1 Tuesday, 5 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Can you call the case.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

9 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: The usual routine, every morning.

11 Mr. Brdjanin, can you hear me in a language that you can

12 understand?

13 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

14 I can hear you and I can understand you.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And General Talic, can you hear me in a language

16 that you can understand?

17 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I can hear

18 you and I understand.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you too.

20 Appearances for the Prosecution.

21 MR. CAYLEY: May it please, Your Honours. Good morning. My name

22 is Cayley. I appear with my co-counsel Nicholas Koumjian on behalf of the

23 Prosecution. Our case manager today is Ruth Karper. Thank you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Cayley and Co.

25 And for Mr. Brdjanin?

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.

2 I'm here with Ms. Tania Radosavljevic and Milka Maglov, my co-counsel.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

4 For General Talic?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone.

7 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Xavier de Roux, attorney at law.

8 I'm assisted by Ms. Natasha Fauveau and Mr. Fabien Masson.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Merci.

10 So before we start, you know that tomorrow you have this informal

11 meeting between you, which will be chaired by the SLO, the senior legal

12 officer, Mr. Von Hebel. I don't need to remind you what it is all about,

13 because this was more or less agreed upon in the beginning. But we're

14 talking -- we will be discussing organisational matters relating to the

15 Banja Luka chapter of this case.

16 This meeting has been set for tomorrow, as I already told you and

17 as you already know, and it will be held downstairs just behind or in

18 front of Courtroom I in room 177. I suppose you are familiar with this

19 room, room 177. As soon as you come out of Courtroom I, this is a room

20 which buffers -- is in the buffer zone between the courtroom and the

21 Judge's chambers. So you shouldn't find it too difficult to locate. It's

22 at the end of the corridor which leads to then the staircase which brings

23 you up to this one.

24 The meeting is at 2.15, at 2.15, in other words, half an hour

25 after we finish hearing here, and it's expected to last for about two

1 hours. Obviously it will last less if the whole procedure is speeded up.

2 And I understand also that there has been some consultation going

3 on in the past days or weeks, as a result of which it's agreed that

4 basically this is not a formal meeting but an informal meeting, and it

5 will be certainly no disrespect for the beautiful French language, but

6 this will be held in English, and there are no arrangements for

7 interpretation. Okay? So that is the position.

8 I'll move to the next stage. Does any of the counsel wish to

9 raise any matter before we proceed with the evidence of Mr. Krzic?

10 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: There seems to be some confusion or disagreement

12 about our future sitting schedule, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, tell me.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: I had understood --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't have the schedule here with me, but I was

16 looking through it yesterday, through June.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'm only concerned about next week. I had

18 understood, when we discussed this matter many, many days ago, that we

19 would not be sitting on the 11th, 12th and 13th. This courtroom schedule

20 indicates that we are sitting on the 13th, which is, I don't think, the

21 case.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you had told me that you will do your best

23 to fly back on the 12th.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, I did.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I remember that very vividly.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, and then after that, I believe, Your Honour,

2 you said, "Well, we'll take the 13th in any event, to give you an

3 opportunity to then spend some preparation time once you return," but I

4 will do whatever you ask me to do.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, I keep my word. I come from an area

6 of the world where our word is our bond. So I will have the Registrar

7 check the transcript of when we actually -- I think it was either the

8 second day or the last day of the Pre-Trial Conference when we discussed

9 this. I remember that we -- when we had organised the schedule for

10 February and March, right through the 4th of April. Perhaps you could --

11 I do -- I do have a suspicion that Mr. Ackerman may be right. I'm not 100

12 per cent sure that you are right. I remember -- the only thing that I

13 remember for sure is that you had told us that you will do your best to

14 come back on the 12th.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: I definitely said that, but I'm old, as you know,

16 and so I --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: We both are, Mr. Ackerman. So we remember a part

18 and forget the rest. So I will definitely check, and I will come back to

19 you on this at some later point in time during this morning's sitting.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: Then I also understand that Friday of next week is

21 a court maintenance day or something like that and we will not be sitting

22 then.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, which I was not aware of at the time, but if

24 you mean by that that you're going to suggest that we also don't sit on

25 the 14th, you're mistaken.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: No. I just want to know when we are going to be

2 sitting so I can be here.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: For the time being, according to the schedule, we

4 are resuming on the 13th. But you may be right. You may be right. I

5 will have that checked.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we have to start on the 13th. You have to

8 make a big sacrifice, leave beautiful Sarajevo or wherever you're going to

9 be and come back on the 12th.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: That's all right, I will just leave early. That's

11 no problem.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. But I will check just the same.

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Where I had given the extra day was, I think, either

15 beginning of March, the first day when we will be stopping, March the 22nd

16 or the 21st, or the 4th of April. That's where I superadded a day, I

17 think, if I remember well, because obviously this was not that much

18 important of -- of that much importance to me. Yes, anything else,

19 Mr. Ackerman.

20 MR. ACKERMAN: I just want Your Honours to understand that I'm not

21 asking for anything but information.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I appreciate that. I mean, I certainly have no

23 reason to complain about anything or the way you have been behaving or

24 conducting your case here.

25 Yes, Mr. Cayley?

1 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Just a small point,

2 whether we need to bring another witness for next week. I understand from

3 my colleague, Mr. Koumjian, that he will take the rest of today to finish

4 the examination-in-chief. The cross-examination may commence tomorrow.

5 It seems we may only have a day next week. As you can understand, we are

6 rather like air traffic controllers with aircraft backed up all the way to

7 Sarajevo, and the difficulty is if we bring somebody in next week, it

8 means that they are then either -- they are going to have to be here for a

9 day, then fly back, and then be brought back the next week. Now, we can

10 put Mr. Inayat on to deal with the Banja Luka documents but we may run

11 short of witnesses unless you -- you can, of course, require me to bring a

12 witness, and I will, but it can be problematic.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine it would be problematic, and I have

14 been seriously thinking about that because I realise basically next week

15 we will only have two days. And basing myself on yesterday's evidence, I

16 have my serious doubts as to how much we are going to manage, succeed, in

17 finishing the testimony of this witness this week. I seriously have

18 doubts. Perhaps at this point, before I think further and discuss it with

19 my colleagues and come back to you, perhaps Mr. -- basing yourself on

20 what you heard yesterday, which should -- you are senior lawyers with a

21 lot of experience behind you. What you heard yesterday should more or

22 less give you an idea of what kind of a cross-examination you require to

23 make and how long you anticipate this cross-examination to last. You were

24 very specific and very precise in the case of the previous witness,

25 Dr. Donia. So more or less, if you are in a position to help us, that

1 would put us in a better position to direct the Prosecution as to what is

2 expected from them next week.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm perfectly willing to share with the Chamber

4 everything I know in that regard. Bear in mind that depending on an

5 answer to a question, I may cut 15 minutes out of the process or add 15,

6 so it's a little difficult, but my guess is that I will be all day

7 tomorrow and one hour the next sitting in the cross-examination. That's

8 my best guess, and I think it will probably come pretty close to that, but

9 it could go much longer, depending on a lot of things, including how long

10 the witness decides he has to answer the questions.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I personally anticipate that this kind of witness

12 and his evidence will have, as a reaction, quite a lengthy

13 cross-examination, to be frank with you.

14 Mr. de Roux?

15 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Mr. President, after what I heard

16 yesterday and what we have heard today, that hearing will be necessary to

17 examine the witness.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: That means you require one day?

19 MR. DE ROUX: One day.

20 MR. CAYLEY: So, Mr. President, potentially, if Mr. Ackerman is

21 going to be here on Wednesday, we then have a day, or slightly less than a

22 day, if we are going to sit for two days next week.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: We will definitely sit for two days next week;

24 that's for sure. The thing is this: While the witness is not here -- I

25 mean, you noticed yesterday that I did interfere as little as possible

1 because I gathered at the time that this witness, you know, I mean, has

2 his own way of answering questions, and each time we stopped him, he

3 co-operated. But within a minute, he was again unfolding a whole story.

4 He is your witness, and I appreciate that in the course of his

5 testimony you did try to bring him to order. He's not an easy witness, so

6 I mean, I would suggest that you do it carefully. But I would appreciate

7 rather than we doing it, I would rather you did.

8 I will tell him when we start today that it is desirable that he

9 answers the question and nothing but the question. On the other hand, I

10 would suggest to you, Mr. Koumjian, in particular, because I understand

11 you will be conducting the examination-in-chief, that at any time you are

12 satisfied that he has given you or provided you with the answer that you

13 were expecting or that he could give you, you would interrupt him yourself

14 and tell him that he said enough on that particular subject -- topic and

15 that you would like to move to the next question. I'm asking you to do

16 this because the Chamber itself will feel much more comfortable if you do

17 it than if it had to do it. Our reasons are -- the reasons are obvious.

18 If we do it, we would be interrupting you. If you do it, you would

19 certainly not be interrupting the Chamber and you would be helping the

20 Chamber. And so that, I think, I'm speaking in a language that definitely

21 you understand. Okay?

22 So at this point, I think we could call in -- yes, Mr. Cayley.

23 MR. CAYLEY: Could we just essentially wait to make a decision on

24 whether or not --

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think so. I think so. In any case, I mean,

1 it's not a decision that needs to be taken at twenty past 9.00 today. It

2 could wait another hour or two. More or less, you know, I mean, we'll see

3 how it goes. Because yesterday's testimony could have been considerably

4 shorter. But things happen.

5 So could you bring in the witness, please.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Krzic. Thank you for coming again

8 this morning. You will be given the same paper that was handed to you

9 yesterday, on which there is the solemn declaration that you are kindly

10 asked to read out.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 WITNESS: MUHAREM KRZIC [Resumed]

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: You may sit down, thank you.

16 And Mr. Koumjian from the Prosecution will be resuming his

17 examination-in-chief in you. Thank you.

18 Examined by Mr. Koumjian: [Continued]

19 Q. Mr. Krzic, good morning. We have a lot of material we hope to

20 cover today. And in the interests of moving the trial along and finishing

21 your testimony so you can get on with your own business, I'd encourage you

22 to give short direct answers to the questions. If I need further details,

23 I will request them of you, and we'll try to move your testimony along as

24 expeditiously as possible.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Before you start, actually, Mr. Krzic, I

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1 mean -- can you hear me? Can you hear me?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I can hear you.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: The Trial Chamber also would like to suggest to you

4 that when you are asked a question, you answer that question, the whole

5 question, and nothing but that question. It would help the Trial Chamber

6 to address the issues that are involved in that question more precisely,

7 because when you answer the question involving other topics and other

8 events, et cetera, more than -- rather than helping the Trial Chamber, you

9 would be confusing the Trial Chamber. So please try to answer the

10 question, the whole question, and nothing but the question. Thank you.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: May I ask the Court for permission to suggest the

12 following procedure:

13 Mr. Krzic, sir, if you could when you are answering the questions

14 if you could look at me, and when I feel that the answer is complete, I

15 will give you a signal. That way I won't be interrupting the

16 interpretation or interrupting you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think that's a good idea, Mr. Koumjian.

18 MR. KOUMJIAN:

19 Q. Mr. Krzic, were you aware -- in Banja Luka in 1992, did you hear

20 the sound of explosions at night?

21 A. Yes, every night.

22 Q. Did you become aware of the cause or the locations where these --

23 excuse me. Did you become aware subsequently after hearing the explosions

24 of the locations of what kinds of places were bombed or where explosives

25 had been set off?

1 A. Yes. In most of the cases, I would learn that the next day.

2 Q. And what kinds of places or establishments were bombed?

3 A. It began with shops and business premises or local companies owned

4 by non-Serbs. Targeted at the beginning were also various catering

5 businesses, various cafes and restaurants, and then the houses. As for

6 the houses and buildings within the city, in the town, I would receive the

7 information the next day. However, in cases of villages, I would become

8 aware of that only subsequently.

9 Q. Within the city of Banja Luka, did you become aware of the

10 nationality of the owners of those you mentioned catering businesses and

11 homes that were bombed?

12 A. Yes, I would become aware of that right away.

13 Q. What was the nationality of those owners who were the victims of

14 these bombings?

15 A. Speaking of the urban area, usually those facilities belonged to

16 Muslims and Croats. As for the suburban area and outskirts of the town,

17 usually the owners would be members of the Croat community. However,

18 later there were cases of Serb-owned shops to become targets of such

19 attacks, which we interpreted as conflicts between different fractions,

20 either politically speaking or between different criminal groups.

21 Q. At some point in time, did the bombings stop and other types of

22 abuses against owners of buildings begin?

23 A. Yes. I cannot remember exactly right now. I would have to

24 consult my notes. But that would take up too much time. The information

25 as to when these changes occurred, I believe that it was at the time when

1 the first soldiers started coming back from the front line in Croatia.

2 The representatives of the SDS at that time publicly announced that all

3 the shops and business premises owned by non-Serbs would be transferred to

4 those returnees, if I might call them that way, as a sign of appreciation

5 for what they had done during the war in Croatia.

6 Q. So when the bombings stopped, did confiscation of businesses and

7 apartments begin?

8 A. Yes. However, the shelling, the bombings themselves, did not stop

9 altogether. They were just less intensive. And the targets changed.

10 This time it was local homes and houses. The purpose was to force the

11 residents of those houses to leave. And those houses were not simply

12 bombed with hand grenades, all various kinds of hand-held rocket launchers

13 were used, such as the rifle-launched grenades, for example.

14 Q. If I could just before I ask my next question, thank you for

15 responding so well to the questions. I think the testimony will go much

16 quicker in this manner.

17 Sir, were you aware of an airplane that dropped something over

18 Banja Luka during 1992, during the indictment period, that is after April

19 of 1992?

