Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 5623

1 Wednesday, 15 May 2002

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you call the case, please, Madam Registrar.

6 Thank you.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good morning to you. Can you hear me

10 in a language that you can understand.

11 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.

12 I can hear you and I understand you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

14 General Talic, can you hear me in a language that you can

15 understand?

16 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour, I

17 can hear you in a language that I understand.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Appearances for the Prosecution.

19 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, assisted by Susan Grogan case

20 manager. Good morning, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And good morning to you.

22 Appearances for Mr. Brdjanin.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Good morning, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman with

24 Tania Radosavljevic and Marela Jevtovic.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Good morning to you.

Page 5624

1 Appearances for General Talic.

2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Natasha Fauveau-Ivanovic

3 assisted by Fabien Masson. I represent General Talic.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Any preliminaries.

5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, only this, I had a look yesterday at the

6 motion by Mr. Ackerman asking for a certification on the Rule 70 matter.

7 Your Honour, effectively I think the Prosecution take a neutral view. We

8 think the judgement is correct, and we don't resile from it. But if Your

9 Honours feel that Mr. Ackerman's application that this is a matter of

10 sufficient importance to grant a certificate, then as I say, we take a

11 neutral stance.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.

13 Anything else?

14 Now, Madam, there must have either been a major collision on the

15 way. But our secretaries were -- they were even ahead of me with all of

16 my files and all the other files.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay. Thank you.

19 [Microphone not activated] Good morning to you, Judge. Please

20 proceed with the usual solemn declaration with which you should be

21 familiar by now. Thank you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. I solemnly declare

23 that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


25 [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 5625

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you. You may sit down.

2 Ms. Korner.

3 MS. KORNER: Yes. Could the witness be given back the first

4 bundle of the Sanski Most documents. And if he could go to divider number

5 17.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Exhibit number, please.

7 MS. KORNER: Oh, I'm sorry. Exhibit P605.

8 Examined by Ms. Korner: [Continued]

9 Q. Now, Judge, if you could find the version --

10 MS. KORNER: Just to remind us, yesterday, Your Honour, we looked

11 at Exhibit P601, which was a decision about establishing the Serbian

12 municipality of Sanski Most. And this is very similar, but it's slightly

13 different. And there's one matter I want to ask about. And this is --

14 it's the same date, the 25th of March, as the other document seemed to

15 have at the end of it.

16 Q. Judge, in this -- they're giving reasons for the adoption of the

17 decision by the Serbian people of Sanski Most. And it states this in the

18 second paragraph: "The Serbian people on the territory of Sanski Most

19 municipality are not a minority. They make up a majority of the

20 population and number 29.857 ethnic Serbs." Don't worry about the

21 figures. We have them from the census ourselves.

22 But then it goes on to say that "The total surface area of the

23 municipality is 948 square kilometres, while the surface area inhabited by

24 the Serbian population which has declared itself in favour of entering the

25 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina amounts to 70.6 per cent of the

Page 5626

1 total surface area of the municipality."

2 Now, I don't want to enter into percentages, Judge, at all, but in

3 your view with your knowledge of this municipality, was that an accurate

4 representation of the territory occupied by the Serbian people?

5 A. As far as I know -- and I think that I am familiar with the data

6 concerning the territory in Bosnia and Herzegovina -- I believe that these

7 data are incorrect.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait. Okay. Go ahead.


10 Q. Yes.

11 A. I think that the data here are incorrect and arbitrary. It is

12 correct that the surface of the municipality of Sanski Most is

13 approximately 980 square kilometres.

14 Q. I'm sorry, pause. Did you say 980? Because it says here 948.

15 Was that an accurate translation?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. It is -- the thing that is written here is correct. This is what

19 the Serbian authorities wrote. But the actual surface is about 983 square

20 kilometres.

21 Q. I see. All right. And you say that as far as you're concerned to

22 allege that 70.6 per cent is Serbian is inaccurate.

23 A. That would be absurd. It's incorrect, because in Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina Bosniaks are in the majority --

25 Q. No.

Page 5627

1 A. Muslims.

2 Q. I think --

3 A. But in our municipality, in the municipality of Sanski Most, I

4 know that the majority population in Sanski Most in accordance with the

5 1999 census and throughout the history, it's been the Bosniaks. They had

6 the majority.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. So in 1992, before the beginning of the aggression on Sanski Most,

9 I can give you the percentages and the ratio of the population. Do I have

10 to?

11 Q. No. We have the figures ourselves. Thank you very much.

12 All right. That's all I want to ask you about that document.

13 Could you move now, please --

14 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.

16 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] For the transcript. I

17 would now like to make an objection to this document and to any other

18 document not bearing a signature. We also would like to challenge this

19 document because its source is the state security service in Bihac.


21 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] I'm sorry. This

22 document --

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau.


25 Q. Just pause. Thank you very much. This document in fact was part

Page 5628

1 of the seizure from the Banja Luka CSB. It's not -- doesn't come from

2 Bihac. I just want to make that clear.

3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but we got a

4 list from the Prosecution indicating the source of the document. And on

5 that list, it is written "SDB Bihac" 17th of November, 1995.

6 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ...

7 Q. However, Judge, this came from Bihac. But do you know anything

8 about this document? Had you seen it before you came to this court?

9 A. I think that we looked at another document here, a document that

10 was signed.

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. By the president of the Serbian democratic party, Vrkes Vlado, the

13 president of the municipal assembly of Sanski Most, Nedeljko Rasula, and

14 the president of the assemblement [As interpreted] club, Savonovic Boro.

15 And that's the same document. It's virtually the same.

16 Q. I understand that. We've just gone back to that one. But this

17 particular document, had you seen it before it went to the Bihac office if

18 you can remember? If you can't remember, say so.

19 A. I think that I saw this document. And I probably handed it over

20 to Bihac.

21 Q. Thank you. All right. Can we now move, please, in the bundle to

22 document P6 --

23 A. I'm sorry. If I may. I remember this statement of reasons here

24 quite well and this decision, and I do have the original in Sanski Most.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 5629

1 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment. The original of this particular exhibit

2 that you have been shown? In other words, without a proper signature and

3 without a proper stamp? Or with the proper signature and a proper stamp?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I have this -- the original

5 of this document without the signature and without a stamp.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.


8 Q. All right. Could we move, please, to document marked Prosecutor's

9 Exhibit 613, which we will find behind tab number 29.

10 Now, this is a document dated the 14th of April, 1992 in -- from

11 the CSB in Banja Luka -- or to the CSB, I think, from an operative, headed

12 "Evaluation of the current security situation in the Sanski Most area,"

13 dealing -- saying that: "According to sources, the security situation in

14 Sanski Most is complex and characterised by the law being ignored, frosty

15 inter-ethnic relations, tension leading to the organisation of the

16 population for self-protection, a rise in crime, and difficult internal

17 affairs working conditions." And it says that is the reason is because of

18 what's been happening all through Bosnia.

19 But this paragraph: "The most recent incident of a mass gathering

20 of armed Serbian and Muslim inhabitants in Sanski Most caused by

21 explosives being placed on a building belonging to a Serb led to demands

22 for the territory of the municipality to be divided." And then: "In

23 order to improve the security situation, in addition to the engagement of

24 mixed JNA and OUP patrols -- internal affairs patrols, it is necessary to

25 devote other relevant attention in order to avert possible large scale

Page 5630

1 excesses."

2 Now, do you recall anything about an incident of a mass gathering

3 of armed Serbs and Muslims and explosives being placed on a building

4 belonging to a Serb around April of 1992?

5 A. I remember what the situation was like in April.

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. And in May.

8 Q. You've described to us the situation. I'm just asking do you have

9 any recollection of any such incident as is described here?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: There are two incidents, Judge, that have been

11 mentioned in this document and by Ms. Korner. Let's take the first one.

12 Explosives being placed on a building belonging to a Serb. It doesn't say

13 that it did explode. It just says that explosives were placed. Do you

14 recall such an incident prior or -- around but certainly prior to 14th

15 April 1992?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I do remember that I carried

17 out an on-site investigation, because at that time I was both the

18 investigating judge and the President of the court. And in April and May,

19 44 explosions happened due to explosives being put on Croat and Muslim

20 buildings, business premises, and houses. 44 is the exact number of such

21 incidents.


23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And whether this was a situation --

24 you mentioned the 8th. There was an incident involving the placing of

25 explosives, but I wasn't given any official reports about it. There was a

Page 5631

1 cafe where Serb soldiers gathered. They went there every day and every

2 night. They were armed. And that was in the immediate vicinity of the

3 courthouse, across the road from it. I know that -- I think that the name

4 of the owner was Lazic. He was a member of the SOS or -- I don't know.

5 But I did not receive any official reports about the explosives being

6 placed there, and I cannot confirm whether there had been any rallies of

7 armed groups or any excesses, because at that time the Serbian army was

8 present everywhere. There were checkpoints. You see what I mean. We

9 were virtually invisible.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Judge. Listen, I asked you a very

11 simple question: Do you recall an incident around but certainly before

12 the 14th of April, 1992, when allegedly explosives were placed on a

13 building belonging to a Serb? Please answer me "yes" or "no" for the time

14 being. It's not a question of whether you were informed officially or

15 whether you read about it. It's a question of whether you heard that

16 there was such an incident.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do recall.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, on this occasion when these explosives were

19 discovered on a building belonging to a Serb, do you recall a mass

20 gathering of armed Serbs and Muslim -- Serbian and Muslim inhabitants in

21 Sanski Most? Obviously related, in connection to the discovery of these

22 explosives.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that there were no mass

24 rallies.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Not mass rallies. Mass gatherings. I mean, it may

Page 5632

1 be a question of interpretation. I -- unfortunately I can't follow both

2 languages.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not notice any such thing.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Please go ahead, Ms. Korner.

5 MS. KORNER: Yes.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

7 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] Okay. Thank you.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 MS. KORNER: Sorry.

10 Q. Could you leave that document and go, please, to the document

11 behind divider number 31, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 614.

12 Now, this is a document that comes from the files of the 1st

13 Krajina Corps -- the 5th, as it then was -- dated the 19th of April,

14 1992. And under item 3, "situation in the area of responsibility." "The

15 situation in our area of responsibility is still complex, particularly in

16 the Sanski Most -- I think it must be -- area, where there has been a

17 division of the police force." Was it around this time that, as you told

18 us, the Serb police force was set up?

19 A. I have already mentioned this in my testimony.

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. On the 19th of April, 1992 the Serb police was established -- or

22 in other words, Bosniaks and Croats were simply expelled from the public

23 security station.

24 Q. Okay. The next -- it's the next line, then. I just want you to

25 confirm it was around this date. "Thanks to the efforts of military

Page 5633

1 organs and mixed patrol, there have been no clashes."

2 First question: Were you aware of -- if it means that, and it may

3 not -- mixed patrols of military and police being carried out?

4 A. I have already spoke about that in my testimony, that the police

5 officers of Bosniak and Croat ethnic origin were expelled on that day from

6 the public security station, and they went to the building of the

7 Municipal Assembly of Sanski Most, where they remained --

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. -- Holding that building.

10 Q. Yes. I -- all I'm concerned about is after the Muslims and Croats

11 were expelled, whether then mixed police patrols with military -- I mean,

12 i.e. Serb police patrols with military police patrols.

13 A. Yes, they were made up of exclusively Serb police officers and

14 military police officers. And at the -- checkpoints at the exit routes,

15 I would see them from time to time or for a certain period of time.

16 Q. Okay. Can we then move, please, to the next document, which is

17 immediately following, Prosecutor's Exhibit P615, which is a Crisis Staff

18 Sanski Most -- it looks like press release, I suppose, because it's dated

19 the 20th of April, 1992 and addressed to the chief of public security

20 service Banja Luka and the Serbian newspaper agency in Sarajevo and --

21 telling citizens that from the 20th of April, the territory in the Serbian

22 municipality of Sanski Most, only the Serbian republic laws and

23 regulations are valid. It guarantees peace and security to all citizens

24 regardless of their religion, ethnicity, or ideology.

