1 Wednesday, 26 September 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 3.35 p.m.
6 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Good afternoon.
7 Judge Parker is withheld by other urgent matters this afternoon so
8 Judge Thelin and I will sit alone.
9 Good afternoon, Mr. Bushi. May I remind you of the affirmation
10 you took yesterday which still applies today.
11 So Mr. Mettraux will continue with the cross-examination.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
13 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 WITNESS: NAZIM BUSHI [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Cross-examination by Mr. Mettraux: [Continued]
17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bushi.
18 A. Good afternoon.
19 Q. You remember during your examination-in-chief the Prosecutor asked
20 you a number of questions about Mr. Baki Halimi. Do you recall that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you explained that during the weekend of 10, 11, and 12th of
23 August of 2001 you had a number of phone conversation with Mr. Halimi. Is
24 that correct?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. And you said that Mr. Halimi was the person who was providing you
2 information about what was going on in the village. Is that correct?
3 A. He informed me.
4 Q. And you have also said that, as far as you know, Mr. Halimi was
5 not involved in your -- or in the activities of your organisation, the
6 NLA. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes, it is. He was not.
8 Q. But in fact, Mr. Baki Halimi is an NLA commander called, named or
9 known as Commander Lisi and he is your man in the village, he is the man
10 in charge of logistics and funds. Is that correct?
11 A. No, sir, it is not correct.
12 MR. METTRAUX: Can the witness please be shown Rule 65 ter
13 1D812.1, please.
14 Your Honour, before we proceed any further into this document, we
15 would like to indicate that this is a document which we have obtained from
16 the security and counter-intelligence service of the Ministry of
17 Interior. The redactions which have done into the documents have been
18 done by us as a matter of precaution because of the source that is
19 expressly mentioned in this document. We have the non-redacting copy of
20 that document and what we would propose would be to tender both documents
21 after we have gone through this particular document the redacted and
22 non-redacted version, and we would propose that the non-redacted version
23 be admitted under seal.
24 Q. Mr. Bushi, do you have that document in front of you?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. As you can see from the top left-hand corner of that document this
2 is a document that comes from the security and counterintelligence
3 division, also known as the UBK part of the Ministry of Interior. It is
4 dated the 22nd of August of 2001 and it relates to an interview that took
5 place between 18 and 1930 on 12 August of 2001. And the line of work is
6 political violence and terrorism.
7 Can you see that?
8 A. Yes, I can.
9 MR. METTRAUX: Could the registry please turn to the next page of
10 that document?
11 Q. Mr. Bushi, I'll ask to you look for a paragraph which starts with
12 the words: "Furthermore, he said that he heard ..."
13 Can you locate that in the Macedonian version?
14 A. Which paragraph is that?
15 Q. I believe this would be the third paragraph in the Macedonian
16 version. It starts with the word: "Furthermore, he said that he heard
17 that prior to the events in the village of Ljuboten."
18 Can you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I read it out in the English version. It says this: "Furthermore
21 he said that he heard that prior to the event in the village of Ljuboten
22 Musliu had contacted someone from the self-styled NLA by telephone with
23 the aim of involving the village in fighting. All of the aid, money, and
24 food was carried by Halimi Bakim, father question mark Islam, born on 3
25 December 1953 in the village of Ljuboten, a teacher at the primary school
1 in the village of Ljuboten. He also stated that he had heard that Lutfiu
2 Ekrem, father, Lustim, born on 1 February 1965, in the village of Ljuboten
3 was giving logistical report to the self-styled NLA, that is to say he was
4 taking fighters into his home who had been fighting in the village of
5 Tanusevci and Brest."
6 Can you see that?
7 A. [No interpretation].
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter couldn't hear the answer. Can
9 you ask him please.
10 MR. METTRAUX:
11 Q. Mr. Bushi, could you repeat your answer? The microphone didn't
12 pick it up.
13 A. Yes, I see it.
14 Q. And then it goes on to say: "To a direct question on the
15 operatives who were behind the placement of the mine the source said that
16 it was Xhavit Asani, however I do not know what they were planning up
17 there, at Basinec pastures."
18 Can you see that?
19 A. I can.
20 Q. And that information in this document, Mr. Bushi, it was accurate,
21 wasn't it?
22 A. It is not correct.
23 MR. METTRAUX: Well, could the witness then be shown what is Rule
24 65 ter 1D85, please.
25 Q. Mr. Bushi, what I'm about to show you is a statement taken by the
1 Office of the Prosecutor of Mr. Kenan Salievski. Do you recall that
2 Mr. Salievski is a village leader in Ljuboten. Do you recall saying that?
3 A. Yes, I know him.
4 Q. And you would agree that Mr. Salievski as a village leader would
5 have a pretty good idea about what is happening in his village. Can you
6 agree with that?
7 A. No, I don't.
8 Q. Well, I'll ask the registry to turn to page 2 of that document,
10 And if you could focus on paragraph 5 of this statement, please.
11 Mr. Bushi, I will read the part of the statement of Mr. Salievski
12 that he gave to the Office of the Prosecutor in November of 2004. He said
13 this: "The only person who had real contacts with NLA was Baki Halimi,
14 alias Commandant Lisi, from our village. Halimi was for a long time
15 hiding his activities but I found out that he had contact with NLA. Saliu
16 Naim, Rexhepi Supi, both from Ljuboten told me about Halimi's contacts
17 with NLA because they were close to him."
18 Sir, do you agree that Mr. Halimi was in fact involved with your
19 activities from within the village of Ljuboten?
20 A. This is not true. He was not involved at all.
21 MR. METTRAUX: Can the registry please turn to page 9 of that same
22 statement. That would be 1D00-1993. And I will ask the registry to focus
23 on paragraph 41 of the statement, please.
24 Q. Mr. Bushi, I will read another paragraph of the statement of
25 Mr. Salievski to you.
1 It says this: "Being asked what kind of support were Ljuboten
2 villagers giving to NLA, I say that I do not know anything about this
3 matter. You should ask Baki Halimi."
4 Well, the Prosecution did that, and I will ask the registry to
5 bring up what is Rule 65 ter 1D541. The Macedonian version would be
7 Mr. Bushi, this is the -- another statement taken by the Office of
8 the Prosecutor, this time of its own investigator, Mr. Thomas Kuehnel. Do
9 you know Mr. Kuehnel?
10 A. Maybe, if I see him. I can't say now.
11 Q. Well, he was one of the investigator who was present during the
12 signature of your statement in August of 2006. Do you recall?
13 A. Yes, but I have to look at him to tell you.
14 Q. Well, for the time being we'll look at his statement and I will
15 ask the registry to turn to page 20 of Mr. Kuehnel's statement. That
16 would be 1D00-4954. And in the Macedonian version that would be
17 1D00-4981, please. And if the registry could focus on paragraph 98,
19 This is what Mr. Kuehnel said about this. He said this: "Upon the
20 perusal of Macedonian government intelligence reports and upon receiving
21 information from Ljuboten villagers and leaders, I learned about Baki
22 Halimi or Halimi who allegedly had the title of Commander Lisi and who, in
23 2001, was and still is a village leader."
24 And then he goes on to say: "Mr. Alimi informed me that he raised
25 funds for the NLA during the period relevant to the indictment."
1 Can you see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So, Mr. Bushi, is that your evidence that Mr. Alimi who was
4 collecting funds for the NLA and whom you know and who was known in the
5 village as Commander Lisi, you did not know that he was collecting funds
6 and facilitating logistics for your organisation. Is that your evidence?
7 A. I would prefer to give a more lengthy answer, if Your Honour would
8 permit me.
9 Q. Well, perhaps, Mr. Bushi, if you answer my question first you can
10 then add to it, if you feel like you should.
11 Do you want me to repeat the question?
12 A. Yes, please.
13 Q. The question is this: Is that your evidence that Mr. Alimi, who
14 was collecting funds for the NLA and whom you know and who was known in
15 the village as Commander Lisi, you did not know that he was collecting
16 funds and facilitating logistics for your organisation. Is that your
18 A. Baki Halimi was not a member of the NLA, never was engaged in
19 collecting funds or providing logistical support. The people who were
20 appointed to be engaged in raising funds had the authorisation of the
21 General Staff or my own authorisation. Baki was not one of them.
22 Q. So your evidence is that the UBK was wrong, Mr. Salievski was
23 wrong, and in fact Mr. Alimi himself was wrong about his own role at that
24 time. Is that your evidence?
25 A. Your Honour, such documents, beginning from the 14th of February,
1 2001, until September, all those documents provided by the intelligence
2 and counter-intelligence service and the Ministry of Interior are
3 unacceptable to us. As to what you put to me about his statement, then it
4 is up to him to respond. I have no comment to make.
5 Q. Well, Mr. Bushi, you have addressed the issue of the UBK document,
6 but then is that your evidence, that both Mr. Salievski, the village
7 leader, and Mr. Alimi were not telling the truth to the Office of the
8 Prosecutor, as far as you know and as far as can you tell?
9 A. I don't know what they said.
10 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we would seek to tender the document
11 shown earlier to Mr. Bushi, which is Rule 65 ter 1D812 in the unredacted
12 version and Rule 65 ter 1D812.1 in the redacted version. We'd ask that
13 the first version be admitted under seal.
14 MS. REGUE: Your Honour.
15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Sorry.
16 MS. REGUE: The Prosecution will object to this request. Not
17 based on the authenticity of the document but based on the issue that this
18 witness cannot speak about the content. Well, first he has only been
19 shown a small part of the document, and secondly, he has not confirmed the
20 information contained in the document. I'm sure that we had witnesses
21 here who could have spoken about this document and we will have witnesses
22 maybe from the Defense side or the Prosecution side who would be able to
23 do that, but this witness so far has not corroborated the information
24 contained in the document.
25 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, if I may respond very briefly that is
1 very much the point of having the document tendered. The point is to show
2 or to demonstrate the lack of credibility of this witness. The point is
3 not to establish the truth of the content of the document through this
4 witness. This witness has indicated he did not know of the document and
5 does not trust its content. Our submission, Your Honour, is this document
6 is relevant. The Prosecution has not taken issue with this. It is as my
7 colleague has mentioned authentic. It is also relevant to the issue in
8 this case, in particular as to the presence or not of the NLA in the
9 village and more importantly, for the present matter about the credibility
10 and reliability of the present witness.
11 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, if I may answer with regards to the
12 credibility of this witness. First, another witness has to establish that
13 this information is correct. And then we can go to the credibility or not
14 of this witness, but so far this witness has established that this
15 information is not correct.
16 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: The exhibit will be received. It will be
17 one exhibit with two extensions, one under seal and one not under seal.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the unredacted version will Exhibit
19 become 1D223.1 under seal, and the redacted version would become 1D223.2.
20 MR. METTRAUX:
21 Q. Mr. Bushi, do you recall yesterday that both my colleague and
22 myself asked you in about the presence of members of your brigade in and
23 around the village of Ljuboten. Do you recall being asked those
25 A. Yes, I remember.
1 Q. And do you recall that I suggested to you that in fact the people,
2 the members of your brigade who went to Ljuboten on the 12th of August had
3 done so upon your order or authorisation, do you recall that?
