Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4820

 1                          Wednesday, 12 September 2007

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

 6            JUDGE PARKER:  Good afternoon.

 7            The affirmation you made at the beginning of your evidence still

 8    applies.

 9            Ms. Motoike

10                          WITNESS:  TATJANA GROSEVA [Resumed]

11                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                          Re-examination by Ms. Motoike: [Continued]

13            MS. MOTOIKE:  Thank you.  Good afternoon, Your Honours.

14       Q.   Good afternoon, Ms. Groseva.

15            Yesterday on page 4754 of the transcript, you were given an

16    example of the members of the Lions and the signing of their employment

17    document.  Do you have any knowledge of how members of the Lions were

18    contracted by the Ministry of Interior in 2001?

19       A.   As I informed you, I used to work for a while as an advisor in the

20    legal department, and my knowledge regarding the employment procedure for

21    any employee in the Ministry of Interior.  So what is the procedure, how

22    persons who have special powers are employed, how are people employed

23    through the procedure with a public ad, so I could not say anything

24    specific.  Just what is the regular employment procedure.

25       Q.   So if I'm understanding you correctly, you can't speak to, based

Page 4821

 1    on your own personal knowledge, you cannot speak to how the Lions were

 2    contracted by the Ministry of Interior?

 3       A.   No, I can't.

 4       Q.   On pages 4754 through 4755 of yesterday's transcript, you also

 5    spoke of the disciplinary committee within the Ministry of Interior.  To

 6    your knowledge, are all disciplinary issues sent to this particular

 7    committee?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Later on in the transcript of yesterday, you indicated on pages

10    4760 through 4761 that the documents produced by your particular

11    commission could not be used in court as evidence.  I'd like to ask you:

12    If the information demonstrated misconduct by a particular Ministry of

13    Interior employee, could the information contained in the documents by the

14    commission have been used by Minister Kostov to initiate disciplinary

15    proceedings?

16       A.   The information had a sole purpose, that is, to inform the

17    minister of the interior about the work of the committee.

18       Q.   You indicated on page 4768 of yesterday's transcript, that it was

19    then the minister who had the responsibility to decide what to do with the

20    particular information the commission had gathered.  To your knowledge,

21    does the collective agreement allow the minister to forward information

22    with respect to disciplinary issues?

23       A.   As far as I know, the disciplinary responsibility proceedings are

24    initiated by the direct superior of the officer who has abused the power

25    of office or is involved in misconduct.

Page 4822

 1       Q.   So would you know, based on the knowledge that you have, whether

 2    or not the minister who came to information with respect to disciplinary

 3    issues could forward that information to the disciplinary committee?

 4       A.   I have no such information.

 5       Q.   If the information contained within the documents of your

 6    commission had shown that a crime may have occurred, could the minister

 7    have forwarded this particular information to the public prosecutor for

 8    further investigation?

 9       A.   As far as I know, this is not possible.  For the 15 years of my

10    career in the sector for analytics, an information has never been

11    forwarded to the court.

12            MS. MOTOIKE:  Could we please show what has been admitted as

13    P00096.

14            And, actually, could we go to the first page of this particular

15    document initially.  Perhaps the second page in Macedonian -- in the

16    Macedonian and the first page in English.  Thank you.

17            I think that the translations are not exactly linked.

18       Q.   Ms. Groseva, on the left of your screen there is a language there

19    in the Macedonian language.  This is a -- this is basically the rule book

20    for the Ministry of Interior.   Do you agree?

21       A.   Yes.

22            MS. MOTOIKE:  And if we could go to, please, page 15 of the

23    Macedonian and the corresponding English page is at R042-4638-ET.  It's at

24    page 1 of that particular ERN range.  And if we could zoom in actually on

25    the Macedonian on the right side of the page, article.  It actually should

Page 4823

 1    be the next page in Macedonian.   Could we zoom in on Article 103 on the

 2    bottom of the left-hand side of the Macedonian.  Thank you.

 3       Q.   Ms. Groseva, this is from the Rule Book of the Ministry of

 4    Interior and I'd just like to point out the Article here on the bottom of

 5    the Macedonian page that is being shown to you.  It's Article 103.  And

 6    right above that in bold words it is says:  "Initial evidence for a crime

 7    that has been committed."

 8            Then the Article goes on to provide: "When there exists grounds

 9    for suspecting that a crime which is prosecuted in the line of duty has

10    been committed, the authorised officials take the necessary measures," and

11    then it goes on to say what these measures are.

12            Do you see that?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   If we could turn, please to another Article which is Article 167

15    of this same rule book.  It is located at page 24 of the Macedonian.  The

16    corresponding English translation is at R042-4646-ET.  It's at page 3 in

17    that particular range.

18            If we could focus in on -- yes, thank you very much.

19       Q.   And, Ms. Groseva, I'd like to draw your attention to the bottom of

20    the Macedonian page that is displayed before you.  It's the top of the

21    English.  In bold words at number two it says:  "Submission of the

22    criminal report.  Article 167."  Then it goes on to read: "If on the basis

23    of the collected information and other measures and actions taken for its

24    confirmation and documentation, it is asserted that there exists grounds

25    for suspicion that the crime which is prosecuted in the line of duty was

Page 4824

 1    committed, the authorised official composes a criminal report which is

 2    delivered to the competent public."  And I believe the translation in

 3    English says "defender," but I believe that says "public prosecutor."

 4            Do you see that, Ms. Groseva?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And I know that you indicated to us today that you were not aware

 7    of any -- anything happening where information was then forwarded to the

 8    public prosecutor with respect to the commissions, but would you agree

 9    that these articles that I just read out to you do set forth some

10    procedure that allow the submission of information to the public

11    prosecutor?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   In these particular Articles, though, it allows for information to

14    be submitted when a crime is suspected to the public prosecutor.  Is that

15    my reading?  Am I correct?

16       A.   You are now speaking about the procedure where there is reasonable

17    grounds to believe a crime has been committed.  As I clarified, there is a

18    special service, special unit in the ministry that pursuant to our

19    organisational structure act undertakes these activities in cooperation

20    with the judicial organs.  Our committee gathered information on

21    whether -- or actually what has happened at Skopje village Ljuboten on the

22    12th of August, 2001.  I never performed operative duties but I will say

23    again, an information, what you see here as a format of information

24    submitted to you here, is not forwarded or not attached to any document in

25    the correspondence with the court.  I'm now speaking about the format of

Page 4825

 1    information that you have here in front of you.

 2       Q.   Okay.  And I guess I was asking you more about the general

 3    information, not necessarily the documents, but the information contained

 4    with those reports you generated.  If that information contains some type

 5    of reasonable ground that a crime had been committed, could that

 6    information, not necessarily your documentation been forwarded to the

 7    public prosecutor for review?

 8       A.   As far as I know, not.  No.  The procedure is completely different

 9    when one is acting based on reasonable grounds to believe a crime has been

10    committed.  The correspondence between the expert services and the

11    competent courts.

12       Q.   But if there is reasonable suspicion that a crime has been

13    committed, you agree that these Articles then allow the submission of

14    information to the public prosecutor.

15       A.   We can't really distinguish here what the notion information is.

16    Information, as a document is also when an authorised officer goes and

17    communicates verbally, orally with the public prosecutor to communicate

18    the information to them.

19       Q.   So if an authorised officer within the Ministry of Interior had

20    obtained information not information necessarily from your documents, had

21    obtained just general information, you say that they could then go orally

22    to the public prosecutor to communicate the information?

23       A.   Obviously, we do not fully understand one another.  What I'm

24    saying is that the notion, information, information in this format that

25    you have here is produced by the sector for analytics research and

Page 4826

 1    documentation is not forwarded to the court.  And what is the format of

 2    the information oral in writing from the operative work you saw I'm

 3    working for 15 years in the analytics.

 4       Q.   I guess I was using the term information and maybe that's where

 5    we're -- I'm miscommunicating.  I'm asking about whether facts are known.

 6    If there are some facts indicating reasonable suspicion that a crime had

 7    been committed, an authorised officer then can go to the public prosecutor

 8    and report that orally.  Is that my understanding?

 9       A.   You will have to ask this of the authorised officers who work

10    in -- at that issues in our ministry, since everything I say would be a

11    conjecture.

12       Q.   Okay.  On page 4771, actually 4770 to 4771 of yesterday's

13    transcript you were asked about a gentleman by the name of Risto Galevski,

14    another man by the name of Goran Mitevski and Zivko Petrovski.   And at

15    that time you were in -- in the -- in the course of this questioning

16    yesterday, you had indicated that these persons were on the commission in

17    2001 and that was based on a review of the document you saw yesterday.

18            At that time on page 4772 of the transcript, you stated that

19    Goran Mitevski and Risto Galevski in your opinion, were exceptional

20    professionals.  Do you remember that?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   What about Zivko Petrovski?  What is your opinion with respect to

23    Mr. Petrovski?

24       A.   I think that my assessment comprised also Mr. Zivko Petrovski,

25    considering that, as I clarified, he was the head of the department where

Page 4827

 1    I used to work for a while, so I hold the same opinion also of

 2    Mr. Zivko Petrovski.

 3       Q.   Okay.  On page 4793 of yesterday's transcript and, actually, could

 4    we go to a document first?  Could we please show P00251 which has been

 5    marked for identification this document, I believe, is under seal so I'd

 6    ask that it not be publicised.

 7            And, Ms. Groseva, this is now displayed in front of you on the

 8    screen, the cover page.  This is the correspondence from

 9    Mr. Besim Ramicevic that we saw yesterday.  Do you recall that?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And specifically if we could turn to, please, page 2 in the

12    English, and page 3 of the Macedonian, yesterday I believe this last

13    paragraph which is the third full paragraph in English, and paragraph --

14    first full paragraph in the Macedonian, that paragraph which begins with:

15     "The ministry possesses data that on 10 August 2001, approximately 20

16    people arrived at the Cair police station, the majority of whom were known

17    perpetrators of criminal activities.  They requested that they be issued

18    weapons and uniforms, though Ljube Krstevski, the head of the Cair OVR,

19    municipal military sector ordered that this not be allowed explaining that

20    there were no weapons nor uniforms.  He informed the administrator of this

21    station the following day, 11 August 2001, by mobile phone that an order

22    of the officers in the MVR, Ministry of Interior, it was necessary that

23    the following people be given weapons and uniforms."

24            That particular paragraph was shown to you yesterday by my learned

25    colleague on pages 4793 through 4794 of the transcript.  And you were

Page 4828

 1    asked, Ms. Groseva, about the information contained here.  Do you remember

 2    that?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   At that time you indicated that you could not say where this

 5    particular data came from, because Mr. Krstevski had not been interviewed

 6    at the time that this document was generated by Mr. Ramicevic.  Do you

 7    remember that?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9            MS. MOTOIKE:  Can we please show marked for identification Exhibit

10    P00485 [sic].  This may not be actually in e-court yet.  Could we please

11    with the usher's assistance, this is the document that we received, the

12    Prosecution received recently.  It was provided in hard copy on 10

13    September 2001.

14            I apologise, Your Honours, we're just trying to locate the hard

15    copy.

16            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe we could be of

17    assistance, maybe we could provide our copies of that.

18            MS. MOTOIKE:  Thank you very much, Ms. Residovic.  We've actually

19    found a hard copy.  I appreciate it.

20       Q.   Ms. Groseva, you have the hard copy of this particular document in

21    front of you in the Macedonian language.  The -- again the English

22    translation is currently, I believe, being uploaded and has been disclosed

23    to the Defence but it was disclosed right before the court began today.