25 And finally says this that "The Crisis Staff is of the opinion

Page 5634

1 that force had to be used during the liberation of the Sanski Most

2 Municipal Assembly building from the armed formations of the extreme

3 faction of the SDA leadership. Long and exhausting talks simply failed to

4 bear fruit -- and we call upon citizens to express their loyalty."

5 Just very simple question, because you've told us -- you've

6 described the takeover. Were there armed formations of the SDA in the

7 municipal assembly building?

8 A. I have already said that these were the police officers --

9 professional police officers from the public security station who had been

10 expelled from there. The SDA did not have any armed formations in Sanski

11 Most. There were only the police officers there, the ones who had gone

12 over from the public security station and remained there for only two

13 days.

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. And the leadership of the SDA party was also there -- some of the

16 leaders of the party were also there. I think it was on the 18th, since

17 these events took place on the 17th. And on the 18th, in the morning

18 hours, I came in my car to the municipal assembly building to see what was

19 going on, and they were in effect in the -- I was in fact in the building

20 for half an hour, and I spoke to some people there. Then I left the

21 building and went away.

22 Q. Were any of the leaders that you've described of the SDA armed?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] That he could see.

24 MS. KORNER: Oh, that he could see. Yes, obviously.

25 A. They were wearing civilian clothes. They didn't have any

Page 5635

1 weapons.

2 Q. All right. Can we move, then, please, to the very next document,

3 Prosecutor's Exhibit P616. It's again a document that comes from the

4 files of the Krajina Corps, dated the same day as this press release, the

5 20th of April. And if you go, please, to item number 2. It talks about

6 the disposition of the 5th Corps and its zone of responsibility. "The

7 activities of the corps command have centred on monitoring the situation

8 in subordinated units and in the zone of responsibility. A team from

9 corps command headed by the commander has assessed the situation in the

10 Prijedor region, focussing on Sanski Most, and measures are being taken to

11 improve the situation."

12 Now, you've described the visit by General Talic, which was around

13 this period of time. But were you aware, first of all, that there was a

14 team, if you like, a number of officers in the Sanski Most region

15 assessing what was happening? If the answer is no, say so.

16 A. I knew that the concentration of the armed forces of the Banja

17 Luka Corps. And that's the corps that was under the command of

18 General Talic. I knew that this corps surrounded Sanski Most. And on

19 periphery of Sanski Most itself -- it was present on the periphery. I had

20 important duties to carry out, as the President of the court. I was able

21 to gain information about many things, and I was able to observe many

22 things. And it was at that time that large columns of military vehicles

23 of what was then the JNA came to Sanski Most and drove around in the

24 middle of the day with the Serbian flag upfront. And there were dozens of

25 vehicles. I counted them.

Page 5636

1 On one Monday, there were over 80 vehicles of the JNA in a column

2 in the middle of the town. They crossed the square. That was a

3 demonstration of force, and it made the Muslims and Croats afraid. I was

4 able to know about this. I saw high-ranking officers there too, because I

5 was still in the court and I was in contact with the public security

6 station. I would go to that station. I wasn't afraid. I was able to see

7 and to meet high-ranking officers who were going up -- upstairs to where

8 the command was. I knew very well that -- I knew very well what the

9 military staff was doing, headed by Colonel [Realtime transcript read in

10 error "Ganicic"] Anicic. I knew where the 6th Krajina Brigade was

11 located, whose commander was Basara Branko. I had contact with Basara

12 Branko because I was a member of the league of peace. And I -- we invited

13 the command of the 6th Krajina Corps to a meeting, Basara, and he came.

14 Q. I'm sorry. It was translated -- it's come up on the screen as you

15 knew very well what the military staff was doing, headed by -- headed by

16 Colonel Ganicic. Do you mean Ganicic or Anicic?

17 A. It's not Galicic. I said Anicic. Nedeljko Anicic, who was a

18 colonel in the staff.

19 Q. I'm sorry. I appreciate that. The trouble is if we don't correct

20 it now, it comes up in the transcript wrongly.

21 All right. Thank you very much. Could you move to the next

22 document, please, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 617, which is at the next

23 divider. It's a report from the -- of the Krajina Corps for the same

24 date, 20th of April. Item number 3, "Situation on the territory -- in the

25 zone of responsibility. The situation in the zone of responsibility

Page 5637

1 continues to get more complex. Ethnic divisions have particularly

2 escalated in Sanski Most, where there was sporadic shooting between

3 Muslims -- Serbs and Muslims during the night in which the municipal

4 assembly building was set on fire." And "There have been no conflicts

5 during the day, and certain measures are being taken by the 5th Corps

6 command and the Prijedor garrison to overcome the situation."

7 Now, you've described to us in detail what happened. All I want

8 to know is this: Was there actually shooting going on between Serbs and

9 Muslims after the municipal building was attacked?

10 A. The army fired at the municipal building from a -- a military

11 personal carrier which was positioned on the square. They used a --

12 Q. I'm sorry.

13 A. -- A megaphone and asked the policemen to come out. No one fired

14 from the municipality building. There was no resistance. There was --

15 not a single bullet was fired.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Could we move then, please --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, because I don't think that the answer --

18 reply is comprehensive.

19 The statement in this document said that there was sporadic

20 shooting between Serbs and Muslims during the night in which the municipal

21 assembly building was set on fire. You certainly recall the night in

22 which the municipal assembly building was set on fire. Now, before or

23 after that the municipal assembly building was set on fire or even during

24 the time when it was set on fire, do you recall any sporadic shooting

25 between Serbs and Muslims? Not necessarily between the army and the

Page 5638

1 police that were in the building. The events of those -- of that

2 particular night. Do you recall any sporadic shooting between Serbs and

3 Muslims?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've understood you. I was clear.

5 There was no shooting between the Muslims and the Serbs. The Serbs fired

6 that evening.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

8 Ms. Korner.

9 MS. KORNER: Well, I think -- Your Honour, just to make it

10 absolutely clear, because I see the point Your Honour's making.

11 Q. Other than -- within the precinct of the municipal building and

12 what was happening there, was there any shooting going on elsewhere in the

13 town that you're aware of between Serbs and Muslims?

14 A. I remember that evening very well. There was shooting but not

15 between the Muslims and the Serbs. The military formations and the police

16 who had weapons were involved in the shooting, and that was in the centre

17 of the town itself.

18 Q. All right. Are we talking about military -- Serb military against

19 Muslim police officers?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. All right.

22 A. And that lasted for about -- well, from 9.00 in the evening until

23 11.00. And then nothing else was heard. I saw that. I was in my

24 parents' house that evening. I wasn't able to stay in my own house. My

25 father and I were there.

Page 5639

1 Q. Yes.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question, Ms. Korner.

3 MS. KORNER: All right.

4 Q. Don't worry. All that I -- I just want to make it absolutely

5 clear. This was an incident separate -- this was an incident separate

6 from the attack on the municipal building that you're talking about.

7 A. This was not an incident, but this is something I saw. When the

8 shooting on the square was heard -- and this was not far from my house --

9 at that point, the crossroads were blocked. A lorry with a trailer

10 arrived just above my house by the crossroads, and they blocked the

11 bridge. The lorry with the trailer arrived. I know who brought it, who

12 drove it up. It was a Serbian neighbour from an adjacent street. And the

13 entrance to the city was blocked. This is what I wanted to say. And the

14 checkpoint remained there. And when I was arrested, the checkpoint was

15 still there.

16 Q. Okay. Final question on this, and I hope we're getting -- is what

17 happened to the Muslim police officers who were firing at the Serb

18 military?

19 A. The Muslim policemen didn't shoot at the Serbian soldiers. They

20 didn't. I'll repeat this. The Muslim policemen who were on the other

21 side of the building, they simply left the building on the other side.

22 There was a -- a side exit. And they went along the bank of the Sana

23 River.

24 Q. Okay?

25 A. They all took this route to leave in the direction of Sehovci, a

Page 5640

1 village which was about 2 kilometres away. It's a Muslim village. That's

2 where they went in the evening.

3 Q. Okay. Fine. I'm sorry. It's entirely my fault -- and it may be

4 Your Honours have understood -- who was the shooting -- that you said

5 there was shooting away from the municipal building between Muslims and

6 Serbs. Who was doing the shooting?

7 A. In the municipality building, soldiers were firing from the square

8 at the windows, at the doors. And members of the SOS and probably members

9 of the Serbian police, they were firing in the direction of the building.

10 All the officers -- the walls in all the offices had potholes, had

11 holes in the walls.

12 Q. No. Please stop, Judge, for a moment. I'm not interested in the

13 municipal building at the moment. I understood your evidence when we

14 looked at this entry in the 1st KK - Krajina Corps - document, you agreed

15 that that was sporadic shooting between Serbs and Muslims somewhere in the

16 town. You don't agree.

17 A. I don't agree.

18 Q. All right. In that case, I think we're back to square one, and

19 I'm going to leave it?

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Leave it. Next question, Ms. Korner, please.

21 MS. KORNER: Okay.

22 Q. Can we go then, please, to the next document. And very briefly,

23 it's really just to note in passing that -- I'm sorry. P618. It's the

24 same incident effectively. In item 3 "Situation in the territory."

25 Again, a Krajina Corps document dated the 21st of April. "The situation

Page 5641

1 in Sanski Most remains critical, and the corps command is already taking

2 measures to overcome the current situation." And effectively you've

3 described what that -- those measures were. So could we move, please, to

4 the next document, Prosecutor's Exhibit P619, at divider 36.

5 Yes. Now, just for a moment -- this document comes from -- was

6 submitted by Bihac to the Office of the Prosecutor. But you've described

7 how you found various documents from the Crisis Staff when you returned to

8 Sanski Most. Was this one of them, can you recall? If you can have a

9 very quick look at it.

10 A. Yes, that's one of the documents.

11 Q. Thank you. Where were all these documents relating to these

12 decisions of the Crisis Staff found?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And where were they?

15 A. You're referring to these documents?

16 Q. Yes. The documents that relate to conclusions of the Crisis Staff

17 or Crisis Staff documents, where were they found?

18 A. Sanski Most, in the premises of the municipality, in the Crisis

19 Staff.

20 Q. Okay. Now, I just want to look at a couple of these conclusions

21 here. First of all, conclusion number 3, "Rasula and Anicic are hereby

22 instructed to visit the leadership of the Autonomous Region of Krajina and

23 explain in detail the situation in Sanski Most and try to obtain

24 suggestions and guidelines for further action."

25 And then at the bottom, item number 9: "We recommend to all

Page 5642

1 citizens of Sanski Most municipality who have displayed extremism in

2 working against the Serbian people to refrain from coming to work in the

3 coming days for their own safety."

4 Now, do you recall any announcements or any instructions being

5 publicly made to that effect?

6 A. I know that at that time, during that period -- and that was in

7 the second half of April and the first half of May -- I know that during

8 that period people were dismissed from their jobs, people who were

9 Bosniaks, of Bosniak nationality, and of Croatian nationality were

10 dismissed. And in institutions, organs, and companies --

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge, be patient. One moment, please. The

12 question was something completely different. And in a way Ms. Korner is

13 to blame for this because she referred to two paragraphs that have got

14 absolutely nothing to do, the one with the other.

15 Let's start with the latter of these two paragraphs, number 9:

16 "We recommend to all citizens of Sanski Most municipality who have

17 displayed extremism in working against Serbian people to refrain from

18 coming to work in the coming days for their own safety." The question

19 was: Do you recall any announcement or any instructions being publicly --

20 I repeat, publicly -- made to this effect or to that effect? Please

21 answer "yes" or "no." If it's yes, then do give us the details as to

22 the -- the kind of announcement that you're referring to that, you heard.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember an announcement

24 being made, but I do remember that people would lose their jobs. They

25 were quite simply told that they shouldn't turn up to their jobs.

Page 5643

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Stop there. And the other one was -- the

2 other paragraph, paragraph 3 is: "Nedeljko Rasula and Nedzo Anicic are

3 hereby instructed to visit the leadership of the Autonomous Region of

4 Krajina and explain in detail the situation in Sanski Most and try to

5 obtain suggestions and guidelines for further action."

6 Do you recall having heard or seen public announcement to that

7 effect?

