1 Tuesday, 16 April 2002
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.17 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could you call the case, please.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number
7 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear
9 me in a language that you can understand?
10 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your
11 Honour. I can hear you and understand you.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. You may sit down.
13 General Talic, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a
14 language that you can understand?
15 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
16 Yes, I can hear you.
17 THE INTERPRETER: The microphone is not switched on.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: It's all right. It still registered.
19 Okay. Appearances for the Prosecution.
20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, appearances in order of seniority:
21 Joanna Korner, Anna Richterova, Ann Sutherland, assisted by Denise Gustin,
22 case manager.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner. And good afternoon to
25 Appearances for Mr. Brdjanin.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman
2 for Mr. Brdjanin, along with my co-counsel Milka Maglov and my legal
3 assistant Tania Radosavljevic.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.
5 Appearances for General Talic.
6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr.
7 President, Your Honours. I'm Natasha Fauveau-Ivanovic, and I represent
8 General Talic.
9 Before beginning, I should like to inform the Chamber that
10 yesterday we filed a motion -- or rather, a response to the Prosecution
11 motion regarding two witnesses for the admission of their statements under
12 92 bis. Unfortunately, two errors crept into that motion, and I wish to
13 convey my excuses to Your Honours and also to the representatives of the
14 Office of the Prosecution, and to inform you that we filed corrections
16 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. I have it in my Chamber -- I was
17 waiting for the translation. I just went through it in French, but I
18 don't have the corrected versions, or the corrections. So I will wait for
19 those. Good afternoon to you.
20 Preliminaries? Ms. Korner.
21 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, Mr. Ackerman remarked as he walked
22 in that something must be seriously wrong if there were three of us here
23 today. It's not actually the case. Your Honour, I'm here really to
24 tender my apologies on behalf of myself and Mr. Cayley that neither of us
25 can be here this afternoon. As Your Honour knows, Stakic started this
1 morning, and I have to deal -- or I have to see the witness for tomorrow
2 this afternoon, and I have to get back to Stakic tomorrow morning. That's
3 what you might call all-go at the moment. So that's the real reason I'm
4 here; to apologise. But while I am here, can I just deal with a couple of
5 matters that I understand that Your Honour raised.
6 First of all -- or rather, Mr. Ackerman raised yesterday. One was
7 the question of the sitting hours and translation. Your Honour, we
8 discussed the matter, and it seems to us that it really must be subject to
9 Your Honours' rulings, obviously, matter for the interpreters, if they
10 feel that they can't cope with short breaks.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Definitely. But the information I received during
12 the break did not exactly tally with what Mr. Ackerman had said. I mean,
13 it's something which is going to be verified, of course. And as I said,
14 the last thing that this Chamber would try to do is to inconvenience the
15 interpreters. I know how difficult their job is and how demanding it is
16 on the mental powers of concentration. So you can rest assured that we
17 will take everything into consideration and we will make any adjustments
18 that may become necessary as we go along.
19 I am informed, however, that the problem was not exactly what
20 Mr. Ackerman mentioned or how he described it. In any case, it's being
21 checked by Madam Registrar, and I'm being kept informed.
22 As for today, I think we are going to maintain -- maintain the
23 same schedule as yesterday except that there will be times when we will
24 break for five minutes only, giving the technicians time -- enough time to
25 change the tapes, which I understand have to be changed every hour and 40
1 or 45 minutes, instead of every two hours. So -- but that is being taken
2 care of. I do appreciate your concern for the interpreters, Ms. Korner.
3 I think we all share the same concern. We know how precious they are and
4 how useful and dedicated they are to the work of this Trial Chamber -- to
5 this Tribunal, not just this Trial Chamber. I thank you.
6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, then two other matters. First, in
7 respect of the time that will be required to deal with the application on
8 behalf of the journalist to set aside the witness summons on the 10th of
9 May, Your Honour, I would say that the maximum two hours, and probably
11 JUDGE AGIUS: But would that include Mr. Robinson's intervention,
12 the lawyer, in other words, your -- possibly your intervention, and any
13 anticipated interventions from the Defence teams, or just -- or just
14 Mr. Robinson?
15 MS. KORNER: It's -- really, we're working on the basis that it --
16 Mr. Robertson is going to apply to set aside the witness summons, grounds
17 at the moment unknown to me.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: That's what I would imagine.
19 MS. KORNER: Yes. And we would respond. But obviously, I
20 suppose -- well, no. Your Honour, I don't think unless Your Honours were
21 to allow either Defence team to intervene, it's not really a matter for
22 the Defence. We have issued -- no, I'm sorry, Your Honours have issued a
23 witness summons, a lawful witness summons. Mr. Robertson is going to
24 object, we're going to respond, and I think it's a matter, Your Honour,
25 whether the Defence have a right to intervene.
1 I see Mr. Ackerman straight up.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: So that point is taken. There is another point --
3 yes, Mr. Ackerman.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I totally agree with Ms. Korner, as we
5 would say in Texas, I don't have a dog in that fight.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Given that perhaps after having heard
7 Mr. Robertson's submissions, we decide to give an oral judgement decision,
8 say, the same day, are you anticipating that the journalist would be
9 present here in The Hague or to give evidence immediately, or do you
10 plan having him here at a later point in time?
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, my -- the idea would be that he's here.
12 And then if Your Honour rules that the witness summons should not be set
13 aside, he'd give evidence. I understand that he won't be here. I rather
14 feel that if the ruling goes against Mr. Robertson, there may be an
15 appeal. But as I understand the matter -- and I'm reluctant really to
16 go into detail -- he won't be here. But I will make -- I will
17 make further inquiries. As Your Honour knows, I have to reply to the
18 request that was made by the solicitors in respect of the transcripts,
19 which Your Honours have now ruled may be given. And I will ask whether
20 the journalist intends to be here.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And you can fit in Mr. Robertson -- not
22 Mr. Robertson, his client, the journalist -- anywhere within your
23 witness --
24 MS. KORNER: It would be preferable, Your Honour, obviously to
25 deal with him straight away, because it's close to the Banja Luka
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. And this is why I'm asking actually.
3 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think Your Honour -- I'm going to make some
4 further inquiries as to whether he would be here. Because if he is, then
5 we can deal with -- it's very short evidence --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I know. This is why I consider -- I mean, there may
7 be a principle involved. Mr. Robertson may be -- but it's not that
8 important, because there was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United
9 States precisely these last days. But somewhat -- somewhat different.
10 And it was disposed of because the matter such became moot in the
11 meantime. So -- but anyway, let's leave it at that, and then we'll take
12 it up on the 10th of May. In the meantime, I told Mr. Cayley and
13 Mr. Koumjian and I think Ms. Sutherland as well, that we will make any
14 adjustments as they may become necessary as we approach the date. But
15 with the understanding that Mr. Robertson's submissions will take place
16 during a normal session. In other words, not going to invent another
17 extra session.
18 MS. KORNER: No.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay?
20 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour, that in fact -- that really leads
21 into the final matter that I wish to raise this afternoon, because it
22 would fit in very nicely in a sense because that week where we don't sit
23 until the Tuesday has been set aside for the first of the witnesses from
24 the humanitarian organisation.
25 Now, Your Honour, that leads me on to the next question.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.
2 MS. KORNER: Mr. Ackerman has put in a motion saying that he wants
3 it -- that evidence delayed because of -- he's not received any assistance
4 so far. And in addition to that, the translation of Madam Fauveau's rule
5 -- submission on the Rule 70 aspect has also been received. Your Honour,
6 we can deal with Mr. Ackerman's submissions very quickly, verbally.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what I was getting to. As soon as you
8 finish --
9 MS. KORNER: Yes. And it may be -- I haven't had a chance to read
10 through the translation, although, like Your Honour, I read the French but
11 I'm always a bit nervous as to whether I've got the right meaning.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. We are exactly in the same position.
13 MS. KORNER: Yes. And therefore, I'd want to consider it. But it
14 may be that we feel at the end of the day that the submissions made by
15 Madam Fauveau are pretty much the same as those made by Mr. Ackerman, to
16 which we've already responded. And so we don't want to respond further.
17 What I was going to suggest was that tomorrow, after the witnesses
18 that Ms. Sutherland is calling have completed and before I call the next
19 witness, if we feel we've already dealt with Madam Fauveau's motion, I
20 could deal orally with Mr. Ackerman's.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: And --
22 MS. KORNER: It would be the fastest way of dealing with it.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That would be extremely useful, in particular
24 for two reasons -- main reasons: One is that we have been working and we
25 are already, I would say, in a -- at an advanced stage in our research on
1 the submissions made on Mr. Ackerman's motion on 70, particularly one part
2 of Rule 70. In the meantime, of course, the response of General Talic, of
3 Madam Fauveau, has come in, which I looked into again this morning. I do
4 not anticipate our decision to be delayed much on -- on this matter.
5 I would also anticipate that this is something which is
6 fundamentally important -- an issue which is fundamentally important, and
7 whichever way it goes, I would anticipate that there be an appeal. It is
8 also a matter which does not necessarily imply -- say, if it is decided in
9 favour of Mr. Ackerman in whole or in part, I would like you to consider
10 the possibility, if not the probability, that it does not necessarily
11 entail that the witnesses from the particular humanitarian organisation
12 cannot be produced. What is involved is something completely different
13 and which will be decided in favour or against but which may not exactly
14 have a bearing on whether your intended witnesses ought to be produced or
15 not. So that is something which, if you're going to discuss it tomorrow,
16 I would like you to take into -- take into consideration.
17 MS. KORNER: I'm afraid at this stage, Your Honour, having aroused
18 my interest somewhat, I'm somewhat at a loss to know -- I can't -- until
19 Your Honours have issued a ruling --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Obviously --
21 MS. KORNER: -- I can't deal --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Obviously, no. Because there is a possibility that
23 part of Rule 70 may not exactly comply with the basic principles. Let's
24 say that, for argument's sake, we decide that. But that opens the door --
25 one or more doors for the Defence. It doesn't necessarily close the doors
1 which you already have opened to produce witnesses from that organisation.
2 MS. KORNER: Well, this is gripping, Your Honour. So I think I'll
3 have to wait for the decision.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what I want you -- this is what I want you
5 to think about.
6 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, as best we can, we'll think about
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. And we will discuss it tomorrow. Tomorrow,
9 do you anticipate to be present at the beginning or towards the end of the
11 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I shall be present at the beginning
12 depending on -- although I know, as usual, the short administrative
13 matters have taken a little long, I am anticipating, I hope, that even if
14 there is a little bit left over of the witness coming next, we will be
15 starting with another witness. So I will be here from 2.15.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
17 MS. KORNER: And if Your Honour -- unless there is any other
18 matter I can assist on, if Your Honour will excuse me from the rest of the
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly I will.