24            Ms. Groseva, I would like to point it out, if we could, page 3 of

25    this particular document.  And if you could look at point 3 on page 3 of

Page 4829

 1    the Macedonian language, and if you take a look at that paragraph right

 2    underneath the first paragraph that is labelled with a 3.  And that

 3    paragraph if I can read it says:  "At this meeting it was emphasised that

 4    there is information on events that happened in Ljuboten village and it

 5    provides information that on 10 August 2001 about 20 persons came to

 6    police station Cair."

 7            And again this is, if you can look at the first page of this

 8    document, Ms. Groseva, this is the document pertaining to the information

 9    dated 28/5/2003, which you prepared.  Is that correct?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   And this particular -- this particular document goes on to say:

12     "These men, that is most of them, were known as perpetrators of crime

13    acts.  They asked for weapons and uniforms to be issued to them.  After

14    Ljube Krstevski, head of DOI Cair ordered no weapons or uniforms to be

15    issued to these men, he gave that an explanation that there were no

16    uniforms and weapons available in there.  Then the next day, 11 August

17    2001, Ljube Krstevski informed the administrator of this police station by

18    calling him on a mobile phone, that upon an order issued by senior

19    officers of MOI, Ministry of Interior, he, the administrator should

20    distribute weapons and uniforms to the following persons."

21            Then it goes on to a list of names of persons.  Do you see that?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   Would you agree that the commission had not interviewed

24    Mr. Krstevski at the time this particular information was produced?

25       A.   I apologise, which information?  The one on the screen or the one

Page 4830

 1    I have in front of me in hard copy.

 2       Q.   I apologise, Ms. Groseva.  We're talking about the one that you

 3    have in front of you.  Is it true that the commission had not interviewed

 4    Mr. Krstevski according -- had not interviewed Mr. Krstevski at the time

 5    that the information you have in front of you in hard copy was produced?

 6       A.   So this information indicates that we, as a committee, have

 7    received information or assertions with the facts that have you

 8    mentioned.  To verify the accuracy of the assertions in the information as

 9    a document, if you continue further, you will see that the committee

10    proposes that several persons are interviewed.  So this is at the moment

11    when the committee worked, this is an information received and the

12    committee needs to verify the information.  And therefore, among the

13    persons to be invited is the head of the police station, Cair,

14    Ljube Krstevski.

15       Q.   So Mr. Krstevski had not been interviewed yet at the time that

16    this information, the one that have you in hard copy in front of you, was

17    produced?

18       A.   No, he hadn't been.

19       Q.   And is the information that we just went over in this particular

20    paragraph on page 3 at point 3, is that information similar to the data

21    contained in the document that we just read over prepared by

22    Mr. Ramicevic?

23       A.   I don't see it on the screen, but that -- that should be the text.

24       Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... So it's similar ... The

25    information --

Page 4831

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 3            MS. MOTOIKE:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I have nothing further.

 4            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

 5            You will be pleased to know that that concludes the questions for

 6    you.  The Chamber would thank you for your attendance here in The Hague

 7    and for the assistance you have been able to give.  You are, of course,

 8    now able to return to Macedonia, and the court officer will show you out.

 9    We thank you.

10            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you and I wish

11    to thank you for your appreciation of my health condition, and I apologise

12    if I have caused any inconvenience in the work of the Court.

13            Thank you.

14            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

15                          [The witness withdrew]

16            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Saxon.

17            MR. SAXON:  Your Honours, at this time, the Prosecution will call

18    General Zoran Jovanovski.

19            Your Honours, while we're waiting, I see that there is a document

20    left on the witness table.  Shall I remove it?  Thank you very much.

21                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22            JUDGE PARKER:  The transcript referred to the last document shown

23    to the last witness as Exhibit 485.  I'm told that should be Exhibit P435.

24                          [The witness entered court]

25            JUDGE PARKER:  General, would you please stand and read aloud the

Page 4832

 1    affirmation on the card that is given to you.

 2            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters cannot hear the witness.

 3            JUDGE PARKER:  General, do you swear that the evidence you will

 4    give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

 5            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

 6            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.   Please --

 7            Yes, Mr. Saxon.

 8                          WITNESS:  ZORAN JOVANOVSKI

 9                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

10                          Examination by Mr. Saxon:

11       Q.   Sir, is your name General Zoran Jovanovski?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And are you a citizen of Macedonia?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   And are you of Macedonian ethnicity?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   In the summer of 2001, what was your rank and position?  Actually,

18    I'm sorry, I went too quickly.

19            General, when did you join the Macedonian police?

20       A.   February 1986.

21       Q.   Okay.  And in the summer of 2001, General, what was your rank and

22    position?

23       A.   Until the month of May, I was a chief inspector in the posebna

24    unit, and then after May, I was a deputy under-secretary, I was a deputy

25    of the General Risto Galevski.

Page 4833

 1       Q.   And -- and what was your rank at the time?

 2       A.   Colonel.

 3       Q.   And when you say you were the deputy under-secretary under

 4    General Risto Galevski, does that mean you were the deputy under-secretary

 5    for the uniformed police department?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   When were you promoted to general?

 8       A.   That was in January/February 2002.

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters kindly ask the Prosecutor to use

10    another microphone or to move closer to this one.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

12    By the minister at the time, Boskoski.

13            MR. SAXON:

14       Q.   I'm sorry, General, my previous question was not translated or

15    transcribed into the record so I'm going to ask you again.

16            Who promoted you to the rank of general?

17       A.   Boskoski, who at the time was the minister.

18       Q.   Okay.  General, in the summer of 2003 [Realtime transcript read in

19    error"2002"], did you continue to have the same position?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   I'd like to show you a document.

22            Your Honours, we have some binders with some materials for you and

23    also a copy for the witness and I think for the Defence.  If we could ask

24    the court usher to help us distribute them.

25            JUDGE PARKER:  Is this different from the bundle we received

Page 4834

 1    yesterday?

 2            MR. SAXON:  Well, there are some additional documents, Your

 3    Honour.  In that sense, it is different.

 4            JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Residovic.

 5            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not wish to

 6    interrupt but I think that the question of my learned friend, page 15,

 7    line 8, I think that he said -- asked that in the summer of 2003 and in

 8    the transcript it says 2002.  So if I didn't hear well, I apologise.  If I

 9    heard right, I would like to correct the transcript.

10            MR. SAXON:  Ms. Residovic heard quite well.  I'm very grateful for

11    catching it.  It should say summer of 2003.

12       Q.   General, if you could turn, please, to what is tab 2 in the set of

13    documents in front of you, and below the English version you'll find a

14    Macedonian version.  This -- I can perhaps assist the Court.  This is from

15    what has been marked for identification as Exhibit P379, or if it is

16    simpler, this would also be found in Rule 65 ter 285.5.

17            General, this is a document dated the 7th of March, 2003, and it

18    is entitled, "Decision on the establishment of a commission."  Do you see

19    that?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   I'm sorry to bother the court usher but could the General's left

22    microphone, please be turned on.  The General -- has solved the problem.

23    Thank you very much.

24            And part one of this decision says: "That a commission of inquiry

25    into the circumstances and facts related to the events and incidents which

Page 4835

 1    took place in the territory of Ljuboten village, Skopje, in August 2001,

 2    is hereby established within the Ministry of the Interior consisting of

 3    the following members."

 4            And General, do you see your name there, the first person who is

 5    named there?

 6       A.   Yes, I can see that.

 7       Q.   Major-General Zoran Jovanovski.  And if you look at the second

 8    part of this decision, we see that the commission shall have the task to

 9    investigate and analyse all materials and documents relating to the events

10    which took place in the territory of Ljuboten, Skopje in this period.

11    This is at page 2 of the English version and page 2 of the Macedonian

12    version.  "Including the identity of each of its members individually;

13    establish the causes and circumstances surrounding the deaths of the

14    victims; the material damage inflicted in order to establish the truth

15    about the aforementioned events; investigate how the legal powers of the

16    unit were exercised; and assess the consequences of the action."

17            Have you been able to follow me, General?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   General, and we see that this decision to establish this

20    commission was rendered by Hari Kostov, who was then the minister of the

21    interior.  General Jovanovski, after you received this decision issued by

22    Minister Kostov to establish this commission, did you have any discussions

23    with Minister Kostov about the work of the commission?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Can you briefly describe what you wanted to discuss with

Page 4836

 1    Minister Kostov and how the discussion went.

 2       A.   All of those listed here as members of this committee, they were

 3    all in managerial positions, and they certain tasks that they had to

 4    perform.  In section 2 where these responsibilities are outlined

 5    considered for this committee which besides its regular tasks will not be

 6    in a situation to fully respond to the second part of the tasks.  This is

 7    under number 2, Roman.  The minister, I got a verbal approval that the

 8    committee should decide what is it a priority and what is it that can be

 9    completed within the time-frame given.

10       Q.   All right.  And was it after that discussion that the commission

11    began its work?  [Microphone not activated]

12       A.   I couldn't say that we started working right away, because it was

13    very difficult to get all of us together.  We all had other

14    responsibilities, other current responsibilities.  However, we started

15    working.

16       Q.   All right.  I'd like to show you another document, if I may.  If

17    you could turn, please, to what is tabbed as document 17, and this is

18    Exhibit P00073, at tab 17.

19            Actually, I'm sorry, I misspoke.  Could you turn, please, to --

20    well, no.  Stay with tab 17, please, which is P00073.  We see here,

21    General, that, that on the 13th of August, 2001, then Minister of Internal

22    Affairs Ljube Boskoski issued a decision to establish a commission.  Do

23    you see that?

24       A.   I only see the information here.

25       Q.   Can you turn to tab 17?  You seem to be on tab 19 -- 18 right now.

Page 4837

 1       A.   I apologise.

 2       Q.   There you are.  Do you see that decision there that was issued on

 3    the 13th of August --

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Now, if can you turn, please, to tab 18, which is Exhibit P00378.

 6    Take a look at the Macedonian version, please, General.

 7            We see this document is titled, Report submitted to the ministry

 8    of the interior regarding an examination of the circumstances and an

 9    analysis of the activities undertaken by the security forces for the

10    Ministry of Interior to repulse armed attacks by terrorist groups on the

11    12th of August, 2001, in the village of Ljuboten, Skopje.

12            And then we see it is submitted by the commission formed by the

13    resolution that was issued on the 13th of August.  Do you see that on the

14    first page?

15       A.   Yes, yes.

16       Q.   And then on the last page we see that this report was signed by

17    the three members of the commission, Goran Mitevski, Risto Galevski, and

18    Zivko Petrovski.  Do you see that?

19       A.   [No interpretation]

20       Q.   When, in 2003 when your commission --

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   In 2003, when the commission that you headed was doing its work,

23    did it have this report available to it, the report that's in front of you

24    now?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 4838

 1       Q.   And do you recall, did the commission that you led in 2003 have

 2    any other materials available to it that were produced by the commission

 3    that operated in 2001?

 4       A.   Can you repeat the question again, please.

 5       Q.   Yeah.  Did the commission that you led in 2003 have any other

 6    materials available to it that had been produced by the commission that

 7    did its work in 2001, the earlier commission?

 8       A.   No, just the report.

 9       Q.   All right.  General, during the work of the commission in 2003,

10    did any person or institution exert any pressure or influence on its work?

11       A.   No.  There was no pressure by anybody.

12       Q.   General, did the commission that you led speak with some of the

13    persons who been involved or had allegedly been involved in the events in

14    or around Ljuboten on the 12th of August, 2001?

15       A.   Yes, we interviewed several individuals.

16       Q.   And amongst these individuals that your commission interviewed,

17    were there interviews or discussions with members of the Ministry of

18    Interior, with civilians, or both?

19       A.   Yes, both with employees from the ministry and with civilians.

20       Q.   Can you recall, General, approximately how many times the

21    committee that you led in 2003 met?

22       A.   About five or six times.

23       Q.   And, General, when the commission that you led spoke with persons,

24    was any kind of coercion or threats or pressure put on those persons to

25    make them give information to the commission?

