.

10 Q. I assume you saw the security forces through the window, the

11 window to the basement where you were hiding.

12 A. No. We couldn't see them. If you were in my place, I would ask

13 you if you could see them.

14 Q. Could you answer my question? Was there -- let me make it

15 clearer. Was there a window in the basement?

16 A. Yes. There was a window, half a metre by half a metre. I would

17 like to see a photograph. I would even want to see the people that were

18 killed.

19 Q. Could you please recall and tell us, how many members of the

20 security forces you saw at that time?

21 A. I'm sorry, but she knows better than I. If she had her head

22 covered as we had our heads covered, then we shall see if she can tell how

23 many there were and if she could tell anything.

24 Q. I did not get an answer to my question again.

25 A. I think you understood very well.

Page 1099

1 Q. Mr. Ramadani, please answer my questions. I wasn't there. You

2 came here to tell the truth, and I believe that all us here would like to

3 hear the right answers. Therefore, I would like you to explain and tell

4 me, if you know, of course, and if you remember.

5 A. I would ask the Counsel to avoid making me questions which, for

6 me, are questions that serve to nothing, but I will try to answer.

7 I could see something. My head was covered with clothes. I

8 cannot exactly say how many they were. Here we have the criminals

9 present. They know exactly how many there were.

10 Q. Okay. Thank you. That means you don't even remember what kind of

11 weapons they wore and what kind of uniforms they wore?

12 A. I would like to ask of you, if we were allowed, as it is

13 prescribed by law, to see them, but they have treated us as animals.

14 Q. Okay. So then the security forces members ordered you to go

15 outside and to lay down on the floor --

16 INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: On the ground.

17 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Could you please tell us, what was the way that you were laying on

19 the ground when you got out?

20 A. I apologise, but I have to use these words. We had to lie down as

21 dogs.

22 Q. Tell me, you left the basement through the door to the house; is

23 that correct?

24 A. This question has no meaning, and I keep telling you that. You

25 should ask me about what happened, exactly. You know very well what we

Page 1100

1 used to get out. We went out through the half-metre-by-half-metre window,

2 and they ordered us to go through this window. These accused know very

3 well how we left that basement.

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani. Could you give me an answer to the

5 previous question that I already posed but never got an answer to? Maybe

6 we misunderstood each other. My question was to explain us in which way

7 were you told by the security members to lay down on the ground in front

8 of the house.

9 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Motoike.

11 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour, if I may inquire of the learned

12 counsel, if this really goes to material issue, we've heard from other

13 witnesses who have previously testified about perhaps some slight

14 inconsistencies as to the manner in which they were laying down.

15 JUDGE PARKER: I see no basis to interfere with the questioning at

16 the moment, thank you.

17 Carry on, please, Ms. Zivanovic.

18 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Q. Mr. Ramadani, once you got out, you were ordered to lie down on

20 the ground in one row; is that correct?

21 A. We were not lying down on ground. We were lying down on a

22 concrete ground, and we were not lined up but we were lying down.

23 Q. You were all in one row?

24 A. Please. I saw my brother there somewhere further up or further

25 down. We were not allowed to see, and we were undergoing tortures. They

Page 1101

1 were cursing us. It was impossible for us to see how many columns we were

2 and how we were lying down.

3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Ramadani, in your statement and additions and the

4 changes, 92 ter P197 of 24th of April, 2007 -- I apologise, P198, our

5 number 2D2447, page 4, paragraph 22, line 3, you thereby say: "I was able

6 to hear -- I could hear Sulejman Bajrami running, and then I heard a

7 shot."

8 Is that correct?

9 A. Yes. I will tell you now. Sulejman was lying down, he was hit on

10 his head, they forced him to walk ahead, and they shot at him.

11 Q. All right. Thank you. After that, you started walking towards

12 Ljubanci; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct. They made us take off our shoes. We were

14 barefoot.

15 Q. Mr. Ramadani, were you followed by an armoured vehicle [as

16 interpreted] on that occasion?

17 I apologise. My question was plural, "vehicles." Maybe the

18 interpretation was wrong.

19 A. Two Hermelins entered the village.

20 Q. All right. Thank you. When you were walking towards Ljubanci,

21 did you see any other vehicles, apart from those Hermelins that you just

22 mentioned?

23 A. Yes. When we were at Brace's house, they loaded us as if we were

24 logs on this military truck.

25 Q. So except for the Hermelins and that truck, you saw nothing else

Page 1102

1 on your path towards the Brace house?

2 A. I already told you, we were not able to see. Our head was covered

3 with T-shirts.

4 Q. And after some time, as you told us, you were transferred by a

5 truck to the Mirkovci police station, and after some time to the hospital?

6 A. No. I was not taken to hospital, but my relatives and my brother,

7 they went to the hospital. Only a few of us remained there.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ramadani. Tell me, are you familiar with the name

9 "Commander Miskoja"?