21 Okay. So anything else?
22 Can we call the witness now, please. Usher.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Mr. Fazlagic.
25 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: This will be your last day before this Chamber. And
2 I kindly ask you to make the same solemn declaration that you made
3 yesterday and last Friday. Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 WITNESS: IBRAHIM FAZLAGIC [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: You may sit down. Thank you.
9 THE WITNESS: Okay.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau.
11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Cross-examined by Ms. Fauveau-Ivanovic: [Continued]
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. You spoke yesterday about the last train leaving Banja Luka and
16 you said that the last train for Croatia left towards the end of 1991. Is
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Would you agree with me that trains were no longer leaving for
20 Croatia after that date because of the combat operations going on?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You also said that the last train for Sarajevo left at the end of
23 March 1992.
24 A. The beginning of March.
25 Q. Were there any trains for Belgrade after that date?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Were there buses for Belgrade after that period?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Until when?
5 A. Throughout, all the time.
6 Q. In May, June 1992, there were buses for Belgrade?
7 A. I'm not sure, but when the corridor was broken through, then
8 traffic was established with Serbia.
9 Q. Very well, sir. But before the corridor operation took place,
10 were there any buses?
11 A. I think not.
12 Q. So there was a period when Banja Luka was entirely cut off from
13 the world.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When JAT established airlines with Belgrade, were the buses still
16 going to Belgrade? And please give me an answer only if you know it.
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. You said, sir, that you remember that only Muslims and Croats were
19 leaving Banja Luka in April and May 1992. Do you remember saying that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Persons who were buying tickets, did you personally have any
22 contact with them, or did those people go to buy their tickets at the
23 ticket counter?
24 A. At the counter, with the exception of a few cases -- of some
1 Q. And the regular passengers were buying tickets at the counter.
2 That's right, isn't it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you were not at the counter, were you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. How do you know that the people who were buying tickets were only
7 Muslims and Croats?
8 A. Not in 100 per cent of the cases. There probably was a certain
9 number but a symbolic number of people of Serb ethnicity. But I know
10 because I frequently went to the airport and I saw there mostly -- mostly
11 in 90 something per cent of the cases -- that they were non-Serbs.
12 Q. These people that you saw, did you know them? The people that you
13 saw at the airport, did you know them?
14 A. A large number of them.
15 Q. You also said that you allowed for the possibility that some of
16 the tickets were resold afterwards for a higher price. Is that true?
17 A. I only assume that, because I heard that this was happening at the
19 Q. So according to you, it was Muslims and Croats who were selling
20 tickets to other Muslims and Croats for a higher price.
21 A. I'm not sure about that. It's more probable that it was the other
22 way around, because many people who couldn't get a ticket went directly to
23 the airport to try and board a plane in one way or another.
24 Q. When you say that you're not sure and that it was more probable
25 that it was the other way around, what did you mean? I didn't understand
1 your answer.
2 A. Well, perhaps somebody took advantage of the situation then and
3 perhaps managed to get a hold of two or three tickets more than they
4 needed, so they engaged in a business transaction.
5 Q. My question was: In those cases, was it non-Serbs reselling
6 tickets to other non-Serbs?
7 A. I don't know that. I think not.
8 Q. If it was only non-Serbs who were buying tickets in your agency,
9 how could Serbs be reselling those tickets?
10 A. It is not -- the possibility cannot be excluded that some Serbs
11 didn't buy tickets. I didn't claim that this happened in 100 per cent of
12 the cases, that they were all non-Serbs. For instance, there was other --
13 there were other agencies like INEX, the INEX agency, which was privately
14 owned by a Serb. And then there was another privately owned agency by a
15 young woman, of Serb ethnicity again, who came to our agency because they
16 were not allowed to sell tickets directly, so they would come to our
17 agency and buy a certain number of tickets. I assume for friends of
18 theirs or for some other purpose.
19 Q. Yesterday you spoke about another agency, the Putnik agency.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you said that their main activity was the sale of plane
22 tickets. Is that right?
23 A. Yes. Especially in that period of time.
24 Q. And you also said that you believed that the last flight from
25 Banja Luka to Belgrade left around the 18th of May, 1992; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. After the 18th of May, what were the activities of the Putnik
3 agency? What was it doing?
4 A. Virtually nothing.
5 Q. Was that agency closed?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Was Hamdija Trnovac its director until it closed, right up until
8 it closed?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Would you agree with me that Hamdija Trnovac lost his job because
11 the agency was closed?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Well, how did Hamdija Trnovac lose his job then? Do you know?
14 A. I don't know exactly when, the date, but it was probably at the
15 end of May or perhaps the beginning of June. At the end of May.
16 Q. And do you know when the agency was closed?
17 A. I think about then, because I went to see him at his home when he
18 stopped working, in fact, and he told me what had happened.
19 Q. In any event, after Hamdija Trnovac lost his job, the agency was
20 no longer working; is that right?
21 A. I think it wasn't. I'm not quite sure, but I think it wasn't
22 working. I passed by the agency, and really there was no one inside, in
24 Q. So Hamdija Trnovac's loss of job and the closing of the agency
25 happened more or less at the same time, did it not?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Yesterday you spoke of an explosion at the Ferhadija mosque.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did this explosion take place inside the mosque or in front of the
6 A. Outside the mosque.
7 Q. And you went to see the damage, and you saw that the damage was
8 insignificant; isn't that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Are you quite sure that the mosque was damaged as a result of that
11 explosion? Did you see any damage at all?
12 A. Yes, indeed.
13 Q. Are you quite sure that it is the mosque and not the building next
14 to it that was damaged?
15 A. I'm quite sure that it was the mosque.
16 Q. Could you describe the damage for us.
17 A. Well, the walls of the mosque are made of stone. And on the
18 street that leads from that crossroads to the Mejdan neighbourhood, as it
19 was called in those days, next to an optician's, owned by Mr. Cengic,
20 about 5 or 6 metres to the left, an explosive was thrown over the fence.
21 It probably fell next to the mosque. And then the fragments damaged the
22 stone wall of the mosque itself.
23 Q. Could you tell us how many mosques there were in Banja Luka in
25 A. I think there were at least 16.
1 Q. And in 1992, while you were still in Banja Luka, were there any
2 that were destroyed?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further
6 questions, Your Honour, for this witness.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Re-examination, Ms.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
10 Now, what's going to happen, Mr. Fazlagic, is that Ms. Sutherland
11 is going to ask you very few questions in addition to what she's asked you
12 already. And then we'll see whether there are any questions from us, and
13 short of that, that will be the end of it and you can go home.
14 Ms. Sutherland, you may proceed. Thank you.
15 Re-examined by Ms. Sutherland:
16 Q. Mr. Fazlagic, during cross-examination yesterday, Defence counsel
17 Mr. Ackerman asked you some questions in relation to the alleged dismissal
18 of Serbs from Atlas Prima Tours. He put to you the following scenario.
19 This is on page 4340 of LiveNote. "I bet there is room, in your mind, for
20 the possibility that what happened here was incorrect information was
21 given to Mr. Kasagic in December by one of your former employees who said
22 you had dismissed all Serbs and the only people left were two Muslims, two
23 Croats, and two Yugoslavs. That was then picked up by journalists and put
24 in Glas, that you had dismissed all of the Serbs and that there were only
25 two Muslims, two Croats, and two Yugoslavs left, and that Mr. Brdjanin
1 heard about that from Glas, believed it to be true, and repeated it when
2 he was interviewed. Now, that's a scenario that's probably true, isn't
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In response to the article by the two journalists published in
6 Glas in January 1992, did you give an interview which was also published
7 in Glas?
8 A. Yes.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I would like to witness to be shown
10 Prosecution Exhibit 5, which has been premarked as P536.
11 Q. Mr. Fazlagic, was an open letter also signed by the employees of
12 Atlas Prima Tours published in Glas shortly thereafter?
13 A. Yes. Yes, it was on their own initiative.
14 Q. Can I ask you to look at that document you have in front of you,
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What is the headline of that article?
18 A. "False accusations."
19 Q. And that's the letter you referred to in your testimony yesterday,
20 signed by the employees of Atlas?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Basically saying that the accusations that had been made in the
23 article by the two journalists was incorrect.
24 A. Yes.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can the witness be shown Exhibit P165, please.
1 I'm sorry. Just before that's taken from the witness.
2 Q. What's the date of the newspaper Glas, Prosecution Exhibit 536?
3 Does it have a date on the top left-hand corner? A month?
4 A. The month is January.
5 Q. 1992.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. [In English] Yes.
9 Q. Sir, if you could just look at P165.
10 A. [In English] Okay.
11 Q. You told the Court yesterday that the date of the actual article
12 which mentioned Mr. Brdjanin was dated the 28th of April, 1992; is that
14 A. [Interpretation] Yes. Well, no, the day after.
15 Q. That's right. The article you're referring to is entitled -- and
16 excuse my pronunciation.
17 A. The --
18 Q. Excuse my pronunciation, "Samo Kadrovi Lojalni Srpskoj BiH"?
19 A. Very good. Yes.
20 Q. And that's dated the 29th of April, 1992.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Between the open letter that was written by the Atlas Prima Tours
23 employees published in Glas in January 1992 and the date of the article
24 citing Mr. Brdjanin in April 1992, did Mr. Brdjanin or the Crisis Staff
25 contact you to ascertain what in fact was the correct position in relation
1 to the people that had been made redundant or had left Atlas Prima Tours?
2 A. No.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. That document can be returned to the
5 Q. Sir, yesterday during cross-examination, Mr. Ackerman showed you
6 P165, the ARK Crisis Staff conclusion terminating Atlas Prima Tours, dated
7 the 3rd of June, 1992. Mr. Ackerman asked you the following question -
8 and this is at page 4348 of LiveNote - "Again, Atlas continued to
9 function and ignored that decision." Your answer: "No, we didn't ignore
10 it, but in a kind of agreement, if I can call it that, we continued
11 working for a while."
12 Sir, after the 3rd of June 1992, decision was a directing body or
13 board appointed in relation to the agency?
14 A. There was a director who was appointed, Mrs. Nada Crljenica, and
15 she took over the responsibility.
16 Q. You mentioned very briefly yesterday in your testimony, at page
17 4315, two people were appointed -- I'm sorry. "A board of management of
18 Krajina Turist, two people were appointed to that board. I remember the
19 name of only one, Mr. Dusko Lajisic." Do you recall saying that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What purpose was this board established for? For what purpose?