20 A. Yes, I was. I saw it with my own eyes.

21 Q. Did you -- what was it that was dropped from the planes?

22 A. Dropped leaflets which contained threats and requests that

23 non-Serbs not -- that -- for non-Serbs to move out of Banja Luka.

24 Q. Do you recall whether you obtained one of these leaflets and gave

25 it to an international person?

1 A. I remember that we received such leaflets or posters. Children

2 would gather them because there were planes circling in a visible manner.

3 They made several circles above Banja Luka. And as far as I can remember,

4 we kept such a poster in our party, and I think, as far as I can remember,

5 that it was a -- handed over to international organisations.

6 Q. To the best of your recollection, what did the posters or leaflets

7 say?

8 A. I really could not repeat that now. I just know that it contained

9 threats, and that it asked for people to move out of that area, which was

10 supposed to be just for non-Serbs -- just for Serbs.

11 Q. So would it be correct that the threats -- well, who were the

12 threats directed against?

13 A. The threats were directed against the non-Serbian population, but

14 it never said "non-Serbians;" it always said "Croats and Bosniaks," that

15 is to say Muslims.

16 Q. During the indictment period, which I will say now but not keep

17 repeating, that is from April through the end of 1992, were you aware of

18 efforts or incidents where non-Serbs were required to sign over their

19 property within Banja Luka?

20 A. Yes, of course. There were such incidents too, but they were

21 mostly incidents which involved them signing statements saying that they

22 were voluntarily leaving Banja Luka. I know of several cases, they had to

23 accept formal exchanges without checking -- without being able to verify

24 whether the buildings involved in such exchanges existed on the other

25 side. I could mention the names of some such people.

1 Q. I don't think it's necessary to mention the names, but just so the

2 Trial Chamber understands, are you talking about exchanges of apartments

3 or residences from Banja Luka to Croatia, for example?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you know if a formal agency was set up by the authorities in

6 Banja Luka during the indictment period to facilitate these exchanges?

7 A. Yes. The representatives of this agency even visited myself and

8 my family to ask for an exchange, to carry out an exchange.

9 Q. Do you know if this agency was set up by the authorities in Banja

10 Luka?

11 A. At the time, they represented themselves, they said it was the SDS

12 party that was operating and in their -- later on, in 1993, that agency

13 changed the name to the Bureau for Moving Away, and it was officially

14 registered in the Serbian entity.

15 Q. What was the nationality of the people that were asked to exchange

16 their apartments and leave Banja Luka?

17 A. They were of Serbian nationality, of Serbian nationality alone.

18 Q. The people that were asked to leave Banja Luka were of Serbian

19 nationality? Did I understand your answer correctly?

20 A. No. They were only Croats and Bosniaks.

21 Q. During the indictment period, Mr. Krzic, were you aware of a

22 vehicle known as the red Kombi, or vehicles?

23 A. Yes. In one case, I even made a note of the number plate, if that

24 is of any importance.

25 Q. Did you hear stories, in other words did you hear accounts, from

1 other people you knew, non-Serbs, about the activities of these red

2 Kombis? And if so, what did you hear about them?

3 A. There were numerous stories.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: I object to testimony about what he heard, unless

5 we are provided with the source where he heard it from.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: What do you have to say about that?

7 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, that is a question Mr. Ackerman is

8 welcome to ask in cross-examination. I understand that the source is

9 something that the Trial Chamber will consider in deciding what weight to

10 give to testimony and second-hand accounts. This clearly is a second-hand

11 account. In many cases, I think the witness is probably -- I'm asking the

12 witness about things that he heard over and over again from many people,

13 so he may not be able to name sources, but he may be able to give that

14 answer. Again, I think it goes to the weight. I will try to make it as

15 clear as possible what the sources are in my follow-up questions, and I

16 think that Defence counsel can also do that in their cross-examination.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, I think I have to overrule your

19 objection. The way the question has been put - and I have read it again

20 on my monitor - does not amount to the hearsay evidence that you are

21 referring to, because the question is a very simple one, that is whether

22 the witness himself did hear stories about this red Kombi car and related

23 events. He is not being asked to relate what he was told. He is being

24 asked for the moment to state whether he was given information about the

25 activities surrounding this red Kombi. Am I correct?

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: So you can proceed with the question and the witness

3 is kindly asked to answer it. Thank you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I heard about it. I know the

5 names of people who had personal experience of this, such as myself.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN:

7 Q. Just to clarify one thing, you heard accounts from other people

8 that you knew. Were these personal acquaintances and friends of yours who

9 were non-Serbs?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Did you yourself ever see this red Kombi at one of your

12 acquaintances' residences or outside the residence?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you mentioned a personal experience that you had. Did this

15 experience corroborate the information that you received from your

16 acquaintances about the activities of the red Kombi? In other words, was

17 it consistent with what you had heard about it?

18 A. Yes. It was completely consistent.

19 Q. Just to clarify something, your personal experience happened in

20 1993 and not during the indictment period, correct?

21 A. Yes. But I'm not just talking about my personal experience. I'm

22 talking about my personal experience and the experience of my immediate

23 neighbours, so that it's also personal but it's also the experience of

24 other people.

25 Q. In what were -- were these red vehicles feared by non-Serbs within

1 Banja Luka?

2 A. Yes, of course. We used to call these vans mobile torture

3 chambers.

4 Q. I'm going to move on to another topic. Were you aware, Mr. Krzic,

5 during the indictment period, of trains passing through Banja Luka

6 carrying non-Serbs out of the region?

7 A. Yes. I am. And I've had personal experience of this too.

8 Q. The personal experience that you're speaking of -- I see you

9 referring to your notes, and that's fine, but perhaps when you find your

10 notes, you could tell us. I don't know if your notes are numbered by

11 pages, but you can tell us the first words on the page perhaps, if counsel

12 wants to follow. But actually, first, Mr. Krzic, I think you probably can

13 answer my question without the notes. Why don't you try without and then

14 we'll see if you need to refer to them. I don't need a specific date.

15 A. Agree. So when we were first informed there was a train at the

16 train station in Banja Luka which contained displaced persons, expelled

17 persons, who were being sent in an unknown direction, a group of

18 responsible people who represented the Bosniaks gathered, and we went to

19 the train -- we drove to the train station. We went there in two cars. I

20 myself approached this train at a distance of about five to six metres.

21 It was on the third platform. Mostly these were second-class

22 compartments. They had wooden benches and windows. And there were some

23 compartments for livestock. Their doors were closed. There were only

24 small windows at the top of the compartments. Would you like me to carry

25 on with these clarifications?

1 Q. Approximately how many cars were in that train, how many separate

2 railroad cars?

3 A. No less than 15, but I don't think it had more than 30.

4 Q. What happened after you got to the station and saw the train?

5 A. My colleagues stayed very near the platform, which was as long as

6 the train station building itself. We came from the left side. We parked

7 our car in front of the building, approached, and looked at the train. We

8 noticed that there was a military unit by the train, wearing camouflage

9 uniform. They were -- there were intervals of about 15 or ten metres

10 between groups of these men.

11 I decided, in spite of the objections of my friends, to approach

12 the train, and at that point, I saw the faces in the windows of the

13 train. They were desperate. You could see fear in their faces. There

14 were women. I can't exactly remember whether I saw children there, but I

15 heard children crying inside. In the last car, which was for livestock, I

16 saw hands protruding from these cars, but I didn't see any faces. It was

17 a small window at the top with bars.

18 Q. The hands that you saw coming from the train that was normally for

19 livestock, were those human hands?

20 A. Yes, of course.

21 Q. After you saw the people, what did you do?

22 A. I wanted to ask them something, but a soldier approached me very

23 rapidly and he said something, he threatened me, so I wasn't able to ask

24 anything. I didn't find out where they were from, but an old man spoke to

25 me from the window, he said, "If only you knew the terrible things they

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1 have been doing to us." The soldier made me leave. They were shouting,

2 "We are thirsty. We want water."

3 Q. Who was shouting? Just to make it clear, who was asking for

4 water?

5 A. The people, the women from that car next to which I was standing,

6 were asking for water.

7 Q. What did you do then?

8 A. I returned. I acted automatically, reflexively. I returned to

9 the station, to the platform, in spite of my friends' objections, who were

10 standing by the side. I automatically headed towards the toilet. I knew

11 it was there at the train station, and it was at the end of the platform.

12 A cleaning lady appeared there. She was wearing a blue coat. I asked her

13 for a pail of water and she filled the pail up with the intention of

14 giving it to the people in the cars. She started moving towards the

15 train, but a soldier hit her, hit her leg, she fell and the water was

16 spilt. He turned to me and started threatening me. And I and the entire

17 group, all my men, we simply left the train station very urgently, very

18 rapidly.

19 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I have a document I'd like now to show

20 to the witness and distribute to the Trial Chamber.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour I have a document now which I'd like to

23 distribute. It's titled, "Party of Democratic Action, Banja Luka," dated

24 the 30th of September, 1992. And it's been pre-marked as P449A. That's

25 the exhibit number for this Trial Chamber. And it's addressed to the

1 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, mission team, United Nations, in New

2 York.

3 Q. Mr. Krzic, do you recognise this document? Have you seen it

4 before?

5 A. Although it is English, I can recognise it.

6 Q. Do you know who wrote this document?

7 A. I wrote the document.

8 Q. And does this document describe in it the experience that you just

9 told us about regarding the train that you saw in Banja Luka?

10 A. Yes. Yes, it is contained here too.

11 Q. And I'm referring to the second page, labelled page 40 at the

12 bottom, the first paragraph. Is that the -- describe the incident that

13 you just testified about, or is this a separate incident?

14 A. The event that I have just described to you is described in

15 greater detail -- far greater detail in my book on page 114. I went into

16 details there and describe what happened after that. And as far as the

17 23rd, 24th, and 25th is concerned, this concerns the cars that were at the

18 train station and had obviously been prepared to receive new masses of

19 expelled persons.

20 Q. Can you check your book for the date of the train that you saw.

21 And I want to see whether this is the same incident or a separate

22 incident.

23 A. Two different events are in question. On the 4th of June, that

24 was when this transport occurred. This is when I came to the train

25 station with my representatives, with my collaborators. And I have

1 mentioned this on page 114 in my book. We mentioned this train -- I

2 mentioned this train to Mufti Halilovic that very same even and

3 Bishop Komarica. The document that you have showed me on page 40, the

4 incident concerns other dates, other dates are involved. As it says here,

5 the 23rd, the 24th, and the 25th. So this happened later.

6 Q. So in addition to the train that you saw, did you hear about other

7 trains of deportees passing through Banja Luka?

8 A. Of course. And that's an example that you have informed me of in

9 this document.

10 Q. Just to clarify, then, the incident that you described involving

11 the woman who tried to bring the pail of water to the train happened in

12 June of 1992. And that was the only time that you personally saw the

13 train's deportees; is that correct?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Do you recall where you learned the information that's contained

16 in the document that I just showed you concerning the trains in September?

17 A. Directly from the train station.

18 Q. Did you have informants at the train station that told you

19 about -- informed you about such matters?

20 A. Not just me but another two persons, because it was hard to get in

21 contact with me directly.

22 Q. So in other words, you -- there were informants at the train

23 station that would inform either you or two of your associates about

24 trains full of expelled people passing through that train station; is that

25 correct?

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Mr. Krzic, did you receive information about events that were

3 taking place outside of the city of Banja Luka and, in fact, information

4 about events taking place in other municipalities in the Bosnian Krajina?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 Q. At one point --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, one moment.

8 Mr. de Roux, yes, please.

9 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like to raise

10 an objection, because I think that the witness should give testimony

11 regarding the sources and not on hearsay, not on things that we don't know

12 where he got the information from. We're talking about information for

13 which we have no sources, no evident sources.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Again, I don't think I need your response to that.

15 No. Mr. de Roux, I don't think you are grasping the real import

16 of the question. The question is more or less to establish whether the

17 witness had a system of receiving information. The previous question

18 was: Did you have informers at the train station? The next question is:

19 Did you have informers here, there, as to what was happening? I mean,

20 given the position that he occupied and the political involvement of the

21 witness in the circumstances, he's obviously being asked this question to

22 see -- to establish the then-reliability of the information that he

23 himself can furnish. So at this present moment, the question is quite

24 acceptable as it is.

25 Of course, I mean, if he's going to repeat what others told him,

1 then he may or may not be stopped, depending on what the information is,

2 because that would amount to hearsay, although the rule, as I explained on

3 a previous occasion, is not absolute. But this question is definitely --

4 he's not being asked a question which would amount to hearsay evidence.

5 He's being asked whether he was receiving almost on a constant basis

6 information from others as to what was happening in the region, in the

7 area, with regard to specific activities.

8 So you can go ahead with the question.

9 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, while we have an interruption, I want

11 to raise another matter. I raised it yesterday. I now must raise it

12 again. The witness a few moments ago referred to his book again.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Page 114. The translation that we've been given of

15 portions of that book --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Starts on page 1, and ends at page 81.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: And I can't tell what came from page 114 --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I know. I am in the same quandary. I suppose my

19 colleagues have the same problem as you are. It being just one instance

20 that he has referred to the book, I was not going to raise it

21 immediately. But at some point in time I was going to ask the witness to

22 have a look at this English translation or at least the Prosecutor to

23 indicate on this document where this reference is to be found. I quite

24 agree with you, Mr. Ackerman. We are exactly on the same wavelength.

25 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And I suppose you got the message, Mr. Koumjian? I

2 mean, I don't have his book -- we don't have his book in front of us. We

3 have an English translation of a part of it, with no cross-reference to

4 the page structure of the original. So we do have a problem that

5 Mr. Ackerman has rightly pointed out.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: I understand. I know that somewhere in the English

7 translation -- I've marked that section --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: For the moment you can go ahead, and then you can

9 tell us later.

