1 Tuesday, 28 August 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon. May I remind you, Witness, that
6 the affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence still applies.
7 And could I mention for everybody that apparently at the moment,
8 this is the only courtroom which has electrical power. We could lose it
9 at any time, so if things become very dark and quiet you will know what
11 Yes, Mr. Apostolski.
12 WITNESS: WITNESS M-051 [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Apostolski: [Continued]
15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
16 Good afternoon, Your Honours.
17 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
18 A. Good afternoon.
19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] If the witness could please be
20 shown 2D00-33 located in 339 -- my apologies, that the witness be shown
21 2D00-339 located in tab 1 of the binder which is in front of the witness.
22 Q. Can you see the upper left corner, it is the state secret and
23 counterintelligence unit from UBK Prilep.
24 A. Yes, I see.
25 Q. From the 22nd of July and it is stated: "Report of a person who
1 collaborates with UBK and that states: "Source Karatic" and follows
2 source is a collaborative source of UBK that is placed for gathering
3 operative information from the point of view of UBK, sector 2. He
4 continually and punctually and realistically presents factual information
5 of interest to UBK. Later it follows: "The information was received on
6 20th July, 2001." It follows: "The presented information concerned the
7 subsequent development of the security situation with a possible new focus
8 in the area near Skopje."
9 On page 2, paragraph 5 it states: "According to the statement of
10 high official of El Hilal as a new source and potential fortification is
11 considered this village of Ljuboten in the area of Skopje which was on the
12 hill of Skopska Crna Gora mountain. This was of importance to them
13 because of logistics and linking of actions between the Kumanovo and
14 Tetovo region." Do you see this before you?
15 A. I read it.
16 Q. Does this information correspond which you as an (redacted)
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If the word (redacted)
20 THE INTERPRETER: And if the interpreter could ask the witness in
21 the meantime to pause before answering the question.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm aware of this information.
23 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you. If the witness that this be accepted as evidence?
25 A. I can clarify if I need to clarify something in relation to this
2 Q. Please.
3 A. From 16th of June and until the 10th of August, or somewhere
4 around that, 12th of August as well, especially on the 16th and 20th of
5 June, 22nd and 28th, we had encountered NLA patrols and we often exchanged
6 fire with them, or, rather, we would fire at them and they would fire at
8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if this document
9 could be received as evidence, document 2D00339.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I am able to clarify it still
11 further, if you wish, where were the locations where we met them.
12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Please continue.
14 A. That is the location Ramno, Belgian camp, Crn Kamen, Dravec,
15 Jacmeniste, and other locations.
16 Q. Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE PARKER: The document will be received.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 2D36, Your Honours.
19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] May the witness please be shown
20 65 ter 2D00335, located in tab 3 of the binder. This is a report of the
21 BBC of 11th June, 2001, entitled: Macedonia confronts the threats to --
22 to -- defies threats to capital.
23 I will read part of the report because the same is in the English
25 The underlined paragraph 3, Commander Hoxha is being cited who
1 says the following: "I will begin to attack the police stations and the
2 airport, the government and the parliament. Everything I can do with our
3 120-millimetre mortars."
4 Does this correspond to your knowledge?
5 A. It is correct. This does correspond to my knowledge. Commander
6 Bushi was supposed to be the one firing but he could not do it. He was
7 afraid that the range of the mortars would be insufficient.
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 A. He was afraid that he wouldn't be able to hit the government and
10 then the shells would impact on Gazi Baba settlement.
11 Q. Where did Bushi plan to fire from?
12 A. I thought that it was somewhere from within the vicinity of
13 Matejce village or between Ljuboten and Matejce, up on the mountain
14 Skopska Crna Gora.
15 Q. If the terrorist group ONA took the village of Ljuboten, would it
16 have been possible to shoot from the position of Ljuboten to Skopje with
18 A. Yes, of course. One could fire at Skopje, because the mortars
19 have a range between six and eight kilometres, and the distance as the
20 crow flies between Ljuboten and Skopje is of that range.
21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if -- I would seek
22 to tender this document in evidence.
23 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 2D37, Your Honours.
25 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] If the witness may now be shown
1 65 ter number 2D00336 in tab 4 of the binder. It is a BBC report of the
2 10th of June, 2001, entitled: "NO rebels threaten Macedonia's capital."
3 The report begins, and I quote: "The leader of the ethnic
4 Albanian rebels in Macedonia has threatened to attack the capital Skopje,
5 unless government forces stop bombing the villages under the control of
6 the rebels. Commander Hoxha, as he is known, heads a guerilla force now
7 just kilometres from Skopje. He said they'd use their mortars to hit the
8 city and its airport, an oil refinery and a motor way vital to NATO-led
9 forces in Kosovo."
10 Does this correspond to your knowledge?
11 A. Yes, this is all true. This is why the 16th Brigade was deployed,
12 in the area of the airport, the refinery and the main motor way.
13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender
14 this document in evidence.
15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 2D38, Your Honours.
17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] If the witness may now be shown
18 document 65 ter 969.5 in tab 5 of the binder.
19 Q. Do you see this document in front of you?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. In the left corner it says: "Republic of Macedonia, Ministry of
22 Defence, security and intelligence sector," dated 13th of August, 2001.
23 It is about a daily report for the period of the 12th and 13th of August,
25 Are these regular operative intelligence information and data
1 which are prepared in the sector for security and intelligence at the
2 Ministry of Defence?
3 A. That is true. That is the format. And that is the document that
4 is received once a report -- when a report is sent to the security sector.
