1 Tuesday, 22 May 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.
7 May I remind you, sir, of the affirmation which still applies as
8 you give your evidence.
9 WITNESS: WITNESS M-088 [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
13 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic [Continued]:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. M-088. If you remember, we
15 spoke yesterday about the fact that on the 10th of August, 2001, you were
16 with your truck at the border crossing of the Stenkovac. Is that so?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And as you explained it yesterday, this border crossing is not
19 far away from the border crossing of Blace. Is that so?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And that border crossing is more or less seven to eight
22 kilometres away from Skopje; is that correct?
23 A. I don't know how many kilometres it's away from Skopje.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask, Your Honours, to
1 move into a private session now.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
3 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You testified that you were informed by telephone about the mine
5 incident in Ljubotenski Bacila; is that correct?
6 A. I was informed, I learned it from my cousin that there was a
7 problem in Ljuboten, but I didn't know exactly what the problem was.
8 Q. You decided to return to the village immediately; is that
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You left the truck at the border crossing, and together with your
12 (redacted), you went back to the village. Is that so?
13 A. Yes. First I went to Skopje and then back to the village.
14 Q. And from the border crossing of Stenkovac, you were not able to
15 see anything happening above your village on -- in the Basineci area?
16 A. No, I couldn't.
17 Q. You were not able to see that because of the distance or because
18 you were really not able to observe that area from Stenkovci; is that
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. As you just said, first you went to Skopje, you took a taxi, and
22 together with your relative you came to Skopje; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. If someone were to claim that you arrived to Skopje with a
25 private vehicle, that statement would not be correct; is that true?
1 A. Can you repeat the question, please? I wasn't clear about it.
2 Q. If someone were to claim that you did not came by taxi but with a
3 private vehicle, then the person claiming that would not be speaking the
4 truth; is that correct?
5 A. From the border, from Blace to Skopje, there are private cars,
7 Q. But those private cars did not belong neither to you nor to your
8 relative; is that correct?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. Thank you. As a truck driver, you never had any problems with
11 the police before; is that correct?
12 A. I didn't have any problems with the police in the city, but I did
13 have a problem with the police at the check-point at the exit of
15 Q. In the same company, you went from Skopje to the bus-stop in
16 Radisani; is that correct?
17 A. [No interpretation].
18 Q. You did not continue going by bus, but you decided to go to the
19 village on foot through the fields?
20 A. I don't remember. Up to the bus station of Radishan, I don't
21 remember how I went there. But from there, we walked back to Ljuboten
22 through the fields.
23 Q. You used the shortcut through the fields so to escape meeting the
24 police or to avoid meeting other persons that might be on that path; is
25 that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. But usually you did not go to the village through the fields?
3 A. No, I [Realtime transcript read in error "don't know"] didn't.
4 Q. Once you arrived in Ljuboten, together with the person that you
5 came with --
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. In line 7, I think
7 the answer have been entered incorrectly, because I asked the witness
8 whether he usually used the road through the villages. He said, No, I
9 didn't, and then here it is written, No, I don't know. Maybe I should
10 repeat the question.
11 Q. Is it correct that usually you didn't go to the village through
12 the fields?
13 A. Usually I took the road. It was only that day that I walked
14 through the fields.
15 Q. Thank you. That's what I -- what I understood you.
16 So once you arrived in the village, together with the person that
17 you arrived with, you went to the premises of the crisis committee; is
18 that correct?
19 A. No. First I went home, and then later I went to the Crisis
21 Q. In the premises of the Crisis Staff, there were also other
22 persons from Ljuboten to come to an agreement what to do and how to
23 organise the village; is that correct?
24 A. That is correct that there were other villagers, but they were
25 discussing how to pull out of the village, the civilians and their
1 families, what to do with the families, with their own families.
2 Q. Is it true that in addition to you and the person that you
3 arrived with in -- to the village, that Afet Zendeli was also in the
4 meeting together with Hisni Murseli, Fatmir Kamberi, Kenan Salievski, the
5 brother of Fatmir Kamberi, Rami Jusufi, Baki Halimi, Adem Murseli, and
6 also other persons from the village?
7 A. I don't remember who was there.
8 Q. But you surely remember that there was a large -- a large number
9 of people present at the meeting?
10 A. I remember that there were many people there, but at this moment
11 I don't recall who actually was there.
12 Q. Okay. Is that correct that various opinions were presented at
13 the meeting? Some thought that that should give resistance if someone
14 would enter the village, while the others thought that they should leave
15 the village. Is that correct?
16 A. I don't know. I didn't hear many things because I stayed there
17 for a short while, and I went back to the family. I can't tell you what
18 they talked about.
19 Q. During the meeting there were discussions about the mine
20 incident, and you learned that several members of the army have been
21 killed and that two of the persons killed are from the neighbouring
22 village of Ljubanci; is that correct?
23 A. No, I didn't hear anything about that. I didn't hear anything
24 about people being killed or something like that.
25 Q. If I may suggest, or ask you to recall, that during the meeting,
1 there were discussions that several armed persons have entered the
2 village on that day, among whom was Sheravin [as interpreted] Bajrami.
3 Is that information that you got?
4 A. No, this is not true. I didn't hear anything about that and
5 there wasn't any armed person in Ljuboten. There were only innocent
7 Q. Quite a while before this event, the Crisis Staff of the village
8 organised some guards at the entrance of the village so they would be
9 able to control who is entering the village; is that correct?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You knew that there is a real threat that the security forces
12 might search the village, because at that time a significant number of
13 young people from the village was actively participating in the NLA; is
14 that correct?
15 A. I don't know. I was simply a driver, and I was working very
16 hard. I stayed at home only one day every week, so I can't say that
17 there were a large number of armed people in the NLA.
18 Q. If I were to say that at that time, the members of NLA from the
19 village were among the others Rasim Murati, Faik Murati,
20 Shefajet Bajrami, Besim Murtezani, Jetulla Arifi, Bekri Ajdini,
21 Orhan Bajrami, Shefket Murati -- Shefket Murati, correction,
22 Refedin Selimi, and Feriz Selimi, you could confirm this as being true.
23 Is that correct?
24 A. I may say for some but not for everyone, because I don't know.
25 Q. As the -- as my learned colleague the Prosecutor asked you, you
1 have given statements to the investigator of the OTP in the past, and
2 then you spoke about everything that was known to you; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask now that the witness
5 is shown his statement, which is 65 ter number 1D84, page 1D1146.12; and
6 the Albanian version, page 1D1160.12. I think the document got the
7 number P206 yesterday, if I remember well.
8 Q. I will ask ...
9 I will ask you to have a look at .12 of your statement. In the
10 middle, you say:
11 "I think that around 20 persons from Ljuboten belonged to the
12 NLA. Being asked if I know the persons Riza Jonuzi, Rasim Murati,
13 Faik Murati, Shefajet Bajrami, Besim Murtezani, Jetulla Arifi, Bekri
14 Ajdini, Orhan Bajrami, Shefket Murati, Refedin Selimi, Feriz Selimi, Suat
15 Saliu, Rafiz Bajrami, I confirm that I know these persons. Most of them
16 belong to the NLA ..." I can't say who they were but, "for example,
17 Saud Saliu and Riza Jonuzi are police officers."
18 Is that what you said at that time?
19 A. Yes, I said so, but I also said that I can't confirm that every
20 one of them was NLA member, and this is how it's written here.