8 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour -- well, you can ask the question.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Well, it was part of the question.

10 MS. KORNER: No. It wasn't, actually. You're quite right. I

11 looked at my question, and it was unclear. I merely noted that in

12 passing, and I was merely asking about that.

13 But as Your Honours asked the question -- I doubt it, but --

14 Q. Were you aware of visits by the leadership of the Crisis -- or in

15 this case the leader of the Crisis Staff, or one of them, and Colonel

16 Anicic to the Autonomous Region leadership?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Are you aware of it; yes or no?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I don't remember that

19 visit. I -- it's not something that I followed.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd just like to add something.

22 I'll just be brief. The conclusions of the Crisis Staff weren't made

23 public knowledge, not all of them were made public knowledge.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... okay. Please

25 go ahead, Ms. Korner.

Page 5644

1 MS. KORNER: Yes.

2 Q. Now, can we move, please, now to Prosecutor's Exhibit P621, which

3 is behind divider 38.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, if you could kindly restrict your

5 questions or phrase them in a way as to ask for a yes or no reply, answer,

6 that would be much better I think.

7 MS. KORNER: Well, I hoped that they were.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: And you have been trying to. And perhaps the

9 witness understands what I'm saying, and we could move along that way.


11 Q. Okay. This is conclusions of the Crisis Staff, dated the 22nd of

12 April, 1992. In paragraph number 4, Rasula is tasked with going with some

13 other gentleman, the acting director of the public auditing service to

14 Banja Luka and bringing all documents relating to the redirection of the

15 transfer of payments to the SDK of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

16 Now, I just want you to confirm -- is this right -- I think you

17 told us about it -- that -- that when the SDK had earlier been taken over

18 and your salary came through Banja Luka, if you got paid.

19 A. That's right. Salaries were transferred through Banja Luka, but

20 we hadn't received our salaries since February.

21 Q. All right. And then at the bottom, paragraph 7: "Boro and Vlado

22 are hereby tasked with contacting representatives of the Muslim and

23 Croatian peoples and requesting that they be loyal to the existing organs

24 of authority of the Serbian municipality of Sanski Most and conveying

25 them -- to them that they will be guaranteed all rights in employment,

Page 5645

1 civil, religious, and other equalities."

2 Again, simple question, were you contacted by either of these

3 gentlemen -- I've forgotten who Boro is -- as a representative of the

4 Muslims and asked --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But was -- are you presuming that he was a

6 representative of the Muslims?

7 MS. KORNER: All right.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: As a judge and as a presiding President of the

9 court, I mean, I find it strange that you are addressing him as a possible

10 representative of the Muslim people there -- then, you know, or --

11 MS. KORNER: You do?

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Because a representative of the Muslim or Croatian

13 people to me has got a political connotation.

14 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I don't know what the answer to

15 that is so -- I'll ask him.

16 Q. Were you considered -- if you can answer that question, I

17 suppose -- to be a representative of the Muslim people in Sanski Most in

18 your position as a judge?

19 A. I was someone who had been invested with authority on behalf of

20 all the people, not just the Muslim people.

21 Q. All right.

22 A. I was a judge for all the peoples.

23 Q. Okay.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And then perhaps you can ask him the question,

25 because the Chamber would be interested in knowing, whether there was a

Page 5646

1 follow-up to this, whether, in other words, these two [Realtime transcript

2 read in error "villages"] individuals, Boro and Vlado -- Vlado, I suppose

3 it's --

4 MS. KORNER: Vrkes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Vrkes. Boro, I don't know -- Boro Savanovic,

6 yes?

7 MS. KORNER: Savanovic, yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Whether you are aware, Judge, that these two persons

9 in compliance with this task that was -- they were entrusted with did

10 actually contact to your knowledge representatives of the Muslim and

11 Croatian people, putting the request that is indicated in this last

12 paragraph, 7, on this document. That you know of.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the 20th --

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, after the 20th.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- As far as I know, there was no

16 more contact. And the SDA and HDZ party weren't visible any more. As far

17 as I know, there were no conversations about these -- about this subject.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question, Ms. Korner.

19 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I think the --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: There's a transcript problem, Your Honour, with

22 your question. It says: "The two villages Boro and Vlado" -- they're

23 not villages. They're people.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think in fact the next witness might

Page 5647

1 be better able to deal with that rather than this witness.

2 All right. Can we move to Prosecutor's Exhibit P622, which is

3 after divider 40. In fact, this is dated the 23rd of April, 1st Krajina

4 Corps document -- or 5th, as it then was. Under item 3, "Situation on the

5 ground." "The situation in the areas where excesses occurred is now under

6 control and the visit of the Corps Commander to the Sanski Most and his

7 tour today of Habjanovci have had a calming effect on the situation."

8 It's clearly -- it refers to the visit that you've described of

9 General Talic. Simply, yes or no, as far as you were concerned, did his

10 visit have the effect of calming, as it's put here, the situation in

11 Sanski Most?

12 A. I didn't notice that.

13 Q. Please, then, can we move to document -- Prosecutor's Exhibit 625,

14 which we will find behind divider 44.

15 This is a report by this man Milos, dated the 24th of April, 1992,

16 which states this: "After members of the Territorial Defence, the Serbian

17 police and volunteers had taken all key installations in Sanski Most.

18 Almost all extreme members of the SDA fled Sanski Most. Most escaped to

19 Croatia, where they earlier built summer houses."

20 Now, forget about whether there were summer houses or not. But

21 after the takeover, did members of the SDA, the leaders, flee Sanski

22 Most?

23 A. As far as I remember, no leaders of the SDA fled. They all

24 remained in Sanski Most, as far as the municipal board is concerned.

25 Q. Okay. Can we --

Page 5648

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Any information about the origin of this document?

2 What --

3 MS. KORNER: It comes from the CSB in Banja Luka, Your Honour.

4 It's one of these documents we had a long discussion about. There's an --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps the witness could give us some information.

6 I would imagine, Madam Fauveau, you are objecting to the -- please.

7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I have a general

8 objection I would like to make. The document doesn't have a signature or

9 stamp, but the witness didn't answer the question because the question was

10 about the members of the SDA. And the witness -- the witness's response

11 concerned the leaders of the SDA.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. She's -- Madam Fauveau is right.

13 MS. KORNER: Yes. Well, I didn't imagine it mattered -- well,

14 okay.

15 Q. Leaving aside the municipal board, are you aware of -- well, I

16 don't know about extreme members -- members of the SDA fleeing to

17 Croatia?

18 A. It is very difficult to answer the question, but let me say

19 briefly that at that time the population of Sanski Most took their

20 families away to safe places and left. And in April and in May, three or

21 four thousands of people, families mostly, family members, left the area.

22 It is quite difficult to say now whether these were SDA members, because

23 there were over a thousand members of the SDA, at least. I know quite a

24 few SDA members who didn't go anywhere. But there may be those who did go

25 with their families.

Page 5649

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Next question, please.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I am moving as quickly as I can.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. No. I ...


5 Q. Right. Can we move to the next document, please, Prosecutor's

6 Exhibit 626, which is behind the next divider.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Don't take my invitation to the next question to

8 proceed to the next question as a criticism, Ms. Korner.

9 MS. KORNER: Well, no. I just notice that Your Honour was saying

10 "next question" quite a lot this morning.

11 Q. Right. This is again a Crisis Staff conclusion dated the 28th of

12 April. Item 1: "All citizens in the area of Sanski Most municipality who

13 possess any kind of weapon shall hand it in to the public security

14 station, the closest unit of the JNA, or the staff of the Territorial

15 Defence of the Serbian municipality of Sanski Most. Citizens should hand

16 in weapons by 1900 hours," and so on and so forth. "Citizens who have

17 private weapons with a licence from a competent organ and members of armed

18 Territorial Defence formations, active service, and reserve police, and

19 the Yugoslav People's Army are exempt from this decision."

20 Now, we -- you've dealt in your evidence with the announcement of

21 the surrender of weapons. What I want to ask is this: Citizens who have

22 private weapons with a licence from a competent organ. As a judge, what

23 was the competent organ to issue the licence?

24 A. The competent organ was the public security station, which issued

25 licences to carry pistols or hunting rifles.

Page 5650

1 Q. Okay. This announcement purports to say that anyone who has such

2 a licence for a private weapon will be allowed to keep their weapons. Was

3 that actually applied to the Muslim and Croat populations who held

4 licenced weapons?

5 A. This decision was broadcast on several occasions on the radio, on

6 the Serbian radio, and I was able to hear it. But both legal and illegal

7 weapons had to be registered. That's what it said on the radio.

8 Q. Okay. So were -- I mean, very simply yes or no -- were Muslims

9 and Croats who held licensed weapons permitted to keep them?

10 A. No, they were not allowed to keep them. Weapons were taken away

11 from them, and people were in fact beaten because of that and imprisoned.

12 Q. Thank you. Could we move then to the next document, please, which

13 is the following divider. It's marked Exhibit P164. It's dated the 29th

14 of April, 1992 "Conclusions of the Crisis Staff meeting." "That changes

15 be made and all officials of the lower court of the Serbian municipality

16 of Sanski Most be appointed as acting officials. Vrkes, Vrucinic, and

17 Nikolic are in charge."

18 If I understand this correctly, what it's saying is that anybody

19 who holds a position will no longer have an official but merely an acting

20 position. Is that how it happened? Is that what you were told?

21 A. No. The sense of this conclusion is that all those who held posts

22 of a manager or a director of Muslim and Croat ethnicity would be replaced

23 and that new acting officials would be put in these posts, because it says

24 here in item 2 that the director of the Sanski Most public utilities

25 public enterprise be replaced. That was a Muslim, Ahmet Paunovic. So he

Page 5651

1 was replaced at that time. And an acting official -- an acting manager

2 was put on that post. He was a Serb. And Lukic, who was the manager at

3 the same time, was put in charge of this.

4 Q. Yes. Can I -- it may be that it's -- it's a translation problem,

5 because it doesn't say that the officials at the lower court in our

6 translation must be replaced. It says they must be appointed as acting.

7 Is that an accurate translation? Leave aside what actually happened.

8 A. It seems that the translation is wrong, because what it says here

9 is that changes be made and that all officials at the lower court of the

10 Serbian municipality of Sanski Most be appointed as acting officials.

11 Vrkes, Vrucinic, and Nikolic are in charge.

12 Q. I'm sorry. Okay. In any event, I think you've told us the result

13 was eventually you were all removed. Is that correct?

14 A. In item 3, it says here -- well, the director was also a Bosniak,

15 Sabanovic, Enis, a doctor. And Dr. Grubisa, a Serb was put on that post

16 instead. That happened then. And also Radovan Stanic replaced me in the

17 court. And in the misdemeanours court, Nedzad Muhic was replaced by Ms.

18 Andja Vujanic.

19 Q. Yes. You've told us. All right. Can we move then, please, to

20 the next document, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit P -- well, we could just

21 note. If you look at the next document, P627, we see there in item number

22 3 the doctor that you've referred to taking over.

23 However, can we move -- the next document I want to ask you about,

24 Prosecutor's Exhibit 630, which we will find behind divider 50.

25 MS. KORNER: I'm not -- I'm just noting this because it shows the

Page 5652

1 change. Item one --

2 Q. I'm not going to ask you a question. The Crisis Staff of the

3 Sanski Most Serbian municipality shall operate as a war staff as of today,

4 purely showing, as I opened the case, the changes in name.

5 But item number 5, please, on that list: "Radovan Stanic, Sanski

6 Most lower court judge, shall be in charge of preparing and setting up a

7 wartime court in accordance with the state of war declared in the

8 Autonomous Region of Krajina."

9 And you showed -- you found and produced for us the actual

10 official decision so appointing him.

11 Item number 9. "The existing checkpoint at the gas station at

12 Tomina shall be moved and a new one set up at the Vrhpolje bridge."

13 Do you recall a checkpoint being set up at the bridge, at around

14 this period of time?

15 A. Yes, I do remember. I was going in the direction of Kljuc.

16 MS. KORNER: And Your Honours, finally over the page -- it's not

17 really asking a question. But while we're looking at this document, the

18 paragraph that begins: "In the spirit of the conclusions of the meeting

19 of the war staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina held on the 6th of

20 May, the Crisis Staff of the Sanski Most Serbian municipality accepts and

21 orders the implementation of the following conclusions."

