1 Monday, 25 February 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

5 [The accused entered court]

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, this is case number

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Brdjanin and Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Brdjanin.

10 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you hear me in a language that you can

12 understand?

13 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down. General Talic, good

15 morning to you. I put the same question. Can you hear me in a language

16 that you can understand?

17 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

18 Yes, I can hear new a language I understand.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down. Appearances for the

20 Prosecution?

21 MR. CAYLEY: May it please the Court, Your Honours, my name is

22 Cayley, appear on behalf of the Prosecutor with my colleague,

23 Ms. Richterova.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: You may sit down. Thank you and good morning, to

25 you. Appearances for Mr. Brdjanin?

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I am John Ackerman, I

2 appear with my co-counsel Milka Maglov and legal assistant Tania

3 Radosavljevic on behalf of Mr. Brdjanin.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. And appearances for General

5 Talic?

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your

7 Honour. I am Natasha Fauveau-Ivanovic I'm assisted by Mr. Fabien Masson

8 and I represent General Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Good morning to you. So before we

10 start, has any one of you Prosecution, Defence or accused want to raise

11 anything?

12 MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Your Honours. It's a housekeeping matter and

13 it's something that we have consulted with the Defence about and they are

14 in agreement with this. We have swapped the order of the next two

15 witnesses because the witness who was to testify has to be home in Bosnia

16 by Thursday, so Mr. Medic will be testifying first followed by

17 Mr. Dzonlic. The only condition which the Defence imposed or requested

18 was from Ms. Fauveau who stated that she would like her cross-examination

19 to begin tomorrow which I think quite frankly, with the natural order of

20 things, if Mr. Ackerman goes first, Ms. Fauveau will not be

21 cross-examining the witness until tomorrow so that should work out

22 perfectly.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Cayley. Mr. Ackerman?

24 MR. ACKERMAN: That was not my understanding of the agreement. My

25 understanding of the agreement was Ms. Fauveau was going first and I would

1 follow her and she would start in the morning. That was what I think the

2 agreement that was made with Ms. Korner was on Friday. Ms. Fauveau can

3 confirm that, I think.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau?

5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your

6 Honours, I was informed of a change of order of witnesses in Paris and I

7 don't have with me the file for the witness who will appear today.

8 Therefore, I did ask the Prosecutor if I could start tomorrow, but I had

9 said that I would be the first because this witness concerns my client

10 more than Mr. Ackerman's.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Cayley?

12 MR. CAYLEY: Well, Your Honour, the reality is if we finish our

13 examination-in-chief tomorrow, then with your leave, if the

14 cross-examination by both parties can commence tomorrow, then everybody

15 will be happy. I think it will probably go all morning, but you know

16 these things are difficult.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I think I have read over the weekend the

18 previous statements of the witness and it's quite possible that we don't

19 even finish the examination-in-chief today. It depends. Let's play it by

20 the ear and then we see. But I have taken into consideration what the two

21 Defence teams have stated and I think it's something that we can meet

22 with, without any difficulties at all. Okay. There is one further matter

23 I would like to -- you may sit down, Mr. Cayley, which I would like to

24 raise with you, Mr. Ackerman, which is more of a formality than anything

25 else. You will recall that just before we started this trial, you had

1 filed four or five motions asking for the delay in the hearing of evidence

2 of practically the first four or the first five witnesses. One concerned

3 Mr. Donia and there is no utility in discussing it any further now. The

4 other one was related to the second witness, Mr. Krzic. The third one,

5 Mr. Smailagic. They all have given evidence. And I suppose I could take

6 it from you that you have tacitly withdrawn those motions for all affects,

7 for all effects. Am I correct in assuming that?

8 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, you're correct in assuming that. I

9 must say that with regard to the witness that's being called this morning,

10 I sent a communication to the Prosecutor's Office, I believe, on Saturday,

11 informing them of attachments to the witness statement that I have in

12 B/C/S only that have not -- still not received English translations of

13 those attachments.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: How many attachments did you have? Because I only

15 had one and I think it was in both languages.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I think there are four or five documents that were

17 supplied with the witness statements. I haven't got the communication

18 with me but I think there were four or five. It was sent to Ms. Gustin.

19 And I mentioned in my letter that I'd have no problem if they were handed

20 to me this morning. I don't know if that will happen. I assume it will.

21 But it would seem that there must come a time, Your Honour, when the

22 Prosecution or the translation section gets caught up on these witnesses

23 so that we don't, with every witness, have untranslated documents supplied

24 with their witness statement. Because it does make it extraordinarily

25 difficult to prepare a proper cross-examination when I don't have the

1 proper translations. When they are a one-page document or something like

2 that, I can generally work it out in consultation with people that are on

3 my staff but it is becoming, I think, a problem that needs more attention

4 than it's getting.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Cayley?

6 MR. CAYLEY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. My understanding,

7 first of all we didn't actually receive the communication but that perhaps

8 is our fault and not Mr. Ackerman's but having just consulted with

9 Ms. Richterova, my understanding is that these documents are purely Rule

10 68 material and as you know, for Rule 68 material we have a constant and

11 ongoing obligation that never ceases. It's not part of our general

12 obligation of disclosure. For every witness each lawyer concerned with

13 the file goes through enormous quantities of material to discover material

14 that may even be very narrowly be Rule 68. It may hardly come within Rule

15 68 at all, but we regard that as a serious obligation and we hand it over.

16 It is apparently four documents. It's about nine pages, I can see one in

17 front of me here. It's -- I think there is one document here that's about

18 10 or 12 lines. Mr. Ackerman does have staff who work with him who speak

19 the language. I really can't see that it would take very long to read the

20 material through and decide whether or not they wish to use it in

21 cross-examination of the witness. We don't have a translation either of

22 this material. As you know, we have to be very cautious what we are

23 actually putting into the translation unit at the moment because of all

24 the delays so that's the position.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Cayley. I think we can move ahead

1 Mr. Ackerman and proceed.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: I think so. I just want the Chamber to understand

3 that Mr. Cayley's suggestion that I have staff that can help me is a bit

4 of a stretch. I have one person who is conversant in both B/C/S and

5 English and she was not here the entire weekend.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Ackerman. One final thing that

7 more or less I'm interested in knowing. We just had a suggestion last

8 time from you, Mr. Ackerman, that we should be even at this stage planning

9 ahead as kind of a schedule, however flexible it will be, between now and

10 the end of June or the end of July. And I suggested to you when

11 Ms. Korner was here to try and have initial meetings between you or

12 amongst you and then come back to us with some kind of concrete proposals

13 or suggestions. Has that happened?

