Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 4798

1 Tuesday, 23 April 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 1.40 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, could we call the case, please.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number

7 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear

9 me in a language that you can understand?

10 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

11 Honours. I can hear you and understand you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

13 General Talic, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a

14 language that you can understand?

15 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

16 I can hear you and understand you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Prosecution.

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, Joanna Korner, assisted by Denise

19 Gustin, case manager. Good afternoon, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.

21 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

22 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm John Ackerman, along with Marela

23 Jevtovic for Mr. Brdjanin. Good afternoon to you.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you.

25 Appearances for General Talic.

Page 4799

1 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my name is

2 Xavier de Roux, and Natasha Fauveau-Ivanovic for General Talic.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Any preliminaries?

4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Your

7 Honours, I'm very sorry but I'm going to have to go back to the question

8 of the 90(H) yesterday.

9 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry. We can hear the counsel for Defence

10 very poorly. Could she perhaps raise the microphone.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Your voice is not reaching the interpreters well

12 enough.

13 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will approach the

14 microphone.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

16 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I was very surprised

17 yesterday when Ms. Korner said -- and I'm going to quote her words in

18 order to avoid interpretation that could be erroneous.

19 [In English] If General Talic, were he to give evidence, were

20 going to say in evidence, "I did not use those words," then it must be put

21 to the witness that he's either mistaken or lying when he says that

22 General Talic used those words.

23 [Interpretation] Unfortunately, yesterday I did not have your

24 decision with me. However, I do know what you wrote in this decision.

25 And now I've got it. And in the paragraph 14, on page 6 -- I believe that

Page 4800

1 is page 7 in the English version -- the Chamber has decided that it is

2 good to underline, however, that there is no absolute rule or general rule

3 that can oblige the Defence counsel to give --

4 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. We do not have the

5 decision in front of us, the English version in front of us. It is --

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] In light of this decision,

7 I would like to ask the Chamber --

8 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. The interpreters, because they don't have

9 the English, are having a great deal of difficulty in following. If you

10 could -- do Your Honours have the motion with you?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Of course not. I wasn't prepared to -- for this. I

12 mean, we were not told, except just before I walked in, that Madam Fauveau

13 was going to raise something related to 90(H). Otherwise, I didn't come

14 -- I don't come here with all the previous decisions and rulings of this

15 Chamber, obviously.

16 MS. KORNER: We've got -- can I hand up our copy?

17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Of course.

18 MS. KORNER: And if Madam Fauveau could read the English version,

19 it's probably easier for the interpreters. Oh, I see you're going to read

20 the English yourself, okay.

21 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will now reread it in

22 English. [In English] "It should be pointed out, however, that there is

23 no absolute or general rule requiring Defence counsel to put to the

24 Prosecution the accused's version of the events or to put the witness on

25 notice of every date the Defence counsel does not accept."

Page 4801

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Now, in the light of this

3 decision, I cannot see why I should be obliged to present to the witness

4 the words of General Talic.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Madam Fauveau, again, once more - and I am

6 not going to reopen the discussion - you are misunderstanding completely

7 the whole concept behind our decision and behind the rationale of Rule

8 90(H). You are not requested to tell the witness what your client is

9 going to testify if he -- if he testifies, or if he decides to testify.

10 If there is something which -- well, I'm not going to say more. I'm

11 sorry, I'm not going to say more. What we had to say, we said it in our

12 decision, which is now subject to appeal and --

13 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not going to tell you or Mr. Ackerman how you

15 should conduct your cross-examination in the light of our decision on

16 90(H). That's up to you.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think all one can -- I see Maitre de

18 Roux is on his feet.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Again, I'm sorry, on one particular matter

20 under discussion, only one counsel will be allowed to make

21 representations, not two. I cannot allow Madam Fauveau to stand up and

22 make submissions and then allow you to stand up to make submissions on the

23 same. Decide amongst yourself who is going to make submissions, but only

24 one counsel will be allowed to make submissions on a specific matter.

25 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are a defence

Page 4802

1 team, and you know that well, and I believe that there are problems of

2 principle. I think that there are problems of principle that are being

3 presented in the procedures before the Tribunal and where it is necessary

4 to intervene.

5 And now, I don't have any problem with your interpretation and

6 with your decision. Your decision is extremely clear. I have a problem

7 with the Prosecution, which is always putting into question the decision

8 that you have issued. As far as I'm concerned, I am perfectly satisfied

9 with the interpretation given by the Tribunal, which seems to me perfectly

10 in accordance with Rule 90(H), and what I'm saying, I'm not saying this

11 for you, Mr. President, I'm saying this for the Prosecution, for

12 Ms. Korner, and paragraph (H) says that --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Stop, stop, Maitre de Roux. Stop. I am not going

14 to allow any further discussion on 90(H). That matter has been decided by

15 this Trial Chamber. There is an appeal pending and it will be decided by

16 the Court of Appeal. In the meantime, what was stated yesterday stays,

17 remains. The matter is not open for further discussion, neither from your

18 side nor from Mr. Ackerman's side nor from Ms. Korner's side, and we

19 proceed with the -- any other further preliminaries that you may have.

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I propose that we conclude with this

21 witness's testimony and then raise the matters before moving on.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you do, I don't know if you are aware of the

23 decision which was handed down by Trial Chamber II in Stakic this morning

24 regarding 7.35.

25 MS. KORNER: In that we can disclose the transcripts, yes.

Page 4803

1 However, the witness is leaving today at 6.00.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. But I wanted to make sure --

3 MS. KORNER: I'm aware of that decision. Thank you very much,

4 Your Honour.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. We may go into closed session now,

6 please.

7 [Closed session]

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Page 4830

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5 --- Recess taken at 3.10 p.m.

6 --- On resuming at 3.30 p.m.

7 [Open session]

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, before we move now to Sanski Most, may

9 I, as it were, deal with a few matters that are connected with still the

10 Banja Luka municipality and then how we see this case going?

11 The first thing, Your Honour, is that we have not yet, in fact,

12 dealt with quite a lot of the documents that are in binder -- volumes 2, 3

13 and 4 of the Banja Luka documents, but I have a witness here and I'm

14 anxious, as I'm sure Your Honours are, to move on.

15 We haven't completed the Banja Luka municipality for a number of

16 reasons. We still have the witnesses from the humanitarian organisation;

17 we still have Colonel Selak, who, although in fact he's going to come in

18 when and if we ever reach Prijedor in this case; there is also the witness

19 who is going to deal with the diary, and I think the translation is more

20 or less now sorted. Just for the record, as Your Honour knows, we, as it

21 were, selected what we thought remained that ought to be translated,

22 excised some of the stuff that seemed to us to be completely irrelevant.

23 The defence know about it, so unless they've got --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Let her finish, Mr. Ackerman.

25 MS. KORNER: So unless they've got in touch with CLSS to say they

Page 4831

1 want more translated than we've indicated, all that will be translated is

2 what we've indicated, but that's the rest of the diary.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, we are working on that process. The

4 list that we got from the Prosecutor was -- it's like the same complaint

5 Ms. Korner has about some of the things I give her. They told us the

6 things that they were going to translate rather than the things that they

7 weren't so we have to now go through day after day after day and find what

8 it is they have not designated for translation to determine whether or not

9 there is material in there we think must be translated. We are engaged in

10 that process.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And we depend entirely on the three of you - on you,

12 Mr. Ackerman, on Maitre de Roux, and on you, Ms. Korner - because you have

13 assistance in having someone who knows the Serbo-Croat language to --

14 while we don't. So we depend entirely on you.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: It doesn't come from me. It comes from people who

16 help me.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly.