22 Your Honour, I'm not going to refer back to -- there's a decision

23 of the 6th of May from the Autonomous Region.

24 Q. Okay. Can we move on them, please, to Prosecutor's Exhibit P634,

25 which we will find behind divider number 5 -- sorry -- yes. And it

Page 5653

1 goes -- we're back into -- 5.

2 Actually -- I'm sorry, Your Honour. I don't know why I

3 mentioned -- it's a straight order. And I must have had a reason, but I

4 can't remember what it was at the moment. It's just an order to disarm

5 paramilitary formations.

6 Could we move then, please, to Prosecutor's Exhibit 636. I'm

7 sorry. Yes.

8 MS. KORNER: Your Honour -- yes. 635. If we could just look at

9 that in passing, dated the 20th of May.

10 Q. Item number 7. At the request of the regional Crisis Staff, the

11 Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality appointed Vlado Vrkes, deputy

12 president of the Crisis Staff of the Sanski Most Serbian municipality."

13 But then if we move to Prosecutor's Exhibit 636. And just

14 really -- it was a meeting of the fourth session of the executive

15 committee of the Sanski Most Municipal Assembly. But I think this is a

16 document, Judge, that you directly handed to a member of the Office of the

17 Prosecutor in April of 1996. Were these documents all in the municipal

18 assembly building as well? It's of no interest otherwise at the moment.

19 A. Yes, that's correct. They were in the building of the

20 municipality of Sanski Most in a binder.

21 Q. All right. Can we move, then, please to the next document, P --

22 Prosecutor's Exhibit P637. A Crisis Staff conclusion of the 22nd of May,

23 1992. Item F: "Boro and Vlado will be responsible for the work of the

24 judiciary in wartime conditions."

25 Now, I just want to ask you one question: Before these events,

Page 5654

1 did the municipal assembly have any control over the workings of judges,

2 how the judges operated and their workings?

3 A. We submitted reports on our work, on the work of the judiciary to

4 the municipal assembly. Although we were an independent judicial organ of

5 Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

6 Q. Did -- could the municipal assembly order you to do certain things

7 in connection with carrying out your function as a judge? In other words,

8 to release people or imprison people or matters of that nature.

9 A. I think they could not have issued any such orders to me and to

10 other judges -- neither could they do so to other judges. But at that

11 time the situation was different because I no longer had any control over

12 the Serbian judges.

13 Q. No. No. Absolutely. That's what I mean. Before these events in

14 April of 1992, were you ever given instructions or interfered with in that

15 respect by the municipal assembly?

16 A. I don't think so. We were independent -- an independent organ.

17 And in accordance to the law, we had to submit yearly or periodical

18 reports on our work. And then this was discussed at a session of the

19 municipal assembly. Other than that, nobody could order us to do anything

20 of this sort. I'm now talking about the period before the events, before

21 1992.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. And in fact, nobody could order me to do anything up until the

24 very time when I was replaced.

25 Q. All right. And then if you could just turn over the page. Item

Page 5655

1 number 4 -- and this is the 22nd of May, 1992. As far --

2 MS. KORNER: No. No. It's all right. He can just follow on.

3 Q. Item number 4 in the same document: "As far as disarming

4 paramilitary formations in Sanski Most is concerned, Colonel Basara and

5 Colonel Anicic are charged with putting this into practice."

6 Now, very simple question: Were you aware on the 22nd of May of

7 paramilitary forces in Sanski Most? In other words, Muslim or Croat

8 forces.

9 A. As far as I know, there weren't any. I think there weren't any.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, the -- the paragraph says

12 "paramilitary formations," it did you want say Muslim or Croat

13 paramilitary formations.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right, Mr. Ackerman.

15 MS. KORNER: Oh, I agree, Your Honour. But there's absolutely not

16 one iota of evidence that anybody else other than --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman. Please --


19 JUDGE AGIUS: Wait. Please finish what you are saying,

20 Ms. Korner, and then Mr. Ackerman will have his say as well.

21 MS. KORNER: If the suggestion is that this refers to Serbian

22 paramilitary forces, Your Honour, there's not one iota of evidence that

23 this order and all other orders reply to anything other than Muslim and

24 Croat.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

Page 5656

1 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, my objection -- I didn't invite

2 Ms. Korner to testify -- there were significant numbers of Serb

3 paramilitary formations that were seeking to be disarmed. So now I've

4 testified. But they were trying to disarm Serb paramilitary formations.

5 That was happening all across the country.


7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm talking about evidence that has been

8 called in this case so far, not evidence that will or may be called. But

9 in any event, I will ask the question --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please do.

11 MS. KORNER: -- In all forms.

12 Q. First, were there any paramilitary formations that you are aware

13 of which were either Muslim or Croat? Operating in Sanski Most on the

14 22nd of May?

15 A. I know that there weren't any.

16 Q. All right. Were there, however, any Serb paramilitary forces

17 operating in Sanski Most in -- on the 22nd of May?

18 A. "Paramilitary," that's a term that I would like to explain a

19 little bit. Everything was under the control of the military command of

20 the 6th Brigade -- Krajina Brigade in Sanski Most. Now, whether the SOS

21 was a paramilitary unit, perhaps it was. But it was under the command,

22 and they did things together and they had a joint command. There weren't

23 any other forces.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Next question.


Page 5657

1 Q. Can we move --

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Perhaps, Ms. Korner -- I mean, we are approaching

3 the break time.

4 MS. KORNER: Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Whenever it's convenient.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's convenient now. Can I say I will

7 complete my examination-in-chief before the next break.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Korner.

9 We'll break for 30 minutes. Thank you.

10 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.


13 Q. Yes. Could we move then, please, to the next document, which is

14 behind divider number 9, P638. Now, this document is apparently approved

15 by or comes from Colonel Anicic and is an order dated -- I'm not sure that

16 we've got a date, but clearly before the 26th of May sometime.

17 In paragraph number 1 -- oh, it's headed I'm sorry "Combat task

18 disarmament operation in Sanski Most."

19 In paragraph number 1, it refers to members of the HOS, the

20 Croatian defence forces and Green Berets which were inserted earlier have

21 joined up with hostile villages and towns in Sanski Most municipality.

22 With their help they have managed to form eight detachments, five

23 independent companies, and a number of independent platoons in Mahala and

24 various other places. The enemies intensively inserting individuals for

25 intelligence, reconnaissance, and sabotage tasks and in the unoccupied

Page 5658

1 territory of the town and its surroundings."

2 All I want to ask you about is Mahala, because that's where you

3 were based. Were you aware of companies, platoons, operating in Mahala?

4 If you could just answer "yes" or "no."

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. All right. Now, in fact, this document appears to be part of the

7 orders for the attack. If we go over the page, -- on our page, page 2 --

8 once the positions have been taken, use the Serbian Territorial Defence

9 units to prevent the insertion/operation of sabotage group. And after

10 artillery preparations, disarm the settlements of Mahala, Otoci, Muhici

11 and Marije Bursac and other neighbourhoods in coordination with the 6th

12 Brigade units in order to cause the enemy great human, material, and

13 technical losses. "Stand by for the attack at 0500 on the 26th of May.

14 Start of the attack at specific signal."

15 And then can we look just at paragraph 6. "The first Serbian

16 battalion has the task of organising the defence of Serbian populated

17 areas in the sectors. And it names a number of streets. Could you have

18 for a moment -- are those streets in the Sanski Most town itself or

19 elsewhere?

20 A. These streets are in Sanski Most, in the town.

21 Q. All right. Just very quickly, could we have a look at the map

22 again of Sanski Most, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 757.1.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's the one with the photographs on the

24 side. And there's a spare copy if ...

25 Q. Yes. If you could just indicate with the pointer where the --

Page 5659

1 those streets are roughly.

2 A. The area -- the Narodni front area is here, and this sports hall

3 is located in that area. This is the Narodni front neighbourhood. These

4 are the buildings you can see here. And this is Veljko Miljevic Street,

5 which goes as far as the bridge, which -- this entire street is Veljko

6 Miljevic Street. It's on the left bank of the Sana River. It's in the

7 centre of the town. It's the central -- it's the main street.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. This is the Narodni front neighbourhood, Alagica Polje

10 neighbourhood is the neighbourhood here to the left -- on the left-hand

11 side. This is Alagica Polje. In fact, Marije Bursac and Alagica Polje.

12 Cvijo Kukolj Street is here in Alagica Polje. This is the one which goes

13 through this -- which passes through this neighbourhood. That's the

14 central part here.

15 Q. All right. Thank you. And then the paragraph goes on to say:

16 "Upon completion of artillery operations, attack and search so as to

17 cause the enemy the greatest possible losses in manpower, material, and

18 equipment." And I think that's all we need look at in this document.

19 Could we move then, please, to the next document now, which is

20 Prosecutor's Exhibit P639, which is behind the next divider. And this is

21 "Conclusions of the Crisis Staff, dated the 23rd of May." And in

22 paragraph 3: "Issue a proclamation to the radio station --" I'm

23 sorry. "The question of disarming paramilitary formations of armed

24 individuals. Implement the conclusions from the previous Crisis Staff

25 meeting. Issue a proclamation to the radio station on Saturday, the 23rd

Page 5660

1 of May, 1992, to be read out every 20 minutes." Did you hear those

2 announcements? Just "yes" or "no."

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Thank you. Then could we move to Prosecutor's Exhibit, please,

5 641, which we can find behind divider 13. This is dated the -- or the

6 stamp is the 6th of June. But if we look at the document, it appears to

7 be dated the 26th of May. And "Pursuant to the conclusions of the Crisis

8 Staff, the civilian protection municipal staff hereby issues the

9 following: The displaced population which withdrew from the Mahala,

10 Muhici, and Otoci settlements to the Krkojevci area is to be transferred

11 by a San Trams [phoen] bus to the sports hall for care and consideration."

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Accommodation.

13 MS. KORNER: Sorry. Accommodation.

14 Q. Accommodation.

15 Just very -- well, actually, no. I think I'll deal --

16 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I think I'll deal with this

17 with another witness, because the witness can deal with the actual events

18 of the sports hall.

19 So can we move, please, to Prosecutor's Exhibit P642, a document

20 from the Krajina Corps dated the 27th of May, 1992.

21 Q. And in the end of the first paragraph, it states: "The situation

22 in Sanski Most is becoming increasingly complicated. At about 1500 hours

23 in the area of Sanski Most, the Green Braise attacked a convoy of buses

24 transporting conscripts, killing two conscripts and likely or seriously

25 wounding roughly 20 others. The command of the 30th Partisan Division

Page 5661

1 was ordered to send in a combat group to rescue the convoy."

2 Now, I think this was the day of your arrest, was it not, Judge?

3 A. I was arrested on the 25th of May, 1992.

4 Q. All right. In that case, you were already arrested. Do you know

5 anything about this incident? Did you hear from any of the people who

6 were brought into the prison anything about this incident, or any of the

7 guards? If you didn't, say so straight away, please.

8 A. I really didn't hear anything about such an incident occurring in

9 the area of Sanski Most.

10 Q. Thank you. Then can we move, please, to the next document, which

11 is P643, the same date. There are a series of documents about bodies that

12 I just want to look at because of your exhumation activities. "Order,

13 that the terrain in the area of Mahala, Otoci, and Muhici should be

14 sanitised. In order to carry out this order, the following shall be

15 done: Bodies must urgently be removed, identified, and buried in the

16 designated place, a marked burial site. Somebody called Kljuicic and

17 the burial service attached to the sanitation platoon in cooperation with

18 the court and medical bodies assigned by the authorised organ shall be

19 responsible for the carrying out of this order."

20 Now, the people who were killed when these areas were attacked,

21 were they buried in marked graves?

22 A. They were buried in a mass grave in Greda.

23 Q. And was that -- was that marked?

24 A. It wasn't marked. It had been levelled with the ground. When we

25 arrived there in 1995, the terrain was covered by grass. It had been

Page 5662

1 levelled with the ground. There was -- there were no markings. And only

2 some of the victims were there. There were two mass graves, in fact. We

3 don't know where some of the bodies are. Some of the bodies of the people

4 who were killed at the time.