Page 4839

 1       A.   No.  There was no pressure.

 2            THE INTERPRETER:  I couldn't hear the last word that the witness

 3    said.

 4            MR. SAXON:

 5       Q.   Okay.  The last word was commission, sorry.

 6            General, could a person having a discussion with the commission in

 7    2003 refuse to answer questions?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Did the commission keep records of its work and its discussions

10    with persons?

11       A.   Yes, we kept the minutes.

12       Q.   Who created these records or these minutes?

13       A.   Those were employees in the sector for analytics.

14       Q.   Okay.  Can you recall the name of one or more of them?

15       A.   Most of them were taken by Tanja Groseva.  And the first one as we

16    saw now, there was another person from her sector.

17       Q.   Okay.  And tell us, please, how were these minutes created?

18       A.   The committee members and myself as the chair, we were asking

19    questions of those that we had invited.  The individuals would respond or

20    comment on what they had to say, and the analytician [as interpreted] was

21    writing down as much as she could in terms of minutes, wrote down those

22    notes and in the end we produced a report that was then submitted to the

23    members, and to the minister or to me as a chief of this working group of

24    this committee.

25       Q.   Okay.  I'd like to go a little bit more slowly with you, General.

Page 4840

 1            You mentioned how the person from the analytical sector would take

 2    notes and at some point were these notes transformed into minutes or an

 3    information?

 4       A.   This was not regulated anywhere whether that was going to be a

 5    report or minutes.  What was important that we came out with the

 6    document from a meeting that was held or with an interview with certain

 7    individuals, so the title of this document is not so important whether it

 8    is information or minutes.

 9       Q.   All right.  The -- the document that was produced, would these

10    documents have included 100 per cent of what the individual speaking with

11    the commission had said?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   Can you describe, then, or explain how much of the information was

14    compiled in a document?

15       A.   A maximum of 80 per cent.

16       Q.   Okay.  And when these documents were compiled, did the members of

17    the commission review them to see if they agreed with their accuracy

18    before they were finalised?

19       A.   The minutes or the information from the meeting that was held, or

20    interview, as a rule, needs to be submitted to all members of the

21    committee.  Now whether they read those or not, I could not say.  However,

22    they're -- everybody receives a copy.

23       Q.   Did you review these reports or minutes before they were

24    finalised?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 4841

 1       Q.   In addition to these reports or minutes, or information, the

 2    documents that were produced, did some of the persons interviewed also

 3    produce handwritten reports or an Official Note about their participation

 4    in the events in or around Ljuboten?

 5       A.   Yes.  Some of the individuals took notes.

 6       Q.   And --

 7            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, some of the

 8    individuals were writing down things.

 9            MR. SAXON:

10       Q.   Okay.  And why was it important both to create reports or minutes

11    and also to have the individual writing down in their own handwriting

12    information related to these events?  Why were both done?

13       A.   In some cases, some things need to be explained well, or maybe the

14    person that is interviewed or interrogated cannot explain things well so

15    that person handwrites these statements.

16       Q.   Okay.  And what was done with these handwritten statements and

17    then the typed up minutes or reports?  What was done with all of this

18    material eventually?

19       A.   They -- it was submitted to the minister.

20       Q.   All of this material?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   General, can you recall when the commission that you led met for

23    the first time approximately, or the month?

24       A.   I think it was May.

25       Q.   Okay.  If I could ask you, General, please, to turn to what is the

Page 4842

 1    third document in the materials in front of you.  It should say tab 3.  Do

 2    you see the Macedonian version?

 3            MR. SAXON:  This is from exhibit marked for identification P379 or

 4    65 ter 285.24.

 5       Q.   General, do you see the report that's in front of you?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   It's dated the 6th of May --

 8       A.   Information.

 9       Q.   It's dated the 6th of May, 2003 -- I stand corrected if it should

10    say information rather than report.  About the meeting of the commission

11    investigating the events in Ljuboten village.

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And this information describes conversations with a number of

14    individuals.  Do you see that?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And at the end we see that this information was submitted to the

17    under-secretary of the police department.

18            My question for you is this:  Was this information or this record

19    made following the same procedure that you described a couple of minutes

20    ago?  Notes were taken --

21       A.   Yes, yes, yes.

22       Q.   And did you and the other members of the committee have the

23    opportunity to review this information before it was finalised and suggest

24    changes or correct mistakes?

25       A.   I looked at it, reviewed it but I'm not sure about the others.  I

Page 4843

 1    couldn't say that about the others because this was also submitted to the

 2    minister as well.

 3       Q.   Okay.  But you reviewed before it was finalised for accuracy?

 4       A.   That is correct.  It is relative but it can be said that it's

 5    correct.

 6       Q.   If you can turn now to what is the document at tab 10 in the

 7    materials in front of you, General.  This is, again, from the same exhibit

 8    number, 65 ter 285.7.

 9            Do you see the document in the Macedonian version there?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   It's dated 12 November 2003.  And the first word in the English

12    version of the title, it says minutes.  I don't know if you would prefer

13    to use the word information.  But it's the minutes of a meeting of the

14    commission for inquiry into the events and incidents in Ljuboten village.

15    Do you see that?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And it describes a discussion that the commission had with

18    Mr. Johan Tarculovski.   And then if you could please turn to -- actually,

19    at the top of the first page, the first paragraph, it also indicates that

20    Mr. Johan Tarculovski was present with his attorney.  Do you see that in

21    the very first paragraph?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And if you turn to the second page now, you see two signatures.

24    One of them over the name -- or under the name Johan Tarculovski; and

25    another signature under the name Major-General Zoran Jovanovski, president

Page 4844

 1    of the commission.

 2            General, is that your signature there?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   And was this document produced in the same manner that you've

 5    described to us before?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   Did you also have the opportunity to review -- to review this

 8    document before you signed it?

 9       A.   As I can see two people, both people are signing so that means

10    that both people were supposed to agree with each other.

11       Q.   Okay.  So then I -- can I take that response to mean both you and

12    Mr. Tarculovski had the opportunity to review this document before it was

13    signed? [Microphone not activated]

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   General, to your knowledge, was any member of the police or the

16    Ministry of Interior ever disciplined or punished in any way for their

17    actions in or around the village of Ljuboten on the 12th of August, 2001?

18       A.   As a deputy under-secretary at the time, I had no authority to

19    discipline or reward any colleagues.

20       Q.   No, I understand that, General.  I'm sorry, my question was

21    something different.

22            I'm simply asking about your knowledge.  My question is:  Do you

23    have any knowledge or information that any member of the police or the

24    Ministry of the Interior was ever disciplined or punished for their

25    actions in or around Ljuboten?

Page 4845

 1            MR. SAXON:  I think the witness is having a problem hearing the

 2    translation.

 3            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's okay.  It's good.

 4            If can you just repeat this, because the -- the interpretation was

 5    interrupted at one point.

 6            MR. SAXON:

 7       Q.   Sure.  General, I'm simply asking about your knowledge.  Do you

 8    have any knowledge or any information that any member of the Macedonian

 9    police or any member of the Ministry of the Interior was ever disciplined

10    or punished for their activities in or around Ljuboten in August of 2001?

11       A.   As far as I know about the work of the police, at the end of each

12    month there is analysis of the work of the police officers, and some

13    police officers are disciplined, other police officers are rewarded.

14       Q.   Thank you for that, General.  But you still actually haven't

15    answered my question.

16            Do you want me to repeat the question again?

17       A.   I cannot say specifically about Ljuboten.  I cannot say that

18    somebody was disciplined because of Ljuboten or that a person was rewarded

19    because of Ljuboten specifically.

20       Q.   Okay.  So I think, then, in answer to my question, you have no

21    such knowledge then.

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Okay.  If you can turn, please, to what is at tab 11.  Actually,

24    let me go back for a moment, before you go to tab 11, General.  You

25    mentioned a moment ago that at the end of each month there's analysis of

Page 4846

 1    the work of police officers and some police officers are disciplined and

 2    other police officers are rewarded.  Would that information as to who's

 3    being disciplined, who's being rewarded, commended, would that information

 4    be passed up to your office and your supervisor then, Risto Galevski?

 5       A.   That is by organisational units.  Each organisational unit

 6    prepares a report for discipline and reward of its members.

 7       Q.   Okay.  And is that information then passed up the chain of command

 8    to the higher ranks of the Ministry of Interior?

 9       A.   We can have an insight, but -- but I'm not sure if they're always

10    sent up the chain of command.  I have not encountered anything like that.

11       Q.   Okay.  Do you recall, after August 2001, after the events in

12    Ljuboten, receiving any information that any member of the police or the

13    Ministry of Interior had been disciplined or rewarded, related to the

14    events in Ljuboten?

15       A.   The then head of SVR Skopje was returned to the Mr. Zoran Efremov

16    was returned to his home town of Stip.  I cannot recall about others.

17       Q.   Okay.  And that was some kind of a disciplinary matter, related to

18    Mr. Efremov?

19       A.   Well, I'm not the person who can comment on decisions whether that

20    is disciplinary or not.  But the person was sent back from where he came

21    from.

22       Q.   All right.  But was that in relation to any activities that

23    Mr. Efremov had conducted in or around the village of Ljuboten on the 12th

24    of August?

25       A.   I cannot say about that.

Page 4847

 1       Q.   Okay.  I'll move on.

 2            If you take a look, please, at what is tab 11.  And this is,

 3    again, from what has been marked for identification as P00379, 65 ter

 4    285.11.

 5            General, if you take a look, please, at the Macedonian version,

 6    you will see that this is a document dated the 20th of November, 2003.  It

 7    is submitted by Staff-Sergeant Miodrag Stojanovski.  It's an Official

 8    Note.  It is one of the records supplied from the Macedonian government to

 9    the Office of the Prosecutor related to the work of your committee.  And

10    it says: "Subject, weapons issued to volunteers in 2001."

11            Do you see that?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   It says:  "On the 25th of July 2001, a group from the Kometa

14    agency led by Johan Tarculovski employed at the security sector of the R M

15    MVR arrived at the police station OOV.  They presented a list to commander

16    Gjorgji Mitrov and asked to be issued with weapons as volunteer police

17    reservists.  The commander, having consulted his superiors at the security

18    sector, ordered me to issue the weapons.  Half of the men from the list

19    were issued with weapons on 25 July 2001, and the other half on 26th July,

20    2001, after which they were sent to the CO KOB, security training centre

21    to join other volunteers and fill out the questionnaires for police

22    reservists."

23            General, are you familiar with the place called PSOLO?

24       A.   Yes.  That is a police station for securing objects and persons.

25       Q.   Okay.  And to your knowledge, would it have been possible to arm a

Page 4848

 1    group of volunteer police reservists at this police station or at PSOLO

 2    without the knowledge of the minister in 2001?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Okay.  In 2001, were you familiar with a security agency in

 5    Macedonia called Kometa?

 6       A.   Yes, I've heard about the security agency Kometa.

 7       Q.   Can you recall the name of the gentleman who was the head of the

 8    Kometa agency in 2001?

 9       A.   Unfortunately, he has the same name and last name as I do.

10       Q.   Okay.  And does this gentleman have a nickname?

11       A.   Yes, Bucuk.

12       Q.   All right.  Before we talk a little bit more about the agency

13    known as Kometa, I want to go back for a moment where you told us that in

14    2001 it would have been possible to arm a group of volunteer police

15    reservists at PSOLO without the knowledge of the minister.

16            Would it have been possible to arm a group of volunteer police

17    reservists without an order from someone in the Ministry of Interior?

18       A.   There's no special order given to issue weapons.  There is a

19    description of a procedure to give weapons to the persons.  So any

20    volunteer who wanted to be in the reserves at that moment could have been

21    issued weapons without a specific order being issued and approval obtained

22    from the minister.

