1 Thursday, 21 March 2002
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning, Mr. Brdjanin.
6 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: The usual question: Can you hear me in a language
8 that you can understand?
9 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
11 General Talic, good morning to you. Same question: Can you hear
12 me in a language that you can understand?
13 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
14 Yes, I can.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.
16 Appearances for the Prosecution? No one hiding today?
17 MS. KORNER: No one is hiding. Joanna Korner for the Prosecution,
18 and Denise Gustin, who will be returning.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner, and good morning to you.
20 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.
21 MS. RADOSAVLJEVIC: Good morning, Your Honour. Tania
22 Radosavljevic together with lead counsel John Ackerman.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you and good morning to you.
24 Appearances for General Talic?
25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning,
1 Mr. President, Your Honours, I am Natasha Fauveau-Ivanovic together with
2 Fabien Masson for General Talic.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you. Yes, Ms. Korner? By the way,
4 if there are no major hitches - and there shouldn't be - later on during
5 the day we will be handing down the decision on the 90(H) motion.
6 MS. KORNER: Very grateful, Your Honour. All I was about to say
7 is that we filed yesterday - although it was after hours so it probably
8 won't be filed until this morning actually - through the Registry the
9 reply to the Rule 92 submissions made by Mr. Ackerman and Madam Fauveau.
10 We have combined the two together because Mr. Ackerman's was the principal
11 and Madam Fauveau was the actual positive, if I can put it that way,
12 objections to the particular statements.
13 I can say straight away, Your Honours will -- and the Defence will
14 see, if they have not already received it, in some cases we have made the
15 decision that we will call the witnesses after all. In other cases, we
16 are asking still that they be read.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't seen your response, obviously.
18 MS. KORNER: As I say, I don't think it was filed until after the
19 Registry shut but we just got it in so it will be filed this morning.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So --
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, then as far as the first proposal for
22 the day is that I call Mr. Inayat to deal with the search of the radio
23 station plus the analysis that he's done of the documents. I think Your
24 Honours or the Registry have been given copies of a document that he's
25 prepared. So perhaps you better have it now and then I'll ask for the
1 investigator to be brought in.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Incidentally, Ms. Korner, sorry to change the
3 subject in such a fashion, but yesterday, we were handed a memorandum
4 prepared by Mr. Ackerman in support of oral request for guidance as to
5 Rule 92 bis.
6 MS. KORNER: Yes. That's the one we have responded to.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the one.
8 MS. KORNER: That's the one. I didn't realise it was entitled
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Because I thought you were responding to some other
11 document and I wanted to place because I could -- it's okay.
12 MS. KORNER: It is that document.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So that's clear enough.
14 MS. KORNER: Yes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
16 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honour, if Mr. Inayat could come into
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, usher, please, could you bring Mr. Inayat in?
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you, Mr. Inayat.
21 THE WITNESS: Morning, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: You are quite familiar with the procedure here.
23 Please proceed to make the solemn declaration.
24 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
25 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: MAZHAR INAYAT [Recalled]
2 JUDGE AGIUS: You may sit down.
3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: You know what you are here for, what's the
5 purpose -- you're going to be asked some questions by Ms. Korner and then
6 possibly by the Defence on the retrieval of documents from the Banja Luka
7 Radio Station.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner please proceed. Does he have a copy
10 of --
11 MS. KORNER: Yes, he does, he prepared this.
12 Examined by Ms. Korner:
13 Q. Mr. Inayat, just for the record, could you give your full name to
14 the Court.
15 A. My name is Mazhar Inayat.
16 Q. And as you've already told the Court, you're in charge -- the team
17 leader in charge of Team 1 which has been investigating this particular
18 case; is that correct?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. And yesterday, were you asked originally effectively from the
21 Court to provide some information on the search of the Banja Luka Radio
22 Station in -- on the 27th of February, 1998?
23 A. That is correct. I was asked yesterday afternoon, yes.
24 Q. And originally did you use the internal report that was written by
25 the person who conducted -- or the persons, I should say, who conducted
1 that search but who no longer work for the Tribunal?
2 A. Yes. I've read through his report.
3 Q. And attached to his report is this -- or available to you was
4 the -- what's called a field evidence register form, which is filled out,
5 as you explained to us, I think, when you told us about the searches, at
6 the scene to show what has been recovered.
7 A. I reviewed that particular document also, which is right in front
8 of me now.
9 Q. Yes. And in fact if one looks at it, is it right to say that it
10 does not look as though any documents were seized relating to November
12 A. Apparently on the two pages, that precisely was my understanding,
13 that November 1992 is not mentioned.
14 Q. All right. However, did you as a result of a request made to you
15 by myself yesterday conduct a survey of what exactly had been recovered
16 from the Banja Luka Radio Station?
17 A. I was asked, and I have done that.
18 Q. Yes. And that's the document that has been handed to the Defence
19 and to Their Honours.
20 And if we just look at that, we can see extracting from it --
21 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me, just a moment. I think just for record
22 purposes, Your Honour, that this document needs to have some kind of a
23 designation that would allow it to be identified in the record by someone
24 who is reading it two years from now.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I have taken it for granted that that will happen at
1 some point in time. We don't need to take care of that from the very
2 beginning. You know, we all know what document we are referring to at the
3 present moment.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: We do. But someone reading this transcript that's
5 not here has no idea what we're talking about. I think it should be
6 identified before -- that's up to Your Honours. It's just a suggestion.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
8 Okay, Ms. Korner.
9 MS. KORNER: Thank you so much, Mr. Ackerman.
10 Your Honour, I'm not prepared to argue about this one.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I --
12 MS. KORNER: So can we call that P516, please. It's entitled
13 "Index - Banja Luka Radio Station documents, seized 27th of the 2nd,
15 Q. What you did, I think, was you went through the various boxes of
16 material which were numbered, we can see, with the prefix of "Z," and not
17 "Z." Then you went through the logs and showed the -- what's called the
18 ERN range, which is the numbering of each document. And from that, you
19 were able to see the numbering of entries, the total number of pages that
20 it amounted to, the month, and the year.
21 And if we look at that -- we can look at some of the oddities.
22 But there were apparently some 26 separate documents amounting to 41 pages
23 for January 1993. Then we see three -- two lines further on that there
24 were four documents in this particular box relating to November 1992; then
25 one document for October 1994 in that box. And then further down again --
1 I'm leaving out all the 1992s for the moment -- for October 1994, some 158
2 pages amounting to 39 documents were found. And then again two on, for
3 November 1992, 109 documents amounting to just over -- or just under,
4 really, 1200 pages. And then if we come down -- as I say, I'm leaving out
5 1992 because we have the majority for 1992. In the third box, Z25a, there
6 were 284 documents relating to December 1991, one document for October
7 1991, 357 -- or 105 documents for January of 1991 - so nothing between
8 January and October - and then 58 documents for November 1991. And again
9 an oddity: There was one document for May of 1990 -- 1988. And then over
10 on the next page, there were 11 documents relating to November 1989. And
11 then we're back into 1992 again.
12 And the total number of boxes of documents were four. There were
13 effectively 8.993 documents altogether. And the total number of pages,
14 just under 18.000.
15 Is that correct, Mr. Inayat?
16 A. Total number of pages, I would suggest over 18.000.
17 Q. I make that 17.840.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: On the document that we have, Ms. Korner, we have
20 MS. KORNER: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm looking at a previous one.
21 Sorry. Because there was a second -- that's right. Just over 18.000.
22 And the total number of entries is still the same.
23 Q. Yes. And from the record, it appeared - I think this is right,
24 Mr. Inayat - that the radio station filing system was not of the greatest,
25 putting it --
1 A. Well, that is true, because according to the report of the
2 investigator, the documents were piled up in a corridor against the wall
3 and they had to sift through that material to find out the relevant months
4 that were required. So yes, the filing wasn't what we're used to here in
5 the OTP.
6 Q. I think that's asking for trouble.
7 Thank you very much, Mr. Inayat.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman or Madam Fauveau, any questions?
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, Madam Fauveau will be asking
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Fauveau, please go ahead.
12 Cross-examined by Ms. Fauveau-Ivanovic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Inayat, you personally were not present when
14 documents were seized at Radio Banja Luka.
15 A. I was not present.
16 Q. So you don't know exactly how the seizure took place.
17 A. Physically I was not present, but the report that I have looked at
18 and the debriefings that I attended immediately - in fact, the same
19 evening after the seizure happened - gave me enough information as to what
20 procedures were used by the investigating team.
21 Q. Were all the documents in the radio building seized or was a
22 selection made?
23 A. According to the report of the investigator who was the leader in
24 charge of the seizure, it appears -- there is a clear understanding in the
25 document that they left behind a lot of material which wasn't considered
1 relevant. There was a lot of material for the 1970s and 1980s, which of
2 course wasn't considered relevant, and we didn't have the mandate to seize
3 that material in any case.
4 Q. And on the basis of which criteria were the documents you seized
6 A. We were clearly interested in the year 1992 and of course a few
7 months before 1992 and a few months after 1992, because that was the time
8 frame that we were looking at for our investigation purposes. So we knew
9 very well that we have to focus on basically 1991, October onwards, until
10 about January, February, March of 1993.
11 Q. As regards 1992, did you take all the documents that you found for
12 that year?
13 A. As you can see from the evidence register form, which probably has
14 been circulated also, the investigation team --
15 MS. KORNER: Just pause. Your Honour, we have not. If anybody
16 wants it, we can have the investigation --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: You want to have a look at it, Madam Fauveau and
18 Mr. Ackerman? I personally don't think it's that important.
19 MS. KORNER: It's a rough and ready list.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: But I have to ask. I personally don't think it's of
21 any relevance or importance, but you are entitled to see it, if you want
23 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I would like to see
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm not asking for it to be exhibited.
1 It contains the names of a number of people who are no longer relevant.
2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Before undertaking the seizure of 1992 documents, did you have
4 precise instructions regarding the contents of the documents or were your
5 instructions to take all your documents dated -- all the documents dated
7 A. What I was about to point out about this evidence register form is
8 that we got into this particular premises around about 8.00 in the
9 evening, maybe slightly earlier, and the limited time -- in the limited
10 time that we had, we just couldn't go through each and every document and
11 make a selection there. We had about two or three persons who could speak
12 the language, and the instructions were that anything that is relevant to
13 the 1992 period must be collected. And so, in the limited time, of
14 course, whatever was available for that period, we tried to seize it.