22 A. Well, it was established so that immediately after Atlas was
23 disbanded, then the work would continue under a new name in the same
24 premises, which was still owned, which was still property of Atlas.
25 That's quite clear.
1 Q. Was their purpose to see through the termination of Atlas Prima
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. During this time that the board was established, after the 3rd of
5 June, 1992 decision, Atlas Prima Tours continued to work while the board
6 was doing whatever they were doing.
7 A. Probably. I don't know. Probably. They were preparing. They
8 were carrying out preparations later when I had already left Atlas, I saw
9 and found out that it had a new name. But up until that period, the
10 crossover period, the name was still Atlas Prima Tours. The name, as a
12 Q. Sir, Mr. Ackerman during cross-examination yesterday at page 4349,
13 made the following comment after discussing the ARK Crisis Staff
14 conclusion of the 9th of May -- and the decision of the 3rd of June,
15 1992. And Mr. Ackerman said: "It's probably true that it did exist,
16 because nobody was paying any attention to the decisions of this supposed
17 ARK Crisis Staff or implementing them in any way." Do you recall him
18 saying that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you agree with that? He didn't -- I'm sorry. Mr. Ackerman
21 didn't give you an opportunity to respond to that comment. Do you agree
22 with that?
23 A. No.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could the witness please be shown Prosecution
25 Exhibit 533.
1 Your Honour, I have a highlighted version of Prosecution Exhibit
2 533 with certain of the text highlighted which I wish to show to the
3 witness. Could he be --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: No. You can show the witness my copy, which is not
5 highlighted. I would rather prefer that. Yours is not highlighted
6 either, I suppose.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour. What I wanted to do was
8 to actually show him the highlighted text, this document with the text
9 highlighted and draw his attention to this highlighted text.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. I see. I'm sorry. I misunderstood
11 you. Yes, go ahead.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Usher?
13 A. [In English] Okay.
14 Q. Could you please look at the highlighted portions of that
15 document and --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Ms. Sutherland, on the ELMO we have exactly
17 what we have in front of us, so we don't know which part you have
18 highlighted for the witness.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry. Here is the English translation of
20 those highlighted portions.
21 Q. Sir, can you just read the highlighted portions of that document.
22 A. [Interpretation] "Based on a decision of the Crisis Staff of the
23 Autonomous Region of Krajina Banja Luka, decision number 03-531/92, dated
24 22nd of June 1992. I hereby issue -- and then the text follows. And
25 then: "In accordance with the decision of the Crisis Staff of the
1 Autonomous Region of Krajina, Banja Luka, number 03-531/92."
2 Q. Sir, in your view, did people pay attention and implement the
3 orders of the ARK Crisis Staff?
4 A. Well, we received officially just the decision on the cessation of
5 the work of the agency.
6 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions?
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Fazlagic --
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm sorry. I have
11 just one other issue that was raised in the cross-examination of
12 Madam Fauveau.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Go ahead.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND:
15 Q. Sir, yesterday, Madam Fauveau during her cross-examination asked
16 the following question. And this is at page 4360 of the LiveNote.
17 "Yesterday you spoke about General Talic and you said that you thought
18 that his brother went to school with you. Do you remember that?"
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I'm sorry. That was her question. You replied: "Yes. I said
21 that. But I said I wasn't certain whether that was General Talic's
22 brother's brother or his brother." And then your answer continued. In
23 order for us to be clear, who were you referring to when you answered
24 Madam Fauveau's question?
25 A. Yes. The acquaintances of a colleague of Dr. Talic. We thought
1 that that was so.
2 Q. I'm sorry. The transcript reads: "I wasn't certain whether that
3 was General Talic's brother's brother or his brother."
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Can't you forget it, Ms. Sutherland? It's not
6 going to change anything in the case, in any case, whether the witness --
7 the schoolmate was General Talic's brother or not, it's not going to
8 change anything. And this fine distinction between a brother's brother
9 and one's brother, frankly, I --
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm more than happy to leave it, Your Honour. I
11 just wanted the transcript to be clear.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: It's okay. But I don't think you're going to have
13 it cleared.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Okay.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Because you keep getting a "da," "da," "da," and
16 that's it.
17 So Mr. Fazlagic, that's the end of your testimony. On behalf of
18 the Trial Chamber, I would like to thank you for having come here to give
19 evidence and for your cooperation with the -- with the Chamber, with the
20 Prosecution, and also with the Defence teams. I thank you once more. You
21 will now be escorted out by the usher and taken care of. Thank you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, can I formally seek to tender the
25 exhibits which were introduced through this witness?
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And we'll go through them just by number.
2 It's --
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: P532.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: P533, P --
6 JUDGE AGIUS: What happened? What's wrong? Mr. Ackerman.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't know, Your Honour. There was some
8 communication going on between my co-counsel and my client. I have no
9 idea what it was about.
10 [Defence counsel confer]
11 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm sorry, Ms. Sutherland. Be patient.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I think it's just a matter of
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, if everything is okay, I don't need to know,
15 Mr. Ackerman.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. That's just what I was getting ready to tell
17 you. Everything is okay.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: I only need to know if there is a problem.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think so.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
21 So you want to tender as exhibits documents P532 through 536;
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Both numbers included.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thanks. They are so admitted as exhibits in that
3 And now we need to go -- the next witness is -- we have image
4 distortion and the use of a pseudonym. Please Madam Fauveau, Mr.
5 Ackerman, and Ms. Sutherland, do remember that. And I think we have to
6 put up the screen before the witness comes in. First we have to pull down
7 everything. No?
8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, yes, yes. We shall remain in here? I think
10 so, yes. We have seen it before, so we'll just make sure that it's done
11 the usual way, the normal way.
12 Where is the usher?
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE AGIUS: He cannot bring in the witness before the curtains
15 are drawn. Yes, there is, just behind ...
16 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me. Can I just confirm the protective
17 measures granted for the witness. Only facial distortion and pseudonym.
18 No voice distortion; is that right?
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: No voice distortion. That's correct.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] This was decided
22 [Microphone not activated] Ms. Sutherland, do you expect to finish
23 with this document today or tomorrow?
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Finish with this witness?
25 JUDGE AGIUS: With this witness.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. Today.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Today.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, today.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] And the next one you
5 reckon will take longer?
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Three days, we think.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Three days for the Prosecution, or that's including
8 the Defence.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: We're assuming that he will be finished
10 completing his testimony within three days. That's including the
11 cross-examination. But we don't know how much cross-examination either
12 Mr. Ackerman or Madam Fauveau would have.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Okay.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: You are going to be given a document on which there
21 is a solemn declaration to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
22 but the truth to this Tribunal in the course of your testimony. I would
23 now like to invite you to take that document in your hand and make -- read
24 out that statement loud. It's a solemn declaration that you are kindly
25 asked to make before you start giving evidence.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 WITNESS: WITNESS BT22
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE AGIUS: You may sit down.
6 Let me explain to you a few things before you start giving
7 evidence. First of all, I would like to confirm to you that following
8 your specific request, this Trial Chamber has granted you certain
9 protective measures.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: To hide your identity in particular. In other
12 words, we have decided that no one, that is, members of the public, cannot
13 see your face but they will only see a distortion of the image of
14 yourself. And if you have the monitor in front of you, you will be able
15 yourself to see, if you press "video monitor" you will be able to see how
16 you yourself will be visible to the general public on video. And
17 secondly, you are not going to be referred to by your own name. You have
18 been given a nom de plum, a pseudonym. You are going to be referred to
19 with a number, and that's also to protect your identity from -- hide your
20 identity from the general public.
21 Now, as you may have figured out, the three of us up here form
22 this Trial Chamber, the Bench. I am the Presiding Judge, and to my right
23 is Judge Janu, to my left is Judge Taya. And my name is Agius and I come
24 from Malta. We will be hearing and determining and deciding this case.
25 To your right is the team for the Prosecution. And the lady --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the third lady from you is the lawyer who will be conducting the
2 examination-in-chief, who will be firing questions at you today. She is
3 the counsel for the Prosecution in charge of you as a witness for the
5 To your left in the front row you see four persons. Now, the
6 first three, starting from the gentleman with the moustache and the beard,
7 that's the Defence team for Radoslav Brdjanin, the three of them, the
8 first three persons. The last person, the lady at the extreme right of
9 the front row is Madam Fauveau, and she is the counsel for General Talic.
10 The two teams are also entitled by law to ask you questions once the
11 Prosecution has finished with its questions.
12 Now, your duty here is a very simple one. You have decided --
13 volunteered to come forward and give evidence to tell us the truth, and
14 therefore your duty is to answer the questions that are put to you. My
15 invitation to you, in order not to have problems, is that you try to
16 understand the question, each question, and then to answer that question,
17 the whole question, and nothing but the question. That's the most
18 important thing. If you try to answer more or if you try to answer "yes"
19 or if you try to answer in a way in which you are not required to answer,
20 then obviously it will take longer and we will have problems. So my
21 invitation, again, please be precise, answer the question, the whole
22 question, and nothing but the question.
23 And with that, I invite Ms. Sutherland to start her
24 examination-in-chief. Thank you.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Could the witness please be shown this piece of paper.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, this is a piece of paper with your name on it.
3 Don't read it. Just look at it and tell us whether that is your name or
4 not. Just say "yes" or "no."
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, can you show it, please, to the Defence
8 I -- Ms. Sutherland -- but I saw BT22? Yes. But that's going to
9 be Exhibit P ...?
10 THE REGISTRAR: It's going to be P --
11 JUDGE AGIUS: 367?
12 THE REGISTRAR: P537. BT22 is the pseudonym assigned to this
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So it's going to be 537.
15 THE REGISTRAR: 537, under seal.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, perhaps it can be marked P539,
17 because we've premarked two exhibits.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I have no problems with that. So this is
19 being filed and it's being admitted as Exhibit P539 and it's been tendered
20 and admitted under seal.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I would request if we can go into
22 private session for a very short time so that I can ask some background
23 questions of this witness which would reveal his identity.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objections? So we'll go into private session,
1 [Private session]
12 Page 4399 – redacted – private session
7 [Open session]
8 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now. You may proceed. Thank
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Sir, did you provide a statement to members of the Office of the
12 Prosecutor in October last year?
13 A. I did.
14 Q. That statement was read back to you by an interpreter?
15 A. It was.
16 Q. You signed that statement?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When you were spoken to on Sunday, were you asked to review the
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Were you asked if there was anything incorrect in that statement?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You advised, upon reviewing your statement, you wished to correct
24 two things.