23       Q.   Okay.  I'm sorry, I wasn't -- again, I wasn't in this question

24    referring to an order or approval from the minister.  I'm saying -- my

25    question is:  Would the arming of a group of police reservists have at

Page 4849

 1    least required the order or the approval of someone in the Ministry of

 2    Interior?

 3       A.   I answered that the approval is obtained from the immediate

 4    superiors, while an order is received from, let’s say, the Minister.

 5       Q.   Okay.  So then approval for the arming of a group of volunteer

 6    reservists would come from the superior or superiors of the person who

 7    issue weapons.   Is that right?

 8       A.   There is no need for something like that.  There is an instruction

 9    how fire-arms are issued.  I'm not sure if you understood me.  There is no

10    need to obtain approval or special order, in order to issue weapons.

11       Q.   Okay.  As long as the procedures are followed, the procedures of

12    the Ministry of Interior?

13       A.   They need to be followed.

14       Q.   Okay.

15            MR. SAXON:  Can we turn, please, to what is tab 19 in your -- in

16    your binder.  This is 65 ter number 6.

17       Q.   General, before we take a look at this, can you recall whether

18    your commission interviewed the man known as Bucuk in 2003?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Okay.  And this is a document, if you take a look at the first

21    page, it says up at top:  "Persons issued with weapons on the 25th and

22    26th July 2001."  And then it's the list or a table with the first column

23    being a number, second column being last name and first name, then it says

24    automatic rifle, automatic rifle ammunition, pistol, camouflage uniform,

25    boots, et cetera.

Page 4850

 1            Do you see that, General?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   And if we go to the very last page in both versions, you see that

 4    this -- there's a sentence at the bottom of the last page over the

 5    initials of Miodrag Stojanovski and it says:  "I hereby confirm that I

 6    personally compiled this list pursuant to a list that the Kometa employees

 7    gave me before I started issuing them with weapons."

 8            Do you see that?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   General, if you could focus, please, on the first page in the

11    Macedonian version of this document?

12            MR. SAXON:  And for Your Honours and others following along in

13    English, you might want to look at page 4 of the English version.

14       Q.   But, General, in the Macedonian version on that first page, can

15    you scroll down, look at those names and can you see any names on that

16    list that you recognise as persons who worked for the Kometa security

17    agency in 2001?

18       A.   Only the owner Bucuk, not anybody else.

19       Q.   Okay.  And is that the name you see at number 21,

20    Zoran Jovanovski?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And do you recognise any of the other names?

23       A.   No, no.

24       Q.   Okay.

25            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, at this time I would ask that this

Page 4851

 1    document be marked for identification, please.

 2            JUDGE PARKER:  It will be marked.

 3            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, this will be exhibit number P436,

 4    marked for identification.

 5            MR. SAXON:

 6       Q.   General, during 2001, during the crisis period, and, General,

 7    maybe you could turn the right-hand microphone on that's in front of you.

 8    Do you see the green button?  Thank you.

 9            During 2001, during the crisis time, General, did the Ministry of

10    Interior engage members of the Kometa security agency for different tasks?

11       A.   Could you please repeat it once again.  Whether ...

12       Q.   Did the Minister of the Interior engage or contract, employ

13    members of the Kometa security agency for different tasks or jobs?

14       A.   No.

15       Q.   Okay.  Did -- to your knowledge, did members of the Kometa

16    security agency participate in operations of the Macedonian security

17    forces against the NLA?

18       A.   No.

19       Q.   All right.  General, do you know if Johan Tarculovski and

20    Ljube Boskoski knew each other in 2001?

21       A.   No, I can't say whether they knew one another.

22       Q.   Okay.

23       A.   Since I have never seen them together anywhere, no, I don't know.

24       Q.   All right.  One question for you:  In 2001, while General --

25    excuse me, while Ljube Boskoski was the minister of the interior, could

Page 4852

 1    Mr. Boskoski give orders to members of the army?

 2       A.   No.

 3       Q.   In the spring and summer and autumn of 2001, how often would you

 4    speak with Minister Boskoski?

 5       A.   As often as I need to speak in the line of the duty, nothing more

 6    than that.

 7       Q.   I understand that.  But could you be slightly more specific, even

 8    if it is just an approximation, once a day, once a week, several times a

 9    week, several times a day, or did it vary?

10       A.   Once a week in the collegium.

11       Q.   And apart from that?

12       A.   Apart from that, no, I had another superior officer.

13       Q.   In 2001, before the events at Ljuboten, General, were there

14    instances where members of the Macedonian police used some excessive force

15    or committed some kind of misconduct?  Can you recall any incidents of

16    that?

17       A.   No, I don't recall anything of the sort.

18       Q.   Okay.  Can you recall whether Minister Boskoski placed an

19    importance on maintaining discipline and order amongst the police?

20       A.   That was stressed as a priority at every meeting, to abide by the

21    rules, by the law.

22            MR. SAXON:  Mr. Usher, if the witness could be given some more

23    water, please.

24            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, please just change my glass.

25            JUDGE PARKER:  I wonder whether that is a convenient time,

Page 4853

 1    Mr. Saxon.  You'd like to continue?  Please do.

 2            MR. SAXON:  If it's all right, it would just be one or two more

 3    questions.

 4       Q.   General, when you say that was stressed as a priority at every

 5    meeting to abide by the rules and abide by the law, was that stressed by

 6    Minister Boskoski?

 7       A.   Yes.  This is where it came from, from the ministers.

 8       Q.   And can you recall what steps, if any, did Minister Boskoski take

 9    to ensure that good discipline and order was maintained amongst the

10    police.  Give some examples.

11       A.   In the police department there was a sector for public law and

12    order where there were seven or eight inspectors who were in the field on

13    a daily basis and they would control the proper operation in the police

14    stations, sectors, or departments.

15       Q.   I understand that.  But the question that I asked you was

16    specifically related to Minister Boskoski.  Do you want me to repeat my

17    question again?

18       A.   Please do.

19       Q.   Can you recall, General, what steps, if any, did Minister Boskoski

20    take to ensure that good discipline and order was maintained amongst the

21    police?

22       A.   The minister himself, his duty is to ensure that the inspectors

23    who are employed in the ministry enforce the ministry's policy.

24       Q.   And during that -- during 2001, during, for example, the meetings

25    of the collegium, did you see or hear Minister Boskoski take steps to

Page 4854

 1    ensure that those inspectors were doing their job?

 2       A.   I can't understand you.  The minister is not the manager of those

 3    inspectors.  The minister is managing the higher -- highest rank in the

 4    ministry, because our ministry has a hierarchy.  We have general police

 5    that controls the police.  We have the head of the crime police who is in

 6    charge of the order among his ranks.

 7       Q.   I guess maybe -- let me ask my question a different way, General.

 8            You explained that the duty, one of the duties of the minister is

 9    to ensure that the inspectors who are employed in the ministry enforce the

10    ministry's policy regarding discipline.  And I'm just asking you whether

11    you can recall seeing or hearing Minister Boskoski take any particular

12    steps, give any particular orders to make sure that those inspectors were

13    doing their job properly, that's all.

14       A.   Specific orders, he could not give to the -- to the inspectors.

15    He could give orders to his direct associates such as the director, the

16    director would then forward the orders to the under-secretaries.  He often

17    visited the sectors for internal affairs where he would hold meetings with

18    the heads of stations and he would then receive information on how the law

19    is enforced and how the operation went.

20            THE INTERPRETER:  And interpreter's correction in line 36.10,

21    police general instead of general police.

22            MR. SAXON:  Okay.

23       Q.   And you say that Minister Boskoski would often visit the sectors

24    for internal affairs and hold meeting with the heads of stations and

25    receive information on how the law was enforced and how an operation went.

Page 4855

 1    Did you ever accompany the minister on such visits?

 2       A.   I apologise, I did not say operations.

 3       Q.   I'm sorry, that's how it was translated into English.

 4            The English transcript said, The minister would often visit

 5    sectors for internal affairs where he would hold meetings with the heads

 6    of stations and he would then receive information on how the law is

 7    enforced and then in English it says and how the operation went.

 8            Would you like to correct the end of that sentence?

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  If the interpreter could offer clarification,

10    operation in the sense of work.

11            MR. SAXON:  Oh.  Did you ever accompany the minister in such --

12            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no operations mentioned in

13    my work is the witness's answer.

14            If I was invited, I would accompany him, but it has happened once

15    or twice.

16            MR. SAXON:

17       Q.   Okay.  And when the minister would receive information on those

18    visits would the minister ever issue instructions or orders based on the

19    information that he received?

20       A.   Yes.  At the collegium, so every Monday when is there a collegium,

21    the weekly work is summarized and new tasks are issued for the week that

22    follows.

23       Q.   Okay.

24            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, I think we can stop there.  Thank you.

25            JUDGE PARKER:  We will resume at 20 past 4.00.

Page 4856

 1                          --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.

 2                          --- On resuming at 4.24 p.m.

 3            JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Residovic.

 4            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I just wish to

 5    inform the Chamber that today and the following days of this week, the

 6    attorney Nikola Kunovski who is a member of the Defence team for

 7    Mr. Boskoski will also attend the trial.

 8            Thank you.

 9            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.  Welcome.

10            Mr. Saxon.

11            MR. SAXON:

12       Q.   General Jovanovski, before we took the break you had explained

13    that sometimes the minister would go visit other ministries, sectors or

14    police stations and speak with commanders, get information, and then at

15    the weekly collegium meetings the minister might issue -- assign tasks

16    based on that information.  Can you give some examples of the kind of

17    tasks or the kinds of instructions that the minister would give at the

18    collegium meetings?

19       A.   They were primarily related to - how should I say? - construction

20    works, improvement of the working conditions, then if some uniform parts

21    are missing, then they should be procured, that the police officers should

22    look properly, then if there are some comments regarding the outlook of

23    the building, then the minister would issue recommendations; so this is

24    all related to the daily work, not something in the extreme.

25       Q.   Okay.  So the minister issued tasks related to the daily work of

Page 4857

 1    the Ministry of the Interior.  Is that fair?

 2       A.   Well, yes.

 3       Q.   You mentioned the subject that police officers should look

 4    properly.  And what do you mean by that?  What -- what do you mean by

 5     "police officer who looks proper"?  What does that mean?

 6       A.   To have the proper hat, proper neat uniform, shirt, trousers,

 7    shoes, the belt and the equipment they carry should also be neat.

 8       Q.   And why is that important that police officers wear uniform?  Why

 9    is that important?

10       A.   I'm now speaking about the police officers who are wearing the

11    uniform on a daily basis.  I'm not speaking about everyone employed in the

12    ministry.  Not everyone is wearing a uniform.

13       Q.   No, General, I understand that.  I'm talking about members of the

14    police who wear uniforms.  My question is simply why is that important

15    that -- that uniformed policemen wear a uniform?  What is the significance

16    of the uniform?

17       A.   The uniform has several aspects of significance.  One is it works

18    as a prevention.  Those who are planning to commit a offence when they see

19    a police officer they will be deterred from committing a crime or a

20    misdemeanour.  Then we are of assistance for the citizens.  And to

21    maintain public law and order, to prevent it from disturbances.

22       Q.   Does the uniform, then, assist both police officers, criminals and

23    the public in identifying who is a policeman and who is not?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   Back in 2001, were you aware of any instances where persons were

Page 4858

 1    wearing police uniforms and carrying fire-arms but were not police

 2    officers?

 3       A.   There are several types of police officers.  I don't know which of

 4    those you are referring at.  If you are referring to the blue, the regular

 5    uniform, there were no such cases.

 6       Q.   Okay.  General, in late May 2001, were you seriously injured in a

 7    NLA mortar attack?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Following that attack, can you recall what other units, if any,

10    were created in the Ministry of Interior to protect Macedonia from the

11    threat of the NLA?

