1 Thursday, 20 July 2000
2 [Status Conference]
3 [Open session]
4 --- Upon commencing at 11.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE HUNT: Now, the Status Conference. Does counsel for either
6 accused wish to raise any matter under Rule 65 bis for the Trial Chamber's
8 Mr. Ackerman, you're first on the record.
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have nothing to raise with regard to
10 the Status Conference this morning.
11 JUDGE HUNT: Mr. De Roux.
12 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We would like
13 to have clarification for several points with the Prosecution. We had a
14 conversation this morning which may allow us to make some proposals in
15 respect of the holding of the trial.
16 The Prosecution told us this morning that the disclosure of
17 documents that we've been asking for for some time now would be carried
18 out for us and the documents could be disclosed going all the way to the
19 month of December. I believe that's what they said. That means in
20 principle that at the end of the year, we would have the Prosecution's
21 documents and would be in a position to study them and to answer them
22 within a time period covering about six months which might allow us to set
23 a date for the trial and to set that date today, if the Chamber agrees,
24 because today General Talic has been in prison now for 11 months and it
25 seems natural that in front of this Tribunal, as in front of any
1 jurisdiction, a detainee should be able to be tried within reasonable time
2 periods. And referring, for example, to the Strasbourg Court of Human
3 Rights, in respect of a reasonable time period, which might go over two
4 years for a detained person, I think that that is the case law which has
5 been accepted internationally and that this is a figure relating to rights
6 of people today.
7 Therefore, it is clear that we would like now, as quickly as
8 possible after having set the rules for disclosure with the Prosecution,
9 the disclosure of documents, I think that that was to a very large extent
10 settled this morning, we would like to be able to determine a date for the
11 trial within the time limits that are generally accepted.
12 Thank you very much, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Thank you very much. Mr. Pitron, do you want to add
15 MR. PITRON: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE HUNT: All right. Thank you very much.
17 Well, now, Ms. Korner, one thing that we did reserve for today
18 from the motion for disclosure of evidence was to fix a time limit under
19 Rule 66(A)(ii). So that's one thing we have to do. Are you able to give
20 us a date that you will be able to comply with that Rule?
21 MS. KORNER: In respect of all the documents --
22 JUDGE HUNT: Those are all -- 66(A)(ii), the statements of all the
23 witnesses, affidavits, formal statements, et cetera, of your witnesses.
24 MS. KORNER: The answer is I can't -- effectively I can't at this
25 stage say when that will be completed.
1 JUDGE HUNT: Well, is this going to be held up in some box
2 somewhere upstairs until you've got them all ready, or can they be sent
3 progressively so that counsel for the Defence can start reading them?
4 MS. KORNER: They're going to be sent progressively. Can I say
5 that the reason that further statements outside the sets disclosed for the
6 amended indictment haven't been is because we were waiting for the ruling
7 on protective measures. We do have other statements that we will be
8 disclosing within the very near future.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Now, if it's going to be a progressive one, I'm not
10 sure how I can formulate an order. But I think that there should be some
11 way in which the Tribunal can enforce it in case you start to fall
12 behind. How many have you got that you've got to disclose?
13 MS. KORNER: At the moment, I couldn't -- I couldn't really give
14 Your Honours a figure. We have been accumulating statements over the
15 period which, as I say, the only reason they haven't been disclosed so far
16 is because of the order.
17 Would Your Honour give me one moment.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
19 [Prosecution counsel confer]
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm told helpfully by my friends that
21 something in the region of 30 to 40 we will be disclosing in the very near
23 JUDGE HUNT: Well, let's fix a date for those. The end of
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, with the holiday season, and we have to
2 contact the various witnesses still to find out about their fears and
3 whatever, would Your Honours say the second week in September?
4 JUDGE HUNT: Who is on holiday?
5 MS. KORNER: The witnesses may be.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Well, they may be.
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour --
8 JUDGE HUNT: This was asked for by Mr. Talic in a motion filed on
9 the 5th of June, and on the 27th of June we said this can be dealt with at
10 the Status Conference on the 20th of July. I must say I would have
11 expected the Prosecution to be a little bit more ready to comply with it.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I say that one of the -- the
13 difficulties we've had. Your Honours have issued the ruling in the
14 protective measures some, what is it, two days -- the 3rd of July. Since
15 then, as Your Honours know, we've been chasing after the witnesses we have
16 already disclosed to establish what the situation is. We haven't had the
17 opportunity to chase after the witnesses that we haven't disclosed yet.