10 MR. KOUMJIAN: At the break, if the witness could remain one

11 moment, we can confirm the page and the translation he was referring to.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: You can proceed.

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: Okay.

14 Q. Mr. Krzic, did you receive information, in particular, a document,

15 from the SDA president of Celinac municipality?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I have a document that's labelled

18 "Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, County of Celinac, War

19 Presidency," dated the 23rd of July, 1992. This document is marked in the

20 English translation -- pre-marked Exhibit P450A, and the original B/C/S

21 version is marked P450B. I'd ask this to be distributed.

22 I have a second exhibit. Perhaps I'll distribute it at the same

23 time. It's marked -- it's labelled "Personal Testimony." The date of the

24 document appears to be the 7th of August, 1992. And it is marked in the

25 English translation P451A and in the B/C/S version P451B.

1 In addition to the title "Personal Testimony," it is entitled

2 "Report of the Misdeeds of the Chetniks carried out in the local of

3 Sanica Kljuc County."

4 Q. Mr. Krzic, did you also receive information simply from

5 individuals without -- who did not have a political title from

6 municipalities outside of Banja Luka?

7 A. Yes, mostly.

8 Q. I'm showing you first -- I think you have before you 450A. That's

9 the Celinac document. Do you not have it? Perhaps I can just hand you my

10 copy.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Sir, do you recognise this as what was given to you by the

13 president of the SDA in Celinac?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. What was indicated to you when this was given to you, as far as

16 what it was? What did they tell you?

17 A. The document was a definitive confirmation of the status of the

18 non-Serb population in Celinac. The status in this case can be described

19 as a status of slave.

20 Q. The person that gave you that document, is he one of the

21 individuals who is listed in article 2 of the document?

22 A. Yes. It is under number 21.

23 Q. I don't know if you have in front of you - I'll hand you now - the

24 second document, which is -- "Personal testimony regarding misdeeds of the

25 Chetniks carried out in the Kljuc municipality" is the title.

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I want to object --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: -- to this document. It does not -- the name of

4 the person who authored it is not even contained in it. It includes a

5 detailed description of some things that allegedly happened at a certain

6 time and place. It's the rankest form of hearsay. I don't know how I

7 could ever cross-examine anyone about it because we can't even know who

8 the author is. And it's a perfect way, it seems to me, for someone to

9 throw stuff into this case that can't -- in the largest stretch of the

10 imagination, could not be classified as evidence.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Koumjian, what do you mean to say about

12 that?

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, the document clearly is hearsay, which

14 is not prohibited by our Rules.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: No, it's not prohibited, but it also says "personal

16 testimony." Testimony of whom?

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: The witness can explain who it was that gave him

18 that document.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: But what is this document? Perhaps before we ask

20 the witness - if we ask the witness - you could enlighten the Chamber as

21 to what is this document.

22 MR. KOUMJIAN: This document is a document written by someone from

23 the municipality who went and wrote about experiences that were happening

24 to non-Serbs in Kljuc, handed that testimony or this account of the

25 experiences to Mr. Krzic to get this word to the outside world, and which

1 he passed on to the outside world. It's one of many documents, and I'm

2 only offering it as an example - I'm not going to put all of the documents

3 in - of clearly second-hand information that Mr. Krzic received and passed

4 on to the outside world. This explains part of his role and his efforts

5 to get the word out. It also is relevant because -- and I don't know if I

6 should be saying this in front of the witness.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: As long as this document is not being exhibited, or

8 as long as you do not intend to exhibit this document to prove the

9 contents thereof, it will be admitted. If, in -- if instead, you are

10 going to use this document as an evidence of the events mentioned therein,

11 then obviously it cannot be admitted, because to all intents and purposes,

12 it is a document which is anonymous, purportedly drafted by a

13 self-proclaimed group of refugee citizens from Sanica, and unless

14 information is at least forthcoming which would make it possible for the

15 Defence to verify these -- the reliability of these documents, and also

16 cross-examine the persons who may have furnished the information to the

17 witness, you will understand that this Chamber cannot admit it. So that

18 is the position.

19 If the only purpose of this document is to prove that Mr. Krzic,

20 the witness, was receiving information from persons, identified or

21 non-identified, as to events that were reported to him, then it's okay.

22 But that is the only extent to which this Chamber will admit that

23 document. Otherwise, it is, as I said, an anonymous declaration of events

24 which cannot be proved by this document.

25 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, Your Honour. I would just like to

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1 assure the Court that for all the specific incidents charged in this

2 indictment, the Prosecution will present first-hand testimony from people

3 who witnessed those events. But I would also just point out - and I

4 perfectly accept Your Honour's ruling and understand it - that another

5 aspect of this case that we are trying to prove in regards to Banja Luka

6 and the other municipalities is the atmosphere of terror which was created

7 sometimes not just by a direct experience but from second-hand information

8 of what was going on around people that forced people to abandon their

9 homes and leave.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: You are perfectly right, Mr. Koumjian. However, you

11 have to understand, I think, that this document can only serve one

12 purpose; in other words, that Mr. Krzic was being kept informed by several

13 persons. He was sort of a key person to whom people were referring

14 information. However, it remains -- it starts and remains a document

15 which, to all intents and purposes, is an anonymous document, and

16 therefore, it definitely cannot and will not constitute proof of its

17 contents. That's being made clear by the Chamber.

18 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Otherwise, as a fact that he was handed this

20 document that can be established in the records.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you. Your Honour.

22 Q. Mr. Krzic, just briefly, if you could take a look at the original

23 of that document in B/C/S, and tell me, if you recall, have you seen this

24 document before, and if so, where did you see it or where did you first

25 see it?

1 A. Yes. I received it personally in Banja Luka.

2 Q. I'd ask you to just take a look. I would just like to point out

3 the second-to-last paragraph, regarding in this document, that begins,

4 "That not everything is as black as it seems. Is seen among the numerous

5 examples of self-sacrifice undertaken by the local Serb people who have

6 rendered assistance, from hiding persons in their attics during raids to

7 bringing bread to the jails and schools and many other acts which the

8 Muslims of this region will never forget."

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, you've just ruled that it cannot be

11 admitted for the truth of its contents and now we are being supplied with

12 its contents, apparently as a representation that they are true.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. He hasn't come with the question as yet.

14 What is your question?

15 MR. KOUMJIAN:

16 Q. Mr. Krzic, did you receive information from non-Serbs outside the

17 municipality, and within Banja Luka, that there were Serbs helping

18 Muslims?

19 A. Yes, I did.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: That closes your objection, Mr. Ackerman, because

21 obviously, the situation has been clarified.

22 Yes, please go ahead.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN:

24 Q. Mr. Krzic, did you speak to non-Serbs in Banja Luka who decided

25 during 1992 to leave the city or the municipality?

1 A. With non-Serbs? Of course.

2 Q. Can you tell us what reasons people gave for why they were leaving

3 their homes?

4 A. Well, the first reason was that they felt their lives and their

5 family lives threatened. The other, second reason, was the impossibility

6 of living under conditions of different types of pressures, which I have

7 already described. And the third reason was the impossibility of heating

8 their homes, of obtaining food in the winter months. These were the main

9 reasons why these people left. Also the forced call-ups, mobilisation.

10 Well, I don't suppose we have to mention all the reasons. There is also

11 the impossibility of obtaining medical care. People were jobless. They

12 had property there, they had their usual life, and they expected all this

13 to end one day.

14 Q. Were non-Serbs within Banja Luka municipality, to your knowledge,

15 aware of camps in which opponents of the authorities were being

16 imprisoned, or in which non-Serbs were being imprisoned?

17 A. Yes. I'm sure the vast majority was aware of this. The public at

18 large knew about this because the Serb authorities, in fact, came -- in

19 fact, obtained the information that I sent out abroad, and broadcast this

20 on their own televisions.

21 Q. In late August of 1992, was there a very public information about

22 a massacre that occurred on a convoy of non-Serbs passing over Vlasic

23 Mountain?

24 A. I received this information about the massacre a day later from

25 persons who were present at the investigation.

1 Q. I'm sorry, but my question is, to your knowledge, was this -- let

2 me -- I wasn't specific enough. To your knowledge, was this publicised?

3 Was it on the radio and in the media, information about this massacre?

4 A. No, it wasn't, no. As far as I know, it wasn't.

5 Q. Did you yourself have some information or some involvement in the

6 situation that took place in a village in Kljuc municipality known as

7 Vecici?

8 A. Vecici, they are not in the Kljuc area. It is not a village in

9 the Kljuc area.

10 Q. Sorry, Kotor Varos.

11 A. Yes. I received, on a regular basis, information about events

12 taking place in Vecici. I received information from the Serb authorities

13 informally and formally, and myself, on one occasion, I was able to

14 receive such information on the spot.

15 Q. Can you briefly describe the situation as you knew it before you

16 actually went to Vecici? What was the situation that was going on there?

17 A. The whole of Banja Luka witnessed daily flights of fighting planes

18 that unloaded their explosives in that area where the people were

19 defending themselves. Every day, daily, returnees from the front lines

20 passed through Banja Luka, who were shooting in the air, throughout the

21 city. I saw many vans and trucks of soldiers coming back from Vecici and

22 Kotor Varos, shooting by way of celebration. I also received from

23 Mr. Kupresanin, from the Serb authorities in his office, where other

24 witnesses were also present. I also received the information in a

25 concealed fashion from family and friends in the area of Vecici and Kotor

1 Varos.

2 Q. Well, would it be correct to summarise the situation that there

3 was resistance -- armed resistance by non-Serbs in and around that village

4 to the Serbian authorities in the area?

5 A. Yes, absolutely. I forgot to mention that the information was

6 also partially published in the Banja Luka press, in the propaganda sense,

7 and such information also received from the police, the Banja Luka SUP,

8 when I was arrested and when they showed me the special police -- the

9 policemen of special forces who were killed during that event.

10 Q. And sir, did you yourself attempt to get arms to the fighters --

11 the non-Serb fighters in Vecici?

12 A. No, because I didn't have any arms for such purposes.

13 Q. Would it be correct to say that you supported those non-Serb

14 fighters in Vecici?

15 A. Well, I supported them in the moral sense because we saw what was

16 going on in respect of the innocent population, this sort of genocide that

17 was being carried out. And I understood that struggle as resistance of

18 people, of men, women, and children, against this genocide.

19 Q. And you were aware, were you not, that arms were being sent from

20 Banja Luka to the fighters?

21 A. I knew that some of the volunteers that went to Vecici took along

22 arms with them. When I say "arms," I mean light arms. Some of them tried

23 to obtain ammunition in Banja Luka and anti-tank weapons. They even

24 approached tank brigades. But they didn't have anti-tank arms. I don't

25 know to what extent they were able to procure such weapons.

1 Q. Was it publicised that the authorities, the Serbian authorities,

2 were demanding the surrender of these fighters?

3 A. I saw such a document when an order -- when a visit was ordered in

4 the area of Kotor Varos and Vecici. I was shown such a document on that

5 occasion.

6 Q. Did Mr. Kupresanin ask you to go with him to Vecici to contact the

7 fighters there?

8 A. Immediately following the talk I had with the American

9 representative, Mr. Galbraith, the very same day, I was sent a message by

10 Mr. Kupresanin to come to his office urgently in the municipal assembly.

11 When I came to the office -- I did not accept to do this immediately, but

12 I was asked to come to Vecici and to ask the fighters to surrender. There

13 were four witnesses present. I can quote their names, including Mr. Beat

14 Schwitzer of the International Red Cross. Mr. Kupresanin did not come

15 with me to Vecici.

16 Q. When you went to Vecici, were you asked by some of the Serbian

17 authorities to deliver a message to the fighters, and if so, what was the

18 message or demands of the authorities to the fighters in Vecici?

19 A. In the presence of the representatives of the HDZ, a priest, and

20 two of us representing the Bosniak people, a group representing the Serb

21 authorities - I think I mentioned all in names in my book - headed by

22 Colonel Peulic, they required of us to require -- to demand their

23 unconditional surrender. A document had been offered where, as far as I

24 can remember, some of the conditions for the surrender were listed.

25 Q. If you know, sir, do you know Colonel Peulic, what corps he was

1 part of and who his superior was?

2 A. I know he was commander of the Serb army in the area of Kotor

3 Varos and obviously his superior commander was, as far as I can remember,

4 General Talic.

5 Q. When the authorities, Serbian authorities, and army demanded the

6 surrender of the fighters, did they indicate what they would do with the

7 fighters if they surrendered?

8 A. Well, in -- it was not explicitly explained in front of me what

9 would happen to the fighters. It was said - and I mostly heard this from

10 the HDZ representatives - that the population would be gathered together

11 and collected and then transported to Travnik, I think. But I was not

12 explicitly informed of what would happen to the fighters on that

13 occasion.

14 Q. So when you used the word "population," you mean that the --

15 you're including non-fighters, civilians, would be taken from the area

16 where they lived and taken to Travnik, which was in the territory

17 controlled by the Bosniak government -- the Bosnian army; is that

18 correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honours, I have a document which we have

21 pre-marked P452A in the English version and P452B in the B/C/S version.

22 It is entitled "Party of Democratic Action Banja Luka," dated 18 October,

23 1992. And it's addressed to the Ambassador Muhamed Sacirbey at the

24 Bosnian and Herzegovinian missions of the United Nations in New York. The

25 subject line is "Ethnic cleansing in the territory of Kotor Varos."

1 A. Yes. I'm acquainted with that document. I signed it myself. I

2 wrote it and signed it myself.

3 Q. Does this document report on your involvement in these

4 negotiations in Vecici?