21 Q. Thank you for your explanation. Tell me, is it true that because
22 of the situation which was the cause of the meeting of the Crisis Staff
23 and because of the fear that the village might be searched, already on
24 August 10, around 40 to 50 families fled the village and went towards
1 A. No.
2 Q. What does "no" mean? That the families did not go to Skopje; or
3 that you don't know? What were you trying to answer?
4 A. I wanted to say that I don't know.
5 Q. Thank you. Is it true if I were to say that an agreement was
6 reached at the meeting to organise checkpoints out of whom one would be
7 located next to the house of Qani Jashari?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters comment: We didn't hear the name
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Okay, it's well written.
12 Tell me, are you aware that one of the checkpoints was supposed
13 to be next to the -- Qani Jashari's house?
14 A. No, I don't know that. I didn't hear anything. I told you
15 earlier that I stayed there only for a brief time, and I returned to my
16 family. So I have no information about what they talked.
17 Q. And on Sunday, 12th of August, could you confirm that from that
18 point, from the area of Qani Jashari's house, there was shooting towards
19 the positions of the army and the police?
20 A. No, no. There wasn't any firing.
21 Q. Qani Jashari's house in Ljuboten is located in such a -- such an
22 area that both the house and the tobacco field, as well as the field
23 towards the woods, could be well observed from the positions of the
24 Macedonian Army that were located directly above the village. Is that
1 A. No, I can't say that, because I was never in that house, and as I
2 told you, I stayed only for some five minutes, and I can't say whether
3 you can see something from that place.
4 Q. My question was not what could be observed from the place of
5 Qani Jashari's house, but, rather, once goes up the hill just beyond the
6 village at which army positions were, the positions of the army of the
7 Republic of Macedonia, because I presume in peacetime you had had an
8 opportunity to climb up there.
9 Therefore, my question is: Is it correct that from that
10 position, one can see the area around Qani Jashari's house as well as a
11 meadow nearby, through which one would move from his house towards the
12 nearby forested area and the mountains?
13 A. The house is in a depression, so you cannot see from there. But
14 from the place where they grow tobacco, I think you can see that place
15 from the mountain, Stena Mountain.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we move
17 briefly into private session, please?
18 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 1217-1220 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Witness M-088, is it correct that you did not see the person who
5 joined you being wounded, shot?
6 A. I'm sorry, I did not understand your question. Could you ask it
7 again, please?
8 Q. While running, you did not see how it came about that that person
9 was wounded; is that correct?
10 A. I only learned that he had been wounded when he came to the
11 woods. I saw that he had been wounded.
12 Q. You also did not see how and when Bajram -- or, rather,
13 Kadri Jashari and Xhelal Bajrami were hit; is that correct?
14 A. No, I didn't, because everybody else was behind me. I was the
15 first to run and reach the woods. I did not see them.
16 Q. You don't know and were not told from which exact position the
17 bullet that had struck the wounded person came from, and the same applies
18 to Xhelal Bajrami and Kadri Jashari?
19 A. The bullets were coming from the left, from Malistena, but also
20 from behind where the forces were stationed on the road in front of
21 Qani Jashari's house. I mean, the Macedonian police were stationed
22 there. So the bullets were coming from the left and from behind.
23 Q. Yes. But you don't know from which positions the bullets that
24 hit those men were fired from?
25 A. No, I don't know.
1 Q. When you stopped in the woods, you turned back towards the
2 village, and as you testified at that moment you saw that Qani Jashari's
3 house was ablaze; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When you were able to go to that house, you were probably able to
6 notice that there was a haystack immediately nearby?
7 A. I can't remember now.
8 Q. While you were in the house, neither the haystack nor the house
9 itself were on fire; is that correct?
10 A. Until the moment I was there, the house was not on fire; that's
12 Q. You also did not see who or how set the house on fire?
13 A. Yes, that's correct. Because I only saw the fire when I arrived
14 at the woods. I could see the roof on fire.
15 Q. You also testified that after those events, you took active
16 participation with the NLA. You became a member of the 314th Brigade of
17 the NLA; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. After these events, you never reported any of it to the police,
20 and you have never given any statements to the Macedonian authorities; is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes, that's correct. I did not give any statement.
23 Q. You provided your statements to investigators of the
24 International Tribunal, and you believed it to be sufficient to help in
25 discovering potential perpetrators; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You have no knowledge of anyone else from the village having gone
3 to the police, or to the prosecutor's office, or to any of the courts in
4 order to report any events or report on any persons about whom you
5 testified today; is that correct?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. I'll try and put it another way. Do you know whether anyone
8 submitted a claim or a report of such nature?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. I apologise.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] A correction for the transcript
12 because I misspoke when I referred to the brigade number. It is stated
13 that it was 314th, which is indeed what I said. Instead it should have
14 been the 114th Brigade.
15 Q. You also -- you also know that in April 2002, when there was an
16 exhumation of the deceased, no uniformed police presence was allowed at
17 the site of the exhumation; the Macedonian police, that is. Are you
18 familiar with that?
19 A. No, I'm not. I -- I'm not aware whether the police was there or
20 not. I don't know.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, this concludes my
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Ms. Residovic.
25 Mr. Apostolski.
1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, my colleague
2 Jasmina Zivkovic will be cross-examining the witness.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
4 Ms. Zivkovic.
5 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
6 Cross-examination by Ms. Zivkovic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Witness M-088, good afternoon to you, too. My
8 name is Jasmina Zivkovic and together with my learned friend
9 Antonio Apostolski, I appear on behalf of Mr. Johan Tarculovski.
10 Witness M-088, we heard from my learned friend Ms. Residovic some
11 basic information about you; for example, where and when you were born
12 and what is your level of education. Nowadays, you live together with
13 your family; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You also told us that during the Ljuboten events, you were
16 employed as a driver. Can you tell us what is your current occupation?
17 A. Yes. Now I work as a farmer and I also sell my produce. So I
18 also trade a little bit.
19 Q. Thank you. In August 2001, during the Ljuboten events, you still
20 resided with your parents in the same house, and you had no family of
21 your own; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, that's correct. I was living with my family.
23 Q. Today, you confirmed to my learned friend that on Friday, the
24 10th of August, you were in Stenkovac with Zemri Zendeli, and you left
25 your truck there, after which you took a taxi to Skopje. You claim that
1 throughout that period, you were with Zemri Zendeli. Is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You also stated that from Radishan to Ljuboten, you went on foot
4 through the fields. Can you tell us whether there was any particular
5 reason for you to go on foot?
6 A. The reason was because I didn't want to go through the police
7 checkpoint, which is at the exit of Ljuboten village on the road towards
8 Skopje. I didn't want to be ill-treated, and that's why I didn't follow
9 the main road that goes to Skopje.
10 Q. Does it mean that you were afraid of the police?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. Can you tell us why?
13 A. I was afraid because I had suffered ill-treatment at this
14 checkpoint before. For example, when I went to the city once, I was
15 ill-treated there. They took my identity card and kept me for half an
16 hour there without giving me any reason why they were detaining me for
17 that time. That's why I didn't want to go through the check-point.
18 Q. Was that during the events when there were quite a -- quite a
19 number of terrorist actions going on in the neighbouring villages?
20 A. This happened after the establishment of the police check-points.
21 I don't recall when it was, one or two months before what happened. And
22 this happened when I went to work.