15 Q. So you seized all the documents bearing dates in 1992?
16 A. All documents that we were able to look into. As I said, this
17 was -- radio station premises was spread over two buildings, and we
18 weren't able to enter each and every room in the building. So whatever
19 was available to us in that particular corridor on the second floor of the
20 second building also numbered 129 on that particular street, so from that
21 pile of documents, in the limited time, whatever we could find on 1992, we
22 tried to seize that.
23 Q. And in those 1992 documents that you considered to be relevant,
24 there are about 500 pages concerning the Olympic Games, were there not?
25 A. Of course, if you look at the total seizure, they might not be all
1 relevant. There are a lot of things in the 1992 period which are
2 reportings on music programmes or concerts or different things which are
3 certainly not relevant, but as I said, in those limited two hours that we
4 had, we couldn't make a selection at that point of time. So I'm afraid
5 there must be, as you point out, documents that are not relevant to this
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I hope there are because otherwise we would have too
8 many documents to look at, 18.360.
9 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, all I meant was there might be a
10 limited number of documents that are not relevant, because in the limited
11 time we had, we couldn't select the relevant material right at that spot.
12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Was there any particular reason for seizing documents from
14 October, 1994?
15 A. I believe anything that was seized for the period 1984 and also
16 for 1989, those particular documents, as I can see from the logs, probably
17 somehow got mixed up, because those particular documents don't appear
18 separately on a different -- in a different folder. They were part of a
19 folder of 1992 documents. So it is very much possible that these very few
20 documents from 1989 and 1984, just by some mistake, I guess, found their
21 way into these folders that were from the period 1992.
22 Q. You said at the beginning of your testimony that the report that
23 was done after the seizure contained an error, specifically regarding the
24 month of November. Is that correct?
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. Is it possible that certain documents seized were lost along the
2 route from Banja Luka to The Hague?
3 A. That is -- in my personal opinion, that is out of the question,
4 because the investigator who was responsible for this particular seizure,
5 he has worked under me for almost like two years, and I have known him to
6 be an extremely intelligent, diligent and a methodical person, and there
7 is no chance of anything getting lost from his hands. I doubt that very
8 much. And in any case, as soon as the seizures were completed, this
9 particular investigator put everything in boxes and personally carried
10 them to the holding area where we were staying, so they were never out of
11 sight. So I'm afraid I just don't see that possibility at all.
12 Q. Is he the same person that drafted the report?
13 A. He is the person who drafted the report, but let me point out, he
14 is not the person who wrote the information on the evidence register form.
15 Q. But he was the one who drafted the report, so he was the one who
16 made the error?
17 A. But he was following the information from this particular evidence
18 register form, and I personally believe that he reported -- he wrote his
19 report within days after the seizure had been completed. Being a
20 non-native B/C/S speaker, being a -- he didn't know the B/C/S language,
21 and so he didn't really have the time to go through the seized material to
22 base his report, you know, for that purpose.
23 Q. When the seized documents arrived in The Hague, is the same
24 investigator the only person who was in touch with these documents?
25 A. As soon as the documents were brought to the Tribunal, another
1 investigator was appointed as a log manager, and this person, Mr. Hansen,
2 the investigator who seized the material, had nothing to do with the
3 logging process.
4 Q. But when the documents arrived in The Hague, there were several
5 people working with those same documents, were there not?
6 A. Yes. There was one log manager, and he had a staff of several
7 data entry clerks, data entry clerks who could speak the B/C/S language,
8 and these data entry clerks then, after reviewing the documents, put --
9 inserted very brief summaries of what was contained in the document and
10 also gave dates of the documents, in fact those logs I have used now
11 yesterday to prepare this report that has been exhibited today. So yes,
12 there were quite a few persons involved in creating these log sheets in
13 English language.
14 Q. Do you know how much later after the arrival of the documents in
15 The Hague the ERN number was attached to those documents?
16 A. I can find out the precise dates for you, because it's easy
17 because the ERN ranges are here and I can very easily go to the evidence
18 unit and find out the exact dates. But my recollection is that it was
19 within weeks that the material seized from Banja Luka was passed on to the
20 evidence unit, which was then responsible to stamp the ERN numbers on the
21 documents. So it didn't take really very long. But if you are
22 interested, I can get back to you and give you precise information as far
23 as dates are concerned.
24 Q. And the documents were scanned on CD-ROMs before the ERN number
25 was attached to them.
1 A. I don't believe that that is true. I think the documents were
2 scanned into the system first, into the network, and it was later when we
3 had to review the material with certain experts that we requested the
4 evidence unit to please provide this material on CDs.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, Mr. Inayat, I ought to correct that
6 because in fact they were scanned twice. There was a set scanned. And I
7 believe the Defence had it without ERN numbers, and that's why the
8 question is being asked. So there were two sets of scanning. But that's
9 why the question is being asked. I don't think Mr. Inayat has even dealt
10 with that part. But I can confirm that they were scanned originally
11 without the numbers on them.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.
13 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Inayat, we received those documents without the ERN numbers.
15 Does that mean that the documents without those numbers were scanned
16 within a period of one week after their arrival in The Hague?
17 A. The initial scanning that happened was with the unit numbers that
18 the team was able to provide during the logging, because every folder had
19 its own particular number. And I think again, this is something that I
20 need to really check before I commit myself to giving you a correct answer
21 on this.
22 Q. I would like to just now return to Banja Luka, please. When the
23 seizure took place in the building of Radio Banja Luka, you said that you
24 were not able to enter into all the premises.
25 A. Yes. According to the -- according to the report of the
1 investigator, there were a few rooms - I would say about a couple of
2 rooms - that were locked. So they -- according to that report, they
3 were -- in the limited time they had, they were unable to visit each and
4 every location of those two buildings.
5 Q. Did the investigators try to enter these premises? Did they try
6 to find the key or find the person who could perhaps open a door for
8 A. Probably I'll have to go back and read the report, because it was
9 quite a long report, like, seven pages. I'm not so sure if that effort
10 was made or not.
11 Q. And after the seizure took place at the building of Radio Banja
12 Luka, you did not return to try and find other documents?
13 A. If I remember correctly, two or three months later one of our
14 colleagues from the Sarajevo field office was requested by the team to go
15 back to Banja Luka and to obtain additional material from the SRT, from
16 the Serb Radio and Television. And if my memory is serving me right, I
17 think in April of 1998 the investigator did bring back additional
18 material. But again, I would like to say that I have to check this
19 information. But that investigator who conducted this seizure didn't go
20 back, if that was your question.
21 Q. So it is possible that the Prosecutor's office does have other
22 documents from Radio Banja Luka, others than those contained on the list
23 of the documents seized.
24 A. I really would have to check this before I commit myself to an
25 answer on this.
1 Q. Do you know if this request from April 1998 also concerns the
2 documents from 1992?
3 A. I have to go back and look at those documents to tell you if it
4 is -- if those documents are actually pertaining to that period.
5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no
6 further questions.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
8 I have a few queries.
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, if I have questions, should they be
10 after yours?
11 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no. I didn't realise you had. No,
12 Mr. Ackerman, please go ahead first.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Very briefly, Your Honour.
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman:
15 Q. Did you actually in preparation for your testimony today go
16 through the CDs, the Z15, Z25, and Z27 that have been provided to us and
17 look at those?
18 A. I have access to this material on the network, so I didn't see it
19 on the CD. But I did go through boxes Z15, 25, 25A, and 27. That's how
20 I --
21 Q. When you say "boxes," you're not talking about physical boxes but
22 you're talking about material that's been scanned into the computer.
23 A. Precisely.
24 Q. Okay. And that material is scanned into the Zy-lab document
25 retrieval system, is it not?
1 A. It is.
2 Q. Are you familiar with that system and how it works and do you use
3 it yourself?
4 A. I haven't used it.
5 Q. Do you know how to conduct searches on it?
6 A. I have done that a couple of times. But that was sometime ago,
7 and new versions have now been introduced which I haven't been using.
8 Q. Okay. Do you know - and you perhaps don't - that some of the
9 documents were apparently scanned twice and appear on those CDs more than
11 A. I'm not aware of that. I'm sorry.
12 Q. Okay. Do all documents that come into the evidence unit of the
13 Office of the Prosecutor get scanned into that Zy-lab document retrieval
15 A. I believe so, yes.
16 Q. That's the routine.
17 A. I would imagine, yes.
18 Q. All right. Well, you know that, don't you?
19 A. That's true.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Okay. Thank you. That's all I have.
21 Re-examined by Ms. Korner:
22 Q. Well, do you actually know whether all documents that come into
23 the Office of the Prosecutor are scanned in? If you don't, Mr. Inayat,
24 say so.
25 A. All documents that are seized definitely are scanned into the
2 Q. All right. What about if people send up documents unasked for?
3 A. There is a possibility that sometimes they are not.
4 Q. All right. Yes. Thank you very much.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I think, had some questions.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
7 Questioned by the Court:
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Does the -- under the column "ERN range," does the
9 letter "B" indication anything in particular? Does it refer to a box or
10 something, or what does it refer to?
11 A. Your Honour, this prefix "B" is given to a ERN range for documents
12 that were seized in Banja Luka. So "B" would always mean documents seized
13 in Banja Luka.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: In Banja Luka. Now, can -- I see with regard to the
15 radio station documents you have this sequence: B1, then B2, and then you
16 have B5.
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Why is there this break in a sequence? You don't
19 have 3 and 4, and you have 5.
20 A. Your Honours, since we had these boxes marked Z1 till probably
21 Z40-something, these were taken out one at a time, and sometimes a box
22 would come out from the CSB building, and so that would be scanned first.
23 The other box could have documents for the SDS material. The third could
24 be for the municipal building.
25 So as the boxes were going to the evidence -- as the evidence unit
1 was opening those boxes, they started giving those ERN numbers so as you
2 can see there were four boxes for Banja Luka so they probably got scanned
3 at different stages.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: I see five at least, B5?
5 A. Yes, Z15 -- I would assume that Z15 was one of those boxes which
6 got scanned on very late and was assigned ERN numbers at a very late
7 stage. Z25 which starts with B001 was scanned early on.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: And I notice that between Z25 and Z25A, roughly
9 halfway down the page, just before we start Z25A, last page seems to be
10 B001-5034, and then Z25A, continues with B001-8759. This seems to be the
11 only occasion on this chart, on this sheet, where this is so. Is there a
12 reason for this? What happened to the -- do you have any information with
13 regard to the documents which had pages B001-5035 to 8758?