4 A. There were no NLA members in Ljuboten, Your Honour. I'm
5 repeating. If there were such soldiers in Ljuboten, the Macedonian forces
6 wouldn't have been able to penetrate the village.
7 Q. Well, what I'm putting to you, Mr. Bushi, is that a number of your
8 associates or members of your brigade actually asked to you go to the
9 village of Ljuboten. Is that correct?
10 A. He asked one person from Ramadan Limaj and we did not allow that.
11 Q. Well, what I'm putting to you is that at first you refused because
12 you thought that the two special units, Teli's unit and Arusha's units,
13 which were already in the area at the time, could take care of the
14 security situation in Ljuboten. Do you agree with that?
15 A. No, I'm not.
16 Q. And those two units, Mr. Bushi, were in the area because you had
17 sent them there two days earlier to carry out the attack in Ljubotenski
18 Bacila. Do you agree with that?
19 A. No, I don't.
20 Q. But when you realised that there would be problem extracting some
21 of your men from the village you sent re-enforcements and allowed other
22 members of your brigade to go to the village. Is that correct?
23 A. No, there is not correct.
24 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown Rule 65 ter
25 1D507. It has an ERN range 1D00-4667, and the Macedonian version would be
2 Q. Mr. Bushi, I apologise there is no Albanian translation of this
3 document. This is the statement of Mr. Suat Saliu. Do you agree that in
4 July and August of 2001 Mr. Saliu was a member of the 114th Brigade, your
5 brigade. Do you agree with that?
6 A. To my recollection, yes.
7 Q. Well, perhaps then we can turn to page 2 of that document and
8 focus on paragraph 2, please.
9 Mr. Bushi, I'll ask to you look at paragraph 2 and I will read it
10 out for you.
11 It says this: "I joined NLA in June 2001 and initially served
12 with the 113 Brigade. The 113rd Brigade was deployed in the area of
13 Nikustak, Vistica, Matejce. I had a training session for about three
14 weeks at the monastery at Matejce and then in mid-July, I joined the 114th
15 Brigade. The commander of the 114th Brigade was Nazim Bushi. His deputy
16 was Ramadan Limaj who arrived from Kosovo. He is the brother of another
17 member of the Limaj family who is now in custody in The Hague."
18 And if can you look at paragraph 3 of that same statement, the
19 second sentence -- third sentence, I apologise.
20 It says: "The 113 Brigade was operating in the area of Aracinovo,
21 the 114th Brigade operated in the area of Skopje and Ljuboten and had two
22 special groups, Teli and Arusha, Bear. The 114th Brigade was specifically
23 formed to operate in Skopje area. It was formed after the Aracinovo
25 Can you see that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. If you could --
3 MR. METTRAUX: If the registry could please turn to the next page
4 in the Macedonian version and go to the next page in the English version.
5 A. Excuse me. I would like to comment on paragraph 2 and 3, if I
6 may. If I may, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Could you just answer the questions that
8 are being asked ... [Microphone not activated].
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Your Honour.
10 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: -- being asked --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Your Honour.
12 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Your statement you can make some
13 additional --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't respond about paragraph 2
15 and 3. I said only I see that.
16 MR. METTRAUX: That was not my question, Mr. Bushi.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are untruths here.
18 MR. METTRAUX:
19 Q. Well, would you like to identify those then.
20 A. Yes.
21 Ramadan Limaj was not my deputy. It was Halil Paloshi instead.
22 And he -- Fatmir Limaj was not his brother, as it says here. They are
23 simply from the same village, from Kosova.
24 And in paragraph 3, it is written that Xhemail Jashari was
25 commander of Brigade 113, which was not true. It was Sami Ukshini, aka
1 Sokoli, the commander.
2 Q. But you agree --
3 A. Brigade 113 until the formation of 114th Brigade operated. 114th
4 Brigade is a continuation of brigade 113 and Aracinovo was the zone of
5 responsibility of Brigade 114th.
6 Q. But are you not taking issue Mr. Bushi, are you --
7 A. Thank you.
8 Q. -- with the suggestion that he was indeed a member of your
9 brigade, is that correct, you don't take issue with that?
10 A. No, I don't take issue with that.
11 Q. If you could turn to paragraph 7 of the statement, please. It
12 would be in the third page in the English and I believe the fourth page in
13 the Macedonian.
14 I apologise, the third page in the Macedonian as well, please.
15 Thank you.
16 Q. Mr. Bushi, I would like to ask you to locate a sentence in
17 paragraph 7 of this statement which would be somewhere in the middle of
18 that statement and it starts with the word -- of that paragraph. It
19 starts with the word: "After the mine incident had happened."
20 Can you locate that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And I will read it out for you. It says this: "After the mine
23 incident had happened they all wanted to go down to Ljuboten to defend the
24 village against the attack by Macedonian forces. On behalf of the group
25 of fighters from Ljuboten, Islam Zendeli spoke about that with Bushi.
1 Islam Zendeli lives in Ljuboten now. Bushi said that anyone who would
2 take any action on his own initiative without orders would be arrested
4 "He also said that Teli's group and Arusha would do the job of
5 protection of Ljuboten. Islam Zendeli conveyed his message back to us.
6 We calmed down and waited for an order. On Saturday morning, nothing
7 happened, and as the shooting subsided, we thought that nothing would
8 happen. At about 8.00 in the morning, my father called me and said that
9 it was quiet. Fifteen minutes later, he called again and said that there
10 was a lot of shelling and shooting and that boy Erxhan Aliu was killed."
11 This would be in the next page in the Macedonian, please.
12 Can you see that, Mr. Bushi?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And do you agree now that you had tasked Teli's group and Arusha
15 to take care of the protection of the village of Ljuboten?
16 A. No, I don't agree with that. I didn't send anyone there. Not
17 Arusha nor Teli's group.
18 Q. And do you recall that yesterday you told this Chamber that those
19 two groups, Teli's groups and Arusha were two special units that were
20 directly under your command. Do you recall saying that?
21 A. It is true that they were directly under my command. I remember
22 saying this, yes.
23 Q. And you also recall to have said that the units and operations
24 would not go without an order from you. Do you recall saying that?
25 A. This is correct.
1 Q. So if indeed there was operation going on and that those two units
2 were in the area at that time, that would have been as a result of an
3 order of yours. Is that correct?
4 A. Of course.
5 Q. Well, then please turn to paragraph 8 of that same statement.
6 That is still the statement of Mr. Suat Saliu.
7 This is what he says: "At about 9.00 in the morning, all of us in
8 the group of men from Ljuboten and the fighters from Teli's group received
9 an order to leave from Nikustak. There were about 30 fighters in Teli's
10 group. In Nikustak, we received ammunition. From Nikustak we continued
11 our way to Ljuboten. Some volunteers joined us in Nikustak, in total we
12 were about 70 fighters. On the way to Ljuboten, we joined with Arusha
13 group at a place called H'iat e Ljubotenit [phoen] and continued for
14 Basinec. There we split into three groups of approximately 20 fighters
15 each. As we got closer to Basinec we split up into smaller groups."
16 Can you see that, Mr. Bushi?
17 A. Yes, I can.
18 Q. And you would agree that this information is directly
19 contradictory to what you have told this Trial Chamber?
20 A. I don't know what Suat had stated. I can see the statement but
21 what he is saying here is not true. I stand by what I said earlier, that
22 I did not send anyone from 114th Brigade in Ljuboten.
23 Q. Well, in that case we'll turn to tab 7 or, I apologise, this is
24 Rule 65 ter 1D94. It is 1D00-1316. The Macedonian version would be
1 Sir, what I'm about to show to you is an another OTP statement of
2 Mr. Islam Zendeli and first I should ask you, do you recall that Mr. Suat
3 Saliu mentioned in his own statement that Mr. Islam Zendeli had approached
4 you and not Mr. Ramadan Limaj. Do you recall Mr. Saliu saying that?
5 A. I recall that.
6 Q. Well, if I can ask the registry to turn to page -- well, perhaps I
7 will ask you this before.
8 You are aware, aren't you, that Islam Zendeli was a member of your
9 brigade. You know that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If I can ask the registry to turn to page 4 of the statement,
12 please. That would be 1D00-1319 in the English and that would be
13 1D00-1325 in the Macedonian version.
14 Sir, I will ask you to focus on paragraph 16 of that statement.
15 And I should ask you that as an introduction as well. You knew that
16 Mr. Zendeli was also a villager from Ljuboten, he was born in Ljuboten.
17 Do you know that?
18 A. Later I learned about that.
19 Q. Well, this is what Islam Zendeli says: "When the attack took
20 place my uncles called me from the village. During that night I had been
21 guarding in Vistica and therefore woke up a bit later than usual. I think
22 at around 7.00 or 8.00 a.m. My uncles told me that the village had been
23 attacked and then we got information from soldiers who were together with
24 me in Vistica. They told me that the village is under attack, the
25 Macedonian forces are entering the village and doing massacres, raping
1 women and so forth. At the moment we were shocked and decided with the
2 other colleagues from Ljuboten to go to defend the village. My commander
3 told me that, okay, since it is your village, you should go there to
4 defend it."
5 And the commander of Mr. Zendeli and the only one who could give
6 order as you said for such operation, that was you, wasn't it, Mr. Bushi?
7 A. Only me as far as orders to go to Ljuboten are concerned. Nobody
9 Q. And as Mr. Saliu said and as was confirmed by Islam Zendeli, the
10 discussion and the authorisation or approval to go to the area had come
11 from you. Is that correct?
12 A. That's not correct. Here it says my commander. Which commander
13 he is referring to, we had a battalion commander, squad commanders,
14 platoon commanders, company commanders and the brigade commander which was
15 me and I didn't have any contact with Islam Zendeli. Which commander is
16 he referring to here? We had a platoon commander, as I said, a company
17 commander, battalion commander and brigade commander.
18 Q. Well perhaps I can Help you identify the commander in question,
19 Mr. Bushi, and I put it to you that it is you.
20 If we can go back to Rule 65 ter 1D507 which is again the
21 statement of Mr. Saliu. It would be 1D00-4670.
22 Mr. Bushi, I will read to you a passage that I've have read to you
23 a moment ago from the statement of Mr. Suat Saliu. It is taken from
24 paragraph 7 of his statement.
25 And he said this: "On behalf of the group of fighters from
1 Ljuboten, Islam Zendeli spoke about that with Bushi. Islam Zendeli lives
2 in Ljuboten now. Bushi said that anyone who would take any action on his
3 own initiative without orders would be arrested immediately," and so on.
4 So do you recall now that the commander to whom Mr. Zendeli Islam
5 said he had spoken about this matter, the commander in question, that was
6 you, is that correct?
7 A. I don't know what Islam and Suat spoke about between themselves
8 and who said what.
