Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3470

1 Friday, 13 July 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.

7 And good morning to the witness.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

9 JUDGE PARKER: May I remind you of the affirmation that you made

10 which still applies as you continue with your evidence.

11 Mr. Mettraux.

12 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour. Good morning.

13 WITNESS: ISNI ALI [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Cross-examination by Mr. Mettraux: [Continued]

16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ali.

17 A. Good morning.

18 Q. I'd like to ask you a few questions about the police station of

19 Bit Pazar.

20 Is that correct that while you stayed at the police station in Bit

21 Pazar you were interviewed by a police officer who asked about your state

22 of health. Do you recall that?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you recall that this police officer who came to talk to you

25 indicated that had you been arrested pursuant to an order of an

Page 3471

1 investigative judge? Do you recall that?

2 A. No.

3 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown 1D190, ERN

4 1D002133, the Macedonian is 1D002131. It's 1D190. Thank you.

5 Q. Do you have the document in front of you, Mr. Ali?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... At the top left-hand corner

8 of the document you will see that it is a document that comes from the

9 Ministry of Interior of the Republic of Macedonia, department of the

10 minister of the interior, Bit Pazar, and it's dated the 13th of August,

11 2001. Can you see that?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And in this Official Note there's a comment or a note by a person

14 named Saso who reads in the following terms: "On the 13 August 2001 at

15 2200 from the PS Kisela Voda upon the request of the PS Cair and verbal

16 order of the investigative judge from the Basic Court Skopje II Beqir

17 Shahini, the following persons were brought to be kept in the PS Bit

18 Pazar.

19 Then there's a list of name and the last name is yours, is that

20 correct, number 4?

21 A. Yes, I see it.

22 Q. And what the police officer in question comments is the

23 following: "I searched the person and made visual inspection and I

24 concluded that a physical force is used upon them, in other words, they

25 have obvious bruises and their bodies and faces."

Page 3472

1 Can you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And does that refresh your memory about this meeting with the

4 police officer at Bit Pazar?

5 A. No. This is not true. No one asked us how we were.

6 Q. And can you recall a police officer coming to you at Bit Pazar

7 searching you and looking at your injuries? Is that something that you

8 recall now?

9 A. No, this is not true.

10 MR. METTRAUX: Could the registry please turn to the next page of

11 this document.

12 Q. Sir, in this note there is the following annotation or note. It

13 says that on the 14th August 2001 verbal order of the investigative Judge

14 Beqir Shahini from the Basic Court Skopje II from PS Kisela Voda into PS

15 Bit Pazar were brought the following persons.

16 And on the number 4 is your name again. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And do you recall a police officer indicated to you that you had

19 been transferred from one police station to the other pursuant to an order

20 of an investigative judge? Do you recall that?

21 A. No, I don't remember. We went to the court after the Bit Pazar

22 police station. After Bit Pazar, we were taken to the court at 2.00 a.m.

23 in the morning.

24 Q. Isn't that correct, sir, that it wasn't the only the interview

25 which you had. You also were interviewed or had meeting with police

Page 3473

1 officer whilst you were at Kisela Voda police station. Is that correct?

2 A. No.

3 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown what is P53 with

4 an ERN range ET-N001-9839-01. And the Macedonian version is P53,

5 N001-9827-13.

6 Q. Mr. Ali, are you able to read that copy? It's not a very good

7 quality. Are you able to read it?

8 A. It's difficult to be read.

9 MR. METTRAUX: With the assistance of the usher, I have a paper

10 copy which is slightly better.

11 Q. If I draw your attention, Mr. Ali, on the top left-hand corner

12 again it's a document -- once again it's an Official Note and it again

13 comes from the MVR, Ministry of Interior Republic of Macedonia, sector of

14 interior, Skopje. It's submitted by someone called Deyan.

15 MR. METTRAUX: As for the date, Your Honour, it mentions the 18th

16 on the English version. We are not concern this is the correct date on

17 the original. It could be the 13th.

18 Q. Sir, if I can draw your attention to the subject heading first of

19 that document. It says that it is regarding the official interview

20 conducted with persons who were undertaken from Ljuboten village. Can you

21 see that?

22 A. Yes, I can see it.

23 Q. And the person Deyan went on to say this: "On 12 August 2001 in

24 the premises of DOI Kisela Voda, department of interior, I had interviews

25 with nine persons from Ljuboten village. There were apprehended by the

Page 3474

1 associated security forces of the Republic of Macedonia in the time when

2 combat actions were performed in the village. They were identified and

3 later on through interviews and examination with these persons it was

4 confirmed that these men are as follows."

5 Then there's a list of name and in the middle of them there is

6 your name, Ali Isni. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And then it says the following: "It was confirmed that all of

9 them, nine men, were presenting in Ljuboten village in the time when

10 combat actions were performed by the security forces of Republic of

11 Macdonia. When asked about the events happened in their village, they

12 stated the following: Shots of weapon could be heard coming out from side

13 of the village. Actually, combat activities were led between the police

14 of the Republic of Macedonia and the terrorist gangs. The aforenamed

15 persons stated that they noticed many terrorists fighting and were having

16 fire-arms in their hands. Nevertheless, themselves, they didn't take part

17 in the fights, said they. They wanted to run away from the village and

18 some of them wanted to surrender to police as they did not take part in

19 the fights."

20 Do you recall saying that to the police officer, Mr. Ali?

21 A. No. This is not true. And I don't know who can make up this kind

22 of documents. None of them are true.

23 Q. Isn't that the truth, sir, that at the time that you and the other

24 villagers were being truthful with the police and that later on it was

25 agreed not to mention the NLA anymore. Is that correct?

Page 3475

1 A. I didn't understand the question. Once again, please.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Neuner.

3 MR. NEUNER: To my or -- or my translation of this document

4 doesn't mention the NLA. And the question just put by my learned

5 colleague includes the NLA. Maybe my colleague can rephrase that.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


8 Q. Mr. Ali, is that correct that at the time you saw members of the

9 NLA or otherwise armed men in the village. Is that correct? And I'm

10 talking members of the NLA or Albanian armed men.

11 A. No, this is not true. There were no armed people in the village.

12 Q. Isn't that correct that you and several over villagers told that

13 fact to the police upon your arrest? Is that correct?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Is that also correct, Mr. Ali, that you and many other villagers

16 later changed the story and stated there had been no members of the NLA

17 and otherwise no armed Albanian fighters in the village? Is that correct?

18 A. No, that's not true. The police didn't even ask us during the

19 arrest. They didn't ask us and this is not true.

20 Q. Then in your evidence in chief and in your statement, rather, you

21 indicated that you were taken from Bit Pazar to Skopje Court. Is that

22 correct?

23 A. From Bit Pazar police station at 2.00 in the morning, we were

24 taken to the Skopje Court.

25 Q. And in your evidence in chief you indicated that you had been

Page 3476

1 subjected to abuse at the Skopje Court. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Including by a person who you understood to be a judge. Is that

4 correct?

5 A. Yes, it was a female judge.

6 Q. And that female judge suggested that you should be killed. Is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes. She stepped on my own -- my toes.

9 Q. And you -- it is your evidence that another judge forced you to

10 sign a statement. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes. He forced me as a police --

12 Q. And your lawyer did nothing. Is that your evidence?

13 A. I didn't have a lawyer.

14 Q. And last week, or, sorry, I'm sorry, previously when you were here

15 a few weeks ago, you were asked by the Prosecution who do you recall

16 subjected you to mistreatment, and you indicated that they were reservists

17 and active police officers. Do you recall saying that?

18 A. I don't know what they were. There was a lot of policemen there.

19 They are in hospitals, in prisons. They mistreated people, and when they

20 would get sick, they were sent to the hospitals where they were mistreated

21 again. They were mistreated in police stations and courts.

22 Q. So is that correct, sir, that in fact you don't what category of

23 police officers those individuals were a part of. Is that correct?

24 A. There were all types of police officers. Reservists, regular

25 policemen. All of them were there.

Page 3477

1 Q. I'm asking you specifically about the people who you say inflicted

2 treatment on you that day. Is that correct that as you've just stated you

3 were -- you don't know what part of the police or what part of the police

4 units they would be from. Is that correct?

5 A. I know they were regular policemen, together with reservists.

6 They had reservist uniforms.

7 Q. Is that correct, sir, that you never mentioned either reservists

8 or active police before giving evidence in this courtroom?

9 A. No. I said there were all kinds of police officers.

10 Q. Is that correct that in your statement to the Office of the

11 Prosecutor of 2003 you did not mention that they were reservists or active

12 police officer. You simply mention that they were policemen who had

13 mistreated you. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes, they were police officers. I said 100 times there were

15 policemen and there were all kinds of policemen. In fact, there were

16 active police officers and reservists.

17 Q. But is that correct that you never mentioned the fact that you had

18 identified those police officers as active policemen and reservists in

19 your statement to the Prosecution in 2003. Is that correct?

20 A. I have said police officers, in general, and in fact they are--

21 they were policemen.

22 Q. Is that also correct that in 2004 when you were interviewed a

23 second time by the Prosecution you also only mentioned police officers.

24 No mention of reservists or active policemen. Is that correct?

25 A. I've said policemen.

Page 3478

1 Q. And, again, in your addendum of the 26th of April of 2007 when you

2 read back your previous statement you made no mention of active police or

3 reservist police. Is that correct?

4 A. I don't remember if I have mentioned that or not.

5 Q. Is that right, sir, that during your previous stay here in The

6 Hague you met with your fellow villager, Mr. Mehmedi, Farush Mehmedi?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is that also correct that you discussed your evidence with

9 Mr. Mehmedi at that time?

10 A. No.

11 Q. So if Mr. Mehmedi were to say in this courtroom that you discussed

12 your evidence with him, he would be a liar. Is that correct?

13 JUDGE PARKER: Or mistaken.

14 MR. METTRAUX: Or mistaken.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Or confused. The proposition of a liar is that one

16 that we have mentioned before as putting an unjustified singular

17 position. Thank you.

18 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I will rephrase the question for

19 fairness purposes.

20 Q. Mr. Ali, if Mr. Mehmedi had told this court - Your Honour, it's

21 page 2.069 - that he had discussed his evidence with you while here in The

22 Hague, he would have been either incorrect or would not have told the

23 truth. Is that correct?