10 A. Please, this is disgraceful. This "Miskoja," meaning mosquito in

11 English, we keep our houses safe so that they don't get in our houses. I

12 don't know where you get this term.

13 Q. Can you please answer to my question without commenting, please?

14 A. But this is quite interesting, in fact, how they made a human

15 being out of an insect, how they use an insect to refer to a human being.

16 Q. Do you know that the commander I asked you about, that he tried to

17 enter the village of Ljuboten with his troops on the Sunday afternoon?

18 A. This has nothing to do with what happened. Whoever mentioned this

19 person by this name, he or she should come here and testify if that is

20 true or not. Please, Defence counsel, do not ask me questions based on

21 misinformation.

22 Q. Okay. I thank you. Mr. Ramadani, was the Basic Court Skopje II

23 the one who released you for the acts about which there were charges

24 pressed against you?

25 A. You know very well how we were released. We were not released by

Page 1103

1 the court. We were released by the president of the state, because he

2 realised what were the real reasons why we were there. It says in the

3 pardoning that we were allegedly something, but, anyways, "we will pardon

4 you." They exactly what they wanted to do with us.

5 Q. So we couldn't agree that you were pardoned by President

6 Trajkovski as an NLA member in accordance with the Ohrid Framework

7 Agreement?

8 A. Yes. It looks like that, but we were not members of the NLA. We

9 were presented as members just to facilitate our release and not --

10 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Ramadani.

11 Your Honours, I have no further questions.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Zivkovic.

13 Mr. Motoike.

14 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Re-examination by Ms. Motoike:

16 Q. Mr. Ramadani, you were asked about reporting the offences to the

17 Macedonian authorities or police. Did any Macedonian police body or

18 authoritative body ever try to contact you about the events in Ljuboten

19 that you've described?

20 A. Thank you for asking me this question. No, because it was these

21 authorities who imprisoned us, who massacred us, who killed us, who

22 tortured us, who beat us up. We ended up in prison. How could these

23 authorities come and ask us these questions when they were actually

24 satisfied why we were there and in that condition, although we were

25 simple, ordinary civilians.

Page 1104

1 Q. Mr. Ramadani, do you know if the Macedonian police or any

2 authoritative body from Macedonia ever try to contact the village head in

3 Ljuboten about the events?

4 A. While I was in prison, for this period, I cannot tell you. I

5 cannot ascertain if this is true or not for this period of time, but

6 personally I don't think so.

7 Q. You mentioned a gentleman by the name of Goran, and you indicated

8 that that person used to work at Bit Pazar police station. Can you tell

9 us, how do you know that this person was a police officer in Bit Pazar?

10 A. I know him very well, not only him but his family as well, because

11 he used to serve his military service together with an in-law of mine in

12 the JNA. So when I was selling tobacco in Bit Pazar, he used to work in

13 this police station there.

14 Q. How was he dressed when he was employed with the Bit Pazar police

15 station?

16 A. As a normal police officer.

17 Q. What do you mean by that?

18 A. Normal police uniform.

19 Q. Can you describe the normal police uniform?

20 A. Normal clothes of the police, a blue colour. If it's warm

21 weather, they would wear shirts; if it's cold weather, jackets. But it's

22 a normal police uniform with the insignia, "Police."

23 Q. Could you tell us, if you can, could you tell us, where is Bit

24 Pazar in relation to Ljuboten, as far as location?

25 A. It's 12 kilometres from Ljuboten.

Page 1105

1 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honours. I have nothing further.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Motoike.

3 You'll be pleased to know, Mr. Ramadani, that that concludes the

4 questions for you. The Chamber would thank you for coming to The Hague

5 and for the assistance that you've been able to give. You are of course

6 now able to return to your home, and the Court Officer will show you out.

7 Thank you.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE PARKER: Perhaps this is a convenient time to look to the

11 incidental matters, Mr. Saxon.

12 MR. SAXON: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 The Prosecution has two matters to raise at this time. First of

14 all, we would respectfully ask the Chamber whether it has had some time to

15 ponder the Prosecution's motion that was filed yesterday to remove certain

16 witnesses from its list. There are two persons named in that motion who

17 are scheduled to travel here next week. One of those would be M-003 and

18 the other would be M-004, and it would certainly be helpful to the

19 Prosecution if the Defence could provide its position, and the Chamber as

20 well, as to whether we might be able to cancel the travel of these two

21 witnesses or not.

22 JUDGE PARKER: The Chamber has not heard anything of the position

23 of the Defence, so it certainly has not formed views about this matter,

24 Mr. Saxon. We can understand your desire to minimise unnecessary travel.

25 We're also conscious, though, of the limited rate of progress through the

Page 1106

1 anticipated witnesses. Almost without exception, the Prosecution

2 examination of witnesses seems to take at least the time that has been

3 estimated for the whole of the witness's evidence, including

4 cross-examination and re-examination. So we are running slowly, and we

5 are somewhat surprised to see the witness, M-021, who is listed for next

6 Wednesday, is listed for only two hours, which would seem to us to be a

7 noteworthy underestimate of what is likely.