18 That's been the problem. As Your Honours saw and the Defence have seen,
19 we have a real manpower problem in the sense that the investigative team
20 is dealing with three cases, one of which is presently in trial.
21 JUDGE HUNT: Nevertheless, the teams are not one person. There
22 must be somebody who can start doing this work. We may not be in trial at
23 the moment but the Defence is entitled to know and to have them in good
24 time to start reading them. So I really feel that we've got to do a bit
25 better than just the second week of September. That's seven weeks away.
1 MS. KORNER: In that case, would Your Honours say -- I haven't got
2 a calendar on me at the moment but --
3 JUDGE HUNT: I was going to say the 31st of August.
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm not seeking to dissuade Your Honour
6 from that.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Does that mean that we'll only have 40 documents
8 served by the 31st of August?
9 MS. KORNER: No, it doesn't.
10 JUDGE HUNT: How many? I think we've got to know.
11 MS. KORNER: I can't tell Your Honours because it may be that
12 we'll be seeking protective measures in which case we'll have to file a
13 motion on Your Honours' ruling.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well that's a matter which we have to deal with
15 because you have asked for an extension of time.
16 MS. KORNER: I hope that I have understood this correctly. Your
17 Honours' ruling at present dealt with the witnesses disclosed but
18 redacted. Future witnesses, if we wish to obtain protective measures, we
19 will have to file a motion in respect of each witness.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well one would imagine one motion dealing with
21 a lot at a time, just as you do when you are bringing your witnesses along
22 for trial.
23 MS. KORNER: Yes.
24 JUDGE HUNT: It's not something which is new or extraordinary.
25 It's well-known in the procedures of the Tribunal, and it's been applied,
1 so far as I know, in every case.
2 MS. KORNER: Yes.
3 JUDGE HUNT: It was your move in redacting everything which seemed
4 to be new.
5 MS. KORNER: I thought we'd passed that one.
6 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry. You did ask for that, Ms. Korner.
7 MS. KORNER: Accepting that, Your Honour, we will serve -- sorry,
8 disclose such witnesses as we do not seek protective measures for in the
9 sense of withholding the name until a later date by the date Your Honour
10 has given, the 31st. How many that will be, I cannot say, but it will be
11 a reasonably substantial number. But I would ask that Your Honours don't
12 say that we have to serve -- disclose 30 statements by that date.
13 JUDGE HUNT: You do say in your request for an extension of time,
14 you don't understand whether redact includes a reference to the address.
15 MS. KORNER: Yes.
16 JUDGE HUNT: An unredacted document, the word "redact" is
17 reasonably unknown in the English language, but if you take it as meaning
18 obliterating something, then an unredacted document must be something in
19 which there are no obliterations.
20 MS. KORNER: Yes, well, that's the reason we raised it.
21 First of all, I want to be clear that we're not required by the
22 terms of Your Honours' order to give to the Defence the current addresses
23 of any witnesses who've happened to move.
24 JUDGE HUNT: No. You are required only to give the statements.
25 If you want to get a redaction of their address, which may be reasonable,
1 I think, for the Defence really to show why they needed it -- they may
2 need it, for example, because there's more than one person with that name
3 so there may have to be some better identification given -- but you have
4 to only give the statements at this stage.
5 MS. KORNER: Yes.
6 JUDGE HUNT: Whatever address is on them.
7 MS. KORNER: Yes.
8 JUDGE HUNT: If you want to get that redacted, then you should
9 apply for a redaction.
10 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, thank you, that does help.
11 Could I also ask whether Your Honours are granting --
12 JUDGE HUNT: I was going to ask whether there was any objection.
13 It was a week's extension, as I recall.
14 Is there any objection to the extension of time which the
15 Prosecution seeks of a week?
16 MR. ACKERMAN: No, Your Honour. As much as I've been waiting for
17 over a year, a week isn't going to make much difference to me.
18 JUDGE HUNT: That's what I would have hoped that you'd say,
19 Mr. Ackerman.
20 Mr. Pitron.
21 MR. PITRON: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to make
22 some comments in order to make things more clear because I think that
23 things are getting a bit confused. It seems that the Prosecutor is mixing
24 up several problems.
25 First, I would like to make a preliminary comment. General Talic
1 has been in prison for 11 months. I had dared to think, and I've been
2 daring to think for the past 11 months, that the Prosecution knew which
3 documents it was basing its accusations against my client on. I'm shocked
4 to see that even today, if I've understood correctly what's been said,
5 several weeks are still needed, if not several months, before the
6 Prosecution itself knows which documents it's basing its charges on.
7 These preliminary comments now having been made, I would like to
8 make three additional observations.