24 A. He hasn't -- he didn't tell the truth.

25 Q. And if both you and Mr. Mehmedi had suddenly recalled or given

Page 3479

1 evidence that the police officer in Skopje Court were members of the

2 active and reservist police, that would be a coincidence, is that correct,

3 is that your position?

4 JUDGE PARKER: The witness, Mr. Mettraux, has not at all

5 acknowledged that he suddenly recalled. He has said that in previous

6 statements he merely mentioned that they were police.

7 MR. METTRAUX: I withdraw the question.

8 Q. Mr. Mehmedi -- Mr. Ali, I'm sorry, is that correct that were

9 charged with a criminal offence of terrorism by the prosecutor? Is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, instead of going through the document

13 and to speed up matter, I will simply identify the documents. It's P50,

14 ETN-002-0138-1. And the indictment is P50-ET N002-0128-01.

15 Q. Is that also correct, Mr. Ali, that you were detained pursuant to

16 an order of the investigative judge at the Sutka prison. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And is that correct that subsequently your detention was prolonged

19 on three other occasions. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And is that correct that neither you nor your lawyer challenged

22 the prolongation of the detention which was ordered against you. Is that

23 correct?

24 A. No, this is not true.

25 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I'll simply indicate the numbers. It

Page 3480

1 is P50, ET N002-0230-01; P50, ET-N002-0283-1; P50, ET N002-0296-1; P50, ET

2 N002-0307-1.

3 Q. Is that correct, sir, that on each and every one of those occasion

4 the court in Skopje found there was sufficient evidence to -- to continue

5 your detention in the Sutka prison. Is that correct?

6 A. No, this is not correct.

7 Q. Is that correct, sir, that on the 14th of December of 2001 you

8 were granted a presidential pardon and were released from prison?

9 A. Yes, this is true.

10 Q. Is that correct that in that presidential pardon the president

11 expressed a view that you had been a member of the ONA or LNA, as the

12 document calls it. Is that correct?

13 A. No, this is not correct.

14 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, this is P50, ET N002-0332-1.

15 Q. Mr. Ali, is it correct that in March of 2002 you went again to

16 Skopje Court?

17 A. What is this about, because I don't remember.

18 Q. Is it correct that in March of 2002 you were called as a witness

19 in relation to the death of your son. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, if we can see P55 with an ERN ET

22 N002-1220-N002-1221-1. And the Macedonian version is N002-1146-074.

23 Q. Is that correct, sir, that an investigative judge, Mr. Dragan

24 Nikolovski asked you a question about the circumstances of the death of

25 your son on that occasion?

Page 3481

1 A. I don't remember this, but I don't think it's correct. The

2 internationals were the ones who asked us about what happened.

3 Q. Isn't that correct that on the 21st of March of 2002, Judge

4 Nikolovski asked to you be provided by a certificate and a photo of your

5 son Erxhan. Do you recall?

6 A. It is true that they took a photograph and a birth certificate

7 from me, that is correct.

8 Q. Is that also correct that Judge Nikolovski asked for your

9 permission for an exhumation of the body of your son?

10 A. They asked for permission, but I don't know who exactly asked of

11 this permission. I don't remember.

12 Q. Can you see the document in front of you, Mr. Ali?

13 MR. METTRAUX: If we could please turn to the second page of that

14 document.

15 Q. Sir, while we're waiting for that, is that correct that at that

16 meeting you were accompanied, among other people, by Mr. Kenan Salievski

17 or Saliu, is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is that correct that you had also requested that representatives

20 of the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal be present?

21 A. I don't remember this.

22 Q. Well, if we can look at the top of this second page of the

23 document, the record of the meeting, or hearing is as follows. It

24 says: "In capacity of legal representative of the deceased, Erxhan Ali,

25 one Isni Ali, legal representative, father of the deceased Erxhan is being

Page 3482

1 questioned."

2 Can you see that?

3 A. Can you please repeat it? I didn't understand it.

4 Q. It is the first paragraph on the top of the page. In the English

5 it reads as follows: "In capacity of legal representative of the

6 deceased, Erxhan Ali, one Isni Ali, legal representative, father of the

7 deceased Erxhan, is being questioned.

8 Can you see that at the top of the page?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then the second paragraph it says: "I'm the father of Erxhan

11 Ali born 19/05/1996 in Skopje. I submit a certificate number 29.12.2/380,

12 dated 21st March 2001. I also submit the photograph of little Erxhan Ali

13 and I would like it returned to me once the procedure is over."

14 Can you see that?

15 A. Yes, this is true.

16 Q. And then there's a paragraph where you were asked question about

17 Erxhan. And then it says: "I agree there an exhumation of the body of my

18 son be performed."

19 Can you see that?

20 A. Yes. That's true.

21 Q. And you say: "I have nothing else to say. The minutes have been

22 dictated out loud. I recognise them as my own and signed them myself."

23 Can you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And then it takes notice of the fact that at the hearing the

Page 3483

1 deputy public prosecutor Dragoljub Cakic, the investigative Judge Beqir

2 Shahini, a representative of the municipal community of Ljuboten, Kenan

3 Salievski, as well as a representative of The Hague Tribunal Andzei Sidlik

4 and Ali Nakija from The Hague Tribunal were present."

5 Do you see that. Yes?

6 Q. Can you now recall that representatives of the Office of the

7 Prosecutor were present on this occasion?

8 A. I don't know these persons, but they were both internationals and

9 people from Macedonia.

10 Q. And whilst you were before the investigative judge Mr. Nikolovski

11 did you raise a complaint against -- about what had happened to you in the

12 police station at Bit Pazar and Kisela Voda?

13 A. No, it was not possible for us to complain, because the document

14 was ready, already prepared and we were just forced to sign it. They

15 didn't asked us what happened to us.

16 Q. Do you mean to say that you were forced to sign this very document

17 which is in front of you right now?

18 A. Where does this document come from?

19 Q. Well, we have received it from the Office of the Prosecution,

20 Mr. Ali.

21 A. I apologise, but I really don't understand your question. Is it a

22 document from the court or is it from the Bit Pazar police station or is

23 it another document?

24 Q. Well, first I would like you, if you can, to just answer the

25 question before. You've indicated that you were forced to sign -- you

Page 3484

1 were just forced to sign it. When you said that, Mr. Ali, were you

2 referring to this particular document?

3 A. I don't know this document.

4 Q. Are you saying, Mr. Ali, that you did not sign this document?

5 A. No, I'm not saying that. I did sign it, but what is this document

6 about?

7 Q. Just, if you can, Mr. Ali, if you could just answer the simple

8 question: Is that your evidence that you were forced to sign this

9 document or not?

10 A. I don't know if you understand me, but I really cannot read this

11 document. I don't know what this document refers to.

12 Q. Is it because it is not clear on your screen, Mr. Ali, or is it

13 something else? I have a paper copy perhaps, with the assistance of the

14 court usher.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Mr. Ali, do you recognise your signature at the bottom of this

17 document?

18 A. Yes, I signed this document.

19 Q. And is that your evidence that you were forced -- forced to sign

20 this document?

21 A. No, not this one. I willingly signed this one.

22 Q. Going go back a few step to my earlier question, is that correct

23 that you did not raise an issue with the investigative judge as to what

24 you said happened to you at the Bit Pazar police station and Kisela Voda

25 police station. Is that correct?

Page 3485

1 A. There was no possibility for us even to speak, let alone to file a

2 complaint.

3 Q. Is that your evidence, sir, that you were prevented to speak

4 during the hearing with Judge Nikolovski on that occasion? Is that your

5 evidence?

6 A. Which hearing are you referring to? Hearing in Macedonia or

7 where? I really don't understand you.

8 JUDGE PARKER: Can I interrupt here. I see Mr. Neuner wanting to

9 object, but let me have an observation first, Mr. Mettraux.

10 You are at every material point pushing what the witness has said

11 beyond what he has said and then casting a proposition. The witness is

12 putting to you and has not had from you an answer whether this is a

13 document from the court or from a police station. He said he signed it;

14 he was not forced to sign it. But you have not explored with him then how

15 or why he came to sign it and can he remember it was at court. And you

16 jump past that to the proposition, are you saying you were not allowed to

17 do certain things, et cetera. If you can just see that the witness's mind

18 and your mind are not meeting. And therefore you're misunderstanding or

19 putting to him things that I don't think he has really indicated yet.


21 Q. Mr. Ali, following His Honour Judge Parker's observation, do you

22 recall, having read that document, having had a meeting at the court in

23 Skopje with the persons indicated in the document, which we have just

24 read? Do you recall that meeting?

25 A. No, I don't recall that.

Page 3486

1 Q. Do you recall having a meeting with representative of the

2 Prosecution and a prosecutor and an investigative judge where you gave a

3 certificate and a picture of your son, Erxhan. Do you recall such a

4 meeting?

5 A. Yes, I recall that one.

6 Q. And do you recall that it took place in Skopje at the court. Can

7 you recall that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And can you recall being asked questions by the investigative

10 judge at that time about the death of your son and about the possibility

11 of an exhumation. Do you recall that?

12 A. No, I don't recall that.

13 Q. And during that meeting, Mr. Ali, do you recall being prevented in

14 any way to speak or to talk to the investigative judge?

15 A. No, we were not.

16 Q. And is that correct that during that meeting with the

17 investigative judge you did not raise the issue of what you said had

18 happened to you at Bit Pazar and Kisela Voda. Is that correct?

19 A. Could you please repeat it? Thanks.

20 Q. Is that correct that during the meeting with the investigative

21 judge and the other people indicated in the document you did not raise the

22 issue of what you said had happened to you at the Bit Pazar and Kisela

23 Voda police station. Is that correct?

24 A. We couldn't speak and we couldn't file a complaint. It was the

25 court who prepared these documents. They wrote in them whatever they

Page 3487

1 wanted.

2 Q. And when you say "we couldn't speak and we couldn't file a

3 complaint," why was that, sir?

4 A. Because we were beaten, we were almost dead. They threw water on

5 us just to make it possible for us to gain consciousness again. And can

6 we make a small break, because I cannot go on responding to these nonsense

7 questions.