14 A. Yes. Your Honours, that again is very much possible that the
15 documents found for that particular range came from a different box, and
16 so before Z25A1 was being scanned, that particular -- the documents from
17 that particular box probably got scanned in before. And so those numbers
18 were assigned to the documents from that particular box.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Do you mean to tell me that in Banja Luka, for
20 example, radio station, when the documents were seized, there is the
21 possibility that these may have been mixed with documents recovered from
22 other places?
23 A. No, Your Honours. What I'm saying is that once these documents
24 were brought to Banja Luka, they were contained in many boxes, and so one
25 of the investigators, for making it more convenient that the boxes are
1 transported to The Hague, he took out documents from boxes and put them in
2 larger boxes. That's how the number of boxes were reduced.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: But you're not answering my question. It doesn't
4 explain what happened or what may have happened to pages B001-5035 to
5 B001-8758 because I would imagine that if these were being scanned as
6 Banja Luka first batch, they were being scanned together. I mean, where
7 do we find pages B001-5035 to B001-8758?
8 A. Your Honours, those -- roughly speaking those 300 pages that are
9 missing from these two areas that you have pointed out were also documents
10 seized from Banja Luka and probably they were in a box that was a CSB box,
11 document seized from the CSB, for example, or could have been documents
12 seized from the municipal assembly. So as soon as Z25 was ERNed and ERN
13 numbers assigned, and just before Z25A was to start, the evidence unit
14 must have taken out the documents from that particular box that I'm trying
15 to refer to.
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think can I help.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: If someone can explain also, Ms. Korner, before you
18 start, I also note that B001, unlike all the other batches or ranges, does
19 not start with page 1. It starts with page 3.861.
20 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think this is -- if I can try.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what I want to have clear in my mind
22 Further examination by Ms. Korner:
23 Q. Mr. Inayat, is this the situation, that each of the boxes as they
24 came from the various places that were searched, were marked? In other
25 words, that box whatever it was would be marked Banja Luka Radio Station,
1 CSB building for a different one? As you said, some of the smaller boxes
2 were then placed into larger ones for transport to The Hague?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. They are then given to the evidence unit who book them in?
5 A. That's true.
6 Q. To do this stamping process, what's called the ERN numbers,
7 physically the boxes are given to a team of people who one by one take out
8 the documents and stamp them with these numbers?
9 A. Precisely.
10 Q. But because there is a team of people, one person may be just
11 taking boxes as they are piled in front of them, one from the radio
12 station, one from the CSB, and so that's why there is an interruption in
13 this range of numbers?
14 A. Precisely.
15 MS. KORNER: Does Your Honour grasp that?
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I grasp it, but I find it strange to say the least,
17 because it doesn't make sense. If you are organising the cataloguing and
18 marking and whatever, you get the Banja Luka ones together and someone
19 does -- or groups them together and keeps them together. As it is, it's
20 not like that.
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, no, it was -- as I understand the
22 situation, I'm sorry, there were so many -- the boxes were simply piled up
23 in front of these people who took out the papers one by one and went
24 stamp. It may so happen that one box was CSB and the next box was Radio
25 Banja Luka and that's why you get this different range of numbers.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: And then the sorting is done afterwards?
2 MS. KORNER: And then thereafter they are replaced into the boxes
3 and then they were scanned, although some scanning was done without the
5 Questioned by the Court:
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Mr. Inayat, just for the record and to have a
7 clear picture, try to follow me by referring to the chart that you have
8 prepared. So we do have one batch from May of 1988?
9 A. Yes, Your Honours, I see that in box Z27.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We have -- yes, consisting of 37 pages;
12 A. Yes, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Then we have one batch from 1989. It's on the
14 second page, referring to November, 1989?
15 A. Yes, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And that's 84 pages?
17 A. Yes, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Then from 1991, we only have documents dated
19 January, October and December of that year, and nothing else?
20 A. Yes, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. 344 plus one, plus 357?
22 A. Yes, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: And then in 1992, the only month which is missing is
24 October and it's missing completely? All the other months appear on the
1 A. Yes, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: 1993, we only have January and February?
3 A. Yes, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: And 1994, we only have October, on which you were
5 asked by Madam Fauveau?
6 A. Yes, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: And when you have nil on that chart, what does it
8 mean exactly?
9 A. Your Honours, I think this probably was a mistake committed by the
10 data entry clerk, because when I was reading through the log sheet, I
11 could see the complete range -- for example, let's take this example which
12 is Z15, log number 8. And so this, Your Honours was all November, 1992,
13 log number 7. And log number 8 was all December 1992. But these five
14 documents, the data entry clerk probably forgot to mention the month and
15 the year. I think it was just a mistake. So even though I have said
16 "nil" here, I believe these are still belonging to months that are just
17 preceding these numbers or just the ones that are following these numbers.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: And one final question: You just referred, for
19 example, to this document, Z15, log number 8?
20 A. Yes, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Where you have B056842 to B056842, being one page?
22 A. Yes, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: And then the next line, you see that you start from
25 A. Yes, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So you continue the sequence?
2 A. M'hm.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: But if you jump three, six, seven -- one moment.
4 Let me find it. Yes, if you jump to six lines where you find five pages
5 nil after May 1992?
6 A. Yes, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: You start -- you see, you have a repetition of the
8 same documents, and the line after, B001-4274, B001-4278, represent the
9 five nil pages with the nil entry. And then you have a repetition. You
10 don't have a continuation of the sequence as you had above, previously.
11 You have B001-4274 again. You have those pages repeated here, which seems
12 to confirm what Mr. Ackerman referred to previously, that there may be
13 some pages which are repeated or scanned twice or entered or logged in
15 A. Your Honours, the first point that you have pointed out, 4274,
16 going on to 4278, which is five pages, if you look at the next one, which
17 is B0014274, in fact, my fault it should have been 4279, and then it goes
18 on to 4472, so the last four digits are not the same as compared to the
19 previous one that we are referring to.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: But if you deduct 4274 from 4472, it will leave you
21 198, you add the usual one and it brings you to 199, so the total pages
22 would still remain correct but it's still repetition of five pages.
23 A. Yes, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Anyway, these are -- probably you have learned
25 never to give me any statistics or any -- or any figures because I will --
1 MS. KORNER: I don't think anybody is going to claim it's a
2 perfect, totally-without-fault system. It's the best that --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Do we need Mr. Inayat any longer? Yesterday I got
4 the impression you intended to keep him here while you were referring to
5 some documents.
6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, yes. What I would like to do is -- if
7 Your Honours will allow me, to at the very least just go through the first
8 lot of -- the first binder of the Banja Luka documents, just very quickly,
9 looking at the documents that we have and while Mr. Inayat literally sits
10 in the box, although I don't know if he has a binder so he better have
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I had misunderstood you yesterday, Ms. Korner. I
13 thought we were going to work on binder 4. So I only asked for binder 4.
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, no, binder 4 will be dealt with. It's
15 military documents --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes. That, I gathered. Yes.
17 Yes. We are not going to have them all read, Mr. Ackerman. You
18 will survive the day. Don't worry.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I really have, I think, important
20 things to say to you this morning about this.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: If what Ms. Korner intends to do is read documents
23 to you, I will sit here and bear that, but I will insist that she read
24 every word in every document she's going to read to you, because
25 otherwise, what she's doing is pointing out to you the portions of
1 documents as to which she thinks you should pay particular attention and
2 draw particular conclusions to. That is argument. The rules provide that
3 comes at the end of the case.
4 If what she intends to do is select from among the documents in
5 that binder those which she thinks you should pay particular attention to
6 and portions of those she thinks you should pay particular attention to,
7 that again is argument and belongs at the end of the case according to the
9 If what she intends to do is show you the connections between
10 documents and suggest you can draw certain conclusions by the way
11 documents connect to each other, that's argument and according to the
12 rules comes at the end of the case.
13 If Your Honours permit her to make what amounts to argument at
14 this point, I think you will be denying my client a fair trial and
15 jeopardising the safety of any verdict that you arrive at at the end of
16 this case, any judgement you arrive at at the end of this case. There are
17 rules that provide when she can make argument and when she cannot, and she
18 cannot serially argue this case.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Ms. Korner, what do you have to say about
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, these documents are as much part of the
22 evidence as if I were calling a witness in the way that I have been
23 calling and directing their attention to each of the parts of these
24 documents. I can do this, and Mr. Ackerman, in my submission, would not
25 be able to object, by saying to Mr. Inayat, "Mr. Inayat, I want you to
1 look at this document here. Was it seized in 1997 or 1998 when the
2 searches were conducted? Now, let's just have a look. Summarise the
3 contents." Your Honour, I cannot see why that is argument or comment. It
4 is putting into evidence those documents which are as much of importance
5 in this particular case as if the witness was testifying about the events
6 which have taken place. It is not argument. It is not comment.
7 Your Honour, I can of course, if Mr. Ackerman insists, read out
8 every word. I was proposing to - because we've covered a number of the
9 documents - to summarise the contents of each of the documents so that
10 Your Honours have a chance to have a look at them.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Provided, Ms. Korner, that -- because I see
12 the point raised by Mr. Ackerman, and I suppose you see it too. I mean,
13 there's no question about it. One should definitely not take advantage of
14 the opportunity to make reference to these documents in a way as to
15 present arguments at this stage. That is definitely not -- not -- but
16 that's not how I understood you were going to proceed.
17 So more or less you have taken me a little bit by surprise,
18 Mr. Ackerman, because I was not expecting Ms. Korner to embark upon this
19 kind of exercise that you are objecting to.
20 On the other hand, Ms. Korner is very right in maintaining that a
21 document on its own, in itself, represents a piece of evidence. And being
22 a piece of evidence, especially with a witness here that can answer
23 question on -- answer questions on that piece of evidence in particular,
24 she has every right now to take each and every document about which
25 Mr. Inayat can provide an answer -- and provided that we do not embark on
1 an exercise of reading these documents in part or in whole -- I mean, I
2 sincerely hope that we -- that that is not what Ms. Korner means to do.
3 And I take it that that's not what she means to do. I think we are
4 perfectly regular in the procedure that we are adopting. And later on I
5 would suppose that questions would be asked to witnesses about some or
6 more of these documents. And this is what is important.
7 You will immediately understand, Mr. Ackerman, that in actual
8 fact, once these documents have been admitted in evidence, legally she
9 has -- when I say -- the Prosecution has no obligation or absolute duty to
10 examine -- to have each of these documents referred to one or more of the
11 witnesses and have a statement made by one or more witnesses on those
12 documents. I mean, I would imagine that several of these documents at the
13 end of this trial would not have been referred to any witness at all.