23 Q. Thank you. Once you arrived in Ljuboten around noon, you went to
24 your house where you stayed with your family in the basement until the
25 Saturday; is that correct?
1 A. No, that is not correct.
2 Q. Could you tell us what is correct?
3 A. It is correct that -- the truth is that I went home to my family,
4 and then I went to the Crisis Staff for a while.
5 Q. Thank you. On Saturday, you were in the house for the entire
6 day; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And because of that, you were not able to see what was going on
9 in the village; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. Thank you. You told us that on Sunday, August 12th, the shelling
12 started at around 8.00 in the morning and that around 10.00, together
13 with Zemri Zendeli, you went to Afet Zendeli's house. Could you tell us
14 how long did you stay in that house?
15 A. I may say that I stayed there for a short period of time. I
16 can't be precise.
17 Q. You also said today that -- to my learned colleague
18 Ms. Residovic, that at that moment there were 30 people in that house; is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. After that, you, together with Zemri Zendeli, went to
22 Zendel Zendeli's house, since in Afet Zendeli's house you did not feel
23 very safe anymore; is that correct?
24 A. We went in the direction of Zendel Zendeli's house to leave for
25 the forest because this is where his house is.
1 Q. I don't know whether you understood what I said. My question
2 was: Why did you leave Zendel Zendeli's house? Is that because you
3 didn't feel safe there anymore?
4 A. I left Afet Zendeli's house.
5 Q. Sir, I apologise, that's my mistake; we're talking about
6 Afet Zendeli's house?
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. Does it mean that the remaining 28 people felt -- continued to
9 feel safe in that house?
10 A. No, they didn't feel safe either.
11 Q. Once you entered Qani Jashari's house, you immediately went to
12 the room at the back, and you only stayed in the house for five minutes,
13 and during that five minutes you were all together; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. From that room, which is on the back side of the house, you were
16 not able to see what was going on in front of the house; is that correct?
17 A. That is correct, I couldn't see.
18 Q. Once you jumped through the window, you said you hided in the
19 tobacco field, which was next to the house, and it was there when you
20 first find -- when you saw the Hermelin for the first time in front of
21 the house; is it correct?
22 A. It is correct, but Hermelin was on the road that leads to Rastak.
23 Q. In your statements, you've said that you saw only two uniformed
24 police officers next to the Hermelin at that time; is that correct?
25 A. It is correct. I saw only two or three policemen close to the
2 Q. Mr. M-088, since you started running right after you saw the
3 police officers, you weren't able to see what uniforms they wore and what
4 kind of weapons they had on them; is that correct?
5 A. After I started running, I didn't look back, but from the tobacco
6 field I could see those two, three policemen that I mentioned, because
7 there was a large noise coming from the direction, meaning there was a
8 greater number of policemen, but I saw only two or three policemen in
9 uniforms in black uniforms and with masks, black masks, who had this
10 Hermelin nearby.
11 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask if we could move into
12 a private session briefly.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
14 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
22 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. M-088, if I understood you well, you said that from the
24 tobacco field you went towards the woods, Guri i Bardhe. First you were
25 crawling for -- for 500 metres until you reached the first bush. And
1 that took you only a few minutes. Do you remember saying that?
2 A. Yes, I remember. I said that first I ran for a while, then I
3 crawled up to the place.
4 Q. At one point you hid into the bushes; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask to have the witness
7 shown photograph 65 ter 199.10.
8 Q. Mr. M-088, do you see the photograph in front of you?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Could you mark on this photograph --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Could you see the
12 bushes that you hid in on this photograph?
13 A. Yes, I see them. But can you please repeat the question once
14 more? Maybe I didn't get it well.
15 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. You got it well, that's what I asked you, whether you see the
17 bushes that you temporarily took shelter in.
18 A. No, I don't see the bushes where I hid.
19 Q. So could you tell us where these bushes are?
20 A. Yes. They are in this direction, in the direction of the forest.
21 You can't see them in this picture.
22 Q. Well, could you tell us how high this bush was?
23 A. They were small bushes in an open field. I wouldn't say they
24 were high or tall like a forest is. Simply small bushes.
25 Q. Thank you. Mr. M-088, you said you didn't see what was going on
1 with the other persons -- persons behind you. You also stated that you
2 only heard fires -- shots being fired behind you. Is that correct?
3 A. That is correct.
4 Q. Does it mean that it might be possible that Kadri Jashari,
5 Bajram Jashari, and Xhelal Bajrami could have fired at the Macedonian
6 security forces without you knowing that, since you didn't see it?
7 A. No, no. This is not true. It cannot be true, because they too
8 had fled the house up to the tobacco field. Until that moment, they
9 didn't have any weapons on them, so you might ask with what would they be
10 firing, if they did fire.
11 Q. Thank you. You said that you left Zemri Zendeli with a -- with a
12 shepherd in the forest and you continued to the Matejce monastery; is
13 that correct?
14 A. That is correct. I left Zemri on the 14th of August, 2001 in --
15 when I arrived Kumanov, I didn't leave Zemri in the mountain near
16 Ljuboten but in Kumanov.
17 Q. You were in the Matejce monastery after you've ran into the
18 forest; is that correct?
19 A. Yes. After I went to the forest, then I went to Matejce
20 monastery to ask for assistance (redacted).
21 Q. Thanks. Did you become a NLA member in Matejce?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Mr. M-088, on the occasion when you enrolled into the NLA, did
24 you give an oath?
25 A. No. Because there was an agreement already signed at that time.
1 I simply put on a uniform but didn't do anything, wasn't given any task.
2 Q. So you joined the NLA after the framework agreement was signed;
3 is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. Could you tell us, why did you join?
6 A. Because I wanted to take (redacted) up to that zone or to some
7 other place because he was wounded and I had to go there.
8 Q. You surely knew what the purposes or the goals of the NLA were?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Is it correct that the NLA -- the NLA was fighting -- was
11 fighting for territory in the Republic of Macedonia?
12 A. No, I don't know about that.
13 Q. Do you know maybe whether the end goal of the NLA was to take
14 apart the territories that were one, to secede them and join them to
15 Kosovo and Albania, in order to create greater Albania?
16 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, I think that the
17 transcript misses the words "secede from the Republic of Macedonia."
18 Q. Did you understand my question?
19 A. I understood your question, but I have no answer to give you
20 because this is a matter I have no information about. You might ask some
21 person who is more learned than I or who has been dealing with such
22 issues. I am not in a position to give you an answer.
23 Q. That means that you surely do not know why the -- what the NLA
24 was fighting for; is that what you're trying to say?
25 A. The NLA was fighting for the rights pertaining to a citizen or a
1 resident or inhabitant of that state. They simply fought for their
3 Q. Do you mean the rights of the Albanians when you say so?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Mr. M-088, were you educated in your native Albanian language?
6 A. No, no. I learned Albanian until I finished the primary, the 8th
7 year school. Then for three other years, I learned in Macedonian.
8 Q. So you finished elementary education in your native language?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you able to vote freely?
11 A. Yes. But I think this is an irrelevant question.
12 Q. Did you have members of parliament that were of Albanian
13 ethnicity who were elected in free elections in the parliament in
14 2002, in Macedonia -- I apologise, in 2001?