14 MR. ACKERMAN: It hasn't, Your Honour, but I'll see that it's done

15 before this week is out.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: It's in your interest as well as in the interests of

17 the three of us so we can also plan ahead together with the other Judges

18 of Trial Chamber II in sharing the time available amongst ourselves.

19 So having promised that, General Talic, I see that Maitre de Roux

20 is not here today and neither is Maitre Pitron but forget about

21 Maitre Pitron for the time being. You have no objection that we continue

22 today with Madam Fauveau representing you?

23 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] No. I have no objection

24 whatsoever, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, General Talic. You may sit down and we

1 can bring in the witness -- he doesn't -- hasn't asked for any kind of

2 protection or whatever?

3 MR. CAYLEY: No, Your Honour, he has not.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Medic, the gentleman next to you is going to

6 give you a sheet of paper in which -- on which there is a solemn

7 declaration which you are kindly asked to read out before you can start

8 your testimony. Please go ahead.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

11 WITNESS: ADIL MEDIC

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE AGIUS: You may sit down. Good morning to you, Mr. Medic.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I am the Presiding Judge. My name is Judge Agius

16 and I am flanked by the two other judges in this case, Judge Janu to my

17 right, Judge Taya to my left. I take it that you will be giving evidence

18 in your own language while there will be others in this courtroom who will

19 be speaking in English or in French, and this would be translated to you

20 in your language or in a language that you understand. If at any time the

21 translation or interpretation is not forthcoming, or you have difficulty

22 in following what is being translated to you, please do not hesitate to

23 tell me, to draw my attention immediately.

24 Now, you have been summoned here to give evidence in this case

25 against Radoslav Brdjanin and General Talic. To your right there is the

1 team for the Prosecution. And this morning and probably for the rest of

2 the day, you will be examined, you will be questioned, by this team. To

3 your left there are two teams for the Defence. The front row is the

4 Defence team for Mr. Brdjanin and the back there is the Defence team for

5 General Talic.

6 The persons you are seeing here in front, in front of you, is the

7 Registry of the Trial Chamber, of the Tribunal, and they will be doing

8 registry work, monitoring exactly the proceedings of this sitting.

9 Mr. Cayley, who is going to conduct the examination-in-chief?

10 MR. CAYLEY: Ms. Richterova, my colleague, Your Honour, thank you.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richterova? Thank you.

12 Examined by Ms. Richterova:

13 Q. Mr. Medic, can you state your full name for the record?

14 A. My name is Adil Medic. I was born in Sanica, Kljuc municipality.

15 Q. When were you born?

16 A. On the 16th of January, 1943.

17 Q. How long did you stay in Kljuc municipality?

18 A. I completed elementary school there and then I went on to study in

19 Prijedor and after that, to Zagreb.

20 Q. I want only to hear the year when you left Kljuc municipality?

21 A. In 1958. And then I returned in 1967 and I worked for another

22 year and a half. So that I left in 1968 and went to Banja Luka.

23 Q. What is your nationality?

24 A. I'm a Bosniak.

25 Q. And what is your religion?

1 A. I'm of Islamic faith, a Muslim.

2 Q. Mr. Medic, you work for, Merhamet; is it correct?

3 A. I used to work for, Merhamet during the years of the war.

4 Q. Can you assist the Judges and tell them what Merhamet is?

5 A. It's a charity -- charitable organisation, organised mostly by

6 Bosniaks. There was an organisation at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina

7 which -- with branch offices in various towns, one of them being in Banja

8 Luka.

9 Q. When was Merhamet established?

10 A. In Banja Luka, the work of Merhamet was renewed on the 13th of

11 December, 1991, after several years of non-existence.

12 Q. Were there other humanitarian organisations in Banja Luka, let's

13 say, in 1992?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you state which one?

16 A. There was the Caritas organisation attached to the Catholic church

17 and there was Dobrotvor and the Kolo Srpskih Sestara within the Serb

18 people, as well as the Red Cross, which in the year of the war, in 1992,

19 already aligned itself with the Serb people so it no longer communicated

20 with the Bosniak or the Croat peoples.

21 Q. Did you cooperate with Dobrotvor and Kolo Srpskih Sestara?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Why didn't you cooperate with them?

24 A. Because, like the Red Cross, they didn't want it.

25 Q. Can you tell us whom Merhamet provided the humanitarian aid in --

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1 from the establishment, from the date when the Merhamet started operating?

2 A. Mostly to Bosniaks, but on the Merhamet list were also 4.500

3 non-Muslims, non-Bosniaks, mostly of Serb ethnicity.

4 Q. And the last question regarding Merhamet, how Merhamet was

5 organised? Were there some branches, sections, within the Merhamet

6 itself?

7 A. Merhamet did have sections or programmes so I headed the programme

8 in charge of camps. There was a programme for the collection of aid, for

9 the distribution of aid, and administration and also for the accommodation

10 of refugees. These were all sections.

11 Q. Mr. Medic, as a member of Merhamet, did you visit the Manjaca

12 camp? And please state only yes or no.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What was the impulse which made you to visit the camp?

15 A. After a conversation with, and invitation by General Talic and the

16 late mufti Halilovic, with a group of people I went to Manjaca for

17 negotiations.

18 Q. When did you go to Manjaca for the first time?

19 A. On the 18th of June, 1992.

20 Q. Who went with you to the Manjaca camp on the Merhamet side?

21 A. Professor Bajric Mehmet and attorney Amir Djonlic and the Hodza

22 or Imam Halilovic and Dr. Smajic was supposed to go but he was on duty so

23 he couldn't come.

24 Q. Were you accompanied by representatives of the army?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. What was the -- who went with you on the side of army?

2 A. The leader of the team in my opinion was Colonel Vlaso Tepsic.

3 Then there was Colonel in charge of the medical corps and assistant of

4 Mr. Talic, Dikic and when we got there, there was Lieutenant Colonel

5 Popovic. Lieutenant Colonel Hadzagic and another Lieutenant Colonel

6 whose name I cannot recall.

7 Q. Do you know who was -- who Lieutenant Colonel Bozidar Popovic was?

8 A. Bozidar Popovic was introduced as the camp commander.

9 Q. Did you know at that time who was -- who was in command of the

10 whole camp?

11 A. According to what was said, Bozidar Popovic was the Executive

12 Commander of the camp.

13 Q. Was the camp run by civilians or by army?

14 A. Exclusively by the military. They were all in uniform. I think

15 it was the military police.

16 Q. Do you know to which unit did they belong?

17 A. Judging by what I was able to learn at the time and later, they

18 belonged to the military security organ.