5 Q. If could you please turn to page 3 where it is stated: "In the
6 Skopje region."
7 Do you see item 3 where it is stated: "From the Skopje region."
8 A. I see it. Yes, I see a paragraph 3.
9 Q. At the top it states: "Gezim Ostreni has issued an order to the
10 114th Brigade to initiate attacks on Skopje and to start activities on the
11 security forces of the Republic of Macedonia in the areas of the villages
12 of Ljubanci and Rastak. Xhavid Asani confirmed that he is ready to begin
13 the attack. Subsequently, it was ordered (agreed) to begin with the
14 attack on Skopje."
15 Does this passage which I have read to you correspond to your
16 understanding and knowledge?
17 A. Yes, I had that information as well. I received the information
18 and also this conversation between them was recorded and then it was
19 published in the daily newspaper, Dnevnik.
20 Q. If you could now look further down on the same page, beginning
21 with: "In the village Aracinovo." It is the sixth paragraph.
22 A. I see it.
23 Q. It reads: "In the village of Aracinovo, these days about 100
24 terrorists have entered into the village in -- in the direction of the
25 villages Nikustak, Orlanca and Gorno Mojance and village Aracinovo.
1 Terrorists movements were spotted on the routes Aracinovo-Stracinci and
2 Gorno Mojance-Stracinci. They are most likely preparing to attack the
3 security forces in the area of the village of Ljuboten."
4 Does this also correspond to your information at that period of
6 A. Yes, we were aware of this information and the people were there,
7 these persons, and you must know then that afterwards an action to seize
8 Aracinovo followed.
9 Q. If you could please go one line down where it says: "In 1540
11 Can you see that?
12 A. Yes, I do.
13 Q. It is -- it reads: "At 1540 hours, terrorist attacked the
14 security forces of the Republic of Macedonia in the area of the village of
15 Ljubanci. In addition to firing weapons, mortars were also used."
16 Do you see this before you?
17 A. I see it and I read it, so please continue.
18 Q. Does this correspond to your knowledge about the developments and
19 the attack of the village of Ljubanci by terrorists in the period of 12th
20 of August, 2001?
21 A. It is correct. We were attacked. A mortar battery had fired on
22 us, and, as I have mentioned the last time, that one of those shells hit
23 me. Actually, 100 or 200 metres away from me it impacted.
24 Q. Thank you very much.
25 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender
1 this document in evidence.
2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 2D39, Your Honours.
4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] If the witness may now be shown
5 65 ter 969, item 8, in tab 6 of the binder. This is a document of the
6 Prosecution for which the Defence has prepared a working translation.
7 My apologies. I believe in the meantime, Your Honours, the
8 original translation has also arrived, because I can see it on the
9 electronic court.
10 Q. Do you see in the upper left corner "Republic of Macedonia,
11 Ministry of Defence, sector for security and intelligence," dated 9 August
12 2001, and then it follows: "Daily report for the period of 8th and 9th of
13 August." "8th and 9th of August, 2001."
14 A. Yes, I see.
15 Q. On page 4, if page 4 may be shown.
16 In paragraph 3 where it says: "The other parts of the Republic."
17 A. Yes, I see.
18 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] If we could see this in the
19 English version on the previous page.
20 One page further up in the English version. Fine. Thank you.
21 Q. In item 3 it says: "From the other parts of the republic," if
22 could you please look in item 11, line 6, beginning with: "In this
24 Do you see this in front of you? The sentence which begins
25 with --
1 A. Yes, I see it, fine.
2 Q. "In that context, it was planned to undertake combat activities,
3 actually shelling of the cities of Skopje and Kumanov after August 3rd,
4 2001 as well as expansion of armed activities of the so-called NLA in the
5 Kicevo, Gostivar, Debar and Struga region. For that aim, members of the
6 so-called NLA as of recently have been supplied with new quantities of
7 modern arms of western European and American origin."
8 Does this correspond to your information of that period?
9 A. This is correct. For the Gostivar, Skopje and Kumanovo region,
10 for the Struga region, this is not under my competency and I'm not so
11 sure. I do not know much about this. As for the Gostivar region, I know
12 there was a group noted in and on Staraplanina and also which acted in
13 Karpalak Korita in this areas.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I seek to tender
16 this document in evidence.
17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 2D40, Your Honours.
19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] If the witness may now be shown
20 65 ter 2D00337, tab 7. This is a transcript from the video interview of
21 Commander Hoxha given for the Tetovo television Koha [phoen] dated 27th
22 July, 2001, received from the Prosecution as materials linked with the
23 NLA, received from the Macedonian government and has an ERN number
24 N001-3547. It has a working translation done, prepared by the Defence.
25 Q. The document reads: "The Albanian fighters of the NLA are sending
1 one more ultimatum to the Macedonian authorities and warn that if until
2 the night the army does not stop its attacks, the NLA will prepare to
3 attack the inside of Skopje. The news has been confirmed for the agency
4 ANSA from the leader of the fighters known under the name Commander Hoxha.
5 He, by telephone, reminded that tonight on midnight ends the cease-fire
6 declared 15 days ago by the fighters."