5 A. It does contain that. But it is a summary of what I believe to be

6 important, to mention my personal report contains more details that

7 perhaps could be relevant for the Prosecution.

8 Q. You indicated that you were told to demand by the authorities --

9 Serbian authorities to demand the surrender of the fighters in the

10 population. Did you in fact go and speak to the fighters in Kotor

11 Varos -- in Vecici?

12 A. Yes. I was required to do so. And here I had no choice. So I

13 decided to accept to go to Vecici but not alone. There were two other

14 people with me: Mr. Dzumhur and the priest, Adolf. And in Vecici, we had

15 talks -- well, we didn't know who these people were then -- that is, with

16 three people representatives of the Vecici population.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Koumjian, whenever it's convenient for you,

18 please bring this initial part of your -- of today's examination to an end

19 so that we can break. Thank you.

20 MR. KOUMJIAN:

21 Q. Sir, when you spoke to the fighters in Vecici, did they -- did you

22 pass information from them back to the authorities regarding their

23 response to the demands for surrender?

24 A. I did. These answers are written in the same document issued by

25 the Serb soldiers from Kotor Varos. On the second page, this was written

1 in print -- the reply was written in print.

2 Q. And is that reply given in the document that has been marked, that

3 you sent to the ambassador at the United Nations, that being that the

4 fighters responded that the -- that they demanded an "all-for-all exchange

5 of dead soldiers and POWs with the Serbian side, that the ICRC" -- that's

6 the International Committee for the Red Cross -- "must come to Vecici in

7 order to guarantee safety, that humanitarian aid be brought to Vecici, and

8 that foreign reporters be allowed to Vecici."

9 A. This is 100 per cent correct.

10 Q. Did you give that response to Colonel Peulic, and if so, what was

11 his response?

12 A. Well, I transmitted this reply to Colonel Peulic, in the presence

13 of the other people I mentioned. When he read this, he shouted out, "We

14 will destroy them," and he banged his fist on the table and everything

15 shook.

16 Q. Do you recall the words he used, to the best of your

17 recollection? When he said, "We will destroy them," is that what you

18 recall? Do you recall any exact words?

19 A. He said, "We'll destroy them."

20 Q. The next day, did Mr. Kupresanin call you?

21 A. I cannot say this with accuracy, whether it was that day or the

22 day afterwards. I think it was the next day. I was -- Mr. Kupresanin

23 called me. He was very polite at the beginning and inquired about Kotor

24 Varos. And then -- then his words were very sharp. He even swore at me.

25 He said that I had betrayed him, tricked him, and that I should go back to

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1 Vecici straight away and to see that these people surrender. If I refused

2 to do so, then in the very next morning, I would be taken -- he would take

3 me to the Manjaca camp.

4 Q. And what was your understanding of what the Manjaca camp was?

5 A. It is in fact -- it conjured in my mind a picture of liquidation.

6 Me, with my reputation, I would never emerge from there alive. And not

7 only an ordinary death, but a death accompanied by torture.

8 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, Your Honour. This is a convenient time

9 to break.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll break for 25 minutes. We'll resume the

11 hearing at five to 11.00. Thank you.

12 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

13 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

15 I recognise Mr. Ackerman on his feet.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, just for the purposes of the record,

17 and perhaps for the assistance of the Chamber, page 114 of Mr. Krzic's

18 book is page 30 and 31 of the translation.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman, as usual. As we go

20 along, you are proving to be almost indispensable.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: I just hope Mr. Brdjanin feels the same way, Your

22 Honour.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I am sure that Mr. Brdjanin is completely

24 satisfied with you as his attorney, as I would be. Thank you.

25 Could you bring the witness in, please? Thank you.

1 Yes, Mr. Koumjian, you can resume the examination of your

2 witness. Thank you.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you.

4 Q. Mr. Brdjanin -- excuse me, Mr. Krzic, you mentioned earlier that

5 part of your role as president of the SDA was meeting with journalists and

6 with representatives of international organisations and foreign

7 embassies. What was your purpose in speaking to these individuals?

8 A. Generally speaking, the purpose was to introduce the work and the

9 objectives of the work of the party in this area, as a political

10 organisation, in a period of democratic changes. My wish was to convince

11 them that, as far as the SDA is concerned, these changes are in accordance

12 with generally accepted democratic principles.

13 Second, in view of the overall exacerbation of the situation, it

14 was my wish to acquaint them with the current events and some consequences

15 which had more general repercussions.

16 And thirdly, my contact with foreigners - and again, there were

17 not only diplomats and journalists but occasionally, there would be some

18 representatives, such as Mr. Galbraith and others - that is, the objective

19 of my contact with them was to ask the representatives of foreign

20 countries to try and save the population, the people, in general, from the

21 very obvious attempts at their physical destruction. I simply had to use

22 my position for that purpose because it was possible for me to act in that

23 perspective, with that purpose in mind, whereas ordinary people, a man in

24 the street, would have suffered severe consequences if exposed to such

25 events.

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I would now like to distribute two

2 documents. They are labelled, premarked, P453A in the English, and 453B.

3 This is a document that is from the Republika Srpska Ministry of the

4 Interior, dated 6th of July, 1993, from the National Security Service

5 Sector in Banja Luka, and it is addressed to the president of the regional

6 board of the SDS, Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin.

7 The second document, we have premarked P454A in the English

8 translation and it is the 454B in the original B/C/S version. It is from

9 the same security service. It is dated the 23rd of July, 1993. It is

10 also addressed to Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin, president of the SDS.

11 And just for Defence counsel, those two exhibits are in order

12 disclosures number 4.1237, and 4.1239. I'd ask that the B/C/S versions be

13 shown to the witness.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I haven't yet found the documents, but

16 they've been offered as documents dated 6 July 1993 and 23 July 1993,

17 which is more than six months outside the parameters of this indictment,

18 which ends in December of 1992. And so I cannot see that they would have

19 any relevance to any issues in this case. Perhaps the Prosecutor can

20 state what relevance they might have, but they appear to be completely

21 irrelevant.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. de Roux?

23 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] My objection would have been exactly

24 the same, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And your reaction, Mr. Koumjian?

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, the indictment concerns crimes in

2 1992. These two documents actually do not discuss crimes at all, but what

3 they do show and go to prove is that the security service, and in

4 particular Mr. Brdjanin, had an interest in the activities of Mr. Krzic

5 and his contacts with foreign media and the fact -- foreigners and the

6 fact that he was a political person getting the word out to the world

7 about the crimes that had occurred since 1992 in the area. So I think it

8 is very relevant to the knowledge of Mr. Brdjanin of the activities of the

9 security service and the interests of the accused in hiding the crimes

10 that had taken place.

11 I would point out that any effort to hide a crime is going to be

12 relevant, even if that took place long after the crime.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE AGIUS: The Chamber is of the opinion that on face value,

15 these two documents can be relevant to the point that has just been made

16 by the Prosecutor, subject, of course, to the probative value that they

17 would be given in due course. Thank you.

18 So you can now proceed with filing or introducing these two

19 documents 453A and 454A, and then we'll take it up from there. Please go

20 ahead.

21 MR. KOUMJIAN:

22 Q. Mr. Krzic, if you could briefly look at those documents in the

23 B/C/S version. And is it true that you first saw these documents here in

24 The Hague last week when I showed them to you?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. The documents list several individuals that you had contact with,

2 including Mr. Hamdija Todorovic and Veronique Pasquier, a Swiss

3 journalist. Is it correct that you did have contact with these

4 individuals?

5 A. Yes, it is. But let me just correct you. The name is Todorovac

6 not Todorovic. And the other person is Veronique Pasquier.

7 Q. Thank you very much.

8 It also is indicated in document 454A that you had contact with

9 some foreign journalists, including Mr. Roy Gutman. Is it correct that

10 you did have contact and give interviews to Mr. Gutman?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. In fact, sir, in 1992, is it correct that you once had a meeting

13 with Mr. Gutman in your home which was followed up by a visit from some

14 other people to your home?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. And after you spoke to Mr. Gutman, who came to see you at your

17 home?

18 A. Two police officers in plain clothes came to see me, within a very

19 short period of time, one hour, an hour and a half, perhaps.

20 Q. And did they question you about your meeting with Mr. Gutman?

21 A. Yes, they did. And they made notes of that.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: I have some other documents to distribute. And

24 it's going to be quite a group.

25 First, Your Honour, we have pre-marked as Exhibit P455A in the

1 English version and 455B in the B/C/S version a document that indicates

2 it's from the Party of Democratic Action, Banja Luka, dated the 2nd of

3 August, 1992. The subject line is, "Report of a meeting of the SDA with

4 the ICRC on 31 July 1992 in the offices of the ICRC."

5 The next document we have pre-marked as P456A and 456B. And the

6 original, it is indicated, is from the Party of Democratic Action, Banja

7 Luka, dated 18 November 1992, and it is addressed to the Republic of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, mission to the United Nations, New York, Mr. Muhamed

9 Sacirbey, ambassador.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I take it that these two documents have been

11 disclosed to the Defence already?

12 MR. KOUMJIAN: All the documents that I have --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Just wanted to make sure.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: -- have been disclosed, along with the witness

15 statements, so they are under disclosure 7.99.

16 The next document that I have, we have marked P457A and 457B.

17 It's indicated it's from the Party of Democratic Action, Banja Luka. It's

18 addressed to the embassy of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, mission to

19 the United Nations, New York, Muhamed Sacirbey personally, indicates on

20 the topic line, "Report of a meeting with the mayor of the county council

21 of Banja Luka."

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you can proceed.

23 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm sorry, I'm just trying to shuffle my papers. I

24 believe I was last at 456. I don't believe I've read for the record 457.

25 I have a document marked, "Party of Democratic Action, Banja Luka,"

1 premarked 457A and 457B. It is addressed to the embassy of the Republic

2 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, mission to the United Nations, New York,

3 Muhamed Sacirbey personally. The topic line is, "Meeting with the mayor

4 of the county council of Banja Luka." Perhaps I did read that but I

5 didn't find that in the LiveNote. We have as document 4.5 -- we have that

6 already?

7 Excuse me, marked P458A and 458B, a document that indicates it's

8 to Mr. Vance and Lord Owen. On the original, there is not a date but

9 there is a fax transmission date of 12 December, 1992, and it is on the

10 letterhead of the Party of Democratic Action, Banja Luka.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally, Mr. Koumjian, I notice that document

12 P457A, as well as its counterpart, P457B, do not show any date. They

13 purport to be signed by a witness, and being supposedly a transcript or a

14 copy of communication to His Excellency Muhamed Sacirbey at the embassy --

15 at the mission. I would have expected it to be dated. It's definitely

16 subsequent to the 8th December, 1992, but that's as far as we can go.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: That is correct, Your Honour. There is a date

18 referred to in the first line, which is -- it indicates on the first line,

19 "On 8 December" - of the report - "1992, at our urgent demand, we were

20 received by Mayor Radic." Apparently it's a report regarding a meeting

21 that took place on the 8th of December, 1992, with Mr. Radic, but there is

22 not a date on the document, at least on the translation.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the type of document which I would imagine

24 was faxed. I mean, it's the kind of document that is not sent by mail.

25 Usually it's faxed, as is the case with the other documents, or some of

1 the other documents. I don't know. I'm just -- I just thought I needed

2 to indicate that to you because, more or less, it's an important aspect

3 that should be noted. Yes, please go ahead --

4 MR. KOUMJIAN: I'm sorry.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: -- with the next --

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: I think I've learned my lesson to do one exhibit at

7 a time.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think so. In fact, I was going to suggest to you

9 that you deal with these documents now one by one, while you are

10 questioning your witness.

11 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Because, I mean, it's not fair putting on his desk

13 four documents, about 20 or 30 pages.

14 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes. Well -- and I can mix up two pieces of paper,

15 let alone this many.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Please go ahead.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Okay. Going through these documents one by one.

18 Q. Do you have in front of you, sir, document 455B, which is the 2nd

19 of August, 1992, report on the SDA meeting with the ICRC?

20 A. Yes, I do. And I fully agree with this document. However, I must

21 note that there is a certain difficulty in --

22 Q. Sorry to interrupt you, but -- and I will allow you to explain,

23 but first let me just ask: Do you know who authored this document?

24 A. Every document, including this one, which is actually a report of

25 a meeting with international organisations, was authored by myself -- of

1 course, in consultation with my colleagues.

2 Q. I'm not going to go through the contents of all these documents

3 because the Court can read them and they speak for themselves. Is it

4 correct, simply, that this is a report of a meeting by your -- members of

5 your party with the International Committee of the Red Cross on 31st of

6 July, 1992?

7 A. Yes. The report that I have in front of me is exactly this.

8 Q. Going to the next document, which is 456, it is dated the 18th of

9 November, 1992, addressed to the UN mission, to the ambassador of Bosnia

10 in New York, and is it correct that you are the author of this document?

11 Your name appears on the signature -- on the last page?

12 A. Yes. This document was signed by me.

13 Q. Did you write the document?

14 A. Yes, I did.

15 Q. Was this common for you to write to the embassy or to the UN

16 mission in New York of Bosnia reporting on events that were taking place

17 in the region of the Bosnian Krajina?

18 A. I did not do it upon anyone's suggestion or proposal; neither did

19 we have any specific instruction from any higher level, the level of the

20 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, for example. It was done mostly

21 spontaneously. We thought that that would be the best way to proceed

22 because the mission was working at the United Nations, and we thought that

23 that would be the best way to familiarise the international community with

24 the current events.

25 And in view of the remark made by His Honour regarding faxing, I

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1 must add that a great number of documents were not faxed from Banja Luka

2 but from another state, which it -- they -- which they reached in a

3 concealed fashion.