18 Yes, Ms. Korner.

19 MS. KORNER: And he will clearly not be called before September of

20 this year, when we are told the diary translation will be complete.

21 So in a sense, and it's -- perhaps it fits in with the general

22 tenor of the case. Banja Luka runs -- will run through the rest of this

23 case.

24 Associated with that, as Your Honours know, because I raised, or

25 associated with Banja Luka, Mr. Dzonlic provided his documents. I cannot

Page 4832

1 resist saying this in open court, in the light of Mr. Ackerman's comment.

2 There were some 13 dismissal letters. Five in terms state that the

3 dismissals are occasioned by the ARK Crisis Staff decision of the 22nd of

4 June, but we suddenly realised that today was the last day. Your Honours

5 said 14 days. They've been here for a week so I'm just saying that they

6 will be given to Mr. Ackerman and to General Talic's team tomorrow.

7 Your Honour, that brings me on to the general progress of the

8 case. Banja Luka we knew would take some time because the witnesses are

9 all, as it were, dealing with (a), the -- particularly Mr. Brdjanin and

10 the events in Banja Luka. And none were specifically crime-base, that is,

11 describing events that happened to them.

12 Your Honour, we, in the interests of, we hope, good management and

13 efficiency, have taken another look at the case over the last few weeks,

14 in particular whether we feel that it is in the interests of good case

15 management, efficiency, and necessity to call all the evidence that we

16 indicated we would call.

17 In particular, we have taken a decision that in relation to five

18 particular municipalities - which I will now name so that the Defence and

19 Your Honours are aware in advance - we are going to drastically reduce the

20 evidence, both in terms of the documents and the witnesses who are

21 listed. Those are as follows, in alphabetical, as opposed to the order

22 which they may be set out in the indictment:

23 First of all, Bosanska Dubica. There will be no more than two

24 witnesses called.

25 If necessary, I can tell Your Honours the -- the numbers of the

Page 4833

1 witnesses, and my learned friends at this stage, though we're some

2 distance off. I'm in the Court's hands on that.

3 In respect of Bosanska Gradiska, one witness.

4 In respect of Donji Vakuf, two witnesses.

5 In respect of Ripac, one witness -- Ripac-Bihac.

6 And in respect of Sipovo, two witnesses only.

7 And Your Honours, I can say the documents for those municipalities

8 don't even -- we will give a full list eventually or before we get there.

9 They will be -- have already been reduced to something less than one

10 binder for all those municipalities.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: And how does this -- because I wasn't expecting

12 this, obviously, and therefore, I do not have the documents before me.

13 How does this compare with what you had intended or told us --

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, in respect of those municipalities, I

15 think we listed something in the region of four or five witnesses plus

16 some Rule 92. It's almost certain we won't even be applying for Rule 92.

17 Effectively, the concentration of this case, we feel, both from the view

18 of the Defence and of Your Honours, should be on the -- what we've listed

19 as the five or six major municipalities.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. What I suggest to you are two things,

21 Ms. Korner. First, I think that the Defence teams would be interested or

22 should be provided with the names of the witnesses that you intend to

23 bring forward in these five --

24 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I can do that right now. I'll

25 just give their numbers.

Page 4834

1 In respect of Dubica, 7.9 and 7.104 will be called.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.

3 MS. KORNER: In respect of Gradiska, 7.126.

4 In respect of Donji Vakuf, 7.159 and 7.156.

5 In respect of Ripac, 7.71.

6 And in respect of Sipovo, 7.176 and 7.116.

7 Your Honour, in addition, it's -- the evidence on Prnjavor will

8 not be much longer than that, but there are -- it's slightly more

9 complicated because of the military aspect to that municipality.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: How would this reflect -- the second thing was this

11 one: How would this reflect on the length of the case for the

12 Prosecution? In other words, would --

13 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, it will certainly knock some time

14 off. We're rather in the hands of the Defence on the length of

15 cross-examination, appreciating that up till now the evidence in chief has

16 normally been -- not always, but normally been longer because of the

17 documents. And as I think I said to Your Honour yesterday, the next

18 witness for Sanski Most will be a very lengthy witness because effectively

19 he can deal with just about every document going, for reasons that Your

20 Honour will hear.

21 After that, the evidence will be much, much shorter in each

22 witness because it relates to a particular crime or set of crimes. And

23 really there is no other witness that for the moment I can bring to mind

24 from any other municipality who's going to be quite as lengthy as this

25 witness is going be.

Page 4835

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Would the Defence like to put in some

2 remarks, comments?

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I'm wondering if Ms. Korner might be able to

4 elaborate just a little bit on how she sees this affecting the time. For

5 instance, does she believe that the Prosecutor's case can be completed

6 during this calendar year? Because it would make a difference to our

7 efforts whether we -- the Prosecutor's case is going to take another nine

8 months or 12 months. Until I know that, it will affect how I have to deal

9 with getting my case ready to go, basically.

10 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, that's the difficulty. I could

11 make an educated guess and say that if cross-examination were limited, the

12 answer is yes, we would finish by the end of this calendar year. It

13 depends on breaks, on events like Mr. Ackerman has described happening in

14 Banja Luka, as far as his team is concerned, adjournments. Were we to sit

15 throughout, between now and the end of the year, with just having the

16 break in the summer, the answer is probably yes, but it's terribly

17 difficult to guess.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And perhaps after the next meeting you have with

19 Mr. Von Hebel, the picture should be even better.

20 MS. KORNER: I don't think, Your Honour, given the meetings this

21 Thursday - and I'm not sure what the point of the meeting is any more,

22 because effectively, we have given Your Honour the information. We

23 provided the chart.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: That's true, but Ms. Korner, we were also a little

25 bit, not exactly sceptical but almost, before the first of such meetings

Page 4836

1 was held, and we all came to the conclusion that it was very positive and

2 I think I would stick to that procedure, because first of all, the

3 informal atmosphere is conducive to your cooperating more with one

4 another, and also in bringing out the problems that besiege this trial

5 from time to time, so ...

6 MS. KORNER: Actually, Your Honour, I would say on balance,

7 despite some of the remarks yesterday and today - and I'm as much to blame

8 as the Defence - we are actually cooperating rather well on the whole.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I think you are; and one other thing I want to

10 make clear, Ms. Korner, is that so far, at least, I cannot in all honesty

11 criticise in the least the Defence in the way they have been conducting

12 their cross-examination. It hasn't been too lengthy, too long, or beyond

13 what one would expect in a case like this, and I think also it has been

14 very professionally conducted so far, and I'm quite happy. Perhaps - and

15 I have been seriously thinking about this over the past months - perhaps I

16 might come to the conclusion that I would start intervening, stepping in,

17 more than I have, both during the examination-in-chief and during

18 cross-examination, to try and eliminate certain questions or curtail on

19 certain questions, especially now that we have -- we are going into the

20 fourth month in this trial and certain facts have already been mentioned

21 by various witnesses and certain other facts made abundantly clear, in the

22 opinion of the Tribunal, which would make it perhaps superfluous to have

23 certain questions repeated and certain answers repeated. So don't be

24 surprised if there comes a time very, very soon, when I will stop you from

25 putting certain questions or say he doesn't need to answer it because the

Page 4837

1 Chamber is satisfied that that answer -- that there is already enough

2 information on -- I will try to do it as least as possible because my

3 belief is the least I interfere, the better it is, but there may come a

4 time when I will have to do that.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we would be most grateful for any

6 indication the Trial Chamber cared to give that they don't require further

7 evidence on any particular topic. And as Your Honour says, if Your Honour

8 simply steps in and makes that clear, then we would be very grateful.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

10 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honour, there are still a few couple of

11 matters. The first is - I just go back to it - Your Honour did say you

12 might be able to tell us about May the 17th.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I am able to tell you. I discussed it today.

