Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10249

1 Monday, 3 March 2008

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon.

7 And good afternoon, sir. The affirmation you made at the

8 beginning of your evidence still applies.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Fine.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Now we commence with Ms. Valabhji.

13 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Cross-examination by Ms. Valabhji:

15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Popovski. My name is Nisha Valabhji. I am

16 counsel for the Prosecution and I will now ask you some questions about

17 your evidence.

18 Now, sir you are presently the assistant minister in the sector

19 for financial, material, technical and logistical matters within the

20 Ministry of Interior. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, this is correct.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the witness to speak

23 up.

24 A. Yes. The sector which I head is the sector for material,

25 technical, financial, and logistic matters as you mentioned. In this

Page 10250

1 sector, there is voluminous work. We prepare the salaries of the

2 employees at the MOI. We plan the budget of the Ministry of Interior.

3 The overall procurement for the MOI, equipment, including -- from the

4 smallest to the largest procurement issues are dealt with by our sector,

5 registering into accounting books, preparing account balances, also

6 securing nourishment for members of MOI when they are on the ground, also

7 the unit for construction and maintenance of facilities which are in

8 ownership of the MOI. We look after for the rest homes of the MOI. We

9 secure reserve parts for vehicles, materials for printing in the Ministry

10 of Interior warehouse facilities. This is our work. Perhaps I've omitted

11 something, but in general, this is what we do in our sector.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Popovski. And in fact, sir, you've been employed

13 in the Ministry of Interior since March the 15th, 2007. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that's when you joined the MOI as advisor in the property

16 section at the sector in which you are currently still employed. Correct?

17 A. Yes, this is correct.

18 Q. So, in sum, Mr. Popovski, you've been working in the Ministry of

19 Interior for close to one year. Is that right?

20 A. Yes, in two weeks it will be one year.

21 Q. All right. Now, sir, when were you informed by the Defence that

22 you would have to appear personally before the ICTY. Do you recall

23 roughly?

24 A. Not more than ten days prior to my coming here. Perhaps a week.

25 About ten days. In that period, I was away on business in Croatia, and

Page 10251

1 when I came back exactly about a week back, then it was definitely the

2 position that I will be coming here.

3 Q. All right.

4 MS. VALABHJI: At this stage, could the court binders please be

5 distributed?

6 Q. Now, Mr. Popovski, could you turn, please, to tab 1 of the binder.

7 I think you're already there. If you just flip that over, you'll see

8 something that may be familiar to you.

9 This is the statement which you provided to the Defence on the

10 28th of September, 2007. Is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And could you turn now, sir, to tab 2 of the binder. And please

13 have a look at the first couple of pages there, Mr. Popovski.

14 Now, there is your Rule 92 bis statement. Isn't that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. On January 22nd, 2008, you met with the registry officer and you

17 were given a further opportunity to review your statement.

18 A. Yes, this is correct.

19 Q. All right.

20 Could we have a look at paragraph 3 of your statement, sir. And

21 in paragraph 3, you say that from the Defence you were given a list of 40

22 persons.

23 Do you see that in paragraph 3?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And in paragraph 4, sir, of your statement, you say that you are

Page 10252

1 signing and submitting the list as appendix to this statement. Do you see

2 that, sir?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, sir, when you gave the attestation for your statement, that

5 is when you met with the registry court officer, at that time in January

6 of this year it was made clear to you, wasn't it, that your statement

7 would be given in evidence in these proceedings?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Could you look, then, at the page which bears the number on the

10 lower right-hand corner, 1D00-9992, and I believe it's the third page in

11 the pagination.

12 Are you there, sir, at 1D00-9992, we're still in tab 2 of the

13 binder. Okay.

14 Now, in the middle of the page there are the words: Additional

15 remarks. Do you see that, sir?

16 A. Yes, if this is what have you in mind, yes.

17 Q. All right. And it sets out what this package consists of. And

18 then it states: "The following document was before the witness at the

19 time of certification. A list of 40 names signed by the witness,

20 single-page document."

21 Do you see that, sir, on this page?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Sir, it's true, isn't it that at the time of this attestation

24 procedure you declined to include this 40-person list in this Rule 92 bis

25 package. Is that correct?

Page 10253

1 A. I do not understand your question.

2 Q. Sir, when you met with the registry court officer and you were

3 given a chance to go over your statement and to confirm it, you declined

4 to include, at that time, the list of 40 persons that's referred to in

5 paragraph 3 of your statement. Is that correct?

6 A. When I met with the representative from the Tribunal, I signed the

7 statement. This was the attestation of the statement which I had

8 previously signed and the list of 40 persons. Nothing more than that came

9 into question. I just signed or confirmed the previously given statement

10 with the list of 40 persons, where I mentioned that only eight of those

11 persons were engaged as part of the reserve forces.

12 Q. All right.

13 MS. VALABHJI: I see that my colleague is on her feet,

14 Your Honour.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

17 clarify, the witness responded to the question, but the suggestion of the

18 court officer was that he should not add the appendices to the statement,

19 because this was just a verification of the statement and this is in

20 accordance your position to the 92 bis rule, when it was necessary for

21 accepting the statement for the witness to be called. The witness already

22 mentioned he was only in effect verifying his statement.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

24 Please carry on.

25 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 10254

1 Q. Now, sir, in paragraph 5 of your Rule 92 bis statement, you say

2 that you made insight into the Ministry of Interior's archive and its

3 sector for finances. Now, this was the first review that you performed in

4 relation to these 40 persons. Is that correct?

5 A. Firstly - perhaps this is a game of words. Firstly, this was

6 given to the services from my sector to check with the services at SVR

7 Skopje. Once I was told when meeting with the representative of the

8 Tribunal there was no mention of whether I should be coming to The Hague

9 or not.

10 Q. Sir --

11 A. I was told --

12 Q. I have to interrupt you, I'm afraid, because I am not sure that

13 you understood the gist of my question. Perhaps I wasn't very clear.

14 In paragraph 5 of your statement, you refer to having made an

15 insight into the ministry's archive and in the sector for finances and you

16 speak of a check that was conducted. And I simply want to know, is that

17 the first round of checks that you carried out last year in 2007, July.

18 Is that right?

19 A. Yes, this is right. The sector of finance conducted a check and

20 since none of the listed persons is not on the payroll whereby the payroll

21 of all employees at the MOI is led by my sector, since none of these

22 persons were on the payroll, it means that none of them were employed at

23 the MOI, nor did they drew their salaries from there.

24 Q. Sir, you say that the sector of finance conducted a check. I'd

25 just like to inquire a little further from you, did you personally carry

Page 10255

1 out any checks during this first round, in 2007?

2 A. In my sector, yes.

3 Q. And what exactly did you do at that time?

4 A. Once the check was made in my sector, and once we concluded that

5 none of these persons is in regular employment at the MOI, this list, the

6 services from my sector were in contact with the sectors of SVR Skopje

7 which have the lists and the calculations for remuneration of the reserve

8 structures. Then these services checked which of these 40 persons were

9 engaged within the reserve structures.

10 Q. Okay. But I just want to be clear, sir. At that time, did you

11 yourself undertake any of these checking activities personally, or were

12 these officials in your sector in contact with the SVR Skopje?

13 A. As I said, in my sector I did this together with my services.

14 Later on, there was done at SVR Skopje and their relevant services. I

15 personally joined this at a somewhat later date.

16 Q. All right. Well, with regard to the checks that were done in

17 2007, how are the records kept, sir?

18 A. Records are kept by SVR Skopje. Each of the documents which I

19 checked for the persons regardless of the time-period when they may be

20 engaged even if for one day, such person must be remunerated. There are

21 such lists for remuneration kept by SVR Skopje. At that period of time,

22 these lists were kept by SVR Skopje, and then our sector is informed to

23 transfer a certain amount at a given and designated bank.

24 Q. Now, with regard to the persons from your sector that carried out

25 this check, did you supervise their work in any way?

Page 10256

1 A. You mean in our cooperation with the services from SVR Skopje?

2 Q. That's right. When persons from your sector were undertaking

3 these checks, did they call you with queries, did you have the occasion to

4 supervise them in what they were doing?

5 A. It is impossible always to do this. I mentioned previously all of

6 the obligations we are charged with. Therefore, we cannot always fully

7 focus on one issue. I have trust in my services. I cannot exactly say

8 how long it took them to check what they were supposed to do, but

9 ultimately I received information from them that these eight persons were

10 engaged from the 1st of August to the 30th of September.

11 Q. Right. And this was the information which, in fact, you then

12 adopted in your statement. Correct?

13 A. Yes, this is correct.

14 Q. And just to summarize briefly, sir, in paragraph 6 of your

15 statement, this information states that: "Eight persons were engaged in

16 the Ministry of Interior as police reservists and received salaries for

17 the period 1st of August, 2001, to 20th September, 2001," is that correct,

18 as it says in paragraph 6.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, sir, just prior to coming here to give your testimony, you

21 decided to check personally certain lists kept in the SVR Skopje. Is that

22 right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And just to be really clear on this, you checked the lists

25 pertaining to salaries received. Is that right?

Page 10257

1 A. I've said salary is one thing, remuneration another. The check of

2 the salaries is done in our sector, because we prepare the payroll. In

3 the second case, this is not a salary, rather, remuneration for persons

4 engaged in the reserve forces which are kept in this case by SVR Skopje;

5 and because I was told that I was due to come here, I wanted, once again,

6 personally, with the services, to check the truthfulness and one mistake

7 was noted of which I made mention during my previous statements.

8 Sometimes it is a matter of omission, and in other cases this was a matter

9 of misspelling, typing errors, change of name, Boris, Boris or Boro,

10 whether the last naming ended in -ov or -ovski and mistakes of this kind.

11 Again, this was the last week prior to my arrival here. If you allow

12 me --

13 Q. All right. Well, sir, as a matter of fact, you found a number of

14 mistakes in the original findings. Isn't that right?

15 A. Yes. I said this, that six additional people were found.

16 Q. So, as a result, instead of eight persons having been found to

17 have received compensations, salaries, however one wants to word it, for

18 their engagement in the Ministry of Interior reserve police, 14 persons

19 were found to have received salaries in total. Is that correct?

20 A. This is correct.

21 Q. And 14 persons, that's more than a third of the list of the 40

22 persons that you were asked to check. Isn't that right?

23 A. It is possible. I did not calculate the percentages.

24 Q. Now, in relation to these six additional persons whom you found to

25 have received salaries, compensation, you testified last week that as to

Page 10258

1 two persons Sladimovski Zoran and Cankulovski Borce, that this represented

2 a classic omission. Do you remember that testimony?

3 A. I said last week, in giving my testimony, that there were 14 names

4 in question; I don't know them and I could not know them all by heart. I

5 mentioned these two as persons where omissions have been made. I did not

6 say that this was the definitive number. I mentioned them as persons

7 where such omissions were made. And I also said that they're other

8 omissions, again not to repeat myself again, mistakes in typing, mistakes

9 in spelling, a letter or two in one's name.

10 Q. Now, sir, you made this most recent check because you were

11 concerned about the accuracy of the prior review. Is that right?

12 A. Perhaps one could not say this, that I was concerned. I told you

13 previously, I have full trust in the work by my services. But I wanted to

14 again look and go through these lists personally and to make sure that

15 everything was all right. Because it is -- it is not always possible to

16 do this for myself, to become personally engaged there matters. If this

17 were so, 24 hours would not be sufficient for a supervisor to do this.

18 This is why work is given to the services and this is why I say I have

19 full trust in the work they do. We have full cooperation between us.

20 Q. But as a matter of fact, you did decide to become quite personally

21 engaged this time around, isn't it, sir?

22 A. I said so. I did want to check this personally and to make sure

23 it was all right. There's an old proverb that says more eyes see better

24 than one.