7 I quote: "If the attacks do not stop, from that moment on, we
8 will stand ready to attack and we will do this in the capital. The
9 exponent of the fighters that until yesterday was in Aracinovo zone that
10 had later been abandoned by the fighters based on one agreement denied by
11 many Macedonians, confirmed that at the moment he is in Skopje. I am in
12 the capital in command of two battalions dressed in civilian, he stated,
13 and we are in the suburbs populated by Albanians. After midnight, we
14 stand ready to perform an action to defend our people. Analogue claim
15 sent by another leader of the fighters known under the pseudonym Sokoli.
16 Full stop. On midnight the cease-fire ends, he threatened, and if the
17 Macedonians continue to shoot, we will proceed with our plans."
18 Does -- did you have knowledge the Commander Hoxha was in Skopje
19 with two battalions dressed in civilians and that they are preparing to
20 attack Skopje?
21 A. Here in communiques of this kind and threats, we were able to see
22 on numerous times on television and radio and I had heard that they were
23 in Skopje. And in addition to Skopje, I heard that a larger group from
24 Vaksince was also in Kumanovo. This is information which we also received
25 in this period of time. And lately, in Skopje, on some television
1 stations in a debate programme, they themselves confirmed that they were
2 there in Kumanovo dressed in civilian clothing and so forth, and in
4 Q. If the witness may please be shown B 354, this is a video-clip
5 from the scene after the shooting which led to the killing of
6 Commander Teli, commander of the terrorist group infiltrated in Skopje to
7 carry out diversion and terrorist activities.
8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] If could you please look at the
9 video-clip before you and then we will comment on it.
10 [Videotape played]
11 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] If we could please stop here.
12 Q. Do you see that they are dressed in civilian clothing, the persons
13 who are depicted here?
14 A. Yes, I see that they are in civilian clothing.
15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] If we could please continue with
16 the clip.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] This is fine. Thank you.
19 Q. Do you know where Commander Teli was killed in Skopje?
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. Can you please tell us?
22 A. In the settlement of Gazi Baba which borders with the municipality
23 of Centar in Skopje, this is after Bit Pazar towards Jaja Pasa. This is
24 well-known streets. This is very close.
25 Q. Thank you. Is it true that this is in the immediate vicinity, if
1 not in the centre of Skopje?
2 A. Yes, 300 to 500 metres from the centre, from the municipality of
3 Centar in Skopje. This is the centre of Skopje.
4 Q. Does this confirm the statement -- my apologies, in the
5 interpretation it is stated 300 through 3500 while the witness said 300 to
6 350 metres?
7 A. My apologies.
8 Q. Please go on.
9 A. I would like to clarify, this is bordering to the municipality of
10 Skopje, 300 to 500 metres is the main market of Bit Pazar.
11 Q. Does this confirm the statement of Commander Hoxha that in Skopje,
12 there are two battalions wearing civilian clothes?
13 A. Yes, I think this confirms this.
14 Q. Is it correct that you had information that members of the NLA in
15 Ljuboten were sent reinforcements from Matejce?
16 A. I had such information, correct.
17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown now
18 the document 65 ter number 969.17, which is found now in tab 8 of the
19 binder. And the Defence organised a working translation, 2D00341.
20 Your Honours, while we're waiting for the document to be displayed
21 on the screen, I would seek to tender the document before in evidence. It
22 was --
23 JUDGE PARKER: That is tab 7?
24 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 2D41, Your Honours.
2 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since we have a
3 hard copy, we have it in front of us, all of us, it is in tab 8, and
4 considering that the e-court can't load the evidence, the exhibit, may the
5 witness please be shown it -- okay, it is here now. I meant to resume my
7 Q. It says: "Log of data received" and they were received from the
8 sector for defence -- for security and intelligence of the Ministry of
9 Defence. And it reads here, page 8, N002-4321-0129. And the English
10 translation, page 2.
11 Do you see now the line that starts with the number 13? That is
12 page 8 of the Macedonian version.
13 A. I see it now.
14 Q. It reads here in the line that starts with the number 13, the date
15 is August 10, at 1655, and in the same line it continues, G2. "An
16 information was received that a group of around 100 persons should start
17 moving from the region of the village of Matejce towards the villages of
18 Ljubanci, Ljuboten, Brodec, and Kodra Fura, with the task to attack the
19 check-points of the defence security forces."
20 Do you see this in front of you?
21 A. I see it and I read it. It is fine.
22 Q. Does it correspond to your knowledge?
23 A. Yes. That information, but this paragraph should be read fully,
24 this number 13. Everything in it is correct. There it continues. I
25 don't know whether this information is relevant to you, but this is an
1 information that we had at the time.
2 Q. Very well. Thank you. Were you aware of these movements of NLA
3 from Matejce towards Ljuboten and Ljubanci?
4 A. Yes, we had the information. It is correct.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
7 now 65 ter -- I apologise.
8 Your Honours, I seek to tender the previous document in evidence.
9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 2D42, Your Honours.
11 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown now,
12 please, document 65 ter 745, which is now in tab 9 of the binder. This is
13 a statement of Xhezair Shaqiri, alias Commander Hoxha. This is the person
14 that we spoke about previously. And if we could read now from paragraph
15 1, the middle of it. That is at page 1.
16 Could we please show page 1? Could we now go to page 2, please.
17 Yes, thank you.
18 In paragraph 1, in the middle of it, you can see that it says:
19 "During the period August 9 to 12, during the events in the area of
20 Ljuboten, I was inspector within the command of all NLA fighters --
21 A. Brigades.
22 Q. "Brigades of the NLA that were deployed at the area of Ljuboten at
23 that time."