8 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I can also indicate that I will be

9 finished in approximately less than five minutes.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Can I say there that the way your -- your mind is

11 working quite differently from the witness. He has jumped, as I hear him,

12 to another occasion he was in court.


14 JUDGE PARKER: And therefore we're getting confusing evidence

15 again.

16 Mr. Ali, if I could point out to you that you may find some of

17 this very confusing, but Mr. Mettraux has to try and understand what it is

18 you are saying. The process may not be easy for to you follow, but we

19 would ask you to try and cooperate and assist as much as you can. There

20 is very little more of this to go, and I think you'll find it easier if it

21 can be finished rather than have to come back and have more of it.

22 So we'll just press on for a little longer.

23 Mr. Mettraux.

24 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Q. Mr. Ali, I'm sorry if the question was not clear. I was not

Page 3488

1 referring to a time-period earlier. I was referring to the meeting you

2 had in March of 2002, the document which we have reviewed together. And

3 my question concerning any complaint you could have made related to that

4 particular meeting in March of 2002.

5 Are you able to answer this question: Is that correct that you

6 did not raise with the investigative judge on that occasion any of the

7 matters relating to your treatment at the Bit Pazar and Kisela Voda police

8 station. Is that correct?

9 A. Which investigative judge and which document? This document

10 before me is about Erxhan. Now you're mentioning Erxhan and then you're

11 mentioning Bit Pazar police station. You're confusing me. I don't

12 understand the question. This document pertains to Erxhan and I signed it

13 wilfully. So I don't want else to add to this.

14 Q. Well, perhaps my question was the problem. During this --

15 JUDGE PARKER: I think not, Mr. Mettraux. Can I indicate that the

16 chamber understands fully the witness is saying, yes, I went to court at

17 some time, and there I remember a judge and a prosecutor and we were

18 dealing with the death of my son and I gave to the court the photograph

19 and the birth certificate and I did sign this document. He is not

20 suggesting that he said anything else and the document does not suggest he

21 said anything else. I think you can --

22 MR. METTRAUX: Yes, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE PARKER: -- take it that that is the position.


25 Q. Mr. Ali, is that correct that you never filed any criminal charges

Page 3489

1 in relation to the mistreatment which you described in your evidence in

2 chief?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is that also correct, sir, that on the 12th of August of 2001 a

5 shell hit the roof of your house. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes. This happened on Sunday, that's correct.

7 Q. And is that correct that as a result of the hit your roof was

8 seriously damaged. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. Is that correct also that when you were released from detention

11 your house had been repaired. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And is that correct that the reparation or the work done on your

14 house had been done by members of your family?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And is that correct that you received no assistance for that work

17 from an international organisation or reconstruction company. Is that

18 correct?

19 A. We received some help.

20 Q. And do you recall from whom you received that help, Mr. Ali?

21 A. I don't remember this, because I was in prison.

22 Q. Well, I'm grateful for your patience, Mr. Ali.

23 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour ...

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Mettraux.

25 Mr. Apostolski, are there any questions?

Page 3490

1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have some

2 questions for it witness but considering the fact that this witness asked

3 for a small break I'm wondering whether to start with my cross-examination

4 or to make the break first.

5 JUDGE PARKER: I think you should start, Mr. Apostolski. I

6 understood the witness to be confused by the questioning and I think we've

7 got over that confusion.

8 Is that right? Yes. Carry on, Mr. Apostolski.

9 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Witness Ali Isni, my name is Antonio Apostolski

12 and together with my colleague Jasmina Zivkovic, we represent Mr. Johan

13 Tarculovski in these proceedings.

14 First of all I would like to express my personal condolences and

15 the condolences of my client Johan Tarculovski about the death of your

16 son.

17 You were born in Ljuboten and you live in this village. Is this

18 correct?

19 A. Thank you. Yes.

20 Q. You have completed primary school in your native language,

21 Albanian. Is this correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. After that, you completed secondary school in civil construction

24 in Skopje; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3491

1 Q. Is it correct that the Albanians have lived for centuries in those

2 regions, in the region of the Republic of Macedonia?

3 A. Yes. Though I'm not involved in politics, I know that we have

4 lived there forever.

5 Q. Is it correct that the Albanian people lives now in the

6 territories of today's Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro and Greece?

7 A. I don't know those issues. I have not completed any political

8 school. I know that the Albanians live in this area, so Albania is

9 Albania, Macedonia is Macedonia, Kosovo is Kosovo.

10 Q. Is it correct that the Albanians who live in Macedonia and beyond

11 are a proud people, and the honour is the supreme value in their cultural

12 tradition?

13 A. Once again, I didn't understand the translation.

14 Q. Is it correct that the Albanians who live in Macedonia and beyond

15 are proud people and the honour is the supreme value in their cultural

16 tradition?

17 A. That's correct. I don't understand very well, but ...

18 Q. Is it correct that the Albanians are loyal to their family and

19 beyond?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Is it correct that the Albanians who live in Macedonia are proud

22 to protect their women?

23 A. Protect them from what?

24 Q. I would rephrase the question like this. Is it correct that in

25 the Albanian culture, men are the ones who safeguard the integrity of the

Page 3492

1 family?

2 A. No. Women have also their rights. Men and women are equal.

3 Q. Is it correct that in the core of the Albanian culture when

4 someone gives their word of honour, or besa, it means that they have to

5 live up to the besa?

6 A. This is correct. When you give your word of honour to someone,

7 you have to live up, not to betray him.

8 Q. Would an Albanian ever break up that promise, the besa?

9 A. There are many -- a lot of Albanians. Everyone has his own besa.

10 Q. In 1987, you served a conscription military service in Raska and

11 Belgrade. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell me in which branch of the army you were serving?

14 A. I was four months in the infantry, then I worked in my -- but I

15 have been taught to work in a workshop.

16 Q. Does it mean that it is correct that you were trained to handle

17 infantry weapons?

18 A. In the army, yes, I had a training in automatic rifle.

19 Q. On the 10th of August, 2001, the shelling of the village of

20 Ljuboten started, shelling by the Macedonian security forces. Is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You were at your house, and you were able to see the location

24 where the shelling came from, towards the village of Ljuboten?

25 A. Friday, 8.00, when the shelling from the police started, I could

Page 3493

1 see it only from the other side, and we entered into the basement until

2 lunch-time. I don't know exactly what hour it was. After lunch, the

3 shelling stopped and we went out to go to the field, and at about 5.00

4 when the -- my son was killed we entered again the basement and that --

5 this is what happened.

6 Q. Could you tell me how many shells fell there on the Friday, 10th

7 of August, 2001?

8 A. Yes, I can. If you were in the basement frightened, could you

9 have counted shelling and could you be able to say how many shrapnels and

10 with what hand the shrapnels were taken off? So if that was to happen to

11 you, would you have been able to say all these things? I apologise.

12 Q. I have asked you only whether you are able to tell me how many

13 shells fell in the village of Ljuboten in the morning of the 8th of

14 August. If you are able to answer that, please do so.

15 A. I did not count the shells. Many shells fell, but I wasn't able

16 to count them. How could we count them? We were with the family, with

17 the children. We were trying to survive in the basements and not come out

18 and count the shells.

19 Q. I apologise. My question was about the 10th of August, so on page

20 24, line 20 should read "10th of August."

21 On Saturday, the 11th of August, the shelling continued; is that

22 correct?

23 A. On Saturday, from the morning until lunch there were -- there

24 was -- there were shellings. In the afternoon the shellings stopped until

25 Sunday morning. And then on Sunday, the police entered the village.

Page 3494

1 Q. You stated that you did not feel safe, so you decided to leave the

2 village, is that correct, on Sunday, August 12?

3 A. On Sunday, at about 6.00 in the afternoon, we left the house and

4 we went to Skopje. We -- and we arrived at the Kodra e Zaimit

5 check-point. This is where the police apprehended us and all the things

6 occurred as everybody knows already.

7 Q. When you started from your house towards Skopje, you saw near the

8 road, walking by, you saw the body of Sulejman Bajrami lying down on the

9 street. Is this correct?

10 A. Yes, this is correct.

11 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

12 the Exhibit P00019.

13 Q. Can you tell me, can you recognise Sulejman Bajrami in this

14 picture, in this photograph?

15 A. No. He was killed here on this place -- spot.

16 Q. Can you tell me at what time did you pass by his body on Sunday?

17 A. At about 6.00. We went here, above, and I saw -- I saw him from

18 the other side.

19 Q. We're speaking about 6.00 in the afternoon?

20 A. Yes, in the afternoon. At about 6.00. I don't know the exact

21 time.

22 Q. Was his body at this location when you were passing by?

23 A. No. He was closer to the street.

24 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could I ask for the assistance of

25 the usher to help the witness mark the location where he has seen the body

Page 3495

1 of Sulejman Bajrami.

2 Q. If you could circle that in the photograph the location where the

3 body of Sulejman Bajrami was lying?

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. Could you please use an arrow to show where his feet were facing.

6 Would this circle be his head?

7 A. This way. And I didn't have really time to see how his -- where

8 was his foot or where were his fingers. I didn't get very close to see

9 whether he -- where was exactly his finger. My family was behind me.

10 Q. Could you please mark with number 1 the place where the feet of

11 the body were; and with the number 2 the location of the head.

12 A. The head was here; his feet were on this side.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Could I just note for the record that

14 number 1 depicts the head and number 2 the feet.

15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Did you see any other body, apart from the body of Sulejman

17 Bajrami immediately next to his?

18 A. No. No, there was no other body.

19 Q. So if anyone else were to state before this Court that next to the

20 body of Sulejman Bajrami there was another body, it would not be correct?

21 A. A little further to the -- to the door of Sabri Ahmeti was lying

22 the body of Muharon Bajrami, 20 to 30 metres further and here, next to

23 Sulejman Bajrami there was no one. He was alone.

24 Q. So the body of Bajrami -- I apologise.

25 So the body of Ahmeti was near the door, 20 to 30 metres away from

Page 3496

1 the body of Sulejman Bajrami?

2 JUDGE PARKER: Nearer toward the door. He is just indicating the

3 direction, not the position of the body.