19 Q. By any chance, do you know which unit? Or which corps?

20 A. They certainly belonged to the 1st Krajina Corps.

21 Q. And did you know at that time who was the commander of the 1st

22 Krajina Corps?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Who was it?

25 A. General Momir Talic.

1 Q. When we are talking about Manjaca camp, do you know in which

2 municipality is -- Manjaca camp is located?

3 A. The municipality of Banja Luka, near the border or towards the

4 border with the municipality of Kljuc.

5 Q. Do you know what was Manjaca before it was transferred into the

6 camp?

7 A. You could say that there were two parts of Manjaca. The main part

8 was a military part. There was a military training ground there; that's

9 where men trained and where they did their military service. And the

10 other part was a former farm.

11 Q. I would like to show you a sketch which was premarked?

12 MS. RICHTEROVA: If Your Honour will allow me to show the witness

13 this sketch, which was premarked as Prosecutor's Exhibit 467.

14 Q. This sketch was previously disclosed with the witness number

15 7.77. However, witness produce the identical copy tomorrow. Can you tell

16 me -- can you tell us how did you obtain the copy of this sketch?

17 A. There is a municipal association of the camp detainees in Kljuc

18 and I obtained it from them.

19 Q. Does it reflect the reality, the real layout of the camp?

20 A. The main part of the camp is well shown but the attached

21 facilities cannot be seen, at least not all of them.

22 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can I ask you -- excuse me, can you put it on the

23 ELMO?

24 Q. And can you describe what did you see after you enter the camp?

25 Where did you enter the camp?

1 A. You take this route here and if I look towards myself, there were

2 auxiliary facilities and premises here. They were some sort of

3 administrative and economic facilities, one might say. So if you're

4 looking towards me. After the first part of the conversation had been

5 completed, we took this entrance and headed -- we passed by the barns

6 towards the open-air kitchen. We then entered these two barns here.

7 After we had visited them so to speak, then Colonel Tepsic said that the

8 third barn was identical and that we no longer had much time to speak and

9 that we had to return.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, can you point on that plan or on that

11 diagram there the third shed or the third shed that you did not visit?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's this one. It's the first one

13 from the entrance. We didn't visit this one here.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, registrar, please hand the witness a pen,

15 preferably in red or green or whatever. I will soon give him back to you

16 Ms. Richterova. I will just have him mark on this diagram which one is

17 the kitchen and which are the two sheds that he visited. I would like you

18 to mark with an arrow and the word "kitchen" "open kitchen" in your

19 language, the shed that you indicated to us earlier as being --

20 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and the two sheds that you visited, by

22 marking them "1" and "2".

23 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And next to the shed that you did not visit, please

25 put down number "3" and a "X" next to it, or number" 3" and a circle.

1 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's good enough. Thank you. Can you mark

3 the entrance to the camp, please?

4 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And can you put in your own language,

6 "Entrance" there, where you've just put the arrow?

7 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Richterova, you can take him

9 back. He is all yours.

10 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Your Honours.

11 Q. Now, I would like shortly to talk to you about the prisoners in

12 the camp. After you arrived to the camp, were you told who were the

13 prisoners in the camp?

14 A. I asked the officers a question and their reply was -- they

15 replied to this question. I asked them whether we were in the collection

16 centre, in Manjaca. Colonel Tepsic replied, "No, Mr. Medic we are in the

17 camp of prisoners of war, called Manjaca, and it's under the command of

18 the 1st Krajina Corps." And I made a note of this.

19 Q. Mr. Medic, when you were inside of the camp and when you were able

20 to see the prisoners, did you know any of them? Did you know personally

21 any of those people who were kept in the camp?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How and whom did you know?

24 A. In barn number 2, it was men from Sanica, my people from Sanica

25 were there, that's where I was born, and I think I recognised at least 300

1 to 350 men there since they were close relatives of mine, friends,

2 schoolmates, neighbours.

3 Q. Mr. Medic, after your visit to the Manjaca camp did you come to

4 your own conclusion about the status of these people?

5 A. It was possible to conclude as to their status, especially from

6 the conversation with the detainees because after having visited the

7 barns, they came out -- about seven detainees came out of each barn and it

8 was possible to talk to them beyond the fence. That's where I spoke to

9 them, in the presence of the officers who were there.

10 Q. My question was, and you are answering in details, but my question

11 was whether you conclude who really were or not really, I apologise, who

12 were these prisoners?

13 A. They were all in civilian clothing. They were often barefoot and

14 half naked. In my opinion, they were all civilians.

15 Q. Was there anybody else who would, during the time of your visits,

16 to Manjaca camp, confirm your observation?

17 A. The people who were with me in the delegation can undoubtedly

18 confirm this too.

19 Q. Did you ask about the ethnicity of the prisoners?

20 A. Yes. When I was speaking to the camp detainees I found out what

21 their ethnic membership was.

22 Q. Can you tell us, what was the ethnicity of people who were kept in

23 the camp?

24 A. They told me that about 15 per cent were Croats, and that 85 per

25 cent were Bosniaks. They only gave me percentages.

1 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, before I go any further, about

2 details about Manjaca camp, I would like to play a video which was already

3 exhibited and introduced by the investigator Mazhar Inayat and it's

4 Exhibit number P447. So can I ask the technician to put the video?

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In the meantime, before we do that, could you

6 kindly ask him to explain to us what the other four sheds in the

7 background are? One seems to be a -- not a kitchen but an open -- eating

8 area, I don't know. But perhaps he could give us some information,

9 whether he visited those sheds.

10 MS. RICHTEROVA: I will ask him.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Later.

12 MS. RICHTEROVA: If you do not mind, this is also a video which

13 will show Manjaca camp so I would like to ask Mr. Medic once we have the

14 video if he can make a comment and we can go back to the sketch.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

16 [Videotape played]

17 MS. RICHTEROVA: We can go.

18 Q. When you see Manjaca camp or whatever is familiar to you, please

19 state, and there is no sound.

20 A. I think this is a barracks.

21 Q. Please make any comment, because we do not have a sound here.

22 A. This should be the route of access. This is the entrance to the

23 Manjaca camp, this is also a route of access and a crossroads before the

24 entrance. Over there there is a tower or something like that. These are

25 the economic facilities. On the right -- this is to the right of the

1 entrance. This is the economic part, and the first facilities that were

2 shown were administrative premises where we negotiated. This is an

3 observation post. These should be the barns. The entrance to this barn

4 was at the front from here more or less.

5 Q. So is it the place where the prisoners were held?

6 A. This is what the barn looks like from the inside. In the middle

7 it' slightly elevated. And lower down it was lower. The detainees were

8 kept in all parts of the barn. This is a cover and this seems to be the

9 open kitchen. That's it. This should be another part of the barns

10 concerning which the Presiding Judge asked a question. These are all

11 barns but from a different angle.

