1 Wednesday, 6 March 2002
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Are you hearing
6 me in a language that you can understand?
7 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your
8 Honours. Yes, I am hearing you in a language I understand.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: General Talic, good morning to you, too. Are you
10 hearing me in a language that you can understand?
11 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
12 Yes, I do.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: So I think after that, we can have the case called.
14 Thank you.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
16 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Brdjanin and Talic.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose we better hurry and bring the witness in
18 before he starts getting some ideas about applying for Dutch citizenship.
19 Any preliminaries, by the way?
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there are but I think they probably
21 would be better done after we've finished with this witness.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you. So could you please bring
23 Mr. Dzonlic in?
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Dzonlic. Sorry about
1 yesterday. It wasn't our fault, as you know. And let's hope nothing
2 happens today which will keep you any further in The Hague. You will
3 hopefully finish with your testimony today, and the gentleman to your
4 right will hand you the usual document on which there is a solemn
5 declaration that you are kindly asked to make.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: AMIR DZONLIC [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE AGIUS: You may sit down, thank you.
11 And Madam Fauveau, before you start, Mr. Ackerman, I take it you
12 still do not take my advice and put that famous question to the witness?
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just believe that I have put the
14 question to him as -- in -- I think I have complied with 90(H)(2). I
15 don't think I am flouting your ruling. I really believe I have complied
16 and that's the best I can do.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's -- Madam Fauveau, please.
18 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one moment because the witness has got
20 something to tell us. Yes, Mr. Dzonlic?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise but may I
22 be given my statement again, please? As I was last time?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Korner, can he have the two statements
24 actually? I would suppose it would be wiser to hand both versions to him,
25 both English and B/C/S.
1 MS. KORNER: That's been done, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Cross-examination by Ms. Fauveau-Ivanovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dzonlic, could you look at your statement
7 dated October, 2000, on page 2. You said that a meeting was held among
8 different Muslim organisations in April, 1992.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You also said, during your testimony last week, that this meeting
11 was held because the people were beginning to flee the region of Prijedor,
12 Kozarac and Gradiska. Do you remember saying that?
13 A. I said that people were coming to Banja Luka from those
14 municipalities, which were in the immediate vicinity of Banja Luka. Those
15 who managed to flee had come to Banja Luka or were coming to Banja Luka.
16 I remember that, yes.
17 Q. And you also said that this meeting held in April, 1992, was held
18 after the attack on Kozarac.
19 A. People were coming after what was happening in Prijedor, Bosanska
20 Gradiska and I think it was also after the attack on Kozarac. I know for
21 sure that these things were happening in Prijedor, Derventa, Bosanska
23 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, I am not asking you about what happened in those
24 places. I am asking you whether that meeting did indeed take place after
25 the attack on Kozarac, as you said last week.
1 A. I think it was after the attack on Kozarac, yes.
2 Q. Do you know when the attack on Kozarac took place?
3 A. No, I don't know.
4 Q. Would you agree if I suggest to you that the attack on Kozarac
5 took place at the end of May, 1992?
6 A. I don't know. I can't be certain about the dates. I told you
7 that I don't know when the attack on Kozarac took place. If you know for
8 certain, then I -- as I say, I cannot say whether I agree with you or not
9 because I don't know exactly when it took place. But people were coming
10 from Kozarac as well, people were fleeing Kozarac as well.
11 Q. You said that following that meeting, a commission was established
12 to dealt with the rights of prisoners of war; is that right?
13 A. A commission was to deal with human rights. The real name of the
14 commission was a Commission for Human Rights and the Implementation of the
15 Geneva Conventions in the Territory of Bosnian Krajina and War Law. But
16 the people, since it dealt most with prisoners, the people referred to it
17 informally as the Commission for Prisoners of War. That's how the people
18 called that commission, by the public.
19 Q. Mr. Adil Medic was a member of that commission, was he not?
20 A. Yes, he was.
21 Q. Did you know which organisation Adil Medic represented?
22 A. I think he was a representative of the Forum of Intellectuals,
23 Bosniaks, so he represented the forum of Bosniak intellectuals.
24 Q. Are you sure that he did not represent Merhamet?
25 A. When the commission was formed, he did not join it on behalf of
1 Merhamet because on behalf of Merhamet, there was another man who
2 represented Merhamet.
3 Q. Do you know that Adil Medic says that he represented Merhamet?
4 A. I don't know what Mr. Adil Medic said, but my opinion is that when
5 the commission was set up, he joined the commission on behalf of the Forum
6 of Intellectuals.
7 Q. Could you look at your statement of October, 2000, page 3,
8 please? You said that in March and April, 1992, you went with Adil Medic
9 to the headquarters of the 1st Corps and that two days after this first
10 visit, you met General Talic.
11 A. When I was making this statement, or rather when I saw this
12 statement, when I came here, I did make a few formal, shall I call them
13 objections, regarding this statement, whether it was a lapsus linguae or
14 was it due to the translation, but any way, I said, "Since we went there
15 several times, I don't know exactly who was with me. Sometimes it was
16 Adil Medic, sometimes it was Professor Bajric, sometimes Mr. Halilovic.
17 As far as I can remember, the first time we went there, all four of us
18 were there." So I said that we went there on a number of occasions and
19 because of the number of occasions, I'm not quite sure who was with me on
20 each occasion, whether it was professor -- Mr. Medic, Professor Halilovic,
21 Professor Bajric and myself, or two of us or three of us. That is what I
23 Q. But you do still stand by the fact that in April, 1992 you went to
24 the headquarters of the 1st Corps?
25 A. Yes, that's right.
1 Q. And you went there to discuss the Manjaca camp?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know when the 1st Corps was established?
4 A. I don't know but I assume it was just before that, because I know
5 that they told us that it was under the competence of the 1st Krajina
6 Corps. When it was formed, I don't know.
7 Q. Do you know which army that corps belonged to?
8 A. It belonged to the Serb army. We called it the Serb army. As far
9 as I know, before it was called the 5th Corps of the JNA, I think, and it
10 was transformed into the 1st Krajina Corps of the Serbian army. We called
11 it the Serbian army. In principle, we called them paramilitary
13 Q. Did you go to the headquarters of the 1st Corps or to the
14 headquarters of an unknown paramilitary unit?
15 A. We went to the headquarters of the 1st Krajina Corps. Naturally,
16 we couldn't tell them that we treat them as paramilitary formations. I
17 know that they told us that this was under the competency of the 1st
18 Krajina Corps, 1st Krajina Corps, yes.
19 Q. Did you treat JNA units also as paramilitary units?
20 A. JNA units were considered by us to be the aggressors, because they
21 were on our territory and Bosnia and Herzegovina was independent, and as
22 foreign troops we treated them as aggressors.
23 Q. So units of the 1st Corps which you treated as paramilitary units
24 had nothing to do with units of the JNA?
25 A. I don't know what kind of formations they were because I'm not a
1 military expert, whether they had anything to do with them or not I don't
2 know. I don't know that. I just know that they were present. That is
3 JNA units were present in those days, and I remember that military
4 judicial institutions started to be formed, the prosecutor's office, the
5 military courts, and I know that members of the JNA assisted quite a bit
6 the people who were in charge of the formation of military institutions of
7 the Serbs; so they assisted in the formation of those institutions. So
8 probably there were links but I cannot comment on those links.
9 Q. Do you know when the Manjaca camp was set up?
10 A. Before we arrived there, we heard there was talk about that camp.
11 When it was formed, I don't know, but later on, I learnt that people who
12 arrived at the camp first were people from -- now I can't remember the
13 name of a particular village. I think 250 of them who were working there
14 and preparing the area for the arrival of others. So I don't know when
15 that was. But I know that up there at Manjaca there was a military
16 training ground. The largest military tank training ground in the
17 Balkans, it was said to be. And after my university studies, I did some
18 military training there for 15 days, and I know that it existed already.
19 Q. Could you look at page 4 of your statement, still the October,
20 2000, one, it is the last paragraph. You said that like me, Adil Medic
21 received -- that one month after the meeting, the meeting that according
22 to you took place in April, 1992, you received permission to visit
24 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, could we have an accurate reading of that,
25 please? I don't think it says one month. It says about. In the English
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Ms. Korner is correct, Madam Fauveau. Could
3 you be more specific and perhaps if you have the text in front of you,
4 read the excerpt?
5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation].
6 Q. On page 3, the witness said [In English] "Prisoners of war decided
7 that we would visit the super military headquarters in Banja Luka. In
8 March or April, 1992, with Imam Alija Halilovic and Adil Medic I attended
9 the military headquarters of the 1st Krajina Corps in Banja Luka."
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour I'm very sorry it's my fault.
11 Madam Fauveau, I thought, was reading the passage on page 4, the last
12 paragraph in English, because she was asking the witness about permission
13 to visit.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how I understood it too.
15 MS. KORNER: It's simply the only quarrel I have is that it was
16 stated that the English text reads, "One month later." In fact, it reads,
17 "About one month later."
18 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why I said you are correct. Because that's
19 what I had in mine too. Any way, either you rephrase the question,
20 Madam Fauveau, or perhaps you read out those three lines on page 4, the
21 last paragraph, to the witness, who has the text in front of him in any
22 case. I would suggest that you rephrase the question.
23 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. You said that about one month after that meeting with General
25 Talic, Adil Medic received permission to visit the Manjaca camp. Is that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 A. I said, roughly, I couldn't be precise in terms of time. It's
3 very difficult to say. One day we went to our office, that office we had,
4 and as far as I can remember, Adil Medic had been to the headquarters and
5 he came and stated that General Talic had given orders, was it in writing
6 or orally, I don't know, I can't remember. I know that he said that we
7 had been granted permission and that General Talic had issued an order
8 that we could go to Manjaca and that it was our duty to provide
9 identification documents and to take them to the command, and he also gave
10 a date when we should go, that also the date and hour that we would leave
11 in front of the command building. I think it was around 9.00 in the
13 Q. So, according to you, when you went to see General Talic for the
14 first time, you hadn't been to the Manjaca camp yet?
15 A. No, no, no. We hadn't toured it. We -- between the first time we
16 went and our visit in my judgement, though I find it very hard to fix the
17 time, it was about a month later, because we went there five or six times,
18 certainly. But before that, we hadn't been to Manjaca. It was only after
19 we received permission and after we handed in our -- those documents, and
20 the document of the vehicle that we drove in, only then did we go to
22 Q. Do you know that Adil Medic says that there was a meeting with
23 General Talic after the visit to Manjaca?
24 A. I know, as far as I can remember, that when we returned from
25 Manjaca, was it Adil Medic or Professor Bajric, and I think that we wrote
1 a letter in connection with the people that we had agreed should be
2 released from the camp, and I think we addressed that letter to the
3 command as a notification, either we asked for their release or we wrote a
4 letter saying that it had been agreed that they be released, and there
5 were contacts.
6 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, I'll come to that a little later but for the moment,
7 I'm saying that Adil Medic says that he visited Manjaca because Adil Medic
8 contacted Halilovic?