24 Further on, in paragraph 4, at the bottom of it, do you see the
25 paragraph 4? Do you see the sentence in the middle, starting with the
1 word "immediately." "I took the car immediately and accompanied by one
2 person, I went towards the monastery. We, because of the terrain we left
3 the vehicle and proceeded on foot towards Ljuboten in order to inspect the
4 situation. On our way, we met some NLA soldiers and I ordered them to
5 withdraw because I knew it was impossible to enter Ljuboten because of all
6 the check-points in the area.
7 "When we came at about the 600 to 800 metres from the Macedonian
8 positions at Ljuboten, I saw that it was very risky to take those
9 positions there, since we were amidst cross-fire between two Macedonian
10 forces groups above Ljuboten. The village was completely surrounded by
11 the Macedonian forces. It was impossible to enter it without too many
12 casualties. The terrain is very flat with some low vegetation. We heard
13 shooting and shelling from heavy artillery. There was also small arms and
14 heavy arms fire. I don't know how many shells fell, but there were many
15 of them. Ten minutes later, the enemy forces discovered our positions and
16 they started shelling at us. We could not see Ljuboten from the position
17 we held at that time because of the mortar fire. We were informed that
18 eight NLA soldiers were wounded."
19 Does this correspond to the information you had, that there were
20 NLA reinforcements that attempted to enter the village of Ljuboten and
21 joined NLA soldiers that were already inside the village of Ljuboten?
22 A. It is correct.
23 Q. Is it --
24 A. Yes, the information is correct, and I know precisely, I remember
25 the time when we shelled at them, when they wanted to join those in
2 Q. Is it correct that the reinforcements would have entered the
3 village of Ljuboten had the Macedonian army failed to shell them?
4 A. It is correct. We discovered them and then we shelled at them and
5 we made them return.
6 Q. So this confirms. Had the Commander Hoxha entered the village and
7 stationed 120-millimetre mortars at Ljuboten, it would have been easier
8 for him then to attack Skopje. Is this correct?
9 A. It is correct. He would have been able then to shell Skopje,
11 Q. Did the intelligence data come to the commander in chief,
12 President Trajkovski?
13 A. I'm sure that the information reached the president of the state
14 via the unit commanders and the sector for security and intelligence.
15 Q. Are you aware that that NLA commander was the leader of the
16 defence of Aracinovo village towards the end of June? I'm now speaking
17 about the Commander Hoxha?
18 A. It is correct. I heard that he was the commander, but I haven't
19 seen him so. I don't want to make it appear that I have seen him. Since
20 I did not participate in those fights there.
21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may we move briefly
22 into private session.
23 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 4216-4219 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
10 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Do you see in the upper left corner, Republic of Macedonia,
12 Ministry of Defence, General Staff, of the army of the Republic of
13 Macedonia. Date is August 12, 2001.
14 A. I see it.
15 Q. Below that: "Regular report on the situation from 1700 hours on
16 August 11 to 1700 hours on August 12th, 2001."
17 At page 2, could you now turn there, at the bottom, and in the
18 English version it would be towards middle of the third page, and there is
19 a subtitle, Movements and Regrouping.
20 Do you see it in front of you?
21 A. Yes, yes, I do.
22 Q. "At 1540, 120-millimetre mortar was fired Ljubotenski Bacila
23 towards the village of Ljubanci, and from the Dzafa region towards the
24 police check-point in the village of Brnjarci. Between 1600 and 1640
25 hours, shots were fired from the region of Bara towards the vineyards in
1 the village of Ajvatovce [phoen]. In the region of the village of
2 Ljuboten, there were movements and activities of the sabotage terrorist
3 groups against our forces and MOI forces in the regions of the villages
4 ever Ljubanci and Rastak.
5 "Fortification of acquired positions. The sabotage terrorist
6 groups have consolidated, fortified and they have taken control of
7 residential and other buildings in the village of Ljuboten."
8 Do you see this?
9 A. I see it and I'm aware of it.
10 Q. So you are --
11 A. I'm aware of it all.
12 Q. So you're aware of it and you can confirm its veracity?
13 A. Yes, I confirm 100 per cent accurate.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could I now seek to tender this
16 document in evidence.
17 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 2D43, Your Honours.
19 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown now 65
20 ter 969, item 16, which is in tab 12 of the binder.
21 Q. Do you see in the upper left corner, Republic of Macedonia, sector
22 for security and intelligence. The date is 13th of August 2001?
23 A. I see it.
24 Q. Then a daily report for the period August 10 and 11, 2001.
25 A. I see it.
1 Q. At page 2, paragraph 4, from the bottom in both Macedonian and
2 English versions it says: "On August 10, 2001 at 1530, Mirkovci police
3 station patrol that was stationed above the village of Ljuboten and the
4 authorised -- actually, the authorised officer Todorov Dusan informed us
5 that in the village of Ljuboten, at the stretch from the school to the
6 graveyards from the left-hand side of the road in the houses of
7 Zendelovski families, they noticed three persons wearing black uniforms
8 and armed with automatic weapons."
9 Is this correct, and you started saying something in relation to
10 this yesterday. Does this correspond to this?
11 A. Yes. It does correspond with my notebook that was copied and that
12 we have seen here yesterday, and the time is noted and the date and the
13 place where these three persons wearing black uniforms and armed with
14 automatic weapons were seen.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I now seek to
17 tender this document in evidence.