4 Is that correct?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE PARKER: They were 20 or 30 yards -- or metres apart, which

7 I think is the point you're interested in.

8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes. I wish to tender this

9 photograph in evidence, Your Honours.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you want me to explain this

11 again?

12 JUDGE PARKER: I think we've grasped it enough, thank you.

13 The photograph will be received as an exhibit. Thank you.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number 2D32.

15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

16 Q. When asked by my learned colleague, the Prosecutor, you stated

17 that when you testified before the investigating judge in Basic Court

18 Skopje II, the judge who was interviewing you was stepping on your feet

19 and he threatened you that unless you signed the statement he would call

20 the police to beat you. Is that correct?

21 JUDGE PARKER: He or she, Mr. Apostolski.

22 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] It would be a he.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The judge in the -- during the trial

24 was male. And in the corridor when the police was keeping there this -- a

25 woman came there. She was in civilian clothes. I don't know if she was

Page 3497

1 judge or what she was. She was the one who stepped on our toes. We were

2 already dead. We could -- barely were able to breathe.

3 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]

4 Q. And the judge who took the statement from you, did he threaten you

5 to sign the statement?

6 A. Yes. I -- he -- I asked him who wrote this, and he said, Just

7 sign this, because I will bring in the police and they will beat you up.

8 Q. You stated that you are able to recognise the judge; is that

9 correct?

10 A. Yes, I know him.

11 Q. Could you describe him. How did the investigating judge look?

12 A. He had curled hair. He had about 30 to 35 years. He -- Beqir who

13 was also in Ljuboten knows him because when we went to court for my son,

14 Beqir and some foreigners that were there, that judge opened the door.

15 When he saw me he just closed the door and I told to Beqir, This is the

16 one, this is the judge that forced us to sign the documents. So Beqir

17 know this is judge as well.

18 Q. Are you now speaking about Beqir, the investigating judge in Basic

19 Court Skopje II Beqir Shahini?

20 A. Beqir Shahini was there when weapon went to court for Erxhan and

21 when this other judge came to this room, he immediately closed the door

22 and he left and this is when I told Beqir that this was the judge who was

23 there that night and who forced us to sign the document.

24 Q. Very well. Thank you.

25 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no further

Page 3498

1 questions.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Apostolski.

3 Mr. Neuner, is there any re-examination?

4 MR. NEUNER: Just a very few questions.

5 JUDGE PARKER: I think Mr. Ali will be glad when you finish those

6 very few questions.

7 MR. NEUNER: First I would have a question to my colleague

8 Mr. Mettraux. The document 1D190, was this tendered by you? It's an

9 Official Note 936 from Bit Pazar police station.

10 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, did I not seek to tender this document

11 for the reason that the witness had not acknowledged or remembered the

12 meeting in question.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

14 Re-examination by Mr. Neuner:

15 Q. I want to -- good morning, Mr. Ali. I want to take to you Friday

16 afternoon, the 10th of August, 2001.

17 You stated until about 5.00 you have been in the field, right?

18 A. On Friday, yes, when my son was killed, I was there going to the

19 field and when the shell fell, it fell about 200 metres away from us, and

20 I turned back and I went to my uncle Avdil.

21 Q. And I think you also stated that you have been in the basement

22 from that time onwards; after 5.00, so to speak?

23 A. Yes. In my uncle's house and it is there that my wife called and

24 she said come back home because Erxhan was killed. And I could not get

25 out of the basement. However, I was lucky, because I somehow came out of

Page 3499

1 the basement and I went to my house.

2 Q. And that day how long did you stay in the basement?

3 A. Which basement?

4 Q. You mentioned that on Friday after 5.00 you have been in the

5 basement, and I just wanted to ask how long that day you have been in the

6 basement.

7 JUDGE PARKER: He has spoken of more than one basement. I think

8 he is saying that when there was an explosion in which his son was killed

9 he went first to the basement of his uncle's house.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of my uncle's house basement, I

11 stayed there about 15 minutes. After I called at -- I called my house, my

12 wife responded and she said come quickly because our son was killed, and I

13 went there.


15 Q. That afternoon/evening, had you ever been to the school in

16 Ljuboten?

17 A. No.

18 Q. I want to take to you Monday, the 13th of August, 2001. You were

19 at Bit Pazar police station?

20 A. Yes. I don't know, Bit Pazar or Prolece station. I don't know.

21 At that time I don't recall anything. What I recall is that I was at a

22 police station.

23 Q. And in what state of health had you been on Monday?

24 A. We were -- we didn't know anything. We hadn't had anything to

25 eat. Since my son was killed, I didn't even eat until we were taken to

Page 3500

1 Sutka, I don't know how many days we were kept.

2 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, no further questions.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Ali, will you be pleased to know that --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

5 JUDGE PARKER: -- the questions that will be asked of you, the

6 Chamber is very grateful that you have been able to come to assist us, and

7 we know it's been difficult for to you try and have to think back over the

8 details of those events, especially the death of your son.

9 We thank you very much, and we indicate, of course, that you can

10 now return to your home and your family.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can I only make some

12 questions?


14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to ask these people here why

15 they killed Erxhan. He was only a child. He was playing on the street.

16 He called him a terrorist. They traumatised my family. They killed my

17 son. They destroyed my health. They put me to prison. This was done by

18 Mr. Ljube Boskoski with his police and with the army of the Republic of

19 Macedonia.

20 Thank you.

21 JUDGE PARKER: You'll understand that the answer to that question

22 is one of the things that the three Judges here are looking at to see if

23 they can find an answer, so that you'll just have to wait until we have

24 finished hearing all the people who can help us with their evidence about

25 what occurred and we then may have some answers to these problems that

Page 3501

1 concern you.

2 So thank you again.

3 We now adjourn --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 JUDGE PARKER: We resume at 11.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

7 [The witness entered court]

8 --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Good morning.

10 Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card given to

11 you now.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.

20 MS. REGUE: Good morning, Your Honours. The Prosecution will call

21 witness Qamuran Rexhepi.

22 Just, Your Honours, a brief issue. This witness has only one

23 statement but it was certified twice due to an oversight. So we will seek

24 to tender the first statement which was, sorry, the statement which was

25 certified in 2005.

Page 3502

1 Examination by Ms. Regue:

2 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, good morning.

3 A. Good morning.

4 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, do you recall providing a statement to the Office of

5 the Prosecutor in 2004?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you recall meeting with an officer appointed by your registry

8 of this Tribunal to certify your statement in 2005?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you recall introducing some handwritten changes at that time?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Do you recall meeting with a colleague of mine in Ljuboten this

13 year, and also with myself yesterday and introducing some further

14 corrections?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In particular, Mr. Rexhepi, do you recall indicating that in

17 paragraph 2 of your statement you did your military service from 1994 to

18 1995?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you also indicate that in paragraph 4 the man that you saw

21 coming from above the hills was two to three kilometres closer to the

22 village and you were not sure whether he was wearing a uniform because it

23 was too far away?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you recall also indicating in paragraph 8 that the

Page 3503

1 sentence: "We could see five men in camouflage uniform," should be

2 replaced by "I could see approximately five men in camouflage uniform."

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, including these corrections that you made, are you

5 satisfied that the statement that you gave is correct and accurate?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, I will seek to tender this witness's

8 statement pursuant to Rule 92 bis.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number P372.

11 MS. REGUE: The witness, Qamuran Rexhepi is a Ljuboten resident of

12 Albanian ethnicity. On Friday, 10 August, 2001, the witness heard and saw

13 shooting and shelling coming from the Macedonian positions above the

14 hill. He also saw fighting coming from the church, from around the church

15 and from the Brace's house where a police check-point was located.

16 On Sunday, the 12th he saw a number of houses on fire in

17 Ljuboten. He also saw approximately five men in camouflage uniform

18 carrying gasoline and gas cylinders to set property on fire. Soon

19 afterwards the witness and his family joined a large number of other

20 villager who were fleeing Ljuboten. Once they arrived at the check-point,

21 the police separated men from women. The men were forced to lie on the

22 ground and they were beaten and mistreated. They were then transported by

23 a police jeep to Butel or Cair police station and afterwards to Karpos

24 police station where they were beaten and mistreated. At Karpos the

25 witness undertook the paraffin test.

Page 3504

1 On 14 August the witness was taken to Skopje Court. He saw how

2 fellow villagers were beaten by police officers. He was then taken to

3 Sutka prison where he remained for more than four months.

4 Could I please call ERN N004-4729. It's 65 ter 199.22, page 290.

5 It's photo A of page 9 of the court binder, Your Honours.

6 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, in paragraph 3 of your statement you mention that on

7 Friday you saw shooting from around a church. Are you able to see the

8 church, the church in this photo, and, if so, could you please encircle it

9 and write number 1.

10 A. [Marks].

11 Q. And write number 1, please.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. For the record the witness has just drew a circle in the upper

14 left side of the photo.

15 Also in the same paragraph, you mention that you saw shooting

16 coming from the Brace's house. Are you able to see the Brace's house in

17 this photo, Mr. Rexhepi?

18 A. The house cannot be seen here.

19 Q. Could you please draw an arrow indicating the direction where the

20 Brace's house is located?

21 A. It's in the direction of Ljubanci village.

22 Q. Could you please -- thanks. Could you please draw an arrow.

23 A. Yes, yes. [Marks].

24 Q. For the record the witness drew an arrow on the right side of the

25 photo.

Page 3505

1 From this location how far would you say that the Brace's house is

2 located?

3 A. There is a road here. From this house up to there, it's about 10

4 to 15 metres.

5 Q. Could you please write then "10/15 metres," just above the arrow?

6 That's okay.

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, are you able to see Rami Jusufi's house in this

9 map -- sorry, in this photo?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Could you please encircle it and write number 3.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. Could you please write number 3 a bit more on the right side of

14 the circle, because we cannot see the number.

15 For the record the witness has just drew a circle on the left side

16 of the photo in the centre part.

17 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, I would like to exhibit this photo.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number P373.

20 MS. REGUE: Could I please have display ERN N005-7603. It's the

21 panoramic photo in the page 5 of your court binder. Thanks.

22 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, you mentioned in paragraph 8 of your statement that

23 in the morning of the Sunday, the 12th, you saw approximately five men in

24 camouflage uniforms carrying gasoline and gas cylinder.