9 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... but in our
10 submission, it's not a proper way to cross-examine to say, "Did you know
11 that Adil Medic said this?" That's a matter of comment on which you can
12 be address. The witness can be asked if he is sure that that's what
13 happened and if he adheres to it fine, if he doesn't --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand, Ms. Korner, you are right. On the
15 other hand, I can't blame Madam Fauveau that much. Perhaps you will take
16 what I'm going to tell you in the spirit that I am saying it. Basically,
17 what Madam Korner -- what Madam Korner is saying is that kind of question
18 that you should put to him, if we are to follow the basic rules of a
19 proper cross-examination, is not to ask the witness whether -- if he knows
20 what another witness has stated, either here or outside the courtroom.
21 But to put it to him as a possibility or as an affirmation, and then ask
22 him, either for his comment or whether he agrees that this happened or
23 whatever. I mean, in your case, I was going to stop you for another
24 reason because the way you put the question is sort of -- you were hinting
25 to the witness that in saying that they met General Talic before visiting
1 Manjaca, he was not being precise and that another witness had said that
2 they met General Talic after visiting Manjaca. In actual fact, I -- this
3 is why I'm mentioning it, perhaps you could be very specific. You just
4 tell the witness what you believe Adil Medic stated, and then ask him
5 whether he agrees or disagrees, but you don't ask him what the other
6 witness stated. Please go ahead.
7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Adil Medic said [Previous translation continues] ... [In English]
9 General Talic called the Mufti Alija Halilovic and told him that
10 humanitarian aid was possible to issue to the prisoners of Manjaca. Talic
11 inquired if it was possible to arrange this."
12 Do you know whether General Talic called the mufti Halilovic?
13 A. I don't know whether General Talic called the late mufti in Banja
14 Luka but I do know that the mufti had a meeting with General Talic too,
15 but I don't know when exactly. The late mufti had a meeting not only with
16 General Talic but also with the entire leadership at that time, on several
17 occasions, but whether he called him or not, this is something I don't
19 Q. After the visit to Manjaca, did you go to meet General Talic?
20 A. After the visit to Manjaca, I had the most contact with
21 international representatives and our office would go to the command, but
22 I don't know who they would meet. All I can say is that I remember that
23 after we returned from Manjaca we wrote to the command. I don't know
24 whether it was to inform them that such and such a number of people would
25 leave or whether it was to request that a certain number of people leave.
1 I can't state this precisely now.
2 Q. After the first visit to Manjaca, were you present at a meeting
3 with General Talic or not?
4 A. No. After I returned from Manjaca, no, I didn't.
5 Q. You mentioned this request for release that you wrote. Could you
6 tell us what it was, this request?
7 A. I didn't say that I wrote it. I think that Mr. Adil Medic wrote
8 it and as I say, I know that a request was written when we came back from
9 Manjaca. Whether it was to inform the command that it was necessary to
10 release a certain -- certain people in certain categories, or whether the
11 request was that we had agreed in Manjaca, at Manjaca, that a certain
12 number of people would be released, and that we had agreed to this in
13 Manjaca, the request was something like this, but I didn't write it. It
14 was written by Adil Medic on behalf of the office, and I wrote a report
15 and certain requests for the International Red Cross and the UNHCR.
16 Q. When you met General Talic the first time, did he speak to you
17 about the Geneva Conventions?
18 A. He said that the camp was a camp for war prisoners and that it was
19 under the authority of the 1st Krajina Corps, and that everything with
20 regard to the camp -- that these people were responsible for everything in
21 the camp, the people who were present there. It's possible that he said
22 that everything was in accordance with the Geneva Conventions, that the
23 prisoners were being treated in accordance with these conventions.
24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the Registrar show
25 the witness document DT2? It is 41586.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Ms. Fauveau, is this a new exhibit?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't have it either. I don't recall having ever
3 seen it, actually.
4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I gave it to
5 the Registrar on last Friday with a list of documents that I was going to
7 MS. KORNER: Perhaps while that document is being looked for,
8 could I ask -- I'm not clear whether the suggestion to the witness is that
9 he is wrong when he says the meeting with General Talic was before the
10 visit to Manjaca. If that's the case, I think that ought to be put. He's
11 been cross-examined about what Mr. Dzonlic said but is the case that he
12 when he said the meeting was before is wrong or that Mr. Dzonlic was
13 wrong. That's the trouble with this.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: That's why earlier on you may have noticed I said, I
15 told Ms. Fauveau I was on the point of stopping her. But I think it has
16 been more or less cleared now, and that she does acknowledge that there
17 were two meetings, one before and one after, and she's got it from the
18 witness that while he was present at the first meeting he was not present
19 at the second one.
20 MS. KORNER: Ah, well, Your Honour, in that case Your Honour has
21 certainly followed it more clearly than I have, if that is the case.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you agree, Madam Fauveau, with what I have just
23 stated? I think she put a very direct question to the witness when he
24 avoided answering the question that she had just put to him, whether he
25 was present at the second meeting, at the meeting which took place after
1 the visit to Manjaca and he didn't answer that question. Whether he
2 avoided purposely to answer that question, I don't know, but he did not
3 answer that question, so she put the question in a more direct fashion
4 immediately afterwards. And he answered that he was not present.
5 MS. KORNER: Right. I wonder if -- can I just be clear myself?
6 That is the suggestion: Two meetings, but Mr. Dzonlic wasn't present at
7 the second.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Correct, Madam Fauveau?
9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Not exactly.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We can go through the transcript. Let me change my
12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] You are right with regard
13 to the interpretation of what the witness said, but I don't quite agree
14 with what he said.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: But that's another matter. That you don't agree
16 with what he said is another matter, but that's what he said.
17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] That's right.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... direct and
19 specific question to him. And in fact your next question was with
20 reference to what you referred to as the first meeting. For him, there
21 was only one meeting. There wasn't a first and a second. For you, there
22 were two meetings. For us there were two meetings because basically we
23 know there was a second meeting at which you have referred, at least from
24 the evidence of someone else. But he stated that he was not present at
25 the second meeting.
1 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, I think this is where the problem
2 has arisen and I think it's because -- I don't for one moment blame Madam
3 Fauveau, it's because of the style of putting the questions. My
4 understanding rather was that there was only one meeting and that took
5 place after the visit to Manjaca, ergo this witness is wrong. That's what
6 I understand the suggestion to be, but it was quite difficult to follow
7 and if that is the suggestion, I think it should be put in plain terms.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, Madam Fauveau, let's be very clear.
9 Are you suggesting to the witness that there were two meetings or just one
10 meeting and that one meeting took place after the visit to Manjaca and not
12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am suggesting that there
13 was one meeting after the visit to Manjaca.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So that is the question that is obviously being put
15 to you again, Mr. Dzonlic. Is it possible that there was only one meeting
16 with Mr. Talic at which you were present, and that meeting took place
17 after the visit to Manjaca and not before?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was at a meeting before we went to
19 Manjaca, and after Manjaca, I wasn't present at any other meeting after
20 Manjaca. I know that they went to the command after Manjaca, but as for a
21 meeting, I don't know, but I do know -- but as I said, I don't know -- I
22 went for sure on three or five -- three, four, five times. I went there
23 before we went to Manjaca. And on one occasion, and this was before we
24 went to Manjaca, not after Manjaca, as far as I can remember. I don't
25 know. I didn't have a meeting with General Talic after Manjaca.
1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. The meeting that you attended before visiting Manjaca, was Adil
3 Medic present at this meeting?
4 A. As I said, it's written down here. I can't exactly remember who
5 was there because we went there on several occasions. We went there very
6 often. I even know that we sometimes had to go to the command two or
7 three times in the course of one day. We would go there two or three
8 times in order to establish contact. I don't exactly know who was with me
9 at the meeting, whether Adil Medic was there. In my statement, it states
10 that -- and I thought that this was perhaps an error, maybe when I was
11 speaking of when it was translated, but we had a meeting before going to
12 Manjaca before going to Manjaca.
13 Q. You said that you went to the headquarters of the 1st Corps on
14 several occasions. Did you see General Talic on each occasion?
15 A. Not on each occasion. I saw him one other time when I was
16 passing -- he passed by. I saw him one other time. As I said, we went
17 there quite often. But the second time that I saw him, we didn't speak to
18 each other. I only saw him over there.
19 Q. So you only had one meeting with General Talic?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. And you don't remember whether Adil Medic was present at this
23 A. No, I don't remember. I can't remember. I sometimes went there
24 on my own and sometimes the two of us went there. Sometimes Adil Medic
25 went on his own.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. But Mr. Dzonlic, I'm not speaking about visits to the
2 headquarters. I'm only speaking about the meeting with General Talic, the
3 one meeting.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you know who was with you at this meeting with General Talic?
6 A. As I said, I don't know exactly who was with me. I don't know
7 whether Adil Medic was there or Professor Bajric.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, I suggest you move to your next
10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, do you have an order from General Talic in front of
12 you now?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Could you read the last paragraph, the third paragraph? Could you
15 read it?
16 A. Yes, I can. I've read it.
17 Q. Could you read it out loud, please?
18 A. "To prisoners of war, behave with dignity, treat them in a humane
19 way. Do not subject them to violence, insult them or frighten them. Make
20 sure that they have accommodation and provide those who are sick with
21 medical care, in accordance with international war law."
22 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, the interpreters --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, slow down, Madam Fauveau.
24 THE INTERPRETER: I'd like to inform you that the interpreters do
25 not have this document.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And another problem is that apparently this document
2 has not been copied -- has not been handed to the interpreters. So if the
3 Registry perhaps could remedy that, if there are spare copies. Are you
4 going to put further questions on this document to the witness?
5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Just one question, which
6 concerns the document but it's not necessary for him to read it.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You don't have any further copies, but are
8 there any other documents because this unfortunately we were not updated
9 on this matter. Are there any other documents, DT documents, which are
10 going to be made use of by Madam Fauveau this morning or later on in the
11 course of her cross-examination of witnesses? Because if that is the
12 case, perhaps while she goes along we have them photocopied so we have
13 copies -- the Prosecution I understand have copies already.
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we were given copies last week. It's
15 actually one of our documents and I think it's probably already got a "P"
16 number, but that's going to happen quite a lot, I think.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps you could have someone here who can have
18 them photocopied, at least for the interpreters, because I understand we
19 will be given our copy as we go along. Thank you.
20 Sorry to have interrupted you like that, Madam Fauveau, but I
21 think it was necessary. Please proceed.
22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, do you agree that in this order, General Talic
24 requested that prisoners of war be treated in accordance with the rules of
25 the rights of war law?
1 A. Yes, I do agree.
2 Q. When you went to the Manjaca camp, you went in a red van; isn't
3 that right?
4 A. Yes, that's right.
5 Q. And this van belonged to -- to Ibrahim Makic?
6 A. Yes, it was his van.
7 Q. Who is Mr. Makic?
8 A. I don't know Mr. Makic. I think he worked as a representative of
9 Merhamet. I think that was in Vrbanja. I don't know who Mr. Makic is. I
10 didn't know him before.
11 Q. Did Adil -- was Adil Medic present at this visit to Manjaca?
12 A. Yes, he was.
13 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, at the
14 moment, I need to show the witness another document and I assure you that
15 I gave it to the Registrar last Friday. It is P467 but in the original
16 form, without the notes that the previous witness provided.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, please.