18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 2D44, Your Honours.
20 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] May the witness now be shown 65
21 ter 00942, tab 13.
22 Q. Do you see this in front of you?
23 A. Yes, I see it.
24 Q. Do you see in the upper corner, Republic of Macedonia, Ministry of
25 Defence, military post-code 2803-01, Skopje?
1 A. Yes, a well-known post-code.
2 Q. To the cabinet of the minister of defence, subject, report,
4 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] If we could see at the bottom.
5 Q. Was prepared by the head of the chief staff of the army of the
6 Republic of Macedonia, General Stamboliski. Is it correct that at that
7 time he was the head Chief of Staff?
8 A. Yes, this is it what he was.
9 Q. Connection -- if you could see under the sub-section, subject
10 there is connection request from the Ministry of Internal Affairs number
11 13858-1, dated 27th of October, 2003. In it, in connection with item 13,
12 do you see the paragraph 2, "In connection to item 13, we inform you that
13 on the 12th of August, 2001, a fire was opened towards the positions of
14 ARM located near the village of Ljubanci from 82-millimetre mortars of
15 terrorists positioned in Echmeniste area (TT 1470) and 12 projectiles
16 exploded at our positions."
17 At the same time, fire was opened from snipers, machine-guns and
18 other automatic weapons from Ljuboten village towards the positions of ARM
19 and during this it was noticed that the terrorists were mainly
20 concentrated in the area of the village mosques. In order to neutralize
21 the firing positions of the terrorists during 12th of August, 2001, we
22 fired from 120-millimetre mortar, firing all together 16 projectiles. Of
23 these, three fell outside the village of Ljuboten. Shot from the cannons,
24 76-millimetre cannon B towards the firing position, 16 projectiles were
25 fired. The above-mentioned fact is registered at the military log of the
1 3rd Guardist Battalion and the written report of the commander of the
2 120-millimetre mortar battery is attached to this letter."
3 Is this document in correspondence with your knowledge?
4 A. The document does correspond. The information are 100 per cent
5 correct because they are from my region and most probably they are derived
6 and obtained from me.
7 Q. So this document is signed by the Chief of Staff of the Macedonian
8 army. You have confirmed this. Can you tell us in the upper left corner
9 you see 25-11-2003. And above it a number.
10 A. Strictly confidential, the number 01-6721-1.
11 Q. Does this mean that this document was prepared on the 25 of 11?
12 A. Yes, but it should not have been listed as confidential.
13 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document in
15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 2D45, Your Honours.
17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation]
18 Q. When my colleague Residovic was questioning you yesterday, you
19 responded that the battery at part of the Guardist Battalion does not have
20 mortar grenades which exploded on a time interval. Is it correct that the
21 battery does not have -- did not have available mines which explode ten
22 metres above ground before they fall to the ground?
23 A. I responsibly respond that this battery did not have such
24 ammunition. These grenades are not used in mortar -- this is artillery.
25 Q. In your report prepared by you, you mentioned that the group was
1 led by the owner and head of Kometa, Mr. Johan Tarculovski.
2 If the witness could please be shown 2D333. This is evidence
3 not -- not in the binder obtained from the central registry of the
4 Republic of Macedonia at the request of the Defence of Johan Tarculovski.
5 In the central registry of the Republic of Macedonia maintains
6 registries of companies in the Republic of Macedonia. Therefore, the
7 defence prepared a working translation of the -- of these documents.
8 If the witness could please be shown page 2 of this document.
9 Can you see in front of you that this is a decision of Basic Court
10 I in Skopje, of 1st August 2001, that the trade register, Register Court
11 enlists expansion of the company for -- the company for services Kometa,
12 import/export, street number Klenovac 29, A, Skopje?
13 A. Yes, I see and I read.
14 Q. Can you confirm that this is Court registration of a trade
16 A. Yes, this is so.
17 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can we please see page 1 of the
19 I apologise, can we see page 5 of the document.
20 Q. In the middle, you can see that company and headquarters of the
21 company or other subject of entrance is the company for trade and
22 services, Kometa, number 1, Zoran Jovanovski, DOOEL import/export, street
23 Klenovac, number 29A, Skopje. Do you see this. Number 29A, Skopje. Do
24 you see this?
25 A. I see it. I'm reading it.
1 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
2 page 6.
3 Q. Do you see name and seat of the subject of entrance? This is a
4 company for trade and services Kometa, number 1, Zoran Jovanovski, DOOEL
5 import/export, street Klenovac, number 29A, number of registration in the
6 registration court and its seat. It's followed by a line of numbers, as
7 well as the date, 10th February 1999. And below it, under numeral 1, name
8 and seat, and -- or address of founder, investor; and next to it, number
9 and date of the founding act of 21st of December, 1998?
10 A. Six --
11 Q. I see eight.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. And left of it under name and seat of founder, it reads: Zoran
14 Jovanovski from Skopje, street Klenovac, number 29A, with his number of ID
15 card. Do you see in front of this?
16 A. I see it and I read it.
17 Q. This is a document which shows the owner of the company for trade
18 and services, Kometa, number 1, Skopje and the person in question is
19 Zoran Jovanovski. Do you see this in front of you?
20 A. Yes, I see it.
21 Q. Can now the witness please be shown page 7 of this document.
22 Can you see in the upper half that this is the company for trade
23 and services, Kometa, number 1, Zoran Jovanovski, and further in the
24 middle of this piece of paper, Zoran Jovanovski, manager without
25 restriction, limitation of authorisation. This is a person who is, in
1 effect, the founder and the manager of the company. Do you see this?