25 Q. Now, sir, you mentioned that you can't recall all the names that

Page 10259

1 have now been added to the list of persons that you found to receive

2 salaries. Now, in the proofing note which we were provided by my

3 colleagues across the way, following their meeting with you last week, we

4 were provided with a list of six persons, of six additional persons, and

5 one of them is Zoran Sladimovski, and the other one is an

6 Ilija Sekerovski.

7 A. Yes, I remember these two names.

8 Q. And in fact, if you look at the list of 40 persons, which is at

9 tab 1 of the binder, you see these two people on the list, don't you, sir?

10 A. Yes. Number 9 is Sladimovski Zoran; and 18 Sekerovski Ilija.

11 Q. All right. So, sir, you would agree with me, wouldn't you, that

12 these two persons were not found in the original review that was done in

13 July 2007 of the register of reservists in the SVR Skopje. Isn't that

14 correct?

15 A. Since they are not written among these eight, then it means that

16 they were not seen.

17 Q. What this means, sir, isn't it that the list of reservists in the

18 SVR Skopje doesn't fully represent all persons who were reservists at the

19 time?

20 A. Look, you are now asking me about something which you said

21 yourself I have been in the Ministry of Interior affairs for a year. I

22 never worked in the MOI before. So now you are asking me about something

23 that would require for me to speculate. I think I told you very well;

24 sometimes it is just a mistake.

25 Q. I have to interrupt you. You haven't answered my question. So I

Page 10260

1 will repeat it.

2 And the question was: These two names were not found in the

3 original review that was done in July 2007 and that means, doesn't it,

4 sir, that the list of reservists in the SVR Skopje doesn't fully reflect

5 all the persons who were reservists at that time, isn't it?

6 A. I don't understand why you don't want to understand me. Our

7 sector and me in the capacity of the head of the sector have no contact

8 points with the reserve police. The most meritable lists are those where

9 you can see that the person should be compensated for their work which

10 means that this person has been engaged. I reiterate this is obviously a

11 flaw. I don't know whether to say there are more than one list. I don't

12 know why you don't understand me. Those lists are kept in the SVR Skopje

13 and my sector does not have any connection with SVR Skopje.

14 Q. That's not what asked you. And again, I don't think you have

15 answered my question.

16 Now, you have said that the most meritable lists are those

17 regarding compensation. And in fact in your testimony last week, you

18 said: "Lists with compensation I checked in SVR Skopje because persons

19 from the list are on the SVR Skopje lists. They have a list of

20 reservists, however, the list which is reliable is that for the

21 compensation."

22 Do you recall this testimony, sir?

23 A. That's correct. But that list as well is found in the SVR Skopje.

24 So the remuneration list is in the SVR Skopje, while our sector receives

25 an information from SVR Skopje how much money should be transferred in a

Page 10261

1 designated bank.

2 Q. By implication, sir, what you're really saying that the list

3 pertaining to compensations is more reliable than a list that purports to

4 be a list of reservists. Isn't that right, sir?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, sir, in the proofing note which we were provided last week,

7 there were four other names that were given to us regarding persons who

8 received compensation. And these persons were written as

9 Borce Cankulovski, Dragi Mackimov, Zoran Kostencovski, and

10 Ljubomir Milosevski.

11 Could you look again at the list of persons in tab 1, please.

12 A. Yes, if you --

13 Q. And you see there --

14 A. -- think of that list --

15 Q. You see that there item number 10, person number 10, rather, is

16 Cankulovski Bojko Borce and this corresponds to Borce Cankulovski. Is

17 that correct?

18 A. Cankulovski.

19 Q. Cankulovski. Thank you for correcting me. And person number 30

20 is a Mackinovski Dime Dragi. Do you see that, sir?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And that is the person referred to, isn't it, as Dragi Mackimov in

23 the proofing note. Is that correct?

24 A. I think it's Mackinov. I wouldn't be 100 per cent sure. I think

25 it's a mistake. It should be Mackinov.

Page 10262

1 Q. What should be Mackinov? In this list of 40 persons.

2 A. I said so these additional six persons where a mistake was

3 noticed, typing errors mainly. Here it is Mackinovski and that is why I'm

4 saying I'm not 100 per cent sure whether this person was Mackinov without

5 -ski or Mackinovski, something like that. Whether the mistake is in the

6 third letter, whether it should be Ch instead of C or the -ski should be

7 omitted, I'm not sure. I really cannot say.

8 Q. So in short you're not entirely sure about all of the information

9 that you were asked to check. Isn't that correct?

10 A. I cannot say with certainty now whether this person is with ski or

11 his last name should contain the letter Ch, I really couldn't say.

12 Q. Person at number 32 of this list is Kostencovski Bozin, Zoran and

13 that's the person referred to as Zoran Kostencovski in the proofing note.

14 Isn't that right, sir?

15 A. I think it is Kostensov Zoran.

16 Q. Now the fourth person mentioned in the proofing note is

17 Ljubomir Milosevski. Could you look again at this list of 40 persons,

18 sir, there is no Ljubomir Milosevski in the list, is there, sir?

19 A. There is Milosevski Sande, Ljuboten, here. There is a mistake in

20 his name, as far as I can see here.

21 Q. And indeed it should say Sande instead of Sandre. Isn't that

22 correct?

23 A. That's the father's name. It is possible that it is Aleksander or

24 Sande Milosevski, Sande Ljubomir. I think it's Sande. I think it's

25 Sande.

Page 10263

1 Q. All right. Sir, could you turn now to tab 21 of the binder?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Now, last week you provided some documents to the Defence when you

4 came to The Hague. Isn't that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And in fact, this is part of the set of documents that you brought

7 with you to The Hague. Isn't that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And this set of documents sets out lists of police reservists at

10 PS Cair in the period between the 16th and 31st of August, 2001, who

11 received salaries or remuneration. Isn't that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And could you turn, then, to the page N006-9742.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And about halfway down the page, next to the number 16019, do you

16 see the name Sande Milosevski, sir? That's what that says, doesn't it.

17 Just yes or no, sir, would do.

18 A. I apologise, you said N006-9742.

19 Q. That's right.

20 A. I see the person Milosevski Ljubomir..

21 Q. Sir, if you look at the middle --

22 A. 16, you said?

23 Q. 16019 in the middle of the page. It's quite squarely in the

24 middle of the page.

25 A. Yes, yes, it's all right now.

Page 10264

1 Q. So you would agree that name says Sande Milosevski. Correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And if you could turn to the page N006-9753. Close to the bottom

4 of the page, sir, in handwriting text, do you see, again the name

5 Sande Milosevski. That's what that says, sir, isn't it?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. VALABHJI: Your Honours, could this document please be

8 admitted into evidence.

9 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it will become Exhibit P586.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Just for the transcript, line 15,

13 the colleague said this was lists from PS Cair and this is from the

14 PS Kuceviste. Since now they have been accepted as exhibits, this should

15 be correct what we are actually accepting. These are lists from

16 PS Kuceviste. Of course they are within Cair, but it is a completely

17 separate police station.

18 MS. VALABHJI: I would only note, Your Honours, that on the first

19 page, at N006-9739 the document refers to PS Cair, just for the record.

20 JUDGE PARKER: The reference to OVR Cair, you're referring to?

21 MS. VALABHJI: Actually, there are two references, one is the

22 upper left-hand side and that is OVR Cair, RPS Kuceviste. But in the text

23 of the communication it refers to PS Cair.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Well, I don't know if anything is going

25 to turn on this, but we are, unless counsel are agreed, in a position only

Page 10265

1 to rely on what is actually given in evidence. So if there is any issue

2 that you think is important, Ms. Residovic, you may have to try and deal

3 with it in re-examination.


5 Q. Sir, could you now turn to tab 20 of the binder.

6 Have you found it, sir?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Okay. And please look at the page N006-9757. This is a similar

9 list, isn't it, sir, for the period the 1st of September, 2001, until the

10 30th of September, 2001. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And, again, this is part of the documentation which you provided

13 to the Defence last week upon coming to The Hague. Correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And if you turn to page -- actually, if you turn the page, to

16 N006-9758.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. That's the name Sande Milosevski again, the fourth name from the

19 bottom of the page. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. If you turn to the page N006-9762, sir.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In the middle of the page there's the name again,

24 Sande Milosevski. Isn't that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10266

1 MS. VALABHJI: Could this be admitted into evidence, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P587, Your Honours.

4 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you.

5 Q. Now, Mr. Popovski, you were asked very recently to review a list

6 of eight names previously given to Mr. Spase Filipov to review. Isn't

7 that right?

8 A. [No interpretation]

9 Q. And you were not asked at any prior time to review this additional

10 list of names. Isn't that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And if you could turn to tab 9 of the binder. This is the list of

13 names, sir, isn't it, that Mr. Filipov was originally asked to review?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you reviewed this list and determined that nobody from this

16 list received any remuneration. Isn't that right?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And two of the persons on this list are a Blagoja Mladenovski and

19 Mile Milevski. Do you see that, sir?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could we turn now to tab 18 of the binder.

22 And, again --

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. -- this is part of the documents which you brought with you last

25 week. Isn't that right, sir?

Page 10267

1 A. I apologise, if you allow me a second or two.

2 For OVR Cair, yes, I think those are the documents that I brought.

3 Q. Indeed. And it sets out police reservists at PS Cair who received

4 salaries in the period between the 1st of August, 2001, and the 30th of --

5 or, rather, the 31st of August, 2001. Is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could we then turn to page N006-9774 in this document.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And about a third of the way down the page, sir, that's the name

10 Blagojce Mladenovski. Isn't that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And Blagojce is a nickname for Blagoje, isn't it, sir?

13 A. I couldn't confirm that. Blagojce exists as a name just like

14 Blagoje. In the Republic of Macedonia there is a name Blagojce and there

15 is also a name Blagoje. I couldn't confirm whether this is a nickname for

16 Blagoje.

17 Q. Isn't it possible, sir, that Blagojce is indeed a nickname for

18 Blagoje, isn't it possible?

19 A. I really couldn't say. I couldn't confirm, really.

20 MS. VALABHJI: Your Honour, could this be admitted into evidence,

21 please.

22 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P588, Your Honours.

24 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you.

25 Q. And could we turn, sir, to tab 19 of the binder. Again, sir,

Page 10268

1 you're familiar with this question, of course. This is part of the

2 documents that you brought with you last week, and they show reservists at

3 PS Cair who received salaries in September 2001. Isn't that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And could you turn to page N006-9722.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the penultimate name at the bottom of the page, sir, that's

8 Mile Milevski, isn't it? That's what that says, isn't it?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. VALABHJI: Your Honour, could this document please be admitted

11 into evidence.

12 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as you can see, for

14 the request for the data under item 8, the Defence requested data for

15 Milevski Dejan. And I don't know, as we can see from our request under

16 item 8, we requested data for Milevski Dejan, and I don't see the

17 relevance of the document that my learned colleague is proposing, because

18 this document does not refer to Milevski Dejan.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Valabhji.

20 MS. VALABHJI: Well, Your Honour, the document, as the witness has

21 pointed out, refers to a Mile Milevski and the request in question, which

22 is now Exhibit 1D263 that Mr. Filipov was supposed to work on, refers to a

23 Mile Dejan Milevski. That is item 8 of 1D263.

24 And may I add, Your Honour, that I do not see an issue at this

25 stage of admissibility of the documents.

Page 10269

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, maybe it would be

4 correct if the witness sees this document and if he could explain what the

5 middle name means, and that might give the Chamber a better view what

6 Defence actually wanted.

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask that the microphones

8 that are not in use be switched off. Thank you.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE PARKER: The exhibit will be received, Ms. Residovic. If

11 you want to re-examine on the matter, you may do so, or else it may be a

12 matter of contentious fact that has to be the subject of submission and

13 decision.

