Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1379

1 Monday, 4 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: You may sit down. Thank you.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you call the case, please. Thank you.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is case number

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So good morning, everybody, and we start with the

10 usual routine. Is there anything wrong, Mr. Brdjanin?

11 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

12 Everything is fine.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I did not have a translation.

14 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

15 Everything is fine.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Is everything okay?

17 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning. Everything

18 is fine, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And you are understanding me, I presume, in a

20 language you understand?

21 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] I can hear you and I

22 understand you. Thank you.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: And General Talic, can you hear me in a language you

24 can understand?

25 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Good

Page 1380

1 morning. I can hear you and I understand you.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances. Prosecution.

3 MR. CAYLEY: Good morning, Mr. President and Your Honours. My

4 name is Cayley. I appear on behalf of the Prosecutor. If I can introduce

5 you this morning to Nicholas Koumjian who will be leading the next

6 witness, and our case manager today is Ms. Ruth Karper.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Welcome. Appearances for the Defence of

8 Mr. Brdjanin.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.

10 I'm here with my co-counsel Milka Maglov and legal assistant Tania

11 Radosavljevic.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for General Talic.

13 MR. De ROUX: [Interpretation] Mr. de Roux, I'm assisted by

14 Natasha Fauveau and Fabien Masson.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. de Roux, last week, as you already know, we

16 did not have the pleasure of your presence and that of your co-counsel

17 Mr. Pitron. It is unfortunate that this Chamber was not given an

18 explanation for your absence, something that we would have expected as a

19 matter of courtesy, apart from the fact that we all agree here that you

20 owe an explanation in any case. The same applies to Mr. Pitron, of

21 course. But what is of more concern to this Trial Chamber is that when it

22 sought the -- not exactly the consent but the advice of your client to see

23 what was his reaction to the fact that his lead counsel and co-counsel

24 were not present in the courtroom, he informed the Trial Chamber that he

25 himself had not been made aware of the reasons for your absence.

Page 1381

1 This Trial Chamber has no doubt that you had a very valid reason,

2 both of you, for being absent from this Chamber, but also you have

3 responsibilities under the brief that you have been trusted with by this

4 Tribunal, and I would suppose that you have some sort of explanation to

5 give to this Trial Chamber now.

6 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm going to ask the

7 Trial Chamber to accept my apologies for this incident, but I would like

8 to remind you that first of all, I personally was kept in Paris for a

9 certain number of medical check-ups, which will happen again. Mr. Pitron

10 was kept at the Court in Aix-en-Provence. He was involved in a very

11 important case which relates to something that exploded, and this had been

12 set a long time ago, and, obviously, he was not able to avoid this.

13 But I would like to say the Defence wasn't absent since

14 Ms. Fauveau was present for the Defence. Natasha Fauveau -- Ms. Natasha

15 Fauveau is well acquainted with the situation. She knows the case very

16 well, and I would say that she knows it in greatest detail, because first

17 of all, she has been working full time on it for over two years now; and

18 secondly, she sees this case not only in its translated versions but in

19 the original, in her original language, because she speaks this language

20 fluently, Serbo-Croat. It's her mother tongue. So she can read the

21 dossiers, the cases in the originals, and pay attention to all the

22 details.

23 I think that Defence counsel was present and present in a very

24 efficient manner for General Talic during the hearings of last week. And

25 I don't think that the Defence counsel has failed in any way.

Page 1382

1 Now, I would like to remind you that I was first appointed by

2 General Talic. I defended him until July, until last July and I was

3 assigned by the Tribunal. I intend to provide the best possible defence

4 to General Talic within the limits of the budget that the Tribunal has

5 allocated to me, and I really think that Defence has not failed for

6 General Talic.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. de Roux, the abilities and capacities of your

8 colleague, Ms. Fauveau, in defending General Talic are not in dispute.

9 What is in dispute is her role as one of General Talic's official counsel

10 here. She is not on record one of his counsel. You are the lead counsel

11 that has been assigned by this Tribunal, and Mr. Pitron is your

12 co-counsel. And that is the situation.

13 General Talic may stand up at any given moment and protest to this

14 Trial Chamber that he is not represented by the counsel that have been

15 assigned to him, irrespective of how much your assistant Ms. Fauveau is

16 capable of defending him. That was not ever in question. It was made

17 very clear to General Talic during last week. And this Trial Chamber

18 commended all the efforts that were made by Ms. Fauveau in defending your

19 client. She did excellently, given the circumstances. But still this

20 Trial Chamber is making it very clear, you have responsibilities according

21 to the brief that has been given to you by this Tribunal, and it is the

22 responsibility also of this Trial Chamber to see to it that General Talic

23 is defended in accordance with what has been provided as defence

24 facilities for him by this Tribunal. And that, I suppose, brings the

25 matter to an end. I demand that in future, whatever the cause you say -

Page 1383

1 and I have no reason to doubt it that you had a personal medical reason

2 which kept you away from this Trial Chamber last week. The thing is it

3 could happen to everyone - but a simple note or a simple communication via

4 the Registry to this Trial Chamber would have made things easier and we

5 would have appreciated as a sign of courtesy, something I insisted upon on

6 the very first day of this trial.

7 Thank you. You may sit down now.

8 So before we start with the first witness, are there any

9 preliminaries that -- or house management procedural matters that you

10 would like to raise?

11 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cayley.

13 MR. CAYLEY: In respect of the collection of documents which is

14 called the Banja Luka collection, which is the first four binders that

15 Your Honours have, in accordance with what was stated last week, my

16 colleagues from the Defence, Mr. Ackerman, Ms. Fauveau, have provided to

17 the Prosecution a List of Documents which are in dispute, which are

18 objected to.

19 Mr. Mazhar Inayat, the police officer who if you'll recall last

20 week gave evidence in respect of the origin of documents in the Donia

21 collection is waiting outside to give evidence in respect of these

22 documents. But I've made a suggestion to Mr. Ackerman and Ms. Fauveau

23 that perhaps a more efficient way of dealing with this is if it is dealt

24 with at the Status Conference on Wednesday, because we are simply

25 addressing the question of whether these documents are admissible into

Page 1384

1 evidence, the first question, and the test that Your Honour laid down last

2 week, which is for -- essentially for the Prosecution to identify the

3 origin of the document. Now, we can call in Mr. Inayat to do that in

4 respect of 70 or 80 documents, but we're going to be here most of the

5 morning doing that, so we can either deal with it at the Status Conference

6 on Wednesday, in front of Mr. Von Heble, and he can report to the Trial

7 Chamber and then you can be satisfied yourselves on the origin of the

8 documents. Or we can simply provide Your Honours with a list of the

9 documents, identify on that list those that the Defence object to, you can

10 see in our explanation column where the documents come from, and then you

11 can decide whether or not there is sufficient provenance to accept that

12 they are admissible. That does not in any way affect, obviously, the

13 objections that Mr. Ackerman or Ms. Fauveau have to these documents. It

14 is simply a question of immediate admission into evidence.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, what is your reaction to Mr. Cayley's

16 practical suggestion?

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, it --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, which one would you prefer to start

19 with?

20 MR. ACKERMAN: I think maybe there's even an easier way. We

21 have -- I think the Trial Chamber may not have it -- I think maybe you do

22 have it -- a list of these Banja Luka documents that has on it the

23 identification of the source of the document.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I have it.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Which was the sole purpose of the testimony of

Page 1385

1 Mr. Inayat last week, to tell us what that source was. We now have that

2 on the documents, so there's, in my mind, no need for Mr. Inayat to sit

3 here and tell what you say the document says. We can read it ourselves

4 much quicker than he can talk about it.

5 We have objected to the authenticity of a fairly small number of

6 the documents, when looking at the total amount, of documents as we did

7 before that do not have a stamp and a signature and on occasion for some

8 other reasons we're concerned about the source of some of the documents,

9 even though there is a -- an identified source. We're not convinced that

10 that source is reliable. For instance, documents that come from those

11 sources that are adversaries to our clients, may not be totally reliable

12 sources, so we're concerned about that.

13 It seems to me that now that you have been given in writing all

14 the information that Mr. Inayat would have given you had he testified,

15 that all that's left to be done is for you to look at the documents that

16 we are suggesting should not be admitted because of their lack of

17 authenticity and make the same kind of decision that you made last week

18 with regard to them, whether or not you will allow them to come before you

19 in spite of our authenticity objections. That will save both talking

20 about them at the Status Conference and all of us sitting here listening

21 to Mr. Inayat.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: It would still -- it would still require, according

23 to me, the presence of Mr. Inayat to at least confirm the correctness and

24 completeness of the document itself. In other words, that we would still

25 insist upon and -- even for the tranquility of our minds, if it is a

Page 1386

1 document which purports to shed information on the possible source and

2 also reliability and authenticity of documents, at least he should confirm

3 the totality and the completeness of the basic list, basic document.

4 And I would suppose you would agree to that, Mr. Cayley?

5 MR. CAYLEY: Of course, Mr. President. I mean, my understanding

6 from the previous practice is that as far as admission is concerned, all

7 Your Honours require is some offering by the Prosecution on where this

8 document actually comes from.

9 The question of authenticity, which is linked to the probative

10 value of the document, is of course a matter that you will consider

11 further in your deliberations.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: But the thing, before I give the floor to

13 Mr. de Roux, now, having put our cards on the table last week, and I did

14 what I did precisely on purpose, to show you how it would go if we chose

15 one way and once chosen that way what other possible ways were open to us,

16 which would definitely have saved us a lot of time and which would have

17 been much more practical than the one we opted for.

18 As it is, the end result of that experiment is that we now have

19 adopted a system whereby we have a list of all the documents together with

20 the description of the source, which has already prompted, at least from

21 the Defence of Mr. Brdjanin, a response indicating which documents are

22 objected to.

23 I will now ask Mr. de Roux, obviously, to see what is the reaction

24 of the Defence for General Talic. If it is more or less the same, then

25 the part open to us is very simple. With regard to the documents that are

Page 1387

1 not being contested, the confirmation upon a solemn declaration by

2 Mr. Inayat en bloc of all those documents would be sufficient, and he

3 doesn't have to go, as he did last week, through each and every one of

4 these documents and say this was -- he would be confirming the totality of

5 those documents en bloc.

6 As far as the others are concerned, then he would also be asked to

7 confirm what is indicated in the basic document with the basic right of

8 the Defence to put to Mr. Inayat any questions relating to that particular

9 source or relating to that particular document, directed questions that

10 are solely directed towards establishing on a prime facie basis and

11 initially whether there is a sufficient indicia of reliability on which

12 this Tribunal, this Trial Chamber, can move ahead.

13 So I think on this understanding, I can now ask Mr. de Roux for

14 his comments.

15 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I agree completely

16 with what my colleague Ackerman said, and I think -- and I understand the

17 Court's reasons. I think there are two problems concerning the

18 documents. First of all, there are documents which haven't been signed,

19 which haven't been authenticated by General Talic, which might bear his

20 name, his typewritten name, but his signature isn't there. Then there are

21 documents, the source of which could, in the Defence's view, be a priori

22 suspect. These were the documents which were provided afterwards by the

23 authorities in Sarajevo. We are perfectly well aware how in a conflict of

24 this nature information or disinformation could be disseminated. So the

25 documents that come from adverse sources are obviously documents for us

Page 1388

1 which are not reliable, not very reliable.

2 As far as the block of documents for which there is no discussion,

3 I totally understand the Court's reason, and I don't see any reason for

4 not admitting them en bloc.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: But still the whole point is this: that in order for

6 this exercise to have sense and provide us with at least a terrain on

7 which we can move with relative ease and smoothly and expeditiously, the

8 Prosecution and more so -- even more so this Trial Chamber would require

9 from both of you - I understand Mr. Ackerman has already done this - a

10 clear indication as to which documents are being contested. If you leave

11 it open, as you did last week, saying, "All documents which do not bear

12 the signature of my client or which are purported to be his" -- at the end

13 of the day what happened last week was that there were some of these

14 documents which a priori had been excluded by you as being obviously not

15 authentic and non-reliable and which, in the course of the pleadings and

16 in the course of the evidence, had that objection withdrawn.

17 I mean -- so what I would recommend is, first, that this matter,

18 if you are in agreement, will be brought up, dealt with in Wednesday's

19 Status Conference. That is my suggestion which I take from what

20 Mr. Cayley has himself suggested.

21 And I will stop here for a moment and ask both Defence teams if

22 you are agreeable to this.

23 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, if I could just interrupt you for a

24 moment. In fact, the Defence counsel for General Talic have provided us

25 with a list.

Page 1389

1 JUDGE AGIUS: You have it already.

2 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. de Roux has been very helpful indeed on this

3 matter. So --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: My apologies if I -- I was not informed of that. So

5 whatever I said is retracted, and we can move ahead from there.

6 Would Wednesday's Status Conference be, according to you, the

7 ideal forum where this matter will be threshed. I'm using a very

8 colloquial term, but it will be discussed, debated between you, in the

9 presence of the Senior Legal Officer.

10 Mr. Ackerman?

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, that would be fine. Two things. The Trial

12 Chamber should know that the counsel for General Talic and I worked

13 together through these documents so that we would have a joint document to

14 provide the Prosecutor.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: That's very good.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: The second thing is that, yes, we can handle this

17 Wednesday in the Status Conference. I'm wondering if -- the Chamber has

18 indicated, in any event, they wanted to hear some testimony from

19 Mr. Inayat. I'm wondering how you might want that to occur and when we

20 might do that. Beyond that, I'm agreeable with doing it that way.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, to put it to you very simply, we will

22 go through the list ourselves, particularly addressing our attention to

23 the documents that have been objected. Initially, I wouldn't expect us to

24 waste much time going through the other documents if they are not objected

25 to because eventually these will be the subject of our attention later on

Page 1390

1 in due course when it's needed.