25 A. Yes.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness could be given a copy of his
2 statement in his own language.
3 Q. Sir, if I can take you to page 7 of that statement, where
4 the green tab is. In the English version, it starts on the last two lines
5 of page 6.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In the version you have in front of you, it starts the second full
8 paragraph, the fourth line from the end of the paragraph. The sentence
9 begins: "Samardzija then asked me about my other vehicles. I explained
10 that only the Mercedes was in my name and the other vehicles were in my
11 son's or other men's names." What did you wish to correct in this
12 last sentence?
13 A. Shall I make the correction straight away?
14 Q. Yes, please.
15 A. All the vehicles were in my name, but they were used by my son, by
16 my brother, and the workers in my company. And I only used the Mercedes.
17 Q. Thank you. Still on page 7, where the blue tab is, the last
18 sentence. And in the English version, this is halfway through the second
19 full paragraph on page 7. The sentence begins: "The Serbs asked if they
20 could come into my house because they wanted to search it." What did you
21 want to correct about that sentence?
22 A. I just wish to say that they didn't ask. They just entered.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mr. Usher, if you could return that document to
1 Q. Sir, you were a member of the Communist Party from 1969 until
3 A. Yes, I was.
4 Q. Did you join another party, a political party?
5 A. During the pre-election campaign, I joined the SDA party.
6 Q. Why did you join the SDA?
7 A. I am -- I listened and followed all the programmes of the parties
8 that were running in the elections. My opinion is that the SDA party in
9 those days offered the best programme. Furthermore, I felt that parties
10 like the SDS, with the emphasis on the Serbian Democratic Party, that that
11 was a party I could not belong to, or the Croatian Democratic Union, I
12 couldn't belong to that one either. They all had the adjective
13 "democratic," at least in those days. But the programme of the SDA party
14 was the most appealing to me, and that is why I became its member.
15 Q. Did you attend any political rallies?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you attend any SDS rallies?
18 A. I did.
19 Q. When was this?
20 A. It was during the election campaign. There were public rallies in
21 front of the Boska, next to the Boska in the cultural centre, in the
22 centre of town.
23 Q. Do you recall the names of any speakers at that SDS rally that you
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you name them?
2 A. I can. Nikola Koljevic, Biljana Plavsic, Momcilo Krajisnik, Mr.
3 Brdjanin, and many others.
4 Q. Do you remember specifically what any of the speakers said?
5 A. If you mean during the election rallies, all of them were saying
6 that everything would be fine in Bosnia. They made big promises, and they
7 appealed for unity --
8 Q. Did you --
9 A. -- of the Serb people.
10 Q. I'm sorry.
11 A. If we're talking about the SDS rallies.
12 Q. Did you attend any SDS rallies after the multiparty elections?
13 A. After the elections, I did not.
14 Q. This SDS rally that you said you attended, do you recall the
15 general theme of the rally?
16 A. The gist of it was by an open appeal to the people that all the
17 Serbs should give their voice for the SDS party, give their vote for the
19 Q. Do you recall anything else that was said at this rally?
20 A. I must admit that all the speeches were nationalistically intoned
21 and that already then one could discern a call for Serbs and Serbdom, an
22 appeal being made for them.
23 Q. Sir, I'd like to ask you some questions about the period after the
24 mobilisation in 1991. Did you have meetings with the mayor of Banja Luka?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Who was the mayor of Banja Luka, if you recall?
2 A. Mr. Predrag Radic.
3 Q. How often were these meetings held?
4 A. Once a week.
5 Q. What was the purpose of these meetings?
6 A. We reported on the problems we were encountering. He took note of
7 them, promising to take certain steps to eliminate those problems.
8 Q. Do you recall the time period these weekly meetings occurred in
10 A. The end of the summer.
11 Q. You said that you reported on the problems that you were
12 encountering. Can you tell the Court what sort of problems these were.
13 A. It was a difficult period in Banja Luka. People were mostly
14 losing their jobs or had already lost them. There was the problem of
15 shooting and violence by armed men that could not be explained. Then
16 there was a problem of all possible kinds of mobilisations that they
17 carried out. And we had to say what the difficulties were that we were
18 encountering in the parts of town in which we lived and worked.
19 Q. Where were these meetings held?
20 A. The first meeting was held in the premises of the local community.
21 The second meeting -- all the other meetings were held in the building of
22 the Municipal Assembly of Banja Luka.
23 Q. Who attended these meetings?
24 A. At the first meeting, there were representatives of the civilian,
25 the military, and police authorities. So representatives of the civilian
1 authorities, the military, and the police.
2 Q. The meetings that you had with Mr. Radic in the municipal assembly
3 building, who attended those meetings with you?
4 A. Do you wish the names of the people? Do you want me to give you
5 the names?
6 Q. What positions did these people hold?
7 A. People went to those meetings -- that someone believed to be
8 influential among the population in those parts of town. So there were
9 people of various backgrounds and occupation, ranging from manual workers
10 to engineers.
11 Q. How long did these meetings last in 1991?
12 A. For two, two and a half months.
13 Q. Were there any meetings held in 1992?
14 A. No. I apologise. That's a mistake. The meetings were in 1992,
15 in fact.
16 Q. I'm sorry. When did the meetings with Mr. Radic begin, the
17 meetings that lasted for two to three months? When did they begin?
18 A. In the summer of 1992.
19 Q. Sir, a moment ago I asked you about meetings that were -- that
20 occurred just after the mobilisation in 1991. You spoke briefly about one
21 meeting held in the local commune. And then you said that there were
22 further meetings with Mr. Radic held in the municipal assembly building.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where you reported on incidents and problems that were occurring.
25 Just so that I'm -- just so that it's clear, when did these meetings occur
1 with Mr. Radic?
2 A. At the end -- I may have made a mistake, but this is quite
3 certain. At the end of the summer of 1991.
4 Q. Thank you. Sir, did you see any soldiers when they returned --
5 oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Just going back to these meetings with Radic.
6 When you discussed the problems that you were having and you reported
7 several incidents that were occurring, what was Mr. Radic's response, if
8 you recall?
9 A. Mr. Radic promised every time that he would undertake all measures
10 to avoid such incidents. However, every meeting was like a repeat of the
11 previous one, and nothing was undertaken.
12 Q. Did he ask you to do or not do certain things?
13 A. Yes. He told us in the form of advice and told us to tell others
14 that we shouldn't be seen much in the streets, that we shouldn't gather in
15 groups, to avoid contacts with the Serb soldiers, in order to reduce the
16 risk and the possibility of conflict situations.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sutherland, can we stop for about two or
18 three minutes, the time being until they change the tape, thank you.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, you may go ahead. Thank you.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Sir, just before we had a short break to change the tape, you said
23 that Mr. Radic told you that you shouldn't be seen much in the streets,
24 that you shouldn't gather in groups, to avoid contacts with Serb soldiers,
25 in order to reduce the risk and the possibility of conflict situations.
1 Who are the "we" that you're referring to?
2 A. He meant the Muslim population from the areas that we
4 Q. Sir, did you have any meetings with Mr. Radic in 1992?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And the question I began to ask you a moment ago: Did you see any
7 soldiers when they returned from the front in Croatia?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What did you see them doing?
10 A. Well, at the time, Banja Luka was a town filled with shooting or
11 even worse than that, if we can say that. It was a town full of armed
12 people, lots of weapons, lots of upheavals, disorders. Everyone who was
13 able-bodied, young, they were mobilised. It was a town of soldiers.
14 Often they were drunk, and then they would fire on and on. In any case,
15 this disturbed the normal population in Banja Luka and brought in a lot of
17 Q. Were they shooting at anything in particular?
18 A. They fired everywhere, if one can say that. Most favoured targets
19 were religious facilities, if they went through Muslim areas where there
20 were mosques, then they would start shooting ceaselessly. Those mosques,
21 all 16 of them, would later be destroyed. They fired at houses. They
22 fired at shops. These were savage acts of behaviour.
23 Q. I want to turn to another topic. Do you know the accused Radoslav
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. When did you first hear of Radoslav Brdjanin?
2 A. I heard about him before the SDS party was formed. And when he
3 arrived in Banja Luka, I learned some details about him, where he comes
4 from, who he is, and what he does.
5 Q. When was the first time you heard of Mr. Brdjanin?
6 A. I think that was in 1990.
7 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Brdjanin on television?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you recall what period of time that was?
10 A. He appeared on television often.
11 Q. Do you --
12 A. At first he was a deputy, I believe, in the Assembly of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. He was in the Assembly of the Serbian people. He was
14 a Serb delegate, a Serb deputy. So he was often seen on TV and heard on
15 the radio and appeared in the press.
16 Q. When was the --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Please ask the witness to place this within a time
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: That was my next question, sir.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Because that was also included in your previous
21 question, but he didn't answer it. Thank you.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND:
23 Q. Sir, what time frame did you see Mr. Brdjanin on television?
24 A. In 1990, 1991, 1992.
25 Q. In relation to the period that you saw Mr. Brdjanin on -- how
1 many -- sorry. How many times did you see Mr. Brdjanin on television in
3 A. I cannot give you the precise date. On several occasions.
4 Q. What was the nature of the programmes that you saw him on in
6 A. He was often a guest on TV, and he would then make speeches. And
7 some of the kind of speeches that he gave would absolutely terrify all
8 non-Serbs in Bosnia and even elsewhere. These were mostly political
10 Q. Can you tell the Chamber what sort of speeches these were. What
11 was the content of the speeches?
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I don't know that we have a time frame
13 for this particular question. And I'd ask that it be restricted to that
14 time period which is relevant to the indictment.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND:
16 Q. Witness --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman is right, Ms. Sutherland. Please
18 regulate your question or rephrase it. You can even be very specific and
19 direct the witness in this regard.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND:
21 Q. Witness, in 1992 can you please tell the Court the nature of the
22 speeches that you heard Mr. Brdjanin give on television at that time.
23 A. I said beginning, that these were political speeches. And they
24 were intoned in such a way that the Serbs were being called to unite, to
25 fight the aggressor, to triumph in combat operations, and there were also
1 matters in everyday life.
2 Q. Is there anything specific that you remember Mr. Brdjanin saying?
3 A. From his discussions, people cannot forget some terrifying,
4 humiliating remarks. Almost unbelievable. He said, for instance, that
5 Muslims were not a people, that they were nothing. He used to sometimes
6 call us "Turks" or "those who became Turks." He would speak of a town.