8 So I make those observations to point out that some of the

9 problems that are being encountered are of the Prosecution's own making.

10 I will now see if Defence counsel are in a position to assist.

11 MR. METTRAUX: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

13 Mr. Mettraux.

14 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you.

15 On a few matters, we can indicate at this stage that we will have

16 no objection to the withdrawing of the first five thin witnesses mentioned

17 on the application, which would include the two witnesses mentioned by my

18 colleague, Mr. Saxon, if that assists the Trial Chamber.

19 We would wish, however, to make further submissions in relation to

20 the last of these witnesses, M-86. But before I do that, the Defence

21 would indicate as well that the time which has been forecasted, so to say,

22 for Witness M-21 seems to be an enormous underestimation of the time

23 needed for this witness.

24 I believe that his statement is 26 pages long and refers to many,

25 many issues as well as many, many documents. So we would ask at this

Page 1107

1 stage perhaps for the Prosecution to give another estimate, or at least we

2 can give this indication to the Chamber, that we believe our

3 cross-examination would be much, much longer than the estimate in

4 question.

5 If I may continue, Your Honour, on the Witness number 6, M-86.

6 Your Honour will remember that last week on the 10th of May, a

7 number of documents were presented to one Prosecution witness, M-17, and I

8 can direct Your Honour to 643 to 654 of the transcript. At this time,

9 Your Honour will remember that my colleague, Ms. Residovic, objected to

10 two documents presented at the time. The objection at the time was

11 essentially that the witness in question was unable to give evidence as to

12 the manner or preparation of that document, of the circumstances of that

13 document, and any other matter relevant to the reliability of those

14 documents. Your Honour admitted these documents, however, and the Defence

15 indicated that the witness in question would be coming as a witness to

16 give evidence.

17 Well, the author of one of these documents is the witness, who has

18 now been withdrawn by the Prosecution, and the Defence is very, very

19 concerned, Your Honour, about the request by the Prosecution.

20 It seems, I insist, it seems to be the Prosecution case that this

21 document is indicative of a sort of a nationwide joint criminal

22 enterprise, in which a very large number of individuals, members of the

23 Ministry of Interior or members of other institutions of the state, were

24 involved in perhaps a wall of silence. Those accusations are pretty

25 serious, and they are particularly serious if they are being made against

Page 1108

1 a witness. Now, this witness, if withdrawn from the Prosecution list,

2 will not get an opportunity to respond to this proposition, if that is

3 indeed the proposition of the Prosecution.

4 But more importantly for us, Your Honour, is the unfairness that

5 is created to the defendant. Now we are faced with a Prosecution theory

6 of the case based on documents which have not been presented to anyone

7 capable of giving evidence of the whys of its content, the manner in which

8 it was made, and the reliability of these documents, and we are unable to

9 cross-examine a witness capable of giving that evidence.

10 We have indicated, Your Honour, in the pre-trial conference, I

11 believe, that we were concerned, to say the least, about the way in which

12 the Prosecution case appeared to be sculpted. Your Honour had been told

13 about an alleged sham investigation, but you will not see the president of

14 that commission. You have also been told that there was no investigation

15 in this case, but Your Honour will not hear about any Prosecution of any

16 investigative judge who were involved in the investigation of this case.

17 Now Your Honour is being told that these documents are evidence of a joint

18 criminal enterprise and that a number of members of the Ministry of

19 Interior were involved therein, but you will not hear from that

20 individual.

21 What the Defence proposes, Your Honour, or what we would wish in

22 those circumstances, is for Your Honour to invite the Prosecution to call

23 this witness. The Defence is not certain that Your Honour would have the

24 authority to order the Prosecution to do so under the Rules, but we would

25 respectfully ask that Your Honour be inviting the Prosecution to call that

Page 1109

1 witness, so that this document can be put to that witness so that he can

2 answer any suggestions or allegations which have been made about this

3 document. We also believe that it would be very relevant and very

4 important from the Court to hear, if you wish, the other side of the

5 story, so that the truth of the matter, if that is the word, may be tested

6 through this witness.

7 Thank you, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

9 Is there anything you need to add, Mr. Apostolski?

10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I completely

11 support the presentation of my learned colleague, so I would not like to

12 repeat, and that's in the interests of time.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.

14 MR. SAXON: I would refer the Trial Chamber to a decision from the

15 case of Prosecutor versus Halilovic, dated 7 February 2005, at page 6,

16 where the Chamber held: "In principle, it is for each party to decide

17 which witnesses to call to prove its case," and, "holding that Defence

18 objections to Prosecution proposed withdrawal of witnesses was not

19 justified."