25 MS. REGUE: If I could have the usher's assistance again. Thanks.

Page 3506

1 Q. If you could encircle the area where you saw these men and write

2 number one.

3 A. [Marks].

4 Q. Thanks. For the record the witness has drawn a circle just on the

5 middle of the photo on the left of the mosque.

6 Also in paragraph 8 and 9 of your statement you explain that your

7 house --

8 A. Excuse me. They were not at the church. They were behind my

9 house.

10 Q. No. We understood, Mr. Rexhepi. I was just explaining for the

11 record that you drew a circle on this photograph just behind the mosque

12 that we can see --

13 A. Yes, that's correct, behind the mosque.

14 Q. Thanks. Also in paragraph 8 and 9 of your statement you explained

15 that the same morning, afterwards your house was set on fire. Are you

16 able to see your house and drew a circle and write number 2?

17 A. I marked my house with number 1. It's near the mosque, my house.

18 Q. And you saw the men in camouflage uniform near your house?

19 A. Behind my house. The house that they burned down, I saw them

20 behind that house, in the yard of Harun Rexhepi.

21 Q. For -- Mr. Rexhepi, the house of Harun Rexhepi, how close is to

22 your house?

23 A. Just one metre apart. They're all together, the three houses that

24 were burnt down, they were all close to each other. Harun's house, my

25 house, and my uncle's house.

Page 3507

1 Q. Can we agree then that within the circle and the number 1 you also

2 mark your house and you also indicated Harun's house? Everything is in

3 the same area?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. You also mention in paragraph 8 of your statement that Sunday

6 morning near the church you saw the houses of Qenan Rashiti, Isuf Rashiti,

7 and Sabit Rashiti burning. Are you able to see the house of Qenan Rashiti

8 in this photo?

9 A. I cannot find it. I cannot recognise it on this photograph.

10 Q. Do you think that if we make the photo bigger, you will be able to

11 see it?

12 A. Yes.

13 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, can I exhibit this photo and then maybe

14 we can have another still with a zoom.

15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number P374.

17 MS. REGUE: And, yeah, if we could call the same photo.

18 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, would you like us to move a bit to the right or is

19 this okay?

20 A. You cannot see the house itself because there are other houses

21 just in front of it.

22 Q. Okay. So could you please simply drew an arrow where --

23 MS. REGUE: Yeah, please.

24 Q. -- indicating where the house is located of Qenan Rashiti?

25 A. His house is behind these white houses that you see here.

Page 3508

1 Q. Would you please write number 1.

2 A. [Marks].

3 Q. You are able to see the house of Isuf Rashiti?

4 A. I can only see the roof.

5 Q. Okay. Could you please mark number 2.

6 A. [Marks].

7 Q. And, finally, can you see the house of Sabit Rashiti?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And write number 3. Thanks.

10 MS. REGUE: For the record, the witness has marked three houses

11 which are a bit on the centre of the photo on the right side.

12 Your Honours, I would like to exhibit this still.

13 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number P375.

15 MS. REGUE: And now, I'd like the help of Ms. Walpita because we

16 will use a clip through Sanction. It's 65 ter 309, V000-3494. And the

17 clip, it from 46 seconds until 1 minute, 3 seconds.

18 [Videotape played]


20 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, you mention in paragraph 13 of your statement that

21 you left Ljuboten together with your family and approximately 100 other

22 villagers. Does this clip reflect those moments?

23 A. On the 12th of August, it was a Sunday when we left the village.

24 Q. Correct. And does this video capture those moments when you were

25 leaving on Sunday, the 12th of August?

Page 3509

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. How far is the location that we saw in the clip from the

3 check-point where you were stopped approximately?

4 A. I would say a half an hour away.

5 Q. And that in kilometres? Are you able to be more accurate?

6 A. About one kilometre to one and a half, approximately.

7 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, I will seek to tender this clip.

8 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number P376.

10 MS. REGUE: Could I please call ERN N004-5084. It's the photo A

11 depicted in the page 20 of the court binder.

12 Q. And, Mr. Rexhepi, in the meantime we see this photo I would like

13 to ask you when you were actually in the check-point and you were forced

14 to lie on the ground facing the floor and you were mistreated, did the

15 police say something to you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you explain to the Trial Chamber what they say to you?

18 A. They were cursing us at the check-point. They maltreated us,

19 beated us. They did with us whatever they wanted.

20 Q. Did they use any weapon in particular to threaten you?

21 A. I was holding my child in my arms, and I wanted to give my child

22 to my wife, and he prepared his gun to shoot. He wanted to shoot at a two

23 and a half month old baby. Then my wife came and picked the baby. They

24 made us lie down, take off our T-shirts. They started to beat us. They

25 were running on our backs. They were hitting us with whatever they could

Page 3510

1 land their hands on, with weapons and whatever.

2 Q. If we could see now the photo.

3 Mr. Rexhepi, do you recognise the photo -- the building depicted

4 in this photo?

5 A. This is the Karpos police station.

6 Q. Is this the police station where you were taken by the police in

7 the afternoon of Sunday, 12 August 2001?

8 A. Yes. After Butel. After Butel, we were taken to Karpos police

9 station.

10 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, could I exhibit this photo.

11 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be exhibit number P377.

13 MS. REGUE: Could I please call Exhibit P00050, page 22, ERN

14 N002-0205.

15 That's not the document. It's 0205, N002-0205, not 0105.

16 Q. In the meantime that we wait for the document, Mr. Rexhepi, could

17 I ask you a further question. When you were taken to Skopje Court, you

18 mention in paragraph 32 of your statement that you saw fellow villagers

19 being brought and beaten by police officer. Do you remember which type of

20 uniforms were these police officers wearing in the Skopje Court?

21 A. They were wearing camouflage uniforms. These were policemens and

22 inspector from the Bit Pazar police station. They work as such even

23 nowadays. They had the same uniform then, and I was severely beaten, so I

24 could not recognise the colours, but they were camouflage uniforms.

25 Q. And how did you know that they were from Bit Pazar?

Page 3511

1 A. Because one of the policemen who was standing by me when others

2 tried to beat me said to them, "Stop, he is my client. Don't beat him."

3 I know some of them. I saw them one or two weeks before I came

4 here.

5 Q. Thanks.

6 MS. REGUE: Could we move now to the document that you can see on

7 your screen. You can see the Macedonian version on the right side.

8 Q. This document reads on the upper left corner: "Ministry of

9 Interior of the Republic of Macedonia, and then it's dated 14 August,

10 2001, Skopje. The title is Official Note, 538 and the subject is

11 official conversation conducted with persons taken over from the village

12 of Ljuboten.

13 The document reads: "On 12 August 2001, in Kisela Voda and in

14 Karpos I conducted an official conversation with eight persons taken from

15 Ljuboten." And if we see -- we move three lines below we see your name.

16 In the next paragraph we can read: "From the conversations

17 conducted with these persons they stated that shooting from all sides

18 could be heard in the village, that is to say, that the persons so

19 combating between the police and terrorist groups."

20 In the next paragraph we can see: "They had also noticed several

21 terrorists shooting from weapons."

22 Mr. Rexhepi, were you interview in Karpos police station?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Although you were not interviewed, did you see the police fighting

25 against anyone between -- excuse me, on Sunday, the 12th of August, 2001?

Page 3512

1 A. The police was firing at the civilians.

2 Q. Did you see during that weekend, 10 to 12 August, any NLA presence

3 in the village?

4 A. No, there weren't any.

5 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, during the time that you were in Sutka and after you

6 left Sutka were you ever contacted by any member of the police or the

7 ministry of interior inquiring what had happened to you or what had

8 happened in the Ljuboten the weekend 10 to 12 August 2001?

9 A. No, no, nobody came to ask.

10 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, I have no further questions.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

12 Ms. Residovic.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

14 Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Qamuran Rexhepi. My name is Edina Residovic and

16 together with my colleague Guenael Mettraux, I represent Mr. Ljube

17 Boskoski before this trial.

18 Before I start asking you some questions, Mr. Rexhepi, I would

19 kindly ask you to carefully listen to my questions, observe a pause for

20 the question to be translated, and only afterwards answer my question so

21 that the interpreters would be in a situation, in position to translate my

22 questions and your answers.

23 Did you understand me, Mr. Rexhepi?

24 A. Yes.

25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters kindly ask for Ms. Regue to turn

Page 3513

1 off her microphone.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Rexhepi, that in 2001 you and your family lived

4 in Ljuboten; that is, you lived with your wife and your newly born son?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you can testify before this Court that Ljuboten is located not

7 far from Skopje and that it is situated on the slopes Skopska Crna Gora

8 Mountain. Is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You also know probably that Skopska Crna Gora has exceptional

11 strategic importance for the defence of the capital of Republic of

12 Macedonia, Skopje; is that correct?

13 A. I don't understand the question.

14 Q. My question is: Is it correct that the security of Skopje as a

15 capital of the Republic of Macedonia is related for the security and

16 safety of everything that takes place at Skopska Crna Gora. Is that

17 correct?

18 A. I don't understand the question at all. I don't understand what

19 she's saying.

20 Q. Very well. Maybe we will come at that issue in another way.

21 You know that one could arrive across the slopes of Skopska Crna

22 Gora Mountain to the border with Kosovo; is that correct?

23 A. Yes, there is a mountain. It can be crossed. I don't know what

24 is the question exactly.

25 Q. You understood the question and you answered it.

Page 3514

1 Is it also correct that on the other side of the Skopska Crna Gora

2 mountain is the region of Kumanovo that borders with southern Serbia?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Considering the proximity to the borders of southern Serbia and

5 Kosovo, that region is of importance for the safety of the capital and the

6 entire state, the Republic of Macedonia; is that correct?

7 A. I don't understand.

8 Q. You know that in 2001 there was a crisis in the Republic of

9 Macedonia and that in several areas, especially in those around the

10 Kumanovo and Tetovo, there were open clashes before the terrorist groups

11 and the army and the police of the Republic of Macedonia. Were you aware

12 of that?

13 A. No. In my village there were none. I'm not interested what was

14 there in Kumanovo.

15 Q. Because of that situation in the Republic of Macedonia, did you

16 know that the command for the defence of the city of Skopje was

17 established in order to prevent the penetration of the terrorist groups

18 towards the capital?