4 Q. Okay. Perhaps you could just explain that, or correct me if I'm

5 wrong. Is it correct that for security reasons you asked some people to

6 take these letters outside of the Bosnian Krajina region and fax them from

7 other locations, such as Zagreb?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. Going to the next document, 457. Again, can you confirm that you

10 are the author of this document? And this is the -- entitled "Report of a

11 Meeting with the Mayor of the County Council of Banja Luka."

12 A. Yes, it is. Let me just note that in this document and in the

13 previous document, we found something that is explained in greater detail

14 than my book.

15 Q. Okay. Thank you. I would ask you to note on this the

16 paragraph -- there are three numbered paragraphs. And this is numbered

17 "1," but it's the second one. It talks about the reaction of the mayor,

18 Radic, at the meeting. Is it correct --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that as stated in this document that

21 Radic indicated that the situation could get worse with the return of

22 soldiers and refugees to the city?

23 A. He said that the situation would get worse, not that it could get

24 worse but that it would get worse for sure.

25 Q. Was this something you commonly heard from members of the SDS

1 regarding crimes committed against non-Serbs? In other words, was this

2 blamed on soldiers coming back from the front?

3 A. That formulation was often heard. If you have a look at the

4 press, I think you could see that it often appeared in the press too -- in

5 the press in that period.

6 Q. Thank you. Moving on to the next document, 458. Is it correct

7 that this -- first, can you confirm -- can you tell us who authored this

8 document?

9 A. Club of the Delegates of the SDA and the Bosnian people, who with

10 Mr. Owen compiled this document, and I think it was signed by the

11 president of the Club of Delegates of the SDA. I can recognise it. But I

12 must add one other thing: The document wasn't sent immediately -- it

13 wasn't sent, not immediately, but it wasn't sent soon after Mr. Owen's

14 departure and Mr. Vance, because we wanted a certain period of time to

15 pass to see whether the situation would improve or whether it would

16 deteriorate. So as you see, several months after the meeting, this

17 document was sent.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Koumjian. Perhaps you could ask the

19 witness to give us the name of the president of the Club of Delegates of

20 the SDA --

21 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: -- once he recollects that this document was

23 originally signed by that person.

24 A. I think it was Mr. Djanic. I think that Mr. Djanic signed it.

25 MR. KOUMJIAN:

1 Q. Mr. Krzic, did you read this document before it was sent?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. And did you agree with the contents of the document?

4 A. Completely.

5 Q. Was this another example of your attempt to inform diplomats in

6 the outside world about crimes that were occurring in your region of the

7 Bosnian Krajina?

8 A. Yes. We thought that it would carry its own weight, because

9 Mr. Vance, when he was leaving, he himself suggested that we inform him in

10 the event of the situation deteriorating and in the event of our personal

11 security coming under threat. And we promised Mr. Owen that we would send

12 our response with regard to his request -- we promised that we would send

13 our response in writing. And he requested that we -- that our deputies,

14 our representatives, that they return to the municipal assembly and

15 participate in its work. This was in fact an answer, a reply, to

16 Mr. Owen's request.

17 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I have another document, marked P459A

18 in the English and 459B. It's indicated it's from the Humanitarian Law

19 Centre in Belgrade. It's entitled "In the spotlight of the Humanitarian

20 Law Centre, Trebinje, in Banja Luka, dated the 10th of May, 1993."

21 Q. Mr. Krzic, did you also speak to members of human rights

22 organisations from various countries, including from Belgrade, from

23 Yugoslavia?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. I believe that you've been handed the document 459B. Is it

1 correct that you spoke to the authors of this document, and can you tell

2 us whether or not you had seen this document at approximately the time

3 that it was written or distributed?

4 A. I spoke to Mrs. Natasha Kondic on several occasions, perhaps ten

5 times, who was the president of the Humanitarian Law Centre in Belgrade.

6 We spoke over the phone. In very broad lines, I described to her the

7 situation in Banja Luka and its surroundings. But I didn't go into great

8 detail, which would have been dangerous for me. For example, if I had

9 mentioned the main protagonist, the main criminal protagonists.

10 Mrs. Kondic left the impression of being someone who was really

11 fighting for human rights and was a real humanitarian, a humanist. And in

12 this document, which I subsequently received, not at the time, I was

13 pleasantly surprised, given the precision that the Humanitarian Law

14 Centre -- given the precision that the Humanitarian Law Centre had managed

15 to achieve in this document. And the person who contacted me was really

16 attempting to help the non-Serbian population and to assist in the fight

17 for human rights.

18 Q. Mr. Krzic, the documents that we've been talking about discuss

19 your efforts to publicly get the word out to the world about the events

20 that were taking place in the Bosnian Krajina. Isn't it correct that you

21 fought in other ways against the policies of the authorities in Banja Luka

22 during the indictment period?

23 A. Yes. But I would like to add something, a little detail. I have

24 to say that - please help me with the word - Amnesty International was

25 quite often informed about the situation, especially by the person who was

1 responsible for monitoring violations of human rights.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. So I was -- within the SDA party.

4 Q. I want to go now to your efforts, not to inform outsiders about

5 the crimes but to fight against the authorities in power in Banja Luka.

6 Mr. Krzic, did you ever consider or attempt to get weapons to

7 resist the authorities in Banja Luka?

8 A. Yes, I did. But these were individual attempts, so to speak. I

9 was acting in an intuitive way, and it was not with the intention of

10 attacking someone. The intention was that in the case of our lives coming

11 under threat, the intention was to sell our lives for a high price.

12 Q. Did you go to both Sarajevo and Zagreb and attempt to get

13 weapons?

14 A. I didn't go to Zagreb with that intention, but I came across the

15 idea in Zagreb to try and get weapons, to try and obtain weapons.

16 Unfortunately, some of the promises came to nothing, in practical terms.

17 There a concrete promise was made in Sarajevo for 40 automatic weapons,

18 for 50 automatic weapons, which we did not receive, but the person who had

19 promised us these weapons was soon after attacked by the State Security

20 Service in Belgrade. He was soon arrested. And the only case in which I

21 managed to obtain weapons involved two old German automatic weapons, which

22 I received in Sarajevo, for my personal protection and in order to protect

23 the Vice-President of the party, to whom I gave that automatic weapon. I

24 took them both to Banja Luka.

25 Q. Thank you. Were you -- would it be correct to say that the

1 non-Serbs - and particularly you are probably more familiar with the

2 Muslim population in Banja Luka - probably did have some weapons in their

3 possession in -- within the municipality?

4 A. They obviously did. I am not sure of the exact number. I heard

5 more about it. I heard from the Serbian police when they arrested

6 numerous people. They would often repeat that they knew that we had --

7 "that you had 2.000 rifles," so this is a rough figure and I really am

8 not sure about it.

9 Q. Mr. Krzic, you've indicated that you opposed what the authorities

10 were doing and you saw many, many crimes against the civilian population

11 in that municipality. Why didn't you organise an armed resistance in

12 Banja Luka?

13 A. First of all, lengthy preparations are necessary for an armed

14 resistance. We hadn't made any such preparations, and no one warned us

15 that we were in danger. When I say that no one warned us, I'm talking

16 about the state authorities. We received no warnings from them. We

17 didn't receive a single document or an order to take certain steps in that

18 direction. There were conversations, there were meetings, relating to

19 that subject but nothing concrete was ever done.

20 When we were faced with -- when our danger -- when our life was

21 really in danger, and I don't mean -- I'm not talking about the

22 possibility of dying accidentally, but I'm talking about the possibility

23 of your family being killed in the course of the day or in the night,

24 which is what happened in -- at various locations, and people who had

25 children were under particular psychological pressure. They could have

1 their children killed before their eyes. This also took place. In such

2 cases, the only thing that a normal person could do, and that includes us

3 too, would be to get his hands on any kind of weapon in order to kill the

4 perpetrator, the criminal, but to kill himself too. This is the only

5 reason for which we tried to get hold of weapons.

6 Obviously, there were groups of youths, of young men, who

7 organised themselves, but these were agreements between young people who

8 played football together, who went to school together, and I have to say

9 that this included both Croats and Bosniaks, but I never saw a single

10 person, a single youth, carrying such a weapon, except for, on several

11 occasions, I saw someone carrying a pistol, a small calibre pistol such as

12 a pistol -- like the pistol that I had. So no intensive preparations took

13 place for us to arm ourselves, but we dreamt about it. We knew that there

14 were individuals, there was a current -- there was a feeling in the

15 population, among the population, a feeling that it shouldn't be used

16 except in the case of mass execution, except in cases where an order of

17 any kind could influence the matter in some way. Killings of certain

18 criminals, of course this occurred in our villages, in our places, but

19 such acts, usually outbursts on our side, revenge would be taken for such

20 acts, and quite disproportionate revenge, too.

21 Q. Sir, without giving any names, is it also correct that you had

22 some sources within the military of the VRS, that is the Serbian army in

23 the region, that provided you with information that you, on occasion,

24 passed on to government authorities in Sarajevo?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Let me just ask you, Mr. Krzic, in your estimation, what would

2 have happened if, in 1992, the civilian, non-Serb population in Banja Luka

3 had attempted an uprising against the Serbian authorities?

4 A. That was quite clear. There was no dilemma. Intellectuals and

5 non-educated people think in the same way. That would have been a very

6 welcome act, a pretext to take revenge. We were especially bitter because

7 of Mr. Brdjanin and his very dangerous remark, but we were aware that if

8 we did anything against him, a massacre of the entire civilian population

9 would ensue.

10 Q. Mr. Krzic, I just want to clarify some of your language, to make

11 sure which groups you're talking about. I'm reading a little bit of your

12 transcript, and you indicated at one point in the previous question or two

13 questions ago, that "there was a feeling in the population, among the

14 population, a feeling that it shouldn't be used except in the case of mass

15 execution." You're indicating -- can you explain what shouldn't be used

16 and mass execution of what people? I think there may be a little

17 ambiguity there.

18 A. I will provide you with an example. You know, in Vrbanja, at a

19 meeting in Vrbanja, which was organised at the request of the municipality

20 and which was attended by the mayor, Mr. Radic, and at which an attempt

21 was made in a courteous way to tell the Bosniaks from the Vrbanja

22 settlement -- an attempt was made to state what the problems were. The

23 population, the people who were present there, apologised for putting

24 forth facts on the terror to which they had been exposed, to which they

25 were being exposed in that area of the town. That same evening,

1 participants who had stated these facts, who were -- who felt free to say

2 what had happened, what was happening to them, they were attacked, they

3 were shelled, they were shot at, and they were very happy to escape from

4 the town with their lives. So you can well imagine what would have

5 happened if our people had killed a soldier, not to say a Chetnik.

6 Q. In one of your answers, you indicated, when I asked you about an

7 armed uprising, that that would have been a welcome act and a pretext to

8 take revenge. I believe I know what you're talking about but can you

9 please explain who would have welcomed the uprising and used it as a

10 pretext to take revenge?

11 A. It's clear who would have welcomed that. The greater Serbian

12 forces, as we called them, would have welcomed that. This could include

13 the majority of the members of the SDS at the time, especially members of

14 the Radical Party, as far as the political establishment is concerned.

15 But as far as the military establishment is concerned, we could mention

16 the commanders from that period; we mentioned some of them before. As far

17 as the police is concerned, the heads of the police, who attempted to make

18 such statements. There were attempts to provoke such a revolt, such a

19 rebellion, and I mentioned a book -- I mentioned an event in my book, when

20 the population in the part of the town in which I live was surrounded.

21 That area was surrounded and the population, regardless of their age, this

22 included small children, they were all gathered in Poljakov Park. It's a

23 park called after a well-known family.

24 Q. I just want to clarify the language. Is it correct that you're

25 saying that an uprising would have been a pretext used by Serbian

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1 authorities in power to take revenge against the non-Serb civilian

2 population? Is that your meaning?

3 A. Yes. That's what I wanted to say.

4 Q. Thank you. Sir, do you know General Talic?

5 A. Yes, I do know him.

6 Q. Have you met him in person?

7 A. I met him in person on two occasions.

8 Q. Do you see him in the courtroom today?

9 A. Yes, I can see General Talic.

10 Q. When did you meet with General Talic the first time?

11 A. That was towards the end of May, 1992. I have the exact date

12 here. I don't know if it's necessary for me to find it and to read it

13 out. At the time, people begged for a meeting. They didn't ask for a

14 meeting, but they begged for a meeting with General Talic, the head of the

15 army at the time.

16 Q. When you met with General Talic -- let's just put that time -- I'm

17 not so much concerned with the exact date but with -- put it in relation

18 to other events. Do you know when that occurred in relation to the attack

19 on Kozarac in Prijedor municipality?

20 A. That was between -- that was between six and eight days before the

21 attack on Kozarac, that is to say, Prijedor.

22 Q. Okay. The meeting was approximately six to eight days before the

23 attack on Kozarac; is that correct?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Who was at this meeting with General Talic?

1 A. Mr. Mufti Halilovic, Professor Osmancevic, Professor Bajric, the

2 economist Safet Filipovic, an old-age pensioner named Dalnezirovic. And I

3 think Professor Bilalbegovic was there, but I'm not exactly sure at this

4 moment.

5 Q. Were these all representatives that you've mentioned of the Muslim

6 and Croat communities in Banja Luka?

7 A. In this case, they were the representatives of the Bosniak

8 community, because before that, we had suggested to members of the

9 Croatian community -- we had suggested that we go together. But that was

10 not accepted.

11 Q. What was discussed -- excuse me. Was General Talic alone, or was

12 he with other individuals?

13 A. In addition to Mr. Talic, Colonel Osman Selak was present and

14 another two or three officers from the army.

15 Q. When you met with General Talic, where did this meeting in the

16 middle of May take place?