20 Your Honours, if there is a need for this Chamber to hear the

21 other side of the story, to quote my learned friend, then that can be

22 accomplished. If the Prosecution does not call a particular person, the

23 Defence can call the person during the Defence phase of the case for any

24 particular points they wish to show.

25 The suggestion that the Prosecution has alleged a so-called

Page 1110

1 nationwide JCE, in this case, is not only incorrect, it's also, if I may

2 say so, inflammatory.

3 My learned friend has told you that you won't see the president of

4 a particular commission that was established to allegedly investigate the

5 facts of this case. However, you will see at least two other members of

6 that commission, gentlemen who are on the Prosecution's list of witnesses.

7 Therefore, it's the Prosecution's position that it should be

8 permitted to drop witnesses whom it no longer feels are necessary to prove

9 its case, and any possible problem or concern caused to the Defence can be

10 cured very simply. The Defence can call that person during their case.

11 JUDGE PARKER: I think we've heard enough, Mr. Mettraux. Thank

12 you.

13 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you.

14 JUDGE PARKER: That's a convenient reason for me to make a further

15 observation unrelated to this application so that counsel are aware of it

16 in future paper-dueling battles between them.

17 Counsel may have noticed, in the last decision of the Chamber, we

18 allowed leave to file a reply, which is a step beyond that which the Rules

19 normally allow, but we did not allow a further reply and then a further

20 reply to the reply to the reply. Counsel need to work out, at the

21 beginning, what is the measure of their case on the issue, their point,

22 and put it; then, unless there's been some significant surprise, there

23 will be no need to reply because you will have dealt with the merits of

24 your position.

25 Leaving aside moments where people are genuinely taken by

Page 1111

1 surprise, and that can occur, the Chamber will not be allowing these

2 prolonged verbal battles to go on, taking a lot of energy and time and

3 usually achieving nothing of great substance. We think it's going to be

4 in the interests of the speedier completion of the trial and the more

5 harmonious proceedings if counsel can confine themselves to the real

6 merits in the first submission.

7 Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to just add those little

8 words. If you'll excuse us now for a moment.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon,, Witnesses 1 to 5 in paragraph 2 of your

11 motion are not the subject of any dispute, and the Chamber grants leave

12 for you to withdraw them from your witness list.

13 The sixth witness, M-086, was a witness you, as I recall, intended

14 to call primarily to produce a document. Admission of that document was

15 not disputed on the basis of authenticity but was disputed on the basis of

16 reliability. The Chamber, because there was no dispute as to authenticity

17 of a document of a public nature from the records of the Ministry,

18 admitted the document, but did indicate the issues of reliability would be

19 able to be considered further in cross-examination as the witness was to

20 be called.

21 It's the view of the Chamber, in those circumstances, that

22 fairness would require that we do not grant you leave to amend your

23 witness list to withdraw the name of the sixth witness. Thank you.

24 Now, was there any matter before we move to the next witness?

25 MR. SAXON: Following up on your encouragement of producing

Page 1112

1 harmony between the Prosecution and Defence counsel, yesterday and also

2 this morning there was a full and frank discussion between the Prosecution

3 counsel and our colleagues regarding the need to move into private

4 session, and there is now a consensus between the parties that, with the

5 Judges' permission, the parties will no longer move into private session

6 simply when they are referring to a particular individual or, for example,

7 the name of the owner of a home, for example; instead, the parties will

8 only try to move into private session when they need to refer to an

9 individual and the fact that person will be a witness in this case.

10 With your leave, that would be the proposed conduct for the

11 future.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much for that, Mr. Saxon. It is, in

13 fact, shall we say, a return to what is the appropriate position. But at

14 the beginning stages of this trial, with everybody needing to become

15 familiar with procedural issues and to become more familiar with what were

16 the sensitive issues in the trial, it certainly was, I think, helpful, on

17 the safe side, for there to be additional caution in the use of private

18 sessions; that is, using them more than might really be justified.

19 The important thing is that the viewing and listening public

20 should not be aware that a protected witness is a witness. A fact that a

21 protected witness is named in a neutral context in the trial creates no

22 such understanding. If somebody is say, "On Monday at the shopping

23 centre, I met six people," and names them, it says nothing about one of

24 those persons being a witness in this trial. So the position that counsel

25 have agreed upon is a very welcomed step. It's at a good time in the

Page 1113

1 proceedings for us to move to that practice, and we encourage -- we both

2 thank counsel for what they have done, and we encourage them to keep

3 looking at any of these particular difficulties to see whether we cannot

4 minimise them more, because the more we can minimise, the more smoothly

5 and quickly the proceedings will flow.