7 At that time, they were already calling it a state. They were talking
8 about only 2 or 3 per cent of Muslims. It was terrifying.
9 And then that he would then let the Muslims do the hardest types
10 of work and how can anyone speak -- that this was a man who was saying
11 that he would destroy all those in mixed marriages and their children.
12 How could I accept this when I, in my own family, I have Serbs and we have
13 children from mixed marriages. Such things cannot be forgotten. They're
14 even hard to pronounce.
15 Q. Did you hear -- sorry. Did you see anyone else on television,
16 giving similar sorts of speeches to Mr. Brdjanin -- to that of
17 Mr. Brdjanin?
18 A. In 1991, 1992 almost all those who spoke on television they gave
19 such speeches that they're hard to imagine by anyone who is normal.
20 Q. Sir, if I can direct your attention to the time period 1992. Do
21 you recall the names of anyone else you heard -- you saw on the
22 television, making similar speeches to that of Mr. Brdjanin?
23 A. As far as I'm concerned, I was greatly surprised by Professor Gugo
24 Lazarevic, which even today I find hard to comprehend that he used to be a
25 professor of mine. And there are others.
1 Q. Can you name them?
2 A. Most frequently, they were representatives of the military and the
3 civilian authorities.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you name them? This was your question.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Among others, Mr. Radic, Mr. Vukic.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND:
7 Q. Who was Mr. Vukic?
8 A. Mr. Vukic was at first the representative of the SDS party.
9 Otherwise, he's a gynaecologist in Banja Luka.
10 Then there was Mr. Milanovic. He's also a doctor from Banja Luka.
11 And many others.
12 Q. Do you recall, if anything, what Dr. Vukic said?
13 A. One thing that remained with me, when he said through laughter, as
14 a joke, that he would not charge for an abortion on any -- from any -- on
15 any Muslim woman so that there would be fewer and fewer Muslims. This
16 left a deep impression on me.
17 Q. Did you ever hear Radoslav Brdjanin on the radio in 1992?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you recall how many times you heard him?
20 A. Not many times, but I did hear him. I did listen to him, because
21 I believe he was a favourite of Nikola Deretic, who came, as far as I
22 know, from Prijedor, and he was a speaker on radio, a newscaster, and he
23 became a journalist. And I believe that he was pushing Mr. Brdjanin.
24 Q. Do you recall the nature of what Mr. Brdjanin said on the radio?
25 A. Mr. Brdjanin often spoke about the situation on the front. He
1 spoke of some borders and establishing new states, about the division of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina and such like. The strangest thing was when he was
3 determining the borders, and he kept talking about Greater Serbia. So I
4 was always amazed if it was possible that an intellectual could speak of
5 such things or imagine such things. Had he ever heard of history? That
6 left a deep impression on me.
7 Q. Do you recall reading anything in newspapers which Mr. Brdjanin
8 had said?
9 A. Yes, I did. I did read.
10 Q. During -- I'm sorry. During 1992 --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- what do you recall reading?
13 A. In 1992, yes. For instance, how he was able to be ironic when he
14 was asked, "Could now the Muslims who have remained, who are loyal
15 citizens, could these Muslims have managing posts?" And he said, "No."
16 See, these Muslims are now reading Politika, they're reading a Serbian
17 newspaper. And his ironic answer was, "Yes, because it is the best
18 newspaper." These are the kind of conversations that were held by Mr.
20 Q. I want to now ask you some questions in relation to SOS.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What does "SOS" stand for?
23 A. Serb defence forces.
24 Q. When was the first time you saw SOS in Banja Luka?
25 A. For the first time, I saw SOS members in the summer of 1991.
1 Q. How were they dressed?
2 A. They had military uniforms on, and they had red berets on.
3 Q. Where did you see them?
4 A. Camouflage uniforms. I saw them for the first time in front of
5 the municipality building.
6 Q. Did you have any personal encounter with the SOS?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When was this?
9 A. They came to see me, and they transformed, so to speak, into
10 blackmailers. They came to see me in the summer. And they asked -- they
11 wanted to be my protection force -- protection force that I would have to
12 pay for. They did this with many others, many other owners of shops and
13 businesses in Banja Luka who were non-Serbs. From me, to start with, they
14 asked for 1.000 Deutschmarks.
15 Q. Did you take them up on their offer?
16 A. No. I thanked them, and I said that I was satisfied with the
17 situation as it was.
18 Q. Sir, do you recall seeing a red van in Banja Luka?
19 A. Yes, very often.
20 Q. When was the first time you saw this red van?
21 A. I think that was in 1992. But before it, there were others who
22 had the same task as the red van.
23 Q. You said you think it was in 1992. Can you be more specific in
24 relation to the month?
25 A. It was -- I'm certain that it was in the spring. I'm certain
1 about the red van in the spring.
2 Q. Who were the persons involved with this van?
3 A. Do you want names?
4 Q. If you are able, yes.
5 A. Those were policemen, were members who were in the army centre in
6 Banja Luka. And among them, as far as I knew and also according to the
7 experiences of other people, there was Bosko Vuksan. With them also was
8 Riza. That's what his nickname was. I don't know his real name. He
9 was from Karanovac. And then there was Zuco. They addressed each other
10 by nickname, so we did not know their real names. I know that Zuco came
11 from the Rudarska Street, that he was a small businessman, and that he
12 made tombstones. And they often switched in their groups, and I know one
13 whose last name was Knezevic.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, I think we have to stop here for the
15 time being. We have a break. We will resume at quarter to 5.00. Thank
17 --- Recess taken at 4.14 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 4.47 p.m.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Ms. Sutherland, you may proceed. Thank you.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Sir, just before we broke, you mentioned several names who -- of
22 people who were involved with this red van. What did you see these people
24 A. The red van, like the other vans in Banja Luka, represented the
25 greatest evil, especially this red van which was synonymous with fear for
1 the non-Serbs. They went literally from house to house. They carried out
2 searches. They arrested people in the streets. They beat people until
3 they were unconscious. They would take them into custody into the former
4 army centre. Others to the Mali Logor. They would round people up in the
5 street or from their homes. Usually, in addition to weapons, they carried
6 wooden baseball bats with which they beat people.
7 Q. How were they dressed? I'm sorry. How were they dressed?
8 A. They were dressed in blue camouflage uniforms.
9 Q. You said they rounded up people in the street or from their
10 homes. Can you name anybody --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- that you saw being picked up by this red van?
13 A. An unlimited number, if necessary. Do you want the names?
14 Q. Please.
15 A. Ismet Rakovic, Angijad Gunic, Fahret Redzepovic, Reuf Gunic,
16 Sefket Tulek, Jasmin Hrnic. Do you want some more?
17 Q. Of the people you've just named, which of these people did you
18 personally see being picked up by the red van?
19 A. I intentionally listed all the people that I saw. As for those I
20 heard about and whom I saw after the beating, as I said, the list would be
21 endless. If you wish me to give you the names, I'll do so.
22 Q. If we can just deal with the people that you've mentioned to begin
23 with. Were these people picked up individually or in a group?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Which?
1 A. It depended on the time and the place. If they were looking for
2 them in the houses, then they would take them one by one. If they caught
3 them by surprise in the street, then they would arrest several at the same
5 Q. Can you just describe for the Court what happened when you saw
6 these people being picked up.
7 A. They would throw them into the car while beating them. And this
8 is Jasmin, [redacted], and they opened the door of the van and started
9 beating them so fiercely that people were screaming with pain to produce a
10 better effect and for them to achieve their goal, which in my opinion was
11 intimidation and expulsion of the non-Serb population. They would open
12 the back door of the van so that these screams and cries could be heard
13 outside for people to see it.
14 Q. What were the condition of these people after they had left the
15 red van?
16 A. All the people who came out of the red van were visibly, visibly
17 beaten up, with swellings and bruises. They could move with difficulty.
18 They could hardly move at all after a certain amount of time. They would
19 urinate blood, most of these people who were beaten up. It was horrible.
20 It was horrible.
21 Q. Did these people tell you that?
22 A. As these were [redacted], and it is customary and normal for
23 such people to be visited, quite a number of them were not very well off.
24 So I felt it my duty to take them some fruit juice, coffee, or something
25 to eat. And anyway, I would have visited them.
1 Q. How often was this occurring, people being picked up by the red
3 A. They would come to our neighbourhood almost every day. Sometimes
4 several times during the day.
5 Q. Were people also being picked up in this red van from the centre
6 of town?
7 A. When they were at the market, for instance, which is in the centre
8 of town, then they would carry out so-called raids, which would be quick
9 searches of Muslims, or rather, non-Serbs, because they treated the Croats
10 and all others in the same way, to see whether they had the appropriate
11 documents allowing them movement in town. If they didn't have those
12 permissions for movement, then those people would be rounded up and taken
13 away. And this also happened very frequently.
14 Q. You mentioned a moment ago that you also heard about others who
15 were picked up by this red van. Can you name them, please?
16 A. I can. As I know the people [redacted], I will go in
17 this order. Fahret Redzepovic, Angijad Gunic, Armin Gunic, Dzevad Sistek,
18 Ibrahim Gunic, Hanzalija Gunic, Bernard [phoen] Gunic, Samir Asic, Rokic
19 -- Samir Trokic. I apologise. Asic is Asmir, Asmir is the first name.
20 And Samir Trokic. Reuf Gunic, Sefket Tulek, Mukic -- Sead Omukic.
21 Q. All of these people that you either saw or heard being picked up
22 in the van, what was their ethnicity?
23 A. [redacted]
24 [redacted]. And all those who were arrested and beaten up were Muslims.
25 Q. If you know, were people also taken to coffee bars in this red
2 A. Yes. If I can put it that way, they organised orgies, one could
3 say. This gave them pleasure. Our pain gave them pleasure. And I
4 remember an example, when in Gornji Seher, in a coffee bar called Cobanin,
5 or "shepherd," they brought in young men they had picked up in Novoselija,
6 and they demanded that Jasmin Hrnic climb up on a table. They gave him a
7 beer bottle instead of a microphone for him to use and sing Serbian songs.
8 And then a few moments later, they would push him off the table and step
9 all over him. They were simply taking their pleasure in this way.
10 Q. Who owned this coffee bar?
11 A. The owner -- earlier on, this was a shop, and then it was changed
12 to a coffee bar and the owner was a Serb, a few kilometres away from
13 Seher. I think he comes from the village of Bukvalek.
14 Q. Did you have any personal experiences with this van?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you explain to the Court your experience.