12       A.   During that period, apart from the regular police, we had a

13    provisional unit that was established but it was activated temporarily,

14    the posebna unit, and the unit for special tasks, Tiger.

15       Q.   And were any other units or groups of police officers set up

16    during the spring or summer of 2001 that you can recall?

17       A.   Not in 2001.

18       Q.   Okay.  General, can you recall that in June 2001 there was

19    fighting between the Macedonian security forces and the NLA at the town of

20    Aracinovo?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And do you recall that after the NLA was pulled out of Aracinovo

23    there were large demonstrations in the centre of Skopje by persons who

24    were upset with the actions of the government?

25       A.   There were unrests in the centre of the city, yes.

Page 4859

 1       Q.   Were you present in Skopje on the evening when those

 2    demonstrations occurred?

 3       A.   Yes, in Skopje, yes.

 4       Q.   Did you observe part or all of these demonstrations?

 5       A.   No.

 6            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters wish to note that there appears

 7    to be interference between both microphones of the Prosecutor which are

 8    on.  So if you could move closer to one of them, thank you very much.

 9            MR. SAXON:

10       Q.   General, on Friday, 10th of August, 2001, eight Macedonian

11    soldiers were killed when a mine exploded at Ljubotenski Bacila.  Do you

12    recall that?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   How did you learn about this event; can you recall?

15       A.   No, I can't recall.

16       Q.   Can you recall whether you informed Minister Boskoski about this

17    event?

18       A.   No.  I haven't informed him myself, not me personally.

19       Q.   Okay.  And did you have an opportunity to observe any reaction of

20    Minister Boskoski related to the news about the incident at Ljubotenski

21    Bacila?

22       A.   No.

23       Q.   Can you recall any discussions within the ministry about this

24    explosion at Ljubotenski Bacila and the death of the eight soldiers?

25       A.   I can't recall.  Since my duties were outside of the ministry, I

Page 4860

 1    was not within the ministry during this period, so I don't know about the

 2    ministry.

 3       Q.   You say your duties were outside of the ministry, but you were the

 4    under-secretary at the time -- excuse me, you were the deputy

 5    under-secretary at the time, right?

 6       A.   After May, yes.  But I'm referring to the headquarters of the

 7    ministry, so at the seat of the ministry I'm speaking about the

 8    facilities, the buildings where the Ministry -- employees of the Ministry

 9    of Interior are working.  My tasks were outside of that courtyard where

10    those buildings are.

11       Q.   Can you recall what your tasks were on the 10th and 11th, and 12th

12    of August, 2001, where you were?

13       A.   I made the daily rounds of the police officers who are at the

14    check-points, for instance, or who were performing the daily duties.  And

15    regarding the 12th, I believe I was at my office.

16       Q.   And when you say you made daily rounds of the police officers who

17    were at the check-points, would those check-points have included

18    check-points in the Ljuboten area, Ljubanci, Radisani?

19       A.   I would say that there were other colleagues in charge of the

20    Skopje region, or Skopje vicinity.  I was making rounds of the Tetovo and

21    Kumanov regions.

22       Q.   All right.  General, I would like to show you a video, if I may.

23            MR. SAXON:  Your Honours, this is from Rule 65 ter 988, and it's

24    time code 133 -- I think I may be confusing my good case manager.  Are we

25    okay?   It is time code 1 hour, 33 minutes and 18 seconds to 1 hour 35

Page 4861

 1    minutes and 33 seconds.  And it shows -- you'll see it will show --

 2            Your Honour, my case manager has explained to me that this exhibit

 3    has been admitted -- excuse me, that this video has been admitted as

 4    exhibit 278.  If we could call up that exhibit, please.  And this is a

 5    video of a visit by Minister Boskoski to a police training base, I

 6    believe, if I'm pronouncing it correctly, the town called Penus on the 8th

 7    of November, 2001.

 8            I was wrong about the date.

 9                          [Videotape played]

10            MR. SAXON:  Can --

11                          [Videotape played]

12            MR. SAXON:  Can we stop the tape, please.  This is not the

13    video-clip that I need to show.  I need to show the video-clip from 65 ter

14    988, and it's time code 1:33:18.

15            Do I have --

16                          [Videotape played]

17            MR. SAXON:  Okay.

18                          [Videotape played]

19            MR. SAXON:  If we --

20                          [Videotape played]

21            MR. SAXON:  If we could stop the tape, Your Honour.  Apparently, I

22    have made an error somehow in designating which video-clip.  So I'm going

23    to withdraw my questions about this at this time.

24            And at this time, Your Honour, I have no further questions.

25            JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Residovic.

Page 4862

 1            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.

 2    And until I organise my things, I would also ask for the assistance of the

 3    usher to distribute some of the materials that I intend to use in the

 4    cross-examination of this witness.

 5            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters kindly ask the Prosecutor to

 6    switch off his microphone.

 7            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I begin?

 8                          Cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

 9            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

10       Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, General Jovanovski.

11       A.   Good afternoon.

12       Q.   My name is Edina Residovic, and together with my colleague

13    Guenael Mettraux, appear on behalf of Mr. Ljube Boskoski.

14            General, before I start asking you questions, I will ask you, as I

15    usually do, to listen to a caution that I wish to issue to you.  I suppose

16    that you understand the language I am speaking and I understand the

17    language that you are speaking.  However, my question and your answer need

18    to be interpreted so that the Chamber and the colleagues in the courtroom

19    are able to follow our exchange and this would be the way for us to be of

20    best assistance to the Chamber.  Therefore, I ask you to wait for my

21    question to be interpreted and answer only then.

22            Have you understood this?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Thank you.  When asked by my learned colleague the Prosecutor, you

25    stated that you were a police general in the police of the Republic of

Page 4863

 1    Macedonia.  Is that correct?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   And that you were employed in the Ministry of Interior of the

 4    Republic of Macedonia, and you're still employed there since 1986.  Is

 5    that correct?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   You graduated from the police academy at Skopje in 1989.  Is that

 8    correct?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   You worked for five years as regular police officer at Centar

11    police station in Skopje.  Is that correct?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Until 1999, you were a member of the special unit Tiger.  Is that

14    correct?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Since 1999, until May of 2001, you were at the duty of chief

17    inspector of the posebna unit.  Is that correct?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   And as you told my learned colleague, in May you were appointed

20    deputy under-secretary for the police department in the Ministry of

21    Interior of the Republic of Macedonia.  Is that correct?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   In February 2002, you were appointed under-secretary for police in

24    the Ministry of Interior.  Is that correct?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 4864

 1   Q. You stayed at that office until May 2003, when you were appointed deputy

 2 director of the public security bureau.  Is that information correct as well?

 3       A.   Assistant to the director.

 4       Q.   Thank you.  Considering the duties and the rank you had and you

 5    have in the Ministry of Interior, I will ask you to answer several

 6    questions, and the questions are related also to the questions asked of

 7    you by my learned colleague the Prosecutor.

 8            The first thing I wish to ask you is whether it is correct that

 9    the Ministry of Interior performs its duties and competences pursuant to

10    the Law on the Ministry of the Interior and other legislation setting

11    forth the tasks for the Ministry of the Interior?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   However, the specific officers in the Ministry of the Interior

14    performed their tasks pursuant to the Rule Book on the Organisation and

15    Operation of the Ministry of Interior, that are setting forth precisely

16    their duties and tasks.  Is that correct as well?

17       A.   Any job has a job description, yes.

18       Q.   So you would agree with me, although the Law on Internal Affairs

19    establishes who are the authorised officer in the sense of that Law

20    enumerates all the officers who could perform tasks within the realm of

21    internal affairs who could use certain instruments, not every employee of

22    the Ministry of Interior could perform just any task.  One can perform

23    only the tasks that are set forth in the general act of the ministry, the

24    Rule Book on the Organisation and Operation.  Is that correct?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 4865

 1       Q.   And if there were other witnesses testifying about this --

 2            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, although there were

 3    other witnesses testifying about this.

 4            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

 5       Q.   I just want you to confirm that the Ministry of the Interior

 6    consisted of the public security and security administration and

 7    counter-intelligence as the state security, correct?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   And each of these parts of the ministry was headed by a director?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Answering questions by my learned colleague you stated that you

12    were in the uniformed police department, and my question is:  Is it

13    correct that the uniformed police department is part of the -- of the

14    sector for public security where there is also police forensics, crime

15    police, analytics sector and other forms and sectors dealing with the

16    activities of the internal affairs?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   The task of the uniformed police where you have spent your entire

19    career, if we interpreted your statement correctly, so can I say that the

20    uniformed police has -- has the primary importance for the maintaining of

21    public law and order, while the crime police had the main task of working

22    on detection of crimes, apprehension of perpetrates or prevention of

23    crimes.  Is that correct?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   You also answered that in August or during the summer of 2001,

Page 4866

 1    your direct superior was General Risto Galevski.  Is that correct?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   And the public security bureau, as a whole, was, at that time,

 4    chaired by General Goran Mitevski.  Is that correct?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   And I would like to ask you immediately, could you please answer

 7    what sort of professionals or professional standing enjoy Risto Galevski

 8    and Goran Mitevski your direct superiors.  Could you please tell us your

 9    opinion?

10       A.   It was a honour for me to work with them.  They were excellent

11    professionals and they were very good superior officers.

12       Q.   Is it correct, General, that both the director of public security

13    and the director of the state security are elected by the government and

14    not the Ministry of Interior?

15       A.   Yes.  They are government officials.

16       Q.   And above --

17            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, and the state security

18    bureau is controlled by the parliament as well and not only the government

19    of the Republic of Macedonia.  Is that correct as well?

20       A.   In the parliament there is a committee called parliamentary

21    committee monitoring the work of this directorate and that committee

22    exists to this very day.

23            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24       Q.   Answering the questions of my learned colleague the Prosecutor,

25    you mentioned the collegium of the minister.

Page 4867

 1            I would like to ask you to look at this document that is in tab 1,

 2    number 1, that is Exhibit 1D107, the page is 1D4371, that is the first

 3    page of the Macedonian version, while the first page in the English

 4    version is 1D4392.

 5            Do you recognise, General, this Rule Book on the Organisation and

 6    Operation of the Ministry of Interior?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   And is that the general act or the rule book that establishes in

 9    precise detail the tasks and the competences of the parts of the Ministry

10    of Interior?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   I would like to ask you now to turn to page 17, that is 1D4388 in

13    the Macedonian language, and the English version is Article 26 at page

14    1D4412.

15            I will ask to you look at this Article 26 now.  And with regards

16    to your answer, that usually you would attend once a week this collegium

17    of the minister, is it correct that that collegium is regulated by this

18    rule book and it establishes the composition of the collegium as well as

19    the possibility that an extended composition is also in attendance at the

20    meeting?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   Pursuant to paragraph 2 of this Article, one can see that the

23    minister, the deputy to the minister, the director of the public safety

24    bureau, the director of the security and counter-intelligence directorate,

25    heads of the police department, departments, head of the crime police

Page 4868

 1    department and the state secretary are in attendance while the paragraph 3

 2    reads that apart from these mandatory members, also the heads of the

 3    sectors could participate, and, if needed, also other employees could

 4    participate in the collegium.

 5            So my question is now:  Considering that since February 2002 you

 6    were under-secretary for police, you were one of those collegium members

 7    whose presence was mandatory at the sessions.  Is that correct?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   So we can understand that from that moment onwards, you were

10    always attending the meetings of the collegium, of course, when you were

11    in Skopje?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   And before that, in 2001, you would also be invited as one of

14    those individuals who would be invited to the meetings pursuant to this

15    Article of the rule book, depending on the issue reviewed at the meeting.

16    Is that correct?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   You could have also attended at those times -- you could -- or you

19    were present at that time when General Galevski was not present in Skopje.