14 I don't think I -- we have the option. It was made abundantly clear to me

15 that I'm expected to stick by the decision that has been taken by the

16 bureau.

17 MS. KORNER: No breaking of ranks?

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. So there won't be any sitting on the 17th

19 of May.

20 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour. That's very

21 helpful from the point of view of witnesses.

22 Your Honour, the only other thing is in respect of the Sanski Most

23 Rule 92 application. I don't say it's particularly urgent, but I think

24 Your Honour said you were expecting to give a ruling at some stage in the

25 near future.

Page 4838

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I'm just looking for -- yes. We will -- and I

2 don't have the document in front of me at the moment, Ms. Korner, but we

3 are definitely looking into that and we'll have it decided -- I don't know

4 where I put it. We will have it decided in due course.

5 MS. KORNER: Yes. Well, I'm grateful to Your Honour. Just we did

6 have a request -- we made an error in saying that one witness supported

7 another. And we've supplied -- or we were going to supply the statement

8 today of the witness whose evidence the Rule 92 one supports.

9 Your Honour, that's all I have to raise, unless there are any

10 matters that Your Honour would wish to raise before we turn --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The only thing I wanted to raise was this: I

12 found here -- I was given today a whole bundle of documents --

13 MS. KORNER: Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- plus two more documents which I understand are to

15 replace two other documents with the same number that were inserted in our

16 Banja Luka --

17 MS. KORNER: I gather, there was an error. Yes.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: -- the Sanski Most binders. That is -- okay. That

19 is point taken.

20 These others, this whole bundle, is this an extra --

21 MS. KORNER: Yes.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: This is an extra binder, no?

23 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour, these are extra documents that the

24 witness -- were attached to his statement effectively but weren't

25 contained in the Banja Luka -- I'm doing it now -- Sanski Most binders.

Page 4839

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And may I ask you if these were all - without

2 exception, in other words - included in the document that Mr. Inayat

3 produced in the very beginning of this trial?

4 MS. KORNER: No. These are documents that the witness -- the

5 witness himself produced. Although, as Your Honours are going to hear,

6 this particular witness is in fact the source of a number of documents

7 that are in the Sanski Most binder. But in addition to that, when he was

8 seen on the four or five different occasions, he himself produced extra

9 documents which didn't go into the Sanski Most binders. So those are on

10 top.

11 Now, Your Honours, I should tell you I think some of them are a

12 bundle of exhumation reports. He conducted them. Your Honour, although I

13 wanted them all produced physically - because you never know when they may

14 not become important - I'm only going to refer to selected parts of them

15 with the witness as examples.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think -- I think it will become -- I'm

18 sorry, in a sense it almost becomes simpler if we hand them out at the

19 time the witness is going to refer to them rather than giving them all to

20 Your Honours in advance. But --

21 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I don't -- I don't have a problem with that.

22 The only thing I want to make sure of is that the -- that the Defence have

23 been given these documents, which I suppose they have.

24 MS. KORNER: They got them with the statements, Your Honour, or

25 through other disclosure.

Page 4840

1 JUDGE AGIUS: And that there are no translation problems.

2 MS. KORNER: Not as far as I'm aware. I think some were disclosed

3 last Friday. But unless I'm told differently, I don't think there are any

4 translation problems.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: I think we got some documents within the last few

7 days -- maybe the ones last Friday, the ones that she's talking about --

8 that were B/C/S only. We haven't got any English translations of any of

9 those.

10 MS. KORNER: Yes. Some are -- some are just pure lists of names,

11 which we didn't bother to translate.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Those are -- and if that's all there is, I don't

13 have any problem.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And in any case, as I understand, they need not

15 necessarily be documents that we will be making use of.

16 MS. KORNER: No. In particular, the list of names --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, the list of names is easy. It's not the

18 problem.

19 MS. KORNER: Well, exactly. All the exhumation -- all the earlier

20 stuff, which is the bulk of it, has been -- or a sample, at least, has

21 been translated.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Ms. Korner.

23 And I thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

24 MR. ACKERMAN: Since I haven't seen the pile of documents you've

25 been handed, it's difficult for me to tell you whether or not I have them.

Page 4841

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Well, what I would invite you to do is that if

2 there are problems, Mr. Ackerman, please let me know in good time.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: My assumption is that we have them. But the only

4 way I could really be certain is if somebody would hand me a pile of them

5 and I would spend, you know, a couple of hours going through them. But I

6 think we have them all.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you.

8 So can we bring the witness in now?

9 MS. KORNER: Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please, Mr. Adil Draganovic.

11 MS. KORNER: It's actually Judge Draganovic.

12 MR. ACKERMAN: Is he a current judge?

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, he is a current judge. He was also President

14 of the Tribunal before he was ...

15 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour, could I ask when the next break is

16 going to be, so I know when --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The next break will be at 4.35 -- sorry, at 4.20.

18 MS. KORNER: 4.20.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. More or less.

20 I think this is a better system, having a 15-minute break every

21 hour and 15 minutes rather than a break after two hours, because I keep my

22 eyes wide open during the -- during the sitting and try to notice what --

23 what's going on, and apart from the interpreters, it's also the

24 stenographers having to sit down two solid hours going that and -- I -- it

25 must be very tiring. So I think we'll stick to the hour and 15 minutes

Page 4842

1 and then a pause for 15 minutes.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon, Judge.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: And welcome to this Tribunal.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: The gentleman standing next to you is going to hand

8 you a specimen solemn declaration to speak the truth, the whole truth, and

9 nothing but the truth, and -- which you are kindly asked to make in this

10 courtroom before you start your testimony.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 WITNESS: ADIL DRAGANOVIC

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, and you may sit down.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Sir, you being a judge, I need hardly explain the

18 routine, the procedure here.

19 We are the Chamber. I'm the Presiding Judge. To my right is

20 Judge Janu from the Czech Republic, and to my left is Judge Taya from

21 Japan.

22 And it's more or less the procedure is similar to any other court

23 of criminal jurisdiction. You will be asked questions first by the

24 Prosecutor, who is to your right, and after that, the two teams, two

25 Defence teams - one for Mr. Brdjanin, which is the one nearest to you, and

Page 4843

1 followed by the Defence team for General Talic - will cross-examine you.

2 The persons you see in front obviously are the registry.

3 Ms. Korner will commence her examination-in-chief now. Should at

4 any time -- should you at any time like to have a break, apart from the

5 breaks that we will be having in the course of normality, please just let

6 me know. Thank you.

7 MS. KORNER: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Examined by Ms. Korner:

9 Q. Sir, is your name Adil Draganovic?

10 A. That's right.

11 Q. And were you born on the 30th of August, 1952?

12 A. Yes, I was.

13 Q. And are you a Muslim by ethnicity, now called Bosniak?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. And are you still at the moment the Court President, and therefore

16 Judge, at the municipal court in Sanski Most?

17 A. Yes, I am.

18 Q. And were you originally appointed to that position in 1988?

19 A. Yes, I was.

20 Q. You, as we are going to hear, were arrested in May of 1992, and

21 kept in the Manjaca prison camp after a short period in the police

22 station, until December of 1992?