14 THE REGISTRAR: This will become the Exhibit P589, Your Honours.

15 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Popovski, you weren't working in the Ministry of Interior

17 in 2001, were you?

18 A. No, I wasn't.

19 Q. So in 2001, therefore, you were not able to observe how records

20 were made and kept in the Ministry of Interior. Isn't that right?

21 A. That's logical. If I wasn't working in 2001, then I couldn't have

22 insight in many issues.

23 Q. Very well. And because you couldn't have insight in many issues,

24 in fact, you have no direct knowledge concerning the creation and

25 maintenance of these lists which you brought with you to The Hague last

Page 10270

1 week. Isn't that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And as a matter of fact, sir, you can't yourself be entirely sure

4 that these additional lists are also complete. Isn't that right?

5 A. I didn't see any other lists except this one.

6 Q. But that wasn't the question, sir, that I asked you. My question

7 was: You can't be entirely sure because you were not involved with the

8 creation and maintenance of these lists generated in 2001, that these are

9 complete lists. Isn't that right, sir?

10 A. Correct. Since I was not employed then, that means that I was not

11 involved with this issue of the lists. But I say once again, I did not

12 see any other lists.

13 Q. Now, sir, it's true, isn't it, that 2001 was a very difficult

14 year, a difficult period of time in Macedonia. Isn't that right?

15 A. I don't understand the context of the question. In 2001, I was

16 employed elsewhere.

17 Q. Sir, I --

18 A. And I was a citizen of the Republic of Macedonia. Therefore, I do

19 not understand the question -- the context in which you asked this

20 question.

21 Q. Fair enough. Well, I'll explain to you the context. We've heard

22 evidence in this case, sir, that the security situation in Macedonia in

23 2001 was very complex and that the Ministry of Interior was extremely

24 pressed with work at this point in time. We've also heard evidence from a

25 Defence witness to the effect that in such a situation as the one the

Page 10271

1 prevailed in 2001, things had to be done, perhaps, more quickly and

2 flexibly. And with that, sir, I would ask you when persons are working in

3 conditions of stress, you'd agree that they might carry out their duties

4 in a way that would differ from how they would carry them out in

5 peacetime. Would you agree with that?

6 A. You've listed a number of thesis from my colleagues who were here

7 who were employed at that time. If they say that this is so, then this is

8 so. Now you're asking me to say something which could be but speculation

9 on my part. We don't know. Some persons do better under conditions of

10 deadlines, or, as you say, under conditions of stress. We could not say

11 this. And I also wouldn't be able to tell you this, how people react or

12 act under a given situation. Each people reacts -- all people react

13 different --

14 Q. All right. But you would agree, sir, wouldn't you, that it's

15 possible that in such times record keeping may not have been as

16 meticulously done as would be the case in peacetime. Would you agree that

17 that is a possibility?

18 A. Unfortunately, I have to say yet once again. I cannot speculate

19 about things which happened almost six years prior to my employment at the

20 MOI. I really am not able to speculate on this.

21 Q. Very well.

22 MS. VALABHJI: Your Honour, could we have a private session,

23 please.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Private.

25 [Private session]

Page 10272











11 Pages 10272-10275 redacted. Private session.















Page 10276

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.


19 Q. Now, Mr. Popovski, looking again at your statement in tab 2,

20 paragraph 6 of your statement you set out the names of eight individuals

21 whom -- who were found to be members of the reserve police and received

22 salaries at that point in time. Do you see that?

23 A. Yes, they received remuneration.

24 Q. And three of the persons whom you have listed in paragraph 6 are

25 Tome Sarkoski, Stojan Kostencovski and Ljupco Stojanovski. Is that right?

Page 10277

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Could you now turn to the document at tab 5 of your binder. This

3 is N000-5187.

4 A. Very well.

5 Q. Now, this document is dated the 13th of November, 2003. It's from

6 the section for Defence preparations of the Ministry of Interior, and it's

7 to the SVR Skopje. And its subject is review of the records concerning

8 persons from OVR Cair engaged as volunteers in the reserve composition of

9 the police.

10 Do you see that, in the subject header?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. And further down it says: "In connection to the list

13 of persons from OVR Cair, who were voluntarily engaged in OVR Cair," and

14 there's a serial number and a date. "Prepared by OOP," and that, I

15 believe, refers to the sector for Defence preparation, "with SVR Skopje

16 and the actual request to make a list of persons who have received

17 uniforms and weapons although they had already been tried for different

18 criminal acts and after the review of the records, we inform you of the

19 following" and then there appears a list of names.

20 Are you with me so far, sir?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, we see a list of names, and the first name is

23 Ljupco Stojanovski. Do you see that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And it says that in 1996 he was sentenced to three months

Page 10278

1 imprisonment but the sentence was suspended for a year. Do you see that?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And, for the record, I refer to P00081, which sets out Article 155

4 of the Macedonian Criminal Code in 1996.

5 Well, sir, isn't this the same name that appears in paragraph 6 of

6 your statement that we just looked at in the list of persons whom we found

7 received compensation?

8 A. Just a moment, please.

9 Yes.

10 Q. And if we look at the second page of this document in tab 5, and

11 that is N000-5187, now the third name listed on the Macedonian version of

12 this page is Tome Sarkoski. Do you see that?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And it says that in 1998, he was given a fine for committing a

15 crime under Article 44 of the KZM. Do you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, going back to the list of eight persons in your statement,

18 sir, that's one of the persons that you found to be a reserve police

19 officer within the ministry. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And could we turn briefly to tab 13 of the binder.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And here we see the cover page of a publication and it is entitled

24 criminal law of the socialist Republic of Macedonia, third amended

25 publication, 1998. Do you see that sir? It's a little hard to read

Page 10279

1 perhaps.

2 A. Yes, yes, it's fine.

3 Q. And if you turn the page, sir, you see that Article 44 refers to

4 light bodily injury. Do you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could we turn to the document under tab 5, once again.

7 And if you look, sir, further down on page N000-5188.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You see the name Kostencovski Stojan. Do you see that name, sir?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And next to the name it says that in 1963, he was sentenced to two

12 months of imprisonment suspended for a year for committing a crime under

13 Article 259 of the Criminal Code of Yugoslavia. And in 1968, he was

14 sentenced to a year and six months of strict imprisonment for committing a

15 crime under Article 141 of the KZJ. Do you see that, sir?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, that is another individual whom you found to be a police

18 reservist in August/September 2001, and who was mentioned in your

19 statement at paragraph 6. Isn't that right?

20 A. Yes, Kostencovski Stojan.

21 Q. All right. Could we turn briefly then to tab 14 of the binder,

22 sir.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And do you see there the cover page of a publication. And it is

25 from 1968, and the cover page says that it's the Criminal Code of the

Page 10280

1 SFRY, copyright 1968, Belgrade. Do you see that, sir?

2 A. Yes, yes.

3 Q. And if you turn, sir, to Article 141, paragraph 1.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And it says there: "The one who will cause serious bodily injury

6 to another person or will cause serious disturbance to another's health

7 will be penalised by imprisonment of at least six months or severe

8 imprisonment of up to a five-year period."

9 Do you see that, sir?

10 A. Yes.

11 MS. VALABHJI: Your Honour, before I forget, could this please be

12 admitted into evidence.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE PARKER: You mean tab 5?

15 MS. VALABHJI: I mean at present tab 14 and tab 13.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE PARKER: Well, tab 14 will be received.

18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P590, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Tab 13 will be received.

20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P591, Your Honours.

21 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Now, sir, Mr. Popovski, in addition to the eight persons listed in

23 your statement as having received salaries, you've just told us that your

24 more recent check revealed that Ilija Sekerovski also received

25 remuneration. That's right, isn't it?

Page 10281

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And there we must go back to tab 5. Looking at page N000-5187.

3 Pardon me, 5188 at the top of the page in Macedonian. Do you see there

4 the name Ilija Sekerovski, sir?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And do you see written next to that name it says in 1974, he was

7 given a fine of 1000 dinars for crime against public security of the KZM

8 and other crimes. In 1994, he was sentenced to one year of imprisonment,

9 suspended to three years under Article 178. In 1985, he was sentenced to

10 six months of imprisonment under Article 239 and 243 of the KZM. Do you

11 see that, sir?

12 A. Yes.

13 MS. VALABHJI: Your Honour, could this document please be admitted

14 into evidence.

15 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P592, Your Honours.


18 Q. Now, sir, if you could turn to tab 17 of the binder.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And do you see there the criminal law of the Socialist Republic of

21 Macedonia and it says on the first page at the bottom that this law is

22 amended with the law of amendment of the criminal law of the Socialist

23 Republic of Macedonia, Official Gazette of SRM number 23/84. Do you see

24 that, sir?

25 A. [No interpretation]

Page 10282

1 Q. And if you could turn the page to Article 239 of this code. Do

2 you see that it refers to jeopardising safety and traffic. Do you see

3 that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And if you turn to page 272 of this criminal law and Article 243

6 which appears on the left-hand side of the Macedonian version. Do you see

7 that Article 243 refers to severe acts against the safety of the persons

8 and property in traffic. Do you see that?

9 A. Yes.

10 MS. VALABHJI: Your Honour, could this be -- please be admitted

11 into evidence.

12 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE PARKER: It's suggested this may already be Exhibit P81.

15 MS. VALABHJI: I don't believe this to be the case, Your Honour.

16 I believe that P81 refers to the Criminal Code enacted in July of 1996,

17 whereas these particular provisions that we have just looked at are from a

18 different publication.

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE PARKER: Do you have a 65 ter number then?

21 MS. VALABHJI: The 65 ter number is 1224.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24 JUDGE PARKER: I see the time. It occurs to me that if we had a

25 break now, our normal first break, that you might discuss with the

Page 10283

1 registry officer and resolve which document is which, and we can deal with

2 that when we resume after the break.

3 MS. VALABHJI: We shall certainly do that, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

5 We will adjourn now and resume at 20 past 4.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 4.25 p.m.

8 JUDGE PARKER: I'm sorry for the delay. We hope that the

9 technical issues are now overcome.

10 Please carry on.

11 MS. VALABHJI: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Just before the break, Your Honour, I had sought to tender a 65

13 ter 1224 and having conferred with the registry officer during the break,

14 we have established that P00081 is indeed a distinct exhibit.

15 JUDGE PARKER: You now tender and it will be received.

16 MS. VALABHJI: Could 65 ter 1224 please be admitted into evidence.

17 THE REGISTRAR: It will become Exhibit P592, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE PARKER: And that is the document, for our purposes, at

19 tab --

20 MS. VALABHJI: It's at tab 17, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE PARKER: 17. Thank you.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me. Correction, Your Honours, this will

23 become Exhibit P593.

24 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


Page 10284

1 Q. Now, Mr. Popovski, if you could turn to tab 6 of the binder.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Are you familiar, sir, with the special police unit the Lions?

4 A. I said that I had been in the Ministry of Interior Affairs for

5 just 11 months. So I don't know what your question refers to.

6 Q. I merely wanted to ascertain, sir, whether you had some

7 familiarity with this police unit. But we can move on --

8 A. Absolutely not.

9 Q. This unit operated sometime in 2001 and if we look at this

10 document at N006 --

11 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Residovic.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I know that

13 cross-examination does not have to stick to the statement of the witness,

14 but I cannot see the relevance of it because there is nothing about Lions

15 in the statement, and the witness said that he didn't know anything about

16 that because he had sent only 10 months in the ministry. So I would like

17 to know why these questions are being asked.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Well, hopefully it will become clear in a moment

19 whether it is something that the witness can deal with or not.


21 Q. Now, sir, if you could turn to page N006-7243, you're probably

22 there already I see. This is Article dated the 9th of November, 2002, and

23 it's entitled the MVR spent one-fifth of next year's budget and the

24 article contains remarks made by Minister Hari Kostov at a press

25 conference. Do you see that, sir?