5 Q. Okay. Could we then move very briefly then to look at the next

6 document, which is --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

8 MS. KORNER: Sorry.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, this document that we've just been

10 referring to, Exhibit P643.

11 MS. KORNER: Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: It has a date which is the 27th of May, 1992.

13 MS. KORNER: Mm-hm.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: And it refers to a specific area of Mahala, Otoci,

15 and Muhici. Does witness have an idea as to the number of persons that

16 remained killed -- were killed in this area on or around the said date?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 46 people were killed on the

18 27th of May in that area. 13 people were killed in one house. They were

19 mainly women and children.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. That's it. Thank you.


22 Q. Then -- it may be the next document that you can't help on

23 either. Could we just look, however briefly, at Prosecutor's Exhibit

24 P644, 28th of May -- actually, no. I'm sorry. I won't trouble, because

25 it's definitely out of the --

Page 5663

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, if we could just move --

2 Oh, yes. I'm sorry. Here we are.

3 Q. It's the paragraph 1: "In the Kljuc area, the situation has

4 deteriorated. Muslims are carrying out organised actions conducting

5 surprise and open attacks against military convoys and units moving along

6 the axis of the Krasulje village to Sanski Most."

7 Did you hear from anyone, either guards or fellow prisoners, about

8 any of this when you were in the police station at Sanski Most? And

9 again, if you didn't -- if you didn't, just say so straight away.

10 A. When I found out about this incident when I arrived in the Manjaca

11 camp.

12 Q. Just very briefly, was there an attack as described?

13 A. There was no attack. That was a Serbian checkpoint, and an

14 incident occurred involving the inhabitants of Krasulje. All house there

15 is are Muslim houses. The police erected -- set up a checkpoint there.

16 And blocked the area and there was a conflict which broke out and people

17 started shooting, and this policeman was killed on that occasion.

18 Q. All right. We can hear about that from --

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But the statement in the report, Judge, is

20 very specific, and it refers to open attacks against military convoys and

21 units moving. So we're not talking about a checkpoint, something

22 stationary, but something which is moving, being either a unit or a

23 military convoy. Can you enlighten us on this? Are you aware or were you

24 aware at the time of any such open attacks by Muslims against such

25 military convoys or moving units in the axis Krasulje area?

Page 5664

1 A. Up until the 25th of May, when I was arrested, and while I was in

2 prison I did not hear about incidents of -- of that kind.


4 Q. Yes.

5 A. I didn't hear about people attacking a military convoy and

6 shooting at it.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think the question is better directed

8 to other witnesses, so I'll leave that.

9 Q. Could we move then, please, to Prosecutor's Exhibit 645, which is

10 behind divider 17. Again -- and it refers to what you've already talked

11 about. The 28th of May, 1992: "Decision, the so-called Greda Muslim

12 cemetery has been designated for the burial of people killed in the Sanski

13 Most municipality. Those killed should be buried in a communal grave in

14 the presence of authorised officials without the usual rights, the

15 presence of family members. Those killed should be labelled with metal

16 tags. Each grave should be marked with a wooden plank --"

17 THE USHER: There's no B/C/S version.

18 MS. KORNER: That's quite right. There isn't one in my bundle

19 either.

20 Your Honour, I'm sorry. I don't know what happened. We seem to

21 have lost the B/C/S version there. Do Your Honours have it?

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We have it.

23 Ms. Korner, I have a note on -- there must have been an incident

24 on this document already because -- or else while I was sorting out the

25 papers myself, because I have a personal note saying -- which I put

Page 5665

1 "please replace P645 with this one." If I remember well, you had a

2 previous 645 which you asked to replace, this being the B/C/S version

3 MS. KORNER: I don't -- I mean, I couldn't swear to it, Your

4 Honour, but I can't imagine -- because we -- we only numbered these quite

5 later on.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But it's -- definitely I had another 645

7 which had nothing to do presumably with this 645, which could have been my

8 mistake. I mean, it's -- I'm not saying that -- or I'm not saying that it

9 was a mistake in any case. But it certainly exists in the B/C/S version.

10 I have it.

11 MS. KORNER: All right. Well, if the registry have it -- no they

12 probably don't, because they --

13 MR. ACKERMAN: You can give mine to the witness.

14 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much. Very grateful, Mr. Ackerman.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: It's marked -- for whatever it's worth, the top

16 right you have "3.21" in the English version.

17 MS. KORNER: Correct.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: But 3.24 in the B/C/S version. This is -- this is

19 probably what happened. This is why --

20 MS. KORNER: It may be that that's right, Your Honour. It's gone

21 somewhere else by mistake. But we'll -- we'll make sure that there are

22 copies produced for the registry so they can mark it A and B in the normal

23 way.



Page 5666

1 Q. In any event, if you've had a chance to read through that, Judge,

2 it was said that they were to be labelled with metal tags and that there

3 was a wooden plank bearing the identification number. When you came back

4 on -- in 1995, do I take it that there was no indication of the number or

5 the metal tags?

6 A. When the exhumation of the Greda mass grave was carried out, I

7 think there were 25 bodies in one of the mass graves. Metal tags were

8 found there. They were the -- approximately 1 by 1 centimetre large, but

9 there were no such tags in any other grave. I found these metal tags in

10 the public utility company in Sanski Most, and I do have some of them.

11 Q. That's all right. I don't think -- you don't have it here though,

12 do you?

13 A. No, I don't have them with me. But I did hand over a tag of this

14 kind to one of the investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor in 1996.

15 That was Mrs. Jutta.

16 Q. Oh. Yes?

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Judge, forget for the time being the exhumation

18 site, the mass grave site, you referred to in your evidence already, but

19 my question to you is a very simple one: Were any of the persons killed

20 in the Sanski Most municipality at the time we're talking about, roughly

21 end of May 1992, actually buried in the Greda Muslim cemetery? And if

22 they were, are you aware or can you tell us whether the place, the tomb

23 where they were buried, whether a wooden plank bearing the identification

24 number of the deceased was placed there.

25 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour --

Page 5667

1 JUDGE AGIUS: We're talking of the Greda Muslim cemetery. Not

2 the exhumation site.

3 MS. KORNER: No. He said earlier -- sorry, Your Honour -- when I

4 dealt with the first document that that's where they were buried, the

5 people who were killed in this particular cemetery.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Even the Greda mass grave.

7 MS. KORNER: This is this is what he's talking about.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Where it was exhumed.

9 MS. KORNER: Yes.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Was that part of the cemetery itself?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. But there were no markings,

12 and nobody knew that it was there. It was part of the terrain where there

13 were no graves. No bodies had been buried there previously.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I fail to understand.

15 This Greda Muslim cemetery, how big was it?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, approximately 100 metres by

17 150 metres.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: And it was used regularly before the conflict.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. That was the

20 Muslim cemetery in the town.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: So was the mass grave then dug up inside the

22 perimeters of the cemetery or outside?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you could say that it was

24 within the perimeter of the cemetery.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: And during this period, if, for example, you wanted

Page 5668

1 to -- I don't know what's the custom in your country. But if you want to

2 visit the grave site of your family in this cemetery, as we regularly do

3 in my country, were you allowed free access to it or was that restrained

4 or prohibited at the time?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that time access was prohibited.

6 Muslims were prohibited from going to the cemetery, except subject to

7 their approval. They would sometimes allow a burial to go on, but the

8 number of people who were allowed to attend was limited to five and

9 sometimes even less. That was the situation between 1992 and 1995.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: So the situation seems to be the following -- the

11 position seems to be the following, that the people killed in Sanski Most

12 municipality were actually buried inside the perimeters of Greda Muslim

13 cemetery. There, as a result of the exhumations carried out, you did

14 establish that the corpses had metal tags. The only thing that was

15 missing is the wooden planks marking the site where each individual person

16 killed was buried. That's the only thing that was missing, with the

17 result that one would not be in a position to know where the burial site

18 was, in other words.

19 THE WITNESS: The bodies had been collected in locations where the

20 people were killed, and they were buried as they were, in a mass grave.

21 They were put one next to another, and the length was 25 metres. The

22 width was between 1 metre 50 and 2, and the depth was 2 metres 50 or 3

23 metres. And then the ground was levelled, and there were no markings.


25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Above ground.

Page 5669

1 JUDGE AGIUS: That's enough. I think I have a clearer picture.

2 Because the idea that I had got was completely different. So it's my

3 fault definitely. Now it's clear.


5 Q. Could you just take the map again, 757.1, just very quickly and

6 just indicate to us where the cemetery was located.

7 A. The Greda cemetery is here.

8 Q. So close --

9 A. This area here.

10 Q. So close to the Partisan cemetery.

11 A. I'm sorry -- yes. Yes. That's correct. That's Susnjar, the

12 Partisan cemetery, and this here is Greda. And between these two

13 cemeteries, there's also the Serbian, the Catholic, and the Jewish

14 cemeteries. So this entire area here is used for cemeteries.

15 Q. Thank you. Yes, thank you very much.

16 Can we --

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I can just note in passing as I go

18 through the next document in the bundle which has already been marked

19 Exhibit 211 is simply -- it shows the Crisis Staff decision from the --

20 the regional Crisis Staff was forwarded to Sanski Most.

21 Then could we look, please, next at document numbered Prosecutor's

22 Exhibit 648, which can be found behind divider 21. It's a Crisis Staff

23 decision of the 30th of May, 1992. It talks about the people accommodated

24 in the sports hall. And then at the bottom -- and citizens who have not

25 been affected by combat operations and not warned to leave the area should

Page 5670

1 stay where they were or return. "Condemnation of looting, arson, and

2 destruction of unprotected property."

3 And finally 5: "The Red Cross and other humanitarian

4 organisations, charities, and individuals shall provide assistance in

5 taking care of refugees from our area and elsewhere."

6 Apparently this was sent to the Sanski Most radio station. Were

7 you aware of the Red Cross giving assistance at any stage around this

8 period of time, the 30th of May -- end of May, beginning of June?

9 A. Bosniak and Croat citizens did not have any access to the Serbian

10 Red Cross. They provided food for their own refugees, those who had

11 allegedly come to Sanski Most from other areas. I know that for a fact

12 because my mother still remembers those days. And the woman who worked in

13 the Red Cross, our neighbour, she asked them to give her some cans and

14 some bread and they refused to give her any, saying that this was not for

15 them. And she still remembers it, and she refuses to even look at that

16 woman who worked in the Red Cross.

17 Q. Okay. Can we move then, please, to the next document,

18 Prosecutor's Exhibit 649. Now, this is one I think you personally handed

19 to Ms. Paczulla from the Office of the Prosecutor. It's a proclamation

20 issued apparently by -- to the Crisis Staff by the Sanski Most SOS

21 dissociating themselves from the repeated and in recent times increasingly

22 frequent hostile propaganda reports about the behaviour of the SOS asking

23 for protection, stating that, "All our actions we have taken so far were

24 intended to protect citizen and their property, their rights and freedoms.

25 These actions were undertaken in agreement with the legal authorities, the

Page 5671

1 official bodies, and the command of the 6th Krajina Brigade." And ending

2 up by saying that they've decided to leave, "Fight for the Serbian cause

3 outside the area of Sanski Most in the territory of the Autonomous Region

4 of Krajina. Only unity can save the Serbs."

5 Now, I don't know. Did you ever hear this proclamation or

6 announcement on the radio whilst you were in prison? You told us you

7 heard quite a lot of radio broadcasts.

8 A. I did not hear this proclamation on the radio.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. But if I may say just very briefly, this is a proclamation made by

11 the SOS addressed to the Crisis Staff.