23 A. Yes, I was arrested, that's right.

24 Q. And after December, 1992, did you leave the country?

25 A. Yes, I did.

Page 4844

1 Q. And did you return to Sanski Most after it had been retaken by the

2 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina in October of 1995?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. And did you resume, eventually, your position in the court as the

5 President?

6 A. Yes, I did return, yes.

7 Q. All right. Before I come to the various matters which you're

8 going to deal with, I think it's right that you have in total made a

9 number - one, two, three, four - four -- five statements to the Office of

10 the Prosecutor. You probably don't remember.

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. And were you given an opportunity, before coming into Court, to

13 refresh your memory from the contents of these statements?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. And in addition, I think you've had a chance to look at some, if

16 not all, of the documents that relate to the Sanski Most area?

17 A. Yes, I did.

18 Q. And I just want to make the position clear. I think this is

19 right: You yourself were present in Sanski Most until June of 1992, when

20 you were transported to Manjaca; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that's correct, until the 17th of June, 1992.

22 Q. But after your return to Sanski Most in 1995, effectively, you

23 were in charge of the investigations into possible human rights violations

24 and crimes that had been committed in Sanski Most?

25 A. That's right.

Page 4845

1 Q. And by "within Sanski Most," I mean also within the municipality,

2 as opposed to just the town.

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. And so as a result, have you seen a number of documents and, I

5 suppose items is the way of describing it, as a result of your

6 investigations?

7 A. Yes, I did. I saw many documents that I believe to be evidence

8 for the International Tribunal for War Crimes.

9 Q. I just want to make it clear to the Trial Chamber the sources of

10 the evidence you're going to give. I think it's effectively three:

11 Firstly, events which you witnessed yourself and were present at that

12 time; is that correct?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. Secondly, matters that people told you about that had happened

15 after your arrest and whilst you were in Manjaca?

16 A. That's correct.

17 Q. And then thirdly, matters that have come to your attention as a

18 result of the investigations that you carried out after the Dayton

19 Accords?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. And just so that you understand, so it's important that when you

22 give evidence about matters, you make it clear how you know about these

23 matters and how you've come across various documents.

24 A. Yes, I will say it.

25 Q. And I think that you yourself submitted a number of documents and

Page 4846

1 statements to the Office of the Prosecutor at this Tribunal?

2 A. Yes, I did.

3 Q. And have you worked in liaison with the office of AID, both in

4 Sanski Most and in Sarajevo?

5 A. Yes. I cooperated with the AID.

6 Q. And then finally, I think, as part of your investigations, you

7 were present at, and dealt with reports on, exhumations of effectively

8 mass graves that were discovered really from late 1995 onwards?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. And finally, before we begin on events, I forgot to mention you

11 also, I think, made a number of statements to the German authorities in

12 connection with proposed prosecutions that they were going to mount?

13 A. Yes. I gave a number of statements.

14 Q. Can we just deal, then, sir, first of all, Judge, very briefly,

15 with your background. I think that you went to Sarajevo University and

16 studied law, graduating in 1975?

17 A. That's right, yes.

18 Q. After graduation, I think you worked for a small company and then

19 did your mandatory military service in 1977?

20 A. Yes. I served my military service from 1977 to 1978 in Pristina.

21 Q. Did you actually serve with an anti-aircraft artillery unit of the

22 JNA?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. And as a result of your service, did you become familiar with the

25 weapons that were used by the JNA?

Page 4847

1 A. Well, yes, I did.

2 Q. I'm not suggesting an expert, just familiar.

3 A. As much as I could, of course.

4 Q. Now, subsequently, did you go to Bosanska Dubica and work as an

5 assistant director to the local hospital for about four years?

6 A. Yes, I did.

7 Q. Then in Dubica, did you in fact become a judge and work with the

8 municipal court there for about six years?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Then in 1987, were you offered the opportunity to become a judge

11 in the Sanski Most court?

12 A. Yes, I was.

13 Q. And --

14 A. I mean, it's correct. Yes.

15 Q. And after you'd been there for about a year, were you designated

16 as the court President?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. And as a result of that appointment, apart from your work within

19 the court system itself, did you also deal with government and other

20 official bodies of power and people in authority generally in the

21 municipality?

22 A. Yes. I did some work in the municipality as an expert member of a

23 municipal committee.

24 Q. Now, before we go any further, I'd like you to be shown, please,

25 and the Court, perhaps, to remind ourselves of where Sanski Most lies.

Page 4848

1 Could you be shown --

2 MS. KORNER: I cannot remember whether we produced it, but it's

3 the map of the Krajina area. Whether it has an exhibit number ...

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, yes.

5 MS. KORNER: Yes. P446.1, I'm told it is.

6 And if the witness could have that.

7 Q. Sir, if we just look at that -- the map, we see that the

8 municipality of Prijedor lies to the north-eastish, I suppose, Banja Luka

9 to the east, and then Kljuc to the south --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: I suppose, Ms. Korner, I suppose that if there is an

11 extra copy which could be put on the ELMO, the video recording and

12 everything would make more sense.

13 MS. KORNER: Yes.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

15 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. I didn't realise Your Honours didn't have

16 it there.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: The problem is not us having it or not having it.

18 Since you are making specific references to the map, I suppose that if

19 there is one on the ELMO, it can be captured on the video recording of the

20 sitting.

21 MS. KORNER: Yes. Yes, thank you. Thank you very much, Your

22 Honour. I keep forgetting there's going to be a video recording.

23 Q. Yes. We were saying -- I was saying, rather, Kljuc to the

24 south -- sorry, west, and then Petrovac to the south, Krupa, Novi, and

25 then Prijedor. So in fact Sanski Most now is in the centre of this

Page 4849

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 4850

1 particular area.

2 You can see marked on the map, sir, the various towns and

3 villages, indicating whether they were largely, if not completely, either

4 containing persons of Serb ethnicity or of Muslim or Croat. And would you

5 agree that's -- that's roughly an accurate depiction? You can see the

6 Muslim are in green; the Serb in blue, I think; and Croat in orange.

7 A. Yes, that's correct. Yes, I can see it on the map.

8 Q. How far away was the town of Sanski Most from Prijedor town?

9 A. Sanski Most is 28 kilometres away from Prijedor, and Prijedor is

10 located to the north in relation to the Sanski Most municipality.

11 Q. Yes. Now, could you, while we're on the subject of maps, please

12 be shown another map, this time the one -- and I think this is a new

13 exhibit -- of the town of Sanski Most.

14 MS. KORNER: And it's one of the ones that we've prepared with

15 photographs, Your Honour, of various places. Your Honour, I don't think

16 this has been allocated an exhibit number yet, so -- we premarked the

17 Sanski Most binders. So that will be 600 --

18 Well, Your Honour, what we did -- we still have some spare numbers

19 going between 500 and whatever -- 47.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, exactly. That's what I understood.

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I was wondering whether it wouldn't be

22 easier to keep Sanski Most starting at 600 and move upwards, even though

23 there's some missing exhibit numbers, if you see what I mean. So I'm

24 going to ask if we can -- all right. It may not be the clearest

25 explanation -- if we can be given -- yeah.

Page 4851

1 Anyhow, we'll be given the number in a moment.

2 Q. Now, sir, can you look at this map.

3 MS. KORNER: And perhaps -- yes, that's been put on the ELMO.

4 Thank you.

5 Q. Does that show a map of the town of Sanski Most, a plan?

6 A. Yes, this is a map of the town of Sanski Most with the immediate

7 surroundings.