Page 10285

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And if you look at the last few paragraphs and this is on page 2

3 of the English version, it states: "Lions will be transformed, confirmed

4 the new minister but did he not say explicitly when and how it will

5 happen. He reiterated that more than a thousand members of the Lions did

6 not possess decisions on employment and all of them who are found to be

7 professionals, competent and without a criminal record will be appointed

8 to appropriate structures in the Ministry of Interior."

9 Sir, you would agree with me that according to what this article

10 states, over a thousand Lions members did not have decisions on

11 employment. Would you agree with that?

12 A. I cannot speculate about something that happened on the -- in 2002

13 and it was said by Mr. Hari Kostov. So you are asking me to say something

14 or to comment on something that was said five years ago by another person,

15 whether this was a comment or an attitude or a stance I really don't know

16 whether I should agree or disagree with it.

17 Q. But you would agree, sir, that according to the text that I've

18 just read out that is what it says there. Isn't it, sir?

19 A. It is correct, since it is written, but whether the written is

20 true and what Mr. Hari Kostov meant by it, I really cannot say. But

21 undoubtedly I can read just as you and it is obvious that Mr. Kostov has

22 said that.

23 Q. And in the next paragraph we see that it says: "Kostov, however,

24 did not say how many of the Lions have criminal records, but he emphasised

25 that those who had would not be engaged any further."

Page 10286

1 Do you see that, sir?

2 A. Yes.

3 MS. VALABHJI: Your Honour I would seek to tender this into

4 evidence.

5 JUDGE PARKER: On what basis is it shown to be admissible?

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

7 MS. VALABHJI: It is the -- it would simply be, Your Honour, that

8 the witness has gone through these paragraphs and is able to say that this

9 is what he saw in the article presented to him. That is the basis,

10 Your Honour.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE PARKER: It will not be received.


14 Q. I put it to you, sir, that there were many mistakes in the check

15 of Ministry of Interior records which you and others on your behalf

16 conducted in July 2007. Isn't that right?

17 A. Yes, it is true. Several mistakes had happened, but it is a

18 relative thing whether you consider them too many or too few.

19 Q. And I further put it to you that the register of reservists in the

20 SVR Skopje is not reliable and is incomplete. Isn't that correct?

21 A. At the very beginning I said that my field of work and the field

22 of work of my sector does not include this list, and I really wouldn't

23 like to speculate or to expose certain stances of mine, not knowing

24 whether this is true or not.

25 Q. I put it to you that several of the individuals whom you

Page 10287

1 ultimately found to have received salaries or compensation in August and

2 September 2001 had criminal records.

3 A. Yes, you did that.

4 Q. And, finally, sir --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note, could all the microphones

6 that are not in use please be switched off.


8 Q. Finally, sir, I put it to you that the lists which you provided to

9 the Defence last week may not fully contain all compensated police

10 reservists in August and September 2001. Isn't that right?

11 A. The original list was amended with additional six names.

12 Q. You may have misunderstood my last question, sir. I was referring

13 to the documents which you brought with you last week to The Hague upon

14 arriving in The Hague. And it is these documents that I am now asking you

15 about and I put it to you that these lists may not fully contain all

16 compensated police reservists in the period August and September 2001.

17 Can you agree with that?

18 A. Again, you are putting me to say the same answer. That is not

19 within my field of work or the sector's field of work. So I wouldn't like

20 to speculate on it.

21 MS. VALABHJI: I have nothing further, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

23 Is there any re-examination, Ms. Residovic?

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, I do have a

25 couple of questions for this witness.

Page 10288

1 Re-examination by Ms. Residovic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Popovski, you remember that my learned

3 colleague showed you your statement, the statement that was certified by

4 an official of this Tribunal, in particular paragraph 5, and I would like

5 to you look at this document after paragraph 2. That's 1D326.

6 A. Tab 3?

7 Q. After tab 2. No, no, I do apologise. Paragraph 3.

8 So could you please look at the document after tab 2. Yes, I

9 misspoke. So this is your statement. Paragraph 5 in your statement.

10 That's Exhibit 1D326. You remember that my learned colleague showed you

11 this document?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And regarding paragraph 5 you said that you had personally checked

14 all the lists, the salary lists kept in your sector. Is that what you

15 said?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Were you able to ascertain whether any persons out of the 40

18 persons that you checked had in fact received salaries in the Ministry of

19 the Interior?

20 A. Salaries, no.

21 Q. Did any of the 40 persons, were they actually employed by the

22 Ministry of the Interior?

23 A. No, not a single one.

24 Q. You went through paragraph 6 with my learned colleague, the checks

25 for the compensations for the reservists that were kept and are kept today

Page 10289

1 in the sector in Skopje. Do you recall having discussed that?

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could we ask the witness to wait until the

3 question of Ms. Residovic is translated before he replies. Thank you very

4 much.

5 Could the witness now repeat his answer, please.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Could you please answer my question now. Do you recall that you

8 discussed with my learned colleague the paragraph 6 in your statement

9 about the checks that were done on the reservists that were engaged in the

10 sector of the interior in Skopje?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you please tell me where are the lists of all the reservists

13 that are engaged kept, the lists of their engagement and the -- any

14 payments of any remunerations?

15 A. In this particular case, in SVR Skopje.

16 Q. When you decided to go through those lists together with the

17 services, were you able to check all the lists for all the persons that

18 had received compensation in that period of time?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you make copies of all those lists and did you hand them to

21 the Defence?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, I would like you to look at the document at tab

24 21. That's P586.

25 Do you remember discussing this with my learned colleague?

Page 10290

1 Actually, you talked about some persons that had received some form of

2 compensation in August 2001.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, please go to tab 21, to page N006-9739, that's the Macedonian

5 version. The English version would be N006-9739.

6 Do you have this document in front of you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who submitted this document?

9 A. It is said here the Ministry of Interior Affairs of Macedonia,

10 sector of interior affairs Skopje, OVR Cair, subject completed review,

11 submits. So it means that it was submitted to the SVR Skopje.

12 Q. Is RPS Kuceviste among the addressees -- or, rather, the party

13 that sent the document?

14 A. Yes, RPS Kuceviste as well.

15 Q. Could you please tell us who signed this document?

16 A. The commander of RPS Kuceviste, Taskovski Marjanco [phoen].

17 Q. In the body of this document, towards the end it is stated that

18 this is an overview of the VPO from the PS Cair who were engaged in the

19 period between the 16th of August, 2001 and the 31st of August, 2001.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you please tell us what do those dates mean?

22 A. Obviously they state the period and the list of people that were

23 engaged within that period.

24 Q. Now I would like you to look at page N006-9742, that was also

25 shown to you by my learned colleague.

Page 10291

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you have that page in front of you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Could you please tell me whether here, after item number 16 it is

5 again written RPS Kuceviste?

6 A. Yes.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you please move it further

8 up on the screen so that we can see it.

9 Q. After item number 16, we again see RPS Kuceviste.

10 Mr. Popovski, what police station do all those lists pertain to,

11 the list that you've just seen?

12 A. You mean this one?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. Kuceviste.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Now I would like to ask you to look at

16 document at tab 9. It was also shown to you by my learned colleague. And

17 that's 1D263.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you were shown the name of the person listed under number 8.

20 Do you remember that? Exhibit 1D263.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Could you please tell us, what does the first name Milevski refer

23 to? What is it?

24 A. Milevski is a last name.

25 Q. And this name in the middle, between the two names at the two

Page 10292

1 ends, what is it?

2 A. That's the father's name.

3 Q. And what is the last name?

4 A. That's the personal name.

5 Q. Mr. Popovski, could you please tell me, is the usual way in which

6 names are listed in Macedonia precisely as we can see it here, first we

7 have the last name, and then the father's name is in the middle, and then

8 the first name?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And could you please read the name of this person?

11 A. Milevski Mile Dejan.

12 Q. And without the father's name?

13 A. Milevski Dejan.

14 Q. Now I would like you to look at the document at tab 19.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, the witness and counsel are

16 kindly asked to make pauses between questions and answers.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. This is Exhibit P589.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you please look at page 2. That's N006-9722.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Well, we don't have the page, the relevant page on the screen.

23 P589, the page is N006-9722.

24 In the English version, under 07128, we have the name

25 Mile Milevski.

Page 10293

1 Could you please tell me, Mr. Popovski, does this name have

2 anything to do with the name Dejan Milevski?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you very much. Now I would like to ask you to go to tab 5

5 and to look at P592.

6 You may recall that my learned colleague from the Prosecution

7 showed you this document and asked you a number of questions pertaining to

8 this document.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Have you ever seen this document before?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Were you ever asked to make any checks regarding this person or

13 any other persons regarding their criminal records?

14 A. Absolutely not.

15 Q. Did you ever run any checks and do you know whether the

16 information contained in here is correct?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Could you please tell me, since you worked in the Ministry of

19 Interior for almost a year, and after graduating from the law school, did

20 you ever do anything related to criminal law or criminal procedure?

21 A. Never.

22 Q. Did you ever have any experience in keeping records, criminal

23 records of various -- of any people?

24 A. Never.

25 Q. Would you please tell me whether you have ever encountered in

Page 10294

1 practice a situation where judgments or judicial decisions or rulings

2 would be expunged, any such decisions against any persons?

3 A. No.

4 Q. As a lawyer, do you know that after a certain period of time any

5 penalties imposed or sanctions imposed are expunged from the records?

6 A. I couldn't be positive about my answer to this question.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, since some sections

8 of the SFRY Criminal Code have been tendered into evidence in relation to

9 some questions that have been asked, I would like the witness to be shown

10 a document that we have obtained from the Tribunal's library, if we could

11 show to the witness this document, and that would complete my re-direct

12 examination of this witness.

13 Could we please have the first page of this document up on the

14 ELMO.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Could I interrupt, please, Ms. Residovic.

16 Ms. Valabhji.

17 MS. VALABHJI: I wonder if I might be provided a copy. I don't

18 believe I have a copy of this document.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, Your Honours, we

20 obtained this document from the library during the break, and after asking

21 questions we will make copies available to our colleagues and to the

22 Trial Chamber, because we have this only in Serbo-Croatian, and I would

23 have to read the relevant Article that I want to draw Your Honours'

24 attention to in light of the evidence that has already been admitted and

25 tendered actually by the Prosecution regarding the judgments against

Page 10295

1 persons that has already been admitted.

2 JUDGE PARKER: I think you may have to wait.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. So, Mr. Popovski, it says here that this is an overview of the

5 Criminal Code of the SFRY that was put together by Professor

6 Vlado Kambovski [phoen]. And Professor Kambovski is a professor in

7 Macedonia, is he not? And this document, as can you see, is the Criminal

8 Code of the SFRY. It's written in those big block letters.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That would be the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia,

11 right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Now I would like us to go to Article 93. That's at page 49.

14 This is a provision of the Criminal Code of the SFRY pertaining to

15 the expunging of the -- any judgments entered against somebody.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And this is something that you know, as a lawyer you know that

18 convictions, the expunging of convictions is something that can be found

19 in the general part of the Criminal Code?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. I would like to us read this provision. Paragraph 1 reads as

22 follows: "A decision on the judicial caution or admonition and the

23 decision whereby the perpetrator of a crime, a decision was made not to

24 impose any sanction or punishment, shall be expunged from the criminal

25 record if the convicted person does not commit a new crime within the

Page 10296

1 period of one year from the day when the decision of the court becomes

2 final."

3 Paragraph 2: "A suspended sentence shall be expunged from the

4 criminal record after one year from the date when the period of suspension

5 expired, if, within that time-period, the convicted person has not

6 committed a new crime."

7 Paragraph 3: "A decision to impose a fine shall be expunged from

8 the criminal record upon the expiry of three years from the date when the

9 sentence was enforced, when the statute of limitations expired, or when a

10 pardon was declared, if within that time-period a convicted person has not

11 committed a new crime."