14 They would still be in the records of the case as exhibits, and the Trial
15 Chamber is in duty bound to take them into consideration. So at this
16 point in time, if Ms. Korner stands up and says, "Document P140," provided
17 she does not build up an argument - there you are right - I cannot stop
18 her at this point in time.
19 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
20 MR. ACKERMAN: I mean, I'm not sure you understand what it is she
21 intends to do, Your Honour. But there is another problem. The other
22 problem is this: There is a rule of this case that if she is going to
23 present documents to a witness, we are supposed to be given a list well in
24 advance of those documents. This morning she surprises us all, including
25 you, that what she really intends to deal with is Banja Luka volume 1. I
1 don't have Banja Luka volume 1 here. I can't carry every document in this
2 case in and out of this courtroom every day. This is just totally and
3 completely and utterly unfair, and it's -- it has the high potential of
4 denying my client's right to a fair trial. It's the same thing --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: You have no --
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Please let me finish. It's the same thing as if I
7 were to say to you, "Your Honours, I'm not certain that you paid as close
8 attention to the testimony of the witnesses who have testified so far as I
9 would have hoped you would; and therefore, I would like to go through the
10 transcript for the next few hours pointing out to you the portions of the
11 transcript that I think you ought to pay attention to."
12 That's argument. That's what she intends to do this morning. And
13 just because it's a document rather than testimony doesn't change its
14 character as evidence. And I can't -- and the other thing is if there
15 were a witness on the stand who's familiar with the contents of the
16 document, then I can cross-examine. But he -- Mr. Inayat doesn't know
17 anything about the contents of the document.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: How do you know?
19 MR. ACKERMAN: He wasn't there in 1992. We know he wasn't there
20 in 1992.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: He was there in 1998.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: We're not talking about searches any longer. We're
23 talking about contents. She's trying to prove facts to you by making
24 argument to you today. And the only thing I'll ask -- I understand you're
25 going to permit it; it sounds to me like you are. The only thing I will
1 ask is that you be patient with me objecting to everything she tries to do
2 so I have a record that she is arguing this case to you at this point
3 which is absolutely improper.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. Inayat
6 could only testify about the seizure of the documents and how the
7 Prosecutor's office got hold of them. I don't think this can be
8 contested. But all the other points that are important to do with the
9 documents, Mr. Inayat cannot shed any light on this point, and we cannot
10 cross-examine him on this. So I really do not see the point of this
12 JUDGE AGIUS: But you are pre-empting -- both you and Mr. Ackerman,
13 you are pre-empting what the witness can or cannot state and you are also
14 pre-empting what Ms. Korner is going to do or how she's going to handle
15 this whole bundle and the next bundles. With regard to not having volume
16 1 available, I will give you time to have it available. I mean, there's
17 no question about it. I mean, that's -- this is something that can be
18 solved. But I don't think that was the problem.
19 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I made it very clear yesterday - I
20 appreciate Your Honours misunderstood - but that I wanted to go through
21 the documents that hadn't been put into evidence through the witnesses yet
22 or hadn't been referred to.
23 Your Honour, I have yet to hear from Mr. Ackerman or Madam Fauveau
24 what the unfairness to the defendants are. I am not going to comment on
25 these documents. I am merely going to go through them summarising their
1 contents -- and I do agree with Mr. Ackerman and Madam Fauveau that it's
2 unlikely Mr. Inayat can say anything about them other than obviously he
3 was present at the time they were seized and in the course of the
4 investigation, he's had a look at a lot of documents. But that doesn't --
5 I accept that doesn't take the case further. But I've yet to see what the
6 unfairness is to the defendant. If Mr. Ackerman can point out the
7 unfairness, then I'll willing listen to Your Honours have a look at the
8 documents which were entered into evidence as admissible documents so that
9 Your Honours know what those documents are. And that is -- as I say, that
10 is part of the Prosecution case. And what is the difference, I ask
11 rhetorically, if I were to call a witness to give evidence about matters
12 which in this case are in written form contained in these documents.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I have no objection to Your Honours
15 looking at all the documents. That's not what's trying to be done here.
16 We're perfectly capable of looking at the documents.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't need your permission. We don't need your
18 permission to look at the all the documents.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: Absolutely. So now she's saying what she wants to
20 do is to have you look at the documents. Well, I trust you that you're
21 going to do that, and I don't think it requires us to sit here and have
22 her to tell you to look at a document. I think you will do that. I trust
23 you to do that. To the extent -- to any extent that she wants to
24 highlight the content of any document for your consideration, that is
25 argument, pure and simple, and I object to it.
1 It would take me a significant amount of time to go round up --
2 she hasn't told me what documents. If it's limited to volume 1, I can
3 have volume 1 back here so I can follow her along maybe in 30 to 45
4 minutes. But I will insist on being able to have the documents, because
5 it's unfair for her to be talking about documents that I can't even look
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I've got nothing else to say in relation
9 to what Mr. Ackerman complains about. The reason I would suggest he
10 doesn't want Your Honours to have a look at it is because he knows that
11 they're compelling evidence against his client. And this business of the
12 trust, Your Honour, is just a method of avoiding this.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: It's not --
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, as to why he hasn't got the volume here
15 within this building, I cannot assist. It's required for him to go and
16 get it. Or alternatively, we can supply him with another copy of
17 volume 1. We do have spare copies.
18 And indeed, if Madam Fauveau hasn't got hers either, we'll do the
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
21 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] If the Prosecutor can
22 provide me a copy of the documents, I will agree.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I still haven't understood how Mr. Ackerman
24 can argue that if Ms. Korner stands up and takes documents -- I'll take
25 this one -- a document P134 and says, "Your Honours, this is a document
1 forming part of the bundle seized from Banja Luka Radio Station, and it
2 deals with a report on such and such a thing. The Prosecution is only --
3 attaches importance only to this," how does that become argument?
4 MR. ACKERMAN: It's clearly argument. "Please look at paragraph 6
5 of this document, Your Honour. We contend that this is the important
6 one." That's argument.
7 The other thing -- we might as well excuse Mr. Inayat because he
8 obviously has no role in this. All he can do is say, "Yes, I've seen that
9 document." We have already accepted the sources.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We have accepted the sources. But if Ms. Korner
11 needs Mr. Inayat, I'm not going to send him out. It depends as we go
12 along, the utility of his presence, whether it emerges really a reality or
13 whether it's just ...
14 MR. ACKERMAN: I just don't think it's fair for there to be--
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I mean, it's up to Ms. Korner.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think it's fair for us to be creating an
17 illusion that this is testimony from a witness. It's not. It's a speech
18 from Ms. Korner with regard the documents. And if you want to permit it,
19 I can't stop it. I'll sit here and listen to it. But it's extremely
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I suppose it puts your client in an
22 advantageous position in knowing beforehand, well beforehand, what
23 importance, if at all, the Prosecution is attaching to the various
24 exhibits that have already been admitted so that in due course you can
25 direct your attention where these documents would require you to direct
1 your attention. I mean, it's -- rather than being unfair, it's a mode of
2 discovery and disclosure that enables you to prepare better for your
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, it's if an advantage to my client, Your
5 Honour, it's one that I'm objecting to. And I will continue to object.
6 And I have that right to make a record --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, definitely.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: -- regardless.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: That's not being contested.
10 MR. ACKERMAN: That's my position. And I think I've said all I
11 can possibly say about it.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. How quickly, Ms. Korner -- in any case, we
13 will be having a break in 20 minutes' time.
14 MS. KORNER: It may help if Your Honours were to break now - I
15 know it's a litter earlier - and we'll arrange for both Madam Fauveau and
16 Mr. Ackerman to get a copy.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: You have a copy or -- anyway --
18 MS. KORNER: We've got some spare copies floating around -- or
19 rather, members of the team have them, and we can recover them from them.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So we'll break for half an hour, resuming at
21 twenty to 11.00.
22 Yes. The witness can withdraw.
23 Thirty minutes.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.11 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 10.47 a.m.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I've only brought in -- we had rather
3 more difficulty than I gaily said. We didn't have that many spare volumes
4 but we managed to rustle up a spare copy of volume 1 for each of Defence
5 counsel and I rather assumed that that is the material we would deal with
6 today, particularly as Your Honours are going to give judgement on the
7 Rule 90(H).
8 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
9 MS. KORNER: I see you're going to give written -- I'm sorry. I
10 thought Your Honours were going to give a verbal --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: It's going to be a written decision. I think the
14 subject itself deserves an in-depth, so you will have it later on. In
15 actual fact, I'm being informed that although it's ready, for practical
16 reasons it will be issued tomorrow and not today. Okay. Thank you.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, then can I ask Your Honours to take
18 volume 1, and I'll just deal with what the documents are? Your Honours,
19 the first set of documents, between -- marked P1 through to P -- well, in
20 fact, the first seven or so because the numbers change slightly, Your
21 Honour, all in one form or another statistical data relating to this --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, please.
23 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Because binder 1, I initially had --
25 MS. KORNER: P54, I should have said.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly, four binders but the first one of
2 these basically started with Exhibit P54.
3 MS. KORNER: That's right.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Is this the one we are referring to?
5 MS. KORNER: It is, Your Honour. I'm sorry, it's my error. Of
6 course we started because the first set of documents related -- were the
7 ones Dr. Donia dealt with.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. Those I kept separately.
9 MS. KORNER: Exactly. They are separate.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: For my way of reasoning, it's binder 1 but --
11 MS. KORNER: Binder 1.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Let's go ahead.
13 MS. KORNER: I see what Your Honour means.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go ahead, because otherwise we will start
15 accusing each other --
16 MS. KORNER: The documents start with P54. Your Honour, the first
17 six or so are all statistical data. The first one is statistics that
18 apparently were dealt with by Kotor Varos in 1991. The second document
19 comes from the CSB, you can see that, Security Services Centre, and is
20 dated 199' -- May of 1993, and deals with just a few of the
22 Your Honour, I should tell Your Honour - and if there is an
23 objection to this - that Knezevo in fact was originally known as Skender
24 Vakuf, and that's how it appears throughout this case. The name was
25 changed but it was known as Skender Vakuf, which is the first municipality
2 Your Honour, the third document again --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: May I stop you a little bit, Ms. Korner? Just to
4 make clear something to you as well, and principally to the Defence, that
5 this exercise, as you go along, definitely is -- does not mean and is not
6 being taken by the Trial Chamber to mean that any objection that has
7 already been raised as to authenticity of any of these documents is being
8 in any way prejudiced. That remains. The question of authenticity and so
9 on remains to be dealt with when we come to that stage.
10 MS. KORNER: I absolutely agree, Your Honours, yes. In fact, some
11 of the documents that were objected to have in fact already been referred
12 to by witnesses in the evidence.