2 We will have a close look, on a prima facie basis, at these

3 documents, take stock of the substance of your objection - and when I say

4 "your," it's also of General Talic's defence - see the nature of the

5 indication of the information that is forthcoming from the face of the

6 document itself and from Mr. Inayat's list.

7 If it's the case of addressing some questions to Mr. Inayat, then

8 of course this Tribunal will work in that direction. If it's not, we'll

9 leave it at that. I mean, I will ask Mr. Inayat to confirm the list en

10 bloc, and of course reserving to you, both Defence teams, the right to

11 cross-examine him on any documents that you deem necessary. I mean, this

12 option is -- not option, this is a right which will never -- you will

13 never be deprived of. So you may rest assured that Mr. Inayat would still

14 be required to come here, honour us with his presence and give some

15 evidence with the understanding that from -- I don't know what the

16 Prosecution will do, but from the Trial Chamber's point of view, there

17 will be very little questions asked, if any, but you will always have the

18 right to cross-examine Mr. Inayat on any documents that you are objecting

19 to or disputing.

20 Mr. de Roux.

21 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] That's fine, Mr. President. I think

22 that this is a matter of proceeding, which is all right. I agree with

23 it.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose it's all right with you as well,

25 Mr. Cayley.

Page 1391












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1392

1 MR. CAYLEY: It's perfect, Mr. President. In a sense, from what

2 you've said, I don't know whether there is any purpose in dealing with it

3 at the Status Conference, because Mr. Inayat will have to give evidence

4 for the reasons that you have already stated, so -- but I think that can

5 be done later in the week, because this next witness is not going to be --

6 my understanding he's not going to be referring to any documents which are

7 in that particular collection.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: That actually was going to be my first question to

9 you this morning after I asked whether there were any preliminaries. Over

10 the weekend, I read all the statements made by this witness that had been

11 made available to me, and particularly with the most recent of these

12 statements, the ones that refer to the interviews that took place between

13 the 26th and the 29th of August, but also in previous statements. There

14 is an almost continuous reference to some basic documents. They have

15 your, I would say, ERN number or your -- I don't know. They have a

16 reference number, which for this Trial Chamber, over the weekend with the

17 basic documents being here and not in our respective residences, is very

18 difficult to follow. So perhaps you could enlighten us on this issue.

19 Which documents are these, whether they have already been admitted in

20 evidence on the legal basis explained to you earlier on this week, or

21 whether these are documents which will be exhibited by the witness himself

22 and which, therefore, will need to be admitted in evidence.

23 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I'll let Mr. Koumjian explain with

24 precision since it's his witness, but my understanding is that these are

25 documents that the witness himself will exhibit in the proceedings, but

Page 1393

1 I'll let Mr. Koumjian speak to you on this.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose before I give your colleague the floor

3 that they have been disclosed.

4 MR. CAYLEY: They have been, Mr. President, yes.


6 MR. CAYLEY: I will find out the date for you, but they will have

7 been disclosed with the witness statements. But I will get a date on that

8 for you if you wish.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: So, yes, you have the floor. Thank you. Put the

10 microphone on, please. I think it's off.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, the documents

12 I planned to use in the direct examination, which is a very small amount

13 of the documents referred to in the statements, I believe most of those

14 were documents either obtained directly from Mr. Krzic, the witness, or

15 documents which he will testify to having either written or seen or faxed

16 himself, because some of these were faxed to the Bosnian embassy in

17 Washington or the Bosnian mission at the United Nations in New York.

18 There are, though, a couple of other documents I see on the list

19 that I planned to use during the direct examination, two of those, and

20 those would be disclosure numbers -- I do have the disclosure numbers for

21 those. That's 4.1237 and 4.2139. They were part of the Banja Luka

22 collection. I believe these were taken from the -- they're reports

23 written from the security section. And the another document is a

24 newspaper article which was disclosed under document 5.25.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, are these documents -- and

Page 1394

1 Mr. de Roux, are these documents in your possession and readily

2 available?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, after a great deal of effort, yes, we

4 were able to find the documents. The problem was that the list given us

5 by the Prosecutor only refers to the ERN numbers.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. I mean, that's --

7 MR. ACKERMAN: And neither one of us filed the documents using

8 those numbers.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: That's my problem as well.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: And the disclosure numbers would have been a much

11 easier way for us to find them, but fortunately we, with a great deal of

12 effort at least at my office we were finally able to located each of them

13 and get them in a binder. So I think we have them all now.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. de Roux?

15 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] It's exactly the same problem which

16 the Defence of General Talic has to face.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And the next question that I wanted to address to

18 the Prosecution is that in this witness's statement, particularly the most

19 recent of these statements, there is a reference to his book. And he

20 refers as he goes along in his statement to various passages from this

21 book by page and also by phrases. The Chamber is not in possession of

22 this book. I wonder what your reaction to this -- to this is.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, the Prosecution did translate a

24 portion of this book --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And it is in --

Page 1395

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: In English.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: But the book was written in Serbo-Croat. No?

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: In B/C/S, yes. And I believe 81 -- 82 pages have

4 been translated. If Your Honours would appreciate that, we can give a

5 copy of the Court.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Have the Defence been supplied with a copy of the

7 translation?

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. They were all part -- this document, the

9 book, was a part of disclosure 7.99, which was a disclosure on this

10 witness, I think it's called. I see it -- on my copy it's labelled

11 "Attachment 2." And the other documents -- and I apologise if - I guess

12 it's a lesson learned from me - if I didn't provide those disclosure

13 numbers to counsel. I believe all the other documents were also under

14 disclosure number 7.99. They may have attachment numbers which I didn't

15 include in the list provide to the Defence. But I've learned my lesson.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. de Roux?

17 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you have spoken the

18 words I wished to say. Curiously enough, the witness refers to his own

19 testimonies, and the documents are testimonies that refer to a book that

20 he wrote, and we haven't got the entire copy, the integral copy, which is

21 quite strange. And we would like to have the book in its totality be

22 given to us because the book itself relies on other documents which we

23 could not use the system of indirect evidence because the testimony relies

24 on the book, and we would like to have it.


Page 1396

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Well, the book was published. I don't know how

2 available it is now. I don't have a copy of the entire book, but I know

3 the witness does. We could possibly get a photocopy in B/C/S.

4 This is, to my knowledge, the first time that at least I have

5 heard of the request from the Defence for the entire book. And obviously,

6 a translation of that at this moment is not going to be possible. But we

7 have translated and disclosed quite a while ago the first 82 pages.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, the Chamber is not asking you to translate the

9 book. And you have confirmed that you have translated the parts from the

10 book that the witness obviously will be make reference to.

11 The thing is this: That last week, precisely, we had a witness

12 who was -- referred to a book written by two historians or experts on the

13 situation in -- on what happened in the territory of the former

14 Yugoslavia. And he was asked on parts, specific parts, from that book.

15 The question arose then whether that book should be available. And in

16 actual fact, in the course of the re-examination by the Prosecution,

17 further parts from that book, further extracts, actually, almost an entire

18 chapter, was photocopied from that book, brought forward, and

19 re-examination was based on the rest of that book. So more or less now I

20 think you should, Mr. Koumjian you should know why I brought this up. It

21 may well be important for the Defence to go through the rest of that book,

22 just as your colleague Mr. Cayley did, in regard to the other book that we

23 used during Dr. Donia's evidence last week. So let's not make an issue

24 out of it. If it is possible to have in the course of the day someone

25 photocopy this book, please do give it.

Page 1397

1 The Tribunal itself does not need a copy in B/C/S, which is a

2 language that we don't understand. But at least it should be in the

3 records of this particular case. It should be there. And that would be

4 the copy that the Prosecution would have provided the Tribunal with. As

5 far as our personal needs are concerned, it's going to be of very little

6 use, except, of course, if we need to have it here and someone will be

7 translating bits and piece of it, which I don't think will be the case.

8 But I think that brings the matter to an end, and we can move from there.

9 So Mr. Cayley, shall we call your -- the witness does not enjoy or

10 has not asked for any protective measures. No?

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: That's correct.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So we can proceed by asking the Registry to bring in

13 Mr. Muharem Krzic, please.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I believe your microphone might be on

15 and we might be hearing your conference. At least I was hearing you. You

16 probably didn't mean for me to.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

18 [The witness entered court]

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Krzic, you're going to be asked to make a solemn

20 declaration by the registrar. Thank you.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

22 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


24 JUDGE AGIUS: You may sit down.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 1398

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, Mr. Krzic, before the process of questioning

2 commences, I would like to just give you some basic information. We are

3 the three Judges composing this Trial Chamber.

4 To your right is the team of the Prosecution -- for the

5 Prosecution. And the first person, the one nearest to you will be the

6 counsel that will be directing questions to you in chief.

7 To your left, there are two rows. The first row consists of the

8 Defence team for Mr. Brdjanin. At the back, there is the Defence team for

9 General Talic.

10 The accused are --

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, a moment, Your Honour.


13 MR. ACKERMAN: May I ask that the Trial Chamber not identify the

14 accused, since this could become an issue with regard to the testimony.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You are right.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: And here right in front of us is the team composing

18 the Registry.

19 Now, you will be asked questions first by the Prosecution and

20 afterwards by the Defence on cross-examination. I would imagine that this

21 process will last a few days. If at any given moment you feel tired or

22 you need a break, please do not hesitate to request -- request it from the

23 Trial Chamber.

24 Yes, Mr. Koumjian, please.

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 1399

1 Examined by Mr. Koumjian:

2 Q. Mr. Krzic, just to remind you -- I know that we've spoken of this

3 before, but I know that you speak enough English that you're going to

4 understand most of the questions I ask in English. I remind you to wait

5 for the translation and to pause after you've heard the entire translation

6 just a moment, a few seconds, and then to give your answer entirely in

7 your own language. Thank you.

8 Sir, during the period of this indictment, which is April the 1st

9 to December the 31st of 1992, where did you live?

10 A. I lived in Banja Luka, in the area of Hijseta [phoen]. This is

11 the part going towards Jajace, about 2 and a half kilometres from the town

12 centre. Is that enough?

13 Q. Yes, thank you. Sir, during this period of time, were you the

14 president of the political party the SDA in Banja Luka?

15 A. Yes --

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, Your Honour.

17 A. Yes, I was.


19 MR. ACKERMAN: I think Mr. Koumjian was probably not here when you

20 talked about leading questions. That was pretty dramatically --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: This is harmless. I mean, if the question would

22 have been do you have -- were you engaged in political activity, in what

23 capacity, and the answer would have been just the same. You know, I mean,

24 so I will admit that direct question.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: I understand. I'm just pointing out that he wasn't

Page 1400

1 here when you set the ground rules regarding that and may not know --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: But from his pronunciation, I understand he comes

3 from a jurisdiction where he knows very well what a direct question is and

4 how he should avoid it. But this is a direct question that could be

5 admitted.

6 Please go ahead.

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: I did read the transcript of Your Honour's advice

8 and also noted Your Honour indicated that there would be exceptions on

9 matters to expedite the trial.

10 Q. Sir, during this time period, did you work to promote a particular

11 vision for your country, a political future for Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12 A. Yes, I did. I was one of the founders of the SDA in Banja Luka.

13 I was the first secretary and the first president elected by secret ballot

14 at the end of 1991. I -- through my political activity, I tried to

15 promote political ideas and the political statutory provisions of my

16 party. But these political determinants were with the normal positions of

17 law, democratic law, from all points of view and human rights. So I'm

18 glad to say that in that respect, our political views were in compliance

19 with general human rights.

20 Q. During that period of time, did you work to support or oppose the

21 policies of the authorities in Banja Luka at that time, those being

22 members of the SDS?

23 A. In the first period, the period of democratic change following the

24 fall of communism, the informal downfall, I would say, because the

25 political parties took part in the elections, the left wing parties

Page 1401

1 participated in the elections, in B and H political parties were reflected

2 in three parties, the SDS, the SDA, and the HDZ, the parties that had some

3 joint aspirations. And there was no reason, given the democratic

4 aspirations, there was no reasons for them not to be supported by all.

5 I'm speaking about the early period when there was general consensus in

6 respect of the democratic options within the frameworks of B and H as a

7 republic and then as a state, an independent state of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

8 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't make myself clear. But this question is now

9 dealing with the period of the conflict. And I will go back in a little

10 while to the pre-conflict period.

11 During the period of the conflict from April through the end of

12 1992, this period of the conflict, did you work at that time to oppose the

13 authorities in power in Banja Luka?

14 A. Could you -- well, I didn't quite understand at the beginning what

15 you were asking me, but now I understand the question. Not only in that

16 period but also in earlier periods, we were in a situation where we had to

17 oppose the generally publicised views of the SDS party. The positions of

18 that party were in collusion not only with the agreement that we had

19 signed between coalition partners, but it was also at odds with overall

20 human democratic legal principles in many of their segments. Of course we

21 had to be critical towards these views and then to oppose them. As time

22 went by, the positions in the case of the SDS party, they became

23 increasingly centred on single-minded -- the SDS single mindedness that

24 took no account of not only the coalition agreements but did not take into

25 account or consideration any other political views and options. Of course

Page 1402

1 I can explain this further, but I think it would be enough for the

2 moment.

3 Q. Sir, can you just tell the Trial Chamber now some of the methods

4 that you used during this time period to oppose the authorities in power

5 in Banja Luka.

6 A. Well, basically and principally, we opposed the views in a

7 political fashion, political action, in other words, public political

8 action, action within society, through the media, through the press, by

9 writing, action within the parliament of the municipality of Banja Luka,

10 and action within the parliament of the Assembly of B and H through our

11 representative. This was basically political resistance, very clear,

12 transparent, and based on arguments.