12 Paragraph 4: "Sentences up to one year in prison and sentences of

13 juvenile prison shall be expunged from the criminal record, upon the

14 expiry of five years from the date when the said sentence was served, when

15 the statute of limitations expired, or, when pardon was granted, if within

16 that time-period the convict has not committed a new crime."

17 Paragraph 5: "The court may, upon the petition of the convict,

18 decide that a prison sentence longer than one year but up to a maximum of

19 three years may be expunged from the criminal record if five years have

20 expired from the date when the sentence was served, when the statute of

21 limitations expired, or, when the pardon was granted, if in that

22 time-period, the convict has not committed a new crime."

23 You can see that that's what it says in the Criminal Code?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Could you please tell me, once the judgments are expunged pursuant

Page 10297

1 to the Criminal Code and the time limitations stipulated therein from the

2 criminal records, persons who check whether somebody has a criminal record

3 or not, can they find any information about any previous convictions, if

4 such convictions have been expunged?

5 A. No.

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to

7 tender this excerpt from the Criminal Code of the SFRY into evidence. We

8 will upload it. We will have it translated and it is an integral part of

9 the articles of the law that my learned colleague from the Prosecution has

10 already tendered into evidence and has indeed been admitted by the

11 Trial Chamber.

12 JUDGE PARKER: I think it would be -- I'm sorry, it would be

13 appropriate first to receive the translation so that there is an

14 opportunity for it to be considered by the Prosecution, and if there is no

15 objection, it can then be received into evidence. But, at the moment, I

16 think as it is untranslated it would be premature to receive it at this

17 point.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, would it be possible

19 to get a MFI.

20 JUDGE PARKER: It would be and it will be.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

22 questions, Your Honour.

23 THE REGISTRAR: This would become 1D329, Exhibit marked for

24 identification.

25 JUDGE PARKER: That is MFI P594; is that correct? I beg your

Page 10298

1 pardon, it's 1D. Yes. What was the number?

2 THE REGISTRAR: 1D329, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you very much.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE PARKER: You will be pleased to hear, sir, that that

6 concludes the questions for you. We would thank you for your attendance

7 in The Hague. You are now able to return to your ordinary affairs and the

8 court officer will show you out.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE PARKER: Good afternoon, sir. Would you please read aloud

14 the affirmation on the card that is given to you there.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you. Please sit down.

20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

21 JUDGE PARKER: I believe Mr. Mettraux has some questions for you.

22 Mr. Mettraux.

23 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Examination by Mr. Mettraux:

25 Q. Good afternoon sir. My name is Guenael Mettraux and together with

Page 10299

1 my colleague Edina Residovic I'm appearing on behalf of Mr. Boskoski.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. Sir, I'd like first to ask you to name or to state your name for

4 the record as well as the date and place of your birth.

5 A. My name is Dimitrov Branislav. I was born on the 5th of July,

6 1961 in Skopje.

7 Q. And could you indicate very briefly what educational background

8 you have in and in particular whether you hold any degrees from a

9 university?

10 A. I have graduated from the faculty of law.

11 Q. And could you state in what place or what university?

12 A. I graduated at the university in Skopje, the University Cyril and

13 Methodius, Skopje.

14 Q. And is it correct that presently you are the director of the bed

15 and breakfast and restaurant known as Dal Met Fu. Is that correct?

16 A. It is correct that since 1993 till today I am a director and one

17 of the owners of the hotel and restaurant as you said, Dal Met Fu.

18 Q. That was the grand extent of the introductory questions, Your

19 Honour. We have binders for Your Honour at this stage.

20 JUDGE PARKER: Well, they were unnecessary and you know better,

21 Mr. Mettraux.


23 Q. Mr. Dimitrov, while the binders are being distributed and will you

24 receive a copy of one of those, were you at some stage called by a

25 representative of the Defence of Mr. Boskoski who wished to meet with you?

Page 10300

1 JUDGE PARKER: No, Mr. Mettraux. I don't know what you're

2 proposing to do. We have got a 92 bis statement. That you tendered.

3 That has been received. Now you cannot now treat this witness as a full

4 witness.

5 MR. METTRAUX: We understand, Your Honour the only reason why this

6 is done is not in relation to the statement, Your Honour, but in relation

7 to the documents which have been MFI'd in relation to which we will ask a

8 few questions. Those I wish to explore very briefly, Your Honour. The

9 circumstances under which those copies were being made so that when asking

10 about this document, I will be in a position to do so. It does not

11 relate, apart from one question, to the statement.

12 JUDGE PARKER: You're saying the documents that you're going to

13 put to the witness were provided to you by the witness.

14 MR. METTRAUX: That's correct, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE PARKER: That answer you can get from him with one question

16 and proceed.


18 Q. Mr. Dimitrov, is it correct that at some stage on the day when you

19 were asked by the Defence team of Mr. Boskoski to provide a statement you

20 also provided copies of the records of the guest books of your hotel. Is

21 that correct?

22 A. Yes. The Defence lawyer Godzo called me, approached me and asked

23 me to do this, which in turn I did.

24 Q. And is it correct that the checks you carried out in those records

25 and the documents that you gave to Mr. Godzo were carried out or were done

Page 10301

1 on the day when you gave the statement to the member of the Defence team.

2 Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, this is correct. On the same day when we saw each other, I

4 gave the statement.

5 Q. And could I ask to you turn, please, to tab number 1 of your

6 binder. For the record, this would be Rule 65 ter 1D1251. And perhaps I

7 will ask you -- it would be under tab 1, Mr. Dimitrov. Thank you.

8 A. Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

9 Q. And in your binder, I'd like to ask to you turn to the last page

10 in tab 1. That would be a statement in the Macedonian language. Can you

11 see that?

12 A. Yes. I see the statement in the Macedonian language.

13 Q. And do you recognise that statement?

14 A. Yes, I recognise it. This is the statement which I gave to

15 Mr. Dragan Godzo as I mentioned.

16 Q. And in the Macedonian version, could you tell whose signature is

17 at the bottom of that page?

18 A. It is my signature at the bottom of this page.

19 Q. And is that statement true and accurate, to the best of your

20 knowledge?

21 A. This statement is as true and as accurate as I believe it to be.

22 Q. And just one matter of clarification, if I may. At paragraph 2 of

23 this paragraph [sic], you indicated that the register of guests must be

24 kept for seven years.

25 Do you see that?

Page 10302

1 A. Yes, this is correct. When the representatives of the Tribunal

2 came for the verification of this statement, I was told that this -- the

3 records were kept for seven years, which I had already made mention to her

4 when I checked with my accountants.

5 Q. And simply for the sake of clarification, could you indicate who

6 gave you this information, that such records should or had to be kept for

7 seven years?

8 A. I said I'm not sure whether I read it somewhere or perhaps this

9 was something which my accountant told me, whether I heard this from my

10 accountant.

11 Q. I'm grateful.

12 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, at this stage I would seek to tender

13 this document pursuant to Rule 92 bis.

14 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit 1D330.

16 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you.

17 Q. And just a moment ago, Mr. Dimitrov, I asked you a number of

18 questions about records that you were asked to look into by members of --

19 or a member of the Defence team of Mr. Boskoski, and after you made those

20 verifications of your records, did you provide copies of certain parts of

21 the records which you had reviewed?

22 A. Yes. I allowed and I gave to one of the Defence team to obtain

23 these documents. They were submitted to them.

24 Q. And I will come back in a moment, Mr. Dimitrov, to the actual

25 content of the books in question.

Page 10303

1 But at this stage, I will ask the registry to show what is Rule 65

2 ter 1077.

3 And, Mr. Dimitrov, this would be tab 5 of your binder.

4 I'm sorry if I misspoke. This would be Rule 65 ter 1077, please.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.

6 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, if I may assist, the tab number 5 that we

7 have is actually Exhibit P542. It's actually the first page of --

8 MR. METTRAUX: This is actually a slightly different set of

9 pictures, Your Honour. This is larger in scope than the previous one.

10 But I'm grateful to my colleague for that.

11 Q. Mr. Dimitrov, do you recognise the picture or do you recognise the

12 document that is on the picture in front of you?

13 A. Yes. I recognise this. This is a guest book from the bed and

14 breakfast Dal Met Fu.

15 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, simply for the record we have in our

16 possession at this stage the original of the two books and if there is any

17 need, we could present the original to the witness or to the Court, if

18 there is any wish.

19 Q. Mr. Dimitrov, before we go into the contents of that document.

20 And I'll ask the registry now, please, to turn to page N003-8114,

21 please.

22 Mr. Dimitrov, could you indicate what we now see on the screen?

23 What is it?

24 A. What we're looking at now, those are the last pages of the two

25 books which Mr. Godzo was interested in. In effect, what we're seeing now

Page 10304

1 are seals from the Macedonian police about the accuracy and reliability of

2 these books.

3 Q. And could you perhaps explain for the Chamber how the reliability

4 and accuracy of the record are ensured. Perhaps could you describe how

5 this seal comes to be put into your book.

6 A. First of all, we buy these books from bookstores. Then we prepare

7 the holes in the book. We have -- we thread these books, and then as such

8 we take them to the police where they're checked and are sealed and

9 whereby what is written here is stated, which means that nothing from then

10 on can be changed in those books.

11 Q. Thank you. And simply as an indication, if you can focus on the

12 top book on that picture, do you see a slight crack on the stamp of that

13 top book? Can you see that?

14 A. Yes, I see it.

15 Q. And do you know how that slight crack of the stamp of the police

16 came to occur?

17 A. This slight crack, unfortunately, happened when Mr. Thomas, and I

18 apologise I don't know his last name, when Mr. Thomas wanted to look into

19 the books, I presume wanting to see whether everything is in good order

20 with them, even without wanting to do so, I don't know, perhaps this is

21 something that he did unwittingly. This is what the receptionist told me.

22 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.

23 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, just for the record this issue which is

24 quite important was not put to Mr. Thomas Kuehnel when he was

25 cross-examined by my learned colleague, and I believe that that issue

Page 10305

1 should have been put at that moment.

2 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, my colleague is quite right. We only

3 learned about the crack over the weekend when the witness brought us the

4 book in question. We had no idea up to that point what was the reason or

5 the cause of the crack in question.

6 If we can move now to the next page, please.

7 JUDGE PARKER: In a moment, Mr. Mettraux.

8 [Trial Chamber confers]

9 JUDGE PARKER: Yes, continue, please, Mr. Mettraux.

10 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you.

11 If the registry could please turn to the next page.

12 Q. Mr. Dimitrov, could you say what we -- or could you describe what

13 we see now on this picture?

14 A. This picture shows the first page of both books. In the left

15 corner, there is the thread binding the book, and then the right angle is

16 the stamp of Dal Met Fu.

17 Q. And does the little cord that we see in the middle of the page go

18 through the entire book?

19 A. Yes. They go through the whole book, and on the previous picture,

20 you could have seen how they're bound and how this paper is sealed and --

21 glued and then sealed.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 Could we please move on to the next page.

24 Mr. Dimitrov, could you describe what that is on this page that we

25 see.

Page 10306

1 A. This is the glued piece of paper which you saw from the police,

2 and the seal is from the Republic of Macedonia from the Ministry of

3 Interior.

4 Q. And would it be correct to say that the same text and seal of the

5 Macedonian Ministry of Interior appeared in both books that were in front

6 of you a moment ago?

7 A. Yes, this is correct. I believe that this is the seal from the

8 books, this picture is taken from the books.

9 Q. And perhaps if the witness can be shown what is Rule 65 ter

10 1D1321, please. This should be under tabs 6 bis of your binder.

11 MR. METTRAUX: And, Your Honour, simply for the record, this would

12 be the last page of a much larger document which is 65 ter 1214.