9 Q. But the truth is, Mr. Bushi, isn't it, that Mr. Zendeli came to
10 you to ask you for permission to go to the village. Is that correct?
11 A. That's not correct. As I said earlier, one person went to Ramadan
12 Limaj, and I told Ramadan Limaj that nobody is allowed to go to Ljuboten.
13 Q. Well, let's go on reading the statement of Mr. Zendeli Islam.
14 This is Rule 65 ter 1D94. 1D00-1319, please. And in the Macedonian
15 version that would be 1D00-1325. That would be page 4 of the Macedonian
16 and page 4 of the English, please.
17 Mr. Bushi, I'll ask you again to look at paragraph 16 of the
18 statement of Mr. Zendeli and I will read out the rest of that paragraph to
20 It says this: "Five of us left from Vistica and we decided to go
21 to Nagustak where some other NLA soldiers joined us. These people were
22 all not from Ljuboten but also from other locations. When we left
23 Nagustak, we were some 30 to 40 people. In addition, some NLA soldiers
24 from other locations joined us. Some of us were from the 114th Brigade
25 but there probably were also member from some other brigades."
1 Can you see that?
2 A. Yes, I can.
3 Q. And again, Mr. Bushi, you will agree that the people whom
4 Mr. Zendeli, Mr. Saliu and other joined were the members of Teli and
5 Arusha's unit which you had sent earlier during that weekend.
6 A. That's not true.
7 Q. I'll ask you now to turn to paragraph 17 of this statement. I
8 will simply read it out to you. We're going to come back to this issue in
9 a moment.
10 It says this: "We walked through the woods towards Ljuboten. It
11 took us five to six hours to get close to Ljuboten. We got to the woods
12 close to Ljuboten, in the area of Basinec, about 3 kilometres from
13 Ljuboten village. The Macedonian forces noticed us and they started to
14 shell at us. They were positioned in points, so we were attacked from
15 Ljuboten side and from Rastak side. One of our soldier was killed. I
16 know that he was from Nagustak. And five or six got wounded."
17 Can you see that?
18 A. Yes, I can.
19 Q. Now you recall that yesterday I asked you about a number of
20 individual, Xhezair Shaqiri, aka Hoxha, Ramadan Limaj and Nazmi Sulejmani.
21 Do you recall that I ask you about those?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. And you said that these three people were in or around Nikustak
24 during the weekend 10, 11 and 12. Is that correct?
25 A. I recall that.
1 Q. In fact, again, that is not the truth, Mr. Bushi is it? Those
2 three people were leading the operation in and around Ljuboten on your
3 behalf. Is that correct?
4 A. No, that is not correct.
5 Q. Could the witness please be shown what is now Exhibit P215,
6 please. This is N000-6475-N000-6493-01. And the Macedonian version would
7 be N002-7240-N002-7256-01.
8 Mr. Bushi, what I'm about to show you is --
9 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, perhaps we should move into private
11 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private.
12 [Private session]
11 Page 5676 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
13 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you.
14 If I could ask the registry to turn to page 8 of the statement,
16 Q. Mr. Bushi, I'll ask to you look at paragraph 33 of this statement,
17 which is in front of you.
18 This would be the next page in Macedonian as well.
19 A. Just a moment, please. It is still not on the screen.
20 Q. I'm sorry, I think it starts on the previous page at the very
21 bottom of the page. I apologise. In the Macedonian version. Thank you.
22 Can you focus on paragraph 33, Mr. Bushi. Do you see that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And I will read it out to you. This is what (redacted)
25 said in his statement. "The operation of the NLA on Sunday afternoon, 12
1 August, was organised and led by Xhezair Shaqiri."
2 Can you see that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And that's the man who you claim was in fact in or around Nikustak
5 at that time. Is that the same person?
6 A. Yes, it is Xhezair Shaqiri.
7 Q. And then (redacted) said this: "He was responsible for strategic
8 issues in the NLA. As I was told, Xhezair Shaqiri on this Sunday
9 afternoon was with the soldiers above Pop Cesme. When the NLA soldiers
10 were wounded, he ordered them to withdraw to Matejce because he was
11 informed that the Ohrid agreement was reached and the war was going to
12 end. After that, he left for Kosovo and I did not hear anything about
13 him. Albanians respect him a lot. About 100 NLA members participated on
14 Sunday afternoon operation in the area above Ljuboten."
15 Can you see that, Mr. Bushi?
16 A. I can't see all of it, but I heard the interpretation.
17 Q. Well, if the Macedonian version could be turned to the next page
18 please -- or the Albanian version, thank you, to the next page. To the
19 top of the page.
20 Can you see at the top of the page that I just tried, Mr. Bushi?
21 A. I can, yes, I see it.
22 Q. And do you agree that the evidence or the information of
23 (redacted) directly contradicts what you've told this Trial Chamber?
24 A. To what I heard, he is saying here from what he heard or from what
25 he was told by someone else, and this is in paragraph 33. So it is not
1 something that he has seen himself. He was told about this by someone
2 else and this is a major difference and what is here in this paragraph has
3 nothing to do with the truth.
4 Q. Perhaps we'll go back to the beginning of paragraph 33, please.
5 The first sentence he says --
6 A. Excuse me, now it is okay, yes.
7 Q. The first sentence he says: "The operation of the NLA on Sunday
8 afternoon 12 August was organised and led by Xhezair Shaqiri."
9 Are you able to say that he learned that from someone else or from
10 Mr. Xhezair Shaqiri directly?
11 A. You can see from his statement, we have his statement before us
12 and in this statement he says as I was told.
13 Q. Are you able --
14 A. And secondly, Xhezair Shaqiri has nothing to it with 114th
15 Brigade. He was not a member of this brigade and he was not in charge of
16 any operations.
17 Q. Well, you have said that before, Mr. Bushi, but are you able to
18 say from this first sentence I have read to you where (redacted) got his
19 information from about the fact that the operation was led and organised
20 by Xhezair Shaqiri. Do you know where he got his information from, from
21 that statement?
22 A. That I don't know. It is his problem. I don't know where he got
23 his information from.
24 Q. And when he says "When the NLA soldiers were wounded, he," that is
25 Xhezair Shaqiri "Ordered them to withdraw to Matejce because he was
1 informed that the Ohrid agreement was reached and the war was going to
3 From this statement, Mr. Bushi, are you able to say where
4 (redacted) got his information from?
5 A. I don't know where he got his information from.
6 Q. What about the sentence "About 100 NLA members participated on
7 Sunday afternoon operation in the area above Ljuboten." Do you know how
8 he would know that?
9 A. I don't know that. Some say 30, some say 60, some say 100. We
10 have seen these figures in different statements. The truth is that there
11 were no NLA soldiers in Ljuboten.
12 Q. Well, Mr. Bushi, you're quite right that the figures vary somewhat
13 between the estimate given by various witnesses. But you will agree at
14 the least that the evidence of (redacted) directly corroborates the
15 evidence of other witnesses including Islam Zendeli and Mr. Suat Saliu,
16 which I have read to you earlier. Do you agree with that?
17 A. Everything you read is untrue and I will ask a question, if I may.
18 Had there been any, even a single NLA soldier in Ljuboten, why
19 didn't they kill an NLA member, but instead they killed civilians,
20 children and elderly people.
21 Q. We may come to that in a moment, Mr. Bushi, but for the time being
22 do you recall that I asked about the position of Mr. Xhezair Shaqiri
23 yesterday. Do you recall me asking you that?
24 A. I recall that.
25 Q. And in response you said basically that Mr. Shaqiri was not a
1 member of your brigade. Do you recall saying that? And you said that
2 today again.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you recall that I read to you a paragraph of Mr. Shaqiri's
5 statement in which he said that in fact he was an inspector of the NLA who
6 was active in all brigades of the NLA. Do you recall me reading that
7 passage to you?
8 A. I recall what he said. He can even say that he was the commander
9 of the General Staff, but the truth is that he was not. And such a
10 formation, such a position did not exist within the ranks of the NLA.
11 Q. Isn't the truth, Mr. Bushi, that you are trying to distance
12 yourself from Mr. Shaqiri because he is the link between yourself and the
13 people in the village of Ljuboten. Do you agree with that?
14 A. I don't agree with that.
15 MR. METTRAUX: Well, I will ask that the witness be shown what is
16 Rule 65 ter 1D761. It has an ERN 1D00-6818. The Macedonian version is
18 Q. Mr. Bushi, this is a statement taken by the Office of the
19 Prosecutor on the 10th of August of 2003 with Mr. Xhezair Shaqiri, aka
20 Hoxha. Can you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you will recall that I have shown you yesterday the first
23 paragraph of his statement. Can you recall that?
24 A. Yes, I recall it.
25 MR. METTRAUX: I'll ask the registry to turn, please, to page 3 of
1 that statement. That would be page 2 in the Macedonian version, please.
2 Q. And when it appears on your screen, Mr. Bushi, I will ask you to
3 look at paragraph 4 of that statement, please.
4 A. Yes, I see it.
5 Q. I'll read out to you what Mr. Shaqiri told the Office of the
6 Prosecution. "I came to the area of Ljuboten Sunday, 12 August. 114th
7 Brigade under command of Adashi, had the villages Vistica, Nikustak, and
8 the monastery in Matejce."
9 Can you see that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And Mr. Shaqiri goes on to say: "I was told by commander Adashi
12 that there were massacres going on in Ljuboten and that he, half an hour
13 before, sent some soldiers to see if they could help the villagers."
14 Can you see that?
15 A. Yes, I can.
16 Q. And do you agree that Mr. Shaqiri, as with the other people who
17 talked to the Prosecution, again indicate that it is you, known as Adashi,
18 who had sent a number of men towards Ljuboten. Do you agree with that?
19 A. I didn't send anyone in the direction of Ljuboten. But when we
20 discussed with Xhezair, we said that there was nothing we could do and
21 that was it.
22 Q. But you agree, Mr. Bushi, don't you, that, again, the evidence of
23 Mr. Shaqiri directly contradicts your suggest that you did not send anyone
24 towards the village of Ljuboten. Do you agree with that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And do you agree, Mr. Bushi, that if the presence of members of
2 the NLA had been noticed in or directly around the village of Ljuboten on
3 the 12th of August of 2001, that, again, would directly contradict your
4 evidence before this Tribunal. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. And if the OSCE, the EUMM and the ICRC were all to say that they
7 saw members of the NLA in or around the village of Ljuboten on the 12th of
8 August, that, again, would directly contradict the evidence which you've
9 given before this Tribunal. Do you agree?
10 A. Yes. But it was impossible to see any soldier of the NLA in
11 Ljuboten. You should be 100 per cent sure of what I'm saying.
12 Q. Well, Mr. Bushi, I will perhaps ask you the question again.
13 Specifically in or around Ljuboten do you agree that if international
14 organisations or international observers were to say that they saw members
15 of the NLA in or around the village of Ljuboten on the 12th of August of
16 2001, that would directly contradict your evidence before this Tribunal.