12 Q. Yes. Yes. We -- I don't think I'd said that. Sorry.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Korner.

14 Judge, be patient with me, please. In the English version that I

15 have right in front of me here, I have indicated the following: That

16 there is a stamp which says "Serbian defence forces." And then there is a

17 note "SM-66/2 added by hand." Now, if you look at the document in your

18 language, there is indeed a stamp. Next to it, there is "SOS Sanski

19 Most." We are not concerned about that. To the left, there is indeed a

20 note saying "SM-66/2." There is a stamp. Can you tell me what are the

21 words that appear on that stamp and whether I am right in suggesting to

22 you also that although in the English version I have "Serbian defence

23 forces," there is also the words "SOS" appearing on that stamp in your

24 language.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The stamp reads: "Serbian defence

Page 5672

1 forces Sanski Most." That's written around the stamp. And then on the

2 inside, there is the abbreviation "SOS," and then there is also the 4-S

3 emblem. And to the right, there is the signature of the person who

4 actually signed this document on behalf of the SOS.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: What was that 4-S emblem supposed to be? What does

6 it stand for? Whose emblem is that?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is the Serbian emblem, the

8 emblem of the SDS. But it was accepted also as the national emblem.


10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the "SOS" stands for "Serbian

11 defence forces."

12 JUDGE AGIUS: That is correct. That, I know.

13 Yes, thank you, Ms. Korner. I am really concerned that some --

14 something like this is omitted from the English version, because it's ...

15 MS. KORNER: Well, I think, Your Honour, we've already looked at

16 this problem before. Each translator is --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think I have to concentrate to the extent

18 that I have to check every single document once, twice, to make sure that

19 the translation is perfect and that nothing important or not important --

20 I don't know. If it's a translation, there should be nothing, absolutely

21 nothing omitted.

22 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we can only say, as I think I've had a

23 number of occasions before, our ability to carefully check each

24 translation is very limited. We have to rely on the translators. And

25 it's only when one comes to look at individual documents in this way that

Page 5673

1 one sees -- one notices matters.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

3 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, while that matter is on the floor, so

4 to speak, if -- just for guidance, if we find a document that has been

5 mistranslated --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Please. And you have in the past already.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes. How would you like us to bring that to your

8 attention.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Bring it to our attention in the -- in the -- in

10 whichever way you prefer. But it is important.


12 JUDGE AGIUS: Because documents can be neutral, can be in favour

13 of the Defence, or can be in favour of the Prosecution. We have a duty to

14 make sure -- a responsibility to make sure that if there is a document

15 which is translated -- and we will be looking at the English

16 translation -- that we are not misled into looking at something and

17 reading something which does not represent faithfully the original. I

18 mean, that's -- so if there are any documents of the kind, Mr. Ackerman -

19 and there have been, because you -- you have signalled some of them in the

20 course of the proceedings - if there are any more, please let us know.

21 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, we found one last night. It's a case of

22 an incomplete translation, and we'll bring it to your attention tomorrow.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please do. Please do.

24 I know also that I am facing you, Ms. Korner, with this problem.

25 I know that it is not -- it cannot be attributed to you or that you are in

Page 5674

1 any way responsible for it. I mean, I know that -- you are not

2 accountable for the translation efforts or mistakes of the translators.

3 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: But you must I'm sure agree that this is important.

5 You know, I mean --

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I fully agree. And I do accept

7 responsibility, although I can't check it. But it is like everything

8 here, when possible -- certainly Ms. Richterova who does read the language

9 occasionally has picked up real errors in translation. But for the rest

10 of us, it's just a matter of, you know, hoping that it's properly done.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, yes.

12 MS. KORNER: But as I say I'm grateful to Mr. Ackerman or his team

13 or indeed Madam Fauveau could bring it to our attention, we will try and

14 get it corrected straight away. And we have, of course, through witnesses

15 also spotted errors.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Saying, for example -- again, I mean something which

17 may be less important but which is nevertheless important. If you look at

18 the Serb -- Serbian/Croat version, you will see that the last paragraph,

19 first two lines, second line being incomplete, are underlined.

20 MS. KORNER: Mm-hm.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, on previous occasions, this was indicated --

22 for example, if you look at the previous document, 648, whatever is

23 underlined in the Serbo-Croat document is underlined in the English

24 version. In this particular document, 649, this is not the case. Why do

25 I have to look and compare the two versions -- fortunately this is just

Page 5675

1 one page. But it could -- we could be speaking of -- of a document which

2 is 100 pages long. Why do I have to -- to make this exercise all the way

3 to see whether -- whatever was underlined in the original has been

4 underlined in the English version and so on and so forth. I mean, it's --

5 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I think all that has been said --

6 and maybe it's repetitive -- that we can -- witnesses when they're going

7 through the documents draw things to our attention. Equally, if there's

8 something important the Defence notice, no doubt they'll bring it to the

9 attention, and we'll try and do the same. But translation is not a

10 computer-style art. It is an art.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I know.

12 MS. KORNER: And I'm afraid it's a matter that perhaps Your Honour

13 may wish to raise with the translation department.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I will, once I have a little bit more flesh on the

15 bones, because I'm not going to raise the matter on -- with the

16 translation department only because of one single document. Obviously. I

17 mean, it's ...


19 Q. Yes. Can we just please, then, move to the next document, which

20 is marked Prosecutor's Exhibit P218. It's the following divider. Dated

21 the 30th of May, and it lists -- it's conclusions of the Crisis Staff --

22 lists the members and their various jobs. And here we can see that apart

23 from the people that you've mentioned, Mr. Savanovic, who's come up quite

24 a lot, was president of the club of deputies of the SDS assembly. And

25 there we I see Branko Basara, the 6th Krajina Brigade commander. "Crisis

Page 5676

1 Staff meetings must be held every day." And then this one, circled -- in

2 the B/C/S version it's circled, so -- Your Honour should be happy that the

3 translator there has done that.

4 "A long-term solution is to be found for the problem of refugees

5 from the Mahala area as well as the Muslims and Croats who are not loyal

6 to the constitution and laws of the Serbian Republic of BH, which means

7 that is all those who have not taken up arms and want to change their

8 municipality are to be allowed to move away. Also make contact with the

9 leadership of the Autonomous Region of Krajina regarding implementation of

10 the idea on resettlement of the population."

11 You told us that before you were imprisoned, numbers of Muslims

12 and Croats had left the municipality. As far as people in the Mahala

13 area -- because that's what it refers to -- were concerned, from your

14 knowledge after the attack were they resettled by the -- the Crisis Staff

15 or did they leave of their own accord? In other words, under their own

16 steam.

17 A. The population of Mahala had been expelled from Mahala and indeed

18 from Sanski Most. The first transport took place, I think, on the 3rd of

19 June. Around seven or eight hundred people -- women, children, men -- of

20 various ages. They first took them to Mrkonjic Grad, intending to kick

21 them out to Jajce and Travnik. But since they failed to do so due to some

22 events that were taking place there, they brought the transport back and

23 then took them to Bosanska Krupa right away and let them go across the

24 bridge.

25 Q. Yes. I think you told us --

Page 5677

1 A. Towards Kladusa.

2 Q. Thank you. Okay. Could we move, please, to the next document.

3 And effectively this is on the same theme -- Exhibit P650 -- and really I

4 think relates to what we've seen in the earlier documents, that the

5 "Serbian Territorial Defence shall prevent all persons from entering the

6 Mahala area except for authorised organs who are involved in mopping up."

7 Can I just ask you, the word has been translated as "mopping up."

8 Could you tell us what the actual -- if you can -- what the word is - I'm

9 sorry - and how you understand it. What's the actual word in B/C/S?

10 A. I will read it. "The Crisis Staff issues an order to the Serbian

11 Territorial Defence tasking it -- tasking the Serbian Territorial Defence

12 with blocking the entrance -- in other words, prohibiting -- to block,

13 means to stop --

14 Q. Yes?

15 A. -- People from entering the area of Mahala.

16 Q. Right. Except for -- I understand that. It's the word that I

17 want to know about. What do you understand -- what is your understanding

18 of the word in your own language which is translated to us as "mopping

19 up"? What does that actually mean to you?

20 A. I'm really sorry. I don't understand the word "mopping up" as it

21 was said in the original.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment.

23 MS. KORNER: Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: I quite agree with you that it was simple enough.

25 But let me try and simplify it further.

Page 5678

1 Please look at the last four words in that order. Could you read

2 them in your own language.

3 THE WITNESS: [B/C/S spoken]

4 JUDGE AGIUS: What do they mean?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That means that the services that

6 have been authorised or charged by the Crisis Staff are allowed to enter

7 Mahala and clean it up.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: For what purpose? Clean it up.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to my mind, that would be

10 the removal of the dead bodies and also the searching of the various

11 buildings and also looting.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... Thank you.

13 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour. I'm grateful for

14 all help.

15 Q. Could we now move, please, then to Prosecutor's Exhibit P --

16 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I have to --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Interject in this. We have official interpreters,

19 Your Honour, and the -- I'm sitting here next to someone who knows the

20 language. The language used has nothing to do with removal of dead bodies

21 and looting.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I know that. It definitely means cleaning up.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: She tells me that the more accurate interpretation

24 is "cleaning up."

25 JUDGE AGIUS: Cleaning up. Yes. That's how I understood it. You

Page 5679

1 are right, Mr. Ackerman. The rest is how the witness understands it.

2 But ...

3 MS. KORNER: I agreement Your Honour, it -- I absolutely agree

4 that the literal translation is --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Is "cleaning it up."

6 MS. KORNER: Is "cleaning it up." Yes.

7 Q. Sorry, can we move -- I said I'd try and finish before the

8 break -- to the next document, please, Exhibit -- Prosecutor's Exhibit

9 652. This, I think, is a document simply to note because you provided it

10 directly yourself. It's another executive committee decision -- or

11 minutes of a session. I'm sorry. So we can leave that, please.

12 653 -- the next document, Prosecutor's Exhibit 653. This is a

13 military document of sorts, it looks like. Yes, because it's signed by

14 Colonel Basara -- dated the 1st of June, 1992, containing some orders.

15 Order 1: "All soldiers drinking, et cetera, should be discharged.

16 All soldiers prone to committing genocide against people, unable to

17 conduct an armed struggle, must be discharged. All soldiers prone to

18 burning down and destroying buildings from which the enemy is not

19 opening fire at the unit must be discharged," et cetera.

20 And then this. 2: "In future B/D -- I'm not sure what that's

21 supposed to mean -- anyhow, we must not repeat the mistakes we have made

22 before in the treatment of prisoners. No one has the right to beat or

23 abuse prisoners when they are brought in until questioning has been

24 carried out. Any soldier who abuses prisoners must be discharged from the

25 unit without delay."

Page 5680

1 You remained in the prison at the police station until the 17th of

2 June. This is dated the 1st of June. Was there a difference that you

3 noted in any of your treatment, those of you who --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Let -- Madam Fauveau, let her finish the

5 question first, and then I'll hear your objection.

6 Ms. Korner, please.


8 Q. Was there any difference, first of all, that you noted in the

9 treatment you were receiving; and second, from people who were being

10 brought into the prison by the army?

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Before you proceed to answer the question,

12 Judge, let me hear Madam Fauveau's objection. Thank you.

13 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't see

14 how in a police station the treatment of prisoners could have been

15 different on the basis of a military order. On the other hand, what

16 Mrs. Korner added about the persons who had been brought in by the

17 military police, I doubt that the witness was able to see by whom the

18 other prisoners had been brought in. And in addition, I doubt that the

19 witness is in a position to know what happened before the prisoners were

20 brought into the police station.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, do you -- do you want to comment on that

22 objection before I decide it.

23 MS. KORNER: I take the -- I take the objection as justified to

24 the first part of question. I think that does -- on reflection, that's

25 right.

Page 5681

1 As far as the second part is concerned, he said there were people

2 being brought into his cell all the time who had been arrested by the

3 military police. I'm entitled to ask whether he noticed any signs --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I think first you ask him whether he is --

5 whether he can confirm to us that they were indeed arrested by the

6 military police.

7 MS. KORNER: Yes.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: If his answer is yes, we'll proceed. If his answer

9 is "I don't know, I can't confirm," then we'll see.

10 MS. KORNER: Very well.

11 Q. Judge, you've heard that. Do you know whether prisoners who were

12 brought in whilst you were at the police station were arrested by military

13 police or soldiers?

14 A. While I was in prison in the police station, there was a total of

15 16 or 17 of us. We were arrested in the first three days. So that's the

16 25th, the 26th and the 27th -- and perhaps on the 28th too. This figure

17 did not change.