13 Q. You indicated that part of your methods were contact with

14 outsiders, including the media. Was that limited to media within your

15 country, Bosnia and Herzegovina, or did you also meet with foreigners?

16 A. Of course, our predominant contact were with the domestic media,

17 the media from the former Yugoslavia, because their representatives were

18 present in Banja Luka. But as the political and security situation

19 exacerbated, there was never greater presence of foreign correspondents,

20 representatives of the foreign media. And the whole relationship,

21 attitude towards the foreign media was natural. We were very present in

22 this campaign. And the domestic mass media were under the influence of

23 the SDS. So we were unable to openly state our views without being

24 corrected.

25 I forgot to say through this, in our political activities and

Page 1403

1 through our opposition and resistance, a very important activity of ours

2 was geared to foreign representatives, representatives of the European

3 Community who were present in Banja Luka for a period of time. These were

4 contacts also with foreign diplomats and representatives of foreign

5 states, American senators, for instance, and representatives of different

6 embassies. Through these contacts, I must also mention the co-presidents

7 of the Security Council, Mr. Owen and Mr. Vance.

8 And as regards the position in Banja Luka, and more broadly

9 speaking, which I will explain later on, were aimed at informing the world

10 of the situation that prevailed in that area and with our positions in

11 regard to that situation. In other words, we were to some extent forced

12 to have our information reach the world, the democratic world, and in that

13 sense we established all sorts of contacts, in writing also, with the

14 outside world, representatives of the UN, and of different foreign

15 embassies.

16 Q. Thank you. In addition to informing the world about what was

17 going on, you mentioned the word "resistance." Did your resistance

18 efforts also include clandestinely providing information that would be of

19 assistance to your government about events in Banja Luka area?

20 A. As regards what I've told you about the contacts that we had with

21 foreign media and foreign representatives constituted also another form of

22 process, a normal process which came into existence with the overall

23 democratisation process in the former Yugoslavia, including Banja Luka and

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So throughout that period of time before and after

25 the elections, there was no specific need to hide such contacts or talks

Page 1404












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1405

1 or to try and represent them in any other way to the foreign media. But

2 we did begin at one in -- point in time to hide information. And the

3 reason for that was the security situation in Banja Luka.

4 At one point in time, that is on the 4th of April, 1992, Banja

5 Luka was occupied and any resistance towards the regime was life

6 threatening and very dangerous, especially for prominent members of

7 political parties. Therefore, we were forced to find appropriate ways to

8 present the information about what was going on and what we were doing

9 about it and to have this information reach foreign media and foreign

10 representatives, because at the same time there was a very strong

11 propaganda by the SDS party which endeavoured to hide and conceal the

12 terror that was going on at the time or to misinterpret it, misrepresent

13 it, and explain it through some other means and to ignore other political

14 parties, including their views and positions, because at the time, those

15 positions were actually reflected by us who were representatives of our

16 electorate.

17 As for the ways we tried to present various types of information,

18 I can speak about that at length if you're interested in details.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment before you proceed. It's a very useful

20 piece of advice that this Trial Chamber is duty-bound to give you as a

21 witness, is that in the course of the examination-in-chief and also in the

22 course of any cross-examination, should you be asked any questions which

23 would entail, if you give a proper answer to them, would entail that you

24 might be exposing yourself to criminal proceedings either in your own

25 country or elsewhere, you are at liberty to ask the Trial Chamber not to

Page 1406

1 answer those questions. In other words, in the course of your evidence,

2 you cannot be forced in any way to make statements that may expose you to

3 any criminal proceedings. So please go ahead.


5 Q. Mr. Krzic, in 1996 --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


8 Q. Mr. Krzic, in 1996 did you publish a book entitled "Crimes Against

9 the Banja Luka Krajina, 1992 to 1994"?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Sir, can you tell us the year and the place of your birth?

12 A. I was born on the 19th of December, 1940, in Maglaj, Central

13 Bosnia.

14 Q. What is your religion?

15 A. Islam is my religion.

16 Q. Can you briefly tell the Trial Chamber what your education was?

17 A. Let me start with high school, which I completed in Banja Luka. I

18 obtained a degree from -- in Zagreb from the University of Zagreb. I am a

19 veterinarian by profession. I also did my master's degree in Sarajevo,

20 and I underwent a couple of specialisations, one of them, for example, in

21 Denmark. So -- and that would be my educational background in a

22 nutshell.

23 Q. Sorry to regress for a moment, but you indicated that you were

24 born in Central Bosnia. When did your family move to Banja Luka?

25 A. My family lived in Banja Luka for a while during the Second World

Page 1407

1 War, and at one point in time, we moved to Maglaj and Zavidovici. And I

2 think it was in 1952 that we went back to Banja Luka. And I began my

3 studies in 1959 in Zagreb.

4 Q. After completing your education, can you briefly tell the Court

5 what your professional experience was?

6 A. I spent several years as veterinarian practitioner. I started

7 working in Maglaj after I completed my military service. And then in

8 Banja Luka, I was an associate at the so-called reproduction centre. And

9 then I moved to the veterinarian station in Banja Luka where, in 1975, I

10 believe, I became the director, the chief of the centre, and I was in

11 charge of several departments of that centre. And I was involved -- I

12 also -- I was a lecturer at the University of Banja Luka. I had a course

13 entitled "By Chemistry of Meat."

14 For a couple of years I worked for the pharmacological institute

15 in Zagreb, Pliva, and it was while I was working there that the aggression

16 started.

17 And then in January 1994, I started working for the Ministry of

18 Foreign Affairs of Bosnia and Herzegovina, first as a Charges D'Affaires

19 at the Embassy of Bosnia and Herzegovina in London. In October 1994, I

20 became the head of the consulate of our mission in Oslo, and since October

21 2000, I have been working as an advisor at the Bosnian embassy in

22 Washington until present.

23 Q. So you're currently employed as a diplomat at the Bosnian embassy

24 in Washington, DC, in the United States; is that correct?

25 A. Correct.

Page 1408

1 Q. Please remind me of the year, but I believe there was an

2 earthquake sometime in the 1980s in Banja Luka. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes. In 1969 and once again in 1970. There were two earthquakes

4 in Banja Luka.

5 Q. Following one of these earthquakes, did you perform some volunteer

6 activities?

7 A. Yes. I really worked as a volunteer because the work had actually

8 nothing to do with my profession. In those very difficult days following

9 this disaster, I did my best to help people, to provide as much assistance

10 as I could in my local neighbourhood and then also beyond with another

11 group of young men. I was young at the time.

12 And the following day, that is, after the earthquake, for example,

13 I went to the former JNA cultural centre where there was a warehouse full

14 of equipment such as ground sheets, blankets, and so on and so forth.

15 Although there were still lots of aftershocks going on, we took this

16 equipment, took this material and distributed it to those in need. And we

17 helped the wounded reach the tents where some makeshift hospitals were

18 located.

19 I think it was recognised and appreciated by local authorities who

20 contacted me after the disaster.

21 There was another thing that was helpful and that was the fact

22 that I owned a vehicle, a very small vehicle, which I used to transport

23 this equipment but also to try and transport people to safe places such as

24 yards and some other outdoor localities where it was safe.

25 Q. You mentioned that some authorities -- I believe you said local

Page 1409

1 authorities noticed your volunteer work. Were those members -- at that

2 time would they have been members of the Communist Party?

3 A. Yes. Speaking of local authorities, local organisations and

4 personalities, everything was under the control of the Communist Party,

5 but not only in a negative way, because in those days the Communist Party

6 sought to find and organise people who meant something within the local

7 community.

8 The group who came to contact me actually consisted of war

9 veterans from the Second World War. And after several contacts, they

10 asked me to join the Communist Party, but at that time I did not yet

11 become a member. However, they wanted my involvement in a number of

12 social activities, which was quite an honour for me at the time being a

13 young man. But I didn't in any way believe that such an involvement would

14 be contrary to any humanistic principles, anything that I believed in.

15 And that's indeed what happened.

16 So these people came to my house. Actually, we were living in a

17 tent in those days. So amidst this destruction, which to a certain extent

18 resembled consequences of a war, it was quite an honour to be noticed

19 by -- by someone like that.

20 So shortly after that, they nominated me for the local deputy, the

21 deputy in the local government. I think I was the youngest deputy at that

22 time. I was elected through a secret ballot. There were two candidates.

23 But it was only in the next round, in the second round, that I got the

24 sufficient number of votes to become -- to become a deputy.

25 Q. Did you join then the Communist Party, and if so, for what period

Page 1410

1 of time were you a member?

2 A. Frankly, I cannot remember when that was. Probably several months

3 after those events. But at any rate, while I was doing my military

4 service, I was not yet a member of the Communist Party. I stayed with the

5 Communist Party until 1978, 1980, I believe. When I left the party, it

6 was not out of protest. I simply stopped attending its meetings.

7 However, that did not affect my activity within the society. I

8 was a very active member of the Red Cross in Banja Luka, and for a while I

9 was also the head of the Banja Luka department of the Red Cross, the

10 Centar 2 department. I was also the secretary of the municipal

11 organisation of the Socialist Party, that is, the Communist Party, the

12 Communist League.

13 And I left the party at one point in time, and I had my reasons

14 for that. If you're interested to -- in hearing them, I can tell you

15 about them also.

16 Q. Tell us, briefly, your reasons for leaving the Communist Party.

17 A. You see, I come originally from a partisan family, and our idea of

18 the Communist Party was that of an equitable, honest organisation,

19 respectful of various ethnicities and religions. However, many of these

20 things did not actually exist within the party. But on the other hand,

21 those mistakes, those errors, were not so prominent as to affect in a

22 major way the future of the society.

23 But when Marsal Tito got old and when this generation who fought

24 the Nazis during the Second World War got old, this cosmopolitan spirit

25 within the Communist League weakened, and in my opinion, the prevailing

Page 1411

1 spirit became that of Greater Yugoslav spirit. When I say that, I refer

2 mainly to the ideas of the so-called Greater Serbia.

3 This became very apparent in late 1970s, between 1970s and 1980s.

4 I don't know whether the case of Banja Luka was more prominent in that

5 respect or not. However, the overall atmosphere became rather disgusting,

6 if I may put it that way. We started feeling this greater Serbian

7 influence, and we were disappointed with this fact. We simply did not

8 believe that such a thing could happen. And that was mainly the reason

9 why I felt that I should leave the party.

10 Q. Did you remain inactive in politics, inactive, during the 1980s?

11 A. Yes, I did. I was inactive until the first multiparty elections

12 took place. But even then, I would have perhaps remained inactive had it

13 not been for the circumstances that made me become interested once again

14 in the political reality. I realised that I was in a position to make my

15 contribution to the democratic process in the former Yugoslavia, including

16 Bosnia and Herzegovina, in a peaceful way. That was my motive, my wish.

17 But my fellow citizens of Banja Luka also expressed their wish to have me

18 become active once again, and that prompted me to become involved in

19 politics once again.

20 Q. Going back to the 1980s, or remaining there for a moment, you

21 indicated that you did some work for the Red Cross in Banja Luka. Was the

22 Red Cross a multi-ethnic organisation? In other words, did all

23 nationalities participate in it, and was the aid -- the people there that

24 helped, did they consist of all nationalities?

25 A. The Red Cross was an organisation at the level of the former

Page 1412

1 Yugoslavia which had its local departments, or rather, branch offices.

2 And by virtue of circumstances, I became a volunteer in the Centar 2 Red

3 Cross organisation. That was the local branch of the Red Cross in Banja

4 Luka. I participated in a number of volunteer activities, such as

5 fund-raising during holidays or giving lectures about the Red Cross, the

6 kind of work which is typical of the Red Cross organisation everywhere

7 else in the world.

8 I was awarded a golden medal at one point in time. This kind of

9 award was given at the level of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 So I was given this gold medal for my work for the local Red Cross

11 organisation.

12 It was a multi-ethnic organisation, I must say. Quite a few of

13 its members were also members of the Communist League, but many of them

14 were not. The Red Cross also counted among its members a number of

15 religious people, and it was a very -- it was a very flexible organisation

16 in that respect. However, when I started working at Pliva, my activities

17 somewhat decreased, because I had to travel a lot throughout Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina.

19 Q. Can you explain to us the circumstances under which you became the

20 President of the SDA in Banja Luka.

21 A. The whole thing started rather spontaneously. Several prominent

22 personalities came to visit Banja Luka, including people such as Muhamed

23 Filipovic, Adil Zulfirkarpasic, who were quite famous figures, together

24 with several others, who were viewed as very democratic persons who cared

25 about the future of Bosnia and Herzegovina as a specific entity, which was

Page 1413

1 recognised as such within the former Yugoslavia. So those were the first

2 encounters which led us to believe that soon Bosnia and Herzegovina would

3 see formation of a number of political parties, democratic political

4 parties. But we also realised as early as then that it would be quite

5 difficult to organise a political party which would have a similar profile

6 as the former Communist League, and people apprehended that -- that to a

7 certain extent.

8 Such meetings, such encounters - and I'm talking about those first

9 encounters - were rather intellectual in their spirit. And they consisted

10 of a number of very fruitful discussions as to what should be done, what

11 needs to be done. And I have described them in great detail in my book.

12 This group of people consisted of a number of different persons

13 with different views, but no one thought that we should be divided along

14 national or other ethnic lines in Bosnia and Herzegovina. No one ever

15 mentioned any ethnic division in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Those

16 discussions were conducted amongst various ethnic groups in Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina. But at the same time, we also realised that people started

18 gathering along ethnic lines. When those parties were established, they

19 were initially advocating these multi-ethnic ideas.