19 A. No.

20 Q. In June 2001, the army of the Republic of Macedonia has deployed

21 its forces also in the area of Skopska Crna Gora and in positions around

22 the village of Ljuboten. Were you aware of that?

23 A. Once again, please more precisely.

24 Q. Are you aware that in June 2001, the army of the Republic of

25 Macedonia deployed its forces in the area of Skopska Crna Gora and

Page 3515

1 particularly in the region around the village of Ljuboten? Are you aware

2 of that?

3 A. A month before or I don't know exactly, maybe a month or two

4 earlier, Ljuboten was surrounded by police. I don't know anything more

5 than that.

6 Q. In your statement to the Prosecutor of this Tribunal, on the 4th

7 of October, 2004, you stated to the best of your recollection and you

8 spoke truthfully; is that correct?

9 A. Once again, I didn't understand well.

10 Q. When you were giving a statement to the investigator of the ICTY

11 in 2004, did you speak the truth about the issues you were testifying

12 about?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Then in item 3 of your statement you stated that on the 10th of

15 August, 2001, from the positions of -- at Malistena the shelling of

16 Ljuboten started. Do you remember that you testified about that?

17 A. First shelling started from Malistena, which was a check-point

18 above the village. This is where -- from where the shelling started.

19 Q. And you knew that those were the positions of the army of the

20 Republic of Macedonia; is that correct?

21 A. I came to know this from the villagers after the war that this was

22 the army. I don't know whether it was the police or the army. I only

23 know that the shelling came from above.

24 Q. And that place from where you saw the shelling started, as you

25 testified, was at the distance of two or three kilometres from you.

Page 3516

1 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, the witness didn't say that exactly in

2 his statement.

3 Ms. Residovic, I think that in fairness to the witness that should

4 be put into context. He said that he saw a man, in another paragraph he

5 mentioned that he saw a man coming with a grenade two to three

6 kilometres.

7 MS. REGUE: Thank you very much. I apologise. The exact sentence

8 was, and I apologise if I misinterpreted it. The witness just stated what

9 was in his response, I don't know whether those were civilians, policemen,

10 or anyone from the army, but I suppose that they were not soldiers,

11 because their positions were outside of the village and probably from this

12 context that they were outside of the village I probably interpreted it

13 differently, thinking that the witness knew that it was exactly at those

14 positions above the village the army was located.

15 So I apologise, Your Honours, and it was not my intention to put

16 to the witness something that he hadn't said.

17 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, you just stated now that you learned from your fellow

18 villagers about this after the event. Is it correct that the information

19 about the positions of the army around the village came also from the

20 shepherds that were taking their sheep to pasture in that area?

21 A. I want the question to be stated more clearly, please.

22 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Rexhepi, that the information about the

23 positions of the army around the village of Ljuboten would come to you

24 from the village shepherds who took their sheep to pasture at the slopes

25 around the village?

Page 3517

1 A. [No interpretation]

2 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Rexhepi, that already in the spring --

3 A. I don't understand the questions. I want them more clearly. No

4 one could go to the mountain a month or two earlier because when the

5 police blocked this area neither the shepherds nor anyone else could go

6 there because of the police or the army, whatever. I don't know who they

7 were. They know for themselves those that were there.

8 Q. Although your answer did not make into the transcript, you just

9 repeated your answer providing more detail so it is not necessary for me

10 to repeat the question that I have asked earlier.

11 With regards to what you have just stated, you said that the

12 shepherds could not go into the mountain since they would have been

13 stopped. Could you tell me precisely who was stopping the shepherds who

14 took the sheep into the mountain?

15 A. The police.

16 Q. Could you state for the Court where exactly were the positions of

17 the police who stopped and prevented the shepherds from going up into the

18 mountain?

19 Could you answer the question that I have asked you, please?

20 A. Please repeat it again.

21 Q. Considering that you stated that the police or the army would stop

22 the shepherds who took the sheep into the mountain, what I'm asking you

23 is: Can you say where at the mountain were the positions of the police of

24 the Republic of Macedonia? Where were their check-points?

25 A. On the side of the Rastak village, on the east. Call them the

Page 3518

1 valleys of Dina.

2 Q. And on the road towards the mountains, the words Bacila and the

3 Bel Kamen localities, can you tell me where were those police

4 check-points?

5 A. This is the point where they were, the valleys of Dina. The Bel

6 Kamen was further than this spot. I'm not a shepherd. I didn't take

7 sheep to the pasture to know exactly the place.

8 Q. Thank you. Let's move, then, to some different questions.

9 Is it correct that already in the spring of 2001 a number of

10 youngsters from the village of Ljuboten joined the NLA?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And if I say that in the summer of 2001 around 20 people from

13 Ljuboten have actively joined the ranks of the NLA, then it would be the

14 truth; is that correct?

15 A. No.

16 Q. And if I were to put to you that many of the inhabitants of

17 Ljuboten have actively helped the NLA, providing logistics support, then

18 that fact would be correct. Is that so?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And if I were to tell you that Ljuboten was used as early as from

21 the spring of 2001 as a logistics base of sorts for the NLA and that the

22 weapons and food were transported through Ljuboten to Matejce and other

23 places where fights of the NLA took place, it would also be correct. Is

24 that so?

25 A. No.

Page 3519

1 Q. You know Kenan Salievski. Is that so?

2 A. I know him as a fellow villager, as a friend.

3 Q. And in 2001 he was the president of the crisis committee in the

4 village; is that correct?

5 A. I don't know this.

6 Q. And if I tell you that Mr. Kenan Salievski in his statement to the

7 Prosecutor of the ICTY enumerated many people who were NLA members, then

8 you can agree with me that Kenan Salievski would know about those facts

9 better than you do?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You are aware that on the 10th of August, the Friday, not far from

12 Ljuboten at Ljubotenski Bacila locality, NLA planted mines that killed

13 eight soldiers of the army of the Republic of Macedonia and that several

14 soldiers were wounded. You must be aware of that fact?

15 A. Once again, please.

16 Q. Are you aware that on 10th of August, in the morning, the NLA

17 planted a mine at Ljubotenski Bacila locality not far from the village of

18 Ljuboten and that that mine killed eight members of the army and injured

19 many other soldiers. Are you aware of that?

20 A. The mine was planted four to five kilometres away from the village

21 and the mine was not planted by the people of the NLA. I don't know who

22 planted that mine there. It is not true that NLA people planted the mine

23 there.

24 Q. And you certainly know that on that day three armed persons who

25 participated in the planting of that mine entered the village. Are you

Page 3520

1 aware of that?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And that among those persons there was also a Shefajet Bajrami,

4 nickname Shef, who was otherwise a NLA member; is that correct?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Before this mine explosion at Ljubotenski Bacila the crisis

7 committee organised guards or watches in the village, so that nobody who

8 was uninvited could enter the village; is that correct?

9 A. No, there were no guards. No one guarded Ljuboten from the

10 villagers. It is the police that guarded us.

11 Q. After the mine explosion on Friday, August 10, many of the

12 villagers of Ljuboten, fearing that the fights in the city would be

13 continued had left the village and moved towards Skopje. Are you aware of

14 that?

15 A. Maybe someone had left the village. The village is big. I don't

16 know. I could not stop the people from leaving.

17 Q. But you are you aware that the reasons why some people left the

18 village was actually the fact that armed persons entered the village after

19 the mine explosion?

20 A. Which persons do you refer to?

21 Q. I have asked you a moment ago whether you were aware that after

22 the mine explosion three armed persons entered the village, and my

23 question pertains to those persons.

24 A. No, this is not correct.

25 Q. In your statement -- I apologise, before that, you and your family

Page 3521

1 remained in the village; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In your statement of 4th of October, 2004, you stated the

4 following: "Sometime later in the afternoon, the Macedonian army started

5 to shell from their positions on the hills. I came with some friends,,

6 Samedin Rexhepi, Veap Aliu, and Erhan Aliu to the house of Avdil Aliu in

7 the upper part of Ljuboten to see what was going on." Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So when you were giving that statement on the 4th of October,

10 2004, you knew that in the hills above the village the positions of the

11 Macedonian army were located; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And it would be different from what you explained a moment ago,

14 that you did not know who was around the village, whether it was the army,

15 the police, or someone else? Is that different from what you stated a

16 moment ago?

17 A. After the war, I came to know who was there; but before the war,

18 before the 12th of August, I didn't know who was there. This is what I

19 said before. So I am speaking before the events in Ljuboten. Before the

20 events, I didn't know; after that, I came to know.

21 Q. But in the statement that you gave to the Prosecutor on the 4th of

22 October, 2004, you did not say that you -- that regarding those facts that

23 it was the army positions above the village, you learned only after the

24 conflict. But you stated instead that in the afternoon the army started

25 shelling from the position above the village. Is that correct?

Page 3522

1 A. The shelling was on Friday, from Malistena, from the check-point.

2 I cannot make -- I could not make at the time a distinction from that

3 distance whether it was police, army, or civilians. How can I tell that?

4 Q. My question was very brief. I have just read that you stated in

5 the item 4 of your statement, and it does not correspond entirely to what

6 you have stated now.

7 You stated earlier that the shelling started from the positions of

8 the Macedonian army; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, how far were you from the place where

11 the shelling started from, from the positions of the Macedonian army?

12 A. The check-point?

13 Q. I will read again to you what you have stated.

14 "[In English] Sometime in the afternoon the Macedonian army

15 starting to shell from their position on the hills. I went with my --

16 with some friends, Samedin Rexhepi, Veap Aliu, and Erhan Aliu to the house

17 of Avdil Ali, house to the upper part of the Ljuboten to see what was

18 going on."

19 [Interpretation] So my question now is: How far were you from the

20 location where the shelling of the village started from?

21 A. The shellings were two to three kilometres away from the road that

22 goes to the check-point to Malistena. As the crow flies it's -- I don't

23 know exactly. I didn't have anything to measure the distance with.

24 Q. And you agree with me that this is a rather longer distance?

25 A. If you go by the road, the distance -- it is far. The distance is

Page 3523

1 large. But as the crow flies, the distance is shorter. We usually take

2 the Ljubanci road to get there.