19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document be
20 placed on the ELMO, please?
21 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, could you show us where the entrance to the Manjaca
22 camp is?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. Let's follow the usual procedure here.
24 As you show us Mr. Dzonlic, please you're going to be handed a coloured
25 pen and please mark. For example, if you're going to show us where the
1 entrance is, you mark it on the document itself, and put your initials
2 against it.
3 THE WITNESS: [Marks] [Interpretation] According to this drawing,
4 in my opinion, the entrance is here, the entrance to the camp.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: In other words, it is where you've put an "X" inside
6 a circle? Just for the record.
7 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. When you were in the camp of Manjaca, you did visit the stables?
10 A. Yes, we did but only to this -- this one and this one, but we
11 didn't go to this one up here. We weren't able to enter it.
12 Q. Could you mark with an "X" the two stables that you did visit?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Not with an "X," with a number "1," "2," however --
14 whatever the number was, of the -- of what is being referred to as stables
15 that you visited.
16 THE WITNESS: [Marks] [Interpretation] We entered these two.
17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. During your testimony on the 27th of February, you said that the
19 camp was surrounded by a double barbed wire fence. Could you indicate on
20 this drawing where that fence is?
21 A. On this drawing, as far as I can see, there is only one fence.
22 This is one fence that has been drawn, that I had in mind, when I said
23 that the camp was fenced in inside, because these stables and this kitchen
24 where the detainees were, there was this fence round it, but there is
25 another fence that can't be seen on this drawing, which surrounds the
1 whole camp. So these stables and the kitchen where the detainees were
2 held had a fence of the kind drawn, but there was also another fence
3 around the camp as a whole but I don't see it on the drawing.
4 Q. So this drawing doesn't show us the whole camp; is that what
5 you're saying?
6 A. You can't see the whole camp, yes, because at the entrance,
7 somewhere around here, there are some additional premises, as far as I can
8 find my way on this drawing, because we entered into some other buildings,
10 Q. You also said on the 27th of February, and I quote, "Actually,
11 around each of these three stables, there was also a barbed wire."
12 A. That may have been a slip. I didn't say around each of the
13 stables but around these three stables and this building where they ate.
14 There was a fence, not around each and -- each stable, but all of them
15 together had this fence around them, precisely in the way it is indicated
16 on this drawing, rather than each of the stables individually having a
17 fence around it.
18 Q. On page 7 of your statement of October, 2000, in the
19 Serbo-Croatian version, it is page 6, you said that you asked for
20 permission to speak to the detainees and that your request was turned
21 down. Is that correct?
22 A. They said to us that we could not -- no, we didn't ask, but when
23 we talked to them, they told us that we couldn't talk to the detainees,
24 that's what they told us. Before we entered those stables, at a meeting
25 that we held when we entered the camp, we were told that we could not talk
1 to the detainees.
2 Q. When you visited these stables, was Adil Medic with you?
3 A. All four of us toured the stables. We visited them together,
4 together, not just the stables but the whole camp. They showed it to us,
5 and as far as I can remember, all four of us toured it.
6 Q. Would you agree that Adil Medic was able to speak to the
8 A. I said that I too managed to speak to detainees during the tour,
9 and it's quite possible that Adil Medic spoke to them as well as Professor
10 Bajric may have done. Though we knew we had been told that we couldn't
11 talk to the detainees, nonetheless, walking through those stables and
12 among the detainees, we did talk to them regardless of the order given to
14 Q. When you spoke to the detainees, were the guards present?
15 A. I had a feeling that there was a soldier or a guard or a --
16 escorting each one of us and they were always present throughout the time
17 we spent in the camp.
18 Q. So when you managed to speak to the detainees, someone was always
20 A. Yes. We were never without an escort.
21 Q. If I were to suggest to you that Adil Medic was able to speak to
22 the detainees in a way that the guards would not hear it, would you agree
23 with me?
24 A. I wouldn't agree. We were under observation. I don't know. They
25 were present next to us all the time, and I think there was one guard next
1 to each one of us. In fact, there may have been more than four of them.
2 We were four, but there may have been more than four of them. So I don't
3 know. They saw us talking, and when I was speaking, they could see that
4 we were communicating. They were right behind us in our immediate
5 vicinity. So I -- I don't know.
6 Q. During your testimony last week, you said that most of the
7 detainees in the stables were lying down; is that correct?
8 A. Most of them were lying down, most of them, the majority.
9 Compared to what I saw in the pictures here, when all of them were
10 sitting, when we were there in my opinion, most of them were lying down.
11 There were some sitting down, some standing, but there were many lying
12 down. Now, whether it is a majority or not, I think that many of them
13 were lying down.
14 Q. If I suggest to you that all the detainees were standing except
15 for one single one, who was lying down, you wouldn't agree with me?
16 A. I wouldn't agree with that.
17 Q. According to you, this statement is incorrect?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How many times did you visit the Manjaca camp?
20 A. That time, once when we toured the camp, and I went on one other
21 occasion, though I didn't enter the camp itself. After sometime, I can't
22 tell you exactly after how long, when we went parcels to the camp, I went
23 once with the truck delivering the packages but I didn't enter the camp.
24 We stopped outside the entrance to the camp. On that occasion, I didn't
25 enter or tour the camp.
1 Q. Did Merhamet regularly deliver aid to the Manjaca camp?
2 A. I remember immediately after our return from the camp, aid was
3 sent in a truck. Merhamet purchased some cabbage, I think, potatoes,
4 onions, and I think that this was sent, and as far as I'm able to
5 remember, maybe on one other occasion, food was sent by truck in this
6 way. However, after that, it was agreed and permitted for individual
7 packages to be addressed to a particular person by name. So I cannot
8 remember, and I'm unable to say how often this was.
9 Q. Is it possible that between June and December, 1992, Merhamet
10 delivered aid to the Manjaca camp 49 times?
11 A. I don't know that. I told you that after returning from the camp,
12 I focused more on activities with the International Red Cross. So I don't
13 know how many times Merhamet did, and whether that is possible, but I do
14 know that after we returned, it was agreed that eight days later the
15 International Red Cross would come. However, it took perhaps more than a
16 month, and it was only then that the International Red Cross came, and I
17 think that the International Red Cross assisted in providing humanitarian
18 aid to the camp.
19 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, I'm not challenging the aid of the International Red
20 Cross, but in addition to the International Red Cross, could Merhamet have
21 delivered humanitarian aid to the Manjaca camp 49 times?
22 A. I can't say. I don't know that, I think. I don't remember, or
23 rather I can't say. I told you what I know, that perhaps a truck went
24 twice, and it carried food in bulk, loose, and after sometime, it also
25 delivered some packages, and I went once when these packages were being
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 delivered. But I don't know how many times. I don't know.
2 Q. You spoke of the release of certain persons in July from Manjaca.
3 After that release, were there other releases in August or September of
5 A. I think there were some then too, I think on one other occasion,
6 as far as I can remember, another group of people. Now, whether it was
7 August or September, I don't know, but as far as I can remember, there was
8 another group of people released.
9 Q. In August, you had regular contacts with the Red Cross, did you
11 A. I was constantly in touch with the Red Cross.
12 Q. If I were to suggest to you that in August, a group of prisoners
13 were released and sent through the intermediary of the Red Cross to
14 Western Europe, would you agree with me?
15 A. No. I know that a group was sent when the camp was closed,
16 through the International Red Cross, to a collection centre in Karlovac.
17 As far as I know. I don't know that a certain group, through the Red
18 Cross was sent in August. I don't remember that.
19 Q. Are you aware of a group of prisoners being sent through the
20 mediation of the Red Cross for medical treatment to Switzerland and Great
22 A. I don't know that. I don't know that.
23 Q. Do you know that a certain number of religious officials were
24 released from Manjaca in September?
25 A. I know that they were release after our visit, that religious
1 officials were released, but as for a group in the month of September,
2 don't know. But I assume that there were religious officials as well, but
3 I don't know.
4 Q. So you're saying that some religious officials were released after
5 your visit and you allow for the possibility that others may have been
6 released in September. Is my understanding of what you said right?
7 A. That is a -- I was saying this second time when they were
8 released, I know that a certain group of people, I remember that this
9 group was released. I don't know which category they were. But in view
10 of the fact that after our visit there were religious officials in the
11 group, I know that they kept insisting that religious officials should be
12 released and so it's possible that there were religious officials in that
14 Q. Do you know when the Manjaca camp was closed?
15 A. I think it was in -- at the end of 1992, maybe in December or
16 November. I don't know the exact date. I can't say. But I think it was
17 towards the end of 1992.
18 Q. Do you know that simultaneously with the release of prisoners from
19 the Manjaca camp, Serb prisoners should have been released from Croat and
20 Muslim camps?
21 A. I am not aware of that.
22 Q. At the end of 1992, you were still in contact with the
23 International Red Cross?
24 A. Yes, I was in contact.
25 Q. Do you know whether the International Red Cross was involved in
1 the release of prisoners from the Manjaca camp?
2 A. It was under their patronage. They organised the closing of the
3 camp, and the transfer of people in the direction of Karlovac.
4 Q. What were your relations with Merhamet in 1992?
5 A. I did not have any relations with Merhamet. I was a member of the
6 executive board of the SDA for Banja Luka and this body was set up, as I
7 described earlier on, for the protection of human rights, under the
8 patronage of Merhamet, so on behalf of Merhamet. However, I had no
9 relations with Merhamet.
10 Q. Did the SDA have relations with Merhamet in 1992?
11 A. All the associations of Bosniaks had relations with it, but each
12 did its part of the work, the SDA, the political activities; Merhamet,
13 humanitarian; Preporod, cultural; the Islamic Community, religious. But
14 there was no intermingling or interference in the affairs of each other's
15 but there was a relationship among them being Bosniak institutions.
16 Q. I shall move on to another subject. Could the registry give the
17 witness Exhibit P --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I just want to draw your attention, Madam Fauveau,
19 that we will be having a break very soon. So if you think that within the
20 next five minutes, you can put the next few questions and close a
21 particular segment of your cross-examination, yes, go ahead. If you think
22 you're going to open a new chapter, then perhaps we could break now and
23 resume in half an hour's time. Tell me what you prefer.
24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would prefer to have the
25 break now, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: So we'll have a short break of about 25 minutes,
2 resuming at ten to 11.00. Thank you.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: In the meantime -- [Microphone not activated] Yes.
6 The witness is here. Madam Fauveau, please proceed with your
8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Before continuing my
9 cross-examination, I would like to request that the document that was
10 shown to the witness, and which is marked P -- it's the drawing of
11 Manjaca. I would like it to be designated as DT3 because it's a new
12 document and it has been marked by the witness.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's granted. And we may proceed.
14 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar
15 provide the witness with the Prosecutor's document DT7.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's DT7, it's not a Prosecution's document.
17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] P227.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: This is a document which you have seen already.
19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, this is the Official Gazette of the Region of
21 Krajina, which you have already seen. Could you have a look at the first
22 decision, the very first one, which has been signed by Milorad Sajic?