20 So I happened to find myself in these events, but there were a lot

21 of people who were not mature enough, politically speaking, and some

22 people in general thought that I had enough experience and that I should

23 become active politically. So that was the reason why I decided to help.

24 I don't know whether you intend to bring this up later on, but I

25 have to say that as far as the SDA is concerned, at the beginning it even

Page 1414

1 counted a dozen or so Serbs or Croats as its members.

2 Q. Can you tell us when you were elected the President of the SDA for

3 Banja Luka.

4 A. Frankly speaking, the exact date escapes me at the moment, but I

5 know that it was towards the end of 1991. It may have been in October.

6 But I'm really sorry, I'm unable to tell you the exact date at this

7 point.

8 Q. So from approximately October of 1991 until what date? How long

9 did you remain the President of the SDA for Banja Luka?

10 A. Officially and legally speaking, had it not been for the

11 aggression and the subsequent events, I was the president of the party

12 until the next assembly was convened. I don't know exactly when that

13 happened, but I believe that it was sometime in 1994. I don't remember

14 the exact date. It was until that time that I was the President of the

15 SDA.

16 Several members of the Executive Council of the SDA in Banja Luka

17 and some of the deputies of the SDA of Banja Luka convened a meeting in

18 Sarajevo. And during that meeting, the leadership of the party was

19 entrusted with a different person. Whereas in Banja Luka, after I was

20 expelled from Banja Luka, it was Smail Djuzef who became the president of

21 the party. And formally speaking, he remained in Banja Luka to lead the

22 Banja Luka branch of the SDA, formally speaking.

23 Q. Perhaps just one more question before the break. Mr. Krzic, you

24 mentioned leaving Banja Luka. When was it that you left Banja Luka, and

25 where did you go?

Page 1415

1 A. I left Banja Luka sometime in November 1993, some 20 days after my

2 release from prison. And it was through the auspices of the UNHCR that I

3 was able to leave Banja Luka. At that time I was injured, and I requested

4 the permission to leave Banja Luka. However, without the assistance of

5 the UNHCR, it would have been impossible for me to leave town. There were

6 a lot of games surrounding my permission which would be given to me at one

7 point in time but then revoked the week -- the following week. But

8 finally, the vehicle that took me out was driven by Mr. Luigi Gentile, who

9 was the officer in charge of the UNHCR in Banja Luka at the time, and he

10 actually transported me to Zagreb in November 1993.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We will break for 20 minutes, resuming the

12 sitting at ten to 11.00. In the meantime, the witness will remain, of

13 course, in the same position.

14 We will continue -- we will continue your evidence after the

15 hearing is resumed. I thank you.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated. Bring the witness in again,

19 please.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, while the witness is on his way in, I

21 would just like to inform the Court that I was informed by the always

22 efficient Ms. Richterova, one of our trial counsels, that the book of

23 Dr. Krzic was disclosed to the Defence in its entirety in B/C/S on the

24 20th of April of last year, and we also provided counsel with another copy

25 today.

Page 1416

1 MR. ACKERMAN: We never contended it wasn't supplied in B/C/S.

2 It's the English translation that hasn't been supplied. And as a

3 statement of the witness, the Rules tend to require that, I think.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just to clarify --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, I mean, let's be sensible. If we were

6 to expect that every book that a witness will be referring to which is in

7 Serbo-Croat or B/C/S needs to be translated, even if there is one page

8 that is going to be referred to during a testimony, I mean, you will not

9 have the Trial Chamber behind you in that, definitely not.

10 So where is the witness?

11 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I certainly was not requesting,

13 suggesting that any book that he refers to needs to be completely

14 translated. I was only talking about his own writings. That's what I was

15 referring to.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll come that when it's the case.

17 Mr. Krzic, you're going to continue giving evidence upon the same

18 solemn declaration that you entered at the beginning of this morning's

19 session.

20 Yes, Mr. Koumjian, please.


22 Q. Mr. Krzic, we talked about Banja Luka, and I'd like you to briefly

23 provide the Judges of this Trial Chamber a little background about that

24 municipality. When you say you're President of Banja Luka, do you mean

25 the city or municipality? President of the SDA.

Page 1417












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1418

1 A. Of course I mean the municipality. Would you like me to give you

2 a description, provide more information? I haven't understood you well.

3 Q. Banja Luka is the name of both the municipality and a city --

4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, counsel, please.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Sorry.

6 Q. Banja Luka is the name of both a municipality and a city; is that

7 correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Were you the President of the SDA for the municipality of Banja

10 Luka?

11 A. I was. The municipality of Banja Luka, yes.

12 Q. And can you describe for the Judges what the municipality of Banja

13 Luka consisted of? Were there many cities? Were there villages? Just a

14 brief description of that municipality.

15 A. Apart from the urban centre itself in Banja Luka, which

16 represented a compact part of the town, it had within its municipality

17 tens of villages. And it should be pointed out that the Banja Luka

18 municipality was one of the most extensive territorial municipalities in

19 the former Yugoslavia. There were about ten villages there. I don't know

20 the exact number, but perhaps it exceeded 50. It also had -- if we are

21 talking about villages, it exceeded 50, but it also had local communes,

22 village local communes, and these local communes are smaller municipal

23 units of self-management, if I am expressing myself correctly, which

24 was -- which were also territorial units which encompassed -- encompassed

25 or could encompass one or several villages depending on the size.

Page 1419

1 The local commune Ivanjska, Brozani Majdan were particularly

2 prominent in this sense. Misin Han, Karanovic, and others. But the local

3 communes also existed within the city, the town itself. We spoke about

4 parts of the town, but these parts, these areas, also had their social and

5 political communities, as they're called. So the municipality is at a

6 higher level of these associations. Local communes are a lower

7 organisational unit.

8 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how the various nationalities were

9 mixed within the municipality were mixed and if there was a difference

10 between mixing of nationalities within the city and outlying villages?

11 A. Banja Luka is -- the municipality of Banja Luka is a multinational

12 one; it always has been. But the internal distribution of the population

13 underwent greater or lesser modifications. The greatest changes occurred

14 from turmoje [phoen]. How do you say that in English? Such as wars --

15 turmoils, such as wars.

16 Banja Luka underwent certain national changes, especially when we

17 are speaking about the city, the town, which had always had a majority

18 Bosnian population, Bosniak population. This majority gradually waned

19 through wars and also because of the weather and because of earthquakes;

20 in 1969, for example. Furthermore, the distribution of the population,

21 the structure in the town was also influenced by the formation of a

22 military base in Banja Luka, which I think was the biggest or one of the

23 biggest ones in the former Yugoslavia, because with this military base --

24 many officers came because of this military base. There were several

25 thousand men with their families, and we knew that the composition of this

Page 1420

1 Banja Luka corps was -- it was composed of a single nationality.

2 Banja Luka is multinational. The city is multinational. But we

3 must say that certain areas were predominantly populated by one or another

4 nation, by one or another people. It is characteristic of Banja Luka that

5 the village population tended to be Serb; they were members of the Serbian

6 population. There were fewer Croats. And there were very few Bosniaks in

7 the village areas; we are talking about four or five villages at the

8 most.

9 However -- I'm thinking about the communist regime. The relation

10 between the people -- the peoples was not that marked in society. It was

11 not that visible. Conflicts between the peoples up until a certain time,

12 until the influence of the old communist sector waned, these conflicts

13 were not noticeable. Any violation of relations between people were

14 punished, quite severely. The activity of our political parties and of

15 the SDA, we functioned in such an environment. Banja Luka had about --

16 the municipality of Banja Luka, about 180, 190,000 people. I believe that

17 you are aware of the census of 1991. And if you would like to see what

18 the relation was prior to that date, then the census will support what I

19 have just been saying.

20 It's true there were certain -- it was noticed that when great

21 changes took place, caused in this case by an earthquake, in such events,

22 there was a -- there were slight national modifications, disturbances.

23 People would come to Banja Luka. They were attracted to the city by the

24 financial conditions there, the finances for the reconstruction of the

25 city. This also -- this does not only involve reconstruction but also the

Page 1421

1 extension of the city and the establishment of industry. So the arrival

2 of people into an urban surroundings entailed certain changes, which took

3 place among the population of Banja Luka.

4 Q. Thank you. If I could ask you -- I appreciate all of the

5 information you provide, but if you can try to limit your answers to the

6 shortest answer possible to give a complete answer to the question, and

7 then if we need additional information, we will ask you for additional

8 questions.

9 Can you tell us, sir, whether Banja Luka had any importance in the

10 region as an industrial or educational centre.

11 A. Of course. By the nature of things, Banja Luka has always had its

12 importance, historical and economic, political importance, within the new

13 communist Yugoslavia. It was very strong in economic terms. And it

14 was -- it had a very strong educational influence. Though it was a

15 university centre, it had about ten departments, some of which were very

16 important, such as the medical faculty. In addition, Banja Luka had very

17 strong industry and very varied industry which was developing, and it

18 created many new jobs. So as a result, it became a centre which attracted

19 the work force or the intellectuals.

20 Students in Banja Luka who studied there, they had greater --

21 better possibilities of finding employment. So some people from other

22 republics, not just Bosnia-Herzegovina, tried to find employment in Banja

23 Luka, and they succeeded in doing this. As a result, Banja Luka really

24 became a fluctuating -- a changing economic and political and cultural

25 centre in that part of Bosanska Krajina. Bosanska Krajina was often mixed

Page 1422

1 in a narrow and in a -- in a more -- in a larger sense. I'm talking about

2 this larger sense. So it was a natural economic centre, Banja Luka.

3 Q. In 1990, did you have an illness that forced you to leave Banja

4 Luka for a period of time?

5 A. Just before the elections, I had to have an operation, to leave

6 for an operation. I went to Belgrade, and I was absent for almost a

7 month, I think, so that I wasn't a candidate for the representative post,

8 for the post of deputies, at no level whatsoever. I returned from this

9 hospitalisation when the elections had actually started, so I was able to

10 observe these elections and participate in the control of the elections.

11 Q. Following the elections, can you give us a brief list of the

12 positions that you held within the SDA party in Banja Luka.

13 A. I was the first secretary of the party, elected at the first

14 elections -- in the first elections. I was then elected as one of the

15 deputy presidents. The elections were held within the -- one of the main

16 committees of the party because it was necessary to replace the first

17 leader, Hamza Mujagic -- Dr. Hamza Mujagic who led the party at a

18 certain -- when there was a certain political conflict between the MBO

19 party and the SDA. He moved -- he transferred to the MBO party. And in

20 that vacuum, we had to find a replacement very rapidly. And when these

21 changes were taking place, I was one of the deputy presidents of the party

22 until 1991 -- the end of 1991, when I was elected as president of the

23 party.

24 I was also a member of the regional committee of the SDA party for

25 the Bosanska Krajina region. I was a member -- I was also a member of the

Page 1423

1 Main Committee of the SDA, of the SDA central branch, so to speak.

2 Q. You mentioned the MBO party. Was that the party founded by

3 Mr. Muhamed Filipovic, who you had mentioned earlier was involved in early

4 discussions of the political life in Banja Luka?

5 A. That's right. Mr. Filipovic was one of the founders, and I think

6 that Zulfikarpasic was, too. I mentioned both of them earlier on.

7 Q. What were the results of the elections in 1990 in the Banja Luka

8 municipality?

9 A. Around 90 -- 48 per cent went to the Serbian Democratic Party.

10 The Party of Democratic Action -- these are approximate figures, so please

11 forgive me if they're not precise. You probably have the right figures.

12 The Party of Democratic Action about 12 per cent, 30 per cent for the

13 HDZ. I think it was about 20 per cent for the parties on the left or

14 perhaps a little more. I include the Reformist Party as one of the

15 leftist parties and the Socialist Party, and I include the Liberal Party

16 too.

17 So the municipality of Banja Luka had about 133 deputies in

18 total. So the SDS party did not have a majority, did not have more

19 deputies, more than half of the deputies. In fact, the number of votes

20 for the SDS was more or less -- was close to the number, according to

21 the -- reflected the census of 1991 in the municipality of Banja Luka.

22 Q. Do you recall the number of seats that the SDS party held in the

23 municipality following the election? You indicated that there were 133

24 seats in the Municipal Assembly. Do you recall how many of those seats

25 were held by SDS candidates?

Page 1424

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Just for the record, Your Honour --

2 Q. Let me stop you for a moment, sir, because I see you've pulled

3 out, I believe, a copy of your book, and we haven't talked about that.

4 If you need to refer to anything during your testimony to refresh

5 your recollection, I'm not sure of the Court's procedures, and I'm just

6 going to go -- I'll ask the Court what the Court's procedures are, but I

7 believe first you have to indicate that you need to do that and then we

8 would ask the Court's permission to do so.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: You've put it exactly as I was about to put it, not

10 knowing exactly what the witness had in front of him because I can only

11 see up to his tie and a book I couldn't catch a glimpse of.

12 Yes. But, Mr. Krzic, before you make reference to a document,

13 you're supposed to make that request, and you also should make available

14 that document for anyone to see it so requesting.

15 So will you tell us what that document you have in your hand is,

16 please.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise for this

18 omission, for not following your procedure. Earlier on, I told the

19 Prosecutor that because of the extensive nature of the material or the

20 information that you have to use when examining, and in particular when a

21 cross-examination is taking place, I have to use documents. In this case,

22 I have chosen my book which I wrote and for which I had full information

23 on the truth.

24 It's impossible to have all this information in one's head, and I

25 would appreciate it if you could allow me to occasionally make use of the

Page 1425

1 book for the sake of this information. And I'm also taking this

2 opportunity to ask you whether I could keep my personal information with

3 me, if I can put it here. It's just three pages from a notebook of mine.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Yes, Mr. Krzic. You don't need to apologise,

5 because this has not been taken by the Trial Chamber as something out of

6 disrespect or anything like that. I understand that you're not a legal

7 man and, therefore, this has got nothing to do with courtesy or whatever.