13 Your Honour, the third document again comes from the CSB, dated
14 May of 1993, and is their figures of who has moved out and into the area
15 covered within the CSB. Again, Your Honour, if I -- if I ask Your Honours
16 to look at the second page of that, the fifth municipality referred to,
17 which is called Kozarska Dubica here was originally known as Bosanska
18 Dubica. It deals with municipalities that were not covered by this
19 indictment but came within the area of the [Realtime transcript read in
20 error "Bosanska"] Banja Luka CSB.
21 Your Honours, the -- I'm sorry. Can I -- I just looked at the
22 note. I said the Banja Luka CSB, not the Bosanska CSB. It's my
23 pronunciation maybe.
24 And, Your Honours, the fourth document is another short
25 description of two municipalities, again from the CSB and the population.
1 Then the fifth, Your Honour, is figures --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We have -- Ms. Korner, we have a slight
3 problem here. Could we ask you to be kind enough when you say "the next
4 document" to just refer us to the number that you have in your binder to
5 make sure that it tallies with ours.
6 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Certainly. Your Honours,
7 I'll give the P numbers.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: So at the moment we are at P57.
9 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Yes.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Ms. Korner. Microphone,
11 please, Ms. Korner. Microphone, please.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Your microphone.
13 MS. KORNER: Thank you. You'll be happy to hear, Your Honours,
14 that my volume has no P numbers because I acquired the last one. But I'm
15 using the schedule, and it is indeed, as Your Honours, say, P58.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: 57 or 58?
17 MS. KORNER: 57.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: 57.
19 MS. KORNER: Then Your Honours, the next document which should be
20 P58, again is statistics compiled for the CSB, this time in 1995.
21 Can I just direct Your Honours' attention in that to number 17,
22 which is called "Srbobran". It was the renaming there of a municipality
23 called Donji Vakuf, which does figure in the indictment.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: This is also the name of the organisation that
25 Mr. Donia created and referred to as Donja Vakuf.
1 MS. KORNER: That's right.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: This is where he got it from.
3 MS. KORNER: I think he explained that it was his small pun.
4 Your Honour, the next document in there, P59, it comes from the
5 CSB building again, and it's a breakdown of the Croat populations in the
6 various municipalities.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
8 For example, Mr. Ackerman, this is -- you know, to prove to you
9 the importance of this exercise in a way, if you look at this document,
10 there's nothing to show you that it comes from where Ms. Korner is saying
11 it comes. And now she's explaining that this --
12 According to you comes from the security service, the same source
13 as the previous document now?
14 MS. KORNER: Yes.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: State security department, or what is it exactly?
16 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's the CSB, which is the state
17 security section, I think, or state security department.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Of Republika Srpska.
19 MS. KORNER: Yes. And I'm taking the information from
20 Mr. Inayat's schedule.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
22 MS. KORNER: I see both Defence counsel are on their feet.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I give precedence to Madam Fauveau. Yes.
24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think perhaps
25 Mr. Ackerman wanted to say the same thing, and that is that we know
1 exactly where these documents come from, as Ms. Korner provided us with a
2 list, with a source of these documents, and Mr. Inayat has already
3 testified about this. So it is not contested as far as that is
4 concerned. However, when we review these documents here before you, I
5 take advantage of this opportunity to say that we contest the probative
6 value of all these documents except the first one because they come from
7 1993 or 1995. So we don't know how many people left Banja Luka or the
8 region of Bosanska Krajina in 1992.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: And I am sure that at the end of the day, there is
10 going to be a number of documents to which the Tribunal -- the Trial
11 Chamber will attach absolutely no probative value or even authenticity.
12 But -- anyway, but that comes later. Not at this -- not at this stage.
13 We are not contesting. This is why I made it clear that what Ms. Korner
14 is doing now, this particular exercise, is always and infallibly without
15 prejudice to the other issues regarding -- which ultimately would have a
16 bearing on the probative value of these documents.
17 Mr. Ackerman, did you have to say -- did you want to say something
18 different, or ...?
19 MR. ACKERMAN: I think maybe only slightly different, Your Honour,
20 and that is that it was decreed very early in the case that Ms. Korner
21 provide not just to Defence counsel but to the Trial Chamber a list of all
22 the documents showing their source.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we --
24 MR. ACKERMAN: So this exercise is not helping us with regard to
25 their source. We've known that for some time.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, let's not argue about that.
2 Ms. Korner, please go ahead.
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the next document which is P60, is -- in
4 fact comes from the Croatian statistical institute. And it is a copy
5 of -- or it's a breakdown of the actual census results. You'll see
6 there's a -- what happened is we've copied just one -- I'm sorry, we've
7 translated just the heading of each column so that you have total -- I
8 mean, I'm sure Your Honours know by now, "Hrvatski" is Croats, Muslims,
9 Serb, Yugoslavs, and others.
10 Your Honour, these are the actual figures from the official
11 census, and as Your Honours can see, for effectively the whole of Bosnia
12 and Herzegovina and not just the ARK.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, the first column, in other words the
15 column before, Hrvatski, which are the Croatians.
16 MS. KORNER: Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: What does it stand for?
18 MS. KORNER: That's the total of everybody who lived -- for
19 example if you take Sarajevo, there were 359.452 persons living in
20 Sarajevo in 1971.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. The total is in front, in other words.
22 MS. KORNER: The total is the first column. Then it's broken down
23 into the number of people that declared themselves Croat, which in 1971 in
24 Sarajevo was 41.000 odd, forming 11.5 per cent of the total. Muslims then
25 44, Serbs 36 per cent, people who called themselves Yugoslavs 3.8, and 3.7
1 is others.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the next document, which is P61, is a
4 list of representatives in the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of
5 Krajina broken down by municipality, and those who were then deputies, and
6 Your Honours can go through the names. A number of the names will be
7 already familiar to Your Honours.
8 Your Honour, the next document is an article from Glas dated
9 January, 1991. Now, Your Honours, I looked at my copy and it's very bad.
10 I don't know how good Your Honours' is.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Not much better than yours. I haven't seen yours
12 but if yours is worse than mine, it's really bad.
13 MS. KORNER: If it looks -- what's happened, I think, is it was
14 copied with somebody's highlighting possibly, and that's why it's come out
15 so badly. Your Honour, I had made a note of it yesterday, and we will try
16 and see whether there is a clean translation.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: If it's highlighted, there is a method but --
18 MS. KORNER: I think it's not only highlighted but one can see
19 underlined as well by someone.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: And in fact, Ms. Korner, this is a practice that I
21 would rather not prefer in any way. I mean --
22 MS. KORNER: I know.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: You come from a jurisdiction where we believe very
24 much in this, that no document should be submitted to the Court with any
25 highlighting or with any --
1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'll ask Ms. Gustin to make a note of --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: If you can substitute it, it will be better.
3 MS. KORNER: Yes.
4 Your Honour, this is early on in 1991 and its only relevance is
5 the discussions and the fact that Mr. Brdjanin figures in that as
6 president of the Executive Committee of the Celinac Assembly.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: At this point I'll lodge an objection, Your Honour,
8 that it is argument for Ms. Korner tell you what its only relevance is.
9 That's her view of the document and the conclusion she would like to you
10 draw, that its only relevance is that it contains Mr. Brdjanin's name. I
11 object. It's argument.
12 MS. KORNER: I take the point.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: The objection is not being sustained.
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can we move to the next document, which
15 is --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: 63?
17 MS. KORNER: -- P63, an article from Kozarski Vjesnik which deals
18 with the SDS's position on the Federation of Yugoslavia and refers to
20 Your Honour, the next document is P64, which is a letter dated the
21 25th of January, 1991, to the municipal SDS board in Banja Luka, which
22 bears an official stamp and apparently two signatures, voting [Realtime
23 transcript originally read in error "noting"] for Mr. Zupljanin to become
24 head of the Security Services Centre.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I object to what Ms. Korner just
1 said. Her words were -- well, I'm sorry, the transcript says "noting."
2 Maybe she said "noting." I thought I heard her say "voting."
3 JUDGE AGIUS: No, no, no, no.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: If what she says was "voting," that would be
5 argument or incorrect, but maybe if what she said was "noting," that's
7 MS. KORNER: I didn't. I did say "voting." So that is --
8 Mr. Ackerman is right. If he objects to the word "voting" to explain
9 "give their unreserved support for the post of head of security
10 services," okay.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you objecting or not objecting, Mr. Ackerman?
12 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm objecting to the use of the word "voting."
13 There is nothing in this document that has anything to do with voting for
15 JUDGE AGIUS: It says --
16 MR. ACKERMAN: That's argument.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: It says, "We believe we are entitled to give our
18 vote to Mr. Zupljanin." That's how it ends.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: It does say that.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Ms. Korner. I was going to call you
21 Mrs. Ackerman.
22 MS. KORNER: Please!
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Which wouldn't be the first time.
24 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honour, the next document is P4 because --
25 the reason it jumped is we gave the same numbers because Dr. Donia -- it
1 was one of the documents referred to by Dr. Donia, so I don't need to --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: So P65 is P4 as well?
3 MS. KORNER: Yes, it was. We skipped the number, because
4 otherwise -- what happened is we had already allocated P4 to this
5 document. When the number was done, it was originally numbered P65, and
6 then we realised it had already got a number, so there is no P65.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: I have one.
8 MS. KORNER: It is in the bundle at page -- after divider 12. It
9 is also in Dr. Donia's bundle. It has a number in Dr. Donia's bundle as
10 P4, so we've kept the same number here. That will happen again because a
11 number of documents are relevant to different areas of the case and so
12 they are just repeated so that the binders can be followed through.
13 Your Honour, we don't need to look at that one because Dr. Donia
14 dealt with it.
15 The following, P66, is the election -- sorry, yes, it is the
16 election of Mr. Vojo Kupresanin as the president of the Assembly of
17 Bosnian Krajina Municipalities.
18 And the next two documents, which are P67 and P68, are the
19 election of the vice-presidents, first being Mr. Brdjanin and the second
20 being Mr. Knezevic.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because P66, according to my bundle, my
22 binder, is, as you said, the election of Mr. Vojo Kupresanin.
23 MS. KORNER: P67 --
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Then I have no P67. That could have been taken out
25 and put in another bundle but --
1 MS. KORNER: The marking 1.52.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't have P67. And then the next document that I
3 have is only in B/C/S, and it doesn't have a number. It is a document
4 dated 26th April, 1991, and supposedly signed by President Kupresanin.