23 A. I'm sorry, but I can't find it here.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: It's the very first page, the very first page of
25 this document, if you have the right document before you, it's P227,
1 contains a decision of the Secretariat for National Defence of the ARK, of
2 the Autonomous Region of Krajina, dated 4th May, 1992, and signed, as
3 suggested to you, by Lieutenant Colonel Milorad Sajic. Has he got the
4 right document?
5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, do you now have the decision signed by Milorad Sajic?
7 A. Yes, I have.
8 Q. At the hearing last week, you said that you didn't know who
9 Milorad Sajic was but that you did know that he had connections with the
10 army; do you remember saying this?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you agree that he signed this decision as secretary of the
13 Regional Secretariat of National Defence?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you agree that this organ, the National Defence Secretariat, is
16 not a military organ but an organ which is attached to the civilian
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You also spoke about Nikola Erceg. You said that he was the
20 president of the executive council.
21 A. Of the Executive Council of Krajina, of the Autonomous Region of
23 Q. Could you specify which executive council you were talking about,
24 of the assembly or of the Crisis Staff?
25 A. Of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region. That was in fact the
1 government, the government of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.
2 Q. So you do agree that the Autonomous Region of Krajina had an
3 assembly and this assembly had a government which was called the executive
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. At the hearing on the 1st of March, you mentioned regions and you
7 also mentioned the region of Banja Luka, Bihac and Tuzla. You said that
8 these regions were not -- did not belong to a legal category; is that
10 A. Yes, that's correct. They were, so to speak, historical regions,
11 which had been treated by the people as such. They would speak of the
12 Tuzla area or the Tuzla basin, the Banja Luka area, the Bihac and Sarajevo
13 area, the Mostar area, but they weren't in -- they didn't constitute a
14 constitutional category. It was an economic and industrial category, if
15 we are speaking about the regions in such a manner.
16 Q. Do you agree that before 1990, Banja Luka, Bihac and Tuzla were
17 centres of the association of municipalities?
18 A. No. They weren't centres of the association of municipalities.
19 Q. Do you want to say that before 1990, there was no association of
20 the municipalities of Banja Luka?
21 A. As far as I know, an association of municipalities of Banja Luka
22 did not exist. As far as I can remember, there was no such association of
23 municipalities of Banja Luka or of the municipalities of Bihac, no.
24 Q. Would you agree, however, that the association of municipalities
25 was a legal category in constitutional terms too? At least?
1 A. As far as I can remember, the association of municipalities in the
2 entire Bosnia and Herzegovina, which were municipalities in the sense of
3 municipalities which were self-managing, I think there was something but I
4 can't be explicit about this with regard to the municipalities, at the
5 level of local administration and self-management, but I don't know if
6 there were any associations of municipalities in these regions. But as
7 far as I can remember, Bosnia had 104 municipalities and all these
8 municipalities formed an association of municipalities as an association
9 of municipalities so to speak, which -- whose task was to develop local
10 administration and self-management. That's what I would say.
11 Q. If I said that they were related to the -- association of
12 municipalities in accordance with the Yugoslav constitution, you wouldn't
13 agree with me?
14 A. I wouldn't agree if you are thinking of the association of
15 municipalities within these autonomous regions. I wouldn't agree with
16 that. I know an association of municipalities but whether it was called
17 the association of municipalities or community of municipalities and this
18 was at the level of the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina, it was not at the
19 level of the Autonomous Region, not at the level of the Autonomous Region
20 for sure, because the constitution didn't provide for any sort of
22 Q. If I suggest that Bosnia was divided into seven associations of
23 municipalities, you wouldn't agree with that?
24 A. No, I wouldn't agree with that.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, may I ask you to be more specific
1 within a specific time frame because your question initially referred to
2 1990. Are you still in 1990?
3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, I am still talking
4 about the period concerned, before 1990, 1991.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] But I'm going to move on
7 to another subject in any case.
8 Q. At the hearing of the 26th of February, 2002, you said that you
9 had found out who was the president of the Crisis Staff?
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry, one moment, Madam Fauveau. There is a
11 further point that we would like to clarify.
12 JUDGE JANU: Would you be so kind and clarify for the Chamber and
13 give us the specific provision of the constitution you were just
14 elaborating on concerning the municipalities? And please do it because
15 you touch constitutional level very often, give us always the provision
16 because otherwise we cannot really know where are you going. Thank you.
17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President and Your
18 Honours, I have forwarded all the constitutions that are concerned, that
19 of Yugoslavia and Bosnia to the translation service and as soon as I have
20 the translations I have provide you with them.
21 MS. KORNER: I think we can probably assist. I think somewhere in
22 the bowels of the --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone Ms. Korner, microphone.
24 MS. KORNER: I think we may be able to assist. I think we do have
25 a translated copy somewhere of the constitution and we will have a look.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE JANU: Any way, if you explore a certain provision, you
2 yourself must know that provision so I think it would help to everybody if
3 you could mention that provision. I'm sure -- I know a lot of
4 constitutions so those provisions are very, very simple. They are not
6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Yugoslav constitution
7 unfortunately is not at all simple. It had more than 400 articles and
8 that is the case for the constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina too and as
9 this is not an expert in constitutional matters, as I'm not an expert in
10 constitutional matters, I don't -- I can't say this by heart.
11 JUDGE JANU: I didn't ask for opinion, but if you touch certain
12 provision, you can read that provision. I don't want you to read the
13 whole parts of the constitution but that certain provision.
14 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] If you allow me to do so,
15 the witness, Mr. Donia, referred to this matter.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: What is being asked actually of you, Madam Fauveau,
17 is very simple. You have suggested to the witness that there may have
18 been already in place in 1990 a system of association of municipalities,
19 which had, as its source, legal source, the constitution, as I understood
20 you, the constitution of the Republic of Yugoslavia, and Federal Republic
21 of Yugoslavia, and also the constitution of the -- of Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina. Did I understand you well?
23 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: So what Judge Janu is suggesting to you, and she is
25 right, that properly speaking when you address such a subject, such a
1 particular area, in putting a question to the witness, who I understand is
2 not an expert in constitutional law like you are not an expert in
3 constitutional law, you should identify to him the relevant part of the
4 constitution, say if it's section -- article 210, you would say, "Are you
5 aware that in terms of article 210 of the former republic -- the
6 constitution of the former Republic of Yugoslavia there were provisions
7 already in place for associations of municipalities?" Not just in Bosnia
8 and Herzegovina presumably but also in other regions. I don't know
9 because I have never studied the constitution of the former Republic of
10 Yugoslavia. If you don't have it now we will make up for it later on but
11 take it as the normal practice for the future.
12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I shall do so in the
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Madam Fauveau.
15 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. During the hearing of the 26th of February, 2002, you said that
17 you had learned who the president of the Crisis Staff was through the
18 decision that you had seen and which had been signed by this president,
19 and you also said that you had heard who the president of the Crisis Staff
20 was; is this correct?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. Do you know who the other members of the Crisis Staff were?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Could you tell us who the other members of the Crisis Staff were?
25 A. As we could see in the decision which I have here, on the second
1 page, this can be seen, and as far as I remember, this has already been
2 asked of me. I have already been asked whether I knew certain people from
3 that Crisis Staff, people whom I had identified and I said that I knew
4 certain details about some of them. I don't know all the people in the
5 Crisis Staff, but the ones I have heard about, I have mentioned these
6 people. I have said what I know about them.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Indeed, Madam Fauveau, what he has just affirmed now
8 is correct. He was asked this question, not by you admittedly but he was
9 asked this question and with reference to practically all the members of
10 the Crisis Staff as they appear on page 3 of Exhibit P227. So if we could
11 move to your next question, it would be better.
12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, but
13 the witness said at the hearing of the 26th of February that he had learnt
14 who the president was because he had been told, and thanks to reading the
15 decision from the Crisis Staff. He never referred to the decision that he
16 saw here, the decision according to which the members of the Crisis
17 Staff -- naming the members of the Crisis Staff. And what I'm interested
18 in is whether he had seen this decision at that time, that is to say in
20 JUDGE AGIUS: So the question is, Mr. Dzonlic, had you seen this
21 decision that you have in front of you, or anything like it, at the
22 relevant time, that is, in May, 1992, or thereabouts?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I didn't see it. And as far as
24 I can remember, I didn't say that I had seen it at the time. I never
25 stated such a thing, as far as I can remember now. I didn't see that
1 decision because I saw it here. The first time I saw the decision was
2 now. I mean not now, but in the course of the investigation, and I was
3 surprised when I saw, as far as I can remember, this is what I stated, I
4 didn't know that some of the people whom I knew were members of the Crisis
5 Staff, but in 1992, I knew that the president of the Crisis Staff was
6 Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin. This is something that I did know because this was
7 a well-known fact in the city but I hadn't seen the decision.
8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Could you tell us about the persons for whom you know that they
10 were members of the Crisis Staff in 1992?
11 A. I knew that Radoslav Brdjanin was the president of the Crisis
12 Staff. This I knew. But as far as the other people are concerned, I
13 didn't know that they were members of the Crisis Staff. I only knew that
14 Radoslav Brdjanin was the president because this is what was said in town,
15 there were stories that he was the president of the Crisis Staff.
16 Q. Have you ever heard -- did you ever hear in 1992 that General
17 Talic was a member of the Crisis Staff?
18 A. No, I didn't. I knew that he was the commander of the 1st Krajina
19 Corps but I never heard that he was a member of the Crisis Staff.
20 Q. At the hearing of the 26th of February, you said that the official
21 newspapers were sent to all those -- all the budget beneficiaries; is this
23 A. Yes. I said that the Official Gazettes would be sent to -- that
24 they should be sent and were sent to all budget beneficiaries, and to
25 economic -- to public institutions, to companies, to socially owned
2 Q. Do you agree that certain institutions were budget beneficiaries,
3 beneficiaries of the municipal budget and others were beneficiaries of the
4 republican budget?
5 A. That's how it should be. Yes, I agree that some of them were
6 beneficiaries at the municipal level and others at the republican level,
7 or rather -- yes, I agree that some institutions should be -- although in
8 Banja Luka, there weren't republican institutions and when I say that, I'm
9 thinking -- I'm referring to the institutions of the Republic of Bosnia
10 and Herzegovina. I don't know whether there were institutions of the
11 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Banja Luka.
12 Q. A beneficiary of the republican budget, would he have also
13 received the Official Gazette of the municipality?
14 A. I don't know that, but I assume that such a beneficiary should
15 receive it. But as that was a higher level body, then the lower level,
16 the municipality body, would not be obliged to do that, but by way of
17 information, he should receive it.
18 Q. So in Bosnia, the institutions that were beneficiaries of the
19 republican budget would receive the Official Gazette of the republic. And
20 the Official Gazettes of 104 municipalities, what about those?
21 A. When I said that as far as I am able to remember now, the question
22 was who received the Official Gazette of the Autonomous Region of Krajina,
23 and I said that the recipients should have been those who benefited from
24 the budget of the Autonomous Region. And the municipal Official Gazette
25 should have been received by beneficiaries of the municipal budget, and
1 institutions, public institutions, enterprises that were state-owned, that
2 most of the capital came from the state, so they should have received the
3 municipal Official Gazettes.
4 Q. Was the army an institution that benefited from the budget of the
5 republic? That was financed out of the republican budget?