17 Do you agree?
18 A. I agree but I repeat: It was impossible to see any soldier of the
19 NLA Ljuboten or in its surroundings by any of such institutions.
20 Q. Well, I will ask the registry to please bring up what is Rule 65
21 ter 1D287. It has an ERN 1D00-2380.
22 Mr. Bushi, there is no translation of this document in Macedonian
23 or Albanian that we could find, in any case. So I will have to read it
24 out to you.
25 A. Okay.
1 MR. METTRAUX: For the registry's assistance, I believe there is
2 English translation of this document. It should be 1D00-2380. Thank you.
3 Q. Mr. Bushi, this is a document which was received from the embassy
4 of the Federal Republic of Germany and it is dated the 16th of August of
5 2001, Skopje. And the subject of the document is information on
6 Ljuboten. And I will read a number of passages to you from this
8 In the first paragraph of that document, the German embassy
9 through its military attache says this: "The varying perceptions about the
10 same events are still leading to varying assessments and to neutral
11 apportioning of blame. International press articles regarding the
12 massacre, quote unquote, of Ljuboten only serve to add fuel to the fire of
13 the two conflicting sides and the population."
14 And then it goes on to say: "Intensive conversation have yielded
15 the following course of events. Ljuboten has a majority population of
16 Albanian ethnicity and one part of the town is inhabited by Macedonians.
17 The mine incident of 10 August happened on one of the approaches to the
18 Albanian part of town. The NLA, National Liberation Army, tried to
19 capture the town in several hit-and-run attempts but was prevented from
20 doing so by Macedonian security forces."
21 It would have to be scrolled down a little bit.
22 And, Your Honour, perhaps before I proceed and perhaps after the
23 break I would simply indicate that in the next sentence which I am to read
24 to the witness, there is a very serious translation mistake that has been
25 made from the German to the English which actually reverse the sense of
1 the sentence. We have checked the matter with CLSS which have indicated
2 our own translation was correct, and we will request an official
3 translation of this particular sentence. I will simply draw Your Honours'
4 attention to the sentence which say, "There is now doubt," n-o-w, which
5 should in fact read "There is no doubt," n-o, in the German "es gibt
6 keinen Zweifel" and perhaps it would be an appropriate time, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: We go on to 5.00 --
8 MR. METTRAUX: Perfect.
9 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: -- if that suits you, Mr. Mettraux.
10 MR. METTRAUX: Very well. Thank you very much.
11 Q. Mr. Bushi, I apologise to you for the interruption. I will read
12 to you the next sentence in that document.
13 It says this: "The attack by the security forces of 12 August was
14 led by the Macedonian part of the town against the centre of the town.
15 There is no doubt that first three mortar attacks were aimed at the
16 security forces. It was the Macedonian forces which then followed by
17 using further mortars."
18 Stopping for a moment here, Mr. Bushi, do you agree that what this
19 document suggests is that your organisation, the so-called NLA, was in
20 fact the one that initiated the exchange of fire with the Macedonian
21 authorities. Do you agree that that is what the document is suggesting?
22 A. This is not true.
23 Q. And then if you can further down in this document, it says
24 this: "It is indisputable that there were violent attacks by the
25 Macedonian population on the Albanian population following the town's
1 seizure by the security forces. There are no details but it is certain
2 that one part of the Albanian population has left the town for the moment
3 in the direction of Skopje and the Radishani suburb.
4 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we would seek to tender this document.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a question, if I may, with
6 respect to this. Which of the forces captured Ljuboten? It is not clear
7 to me.
8 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: You are required to answer the questions,
9 not to put the questions. So thank you very much.
10 MS. REGUE: Your Honours.
11 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Yes.
12 MS. REGUE: Just for the record the Prosecution objects to the
13 admission of this document for similar reasons than before, the witness
14 has not established the reliability and the probative value of this
15 document produced by another source.
16 MR. METTRAUX: Well, in response, Your Honour, I would simply
17 indicate that this is a document that was provided to us by the Office of
18 the Prosecution, that it actually appears on its Rule 65 ter exhibit list
19 as 353.20 and that it was an attachment to the proposed statement of
20 Mr. Matthiesen. As for the relevance of this document, it is again, Your
21 Honour, obviously relevant to the issue of the presence of the NLA in the
22 village of the fire directed by the NLA at Macedonian forces, as evidence
23 has been given if this case and it is also directly relevant, we submit,
24 to the credibility, or otherwise, of this witness.
25 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: It will be received.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As exhibit 1D224, Your Honours.
2 MR. METTRAUX: I will ask the registry, please, to bring up Rule
3 65 ter 1D320. It has an ERN of 1D00-2966. And in the Macedonian version,
4 it is 1D00- I believe 2987. 2988.
5 Q. Mr. Bushi, what I'm about to show to you is the statement of the
6 Office of the Prosecutor which they took of Mr. Peter Matthiesen who have
7 I showed yesterday already and who was the military attache of the German
8 embassy at that time in Skopje.
9 MR. METTRAUX: And I will kindly ask the registry to turn to page
10 14 of that statement. That would be 1D00-2979, please.
11 Q. Mr. Bushi, I'm also trying to retrieve at the same time the
12 Macedonian version for your benefit.
13 For the time being I will read to you the paragraph in question.
14 That would be paragraph 62 and 63 of Mr. Matthiesen's statement.
15 Mr. Matthiesen said this to the Office of the Prosecutor: "There
16 is no doubt that the NLA was present in the Albanian part of Ljuboten and
17 in Nikustak. The reports talked about NLA Brigade 114, mainly consisting
18 of reservists from the KPC" -- that is the Kosovo protection
19 corps -- "that tried for days to attack the Macedonian part of the village
20 in a hit-and-run strategy. As this was directly before the signing of the
21 Ohrid Framework Agreement, there is no doubt for me that the NLA was
22 trying to strength their position by taking control over more villages and
23 terrain before the agreement."
24 And then Mr. Matthiesen says this: "I wish to elaborate about my
25 comments regarding the NLA being in the area of Ljuboten. In my
1 professional experience it is absolutely normal that in Ljuboten, like in
2 any other ethnic Albanian village, there were people who supported the NLA
3 or who were members of the NLA. I had no information at any time about
4 the presence of armed NLA soldiers inside Ljuboten. Members or supporters
5 of the NLA, if they were present might have been armed and they might not
6 have been armed. Some villagers of Ljuboten could have supported the NLA
7 by logistics and/or by supplying them with information. The nearest NLA
8 unit in the area was the 114th Brigade which was based north of Ljuboten."
9 Mr. Bushi, do you recall during that weekend organising
10 hit-and-run attacks in and around the village of Ljuboten?
11 A. It's not true. We didn't have any strategy at all with respect to
12 Ljuboten. The NLA was supported by the entire Albanian population, but it
13 was a moral support.
14 Q. Well, we'll come to the issue of the moral support in a moment.
15 But will you agree then or let me put it another way. Are you suggesting
16 that the evidence that I've just read to you is inaccurate?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I will also refer the Trial Chamber to
19 the evidence of, inter alia, Mr. Jurisic, Despodov and Bolton.
20 Q. Sir, do you recall being asked by the Office of the Prosecutor
21 about the death of Mr. Muzafer Agushi who was a member of your brigade?
22 MR. METTRAUX: [Microphone not activated].
23 Q. I apologise, Mr. Bushi. I will ask you the question once again.
24 Do you recall being asked by the Office of the Prosecutor both at
25 the time of your statement and yesterday during your evidence about the
1 death of Mr. Muzafer Agushi who was a member of your brigade. Do you
2 recall that?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. And both in your statement and yesterday in your evidence you
5 suggested that Mr. Agushi Muzafer had died on the 11th of August in the
6 area of Nikustak. Do you recall saying that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You would agree, I suppose, that if the evidence was that in fact
9 that Mr. Muzafer Agushi dated not on the 11th but the 12th and not in
10 Nikustak but in Ljuboten, that would be --
11 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, sorry for -- sorry
12 for interrupting the proceedings by the accused cannot receive
13 interpretation in the Macedonian language.
14 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Is this problem still there?
15 Well, is it resolved now?
16 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] It is okay now.
17 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: You may proceed, Mr. Mettraux.
18 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you to Mr. Apostolski for bringing that to
19 our attention.
20 Q. Mr. Bushi, I apologise. I will ask you --
21 A. May you please repeat the question, Mr. Mettraux?
22 Q. The question was this, if the evidence was in fact that
23 Mr. Muzafer Agushi died on the 12th of August of 2001, and not on the 11th
24 as you had suggested, and not in Nikustak, as you had suggested but in
25 Ljuboten, you would agree that this would directly contradict your
2 A. Muzafer Agushi was killed in Nagustak on the 11th of August, and I
3 fully trusted my officers who reported to me this death.
4 Q. Well, in fact if the evidence was that Mr. Agushi died on the 12th
5 of August in or around the village of Ljuboten, it would not only
6 contradict your evidence as to the time and circumstances of his death but
7 it would also directly contradict your evidence about the presence of your
8 men in or around the village. Would you agree with that?
9 A. As I said earlier, Muzafer Agushi passed away on the 11th of
10 August in Nagustak village. And I had complete trust on my officers about
11 their report --
12 Q. Well, I'll come back to --
13 A. -- and nothing happened and it has got nothing to do with
15 Q. Well, I come back to that in a minute, but before, I'll ask you,
16 do you recall being asked about another person, Bejtullah Ademi by the
17 Prosecution? Do you remember being asked questions about this person?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And you told the Office of the Prosecution that Mr. Ademi had been
20 injured on the 10 or the 11th of August, again in Nikustak. Do you
21 remember saying that?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. And, again, if the evidence was that in fact Mr. Ademi had been
24 injured not in Nikustak and not on the 10th or the 11th but on the 12th in
25 or around Ljuboten that would, again, directly contradict your evidence.
1 You would agree?
2 A. Yes, I would.
3 Q. And I'm putting it to you that the reason why you are placing the
4 death and injuries of Mr. Agushi and Ademi on other dates and other places
5 is to hide the fact that they in fact were injured and killed in or around
6 the village of Ljuboten on the 12th of August. Do you agree with that?
7 A. No. It is not true what you are saying.
8 MR. METTRAUX: Would it be a convenient time, Your Honour?
9 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Yes.
10 We will adjourn for half an hour and resume at 5.30.
11 --- Recess taken at 4.57 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 5.31 p.m.
13 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Bushi, do you recall that before the break I was asking you
15 about the circumstances of the death of Mr. Agushi and the circumstances
16 under which Mr. Ademi had been injured. Do you recall?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. METTRAUX: And I'd like the registry to show Mr. Bushi what is
19 Exhibit 1D7, please.
20 Q. As you can see, Mr. Bushi, this is a document prepared by the NLA,
21 UCK and that was given to us by the Office of the Prosecution and it
22 contains a list of members of the NLA who died during the crisis.
23 MR. METTRAUX: And I'll ask the registry to show two pages in
24 parallel, if it is feasible. That would be 1D00-1046 - thank you - and
25 the other one would be 1D00-1052. Thank you very much.