12 Q. That's enough. There is -- we can stop the video now. Thank

13 you. What we saw on the video, does it reflect what is on the sketch?

14 A. You could say that these parts are the barns where the detainees

15 were but you can't see the administrative part and you can't see the

16 economic facilities or the farm facilities.

17 Q. I will ask the question which was suggested by Your Honour. Do

18 you know what were these sheds in the second part of the camp?

19 A. In the beginning, the barns at the rear were not filled, only

20 these three ones were, but after detainees from the municipality of

21 Prijedor or more precisely from Omarska and part of Sanski Most, they were

22 filled with them. And also with people from Kljuc who came at a later

23 date. They were in this second part of the barn so to speak and they were

24 organised according to the same principle as the first part, and a fence

25 was erected between these two parts.

1 Q. Thank you.

2 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I would only like to add that the

3 video which we saw a minute ago was taken in the year 2001 by the team of

4 the ICTY -- OTP.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Richterova.

6 MS. RICHTEROVA:

7 Q. Mr. Medic, now I want to talk about the life in Manjaca as you

8 were able to observe. Were you able to see the prisoners? Were you

9 allowed to see prisoners in the camp?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Were you allowed to talk to them?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Mr. Medic, describe the appearance of prisoners which you saw in

14 the camp.

15 A. First of all, I saw people in the clinic, in the same facilities

16 where we negotiated. There were two doctors there as well and they really

17 looked very pitiful but they were wearing white overcoats at the moment so

18 they appeared somewhat different. We then visited the open-air kitchen

19 and as I have already said, barn number 1 and barn number 2. On the 18th

20 of June, which is when the visit took place, the people already had a very

21 bad appearance, both physically and if one judges by the way they were

22 clothed and the conditions that they were living in.

23 Q. Did you see any injuries?

24 A. Yes. In the barn, I saw a man who was immobile, he was lying, he

25 was the only one lying, all the others had to stand up with their head

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1 bowed and their arms behind their backs. Muhamed Filipovic was lying and

2 he was immobile. I then saw Mr. Egerlic, whom I also knew. He had to

3 support himself on crutches. Then I saw several captains from the JNA and

4 they also had arms in bandages.

5 Q. Did you talk to Muhamed Filipovic?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Did you ask what happened to him?

8 A. Given that I knew him before the war too, yes. It's obvious that

9 I asked him. He said that these wounds had been inflicted when he was

10 beaten.

11 Q. Were you -- I think I don't need to ask this question this way,

12 because you have already answered during the video. The people were

13 accommodated in the barns; it's correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you go inside of these barns?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. Do you know --

18 A. Into barn number 1 and barn number 2.

19 Q. Do you know whether these people also slept in these barns?

20 A. Yes, they did.

21 Q. Did you -- did they have any beds?

22 A. No, they didn't.

23 Q. Did you see blankets?

24 A. Not everyone had a blanket, not even to put down on the bare

25 concrete, at least not at that point in time.

1 Q. Which they sleep on?

2 A. On concrete or on a blanket.

3 Q. Did you see running water in the camp which could be used by the

4 prisoners?

5 A. No. The barns didn't have any sort of facilities of that kind.

6 Q. Did you see such a facility anywhere else in the area where the

7 prisoners were kept?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you see toilets?

10 A. No, I didn't.

11 Q. Did you know what the prisoners used to relieve themselves?

12 A. At that time, they did it in so-called Kible pots, buckets which

13 they used to relieve themselves and later on they had some sort of field

14 toilets but that was only later.

15 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, now I would like to play another

16 video which we premarked as Prosecution Exhibit 468, and I would ask the

17 technician to play the video. It's a shot from news and, again, it

18 doesn't have almost any sound so I would like to ask the witness if he can

19 make comment what he see on the screen.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: May I ask you to repeat the origin of this video?

21 You said from news?

22 MS. RICHTEROVA: It's news, and it is Paddy Ashdown visit to

23 Manjaca camp and Kula camp.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Dating to when?

25 MS. RICHTEROVA: It's obviously shot sometime during the year 1992

1 but there is no specific date.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Richterova. You may proceed with

3 the playback of the video.

4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, do I understand correctly that it will

5 be played without the sound? Is that what Ms. Richterova told us? And if

6 not, I would request that it be played without the sound, without the

7 commentary that might go with it.

8 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yeah, I stated there the quality of the picture

9 and quality of the sound is very bad so we do not have the sound.

10 However, there are subtitles in B/C/S language. Is it problem?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it a problem with the Defence teams?

12 MR. ACKERMAN: I think as long as it's B/C/S subtitles that are

13 untranslated it's not a problem.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And Madam Fauveau?

15 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no problem with

16 that Your Honour.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: So we may proceed with the playback of the video.

18 Thank you.

19 [Videotape played]

20 MS. RICHTEROVA:

21 Q. So when you recognise something what you know, what you have

22 previously seen, please indicate.

23 A. This should be the interior of the stable in Manjaca. This is the

24 central part of the stable that is slightly higher than the rest. This is

25 Popovic, the Lieutenant Colonel, the one in uniform.

1 Q. Can we --

2 A. Unfortunately, the picture is not too good and these people are so

3 exhausted that I can't recognise any of them.

4 Q. Can we stop for a second? I know it's very bad copy but when you

5 see the people on these -- on the screen, did they differ from the people

6 you saw during your visit to Manjaca?

7 A. Yes. That is the picture.

8 MS. RICHTEROVA: We can go on.

9 [Videotape played]

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's Lieutenant Colonel now

11 Colonel Popovic.

12 MS. RICHTEROVA: I think we can stop here and, Your Honours have

13 idea about the Manjaca camp.

14 Q. Mr. Medic, you stated that you were allowed to speak to

15 prisoners. What did they tell you when you talked to them?

16 A. It appeared that in this group a born leader was Omer Filipovic

17 and he was the one who spoke most about the conditions in the camp.

18 Q. Mr. Medic, who was Omer Filipovic?

19 A. He was a teacher of history and geography. I don't know which was

20 his A subject and which his B. He was Vice-President of the municipality

21 in Kljuc, as a honorary post, and I think that he was the leader of the

22 MBO party in Kljuc.

23 Q. What did Omer Filipovic tell you and others at the time when you

24 were allowed to talk to them?

25 A. He mostly told us how things developed from the moment they were

1 registered onwards. The detainees when talking about registration, really

2 mean the beating they were exposed to upon arrival. That was the rule

3 more or less in all the camps. Then he told us that though there was --

4 there were so many of them they were beaten regularly, sometimes

5 selectively, sometimes non-selectively, and he showed his own bloodied

6 clothing. He recounted about poor food and bad treatment in general, and,

7 in particular, he and others emphasised the problem of hygiene or rather

8 lack thereof because there was no water, nor toilet facilities at all.