20    Is that correct?

21       A.   As his deputy, that's my responsibility.

22       Q.   Thank you.  According to this, from your personal experience, you

23    could have spoken about the manner in which the Minister Boskoski managed

24    the ministry.  Is that correct?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 4869

 1       Q.   If I understood well, he issued orders -- he issued orders to you,

 2    as you, then, to those immediately subordinate to him and the members of

 3    the collegium, and, in that manner, respected the chain of command that

 4    existed before him in the Ministry of Interior and which had been fully

 5    respected at his time?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   If I can ask you now -- I would like to ask you the following.

 8    Would you agree with me if I said that Minister Boskoski fully respected

 9    the expert opinions and suggestions and recommendations of his directors,

10    his under-secretaries regarding the issues about which they had the

11    responsibility to inform him?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Is it also true that he respected the professional background of

14    those people, of his people and at no moment did he look at his associates

15    taking in account their national or political affiliation?

16       A.   That was not a great virtue of his, but he always asked us to have

17    the last word on a matter.

18       Q.   You know that during all times that he was the minister, his

19    deputy was Refet Elmazi, an Albanian, that he was always present at the

20    sessions and that the minister respected his opinion that he presented at

21    the collegium sessions?

22       A.   At the collegium, there were no differences between Albanians and

23    Macedonians.  We only took in account the functions and the positions,

24    under-secretary, head of a department and so on.

25       Q.   Could I ask you:  Did you belong to a political party in 2001?

Page 4870

 1       A.   I did not belong to any political party then, and I don't belong

 2    to a political party now.

 3       Q.   Before Mr. Boskoski became the minister, you said that you were

 4    the chief inspector in the posebna.  After that, during the time of

 5    Mr. Boskoski, you were appointed at the position of deputy under-secretary

 6    for the uniformed police.  And after that, in February 2002, were

 7    appointed at the position of an under-secretary.  Would you agree with me

 8    that Minister Boskoski, by appointing you at such a responsible position

 9    or positions within the ministry, most of all had a respect of your

10    professional expert and ethical characteristics in the course of

11    performing your work and he could not care less whether you belonged to a

12    political party, especially not the political party to which he belonged

13    to?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   As the case it is with you, would agree that the Minister Boskoski

16    kept the whole professional structure that he inherited when he took the

17    position of a minister, or were only some of them reassigned to a

18    different as important or even more important positions as a result of the

19    change in the government?

20       A.   During the time of the Minister Boskoski, there was no significant

21    reassignment of the professional -- of the expert -- of the experts as the

22    case had been before him or since him.

23       Q.   Could you say that at those positions of the ministry as high

24    officials, even before Mr. Boskoski came to be a minister, both Ristovski

25    [as interpreted] and Galevski, other managers of the sectors and the

Page 4871

 1    units?

 2            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, these names might not

 3    have been correct.  We will provide with you a correction.

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Galevski was deputy, he became

 5    under-secretary and Mitevski became deputy in the state security and then

 6    he came to the position in public security.

 7            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

 8       Q.   I would like to finish up this question with you.

 9            Is it correct that after the elections in September of 2002 when

10    there was a new government in power that at that moment many people were

11    replaced from the ministry although in some cases those were exceptional

12    professionals?

13       A.   Yes.  There is a statistics.  I'm not exactly how much but I think

14    it was over 50 per cent of the people that were replaced.

15       Q.   Thank you very much.  Therefore, looking at the Rule Book of the

16    Organisation and Work of the Ministry of Interior, then you would agree

17    with me that it is this rule book that determined who is performing the

18    basic activities within the Ministry of Interior, and what are the -- what

19    are the tasks that the minister performs himself.  Is that correct?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   It has been determined that the vast majority of the work within

22    the Ministry of Interior is being done in the sectors of the Ministry of

23    Interior and in the units of the Ministry of Interior in the

24    municipalities and only some activities are done on a republic level, that

25    is, in the Ministry of Interior of Macedonia on a republic level.  Is that

Page 4872

 1    correct?

 2       A.   Yes.  The strategic documents and materials are prepared in the

 3    ministry.

 4       Q.   When you were answering the questions of my learned friend the

 5    Prosecutor about the issuing of weapons, you said that there was a rule

 6    book that regulated the manner in which weapons were issued at the

 7    Ministry of Interior.  Is that correct?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   You would agree with me that the rule book's instructions or

10    directives as general acts were those documents passed by the minister and

11    through which he actually managed the ministry?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Regardless whether these acts were passed by one of the previous

14    ministers or the Minister Boskoski, those acts made all the employees

15    working at those positions as they bound you as a manager in this

16    position.  Is that correct?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   I would now like to ask you -- the English page is 1D444, and the

19    Macedonian page is 1D4390.

20            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, the English page was

21    1D4414.

22            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23       Q.   Tell me, General, is it correct that always, together with the

24    Rule Book on Organisation and Work, that this guidebook was accompanied by

25    an accompanying document, a form, outlining the chain of command, and as

Page 4873

 1    the rule book changed, this chart was also changed as well?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Now, we look at the rule book that is entered into evidence and

 4    which -- on the 16th of June 2002 was passed by the minister of interior

 5    Dosta Dimovska.

 6            Please tell me:  Is this rule book in force?  The date was wrong.

 7    26th of January, is the correct, 2001.

 8            In the course of the year, there were only small -- there were

 9    only some changes and addendums to this rule book.  Is that correct?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   If you look at this chart that is in front of you at the moment,

12    is this chart in according -- according to the rule book in the first half

13    of 2001, it indicates that for the minister of those units that were

14    uniformed, only the special unit Tiger was directly reporting to the

15    minister.

16       A.   Correct.

17       Q.   All other units of the police, the criminalistic police, had their

18    own chain of command within the public security bureau.  Is that correct?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   You said that until May you were the chief inspector in the

21    posebna.  Therefore, posebna, as the chart indicates, was in the sector

22    for the police department.

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Now I will ask you to look at document which is right after the

25    tab 3, which -- Exhibit 1D66, and the page is 1D2321, the Macedonian, and

Page 4874

 1    the English one is 1D2407.

 2            General, in front of you, you can see the proposal for the changes

 3    of the organisation of the work of the Ministry of Interior from August

 4    2001.  Do you see it?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   I will ask to you turn to page 1D -- the numbers with the

 7    Macedonian is 1D2322, and the English one is 1D408.

 8            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction, the English version is

 9    1D2408.

10            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 1D2408.

11       Q.   General, in front you, you have the rule book for the changes of

12    the Rule Book of the Organisation and the Work of the Ministry of Interior

13    passed by the minister Ljube Boskoski.

14            Is this manner of passing a rule book for the changes of a

15    previously passed rule books a manner in which the minister by changing

16    the general acts performed certain changes in the structure of the

17    ministry and, in fact, continued to manage with the ministry by passing

18    general acts?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Would these changes, in Article 1, stipulates that as it says

21    here, in the third line from -- below the third line from below, that from

22    August 1st, 2001, Article 1, the unit -- the special tasks unit Tiger,

23    from the Article 7 is moved to the part A, department for police, in

24    Article 4 and it becomes item 6?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 4875

 1       Q.   Is my understanding correct, General, if I say, that practically

 2    from August 1st, 2001, the only unit of uniformed police which was

 3    directly reporting to the minister, the special unit Tiger, it was

 4    transferred in the department of police?

 5       A.   Correct.

 6       Q.   Now, look at the next page of the same document, 1D82323, the

 7    English one is 1D2409.

 8            As you have explained to us a little bit earlier together with the

 9    rule book and changes and addendums there is also a chart, the

10    organisational chart, and tell me whether this chart clearly shows that

11    the unit -- that the special tasks unit Tiger is in the department for

12    police?

13       A.   Yes.  In the last box, special task unit, Tiger.

14       Q.   My learned friend the Prosecutor --

15            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, maybe this was a

16    mistake or maybe this was a question to your colleague, therefore, I will

17    leave this question for the end.

18       Q.   You mentioned in the second part on the structure of the Ministry

19    of the Interior was the administration for security and

20    counter-intelligence.  And if I would say -- I would say that their task

21    was to gather information and counter the work of foreign intelligence

22    services, their centres and agents, then to protect the constitution, to

23    counter terrorists and other activities that jeopardized the order in the

24    country, et cetera.  Is my understanding of the general tasks of the state

25    security correct?

Page 4876

 1       A.   Yes.  Globally, yes.

 2       Q.   Is it correct that besides certain methods used by the public

 3    security, the state security uses additional methods, has its own

 4    intelligence network in the country, among the enemy lines, abroad, it

 5    relies on information that it receives from other sources, of operative

 6    technology and so on.  Is this all that the administration for security

 7    and public -- counter-intelligence does?

 8       A.   Yes.  The way this administration works is very different from the

 9    work of the police.

10       Q.   When you have mentioned a little bit earlier that the minister

11    relied on the professional opinions and recommendations of your colleagues

12    and who were his associates, did this -- does this -- is this -- does this

13    hold true both for the public security and the state security?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   The information that you as experts from the police submitted to

16    the minister [indiscernible], that was Minister Boskoski or other minister

17    that this was a reliable information and there was no need that the

18    minister to check the -- and corroborate the information that he received

19    from you nor did the minister actually do this in practice?

20       A.   Correct, yes.  That's correct.

21       Q.   You were also asked about the manner in which the minister reacted

22    after he would find out about some issues from his immediate subordinates.

23    You gave several examples in the manner in which the minister managed with

24    the collegium and issued instructions about the manners in which the -- it

25    is ensured that the ministry performs its tasks prescribed by the law.

Page 4877

 1            You mentioned that within the ministry there was a department for

 2    inspection whose task was to check whether the bodies of the ministry work

 3    according to the law.  Did I understand this well?

 4       A.   Yes.  This is the unit for professional standards.

 5       Q.   In a case -- in the case that a manager of this unit for

 6    professional standards or one of you, his associates or somebody outside

 7    of the ministry points out to some failures to do something, or an abuse

 8    of authority of the police, my question is:  Did the minister undertake

 9    any other measures within his authority; for example, asking to set up a

10    committee to investigate an issue that had reached the minister, or

11    requested from you, from officials with authority, to shine a light on a

12    certain situation, to be informed whether certain perpetrators or

13    initiators of an activity, et cetera, et cetera, was this also a manner

14    through which the minister attempted to learn some information, or suggest

15    to you who the professionals working at the ministry, how to react?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   Were you ever selected for a committee that had the task to

18    investigate a certain problem?

19       A.   Maybe not during his time, but later, yes.

20       Q.   Very well.  Thank you very much.  We will return to these

21    questions a little bit later.

22            Since you already told us about the uniformed police and probably

23    hear more about this in the future, and I would like to talk to you about

24    this now, would it be correct to say that the realistic and true control

25    over the work of the police officers that maintain public law and order is

Page 4878

 1    done by the commanders of the police stations?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3       Q.   Where my learned friend asked you about the weapons that were

 4    issued in the police station PSOLO, would you agree with me that the

 5    person responsible for the control of how the instructions for the issuing

 6    of the weapons is the commander of that police station?

 7       A.   According to the act for the organisational chart, for each job

 8    position there is a responsibility and according to this act every

 9    commander is responsible for the work of his own police station, both for

10    the equipment, for the facility and for everything else.

11       Q.   Therefore, there was no need for you who were in the immediate

12    chain of command, it was not necessary for you to issue certain tasks or

13    instructions to the commander of the police station, because it is his

14    task, according to the rule book, all these things were clear to the

15    commander of the police station what are his tasks and responsibilities?

16       A.   Yes.

17            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, maybe this is a

18    convenient time for a break.

19            JUDGE PARKER:  Thank you.

20            We will resume at 6.00.

21                          --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.