13 Q. This would be tab 6 bis, Mr. Dimitrov.

14 Can you see what that is, that is in front of you now on the

15 screen or on the paper copy that you have?

16 A. Yes. I can see that this is exactly what I was mentioning, the

17 last page of the book which is glued over the book together with the cord.

18 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, at this stage we'd seek to tender the

19 set of pictures which is Rule 65 ter 1077, as well as the document

20 presently on the screen, which is Rule 65 ter 1D1321 with its translation.

21 JUDGE PARKER: They will be received.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 1077 will become 1D331; 1D1321 will

23 become 1D332.

24 MR. METTRAUX: I'm grateful.

25 Q. Mr. Dimitrov, I would like to ask you now to turn to tab 2 of your

Page 10307

1 binder, please, and I'll ask the registry to bring up what is Exhibit

2 1D244, MFI.

3 I don't think we have the right document on the screen. It would

4 be Exhibit 1D244, MFI. Thank you.

5 Mr. Dimitrov, do you recognise the document that is in front of

6 you and could you say what that is, if you do recognise it?

7 A. Yes. I recognise this document. This is a page of the books we

8 have been discussing.

9 Q. And is it a part of the book that you gave copy of to the

10 representative of the Defence of Mr. Boskoski, if you can recall?

11 A. Yes. This is a page of the book. It says here, page 41, which I

12 gave.

13 Q. Could you perhaps describe briefly for the Chamber the process of

14 taking down the names and other details of hotel guests in that book.

15 A. Of course. First of all, under item 1 is number, which vary.

16 Each guest receives a particular number. Then the last name and the first

17 name of the foreign guest is registered. The date and place of birth is

18 in column 3. Nationality is listed in column number 4. Type and number

19 of passport, or ID card is in item 5. In item 6, where it is empty, this

20 is for Visas, it is obvious that not many guests needed to have visas to

21 enter Macedonia. Under 7 is the room number of the guest. Number 8, the

22 date of arrival. Number 9, date of departure. And in item 10, are notes,

23 if any.

24 Q. I'm grateful. And just looking at this page, Mr. Dimitrov, there

25 you can see that under number 241 and 244 the same person appears to have

Page 10308

1 been recorded. And let me ask you this then. In August of 2001, was an

2 entry made every day for every guest? Is that how it was done?

3 A. Well, in the period which you're mentioning, the rules which we

4 received, the instructions which we received from the MOI for control of

5 foreign persons, we had to register every day on a daily basis. If a

6 guest were to stay five days, then he would be listed for five days in a

7 row, or 15, if necessary.

8 Q. And --

9 JUDGE PARKER: Now -- Ms. Regue.

10 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, I was going to ask my learned colleague

11 not to be so leading when he was asking questions. And secondly, I see

12 that my learned colleague asked about August 2001, and the witness answer

13 in the period you are mentioning, I was wondering whether he is referring

14 basically to August 2001.

15 MR. METTRAUX: I can clarify that, Your Honour.

16 Q. Did the procedure which you indicated, or was the procedure which

17 you've just described a moment ago, was that applicable in August of 2001?

18 A. Yes. In August 2001, this procedure was applied. Every person

19 was registered every day individually.

20 Q. And did that methodology or you said the rules that were imposed

21 by the foreign police department of the MOI, did this methodology changed

22 [sic] at any time, at any point of time?

23 A. When we started working, this was so. However, later on the

24 methodology changed, and now we work under a different methodology, when a

25 guest arrives, one item registers the date of his arrival and the date of

Page 10309

1 departure. Therefore, if he remains with us for five days, he is only in

2 one row, not as previously, when this was listed five times in a row.

3 Q. And as far as you can recall, or if you can recall, do you

4 remember when these rules applicable to the matter of registration or

5 recording of foreign guests were changed? Can you recall that?

6 A. I cannot recall with certainty when this changed, because much

7 time has passed since then. But I do know that since we started working

8 differently than before, that means that the Ministry of Interior told us

9 that we would have to follow a different set of rules and we immediately

10 started applying them as they were indicated to us.

11 Q. And just looking at the document or the page that you have in

12 front of you, could you say who in your hotel or bed and breakfast is

13 responsible to make those entries into the book?

14 A. At that time which you're bringing up, if you're interested about

15 this period of time, there was a girl by the name of Snjezana Boneva at

16 that time, and she is now Snjezana Vojnovska; she married. She was

17 working there for several years, five or six. I cannot recall precisely.

18 Q. And was there another person or persons that also sometimes made

19 entries into that book?

20 A. Since this is a very small bed and breakfast, six room at all, we

21 had two persons employed; Snjezana for the most part did this work. There

22 was another person Dane, I don't recall his last name. So when Snjezana

23 was unable or when she was not working on that shift, it was this person

24 who did this kind of work.

25 Q. And that information that appears on the guest book, the name of

Page 10310

1 the person, the date and place of birth, nationality and so on, did you

2 record that information in any other document or records that were kept at

3 the hotel?

4 A. First of all, when the guest comes, we are obliged, because of

5 police registration reasons on a cardboard form to list this information

6 and at the end of the day, in the case that there are guests of course, to

7 take these to the police stations with all of the information which are

8 listed here.

9 Q. And who at the hotel would be responsible to write down or make

10 those -- I think you called them cardboard? Who was that that would do

11 that work?

12 A. Mainly, as I said before, this was done most frequently by

13 Snjezana Boneva, or Vojnovska now that is her last name at the moment,

14 because she was the person who most often worked in the first shift, in

15 the morning shift.

16 Q. And who would bring those cartons or cardboards to the police?

17 A. On regular basis, the carton forms were taken to the police by the

18 person who was working on the second afternoon shift and that was most

19 frequently the second receptionist by the name of Dare.

20 Q. And would such records, that is the name the date of birth and so

21 on and so forth, be made for each and every one of your guests at the

22 hotel both on the guest book and on the cardboards?

23 A. They had to be identical.

24 Q. And it was done or was it done for each and every one of the

25 guests?

Page 10311

1 A. Yes. It was always done for every guest.

2 Q. And when you were asked by the representative of the Defence of

3 Mr. Boskoski to review one of the guest books in search of a particular

4 name, the name of a particular person, did you find whether that person

5 had stayed at your hotel in the month of August of 2001?

6 A. Yes. I determined that this person stayed in the bed and

7 breakfast in August 2001.

8 Q. And perhaps we can turn to what is page 50 of that document, which

9 would be 1D00-2911, please.

10 That would be page 10 on the paper copy that you've been given, I

11 believe, Mr. Dimitrov.

12 In the Macedonian version, I apologise, this would be 1D00-2895.

13 Mr. Dimitrov, I'll ask you to focus on number 296, the recording

14 number 296. Can you see that?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. And was that the first entry in the guest book which contained the

17 name of that individual for the month of August of 2001?

18 A. Yes. That is the first registry in the room 14 of that -- where

19 that individual stayed.

20 Q. And were you able to determine whether this person, Mr. Hutsch,

21 had stayed in your hotel at any time prior to the 22nd of August 2001, and

22 I mean earlier in the month of August 2001? Was there any such records

23 made?

24 A. Following the guest books, me and Snjezana did not see that the

25 person that you mentioned, Mr. Franz-Josef, was a guest in our hotel in

Page 10312

1 the month of August, apart from this date that we mentioned.

2 Q. And perhaps if we can go to the next page, please.

3 Is it correct that Mr. Franz-Josef Hutsch is recorded again under

4 number 300 and 305 for the nights of the 23rd to the 24th of August, and

5 from the 24th of August to the 25th of August. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that is correct. For each day, just as I mentioned earlier,

7 we had the obligation to register the guest. That is correct. We have

8 the name Franz-Josef Hutsch under the numbers 300 and 305.

9 Q. And moving on quickly to the next page, please.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Can we shorten this, Mr. Mettraux.

11 Is it that he is entered in your register each day until the 31st

12 of August, 2001?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It means that he was

14 registered in the guest book until the 31st of August, 2001.

15 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

16 MR. METTRAUX: I'm grateful to Your Honour and perhaps if I could

17 use the last two minutes to seek to tender this document, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit 1D244.

20 MR. METTRAUX: Would this be a convenient time, Your Honour?


22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 --- Recess taken at 5.43 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 6.14 p.m.

25 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.

Page 10313

1 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 Q. Mr. Dimitrov, those records or guest books that we've looked into,

3 where do you keep them once they've been used and once they're full of

4 entries? Where do you put them?

5 A. The guest books and the entries of each guest, did you mean to ask

6 me where we keep the book itself?

7 Q. Yes, please.

8 A. Mr. Mettraux, we keep the book in our bookkeeping office, once the

9 book is all filled in. The book that is being used is kept at the

10 reception desk.

11 Q. And concerning those who are being kept in the bookkeeping office,

12 who has access to that room?

13 A. Mr. Mettraux, access to that room is given to the employees, the

14 accountants, the receptionists, in principle, the persons that are

15 employed. Me, including, as well as my supervisors.

16 Q. I'd like to ask you something slightly different now. How do you

17 prepare invoices for your guests or customers?

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux, this is not covered by the 92 bis

19 statement is it?

20 MR. METTRAUX: We understand, Your Honour, and we can explain

21 perhaps what's happened over the course of the weekend. Mr. Dimitrov

22 brought with him the two original books with him together with a couple of

23 invoices which we have given immediately to our colleagues of the

24 Prosecution together with a translation and an indication in the proofing

25 notes that we may ask the witness about this particular matter. The

Page 10314

1 reason we want to ask about it, Your Honour, is because of the matching,

2 if you want, between the invoice and the records.

3 [Trial Chamber confers]

4 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on, please, but be very brief.

5 MR. METTRAUX: I will be very short, Your Honour.

6 Q. Could the witness -- well, first let me ask you this, a general

7 question, Mr. Dimitrov. Could you tell me who prepares the invoices in

8 your hotel or bed and breakfast.

9 A. The invoices are made usually by the person that works in the

10 first shift. For this particular case the invoices were made by Snjezana

11 Boneva.

12 MR. METTRAUX: Could the witness be shown what is Rule 65 ter

13 1D1313, and that would be under tab 3 of the binder.

14 Q. Mr. Dimitrov, are you able to say who that invoice relates to,

15 what person or guest?

16 A. Mr. Mettraux, here we have a receipt, not an invoice. A receipt

17 that was paid in cash. The guest for which this receipt refers to is

18 Hutsch Franz. This is what was typed on the computer, and the receipt

19 that, at the time, could be bought. Again we see the name of the guest

20 Franz-Josef Hutsch, and the amount paid, amount of 28.700 dinars, if that

21 is relevant.

22 Q. And perhaps I will ask you to and the registry, please, to turn to

23 the next page of that document.

24 And would that be the invoice that you just mentioned a moment

25 ago?

Page 10315

1 A. What we are seeing now is one single bill for the stay in August,

2 when Mr. Hutsch slept in the hotel. First, you have the receipt, which is

3 the first document that you showed. That is a receipt for daily exchange,

4 meaning our bookkeeper paid to the bank the amount is 28.700 dinars which

5 means that the bank received this amount of money, the amount that I

6 received from Mr. Hutsch. The second page is the computer report, because

7 we have guest registration in the computer as well. So this is a report

8 about the person Franz Hutsch for the same date, meaning 22nd of August

9 until 31st of August, 2001. And the third page is, again, a bill that we

10 had to have at the time, because the bill has an order number. This is

11 3155. So this bill we bought and the amount on the bill had to correspond

12 to the amount that is on the receipt and that was paid in the bank, the

13 amount that is paid for that particular person.

14 Q. And perhaps -- perhaps very briefly turning to the next page, the

15 third page of that document. Is that the third and last document that you

16 mentioned a moment ago, Mr. Dimitrov?

17 A. Mr. Mettraux, yes. That is the third and the last document that I

18 just mentioned.