9 And another very prominent problem was the fact that they had been rounded

10 up arbitrarily, and they had had no chance to contact their families to

11 let them know that they were alive. Their appearance testified to what

12 Omer was telling us about.

13 Q. Mr. Medic, do you know what happened to Omer Filipovic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What happened to him?

16 A. On the 28th to the 29th of August, the night between the 28th and

17 the 29th of August, he passed away as a result of beatings, from the

18 consequences of beatings.

19 Q. How do you know about this?

20 A. On the 30th of August, one of the imams, his name was Abdulah, who

21 worked in Ferhadija in Banja Luka, he was at the new cemetery, to bathe

22 the deceased and he saw a hand peeking out from the blanket and on a note

23 attached to that arm were the words "Omer Filipovic." As this imam knew

24 Omer Filipovic personally, and I headed the camp programme, he immediately

25 came to see me and told me about it.

1 Q. What did you do with this information?

2 A. I went to the JNA club or army club in Banja Luka to the

3 commission for the search of missing persons and for funerals. That

4 wasn't its proper name but that was its function. And I asked if I could

5 collect the remains of Omer. However, I was informed there that in

6 addition to Omer, Esad Bender had also died, whom I really didn't know,

7 and who was Omer's friend from Kljuc.

8 Q. You said Manjaca -- did you learn the cause of death of Omer

9 Filipovic?

10 A. Yes. They showed me a death certificate, if you can call it that,

11 some kind of forms, in which death had been established but the causes

12 being unclear on those forms.

13 Q. Did you get in possession of other documents which would state

14 cause of death of Omer Filipovic?

15 A. Yes. At the pathology department, to show the family of Omer

16 Filipovic when his funeral would take place because after I had received

17 permission, because in Kljuc, they had tried to persuade Omer's wife, who

18 is a lawyer, that it was not true that Omer had been killed, and I showed

19 this to the family.

20 Q. Do you still have these documents?

21 A. No, because they seized them from me when I was arrested on the

22 1st of March, 1995.

23 Q. Mr. Medic, you mentioned that also Esad Bender died. Do you know

24 how Esad Bender died?

25 A. Under the same circumstances and in the same building in Manjaca,

1 according to the statement of detainees. They were beaten to death.

2 Q. After you left Manjaca camp on 18 of June, did you write report

3 about your findings during your visit of the Manjaca camp?

4 A. On five typed pages without spacing, as an educated person, I

5 compiled a report and handed it to the executive board of Merhamet. I

6 kept my handwritten version and that too was seized from me when I was

7 arrested on the 1st of March, 1995, when I was arrested.

8 Q. Did you inform about the findings in Manjaca camp any military

9 authorities?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Whom did you inform?

12 A. At a meeting, again in the army club, I personally informed

13 General Talic and two of his associates, Colonel Vukelic and Colonel

14 Selak.

15 Q. When was it?

16 A. On the 22nd of June, 1992.

17 Q. Was you there alone or did anybody else accompanied you?

18 A. There was a group of Bosniaks representing Merhamet in the first

19 place, the Islamic community and also the SDA party.

20 Q. Do you by any chance remember who was there on behalf of the SDA

21 party?

22 A. I think it was Mr. Hadzagic and I think also that Mr. Krzic was

23 there, because in those days, at least one of the two of them would attend

24 these meetings.

25 Q. Mr. Medic, were you a member of the SDA?

1 A. No. To crack a joke, I was twice, for one day each time, but I'm

2 not a member.

3 Q. Now, I would like you to focus on this meeting on 22nd of June,

4 1992. What was the main subject which was discussed at this meeting?

5 A. The subject was mainly to inform General Talic of the general

6 conditions in and around Banja Luka, which was the task of the other

7 members of the team. My task was to focus on information as to what I had

8 seen at Manjaca and what we had agreed on with the general's associates.

9 Q. So did you tell General Talic what you saw and heard in the

10 Manjaca camp?

11 A. What I have already told you, I conveyed at that meeting, too.

12 Q. Did General Talic make any comments to your report?

13 A. His conclusion was that in future, I, as the leader of that

14 section, would contact with Colonel Vukelic and Colonel Gojko Vujnovic,

15 that I should be in contact with the two of them so as to assist those

16 people in Manjaca to survive.

17 Q. Were you allowed to start delivering humanitarian aid to people

18 kept in the Manjaca camp?

19 A. Two days after that, with the first consignment or first truck of

20 supplies, I was already at Manjaca, with the permission of the security

21 organ of the 1st Corps.

22 Q. So just to summarise your answer to my previous question is, you

23 were given permission to start delivering; is it correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you -- how many times did you personally deliver the aid to

1 the camp?

2 A. My associates and myself went to Manjaca one plus 48 times. For

3 the first 15 times or so, I was there each time.

4 Q. So did you deliver personally the aid 15 times?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Did you need permission for each of these deliveries?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Who issued the permissions?

9 A. The security organ, a certain gentleman called Dasic. He was of a

10 lower rank. He may have been a Lieutenant or something like that, and he

11 would issue those permits, which said, "Permission for movement in the

12 zone of combat operations."

13 Q. When you say the security organ, do you mean military security

14 organ?

15 A. Certainly, yes.

16 Q. Mr. Medic, did you discuss either with military representatives or

17 the town authorities in Banja Luka the possible help of people -- to

18 people in other camps in the area of Krajina?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. With whom did you discuss this?

21 A. I mentioned the need for this at the meeting on the 22nd with

22 General Talic, but the explicit demand was made at a meeting in the

23 municipality on the 10th of July with the town mayor, Predrag Radic.

24 Q. Which camps did you had in your mind when you entered these

25 discussions with municipal authorities?

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1 A. I had in mind the Omarska, Keraterm and Trnopolje camps because a

2 representative of the army was present there, Colonel Gojko Vujnovic, and

3 a representative of the civilian regional police, Mr. Djuro Bulic, also a

4 high ranking official, I think that he was head of the public security

5 centre.

6 Q. Did you get permission to deliver humanitarian aid to these other

7 camps?

8 A. At that meeting, no one wanted to accept, nor admit, nor assume

9 responsibility for those camps so that I never received permission to

10 visit those camps.

11 Q. When you said that no one accepted the responsibility, does it

12 mean that they knew about the existence of these camps?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did they stated that they knew about the existence?

15 A. No one confirmed it but one could infer that from the

16 conversation.