22                          --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.

23            JUDGE PARKER:  Ms. Residovic.

24            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25       Q.   General, before the break, you recall us saying that the police

Page 4879

 1    station commander is actually the officer issuing task and managing the

 2    police in the performance of its tasks.  Do you remember it?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   Is it correct, General, also, that the police station commander as

 5    the direct superior of the uniformed police is the individual who,

 6    pursuant to the collective agreement of the Ministry of the Interior,

 7    gathers information and facts and makes proposals to instigate

 8    disciplinary procedure if some of the police officers or someone from

 9    among the police officers in the police station has been involved in a

10    disciplinary offence?

11       A.   Yes, it is correct.

12       Q.   Disciplinary offence is regulated precisely with the collective

13    agreement and the responsibility of the officers could not be ascertained

14    in a different way, only through the procedure that is prescribed by the

15    collective agreement.  Is that correct?

16       A.   Yes, it is correct.

17       Q.   The minister only establishes the disciplinary committee which is

18    a standing committee with a permanent composition and has a longer period

19    of -- of term of office, and that committee carries out the procedure that

20    is prescribed by the collective agreement.  Is that correct?

21       A.   Yes.  And there is a member of the trade union in the committee.

22    The trade union representative represents the interests of the employees.

23       Q.   And that committee produces a proposal to the minister and the

24    minister could accept or reject the proposal made by the committee.  Is

25    that correct?

Page 4880

 1       A.   Yes, it is correct.

 2       Q.   However, the minister himself could not make a proposal and could

 3    not sanction the employee without the procedure or outside the procedure

 4    that would be following the rules in the collective agreement?

 5       A.   Yes, it is correct.

 6       Q.   We also spoke a while ago about the notion that the minister, in

 7    order to receive more detailed information about an event or about an

 8    issue, could establish a committee, or a working group, task force.  Do

 9    you remember that?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   That right of the minister and of other senior officers is

12    established in the rule book and in the law.  Is that correct?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   And those committees could be of permanent composition such as a

15    disciplinary committee but could also be ad hoc committees established for

16    a certain purpose or for a shorter period of time.  Is that correct?

17       A.   Yes, it is correct.

18       Q.   I would like to ask you now, General, to look at this second part

19    in Roman numeral II, that is tab 5.  This is Exhibit 1D112, and the page

20    is 1D4304, while the English is 1D4306.

21            Is it correct, General, that at the beginning of the crisis in the

22    Republic of Macedonia there was a need for the facts related to the crisis

23    to be gathered, compiled so that the competent bodies of the ministry

24    could be informed and react to a given situation?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 4881

 1       Q.   You have in front of you the act, the decision to establish the

 2    headquarters of the operative action Ramno that the committee -- that was

 3    the headquarters that was established on the 7th of March, 2001 by the

 4    then minister Dosta Dimovska.  You can see that on the second page of the

 5    document.

 6            And do you agree with me that this headquarters of Ramno comprised

 7    the most responsible officers in the line of command in the Ministry of

 8    the Interior?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   I would like to ask you now to look in tab 6, 65 ter 1D476, that

11    is Macedonian page is 1D0 -- 1D4300, while the English page is 1D4302.

12            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the counsel, please.

13            The microphone appears to be out of order.

14            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15       Q.   So I gave you the page numbers, so you have now in front of you

16    the decision dated 29th of May, 2001, and on the second page of the

17    decision you can see that this decision was passed by the minister,

18    Ljube Boskoski.

19            The second page of the decision is 1D4301, and the English is

20    1D4303.

21            General, you can see from the composition of these headquarters

22    that the Minister Boskoski respecting the changes at the most senior

23    positions in the bureaus for public and for the state security and in the

24    police department appointed new composition of the headquarters, Ramno.

25    Is that correct?

Page 4882

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   And you then became member of the headquarters Ramno.  Your name

 3    is number 4.  Is that correct?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] And we can now go back to the

 6    first page, because we are now discussing the first page.

 7       Q.   And as can you see from both these decisions, the first and the

 8    second one, the Minister Boskoski was not among the members, neither in

 9    the headquarters Ramno that the minister Dimovska established nor in the

10    headquarters that he himself established.  Is that correct?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   Is it correct, General, that the headquarters Ramno received

13    information from the sectors and from the departments for internal affairs

14    of the Republic of Macedonia, information of relevance for the assessment

15    of the state of crisis?

16       A.   Yes, it is correct.

17       Q.   And -- and it received information from both the public and the

18    state security directorates.

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   For you, the members of the headquarters, the office of the

21    headquarters Ramno produced information, documents containing those

22    relevant information, important information about the events, the

23    territory of the Republic of Macedonia?

24       A.   If I'm not mistaken, every morning we received a bulletin

25    presenting information about the events at the territory of the Republic

Page 4883

 1    of Macedonia.

 2       Q.   And the headquarters, Ramno, so you, who were appointed members of

 3    the headquarters Ramno, informed the minister only about the most

 4    important information from among those that you received.  Is that

 5    correct?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   So would you agree with me if I say that the information arriving

 8    from the units for internal affairs in the municipalities and from the

 9    sectors never went to the minister directly.  They went to the

10    headquarters Ramno and the minister was informed only about the most

11    important issues necessary for him to be able to perform his duties as a

12    minister.  Is that correct?

13       A.   Yes.  This same decision, item 8, reads that there is a member

14    from the analytics department who gathered all the information that

15    arrived to us and compiled that information document about the most

16    important developments, and that information was forward to the minister.

17       Q.   And since you have just mentioned this, that was the practice and

18    that was the customary way of operation in the Ministry of the Interior in

19    every committee, in any working body, there would always be someone from

20    the analytics department, and the analytics department was the one to

21    forward the information produced by that -- that body or that committee to

22    the minister.  Is that correct?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Thank you.

25            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would like to ask that this

Page 4884

 1    decision about the establishment of the headquarters Ramno of 29th of May,

 2    2001 is received as Defence exhibit, Your Honours.

 3            JUDGE PARKER:  Mr. Saxon.

 4            MR. SAXON:  Your Honour, it's the Prosecution's understanding that

 5    this document has already been admitted and it has the number P00381.

 6            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] If that is correct, I would like

 7    to thank my colleague and then there is no need for this decision to be

 8    received in evidence again.  We will now verify this once again.  Thank

 9    you.

10       Q.   I asked you a while ago whether you have ever been a member of

11    some groups or committees, and we were just reminded that you have been a

12    member of the headquarters Ramno.  I would like to ask you now to look at

13    the document in tab 7, and that is Exhibit 1D113.  That is 1D4312, the

14    Macedonian page, while 1D4314 is the English page.

15            You have in front of you the decision of the Ministry of Interior

16    of 18th of June, 2001, by which the minister of the interior passes a

17    decision to establish a committee to investigate whether the complaints of

18    the members of the Albanian community in the Republic of Macedonia related

19    to abuse of powers by the members of the police -- of the ministry of the

20    internal affairs were well-founded.  This decision probably reminded you

21    that this committee existed and that you were the president of this

22    committee.  Is that correct?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Now I would like to ask you the following question, General.  If

25    we look at the composition of this committee, after your name, Zoran

Page 4885

 1    Jovanovski, there is the name Emini Ismet.  Emini Ismet is an officer of

 2    the Ministry of the Interior who is of Albanian nationality.  Is that

 3    correct?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   My first question is, is it correct that throughout the crisis all

 6    your colleagues, Albanians, in the Ministry of Interior still remained at

 7    their offices and together with you tried to resolve the crisis

 8    situation.  Is that correct?

 9            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction 68/8, ethnicity instead

10    of nationality.

11       A.   Yes, it is correct.

12            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

13       Q.   In the second page of this document, 1D4313, and the English page

14    is 4317 -- I apologise.  4314 and continues to 4315.

15            The tasks are established and the item 2 says that the committee

16    has the task to establish whether the allegations and the complaints,

17    individual and group complaints submitted to the Ministry of Interior by

18    the ethnic Albanian citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, as well as

19    non-governmental organisations and relating to claims that certain members

20    of the ministry have abused powers of their office in the performance of

21    their tasks, whether those allegations were well-founded.

22            Do you remember that this was the task for the committee?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Is it correct, General, that the first thing that this committee

25    did was to publically through the media address all citizens so that they

Page 4886

 1    report any case of abuse of powers by the members of the police?

 2       A.   Yes, it is correct.  There was a public ad through the media so

 3    regarding any abuse of office.  Not only excessive use of force or

 4    ill-treatment but rather any illegal conduct of the Ministry of the

 5    Interior should be complained, that they should explain to the Ministry of

 6    the Interior or to the regional organisational unit of the ministry and

 7    those complaints were then forwarded to us, the committee.

 8       Q.   However, is it also correct that you never received a specific

 9    complaint regarding specific event or against a specific person, rather,

10    all complaints spoke generally about the abuses of the police powers?

11       A.   Specifically had there been any kind of a report to -- there was

12    no report made to our committee.

13       Q.   Was this the reason because of which you, General, organised a

14    meeting with the Albanian intellectuals in Skopje so you can discuss with

15    them and find out the reasons for which the Albanian population does not

16    wish to report specific cases although in the public there were rumours

17    that those things were actually happening?

18       A.   In the spirit of the proper working of the Ministry of Interior,

19    we, as a working group established -- we initiated meetings with

20    intellectuals, so to speak, but most of them were young people, young

21    Albanians with whom we discussed so they could convince their neighbours

22    to report all the improper working of the members of the Ministry of

23    Interior, and that they should report these incidents to the Ministry of

24    Interior or to the regional office.

25       Q.   Is it correct that in spite of these efforts undertaken by you,

Page 4887

 1    that you did not get specific names and that it was impossible for the

 2    responsible bodies of the ministry to propose the investigation according

 3    to their authority?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   Is it also true that because of this you suggested that working

 6    together with the OSCE undertake a number of preventative measures in

 7    order to prevent such cases or stop them from happening, that the minister

 8    accepted these suggestions, and that subsequently at all police stations

 9    and at all check-points instructions were sent outlining how they should

10    behave towards the people, or what -- what civil rights the police should

11    protect during their interaction with the people?

12       A.   During this time in 2001, the OSCE was very active and working

13    together with them, we prepared the material which was then distributed to

14    all organisational units of the Ministry of Interior, which, in turn, had

15    the tasks to disseminate among the population.  And in this -- these

16    document said that all individuals who are detained for any reason should

17    be aware of their rights and responsibilities with respect to the Ministry

18    of Interior, that they have the right call a lawyer, that they have a

19    right to make a phone call, and they have the right to -- I cannot now

20    remember exactly what their rights were, but all their -- all the rights

21    that a person has were outlined there.

22       Q.   My learned friend the Prosecutor asked you about the events that

23    transpired on 25th of June in Skopje.  Is it correct that the police - and

24    at that time you were the second person in the police in the Republic of

25    Macedonia - that in the course of such situations where the public law and

Page 4888

 1    order were seriously infringed upon to protect those and secure those

 2    parts of the city were populated by Albanians in order to prevent the mob

 3    to cause any damage to the Albanian population?

 4       A.   If we speak about this critical date, we were defending the

 5    parliament where there was a huge crowd gathered around, and we also had

 6    police forces in those parts where Albanians and Macedonians lived

 7    together, and in order to avoid mass fights or mass problems with the law

 8    and order.

 9       Q.   You were probably aware that those responsible in -- that citizens

10    in those parts, in Skopje, Bitola, or in all the cities where there were

11    major problems with the public law and order in the cities where there was

12    a damage caused of the property of the Albanians or in those places where

13    their security was jeopardized, then in those situations there was a

14    request that the -- that the -- that the bodies that had the authority

15    within the Ministry of Interior should undertake all the necessary

16    measures in order to find the perpetrators and -- so they can be punished.