17 A. The meeting was held in the building of the staff of the Yugoslav

18 army, or it would be better to say in the restaurant which served as -- we

19 simply called it the Dom Armije, "the home of the army" -- on the first

20 floor, in one of the rooms in the corner of the building.

21 Q. What was the purpose of the meeting with General Talic, and what

22 matters did you bring up in that meeting?

23 A. In general terms, we wanted this meeting because we hoped that

24 there were certain forces within the army that were capable of protecting

25 the population, protecting them from terror or forms of terror, physical

1 terror, to which the population -- the non-Serbian population was being

2 subjected in Banja Luka and its surroundings. I don't think it is

3 necessary for me to state what this relates to. At the time the first

4 killings, had already taken place. Innocent people had been killed.

5 There was rape and, of course, what we would call culturacide, attacks on

6 culture, on a culture that was very much non-Serbian or that could be

7 considered as European culture.

8 Q. Was there anything about the history of Yugoslavia that made you

9 have some hopes in the army as a force you could talk to?

10 A. Of course. The army was the strongest force. And furthermore,

11 they still insisted -- certain officers in the army still insisted --

12 still existed who were from the Second World War or were the sons of

13 partisans, fighters in the Second World War. There were still such

14 officers in the Yugoslav army. And we still believed that the army had to

15 be -- had to adhere to the principle that it should not allow such evil

16 being committed against the innocent -- an innocent population and vice

17 versa. We lost any faith in the police, for reasons which I can state

18 later, but this -- these were the last forces that we could count on to

19 protect the population, the non-Serbian population.

20 Q. Did you discuss with General Talic some of the matters that you've

21 just mentioned, that is, crimes against the civilian population and

22 attacks on the culture of the non-Serb population?

23 A. Yes, we did. We went into detail. I even think that certain

24 things were -- that some things were noted at the place. But you must

25 know that although we were victims, it was necessary to be courageous, to

1 make protests. We were begging for protection. We weren't protesting.

2 Q. What was General Talic's response when you recounted the crimes

3 that were occurring against the non-Serb population?

4 A. As far as I can remember, he didn't deny this. He accepted it. I

5 can't even remember that he tried to justify that situation. But he

6 promised that he would form one or two so-called light brigades - and to

7 tell you the truth, maybe I don't know what this means - in order to

8 protect the population, in order to patrol at critical hours -- to patrol

9 in the city at critical hours and, of course, in the villages too.

10 It is true he also warned that he expected even greater trouble in

11 the area of Prijedor. And then we hoped that in the town the situation

12 would become more stable, but we were also concerned about the population

13 in the smaller towns and in the villages.

14 Q. You mentioned Prijedor. What did General Talic tell you at this

15 meeting which took place, you said, approximately six or eight days before

16 the attacks on Kozarac about Prijedor?

17 A. Well, in addition to what I've already told you, this is something

18 which he mentioned that -- a meeting in the presence of other people too.

19 When I was leaving, I was in the company of the mufti, and the general

20 showed respect to the mufti. This could be seen from his behaviour. And

21 then when we were on our way out, some people were behind us, and he said

22 once again that in seven days, he expected trouble in the area of

23 Prijedor.

24 Q. Do you recall the date of the second meeting with General Talic?

25 A. I think it was in about a month or a month and a half time after

1 that. It was then that we held another meeting, also begging to have this

2 meeting organised.

3 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I have another document. It has been

4 marked P460. The document indicates it's from the social, cultural,

5 religious, and political associations of the Muslim people in Banja Luka.

6 And it's dated the 22nd of June, 1992 from Banja Luka. It's addressed to

7 the command of the 1st Krajina Corps in Banja Luka, to General Momir

8 Talic. And it's entitled "Cupertino Proposal."

9 Q. Mr. Krzic, where did the second meeting take place?

10 A. The second meeting took place, I think, in the building of the

11 general staff of the army of the time. It was the building next to the

12 Dom Armije.

13 Q. Now, in front of you, you have the document 460 -- P460B. Do you

14 recognise this document?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. What is it?

17 A. The document is a concept, or rather, a memorandum which we handed

18 over to a group of officers headed by General Talic during our second

19 meeting, which I had to read personally. I'm saying personally because

20 Professor Sirbegovic whose job it was to read it could not -- did not have

21 the energy -- the strength to read it. So the president of the political

22 party was not meant to have read it because we were dealing here with the

23 association of the Bosnian people of Banja Luka. But as he was not able

24 to hold the document in his hand, out of fear I read it.

25 Q. And in this document, did you recount again the crimes and

1 persecution of the non-Serb population in the area?

2 A. We did not list all of them. It was merely a concept, as I

3 mentioned before. But still, there were certain limits which we did not

4 want to overstep in order not to have our physical integrity endangered.

5 We quoted, directly or indirectly, the issue of concentration camps.

6 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I have another document we have

7 premarked P461A, it appears on the translation, and 461B on the original.

8 It's entitled at the top, "Item 2, on 22nd June, 1992, talks were held

9 with General Momir Talic," and goes on from there. And on the last page,

10 the second page, appears several signatures. It's ERN number 00923388 and

11 89 on the English translation. I'd ask these be distributed.

12 Q. Mr. Krzic, in this document 461A-B that's been handed to you, do

13 you recognise this document?

14 A. Yes, I do.

15 Q. What is this? Can you explain to the Court what it is and how it

16 was written?

17 A. This document was compiled on the same day, on the basis of an

18 agreement amongst the participants of that meeting. I printed it.

19 Everyone received a copy. The five participants. All of him -- all of

20 them were representatives of a part of the Bosniak nation. It was a

21 report of the meeting, our -- one document was the memorandum, and this

22 was a report from that meeting, which we believed was necessary to note

23 down.

24 Q. After you had read the proposal for co-operation, did General Talic

25 respond in the way that's indicated in this document? I'm referring to

1 the second page. Did he indicate that he guaranteed the safety of the

2 Banja Luka Muslims and would prevent military forces from engaging in this

3 type of activity?

4 A. Yes. This is completely accurate. All of the points listed here

5 are accurate. We were aware of the situation at the time, and there was

6 no question of writing anything down that did not reflect the true state

7 of affairs.

8 Q. Going to the second point raised by General Talic, did he -- what

9 did he indicate that the Muslim leadership should do in order to alleviate

10 somewhat the situation in the concentration camps?

11 A. He stated then that we should address the Crisis Staff of Banja

12 Luka in connection with visits to the assembly centres and the

13 concentration camps and everything that had to do with that.

14 Q. In the document that you've -- that you have before you, it

15 actually indicates "Crisis Staff of Banja Luka Municipal Assembly." When

16 you wrote this document, were you -- what was your concept of the number

17 of Crisis Staffs that were in operation in Banja Luka at that time?

18 A. In Banja Luka, there was only one Crisis Staff of the Municipal

19 Assembly of Banja Luka, but as we understood the competence of this staff

20 was that it had had a broader competence, especially in regard to the

21 local Crisis Staffs in other towns and places existing in the area of that

22 region.

23 Q. Did you have an idea at that time who was the president of this

24 Crisis Staff?

25 A. Of course, one knew who the president of the Crisis Staff was, but

1 since several names were mentioned at the time, I don't know who the

2 president was at the moment, at that particular moment. I know who the

3 members were. According to the Statute of the assembly, it was compulsory

4 for the mayor to be a member of the Crisis Staff. I'm speaking on my own

5 behalf. I was not sure whether it was Mr. Brdjanin who was president of

6 the Crisis Staff or Mr. Radic. So at this particular moment, I cannot

7 really tell. Perhaps they had formal positions, at the time, and perhaps

8 the chief of police was a determining factor, or representative of the

9 General Staff. I cannot really tell.

10 Q. Did General Talic ask you and the other representatives of your

11 community to keep the Muslim population calm within the municipality of

12 Banja Luka?

13 A. Yes. Mr. Talic, as the other officers did also, on several

14 occasions during our first meeting, and other meetings, he told us that we

15 should remain calm, that the situation would improve. And during one

16 meeting, as far as I know, it may have been the first meeting, one of his

17 associates, Colonel Vukelic, I think his name was, there were young people

18 in the towns that were playing soldiers and that they should be warned not

19 to do so or else they would be arrested. This was in the area of

20 Vrbanja. There was a group called Dobri Jarani, "good friends," that

21 we -- well, we understood that these were young people, that they were

22 having -- that they were trying to play defence. And after the meeting,

23 we went to Vrbanja. We warned those young men that they should not, under

24 any circumstance, play with arms, because this might have been a very

25 costly venture.

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. This warning, in other words --

3 Q. I'm sorry, you can complete your sentence.

4 A. Well, I understood the warning in the following way. Young people

5 discuss things, they are in each other's company, and they discuss on how

6 they should fight, but obviously they did not have weapons, because if

7 they had weapons, they would have been immediately arrested. Later on, I

8 found out that these were only physical exercises.

9 Q. Mr. Krzic, at each of these meetings, you received -- you've

10 indicated you received promises to protect the civilian population, from

11 General Talic. Did you see any results from these promises? Did the

12 situation and security of the non-Serb civilian population improve

13 following your meetings with General Talic?

14 A. Unfortunately, this situation soon deteriorated, increasingly, in

15 the town itself. In the surrounding area, the situation was quite

16 desperate. Information dating to that period reflect that the killings,

17 the looting, the shelling, in the town itself, was -- were daily

18 occurrences. This was a small town, and the information relating to the

19 surroundings reflected that a true genocide was taking place, because mass

20 killings were taking place, and we received reports from even those who

21 managed to survive.

22 Q. What did General Talic say about the camps in which non-Serbs were

23 being detained in the area?

24 A. In the talks we had with him, he tried to distinguish, obviously,

25 between the camp in Manjaca, as being a military prisoners' camp, and that

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1 it was under the control of the army, whereas, as regards collection

2 centres and prisons and concentration camps, he designated them as places

3 that were under the supervision of the police and obviously of units that

4 did not belong to professional military units.

5 Q. In the document 461, you wrote that "General Talic said he will

6 send a memorandum to Mr. Stojan Zupljanin of the Public Security Services

7 Centre to release all non-military persons, and he states that conditions

8 there are more difficult than in the military camp." Did that accurately

9 reflect what General Talic told you at the meeting?

10 A. Yes. That was my impression.

11 Q. Can you briefly tell the Court what your impression was of General

12 Talic from these meetings, and any other contact you had with him or any

13 other ways you observed him through the media?

14 A. Well, during our first meeting, actually, I hadn't met General

15 Talic before. The first time I met him was during the first meeting and

16 then during the second meeting. If I can give my personal assessment,

17 during the first meeting, he was -- he still had in him -- he was still

18 carrying in him his affiliation to the Yugoslav nation, that he was

19 still -- he still believed that Yugoslavia would be preserved, that at

20 that that particular point in time, he tried to keep the army outside

21 areas, beyond areas, for which it was not competent for in a situation of

22 war. But I also concluded subsequently, and I wondered -- I asked myself

23 why he was being polite to us, as we were victims where we actually begged

24 for protection. And on the basis of information I had in regard to the

25 situation on the front lines, I understood that his wish was to avoid

1 possible rebellions of the Bosniaks in Banja Luka where military forces

2 would have been involved, which would cause casualties and material

3 destruction. And the Serbian army really required them at the front lines

4 because they were stopped at all the front lines, especially at the

5 corridors, especially in the direction of Jajce, where it suffered

6 casualties. And I received reports about this occasionally. I thought at

7 the time that this was one of the reasons. And today I'm even more

8 convinced of this.

9 Furthermore, I felt that the Serb authorities did not wish to have

10 Banja Luka totally ethnically cleansed, especially not to carry out or to

11 witness massacre killings of the population. This was for political

12 reasons. And I believed that their highest political authorities assessed

13 that such an act would entail international intervention.

14 At a later stage, Mr. Stalic publicly aligned himself with radical

15 political views in regard to the territorial future of that area. He

16 aligned himself totally with the Serb nationalists and did something which

17 we hadn't -- he had never done in the past. He tried to take part in all

18 the religious festivities which had an impact on the Serb population.

19 Through his public acts, he was obviously drawing public attention to the

20 formation of an exclusively Serb army. And as things escalated, he became

21 increasingly explicit in this respect and publicly stated that Serbs and

22 Croats -- that Croats and Bosniaks, actually, had to struggle with the

23 Serbs if the Europeans were to attack the Serbs or they cannot survive

24 amongst the Serbs.

25 Q. Thank you.

1 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, this is a convenient time for me to

2 break now, if you wish. I only have -- just to inform the Court and

3 counsel, I have some questions about Mr. Brdjanin, and then I will

4 complete my examination, I think, within about 15 minutes. I've got 15

5 minutes of direct examination remaining.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: After that, Mr. Ackerman, would you be in a position

7 at least to start with the basic introductory questions that you have

8 prepared for the witness on cross-examination?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: I had not planned to, but if there's going to be

10 that much time remaining, I can do the best I can --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Either you or Mr. de Roux. I mean, you could sort

12 this out.

13 MR. ACKERMAN: We will.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: If we could utilise the time remaining, that would

15 be appreciated.

16 In the meantime, just for the record purposes, I had the

17 transcript of the hearing of the 21st January brought to me with regard to

18 what I -- what we had agreed. And I am on record here as having said:

19 "So we'll plan to resume on the 13th, unless I have indications that this

20 would be better -- that it would be better to resume on the 14th. But

21 definitely it will be either the 13th or the 14th. For the moment, it's

22 the 13th."

23 So that seems to be the position as we had agreed upon it. Yes.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: That's the younger mind at work. You remember

25 correctly, and I didn't.