9 We have the first problem which has to do with disclosure of the
10 documents which the Prosecution has in order to support its charges.
11 Without wanting to break any confidentiality, we had a conversation with
12 Ms. Korner and Ms. Erasmus out of which I understood that the Prosecutor
13 was in a position to submit to us by the 4th of August three diskettes
14 which represent approximately 40 binders of documents which corresponded
15 to the essential things in these documents. The proposal was made in
16 writing by the Prosecutor and we agreed to it.
17 The Prosecutor has then told us that until the end of the year --
18 or at the end of the year, she would be in a position to have given us to
19 or disclose to us all of the documents that are going to support the
20 charges, and we agreed to that time period; although once again we needed
21 16 months for the Prosecution to give to us all the documents that it has
22 against our client since the beginning of this case.
23 In order to finish with this first comment, I would like to go
24 back to what Xavier De Roux said: We are in a position, since we know the
25 date that the Prosecutor is to disclose the evidence, to set the schedule
1 for the trial, and it seems to me that the date could be set for the trial
2 to begin.
3 We have a second point which is different, and that has to do with
4 confidentiality of the documents that have already been disclosed by the
5 Prosecution or which will be so disclosed.
6 On this point as well, the Prosecutor has written that she was
7 asking until the 31st of July in order to comply with the Tribunal's
8 decision, that is, to respect the complete adversarial system in respect
9 of these documents that are being disclosed, except for perhaps some. We
10 agreed to that date of the 31st of July. We are merely asking, but I
11 think that here, too, there was an agreement with the Prosecutor, we are
12 merely asking that this unconfidentiality [sic] be understood and extended
13 not only to those documents which have been disclosed by the Prosecutor
14 with the indictment, as has been mentioned in the Tribunal's orders, but
15 that making these documents not confidential should be extended to all of
16 the documents that are disclosed by the Prosecution, which appears to me
17 very logical.
18 Lastly, there is a final point, if I've understood the Prosecutor
19 correctly, she is asking -- as part of this making documents not
20 confidential, she wishes to keep back the witnesses' addresses. I do not
21 see in any of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence that that reservation is
22 provided for. There is merely a reservation having to do with the names
23 of the witnesses and that in exceptional cases the addresses as well.
24 Only in those exceptional cases, duly justified by the Prosecution to Your
25 Honours, would you be in a position, Your Honours, to agree to maintain
2 I thank you so much.
3 JUDGE HUNT: I think the confusion may be the way we've been
4 discussing it without reference to the orders that were made. The orders
5 which were made were that the Prosecution was, by the --
6 MS. KORNER: 24th of July.
7 JUDGE HUNT: -- yes, 24th of July, 4.00 p.m., to serve or to
8 produce all of the material, supporting material which accompanied the
9 indictment in its unredacted form unless there was a motion made within
10 that period for protective orders in relation to particular victims or
11 witnesses. It's that particular time limit, the 24th of July, that an
12 application has been made for an extension to the 31st of July.
13 Now, as I understand it, both accused have accepted that, so that
14 order is therefore made.
15 What we have been discussing apart from that are the documents
16 referred to in Rule 66(A)(ii) which deal with documents beyond the
17 supporting material, and they're described as the statements of all
18 witnesses whom the Prosecutor intends to call to testify at trial, or
19 affidavits or formal statements of those witnesses. Now, it's in relation
20 to those particular documents that we've been discussing more generally
21 the date, the 31st of August, and that is where, I think, perhaps,
22 Mr. Pitron, you have confused the matter.
23 Now, in relation to the order which Mr. Talic had sought in a
24 previous motion was to have a time limit set under that particular Rule.
25 Now, the way in which I think we can describe it is that all witness
1 statements for which there will be no application made for protective
2 orders will be supplied by the 31st of July.
3 MS. KORNER: August.
4 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry, August, yes. The 31st of August. I'm
6 The application in relation to those documents, when will you be
7 able to get that on? That's the application for protective measures.
8 MS. KORNER: In respect of witnesses to be served before the 31st
9 of August?
10 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
11 MS. KORNER: If we're seeking protective measures, we will have
12 the motion in the week before.
13 JUDGE HUNT: Well, by that date would do.
14 MS. KORNER: Or by that date, if Your Honour says by that date.
15 Your Honour, what Mr. Pitron, or what both Defence counsel for
16 General Talic asked for was complete disclosure of every witness that's
17 going to be called or every piece of documentation. Your Honour is not
18 ruling that.