5 MS. KORNER: Well, I'm sorry about that.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: It deals with the Knezevic, that -- Dr. Dragan
8 MS. KORNER: So Your Honour is missing the document that
9 originally bore the number 1.52.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
11 MS. KORNER: And only have the B/C/S version of the next one.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Of 1.107.
13 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour, we are making notes as we go
14 along. Do any of Your Honour's colleagues -- are you missing --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge Janu is missing --
16 JUDGE JANU: P55, P60 and P64 are missing in mine.
17 MS. KORNER: I'm very sorry, Your Honours. In the massive amount
18 of copying, I think things went wrong occasionally so I think we made a
19 note of those and we will make sure that that comes.
20 Do Your Honours have the next document, which is --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: P69.
22 MS. KORNER: -- P69, the agreement on the formation of the
23 Community of Bosnian Krajina Municipalities?
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we have that.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the --
1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] May I?
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau?
3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Sir, just for the record,
4 P57, 58 and 59 are contested by the Defence, for the reasons that we have
5 given before. They are not signed documents.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Fauveau.
7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. It seems
8 there is a mistake in the transcript. It is 67, 68 and 69 that are being
10 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's corrected now. But actually the interpreter
11 had said P57, 58 and 59. So -- but it's all right now. Yes, we are at
12 P70, Ms. Korner.
13 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour. In P70, there is a reference to
14 the phrase that Mr. --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Ms. Korner.
16 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. In article 9 we can see the reference to
17 the phrases that "in time of war," or "under imminent threat of war," that
18 it was referred to.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Which article 9?
20 MS. KORNER: Article 9 of the statute -- of the agreement.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: This is P69, then?
22 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, yes, P69, I'm sorry, still.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
24 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honour, P --
25 JUDGE AGIUS: I saw you standing up, Mr. Ackerman. Did you want
1 to raise anything or --
2 MR. ACKERMAN: No. I was trying the find Article 9 of the --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I was looking at P70 too.
4 Okay. That's no problem, Ms. Korner.
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the next document again is one that
6 Dr. Donia looked at. It's not P70. It's P11 because it was one that he
7 dealt with. So the number 70 is being skipped.
8 Or does it say -- does Your Honours' -- does it say P70 at the
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
11 MS. KORNER: Oh, I see. All right. Well, again it's both P70 and
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I can assure you I also have it in the Donia binder.
14 MS. KORNER: I think it was purely for the purpose of the Registry
15 keeping it. And that's already been looked at and is the agenda for the
16 14th of May assembly.
17 Your Honours, P71 is a further agenda of -- for the meeting to
18 take place on the 30th of May, the third session.
19 And the next document, which is P72 is the conclusions from that
20 particular session.
21 P73, a decision that all social organisations, firms,
22 institutions, and privately owned stores display signs written in the
23 Cyrillic and Latin scripts, with a fine for those who do not comply with
24 the decision within the deadline, signed by the chairman of the executive
25 council, Andjelko Grahovac.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Since we've gone some way through this, I would
3 just like to inquire if Your Honours are finding this to be a productive
4 use of the time of many busy and high-paid people. If you are, of course
5 you may go on. But I continue to object to it.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman. When we've had enough,
7 we'll let Ms. Korner know. And probably that will be towards noon.
8 Madam Fauveau, yes.
9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Since Ms. Korner is
10 entering into the contents of this document, this decision about the use
11 of the Cyrillic and the Latin script was taken in conformity with the
12 constitutional provision, which is also noted in the document.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you for that comment, Madam Fauveau.
14 Ms. Korner, please go ahead.
15 MS. KORNER: Thank you. Your Honour, document number P74 is dated
16 the 8th of July. It's again a decision of the executive council of the
17 municipalities of the Bosanska Krajina, and it's a request to the
18 municipality to stop -- to adopt a decision to stop payment of taxes to
19 the republic, retain the funds, and use them for their requirements. And
20 the document states that it was sent to the Bosanska Krajina Municipal
21 Assembly president.
22 Your Honour, the next document is document P75, an article from
23 Glas, dated the 12th of July, and headed "Radoslav Brdjanin, deputy. Why
24 the SDS deputies did not attend the assembly session." In the original --
25 The next document, P76. A letter dated the 25th of July, 1991,
1 addressed to Ms. Plavsic, signed by Stojan Zupljanin, and headed "The
2 security" -- it comes from the security services centre, the CSB, in Banja
3 Luka. And it is a complaint about the colour of the paper that he
4 received a summary on.
5 Your Honour, the next document is P77. Again, it is a decision of
6 the Association of Municipalities. It is apparently stamped and signed by
7 Dr. Vukic and Radoslav Brdjanin and relates to the appointment of Nedeljko
8 Kesic as chief of the state security service sector.
9 Your Honour, the next document is probably both P14 and P78. But
10 again, it's an announcement from the Assembly of the Bosanska Krajina
11 Municipalities, and it relates to the transmitter on Kozara Mountain that
12 Your Honours have heard so much evidence of in the last few days. And
13 it's stamped but not signed - Madam Fauveau - with a stamp of Vojo
14 Kupresanin -- or with a stamp.
15 The next document, P12 or P79, is the community of -- another
16 agenda. And the agenda states that it's to deal with the adoption of a
17 decision to declare the Autonomous Region of Krajina, the state of the
18 deputies financing the work of the Krajina, and the radio and television
19 subscription. The document bears no stamp. It's simply the typed version
20 of Mr. Kupresanin's name in Cyrillic.
21 The next document, P80, is the statute, which I believe we have
22 already looked at.
23 The document after that, P81, is the decision on the proclamation
24 of the Autonomous Region of Krajina as an inseparable part of the Federal
25 State of Federative Yugoslavia. And again, there is on this occasion a
1 stamp and a signature apparently suggesting it's Vojo Kupresanin.
2 P82, Your Honours, is a report -- or it's a letter enclosing a
3 report on the activity of the -- of what's called armed groups on the
4 territory of the security services centre. If Your Honours -- because
5 there is a link in this sense only that it appears again. Your Honours
6 need to go to P95, which should be behind divider 11.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: That's according to your numbering.
8 MS. KORNER: Oh, we're on P --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: P95 is in our case behind divider 42.
10 MS. KORNER: All right. Oh, yes, because -- but it should -- it's
11 an extract from the minutes from the tenth session of the Assembly of the
12 Autonomous Region. Is that correct?
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, correct.
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, item 2 there includes a report of the
15 Banja Luka Security Services Centre on the criminal and illegal activities
16 of Veljko Milankovic and other members of a paramilitary formation from
17 Prnjavor, was submitted by Stojan Zupljanin. So although the report is
18 dated the 20th of September -- and I think all we can do is suggest that
19 this seems to be the report, because if one reads through the report, that
20 is what it is about. And Milankovic was the gentleman referred to by the
21 last witness.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I now must enter another objection,
24 because Ms. Korner is making a connection between two documents that is
25 not on its face a proper connection. She's arguing based upon the content
1 that these two documents are connected. That's argument. It's improper
2 at this stage. I therefore object.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner.
4 MS. KORNER: I've got nothing to say, Your Honour.
5 The point of this exercise is not to comment or whatever but so
6 that Your Honours can understand --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: We don't want an argument.
8 It's just a suggestion. She actually used the word "suggestion,"
9 so the objection is not sustained.
10 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honour, if we go back, please, to document
11 P83, Your Honour, this is a document from the 2nd of October, 1991, from
12 the assistant to the Minister of the Interior, addressed to the CSB, the
13 SJB, and the SUP seeking a breakdown of numbering and percentages of the
14 ethnic structure of reserve members of the police forces.
15 Your Honour, the next document, P84 --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, here we have a problem, Ms. Korner, because I
17 at least have only the B/C/S text. I don't have the English translation.
18 MS. KORNER: That's the same for everybody. Your Honour, we're
19 making a note --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: You have it?
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we made a note, and we're going to
24 supply all the missing documents.
25 Your Honour, it is in fact a document headed "The Assembly of the
1 Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina -- Bosnian Krajina, Banja Luka."
2 And it's signed and sealed by Mr. Kupresanin, and is apparently a request
3 or demand that a member called Mr. Bogojevic [phoen] be replaced by
4 Professor Koljevic, Dr. Koljevic.
5 Your Honour, the next document, P85, is the minutes of the SDS --
6 the minutes of a party council held on the 15th of October, 1991. And it
7 says it's the agenda. And it's also apparently part of the things that
8 were said during that time.
9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence contests this
12 document because it hasn't been signed, it doesn't have a seal. And it
13 was seized in Sarajevo, which we do not believe that is a secure source.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. -- Madam Fauveau.
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the next document, which appears is the
16 P86. It's the Official Gazette of the municipality of Banja Luka, the
17 date being the 16th of October, 1991.
18 The next document, which is P87, is an article from a magazine or
19 a publication called Vrana, dated the 21st of October, 1991. Your Honour,
20 if you go to the second page, it's an article about the meeting that was
21 held on the 15th of October and the assembly meeting. Your Honour, in the
22 middle of page 2, there is part of the text of Mr. Karadzic, which in
23 opening to Your Honours I played the clip of Mr. Karadzic's speech.
24 The third paragraph was that part, second page.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Next?
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I must again lodge an objection that
2 Ms. Korner is drawing your attention to a particular portion of a document
3 and suggesting to you that that is the import of the document and its
4 relevance, and I think that's argument, and I object that it's argument
5 and it's improper to be making argument at this stage.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: The objection is not being sustained, Mr. Ackerman,
7 because to the Chamber it is obvious that this is not an argument. It's
8 an explanation that this part, which is in quotes, in inverted commas, is
9 actually the part which was shown in the video clip that Ms. Korner
10 referred to. There is absolutely no comment about the content or anything
11 to indicate to the Tribunal that the rest of the document is not important
12 or is not being referred to by the Prosecution, so your objection is not
13 being sustained.
14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, if it assists Mr. Ackerman, he's made
15 his objection to the whole process very clear, and for the purposes of
16 appeal, I have no doubt the appeal will note that he objects to all of
18 Your Honour, the next document is P88, which is a request to the
19 security services centre to hold a rally. It was dated the -- can't read
20 the date apparently. No. It's been gone through. But apparently it was
21 received, at the bottom, on the 22nd of October, and states that the
22 people listed will be speaking at this rally.
23 Your Honour, P22 or 89, Your Honour, was dealt with by, again,
24 Dr. Donia when he gave his evidence, and is a telex.
25 Then the next document, P90, is an official statement of the
1 Muslim -- as it's described, the Muslim Bosniak organisation in Kljuc, and
2 it relates to what is said about an instructions signed by Mr. Brdjanin,
3 vice-president of the autonomous region. Your Honour, that document will
4 appear again, in fact, in the Kljuc bundle when we get to it.