6 Could I mention, Mr. Saxon, that when you yesterday indicated that

7 you wished to remove witnesses from the witness list, including two who

8 were listed to be called next week, it was my first reaction that you

9 probably would not need to try to fit any more in next week to replace the

10 two that you were removing, partly because of the somewhat

11 underestimation, on average, which I hope we will gradually be able to

12 prove the estimation right by speeding up, but nevertheless at the moment

13 we are not moving this quickly as the estimate; and, secondly, because of

14 the witness M-21, which I think we can see will take time longer than the

15 estimate. So you know more closely than we do, of course, but I think

16 even with the two witnesses that are now removed from your list, even with

17 those taken out of the schedule, I suspect we will be hard pressed to

18 finish the remaining witnesses that you have listed for next week.

19 MR. SAXON: Your point is well taken, Your Honour.

20 MR. METTRAUX: Very briefly, with the leave of the Chamber, Your

21 Honour.

22 Two very short matters. The first one has to do with a point of

23 clarification.

24 Your Honour has admitted a number of documents pursuant to the

25 Prosecution application from the Bar table. The clarification we are

Page 1114

1 seeking, Your Honour, is that a number of the documents which are included

2 in this decision appear not to have been fully translated into English,

3 and the point of clarification is whether Your Honours have admitted the

4 documents in its entirety, pending translation, or only those parts that

5 have been translated into English.

6 The reason for our request, Your Honour, is yesterday we had to

7 obtain a separate translation of a part which had not yet been translated.

8 Thank you.

9 JUDGE PARKER: In the course of a very large decision dealing with

10 a great variety of exhibits, some of which had not been included in the

11 motion, dealing with a document such as, for example, a court file, I

12 think it became Exhibit 10 if I recall correctly --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters interfere: Could we ask the

14 counsel to speak a little bit slower?

15 MR. METTRAUX: Counsel will comply. I'm sorry.

16 JUDGE PARKER: And so will the Bench.

17 We took the view, given the nature of that document, the fact that

18 it was written in Macedonian, while conscious that the Prosecution, in its

19 annex, had identified only certain parts of it, we admitted the whole

20 document. The consequence is that there are some parts of it not formally

21 translated. It is unlikely, from our rough judgement of the issue, that

22 there will be anything material in the parts of the document that are not

23 translated. But if it is the concern of counsel that one or more of the

24 untranslated pages or documents within something like the court file is in

25 fact going to be material, then we would suggest that that be taken up

Page 1115

1 immediately with Mr. Saxon, and it ought to be possible to receive some

2 attention to that individual document.

3 We felt it important to have the whole file, but we did not feel

4 there was justification in insisting on the whole file being translated

5 when it is clear that quite a bit of it is merely procedural and is not

6 going to impinge upon the merits of this case. So we must ask counsel, if

7 they see a part of such exhibit that they feel is important, to then deal

8 with that document individually to get translations.

9 MR. METTRAUX: We're grateful for this clarification, Your Honour.

10 The last matter is a short, may I call pie for me, I hope it

11 doesn't become a daily incident, but yesterday you will recall, Your

12 Honour, that a document, or rather, an excerpt of a document was presented

13 to a witness, Mr. Ismail Ramadani. The document was presented in such a

14 way that Your Honour felt that it could have been misleading because of

15 the way in which it was presented. I would wish to dispel any impression

16 that there was any ill-intent in that regard. I would wish to indicate at

17 this stage that we had not intended to use the document prior to

18 cross-examination, and that I passed the document during the

19 cross-examination to the lead counsel with the suggestion to use -- to put

20 one proposition contained in this statement to this witness, and that

21 perhaps I should have been more careful in explaining to lead counsel the

22 where and the whys of this statement. Unfortunately, I didn't have the

23 time to do that, so therefore, Your Honour, the fault was mine.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Please, again, another request from the

25 interpreters for Mr. Mettraux to speak a little bit slower. It is very

Page 1116

1 difficult to follow.

2 MR. METTRAUX: I will again try my best the next time. Thank you.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that, Mr. Mettraux.

4 Looking at the time, this is probably a good moment to have the

5 break, and we can then resume and run through until 1.45.

6 Mr. Saxon.

7 MR. SAXON: And the next witness will be a witness in -- a

8 protected witness, in case arrangements need to be made.

9 JUDGE PARKER: And that will enable the court to be reset, yes.

10 We will adjourn now, then, and resume at five minutes before 1.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Please, again, another request from the

13 interpreters for Mr. Mettraux to speak a little bit slower. It is very

14 difficult to follow.

15 MR. METTRAUX: I will again try my best the next time. Thank you.

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that, Mr. Mettraux.

17 Looking at the time, this is probably a good moment to have the

18 break, and we can then resume and run through until 1.45.

19 Mr. Saxon.

20 MR. SAXON: And the next witness will be a witness in -- a

21 protected witness, in case arrangements need to be made.