8 Q. Now, we can see --

9 MS. KORNER: And again, Your Honours, I should indicate these

10 photographs were taken last year, so they're not the same -- I'm sorry, it

11 isn't as it was in 1992.

12 Q. First of all, can we look at photograph number 7, which is the

13 Mahala part of Sanski Most. Was that where you lived?

14 A. Yes, that's right. That's where my house is, where I lived, and

15 where I still live today.

16 Q. And can we look at the photograph that was taken, as I say, last

17 year. In 1992 -- sorry, perhaps the -- we may get some of the photographs

18 brought in -- but did Mahala look much as it does in that photograph, it

19 being rebuilt?

20 A. As far as the number of houses is concerned, or private houses,

21 family houses, I think that the number is identical as in 1992. In 1992,

22 the houses, more than 80 per cent of them were set on fire, destroyed,

23 razed to the ground.

24 Q. Right.

25 A. But after --

Page 4852

1 Q. Yes. But it was rebuilt, as -- it was rebuilt, as I think we can

2 see.

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. Now, that area of Sanski Most - we are going to hear about the

5 various ethnicities in a moment - was it mixed ethnicity or just one

6 particular ethnicity that lived there?

7 A. In Sanski Most, several ethnicities lived; Muslims, Serbs, Croats,

8 and there were other ethnicities as well. In total, the municipality had

9 about 61.000 inhabitants.

10 Q. And in the settlement or the area of Mahala, was that mixed or was

11 it one particular ethnicity?

12 A. In Mahala, Mahala was inhabited exclusively by Muslims, 100 per

13 cent Muslims.

14 Q. While we are looking at the map, then, were there any areas in

15 Sanski Most that were, for example, entirely Serb?

16 A. Yes, there were such areas. For instance, the locality of Dabar,

17 Kruhari, where there were also several Croatian houses.

18 Q. All right. I think we will have to get -- there is a third map

19 but I'll come back to that one. Can we just look at, please, some of the

20 areas that have been photographed? We'll leave out photograph number 1

21 for the time being because that will become more relevant when you've told

22 us what happened. The SUP, the police station, did that look roughly the

23 same in 1992 as we can see in this photograph?

24 A. Yes. This is the building of SUP. It was also the building of

25 the Secretariat for People's Defence in 1992, and today it looks the same

Page 4853

1 as it did in 1992.

2 Q. And then again, I think we'll leave the other photographs. All

3 right, could you be handed now, finally, a third map which shows Sanski

4 Most with the places that you've just mentioned.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman?

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Could we get an exhibit number on this so that it

7 is reflected in the transcript?

8 MS. KORNER: Quite right. Could that be made Prosecutor's Exhibit

9 757, please?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner, and thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

11 MS. KORNER: In fact, Your Honour, could that be made 757A and

12 then the next map B so we keep the maps together, the one I'm about to

13 hand out.

14 MR. ACKERMAN: We are using A and B to designate English and

15 B/C/S, so we cannot do that.

16 MS. KORNER: All right, yes, 1.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: 757.1.

18 MS. KORNER: And the next one will be 757.2. I'm sorry, Your

19 Honour, I think Your Honour said -- no.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we will break --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, we need to break now. We will give this map

23 its number, exhibit number.

24 MS. KORNER: 757.2.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And we will break for 15 minutes.

Page 4854

1 We are going to have a short break, sir, and you will continue

2 with your evidence immediately after.

3 --- Recess taken at 4.23 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 4.43 p.m.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it may be -- I mean, this is not a

6 protected witness. In future, if the witness is in court before Your

7 Honours come in -- because the witness room is quite a long way away.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I think you're right, Ms. Korner.

9 MS. KORNER:

10 Q. Judge, we were about to look at the map of the Sanski Most area

11 itself. You talked about areas that were effectively Serb areas. And can

12 we see those marked with purple -- in purple?

13 A. Yes, I see this map of the Sanski Most municipality. I see that

14 in green are areas principally inhabited by Muslims. I also see that red

15 indicates some areas with the predominant Croat population, apart from

16 Poljak, which had a mixed population, Muslims, Croats, and Serbs.

17 Q. And --

18 A. I also -- excuse me. I also note that blue indicates places with

19 a predominant Serb population, although in some of these areas, the

20 inhabitants were of mixed origin, such as Kljevci, Budimlic-Japra.

21 Kasapnica is an area where there were no Serbs. In other such places,

22 Serbs were the predominant population. So this is my answer.

23 Q. Did you just indicate the one -- it may be well if you'd indicate

24 on the ELMO with a pointer. Which was the one you say there were no

25 Serbs?

Page 4855

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, if he is going to indicate on the ELMO,

2 please perhaps you could either move the ELMO nearer to him, if you can.

3 I don't -- and --

4 And Judge, please -- exactly.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I have said, the place called

6 Kasapnica, at which I'm pointing now. As I have said, Badimlic-Japra --

7 where Muslims and Serbs both lived. Some parts of Badimlic-Japra were

8 inhabited by Muslims and some others by Serbs. Poljak - and I'm pointing

9 at it now - had a mixed population of Muslims, Croats, and Serbs.

10 MS. KORNER:

11 Q. So you're saying, are you -- would you say that the Croats were

12 larger than the other two ethnicities in Poljak?

13 A. Well, no, I don't think I'd say that.

14 Q. Okay. So that -- in that case, that's misleading, I think.

15 And could we go back to Kasapnica. Are you saying that there were

16 no Serbs there? It wasn't a Serb village, as far as you were concerned?

17 A. Kasapnica was an area which the Croat population abandoned.

18 Q. The Croat population.

19 A. As far as I know.

20 I'd also like to add something as regards Poljak. I am not sure,

21 because this is a suburban street which stretches as far as Sasina, so it

22 is possible that there is a majority Croat population there.

23 Q. All right. Thank you, sir. We'll do a double-check.

24 MS. KORNER: And Your Honour -- Your Honours, I think it's right

25 that we just double-check those two places. I think we took that from

Page 4856

1 statistics, but ...

2 JUDGE AGIUS: And also what I haven't really grasped is -- or

3 understood is which town or village that he referred to before, where

4 according to the witness there were absolutely no Serb population at all,

5 because you seem to have understood like I did initially, that it was

6 Kasapnica, but obviously it isn't. So perhaps the witness could tell us

7 which village he was referring to earlier on in his evidence -- his

8 testimony where there were no Serbs.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could you please repeat

10 your question? Do you mean all the areas in the municipality of Sanski

11 Most where there were no Serbs?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: No, sir. There was a point during your testimony

13 where you were mentioning examples of towns and villages where there was

14 either a predominance of one ethnicity or where there was a mixed

15 community, and you also mentioned one village where, according to you,

16 there were no Serbs at all. Which was that village?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kasapnica.

18 MS. KORNER: I think we both understood that is correct, Your

19 Honour, but we will check both those ourselves.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Because this one is being marked as predominantly

21 Serb. Okay. I thank you, sir.

22 MS. KORNER:

23 Q. As we can see - and we'll come to the exact figures for Sanski

24 Most municipality later - there was a slight majority of Muslims within

25 the municipality itself; is that correct?

Page 4857

1 A. In the Sanski Most municipality, in -- according to the census of

2 1991, there were 47 per cent of Muslims, Serbs accounted for 41 per cent,

3 and the Croat population accounted for 8 per cent.