8 We will certainly, at this point in time, allow you to make

9 reference to your book, because as you said, people who are walking

10 encyclopedias are very rare nowadays, particularly in regard to events

11 that happened in a time of turmoil like in this case.

12 As regards the other document, if you are going to make reference

13 to your own personal notes, then you may be requested to let us have a

14 copy of them as you go along and prior to your being questioned

15 thereupon. But if you're going to make reference to personal papers that

16 you have, please make them available to both the Prosecution and the

17 Defence. Otherwise, you have full permission from the Trial Chamber to

18 make reference to whatever documents you require to refresh your memory or

19 to make, put you in a position where you can give a better answer to the

20 questions put to you or better, give us better information.

21 Is that clear to both Prosecution and Defence?

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I will only say that when -- when I

23 was asking Mr. Donia about passages from a book, I provided the Prosecutor

24 with copies of all those passages that I was going to ask him to refer to

25 to enable them to follow it and to enable Dr. Donia to follow it.

Page 1426

1 I'll say again, we do not -- we only have the B/C/S version and a

2 partial English translation, and I don't know how I can cross-examine him

3 about a book that I can't look at, and that's the problem. But I have no

4 objection to his referring to his book as long as there will come a time

5 when, for purposes of cross-examination, I will have it in English

6 translation so I can cross-examine him in a fair and just manner.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman. There are two points that have

8 been made. One is the book, and a book, I take it from declaration and

9 affirmation made earlier by the Prosecution, that this book in its

10 entirety was disclosed to you in April of last year. So as far as I am

11 concerned, the book was available to you. It was a book written by one of

12 the witnesses that had been indicated to you, and as far as the Trial

13 Chamber is concerned, more or less that represents a closed episode.

14 With regard to the other personal papers that the witness came

15 prepared with, then obviously the Trial Chamber was not aware of that, of

16 this, you were not aware of that, and I suppose that none of us is in a

17 position to know what those documents contain, these personal papers. So

18 the position there is definitely different. In other words, if the

19 witness is going to ask permission to refresh his memory or to aid himself

20 in providing us with proper answers to the questions put to him by

21 referring to his own personal notes, then the Trial Chamber will give him

22 the opportunity to do so provided he makes those notes available to all of

23 us, because obviously you have a right to have a look at all those notes,

24 Prosecution has to right to look at all those notes, and although, as I

25 put it, none of us three knows B/C/S, we would still require to have a

Page 1427

1 copy of those personal notes entered into the records. So that is the

2 position.

3 But as far as the book is concerned, I would imagine that

4 Mr. Krzic is going to take days in giving evidence. You have this book.

5 I'm sorry, I'm not going to open any further chapters there. Disclosure

6 is there to make -- to put you in a position to be able to conduct the

7 examination or cross-examination as it may be required, but I can't

8 tolerate that you come here April -- so that's seven, eight -- eight

9 months after that this document has been disclosed telling me, "I have not

10 read it because it's in B/C/S." It was disclosed in a language,

11 definitely, which your client understands, and you have your Serbo-Croat

12 members of your team as well. And I would definitely not go beyond what I

13 have already stated. We have to go ahead, Mr. Ackerman.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I must make a proper record. If it is

15 the position of Your Honour that I should have translated that book

16 myself, I must advise you that the Registry will not pay for anybody to

17 translate a book of that nature for me. They will tell me that I must

18 submit it to CLSS.

19 In addition, the Rules of this Tribunal require that any statement

20 by a witness, any prior statement by a witness that the Prosecution -- a

21 witness whom the Prosecution intends to call, the Prosecution has an

22 obligation under the Rules to provide a translation of any statement in a

23 working language of this Tribunal. That has not been done with regard to

24 this book.

25 Now, I won't know, I won't have any idea until sometime later in

Page 1428

1 the next day or two what pages of this book this witness is going to refer

2 to. I won't know whether those pages have been translated or not. We

3 have, I think they told me this morning, 82 pages of the book that have

4 been translated, which leaves a certain number of -- a significant number

5 of pages that have not. And until I know which pages he's referring to, I

6 cannot possibly know to prepare for cross-examination with regard to those

7 pages. And once I know, if I don't have them in translation, I won't be

8 able to read them. The Rules are violated by the Prosecution not giving

9 us a translation of that document. Now, I understand that that is because

10 everything is backed up in the translation section of this Tribunal. And

11 I sympathise with that. And I'm not saying the Prosecutor should have

12 gotten it to us any quicker. I know there's a problem with translation.

13 I'm just telling you that it's impossible for me to properly cross-examine

14 a witness on a book that I can't read. And so I've made my record. And I

15 know what your ruling is. And we can go forward.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Ackerman, Prosecution earlier on declared

17 that the relevant parts referred to in Mr. Krzic's previous statements and

18 to which Mr. Krzic will be referring from in his book during at the time

19 the present testimony had been translated and made available.

20 Am I correct?

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes, Your Honour, that's correct.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

23 And telling the Trial Chamber that you don't know which pages from

24 his book he will be referring to or has referred to in prior statements is

25 not correct. I have the statements that has been made by the witness as a

Page 1429

1 result -- or during the interviews of the 10th and 14th of December, 2000

2 and then 10th, and 12th, and 14th, and 15th of February, 2001. In this

3 document, he goes through the book not exactly page by page, but he makes

4 specific reference and specific references not only to the page number but

5 also to the specific paragraphs that he was being asked to comment upon.

6 That's page 18, page 21, page 24. The moment you are in a position to

7 confirm to me that these pages have not been translated into English and

8 not made available to you, then I will entertain further objections from

9 you but not until then.

10 Yes, Mr. de Roux.

11 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I fully agree with

12 this Honourable Chamber's position. However, I wish to note that when the

13 witness wants to refresh his memory, opens his notebook on relevant

14 portions or pages which have not been translated or disclosed by the

15 Prosecution, we never know exactly which page is being used for this

16 purpose. Personally, I don't see any bad faith in this; however, from the

17 procedural point of view, I think that we are somewhat beyond the scope of

18 the relevant provisions.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Koumjian.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you. In answer to Mr. de Roux's point, I

21 believe it would be fair that the witness cites the page that he is

22 referring to when he does need to refresh his recollection.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: Briefly, the Prosecution's position on Mr.

25 Ackerman's points are that we do not believe that every book or article or

Page 1430












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1431

1 every writing of a witness constitutes a statement according to the

2 Rules. The book in B/C/S was provided nine months ago. And to my

3 knowledge - I could be incorrect - this is the first time we have heard a

4 complaint that the entire book should have been translated. I don't know

5 if the Defence could have -- I believe they could have submitted it to

6 CLSS for translation. And I would just like to point out that unlike both

7 Defence counsel who have both B/C/S speakers next to them, I have the

8 tremendous disadvantage of having Mr. Cayley sitting next to me who can't

9 help me at all.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Imagine if you had Ms. Korner too. That would have

11 made confusion more confused. Anyway, we'll come to that.

12 Mr. de Roux, if at any given point the witness will refer to a

13 page from the book that I have reason to believe has not been translated

14 and disclosed to you, then obviously the position might change according

15 to the importance of the question and the information being sought. But

16 we'll play it by the ear as we go along.

17 But the position definitely at the present moment is that please

18 don't talk to the Trial Chamber any more about having the entire book

19 translated at this point in time and made available before any one of you

20 feels confident in going ahead with the cross-examination. Let's be

21 reasonable and sensible, and everyone will have his or her piece of cake.

22 Yes. Mr. Koumjian, please proceed with your examination.


24 Q. Mr. Krzic, just to remind you of the question, which we may have

25 all forgotten, the question was: If you recall, first, or have you

Page 1432

1 refreshed your recollection through your book as to the number of seats in

2 the municipality which were held by the SDS following the elections in

3 1990?

4 A. As far as I can remember, there were 65 deputies from the SDS, 14

5 from the HDZ, 13 from the SDA, 13 SDP, 22 SRS - this was another left wing

6 party - and 2 from the Liberal party. I can say, perhaps, that my memory

7 is not 100 per cent fresh, but you have official information from the

8 electoral bodies of Banja Luka or of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

9 But if you allow me, Mr. Prosecutor - I don't know if this is

10 allowed - I would like to turn your attention to some information. These

11 are not -- this is not special information. There are -- it is a

12 three-page document of decisions reflecting information from documents

13 which I tried to summarise and which I can submit to the Defence. It is a

14 book and refers to the book that they have received, not information

15 outside the frameworks of the book. And not to have to turn all the pages

16 of the books, I wanted to have this all -- all this information in one

17 place.

18 Q. Thank you for your answer to the question. I think we need to

19 clarify perhaps the additional information you provided. Normally I'd ask

20 you to just limit your answer to the question, but I will digress for a

21 moment. Are you talking about notes that you prepared over the weekend to

22 refresh your recollection and prepare for your testimony?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And would you have any problem with providing both the Defence and

25 the Prosecution a copy of those notes, allowing us to photocopy those?

Page 1433

1 A. No problems at all. But I apologise. It is handwritten, very

2 small writing, but I think it is legible.

3 I think the main point of these notes is to know which page in the

4 book we are referring to for a certain quotation, for a certain document,

5 so that I can open it straight away and read it out.

6 Q. It's very understandable, and we appreciate you organising

7 yourself in preparation for the testimony. I would just ask you in

8 relation to your last question -- to the last answer that you gave

9 regarding the number of seats in the municipality assembly, did you refer

10 to your book and, if so, which page did you refer to?

11 A. I have the book before me, but I'm not referring to it. I have in

12 fact -- I would like to mention that in the book the figures are somewhat

13 different. I'm speaking from memory. The figures are different in regard

14 to the overall number of deputies. In the book, it is perhaps less, one

15 or two deputies less. So I'm speaking from memory. I think my memory is

16 more accurate than that which has been written in the book because there

17 may have been some typing mistakes, printing errors.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Just for the record, which page of the book do

19 those numbers appear on?

20 A. Page 25. Page 25 of the book.

21 Q. Thank you. I'd ask you --

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Has there only been one edition of that

23 book?


25 Q. Mr. Krzic, His Honour's question is: Was there more than one

Page 1434

1 edition published?

2 A. Only one edition exists.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

4 THE INTERPRETER: Prosecution, please speak into the microphone,

5 please.


7 Q. Following the election, did you follow the events in the municipal

8 assembly and the debates on various political issues that took place in

9 the assembly?

10 A. Occasionally -- yes, at the beginning, more frequently. And as

11 time went on, less so.

12 Q. Were you present ever when a debate took place regarding changing

13 the municipal statute, as far as the number of votes that would be

14 necessary to make changes in the statute?

15 A. Yes, I was present. I remember that session very clearly.

16 Q. Had there been some debate about having Banja Luka join a group of

17 municipalities in the Bosnian Krajina, forming an association? I believe

18 it was called the association of Bosnia Krajina or the acronym ZOBK.

19 A. I can't answer that question. Do I -- can I refer to my

20 three-page document of notes, or do I have to wait for it to be

21 photocopied first before referring to it?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, before this Chamber gives a decision

23 on what has just been requested by the witness, would you request to have

24 the photocopy of this document in your hand before he starts?

25 Mr. de Roux?

Page 1435

1 Mr. Koumjian, then you can go ahead, but when we have a break in

2 about three-quarters of an hour's time, please make sure that this is

3 photocopied and made available to all parties and the Trial Chamber. In

4 the meantime, you can go ahead. Thank you.


6 Q. You may refer to those notes to answer the question if it would

7 refresh your recollection to do so, but I would ask you also to close your

8 book for now, and if you need to look at the book later, just let us

9 know. But if you need to refer to the notes now, you may take them out,

10 if you have them with you, and refer to the notes.

11 A. As regards your question, I don't think I need accuracy in terms

12 of the dates. I don't have to use my notes. I will speak from memory.

13 What the atmosphere was like, I would like to describe the

14 atmosphere at the assembly of the session. First, the rules of procedure

15 were at discussion --

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, this is not responsive to the

17 question.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I was going to bring up that point myself,

19 actually.

20 Mr. Krzic, you have been asked a very specific question, namely,

21 whether from your recollection the municipality of Banja Luka had been

22 asked or whether a decision was taken to have the municipality join the

23 association of municipalities of Bosnia Krajina, Bosanska Krajina,

24 referred to by the acronym ZOBK. That was the question.

25 If you know the answer, please give us the answer. And if you

Page 1436

1 want to give an explanation, we will consider what you have to say, but

2 please first try to answer that question before we go ahead with a

3 description of the atmosphere and the circumstances surrounding at the

4 time.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The municipality of Banja Luka

6 adopted that decision in an illegal fashion.


8 Q. Can you explain the process that took place regarding that

9 decision?

10 A. It was necessary, first of all, to respect the statute of the

11 municipality of Banja Luka. I'm not a legal expert. I don't have the

12 statute before me. I'm speaking from memory. For every important

13 decision of an interest, of a broader interest to the municipality, it was

14 necessary to be adopted on the basis of a two-third majority vote.

15 The second thing which was important at the time decisions were

16 made that the decisions of a concern, of a broader concern for the

17 municipality, needed to have the agreement of the coalition partners. In

18 this case, there had to be an agreement between the HDZ, the SDA, and the

19 peoples, in other words, that they represented.

20 Q. That was according to the agreement between the three parties, the

21 HDZ, the SDA, and SDS prior to 1990 elections; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. If the statute required a two-thirds vote to make a decision such

24 as joining an association of municipalities, was there some effort made to

25 change that statute, and if so, can you explain to us what happened?