3 Q. At the moment when you saw the shelling starting from the

4 positions of the Macedonian army, neither you nor friends, Samedin

5 Rexhepi, Veap Aliu and Erhan Aliu, had any binoculars with you. Is that

6 correct?

7 A. No.

8 Q. In your statement that you gave to the Prosecutor in 2004 you

9 stated that you saw a uniformed man coming from the positions of the army

10 above the village and coming ten metres closer to the village and shooting

11 from a hand-grenade launcher towards you. Do you remember stating this?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In the additions to the statement that you gave to the Prosecutor

14 on the 5th of June, you stated that you saw a man shooting from

15 hand-grenade launcher but you could not see whether he was wearing a

16 uniform, considering that he was at quite a distance; is that correct?

17 A. I -- what I said was correct. He was far, I couldn't see very

18 well. The interpreters might have wrote that way.

19 Q. But you will agree with me that at such a distance it would have

20 been difficult for you to notice what the person held in his hands; is

21 that correct?

22 A. I haven't used arms, but he must have shot with something. He

23 must have had something in his hand, since he was shooting.

24 Q. So when you said that the person shot from a hand-held rocket

25 launcher, you actually did not see at all what was the person shooting

Page 3524

1 from, because from that distance you could not see the object that the

2 person would be shooting from; is that correct?

3 A. Once again, please.

4 Q. In your statement, and later in the additions and changes that you

5 gave to the Prosecutor, you stated that you saw that the person was

6 shooting from a hand-held rocket launcher. I'm putting to you that

7 considering the distance from which you were watching, you could not see

8 at all what was that person shooting with.

9 A. It is true that he shot. I don't know what he had in his hands.

10 You are saying "hand-held launchers." I don't know what kind of hand-held

11 launcher it was, but I know that the shell fell near to the place we

12 were. I could not see exactly what kind of uniform he was wearing,

13 whether he was a member of the army or the police.

14 Q. So if I understood you well, because of the fact that a grenade

15 fell, it was only your conjecture that the person was shooting with a

16 hand-held grenade launcher while you actually did not see the actual

17 person shooting; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You stated that the shooting on the 10th of August started very

20 early, early in the morning. Is that so?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you be more precise and say at what time the shooting

23 started on that morning?

24 A. I don't know the exact hour. No, I don't know.

25 Q. You did not know that when you were giving your statement to the

Page 3525

1 Prosecutor in October 2004. Did you know that or not?

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] A mistake. In October 2004 and

3 not 1994.

4 Q. Tell me, please, where were you on Saturday, August 11, 2001?

5 A. At home.

6 Q. Could you recall whether there was shelling on that date and from

7 which positions, if any?

8 A. The shellings had stopped a little bit. There were no such

9 intense shellings on Saturday, as far as I heard and saw while I was

10 sitting in the basement at home.

11 Q. And on Sunday, August 12th, you stated that you and 15 members of

12 your family were together in the same house; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Can you say when the shelling started on Sunday morning?

15 A. At about 8.00, 7.30. The police started shooting from Ljubanci at

16 the Meze Mahalla, the Meze area.

17 Q. Can you tell me, Mr. Rexhepi, how far is your house where you were

18 located from the church in Ljuboten?

19 A. As the crow flies, maybe 300, 400, 500 metres. I don't know

20 exactly. Maybe less. 200 to 300 metres.

21 Q. At a given moment you testified that you saw and you felt smoke,

22 because of which your father went outside to see what was taking place; is

23 that correct?

24 A. Yes, we went out together.

25 Q. So you and your father went out together to see what was going on;

Page 3526

1 is that correct?

2 A. What time do you refer to? Once again, if you can, please.

3 Q. Sunday morning. At one point in time, as you stated, smell of

4 fire and smoke was felt, and then I asked you is it correct that your

5 father then went out to see what was going on, and your answer was that

6 you went out together, with your father, to see what was going on. Is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So you went out immediately, both you and your father, to see what

10 was going on outside; is that correct?

11 A. Because behind the house was burning. There was a smell of

12 smoke. This is why we went out to see what was happening.

13 Q. So your father did not go out alone. He went out together with

14 you. Is that correct?

15 A. He went out first and then I went out. We took some water to --

16 to try to put down the fire.

17 Q. You also testified that you saw then some people who were wearing

18 masks and who were carrying automatic weapons but were also carrying --

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise for a moment.

20 Q. -- those gas tanks or these cylinders containing gas, those

21 containers, did you see that?

22 A. I have seen them when we went out to extinguish the fire. They

23 were quarrelling among each other. I couldn't see what was that gas can

24 or an automatic rifle or I don't know what he had. I just saw that there

25 was fire bursting so it was not set on fire with a lighter. It was set on

Page 3527

1 fire with something that would put the fire much quicker.

2 Q. And you described in detail that you saw one of those people

3 throwing that cylinder and setting it on fire on to the grass. So the

4 stable of Harun Rexhepi started burning immediately. Is that correct?

5 A. First, our house was burned, not Harun's house.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe this would be

7 the convenient time to take the recess.

8 JUDGE PARKER: We can do that now.

9 Do we understand that you will finish this afternoon and in time

10 for the other counsel to finish with this witness?

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I hope that I will finish in half

12 an hour.

13 JUDGE PARKER: That will leave only quarter an hour for

14 Mr. Apostolski and Ms. Regue.

15 So can you please look carefully in the break to be quicker.

16 Thank you.

17 We will resume at 1.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, before I proceed

22 with my cross-examination, I would like to address you with the following.

23 On page 48, lines 3 and 4, I apologised for the mistake I had made

24 by erroneously stating certain facts. It is not a problem for me to

25 apologise every time I make a mistake, and it is never my intention to

Page 3528

1 state the facts in a document erroneously.

2 However…I’m sorry, I’m being told that the interpretation is not

3 correct. What I want to say is that I will always apologise both to the

4 Court and the witness if I misquote something, and that it is never my

5 intention to misquote. However, when I checked the transcript and the

6 statement, I realised that, this time, I had quoted the witness correctly;

7 the only mistake I made was when I said that he had stated that in

8 paragraph 3, instead of paragraph 4 of his statement. Thank you.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, you probably remember that we spoke about how you saw

12 the first houses that were burning in the village. We spoke about this

13 before the break.

14 In the statement you gave to the OTP, you said that the persons

15 who carried these cylinders at one moment and, and I

16 quote ,"[In English] ... the men putting all of these gas cylinders into a

17 place where lots of hay had been collected by the village people. The men

18 opened the valve of the cylinder, set it on fire and then threw it to the

19 hay that immediately start to burn. That hay belonged to Harun Rexhepi."

20 Do you remember saying this in your statement? Do you remember?

21 A. Harun's house was not burned. My house, our house was burned.

22 Harun's house was burned later. I don't understand what you're putting to

23 me.

24 Q. During the preparations for your testimony you told the

25 Prosecutor "[In English] ... Rexhepi house after it had been burned down.

Page 3529

1 I didn't actually see this house burning on 12th August 2001."

2 [Interpretation] Did you say this?

3 A. I don't understand your question. Could you please clarify.

4 Q. In the preparations for your testimony yesterday, you told the

5 Prosecutor exactly what I just read out to you. That in fact you did not

6 see on the 12th of August, 2001 Harun's house burned down and that you

7 learned about this later after you were released. Did you say this

8 yesterday to the Prosecutor?

9 A. Harun's house was burned after our house was burned, when I was

10 released. Actually, while I was still in prison, I found out that Harun's

11 house was also burned down.

12 Q. In fact, you didn't see with your own eyes how these policemen set

13 these houses on fire; is that correct?

14 A. I saw them setting my house on fire. They were cursing in the

15 Macedonian language. They were shouting. And when we went out to put the

16 fire down, we heard this.

17 Q. Thank you. You said that later on with 100 other inhabitants of

18 Ljuboten you fled the village by hiding near the river; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When you arrived near the location called Kodra e Zajmit, you saw

21 a large number and one can say 100 of civilians between the road and

22 Radishan; is this correct?

23 A. These civilians were not on the road. They were outside the road,

24 if you can put the question clearly to me, please.

25 These civilians were on the fields, on Radishan's side.

Page 3530

1 Q. And these civilians were armed with different sorts of weapons,

2 with axes, rifles and so forth; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And if I'm to say to you that the police made maximum efforts to

5 prevent these civilians from coming nearer to the civilians of Ljuboten in

6 order to avoid a massacre, this would be correct, right?

7 A. The police committed the bloodshed. I didn't see the police

8 preventing them from anything.

9 Q. And if I were to tell you that the police fired in the air in

10 order to prevent these furious civilians from beating the civilians, this

11 would also be correct, right?

12 A. No. I don't know.

13 Q. However, amidst those policemen who prevented these civilians from

14 beating the locals from Ljuboten, was Ilija Sovkovski, from OVR Cair,

15 right? Is that correct?

16 A. When we were stopped at that check-point? I think you're not

17 clear on this.

18 Q. Did Ilija Sovkovski, together with other policemen, prevented the

19 civilians from beating or attacking the civilians from Ljuboten who were

20 moving along that road?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You testified that you were taken to the Butel, or Cair, police

23 station; is that correct? And that then you saw a large number of

24 civilians carrying Molotov cocktails and other types of weapons and the

25 police actually stopped them from attacking you. Is that correct?

Page 3531

1 A. I don't understand you. If you could put a short and clear

2 question to me, please.

3 Q. On the way to Butel, or Cair police station, you also saw a large

4 group of civilians, hundreds of civilians, carrying Molotov cocktails and

5 other weapons or instruments, and the police was making efforts to prevent

6 them from attacking you; is this correct?

7 A. I saw them on the way, in the van. I didn't see them at the

8 police station. I saw them on the way to the police station. I could see

9 this through a hole in the van, where we were. These were civilians from

10 Radishani; this I know.

11 Q. At the police station Butel, you -- your details were taken down

12 and nobody maltreated you there; is this correct?

13 A. No, this is not correct. We were beaten with everything they

14 could find, and I can still feel pain on my head due to those beatings by

15 the police in the Butel police station.

16 Q. In item 26 of your statement from October 2004 you said the

17 following, first on item 25 you said the following. It refers to the

18 Butel police station. "[In English] To a cell in the basement of the

19 station. It was normal cell and there were some other people in the cell

20 when we arrived. Finally we were some 50 or 60 people in the cell and I

21 remember that there was another cell full of the people as well."