17 A. Yes. This was in the autumn of 1992 -- no, the winter. There was
18 snow on the ground. When in my yard, seven of them arrived, led by Bosko
19 Vuksan. They entered the house, and that they just said that they wanted
20 to look for something. Among them --
21 Q. If you could just pause there for a moment.
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Sutherland.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry about that, Ms. Sutherland, but -- sorry about
1 that, Ms. Sutherland, but it was important. Please proceed. Thank you.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Sir, you were explaining to the Court your experience with the red
4 van. And you said that seven persons had arrived, led by Bosko Vuksan,
5 and they had entered your house. Can you continue.
6 A. Yes. A person that they addressed as Komandir, he was sitting
7 down and the others were standing. He assigned two of them to search the
8 ground floor level and that two of them go with my wife to examine the
9 shop. He said to them to pay attention to letters, literature, books,
10 weapons and to look closely into the bedrooms to see what was being read
11 at night, which they did.
12 Q. Were you ordered to do anything?
13 A. They said that they had come to carry out an examination and also
14 on the basis of a document that they had found in the house of Bajazit
15 Jahic. And on this document, there was a list of members of the Party of
16 Democratic Action. And he ordered me to go with them to show
17 them these addresses. I think that this part of our contact was a
18 provocation. What they wanted was my neighbours to see me in the red van,
19 to see me as an associate of theirs, as a collaborator who was assisting
20 the Serbs in carrying out something ugly. They showed me a list, and I
21 had to go with them to point out the houses, one by one. When my wife
22 asked them -- asked Vuksan not to take me away, he said, "Don't be afraid.
23 He'll be back." And indeed, I had to do what I considered to be
24 a nasty piece of business. I had to take them from one house to the
1 Q. What happened when you pointed out certain houses?
2 A. They would leave me in the van with the door open so that everyone
3 could see me. They started from Izmet Gunic. They wanted his house
4 first. And then Hazira Gunic's. Then they were looking for Samir
5 Barucija, Buzdalek Sefket, and the younger Gazic, Sead's son. I
6 don't know the young man's name. I can't remember.
7 Q. Once you pointed out these houses, what happened?
8 A. They would leave me, as I said, in the van with the door open, and
9 they would enter, with those bats, into the houses. I don't dare say
10 anything. They didn't bring the men out, but according to what I heard
11 after when I was released to go home, the same story was repeated. They
12 would break the glass, the paintings on the walls, and couple this with
13 threats: "Why aren't you going away? Why aren't you moving out? What
14 are you waiting for?"
15 Q. Sir, in 1992, did you ever go to the SUP?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you recall when this occurred?
18 A. In the summer of 1992.
19 Q. Why did you attend the SUP?
20 A. I received a summons to report to SUP. Nothing was stated on this
21 document as to the reason why, but in those, days there were checkpoints.
22 We called them checkpoints. There were -- they were places with Serb
23 police there and some sort of guards. At first, they wore the uniforms of
24 the Yugoslav People's Army and, later on, camouflage uniforms. They had
25 different uniforms. No one could come or leave --
1 Q. I'm sorry, sir. When you got to the SUP, were you interviewed?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What were you interviewed about?
4 A. Two police inspectors -- at least, that is how they addressed
5 them -- took me in to Mr. Drago Samardzija's office, a man I knew from
6 before. And they asked me where my vehicles were and why I hadn't
7 delivered them earlier on and why I hadn't responded to an earlier call.
8 And I explained that I couldn't pass through the checkpoints. So simply,
9 he asked and demanded where my vehicles were, which were needed by
10 Republika Srpska for their army.
11 Q. What did you tell him is this?
12 A. I told him, literally, what we have just corrected in my
13 statement, and that is that I only have the Mercedes -- that I only had
14 the Mercedes which I had handed over to the police when they came to my
15 house and drove it off, and I took out of my pocket, as I'm doing now, a
16 certificate which I received certifying that my vehicle had been
18 Q. Is that receipt dated?
19 A. If you wish to look at it, I haven't -- I didn't see the date.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher. [Microphone not activated] Let us see it
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry. Let's see it first.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you show it to Ms. Sutherland, please, and then
1 afterwards to both Defence teams, please.
2 Ms. Sutherland, do you have a copy -- does the Prosecution have a
3 copy of that receipt.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: May I ask you to -- pardon?
6 Yes. But first I would like to know whether the Prosecution wants
7 a copy of that receipt to be tendered as an exhibit.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
10 Yes, Madam Fauveau.
11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that
12 the Defence will use this document, so could we have copies of it,
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can we have copies made of that document. But
15 it is not being tendered as an exhibit as yet.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: May I look at it -- I'm sorry. May I look at it
17 one more time, Your Honour?
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, certainly.
19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I realise that it won't be
20 tendered, but we may do it during the cross-examination.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The position is as follows: The document will
22 be handed back to the witness. Obviously the witness has made it
23 available to the Chamber and to the parties. And that entitles the
24 Chamber to have copies made of that document, which obviously we can make
25 use of in the course of the cross-examination. That applies to the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Prosecution as well, both at this stage and as well in the re-examination
3 Sir, may I ask you to -- in case we don't finish with your
4 testimony today, may I ask you to bring that document with you tomorrow,
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.
8 Ms. Sutherland.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Sir, do you recall the month that your Mercedes was confiscated?
11 A. To tell you the truth, I don't recall. I don't know. There is no
12 date on the document, but I know it was summer. It was warm.
13 Q. Your signature appears on that document, does it not?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you tell the Court who the other signature belongs to.
16 A. Before I tell you, I have to tell you that the -- when the vehicle
17 was taken, the people who came to get it, as far as I know they were
18 working on the security in the town.
19 Q. If I could just pause there, sir --
20 A. And they were --
21 Q. I will ask you questions about that in a moment, but I asked you:
22 Can you tell the Court who the other signature is on that document.
23 A. On this place of the signature, that was the director of Blik, who
24 was the director of the company -- a clothes company, a retail -- they
25 were making uniforms for the army, for the Serbian army. He was a new
1 person. I don't know him from before. He had a large beard. And he was
2 short and dark. He did not introduce himself. But because of the
3 protocol, he had to sign it, because I asked for the certificate that my
4 vehicle was confiscated, and he then placed his signature there.
5 Q. Can you now describe for the Court how your vehicle was
6 confiscated and the persons involved in that confiscation.
7 A. They came between 2.00 and 4.00 p.m. I'm not quite certain when.
8 It was sometime in the afternoon. And they said that they needed the
9 vehicle for the new director of Blik --
10 Q. Excuse me.
11 A. -- who was appointed.
12 Q. I'm sorry to keep interrupting you. You said "they came between
13 2.00 and 4.00 p.m.." Do you recall the names of the people who attended
14 at your house?
15 A. Of course. Before that, I met this policeman whose name was
16 Crnobrnja. And he was accompanied by a short policeman. He was more
17 working like a car mechanic, or better to the point he knew about cars.
18 And his nickname was Srbo. And Crnobrnja told him that he should
19 prepare the vehicle and to start the engine. And the third person was the
21 Q. Do you know where this Crnobrnja -- I'm sorry for my
22 pronunciation -- do you know where he worked?
23 A. Crnobrnja worked as a member of the unit that was located in the
24 factory of a leather produce. And the director was Sulejman Deumic. They
25 made leather and fur items.
1 Q. Do you recall the first name of this person called Crnobrnja --
2 I'm sorry.
3 A. I don't know exactly his first name, but his last name is
4 definitely Crnobrnja. He used to be a waiter, and he was a newcomer to
5 Banja Luka.
6 Q. When you were questioned in the police station about your car, and
7 you told them that it had -- your Mercedes had already been confiscated,
8 what happened then?
9 A. Mr. Samardzija said that he knew about the Mercedes, but he also
10 said that I had a Peugeot car, a luxury car, and I also had three
11 Volkswagen vans and that it was my duty to hand them over as soon as
12 possible for the needs of the Serb army.
13 Q. And you mentioned earlier that you told these people that these
14 vehicles were being used by other persons; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What was their reaction to this?
17 A. Samardzija, unfortunately, shouted at me. And he said, "You're
18 lying. You have all the vehicles." I tried to explain to him that the
19 Peugeot car was driven by my elder brother and that one of the Volkswagen
20 vans --
21 Q. Excuse me. I'm sorry, Witness. Don't mention the name of the
22 other people, because that will -- may reveal your identity. If the Court
23 or Defence want you to name that person, then we can go into private
25 A. Thank you. So what I said was that one vehicle had been sold,
1 that the second vehicle had been destroyed by the machine-gun bursts of
2 Serb soldiers, and the third one was not in working order. But he did not
3 believe me.
4 Q. Sir.
5 A. And already then they started to --
6 Q. Carry on.
7 A. They started to beat me, first on my face and then later all over
8 my body. It was a terrible feeling of helplessness. I was put on a round
9 stool in the middle of this room, and these two people whom they called
10 inspectors, they were standing each on my sides, they flanked me, and any
11 answer of mine that didn't suit them, they would beat me. And the hardest
12 ones to bear was in the -- in the knees and in that area here. And if one
13 of them knocked me to the ground, then the other one would lift me up, and
14 then the other one would do the same for his colleague. It was absolutely
15 horrific. I asked Samardzija to give me protection. I thought he knew
16 me. But no help came.
17 Q. Sir, how long did this beating last?
18 A. For a long time. For a long time.
19 Q. What injuries did you suffer as a result of the beating?
20 A. My teeth were broken, and here I think you can still see the
21 traces of strangulation. I would feel it in my mouth. I would feel the
22 teeth that were broken in my mouth. It was horrible.
23 Q. Sir, just pause there.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: For the record, the witness is pointing to his
1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND:
3 Q. Sir, do you know a person called Jovan Sovilj?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. In 1992, did you know what his occupation was?
6 A. According to him, he was a deputy commander for security in the
7 town. And he was based in Deumici [phoen], in his factory.
8 Q. Did you know who his commander was?
9 A. His commander was Mr. Stevandic. I think his first name was
10 Dusan. Certainly it was Stevandic. He was blond. He was a large man.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can the witness please be shown Prosecution
12 Exhibit 537. This is the document provided in B/C/S with two pages of
14 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
16 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The Defence of General
17 Talic objects to these documents because they do not bear any dates.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm sorry. Before I respond to
19 Madam Fauveau, if this document can be marked Prosecution Exhibit P538.
20 I'm sorry.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Not 537?
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: No. There's been another exhibit premarked 537.