22 JUDGE PARKER: And that will enable the court to be reset, yes.

23 We will adjourn now, then, and resume at five minutes before 1.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 1117

1 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir.

3 Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


7 [The witness answers through interpreter]

8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.

9 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, if I could trouble you again. Take that

10 piece of paper to the witness, please.

11 Examination by Mr. Saxon:

12 Q. Witness, without stating your true name, do you see your true name

13 written on that piece of paper in front of you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And today, instead of addressing you by your name, I will address

16 you by the number M-039. Is the other information on that piece of paper

17 correct?

18 A. It's correct.

19 MR. SAXON: Mr. Usher, could you please show that piece of paper

20 to Defence counsel.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: The blind is up.

22 MR. SAXON: Okay. And so, Your Honours, if you see me appear to

23 be twitching to my left periodically, it's just that I'm trying to check

24 where we are.

25 JUDGE PARKER: It's also the case that there is nobody in the

Page 1118

1 public room.

2 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, if that piece of paper could be admitted

3 into evidence under seal, we would be grateful.

4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received under seal.

5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P199 under seal, Your Honours.

6 MR. SAXON: Your Honours.

7 Q. Witness, on the 10th of -- this is not a question, Witness. I'm

8 just going to read a brief summary of your evidence: "On the 10th of

9 August, Witness M-039" -- I should say: "On the 10th of August, 2001,

10 Witness M-039 was beaten and mistreated at a police check-point, and his

11 car was fired at by a police unit. On that day, a number of Ljuboten

12 villagers fled to neighbouring towns, and at least one child was killed by

13 shelling."

14 I should say that, for the public, Witness M-039 was and remains a

15 resident of the village of Ljuboten.

16 "On the morning of 12 August 2001, M-039 and others sought

17 shelter at the home of Mr. Xhelal Bajrami due to the heavy shelling. At

18 around 2.00 p.m., screams and gunfire were heard from the direction of the

19 Ahmeti or Ametovski house. Witness M-039 ran and hid close to the home of

20 a man called Qani Jashari. Xhelal Bajrami, Bajram and Kadri Jashari

21 sought shelter in the house of Qani Jashari.

22 "Policemen arrived and fired at that house, and Witness M-039

23 later found the bodies of all three in a nearby field. When Witness M-039

24 last saw the three persons who died, these persons were not carrying any

25 weapons. The Macedonian police burned a number of houses and destroyed

Page 1119

1 property and livestock during the attack on 12 August 2001."

2 I'd like to ask Ms. Walpita, we have copies of the 92 bis

3 statements, is my understanding, is that correct, or at least one copy?

4 There were two, were there not? There were two statements, please.

5 Mr. Usher, if you could simply place these documents just in front

6 of the witness, please, in case he needs to look at them.

7 Q. Witness M-039, do you recall giving -- do you recall giving two

8 statements to members of the Office of the Prosecutor about the events

9 that you witnessed in Ljuboten village?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And do you recall, in August of 2006, that your two statements

12 were certified by an officer of this Tribunal; do you recall that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And at that time, do you recall that you had the opportunity to

15 review your statements in your native Albanian language?

16 A. Yes?

17 Q. And were the contents of your statements that you reviewed true

18 and correct?

19 A. True, true and correct.

20 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would tender these two statements that

21 have been certified pursuant to Rule 92 bis, please, under seal.

22 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P200 under seal, Your Honours.

24 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, could we briefly move into private

25 session.

Page 1120

1 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 1121

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.

3 MR. SAXON: And, Your Honour, I do believe my efficient case

4 manager has prepared some copies of the exhibits that I'm going to show

5 this witness. If they could be distributed to the Judges. Well, what I

6 just said was incorrect, Your Honour.

7 If the witness can be shown, please, 65 ter number 199.9, and this

8 is photo A on page 12 of your court binders, Your Honours. It has ERN

9 number N004-4694. That is not the photograph that I'm looking for. I'm

10 grateful to Ms. Greguric for her efficiency. That's fine, the photograph

11 is fine now. Thank you.

12 Q. Witness M-039, can you take a look at that photograph, please.

13 First of all, can you tell us, please ?

14 MR. SAXON: Perhaps again I will need the assistance of the usher.

15 Q. Can you please take the pen that's connected to the computer

16 screen in front of you and draw a circle around -- no, let me start again,

17 let me start again.

18 Do you see the home owned by Qani Jashari on that photograph?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Can you please take that pen and just draw a circle around that

21 house.

22 A. [Marks]

23 Q. Well, maybe you could erase that little circle and draw a circle

24 around the house.

25 A. [Marks]

Page 1122

1 Q. Just the house. Thank you. Could you, please, to the right, just

2 above that circle, just above it, could you write the initials "Q.J.,"

3 please?

4 A. In the middle or on the side?

5 Q. Just above, just above the circle that you drew.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. Thank you very much. Are you familiar with a compound of homes

8 that belonged to the Ametovski family?