19 JUDGE HUNT: No. They may get it, I don't know, but you have a
20 right to make an application for protective orders. If you succeed, then
21 they won't get it; if you don't succeed, they will get it.
22 MS. KORNER: No, but what they're going to -- may I make it -- can
23 I roll back, as it were, make it absolutely clear. We are following the
24 letter of the motion. Each witness has been contacted and been asked the
25 questions in respect of protective measures. If they are content or have
1 no good reason for asking for protective measures, then the Defence will
2 get the completely unredacted version of the statements.
3 What I'm concerned about is that Your Honour is not ruling --
4 isn't saying that for the purposes of trial, every witness on which the
5 Prosecution intends to rely at trial must be served by the 31st of August,
6 because that's what Defence counsel asked in that motion.
7 JUDGE HUNT: No, no.
8 MS. KORNER: Just the witness --
9 JUDGE HUNT: It means every statement, and I'll refer to them
10 generically as a statement, every statement within Rule 66(A)(ii) for
11 which you are not seeking protective measures must be served by the 31st
12 of August. In relation to those for which you do seek protective
13 measures, the motion must be filed by that date.
14 MS. KORNER: Yes. But, you see, if you look at Rule 66(A)(ii),
15 Your Honour, it says: "... copies of the statements of all witnesses whom
16 the Prosecutor intends to call to testify at trial."
17 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
18 MS. KORNER: Do you see the difficulty?
19 JUDGE HUNT: If you have that intention, you must serve them. If
20 you form an intention later to call other ones, then we will have to deal
21 with them when that intention is formed.
22 MS. KORNER: I think we better make this absolutely clear. We
23 have statements from certain witnesses, but other witnesses are still in
24 the process of being interviewed and statements taken.
25 JUDGE HUNT: Well, you haven't yet formed an intention to call
1 them at the trial; is that so?
2 MS. KORNER: Yes, that must be right.
3 JUDGE HUNT: If that's so, you don't have to disclose them at this
5 MS. KORNER: Right.
6 JUDGE HUNT: I think anybody who's had anything to do with any
7 criminal litigation would realise that these are ongoing preparations on
8 both sides.
9 MS. KORNER: Yes.
10 JUDGE HUNT: And that the Prosecution isn't obliged to have
11 everything in writing and all of its intentions formed at the time that it
12 issues or seeks to have the indictment confirmed.
13 MS. KORNER: Yes. Well, Your Honour, in that case we will comply
14 with Your Honours' order that --
15 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. But if you do form an intention to call others,
16 then we would expect you to notify the accused and to provide them with
17 the copies in accordance with that Rule as soon as you can.
18 MS. KORNER: Absolutely. That is our intention.
19 JUDGE HUNT: But at each Status Conference, you will be asked,
20 "Have you formed an intention to call any other witnesses," just as you
21 will be asked at every Status Conference whether there are any documents
22 within Rule 68 that you can disclose.
23 MS. KORNER: Yes.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Now, that, of course, is a matter which will no doubt
25 arise in relation to the latest motion we've had from Mr. Talic, the one
1 for which the English version was filed two days ago.
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that --
3 JUDGE HUNT: I don't expect you to discuss that here because you
4 haven't had an opportunity to put a response on but --
5 MS. KORNER: Can I say straight away, as I understand it, it's an
6 application to the Registry for confidential documents.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Is it?
8 MS. KORNER: Yes. It doesn't have anything to do with us, as I
9 read the English translation. I think they're asking Your Honours, as I
10 read it, and I'm sure that Mr. Pitron will tell me if I'm wrong, they're
11 asking Your Honours to order the Registry to disclose documentation
12 relating to previous trials at this Tribunal.
13 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Just one moment. I've got it here. The Defence has
15 requested the Registry, and I would think that the Registry would have to
16 seek your views before anything was done. The Registry is going to say
17 there's an order that these documents be kept confidential, and there will
18 be no way in which the Registrar can disclose them without an order from
19 the Trial Chamber.
20 MS. KORNER: Exactly.
21 JUDGE HUNT: On which I would think the Prosecution would have to
22 state its views.
23 MS. KORNER: I'll consider the matter.
24 JUDGE HUNT: That's why I say it's really rather pointless trying
25 to discuss it here when we both only just got the document.
1 Now, Mr. Pitron, you wanted to say something about that.
2 MR. PITRON: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Perhaps two
3 comments in order to make things clearer.