5 The next document, P23 or P91, is an agenda for the Assembly of
6 the Autonomous Region on the 6th of November, 1991.
7 The following document, which is P92, is a decision of the
8 Assembly of the Serbian People on the 21st of November, 1991. Your
9 Honour, it is -- it deals with -- I was going to say regionalisation, but
10 it talks about the Serb Autonomous Regions of Krajina, Slavonia, Baranja
11 and Western Srem. It's signed -- not sure it is signed but it bears a
12 seal and the name Krajisnik.
13 Your Honour, then the next document, which is P93 -- for some
14 reason I've crossed that out and written 448, but I don't recall why.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?
16 MR. ACKERMAN: The record indicates that Ms. Korner said that this
17 document, P91, bears a seal.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: 92, not 91.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm looking and I can't find it.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: 92, not 91. The last document we dealt with was
21 92. And ours at least does bear a seal, obviously on the B/C/S.
22 MR. ACKERMAN: It's my mistake, Your Honour. I was looking at the
23 wrong document.
24 MS. KORNER: Not a signature. I agree.
25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] There is no signature and
1 it was obtained from the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: But you will notice, Ms. Korner, that although on
3 the face of the last page of the B/C/S text, there is a stamp, and to me
4 no apparent signature, in the English text, beneath the name Momcilo
5 Krajisnik, there is "signed".
6 MS. KORNER: I agree, Your Honour, it may be that it's lost on the
7 copying but at the moment, on the face of it, it doesn't appear to have
8 any kind of a signatures, if you look at the copy of the B/C/S version.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mine doesn't. There is a beginning of a sign or
10 something, but Madam Fauveau, yes, please.
11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] At the moment, we object to
12 this document, particularly because it comes from the Ministry of Interior
13 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may go ahead, Ms. Korner. Anyway,
15 you will undoubtedly check that, and if the original document that you
16 have bears a signature, you will perhaps let us -- bring it forward so
17 that we can see it.
18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the next document, which is P93 --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Is self-explanatory.
20 MS. KORNER: Is the article in Oslobodenje of the 12th, of the
21 11th, 1991, that I referred to yesterday.
22 In the second edition, sorry -- the next document is P94, which is
23 further Official Gazette of the municipality of Banja Luka dated the 28th
24 of November, 1991, and deals with -- the first part deals with the
25 founding of Banja Luka Television Public Enterprises. It then goes on to
1 deal with other matters further on.
2 Your Honour, then the next document, P95, is the minutes of the
3 tenth session of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, and that was the 14th
4 of December, 1991.
5 And the following document, P96, is the conclusions.
6 The next document, Your Honour, is the still-to-be-resolved
8 JUDGE AGIUS: The Variant A and Variant B.
9 MS. KORNER: The Variant A/B and version number 100.
10 Your Honour, then the next document is a report on paramilitary
11 units, their activity and other current security-related events, dated the
12 29th of December of 1991.
13 If one looks just for a moment at the original, because it's not
14 so clear what's happening, the top is -- as one can see, it's headed
15 "Kesic" and then somebody has written a note complaining, and then
16 underneath a further note.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: P98, yes.
18 MS. KORNER: I hope I've got the right number.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes.
20 MS. KORNER: Otherwise it's not terribly clear what the English
21 typing means, but if you look at the original, one can see what's
23 Your Honour, the next document, P99 is the Statute of the United
24 Serbian Democratic Parties in Serbia, Your Honour, the SDS.
25 Your Honour, then P100 --
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Excuse me just a moment. This probably has to do
2 with my own confusion, Your Honour, but Ms. Korner represented this to be
3 a statute of the SDS, and the text indicates that it's an organisation
4 called the SSDS. I'm not sure this is the same organisation as the SDS we
5 have been referring to.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Korner, I confirm, she did say "of the
8 MS. KORNER: Yes, the Serbian Democratic Parties. I think if one
9 looks at --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Actually, the acronym is in the second page,
11 penultimate paragraph of Article 1, it says letters "SSDS" in the middle
12 part, so it is SSDS and not SDS.
13 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think that means "united" and stands for the
14 word, however, but Your Honour, I take the correction.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Go ahead. Exhibit -- sorry, Mr. Ackerman, I
16 didn't recognise you.
17 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm told by my colleague who understands the
18 language that this is not an SDS document, that it's a different
19 organisation. So at some point, this will have to be cleared up, I take
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, I'm sure you've taken note of that.
22 MS. KORNER: This is why it's proving to be an useful exercise.
23 Your Honour, the next document which is P100, is again an agenda
24 of the ARK Assembly dated the 6th of January, 1992. It appears to be
25 stamped and signed.
1 Your Honour, the next document, P101 or P31, was looked at by
2 Dr. Donia, and is the eleventh session minutes.
3 Then the document at P102 is conclusions of the Assembly of the
4 Republic of the Serbian people. Well, again, it could -- it may or may
5 not bear a signature. The stamp is pretty illegible. It comes from
6 Bihac, this particular document, and relates to the referendum that was
7 about to be held.
8 Then, Your Honour, the next document.
9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, we object to it
10 because the signature is not clear and because it comes from the AID in
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
13 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honour, the next document is a monthly
14 report of the security services in Banja Luka to the Ministry of the
15 Interior of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It's
16 signed -- let's just check that. Well, there is a stamp and apparently a
17 signature of Stojan Zupljanin and that actually was taken from Prijedor
18 Police Station.
19 Your Honour, the next document, P104, is a leaflet, apparently --
20 and I think it was dealt with yesterday by the witness, or the day before,
21 or the day before that. And I think there was an objection raised then
22 because it was just a leaflet without any accompanying --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Next, P105.
24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Ms. President.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
1 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We object to this document
2 because it comes from Bihac and it is obviously not signed. It cannot be
3 signed. But moreover, I do not believe that this is the document that the
4 witness was referring to that Ms. Korner just mentioned because the
5 document that the witness was referring to was referring to the referendum
6 linked to the Vance-Owen Plan.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: She may be right. Probably she is. Madam Fauveau
8 is right, Ms. Korner.
9 MS. KORNER: Yes. I don't -- I don't think so. I think it is the
10 same document, although he had it himself. But I'll double-check that. I
11 think it was the same document. But he produced his own version, and in
12 fact I think I asked for it to be exhibited, forgetting that we had it in
13 here because it comes from a different source. But I'll check that.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: In any case, this is being objected to by --
15 MS. KORNER: I understand that, Your Honour. I understand that
16 it's being objected to.
17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps it is the same
18 document, but the witness clearly said that the document that he was
19 talking about was in relation to the referendum on the Vance-Owen Plan.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Next 105.
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, 105 is a letter to the Minister of the
22 Interior, signed by Mr. Kesic apparently, seeking certificates for
23 firearms, pistols.
24 Your Honour, then the next document, which is P106, also P36,
25 because it was looked at by Dr. Donia, and it's conclusions again.
1 P107 is an article in Glas headed "Brdjanin directing again,"
2 dated the 11th of February, 1992, and is the resignation -- the subject is
3 "Celinac. Resignation of Dr. Milorad Kuzmanovic, president of the
4 Serbian Democratic Party's municipal board. Under the microscope." And
5 there is quite a long article about that.
6 The next document are the -- which is P108 is the minutes of a
7 meeting held in Banja Luka and appears to be - I can't say any more than
8 that - minutes of a meeting concerning the Ministry of the Interior.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We object to this document
11 because we don't know exactly what was the body that they had a meeting;
12 it doesn't have a seal; and it was obtained from Sarajevo, the Security
13 Services Centre in Sarajevo.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Madam Fauveau.
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, all I can say is by reading the text, it
16 appears to be in connection with police work in various areas. But that's
17 all one can say.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Certainly. But we don't
20 know who these people are who met in order to discuss police work.
21 MS. KORNER: Well, that's not in fact quite right, because we've
22 heard evidence about Stojan Zupljanin and Mr. Tutus, both of whom are
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Next document, Ms. Korner. Otherwise you will see
25 Mr. Ackerman standing up.
1 MS. KORNER: Then Your Honour, the next -- the next document is a
2 publication called "Derventski List." It's dated the 13th of February,
3 1992. And it's headed "Bridge to the Krajinas." And it is in respect of
4 the meetings of the -- a meeting of the SDS.
5 Your Honour, then the next --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: May I ask, is Derventa a municipality or a town or
7 a --
8 MS. KORNER: It's a municipality, yes.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
10 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honour, the next document is another
11 article in Glas, which is P110, and is a statement by the National Defence
12 Council in Celinac. It appears to relate to the article we looked at
13 earlier --
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, "Brdjanin director again."
15 MS. KORNER: Yes.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
17 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honour, the next document is municipal --
18 it's meetings effectively -- abridged minutes of the 15th session of the
19 municipal assembly in February of 1992. And it's -- in fact, it's quite a
20 long document.
21 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Excuse me.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
23 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] We object to this document
24 because it is not a complete transcript, complete minutes, and we don't
25 know whether what was said at the meeting are exactly as they appear in
1 the minutes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sure Ms. Korner will take note of that, as the
3 Chamber is.
4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, moving along at a bit more speed, the
5 next document, which is document -- I've just lost my --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: 112.
7 MS. KORNER: Yes, 112. Thank you. Your Honour, we've already
8 looked at.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That was used in the -- during the --
10 MS. KORNER: The previous witness.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, 113 is an agenda for the 21st of
13 February for a meeting to be held in the cultural centre.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.
15 MS. KORNER: The next document is P114 or P37, which is
16 instructions concerning the plebiscite, as it's put, of the Muslim and
17 Croat people.
18 Then the next document, P115, an instruction to the municipal
19 boards of the SDS, signed by Rajko Dukic.
20 The next document, P116, is a document which is a decision that
21 Mr. Vukic is to become the member in charge coordinator for the Autonomous
22 Region of Krajina, signed by Mr. Dukic. Or again, it may have a
23 signature, but it doesn't appear there's a stamp on it.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
25 MS. KORNER: I appreciate --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau.
2 MS. KORNER: Can we take it, Madam Fauveau, that -- I mean, that
3 anything that comes from Sarajevo or whatever is objected to?
4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, exactly.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
6 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honour, the next --
7 JUDGE AGIUS: 117.
8 MS. KORNER: 117 is another article from Oslobodenje, 27th of
9 February, 1992, which is apparently a press conference at which -- or
10 interviews with which Brdjanin and Krajisnik were speaking.