4 Q. All right. You can put the map aside now, thank you very much.

5 Now, I want to come to the political events, really nationwide and within

6 Sanski Most in particular. I think within Sanski Most, were you elected

7 as the first president of the commission for the multi-party elections

8 which took place in November of 1990?

9 A. Yes. That is right. I was the chairman of the municipal election

10 commission in Sanski Most, elected to conduct the first multi-party

11 elections in the municipality of Sanski Most.

12 Q. And then later on, were you also responsible for the legal

13 administration of the referendum in respect of independence for Bosnia?

14 A. Yes. The municipal election commission was duty-bound to organise

15 and conduct the referendum in conformity with statute.

16 Q. Thank you. I want to deal, though, with the results of the 1990

17 elections. Did you see the results of the elections as published in the

18 Official Gazette of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

19 A. I did. I saw them published, and these results were published on

20 the basis of the report.

21 Q. I'm going to ask you -- yes, I'm sorry, of the report what? That

22 was submitted from each municipality?

23 A. I didn't understand the question.

24 Q. All right. I think we can move on. I want to you look at,

25 however, please, the Official Gazette for the result of the elections.

Page 4858

1 MS. KORNER: I think Your Honour has already got a copy, and if --

2 it's not been made an exhibit yet, so that could be handed out to the

3 witness in B/C/S. Your Honours, we have only -- the whole Gazette was

4 translated but we've only copied the parts that are relevant to this

5 case. Could that be made, then, Prosecutor's Exhibit 758, please?

6 I think everybody else has got it, everybody else has got it,

7 Mr. Usher. The defence have got it, unless they want another copy.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: This is 758?

9 MS. KORNER: 8, yes, and could the witness have the B/C/S copy,

10 please. It should be at the back.

11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

12 MS. KORNER:

13 Q. Is that a photocopy of the Official Gazette which you've had a

14 chance to look at, I think, in advance?

15 A. Yes, it is. It is the Official Gazette of the Socialist Republic

16 of Bosnia-Herzegovina which published the results.

17 Q. I want to do the first part fairly quickly. There were, in fact,

18 I think, seven constituencies.

19 A. That is correct, and we were a part of the Banja Luka

20 constituency.

21 Q. And we can see the parties that stood for these elections, or

22 stood in these elections. The HDZ -- first of all, let's take it in

23 order, the Democratic Social Alliance of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Banja Luka;

24 the HDZ, the Croatian Democratic Union; the SDA, the Party of Democratic

25 Action; then the Alliance of the Reform Forces of Yugoslavia, I think that

Page 4859

1 was generally known as the Reform Party; something called the Democratic

2 Alliance; and then the SDS. The other constituencies were Bihac, Doboj,

3 Mostar and, in fact, Sarajevo and Tuzla and Zenica.

4 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't think we bothered to copy that

5 but those were the seven.

6 Q. Could we then come, please, to the page which is our page 4 of the

7 translation where we look at the deputies elected in the constituencies?

8 If you could find Banja Luka, sir -- sorry, I can't tell you what page

9 it's on. I think it's under item 3; is that correct? You have that, sir?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Okay. The Banja Luka constituency, again, as you say, it included

12 Sanski Most. We can see just quickly, though, number 2 from Bosanska

13 Gradiska, the candidate for the HDZ was somebody called Marijan Vistica.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I'm referring to that because that's --

15 the witness yesterday referred to him as the gentleman -- or the day

16 before, or Friday -- as the man he met -- or the man, sorry, who was

17 imprisoned.

18 Then under the list of the SDS, Kupresanin, Kasagic, and Srlic --

19 I'm sorry, that's Prijedor, Banja Luka.

20 Over the page -- I'm sorry. And I missed out -- I beg your

21 pardon, sir. For Sanski Most, we can see somebody called Rasema Mehadzic?

22 A. Mehadzic. Yes, she represented the SDA. There is also Nedeljko

23 Rasula.

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. Representing the SDS.

Page 4860

1 Q. And then if we go to the next page, we can see again under "Banja

2 Luka," and number 11 there was Andjelko Grahovac.

3 MS. KORNER: Again, Your Honours, that's a name that's come up.

4 Q. Can we move, then, please, from that to -- we left in all the

5 constituencies. If we go through that, to next page, page 9, which shows

6 the national structure of the population of the Socialist Republic of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, according to the 1981 census.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman and Maitre de Roux, are these figures

9 in any way contested by the Defence?

10 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think so, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Maitre de Roux?

12 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] No, Mr. President.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... as well

14 subject, of course, to the right of Defence counsel later on to ask

15 questions -- put questions to the witness on cross-examination.

16 MS. KORNER: Yes. Well, then can we go -- I think it's the names

17 that I need Your Honours to look at.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, the names, I understand --

19 MS. KORNER: Yeah, not the statistics.

20 Q. Could we go, then, please, to page 11. And, sir, could you find

21 the constituency of Banja Luka -- of the municipality of Banja Luka. It

22 is the results of the elections by constituency.

23 Have you found that? No, not quite yet, sir. It should be, I

24 think -- it should start on the page with the number at the top 00497409.

25 At least, I hope -- or the one before that.

Page 4861

1 MS. KORNER: I'm going to ask for assistance from --

2 Q. Yes. You've found it. I'm grateful, sir.

3 A. Yes, I've found it. Yes.

4 Q. If you look at the municipality of the constituency of Banja Luka,

5 we can see there the candidates for the SDS; that's Nikola Erceg. Then

6 the Reform party; the HDZ, Dr. Kozic; and then for the SR BH, SDP, the

7 Democratic Socialist Alliance, Dzevad Osmancevic. And we can see that in

8 fact the deputy elected was Nikola Erceg.

9 A. Yes. That's right.

10 Q. Could we then -- could we move, then, please, to the next page,

11 Bosanska Dubica.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm doing all of these so we don't have

13 to go back to them.

14 A. Dubica.

15 Q. Dubica. Do we see there that the SDS candidate, Mr. Slobodan

16 Bijelic was elected?

17 A. Under 5? Yes, he was elected.

18 Q. Okay. Could we then go to Gradiska.

19 A. Yes, we can do that.

20 Q. And there we see that a Serb named Grbic was elected?

21 And the following constituency, Bosanska Krupa. Suad Alibegovic,

22 from the SDA party, was elected.

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. Then if we go to the next one, Bosanski Novi, number 10 -- or the

25 one after the next one. I'm sorry. Number 10, Bosanski Novi. A Serb was

Page 4862

1 elected named Gakovic.

2 Petrovac, number 11. Again a Serb, Dragan Milanovic, was

3 elected.

4 A. That's correct. Under number 4.

5 Q. That's right. Then could we go to the next municipality -- we've

6 missed some out. Sir, if you could go to -- I'm sorry. Just one moment.

7 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honour. I may have missed it. Yes.

8 Q. Yes. We've got -- the next one is Sarajevo. And I don't --

9 although I've actually left it in, I don't think we need that, that I've

10 copied.

11 If we look, however, at the next page, page 19. And if we come to

12 Celinac, where we -- there we can see that in fact there were only -- the

13 only people stood for election there were both Serbs, one for the SDS, one

14 for the SDP, Democratic Socialist Alliance. And as we can see,

15 Mr. Brdjanin was elected.

16 If we go to the next page, Donji Vakuf, to the bottom of that

17 page, number 27. We can see that Samir -- can you just tell us who was

18 elected, so I get the pronunciation right.