4 The first comment has to do with the last request of ours, if
5 we're speaking about the same thing, that is, the request in which we are
6 asking the Registry to give to us certain documents which were used in
7 four cases that the Tribunal has already heard or which are being heard at
8 this Tribunal. We also asked the Registry to provide to us all documents
9 that are public as well as several which are confidential. We asked the
10 Tribunal to authorise us to have access to those confidential documents.
11 It seems to me that this falls within the jurisdiction of this
12 Trial Chamber, and I have difficulty seeing how the Prosecutor, who had
13 access to those documents because it was part of the trials and can use
14 them in its case, I don't see how the Prosecutor could object to those
15 confidential documents being transmitted to the Defence of General Talic.
16 It's being understood that we will respect the fact that these
17 documents are confidential, and we commit ourselves to doing so.
18 JUDGE HUNT: You may be right. I really don't want to have this
19 particular motion debated here. I think the problem that arose was
20 whether it was going to come before the Trial Chamber at all. I agree
21 with you, it would be within the jurisdiction of this Trial Chamber to
22 determine anything which relates to this Trial Chamber.
23 The two matters before Trial Chamber III, there may have to be an
24 application made to Trial Chamber III. I don't decide that one way or the
25 other. But it may be that we have no jurisdiction to vary a ruling made
1 by that Trial Chamber that documents are to be kept as confidential
3 Let's worry about that one when the Prosecution has had an
4 opportunity to consider it and to put a response on, and we will certainly
5 invite the Registrar to put a response on as well so that we have the
6 matter firmly in our view.
7 Mr. Ackerman is rising, I think, to ask whether he can have access
8 to them as well. Is that what you're rising for you, Mr. Ackerman?
9 MR. ACKERMAN: No, Your Honour, it's not.
10 JUDGE HUNT: Well, can we deal with one thing at a time.
11 MR. ACKERMAN: I assumed that we had concluded this issue about
12 these documents.
13 JUDGE HUNT: No, I'm sorry, we have not.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: As soon as we do that, I will then ...
15 JUDGE HUNT: I'm sorry.
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, can I go back to a matter?
17 JUDGE HUNT: Can I say we should leave that motion, the most
18 recent motion, to take its ordinary course.
19 MS. KORNER: Yes.
20 JUDGE HUNT: But I would expect the Prosecution will be asked to
21 put on a response, and that's why -- I think we've at least cleared that
22 much up.
23 MS. KORNER: Yes.
24 JUDGE HUNT: And we will invite the Registrar also, under the
25 Rules, to put on a response as well.
1 MS. KORNER: Yes.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Now, Mr. Pitron, is there anything more you want to
3 say about what we are dealing with, or are you still talking about this
4 new motion?
5 MR. PITRON: [Interpretation] No, I'm staying within the scope of
6 this discussion. I'm answering Ms. Korner who just asked what it is we
7 had agreed about this morning. So I come back to you with this very
8 important question, at least I feel it's very important, that is, the
9 disclosure of documents of the Prosecution. That's what I'm talking
11 If I've understood you correctly, Your Honour, you said to us that
12 Ms. Korner is going to disclose to us by the 31st of August those
13 documents that she has. If in the future she has other documents, she
14 will disclose them in the future. At the next Status Conference, you will
15 ask her whether she has any other documents and you will evaluate what new
16 time periods are required for the latest requests for disclosure of
17 documents that she may present at that time.
18 I would like, with all due respect to you, to draw your attention
19 to the fact that this means for me that the Prosecution still has an
20 unlimited time for disclosing in a progressive way those documents which
21 make my client's detention a reality for the past 11 months. With all
22 respect, I ask the Tribunal to, once and for all, set a time limit for the
23 Prosecution for all of the documents to be disclosed to me which are the
24 basis for the accusations, knowing that at 2.00, the Prosecutor will say
25 that the end of December 2000 seems to her to be a proper date for this
1 matter and that we agreed to that.
2 Thank you very much.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Well, Ms. Korner, there are two things which
4 Mr. Pitron has referred to that I wanted to ask you.
5 First, what is this that you are disclosing by the 4th of August,
6 the three diskettes?
7 MS. KORNER: Yes. I've been trying rather desperately to get to
8 that part.
9 What happened is that we had an application originally from
10 Mr. Ackerman on behalf of Brdjanin for all the documents that were seized
11 from the Banja Luka municipality. We wrote to Defence counsel for General
12 Talic saying that we were going to accede to that request made under Rule
13 66(B), that they wish to make the same request, and they did.