15 A. There were Albanians who were elected.
16 Q. Did you have ministers in the government that were of Albanian
18 A. I don't remember for the moment. I don't know.
19 Q. Do you remember maybe that the minister of justice at the time
20 was an Albanian?
21 A. No, I don't remember.
22 Q. Mr. M-088, we will go back a little bit to the questions related
23 to the events?
24 Do you remember, since you were all the time together with
25 Zemri Zendeli, whether -- or maybe you were in contact with his brother
1 Islam during the Ljuboten event?
2 A. No, I don't know this. I don't know this.
3 Q. Does it mean you weren't in contact with him at all?
4 A. Do you mean (redacted)?
5 Q. I'm referring to either you or Zemri Zendeli, were any of you --
6 any -- were there any of you were in contact with him?
7 A. This is not true. We didn't have any contacts.
8 Q. So that might mean that he might have been with the NLA at that
9 time without you knowing it, since you had no contacts with him?
10 A. He lived in Skopje and I was doing my job, so I had no
11 information as to his whereabouts at that time.
12 Q. Thank you. Is it true that Suad Saliu and Riza Jonuzi were NLA
14 A. I don't know. I don't remember for the moment, but Idriz Jonuzi
15 I don't think this is the right name.
16 Q. Riza Jonuzi?
17 A. I cannot say that he was. I don't remember for the moment
18 whether he was or not.
19 Q. Is it true that they were police officers during the Ljuboten
20 events, between 10 and 12 August, 2001?
21 A. No. When I gave the statement, I thought that they were
23 Q. So you remember saying that in your statement, that they were
25 A. Yes, I remember. But this is what I thought for that moment,
1 because after 2001 they were policemen.
2 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, given the time maybe
3 it will be good to go for a break.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. Do you want to tender the photograph that
5 you had the witness mark?
6 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] No, it's not necessary because he
7 didn't mark the bushes, so it is not necessary, thank you.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Then we will be losing that image.
9 We will adjourn now and resume at 20 past 4.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Zivkovic.
13 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
14 Q. Witness M-088, concerning some people whose names were put forth
15 by my learned friend Ms. Residovic, you confirmed for them that they were
16 NLA members. However, you said that you cannot be certain for all of
17 them; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. Can you tell us, concerning some of those people for whom you've
20 confirmed they were members of the NLA, did you see any of them after
21 having reached the Matejce monastery where the NLA was located?
22 A. Yes. When I arrived there, I felt very tired, and maybe I saw
23 some of them, but I felt very weak and tired.
24 Q. Did you speak to any of them?
25 A. No, I don't remember to have spoken to any one of them.
1 Q. Is it correct that those people opened fire at members of the
2 Macedonian forces from the direction of Pop Cesme?
3 A. No, I don't know that.
4 Q. Thank you. You said that Islam Zendeli, that you didn't see him
5 at Ljuboten. Did you see him perhaps at the Matejce monastery?
6 A. No, I didn't.
7 Q. Zemri Zendeli was in a hospital. First, he went to Lipkovo and
8 then in Nikustak; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, they sent him to a place, I think to Lipkov, but as to where
10 he was, this I don't know.
11 Q. It means that during the month of him being hospitalised, you
12 didn't pay him a visit?
13 A. No, I don't remember. I was about two weeks, I think, or ten
14 days a member of NLA. Then I left Matejce in the direction of Kosova.
15 Q. Thank you. Witness M-088, does the name of Xhezair Shaqiri mean
16 anything to you?
17 A. No, no.
18 Q. While you were at the Matejce monastery, did you on that occasion
19 see any NLA wounded soldiers?
20 A. No, I didn't.
21 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Baki Halimi?
22 A. No, I don't. No. That person, Baki Halimi, is a teacher from
23 Ljuboten village, and I know him simply as a teacher who used to be my
24 teacher up to the 8th grade. He taught me history and geography.
25 Q. Does it mean that you don't know that he also participated in the
1 fights with the Macedonian forces at Ljuboten?
2 A. No, he didn't take part in any fight against the Macedonian
3 forces. No one from Ljuboten did.
4 Q. Thank you. At Matejce, there is a monastery several centuries
5 old. Are you familiar with that?
6 A. I -- I'm not.
7 Q. You don't know how old the monastery is, or are you not familiar
8 with the fact that there is a monastery there?
9 A. I know that there is a monastery there, but how old that
10 monastery is, this I don't know.
11 Q. Thank you for that clarification. Is it a Christian monastery?
12 A. I don't know, because I never saw it before.
13 Q. During your stay in Matejce, were you able to notice that the
14 entire monastery was demolished?
15 A. No, I cannot say that it was demolished. I told you that I
16 stayed there only for a while, and I didn't see that it was demolished.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MS. ZIVKOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
19 questions for this witness. Thank you.
20 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, indeed.
21 Ms. Regue, is there any re-examination?
22 MS. REGUE: Yes, Your Honours, just a couple of questions.
23 Re-examination by Ms. Regue:
24 Q. Witness, my learned colleague Ms. Residovic in page 11, line 19,
25 asked you whether you became a member of the 114th Brigade of the NLA and
1 you answered that was correct. Ms. Zivkovic, in page 30, line 24, you
2 answer actually to her question that you were a member of the NLA in
3 Matejce for ten days, two weeks, and then you went to Kosovo. During
4 that time, did you participate in any sort of training?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you participate in any sort of military operation?
7 A. No.
8 Q. How long did you stay in Kosovo?
9 A. About two months.
10 Q. Where did you go afterwards?
11 A. After Kosova, I returned home to my family.
12 Q. Ms. Residovic also asked you in page 16, line 23, whether you had
13 ever given any statement to the Macedonian authorities, and you said that
14 you didn't. Why you didn't give any statement to Macedonian authorities?
15 A. I didn't for reasons of personal safety.
16 Q. Could you please elaborate a bit about this point, "personal
18 A. By this, I want to say that I was afraid of the Macedonian
19 police. I didn't feel secure in their presence.
20 Q. Were you ever contacted by any Macedonian authority who inquire
21 you about the events in Ljuboten, the weekend of 10 to 12th August, 2001?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Thanks.
24 MS. REGUE: Could I please display in e-court system P206,
25 please? It's the witness's statement. And if we could show paragraph
1 25? Thanks.
2 Q. My learned colleague Ms. Zivkovic read to you a line from the
3 paragraph 25, which is:
4 "I can't even tell whether the uniforms were camouflage."
5 But she means the next line, actually, which is:
6 "To me, it was a sort of police uniform, dark in colour."
7 Do you agree with the complete sentence?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. Thanks.
10 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, I have no further questions.
11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.
12 Questioned by the Court:
13 JUDGE PARKER: Could you clarify one matter for the Chamber?
14 After you had been at the position of the monastery for some ten
15 days or two weeks, you went to Kosovo. I think you indicated you were
16 there for about two months. What did you do there?
17 A. I stayed there as a guest, as someone who wanted to spend some
18 time. I stayed there until I felt stronger and then I returned home.
19 JUDGE PARKER: Of whom were you a guest?
20 A. During the 2001 conflict, I had some refugees from Viti in Kosova
21 staying with my family. So when I went to Kosova, I stayed with them.
22 JUDGE PARKER: You stayed all the time with a family that you
23 knew; is that what you're saying?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE PARKER: When you left the monastery, did you obtain
1 permission from anybody to leave, to go to Kosovo?
2 A. All the soldiers who were at the monastery had permission. There
3 was a commander whose pseudonym was Paloshi, and then we left for Kosova.