18 Q. I see.

19 A. We were not in a position to know what was happening.

20 Q. Well, I'm grateful.

21 MS. KORNER: In that case, I've decide not to pursue it.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: So your question ends there, Ms. Korner.

23 MS. KORNER: It does. It does.

24 Q. All right. Could we move then, please, to the next document,

25 Prosecutor's Exhibit 380, which is -- yes. Actually I'm not sure?

Page 5682

1 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm conscious of the time. So I think

2 I'll leave that. It deals with the actions in Kamicak and Vrhpolje.

3 But I don't think there's much point in asking this witness.

4 Q. Prosecutor's Exhibit, please -- I'm sorry. I've lost -- yes. I'm

5 sorry. I've lost my -- that was 380 -- 658, which is after divider 33.

6 Now, again we're back to the subject of graves. An order by the

7 municipal civilian protection staff, dated the 2nd of June, 1992. "In

8 order to clear the area of Vrhpolje and Hrustovo from the destruction of

9 war, bodies should urgently be recovered, identified, and buried in the

10 designated place, a marked burial site."

11 Very simply, you described the exhumations. Were any of those

12 marked burial sites?

13 A. This order is comical. All the graves in Vrhpolje and Hrustovo

14 were concealed. No one knew where they were. There were no markings of

15 any kind. We searched for these graves. We -- they were dug at night.

16 We examined them. They were dug at night with heavy machines. And this

17 was done by people from the Serbian side who were trusted.

18 Q. All right. Thank you. Could we move then, please, very quickly

19 to Prosecutor's Exhibit -- sorry. I've now lost it. Sorry -- yes, 661,

20 please, which is behind divider number 37. A Crisis Staff decision dated

21 the 4th of June, 1992 where the conclusion number 1 is that "Vrucinic,

22 Rasula, and Anicic shall be in charge of resolving the issue of prisoners

23 and their categorisation and deportation to Manjaca. First category:

24 Politicians. Second category: Nationalist extremists. Third category:

25 People unwelcome in Sanski Most municipality. In view of this, have a

Page 5683

1 talk with Colonel Stevilovic [phoen] from the 1st Krajina Corps." You

2 told us that the first transport from the prison to Manjaca was the 6th of

3 June.

4 A. Perhaps on the 3rd of June too.

5 Q. I see. It's alleged that the first category of persons to be

6 taken to Manjaca was politicians. Did that equate with what happened?

7 Were the first people who went from your prison politicians?

8 A. It's difficult for me to say whether they were politicians. They

9 were ordinary people. I was transported on the 17th of June. The SDA

10 politicians, I think they stayed on till the last, in the Krings Hall and

11 in the prison and in the Betonirka place. And it wasn't until August that

12 they were transported. They were the last to be transported. If we are

13 referring to the leadership of the SDA party, of HDZ party, and so on.

14 Q. Thank you. All right. Can we then move, please, to Prosecutor's

15 Exhibit P665, which is behind divider 41. A Crisis Staff conclusion of

16 the 6th of June, ordering the public security station to evacuate 150

17 prisoners and take them to Manjaca. So I think that's just confirming

18 really the date that was in that original decision.

19 Prosecutor's Exhibit -- could you move on please, to, Prosecutor's

20 Exhibit -- well, no. Don't move.

21 MS. KORNER: Just to note in passing, Your Honour, that's repeated

22 again with the same date. It's the actual order, I think.

23 Q. So could we come, please, to document P667, behind divider 43.

24 And this, I think, is a document that you yourself handed over to the

25 representative of the Office of the Prosecutor. I think it goes along

Page 5684

1 with some of the lists you produced yesterday. But can you just tell us

2 where you found this list or where this list came from.

3 A. This list comes from the service of the interior, the public

4 security station in Sanski Most. I took it from the documents in the

5 file, which I spoke about yesterday.

6 Q. Right. And then if we look at the next document as well, which is

7 P668. I think we'll find it's the same list but with effectively what

8 action has been taken in respect of some of these people.

9 And the third -- the third one is a list of what's headed "The

10 most radical extremists in the area of Sanski Most." And I think you've

11 already told us quite a lot about these people. We note that number 50 is

12 Mirzet Karabeg. 49 is Suad -- is that Sabic or Sahic?

13 A. Sabic.

14 Q. Yes. It's quite difficult if one looks at the original?

15 A. Under number 42, Hase Osmancevic.

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. They're ordinary citizens, respected citizens from Sanski Most and

18 from the neighbourhoods, both of Muslim and Croatian nationality but

19 mainly of Muslim nationality.

20 Q. And can we -- sorry. And can we take it that comes also from the

21 files held at the public security station?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner, just in the second page of Exhibit P668,

24 before this list of the most radical extremists. I notice under number

25 60, the witness's own name. If he can confirm that. And next to it,

Page 5685

1 there is a note saying "renew talk," and something illegible, "meeting

2 with policemen." And "meeting with policemen" seems to be one of the

3 reasons for which he may have been arrested in the first place if you look

4 at the notes against some of the other names, like "arms smuggling,"

5 "renew questioning."

6 MS. KORNER: Yes.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: "Renew talk link with R. about brother, Colonel

8 Metahalagic [phoen]," and so on and so forth. So perhaps witness can --

9 if he has some information to give us on this, he can perhaps tell us.


11 Q. Perhaps you could look -- could you read to us if you can read it,

12 because the translator couldn't, what's said against your name?

13 A. It says "renew talk." And there is a word here that I can't

14 understand. And then it says "a meeting with policemen." I can read

15 that. When I was in Manjaca camp, these criminal inspectors, Branko Sobot

16 and Milan Dobrijevic, also called Mima, and a member of the state security

17 from Prijedor who was responsible for Sanski Most, Jugoslav Rodic, they

18 took me out to be questioned and I was questioned -- or rather, I was told

19 that I had been at a meeting for the formation of the Muslim police.

20 Q. All right.

21 A. I spoke to them on that occasion, and naturally I was afraid

22 because I thought that in the course of that questioning I would be

23 killed. That was the meeting when the policemen, Bosniaks and Croats,

24 were expelled from the public security station. And after that, they held

25 a meeting in the fire brigade hall in Sanski Most. That would be it.

Page 5686

1 Q. Well, anyhow, you're no doubt happy to note that you're not

2 regarded as one of the most radical extremists.

3 Yes. Can we move, please, to the next document in the list that I

4 want you to look at, Prosecutor's Exhibit 673, which can be found behind

5 divider 51?

6 A. Sorry. Just a minute. These people were not extremists.

7 Q. No.

8 A. The people included in this list that you have mentioned.

9 Q. Yes, I -- you said that. I'm sorry. It was an inappropriate

10 remark, Judge, and I apologise.

11 Can I ask you to look now at 673, which is behind divider number

12 51. This is an official note in respect of an incident that I think you

13 mentioned apparently. On the 11th of June, a convoy of -- from Sanski

14 Most to Manjaca containing 51 persons with an escort, and then on the

15 section of road from Kozice to Hazici the first vehicle broke down and

16 when the convoy stopped on a blind corner the persons began to jump out.

17 We tried to prevent this by firing shots into the air in order to frighten

18 them and then continued on our way to Manjaca. When we arrived at the

19 barracks in Manjaca and were handing the persons over, we found out that

20 six were missing." And it list it is names of the six. Do you know

21 anything about that incident from people you spoke to at Manjaca?

22 A. When this group arrived in Manjaca -- rather, when I arrived in

23 Manjaca, because this group had arrived before me and when I was

24 transferred from the stables where I was being kept in isolation to barn

25 number 1, I then found out from the people in that barn, from people who

Page 5687

1 had been in that convoy, that two groups of our people, of our fellow

2 citizens, had been returned from Manjaca in those lorries in which they

3 had been brought there. One of them had even been killed in Manjaca

4 itself, because these people had been beaten in Manjaca and were then put

5 back in the lorry. That was on the 6th of June and on the 12th of June --

6 or perhaps on the 11th of June. I think it was on the 12th.

7 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. Could I stop for a moment. I just want to make

8 sure we're on the same wavelength. This is apparently reporting that on

9 the 11th of June, six people escaped from a transport to Manjaca. Do you

10 know whether or not that is an accurate reflection of what happened?

11 That's all I'm asking. If you don't -- if you don't know about this

12 particular incident, say so.

13 A. Well, this is an official note made by Milorad Krunic, an

14 official, on the 11th of June, 1992. I think he is referring to an event

15 that took place on the 6th of June.

16 Q. All right. I think that perhaps we better leave -- leave it,

17 because it may be that -- but are you -- I'm sorry. Can I ask -- are you

18 aware, were you ever told by anyone after you mixed with your fellow

19 prisoners in Manjaca that there had been six people who had managed to

20 escape from a transport?

21 A. Never. I was never told that people had escaped from a

22 transport. This is pure fabrication. Those people would have appeared

23 somewhere by now and we would have found out that they were either alive

24 or dead.

25 Q. Do you know any of these people?

Page 5688

1 A. If they had escaped from a transport. That's not correct.

2 Q. But --

3 A. Because Danilusko's letter provides an answer to this, provides an

4 answer to your question.

5 Q. Yes. Of the -- I'm sorry. Are you --

6 A. The letter I spoke about a few days ago here.

7 Q. Yes. Are you saying these are the people that were killed by

8 Kajtez?

9 A. Yes, that's what I'm saying. They were killed by the people who

10 escorted them, who took them to Manjaca and who returned them from

11 Manjaca. They killed them on the way from Manjaca to Sanski Most. And to

12 this very day, we don't know where their grave is.

13 Q. Yes.

14 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, that's my --

15 A. Some Serbs told us about a location which we have been examining.

16 Q. Right.

17 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, it's my fault. I should have -- I

18 forgot to tie up the names that -- with this.

19 Q. All right. And I think that's the only other document in this

20 volume that I want you to look at?

21 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I generally thought I could

22 finish, but with the discussion -- I don't have that many documents in

23 volume 2, except that it may be -- if Your Honour wants to take a break.

24 I think I will now take the rest of the session.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: That's okay. Sorry about that --

Page 5689

1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Sorry about that, Mr. Ackerman, and Madam Fauveau,

3 because presumably you were gearing up to start your cross-examination

4 just after the break. I apologise to you. It's something on which we

5 have no control. And -- yeah. We'll continue in 30 minutes' time. Thank

6 you.

7 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

9 MS. KORNER: If the witness could be given volume 2 of the Sanski

10 Most documents.

11 Q. Could we start with the document, please, P680, which is

12 immediately -- the first document in the bundle.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: And of course, Ms. Korner, it's the last document in

14 mine.

15 MS. KORNER: I had hoped that Your Honours' secretary had been put

16 back to work and to redo it last night.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I asked her, actually. I mean, her idea was

18 that eventually -- she has filed -- or she is filing all the exhibits of

19 the Prosecution and of the Defence sequentially, as I had instructed her

20 to in the beginning, only that then she has to dig up some of them as we

21 proceed from one witness to another. And she said she finds it easier

22 than to put them back where they belong that way rather than having them

23 filed. And maybe she's -- she's not off the mark, because I can quite

24 understand that makes her life easier, at least, and also mine to an

25 extent.

Page 5690

1 MS. KORNER: Yes. But the sequentially -- it doesn't help.

2 Because Your Honour -- what happened -- the reason why it doesn't work

3 entirely is one, when Dr. Donia was here, they were all given exhibit

4 numbers. But these exhibits in one -- onwards. But these exhibits then

5 reappear in the various binders.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. This is it. So then she knows where to find

7 them because they are exhibited in sequence.

8 MS. KORNER: Yes.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: And then she -- once for example, we're finished

10 with this witness and we're talking of Exhibits 82, 160, which do not

11 really belong to the Sanski Most municipality but they come from the Banja

12 Luka one. So they go back where they belong.

13 But anyway, let's proceed with the questioning.

14 MS. KORNER: All right.

15 Q. This is really just a report upon -- from the SJB to the CSB about

16 the events that I think we've already dealt with, describing -- and I

17 think I needn't ask you about this, because it describes the action

18 of peaceful disarming and surrendering of weapons carried out in the

19 period between the 10th and 25th of May. And during this period, "The

20 Muslim and Croatian population handed over only hunting weapons and other

21 legally owned weapons but illegally obtained military weapons were not

22 surrendered and were concealed." And it perhaps answers the question as

23 to whether Muslims and Croats were allowed to keep legally registered

24 weapons. And then it describes the various actions from the point of view

25 of the SJB against Mahala and the other places.