14 The documents have been burnt, if that's the correct expression,
15 onto CDs and the intention was to disclose today, to both sets of Defence
16 counsel, those CDs. Regrettably, something technically arose late
17 yesterday which means that they will have to be redone but they will be
18 available, and we have undertaken that they will be given to the Defence
19 by the 4th of August.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Now --
21 MS. KORNER: Can I --
22 JUDGE HUNT: Can I just clear something up so we can get all the
23 orders straight. Those documents have been disclosed under Rule 68 or
24 merely under 66(A)(ii).
25 MS. KORNER: Under 66(B). The Defence made a request for
2 JUDGE HUNT: All right.
3 MS. KORNER: In effect, what they're getting is, with one
4 exception, the totality of the documents seized from the Banja Luka
5 municipality which include, and that is of the greatest interest to
6 Mr. Pitron and Mr. De Roux, the documents taken from the headquarters of
7 the 1st Krajina Corps of which General Talic was the commanding officer
8 during the relevant period.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Now, they will be supplied by the 4th of
11 MS. KORNER: They will be supplied by the 4th of August.
12 JUDGE HUNT: Now, what is it -- I'm sorry, yes. Something more
13 you want to add to that?
14 MS. KORNER: That will provide the Defence with the bulk of the
15 documents, all of them, that is to say, those that the Prosecution intends
16 to use to prove the case and those which fall possibly under the auspices
17 of Rule 68.
18 JUDGE HUNT: I think that we better get that cleared up. Are you
19 supplying all the documents that were seized from the Banja Luka
21 MS. KORNER: With one exception; those taken from what's called
22 the CSB, the police station. Those, we will continue, for the moment --
23 it may well be at a later stage we'll be able to provide those on CD as
24 well, but those for the moment will be disclosed under the normal
25 procedures, i.e., under Rule 66, although it only talks about statements,
1 and Rule 68.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Were they part of the request?
3 MS. KORNER: We were just asked to supply the Banja Luka municipal
5 JUDGE HUNT: Is that where the CSB is?
6 MS. KORNER: No. It's a separate area.
7 JUDGE HUNT: Well, then, we'll have a formal order drawn up later
8 on. But we will make an order that you supply on CDs copies of the
9 documents seized from the Banja Luka municipality, 1st Krajina Corps, by
10 the 4th of August, pursuant to Rule 66(B).
11 MS. KORNER: Yes. It's a request which we're complying with. I
12 don't think it needs an order from Your Honours but --
13 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I think it might be preferable that we made
15 MS. KORNER: All right. I see that Mr. De Roux is on his feet.
16 Can I just finish for one moment? And Mr. Ackerman. Can I just finish?
17 JUDGE HUNT: We'll come to you in a moment.
18 MS. KORNER: In respect of the CDs, we are asking Your Honour to
19 make an order that these be returned to the Prosecution at the conclusion
20 of the proceedings against the two defendants. It is not in the same
21 category as the materials we discussed on the last occasion, because
22 clearly anything that the Defence wishes to use it will print out from the
23 CDs. These documents seized eventually will have to be returned to the
24 municipality. They were seized on an order from this Tribunal.
25 JUDGE HUNT: But as I understand it, what you are providing are
1 copies of those documents on CDs.
2 MS. KORNER: In electronic format.
3 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
4 MS. KORNER: It's the electronic format we wish to have returned,
5 and I don't think -- I've spoken to both Mr. Ackerman and Mr. Pitron about
6 that, there is no objection to that order. But Your Honour can confirm
8 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if it's by consent, there can be no trouble.
9 Now, Mr. De Roux, who was on his feet first. Yes.
10 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to add a
11 clarification because there would be an order. The letter of the
12 Prosecutor from the 28th of June states clearly that the documents, which
13 will be disclosed to us, are those that were seized in 1998. We have just
14 said this, that it was in the municipality of Banja Luka, but they were
15 also at a radio station in Banja Luka, at the offices of the SDS party,
16 and at the 1st Army Corps. These are the seizures that were made in four
17 different locations, and those are the documents that are suggested are
18 being disclosed to us in electronic form.
19 JUDGE HUNT: Well, if we're going to have this sort of dispute,
20 I'm going to leave it to the parties to sort out. I'm not going to try
21 and resolve this. Either you go into the witness box, either of you, and
22 give us evidence under oath -- just a moment, please, Mr. Ackerman -- or
23 you sort it out between yours. If you can't, then there will have to be a
24 specific application made about that.