4 JUDGE PARKER: Did everybody leave for Kosovo?
5 A. I may say that all, but I can't be very sure.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Did the commander leave with you?
7 A. No.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Did you stay with any NLA people when you were in
10 A. No. I was the only one staying with that family.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE PARKER: It's unlikely, but is there anything arising from
13 that that either Defence feels they need to pursue? I see no being
14 nodded by both counsel.
15 Ms. Regue? Thank you.
16 You will be pleased to know that that concludes your questioning.
17 The Chamber thanks you for your attendance here in the The Hague and for
18 the assistance that you have been able to give, and you are now able to
19 return to your family, and we thank you indeed.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE PARKER: This may be a convenient time to deal with what I
23 understand is a matter or one or two matters that you wish to raise,
24 Mr. Saxon.
25 MR. SAXON: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Since the
1 beginning of our court session today, the number of matters has risen
2 from two to three. I will try to deal with them as expeditiously as I
4 First of all, there is a witness who we would expect to begin
5 testifying at some point tomorrow.
6 May we go into private session, please?
7 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 1242-1245 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Now, I'm referring to the Witness M-21
24 that you contemplate calling Friday. The Chamber remains surprised that
25 you continued to anticipate two hours for the witness. I think I
1 suggested the other day it is more probably two days. And unless you
2 know something remarkable that we do not, I find it difficult to think
3 that that witness can be concluded in the space of just two hours.
4 But more to the point concerning him is a motion which I received
5 today to actually admit his Rule 92 ter statement with addendum. Could
6 the Chamber make clear that we are not and have not admitted any
7 statements under Rule 92 bis or 92 ter until the witness is here in
8 Court. In the case of Rule 92 bis, and there remains some witnesses who
9 as are within the realm of 92 bis, there must then be compliance with the
10 form required by the rule of the statement before it is admitted, and the
11 final decision on its relevance will depend on the state of the evidence
12 at that point.
13 With respect to 92 ter, the statement simply cannot be admitted
14 until the witness here on oath accepts and verifies the statement as the
15 evidence the witness would give. So that we can't admit it at this
16 point, and certainly the addendum is something which will of necessity be
17 referred to by the witness as we anticipate it, because it is expected
18 that the witness will say with the corrections, additions or deletions
19 set out in the addendum, the statement is the evidence that I would give.
20 So that if that is what comes to transpire, the time then will be
21 for the Chamber to admit the statement, subject, of course, to any
22 objection that might be raised. For that reason, can we say that the
23 Chamber will certainly not be dealing with the written motion that has
24 been received and neither Defence needs to prepare any response to it.
25 If there is any objection, it will be dealt with orally when the witness
1 is here, not that we anticipate that there would be.
2 Is that clear enough, Mr. Saxon?
3 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, that is very clear and if the
4 Prosecution has created any confusion, then it is my fault and I
5 apologise for that. I would like, with your leave, to explain why the
6 Prosecution has filed what it has.
7 We have filed this statement, the statement of M-21, I believe,
8 pursuant to the order/decision of the Trial Chamber, that after such
9 consolidated statements are created pursuant to Rule 92 ter, they must be
10 disclosed to the Defence, and I believe the term used by the Trial
11 Chamber in their decision was "submit." And perhaps that's where I made
12 an error by titling this submission as motion. And, if so, we did not
13 mean to suggest in any way that the Chamber would deal with this before
14 the witness was present in the courtroom. And we will, if necessary, in
15 the future refrain from referring to such submissions as motions.
16 Your Honour, with respect to the time that Witness M-021 may
17 take, again I regret if I misunderstood your comments from last week. I
18 understood your comments from last week to mean that the Prosecution had
19 underestimated the time that this witness would -- would take during his
20 testimony here. And the Prosecution does not disagree with Your Honour's
21 comment. It is my understanding that if we get to Witness M-21 beginning
22 on Friday, the witness's evidence would begin, and we would advance to a
23 particular position that we needed to until a quarter to 2.00, and then
24 that witness would probably have to return at a later date to finish the
25 witness's testimony. I did not mean to suggest that we would finish with
1 the witness on Friday.
2 JUDGE PARKER: Well, thank you for that. But the Chamber would
3 encourage you in the course of the Prosecution case, as it will other
4 counsel if there are Defence cases to be pursued, to make realistic
5 assessments of the length of time that will be needed for a witness, and
6 I think that is a starkly unrealistic assessment.
7 MR. SAXON: Very well, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you for that then.
9 Is it practical now to call your next witness?
10 MR. SAXON: Yes, Your Honour. And Ms. Motoike will lead the next
11 witness, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, good afternoon. At this time, the
15 Prosecution would call Witness M-092. Thank you.
16 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the
19 sheet of paper handed to you now.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 WITNESS: WITNESS M-092
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE PARKER: I think Ms. Motoike has some questions for you
2 now. She is over here.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you. And could I please have the usher's
5 assistance in providing the witness with a document that bears ERN number
6 04247862 -- 04247862.
7 Examination by Ms. Motoike:
8 Q. Witness, can you please take a look at this piece of paper that's
9 in front of you and tell us - without reading it aloud - whether the
10 information contained on that piece of paper is true and correct?
11 A. Yes, it's correct. Yes, it's correct.
12 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, after my learned colleagues have had
13 a chance to see this, and there is no objection, I would ask to tender it
14 under seal, please.
15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received under seal.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P214, under seal, Your Honours.
17 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.
18 Q. Witness, you have been granted protective measures of face and
19 voice distortion in this case, and therefore, your face and your voice
20 will be distorted to the public, and we will also be referring to you as
21 witness or Witness M-092. Do you understand this?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, may we move into private session,
25 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
1 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
14 MS. MOTOIKE:
15 Q. Witness, do you recall giving a statement to the Office of the
16 Prosecutor on 10 June 2004?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And do you recall, in August 2006, that this statement was
19 certified by an officer of this Tribunal?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And at that time, did you have an opportunity to read the
22 statement in your native language?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did you have an opportunity to make corrections and/or
25 additions to that statement in August of 2006?
1 A. Yes. Because of some technical mistakes that were found there.
2 Q. And were some of these corrections and/or additions handwritten
3 into your statement and also encompassed in an addenda -- addendum to
4 your statement at that time?
5 A. Some of them were written remarks. Yes, they were like this,
6 you're right.
7 Q. And were the contents of your statements, with the corrections
8 and the additions, at that time true and correct?
9 A. Yes, they were correct.
10 Q. On 10 May 2007, did you meet with myself and another colleague
11 here in The Hague?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And at that time, during that meeting, did you have an additional
14 correction as to the name of a doctor that was indicated in your
15 statement in paragraphs 23 and 24?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And do you recall what the correction was with respect to the
18 name of that doctor?
19 A. Ridvan Tahiraj and Ridvan Bajrami.
20 Q. And which is the correct name of the doctor that you refer to in
21 those paragraphs?
22 A. Ridvan Bajrami.
23 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, at this time I would seek to tender
24 the 92 bis statement, which bears ERN N002-7240 - N002-7256, under seal,
25 pursuant to 92 bis.
1 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P215, under seal, Your Honours.