1 JUDGE AGIUS: It's machinery at work.

2 Yes, Mr. de Roux.

3 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Mr. President, to avoid ambiguities,

4 I must tell the Court that I will not be present on the 13th because I

5 will be in hospital then, and I think I shall return on the 14th.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I thank you, Mr. de Roux. This is how it

7 should be. However, please do make sure that your co-counsel is present.

8 It's very important. Otherwise -- my message yesterday -- if it wasn't

9 clear enough, I will repeat it today. Don't ever put this Trial Chamber

10 in a position where accused -- your client will stand up and says, "I

11 don't want the hearing to continue today because I am not assisted by the

12 counsel and co-counsel assigned me." There I will fall on you, and you'll

13 never know what hit you. So it's -- but otherwise, as long as we do

14 things as they should, there will be no problems.

15 So we will resume in 25 minutes' time. I understand that you will

16 conclude your examination-in-chief and that either Mr. Ackerman or

17 Mr. de Roux will commence the cross-examination. I thank you.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

21 Bring in the witness, please.

22 Yes, Mr. Krzic, counsel, Mr. Koumjian, for the Prosecution will

23 resume his cross-examination -- his examination-in-chief.

24 MR. KOUMJIAN: Thank you, Your Honour. If I could just mention,

25 Mr. Cayley asked me to ask the Trial Chamber for about ten minutes at the

1 end of today's session to address some issues with the Court regarding

2 scheduling and other matters.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: No problem.

4 MR. KOUMJIAN:

5 Q. Mr. Krzic, did you ever meet Radoslav Brdjanin or see him in

6 person?

7 A. Yes, I did, on several occasions.

8 Q. Can you describe those occasions where you saw Mr. Brdjanin in

9 person?

10 A. It usually took place in the building of the municipal assembly or

11 in the Home of Culture where these sessions, the sessions of the municipal

12 assembly, were held. Direct meeting with him perhaps took place on

13 several occasions. I remember that the first time was when it was the

14 Orthodox New Year or Christmas. This also took place in the Dom Kultura,

15 the Home of Culture, where the SDS party had organised a reception.

16 Another close encounter was in the Hotel Bosna, with the co-president of

17 the Security Council, Mr. Vance Owen.

18 Q. You're speaking about the Vance-Owen delegation which came to

19 Banja Luka to discuss a possible solution to the crisis in Bosnia; is that

20 correct? That would be Cyrus Vance and Lord Owen?

21 A. That's correct.

22 Q. Was that in 1992?

23 A. Yes, it was.

24 Q. Can you describe where it was that you saw Mr. Brdjanin in

25 relation to the Vance-Owen delegation trip to Banja Luka?

1 A. I saw Mr. Brdjanin on the first floor, in the lounge of the hotel,

2 which is completely open. It is not partitioned. Not only Mr. Brdjanin

3 but Karadzic, Kupresanin, all the heads, all the highest ranking heads of

4 the authorities at that time. I can't remember whether Mrs. Plavsic and

5 Mr. Koljevic were there at the time. I saw Mr. Brdjanin when I entered,

6 speaking with the co-president, and then during a pause when Mr. Vance

7 sent me to call my collaborators, my colleagues from the municipal

8 assembly, which is about 100 metres from there, and I then approached the

9 secretary of the municipality, Mr. Tihic, and asked him that he personally

10 or someone else call some of the people from the -- of the leading -- of

11 the leaders in the municipality, that Mr. Brdjanin suddenly got up, came

12 between me and Mr. Tihic, and he was suggesting that he didn't support my

13 request. Then Mr. Vance's personal secretary appeared. I approached

14 him. I spoke to him and said that they wouldn't listen to me and that

15 they wouldn't call the other members of the delegates. That was the

16 meeting I'm talking about.

17 Q. Thank you. Just to clarify, you were going to attempt to arrange

18 a meeting between members of the Muslim community, representatives and

19 leaders, with Mr. Vance; is that correct?

20 A. It's not completely correct. I wasn't trying to organise it. But

21 the meeting with representatives of the SDA party, so not of the entire

22 Bosniak community but only the members of the SDA party, and myself, this

23 meeting was requested by Mr. Vance and Mr. Owen, but when I was received

24 by them, I asked them to call some other members of the executive

25 committee of the SDA because I thought that this was necessary for such a

1 conversation.

2 Q. Do you see Mr. Brdjanin in court today?

3 A. Yes, I see him here.

4 Q. Can you just point out where he's sitting now.

5 A. Do I indicate that with my finger or how?

6 Q. Can you tell us who he's sitting next to or where he's sitting.

7 A. Mr. Brdjanin is sitting next to General Talic. He is on his right

8 side.

9 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Brdjanin on television or in other forms of

10 media?

11 A. Yes, I saw him on television many times. And on several

12 occasions, I heard him speaking on Banja Luka radio.

13 Q. Do you recall any of the statements that you heard Mr. Brdjanin

14 make on television or radio?

15 A. As far as I can remember, Mr. Brdjanin was -- could be heard in

16 the media after he had been elected as the president of the SDA party in

17 Celinac, or as far as I can remember, the elections for the -- to the main

18 council of the SDA -- SDS. He appeared very often. But what is important

19 is that there was always a certain political edge to his appearances. And

20 for our Bosniaks what is very important is that he made continual threats

21 against the non-Serbian population.

22 Q. Can you assist the Judges of this Trial Chamber and try to tell us

23 your best recollection of the words that Mr. Brdjanin used and what you --

24 and why you feel that these constituted threats.

25 A. First of all, I failed to say that Mr. Brdjanin in our personal

1 meetings -- when we would meet personally, he would never even greet me.

2 But that's not important now.

3 But if we're talking about the vocabulary that he used, the words

4 that he used in his interviews, whether he was being interviewed on his

5 own or whether he was with others, his range of vocabulary was such that

6 this was Serbian territory and that everything that the Serbian army

7 seized would remain in the hands of the Serbs, it would be their property,

8 and that there was no life for non-Serbians, apart from a negligible

9 number. And in Banja Luka, this was between a thousand and 2.000 people,

10 not even 1 per cent.

11 In certain stages -- at certain stages, he made some very

12 dangerous remarks, dangerous statements, to the effect that the

13 non-Serbian population were worms, lice, insects that had to be trodden

14 on. He condemned Serbs who did anything to facilitate the survival or

15 even the departure from Banja Luka of the non-Serbian population.

16 A well-known remark of his, which is when he attacked the Serbians

17 who had enabled Bosniaks to obtain false documents in order to leave Banja

18 Luka -- at one point in time, it was impossible for non-Serbs to leave

19 Banja Luka -- he said that this was a crime being committed by such

20 Serbs. But in the end he justified it because he said there will be less

21 non-Serbs in this area in the end. He said this publicly.

22 Furthermore, he would sometimes say that the Bosniaks and Croats

23 were subversive elements. Such a statement -- it could be said that we

24 were -- that we could be -- he didn't make a distinction between people,

25 between their age -- on the base of their age, their sex, and on the base

1 of whether certain people had been prominent in certain situations. You

2 can imagine what his positions were. Such statements, in our opinion,

3 represented the threat of death.

4 Q. These statements that you're talking about, are these statements

5 that you personally heard Mr. Brdjanin make on the television or radio?

6 A. I heard some of the statements personally, and some of them I read

7 in the newspapers. What I heard from other people, I don't think it's

8 necessary to mention that because the register is more or less the same.

9 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I have a document that has been

10 marked -- pre-marked P462A for the English translation and B for the

11 original in B/C/S. It is indicated it's from the Party of Democratic

12 Action, Banja Luka, dated 28 August 1992. It appears to be sent to the

13 Embassy of Bosnia-Herzegovina to the United Nations in New York, addressed

14 to Mr. Muhamed Sacirbey personally. And it indicates a short report of

15 events, beginning at the first paragraph: "Yesterday, 27th August 1992 an

16 interview was held on Banja Luka TV."

17 Q. Mr. Krzic, you've been handed a copy of this document, 462. Can

18 you first tell us who wrote this document.

19 A. I wrote it.

20 Q. The first paragraph of this document discusses a television show

21 on Banja Luka TV. Do you recall this television show?

22 A. Of course I do, but I couldn't -- I'm not in a position to

23 reproduce it in its entirety at the moment.

24 Q. When you wrote this document, was the -- were the events that you

25 had seen on the television show fresh in your memory?

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1 A. Yes. Because that very same evening, I made some notes, and this

2 document was sent to the authorities on the following day.

3 Q. Can you read through this document and tell me if you find it to

4 be, to the best of your recollection today, an accurate record of what you

5 saw on the television on the 27th of August, 1992.

6 A. Yes, it's an accurate record.

7 Q. Mr. Krzic, given all of the comments by Mr. Brdjanin that you have

8 told us about today, in your opinion, did these comments have an effect

9 upon the feelings of the non-Serb population regarding their security in

10 Banja Luka?

11 A. Absolutely. There is no doubt about that. Not only did it create

12 a feeling of insecurity, but we thought that this was also an open

13 invitation to potential criminals, an open invitation to them to freely do

14 what they had already been doing.

15 Q. When you say "what they had already been doing," can you, for the

16 record, specify what you're talking about?

17 A. I'm thinking of all the acts of terrorism which had been

18 perpetrated, from simple beatings, arrests, killings, rape, looting,

19 expulsion.

20 Q. Did these remarks, public remarks, by Mr. Brdjanin, facilitate the

21 removal of the non-Serbian population from the region?

22 A. I don't know what sort of implications it had, in terms of the

23 practical implementation of the measures by the Serbian authorities, but I

24 do know that there were additional -- there was an additional burden on

25 the non-Serbian population in the sense that some things were being

1 encouraged and having them removed, deported, was being encouraged.

2 MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honours, I have no further questions of this

3 witness. However, I do have one document, 449; we previously provided

4 only the translation, and I do have the original B/C/S version which has

5 been marked P449B. Just for the record again, this is a -- indicates --

6 I'm trying to translate quickly, in my limited capacity, from the

7 original, but it's from the SDA party, Banja Luka, dated September 30th,

8 1992, to the Bosnian mission at the United Nations, and the ERN number

9 02098593. May this document, in the original B/C/S, be marked P449B and

10 will the Trial Chamber accept that, please?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: So I understand you have finished your direct

12 examination?

13 MR. KOUMJIAN: Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I was -- Mr. Ackerman and Mr. de Roux --

15 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am -- if the

16 Chamber agrees, I am ready to start with the cross-examination.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: That is precisely what I was going to suggest, that

18 since you are not going to be here on the 13th, that you would commence

19 the cross-examination, the first cross-examination, and then Mr. Ackerman

20 will follow afterwards. Hopefully, between today and tomorrow, I would

21 expect you to finish your cross-examination.

22 Mr. Ackerman?

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Might I suggest, before we begin, that Mr. Cayley

24 take up what he says is a ten-minute thing? Because those always turn out

25 to be 15 or 20 minute things. If we can go past 1.45, that's not a

1 problem. If we can't, he probably should be permitted to have his say and

2 make sure we have ample time to deal with it. That's up to Your Honours.

3 That's just a suggestion.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can actually start with the -- that would

5 entail the witness having to go out and having to come in again, so I

6 would prefer Mr. de Roux to start with the cross-examination now.

7 Restrict, please, your cross-examination to the preliminaries, and then

8 obviously you will go into more detail tomorrow when the witness will be

9 here with us again, and then you will have the -- roughly you have a

10 quarter of an hour, 15 minutes.

11 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. de Roux:

13 Q. Mr. Krzic, you were the President of the SDA in Banja Luka in 1991

14 and 1992. Could you tell us in brief what the programme was, or the

15 objective, at least, of the SDA during this period?

16 A. Yes. I was the President, as you say. The objectives of the SDA

17 were contained in the -- its programme. Would you like me to mention some

18 of them now?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. I will mention the ones that I can remember the best. One of the

21 objectives was to help the development of democracy in Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina, that is to say in the former Yugoslavia, and, as part of this

23 objective, to democratically secure, and to assist in the normal

24 development of, a democratic society, and the accent was especially on the

25 Bosniak population, which up until then did not have the possibility, the

1 full possibilities, of developing in that direction. That was one of our

2 objectives.

3 Another one was that homeland, Bosnia and Herzegovina, which was

4 also the homeland of other peoples, and that all the citizens of Bosnia

5 and Herzegovina should be equal and have equal rights. Naturally, I am

6 speaking in very general terms, and I can't be very precise, but these

7 were certain positions which --

8 Q. But your party had certain religious aspects, should we say?

9 A. No. But one of its positions was that we should -- that we would

10 respect the religious convictions of people. This was emphasised because

11 we had just come out of a communist system where the reverse was the case,

12 there was pressure, and there was not much freedom for religious

13 expression. But we didn't have any religious symbols. Even our name, as

14 you can see, doesn't suggest anything of the kind.

15 Q. What was the influence of Mr. Izetbegovic's thoughts on the party?

16 A. I think that Mr. Izetbegovic, acting within our political group,

17 in the course of the foundation of the party, while the party was being

18 founded, he was a fairly -- he wasn't a very well-known figure. He was

19 perhaps known to the population as someone who had been expelled from the

20 system at the time, as a victim of the system at that time, because of his

21 religious convictions. But only at a later date, having read his works,

22 only then was it possible to say that Mr. Izetbegovic grew in stature, his

23 image grew in stature.

24 I cannot personally say that Mr. Izetbegovic exerted an influence

25 in any sense, exerted a particular influence on the formation of the party

1 in Banja Luka, and especially not on the way in which it operated. If

2 there was any kind of influence, it might have been an influence that was

3 exerted over certain members of the SDA, like Mr. Filipovic, Professor

4 Muhamed Filipovic, or an influence over Zulfikarpasic, Mr. Zulfikarpasic.

5 It is possible that these members, at the time that division was being

6 created within the SDA, at a time when the MBO organisation was formed, it

7 is possible that one of those members joined that organisation. Finally,

8 the SDA party in Banja Luka, the first president, who was elected by

9 acclamation, Hamza Mujagic, joined the MBO party.