19 A. In Donji Vakuf constituency?

20 Q. Yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: We have a problem here, Ms. Korner.

22 MS. KORNER: You don't have it?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: No. Because obviously if -- if you hadn't made a --

24 or not a mistake, but if you hadn't mentioned the name that you

25 mentioned --

Page 4863

1 MS. KORNER: Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: -- I wouldn't have noticed.

3 But actually, after page 20, at the bottom of which there is the

4 constituency of the municipality of Donji Vakuf --

5 MS. KORNER: We've missed out the next page.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: -- we missed -- at least, I missed the next eight

7 pages.

8 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour would. But you should have page

9 21. And we then go from 21 to 29.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: No, I don't have page 21. I have page 29.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes. I'm sorry, it's my fault. I'll add that in.

12 When I was selecting the pages for copy, I obviously made a mistake. But

13 anyhow, perhaps the witness can just tell us.

14 Q. A gentleman by the name of Samir Sutkovic was elected in Donji

15 Vakuf?

16 A. Samir Sutkovic.

17 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour --

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Samir?

19 MS. KORNER: Sutkovic.

20 Your Honour, that's "S" with the --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm making a correction. Samir

22 Sutkovic. And he was representing the SDA.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we'll provide the extra page.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Korner.

25 MS. KORNER: Okay. We should, in everybody's bundle, go to page

Page 4864

1 29.

2 Q. And sir, can you find Kljuc? And do we see that a Serb called

3 Rajko Kalabic was elected?

4 A. I have found Kljuc constituency, Rajko Kalabic, candidate of the

5 Serb Democratic Party, and he was elected.

6 Q. And if we go to the next page, Kotor Varos, there a Serb,

7 Nedjeljko Djekanovic, was elected?

8 A. That's right, under 2, candidate of the Serb Democratic Party.

9 Q. Then can we go, sir -- if you could find Prijedor, which is on our

10 page 38 -- 39, I'm sorry. There, I think, Mevludin Sejmenovic, a Muslim

11 from Trnopolje, was elected on behalf of the SDA? That's number 74, sir,

12 on the list.

13 A. Just a moment. Could you help me, please?

14 MR. ACKERMAN: Page 1257, if you look at the page numbers in the

15 upper, right-hand corner.

16 MS. KORNER:

17 Q. It's -- the big number is 00497414.

18 A. [In English] Thank you. [Interpretation] Prijedor constituency,

19 that's right, Stojan Vracar.

20 Q. I think you'll find, sir, that it was Mevludin Sejmenovic who was

21 elected. I agree it's very difficult to read on the photocopy.

22 A. Yes, yes, that's right. It's barely legible, Sejmenovic, that's

23 right, yes, and Marko Pavic.

24 Q. Yes, they stood, and Mr. Sejmenovic won in the second round. Then

25 could we look at the next constituency?

Page 4865

1 A. Sejmenovic, yes, you're right.

2 Q. And then if we look at the next constituency, Prnjavor, a Serb

3 named Vidic was elected?

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. And then --

6 A. Dobrivoje Vidic.

7 Q. Can we come to your constituency, please, Sanski Most, which is

8 number 80. I imagine, sir, it should be fairly close to Prnjavor.

9 A. Yes. I see it. So this is constituency 80.

10 Q. And again, I think here there was a -- what we call a runoff vote

11 with Nedjeljko Rasula from the SDS, and Hivzo Hodzic?

12 A. Yes, that's right. Hivzo Hodzic, and Nedjeljko Rasula was

13 elected, and he stood for the Serb Democratic Party.

14 Q. And then if we turn over -- sorry, if you could find, sir, we go

15 to page 44 next, where we come to Sipovo and Teslic.

16 A. Constituency 79, municipality of Sipovo.

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter corrects herself, 89.

18 Municipality of Sipovo.

19 A. Stevan Medic was elected.

20 Q. And the next constituency, Teslic?

21 A. Constituency number 90, municipality of Teslic.

22 Q. And again I think a Serb was elected?

23 A. Bosko Misic, that's right, from Teslic, was elected.

24 Q. Yes. Thank you very much, sir. In fact, I think we appear to

25 have made a mistake again on the copying, so there is one further thing I

Page 4866

1 want us to look at.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm going to ask -- this is my error

3 again. I've obviously made a mistake on the copying but there is some

4 further pages at the end.

5 Q. Could you find finally, sir - just to give the evidence and then

6 you can put the document away - near the end, it says, "The national

7 structure of elected deputies in the BH assembly." Does that show that in

8 the Chamber of municipalities there were 43 Muslims, 40 Serbs, 24 Croats

9 and three who described themselves as Yugoslavs? And that's on page 58 of

10 the translation.

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. Yes. Thank you, sir.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we will make sure those extra two pages

14 are given to Your Honour tomorrow.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.

16 MS. KORNER:

17 Q. Now, after -- just -- actually, before I deal with what happened

18 after those elections, as far as companies that were in Sanski Most were

19 concerned, were they mainly state-owned?

20 A. Yes, they were.

21 Q. By the time of the elections in 1990, how many of them were

22 privatised or semi-privatised?

23 A. By 1990, there was no privatisation. These were all state-owned

24 companies. Privatisation is only now going on, after the war.

25 Q. And for the largest companies, companies that -- a company called

Page 4867

1 Sip, S-I-P?

2 A. Yes, Sip Sana. That is a wood-processing company. It was the

3 largest company in Sanski Most and it was the main factor of development

4 of the municipality of Sanski Most. It had between 2.000 and 2.500

5 employees.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, unless you require more information on

7 these state-owned companies from the witness, may I suggest to you to read

8 out to him the relevant paragraph from his statement and ask him to

9 confirm it?

10 MS. KORNER: Certainly.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

12 MS. KORNER: I don't think he need read the whole paragraph, Your

13 Honour.

14 Q. Is this right? There was another large company called the 20th of

15 October, which had about 1.100 people working for it?

16 A. That's right, yes.

17 Q. Then there was a factory called Kamengrad, which had 400 people

18 working in a coal mine?

19 A. Yes, it was a coal mine, that's correct.

20 Q. And then a factory called Keramika, which was in the business of

21 producing tiles, for 300 people -- I'm sorry, which had 300 people working

22 for them?

23 A. Yes, that's right. That was Sanakeram.

24 Q. And I think there were other businesses in the construction

25 industry, agriculture, and you had a lot of people working abroad.

Page 4868

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Now, we've looked at the result of the elections that we saw.

3 Mr. Hodzic, was he the President of the SDA party?

4 A. Yes, he was, Mr. Hivzo Hodzic.

5 Q. Just to jump ahead, what happened to him?

6 A. He was unfortunately killed in 1992.

7 Q. And at what stage was he killed in 1992?

8 A. At the beginning in the Sanski Most municipality, he was arrested

9 in his apartment and he was detained in Betonirka. He was then supposed

10 to be transferred to Manjaca, and during that transfer, he died because of

11 the conditions under which he was transported -- transferred. This was on

12 the 7th of July, 1992. So on the way, in this convoy, during the transfer

13 towards Manjaca, he succumbed.

14 Q. Now, we saw that Mr. Rasula won the election. Was he the

15 president of the SDS party?

16 A. Yes, Mr. Rasula, he was the president of the SDS party.

17 Q. And the HDZ, was that a gentleman named Mr. Tunic?

18 A. Yes, there was. Ante Tunic.

19 Q. Can I deal with Sanski Most. We've seen that it was a mixed

20 community really between Serbs and Muslims with a small proportion of

21 Croats. Were there any ethnic tensions before the elections in 1990?

22 A. I think that all ethnicities, all nationalities in Sanski Most

23 lived harmoniously side by side, so there were no interethnic tensions.