6 A. I don't know which republic budget you are now referring to. Are
7 you referring to the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina? If you're referring
8 to the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the legal army of the Republic
9 of Bosnia and Herzegovina was financed out of the budget of the Republic
10 of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I don't know which republic budget you're
11 referring to.
12 Q. So the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina did use the budget of the
13 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
14 A. I believe that that is so.
15 Q. Did the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina receive the Official Gazettes
16 of the municipalities which were a part of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
17 A. I don't know that, but I doubt that the army received the
18 municipal Official Gazette. I don't know, but I doubt that the army
19 received it, the municipal gazette, but I don't know.
20 Q. Would you agree in that case that the Army of Republika Srpska
21 also received the Official Gazette of Republika Srpska and not the
22 Official Gazettes of the municipalities?
23 MS. KORNER: I object to that question. How can he answer that?
24 He wasn't part of the Army of Republika Srpska.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you in a position to answer that question,
1 Mr. Dzonlic?
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, are you in a position to answer that question,
4 Mr. Dzonlic?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you possibly know?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can just -- I think I could just
8 express an opinion of mine.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think we need opinions. It's -- the whole
10 question is you are being asked a question, whether you are in a position
11 to answer it or not. And that's what we want to know, whether you could
12 have possibly been in information which would have put you in a position
13 to answer it. If you don't know, just say, "I don't know."
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I don't know.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: That's it. So we will move to something else.
16 Thank you.
17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. During the hearing on the 28th of February, you said that you were
19 not aware of the expression "state of war," or "imminent threat of war."
20 A. I don't remember now. Could you perhaps remind me of that? That
21 I said that I didn't know of the expression "state of war," or "immediate
22 threat of war"? Maybe, as far as I can remember, when I was asked in
23 connection with the Crisis Staff, I said that as far as I remembered and
24 as far as I knew, the Crisis Staff was provided for by the law in
25 emergencies such as floods, fires, earthquakes, natural disasters, but
1 that I didn't know it was envisaged for a time of war or immediate threat
2 of war. If that is what you're referring to.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: If you have the transcript, Madam Fauveau, would you
4 just read the excerpt to him, to the witness, because I think you are
5 talking at cross-purposes here.
6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The question was -- did we
7 speak before of another text? That was the question by Ms. Korner. And
8 the answer was, "We didn't talk about war. We spoke about natural
9 disasters, earthquakes, floods, et cetera. We didn't speak of a state of
10 war but of emergencies."
11 Q. My question to the witness is whether, in other texts, he saw this
13 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, could I just have the page number
14 reference? In the LiveNote, if that's possible.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: 2474, Livenote.
16 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, could you answer that question? Have you seen in any
19 Yugoslav text this expression being used?
20 A. I said that as far as I knew, the notion of a Crisis Staff applied
21 to what I said before, to these extraordinary situations, emergencies, and
22 I think that it was regulated by the law on civil defence. That's what I
23 think. And as far as I can remember, there was the law on civil defence.
24 I don't know of any other document or act.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Mr. Dzonlic. The question that you are
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 being asked is a very simple, straightforward one. You are not being
2 asked to explain what, in your opinion, should have been or ought to have
3 been the rationale of a Crisis Staff. You are being asked sicate
4 simpliciter a very simple question: Did you at any time during the period
5 in question, ever see a document in which the phrase "state of war or
6 imminent or immediate threat of war" appeared or featured? Obviously in
7 relation to the constitution or the setting up of the Crisis Staff.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not see such a document.
9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation].
10 Q. If I were to suggest to you that Article 317 of the Yugoslav
11 constitution confers to executive body's special rights in a state of war
12 or in a state of imminent threat of war, would you agree with that?
13 A. I would agree with you.
14 Q. So you have seen that expression elsewhere before?
15 A. I haven't seen it but if you say that it is Article 318 or 19,
16 whatever you said, of the constitution, then I -- I don't remember seeing
17 it, but if it is an article of the constitution, then I would agree with
18 you. Perhaps at some point in time earlier on I did see it while I was a
19 student, while I was at the university, but I would agree with you.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] -- full faith in you and
21 your knowledge of the Yugoslav constitution, Madam Fauveau.
22 MS. KORNER: But, Your Honour, the difficulty is that if it hadn't
23 been clarified the way the question is phrased, "Would you agree with
24 me?" I think, so we all understand what the witness is saying, it should
25 be phrased, "Have you ever seen article?" because otherwise when we come
1 back to read the transcript and it hasn't been clarified, we are going to
2 have terrible problems.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's been clarified.
4 MS. KORNER: But as a matter of principle.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go ahead. Maybe you can send Mr. Dzonlic back
6 home. Yes, Madam Fauveau.
7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm
8 concerned about the interpreters so I was listening.
9 Q. During the hearing of the 27th of February this year, you said
10 that the SDA took the decision not to take part in the Municipal Assembly
11 of Banja Luka at a given point in time. Could you tell us what time of
12 year this was?
13 A. I cannot be specific about when this happened, but I do know that
14 such a decision was taken, and I noticed that when I was - during the
15 investigation and during my testimony - referring to dates, that I had
16 problems with dates, because it was a long time ago, so I don't know when
17 this was but I do know that we took the decision to withdraw, to pull out
18 of the parliament.
19 Q. Could it have been in April, 1992?
20 A. I don't know. I said that I didn't know. So I can't give you a
21 date. I can't tell you when it was. There were many events, numerous
22 developments so it is very difficult. I simply can't say whether it is
23 possible that it was in April.
24 Q. You also said that that decision was also taken or a similar
25 decision was taken by the HDZ.
1 A. I said that the HDZ also -- I'm not aware of their decision, but I
2 do know that there were negotiations with the HDZ and that they also
3 supported this decision and that they also withdrew from the parliament,
4 so they probably took a decision to that effect. So I -- but I do know
5 that they withdrew from the parliament and that there were interparty
6 negotiations. I took part in them sometimes, but there were daily
7 negotiations and discussions as to whether I was present when that joint
8 decision was made, I don't know, but I do know that they also withdrew
9 from the parliament.
10 Q. Do you know who was the president of the HDZ?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Who was it?
13 A. It was Mr. Nikola Gabelic, I think his name was, Nikola Gabelic.
14 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Gabelic continued to attend municipal
15 assembly sessions of Banja Luka?
16 A. I don't know whether he continued to attend sessions. I am of the
17 opinion, what is more, that he was not a municipal deputy, as far as I
18 know. I know he was president of the HDZ for Banja Luka but I'm not sure
19 that he was a member of the municipal assembly. He may have been. I
20 don't know. I just do know that he was president of the HDZ for Banja
22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registry show
23 the witness DB32B, Brdjanin Defence document?
24 Q. It's an exhibit whose pages have not been numbered unfortunately,
25 so Mr. Dzonlic, if you could look from the back of the document, and find
1 the eighth page from the back?
2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I am afraid that the
3 witness has not found the right page.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I've managed to find it.
5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. It's a page with three signatures?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the English version be placed on the ELMO
8 for the interpreters, please?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please put the English
10 version on the ELMO so that the interpreters can follow?
11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm afraid the witness
12 still hasn't found the right page.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, could you show the usher the page you
14 are referring to so that he can then direct the witness accordingly,
15 please? The page where there are the signatures.
16 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, would you agree that at the very bottom of the page,
18 there is a certification of Nikola Gabelic as being a member of the
19 Municipal Assembly of Banja Luka?
20 A. Yes, I agree.
21 Q. Would you agree that this testifies to the presence of Nikola
22 Gabelic at a meeting of the Municipal Assembly of Banja Luka held on the
23 16th of October, 1992?
24 A. Yes, I agree.
25 Q. So Nikola Gabelic, the president of the HDZ, did indeed attend
1 meetings of the Municipal Assembly of Banja Luka in October, 1992?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. During the hearing on the 27th of February, you said that more
4 than 50.000 Bosniaks and more than 30.000 Croats left Banja Luka.
5 A. Yes, I said that.
6 Q. And during the hearing of the 1st of March, you said there were
7 28.700 Bosniaks in Banja Luka. Do you remember that?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Could you explain, then, how 50.000 Bosniaks could have left Banja
10 Luka when there was a total of 28.700 of them in Banja Luka?
11 A. I can explain. I worked, as I have already said, on the census of
12 1981 and the census of 1991. As far as I am able to remember now, at the
13 last census, in addition to Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs, there were
14 Yugoslavs and there were "others". While I was working as a census taker
15 in the census commission, I would meet a large number of people who, by
16 first and last names, or only by one of the two, that is by first or last
17 name, were in fact Muslims, that is Bosniaks, so that, as far as I can
18 remember, when a referendum was held, the referendum for an independent
19 Bosnia and Herzegovina, on the basis of the listings of all citizens of
20 Bosnia and Herzegovina, we assigned people to count among all those
21 Yugoslavs who declared themselves as Yugoslavs and who, judging by the
22 name, that is the first and last name and the name of their father, and I
23 remember that perhaps out of 23.000 -- sorry, 2.000 or 3.000.
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter corrects herself.
25 A. I'm sorry, there were about, out of the 23.000, there were 20.000
1 Muslims. So it was on that basis that I made that statement. Because we
2 treated those people as Muslims. And they declared themselves as
3 Yugoslavs because Yugoslavia was our state, and as far as I know, the
4 concept of a Yugoslav nation never existed, but you see, everyone was
5 allowed to declare themselves as they wished, in terms of ethnicity, so
6 they could also declare themselves as Yugoslavs, but judging by their
7 names and surnames and father's names, we established that in Banja Luka
8 there were more than 50.000 Muslims, members of the Islamic faith, and it
9 was on that basis that I said that close to 50.000 Bosniaks and close to
10 30.000 Croats had been expelled from Banja Luka.
11 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, when there were elections in Banja Luka, there were
12 leftist parties, the reformists and the SDP party. Do you agree with me?
13 A. Yes. But I wouldn't quite agree entirely, because the SDP was a
14 leftist party, whereas the reformists, I wouldn't call them a leftist
15 party, but rather an idea of reformism.
16 Q. Among the candidates at the elections on the list of these
17 parties, there were people of all nationalities, were there not?
18 A. Yes, there were.
19 Q. Were there any Yugoslavs?
20 A. I don't know. I assume there were.
21 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar give
22 the witness Exhibi -- Brdjanin Defence document DB31B.
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I just ask where we are going on
24 this, and what the relevance of this is to the Defence case for General
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau?
2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] If Ms. Korner accepts the
3 cross-examination I did of the witness, I don't remember his number, then
4 I will not engage in this exercise. I'm sure Ms. Korner knows the number
5 of the witness. If not, it has to do with the credibility of the witness
6 and the number of Muslims in Banja Luka.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry, I have not really understood you. Would
8 you repeat or rephrase what you said? I mean, the question that
9 Ms. Korner has just put or the remark, in other words, she would like to
10 know where you're heading and why you are asking this sequence of
11 questions, having already had a statement from -- or a reply from the
12 witness explaining why, according to him, the number of Bosniaks or
13 Muslims was not just the 28.000 whatever but also another 20-odd thousand
14 from the rest who had declared themselves to be as Yugoslavs, so where are
15 you heading now?