25 MS. KORNER: I don't think we need to trouble Your Honours. It is
1 not a matter that Your Honours need to make a ruling on. It's an
2 application under Rule 66(B) which we have acceded to. The only problem
3 has been a technical one.
4 JUDGE HUNT: It's just that there is a disagreement between you as
5 to what you're going to produce. You've said you are not producing, at
6 this stage, the documents seized from the police and CSB.
7 MS. KORNER: There is no dispute, that's right.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Yes.
9 MS. KORNER: They're getting --
10 JUDGE HUNT: Sorry, but Mr. De Roux is expecting not only the
11 documents seized from the Banja Luka municipality but also those from the
12 CSB, from the radio station, and from the SDS party. Now, I just don't
13 want to have to worry about that here. If you can't work it out between
14 yourselves, then you'll have to put an application on and we'll deal with
15 it. I would hope that common sense will dictate, that it will be resolved
16 between you, and I'm not going to have it done here in court.
17 MS. KORNER: I appreciate that. Can I say there is no dispute.
18 Mr. De Roux has written and he knows it's not the CSB because we discussed
19 it. I think there's a confusion.
20 JUDGE HUNT: Now, the other question I have to ask you which has
21 been raised by Mr. Pitron was something that was going to be supplied by
22 the end of the year. Now, what is it that you say is going to be supplied
23 by the end of the year?
24 MS. KORNER: No. May I say I have some difficulties with what was
25 discussed in the private meeting and raised in open court.
1 JUDGE HUNT: If it doesn't relate to the documents that are in
2 issue here under 66(A) --
3 MS. KORNER: It does not relate to the statements. The request
4 that was raised this morning that's been raised is this: We were asked
5 when is it that you can disclose all the documents on which you rely
6 against General Talic? I explained to Defence counsel -- Mr. Ackerman
7 regrettably couldn't be there, I hope to have had a general meeting but he
8 couldn't -- that as was explained to a court yesterday, that because of
9 the huge quantities of documents in this institution, to comply with our
10 obligations, particularly under Rule 68(A), a huge search project was
11 going on, and that it would take until November to be completed and
12 therefore we could not say that we would be in a position to satisfy our
13 obligations before Christmas.
14 JUDGE HUNT: But are we perfectly clear that you will be complying
15 with your obligations under 66(A)(ii) by the 31st of August, or in
16 relation to those you seek protective measures for, you will have a motion
17 on by the 31st of August?
18 MS. KORNER: Yes, provided that Your Honour is not reading Rule
19 66(A)(ii) as saying that anybody that we wish to call at trial --
20 JUDGE HUNT: No, no, look, the Rule is very clear.
21 MS. KORNER: It is.
22 JUDGE HUNT: Whom the Prosecutor intends to call to testify at
23 trial. Now, if there is no present intention, you have no obligation to
24 disclose it unless it falls within, say, 68. So let us not worry about
25 interpretations. It's very clear.
1 MS. KORNER: Yes.
2 JUDGE HUNT: But I will repeat: The Trial Chamber would expect
3 you, the Prosecution, to reveal any intention that you do form when you
4 form it and produce the documents.
5 MS. KORNER: Yes.
6 JUDGE HUNT: And I don't want that to have to wait until each
7 Status Conference.
8 MS. KORNER: No.
9 JUDGE HUNT: My reference to you being asked at a Status
10 Conference is that usually there is a question asked by Rule 66 and 68 at
11 each Status Conference.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we have that perfectly in mind. We will
13 be disclosing, as soon as we form the intention, to call a witness.
14 JUDGE HUNT: Right.
15 Now, Mr. Ackerman, you've been trying very hard to say something.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I started this whole mess and so I'd
17 like to explain to the Chamber what I was attempting to do.
18 What I was trying to do with my communications with Ms. Korner
19 regarding documents was to avoid getting the Trial Chamber involved in
20 this piecemeal process of discovery as we went along, thinking that we
21 could probably accomplish it between Ms. Korner and I, without bothering
22 the Trial Chamber about it, and I still believe that's the case.
23 My view of the issue that's come up this morning is this: If
24 Ms. Korner tells me that there are, her word, "millions of documents in
25 the Tribunal in their office," and they don't know, at this point, which
1 of them may be relevant to this case and which of them may be exculpatory
2 with regard to this case and that there is this search that's going on
3 that she tells me, and told you now, may take until the end of November.