17       A.   As far as I know, over 80 percent of such events were clarified,

18    were -- were finalised and there was a criminal report initiated against

19    the perpetrators of the Macedonian ethnicity.

20       Q.   If I remind you that only the department -- the security

21    department in Bitola initiated over 100 criminal reports and in Skopje

22    there were a number of criminal misdemeanour reports, then would you agree

23    with me that my information is correct?

24       A.   Yes.  This is exactly what I had in mind.  I did not know the

25    exact number but I would say that in percentages that's what it was.

Page 4889

 1       Q.   Now I would like to ask you to look at the document after the tab

 2    8, which is Exhibit 1D114.  1D4316 in Macedonian, and 1D4318 in the

 3    English.

 4            Can you also see this one decision of the Minister Boskoski on the

 5    26th of June of 2001, this is the reaction of the minister, in order to

 6    determine what had happened and the reasons for which this huge

 7    demonstrations of the citizens, the police and the army took place between

 8    the 25th and the 26th of June, 2001.  Is this correct?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   General, is it true that we met briefly yesterday?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   During our meetings I showed you certain documents.  Is that

13    correct?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Now I will ask you to look at the document after the tab 9; this

16    is Exhibit 1D115.  That is exhibit -- that is 1D4328.  1D4328, and the

17    Macedonian page is 1D4326.

18            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction --

19            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpetation] The Macedonian 1D4328, and the

20    English one, 1D4330.

21       Q.   This is the decision for establishing a working group for the --

22    from May 28th, 2001.  And on the second page, we can see that this was

23    also a decision made by the minister, Ljube Boskoski.

24            Please, I would like you to look at -- I would like to ask you to

25    look at the document past tab 10.  It is Exhibit 1D116.  The page is

Page 4890

 1    1D4324 in the Macedonian, and 1D4325 -- no, it is 1D4326 is in English.

 2            You remember that I showed you these documents.

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   You said in 2001 you did not -- you were not aware that there was

 5    a work group established for the purpose of collecting evidence for

 6    potential war crimes that were perpetrated on the territory of the

 7    Republic of Macedonia but that you, later on, when there was a change in

 8    the government, you heard from some members of the committee who addressed

 9    the public that the new government destroyed the documents that they had

10    collected.  Do you remember telling me that yesterday?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   You also said that did not deal with this issue because you were

13    dealing with issues of the uniformed police and you only noticed and

14    stated that there was such a discussion in the public.  Is that correct?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   But you will probably agree with me, General, that during this

17    crisis time it was very important that a minister establishes a group of

18    people who would deal with the issue of investigating all events that

19    would -- that would constitute a criminal act?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   Thank you very much.

22            Earlier you have stated that in 2001 there was a special unit,

23    Tiger.  Do you remember talking about that?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   A number of people testified about the special unit Tiger in front

Page 4891

 1    of this Chamber.  I will not ask you questions about the statements made

 2    by these people who testified.

 3            Since you were a member of the Tigers until 1999, you knew that

 4    the special unit Tiger existed much earlier, much before Mr. Boskoski

 5    became the minister.  Is that correct?

 6       A.   I remember from 1986.  I think it might have been in existence

 7    since 1983.

 8       Q.   Thank you.  Until the battalion for rapid intervention within the

 9    ministry, that was the only special unit.  Is that correct?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   A little bit earlier in the chart we noticed that this unit, until

12    the August 1st was directly reporting to the minister, and after that was

13    transferred to the department for police.

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Bearing in mind the types of work that you did, could you tell me

16    whether you are aware that on the 10th and 11th August in Radishan, there

17    was a major attack of the NLA at the police station and the security

18    forces?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Regarding the -- considering the types of work that you were

21    doing, could I remind you that the Tiger unit was involved in these

22    fights?

23       A.   Yes, it was involved in the activities.

24       Q.   Are you aware that your under-secretary Risto Galevski was at

25    Radusa together with the unit Tiger?

Page 4892

 1       A.   Yes.

 2       Q.   Bearing in mind military activities and responsibilities of the

 3    Tiger unit that they had in Radusa, would you testify in front of this

 4    Court that Tiger could not have been at Ljuboten on August 12th?

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   I would like to you look at document beyond tab 3.  Actually, the

 7    Roman III; the tab is number 14.  That is Exhibit 1D108.  This is a

 8    single-page document so I don't need to state the page numbers.

 9            This is a memo that was sent on the 5th of May, 2003 to the

10    department for police.  That is actually the department where you were the

11    under-secretary at that time.

12       A.   Yes.  This was sent after we had received the decision to

13    investigate the Ljuboten events, and it was sent to all units who has to

14    answer who has deployed forces where on that critical date, and this is a

15    response to this request of ours.

16       Q.   And from this information, you can see that it was sent by the

17    commander of the special unit, Goran Zdravkovski and that it went through

18    regular channels as the communication in the ministry goes normally.  So

19    it was sent to you in the police department, and it was not sent to the

20    committee.  Is that correct?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And in relation to this, considering what you have stated now and

23    considering what you have known then in August 2001, are the contents of

24    this information accurate?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 4893

 1       Q.   I would like to ask you now to look at document in tab 15.  That

 2    is it Exhibit 1D56.  This is, again, a single-page document.

 3            This is a document that was also sent to the police department on

 4    the 7th of November, 2001, by the commander of the special task force

 5    Tigers, Toni Stankovski.  Is that correct?

 6       A.   Yes.  We requested once again information from this unit because

 7    in the previous information it was written until only the 12th and it was

 8    nothing written there about the 13th; so we asked the commander to clarify

 9    once again where was the unit deployed during those critical dates.

10       Q.   And considering your duties in August 2001, could you testify that

11    the contents of this information are accurate?

12       A.   Yes.

13       Q.   Thank you.  General, answering the questions of my learned

14    colleague, you also stated that for a while you were also working in the

15    posebna unit.  Is that correct?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And several people have testified about that unit before this

18    Court already, so I will ask you only about some issues, so maybe some

19    issues that remained open so that they are clarified.

20            You stated that you were the chief inspector of the posebna unit.

21    Is that correct?

22       A.   Yes, of the east posebna unit.

23       Q.   That title, chief inspector, is required for a person to be the

24    commander of the posebna unit.

25       A.   The act on the establishment of the posebna unit reads that the

Page 4894

 1    head of the posebna unit is the head in the rank of chief, while the three

 2    units are headed by chief inspectors.  So the job in the Ministry of

 3    Interior is systematized as in the organisational structure as chief

 4    inspector.

 5       Q.   So the decision about the posebna unit specifies which is the

 6    level that should be met or possessed by someone in the Ministry of the

 7    Interior, in order to be a battalion commander, and which is the level for

 8    a person to be the head of all three battalions.  Is that correct?

 9       A.   Yes.

10       Q.   And this was also established in the rule book.  Is that correct?

11       A.   Yes.  A person needs to have university education, certain numbers

12    of years of service in that area, to -- for both the police chief or the

13    head of department or chief inspector.

14       Q.   I would like to ask you now to look at this document in tab 5, and

15    the white tab is 27.  And that is Exhibit 1D62.  The page is 1D2357, while

16    the English page is 1D2364.

17            As you explained earlier, the rule books are amended through

18    amendments of the rule books, while here you have in front of you the

19    rules amending the rules on systemization of jobs in the Ministry of

20    Interior.  Is that correct?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   I would like to ask you now to look at the page 2 of this

23    document.  That is 1D2358 in Macedonian, and 1D2365 in English.

24            And the Article 1, at the end, before this table starts, specifies

25    that these amendments are amending the previous rule books that are

Page 4895

 1    enumerated in the Article 1, the most recent is the one of the 28th of

 2    August, 2001.  And the Article 2 is amended in the public security bureau

 3    in part I, police department, item 5, sector for special units is hereby

 4    amended and now reads.

 5            Do you see this?

 6       A.   Yes.

 7       Q.   And now we have in the table, first, under the number 5, sector

 8    for special units, and below that we have what you have seen -- what you

 9    spoke about, what are the qualifications for each of the heads necessary

10    for them to perform the task in the posebna unit.  Is that correct?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   And it was stipulated in this way in all previous rule books that

13    were enumerated in Article 1 here.  Is that correct?

14       A.   Yes.

15       Q.   Could you now please turn to the second page.  That is 1D2359,

16    Macedonian, and 1D2366, English.   And in the upper part, you have 5.1,

17    rapid interventions battalion-Lions with the overall structure and the

18    conditions that or prerequisites that those persons need to meet.  Is that

19    correct?

20       A.   Yes.

21       Q.   And if I tell you now that the amendments to the rule book were

22    introduced in order to establish this rapid interventions battalion, then

23    this would be correct?

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   So this amendment to the rule does not change anything about the

Page 4896

 1    posebna units.

 2       A.   Yes, it doesn't change anything.  It only amends.

 3       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  And let's conclude with this.  If somebody

 4    would suggest that this rule book has introduced the title of chief

 5    inspector in the sector for posebna unit, then such claim would not be

 6    correct.  What have you testified about today is correct.  Isn't it so?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   And the posebna unit existed for several decades, the Republic of

 9    Macedonia inherited it, so to speak, from the Socialist Federative of

10    Yugoslavia.  Is that correct?

11       A.   Yes.  When I was employed, I immediately became member of the

12    posebna unit.

13       Q.   And is it also correct that those were regular police officers

14    with full employment status in the Ministry of Interior and that they were

15    only deployed in the situations when it was necessary to provide a special

16    safeguarding of the public law and order or when public law and order were

17    disturbed to a greater extent?

18       A.   In the right to perform duties we have several types of security,

19    regular, extraordinary and special.  And these two types, extraordinary

20    and special, mean involvement of the posebna unit and recently when an

21    assessment will be made that there will be a disturbance of public law and

22    order these posebna units are activated.

23            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters wish for clarification whether

24    it is posebna units or special units.  We have an agreement about this.

25            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Posebna.

Page 4897

 1       Q.   Could you please tell me now, General, is it correct that the

 2    posebna unit was always within the police department?

 3       A.   Yes, within the sector for special tasks.  For posebna -- posebna

 4    tasks.

 5       Q.   And could you tell me also whether in 2001, during the crisis

 6    posebna unit was placed at a permanent state of readiness?

 7       A.   Yes.

 8       Q.   Is it correct also that all orders related to posebna were issued

 9    within the police department, either by the head of the posebna units, or

10    the under-secretary for uniformed police?

11       A.   Yes.

12       Q.   And is it correct also, if I say that the battalions of the

13    posebna unit or parts of the battalions of the posebna unit were also

14    deployed in accordance with the orders of their superior officers also in

15    some of the battles in the crisis region?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And is it correct that in the joint operations with the army of

18    the Republic of Macedonia parts of posebna were also placed under the

19    command of the military, of the army commanders?

20       A.   It is correct, yes.

21       Q.   And then the line of command was such that the commander of the

22    battalion of the posebna unit, or of another posebna unit had a direct

23    command over the members of its unit or battalion, or a platoon, while the

24    orders were received from the army superior officers.

25       A.   Yes.  So we received the orders from the army superiors, while the

Page 4898

 1    operational superiors, the direct superiors who are managing the units

 2    from within the posebna were issuing orders to their own police officers,

 3    and the police officers would perform those orders.

 4       Q.   And you, as the superior of posebna, or as the chief inspector of

 5    posebna, were placed under the command of the army superiors in May 2001

 6    in battles around Vaksince.  Is that correct?

 7       A.   It is correct, yes.

 8            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe this would be

 9    the appropriate time to adjourn.

10            JUDGE PARKER:  Yes.  We've reached 7.00.

11            We adjourn now for the evening.  We resume tomorrow at 2.15.

12                       --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m.,

13                      to be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of

14                      September, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.