Page 1437

1 A. At the assembly, as part of the agenda, a point of the agenda was

2 a change of the statute. I think this was in May, in the month of May in

3 1991. And as part of the agenda, the first item was a change of the

4 statute, because -- so as to be able to vote in favour of the proposal

5 which was also on the agenda. However, in order to change this statute,

6 what was lacking were the formal pre-conditions. For the changes in the

7 statute to be carried out, a public discussion was necessary at the

8 municipal level. That is, all the local communes had to be -- take part

9 in this. And once a positive reply was obtained from the local centres,

10 it was possible to formally and legally discuss changes of the statute at

11 the level of the Banja Luka municipality.

12 I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I know, in addition to this, the

13 Republic Assembly, or the government through the Republic Assembly, also

14 was duty-bound, on the basis of the then-constitution of B and H, to give

15 its consent for every demand for a territorial change either of a

16 municipality or of several municipalities in that sense. The very process

17 of changing the Constitution, of attempting to change the Constitution in

18 the municipality of Banja Luka, was carried out with a very, very loud

19 support by the SDS representatives in the assembly.

20 The hall of the assembly of the municipality was crowded with

21 people who did not represent the elected deputies. There were

22 representatives of different institutions present. And in that general

23 confusion that entailed, it was not possible to control the voting

24 procedure. And moreover, in this very atmosphere of coercion, voting for

25 the statute was in fact denied by the SDA and the HDZ representatives.

Page 1438

1 They left the assembly and the two left-wing parties, the SDP and the SRS

2 remained so as to try to take off from the agenda the question of joining

3 this ZOBK. And when they were not successful in this, they also abandoned

4 the assembly.

5 All that remained was a number of deputies from of the left-wing

6 parties who were of Serb ethnicity, and according our information, along

7 with other members of the SDS party voted in favour of a change of the

8 statute. So that the changes of the statute, if at all they were legal,

9 because according to our information there was no -- not even in that case

10 even a two-thirds majority vote in favour, was in fact forced.

11 We noted, at the time when voting took place regarding the agenda,

12 that in -- that even those who were not representatives of the municipal

13 assembly took part in the voting, and I think that some of the deputies

14 will remember names and spoke these names, pointing to the people who

15 raised their hands and who were not a part of the representative bodies in

16 the assembly. So voting took place under pressure, no account taken of

17 the protests and the objections of the official representatives of the

18 other parties.

19 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you to try to keep your answers a bit

20 shorter. It just makes it easier for these proceedings to go forward.

21 To summarise the information that you gave, to make sure we

22 understand, would it be correct to say that the SDS did not have the

23 two-thirds vote necessary to change the statute in order to join the

24 ZOBK?

25 A. That is true.

Page 1439

1 Q. But a vote took place to change the statue. You feel it was done

2 through improper means. And after that, the SDA and other political

3 parties walked out of the assembly and did not participate in the

4 municipal assembly; is that correct?

5 A. Yes. I explained the reasons for this.

6 Q. I want to move on to the period of 1991 and the war that was

7 taking place in Croatia, and I hope you can provide the Trial Chamber with

8 some information about how these events affected life in Banja Luka.

9 Can you tell us what effects the war in Croatia had upon everyday

10 life and the political situation in Banja Luka?

11 A. At the beginning of the conflict in Croatia, which at the time did

12 not have the characteristics of a war, I was -- had the opportunity to

13 travel through Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, so I can personally

14 describe how events evolved, even from that particular angle.

15 As the situation escalated in Croatia, in the military sense and

16 in the political sense in respect of the conflict, in all areas in the --

17 the tensions in the municipality of Banja Luka were raised, being raised

18 in an artificial way. That conflict, in fact, was a conflict between

19 Yugoslavia and the separatists, and that atmosphere --

20 Q. I'll just ask you not to go into the events in Croatia, but again

21 I'm concentrating on the effect in Banja Luka. Thank you.

22 A. In Banja Luka, it became increasingly noticeable that the

23 situation was worsening. As the situation escalated, the conflict

24 escalated in Croatia. This could be seen in the streets with the presence

25 of an increasing number of uniformed persons, of semi-uniformed persons.

Page 1440

1 There were weapons of all kinds that moved through the streets. And their

2 behaviour was worse every day. When I say "worse," I basically -- I'm

3 referring to the endangerment of non-Serbs. One began singing Chetnik --

4 so-called Chetnik songs, and such songs were sung in front of the post

5 office building in the city centre.

6 Can I quote some of these songs?

7 Q. Briefly.

8 A. "If it is necessary, from here wolves are howling. Move away,

9 Turks, from here to Tehran. There won't be any Muslims left."

10 In the streets, members of the Bosniak ethnicity, especially

11 people from the villages who wore clothing, national clothing, were no

12 longer allowed to wear this. This also referred -- this was also the case

13 of the Catholics. And then people began wearing the clothes that Serbs

14 usually wore. There were only slight differences in apparel, especially

15 in the villages.

16 On the radio, you could no longer hear Bosnian songs. A Catholic

17 song or a Bosniak song or even songs from the Serbian milieu that were

18 sung in Bosnia, songs glorifying the beauty of Bosnia. What we heard,

19 that this was forbidden to be broadcast on the radio. There were

20 different plays on the radio where one of the -- all three nations were

21 mentioned together. It was also prohibited.

22 In the press, one could increasingly read that the Bosniaks and

23 the Croats represented a danger for the Serbs, not quoting what sort of

24 danger it was, very often speaking of what had happened in World War II

25 but describing this in a different manner.

Page 1441

1 Once again the monument to the fallen soldiers in the village of

2 Drakulici was destroyed. It is there where retaliation took place in the

3 Second World War and about 200 people were killed. But this was

4 inaugurated once again with representatives of the municipality,

5 representatives of the church. Many people were present only of the Serb

6 nationality. So the monument was in fact re-inaugurated.

7 But in any case, there were threats of death. And then also

8 non-Serb workers were being dismissed from factories, saying that this was

9 a case of redundancy. Also, directors, managers, non-Serbs were being

10 dismissed, foremen in factories in significant enterprises but also in

11 enterprises of a military nature. And enterprises which rated with the

12 other republics, with Slovenia and Croatia. They were prevented from

13 working outside of Banja Luka. Their produce was looted. Their offices

14 were seized. In the schools, gradually teachers were instructed to speak

15 the Ekavica way of speaking and use the Cyrillic script. This was --

16 became an official order. And when conflict broke out in Croatia,

17 refugees would come and tensions were rising. And it was also stated that

18 in the educational system, teachers had to be -- that when being employed,

19 the Serbs had priority from Serbs coming from Croatia, and Bosnians who

20 refused to write in the Cyrillic script were dismissed.

21 Q. Was a state of emergency declared in the city of Banja Luka by the

22 mayor?

23 A. Yes. Attempts were being made to declare a state of emergency in

24 Banja Luka; however, we publicly opposed such attempts. Our president was

25 Mesud Islamovic at that time, the president of the SDA, and he publicly

Page 1442

1 condemned the proclamation of the state of emergency, which was contrary

2 to the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is, a state of emergency

3 can be declared only at the level of the republic. So we opposed those

4 attempts.

5 In media, Islamovic waged serious battle against such attempts.

6 We were afraid of this state of emergency because we were perfectly aware

7 of the consequences thereof. The explanation was not the increased

8 tension in the city, the tension that I have spoken about, but the fact

9 that Croatia was likely to attack Bosnia and Herzegovina. And the same

10 request was made in respect of eight other municipalities apart from Banja

11 Luka, and we believed that there was no reason for such measures.

12 May I be allowed to put my notes on the desk, please, because I

13 would then be able to provide you with specific dates in relation to what

14 you're just asking me about.

15 Q. You can --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, permission granted.


18 Q. But I would say, Mr. Krzic, at this point I don't need any

19 specific dates, so I'll move on to the next question. If you need for the

20 next question to refer to the notes, then you may do so.

21 Were there orders for the mobilisation of soldiers in the area at

22 this time during the war in Croatia, mobilisation for the then-JNA, the

23 Yugoslav army?

24 A. Yes. The mobilisation was publicly proclaimed on several

25 occasions, maybe five or six. First it was declared in respect of the

Page 1443












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 1444

1 Territorial Defence, despite the fact that the Republic of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina did not issue an official approval for mobilisation, which

3 again, we opposed publicly in the media.

4 Q. Did many Muslim and Croats refuse to -- the orders for

5 mobilisation?

6 A. Perhaps a better way of putting it would be that they avoided

7 receipt of such call-up papers they were hiding, because if you refuse

8 orders for mobilisation, there are some legal consequences for that.

9 However, several units publicly refused call-up papers. In particular,

10 I'm referring to a unit which was composed mainly of Croat nationals.

11 This unit was immediately officially charged by the military prosecutor

12 for having done that.

13 Q. Can you tell us, what were the reasons that Muslims and Croats in

14 Banja Luka avoided the mobilisation?

15 A. The main reason was the fact that we all knew that such an act was

16 illegal and was in contravention of the decisions of the Republic of

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18 Second, no one was particularly eager to fight Croats. Up until

19 that time, we all considered ourselves as brothers, and we simply couldn't

20 understand the reasons why blood should be shed amongst us, in particular

21 in view of what Bosnia-Herzegovina experienced during the Second World

22 War.

23 Q. Were any measures taken against those who avoided mobilisation or

24 against the families of those who avoided mobilisation?

25 A. I have mentioned one of such measures, but there were others as

Page 1445

1 well, one of them being, for example, public opposition in the media,

2 public resistance in the media, and then, for example, various types of

3 activities undertaken within public companies.

4 If search papers were refused, call-up papers were refused,

5 employees would be sacked within five days. Then there were people who

6 were living abroad, who did not respond to the call-up papers simply by

7 not coming to Bosnia and Herzegovina. This overall refusal of

8 mobilisation brought us into a rather awkward situation because we did not

9 have adequate papers which would have enabled us freedom of movement

10 around the town. Without such papers, you and your family would be

11 brought in the situation of being second-rate citizens.

12 There were other measures as well, which perhaps are not worth

13 mentioning at this point.

14 Q. Was there any retaliation against family members of those that

15 avoided mobilisation?

16 A. Retaliation followed very soon. Such families were the first ones

17 to be exposed to what followed and to what preceded the so-called ethnic

18 cleansing. It was those families that were first forced to abandon their

19 property, to relinquish their property to Serbs. If a member of such a

20 family should lose an official identification paper, they were denied a

21 new one. And you know what it means to be without adequate identification

22 papers in those times. If such individuals were found in the street, they

23 would be immediately arrested and taken to the front lines, in particular,

24 the front lines around the area of Orasje and Brcko to dig trenches

25 there. Some of them never returned.

Page 1446

1 As regards the police, when they were asked to sign a loyalty

2 pledge, those who had refused mobilisation were dismissed. And there were

3 many such cases within the Banja Luka SUP.

4 Q. [Microphone not activated]

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


7 Q. At the end of February in 1992, a referendum was organised

8 throughout the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina on independence for the

9 republic. Can you tell us about the vote in -- within Banja Luka

10 municipality and whether or not many individuals participated in voting on

11 that referendum.

12 A. I was authorised to conduct the referendum in Banja Luka, as far

13 as its organisation was concerned. The authorisation had been confirmed

14 at a meeting of all political parties except for the SDS. The SDS issued

15 a ban on the Serb population to take part on the referendum on

16 independence for the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And one of the

17 commanding officers of the Banja Luka barracks or maybe the staff - I'm

18 not sure - sent a request to the media containing specific instructions as

19 to how the ballot should read, what should be the wording of the

20 question. In view of such circumstances, it was very difficult for the

21 entire population to take part in the referendum. Technically speaking,

22 and as far as the organisation is concerned, it was not particularly

23 difficult to organise the referendum in Banja Luka. It is true that we

24 did not have all the equipment we needed, but there were no obstructions

25 whatsoever to count the votes. However, there was constant propaganda

Page 1447

1 against referendum going on in the media.

2 The referendum itself was conducted in all relevant areas, except

3 in the areas which were predominantly Serb, because that was not -- we

4 were not allowed to put boxes in the areas where Serbs constituted

5 majority. However, in the town of Banja Luka itself, quite a few Serbs

6 took part in the referendum. We even knew personally some of the families

7 that participated in the referendum. But when we speak of participation

8 in the referendum -- but mere participation in the referendum on the part

9 of the Serb community was considered to be a hostile act, as far as Serb

10 nationalists are concerned. The voting itself was absolutely secret. And

11 on the level of the municipality, the total -- the turnout was

12 approximately 45 per cent, and the total number of positive responses,

13 that is, responses in favour of an independent Republic of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina was 98 or 99 per cent. I'm not sure about the accurate -- the

15 exact number. Which means that almost all those who turned out voted in

16 favour of an independent Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 The referendum was observed by the representatives of the European

18 Community. They took part in the controlling process in almost every

19 constituency. I don't know whether I have answered your question.

20 Q. Yes, you have. You indicated that certain nationalists opposed

21 the participation of anyone in this referendum. Can you give some

22 examples of that?

23 A. As I said, both the media and over the radio in those days

24 broadcast opposition of the SDS and its members to the referendum. I can

25 mention, for example, Mr. Vukic, Mr. Kupresanin, Mr. Brdjanin.

Page 1448

1 I remember Mr. Vukic saying something threatening, something to

2 the effect that should the result be in favour of independence that they

3 would not accept it, that any independence can be discussed only at the

4 level of Yugoslavia and that all disputable areas, including those which

5 were not predominantly Serb, would not accept those results. They were

6 also discussing about Serbs being victims, the greatest victims in the

7 Second World War. The statements of the opposite camp were, of course,

8 different.

9 Yes, that would be more or less what happened.

10 Q. Had the SDS organised its own referendum the previous year, in

11 November 1991, regarding the political future of Bosnia?

12 A. Yes. Yes, it had. But they referred to it as "plebiscite," as

13 far as I recall.