9 A. Yes, I do.

10 Q. Could you mark an X above that home or homes?

11 A. [Marks]

12 Q. Okay. Witness M-039, roughly, roughly, how far would you say --

13 how far is the distance between the Ametovski homes and the home of Qani

14 Jashari, in metres, approximately?

15 A. Well, I'm not sure in metres. Maybe about 200 metres.

16 Q. All right. Witness M-039, on the 12th of August, was there a time

17 when you had to hide in some bushes?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell us, please, or can you perhaps draw an arrow

20 indicating more or less where you were, where you were hiding that day?

21 A. [Marks]

22 Q. Okay. Now, below that arrow, could you draw the letters -- or the

23 number "M-39"?

24 A. [Marks]

25 Q. All right. We see on this photograph, to the left of the number

Page 1123

1 "M-39", we see four homes that appear to be completely constructed. On

2 the 12th of August, 2001, had those homes been completed?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Those homes had been completed and were fully constructed on the

5 12th of August, 2001?

6 A. The first two, from the outside, they were complete; maybe not

7 from the inside, but the way you see them right now on the screen, this is

8 the way that they were.

9 Q. But there are four homes there. How about the other two? Were

10 they all completed from the outside?

11 A. Yes, from the outside.

12 Q. From the inside, were they completed?

13 A. From the inside, two of these houses were not completed.

14 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, at this time I would tender this

15 photograph, please.

16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P201, Your Honours.

18 MR. SAXON: If we could please look at Exhibit -- excuse me, 65

19 ter number 199.11, which is photo C on page 12 of the court binder. It has

20 ERN number N004-4698.

21 Q. Witness M-039, do you see this photograph?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And to save time, the house in the foreground, just to the right

24 of centre, is that again Qani Jashari's house?

25 A. Yes.

Page 1124

1 Q. Can you please, above that house, write the letters "Q.J.,"

2 please.

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. And, again, can you please mark with an arrow approximately where

5 you hid that day.

6 A. [Marks]

7 Q. And above those bushes, could you please write the number"M-39".

8 A. [Marks]

9 Q. Thank you. In that house, the house of Qani Jashari, we see two

10 windows, one above the other. Do you see those two windows?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. On the 12th of August, 2001, did you see anyone use that window,

13 move through that window?

14 A. (redacted)

15 Q. Okay. Coming out of which of the windows? There's two of them

16 there. The one on the top or the one on the bottom?

17 A. The one on the bottom.

18 Q. Can you draw a circle around that bottom window, please.

19 A. [Marks]

20 MR. SAXON: And, Your Honour, if there could be a redaction of an

21 identifying word on page 67, line 5, that would be helpful. It refers to

22 a familial relationship, the words (redacted)


24 MR. SAXON: Thank you.

25 Q. Witness, can you simply tell us the names of the people who came

Page 1125

1 out of that window? Nothing more about them, just their names.

2 A. Bajrami Jashari, Kadri Jashari, Xhelal Bajrami.

3 Q. When these three men came out of that window, were you able to see

4 where they went or which direction they went?

5 A. They came out of the window, then the house was on fire. There

6 was a haystack. There was a lot of smoke, and I don't know what else.

7 Q. All right. And do you know, were you able to observe what caused

8 the fire in the house and the haystack?

9 A. In the haystack, the Hermelin entered, and the haystack was set on

10 fire; then the house was set on fire, and then I couldn't see anything

11 else.

12 Q. Could you observe who was causing these fires?

13 A. This fire was set by the Macedonian police.

14 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would tender this exhibit, please.

15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P202, Your Honours.

17 MR. SAXON: If we could now please show the witness photographs

18 from Rule 65 ter number 187.

19 Q. Witness, do you see the photograph in front of you?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. SAXON: One moment, please.

22 Q. And what does this photograph depict?

23 A. The damages of the house and the way the house was burnt.

24 Q. And can you just -- just so the record is clear, whose house are

25 we seeing there?

Page 1126

1 A. This is the house of Qani Jashari.

2 Q. You see some handwriting below the photograph. Do you recognise

3 your handwriting there?

4 A. This is my handwriting.

5 Q. Can you read what it says, please?

6 A. "The damage caused to -- after the firing and after it was set on

7 fire by the Macedonian police on 12th of August, 2001, in my presence."

8 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, I would seek to tender this document, and

9 I'd also like you to know that we have produced another copy of this

10 photograph with the English translation of the Albanian words that you see

11 at the bottom, and it's my understanding it is also in e-court. Perhaps

12 our efficient Court Officer might be able to pull it up.

13 That's it. Thank you very much. We can see it now, we can see

14 the English translation on the right-hand side.

15 Your Honour, I would ask that both versions of this photograph be

16 admitted into evidence.