24 Q. Was there intermarriage between the ethnicities?

25 A. Yes, there were many mixed marriages. And Sanski Most's

Page 4869

1 surroundings were very much mixed, with different ethnicities that you are

2 talking about.

3 Q. Now, the elections which took place. As far as the municipal

4 assembly was concerned, did the SDS get 23 seats, the SDA 22, 7 seats for

5 the SDP, 4 for the HDZ, and 4 for the Reform party?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Now, after the elections, what was the position in respect of the

8 allocation of positions?

9 A. After the elections, the parties negotiated regarding the

10 positions in accordance with the results of the elections.

11 Q. And were those negotiations successful in the allocation of the

12 various positions?

13 A. For the most -- for a number of most important positions in the

14 municipality, the parties negotiated and they took those positions. But

15 when it came to lower level positions, the positions in the judiciary, in

16 the police, where mostly -- there were mostly Serb deputies and not so

17 many Bosniaks and Croats --

18 THE INTERPRETER: Employees, not deputies.

19 A. -- this is where the negotiations came upon obstacles.

20 MS. KORNER:

21 Q. Just very briefly, if you can, in one sentence, what was the major

22 obstacle to the successful outcome of the negotiations?

23 A. I can mention the police administration or the public security

24 station, the police. There, there were more than 70 per cent of people

25 employed. They were Serbs. They were policemen of Serb ethnicity. In

Page 4870

1 the court, the judiciary, there were 70 per cent of employees who were of

2 Serb ethnicity.

3 Q. Sorry, sir -- perhaps I can -- so is the answer that effectively

4 the Serbs did not want to relinquish any positions there to other -- to

5 members of other ethnicities?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. All right. Then perhaps just before we break, I can deal with the

8 other major positions. We've already dealt with Mr. Rasula. Did he

9 become the president of the municipal assembly?

10 A. After the elections, the SDS party won by a very small number of

11 votes. Rasula took over the position of the president of the Municipal

12 Assembly of Sanski Most. The president of the executive board was the

13 candidate from the SDA, Mr. Karabik -- Mirsad Karabik [phoen].

14 Q. Was Mr. Hodzic the deputy president of the assembly?

15 A. That's right. He was the deputy president -- or rather,

16 vice-president. He was a volunteer.

17 Q. And finally, on the police. Was the chief of police a man named

18 Dragan Majkic, who was an SDS member, and the commander somebody called

19 Enver Burnic, who was a member of the SDA?

20 A. When negotiations were held regarding the division of positions in

21 the police administration, or rather, the public security station of

22 Sanski Most, there were -- there was a lot of discord. And finally, the

23 SDA yielded the position of the chief of the public security station, to

24 which the candidate Dragan Majkic was elected. And for the commander, the

25 candidate of Bosniak ethnicity was elected, Enver Burnic.

Page 4871

1 Q. And I think in the case of Mr. Burnic as with Mr. Hodzic, was he

2 also later killed?

3 A. Burnic. I apologise. It's Mr. Burnic.

4 Q. It's my pronunciation. But was he -- can you just deal with

5 this: Was he later killed as well in 1992?

6 A. Immediately in the beginning of the aggression on the Sanski Most

7 municipality, he was arrested among the first ones and he was detained in

8 Betonirka. And he disappeared. He has not been found to date. From the

9 premises of the police administration, he was seen by some people as being

10 driven to Manjaca -- in the direction of Manjaca and that he was

11 returned. I mean, some other camp prisoners who were driven in lorries.

12 Q. Yes.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't know what time you're going on

14 to today.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: We have another ten minutes.

16 MS. KORNER: Right.

17 Q. Then I think someone else who joined -- or came to join the

18 municipal Secretariat for Defence, apart from two people who were SDS

19 members, was a man named Nedjeljko Anicic.

20 A. He was a -- an army officer, a JNA army officer. I believe that

21 he was retired. But sometime in early April or in May, he was working in

22 the Territorial Defence staff.

23 Q. And did he later become the commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade,

24 which was based in Sanski Most?

25 A. I don't think he was the commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade, if

Page 4872

1 you mean Nedeljko Anicic. I am not sure that he was.

2 Q. All right. Did he have something to do with the 6th Krajina

3 Brigade? Let's put it that way.

4 A. He did. In the preparation -- I believe that he was the main

5 person in the staff of the 6th Krajina Brigade and that he was also in the

6 Crisis Staff. I think he was involved in making plans -- in the planning,

7 that is, together with the commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade. He was

8 the most important military person in the command staff of the 6th Krajina

9 Brigade.

10 Q. I'm sorry, the commander was the most important person, do you

11 mean?

12 A. The commander is the most important person, but Anicic,

13 Mr. Nedjeljko Anicic, was in the staff. He was the Chief of Staff of the

14 Serbian defence, of the Serb defence.

15 Q. All right. And just let's deal with that for the moment. During

16 the events that we are going to deal with in 1992, who was the commander

17 of the 6th Krajina Brigade?

18 A. The commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade, when the aggression

19 started on the municipality of Sanski Most in 1992, was Lieutenant Colonel

20 or Colonel of the former JNA, Branko Basara.

21 Q. Now, I want to move, then, to the events after the war in Croatia

22 started. Once the war in Croatia started in June of 1991, was the 6th

23 Krajina Brigade -- or rather, was mobilisation ordered?

24 A. After the 6th Krajina Brigade was returned to Sanski Most from the

25 front in Croatia, from the Republic of Croatia, mobilisation followed in

Page 4873

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Page 4874

1 Sanski Most.

2 Q. Yes, all right. I think we may be -- it's my fault. The war

3 started in June of 1991. Did the 6th Krajina Brigade go straight to

4 Croatia before mobilisation was ordered?

5 A. I cannot give you a precise answer. I cannot recall. I cannot

6 remember the dates. But I know, and I do remember, that the 6th Krajina

7 Brigade, the Sanska Brigade, as part of the JNA, took part on the front in

8 the Republic of Croatia during the war. I know this because many

9 reservists of the 6th Krajina Brigade were released from having to do

10 their work, their place of employment, because they were mobilised, and

11 they went to the front.

12 Q. All right. I'm sorry, I interrupted. Was there something else

13 you wanted to say?

14 A. While they were at the front, they were receiving a salary at

15 their place of employment in the company, and I also know that the members

16 of the 6th Krajina Brigade and the reservists who were Bosniak or Croat,

17 they did not want to go to the front in Croatia, except for some

18 exceptions. They deserted. When there were shifts of parts of the 6th

19 Krajina Brigade returned to Sanski Most, very often there was a

20 disturbance of security among the population, and this created tensions in

21 a certain way among the population of Sanski Most because people came from

22 the front with weapons that they then carried through the town.

23 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour, that may be a convenient

24 moment.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner, and I thank you, Judge. We

Page 4875

1 will continue tomorrow.

2 There is one very small matter that I wanted to raise. You filed

3 a motion to redact part of the transcript relating to Witness BT12 because

4 there was a moment when we should have been in private session and we

5 weren't.

6 MS. KORNER: Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you had time, Mr. Ackerman and Maitre de Roux,

8 to go through that motion?

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. I have no objection, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: And Maitre de Roux?

11 MR. DE ROUX: [Interpretation] No objection, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: So we are just handing now a verbal decision. Your

13 motion is granted.

14 MS. KORNER: I'm grateful to Your Honour.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

17 5.45 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday

18 the 24th day of April, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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