16 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we can't
17 accept that among the 20.000 Yugoslavs there were 20.000 Muslims.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Okay. Go ahead but
19 please keep it within acceptable, because although he used to work in the
20 census department, I do not consider him the spokesman for the census
21 department, so let's see what this document has to tell us, anyway.
22 As usual, Mr. Usher, please to the witness you give the version in
23 B/C/S and on the ELMO, please put the English version so that the
24 interpreters can follow. Yes, your question, Madam Fauveau, please.
25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Before pursuing the
1 matter, Mr. President, I'm referring to the second witness who put forward
2 this thesis, if the Prosecutor asked this question each time during the
3 examination, then I think that this is relevant to the case. So -- as we
4 are obliged to contest everything, I prefer to contest this.
5 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, could you have a look at page 5, the list of
6 candidates, the list of reformist candidates?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because we don't have the English
9 version on the ELMO yet. It should be easier in the English version.
10 Yes, Mr. Ackerman?
11 MR. ACKERMAN: The translators, I believe, do have this document,
12 if that's what your concern is, Your Honour. We certainly gave it to
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Interpreters, do you have this document handy?
15 THE INTERPRETER: No, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, once more, you're wrong. They don't.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, if this is the document, I have a vague
18 recollection, but without the name of the witness that was put, which
19 shows that some of the names of people calling themselves Yugoslavs are
20 clearly not Muslim names, then I'm not disputing that.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it's that document. I think it's
22 another document which purports or gives us lists of members or candidates
23 for the different parties. I don't recall the names, remember the names
24 but it's a different document.
25 MS. KORNER: That's right. But it is the one that shows that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 people were calling themselves Yugoslavs with obviously not Bosniak
3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Exactly.
4 MS. KORNER: I accept that document.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: You accept that.
6 MS. KORNER: Yes.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we can go ahead, perhaps.
8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: The witness has still got to answer that question.
10 Have you found the page? Usher, can you bring me that document here,
11 please? Here. What we need is from part 4, this part of the page, and
12 then crosses over to the other page.
13 Do you want, Madam Fauveau, the first part of the first nine
14 names? Because in the English version, they are partly, very few, on
15 page -- on one page, and the -- on page 4, and the bulk is on page 5. If
16 you are going to ask direct questions to the witness with reference to
17 someone in particular, then please tell me whether it's the first nine or
18 the bulk from ten to 116 or then the end, remaining from 117 to 129.
19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The first name is under
20 number 6 but I don't know if it would be useful to proceed with this
21 series of questions, given what Ms. Korner has just said.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. But you don't have a confirmation from
23 the witness.
24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well, I will ask some
1 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, do you have the list of candidates of the Reformist
2 Party in front of you?
3 A. Yes, I have it.
4 Q. Can you see whether, among these persons, these candidates, can
5 you see whether there are any Yugoslavs among them?
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please put it on the ELMO.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see that.
8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. If you have a look at the person under number 19, Spasoje
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is this person a Muslim?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Could you have a look at number 22, would you agree with me that
15 this person is a Muslim?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The person under number 28, is that person a Muslim?
18 A. No.
19 Q. The persons under number 30 and 31, they are Muslims, you would
21 A. I would agree with regard to number 30.
22 Q. Number 31 is not a Muslim?
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I think -- I suggest to you, Madam Fauveau, that we
24 could stop here with regard to this list, and move ahead. If that is
25 agreeable to you. Thank you.
1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, would you agree that the choice of nationality is a
3 matter of personal conviction?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In that case, why did you take the liberty of treating Bosniaks,
6 people who had declared themselves to be of Yugoslav nationality, why did
7 you take the liberty to declare them as Bosniaks?
8 A. Well, we didn't declare them to be Bosniaks. We considered them
9 to be Muslims. And quite a few Muslims chose to declare themselves as
10 Yugoslavs, but we considered them to be Muslims because we claimed, as I
11 said, on the basis of their first and last name and on the basis of their
12 father's name, we claimed that they were Muslims.
13 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, in 1991, when the census was taken, a Bosniak
14 nationality did not exist.
15 A. Anyone could declare himself or herself to be what he or she
16 wanted to be. I can even remember that there was one person who declared
17 himself to be an Eskimo. People were free to declare themselves as they
18 liked in terms of nationality. And I can really remember that one person
19 declared himself to be an Eskimo.
20 Q. Very well. But today, the people who declare themselves to be
21 Bosniak in 1991, they would say that they were Muslims; is that not
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In that case, why do you consider that people who declared
25 themselves to be Yugoslav were in fact Muslims?
1 A. As I said, because of their first and last name or because of --
2 either because of the surname or because of the first name, and also on
3 the basis of the father's name. I would just like to add that if you look
4 at this from the perspective of nationality, of the nationality of Muslims
5 within the former Yugoslavia, and as far as I know, and I do know this, on
6 the basis of what my parents claimed, my mother was not able to declare
7 herself in national terms. She had to remain undeclared. But men were
8 allowed to declare themselves. They would be either Serbs or Croats. But
9 they could not declare themselves to be Muslims after the Second World
10 War. As far as I remember, in 1974, the constitution of the Socialist
11 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina recognised the category of Muslims,
12 recognised Muslims as a nationality, as they say. They recognised Muslims
13 with a capital M. Up until then, women were not allowed to declare their
14 nationality. They did not have this right. And when I say why people who
15 declare themselves to be Yugoslavs, why we treated them as Muslims, I said
16 on what basis this was done, and in historical terms, for a certain time,
17 women were not allowed to declare themselves as being members of a certain
18 nationality. It's the name which is indicative. Muslims have their own
19 names. They don't have the names of other peoples. But these Yugoslavs
20 were probably -- probably came from mixed marriages, and those who were
21 communists or rather atheists, they would declare themselves as Yugoslavs,
22 to be members of the Yugoslav people, although I know that this people was
23 not even recognised in the former Socialist Federal Republic of
24 Yugoslavia. There were Slovenes, Croats, Macedonians, Montenegrins,
25 Muslims with a capital M, that was recognised in 1974, but there were no
1 Yugoslavs. But since anyone was allowed to declare himself or herself to
2 be a member of a certain nationality, this is what people did.
3 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, I don't think I have understood you very well. Are
4 you telling us that in Yugoslavia before 1974, women and men did not have
5 the same rights, that women did not have civilian and political rights?
6 A. I just want to say that I don't know up until when, but women who
7 were Muslims, were not able to declare themselves as being members of a
8 certain nationality. Therefore they had no rights either. They had to
9 remain undeclared, undeclared. And when they were able to declare
10 themselves as being members of a certain nationality, I cannot say
11 exactly, but I think that the concept of a Muslim people, with a capital
12 M, and reference in this case was made to the -- to what they declared
13 themselves to be in terms of nationality rather than to religion. So a
14 Muslim in this national sense, this idea was introduced I think, in 1974,
15 perhaps even in 1971, when certain amendments were introduced. I can't
16 state this exactly. But I do know that they weren't able to declare
17 themselves as members of a given people. First of all, my mother and
18 everyone else, they remained undeclared, because they couldn't state which
19 nationality, which people, they belonged to, whereas men were not able to
20 declare themselves to be Muslims but they were able to declare themselves
21 as Serbs or Croats.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry, but I'm now suggesting and
23 objecting to this line. We are getting so far away from any point that is
24 relevant to -- as far as I can see, General Talic's Defence. Your Honour,
25 I accept that the witness gave a description of a number of Muslims. He's
1 given his explanation. Madam Fauveau has, in our submission,
2 cross-examined quite long enough about this.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau, what do you have to say?
4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] In fact, it's not
5 pertinent to the Defence of General Talic, but it is a very important, as
6 far as the witness's credibility is concerned. But I'm going to move on
7 to another subject.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] I said I appreciate that,
9 thank you, Madam Fauveau. I thought it was on. It was off. I have a
10 habit of switching it off sometimes or have it switched off, I don't
12 Yes, please proceed. And Mr. Dzonlic, I noticed as we go along, I
13 fully understand that you've been here for days at length, and this is
14 tiring. I have noticed that your answers now tend to become longer and
15 longer and longer, perhaps it's time for me to remind you of what I told
16 you on the first day you arrived here. Please answer the question, the
17 whole question, and nothing but the question, because you will -- that
18 way, you will go back to your country quicker. Thank you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I promise that I'll finish
22 Q. You said that the mosque called Potpecinska Mosque was damaged in
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How many mosques were there in Banja Luka?
1 A. There were 16.
2 Q. When you left Banja Luka in February, 1993, had the Ferhadija
3 Mosque been destroyed?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Had the Arnaudija Mosque been destroyed?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Had the Sefer Beg Mosque been destroyed?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Was there Catholic church in Banja Luka?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was there just one or were there several?
12 A. There were several of them.
13 Q. And the Catholic churches that you knew, had they been destroyed
14 when you left Banja Luka?
15 A. I heard that one -- one of them, whether it was a church or a
16 Catholic monastery in the Paprikovac settlement, I heard that it had been
17 set on fire while I was still down there, that was in 1992. And that
18 another Catholic institution, in the direction of Laktasi, where there
19 were sisters of a certain order, I heard that it had been destroyed too.
20 I didn't see that but that's something that I heard.
21 Q. But you personally, did you personally see a Catholic church that
22 had been destroyed or damaged in Banja Luka before you left?
23 A. No, I didn't personally see that.
24 Q. Do you know how many orthodox churches there were in Banja Luka?
25 A. I don't know how many there were but there were several of them,
1 three or four, I think.
2 Q. I'm going to move on to the last series of questions.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: At this point, please choose whether you want to
4 continue for the next five minutes or whether you prefer to stop now and
5 resume after the break?
6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I would prefer to stop, I
7 think it will take me another 15 minutes, more or less.
8 MS. KORNER: All I want to know, is realistically, the next
9 witness has actually been waiting since 10.00 this morning. Am I going to
10 get him started? I know, Mr. Ackerman has another couple of matters to
12 JUDGE AGIUS: So the situation seems to be as follows: We stop at
13 half 12.00. We resume roughly at just before 1.00. We have another 15
14 minutes to 20 minutes cross-examination. I don't know what Mr. Ackerman
15 has for us. I don't know how long you expect to keep us engaged.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: I think quite brief. Sometimes things get longer
17 than I expect them to be but I think quite brief, Your Honour.
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I have a few questions in re-examination
19 but only two or three, three or four, but I mean realistically is it worth
20 keeping a witness in a rather unpleasant --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, frankly, we can send the witness back to
22 where he's staying because all we can get from him is the initial few
24 MS. KORNER: And, Your Honour, we have to go into closed session
25 as well and that's another few minutes.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. If we finish ten minutes earlier than we
2 are expected to, it's not going to matter much. I think you can send the
3 witness and we will resume at 1.00 or 5 to 1.00, and we will take it up
4 from there. So. And then we will have the whole day of tomorrow.
5 Incidentally there was some talk about the possibility of us sitting in
6 the afternoon rather than in the morning tomorrow. It's not going to
7 happen. The sitting is as scheduled at 9.00 in the morning. Thank you.
8 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: So can we have the witness brought in, please?