2 A. I see it, and I read it.
3 Q. Could you concur with me that Johan Tarculovski, having seen these
4 documents, that is he neither the owner nor the manager of Kometa?
5 A. Allow me to clarify. The information were obtained from -- very
6 quickly. The data were not confirmed because they were obtained from 10
7 to 12. The report was written from 1600 to 1800 hours. Therefore, I
8 don't know whether he was manager or not. This was indicating persons who
9 were there.
10 On the basis of this, I'm able to conclude that is he not the
12 Q. Nor the founder.
13 A. Not manager neither founder. He may have been there. This is a
14 valid document.
15 Q. Could the person which provided you with this information have
16 thought about the owner of Kometa but had given you the name of
17 Johan Tarculovski by mistake?
18 A. The source of this information was not sure, was not reliable. He
19 was an ordinary soldier, a reservist, so he should not play much a role in
21 Q. Thank you very much.
22 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have no further
23 questions for this witness.
24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much, Mr. Apostolski.
25 Ms. Motoike, is it that you would think this a convenient time to
1 break or how is it?
2 MS. MOTOIKE: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.
4 We will break now and resume at a quarter past 4.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 3.41 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.
7 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Apostolski.
8 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise. I
9 would like to tender the documents, 2D3 and 2D2, received in evidence.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please repeat the numbers of
11 the documents. The interpreters did not get them.
12 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] They are not in today's binder.
13 They were in the e-court. This is the court registration of the security
14 company Kometa. The witness was shown these documents.
15 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received, if the court officer has
16 recovered them.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit 2D46, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.
19 Yes, Ms. Motoike.
20 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honours. Good afternoon.
21 Re-examination by Ms. Motoike:
22 Q. Witness, you were shown reports today regarding information that
23 two NLA battalions were present in the Skopje area, planning an attack on
24 Skopje. And for reference, I believe it is also referred to in exhibit
25 that has been admitted as 2D0041. It is also located at page 11 of
1 today's transcript.
2 Did these two brigades, Witness, ever launch an attack to conquer
3 Skopje, to your knowledge?
4 A. These two battalions that we keep mentioning belong to the 113th
5 Brigade. Maybe they did not attack Skopje directly, but they had planted
6 mines. They also planted mines on railways, and they made threats which
7 showed that they were the risk towards the city and its vicinity.
8 Q. How many soldiers would you say would be in these two battalions
9 of the NLA?
10 A. In my opinion, our battalions differed in format. They have more
11 members while theirs, I would say, the -- both battalions would be 200 to
12 250 members strong.
13 Q. To your knowledge, did anyone -- after this report came in, did
14 anyone ever locate this particular battalion's stash of weapons and
16 A. I sent the report on the 14th of August. There is a written
17 document that weapons and ammunition, food, equipment, maps, maps of the
18 city of Skopje were found, sleeping bags as well, ammunition.
19 Q. And on page 29 of today's transcript you were also asked about a
20 company called Kometa and whether Johan Tarculovski was the manager or the
21 founder. And you said in the transcript that Johan Tarculovski may have
22 been there. How do you know Johan Tarculovski was associated with Kometa
23 back in 2001?
24 A. His connection to Kometa, in my mind, is that I was told that this
25 was person was employed by Kometa. Some of the people who were at
1 positions or in the command mentioned that he was the boss of Kometa. But
2 what he meant by that word, "boss," it was obvious today that he was not
3 the boss, and I didn't have time then to verify the information.
4 Q. And you reference some of the people at the positions. So more
5 than one person told you this?
6 A. I'm not sure about this, whether it was one or two people, I'm not
8 Q. Along that line you also indicated --
9 MS. MOTOIKE: Your Honours, could we go into private session,
11 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 4231-4235 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
8 MS. MOTOIKE:
9 Q. Witness, you have before you a hard copy of the document that's
10 displayed in front of you in English. That copy is in the Macedonian
11 language. And at the beginning at the very top it says: "Factiva," and
12 in the right corner it says: "Dow Jones and Reuters." It is entitled:
13 "NATO and the EU speak peace, Macedonians feel on the edge of war."
14 Right below that it says 2 June 2001, and then below that it says: "The
16 Do you see that?
17 A. Yes, I see it. I can read it.
18 Q. And if I could direct your attention to, I believe, the bottom of
19 page two of the Macedonian version, which is the bottom of page 1 of the
20 English. There's a sentence that begins: "If the Tigers." Page 2 of the
21 Macedonian version, the last paragraph. Actually, the last sentence of
22 the last paragraph on page 2 of the Macedonian.
23 Do you see the sentence, I'll trade to you: "If the Tigers had
24 not been sent in or so the president was warned by hard-line Slav" --
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [No interpretation]
1 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We just received the document and
3 I see that some groups going by the name of Lions are mentioned here. The
4 witness never testified about --
5 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic, we will hold your comment until the
6 witness has dealt with the matter. Thank you.
7 Yes, Ms. Motoike.
8 MS. MOTOIKE:
9 Q. The sentence, as I was reading says: "By hard-line Slav
10 Macedonians then other feral creatures might have gone to work, including
11 a group of toughs called the Lions who threatened to vent their wrath on
12 ethnic Albanians in Skopje, the capital."