23 In response to Madam Fauveau, this document is undated; however,
24 the Prosecution intend having a witness date this document somewhere
25 between June and October 1992. This document comes -- was seized from the
1 Banja Luka Corps, and it was disclosed to the Defence on the 2nd of
2 August, 2000. The Prosecution intends obtaining a full translation of
3 this document, but at this stage we only have the front cover and page 7
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The Chamber is admitting the document, both in
6 the B/C/S version and in the English version, because the fact that it is
7 undated does not automatically exclude its admissibility in evidence,
8 subject, of course, to further proof which may result in establishing the
9 date for this document, and with the understanding, if there is the need
10 for it --
11 Mr. Ackerman, and Madam Fauveau, this is on the face of it a list
12 of individual members of the group of Light Infantry Brigades. And all it
13 shows is the name and the rank. Is it important for you to -- and the
14 office. Is it important for you to have it completely translated in its
15 entirety, or -- because I understand that there are words which are
16 recurring, for example, pukovnik, and Komandant, and Nacelnik staba
17 [phoen]. If those are translated, that should be enough?
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm really not in a position to do
19 much more than shrug my shoulders at this point because I don't know what
20 it is, I don't know what the Prosecution intends to do with it, I don't
21 know what the Prosecution intends that it stands for or anything.
22 Obviously, I have not been able to read it.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Leave it --
24 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll leave it at that. Chances are I don't have
25 any objection, but I just don't know.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Anyway, Ms. Sutherland, you will consult further
2 with the Defence teams. Should a proper, complete translation of this
3 document be required, then go ahead with it, as you are required to do by
4 the Rules. Otherwise, if there is an indication of the meaning in English
5 and in French of the various porucnik, kapetan, pukovnik, so that we
6 understand what we are looking for -- are looking at, then it should be
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour. We do intend having the
9 entire document translated.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Translated. Yes, thank you.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND:
12 Q. Sir, do you have that document in front of you?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the B/C/S version could be put on -- sorry,
15 the English translation could be put on the ELMO.
16 Q. Could you read the title of the document, please.
17 A. "Overview of individual members of the group of the 4th Banja Luka
18 Light Infantry Brigade."
19 Q. Does it continue? I'm sorry. Can you read the front page, the
20 cover page.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The front page?
23 A. You mean --
24 Q. The front page of the document. Thank you.
25 A. "Military secret. Strictly confidential. Overview of individual
1 members of the -- of the command of the Light Infantry Brigade -- Light
2 Infantry Brigades, brigade commands, battalion commanders, company
3 commanders, and of independent platoons," with the code 01302583. And
4 then there is the initials K.K.
5 Q. Sir, can you just turn to page 7 of that document. Sir, the ERN
6 number on that document is 01302589.
7 A. Yes. Yes, you don't have the page numbers.
8 Q. Can you read the title of that page, please.
9 A. Yes. "Military secret. Strictly confidential. Overview of
10 individual members of the 4th Banja Luka Light Infantry Brigade command."
11 Q. Can you read the name at number -- next to the number 1.
12 A. Number 1, Dusan Stevandic.
13 Q. What is his rank?
14 A. He's a major.
15 Q. And what is his office?
16 A. He's a commander.
17 Q. Can you read the name next to number 4, please.
18 A. Jovan Sovilj.
19 Q. What is his rank?
20 A. This should be sergeant, first class.
21 Q. And what is his office?
22 A. Intelligence and security commander. Intelligence and security
24 Q. Can you also read the name at number 22.
25 A. Yes. Number 22, that's the person, Milorad Crnobrnja, sergeant.
1 He was a commander of the platoon command.
2 Q. This last name that you just read, is that last name the same as
3 the -- one of the people that came with you when your -- that came the day
4 your car was confiscated?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You testified earlier that when they came to confiscate your car,
7 they said that it was for the use of the military.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did they say which unit in particular?
10 A. They said that this was needed for the director of the company
11 that was making military equipment for the Serb army, and he was
12 personally present at that time.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: If that document can be returned to the
16 Q. Sir, I now want to ask you some questions in relation to a murder
17 that you witnessed.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. In 1992. Do you recall when this occurred?
20 A. On the 5th of December, 1992.
21 Q. How are you aware of -- how do you recall the exact date?
22 A. I spoke to the wife of the killed Avdo Softic, and she
23 established the date for me, which was the 5th of December, 1992, and I
24 stand by that date.
25 Q. Where did this murder occur?
1 A. The murder occurred in the immediate vicinity of the house of the
2 murdered, Avdo Softic.
3 Q. Was anyone else killed on that day?
4 A. This happened in the street -- Avdo Gazic Street or Gozic Street.
5 And the person who was killed was Ramiz Zdenac.
6 Q. Can you describe for the Court what happened on that day in
7 relation to that incident.
8 A. Because of the situation that we found ourselves in, we were
9 forced to walk along a side road which we called Stari Put, "old road",
10 and this is where we hid from the main road, so that we wouldn't have any
11 contact with the Serb army. And in order to avoid any unpleasant
13 That night, it was a complete surprise for all of us who found
14 ourselves on that road. There was an armed Serb soldier who passed on
15 that road. It was the first time that one of them used that street. He
16 didn't say hello to us. He didn't greet us, although we knew him. But we
17 were all surprised. We were surprised that he was there. After a few
18 moments, shooting was heard. First there was a short burst and then a
19 long burst. There was panic, and I thought that if the shooting
20 continued, that this was directed at me, because I had been informed
21 before -- several Serbs had told me that I was on the list for
22 elimination. So I lay down alongside a fence. And after a short while, I
23 heard somebody asking for help. Avdo Softic was shouting for help but not
24 to help himself but Ramiz to be helped, and he said about himself, "I am
25 finished." We ran to Ramiz. And at that time when I came round, the
1 shooting had stopped and I saw the murderer, who was walking away in haste
2 from the site. And the late Ramiz started to slide down the fence. Avdo
3 was on the ground on the other side, perhaps a few metres away from him.
4 It was obvious -- it was visible with Ramiz that he could not be helped.
5 There was blood in the chest area. And the only thing that we could hear
6 was the gurgling of a man who was dying. There was terrible panic among
7 us, all of us who were standing nearby. We ran towards them to help them.
8 It was that kind of situation when the words fail you. It is hard to
10 And somebody suggested that we should call -- that was -- that
11 person was Omer Saranic. He had a small Fiat vehicle. And he was asked
12 to take Avdo Softic to the hospital. When we put him in the car, it was
13 obvious that he was finished. In the stomach area and the lower part of
14 his body was all covered in blood, but he was still conscious. He knew
15 and he was able to speak. But when Omer speeded up to the hospital, he
16 died on the way.
17 Q. Sir, you said that you knew the perpetrator. What was his name?
18 A. The man's name was Zeljko Ceko.
19 Q. How did you --
20 A. He lived --
21 Q. Go on.
22 A. He lived in the immediate vicinity of our neighbourhood, maybe a
23 kilometre away. Some people called the area Brda and others Novoselija.
24 Q. What were Avdo and Ramiz wearing, if you recall?
25 A. Ordinary civilian clothes.
1 Q. Were they armed?
2 A. No. I think that in 1992, and later too, a Muslim with weapons
3 would be tantamount to suicide. That is my opinion.
4 Q. Did you see Avdo or Ramiz doing anything to provoke the soldier
5 before he fired?
6 A. I already said that we had passed on to our people instructions as
7 to how they should behave, that they shouldn't provoke anyone, that they
8 shouldn't engage in any disputes or any contacts. And especially in this
9 case, these were two exceptionally quiet, good, and honest men, so that
10 any provocation is out of the question.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Excuse me, Your Honour.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MS. SUTHERLAND:
14 Q. Sir, did you notice what sort of weapon Ceko was wearing?
15 A. Ceko had, in my view, a long rifle, a rifle -- it may have been a
16 light machine-gun. I think it was a rifle or a submachine-gun.
17 Q. To your knowledge, do you know whether any -- whether there have
18 been any proceedings in relation to this incident?
19 A. I inquired everywhere as to what had been done against this
20 criminal; however, all I know is that he was taken in for questioning as
21 he was on leave, allegedly that his punishment was that he had to go to
22 the front, which we, in those days, found unbelievable because he was
23 already at the front. So that I believe to this day and I claim that I
24 saw him after that crime, passing by. He was not sentenced. If going to
25 the front line is punishment, according to them, he had already been
1 punished and not for this particular case.
2 Q. Sir, I now want to turn to another topic and ask you some
3 questions about life in Banja Luka during 1992 for non-Serbs. Can you
4 describe for the Court the atmosphere in Banja Luka at this time.
5 A. I can only do my best. But to really describe the situation of
6 hunger, fear, killings, shooting, and everything else that is not deign of
7 a civilised man, that is what Banja Luka was like. People were left
8 jobless earlier on. All the people who refused to respond to the call-up
9 for mobilisation and who refused to take part in the Serb army were
10 automatically dismissed. People were left jobless, and they needed to
11 feed their families, their children. And as time went by, the situation
12 became worse and worse. People were left without homes. All it took was
13 a Serb fighter to point a finger at an apartment that he wanted for that
14 apartment to become his. Fear.
15 Q. Sir, could you travel freely outside Banja Luka?
16 A. No one could move around freely - I think I said that at the
17 beginning when I mentioned those checkpoints - who did not have the
18 appropriate permit. These were issued at first by local communes and then
19 later by the military department, which meant that all those who were fit
20 to serve either had to go to the front lines or to leave Banja Luka.
21 There was no freedom of movement. Who refused to go to the front line, he
22 actually sentenced himself to detention.
23 Q. When did your -- when did family members -- your family members
24 leave Banja Luka?
25 A. My daughter left in September 1992.
1 Q. Why did she leave?
2 A. At the time, there were stories about terrible crimes being
3 committed by those Serb troops; among other things, rape. I had --
4 Q. How did she leave Banja Luka?
5 A. I was afraid of this rape that was being mentioned all over the
6 place, because my daughter was beautiful and young. Unfortunately, her
7 youth was taken away from her and her work and everything else.
8 Q. Sir, how did your daughter come to leave Banja Luka?
9 A. In Banja Luka -- I can't call them enterprises or firms or what
10 they were that were formed in Banja Luka for the resettlement of non-Serbs
11 from Banja Luka. These were organisations that had their own buses or
12 rented those buses, I don't know exactly, but one such organisation
13 existed in Mejdan, across the River Vrbas, as we would put it.
14 Q. That's the Mejdan settlement.
15 A. The Mejdan settlement, or neighbourhood, where there was an
16 organisation for the transport of non-Serbs. This organisation was headed
17 by a lady called Perka. I don't know what her surname was. Her name was
18 Perka. And daily there would be up to a thousand people there, waiting in
19 line and applying and begging to be taken out. Then there was an
20 organisation with the Red Cross, another one in Budzak. And later, I
21 heard there were others as well.