1 Q. Mr. Bushi, I will ask you to look first at the list on the
2 right-hand side. Can you see there is a list of names?
3 A. Yes, can I see that.
4 Q. And can you confirm that the first column concerns the full name
5 of the person. Do you agree with that?
6 A. I agree but I don't know which persons are in question here. I
7 can see the name of Muzafer Agushi here.
8 Q. If you can just focus on the top line above the name for the time
9 being, if you can help us with the translation. Would you agree that the
10 second column is the year of birth of the person. Do you agree with
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And the third column would the place of birth, is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And then you would have the year of death as the fourth column?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And then the last one would the place of death. Do you agree with
19 A. I can see that.
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter kindly asks the counsel to slow
21 down for the benefit of interpretation and the transcript. Thank you.
22 MR. METTRAUX: Yes, I apologise.
23 Q. Could you now, Mr. Bushi, go to the fourth name on that list. Can
24 you see the name Muzafer Agushi?
25 A. Yes, I can.
1 Q. And if you can look at the last column in front of his name under
2 the place of death, can you confirm that the death is registered as
4 A. I can see that.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. METTRAUX: It can be removed, thank you.
7 Q. Do you agree, sir, that in fact Mr. Muzafer Agushi was one of the
8 men that you had sent with other members of your brigade to Ljuboten?
9 A. I did not send anyone to Ljuboten, and the document we saw is not
10 an official document of the NLA. I don't know what was written on that
11 document, as a footnote, but it is not an NLA document.
12 Q. And do you agree, sir, that the person who Islam Zendeli said had
13 been killed during the operation on the 12th of August 2001 was in fact
14 Muzafer Agushi. Do you agree with that?
15 A. I don't know what Islam Zendeli said in his statement, but my
16 statement is pretty much clear.
17 Q. Well, then, what I'm putting to you, sir, so that it is clear is
18 that the evidence which you gave about the circumstances, the time and the
19 place of death of Mr. Muzafer Agushi is false and so is the information
20 which you provided about the circumstances in which Mr. Ademi incurred his
21 injury, both time and place and circumstances. Do you agree with that?
22 A. This is your opinion, and I do not agree with that.
23 MR. METTRAUX: Could the registry please bring up what is Exhibit
24 P215, please. This is N000-6475-N000-6493-01 in the English. And it
25 would be N002-7240-N002-7256-01 in the Macedonian version.
1 Q. Mr. Bushi, what I'm going to show to you is, once again, the
2 statement of Ljuboten villagers (redacted) which I have shown to you
3 already a moment ago.
4 MR. METTRAUX: And I would kindly ask the registry to turn to page
5 8 in the English. That would be N000-6475-N000-6493-08. And in the
6 Albanian version, that would be at page -11.
7 Q. Mr. Bushi, could you please focus on paragraph 34 of the
8 statement. And I will read out to you what (redacted) told the
9 Office of the Prosecutor in relation to this issue. "There was one person
10 from the 114th Brigade who got killed during fighting with Macedonian
11 forces on Sunday in the area above Ljuboten. The name of the person is
12 Muzafer Agushi."
13 Can you see that?
14 A. I can.
15 Q. And do you agree, again, that this directly contradicts the
16 information which you have provided to this Chamber?
17 A. I can see that.
18 Q. And he goes on to say this --
19 A. Yes, it does contradict.
20 Q. "I do not the exact of the location. Maybe also another person
21 was wounded there, but I do not remember the name. I think his name was
22 Bejtullah Ademi and he was from Singelic."
23 Can you see that?
24 A. Yes, can I.
25 Q. And, again, the information provided by (redacted) about
1 Mr. Ademi directly contradict what you have told this Trial Chamber.
2 Would you agree?
3 A. I agree.
4 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown Rule 65 ter
5 1D507. That's 1D00-4667, and in the Macedonian 1D00-4674.
6 Q. Mr. Bushi, as you will see, what will appear in front of you, is
7 once again, the statement of Mr. Suat Saliu which I have shown to you on a
8 number of occasion.
9 MR. METTRAUX: And I would ask the registry to show Mr. Bushi page
10 4 in the English. That would be page 4 also in the Macedonian version,
12 Q. Mr. Bushi, when it appears in front of you, I will ask you to look
13 at paragraph 8 of this statement of Mr. Saliu.
14 A. I can see that.
15 Q. I'll read to you the second part of this paragraph. We've seen
16 the first one already. This is what Mr. Saliu told to the
17 Prosecution: "Our position was very vulnerable. We could not engage
18 Macedonians by small arms fire from that position. We were trying to get
19 closer to Ljuboten but were prevented by Macedonian direct fire. During
20 the fighting, eight fighters of Arusha's group were wounded. And one was
21 badly hit by mortar shrapnels all over his body and died. His name was
22 Muzafer Agushi. One fighter lost his leg and I personally gave him first
23 aid. His name was, last name unknown, Bejtullah, and he now lives in
25 Do you agree, Mr. Bushi, that the information of Mr. Saliu
1 directly corroborates the evidence or the information given (redacted)
2 about Mr. Muzafer Agushi and Mr. Ademi and directly contradicts
3 the information which you have given to this Chamber. Do you agree with
5 A. It does contradict my statement and I will explain why.
6 He was not there, and he is not well-informed. Bejtullah Ademi
7 did not loose his leg. He was treated on the first day Likovo hospital,
8 but since he could not fully be treated, he was transferred to Kosova to
9 Pristina and I think two or three days later the doctors took the decision
10 to amputate his leg and you can prove this what I'm telling you now with
11 the hospital in Pristina.
12 Q. Well, the short answer to my question, sir, is that do you agree
13 that the evidence of these two persons, (redacted) and Suat Saliu,
14 directly contradicts the information which you have given to this Chamber
15 about the circumstances in which Mr. Agushi and Mr. Ademi were
16 respectively killed and injured. Do you agree with that?
17 A. I agree that it contradicts my statement.
18 Q. And do you also agree that it directly contradicts the information
19 which you gave to this Chamber about the fact that none of your men was in
20 the area or in the village of Ljuboten. Do you agree with that?
21 A. I agree, and it is true that I didn't have any of my men there.
22 Q. Well, the -- both persons, (redacted) and Mr. Suat Saliu,
23 have also pointed out, you will recall, that there was more than one
24 injured person, and I think both of them mentioned that eight of your
25 soldiers were injured. Can you recall them saying that?
1 A. I saw that. This is what he said in his statement. But how could
2 (redacted) know of such an information when he himself was injured and
3 receiving treatment in Nagustak hospital? He only got this information
4 from hearsay, from what others said.
5 Q. Well, that's what you say, sir, but for the time being, I'm
6 interested in the other seven or eight persons who were injured.
7 And can I ask you this. Isn't that correct that the hospital, so
8 to say, facilitates of your brigade were based in Nikustak. Is that
10 A. Yes, partly they were there but the main hospital was in Likov
12 Q. But let's stay for a moment with the medical facilitates at
13 Nikustak. Do you agree that the medical facilities were just next your
14 HQ, your headquarter there, do you agree with that?
15 A. They were nearby.
16 Q. You would agree that if any of those men, any of those eight
17 injured men had been brought back to Nikustak, you must have known about
18 it. Do you agree with that?
19 A. I would know about serious injuries, but not for light injuries.
20 In the case of Bejtullah Ademi, which was a serious injury, I was informed
22 As for persons killed, I was, of course, informed.
23 Q. But surely, Mr. Bushi, if eight of your men were injured in a
24 combat operation which you said could only take place upon an order of
25 yours, you would know that those mens had been brought back to your HQ to
1 receive medical treatment. Do you agree with that?
2 A. I agree with that, if such a thing had happened I would have been
4 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown exhibit 2D21,
6 Q. Mr. Bushi, the picture is, to say the least, not very good. Are
7 you able to identify either of the person on the picture there?
8 A. I can't see it. I can't see clearly who is on the picture.
9 Q. So you are unable to identify either of these men. Is that
11 A. I can only see one person here, kind of lying.
12 MR. METTRAUX: Well, in that case, I will ask the registry to
13 bring up, again, please, Exhibit 215.
14 And could with you move into private session, Your Honour, perhaps
15 for a minute.
16 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Private.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 5699 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
5 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you.
6 Q. But, Mr. Bushi, I don't think you have answered my question. My
7 question was: Do you agree that the information contained in this
8 picture - which can be removed - and the information provided by
9 (redacted) about this particular picture, again, contradicts the
10 information which you have given to this Trial Chamber about, in
11 particular, the presence of members of your brigade in or around
12 Ljuboten. Do you agree with that?
13 A. Yes, it does contradict, and this picture is taken in Nagustak
14 hospital. I cannot add anything else, as far as this photograph is
16 Q. But in fact your personal knowledge of what was going on in the
17 village was much more than receiving information back from your men when
18 they came back. In fact, the reality, Mr. Bushi, is that you were running
19 the operation through the people on the ground. Is that correct?
20 A. That's not correct.
21 Q. And in fact, Mr. Bushi, you had formed contacts with your deputy
22 or what you called your chief of operations, Mr. Nazmi Sulejmani, also
23 known as Hoxha, and Ramadan Limaj, your chief of operations. Isn't that
25 A. I had contacts with all the commanders within my brigade staff,
1 not only with these two.
2 Q. Well, what I'm putting to you, Mr. Bushi, is slightly different.
3 What I'm putting to you is that your evidence that Mr. Nazmi Sulejmani and
4 Mr. Ramadan Limaj were in or around your headquarter in Nikustak on the
5 12th of August is false. What I'm putting to you is that Mr. Ramadan
6 Limaj and Mr. Sulejmani, your associates, were in fact in or around the
7 village of Ljuboten on the 12th of August and that you had phone contact
8 with them during that period. Do you agree with that?
9 A. No, I don't agree with that. As I said, Ramadan Limaj was
10 mobile. He could have been in Vishtice in the monastery, et cetera.
11 While the -- Mr. Sulejmani he could have been nearby there but not at all
12 in Ljuboten.
13 Q. Well, what I'm putting to you, sir, is that not only did you know
14 where they were and not only did you know that you had phone contacts with
15 them, but you also gave them orders in relation to that operation on the
16 12th of August, 2001. Do you agree with that?
17 A. No, I don't agree with that. That is not true.
18 Q. And one of those orders which you gave to Mr. Sulejmani and
19 Mr. Ramadan Limaj was to start firing at the Macedonian positions in and
20 around the orthodox church in Ljuboten. Do you agree with that?
21 A. No, I don't. The standing order at that time was not to vandalize
22 any religious facilities not only in the areas that you mentioned but
23 anywhere where they existed.
24 Q. And what I'm putting to you is that this order to fire upon the
25 Macedonian positions around or at the edge of the village of Ljuboten was
1 an order that you passed on from Mr. Ostreni, Gezim, who gave it to you.