14 Q. Was there also, similar to the political pressure that you talked

15 about regarding participation in the referendum in February 1992, was

16 political pressure applied by SDS leaders for individuals to vote

17 according to the SDS platform in the plebiscite in November 1991?

18 A. Yes, absolutely. Do you wish me to explain in more detail?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. There were explicit statements made by the SDS politicians to the

21 fact that all Serbs should turn out for the plebiscite. There was no talk

22 about voting but only about participating in the plebiscite, with the

23 threat that those who did not show up would suffer consequences. In

24 particular, leading members of the Serb community.

25 I remember a statement by Mr. Brdjanin to that effect very well.

Page 1449

1 He said that several days after the voting it would be very easy for them

2 to discover names of managers of various companies who had not turned out

3 for the referendum and that they would be dismissed. And not only in

4 Bosnian Krajina but throughout the republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

5 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, at this time I would like to show the

6 witness and have distributed to counsel and the Trial Chamber a document,

7 and this is my first attempt to do so, but I have several copies. I have

8 four copies of the document. It's disclosure 5.25, and the ERN number is

9 00547222.

10 Would Your Honours like to me to mark that in a particular

11 manner? It's marked. Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cayley, my understanding was that any such

13 documents you would come forward already with an exhibit number.

14 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, it's marked.


16 MR. CAYLEY: It's marked with the next number after the Banja Luka

17 collection, 448A and B. There are copies for Your Honours, for the

18 Court. Not for Defence on the understanding that they already have the

19 document. And again, this is not being difficult. It's simply to avoid

20 copying things over and over and over again.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: May I also have -- may I also have the document

22 given in the B/C/S to the witness, and that's 448B.

23 Q. I'd ask you, Mr. Krzic, to just take a moment to read this, the

24 article that's entitled "After the Plebiscite: You Better Give Yourselves

25 Up."

Page 1450

1 A. Yes, I have the article.

2 Q. Mr. Krzic, do you recall seeing either this article or similar

3 articles about press conferences by Mr. Brdjanin following the plebiscite

4 in November 1991?

5 A. Not only do I recall, but I also remember responding to such

6 articles in various interviews. And I also remember putting this article

7 aside, putting it in the file of our party, in the files of our party.

8 I think that in the -- in the magazine called Glas it was given

9 greater coverage, but I'm not sure.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Koumjian, perhaps you could ask him this extract

11 here from which newspaper. It has been photocopied.


13 Q. Mr. Krzic, do you recognise this newspaper as being Oslobodjenje?

14 A. Yes, that is at least my impression. The Glas magazine has a

15 different layout.

16 Q. Mr. Krzic, is Oslobodjenje, was that a newspaper published in

17 Sarajevo?

18 A. Yes. It was published in Sarajevo but distributed throughout

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina and in the former Yugoslavia as well.

20 Q. And if you are aware -- I don't know whether you know the answer

21 to this. Do you know what the ethnic composition of the staff of

22 Oslobodjenje was throughout the conflict?

23 A. I am sure that the composition of the staff was multi-ethnic, and

24 I also think that it reflected, not through any particular directive but

25 rather spontaneously, the census, the last census in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 1451

1 Also, it was printed in two scripts, as you can see here. This article is

2 written in the Cyrillic script.

3 Q. Okay. A couple of quick matters that I'm sure Your Honours are

4 familiar with but perhaps just for the record.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And up to the break.


7 Q. I'm sure Your Honours and everyone is aware of this, but can you

8 explain the difference between the Cyrillic script and the Latin script

9 that is used in Bosnia?

10 A. They use different symbols. But since both scripts were used in

11 Bosnia and Herzegovina in the same manner, that is, they reflected the

12 same variant of the language, the Ekavian variant of the language, the

13 difference was only in symbols, in actual letters.

14 Q. Historically was the Cyrillic script associated with the eastern

15 areas and the Latin script with western areas, in other words, the

16 Constantinople-Rome split?

17 A. As for the eastern and western areas, the notions are relative

18 because there were eastern areas that used Latin script as well.

19 Montenegro, I think, and Kosovo as well. So once again it is a relative

20 concept. But the fact remains that the Cyrillic script was most widely

21 used by the members of the Serb community, of Serb ethnic background

22 because of their tradition.

23 However, I must admit that the issue was not problematic in the

24 former Yugoslavia. One could use any script he or she wanted to use.

25 Q. One more quick question before the break and a change of topics.

Page 1452

1 You also mentioned Glas, a -- you called it a magazine.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: I believe Your Honours will be hearing more about

3 that during this trial.

4 Q. Could you explain briefly, Mr. Krzic, Glas, was that a newspaper

5 published in Banja Luka?

6 A. Yes. Glas was published in Banja Luka, but it was also

7 distributed in areas, in particular areas of Bosanska Krajina, of the

8 Bosnian Krajina. So one could argue that it was a regional paper, a local

9 paper.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So I thank you, Mr. Krzic. We are going to have a

11 break of 20, 25 minutes. Now we will resume at five to one, and you will

12 continue your evidence then. I thank you.

13 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

16 The witness, please.

17 A question: Have the notes been photocopied and circulated?

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: No, Your Honour, they have not. We didn't

19 obtain them from the witness yet.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: But that was the agreement. The whole agreement was

21 as soon as he finishes, he hands in the papers, they are photocopied and

22 made available.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: Sorry. I thought it would be at the break today.

24 But he's not going to finish his direct today. But I didn't realise it

25 was at this break. We could have easily have done it. But my mistake.

Page 1453

1 If Your Honour wants, I could actually have them sent out of the

2 courtroom now and photocopied.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it okay with the two Defence teams that we go

4 ahead?

5 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour. It's okay. I was hoping we

6 could have them before we leave today.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: So did I. No. We will make sure that you have them

8 before you leave here today. In other words, at some point in time when

9 the witness finishes his testimony for this morning or for this afternoon,

10 then we will -- we will stop if necessary five minutes earlier, and we

11 will have them photocopied.

12 How many pages are we talking about?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would just like to say that I

14 won't be using these notes today, so that I suggest that you photocopy

15 them tomorrow. And as far as the book is concerned, we have agreed -- we

16 are agreed.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Koumjian, please.


19 Q. Mr. Krzic, I'm directing your attention in the following questions

20 to the period of the indictment in this case, which is from April through

21 December of 1992. And you have indicated that you lived in Banja Luka

22 during that time. And I want to ask you about how various aspects of life

23 were affected -- aspects of life for the non-Serb population within Banja

24 Luka.

25 Sir, were there any restrictions upon the movements of those who

Page 1454

1 were not of Serb nationality in Banja Luka during this time period?

2 A. You are talking about a fairly extensive time period. So some of

3 the things that I will be mentioning here relate to the beginning and some

4 will relate to the end of this period. There were significant changes.

5 Significant changes occurred in the attitude toward the non-Serbian

6 population. Above all, there were psychological changes which were very

7 significant. All of a sudden the non-Serbian population felt like

8 second-class citizens, and very soon a feeling developed that we were

9 slaves or detainees in a concentration camp.

10 So this attitude worsened, this attitude towards the non-Serbian

11 population. The reason for this, severalfold. First of all, the reasons

12 we can cite amount to the terror that was carried out throughout the term,

13 the mass terror that was spread in the town of Banja Luka and which was

14 carried out by official institutions and, of course, by non-official or

15 paramilitary groups. That's the first reason.

16 So some of us whose children had left because the circumstances

17 were such -- they had gone to Sarajevo back in 1991. They went there to

18 study -- because of the psychological pressure, we were very happy they

19 were in Sarajevo, where the risk of mass wounding was far greater -- mass

20 wounding and of being killed was far greater.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the question was: Were there

22 restrictions on the movements of non-Serbs during this period of time?

23 This answer has nothing to do with that question. And I think the witness

24 should be restricted to the questions that are being asked him, rather

25 than making these long narrative statements of anything he feels like

Page 1455

1 talking about.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Objection sustained.

3 Witness, please -- Mr. Krzic, please, you have heard the objection

4 and the terms of that objection with which the Trial Chamber fully

5 agrees. Please restrain yourself to answering the question and nothing

6 but the question. Otherwise, we will go into dialogues, if not

7 monologues, and this could be counter-productive, and it could also

8 disrupt the pattern of questions that the Prosecutor may have prepared for

9 you, as I am sure will be appreciated.

10 Yes.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. I have to

12 admit that this reply came to me. I'll try and answer the question as

13 precisely as I can. Believe me, this was my fault.


15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Krzic. Before we move on, perhaps you could now

16 hand over the notes that you referred to earlier so that I can have

17 someone actually photocopying and have them prepared for counsel before

18 the end of the day. Do you have those notes with you?

19 A. Yes, I do. As I said, I apologise again. These notes really

20 weren't intended for public distribution. I was thinking of copying them

21 out again this evening to make them more legible. I wouldn't want such

22 notes to be handed out because they were written rapidly and the

23 handwriting is not very legible. I wouldn't like to make them public for

24 this reason alone. I have certain professional duties. I'd like to

25 prepare them a bit if I can.

Page 1456












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13 English transcripts.













Page 1457

1 Q. Well, the Court will correct me if I'm wrong, but these are not to

2 be distributed publicly, but counsel for the Defence is entitled to

3 inspect notes that you refer to, and they will respect your privacy. They

4 will use them only for purposes of preparing their cross-examination.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: The position as explained by Mr. Koumjian is

6 precisely the one which will be followed, Mr. Krzic. The thing is that

7 this is a procedural matter that has to be strictly adhered to, especially

8 as things have developed now. I don't think there is an option. These

9 are the documents that you mentioned earlier and to which some reference

10 has, as I understand it, has already been made, and, therefore, I kindly

11 request you to make them available. And all -- I'm sure you're dealing

12 with lawyers here who have a full sense of responsibility, and they will

13 certainly not resort to any abus de confiance.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: I believe the witness is indicating, if I

15 understood his hand gestures, that the very first page that is clipped

16 together is not part of his notes.

17 Q. But all the remaining pages that within the clip are part of your

18 notes that you prepared for this; is that correct?

19 A. Yes. I clipped them together.

20 Q. Going back then to my question, and I'll try to make it more

21 precise for you, regarding the period of the indictment, which is April

22 through December 1992, I understand that that is a long period and for

23 some of the questions you will have to explain changes that took place

24 during this period. I want to go through various aspects of life that

25 were affected for the non-Serb population.

Page 1458

1 The first area of life I'm talking about, I'd like you to respond

2 to, regards restrictions on movements of non-Serbs. Were non-Serbs

3 allowed, permitted to drive their cars, to go about their business in the

4 normal way that they had prior to the conflict after April of 1992?

5 A. Yes. Yes. My specific answer is naturally no. There were

6 various restrictions on movement. First of all, it was not possible to

7 leave the town, except in certain extraordinary circumstances, because the

8 risks of leaving town was increasing. And movement within town was also

9 restricted. Checkpoints were set up, or barricades, as we would say.

10 Very often people were maltreated at these checkpoints. Particular points

11 in the town were isolated by using these checkpoints. These parts of

12 towns were ones in which the majority of the population was Croat and

13 Bosniak.

14 And very soon cars were taken, seized by force. This took place

15 under various pretexts and in various situations in the street. They then

16 started requisitioning cars on a far greater scale, although cars were not

17 requisitioned in all cases. Sometimes it was sufficient to have paid some

18 protector, a Serbian protector, of course, and then you would keep your

19 privileges, but you did not have the right to drive your car through town

20 whenever you wanted to. You could keep it in the garage, and that would

21 later give you the opportunity of travelling to Croatia with your personal

22 belongings.

23 Circulation was restricted in particular in the evening. Soon a

24 curfew was imposed by the authorities, the Crisis Staff in particular and

25 the SDS party too. These restrictions were very clear.

Page 1459

1 In certain cases, the movement of the population was -- the

2 population was almost under house arrest. I could mention a few cases in

3 the cell Abastasi and Malhovljani, and in some occasions in Brozani and

4 Majdan when they didn't have -- before they had to move out. This same

5 situation occurred in other villages.

6 Travelling to other towns was impossible because on frequent

7 occasions people were taken off the buses when they were travelling out of

8 town. They were sent back. They were harassed, beaten, and such

9 passengers were often killed too. Of course the local bus network, coach

10 network provided you with the opportunity of travelling all the time, but

11 you risked being recognised as a Bosniak or a Croat and suffering very

12 awkward experiences as a result.

13 These restrictions became more and more severe as time went by.

14 Q. Did you yourself own an automobile during this period of time?

15 A. I had two cars at the time. I wasn't able to drive either one of

16 them. When I did so for the first time, they came to requisition it

17 immediately.

18 Q. How did you travel around Banja Luka during this period of time?

19 A. I used a bike, a bicycle most often while that was possible, while

20 people were not paying too much attentions to bicyclists, to cyclists.

21 And in very exceptional circumstances - you could count these, the number

22 on your -- on the fingers of your hand - I used a car until the time when

23 they came to confiscate my car for the last time and then I wasn't able to

24 use it any more.

25 I often walked, of course, very often, and sometimes at night. If

Page 1460

1 you asked me where and when, I could specify that too.

2 Q. I want to move on to another area. You mentioned that even in the

3 pre-conflict period the dismissals of jobs once the conflict began in

4 Croatia. During the period of indictment, from April through December

5 1992, did the non-Serb population in the municipality of Banja Luka suffer

6 from job dismissals?

7 A. I think that I have even mentioned that there were successive

8 dismissals. The first people who were dismissed were dismissed, they were

9 made redundant. They were said to be superfluous. But the people who

10 were made redundant for economic reasons were also Croats and Bosnians

11 from various companies. And then they would dismiss you for the simple

12 reason what you are a Bosniak or a Croat. Or maybe that was the third

13 reason. I'm not sure. It doesn't matter. And then the third pretext was

14 that your close family members who were -- close male family members

15 hadn't responded to the call-up.