22 Q. Sir, your son and wife left in April 1993; is that correct?
23 A. Correct, yes.
24 Q. Why didn't you leave with your -- with your son and wife at that
1 A. I will have to admit I was sorry -- of everything I had as a
2 result of very hard work, and I was sorry to leave it.
3 Q. When did you leave Banja Luka?
4 A. Through the mediation of international organisation, the UNHCR, I
5 was taken out on the 15th of November, 1993.
6 Q. Why did you decide to leave Banja Luka at that time?
7 A. It was my assessment that it was high time. And after all the
8 beatings, persecution, and the worst was in September 1993 when among the
9 Serbs, there was some kind of a rebellion in the Serb army and we the
10 people of Banja Luka felt the effects very well.
11 Q. Sir.
12 A. It was an operation that was known as --
13 Q. Can you just finish that sentence.
14 A. "Black September."
15 Q. Were you taken in the red van to the JNA Dom and severely beaten
16 whilst you were there?
17 A. I was taken in a police car to the old JNA Dom, or club. And if
18 you believe me -- and I can swear to that -- from the top of my head to my
19 big toe, I was black.
20 Q. What month was this in 1993, if you recall?
21 A. I already said, September, because the operation was called "Black
23 Q. Sir, I just want to ask you one question about the red van. Was
24 it common knowledge that what this -- what was happening in relation to
25 this van? Was it common knowledge in Banja Luka what was happening to the
2 A. I dare to say today the worst evil of Banja Luka for the non-Serb
3 population was the red van. They destroyed so many young lives, expelled
4 so many people that the red van will go down in history -- in the history
5 of our people. And I believe that we should recount the story to young --
6 our young generations. It is a horror. It is impossible.
7 Q. Sir.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to stop for a couple of minutes.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can I just ask one more question, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: We need to stop for a couple of minutes to have the
11 tape changed, because otherwise whatever you ask will not be recorded
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, you may proceed. Thank you.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. In relation to the red kombi, was it common knowledge in 1992 what
17 was happening to the non-Serbs with this van?
18 A. All the people of Banja Luka, the non-Serbs knew what evil the red
19 van stood for. I've already said once. People fled. One's blood froze.
20 There was so much fear and panic that it is hard to describe.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have decided that I now wish to
22 tender the receipt. If that could be marked as Prosecution Exhibit number
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, there is obviously not going to be
25 any major problems with that, except that I think we have to acknowledge
1 the witness's right to retain the original.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, I agree, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: So what I would suggest is that he lets us -- lets
4 us have that receipt of the Mercedes again; we have it photocopied now,
5 and various copies of it real size and a couple of copies we magnify it a
6 bit, just in case that's needed. And we return the original to him,
7 because I don't know what the position is, but he may require it maybe in
8 civil proceedings in his country. Thank you.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND:
10 Q. Sir, did you ever -- did you ever retain your Mercedes-Benz --
11 regain possession of your Mercedes-Benz?
12 A. I did not, and I believe I will never see it again.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, at this stage I would ask just to go
14 into private session for a short time to ask a few questions in relation
15 to his property and financial situation in 1992.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Any objection?
17 Yes. We'll go into private session, please.
18 [Private session]
12 Page 4441 – redacted – private session
12 Page 4442 – redacted – private session
24 [Open session]
25 JUDGE AGIUS: We are in open session now.
1 So I understand, Ms. Sutherland, that you would like, having
2 concluded with your direct examination of the witness, that you would like
3 to tender documents as exhibits -- some documents related -- relating
4 to --
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, sorry. Just before you move on to
6 that, if Exhibits 539 and 540 could be tendered under seal, please.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And these would be ...? May I have a look at
8 them, please.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Prosecution Exhibit 539 is the witness's name and
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, that's taken for granted. We always admit that
12 under seal.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Prosecution Exhibit 540 is the receipt.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: So the receipt, Madam Registrar, in its original
15 size, is 540.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: These documents, Your Honour, are from a military
17 court file.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: And the exhibit number would be 538.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's go with the disclosure number, one by one,
21 because I think -- is it just one disclosure number or several?
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, it is. I was going to --
23 JUDGE AGIUS: It is.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: I was going to -- I'm sorry. Ms. Gustin has just
25 informed me it should be 537, the exhibit number.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Of this?
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Of this bundle of documents.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: 538 is the Light Brigade document. I intended to
5 give you the date of the document and then give it a specific number. For
6 example, 537.1, 537.2, 537.3.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: And then the English would be the A, and the
9 B/C/S would be the B.
10 Before I do that, Your Honour, these documents relate to the
11 Defence Exhibit tendered by Madam Fauveau, DT7 on the 11th of April, and
12 it gives the Court a complete picture of this incident. So the first
13 document is a record of interview with the accused compiled on the 10th of
14 December, 1992. That's a two-page document. That is 537.1.
15 The next document is dated the 10th of December, 1992 with a
16 number 106/92. It's the cover sheet -- it's a letter enclosing the record
17 of the on-site investigation carried out on the 5th of December, 1992,
18 regarding the murder of Avdo Softic and Ramiz Zdenac. If that can be
19 marked 537.2.
20 The next document, Your Honour, is also dated the 10th of December
21 and has the same number, 106/92. And it's a ruling from the investigating
22 judge. It's a one-page document. If that can be marked 537.3. It's a
23 ruling that the suspect Ceko be remanded in custody for one month.
24 The next document is dated the 12th of December, 1992. It's
25 addressed to the investigating judge Banja Luka military court, request
1 for an investigation to be carried out. It's a two-page document. If
2 that could be marked 537.4.
3 When I'm saying how many pages --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: .4, or.5?
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: .4.
6 When I'm saying the number of pages, Your Honour, I'm referring to
7 the English translations.
8 The next document is dated the 8th of January, 1993. And it's a
9 ruling by the president of the chamber of the Banja Luka military court.
10 It's a ruling to extend the custody for two months of the accused Ceko.
11 It's a two-page document. If that can be marked 537.5. It's also got a
12 number, KV 1/93.
13 The next document is dated the 12th of January, 1993. It's from
14 the military prosecutor, addressed to the military court in Banja Luka,
15 consenting for the release from detention of the accused Ceko as he is
16 immediately going to a war unit. If that document could be marked 537.6.
17 Your Honour, with this document, we are requesting a revised
18 translation because in the top right-hand corner, it says "Military
19 Prosecutor's Office at the Command of the/?2nd//?Krajina/Corps." One can
20 see though, if you compare that document, which is signed by the military
21 prosecutor Spasoje Pisarevic. If that document is looked in conjunction
22 with document 537.4, signed by the same person, it is clear from the
23 English translation on the front of that document that it's the 1st
24 Krajina Corps command, not the 2nd Krajina Corps. We are going to try and
25 provide the Translation Unit with a better copy of the document. And if
1 they cannot work out that it's the 1st Krajina Corps, to put the word
2 "illegible," as opposed to 2nd Krajina Corps.
3 The next document, Your Honour, is dated the 12th of January,
4 1993. Reference number 336/92. And it's a ruling signed by the
5 investigating judge Stupar, releasing Ceko from custody -- immediately
6 releasing him from custody and sending him to his war unit.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm lost. Can you please give me the draft
8 translation number, the number -- yes.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: L0061658 to 1659.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I have it now. Okay.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: If the next --
12 JUDGE AGIUS: So this would be ...?
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: 537.7.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: The next document is dated some seven years
16 later, on the 18th of February, 2000. It has a reference number at the
17 top KIK-151/93. It's a record of hearing. It's a one-page document.
18 I'm sorry, Your Honour. The next document is out of order. I
19 think if we can perhaps put these in order -- in chronological order. I'm
20 sorry. So the document dated the 12th of January, 1993 is marked 537.7.
21 The next document in chronological order --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry about the chronological order,
23 Ms. Sutherland.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Okay.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's move ahead.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Okay. So we've marked 537.8.
2 The next document is dated the 8th of May, 1993, and it's an
3 indictment against the accused Ceko. If that can be marked 537.9.
4 The next document, Your Honour, is undated, but it's a ruling
5 stating that the hearing shall be postponed sine die and ex officio
6 defence counsel shall be appointed. The ERN number -- the translation ERN
7 is 03046252. If that can be marked 537.10.
8 The next document, Your Honour, is dated the 10th of April, 2000,
9 reference number, IK number 151/93. It's a ruling on assignment of
10 counsel. If that can be marked 537.11.
11 The next document is dated the 10th of April, 2000. Reference
12 number also 151/93 MT. If that can be marked 537.12. That's an
13 acknowledgement of receipt from Defence counsel.
14 The next document is dated the 23rd of April, 2001, number
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel slow down, please.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I've just been informed that the
18 document I marked as 537.8, which was a record of hearing, and the page
19 that I just told you a moment ago was undated, which we've marked 537.10,
20 is in fact page 2 of 537.8. So 537.10 then now becomes the ruling on
21 assignment of counsel dated the 10th of April, 2000, reference number
22 151/93. The acknowledgement of receipt by the Defence counsel, also dated
23 the 10th of April, 2000, which was marked 537.12, is now 537.11.
24 The next document is dated the 23rd of April, 2001.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Sutherland, I'm going to stop you. I think I am
1 going to send you -- better return to you all these documents. Please
2 take them home with you and come back tomorrow afternoon first thing with
3 the proper -- because I am getting confused now. I mean, I had them all
4 here, and now I have to take what was numbered 10 and put it behind
5 number -- .8, and 12 becomes 11, and 11 becomes -- and I think -- I think
6 we need to do this. And we will have them admitted tomorrow afternoon. I
7 think it's easier that way, because otherwise there's going to be a
8 confusion. And even I was seeing a lot of resistance on the part of the
10 So I think we'll have to stop here. I thank you, sir. I don't
11 think --
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Just one thing, Your Honour. Do you want -- I
13 will put the documents in chronological order.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: And the so last two pages of transcript will not
16 be --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't worry, Ms. Sutherland. Do it whichever way
18 you like, provided we don't -- we won't have any room for confusion.
19 Sir, you will need to come again tomorrow. You will be
20 cross-examined by the Defence teams tomorrow. In the meantime, you will
21 be taken care of and escorted out of this room. But before that, we will
22 leave ourselves so that they will drop the curtains so that no one can see
23 you going out.
24 Thank you. And good evening, everybody.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
2 at 6.33 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday,
3 the 17th day of April, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.