17 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P203, Your Honours.

19 MR. SAXON: Now, from the same 65 ter number, if we could please

20 show the witness the photograph with the ERN -- and I'm momentarily

21 confused because I am looking at two different ERNs on the same

22 photograph. Let's try for N000-0892. And if that doesn't work, I have a

23 Plan B. Let's try, then, N000-7826.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Could the counsel please repeat the first ERN?

25 MR. SAXON: The first ERN, N000-0892.

Page 1127

1 Could you possibly look for N000-7826? That would be the ERN next

2 in line from the previous exhibit.

3 If our luck is not good, I have a hard copy of the photograph and

4 we could plays it on the ELMO. That's it, our luck has turned, thanks to

5 Ms. Greguric. Can we zoom in a little bit, please. Thank you.

6 Q. Witness M-039, do you recognise the person shown in this

7 photograph?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And what does this photograph show?

10 A. Bajrami Jashari.

11 Q. If you know, at the time of this photograph, was Bajrami Jashari

12 alive or dead?

13 A. He was dead.

14 Q. Witness, I know this is difficult for you. I'll try to move

15 through this as quickly as I can.

16 Do you see the handwriting at the bottom of the photograph?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Can you recognise your handwriting?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you please read to us what you wrote there?

21 A. "This photograph is the same -- it depicts the same position as I

22 find it when they were killed."

23 Q. Does it say "I found it" or "I found them" on the day they were

24 killed?

25 A. "This is the photograph that depicts the position, the way I saw

Page 1128

1 him that day, dead."

2 MR. SAXON: And if we can also show the Chamber a copy of the same

3 photograph that has the English translation of this comment.

4 I'm sorry. I didn't see it. If that -- we can now see the

5 English translation that has been done.

6 Your Honour, I would seek to tender both versions of this

7 photograph, please, into evidence.

8 JUDGE PARKER: There are more photographs in this group being

9 tendered, are there not?

10 MR. SAXON: One more, Your Honour, just one more.

11 JUDGE PARKER: We will give them -- they're all in one set on

12 e-court, so we will give them one number.

13 MR. SAXON: Fine, Your Honour, thank you.

14 JUDGE PARKER: When it comes.

15 MR. SAXON: I do note that -- never mind, we'll move on.

16 If we can now show the witness, please, a photograph also from 65

17 ter number 187 with the ERN number N000-7827. I misspoke before, Your

18 Honour. There are two more photographs.

19 Q. Witness M-039, do you recognise the person in that photograph?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who is that person?

22 A. Kadri Jashari.

23 Q. Do you know, when this photograph was taken, was Kadri Jashari

24 alive or dead?

25 A. Dead.

Page 1129

1 Q. Do you recognise your handwriting at the bottom of the photograph?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you read what you wrote, please?

4 A. "This photograph depicts the same position of Kadri Jashari as the

5 day when he was killed."

6 MR. SAXON: And if we could briefly show the version that has the

7 English translation of that comment. Maybe we can just scroll down in

8 this photograph. There we see it there. Thank you very much.

9 If we could now turn to the last photograph, which is N000-7828.

10 Q. While we're waiting: Witness M-039, when you refer to the term

11 "the day he was killed," can we agree we're talking about the 12th of

12 August, 2001?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. That was the date when these gentlemen died; is that what you're

15 saying?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. SAXON: If we can enlarge this photograph a bit, please.

18 Actually, we need to see the next photograph, N000-7828. Thank you.

19 Q. Do you recognise the person who we see in this photograph, M-039?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who is this person?

22 A. Xhelal Bajrami.

23 Q. When this photograph was taken, was Xhelal Bajrami dead or alive;

24 do you know?

25 A. Dead.

Page 1130

1 Q. Is that your handwriting at the bottom of the photograph?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Can you read what you wrote, please?

4 A. "This photograph shows the position -- the same position of Xhelal

5 Bajrami as the day when he was killed."

6 MR. SAXON: And if we could briefly just see the version that has

7 the English translation, please. So, Your Honours, I would then seek to

8 tender these photographs in the format that is most convenient.

9 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P203.

11 MR. SAXON: And I have no further questions at this time, Your

12 Honour.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Given the time and the difficulty for (redacted)

14 I think this would be a convenient time to conclude for the day.

15 MR. SAXON: I believe we're in public session, Your Honour. I

16 believe the name of the witness was just --

17 JUDGE PARKER: It was.

18 Sir, we must finish in a few minutes' time. The questioning by

19 the Prosecutor has finished. Other counsel will want to ask you some

20 questions, but there won't be time enough for that today. I'm sorry about

21 that. It means that you will need to return on Monday to complete your

22 evidence.

23 So we will adjourn now, and we'll resume at 9.00 on Monday

24 morning.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1:40 PM,

Page 1131

1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 21st day of May,

2 2007, at 9.00 a.m.