3 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you. And at this time, with Your Honours'
4 permission, I would read a summary of this particular statement.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
6 MS. MOTOIKE: "The witness observed that approximately two and a
7 half months prior to the Ljuboten attack on 10 through 12 August 2001,
8 there over 20 Macedonian military and police check-points around the
9 village of Ljuboten. On 10 August 2001, Macedonian government forces
10 launched an attack against Ljuboten which continued intermittently
11 through August 12th.
12 "On 12 August 2001, the witness heard screaming from the
13 direction of the houses of Adem Ametovski and Zija Ameti. The witness
14 saw armed Macedonian forces and a Hermelin. After the shelling commenced
15 on 12 August 2001, the witness and others decided to leave the village.
16 The witness and others sought shelter in the house of Qani Jashari. The
17 witness saw no weapons or ammunition there and as the persons in this
18 house left the house they fled across the fields and were fired upon by
19 Macedonian forces. The witness was wounded in the leg and he also saw
20 that Kadri Jashari had been shot. The witness observed Kadri Jashari's
21 house burning after they fled the area that day.
22 "The witness became a NLA member after 12 August 2001. Other
23 Ljuboten villagers also belonged to the NLA, but they were all in
24 Nikustak from 10 through 12 August 2001.
25 "There was a NLA operation, according to the witness, in the
1 mountains above Ljuboten on the afternoon of the 12 August. The NLA did
2 not engage the Macedonian forces in Ljuboten and there were no NLA
3 fighters in the village from 10 through 12 August 2001."
4 If we could please pull up --
5 JUDGE PARKER: Before you do, the addendum sheet, are you
6 tendering that as well?
7 MS. MOTOIKE: Yes, Your Honours. It has the -- the addendum
8 sheet which, I believe, is bearing ERN N0027253 through N0027256, has
9 also been certified pursuant to 92 bis.
10 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received as part of the same exhibit as
11 the actual statement.
12 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, Ms. Motoike.
14 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you. Could we please pull up a photograph
15 bearing ERN N005-7603? It is also a photograph which appears on page 5
16 of the court binder.
17 Could we go -- further out, zoom out, please. Zoom out. Thank
19 Q. Witness, you mention shelling from an area called Malistena on
20 Friday, 10/8/2001, in paragraph 8 of your statement, and also in
21 paragraphs 12 and 19 of your statement, you also indicate that there's
22 shelling and shooting coming from this area called Malistena on
23 12/8/2001. Do you see the photograph in front of you?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. Could you please mark for us with the usher's assistance,
1 perhaps? Well, let me ask you this: Is the area called Malistena
2 depicted in this photograph?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Could you, please, mark for us the area which is referred to as
6 A. Yes, yes. Is it marked correctly?
7 Q. The red circle that you have marked on the photograph, is that
8 the location that you refer to as Malistena?
9 A. Yes, yes. Yeah. I call it Malistena.
10 Q. And is a location -- you refer to location called Pop Cesme in
11 paragraph 22 of your statement. Is that also -- is that area also
12 depicted in this photograph?
13 A. This is not depicted in that photograph.
14 Q. Could you describe for us where the location of Pop Cesme is, in
15 relation to Ljuboten?
16 A. From Rek [phoen] is on the opposite side. It's about six
17 kilometres or maybe seven kilometres far away from the river.
18 Q. When you say opposite side and you made a hand gesture, what do
19 you mean? Where in relation to Ljuboten is it located?
20 A. Yes. This is on the other side of Ljuboten, in the straight in
21 the same direction with the village.
22 Q. Perhaps if you could use south, east, west, could you tell us in
23 relation to Ljuboten, is it south of Ljuboten, west of Ljuboten?
24 A. It is more going to the east.
25 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honour, could we --
1 A. East, yes.
2 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, could we please tender this
4 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P216, Your Honours.
6 MS. MOTOIKE: Could we please show 65 ter 199.10, page 259?
7 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 199.10 has only one page.
8 MS. MOTOIKE: Please, that page, thank you.
9 Q. Witness, you describe being at the house of Qani Jashari in your
10 statement, and at some point you indicated that you left this house from
11 a window and ran into a field. Do you see the photo before you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And is that window depicted in the photograph?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. With the assistance of the usher, Witness, could you please mark
16 the window you ran from and perhaps label it with a number 1?
17 A. [Marks].
18 Q. Okay. And could you also, using the marker, mark the path that
19 you took after leaving through this window on that day?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you label that red line that you've made on the photograph
22 with a number 2, please?
23 You also mention --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You also mention in your statement that you were shot in the leg
1 while you were in the field. Could you mark the location where this
2 occurred, please, and label it with a number 3?
3 A. Yes. I can mark it, but it's a bit high up.
4 Q. Perhaps I should have asked you: Is it the location where you
5 were wounded in the leg depicted in this photograph?
6 A. Yes. It is very close, indeed, it's just a bit -- five metres
7 close, and Kadri Jashari was killed before me in that area.
8 Q. Could you mark for the -- with a -- could you mark then the area
9 where you say Kadri Jashari was killed?
10 A. Yes. It's a bit higher up because there were some plumb trees
11 there and the road was a bit higher up, and I have been walking through
12 that area, and the bullets were -- were going through over our shoulders,
13 and then that's -- that's the path we -- we went. And when I turned
14 towards Kadri, and then I was also wounded in my leg. And after this, I
15 was unable to approach him more closer, but I was running quickly because
16 I was trying to escape the bullets and the shots that were coming from
17 many directions from down, from the side, and it is also from the place
18 where I marked it in Malistena, because bullets were coming from
19 everywhere. If I need to mark number 3 here, I can mark it, where I was
20 wounded, for Kadri Jashari.
21 Q. Yes, could you, please?
22 A. Number 2 and number 3. But it looks like 23, in fact.
23 Q. It does. Perhaps you could put a circle around the 2?
24 A. Can you see it now?
25 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... a circle around the 2. So
1 that's the point that you've marked with 2, I believe we said, for the
2 record, marks the red line that you indicated as the path that you took?
3 A. The circle -- number 2 is inside the circle where I left. And
4 number 3 is where Kadri Jashari was killed and where I was wounded.
5 Q. You have also mentioned in your statement seeing a Hermelin that
6 day. Is the location that you saw that Hermelin in depicted in this
7 photograph as well?
8 A. The place is seen here, but -- yes, yes.
9 Q. Could you mark for us, please, with an X and an H the location of
10 where you saw that Hermelin that day?
11 A. Is it marked well? X and H?
12 Q. Perhaps, just for the record, the X marks the place where you saw
13 the Hermelin that day, for the record?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, could we tendered this, please?
16 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P217, Your Honours.
18 MS. MOTOIKE: Could we show 65 ter 146, which I believe is
19 page 2.
20 Your Honours, I would ask that this next document not be
21 published to the public, please. Thank you.
22 Q. Witness, do you see the document that's before you? I believe
23 it's displayed in both the English and Albanian languages.
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. If you could just take a look at the Albanian version of this
1 document. Do you see here on the top left corner, it says "Nikustak
2 military hospital." Is that correct?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And it also in bold letters in the middle says "medical discharge
5 note." It references a name right below that, and it references a date
6 of birth. Do you see that?
7 A. Yes, I do. It's correct. It's my name, my last name and my
9 Q. And it also says later on, after the date of birth, it says that
10 you were admitted to the hospital on 12 August 2001, and then it goes on,
11 and it says "treatment for surgical treatment of the wound," and then it
12 indicates that you were discharged on 17 September, 2001.