17 Q. Mr. Medic, during the time when Merhamet was delivering

18 humanitarian aid to Manjaca -- maybe I can start like this: What

19 comprised this humanitarian aid? How -- in which cars, trucks, you

20 delivered this help?

21 A. The aid consisted of three components: Foodstuffs; clothing and

22 foot wear; and medicines. At first, for the first ten or so times, we

23 would deliver this by truck, which the detainees called the blue bird

24 because it brought them joy. Later on, we did so in a van.

25 Q. How would you describe the situation in Manjaca after you started

1 delivering the humanitarian aid? Did you manage to observe any changes?

2 A. There were visible psychological changes among the detainees

3 because of the awareness that someone cared for them, and that people knew

4 where they were and the probability was that they would survive regardless

5 of the circumstances. Perhaps the fact that at least at first most of the

6 detainees knew me personally also increased the degree of their

7 psychological safety that they felt.

8 Q. Did you have a control over the fate of the humanitarian aid,

9 whether everything what you delivered ended up with the prisoners?

10 A. I later learned that everything did not reach them, not even the

11 individual parcels that were addressed to individuals.

12 Q. When you say "later learned," when was it and from whom?

13 A. I would travel by convoy quite frequently to Zagreb and I learned

14 about this because in Zagreb I met people who were accommodated in

15 Karlovac, in temporary accommodation there, after they had left Manjaca.

16 Q. Mr. Medic, I will go back to my previous question which --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Richterova, whenever it's convenient.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Whenever it's convenient for to you stop --

20 MS. RICHTEROVA: I think we can stop right now. It's a very

21 convenient time.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I figured. I thank you. Okay, we will

23 resume in 25 minutes' time. We will resume at 5 to 11.00. Thank you. In

24 the meantime, Mr. Medic, may I ask you, please, to sign the document that

25 is on the ELMO, the diagram, the sketch you were referring to earlier?

1 Yes.

2 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Please be seated.

7 MS. RICHTEROVA:

8 Q. Mr. Medic, before we adjourned, I asked you the question which I

9 am going to repeat now. During the time you were delivering the

10 humanitarian aid to the Manjaca camp, to your knowledge, were any of the

11 prisoners released?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. When was it?

14 A. The first major release of prisoners took place on the 10th of

15 July, 1992.

16 Q. Were you informed about the release of this group of prisoners?

17 A. On the 9th in the evening, I received a telephone call at home

18 from an officer. According to his voice, he was from Manjaca, an

19 investigator, if that's the word. I had met him but I had never found out

20 what his name was. He told me to come the following day to collect 105

21 men in Manjaca. Among them there were some men who were under 18 and

22 older men over 60 and a certain number of sick people.

23 Q. Did he personally stated that there were people under the age of

24 18 and over 60?

25 A. Yes. He said that we should take such men away from Manjaca.

1 Q. Were you present when they were released from the Manjaca camp?

2 A. As on the critical day, the 10th of July, I already had a meeting

3 with Mr. Predrag Radic, my associates went to collect these men, on two

4 occasions. They went to fetch them in two lorries.

5 Q. Did you meet with these people subsequently?

6 A. When I returned from the meeting, both deliveries had arrived in

7 front of the Gazemferija Mosque and my associate who was involved in that

8 procedure had been arrested.

9 Q. So what did you do when you learned that your associate was

10 arrested?

11 A. First of all, I had to go to some kind of unit in that field, in

12 the Mejdan Dom in order to have him released and it turned out that they

13 didn't have the operative information but they saw that something had

14 happened. Naturally they first contacted the man who was in charge of

15 that affair because a large number of citizens had gathered there.

16 Naturally they released him after I had provided them with an explanation.

17 Q. Mr. Medic, you are using the term "they." Whom do you refer as

18 "they"?

19 A. The people who had detained my associate. They were military

20 personnel. I don't know if it was the police but they were located in the

21 Mejdan Dom. They had some sort of administration there. It was near

22 Gazemferija, about 100 metres from there.

23 Q. After your associate was released did you meet with the people who

24 were released from the Manjaca camp?

25 A. Yes. I had to have them all assigned. I found accommodation for

1 the majority of them in private houses and the remaining 30 men were

2 accommodated in the Gazemferija Mosque. I had to have exact records for

3 all of them listing their location and their first and last names. And I

4 had to provide these records to that group of the police or the army to

5 enable them to monitor their movement.

6 Q. Were you aware about the age of those people?

7 A. A small group, I think there were six or seven of them, they were

8 under 18 years of age. The youngest one was 16 years old. Most of them

9 were over 60. They were between 60 and 68 years old and there was a small

10 group, five or six men, who were sick.

11 Q. Did you know any of these people personally?

12 A. I knew two of them very well. Two old people, one was 82 years

13 old, his name was Smail Botonic from Biljani village in Sanica, the Kljuc

14 municipality, and Rasid Harambasic, known as Dzogo. He was a cousin of

15 mine from Sanica. He was 84 years old.

16 Q. You mentioned there were also sick people. Did you see them? Do

17 you know what happened to them after they were released from the camp?

18 A. One of them died that very same night as a result of his

19 maltreatment, and another one was epileptic, seriously ill, and an

20 exchange was made.

21 Q. When you say an exchange was made, does it relate to these sick

22 people or to all who were released that day?

23 A. Some returned to their homes. The elder people just wanted to

24 return home. So in the territory of the Kljuc municipality, with the

25 agreement of the president of the municipality in Kljuc, my former friend

1 Jovo Banac, I sent 12 of them, including the people I've mentioned, Rasid

2 and Smail. Unfortunately, out of those 12, nine of them were killed in

3 some sort of a cleaning operation in the field. The others were taken out

4 through the Red Cross, taken out of Banja Luka. And some were sent to

5 Travnik for an exchange, as they called it.

6 Q. When you said that they were killed, who told you, or how did you

7 learn about the fact that they were killed?

8 A. There were various sources of information but as far as Smail

9 Botonic is concerned, I found this out from Amidjic [phoen], from an uncle

10 of mine. He was Smail's uncle. Smail was his uncle.

11 Q. And regarding the others?

12 A. As far as the others are concerned, I found this out as people

13 arrived, people who had survived Sanica or when I went to Zagreb and I

14 later learned that I might have problems because of this, because of the

15 fact that these people were killed, and this does not mean that I won't

16 have such problems.

17 Q. Mr. Medic, were there other occasions when people were released

18 from the Manjaca camp and when you were present during the release?

19 A. Religious personnel were left -- were released on two occasions.

20 On the 8th of September, 1992, I took out nine imams, religious men,

21 hodzas from Manjaca. Among them was the current mufti from Bihac, Husein

22 Efendija Makic. Eight or ten days later, Mr. Anicic, the director of

23 Caritas and I took out another five imams and another priest, whose name

24 was Stipo Sosic.