2 Do you agree with that?
3 A. This is not true. Had I received such an order from Gezim
4 Ostreni, I would have carried out.
5 Q. And that is exactly what you did, isn't it?
6 A. That's not true.
7 Q. And the reason why you gave this order to your men in the field
8 was to trigger a reaction by the Macedonian authorities. Isn't that
10 A. No, that is not true.
11 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown Rule 65 ter
12 1D507. This will be 1D00-4667 in the English, and 1D00-4674 in the
14 And I'd ask the registry, please --
15 Q. This is, Mr. Bushi, again the statement of your -- a member of
16 your brigade. Mr. Suad Saliu.
17 MR. METTRAUX: And I will ask the registry to go to paragraph 9 of
18 this document. That is page 4 in the English and page 4 in the
20 Q. Mr. Bushi, I will ask you to look at paragraph 9 of this
21 statement, please.
22 A. I can see it.
23 Q. And I will read it out to you. It is the first sentence in that
25 It says this: "As Macedonian forces were about to enter the
1 village, Hoxha," that is Mr. Sulejmani, "and Limaj ordered to open mortar
3 Can you see that?
4 A. Yes, I can.
5 Q. And then Mr. Saliu says: "They obviously discussed the situation
6 with Bushi with whom they were in contact on mobile phone. About six or
7 seven mortar rounds were fired. Our mortars targeted the army positions.
8 I think that fire rounds missed the target while two hit the army
10 Can you see that?
11 A. Yes, I can.
12 Q. And I apologise, I identified Hoxha as Mr. Sulejmani. In fact,
13 Hoxha is Xhezair Shaqiri. Is that correct?
14 A. Shaqiri, yes.
15 Q. And, in fact, Mr. Bushi, two of the men who you claimed were in or
16 around your headquarter on the 12th of August of 2001 were in or around
17 Ljuboten firing mortars at the army position. Isn't it the case?
18 A. No, that is not the case.
19 Q. But that is what this document is saying. Is that correct?
20 A. This is Suat's statement. He is saying that this was the case.
21 I'm saying that that is not the case. In my opinion, it is far from the
22 truth. I had personal contacts with Ramadan Limaj and with the other
23 commanders. We had Motorolas and we also had mobile phones, but it was
24 impossible to use the mobile phones in such situations.
25 Q. But if Mr. Suat Saliu is right and you are wrong, the information
1 which you provided to this Chamber about, the entirety of what you told
2 this Chamber in fact, would be wrong and false. Is that correct?
3 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, I think the question is a bit broad about
4 the entirety of what this witness has told the Chamber. I think that
5 [indiscernible] --
6 MR. METTRAUX: I'm happy to rephrase, Your Honour.
7 Q. Mr. Bushi, would you agree that if Mr. Suat Saliu is correct about
8 this matter, this paragraph I've just read to you, the entire evidence
9 which you gave to this Chamber in relation to what you claim was happening
10 in or around of Ljuboten during the weekend 10 to 12 August of 2001 would
11 be wrong and false. Do you agree with that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you recall that Mr. Suat Saliu in his statement mentions that
14 in fact your men, the members of the 114th Brigade, sent about six or
15 seven mortar rounds. Do you recall me reading that from his statement?
16 A. I recall, yes.
17 Q. And you will recall that this is also a matter that (redacted)
18 had mentioned in his statement. Do you recall that?
19 A. It is -- it is his statement or their statements.
20 Q. But the truth is, Mr. Bushi, is that that is what happened, isn't
21 it, you gave an order to your subordinate to start firing at the army
22 position just outside of the village of Ljuboten. Is that the truth,
23 Mr. Bushi?
24 A. The truth is that this never happened, and I never gave such an
1 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit 1D23.
2 Q. Mr. Bushi, there is no Macedonian or Albanian translation of this
3 document, so I will read it out to you. This is a document that we
4 received from the Office of the Prosecutor and which originates in the
5 OSCE organisation. The document is a spot report and it is dated Skopje,
6 14th August of 2001. I would like to read to you a passage of that
7 document which is towards the end or the bottom of the first page, please.
8 The OSCE said the following from their observations: "It now
9 seems clear that the ethnic Albanian armed group mortar fire brought to
10 bear on to the ethnic Macedonian part of the village originally sparked
11 the fighting and at least a covert presence of ethnic Albanian armed group
12 did in fact exist in the village."
13 Do you agree, Mr. Bushi, that this again would directly contradict
14 your evidence about the presence or otherwise of members of the NLA in or
15 around the village of Ljuboten on the 12th of August. Do you agree with
17 A. Yes, I would agree with that. But I want to repeat: That there
18 were no soldiers of the NLA in or around Ljuboten. Had there been such a
19 presence, things would have been different.
20 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit 1D162.
21 This is ERN 1D00-5420, and in the Macedonian translation N005-7446.
22 Q. Mr. Bushi, this is a document which originates from the Ministry
23 of Interior of the Republic of Macedonia. And it comes from the
24 administration for security and counter-intelligence. It concerns the
25 assessment of the security situation regarding the actions of the
1 so-called ONA NLA in the Skopje crisis region. And it is from August of
3 MR. METTRAUX: And I will ask the registry to go to page 6 of that
4 document in the English. That would be 1D00-5426. And I believe it would
5 be page five of the Macedonian. That would be N005-7451.
6 Q. Mr. Bushi, I will ask you if you can locate in --
7 A. Yes, but it is not clear in the Macedonian. The text is
9 MR. METTRAUX: With the assistance of the usher, I could give
10 Mr. Bushi a paper copy.
11 Q. Mr. Bushi, are you able to identify a subheading
12 saying "Ljuboten."
13 Can you see that in your version?
14 A. Yes. Yes, I see it.
15 Q. I'll read it out you what this document contains, what information
16 it contains.
17 It says this: "Operational information indicated that during the
18 month of July and August" --
19 MR. METTRAUX: On the screen it should be the previous page.
20 Thank you.
21 Q. It says: "Operational information indicated that during the month
22 of July and August many terrorist groups from General Jankovic through
23 Blace village arrived and joined to NLA of Ljuboten village. The
24 terrorist group led by Xhavid Asani and Nazmi Sulejmani transferred to
25 Kumanovo, Lipkovo region when they had withdrawn from Aracinovo village.
1 Then, at the end of July, they shifted from this region. They arrived to
2 Skopska Crna Gora region and there preparatory activities were undertaken
3 in order to extend armed action and execution of terrorist actions against
4 the members and objects of MOI and army."
5 MR. METTRAUX: And if the English version could be turned to the
6 next page, please. And in the Macedonian as well, I believe.
7 Q. It goes on to say this: "Ljuboten village was appointed as their
8 (the terrorists) main logistic base. Acquisition and storage of weapons,
9 mobilisations of new volunteers. The road that reads towards Basinec
10 village was mined by the terrorists in several places."
11 "On 10 August 2001 at 0800 hours on the so-called location
12 Ljubotenski Bacila, on the forest road between villages Ljubanci and
13 Ljuboten, Skopje region, army vehicle run over two pressure-type mines
14 placed there on the road by Albanian terrorists. Seven army members lost
15 their lives, and nine soldiers were more or less seriously wounded in this
16 explosion. Immediately after the explosion, terrorists opened fire from
17 infantry weapons against the member of the army. NLA members got
18 logistics support from the local population engaged in aim to provide
19 information. Actually, local residents followed movement and arriving of
20 security forces troops in that region."
21 Can you follow, Mr. Bushi?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And then it goes to say that: "On 12 August 2001 terrorists
24 station in Mojance and Orlance villages opened fires with mortar grenades
25 toward the armies, the arms and security forces check-points, Kruska and
1 Nikustak. They fired seven grenades and three of these landed in the
2 village of Branace [phoen] village whereas other four landed in the
3 village -- in the vicinity of village."
4 Is that also correct that you were also active on the front in
5 Mojance and Orlance villages on that day, Mr. Bushi?
6 A. I already said that we had the observation points in these two
7 villages, but we opened fire from Vishtice on the 10th, 11th and 12th from
8 Mojance and Orlance, never.
9 MR. METTRAUX: Well, let's go then to Rule 65 ter --
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, this would be Rule 65 ter 1D187. We
12 believe it has been admitted as Exhibit 1D224.
13 Q. Mr. Bushi, I'm going to show again a document I showed a moment
14 ago when I indicated that this was a document or information obtained and
15 prepared by the embassy of the Federal Republic of Germany by its military
17 MR. METTRAUX: The English version I believe would be 1D00-2380.
18 Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Bushi, I'll read a passage which I believe I have read to you
20 a moment ago in this report.
21 It says this: "The attack by the security forces of 12 August was
22 led by the Macedonian part of the town against the centre of the town."
23 And then the report goes on to say this: "There is no doubt that
24 first three mortar attacks were aimed at the security forces. It was the
25 Macedonian forces which then followed by using further mortars."
1 Do you agree, Mr. Bushi, that this document, as with the evidence
2 of (redacted) and Mr. Saliu and the other documents and persons that I
3 mentioned earlier, again confirm that on the 12th of August, the original
4 fire had been coming from your positions and that it is in reaction to
5 this fire that the Macedonian forces fired back.
6 Do you agree that's what the document suggests?
7 A. The document says completely the opposite of what I'm saying and
8 stating here.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, we'll also draw the Chamber's
11 attention to the evidence Mr. Bolton, Despodov, and Jurisic.
12 Q. Mr. Bushi, isn't the truth that the reason why you shelled or you
13 ordered the shelling of the position of the Macedonian forces in or around
14 the village of Ljuboten on the 12th of August of 2001 was to try to lure
15 the Macedonian forces into an incident, an overreaction with a view to use
16 it as a propaganda tool. Do you agree with that?
17 A. First of all, tell me, please, what kind of propaganda you mean.
18 And we didn't need to do that. We didn't -- it was not in our interest to
19 have Ljuboten become a battlefield. And I want to repeat that the day
20 that the Macedonian forces, police forces entered Ljuboten in addition to
21 killing children and elderly people, they didn't find -- after raiding the
22 houses they didn't find a single piece of weapon.
23 Q. Isn't that the truth, Mr. Bushi, that when you ordered that the
24 village of Ljuboten be shelled or the outskirts of the Ljuboten village be
25 shelled, in particular the positions of the army, around the village, did
1 you so in complete disregard for the well-being of the villagers of
2 Ljuboten. Is that correct?
3 A. The correct version is that we didn't shell Ljuboten. We had no
4 reason to do that, because we knew that the civilian population was there.
5 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown Rule 65 ter
6 1D712, please.
7 Q. Mr. Bushi, this is again a document that has no Macedonian or
8 Albanian translation and I apologise for it. I will read from it. This
9 is a report or a --
10 A. It is okay, but I kindly ask you to read slowly, if you can.
11 Q. I will do that. I will simply indicate to you that the documents
12 come from the Balkan human rights organisation which is associated to the
13 Helsinki committee. It's a human rights organisation.
14 MR. METTRAUX: And I would like the registry to turn to page 3 of
15 that document. That would be 1D00-6272. And there is a subtitle which
16 reads: "Rebels are causing civilian casualties," and I would like to read
17 that passage to you.