13 And it actually continues on to the 3rd page in Macedonian for
14 your version. Do you see that, Witness?
15 A. No, I don't see it.
16 MS. MOTOIKE: Perhaps with the usher's assistance, it's
17 actually -- I can point out the particular line in the Macedonian version
18 that corresponds to the English. It's the very last sentence of page 2 on
19 the Macedonian.
20 THE WITNESS: Okay.
21 [Interpretation] I apologise, could you please repeat what you
22 meant to say with this sentence in case the Tigers were not sent in?
23 Q. The sentence says: "In case -- if the Tigers had not been sent in
24 or so the president was warned by hard-line Slav Macedonians, then other
25 feral creatures might have gone to work, including a group of toughs
1 called the Lions who threatened to vent their wrath on ethnic Albanians in
2 Skopje, the capital?
3 And I just need to ask you, Witness, first of all, do you see that
5 A. I see it, but you are not reading it well. The interpreter is not
6 interpreting it as it is. Let him interpret the words literally as they
7 are in the text.
8 Q. Well, the gist of my question actually is, that this particular
9 article refers to a group called the Lions. Do you agree that that isn't
10 indicated in the Macedonian version?
11 A. I don't agree. I don't agree.
12 Q. Is there a reference, Witness, to Lions in the reference that you
13 have in the Macedonian version?
14 A. They are mentioned at the end.
15 Q. And do you see, then, that this reference to Lions was back on 2
16 June 2001, which is the date this article was actually publicised. Do you
17 see that?
18 A. I see it.
19 Q. And I guess my question to you is: To your knowledge, then,
20 was -- even though the Lions were not established until the fall of 2001,
21 which is what you testified to yesterday, were the Lions or a group called
22 the Lions, operating on more of an informal level prior to the actual
23 establishment of this group in the fall of 2001, to your knowledge?
24 A. As far as I know, since I'm from the army originally not from the
25 police, so let's distinguish between things. The Lions, as a formation,
1 when they were first established with their equipment, with their Command
2 Staff, with their weapons, I'm not sure whether it was 2nd of June or 2nd
3 of October. But if someone is mentioning them, let them explain when were
4 they established, what was their armament, et cetera. And what I know is
5 that the Lions existed. I'm not denying that. They participated in the
6 battle near Tetovo. Let me not name the villages where they participated
7 now. Some members of the Lions were killed, but the date of
8 establishment, please don't take my word for it. I don't know when they
9 were established.
10 JUDGE PARKER: Are you moving on?
11 MS. MOTOIKE: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic, is there something further? It was
13 important, I felt, that we hear the witness before anything else. Yes.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I'm fully aware that
15 you wanted to hear the response of the witness and that the Court has the
16 right to interrupt me when I'm trying to object to a question asked by my
17 learned colleague.
18 But I wish to say that this entire sequence of questions was
19 misleading the witness, and I wish this to be recorded, since everything
20 that was said in this article and that was shown to the Prosecutor's
21 witness, Peter Bouckaert was about a paramilitary group. And the
22 testimony of this witness was related to the units of the Ministry of the
23 Interior. Before asking the question of this witness, these facts needed
24 to be indicated to the witness, so that the witness is not misled in his
25 testimony and due to these reasons, Your Honours, I believe that it is
1 important that this objection of mine is recorded in the transcript and
2 this is why I repeated it before you.
3 Thank you.
4 JUDGE PARKER: The transcript has recorded it.
5 Yes, Ms. Motoike.
6 MS. MOTOIKE: Does the Court wish me to respond or should I move
8 JUDGE PARKER: The Court is interested in the evidence of the
9 witnesses and the documents, not in what counsel make of them. That's why
10 I had to interrupt Ms. Residovic, and I would interrupt you if you wanted
11 to put your version as well.
12 MS. MOTOIKE: I appreciate that.
13 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on.
14 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Witness, just to follow up, you mentioned in your last response
16 actually that the Lions had fought in Tetovo. Can you tell us when that
17 would be?
18 A. When that was. All I can say is that it was snowing. I remember
19 the pictures that were shown on television when the people were there,
20 when their vehicles covered in snow, mud. The dates, whether this was
21 January, February, December, I could not tell you this. There are records
22 when people from the Lions died, when and where. I know that the village
23 of Trebus [phoen] should be mentioned. There were people from the MOI who
24 can explain this in greater detail.
25 Q. And you said that you're not able to tell us a specific time. Can
1 you tell us a year, please, when you believe that that Tetovo conflict
3 A. Yes, I can tell you the year. End of 2001/beginning of 2002.
4 Q. And to your knowledge, do you know, actually, who was the head of
5 the Lions at that time?
6 A. At that time, I could not tell you who was the head of the Lions.
7 I know the people who were leading these people, whether it was
8 Goran Stojkov. I don't know. Don't hold my word for granted. But there
9 were other officers there, so I do not want to manipulate information.
10 Q. So you at least know the name Goran Stojkov and think that he
11 might have been a leader, but you're not sure? Is that my understanding?
12 A. This is correct. I'm not sure.
13 Q. And just to clarify one more point --
14 A. They changed, so I don't know how things were.
15 Q. And just to clarify one more point with respect to this Lions
16 group, were they a part of the Ministry of Interior then?
17 A. Could you please repeat the question? For the time-frame for
18 which you were -- you're asking me that you thought they were a part of?