25 Q. Mr. Medic, I have already asked you similar question when we were

1 talking about prisoners in the camp, whether you knew them. Now I'm

2 asking whether -- did you have any relatives in the Manjaca camp to

3 specify it, was any of your relatives detained in the Manjaca camp?

4 A. When I was negotiating on the 18th of June, I said that I had seen

5 at least 300 or 350 men who were close to me in one of the barns. But on

6 that day, my brother, who was living in Sanica, he hadn't arrived by that

7 time. He hadn't -- and up until the first delivery, the 24th of June, by

8 that time, he was there too.

9 Q. Was your brother a soldier?

10 A. No, he wasn't. He was employed in a factory in Sanica and in the

11 afternoon, he worked as a labourer. That's how he was arrested. He was

12 arrested while he was mowing the grass.

13 Q. Mr. Medic, do you know Colonel Milutin Vukelic?

14 A. Yes. I know him personally. I know his brother, too.

15 Q. Where did you meet him, or if I may, did you meet him in Manjaca

16 camp?

17 A. I knew his brother so well that when I saw him at the meeting with

18 General Talic, it was clear to me that it was his brother, because they

19 are almost identical. That's the first time I met him.

20 Q. Did you had any further discussion with Colonel Vukelic?

21 A. On several occasions.

22 Q. Did he ever make any comment about the status of prisoners in the

23 camp?

24 A. By chance, on the day that Omer Filipovic was killed and Esad

25 Bender, quite by chance I was in Manjaca. I felt that the relationship

1 between the police and the personnel in Manjaca had been disturbed and

2 something must have happened. So I asked whether Colonel Vukelic was in

3 the surroundings. I was told to have a look for him in the barracks. The

4 barracks is before the entrance to the camp, perhaps about 500 or 600

5 metres or up to one kilometre away from the camp. Colonel Vukelic was

6 there and he received me. We spoke in the yard, in front of a big tree,

7 and there was a round table under that tree. While we spoke there, he

8 must have had a moment of weakness and said that -- and he indicated this

9 with his hand -- he pointed towards the camp. He said, "There aren't even

10 200 of them there who have anything to do with the rebellion and with

11 politics." In my opinion, that was just a confirmation of what I already

12 knew, of the fact that there were civilians there.

13 Q. And, Mr. Medic, do you know who was Vukelic's superior?

14 A. As far as I know, he was the assistant to General Talic for moral

15 issues. Colonel Vukelic was Talic's assistant. That's what they call

16 it. Vujnovic was the assistant for civilian affairs.

17 Q. Mr. Medic, I'm going to ask the final set of questions. Were you

18 arrested in 1995?

19 A. On the 1st of March, 1995, at about 1800 hours.

20 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can I show the witness a document which was

21 premarked as Exhibit -- Prosecution Exhibit 469?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: You may.

23 MS. RICHTEROVA:

24 Q. Mr. Medic, have you seen this document before?

25 A. Yes, I have.

1 Q. Can you assist us and tell us what it is? Just briefly what it

2 is, what is the type -- title of this document?

3 A. The title of the document is, "Criminal report against

4 Karaselimovic, Nijaz and others." It's a report, a criminal report,

5 against a group of humanitarian workers. I was among them. But these

6 people were arrested one day earlier and I was arrested on the 1st of

7 March.

8 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, may I ask the witness to read one

9 paragraph of this report?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Which paragraph?

11 MS. RICHTEROVA: In English version, it is -- in English version,

12 it starts on bottom of page number 3. In Bosnian -- in B/C/S version, it

13 starts on the top of page number 3.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And do you want him to read it in B/C/S or in

15 English?

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: In B/C/S.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: B/C/S.

18 MS. RICHTEROVA:

19 Q. Can you read --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Slowly because it will need to be translated.

21 MS. RICHTEROVA:

22 Q. It starts -- only to be sure that we are talking about the same

23 page and same paragraph, it starts, in B/C/S language [no translation].

24 A. "In the period between the first half of 1992 and early 1995, in

25 Banja Luka, Nijaz Karaselimovic as the president, Beco Filipovic, as the

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1 Vice-President, Ismet Pelak as the secretary, and Mehmet Bajric and Adil

2 Medic, as members of the executive committee of the Banja Luka MHD,

3 according to a previous arrangement jointly and severally collected data

4 from Banja Luka municipality and the area in general, on the status of the

5 Muslim population and specifically the threats they are exposed to about

6 their numbers, work obligation, forced eviction from flats and houses,

7 physical abuse, infringement of their fundamental rights, ethnic

8 cleansing, violation of property and physical integrity, detainees in

9 camps and their numbers, detention in the district prison, and the

10 military remand prison in Banja Luka, and numbers of detainees, demolition

11 of places of worship, number of prisoners of war and their exchange,

12 rapes, et cetera, as well as information about deployment of the VRS

13 troops on specific locations. After recording and summarising the data,

14 they forwarded them to representatives of international organisations."

15 Q. Mr. Medic, I would stop you right here because I think we have an

16 idea. What were you accused of? And you can read it also on the same

17 page. Whereby they committed which crime? Can you read it?

18 A. Yes. "Whereby they committed the criminal offence of espionage

19 referred to in Article 128 paragraph 1 of the KZ of Republika Srpska,

20 general provisions, punishable under the same legal regulation."

21 Q. Mr. Medic, were you collecting information?

22 A. No, I wasn't.

23 Q. Were you receiving information as a member of Merhamet?

24 A. Yes, I was.

25 Q. What kind of information you were receiving, and from whom?

1 A. If we return to the text, in this indictment, then I don't see any

2 charges against me, but against those who wrote this, because all such

3 information, we would receive such information from citizens but we didn't

4 put it into order and forward it in an organised manner to international

5 organisations and everything that is stated here was done in the field.

6 Q. Did you give this kind of information to international

7 organisation?

8 A. Never in a written form but in conversations at working meetings,

9 yes, we would provide such information. They were with in the

10 municipality and it was for all local and international humanitarian

11 organisations. I never attended these meetings.

12 Q. Mr. Medic, were you convicted?

13 A. No, I wasn't. I was in court on three occasions but the main case

14 didn't even start and no sentence was delivered.

15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Medic?

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour --

17 A. I'm sorry, I would like to specify that it was at the military

18 court.