13 Do you see that language?
14 A. Yes, I do. But I can't read it in English. It's my name, my
15 birthday, resident of Ljuboten, was admitted to hospital 12 August 2001.
16 Then I don't understand. Then I see 17 September 2001.
17 Q. Witness, is the Albanian version before you on the screen?
18 A. Yes. The name that I read out, I don't know how accurate I was.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: I didn't read the name.
20 MS. MOTOIKE:
21 Q. Witness, if I could just --
22 A. The name of the doctor.
23 Q. Witness, if I could just interrupt you for a second because we're
24 in public session, and I just want to ask you, you said that the
25 information contained -- do you see the Albanian version? And I'm asking
1 about the Albanian version of the document, is that information contained
2 on that document correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you mentioned a doctor's name at the bottom. Do you see that
5 in the very bottom left?
6 A. Yes. Ridvan Bajrami. He's a doctor, a general practitioner in
7 the hospital I was taken to.
8 Q. And does this treatment here in the middle of the document that
9 you've read out to us, does that treatment describe your condition -- the
10 treatment that you received after you were wounded that day on the 12th
11 of August?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. What was the treatment that --
14 A. I went to Matish on Tuesday. The first treatment was given to me
15 in Lipkov.
16 Q. Witness, my question to you was: This document indicates that
17 you were treated -- there were surgical treatment of a wound. Is that --
18 is that an accurate description of what Dr. Bajrami did for you?
19 A. I am not a doctor, to know my diagnosis. I believe that the
20 doctor knows best, and I have also stated it in my statement that it
21 wasn't possible for me to know the characteristics of my injury. I know
22 it was in my leg up to the ankle.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. I'm not a doctor by profession.
25 Q. Witness. Witness, my -- I guess my next question is: Did you
1 receive this -- this paperwork from the doctor once you were released
2 from the hospital, Nikustak hospital?
3 A. Yes.
4 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, could we tender this, please, under
6 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received under seal.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P218, under seal, Your Honours.
8 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, I have no further questions. Thank
10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
11 It occurs to me this is a convenient time for the break which we
12 must have now, and we resume at 6.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.
15 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic has some questions now.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. M-092. My name is
19 Edina Residovic and together with my colleague, Guenael Mettraux, I
20 appear on behalf of Mr. Ljube Boskoski.
21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we briefly
22 move into private session? I have a couple of questions to be dealt with
23 that way.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 1262-1267 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. As you've stated already, you assisted in the transport of farm
18 produce to Kosovo. Is that correct?
19 A. Yes. At the same time, we farmed the land and also transported
20 the produce to Kosova.
21 Q. The best market for your produce that you transported was in Pec
22 and Pristina in Kosovo; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. From Strumnice to Pristina and Peja. There was a large
24 quantity of watermelons there.
25 Q. Frequently, at that time, you crossed the borders between
1 Macedonia and Kosovo, and you did so at the closest crossing point of
3 A. I went up to Stenkovac, but I didn't cross the border. My
4 brother was the driver. I just helped him up to there. Then I returned
5 home with a red Golf. My brother drove up to that point to transport the
6 produce, but I didn't go with him.
7 Q. Therefore, you are trying to say that you, yourself, did not go
8 to Kosovo?
9 A. No, I didn't. Because it was the duty of the driver to do that.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could we please show to the
11 witness a 65 ter document? The number is 1D88, page 1231, which had
12 recently been assigned an exhibit number, P215. I would kindly ask that
13 this document be not visible to the public, and this will also apply to
14 several other documents that I may show to the witness during my
16 Could we please show the Albanian version to the witness as well,
17 the same page? The number is 1D1251.
18 Q. In item 2, you state in the third sentence that you did not serve
19 your military term. And then precisely as you testified, you say there
20 that after you completed your education, you became the owner of a truck
21 and that you exported vegetables to Pec and Pristina in Kosovo. The
22 statement of yours, should it be viewed the way you've just explained to
23 us, this being that you would only go as far as the border and the rest
24 was not done by yourself?
25 A. Stankovc.
1 Q. In the statement we have you, which in English could be
2 understood in two different ways.
3 A. I had licence B, but I thought I didn't pay much attention to
4 such details, thinking that they are of no importance, but this is true.
5 My brother has a truck even now that we are no longer working together.
6 But at the time, we were living together and we were working together.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for counsel.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Since we are in open session,
9 could we please have the family relation description to be redacted from
10 line 17?
11 Q. We have clarified this --
12 JUDGE PARKER: I don't think there is any need, Ms. Residovic,
13 because there's no indication of the connection to any witness or any
14 such matter.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] You're right, Your Honours. I
16 think this could not be put in connection with his identity from this
17 context. Thank you.
18 Q. Sir, could you please tell me if it's true that you also on the
19 10th of August, 2001, helping transport the farming produce, that you
20 also were in Stenkovac at the border crossing?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. To make the things more precise, where is that border crossing?
23 Would it be true if I say that -- that is a border crossing which is
24 seven to eight kilometres far away from Skopje, and that it is close to
25 the place called Blace?
1 A. I think that it is on the border of Hani i Elezit. It is very
2 simple. I think that you know this already. Because Stenkovac was where
3 all the document -- documentation of the produce and the -- and the goods
4 is being kept, and then we went to the border point. We completed the
5 documents. My brother went and then I came back. I think it is very
7 Q. After your answer, I think we also are a bit clearer. While
8 going to the border crossing, you were able to note that not far away
9 from that area, the consequences of the terrorist attacks were visible
10 that were especially taking place towards the area of Tetovo?
11 A. No, this is not true. Because there were check-points near
12 Stenkovac, and it was not possible to do anything there. This is far
13 away from Tetovo. And this area was -- it is -- it is very certain,
14 whether you're a Macedonian or an Albanian, that this check-point is a
15 Macedonian check-point and all the goods that went to Stenkovac were able
16 to go through this check-point. But -- so this check-point was free.
17 When you're talking about documents or other things, they were checking
18 whether you had valid documents or about other things. I cannot tell you
19 any further.
20 Q. Maybe I was not clear in asking the question. I -- I was trying
21 to say whether on the way to Stenkovac, you were able to see visible
22 signs of terrorist attacks on that area?
23 A. No, this is not true.
24 Q. Your village, Ljuboten, about which several witnesses testified
25 before this Court, is on the hills of Skopska Crna Gore. Is that true?
1 A. Yes. Yes, Ljuboten is located there together with Ljubance.
2 Q. Given the geographic position of that area, it is of a special
3 strategic importance for the city of Skopje; is that correct?
4 A. I don't know that, whether it is of a special strategic
5 importance or not.
6 Q. But although you don't know that, you answered my learned
7 colleague the Prosecutor that you know that two or two and a half months
8 before the August events, that the Army of the Republic of Macedonia
9 was -- had deployed its forces around Ljuboten, and as you say in your
10 statement, in your assessment, there were around 20 various check-points,
11 whether army check-points or mixed ones?
12 A. When I talked before, when I said that I don't know whether this
13 was of a strategic importance, I thought probably somebody or the police,
14 maybe they were aware of it, but I can talk only about the fact that the
15 forces were deployed around Ljuboten, and it has been like this. This is
16 the truth. The forces were deployed. I think they set up police
17 check-points, and they knew -- they knew why they were doing this. But
18 I'm not aware why did they go deep into Ljuboten two and a half months
19 before that.