4 I am unwilling, at this point, to ask the Trial Chamber to place any kind
5 of deadline upon the Prosecution with regard to that process, because it's
6 important to me that they not hurry through that process and therefore
7 miss something that could be exculpatory to my client and that they would
8 have to disclose to me. So I'm very comfortable with having the
9 Prosecutor proceed at their pace regarding going through these documents
10 and being very careful about it and disclosing to us, progressively, in
11 piecemeal, as they go along what they find.
12 Now, if that process can end by the end of December, so be it. If
13 it cannot end until the end of January, so be it. There's a point, I
14 suppose, when the Chamber would want to impose an absolute deadline upon
15 that process, but I think we can accept in the good faith representation
16 of Ms. Korner that it appears to her that that can end around December.
17 Also, based upon those representations, there is no way that any
18 of us can tell you at this point what the quantity of documents that will
19 result from that search process are going to be. That, therefore, makes
20 it very difficult to say, if we get these documents at the end of
21 December, we will be ready to go to trial on such and such a date, because
22 whether I'm ready to go to trial or not depends on how long it will take
23 me to go through those.
24 JUDGE HUNT: Let me say here and now we are not going to fix a
25 date for the trial. There is another trial to be disposed of by Trial
1 Chamber II before we reach this one, and it may be that another Trial
2 Chamber will become free and it will take this one in its place. But
3 until the matter is ready for trial, there will be no trial dates fixed.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: That's all I had to say. I intend, unless I'm told
5 by the Trial Chamber, at least on behalf of Mr. Brdjanin, to continue
6 trying to accomplish these discovery matters on an informal basis with
7 Ms. Korner rather than troubling the Trial Chamber.
8 JUDGE HUNT: Well I would hope so too. I would hope that both
9 defendants will proceed upon that basis and that each camp, as it were,
10 will read the material as it comes rather than waiting until it's all
11 there and then say we need five months or six months to read it.
12 Yes, Ms. Korner.
13 MS. KORNER: Can I confirm that you've made an order of the return
14 of the CDs at the end of the case.
15 JUDGE HUNT: Well, I'm not going to make orders about that because
16 we will make one when you have agreed as to what's going to be produced.
17 MS. KORNER: But even though, Your Honour, can I tell Your Honour
18 there is no disagreement but it is important that before -- because Your
19 Honours might be seized of the matter on the 4th of August -- before we
20 hand it over, that there really isn't any doubt that the CDs must come
22 JUDGE HUNT: Yes. Well, it's only because it's by consent. If
23 it's not the original documents, I'm not quite sure what the problem is,
24 because they could make a copy of the CD. Is it because of the cost of
25 the CDs you're worried about, the four CDs?
1 MS. KORNER: It's not the cost. We would hope -- Your Honour said
2 that they would copy the CDs. I would hope they wouldn't do that.
3 JUDGE HUNT: You said that they could print out the documents from
4 it what we're concerned about it.
5 MS. KORNER: That's not the same. What we're concerned about,
6 Your Honour, I would hope Your Honour is aware as well, is that there
7 aren't CDs containing documents floating around the place, because they're
8 not documents that belong to this Tribunal that, if you like, are
9 [inaudible] on them while the case go on. But they belong to the
10 municipality and the various other people.
11 JUDGE HUNT: The CDs do.
12 MS. KORNER: The CDs belong to us, the Office of the Prosecutor.
13 We are giving the Defence those CDs, enabling them to print documents off,
14 but we would like an order that the CDs be returned to the Office of the
15 Prosecutor at the conclusion of these proceedings.
16 JUDGE HUNT: Are they your only copy?
17 MS. KORNER: No.
18 JUDGE HUNT: Well, as I say, it's by consent. But otherwise, I
19 must say, Ms. Korner, I wouldn't have made the order because this is going
20 back to this argument we had on the protective measures as to who owns the
21 documents handed to the Defence.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, these are not documents. These are an
23 electronic means of getting access to the documents --
24 JUDGE HUNT: It will be no different than having photographs,
25 would it?
1 MS. KORNER: Yes, it would.
2 JUDGE HUNT: Well, as I say, it's by consent. So an order will be
3 made that any CDs by which copies of documents have been supplied to the
4 Defence must be returned at the end of the trial.
5 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
6 JUDGE HUNT: But it is also understood by everybody that copies of
7 the documents encrypted on the CDs may be made and kept.
8 MS. KORNER: Yes.
9 JUDGE HUNT: Is there anything else? Then I'm very grateful to
10 counsel for their assistance, and the matter is adjourned.
11 --- Whereupon the Status Conference adjourned
12 at 12.25 p.m.