18 It says this: "A senior NATO official claimed that rebels were
19 trying to lure the Macedonian army into causing civilian casualties that
20 they could then exploit for propaganda purposes." Then there's a quote.
21 It says: "Let's face it, said the senior western European NATO
22 officers, KLA saw what the results were when the Serbs killed 45 Kosovars
23 at Racak and they are thinking of the propaganda value of something like
24 that being made to happen in Macedonia.
25 A. Racak.
1 Q. And it goes on to say: "Other NATO officials and Macedonian
2 defence sources fear that the thousands of civilians trapped against their
3 will in villages under constant bombardment north of Kumanovo just ten
4 miles from the Kosovo border are being held by the NLA rebels partly as
5 human shields and partly because the Macedonian forces would be almost
6 certain to kill civilians if they launch a ground assault."
7 Can you see that?
8 Mr. Bushi, that's exactly what you did in Ljuboten, isn't it?
9 A. I see that. But whoever has written that has done an absurd
10 thing. In Racak of course a massacre was committed and in Ljuboten too,
11 and all the world knows, not only Macedonia.
12 Q. What I'm putting to is slightly different, Mr. Bushi. I'm putting
13 to you that your order to start firing mortars at army position just
14 outside of the village of Ljuboten on the 12th of August was intended to
15 provoke a reaction by the forces with a view to use the incident for
16 propaganda purposes. Do you agree with that?
17 A. No, I don't. It is not true. We didn't need such a propaganda,
18 because we had already won the war.
19 Q. Well, perhaps you can help me there. Isn't that correct that
20 recently, for the sixth anniversary of the incident in Ljuboten, the
21 key-note speakers in Ljuboten for the unveilment of the monuments to the
22 victims were Mr. Ali Ahmeti, the leader of your organisation, and
23 Commander Lisi, your acquaintance, Baki Halimi. Do you agree with that?
24 A. I was present there too, on the sixth anniversary. We were
25 represented as a political party. Actually all of the political parties
1 were invited. Baki Halimi, Ali Ahmeti and others took the floor and they
2 referred to the massacre committed by the Macedonian police forces in the
3 Ljuboten village and nothing more than that.
4 Q. And do you agree, sir, with the proposition that I've put to you
5 beforehand that in fact that's what you did by shelling the army position;
6 you tried to lure the Macedonian forces into the village to create an
7 incident. Do you recall -- do you agree with that?
8 A. We didn't do that. We had no reason to do that. If we wanted to
9 enter Ljuboten and concentrate there, we would have done that earlier, not
10 on the days mentioned, 10, 11, 12.
11 Q. And do you agree that the order which you passed on to your
12 subordinates to open fire on the village of Ljuboten had been given to you
13 by your superior Gezim Ostreni. Do you agree with that?
14 A. No, I do not. Neither Gezim Ostreni, Nazim Bushi or others gave
15 any orders.
16 Q. Well, do you recall that you indicated that you had a number of
17 telephone conversations during this weekend with Mr. Ostreni. Do you
18 recall that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And do you recall perhaps that at the time the newspaper in
21 Macedonia published the transcript of what appeared to be the records of
22 telephone conversations, including between yourself and Mr. Ostreni. Do
23 you have a memory of that?
24 A. Yes, I read that newspaper.
25 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown what is Rule 65
1 ter 1D808, please. This is 1D00-7149. And the Macedonian translation of
2 this document would be 1D00-7148.
3 Q. Sir, do you recognise the article in question?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. The article records a number of communications between various
6 people, including yourself, and I will draw your attention to a number of
7 those. It says that "At 8.20 Fazli Veliu told Gezim Ostreni that Ljuboten
8 village was being shelled with all weapons available. Ostreni repeated to
9 Valiu that the villagers should stay in the cellars and that ONA members
10 should come out and return fire."
11 Can you see that?
12 A. I don't but I can hear through the translation.
13 MR. METTRAUX: Well, with the assistance of the usher, I can again
14 give a copy of the article to Mr. Bushi.
15 Q. It then says, Mr. Bushi, that "At 8.29 yourself, Nazim Bushi,
16 called Halimi Bakim, Commander Lisi from Ljuboten village. Baki told
17 Bushi that Macedonian security forces had been attacking since 800 hours
18 because they were 'inside' in a cellar. Nazim Bushi told him that he
19 would consult Kemal and Reshat about it. Nazim Bushi asked if anybody had
20 been injured but Baki said he was not able to tell because he
21 was 'inside.'"
22 At 8.31, there's a record which says that "Nazim Bushi talked
23 about unit in Ljuboten village to an unidentified person. That person
24 instructed Nazim Bushi to approach to within 300 to 400 metres from the
25 Macedonian security forces and to 'whip all of them out.'" .
1 At 8.37, there's an unidentified person who told Nazim Bushi to
2 form groups in order to move closer to the Macedonian security forces and
3 attack the place where they kept ammunition. This person suggested that
4 Bushi engage persons who know what to do, mentioning Xhavid Hasani.
5 Then at 8.46, "Nazim Bushi informed Commander Lisi from Ljuboten
6 that he had dispatched two units of which one was a special unit and they
7 would be placed under his command. Commander Lisi asked Bushi to
8 demonstrate seriousness."
9 Just stopping for a moment there, you would agree, sir, that these
10 two units which he is talking about would be Teli's unit and Arusha's unit
11 which were mentioned by other people and that I have read to you earlier.
12 Is that correct?
13 A. It is not correct.
14 Q. At 9.52 hours there's a record which says that "Nazim Bushi called
15 Commander Lisi in Ljuboten village, who informed him that was still in the
16 cellar. Bushi informed him that the two units were ready."
17 Then at 10.54 there's a record which says "Gezim Ostreni asked
18 Nazim Bushi about how the work was going. Bushi told him that he had
19 moved the units closer and that he was waiting for information in order to
20 make a decision. Gezim Ostreni told Nazim Bushi that he should have a
21 good decision for any situation and to kill the members of Macedonian
22 security forces if he could. Take the artillery, direct it on Skopje and
23 burn it down. Nazim Bushi told Ostreni that he was at position 120, near
24 Skopje, from which he could fire directly at the city and the refinery.
25 Then Gezim Ostreni suggested Nazim Bushi carry out a counterstrike against
1 Macedonian security forces, that is to respond with a battery against a
2 battery and inform him of that."
3 Mr. Bushi, do you agree that's exactly what did you on that day?
4 A. No, I don't. It is it not true that did I what you are putting to
6 Q. That's exactly what Mr. Suat Saliu and (redacted) have
7 said, isn't it?
8 A. They may say what they want.
9 Q. At 10.57 hours "Nazim Bushi called Talje [phoen] and asked him to
10 take an 82-millimetre mortar with shells and to wait for an order to
11 strike against the requested targets and then leave down the road where he
12 would be unnoticed."
13 1333 hours "An unidentified person informed Nazim Bushi that the
14 Macedonian security forces had entered Ljuboten. Nazim Bushi told him
15 that they were attacking Ljubanci in reply."
16 At 1347, "Hasan, a member of the staff of the 114th Brigade, asked
17 Nazim Bushi about the latest developments. Nazim Bushi told him that they
18 had started down there from the other side. Hasan replied that he heard
19 the same from Commander Sokoli and asked Nazim Bushi to issue an order to
20 activate fighters because the civilians were in poor state. Nazim Bushi
21 told him that they had started and that they were not going to stop."
22 Can you see that?
23 A. I can.
24 Q. And then there's a number of other markings. At 1348, there's
25 Nazim Bushi asked commander Dani from Suva Reka, Kosovo to hit there with
1 the 82 as hard as they could, to spare nothing. Commander Dani accepted
2 the request.
3 Do you know who Commander Dani is?
4 A. Ramadan Limaj.
5 Q. "Nazim Bushi asked Daut Haradinaj, Commander Mala and Sami
6 Ukshini, Commander Sokoli, to take more 82s up there. They replied that
7 they had done it and they should send somebody to get them. At 1353,
8 someone from Ljuboten called Nazim Bushi and informed him that the
9 Macedonian security forces had reached the mosque in Ljuboten. Nazim
10 Bushi replied that the forces were entering the villages but that they
11 should not let the Macedonian forces enter and should respond with
12 everything they had."
13 Can you see that?
14 A. I can.
15 Q. And then there's another record at 1833 and it closes with you
16 giving an order not to do anything, at 1833. Can you see that?
17 A. I can.
18 Q. And you know, you have indicated at that time that the Macedonian
19 authorities were listening to your conversations, didn't you?
20 A. I don't remember indicating that.
21 Q. Well, you indicated on at least two occasions that the reason for
22 using codes and code-names was to protect you from intercepts or
23 intercepted conversation by the authorities. Do you recall telling me
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. METTRAUX: Can the witness please be shown Exhibit 1D160,
3 Q. Sir, as you can see from the cover page of this document, this is,
4 again, information that comes from the UBK, the administration for
5 security and counter-intelligence of the Ministry of Interior, and the
6 document is dated the 14th of August of 2001 and concerns an assessment of
7 the high level of the violated security situation in Ljuboten village and
8 the surroundings.
9 Can you see that?
10 A. I can.
11 Q. And I would like to draw your attention to some of the information
12 which is contained in this document.
13 MR. METTRAUX: If the registry could please turn to page 3 of that
14 document in the English. And I believe that would be page 2 in the
16 Q. Can you find a paragraph which starts with the word: "In the time
17 before and during the conflicts."
18 Can you find that passage?
19 A. Is this the third paragraph?
20 Q. It should start with the words: "In the time before and during
21 the conflicts with the Macedonian forces in Ljuboten village."
22 Can you see that? This is the third paragraph in the English.
23 A. What about the Macedonian one? Is it also the third? Yes. I can
24 see it is the third in the English version, but can you show it to me in
25 the Macedonian version?
1 Q. It would at page 3, 1D00-5397. And this would be the third
2 paragraph on that page.
3 Can you see the sentence that I read to you?
4 A. Yes, now I can. It is in the third paragraph.
5 Q. I'll read it out for you Mr. Bushi. It says this: "In the time
6 before and during the conflicts with the Macedonian security forces in
7 Ljuboten village, Sali Mamer, member of the so-called NLA was present
8 there together with about 30 fighters of the so-called NLA."
9 Do you know Sali Mamer?
10 A. If I see him, I might, but I don't recall this name.
11 Q. The document goes on to say that: "On 12 August 2001 with regards
12 to the situation in Ljuboten village, Gezim Ostreni informed Fazli Veliu
13 that the villagers should stay in the basements and NLA members should go
14 out and respond to the Macedonian security forces."