11 The next document is again an agenda or extract from the 14th
12 session of ARK held on the 29th of February, 1992, which is P -- either
13 118 or 35, because Dr. Donia dealt with that.
14 Then an article in Glas reporting on the session in the Krajina
15 Assembly. It's dated the 2nd of March, and it's called "Sharing
16 Sovereignty." And there are a number of quotes from what was said.
17 The next one, P120 or 38, agenda for the 15th session on the 14th
18 of March -- 4th of March. I'm so sorry, followed by a document that we've
19 already looked at, the Radio Banja Luka, on the 6th of March, 1992.
20 That's P121.
21 P122, Your Honour, that is a publication called Slobodna Bosna.
22 It's dated the 12th of March, headed "Serbs prepare for war." And in
23 fact, it reproduces the instructions for the organisation activities of
24 the organs of the Serbian people, the Variant A and B document, which one
25 can see in the next few pages.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, unless the English version has been
2 taken out by my secretary and put in some other folder -- in other words,
3 unless this document was put to a previous witness, I don't have the
4 English text.
5 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour, it -- I understand we were made
6 aware that certain documents were missing and we provided copies of -- I
7 think what happened is some of the translations came in late. We've given
8 to the Registry copies of all the translations and asked them to insert
9 them in Your Honours' bundle. So it may be that before we start
10 recopying, the Registry and Your Honours' legal officers could check,
11 because they may be sitting around the place and just haven't been put in.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. I pointed it out, because I don't recall
13 this document being put to any witness.
14 MS. KORNER: It hasn't been put to anybody yet. And we haven't
15 got as far as dealing with Variant A and B, because the objection was
16 drawn at that stage.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: But it wasn't to Mr. Donia either.
18 MS. KORNER: To?
19 JUDGE AGIUS: To Dr. Donia either.
20 MS. KORNER: No. I think he referred to it, but I don't think
21 that he actually -- I think that's right. We didn't have the English
22 translation at that stage.
23 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Ms. Korner, please, 123.
25 MS. KORNER: Yes. Then, Your Honour, the next document, which is
1 P123, is a review -- it's entitled "A review of security information,"
2 addressed to the Minister of the Interior, signed by Mr. Kesic, and there
3 is a signature on the letter.
4 P124 would appear to be the document enclosed with the letter that
5 we just looked at.
6 Then the next document, P125, to all municipal boards of the
7 Serbian Democratic Party, dated the 13th of March, in accordance with the
8 stance adopted, required to assess the possibility of establishing a
9 Serbian municipality in your area of activities, stamped and signed by
10 Mr. Dukic. And that comes from the municipal assembly building in
11 Prijedor and was actually seized by Mr. Inayat. So we could have --
12 Then there's an article in Glas dated the 14th of March. And I
13 think we looked at that -- maybe not. But it's really -- it's Dr. Vukic
14 sounding off again.
15 Then P127 we've looked at with the last witness.
16 P128, an article in Glas reporting on the first extraordinary
17 convention of the Banja Luka Serbian Democratic Party.
18 And then the next document, which is an evaluation of the security
19 situation by the CSB, 25th of March. And it's not apparently signed. It
20 comes from the CSB building.
21 Then the next document, P130, is a notice or it's -- it appears to
22 be a document from the Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
23 dated the 23rd of March, addressed to all presidents of municipalities.
24 The document bears apparently a seal and a signature, and appears
25 to come from Dr. Karadzic.
1 P131 is the evaluation of the security situation in the Banja Luka
3 P132 is apparently a notice that -- of the referendum. I think it
4 must be -- almost certainly is in the wrong place, because if it's talking
5 about the referendum taking place at the end of "this" month, I think it
6 must -- well, we'll leave it, but I'm not sure it's in the right
8 Then the next document is P133, again the security situation in
9 Banja Luka in March.
10 We've looked at the next document, which is P134. It's the
11 announcement of the demands made by the SOS group.
12 P135, we've also looked at, because it's -- it was put, I think,
13 by Madam Fauveau, about people who wanted to change their name, to one of
14 the earlier witnesses.
15 Then the next document, P136, again is a Security Services Centre
16 report, this time dated the 3rd of April, no sign or signature but taken
17 from the CSB building.
18 Glas, the next document, P137, again we looked at that with the
19 last witness because it's a report of the SOS.
20 P138, this is an unknown publication, in the sense that it appears
21 to have been cut out and arrived from -- it says "open source." I think
22 we ought to be able to do a bit more than that. In any event, it's an
23 article headed "Izetbegovic Declared War" and refers to a press conference
24 given by the SDS regional board in Banja Luka and the vice-president of
25 the Autonomous Region speaks, and again it's in relation to the SOS.
1 Then the next document, P139, is again a -- something that we
2 looked at together with the last witness.
3 P140 is an example of the loyalty oath that had to be taken by
4 members of the CSB.
5 The next document, P141, again, we looked at with the last
6 witness, and I believe P142, yeah, and P143.
7 P144 is a report from the Banja Luka -- or to the Banja Luka --
8 I'm sorry, from the Banja Luka SJB, which is one down from the CJB, about
9 events that had gone on.
10 And finally, we have a report which comes from the CSB, Your
11 Honour, so it's a report that was found there, which talks about the
12 deterioration in the Banja Luka region and Kotor Varos, Jajce, Sanski Most
13 and Prijedor.
14 And Your Honour, virtually it's bang on midday.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Perfect. If Mr. Ackerman hadn't raised more
16 objections, we would have finished a little bit earlier.
17 Our agenda for next week is --
18 MS. KORNER: Holiday, I hope.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: For after -- I take it you will liaise with the
20 Defence just prior to our resumption.
21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we are continuing with the order as it
22 was, yes.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, Mr. Ackerman?
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'd like to request that we set aside
25 maybe the first hour or hour and a half of our next sitting, because I
1 would like to go through the defendant Brdjanin exhibits with you.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: The same way.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: And make suggestions and explanations with regard
4 to them.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: No argument, but --
6 MR. ACKERMAN: No argument.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: He wants to do exactly the same thing you did.
10 MS. KORNER: I know, Your Honour, but it's not the Defence case.
11 Your Honour, he's perfectly entitled to do that when and if he mounts his
12 Defence case, to take Your Honours through --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: I think she's right, Mr. Ackerman.
14 MS. KORNER: The order of evidence, according to the rules --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: You're definitely right.
16 You cannot introduce now and intrude now and interrupt her case to
17 present yours. We will come to you and you will be treated exactly the
18 same, Mr. Ackerman.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Anything else before we rise? So I -- we will
21 resume on the 3rd of April, according to our agreed schedule, at 9.00 in
22 the morning. I think the sitting is on the morning in that day, no?
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we have had no schedule yet, official
24 schedule, as to when we are sitting.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: That's a pity, because I know that it is available.
1 I know that the first week we are sitting in the morning, and as from the
2 second week, right through the end of the month, we are sitting in the
3 afternoon. That much I know for sure. That's about it. I do have the
4 schedule right through July, actually, but --
5 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour has the advantage over all of us, I
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Ms. Korner raises a good point. There seems to be
8 some secrecy about the schedules here. We don't get them, I don't know
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I will give instructions to my secretary to see that
11 you are furnished with what we were furnished. More or less the situation
12 as suggested to me is that in April, we are sitting mostly in the
13 afternoon, except for the first couple of days in the first week. May, if
14 I remember well, with the exception of a couple of days, we are sitting in
15 the morning. June, I think it's the entire month in the afternoon. July,
16 I think it's the entire month in the afternoon, with the exception of a
17 week or something like that. That's -- but that's negotiable because it
18 depends also on Stakic starting when it's starting, and also we had to see
19 that the sharing of the courtrooms is -- anyway, in other words, it's not
20 exactly 100 per cent definite schedule, but it is available for sure, and
21 I have asked my secretary also to pinpoint the agreed breaks that we will
22 be having between now and the end of July.
23 MS. KORNER: Yes. We very kindly received the notification from
24 the Senior Legal Officer as to the breaks. It was simply a question
25 whether we were sitting morning and afternoon or -- I suppose there is
1 some rhyme or reason to doing mornings one week and afternoons the other.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: The suggestion was that, but there is a problem with
3 one of the trials that is always being heard in the morning, as you know,
4 and that occupies one courtroom, practically it's in the morning and part
5 of the afternoon. That leaves us with two courtrooms, and with four other
6 ongoing trials, that is manageable. With six ongoing trials, the moment
7 Stakic starts next month, there may be a little bit of a -- not exactly a
8 problem, but one has to sort out --
9 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, of course, A, I don't know whether
10 Your Honour is aware - probably not - we have sent in an application to
11 delay the start of Stakic.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not aware of that.
13 MS. KORNER: We've put that in for the reason that, interestingly
14 enough, had we stuck to the original chronology, the two of them would
15 have coincided. Now they won't. But -- which is not objected to by the
16 Defence. But it does of course -- it's all very well saying we can run
17 six trials, but that means unless the trial in court number -- the trial
18 in Court number I is only going to sit mornings, there is no possibility
19 of, it seems to me, running six trials.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: The indication that I have, Ms. Korner, is that
21 according to the schedule that I have in my possession - I don't have it
22 with me because I didn't know we were going to discuss this in so much
23 detail - but the indication that I have is that Courtroom number I will be
24 used for one particular trial, and I suppose it's the same schedule that
25 we have now. In other words, from 9.30 until 1.00 and then -- that's the
1 impression that I have. How we are going to fit in the other five trials,
2 I don't know, but each trial has already a break planned periodically, and
3 I know that we will be alternating some chambers in the morning, some
4 chambers in the afternoon. There are weeks when two trials will be
5 alternating, as you said, two weeks in the morning, two weeks in the
6 afternoon. It's a little bit complicated. I was more interested in this
7 trial than in others, and in actual fact, I will be trying to see if we
8 could actually shift some of the sittings to the morning rather than keep
9 going in the afternoon for two solid months, even though these are months
10 when you finish at 7.00 in the evening it's still beautiful here in The
11 Hague, and you have ample time for what you need to do.
12 MS. KORNER: I don't think Your Honour has spent a summer in The
13 Hague yet.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't.
15 MS. KORNER: Saying it's beautiful in The Hague in the evenings,
16 well, occasionally.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: I haven't. I haven't. I do mean to spend the whole
18 of August in my country where it's beautiful and hot.
19 Anyway, we will meet again on the 3rd of April, and those of you
20 who celebrate Easter between now and then, Happy Easter, and we will meet
21 to resume or work as agreed.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
23 12.13 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
24 the 3rd day of April, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.