19 Q. And does the information contained in this particular document, in

20 particular the ID number of the person as well as the date of the stay and

21 the room number as well as the name, does it correspond to the information

22 that is recorded in your guest book?

23 A. Yes, that is correct. At the time, on the bill we had to put the

24 information such as the name of the guest, where he came from, and the

25 amount, as well as the number of the nights or days that individual spent

Page 10316

1 in our hotel. So that they can correspond with the receipt and the amount

2 of money that were -- that was deposited in the bank.

3 MR. METTRAUX: I would seek leave to add this particular document

4 to our Rule 65 ter list for the reason we explained. We didn't have the

5 document at the time of filing our list. And I would also seek to tender

6 this document in evidence.

7 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will become Exhibit 1D333.

9 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Dimitrov, did you have any reason to believe that anyone

11 falsified the records of your hotel, whether it is the guest book or the

12 invoices that relate to Mr. Hutsch?

13 A. No, I never had any reasons to suspect that.

14 Q. And one last question, Mr. Dimitrov. For the record, have you

15 ever been convicted of any criminal offence?

16 A. No. I don't have a record of criminal offence.

17 MR. METTRAUX: I have no further question at this stage,

18 Your Honour.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you, Mr. Mettraux.

20 Any questions, Mr. Apostolski?

21 MR. APOSTOLSKI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours. I

22 have no questions for this witness.

23 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.

24 Ms. Regue.

25 Cross-examination by Ms. Regue:

Page 10317

1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dimitrov. My name is Meritxell Regue and I'm

2 appearing on behalf of the Prosecution and I will be asking you some

3 questions today.

4 Mr. Dimitrov, the hotel Dal Met Fu is part of the Dal Fufo

5 Corporation, correct?

6 A. It is correct that the hotel Dal Met Fu is part of Dal Fufo. I

7 have to also mention this, that each unit works individually.

8 Q. Thanks. And the other shareholder and co-owner of this

9 corporation is Ljupco Nikolovski, your first cousin, right?

10 A. Ms. Regue, Ljupco Nikolovski is my second cousin.

11 Q. Excuse me. But is he still the co-owner or the shareholder of

12 this corporation of the hotel Dal Met Fu?

13 A. The documents which we have state that his sister is the co-owner,

14 Ms. Regue.

15 Q. Thanks. And your company, your corporation, not only owns the

16 hotel but it also owns several restaurants in Skopje and Macedonia,

17 catering service companies and also some restaurants in Greece, right?

18 And I would ask for a brief answer, Mr. Dimitrov, if it's possible.

19 A. Yes, Ms. Regue, you are correct.

20 Q. You must be a busy person, right, with a hectic schedule,

21 travelling quite often due to work commitments, right?

22 A. Yes, Ms. Regue, I travel quite often. About being busy, of

23 course, I am very busy. My work hours extend 12 hours or more.

24 Q. And would you agree with me that the hotel Dal Met Fu, despite

25 being small, has become quite an upscale bed and breakfast where an

Page 10318

1 important number of foreigners stay over the year, right?

2 A. Ms. Regue, if you wish to say that there distinguished or that my

3 establishment has become upscale, that I would agree with you and I would

4 thank you for your compliments.

5 Q. And would you also agree that as customers, as clients you have an

6 important number of foreigners?

7 A. Ms. Regue, I agree with you that I have a large number of foreign

8 customers.

9 Q. And would you agree also that the hotel has several restaurants,

10 Restaurant Galija, for example, or Dal Met Fu, Dal Fufo restaurant, and

11 these restaurants are frequented by prominent people of the Macedonian

12 society, right?

13 A. Ms. Regue, I agree with you.

14 Q. And just to clarify the hotel is located in Macedonia Square which

15 is downtown Skopje, right?

16 A. Yes, Ms. Regue, this is correct.

17 Q. And well, as a prominent businessman you must be aware and also as

18 a lawyer, you must be aware, actually of the applicable law to your type

19 of business, right?

20 A. Yes, Ms. Regue. I agree with you.

21 Q. And also the importance of respecting the law, right?

22 A. I agree with you, Ms. Regue.

23 Q. And, Mr. Dimitrov, just to clarify, when your hotel start

24 operating, start running as a bed and breakfast?

25 A. Ms. Regue, I remember the date 23rd of May, 2001. I remember this

Page 10319

1 day precisely.

2 Q. Okay. And when, in your statement you say that you were the

3 director of the hotel since 1993, before, I think, sorry, what did you

4 mean exactly?

5 A. Ms. Regue, I wanted to say that the restaurant existed since 1991

6 and I am director of the restaurant. The hotel, or, rather, the bed and

7 breakfast is only a part of the restaurant. All of this is part of the

8 same company of which I am the director.

9 Q. Thanks for the clarification.

10 Mr. Dimitrov, you may recall a visit of an investigator of this

11 Tribunal together with his interpreter in October 2001. He came to your

12 hotel requesting copies of the lists of guests from July and August 2000,

13 2001, and 2002. Do you recall his visit, Mr. Dimitrov, right?

14 A. Ms. Regue, Mr. Thomas, again, my apologies, I cannot recall his

15 last name, I have met twice with him.

16 Q. You met twice with him. And in one of these encounters, an

17 employee of yours, a Snjezana Boneva, I believe, made some copies for

18 Mr. Thomas Kuehnel of two guest books, foreign guest books of the hotel.

19 The first foreign guest book which runs from May 2001 until March 2002,

20 and the second foreign guest book which runs from March 2002 till March

21 2004.

22 Do you recall that, Mr. Dimitrov?

23 A. Ms. Regue, yes, I do recall this, because I received Mr. Kuehnel,

24 and I took him to see Mrs. Vojnovska. This is again the same person,

25 Ms. Boneva at the time. Therefore, I took him to see Mrs. Vojnovska and I

Page 10320

1 told him that she would assist with him anything he might need.

2 MS. REGUE: If we could please go to 65 ter 1217 which is tab 13

3 of Your Honour's binder.

4 Q. And it should be --

5 MS. REGUE: Excuse me, I will first distribute the binders, my

6 apologies. No, we're going to give you a binder, Mr. Dimitrov. In

7 e-court it should be the page 15 in Macedonian, and there is only one

8 English translation.

9 Q. If we could focus in paragraph 2. This is Article -- it is tab 13

10 of your binder, Mr. Dimitrov. You are going to be looking at Article 73

11 of the Law on Residence of Movement of Foreigners, dated 1992, which was

12 applicable in 2001. Article 73.

13 A. Mm-hm.

14 Q. Do you see it, Mr. Dimitrov? If we read the second paragraph --

15 well, the first paragraph starts: "As enterprises and other legal

16 entities and individuals who provide services on a paid accommodation for

17 foreigners, are obliged to keep record of the foreigners, book on

18 foreigners."

19 And then the second paragraph reads and I quote: "The records of

20 foreigners shall be kept in a period of two years from the day it was

21 concluded."

22 Mr. Dimitrov, would you agree with me that the law states that the

23 foreign guest books should be kept for a period of two years, meaning if

24 you finish your first guest book in March 2002, legally have you to keep

25 until March 2004. Is that correct?

Page 10321

1 A. The book of foreigners which you mentioned, yes. But I was

2 referring to the bills, and the need to keep them for seven years.

3 Q. Okay. But would you agree with me that the law only requires that

4 the book of foreigners should be kept for two years. Correct?

5 A. Yes, Ms. Regue. Here it says that the records for foreigners

6 should be kept for a period of two years from the date it was concluded.

7 Q. If we could go to 1D330, which is tab 1, is the 92 bis statement

8 of yourself, Mr. Dimitrov.

9 If we could go to the next page, please.

10 Mr. Dimitrov, you will see that in paragraph 2 of your statement

11 you mention that proper records are kept of all the hotel guests in the

12 register of guests. In keeping with the regulations, the register of

13 guests must be kept for seven years.

14 Yet, Mr. Dimitrov, we have seen what the law says, but in your

15 statement you were quite clear that the books had to be kept for seven

16 years. Mr. Dimitrov, either -- would you agree with me, Mr. Dimitrov,

17 that you actually were incorrect in your statement?

18 A. Ms. Regue, I previously said when we were discussing my statement

19 that I wasn't sure whether I had read this someplace or whether some from

20 my accounting office told me this.

21 Q. Well, here paragraph 2 is quite clear, Mr. Dimitrov. It says:

22 "Must be kept."

23 And when you met with the representative of the registry of this

24 Tribunal in January 2008, I believe that you were given the opportunity,

25 right, to modify or to correct your statement and you didn't do so, right?

Page 10322

1 A. Ms. Regue, when I said for the first time to speak about my

2 statement, I said clearly and it is probably included in the transcript, I

3 mentioned that I wasn't certain how long this book should be kept, whether

4 I had heard this somewhere or whether I had read it somewhere. Whether I

5 read this or whether my accountant told me this. This was told to the

6 representative from the registry of the ICTY to confirm my statement. It

7 was a lady with dark hair. I apologise, I don't remember the name. I did

8 this in front of her, the attorney Godzo and Kumovski [phoen].

9 Q. Well, Mr. Dimitrov, apparently this is not recorded in your 92 bis

10 statement so I believe you that did not say that because it's not

11 recorded. But now I will move on.

12 If we could please go to 65 ter -- well, before that, Mr. Dimitrov

13 you have testified that you have not been convicted with criminal charges,

14 but have you ever been indicted with criminal charges?

15 A. Previously, I had mentioned that I have not been convicted of a

16 criminal act; indicted, yes.

17 Q. If we could please go to 65 ter 1211. It is tab 2 of the binder.

18 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.

19 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, before we go we would like to have ask

20 for specification on the part of the Prosecution about the alleged

21 relevance of that document. We have sent an email to the Office of the

22 Prosecution over the course of the weekend to query this matter and try to

23 determine with them what the alleged relevance of that document is and the

24 Prosecution has declined to give that indication to the Defence. And we

25 would be grateful if the Prosecution would be able at this stage to give

Page 10323

1 an indication to that effect which would allow us, if necessary, to object

2 to the presentation of this document, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Ms. Regue.

4 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, we believe that this document goes to the

5 credibility and to the honesty of this witness and the witness's evidence

6 that he has given today in court.

7 JUDGE PARKER: Is it your case that he was convicted on this

8 indictment?

9 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, as far as we know, we know that this is a

10 pending indictment issued in 2007.

11 JUDGE PARKER: Pending, I see.

12 MS. REGUE: Yes, we believe the proceeding is ongoing.

13 JUDGE PARKER: Very well.

14 Mr. Mettraux.

15 MR. METTRAUX: I apologise for taking the Court's time,

16 Your Honour. I simply wish to indicate that this matter has already been

17 litigated at least on one occasion with the witness Mr. Kuehnel where a

18 similar issue arose. At page 7973 to 7977, it was clearly indicated that

19 an indictment was proof of no matter relevant to the credit. Furthermore,

20 as indicated by my colleague, those proceedings are pending. Furthermore,

21 as we understand it and to the extent that we can assist, the trial in

22 this case has not even started.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE PARKER: It will be received.

25 MS. REGUE: Can I present the evidence now, Your Honours. Thanks.

Page 10324

1 Q. If you could please go to tab 2, Mr. Dimitrov. I will try to be

2 quite brief.

3 We can see in the first page that the basic public prosecutor is

4 issuing an indictment against Ljupco Nikolovski, owner of the corporation

5 Dal Met Fu and yourself, Branislav Dimitrov. I just notice that in the

6 third line, number 2, it says, that have you secondary school education.

7 Mr. Dimitrov, which is correct, secondary school education or did you

8 study law?

9 A. May I respond by saying that two mistakes have been made. The

10 first one regarding the fact that it states that I have finished secondary

11 school education. If it is necessary, through DHL or by other means I can

12 send to you my original diploma.