11 Yes, Madam Fauveau.
12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, you said during the hearing of the 28th of February
14 this year that during the third and last search that took place in your
15 house, the people who were doing the search seized the permission that you
16 had to leave Banja Luka.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When did you receive that document of permission to leave Banja
20 A. I don't know. I can't tell you time wise when it was I received
21 it. I don't remember. Maybe -- I don't know. Prior to them seizing that
22 permit, I had received it, but when, I don't know.
23 Q. And in order to obtain this permission, did you fulfil all the
24 necessary formalities?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. And you went to the police to say that you were going to change
2 your address?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When did you in fact intend to leave Banja Luka?
5 A. I decided on the 20th of February, I think it was, anyway I left
6 on the 26th but I decided to leave, to take that step, maybe ten or so
7 days prior to that.
8 Q. So when you had the permission to leave Banja Luka, you hadn't
9 even decided to leave Banja Luka?
10 A. I had intended to go but I still hadn't decided definitely.
11 Q. And while telling the police that you no longer lived at the
12 address at which you were living, you were able to remain in Banja Luka
13 without any problem?
14 A. Yes. I deregistered very early on. As for all the other
15 documents, I got hold of them much later. It was early on that I
16 deregistered or reported the change of address in Banja Luka. And I
17 remained there until the 26th of February. I think it was the 26th of
19 Q. From the moment you informed the police that you were going to
20 leave Banja Luka, you continued working in Banja Luka?
21 A. Yes, I did work.
22 Q. So in a certain sense, you were in Banja Luka illegally, in a
24 A. I wouldn't call it illegally. I was in my own house. I was in
25 Banja Luka. Now, whether that's illegal or legal. I wouldn't call it
2 Q. But you changed your domicile, didn't you? You informed the
3 police that you were changing your domicile?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Let me move on, then, to another question. Finally, when you left
6 Banja Luka on the 26th of February, 1993, you said that you were
7 prohibited from leaving the town. You said that during your previous
8 testimony, on the 28th of February.
9 A. Yes. I went to the secretariat with my wife to see the chief or
10 the secretary, I forget the full title. Anyway I know that his name was,
11 I think, Denic, and he said to me, "I have received orders that your
12 husband may not leave Banja Luka."
13 Q. During that same hearing, you said, and it is page 2.490, the
14 transcript in French, so there may be a difference in the page number, you
15 said, "Here is the -- that is how I joined the convoy, but officially I
16 was on the list for Novska but I left in a completely different direction
17 and I entered our territory." Were you really telling us that what you
18 were prohibited from doing was leaving for Travnik?
19 A. No, no. That was not what I intended to say. What I meant was
20 that I officially applied through the Municipal Red Cross. I handed in my
21 documents in one direction, but to conceal my destination because I was
22 very much afraid, then illegally, contrary to that list, I went in this
23 other direction to Travnik.
24 Q. Were you disturbed because you were on the Red Cross list for
25 Novska? Were you worried?
1 A. I was worried. I was worried. This was maybe four or five days
2 prior to my leaving for Travnik or maybe even two or three days prior to
3 that, and I was -- I spent two nights at my aunt's. I didn't sleep in my
4 own home because they took this permit and they said that I wasn't allowed
5 to leave, and I was concerned. As far as I can remember, this was three
6 or four days before -- anyway, a short while. And then I joined this
7 other convoy. I was afraid.
8 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, would you agree with me if I were to suggest to you
9 that the authorities of Republika Srpska would not let you go to Travnik
10 but would let you go to Novska?
11 A. No, no. I wouldn't agree with you. They told me or rather this
12 gentleman said to me, or rather my wife, "Your husband is not allowed to
13 leave Banja Luka." That's what he said. And the fact that they took away
14 this permit, my understanding was that I wasn't allowed to go anywhere,
15 not just in one particular direction.
16 Q. Why were you on this Red Cross list for Novska?
17 A. I applied to the Red Cross to leave, believing that as this was
18 the Red Cross, it was independent and unbiased, and I'd go through them
19 because it was more difficult because I thought I couldn't leave through
20 Perka's agency because all the lists were being checked and that is why I
21 applied to the Red Cross, and I asked a friend of mine who used to be at
22 the university with me, and her mother worked in the Municipal Red Cross
23 to help me and to put me on this list, because I thought they wouldn't
24 check the lists of the Municipal Red Cross. That's what I thought.
25 Q. So in spite of the prohibition, you went to the Red Cross and you
1 asked to leave Banja Luka?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. And eventually, why did you change your direction?
4 A. I told you, I consulted my parents and we agreed that if possible,
5 through Perka's agency, I could join the convoy without being on the list,
6 I thought that would be safer for me, but if they were to be -- to trace
7 me, then they would trace me through the Red Cross in Novska and it proved
8 to be successful.
9 Q. The people in this agency, did they know that you were on this
10 convoy for Travnik?
11 A. My mother and my wife went to see Perka, as I said, through a
12 colleague of my wife's, and they agreed with her, they gave her 500
13 Deutschmarks, and she said there would be no problems, that I should come
14 on such and such a day, and I got on, and I assume that they knew that I
15 was on this convoy. I arrived in the morning, I don't remember what time
16 it was, and I got on.
17 Q. So you trusted these people, you weren't afraid that they would
18 denounce you?
19 A. I wouldn't call it trust. In those days at least, they would do
20 anything for money, and that's what they did, and it was a risk, and they
21 were ready to do anything for money. And I thought that this colleague of
22 my wife's was related to Perka, I was just afraid of being on the list
23 that would be sent to the police, and she said that she would not put me
24 on the list.
25 Q. Just a moment ago you told us that you thought that it would be
1 safer to leave through the Red Cross and now you're saying that they did
2 anything for money. Why in that case did you not go directly to that
4 A. I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand your question.
5 Q. A moment ago, you told me that you went to the Red Cross because
6 you believed it was safer than the agency. Now you're telling me that it
7 was possible to do anything with money in the agency. So in that case,
8 why didn't you go directly to the agency?
9 A. I didn't go to the agency. When this Perka told my mother and my
10 wife that I wouldn't be on the list and that I could join the convoy, I
11 decided to do that.
12 Q. To close this subject, so one could say that this Madam Perka
13 assisted you?
14 A. Well, yes, she did help me.
15 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, would you agree with me that the authorities of
16 Republika Srpska would not allow men of military age to go to Travnik
17 because they would then be mobilised into the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
18 A. Yes, yes. Very few able-bodied men, or that was the story in
19 town, could go to Travnik, very few who were of military age could go to
21 Q. But you, you did indeed leave for Travnik?
22 A. Yes. I went to Travnik.
23 Q. And you were indeed mobilised to the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
24 A. Yes. I was a member of the army for nine months.
25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no
1 more questions of this witness.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So Ms. Korner, re-examination?
3 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, may I just understand the
4 suggestion about the permission being denied to leave Banja Luka? Was the
5 suggestion that he would have been allowed to leave Banja Luka if he'd put
6 down Novska rather than Travnik?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: That is how I understood it.
8 MS. KORNER: That's correct, is it?
9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely so. That is
10 the suggestion of the Defence.
11 Re-examined by Ms. Korner:
12 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, I want to go back just over a couple of matters you
13 were asked about. When you made your statement to the Office of the
14 Prosecutor in October, 1992, how clear were you on what months certain
15 events happened in 1992?
16 A. I always gave estimates. I was never sure about dates. In the
17 course of this testimony, I realise that I made some errors regarding
18 dates, so I was not certain. I was not sure about dates.
19 Q. You were asked a number of questions about the meeting that was
20 held to discuss the setting up of the Commission for Prisoners of War, to
21 put it colloquially. It was put to you that in your statement you said
22 that was about April, and you were asked about the attack on Kozarac. Do
23 you remember that?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. I want to ask you this: Which is clearer, that this meeting took
1 place in April or that it took place after the attack had happened at
3 A. I think it was April but I'm not quite sure. I think I would be
4 more certain of saying that it was in April.
5 Q. From your recollection now, was that meeting after the attack on
6 Kozarac or are you unable to tell us?
7 A. I'm not able to say. I know there was an attack. I know that
8 there were events in Prijedor. But I cannot explicitly say whether it was
9 before or after the attack on Kozarac.
10 Q. All right. Now, one of the questions that you were asked by
11 Mr. Ackerman related to your description of the procedures that had to be
12 carried out in order for a person to leave Banja Luka. You remember those
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. And it was suggested that in effect, much the same regulations had
16 existed before the Crisis Staff came into operation. Do you remember
18 A. Yes, I do remember.
19 Q. One of the matters that you said you had to do after the Crisis
20 Staff was to sign a document saying that you were leaving Banja Luka
21 voluntarily and for economic reasons. Was that something that had to be
22 brought into --
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I didn't ask him about that. She's
24 raising a new matter that was not covered on cross-examination. I think
25 that's inappropriate. I didn't ask him anything about a document and
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 signing a document about voluntarily departing.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: You may not have asked him but he did mention it.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: He mentioned it on direct examination. I didn't
4 ask any questions about it. She is just repeating some direct
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Point taken. I think he is right. Unless you can
7 prove that he did ask him the question. I don't remember.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, he was taken through -- if there is no
9 suggestion, may I say, that this particular aspect, saying -- leaving
10 voluntarily and for economic reasons existed before the Crisis Staff, then
11 I certainly won't pursue it but as Your Honour appreciates because --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand your point definitely. The only thing
13 is that here and now, I don't remember whether he stated -- he made that
14 affirmation as a result of a question from Mr. Ackerman or whether it was
15 in response to a question from the Prosecution.
16 MS. KORNER: No, Your Honour. He gave that long description in
17 the middle of which --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: And Mr. Ackerman was -- and I stopped him actually
19 at a certain point.
20 MS. KORNER: But the point is this, Your Honour: As Mr. Ackerman
21 doesn't feel it's necessary to put his case properly, I don't know at the
22 moment whether that particular part is contested, in other words, it's
23 suggested that that also happened before the Crisis Staff or not. So I'm
24 going back over that one part because that seems --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I understand and I think I will allow the question.
1 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
2 Q. Mr. Dzonlic, that part of the procedure you described, did that
3 exist before the advent of the Crisis Staff?
4 A. No, it didn't exist.
5 Q. You were asked about releases that had taken place from the
6 Manjaca camp at various periods of the year. Do you know anything about a
7 visit made to Manjaca by a delegation led by a gentleman called Sir John
9 A. No.
10 Q. Were you aware of any combined Red Cross/European Community
11 Monitoring Mission airlift from Manjaca in about September of 1992?
12 A. No, I don't know about any such mission.
13 Q. Now, I want you to have a look again, please, at the document that
14 you were shown of an order signed by General Talic, which has been marked
15 DT2. Perhaps the witness could have the B/C/S copy and the English should
16 be put on the ELMO.
17 THE REGISTRAR: The English is on the back side of the B/C/S.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: So we can have two copies.
19 MS. KORNER: All right. Do Your Honours have copies there?
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And the copies we have are single-sided
21 print. So it's no problem. But if we need them for the ELMO for the
22 interpreters, do you have the document now? I'm addressing the
24 THE INTERPRETER: We don't seem to be able to locate it, Your
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm not -- I'm simply going to break
2 this up so my questions will be --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
4 MS. KORNER:
5 Q. First, Mr. Dzonlic, before were you shown this today, had you ever
6 seen that order?