15 And the next paragraph it says this: "Later on, a member of the
16 so-called NLA uttered interest on the ongoing situation. He addressed an
17 issue to Nazim Bushi, the commander Adashi, asking whether there are
18 conditions to act against the Macedonian security forces. Nazim Bushi
19 informed him that they can operate in villages Brodec, and Ljuboten and
20 that in order to start action, he can deploy troops of a special unit and
21 one more unit in only an hour and half. "At the same time," it goes on to
22 say, "Nazim Bushi gave instructions to a member of the so-called NLA that
23 groups should be formed and should move closer to the Macedonian security
24 forces and attack them at the place when the Macedonian forces take over
25 and ammunition. Also, Nazim Bushi passed information to the Commander
1 Lisi in Ljuboten village. In order to help him, he is sending a special
2 unit from Kumanovo, Lipkovo region and a unit of the Commander Teli. On
3 the other hand, Nazim Bushi got information from Gezim Ostreni to
4 undertake the counterattack against the Macedonian security forces
5 actually to respond with a battery to a battery and then, accordingly, to
6 provide accurate information back to Gezim Ostreni."
7 Do you agree, Mr. Bushi, that this information appears to be
8 identical to the information which was later published in an article which
9 I have read to you earlier?
10 A. There is a similarity.
11 Q. And that would suggest that the information went from the UBK to
12 the newspaper in question. Is that correct?
13 A. It could be. As I said earlier, all the documents dating back
14 from 14th February 2001 up to 26th of September, 2001 are not reliable
15 because the authorities could have written whatever they wanted on them.
16 Q. Well, let's look at the next paragraph. It says that "Zejadin
17 Tusi, Tusi informed Fazli Veliu that the soldiers of the so-called NLA are
18 present in Ljuboten village and are acting without any comment."
19 Can you see that?
20 A. I can.
21 Q. And do you know who Zejadin Tusi is?
22 A. If it is the Zejadin Tusi that I have on mind, he was the deputy
23 chief Chief of Staff --
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name of the
1 MR. METTRAUX:
2 Q. Mr. Bushi, a part of your answer has been left out of the
3 transcript. The interpreter could not hear the end. Could you repeat the
5 A. Zejadin Tusi, currently retired. He is a pensioner. But he used
6 to be the deputy general of the General Staff of the Macedonian army at
7 that time, and that's why it is not clear to me why he would inform
8 Fazliu. He was not an NLA general.
9 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Mr. Tusi in fact later became a
10 member of the NLA?
11 A. He would have never become an NLA soldier. Never.
12 Q. Are you aware of the fact, Mr. Bushi, that he was or wasn't, or
13 are you giving your opinion?
14 A. He wasn't a member of the NLA. This is what I'm saying.
15 Q. Well, let's turn to the next page of that document, the same
16 document you have in front of you.
17 MR. METTRAUX: This would be page 4 in the English. Thank you.
18 Q. I'll ask to you look at the next paragraph. It says: "In that
19 context Nazim Bushi asked of the commander Dani from Kosovo to attack
20 there in Ljuboten village with both units as much as they can and to
21 attack fiercely without exemption. Sometime later the Commander Dani
22 asked for Nazim Bushi to pull out the technique, quote unquote, ahead of
23 all because he has four wounded soldiers of Nazmi Sulejmani, the Commander
25 Do you agree, sir, first that this information in part is similar
1 to that which was published in the newspaper that I read out to you
3 A. Yes, it is similar.
4 Q. And you agree that consistent with the evidence of (redacted)
5 and Mr. Saliu again, it refers to a number of wounded soldiers of Nazmi
6 Sulejmani, Commander Arusha from your brigade. Do you agree that's what
7 it refers to?
8 A. These statements do corroborate but they are not true.
9 Q. Mr. Bushi, I'd like to turn to a different subject now. You've
10 been asked a number of questions by the Office of the Prosecutor, both at
11 the time of giving your statement, and yesterday in your
12 examination-in-chief about the goals and purposes of your organisation,
13 the NLA. Do you recall being asked those questions?
14 A. Yes, some of them.
15 Q. And you told this Chamber that the reason or the raison d'etre
16 behind your organisation was in fact to promote the human rights of the
17 Albanian minority in Macedonia who you say were discriminated in public
18 and official positions. Do you recall saying that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you also said yesterday and again in response to one of my
21 question today that you believed your group to have the support or morale
22 support, I think you said today of the Albanian minority in Macedonia
23 whose interests you claim to have been supported at the time. Do you
24 recall saying that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Well, what I'm putting to you, Mr. Bushi, is that in fact your
2 organisation had no or little support in the Albanian community and your
3 organisation was perceived by that community as a threat to their
4 interests and to inter-ethnic relations. Do you agree with that?
5 A. No, I don't.
6 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness please be shown Rule 65 ter
8 Q. Mr. Bushi, this is, again, a document which comes from the OSCE,
9 the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe, and there is no
10 available Macedonian or Albanian version. But I will read out the
11 relevant passages to you. This is a special report from the OSCE --
12 A. Sorry, if you could read more slowly, because there is no
13 Macedonian version, so I want to be clear on what you're reading.
14 Q. I will certainly read as slowly as I can, Mr. Bushi.
15 This is a special report dated --
16 A. Thank you.
17 Q. -- the 21st of March of 2001 and it comes from the Skopje office
18 of the OSCE. And this document refers in particular, Mr. Bushi, to a
19 visit by Javier Solanas who at the time was the, let's say foreign polici
20 supremo of the European Union, and I will read that to you a passage from
21 that document which summarize one particular aspect of this visit.
22 It says this: "A considerable achievement of Solanas's visit
23 considering the uncertainty of the Albanian political parties' positions
24 on the issue has been the formal signing by all the Albanian parties
25 represented in parliament of a strong declaration against the 'groups who
1 have taken up arms on the territory of our state' and in favour of more
2 intensive dialogue when 'calm' has been restored."
3 And then the document says that there is an attachment which is a
4 copy of the declaration in question from the Albanian parties --
5 A. Excuse me for a moment. If you could give me a blank paper, I
6 would like to make some notes.
7 MR. METTRAUX: Could Mr. Bushi be assisted.
8 THE WITNESS: Thank you. [Interpretation] You can proceed.
9 MR. METTRAUX:
10 Q. The document from the OSCE then attached the declaration in
11 question from all the Albanian political parties that were represented in
12 the parliament of the Republic of Macedonia.
13 MR. METTRAUX: And that would be on the second page of that
14 document, please.
15 Q. I will read it out to you slowly Mr. Bushi.
16 It says this: "We, the leaders of the Albanian political parties,
17 represented in the parliament of the Republic of Macedonia, stand united
18 for peace.
19 "We call on the groups which have taken up arms on the territory
20 of our state to lay down their arms and return to their homes peacefully.
21 We condemn the use of force in pursuit of political objectives. This can
22 have no place in a democratic state. It makes political dialogue
23 impossible. It blocks the road to Europe, which we, both as citizens of
24 the Republic of Macedonia and as Albanians, have chosen. It could lead to
25 tragedy for us as Macedonian citizens, and for the whole region.
1 "We believe that when calm has been restored it will be possible
2 to have a renewed and more productive dialogue between all political
3 factors in the Republic of Macedonia. We call on the government to speed
4 up those reforms affecting inter-ethnic relations on which it has already
5 decided, and we call on the European Union to help in their
7 "Important issues remain open. But we refuse to believe that we,
8 the citizens of this country, Macedonians and Albanians, are condemned to
9 choose between solutions which leave one group dissatisfied or another
10 group feeling threatened. If old ideas have not produced solutions which
11 are acceptable to all, then we must find new ones. But this cannot be
12 done until there is a relaxed atmosphere."
13 Did you know of that declaration, Mr. Bushi?
14 A. Some, from what I saw now. But I would like to give a lengthier
15 comment about this declaration, if you allow me so, Your Honour.
16 Q. Well, for the time being I will ask you this. Isn't that the
17 case, Mr. Bushi, that those Albanian political representatives who had
18 been elected by the Albanian community and/or by others opposed your
19 movement. Is that correct?
20 A. What is correct is only Memed Tachi and his personal statements
21 were against this, not all the Albanian nation. Only one or two members
22 of parliament were against.
23 Q. Well, isn't that the case, sir, that this was document was signed
24 as the OSCE made clear by all Albanian political parties represented in
25 the parliament of the Republic of Macedonia. Isn't that what it says?
1 A. Sir, there are two political parties, Albanian parties in
2 Macedonia that represent the Albanian nation. It is the party for
3 democratic prosperity and the democratic party of the Albanians. Until
4 then, there was the government coalition VRMO-DPMNE.
5 Q. We will come to the political situation in the country at that
6 time but would agree that --
7 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, Mr. Mettraux has read a very lengthy
8 document and I believe that the witness, he has a right to have the chance
9 to comment on these issues and he has been stopped several times already.
10 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I'm looking at the hour, Ms. Regue.
11 Mr. Mettraux, maybe this is something that we can take up --
12 MR. METTRAUX: I think I can finish the document, if Your Honour
13 allows me to go to 7.00, I think I can at least finish the document before
14 the end of the day, if that is acceptable to you.
15 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Okay. That is fine.
16 MR. METTRAUX:
17 Q. Mr. Bushi --
18 A. I apologise, Your Honour, really regarding what the counsel said,
19 there is a need for me to give you a lengthy comment. I want to convince
20 everybody here why the situation was like I described it earlier, why the
21 Albanians were discriminated. This cannot be summed up in one word. It
22 has to be summarized. Everything that brought up to 2001.
23 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: I understand that, Mr. Bushi, but will
24 you first answer the questions of counsel and then we may come back to
25 there at a later stage. But first answer the questions, please.
1 Thank you very much.
2 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Mr. Bushi, would you agree that the political parties which are
4 represented in parliament are those for which the people have voted, they
5 decided that this would be the political parties which best represent
6 their interests and they vote for that particular political outfit. Do
7 you agree that is how democracy works?
8 A. I can deny what you're saying, but listen for a moment. The
9 Albanian parties, they tried their best to articulate the demands of
10 Albanian nation but the Macedonian political class was the one that
11 imposed the 2001 war, because they turned down all the requests.
12 Q. Well, Mr. Bushi, we'll come to that, but could you please answer
13 my question. Do you agree that this is how democracy functions, there are
14 political parties which represent particular interests and people vote for
15 them, and if they get enough votes they make it to parliament. Do you
16 agree with that?
17 A. I agree this is how it should function, but the representation in
18 institutions is a different issue, sir. We're not talking about
19 representation in the assembly and parliament.
20 Q. Mr. Bushi, we will come to the representation in other places,
21 but let's stick with this issue in the particular moment. Do you agree
22 that in the Republic of Macedonia as in other democracies, there are
23 political parties for which people vote and if they get enough vote, they
24 get into parliament and in the case of the Republic of Macedonia there
25 were at least two Albanian political parties plus a number of independent
1 Albanian politicians that were elected to that parliament. Do you agree
2 with that?
3 A. I do.
4 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I will stick to the 7.00.
5 JUDGE VAN DEN WYNGAERT: Thank you, Mr. Mettraux.
6 I am afraid, sir, you will have to come back on Friday. We're not
7 sitting tomorrow, so the next hearing will be on Friday morning at 9.00 in
8 the morning.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Friday, the 28th day of
11 September, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.