16 If it wasn't clear that you were loyal to the Serbian authorities,

17 you didn't even dare go to work once the situation had escalated. So it

18 was dangerous to go to work. It depended, naturally, on the profession,

19 on the jobs that you had, but what is interesting that the most important

20 professions for the survival of a population - and this relates to health

21 workers - they were the first to be dismissed.

22 University professors were then dismissed. It was their turn to

23 be dismissed. At first international experts were demoted. They were no

24 longer university lecturers or scientific experts, academic experts. They

25 were assigned posts in the medical centre. Very soon they were not able

Page 1461

1 to do that work either. Doctors were dismissed en masse, up to 25 could

2 be dismissed in one day. I don't have the exact information or the

3 dates. But in one period, over a thousand health workers were dismissed.

4 Not just doctors, but health workers in general. This was the -- this was

5 one of the worst blows to the situation of the population.

6 Then professors at other universities who had other professions

7 were also dismissed. Other doctors from other areas would then replace

8 them. But they were of course of Serbian nationality. And some of them

9 would come to work carrying arms. And you can well imagine whether it was

10 possible for patients to visit a doctor who had a gun on his desk.

11 These dismissals also affected the lowest classes and the highest

12 classes, directors, for example. But they didn't stop just at dismissing

13 people. These people were also forced to do the most menial and the most

14 difficult jobs in the town, and it was publicly made known that the

15 company was being -- was being shut down in Banja Luka because Bosniaks

16 and Croats would be engaged to do this for free. So you could be a

17 director of the greatest company in Banja Luka, and you would end up

18 cleaning the streets.

19 These dismissals started in the police too very soon. First of

20 all, it affected the shifts. And especially in the state security

21 service, replacements took place very quick. People -- the staff were

22 replaced by Serbs. All those who were involved in monitoring foreign

23 services were replaced by Serbs. And the ordinary policemen or

24 technicians who refused to sign a pledge of loyalty, which included going

25 to the front, being sent to the front, these people were replaced

Page 1462

1 immediately. They lost their jobs. So the police too underwent an en

2 masse replacement.

3 We were informed that the situation in the army was similar, and

4 we met many people who were from the army. I'm thinking of officers who

5 had been dismissed because of their ethnic membership. I think that

6 happened in the months of summer. Some were in danger because of this.

7 As I said, I think dismissals first started because some of the teachers

8 wouldn't accept to write in Cyrillic, in the Cyrillic script, and then

9 this affected everyone. Only in exceptional circumstances was it possible

10 for people to retain their jobs. For example, if they had -- if they were

11 in mixed marriages, and the Serbian side was very much present, very

12 strong, in such cases they might not be dismissed. But many of them had

13 to change their names in order to keep their jobs. They had to be

14 re-christened.

15 It was most difficult when we're talking about this -- and this is

16 also a form of dismissal -- when people from villages who lived from their

17 own produce, when they were unable to bring their produce to the Banja

18 Luka market, which used to be very well supplied -- I mention this because

19 it's a different system of supply. So these people would individually

20 place their products on the market in Banja Luka, not in an organised way,

21 and this was now made impossible for them because of the numerous

22 checkpoints surrounding the -- around the city. If a peasant turned up --

23 often they were women, because they were offering dairy products and

24 vegetables. And they were prevented from going to the market and they had

25 to find Serbian friends or to place their product or to sell it for

Page 1463

1 nothing. So they were prevented from doing their work.

2 Timbermen were also prevented from working. It was dangerous to

3 do their work. And except in extraordinary circumstances, when they were

4 allowed to get through because they knew people at the checkpoints, they

5 were prevented from bringing the timber to the market, because we would

6 buy the timber from these woodcutters at the market. At the time, it was

7 used for heating the town. Most of the people in Banja Luka had their own

8 heating systems. So you were unable to go and buy coal, which would be

9 brought in by train. As a Bosniak or Croat, it was impossible to buy

10 coal, so you had to buy wood or timber from individual producers, and you

11 would have to pay Serbian mediators the price that they would ask for.

12 Let's keep to dismissals. But this is also a means of denying

13 people's right to work.

14 Q. Was the judiciary affected by the policy of discriminating on the

15 basis of ethnicity?

16 A. By all means. But I forgot to mention something. There were many

17 veterinarians who were dismissed, regardless of the fact there were not

18 enough Serb veterinarians. One of the local professors was dismissed --

19 was actually forced to resign under pressure exerted over him by his Serb

20 colleagues. I am talking about Dr. Hodzic from the veterinarian institute

21 in Banja Luka.

22 As for the judges, they were all subject to numerous dismissals,

23 and one can say that the Banja Luka municipal court and public

24 prosecutor's office were soon rid of Croats and Bosniaks, except for some

25 very isolated cases. But practically speaking, there were many -- there

Page 1464

1 were very few Bosniaks or Croats left.

2 The same applied to the TV, the radio, and the media in general.

3 Very soon there were no Croat or Serb journalists left, except, once

4 again, for some isolated cases, mostly thanks to mixed marriages or the

5 fact that they were more loyal than it was required. Some of them were

6 given very difficult assignments and sent to the front line. Those were

7 able to keep their jobs to a certain extent. But those were very, very

8 few cases.

9 Q. I just want to clarify one part of your last answer. The

10 transcript as I read it of your answer is you said "Very soon there were

11 no Croat or Serb journalists left." Is that what you intended to say,

12 that Croat and Serbs were dismissed from the media?

13 A. I was referring to Croats and Bosniaks. However, any Serb who

14 attempted to write in a different fashion would also be dismissed. I

15 believe that one or two journalists share the same fate.

16 Q. Let me digress for a moment, because you've raised an issue about

17 Serbs who opposed these policies. Did you, in your activities as the SDA

18 president and as a person who opposed the authorities in power during this

19 time, did you find allies among some members of the Serb population?

20 A. Yes, especially in 1991 and early 1992 when the situation was not

21 so exacerbated that any contact with Serbs was dangerous.

22 When I said a moment ago that some of the Serbs were also

23 dismissed, I was referring to once again mixed marriages. But there were

24 also some, so to speak, silent messages from the Serb community. One

25 could feel that they were opposed to this new type of fascism that was

Page 1465

1 going on but that they felt unable to do anything. Not only in respect of

2 myself but other citizens of Banja Luka. They had the same impression.

3 Some of the Serbs, and I know their names, were aware of the

4 situation and were intelligent enough to realise that it would be

5 dangerous even for them to continue living in this environment and left

6 the town of Banja Luka on time and went abroad where some of them still

7 reside.

8 Some other Serbs offered their fellow citizens some form of

9 protection, including myself, the kind of protection which would have

10 exposed not only myself but them to danger as well. They offered to hide

11 me in their apartments, which was something I couldn't accept because I

12 wanted to remain active and public about my activities. So that was an

13 offer I could not accept.

14 But we received some signals, some messages from the Serb

15 population which one could qualify as being of military or security

16 character.

17 Let me mention an example from my family. We had a very

18 long-standing, friendly relationship with a rather prominent Serb family

19 that lived in the centre of the town, and one of their members, a person

20 the same age as me, met me one day in the street, and when he saw me, he

21 started to cry. He was terribly upset with the situation that his people

22 and the Bosniak people now found themselves in.

23 Q. Going back to another area of life that was affected for the

24 non-Serb population during the conflict. Was the non-Serb population, did

25 their access to medical care, was that affected during the period of

Page 1466

1 indictment, from April through December 1992?

2 A. Yes, but only to a limited extent, to a limited number and in

3 exceptional circumstances. When they were able to reach the hospital, it

4 was through the good offices of some friends or acquaintances, and they

5 were usually requested to conceal their real name. Access to hospital was

6 no longer allowed to Croats and Bosniaks suffering from even most severe

7 illnesses. They no longer enjoyed that right. And even if anyone should

8 have allowed them to be admitted to hospital, they were very concerned

9 because the hospital was a dangerous place because of a number of wounded

10 soldiers that were regularly being admitted to local hospitals.

11 It was the population in general that was seriously affected with

12 these events. And generally speaking, one can say that they had no right

13 to medical protection. And please don't forget that we are talking about

14 public institutions. There were no privately owned medical institutions

15 at the time.

16 Q. Were you aware of a Dr. Vukic?

17 A. Yes, I was.

18 Q. Was Dr. Vukic a prominent member of the SDS in Banja Luka?

19 A. Yes, he was. I think that he was the president for a while.

20 Q. Are you aware of some public statements by Dr. -- excuse me.

21 First, was Dr. Vukic -- is he a medical doctor?

22 A. He was a physician. So not a doctor by virtue of a Ph.D. He was

23 a medical doctor, a specialist, but I'm not sure what kind. Maybe

24 internal medicine, but again, I'm not sure.

25 Q. Are you aware of any statement, public statement, by Dr. Vukic

Page 1467

1 regarding births in hospitals in Banja Luka?

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me. Your Honour, with regard to this

3 witness talking about whether or not he's aware of public statements, I

4 object to that kind of a question being asked without some kind of prior

5 foundation being laid, and that is: How is he aware of a public

6 statement? Did he hear it himself, or did he hear it from someone else

7 who heard it, or did he hear it from someone else who claimed to have

8 heard it from someone else who claimed to have heard it from someone

9 else?

10 This Chamber must have some basis upon which to judge the

11 reliability of what this witness claims to have heard and whether it came

12 from a source that the Trial Chamber might be able to decide is reliable

13 or unreliable. But I think for him to just start talking about things he

14 heard, you're going to be subjected to a lot of rumour and innuendo and

15 things of that nature.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose you have heard the question. The question

17 was whether he is aware of any speech that may have been made by Dr. Vukic

18 on a particular subject. Before we can go on all the other matters that

19 you mentioned, he has to answer that question first. Because if he is not

20 aware, obviously all the rest doesn't come into play. If he is aware,

21 then obviously we are going to ask him, or the Prosecution has taken the

22 hint and will ask the witness to say how he's become aware of this

23 speech.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, judging by the way he's answered questions

25 so far, he's going to go way beyond "yes." He's going to start into one

Page 1468

1 of these dialogues.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, let me conduct the proceedings,

3 because after 25 years as a Judge, I have learned to distinguish between

4 one witness and another, witnesses that are worth stopping, lawyers that

5 are worth interrupting. So let -- I can assure you that we will finish

6 earlier if we continue going this way.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Judge.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Koumjian, please. Well, I don't think you

9 need to repeat the question. Mr. Krzic has heard it.

10 Could you please go ahead and give us your answer?

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, perhaps the record should reflect that

12 during the dialogue between Your Honour and Defence counsel, Mr. Krzic

13 appears to have referred to his book and to be searching through his book.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that correct, Mr. Krzic? You have every right to

15 do that. I mean, no one is criticising you. It's just for record

16 purposes and because you have a Prosecutor who is definitely searching to

17 be loyal to his counterparts on the Defence and also with the Trial

18 Chamber, something which is appreciated.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I realise that my

20 testimony here is of a rather comprehensive nature and that trying to

21 respond to questions such as this, I simply have to consult my book.

22 One other thing, I do understand English, and I have followed the

23 counsel for Defence, and I have in the meantime prepared my answer in

24 light of that. And that is the reason I wanted to check this piece of

25 information in my book, because I understood the objection.

Page 1469

1 Second, I should like my notes to be given back to me, because

2 it's very difficult for me to work without them. However, I am prepared

3 to provide a response to the question that has just been asked.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: So please go ahead and give us your answer, please.

5 Yes. As the president of the SDS or permanent member of the Executive

6 Council thereof, Dr. Vukic made some public statements which encroached

7 upon -- or rather, which were tainted with anti-semetic and international

8 aspects. I am going to tell you only three examples, because I haven't

9 had enough time to consult my notes.

10 Dr. Vukic had an interview on the radio, Sarajevo-aired radio,

11 together with Mr. Hadzialijagic. The reason I wanted to refer to my notes

12 is because I think the time frame is rather important. He spoke in a very

13 rude manner, disrespective manner, about Bosniak -- rather, Muslim women.

14 He insulted publicly their honour and made some very explicit threats

15 which were addressed to Turks in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Now, when I say

16 "Turks," I'm talking about a very derogatory term for the Muslim

17 community in Bosnia and Herzegovina, a derogatory term which has nothing

18 to do with the reality of their background. However, it is a very

19 offensive term for Bosniaks in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the fact that

20 he said that publicly on TV as the president of the SDS party can only be

21 interpreted as a direct physical threat to that segment of the

22 population.

23 We replied to this statement. We quoted his words, and I believe

24 that I also wrote an article which was published in the media.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Koumjian, I have to draw your attention

Page 1470

1 that we have already overstepped the time allotted --

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: I believe --

3 JUDGE AGIUS: -- to this Trial Chamber. So if it is convenient

4 for you to stop your direct examination now, we will do it. If you have

5 not more than one, two short questions, then we can proceed. But I can't

6 guarantee a short answer to those, so I would suggest with your indulgence

7 to stop here, and we'll resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.

8 It's understood the witness will remain in the same condition he

9 is now, which is as a witness and with all that it entails, and that

10 tomorrow morning he's expected to be here present so that you can proceed

11 with your examination-in-chief.

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: And Your Honour, we do have copies of the --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: I want to check with the witness, because I see

15 that the first page is copied with what appears to be a phone number. And

16 if I can just show that to him. I don't believe he wanted this page to be

17 distributed.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Check it with him.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: We can do that after the Court adjourns.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So the Court raises now, and we will resume

21 our work tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of

24 February, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.