20 Q. I completely agree with you, sir, that you're not a military
21 expert. But as a citizen of the village of Ljuboten, you were able to
22 confirm that you could see the entire Skopje valley from the -- most of
23 the Ljuboten, and when the weather is sunny, you can clearly see the city
24 of Skopje below your feet. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, Skopje is seen from that point.
1 Q. Also, in front of the new newly built mosque, Skopje could be
2 seen in a plate, as we could see that?
3 A. You can see Skopje from the mosque and from the church. It is
4 very clear, especially from the mosque you can see it better. From the
5 church, you can see it better. But it is also seen from my house as
7 Q. Thank you. Maybe this personal knowledge of yours is quite
8 important in order to assess what importance the Ljuboten position was
9 for Skopje itself. Thank you for this clarification.
10 But please tell me, is it true that Ljuboten was also of the
11 interest for the NLA groups that were on -- in other areas north from
12 Ljuboten in Matejce or in other areas? Is it correct that Ljuboten was
13 of exceptional importance for them as well for the logistic support and
14 its proximity to the city of Skopje?
15 A. Well, I would treat the issue from another point of view. I told
16 you before that people in Ljuboten were selling watermelons, and they --
17 they were -- they had the same thing when they were collecting tobacco,
18 they were selling watermelon and everything they had, the farmers in
19 Ljuboten, people who were dealing with the land, they had an agreement
20 that people in Ljuboten will never be touched. And so that's why they
21 did not expect that.
22 As for what you say, those other words, I don't think they are
23 true, because that agreement existed between Ljubance and Ljuboten, and
24 people were free to plough their land and they -- the farmers were
25 protecting each other, but I don't think what you're saying is true.
1 Q. So if I were to ask you whether you could confirm that quite --
2 quite before the Ljuboten events, groups of people have been noticed that
3 were transporting flour or other necessities to the groups where the NLA
4 was found, then it could be true that Ljuboten was used as a logistics
5 base as well?
6 A. I'm saying no, this is not true.
7 Q. Since your arrival in Ljuboten and the first NLA attacks, you had
8 information that a number of young people from Ljuboten was joining the
10 A. I did not know that, but when I got the medical certificate, it
11 is written there the date when I was wounded, the 12th. And when I was
12 admitted into hospital on Tuesday, and two days was my travel from
13 Ljuboten to Matejce, a shepherd met me there with his cattle, and he went
14 there and reported. And then I was treated by Rexhep Selmani, who was
15 the minister of health at the current government. Then I was taken from
16 the hospital of Lipkova to Nikustak -- Nikustak. In Nikustak, I met some
17 people who were neighbour -- inhabitants of Ljuboten, and that's it. I
18 think this is the reality.
19 Q. Although you met them in the centre of the 114th NLA Brigade on
20 the 14th of August, before that you had no information that some young
21 people from Ljuboten are joining and are fighting together with the NLA.
22 Is that what you're trying to say?
23 A. No. Only when they came to see me, I did not know what that.
24 But during -- I saw this myself, during my treatment there.
25 Q. Let me ask you something else now. Since you mentioned that it
1 took you two days to go from Ljuboten to Matejce, you're aware that
2 Matejce was the headquarters of the NLA Brigade; is that correct?
3 A. I knew this because of the media that there was war going on in
4 Ljubcane [phoen]. Then they took me to Lipkov and the hospital there.
5 They admitted me into the hospital, so I'm talking about the hospital,
6 and I stayed there --
7 Q. You have already explained that. But as a person with a higher
8 education, you surely knew that there is an old -- centuries old
9 monastery; were you aware of that?
10 A. Do you mean the monastery up in the mountain? Can you explain it
11 a bit clearer?
12 Q. The Matejce monastery, which was under the auspices of UNESCO?
13 A. Yes, I have seen that.
14 Q. And while being in that area you were surely able to see that the
15 monastery was -- was totally demolished by the -- and devastated by the
16 NLA groups and that it was desecrated. Have you -- do you know that?
17 A. I visited the monastery later after I recovered from my wounds.
18 If you want to make a comparison, probably I've seen any sign later, but
19 if you want to compare, as I mentioned it before, also the church and the
20 mosque are unique in their religion, and I don't know, probably there
21 were more mosques that were demolished in comparison to the churches,
22 because there are young people who can get out of control, but I don't
23 think it was demolished to that extent. This is what I'm talking about,
24 what I'm saying -- what I saw with my own eyes.
25 Q. Thank you very much.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, are we working
2 until 7.00?
3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Q. Tell me, please, do you know Islam Zendeli? But if are you
6 related to him, please don't mention the relationship.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know that Zendeli Islam was one of those, who was among
9 the first ones from the village of Ljuboten, who joined the NLA?
10 A. I learned this because at the time he had a house in Topansko and
11 when I was admitted to the hospital, I learned that he was working
12 somewhere, he's dealing with something, and I did not know what he was
13 doing. It was there that I learned that he was there (redacted)
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would ask to redact the
17 JUDGE PARKER: Yes.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. If Islam Zendeli, in his statement given to the Prosecutor of the
20 ICTY, were to claim that at that time there were between 25 and 27
21 persons from Ljuboten who were active NLA fighters, then you would agree
22 that that fact would be a correct one?
23 A. No, I do not know that. I've only saw those people who visited
24 me there. I do not know this, how many people were there from Ljuboten.
25 Q. Ljuboten is not a big place, and there are big families there,
1 and the facts of that nature have surely been known to the inhabitants of
2 Ljuboten. Tell me, is it true that given your business, you were -- you
3 had no knowledge that such a -- such a large number of young men from
4 Ljuboten had joined the NLA?
5 A. I think so, because I do not know this. I don't know this.
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, could we please
7 move into a private session for a while?
8 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
9 [Private session]
11 Page 1278 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You have stated that you left your brother and your truck at the
14 border crossing, and you returned to Skopje with your car; is that
16 A. Yes. But in Skopje we left the car there, and then I -- as far
17 as I can remember, we took -- we headed for Radishan then.
18 Q. If you say that you left the car in Skopje, you left the car at
19 the area of Skopje that is called Bit Pazar; is that correct? You took
20 bus number 57, and you came to Radishan; is that correct?
21 A. Yes. It's 57. It's 57.
22 Q. 57.
23 A. And the bus bears this number even today.
24 Q. In your vehicle on the way from Stenkovac to Skopje, were you
25 alone and you -- you were alone and you went to Radishan alone; is that
2 A. No. Up to -- up to Skopje, I went -- I was by myself and then I
3 waited for Isa there because he said, Wait for me because I will go and
4 see my family. And then I waited at the Bit Pazar. This is all I
6 JUDGE PARKER: Is that a convenient time, Ms. Residovic?
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE PARKER: Have you something that you want to say,
9 Mr. Saxon?
10 MR. SAXON: I do have some information for the Chamber. Perhaps
11 the witness could be escorted out first, and then I have some information
12 to provide.
13 JUDGE PARKER: We must adjourn now for the evening. We resume
14 tomorrow at 2.15, and we would ask you to return then. The court officer
15 will show you out. Thank you.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Saxon.
18 MR. SAXON: Your Honour, can we move into private session,
20 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
21 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
23 JUDGE PARKER: We now adjourn for the evening, and we resume
24 tomorrow at 2.15.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day of May,
2 2007, at 2.15 p.m.