10 Q. Did you -- have you personally read his book, "The Declaration on

11 Islam"? I'm talking about Mr. Izetbegovic's book.

12 A. Fortunately, I have not read it. I didn't read it until very

13 late, maybe that was in 1994, I can't remember the exact year, but I think

14 I read it -- I think in the spring of 1992, when I was visiting Sarajevo,

15 I visited, to the extent that this was possible in a couple of days, I

16 read his work, "Islam Between the East and the West," that is, "Islam, a

17 Bridge Between the East and the West."

18 Q. Thank you. For a long time, you were a militant in the Communist

19 League. You played a role within that party. So one might think that you

20 were in favour of the Federation of Yugoslavia, that you had been educated

21 with this idea of a federal Yugoslavia in mind. What made you adhere to,

22 let's say, this independence movement?

23 A. What you have just said corresponds to what I said earlier on

24 about my previous political involvement, except for the fact that I

25 entered the Communist League of Yugoslavia at quite a -- at a fairly late

1 date, and I remained in that league for a short period of time, in fact.

2 I also said that the reason -- the main reason for leaving the

3 Communist Party was the fact that -- the concept of a big nationalist idea

4 was more and more prevalent in the Communist Party.

5 As an example, I will mention, when I entered the Communist Party,

6 there was a principle - it was almost an axiom - according to which all

7 positions and responsibility in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in companies, in

8 institutions, in society, in sports clubs too, and in cultural

9 institutions, in such institutions it was important to respect the

10 so-called national key, which in general terms corresponded to the

11 composition of the population of Bosnia and Herzegovina. We respected

12 this, and it was a symbol for us which told us that we were all equal

13 citizens in Yugoslavia.

14 I personally supported Yugoslavia as a state from this position:

15 as a state which consisted of several republics. However, with the

16 decline of communism, or rather, when these ideas of a greater Serbia were

17 being put forward and at a stage when the central communist -- when the

18 central authorities -- when the federal representatives of the Communist

19 Parties, which includes their representatives in the state organs, when

20 this negative aspect became apparent here too, when it became apparent

21 that at the level of the Presidency, there was a movement for a greater

22 Serbia, when it was obvious that the Presidency of Yugoslavia did not

23 respect the equality of all peoples and all republics, when it became

24 obvious that provocations at mass meetings at which greater Serbian

25 statements would be made, when this became obvious and we saw that they

1 were turning Yugoslavia into a dungeon for the people -- although I know

2 that Bosniaks in the former Yugoslavia were not quite equal -- it was only

3 then, it was only at that stage that my positions changed and I became --

4 I started to support the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina. But I

5 wasn't an elected representative, so I couldn't participate in this, in a

6 body of any kind.

7 Q. Do you believe the attempt to change Yugoslavia into a dungeon was

8 after the death of Marsal Tito?

9 A. No. I mentioned earlier on that this idea had evolved earlier on,

10 ten years prior to Tito's death. This was quite evident that President

11 Tito had failing health and that he was obviously losing his leadership

12 role on strategic matters and decisions within Yugoslavia. He had not

13 prepared the country for democratic changes.

14 Q. Well, let us not speak of history any more, because we have

15 cleared up certain issues in that respect --

16 JUDGE AGIUS: I think I would -- if it's convenient for you,

17 Mr. de Roux, I would stop here, so that we dedicate the next ten minutes

18 to organisational matters. And you will be able to resume your

19 cross-examination tomorrow.

20 In the meantime, the witness will remain in the same position he

21 is now.

22 Kindly be present here tomorrow morning at 9.00 so that the

23 cross-examination by Defence teams will take place.

24 I think the witness can leave the room

25 [The witness stands down]

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Krzic.

2 Yes, Mr. Cayley.

3 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Your Honour. I'd like to very briefly

4 raise three matters with the Chamber. The first is in respect of

5 witnesses for next week.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

7 MR. CAYLEY: The timing that has being given by my learned

8 colleagues for the Defence, Mr. Ackerman believes he will take the best

9 part of a session. I'm not sure whether Mr. de Roux gave a similar

10 indication. They've already made it clear to you, and I accept that, that

11 cross-examination is often difficult to plan how long it's going to take,

12 but that may leave us with one session or part of a session, depending on

13 how long the cross-examination.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Very likely, in fact.

15 MR. CAYLEY: We will, for the reasons you stated yesterday, have

16 to call Mr. Inayat in respect of the documents for the Banja Luka

17 collection. What I'm asking you is whether or not you wish us to bring

18 another witness, another, in fact, Bosnian witness who will effectively

19 start his evidence on Thursday and then have to return to Bosnia to be

20 brought back again on Sunday, or stay here for those three days, to

21 commence his testimony again on the following Monday. We can do that, but

22 I simply bring it to your attention to explain to you the difficulties.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You are doing the right thing to bring this up

24 to the Chamber's attention. I personally -- but I obviously will consult

25 the other two Judges. I personally do not see any sense in bringing the

1 witness on Thursday not even knowing whether that witness will be giving

2 evidence on that day and then having him return to wherever he is coming

3 from and then brought again to The Hague on Monday. I don't think it

4 makes sense.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think my colleagues are in agreement with what

7 I have just stated.

8 What I would suppose is that -- have Mr. Inayat prepared, assuming

9 that there will be time for his evidence, because anything could happen.

10 We could not finish the cross-examination. As I take it, Mr. de Roux

11 requires a full session and Mr. Ackerman requires a full session plus a

12 part of another, so more or less we're talking of a full day -- a full

13 session tomorrow, then a full session on Wednesday of next week, part of

14 Thursday. And that is if everything goes smoothly, as planned. If the

15 witness takes too long to answer questions or if the witness is made to

16 ask -- to answer questions which are in themselves provocative of further

17 cross-examination, I would anticipate that we could easily go until the

18 end of Thursday. So bringing a witness, I think, is -- doesn't make

19 sense. It's not a practical -- let's leave it at that.

20 MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. We'll proceed on that

21 basis.

22 The next matter I'd like to raise with the Court is that of

23 documents, again. The Banja Luka collection consists of over 400

24 documents, as you've already seen from the copies that Your Honours have

25 in your possession. As I indicated to the Court earlier this week, my

1 learned friends from the Defence have already given indication of those

2 which they object to. The vast majority of the documents that are

3 objected to -- and I've counted them. It's 71. There are other

4 categories, but the biggest category consists of 71 documents, which are

5 objected to in terms of admission of those documents. The admission into

6 evidence at all of those documents is objected to upon the basis of lack

7 of signatures or stamps or because they do not come from a reliable

8 source, which then, of course, triggers the witness having to come in and

9 explain where we got those documents from.

10 I still sense, Your Honours, a sort of lack of clarity of thought

11 between the Defence, probably on my part as well, about this whole issue

12 of the distinction between admissibility and probative value. And I know

13 you did state that you would issue at some stage a written decision on

14 this matter, on documentary evidence. And I would simply respectfully say

15 that I think that would be extraordinarily helpful, if we had a written

16 decision to look to when this issue arises, which it will constantly arise

17 in the course of the trial, because some of the other categories that are

18 identified here, objections as to authenticity -- and authenticity from my

19 understanding of the previous decision goes to weight and probative

20 value. It doesn't go to admission of the documents.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: You are correct, Mr. Cayley. Actually, what I have

22 done is that I have handed to one of my legal officers the points that I

23 dealt with when I gave the -- when we gave the oral decision earlier on

24 last week, with the understanding that they had to -- the legal team then

25 had to elaborate a written decision for us to go through and make sure

1 that it is in conformity with the oral decision that was handed down last

2 week.

3 These points, as you rightly point out, are included in -- and

4 will definitely feature in the written -- in the written decision.

5 Definitely this Trial Chamber is attaching to this matter great

6 importance, and that is why, rather than leaving it as an oral decision,

7 we are incorporating it in a written one, because it will be there and it

8 will supposedly guide you. But, however, if I need to repeat the point

9 again - and I would be prepared to repeat it ad nauseam - please do not

10 confuse the initial stage of admission of documents for the purposes of

11 evidence with the stage of going into the probative value or the

12 relevance.

13 It is obvious that at the initial stage, when either you, as

14 Prosecutor, or Mr. Ackerman or Maitre de Roux, as counsel for either one

15 or the other of the accused in this trial, comes forward with a document

16 to which there is an objection, a document which is disputed, at that very

17 early stage, what the Trial Chamber will go into is not -- is nothing else

18 but whether there are, on a prima facie basis, what has previously been

19 referred to as indicia of reliability. If we are definitely looking at a

20 fake document, a document which, on the face of it, very obviously cannot

21 be a reliable document, has absolutely no indicia of reliability, then

22 obviously, that will be taken into account and that, even at that very

23 early stage, it will not be admitted in evidence.

24 However, as I tried to explain yesterday, if I remember well - or

25 not yesterday, on Friday - the position as you should consider it as

1 regulating our future -- our work presently and in future is the

2 following: If there is a document to which an objection has been

3 communicated to you, then you should provide, as early as possible, even

4 before the Trial Chamber is made aware of the existence of this document,

5 you should provide a chart or a list, which I understand will be prepared

6 with the help of Mr. Inayat, indicating the source of this document. Now,

7 it is obvious that if there is no source, the question of admissibility,

8 even at that very early stage, can present you with some difficulties. If

9 there is a source, then the Defence, or it could be you for that matter,

10 will have a clear indication of what the source is, and the moment it is

11 put in front of the three Judges forming -- constituting this Trial

12 Chamber, we would be in a position to know whether, as far as we are

13 concerned, we would require evidence from anyone to give us details,

14 because it could well be that on the basis of what we have already

15 decided, both Mr. Ackerman and Maitre de Roux will not raise any

16 complaints any further, will just have it on record that they still object

17 to the admission of those documents, those documents would still be

18 admitted because, on the face of the record, there is a source indicated,

19 and in the absence of an apparent reason, at least, why we should doubt

20 the credibility and reliability of that source, we would admit that

21 document, and the story commences from there or continues from there.

22 I thought we had made ourselves clear enough. Obviously, I may

23 not have been as clear as I thought I had been. However, this is how we

24 should move. And I also made it clear that at this very early stage, I

25 was reserving the right, to whichever party is objecting or disputing the

1 reliability or the authenticity of those documents, to cross-examine or

2 ask to cross-examine Mr. Inayat, or whoever it will be, limitedly, to the

3 reliability of that source, certainly not as to the content, relevance or

4 probative value of those documents. Those obviously were -- those

5 elements will come into play at a later stage.

6 But at the very early stage of admission -- deciding to admit

7 these documents, this is what you have to worry about: Provide the

8 corresponding, the other, party, with at least an indication of the

9 source, making it possible for the other party and for the Trial Chamber

10 to reach some preliminary -- make some preliminary ideas -- have some

11 preliminary ideas as to how reliable that source could be. If you are in

12 doubt, or if we are in doubt, then there are going to be problems. If the

13 source is like the source or similar to the sources that you had in the

14 case of the documents that were in the two binders that were made use of

15 by Dr. Donia in his evidence, then obviously there are not going to be

16 problems with regard to admissibility.

17 MR. CAYLEY: So, Your Honour, I understand you perfectly and --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: You will have a written decision obviously.

19 MR. CAYLEY: I understand you perfectly, but if I could just

20 clarify from the Defence perspective, because they do have a list

21 identifying the sources of these documents from the Banja Luka collection,

22 if their objection is based principally on lack of signature or stamps or

23 because the source is unreliable, then we will bring in Mr. Inayat to go

24 through those 70 documents that are disputed, explain to the court where

25 they come from and then he can be cross-examined on that evidence as to

1 the reliability of the source.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Not necessarily. Probably at that point in time,

3 the Trial Chamber will take Mr. Inayat in our hands and ask him to confirm

4 what is indicated as being the sources for each and every one of those 72

5 witnesses.

6 MR. CAYLEY: Documents.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Documents, sorry. You would not be expected to put

8 any questions yourselves to Mr. Inayat. It's up to the Defence if they

9 contest the source's reliability, on a prima facie basis, to cross-examine

10 Mr. Inayat on those 72 documents or on some of them or on none of them.

11 So that is the position. I think I had made it clear yesterday. I

12 apologise to you if I had not.

13 Yes, Mr. Ackerman? You're going to tell me that I had made myself

14 clear?

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think you have made yourself

16 abundantly clear, at least four times now.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: And I have never failed to understand what it is

19 your position is, and the entire Chamber's position is, with regard to

20 these documents. My learned colleagues don't like your ruling, and so

21 they keep bringing it up, hoping you will change it.

22 MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour, I seriously object to Mr. Ackerman

23 suggesting that I dislike or like something that this Court has decided.

24 I have here his fax in front of me where he is stating that he objects to

25 these documents because they don't come from a reliable source. That is

1 what I'm responding to. It's not whether I like or dislike a decision of

2 the Chamber. I'm simply doing my job.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, you can rest assured that this Chamber would

4 be very little troubled if it came to know that you are -- you don't like

5 its ruling. It won't make any difference. Anyway, we will proceed

6 according to that ruling. However, point taken, you were right in

7 objecting to the remark made by Mr. Ackerman.

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, let me just suggest --

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be short because we are keeping the

10 interpreters here.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: I will not say another word.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Maitre de Roux?

13 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Any further points?

15 MR. CAYLEY: No. Thank you, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: So we will adjourn until tomorrow. Tomorrow's

17 sitting is here in this same courtroom, at 9.00 sharp. I thank you.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

19 1.52 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,

20 the 6th day of February, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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