22 Interpretation in item 26 you said: "[In English] Cell for more

23 than 3 hours and during this time, we were not beaten or kicked at. Some

24 of my relatives were in my cell; some in the other one."

25 [Interpretation] What you said before and -- differs from what you

Page 3532

1 are saying today. Is that correct, Mr. Rexhepi?

2 A. I told you the following. When -- on the way to the Butel police

3 station they beat us, then they put us in a cell. They beat us there as

4 well and while they were bringing other people, maybe they stopped beating

5 us for one hour or two hours and then they resumed. It was a room with 50

6 or 60 people in it. Some were beaten more than others.

7 Q. But, anyway, this differs from what you said to the investigator

8 in October 2004. Do you agree with me?

9 A. I don't know how well you understand me. I'm telling you what is

10 in my statement. And I'm telling you what actually happened.

11 Q. Is it correct that at the Karpos police station a paraffin test

12 was performed and that it came out positive?

13 A. This is not true. I was not subjected to this paraffin test.

14 They went -- they wanted me to sign. I lifted my hand and then one of the

15 policemen hit me on the head with his gun-barrel and that's where I

16 fainted.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could exhibit 55 be shown to the

18 witness, please. N002, P50 N002-0084-108. English version,

19 ET-N002-0191-1.

20 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, on the upper left-hand corner you can see that it

21 writes Republic of Macedonia, Ministry of Interior, criminalistic police.

22 There is a number of the document and the date, 14th of August, 2001.

23 Can you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In the middle of the document it writes: Subject, analysis of

Page 3533

1 traces of nitrite particles.

2 Can you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. The first paragraph says: "Regarding your letter with the

5 aforementioned number requesting to be determined whether on the submitted

6 pieces of foils with which traces for gunpowder tests were taken from the

7 hands of Qamuran Rexhepi, there are gunpowder particles present. We would

8 like to inform you of the following. Using the identification reagent for

9 nitrites, diphenylamine, analysis of the submitted foils has been

10 performed. The reaction used was positive on the foil of the right hand

11 on the aforementioned person."

12 Does this document refer to you, Mr. Rexhepi?

13 A. My name is mentioned in this document. But this is not true.

14 Q. You agree with me that in this -- at that day all the people who

15 did not have a positive test were released and sent home?

16 A. You mean for the others who didn't test positive? Yes. Those

17 were, but we didn't test positive either, and I wonder how can they test

18 positive or we test positive and they don't when we were all together.

19 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, you testified that after that you were taken to

20 court; is this correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The persons that took you to the court behaved well with you, and

23 you were even offered something to drink; is this correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And in the court, no one mistreated you; is this correct?

Page 3534

1 A. The person who took me there, no; but those from Bit Pazar police

2 station, yes. They wanted to beat me.

3 Q. And you earlier, Mr. Rexhepi, you did not mention to the

4 Prosecutor the persons that were from the Bit Pazar police station; is

5 this correct?

6 A. Which persons do you mean? Those who took me there were from

7 Karpos.

8 Q. Yes. But until yesterday, until before the preparations for this

9 hear -- testifying, you never mentioned that had you had seen people from

10 the Bit Pazar police station. Is this correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In your statement from October 2004 in item 32 you testified as

13 follows: "[In English] Brought me to the station were active police

14 officer and they even asked me if I would like to have something to drink

15 or eat. They didn't beat me at all but I could see that the others were

16 being brought to the court by police officer wearing mask and the mask men

17 maltreated everybody they brought to the court."

18 [Interpretation] Is this what you testified in 2004?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you only saw then some people wearing masks. Is that so?

21 A. I saw them in court. In court, yes.

22 Q. And that is exactly the opposite from what you stated today. That

23 there you saw and recognised the persons from the police station Bit

24 Pazar. Is that so?

25 A. I don't understand the question. Please put it clearly.

Page 3535

1 Q. What you said to the Prosecutor's investigator in October 2004

2 that you have seen only some people wearing masks, beating people brought

3 in is completely different from what you stated before this Court, when

4 you said that you recognised the policemen from the police station Bit

5 Pazar. Is that correct that these two statements are different, yes or

6 no?

7 A. Please more clearly and shorter questions, please. I can't

8 understand.

9 Q. Mr. Rexhepi, I kindly ask you just to answer with yes or a no: Is

10 what you stated to the Prosecutor in 2004 different from what you have

11 given as a testimony today before this Court?

12 A. I didn't call these persons -- I didn't -- I didn't report these

13 persons at that time because I was afraid. I reported them now.

14 Q. Thank you. You were interviewed by an investigating judge; is

15 that correct?

16 A. I didn't hear the question.

17 Q. When you entered the courtroom, you were interrogated by an

18 investigating judge; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the prosecutor, Vilma Ruskovska was there, as well as your

21 attorney, Fidovski Tahir; is that correct?

22 A. No, no, no.

23 Q. You were then informed about your rights, and after you gave your

24 statement you signed it; is that correct?

25 A. Once again, please. I didn't understand the question.

Page 3536

1 Q. After you gave the statement to the investigating judge, you

2 signed it personally.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I would like to ask that the witness is shown a part of the P52

5 exhibit that is at the same time part of the Exhibit P50 but in order to

6 facilitate the displaying of the document we have scanned it as 65 ter

7 1D458, 1D4238. Considering that this document was not translated, we then

8 organised for a draft, a working translation. The translation is 1D4239.

9 4238 is Macedonian and 4239 is English.

10 Mr. Rexhepi, you see the document issued by the investigating

11 judge of the Basic Court Skopje II, Jovan Lazarevski which appoints to you

12 a ex officio counsel on the date of 14th of August, 2001. The counsel

13 Fidovski Tahir is appointed for you. Can you see that document?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In the statement of 2004 in item 33, you stated the

16 following: "[In English] After one hour I was taken into an office. There

17 was a lawyer appointed by the court, but I said I don't want to have any

18 lawyers. The judge insisted that I must have one."

19 [Interpretation] Did you state this to the Prosecutor?

20 A. I didn't want a lawyer. No, this is not true. I didn't have a

21 lawyer at that time. I didn't have a private -- a personal lawyer. It

22 was the state that gave us a lawyer, that provided a lawyer to us.

23 Q. So if I understood well, you did have an attorney appointed for

24 you by the court, and it is not correct, as you said before, that you did

25 not have a defence counsel?

Page 3537

1 A. No.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender

3 this document that I indicated a decision for an ex officio defence

4 counsel appointment as Defence exhibit, since it was indeed part of P50,

5 but this is a part that is not translated, and in accordance with the

6 agreement with the Prosecutor, if within a large bundle of documents there

7 are some documents which were not translated by the Prosecutor, there is

8 an agreement that we could tender those documents as our own exhibits.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

10 MR. SAXON: Thank you.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is will be exhibit 1D102.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. And is it correct, Mr. Rexhepi, that your wife, Gjusler -- is that

14 the name of your wife?

15 A. Could you state the name more clearly?

16 Q. Gjusler Rexhepi.

17 A. Yes. Gjusler.

18 Q. Gjusler, I apologise. I apologise for mispronouncing.

19 Is it correct that your wife has chosen an attorney for you, apart

20 from this ex officio appointed attorney and actually those were the

21 attorneys Numan Limani and Slobodan Bogojevic. Are you aware of this

22 fact?

23 A. No. I have a father and a mother. My wife cannot go out and

24 search for a lawyer for me. I don't want such questions.

25 Q. I will ask that the witness is shown 65 ter 1D457, Macedonian

Page 3538

1 1D4236, English 1D4237.

2 Mr. Rexhepi, do you see the document composed by the attorney

3 Numan Limani on the 16th of August, 2001, and this is a power of attorney

4 document signed by your wife giving to Mr. Numan Limani and Slobodan

5 Bogojevic, attorneys from Skopje, the right to represent you. Is that

6 power of attorney certificate that was signed by your wife?

7 A. This is not correct.

8 Q. Thank you. Is it correct --

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, considering the

10 document I have in front of me, I would seek to tender it as a Defence

11 exhibit.

12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, there will be exhibit number 1D103.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Is it true, Mr. Rexhepi, that later you and several of the other

16 accused selected Dragan Vasilevski to be your attorney and he represented

17 you in the further course of the procedure?

18 A. While I was in prison someone came to ask me but he didn't say

19 whether he was an attorney or else. He just came to ask me whether I was

20 okay and that's all. He asked me nothing else. I don't know. I didn't

21 take an attorney to defend me.

22 Q. But you then authorised this attorney and he wrote a motion challenging

23 the form of the indictment against you, and you were then together appearing

24 before the court. In October 2001, you appeared before the trial chamber?

25 A. They took us to the court and returned us back after 10 to 15

Page 3539

1 minutes. We didn't speak anything there.

2 Q. When you were released from the remand prison when the president

3 Boris Trajkovski pardoned you, you never pressed charges against any of

4 the persons who allegedly ill-treated you during this period; is that

5 correct?

6 A. Once again, please.

7 Q. You never filed a criminal report against anyone who ill-treated

8 you; is that correct?

9 A. No, we didn't.

10 Q. You never asked your attorney to do it your behalf; is that

11 correct?

12 A. I didn't have a lawyer. Whom could I complain to?

13 Q. You never wanted to talk to the Macedonian police; is that

14 correct?

15 A. I don't understand the question.

16 Q. You discussed the events which had taken place only with the

17 international representatives, and you never wanted to give a statement to

18 the police; is that correct?

19 A. I didn't understand.

20 Q. Is it correct that you never went to the police or to the court to

21 report any of the persons or to discuss with the police what has happened

22 to you.

23 A. No.

24 Q. You did not trust the Macedonian police and this is why you only

25 discussed about these things with the representatives of the international

Page 3540

1 organisations and this Tribunal; is that correct?

2 A. I don't trust the police.

3 Q. Thank you very much.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have concluded my

5 cross-examination of this witness.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much. Clearly, we can't continue

7 and finish today.

8 So we must adjourn and we resume on Monday at 2.15.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Monday, the 16th day of July,

11 2007, at 2.15 p.m.