13 The second mistake is in regards that Ljupco Nikolovski, the owner

14 of the corporation Dal Met Fu. In the documents this is not listed

15 anywhere, so this is the second mistake that is made. The ownership

16 papers do not have his name anywhere.

17 Q. I believe, Mr. Dimitrov, that will be litigated in Court. I

18 forgot to mention that the date of this indictment is the 2nd of May,

19 2007.

20 If you see in the paragraph below, basically it says,

21 Mr. Dimitrov, that you and your partner fail to pay some debts back in

22 2001, which were actually judicially declared and then you apply for

23 bankruptcy procedure in February 2003.

24 If we could please go to the second page.

25 In the second page, we see that in the first paragraph it reads

Page 10325

1 that due to these actions, you and your partner allegedly committed the

2 criminal act of false bankruptcy which is described in Article 254 in

3 relation to Article 22 of the Macedonian Criminal Code. And then we see

4 that the prosecutor proposes several measures, but I will skip that.

5 If we could go please, to the third page, briefly.

6 We see that in Roman number III, the prosecutor requests to the

7 Court, to declare the accused, meaning yourself and your cousin,

8 culpable. And if we move to the paragraph, starting during February 2003,

9 basically the paragraph repeats that in 2003, you and your partner

10 initiated a bankruptcy procedure to avoid paying some debts. The last

11 paragraph reads and I quote: "The above stated facts emerge beyond doubt

12 from the written evidence supplemented by verbal statements of all

13 witnesses."

14 Mr. Dimitrov, in the course of these proceedings you did issue a

15 statement, didn't you?

16 A. Should I start responding, Ms. Regue?

17 First of all --

18 Q. Please, if you could -- my apologies. If could you just answer my

19 question whether in the course of these proceedings you did issue a

20 statement before the investigative judge or the prosecutor. That was my

21 only question, Mr. Dimitrov.

22 A. Ms. Regue, on the 11th of March, as scheduled as a date for the

23 trial, not the 2nd of May; and secondly, it is true that I gave a

24 statement in front of investigative judge.

25 Q. Thanks. If we could move, please, to page 4. The second

Page 10326

1 paragraph starting on 6th of June, 2002, explains that the bankruptcy

2 procedure was -- well, explains the bankruptcy procedure and how it was

3 closed because the debtor, meaning yourself, was not found in possession

4 of any property, after a review of statements on the economic and

5 financial situation of the debtor, and upon a statement of the

6 representative of the debtor. But, Mr. Dimitrov, you have testified that

7 you have been the -- you are actually and you have been the owner of the

8 hotel Dal Met Fu at least since 2001, and the restaurant, I believe, since

9 1993, right, so you did have some properties at that time?

10 A. Do you want me to respond to you, Ms. Regue? There is a mistake

11 again and the mistake is what I told you in the beginning, that each unit

12 works independently. That's one. Number two, the bankruptcy procedure

13 was for the restaurant which is --

14 Q. Mr. Dimitrov, my only question was about your ownership. Here you

15 are not being tried about this proceeding. My only question was whether

16 back in 2001 or even before that, you or yourself through any of your

17 companies were actually owning restaurants or hotels, as I understood that

18 you testified that here before this Court.

19 A. Ms. Regue, this is where your mistake is. The company was

20 litigated, not me personally. There was a debt of 800 dinars that the

21 company was supposed to pay, not me personally.

22 Q. Okay. I will move on.

23 In the second paragraph, indeed it is mentioned -- excuse me, can

24 we move to page 5 and I will just finish.

25 The second paragraph of page 5 of this document states that you

Page 10327

1 indeed issue some allegations and you said that your bank account had been

2 blocked and actually the prosecutor finds these allegation -- these

3 allegations untruthful.

4 And, finally the prosecutor states that you and your partner's

5 conduct falls within the category of the criminal act of false bankruptcy.

6 Mr. Dimitrov, you were indeed dishonest before an investigating

7 judge, right, to avoid fulfilling with your legal obligations, weren't

8 you?

9 A. Ms. Regue, I am very sorry that I have to reiterate that you make

10 a mistake again. It is the company that is litigated, not the person.

11 Maybe this is a difference between the legal system in your country and in

12 my country, but the company was litigated, not me.

13 MS. REGUE: That I believe --

14 JUDGE PARKER: Waiting for you to be sure that the witness had

15 finished.

16 Yes, Mr. Mettraux.

17 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I believe that the proposition that my

18 colleague has just made was a rather serious one and we won't object to

19 any serious propositions being made to the witness to the extent that it

20 would allow to test the credibility of the witness but we believe that it

21 has to be made fairly and that before accusing the witness of having been

22 dishonest with her, in a judicial proceeding or otherwise, a basis for

23 such assertion should be established, in our submission.

24 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, I was basically quoting what the

25 prosecutor said with regards to the allegations. But I will move on from

Page 10328

1 this topic.

2 JUDGE PARKER: As the Chamber sees it at the moment, Ms. Regue,

3 there is an allegation in an indictment which has not been tried.

4 MS. REGUE: That's correct, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE PARKER: Now, the witness says this was a corporate debt,

6 not his personal debt.

7 MS. REGUE: That's what I understood from his evidence,

8 Your Honours.


10 MS. REGUE: But I see --

11 JUDGE PARKER: Now, what else do you see that could be relevant to

12 this case?

13 MS. REGUE: I was going to put to this witness, Your Honours, that

14 in the course of the proceedings it seems that the legal or the financial

15 representative of this witness presented some documentation to the -- to a

16 court of justice in order to declare false bankruptcy. In other words,

17 that false documentation was presented before a court of law. And

18 that's -- that's what is being tried right now.

19 JUDGE PARKER: Well, this Chamber has problems with you in fact if

20 that's where you're intending to go, asking this witness whether in this

21 proceeding which is pending against him in another court, he has been

22 guilty of what you would clearly allege to be criminal conduct.

23 MS. REGUE: No, Your Honour, I simply meant that he was dishonest.

24 My --

25 JUDGE PARKER: Before -- dishonest to a court is what you're

Page 10329

1 saying.

2 MS. REGUE: Investigative judge, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. It's not an issue that we can try. It's away

4 from the facts of this case.

5 MS. REGUE: Okay, Your Honour, I will move on from that.

6 JUDGE PARKER: Yes. I think it would be far better because we

7 would, I fear, have to stop you at any moment now because of the nature of

8 your questioning.

9 MS. REGUE: I was done, Your Honour, in any event.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Thank you.


12 Q. Mr. Dimitrov, you have testified -- you have testified about the

13 way of recording the entry of the guests in the foreign guest book, right,

14 and you have testified how at some point in time, the recording of the

15 guests changed, but you are not aware of the time when that happened

16 actually. That's correct?

17 A. Ms. Regue, I cannot determine the exact date when the change

18 occurred. It was noticed in the control of foreign data before the

19 Ministry of Interior Affairs.

20 Q. Would you agree with me, Mr. Dimitrov, that the first book which

21 you gave to the investigator Thomas Kuehnel has one way of recording and

22 the second book which starts in March 2002, already works with the second

23 way of recording the entry of the guests?

24 A. Ms. Regue, if you say so, then I believe it is correct.

25 Q. For example, if we could go briefly to tab 3, which is Exhibit

Page 10330

1 1D244.

2 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.

3 MR. METTRAUX: Your Honour, I apologise to interrupt once again

4 but just as a matter of clarification upon the question of my colleague is

5 the suggestion being made that the new methodology was implemented

6 immediately on to the second book. We believe if that's the suggestion

7 that is made, that is quite incorrect.

8 MS. REGUE: Your Honour, that was the suggestion that I was making

9 by my learned colleague maybe can deal with that in re-examination.

10 JUDGE PARKER: Carry on.


12 Q. Okay. Mr. Dimitrov, do you see that in the entry -- well,

13 basically in this first guest book, Mr. Dimitrov, you already testified

14 that if one guest stays several days, there will be a single entry for

15 every single day that this person stays at your hotel, right?

16 A. Yes, Ms. Regue. When we started to work that is the principle

17 that we used, the one that you're talking about.

18 Q. For example, in the entry 245, we see actually one person who

19 stayed in the hotel from the 9th to the 10th of August, 2001, right? And

20 if we could go to the second page, please, of this exhibit. And if you

21 could, please, look at the entry 247, we can see the same person who

22 stayed there the following night, basically, from the 10th to the 11th of

23 August, 2001. Correct?

24 A. Ms. Regue, yes. And the same person appears under the number 251.

25 Q. Thanks. If now we could go, please, to 65 ter 1213, which is tab

Page 10331

1 10, and it should be the page 36 in e-court. And there is no English

2 translations.

3 MS. REGUE: Your Honours, it should be ERN -- the page with ERN

4 N006-5801, and it bears the number 35 in the hard copy.

5 Q. Did you find, Mr. Dimitrov? It's tab 10. It should be the page

6 with number 35 in the upper right corner of your document. If you wish,

7 can you look at the screen.

8 A. Yes. I see what you're showing to me. But there is probably a

9 mistake here. On the document that I have, it says it is page 42 and what

10 you are showing on the screen is page 35. If you are talking about the

11 same person.

12 Q. Look, Mr. Dimitrov, we move to another document. If you could

13 please go to tab --

14 JUDGE PARKER: I'm afraid time is going to prevent you, Ms. Regue.

15 MS. REGUE: I just have one minute, Your Honour. I just have one

16 minute, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE PARKER: Half one minute, I believe you. Carry on.


19 Q. If could you please go to tab 10. We should see number 35 on the

20 upper right side. Mr. Dimitrov, this is the second guest book, the one

21 which goes from March 2002 to March 2004. And if we could see it in the

22 screen, please.

23 Just -- sorry, if we could go, please, to page 36 in e-court,

24 which would be page 35 in the hard copy. The next page in e-court,

25 please. Thanks.

Page 10332

1 Mr. Dimitrov, just briefly, do you see that in the second guest

2 book the entry with the number 208, a person from Tripoli or born in

3 Tripoli, he check in in your hotel the 22nd, I believe, of April 2002, at

4 2.00 a.m., and he check out on the 1st of May, 2002. Do you see that in

5 this second guest book there is only one single entry for the stay of one

6 person in the hotel?

7 A. Yes, Ms. Regue. I see that.

8 Q. Thanks, Mr. Dimitrov.

9 JUDGE PARKER: Mr. Mettraux.

10 MR. METTRAUX: I apologise, Your Honour, but once again the

11 question was formulated in such a way by my colleague to suggest that this

12 would be the case in all parts of the book. I think if she were to ask

13 about this particular page of the book, it would be an appropriate

14 question. We do believe, however, that it could mislead the witness to

15 suggest it is the same manner --

16 JUDGE PARKER: I think, Mr. Mettraux, you better not go on to what

17 the witness may or may not say about it. That will be perhaps a matter

18 for cross-examination tomorrow.

19 We must adjourn now to continue tomorrow at 2.15.

20 I am afraid, Mr. Dimitrov, we must ask you to return tomorrow when

21 the questioning will continue. We will commence sitting at 2.15 tomorrow.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I really feel very

23 comfortable here. So I don't mind at all.

24 JUDGE PARKER: We won't arrange to extend your stay longer than

25 necessary.

Page 10333

1 We will adjourn. I'm a little worried how long this will take

2 because Mr. Apostolski was hoping to open tomorrow, and I --

3 MS. REGUE: Being conservative, I would say 40 minutes. Being

4 conservative.

5 JUDGE PARKER: 40 minutes. We will not be able to sit the full

6 length of time tomorrow and will need to adjourn by between quarter to

7 6.00 and 6.00, and we certainly want to give Mr. Apostolski his full time

8 for opening, so if counsel can keep that in mind.

9 Thank you.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day of March,

12 2008, at 2.15 p.m.