19 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you. Your Honour, I have finished my

20 direct examination of witness Adil Medic.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Which means we are causing problems. Madam Fauveau,

22 Mr. Ackerman, I heard what you had to say this morning with regard to the

23 cross-examination. I understood you as saying that you made yourself

24 clear when there was this -- when you were told that the two witnesses

25 would be swapped, that you preferred to have the cross-examination start

1 tomorrow with Madam Fauveau going first; is that correct? In fact, may I

2 ask you, Mr. Ackerman, whether you as the person responsible or mainly

3 responsible for the Defence of Mr. Brdjanin intend to make

4 cross-examination of the witness?

5 MR. ACKERMAN: At the present time, I would say that I have no

6 questions. I could change my mind based upon the questions of

7 Madam Fauveau but I doubt it.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, are you in a position to at least

9 start with some kind of general questions, and then come to the most or

10 more important part of your cross-examination tomorrow?

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the reason

12 was that I would like to begin tomorrow. I just don't have the file of

13 this witness on me -- with me.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And I understand that you had already left for Paris

15 when you were informed. I was informed when I was already at home,

16 actually, I mean on Friday. So I would -- Thursday, actually. I wouldn't

17 be surprised if that is the case here. Mr. Cayley, I mean, let's not

18 complicate matters, see what we can do.

19 MR. CAYLEY: Your Honour, I entirely take responsibility for this

20 the situation.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not being looked upon by the Trial Chamber as

22 something that you have to answer for or take responsibility for. I mean,

23 it's -- these things happen. And when they happen you have to live with

24 them.

25 MR. CAYLEY: The only thing I would add is at the time when we did

1 speak to Ms. Fauveau, we did obviously agree that she would, subject to

2 what Your Honours felt, that the cross-examination would begin tomorrow so

3 that she would be able to prepare herself properly. I'm sorry for the

4 wasted time today.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's no problem, Mr. Cayley, these things can happen

6 any time in any trial. The Trial Chamber fully understands, the thing is

7 that if -- there has been this sort of arrangement, I think we will have

8 to honour it. I mean, I personally found no objection when I was

9 approached on Thursday for the very simple reason that I had taken with me

10 all the documentation, including Mr. Medic's statement plus documents that

11 were going to be made use of with me for -- to read over the weekend so I

12 had no problems there, and I am not called upon to cross-examine a witness

13 so it was no problem for me. Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think the reality of the situation

15 is that we have two witnesses for this week, and that we will finish those

16 two witnesses this week so it's just a matter of --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no. I'm not creating difficulties. I'm

18 trying to see if we could utilise the time that we have better. In actual

19 fact I do have a lot of work to do myself with my legal staff on some of

20 the outstanding motions that have been drafted and we need to go through

21 them bit by bit so it's not going to be wasted as far as I am concerned or

22 my other -- the other two judges are concerned. It's just if we could --

23 okay. So we can leave it at that. I think we will need to adjourn until

24 tomorrow morning.

25 Mr. Medic, nor or less I think you have followed the substance of

1 the conversation that took place. There was another witness that was

2 going -- or that was planned to give evidence before you, and at the last

3 moment on Thursday, I understand because you need to be back in your

4 country by a certain date, it was agreed that you would give evidence

5 first. There was an understanding and a commitment that the

6 cross-examination from the Defence team of General Talic will be reserved

7 for tomorrow morning, for Tuesday, and that is the arrangement that was

8 reached on Thursday, so the Trial Chamber has no alternative but to honour

9 that arrangement. So I'm afraid you will have to come back tomorrow

10 morning. I do not think that your evidence will last more than maybe a

11 couple of hours, Madam Fauveau? Not even that?

12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think two hours, yes,

13 Your Honour.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: About two hours, and after that, I think you would

15 be in a position to go back to wherever you want to go. And -- yes?

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, if I may, I would like to inform you

17 and I don't know whether I also need permission from you, a lawyer, an

18 investigator, needs to talk with the witness in relation to different

19 investigation which is pending in the OTP. So I would like to state it in

20 the record that he will be questioned during the time he is here.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I would imagine provided that what you're saying

22 necessarily relates to something completely different that hasn't got

23 anything to do with this case, then there should be no objection. There

24 is no objection, I understand, from the Defence teams so there is no --

25 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can he be questioned before the cross-examination

1 or --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you can. If he is going to be questioned on

3 something that has got absolutely nothing to do with this case, then there

4 is no objection forth coming from the Trial Chamber.

5 MS. RICHTEROVA: And I only want to add that we will --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm making it clear that we will not at any later

7 time entertain any document or any statement that will refer -- and the

8 witness is also being -- I'm using the word "warned," not to cooperate

9 with any investigator that approaches you between now and when you next

10 give evidence if this investigator, it's a she or a he, asks you questions

11 related to the events on which -- on which you have been asked this

12 morning or which relate to this case in particular. Otherwise, if you

13 think it's safer to have the investigator interrogate him afterwards that

14 would be easier for everyone but I leave it in your hands, if you need

15 perhaps the information you require now, I will not put obstructions in

16 the way.

17 MS. RICHTEROVA: And I also want to inform you that we are calling

18 three witnesses this week, according to our -- and you received -- we are

19 calling the witness BT7 and he is --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let me -- because I wasn't informed of

21 that.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there is a Rule that they must let us

23 know by Thursday of the previous week who the witnesses will be for the

24 subsequent week. They are telling us now for the first time about this.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I remember quite vividly Ms. Korner saying that

1 there were only two witnesses for this week. One is Mr. Medic and I think

2 Mr. Medic can actually leave the courtroom now. He will be escorted. And

3 tomorrow morning, we will see you again, Mr. Medic and thank you for your

4 cooperation.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I'm sorry, there is a slight

7 misunderstanding. Mr. Ackerman is absolutely right. In fact the

8 misunderstanding was the witness, the third witness that was referred to,

9 is actually arriving on Thursday so it's two witnesses for this week.

10 It's not a third witness, so my apologies for that.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So there is no problem there. The next one,

12 the next witness, you know who it's going to be. He's the witness who

13 should have been in the courtroom this morning. Okay. And I understand

14 also that you have had, like we have, an indication of the documents that

15 will be referred to by that witness already. So that shouldn't present us

16 with any problems either.

17 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm assuming that this BT6 witness is

18 Witness 175; is that correct?

19 MR. CAYLEY: That's correct. And he's in closed session, that

20 witness.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: All right.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Anything else?

23 MR. CAYLEY: No, Your Honour, thank you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Mr. Cayley. Mr. Ackerman and Madam

25 Fauveau. I think we will have to resume tomorrow at 9.00 and hopefully

1 finish with the witness. Please have Mr. Dzonlic ready to start tomorrow

2 as soon as we finish with this witness.

3 MR. CAYLEY: We will make sure of that, Your Honour, yes.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.39 a.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Tuesday the 26th day of

7 February, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

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