19 Q. Yes. When the Lions came into being, were they a part of the
20 Ministry of Interior, were they encompassed within the Ministry of
22 A. Correct. They were under the MOI. But after the crisis was over,
23 this unit was disbanded, which, I believe, part of them are now working in
24 the MOI, if I'm not mistaken, also in the army of the Republic of
1 On the 2nd of June, or the 10th of -- 12th of August, whether
2 there were Lions in Ljuboten, around Ljuboten, I cannot confirm. All I
3 can say is that they were reservists of the MOI with uniforms of the MOI.
4 All I can also say, I do not know who their first commander was.
5 Q. Let move on to another part of your response. You had indicated
6 that you believed it was the beginning of -- end of 2001/beginning of
7 2002. The conflict in Macedonia ended in 2001, did it not?
8 A. Yes. With the agreement of the 28th of August, signed -- I
9 believe it was the 28th or the 18th, I may be mistaken. It ended on
10 paper, but we continued with defending of the villages and the towns up
11 until the framework agreement was not implemented. That is to say, the
12 war, military reservists, I think were demobilised in June 2002.
13 Q. And my point was, so the conflict that you described in Tetovo
14 that would have had to occurred in 2001 then?
15 A. It could have been it 2001, correct.
16 Q. You also testified yesterday on page 4143 of the transcript, that
17 the president of Macedonia would decide to deploy police forces during a
18 state of war in 2001.
19 My question to you is: In 2001, had a state of war officially
20 been declared?
21 A. It's like this: So far, no one has, up until now, formulated
22 whether this was a war, or not a war. The fact that lives were lost at
23 positions, that about 100 Macedonians were killed, of which some of them
24 my best friends, I believe, therefore, that military activities were led
25 when helicopters shoot, mortars, artillery. I would not say that this was
1 just a conflict. I don't know what to say to you, but I think it was more
2 than what some may think of not being a war.
3 Q. I apologise, Witness. I meant to ask you specifically to your
4 knowledge, had the president declared a state of war in 2001, to your
6 A. No. I do not know whether he declared it or not.
7 Q. On page 4143 of yesterday' transcript, you were also asked about
8 new law -- the new Law on Defence which came into effect in 2001, and you
9 agreed that no secondary legislation was adopted, the president continued
10 with the powers of commander in chief that he had under the old Law of
12 And my question to you is: What do you mean -- what secondary
13 legislation was needed, if you know?
14 A. It is like this: The Law on Defence was passed by the by-laws,
15 the secondary legislation was not. Therefore, work had to go on following
16 the old law. The old law, according to the old law, the commander of
17 chief of the Armed Forces was the president of the republic. This is why
18 we continued to work or to follow the old, so to say, law, even though the
19 new one had been passed.
20 Q. So your references yesterday were specifically regarding the
21 commander in chief -- the president being the commander of chief of the
22 Armed Forces. That stayed in place, whether it was a new law -- I mean,
23 between the transition from the old law to the new law. Is that my
25 A. This is correct. The government and the president decide.
1 Q. On page 4148 of yesterday's transcript -- actually, it begins on
2 page 4145, you were shown an exhibit which has now been admitted as 1D81.
3 MS. MOTOIKE: Could we please display that for the witness.
4 Actually, Your Honours, before that, we might need to move into
5 private session.
6 JUDGE PARKER: Private.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 4245-4250 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
18 MS. MOTOIKE:
19 Q. On page 4128 of yesterday' transcript, Witness, you talked about
20 an investigation by the army police into the mine incident that occurred
21 on 10 August 2001. And you also indicated that there were official -- at
22 least one Official Note was produced by you regarding that day. So this
23 investigation that you spoke of, was that -- did that -- was that
24 conducted immediately after the event, meaning immediately after the 10th
25 of August?
1 A. That is correct. That investigation -- 10th of August was Friday.
2 I think it was carried out after 1600 hours, 1500, 1600 hours sometimes.
3 When it was safe for the police to go to the scene of the crime.
4 Q. So it was on the same day, then, that the investigation started
5 into the mine incident?
6 A. I think it was the same day. I think it was the same day, because
7 it was -- it ask a long time ago, but I think it was the same day,
8 possibly the next day but it was soon afterwards.
9 Q. Do you know whether the army police interviewed members of the
10 Macedonian security forces who were there, present, basically, at
11 Ljubotenski Bacila at the time?
12 A. Let me inform you, to the best of my knowledge, our superior
13 officer, commanding officer was at the scene was, Jurisic Mario, and how
14 many were interviewed by him, but I believe that they had some interviews
15 for their purposes. And I'm sure that Petrevski Goranco was the person
16 conducting the interview. Yes, because he informed us what the situation
17 was regarding the people, what was the state of the vehicle, since we all
18 thought that the vehicle drove over a mine while it turned out that all
19 four wheels of the vehicle were in proper condition, the mine was
20 activated at the middle of the truck. So it was obvious that the mine was
21 activated by a remote control, with electric connection.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, trailer and not truck.
24 MS. MOTOIKE: Thank you.
25 Your Honours, I have nothing further.
1 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Ms. Motoike
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE PARKER: You will be pleased to know, sir, that that
4 completes the questions that are to be asked of you. The Chamber would
5 thank you for your attendance here and, in particular, for the care and
6 accuracy with which you have been able to answer many questions that have
7 been put to you.
8 You, of course, are now able to return to your normal activities.
9 When we rise, the court officer will show you out.
10 That being the position, we now adjourn to continue tomorrow at
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.15 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th day of
14 August, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.