7 A. No, I hadn't.
8 Q. Were you aware that on the 7th of June, 1992, General Talic had
9 issued such an order to his troops?
10 A. I apologise but I only have the document in English. Earlier,
11 during the examination by the lady, I'm sorry, I've forgotten the name, I
12 think that is the document that I had and there was point 3, when the lady
13 told me to read it.
14 MS. KORNER: Could I see what the witness has got? He hasn't got
15 the B/C/S version. He's just got an English version.
16 THE REGISTRAR: This was the document that was given to me during
17 the break because I gave my copy to one of the judges and kept the B/C/S
19 MS. KORNER: Well, in fact, hang on, I've got -- I'm sorry, I've
20 got one here. There is a B/C/S version, Mr. Usher. Thank you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it.
22 Q. All right. Mr. Dzonlic, I'll repeat the question. Were you aware
23 that apparently on the 7th of June, General Talic had issued an order in
24 these terms to his troops?
25 A. No, I wasn't aware of that.
1 Q. When you saw Manjaca, how would you describe the accommodation?
2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is a
3 question that was already put to the witness during the examination in
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think Madam Fauveau is correct, is right. Could
6 you rephrase it in some way which would be acceptable within the framework
7 of a re-examination?
8 MS. KORNER: Very well.
9 Q. When you saw Manjaca, did that accord with the order that says
10 that prisoners of war should be treated in a dignified way, humane way,
11 without violence?
12 A. It was quite the contrary. It was a -- it was contrary to this
13 order. It was inhumane, it was -- there were lots of insults, there was
14 lots of violence and so on.
15 Q. In your view, and you had examined the Geneva Conventions, was the
16 treatment of prisoners at Manjaca in accordance with the conventions or as
17 described here with the provisions of international war law?
18 MR. ACKERMAN: I object to that. That's the ultimate question
19 that this Chamber must decide and this witness should not be asked to
20 substitute his judgement for yours or to suggest what your judgement
21 should be with regard to whether or not the treatment of prisoners at
22 Manjaca was in accord with Geneva Conventions. That's your job. You have
23 to decide that at the end of the day.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: It is definitely our job, Mr. Ackerman, but also the
25 witness stated that he -- one of the roles that he was playing was to
1 liaise with the Municipal Red Cross or International Red Cross and that
2 part of the visit was intended to have a report prepared, which he did in
3 fact prepare. So that would have covered also aspects under the Geneva
4 Conventions. Why not?
5 MR. ACKERMAN: Will I then be permitted to bring witnesses to give
6 their opinions as to whether the Prosecution has proved a case against
7 Mr. Brdjanin or not?
8 JUDGE AGIUS: What kind of witnesses?
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Just anybody, anybody who is familiar with the law,
10 to come say, "I've looked at the evidence in the case Your Honours and I
11 believe the Prosecution has failed to prove the case."
12 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not what we mean.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: He's being asked is the treatment there in
14 accordance with the Geneva Conventions. That is not his job. That's your
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I wouldn't ask this question were it not
17 for the fact that Mr. Dzonlic took with him the Geneva Conventions of
18 which he made a study and indeed raised with Commander Popovic that this
19 treatment was in breach.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: That is why I'm allowing him -- I mean, the
21 difference between any witnesses that you may refer to and Mr. Dzonlic
22 is -- that Mr. Dzonlic went there with a specific purpose -- specific
23 mission --
24 MS. KORNER: Further, may I finish? This document, may I say, was
25 not put in by Mr. Ackerman and I'm not sure why Mr. Ackerman as opposed to
1 Madam Fauveau is on his feet, but this document was put in by Madam
2 Fauveau presumably to show that Talic had issued instructions that the
3 camp should be in accordance with the provisions of international laws of
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: I seem to recall that I asked the witness some
7 questions that had to do with the law and he was not permitted to answer
8 them because he was not qualified as an expert on the law. I think the
9 Judge said he's not qualified as an expert on the law and therefore he
10 doesn't have to answer the question. Now, apparently, he's being treated
11 as an expert on the law of the Geneva Conventions and international law
12 and is now going to be permitted to give his opinion as an expert on this
13 matter. And I think that's inappropriate.
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't -- I don't want to waste time.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.
16 MS. KORNER: I will withdraw the question purely out of the
17 interest of time and not because I accept Mr. Ackerman's objection.
18 Q. Finally, Mr. Dzonlic, I want to ask you, please, to look at a
19 document --
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, this was disclosed to the Defence on the
21 23rd of August of last year. It wasn't put in because I didn't appreciate
22 that this point was going to be challenged. Would Your Honours -- I think
23 I'm going to ask the witness to have the B/C/S copy and for the other copy
24 to be put on the ELMO so that we can see the English version. I want the
25 witness to deal with it, please, and then we will deal with the exhibits,
1 I'm sorry, because we have to finish in five minutes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.
3 MS. KORNER:
4 Q. This is a document, Mr. Dzonlic, that I don't think you saw at the
5 time; is that correct? In other words, in February, 1993.
6 A. No, I didn't see it.
7 Q. In fact, I think the first time you saw it was when you were here?
8 A. Yes, that was the first time.
9 Q. It's dated the 2nd of February, 1993, "addressed to the Ministry
10 of Defence Banja Luka district to the chief, Banja Luka subject request,
11 in accordance with the agreement to control the issuance of permits for a
12 change of residence, we found out that before the agreement, a permit to
13 move away issued to Amir Dzonlic", and gives your parents' name, born on
14 the 30th of October, 1959 in Banja Luka a lawyer, permanently residing in
15 Banja Luka" and gives your address. "We therefore ask you to find a way
16 to withdraw the permit and in future, refuse to issue this person a permit
17 to change his place of residence or to leave the Republika Srpska on other
18 grounds." And it's signed, "Chief of Sector Nedjeljko Kezic." Your
19 Honour, he's one of the people who appears on the list of the Crisis
21 Your Honour, technically this witness can't identify it, but as I
22 say, it was disclosed. I can deal with where it comes from but I'd ask
23 Your Honours to admit -- unless there is an objection, I'd ask Your
24 Honours to admit that and make it Exhibit P--
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, there being no objection, it will be admitted.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: There being so objection and also because the
3 document is definitely relevant, it's being admitted as Exhibit number --
4 MS. KORNER: 473.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: P473, please.
6 MS. KORNER: We will insure that copies will be distributed.
7 Thank you very much indeed, Mr. Dzonlic.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: So Mr. Dzonlic, that brings an end to your testimony
9 here. I thank you. You may withdraw.
10 We have a few minutes, I understand Mr. Ackerman -- you may
11 withdraw. I thank you so much for being so patient and for having been
12 with us to answer all these questions for one day after the other. Thank
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would just like to
15 thank you and to express my deep respect. I would also like to take this
16 opportunity to thank the Prosecution and the Defence for having conducted
17 themselves in an appropriate, in a correct, manner during this hearing.
18 And I wish good health to the accused and hope that they will be able to
19 face the truth and justice in the best way possible. Thank you.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may withdraw. Thank you.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman?
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour. The only thing that I had
24 to raise at this point, there are actually two matters. The first one is
25 we were having a discussion earlier on in the testimony of this witness
1 about the documents that he says were brought to him by clients which
2 showed that they had been dismissed because of the order of the Crisis
3 Staff. I want to have those documents produced. We stopped discussing it
4 the other day because it was being done in his presence and we are now out
5 of his presence and I think those are clearly the best evidence, and I
6 think they are producable and should be produced. And so I would ask the
7 Court to request or order the Prosecution to obtain those documents and
8 make them available.
9 And the other thing, Your Honour, I think Ms. Korner will talk
10 about, has to do with this whole Rule 90(H) business and she and I have
11 discussed it.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, on the first, I have no doubt that if
13 Your Honours make an order, Mr. Dzonlic will comply with it. We can make
14 arrangements for someone from the Sarajevo office to collect them from
15 him. I repeat that our reluctance to take them was that, as I say, these
16 are privileged documents, as far as we can see, but I don't think
17 Mr. Dzonlic will raise an argument and we will provide copies. I don't
18 think we can ask him to provide -- Mr. Dzonlic will, to our office, and we
19 will pass them to the Defence, but I think Your Honours will have to make
20 the order.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: We will think about it and we'll tell you what our
22 decision will be. With regard to 90(H) do you have to say anything?
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it seemed, on reflection, having
24 discussed the matter with Mr. Ackerman, the simplest way is we are going
25 to put in a reply tomorrow to Mr. Ackerman's motion. We would then ask
1 Your Honours to make as quick a ruling as is possible, simply indicating,
2 if Your Honours are minded, to refuse Mr. Ackerman's motion what in your
3 view it is meant by the putting of a case, and then if Mr. Ackerman still
4 disputes it, or anybody does, he can go to the Appeals Chamber.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Please do keep in mind one other important matter,
6 whether the question of the conformity of the Rule with the Statute is a
7 matter to be decided by the Trial Chamber or by someone else.
8 MS. KORNER: Exactly. Your Honour, I don't think that matter
9 is -- we are going to merely deal with his points on putting your case.
10 We will be suggesting that Your Honours couldn't possibly decide that the
11 Rule was in breach of the Statute.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Until now I had kept my mouth closed on this matter
13 but now that you are -- I think it's only fair that I do mention it to you
14 without telling you what our position is.
15 MR. ACKERMAN: Two things, Your Honour. I think there must be
16 some kind of a concise ruling from which I can appeal. If there is no
17 ruling, then there is nothing to appeal. And the other thing is, 73(C)
18 seems to indicate, and of course it's totally up to Your Honours how you
19 want to interpret it, it seems to indicate that the certification that it
20 talks about -- the language is, "With seven days of the filing of the
21 certification." So it appears that there must be a filing of the
22 certification. And probably that certification must refer to a specific,
23 concise ruling or decision so that the Appeals Chamber will have something
24 to deal with when it gets to that point.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Very well. We'll see about that. Tomorrow morning
1 we will resume at 9.00. I must inform you also that Friday, we will be
2 sitting in the afternoon rather than in the morning. The reason is that
3 the courtroom is needed for something else. Anyway, we have consulted --
4 we've been consulted and we have agreed to shift the sitting to the
6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that puts me in severe personal
7 difficulties. Your Honour, I have a flight booked for London in the
8 afternoon, and I anticipate that the witness coming tomorrow may still be
9 going. Your Honour, I didn't know that. No advance warning was given,
10 I'm afraid. All the I can ask is that Your Honours --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, I will take it in hand immediately and I
12 will let you know.
13 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I will let you know. What time is your flight? If
15 I may ask.
16 MS. KORNER: 3.45.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Any way, I will deal with it.
18 Yes, Madam Fauveau, you have problems, too?
19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] No. I have no problems,
20 but I think I forgot something.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I would prefer to
23 be there but I'm staying here over the weekend. The only thing I wanted
24 to ask you was for the documents DT2 and DT3 be admitted into evidence.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: They are being admitted.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour I have the same request. On 46AB
2 through 49AB.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Granted. Tomorrow morning at 9.00. Thank you.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 7th day of March,
6 2002, at 9.00 a.m.