Page 5691

1 It does describe -- can I just ask you this: From your

2 investigations, it states that in the Muslim villages of Vrhpolje and

3 Hrustovo, there was a Muslim force of 800 men broken up and military

4 defeated while the houses were destroyed and burnt down. Army units

5 casualties amounted to 12 men killed and eight wounded. Of the number

6 of killed and wounded on the other side is unknown. Now, just very

7 simply, from your investigations into these attacks on Vrhpolje and

8 Hrustovo, would you agree with a figure of 800 men -- the Muslim force of

9 800 men?

10 A. I have already mentioned -- I think, in fact, I said so yesterday

11 in my testimony -- that the only resistance in the Sanski Most

12 municipality was offered in Vrhpolje, that a group of people refused to

13 surrender their weapons and they defended their own homes and their own

14 village. According to my estimate, there were about 300 of them. That's

15 my estimate, again. The number may vary, but the figure of 800 is out of

16 the question. At that time I'm not even sure whether there was a total of

17 800 inhabitants there. I'm not sure. I don't know, as I said.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you. All right. Can we now move, please, to

19 document -- Prosecution's Exhibit 682, which is behind divider 3. It's a

20 document dated the 17th of June, so it's the day that you were transferred

21 to Manjaca -- talking about the situation with the prisons. And

22 effectively, it -- I think you probably agree with its comments,

23 forgetting about the reasons for it. But the -- "A large number of

24 prisoners, mostly of Muslim nationality has appeared in the -- the SJB due

25 to combat disarming operations, et cetera. This brings with it a series

Page 5692

1 of problems such as accommodation of prisoners, their food, healthcare,

2 visits by family members, which the SJB has neither the training nor

3 the equipment to handle. That is why we are asking you help us and

4 intervene with the authorities of the Autonomous Region of Krajina and the

5 municipality so that the status of the prisoners is determined."

6 Just one very simple question. I think you said your wife -- your

7 family had already left. Were other prisoners in your cell receiving

8 visits from family members?

9 A. While I was there in the cell, no family members were able to get

10 in there. However, on one occasion -- and I learnt that from the

11 police -- my mother came to the police station to the duty officer and she

12 handed over to them some cartons of juice. And then they gave these

13 cartons to me. I think that there were some other cases like that

14 involving some other prisoners. Later on this stopped. And then I heard

15 that my mother had been expelled and had to go to Kladusa.

16 Q. Okay. I think we can just note the next document, 683, because

17 that was in direction or order to Colonel Anicic from the Crisis Staff

18 saying that some of the detainees in the sports hall should go after

19 screening.

20 Can we go to document, please, 688, which we will find behind --

21 P688, behind divider -- at 9.

22 MS. KORNER: And again, Your Honour, this is just a note, in fact,

23 because it's again -- it's one of the decisions of the Crisis Staff that

24 appeared in Sanski Most relating to the dismissals.

25 Q. 690, at divider 11, please. This is a Crisis Staff Sanski Most

Page 5693

1 decision of the 22nd of June. And it explains: "The realisation of the

2 conclusions of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina" --

3 A. The 23rd.

4 Q. I'm sorry. Yes. You're quite right. It's the 23rd of June and

5 talks about a session of the 22nd.

6 I just want to ask you this: At item F, it says: "Form camp

7 in -- in [Realtime transcript read in error "Sanica"] Sitnica for the

8 territory of the 2nd Krajina Corps of the army of the Republic of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina." Where was -- was that in the area of Sanski Most?

10 A. Let me find it.

11 Q. It's 2(F). It's on the first page, I think. Yes, on the first

12 page. I just want to know whether Sitnica.

13 A. Sitnica.

14 Q. It's Sitnica, not Sanica. It's in the immediate vicinity of

15 Manjaca.

16 Q. Oh?

17 A. On the road between Cadjavica as you go from Mrkonjic Grad towards

18 Kljuc in the direction of Banja Luka. That's where Sitnica is. That's in

19 the municipality of Banja Luka.

20 Q. Okay. Thank you. And just to note as item I: "The Crisis Staff

21 of the Autonomous Region of Krajina was criticised for reaching decisions

22 that were important for the entire territory."

23 Okay. Could we move, please, to document 694, at -- behind

24 divider 15. This is a decision apparently undated, and it refers to a

25 decision of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region held on the 29th of

Page 5694

1 June. "The Sanski Most Crisis Staff approved the decision on the

2 confiscation of privately owned movable and immovable property in the

3 areas from where armed operations were carried out and their

4 transformation into state-owned property, Article 3, the Sanski Most

5 municipality will administer and dispose of the property."

6 Just very quickly and briefly, Judge. How -- what did that

7 decision practically mean? What happened to property, movable and

8 immovable?

9 A. This decision meant that the citizens of the Sanski Most

10 municipality of Muslim and Croat ethnicity leaving Sanski Most -- or

11 rather, those who were expelled had first to sign a statement indicating

12 that they left all their property to the Autonomous Region of Krajina. So

13 all their property remained in Sanski Most, and it was -- it was

14 proclaimed that now it became the state-owned property or the property of

15 the municipality of Sanski Most and of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

16 And that's in fact what happened. All the inhabitants who left Sanski

17 Most had to leave their property behind, and it was taken away and in

18 effect stolen, both movable and immovable property. There is a whole

19 number of documents indicating that they did in fact dispose of our

20 property as they saw fit.

21 Q. All right. And we're going to look at a couple more in there.

22 If we look at the next document, we can see at P695 that "The

23 municipal civilian protection staff will gather all movable goods and

24 ensure adequate storage and security."

25 And at the next document -- I'm sorry to move so quickly through.

Page 5695

1 P696. But it's all, as you say, connected to the same theme. There's a

2 decision, the 2nd of July, where Article 1 says that "Voluntary departure

3 from Sanski Most municipality shall be allowed to families and persons who

4 give a statement to the authorised municipal administration organ that

5 they are permanently leaving the municipality and that they are leaving

6 their real property to the Sanski Most municipality."

7 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Yes, Ms. Korner, may I --

8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: May I with your indulgence interrupt you for a

10 minute and seek the following clarification. Exhibit P694, which is

11 unsigned, undated, and in the first line refers to an unnumbered

12 article --

13 MS. KORNER: Mm-hm.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Purports to be a decision reached or taken on the

15 29th of June, 1992. And the -- of this alleged decision is confiscation

16 with whatever is entailed legally under that term.

17 The document you are referring the witness to now, 696, presents a

18 completely different concept, and that is an imposition on whoever is

19 leaving the municipality to agree leave the real property to the Sanski

20 Most municipality.

21 MS. KORNER: Mm-hm.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: Can -- which is -- let's say that this second

23 document is more in line with what the witness has been stating in his

24 testimony. Is he in a position to confirm in an unequivocal manner that

25 in fact the decision indicated in Exhibit P694 was actually taken?

Page 5696

1 Because document -- this document could also be a draft decision --

2 MS. KORNER: Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Prepared in advance for a meeting which never

4 materialised in a decision. Was a decision actually taken that you know

5 of and that you can assure this Trial Chamber of - taken - on the 29th of

6 June 1992 by the Sanski Most Municipal Crisis Staff to approve a routine

7 confiscation process?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the Crisis Staff did

9 take such a decision. It follows from the original decisions.

10 Furthermore, this decision itself on the criteria for the possibility of

11 departure from the municipality of Sanski Most, it's an operational

12 decision. It merely elaborates another decision taken by the Crisis

13 Staff. In effect, the Crisis Staff is the War Staff in this period when

14 this decision was taken. It has the highest function in the municipality

15 of Sanski Most.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: But judge -- judge, we're talking of two completely

17 different notions and two completely different scenarios. The scenario

18 that you had been testifying on is you as a citizen -- a Muslim citizen of

19 Sanski Most or a Croat citizen of Sanski Most municipality wanting to

20 leave the municipality and one of the conditions imposed, according to

21 you, is, "Okay, sir, you may leave. We'll even help you leave the

22 municipality of Sanski Most, but you have to sign releasing all your

23 landed property, immovable property, real property, call it whatever you

24 like, to the municipality."

25 That's one thing. This is something completely different in this

Page 5697

1 alleged decision -- alleged decision of 29 June. This is referring to

2 property found in areas in the Sanski Most municipality which had been the

3 subject of armed conflict, armed intervention. And we're talking of

4 confiscation now. We're not talking of a citizen of Sanski Most wanting

5 to leave and he's faced with this dilemma that leaving means surrendering

6 your property. This is irrespective of whether you're there or not, you

7 are having your property confiscated because it happens to be where it is,

8 namely an area where there has been armed intervention. If you know for

9 sure that this was -- this decision was taken, then say so. If you have

10 doubts or you don't know, then tell us. But it's important, because this

11 is a document which is unsigned, unnumbered, undated. And the Prosecution

12 has a duty to bring forward the best evidence that is available.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I would like to say

14 that this was not done by the citizens on a voluntary basis because all

15 the areas that they attacked and all the areas where people were forced to

16 go, nobody asked you whether you wanted to leave your property behind or

17 not. The inhabitants were simply expelled from these areas. And that

18 covers the most part of the territory of the Sanski Most municipality.

19 And then later on at the sessions of various organs, including the

20 executive board of the municipality, they used this milder terminology,

21 "voluntary," the term "voluntary." There wasn't anything voluntary about

22 it. This is an exaggeration, because I know for sure -- because I saw the

23 documents pertaining to the sessions of the executive board and of the

24 Crisis Staff and the discussions that they had, the interventions of

25 individuals, what they were saying.

Page 5698

1 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. You're not -- are you in a position to

2 tell us whether this decision was actually taken or not, formally taken,

3 by the Crisis Staff, the one shown on P694?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This decision was taken at the

5 Crisis Staff.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.

7 MS. KORNER: Yes. But I think I'd better --

8 Q. Do you understand there's nothing to indicate on the document that

9 this is a decision that was actually passed. How are you able to say

10 that this decision was actually made by the Crisis Staff?

11 A. As I have already said, the inhabitants from these areas didn't

12 sign anything.

13 Q. No. All right. But -- yes.

14 A. They had to leave everything behind.

15 Q. Yes. No. I think we really -- just pause for a moment, please.

16 I understand what you're saying, but the point that the learned trial

17 Judge is making that there's a difference between "confiscation", which

18 simply means collection of movable cars, cows, whatever it is, and having

19 to sign your -- away your property in order to leave. There are two

20 different decisions. Are you saying that from what you know happened,

21 that people who were in this war area were -- where armed operations

22 carried out -- had their property taken. Is that what you're saying?

23 JUDGE AGIUS: One could be confiscation or expropriation --

24 MS. KORNER: Yes.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: -- At different levels or at different ends of the

Page 5699

1 spectrum. The other one could become a de facto expropriation. But --

2 but let's stick to what is essential. I mean, Judge, like me and like

3 every other judge, sometimes you draft a judgement which you leave on your

4 desk and which you're supposed to give to hand down tomorrow, then you

5 have second thoughts and you tear it up. If I happen -- because you

6 change your mind or you want to expand on it.

7 If I happen to take that draft judgement from your desk, it's

8 unsigned, undated, how am I going to prove that it was actually handed

9 down? This is the question. We have a document here which is unsigned

10 and undated, refers to a decision supposedly taken on the 29th of June,

11 1992, but it's the first document of the kind which I am seeing which is

12 completely unsigned and undated to the extent that it calls for some

13 obvious questions or queries.

14 MS. KORNER: I -- Your Honour, I mean, I note the time. I think

15 in fact we can deal with the reality of what happened from people who know

16 what happened.

17 Q. All we're asking you at this moment, Judge, is are you aware of

18 any other document that supports the fact that on the -- at the end of

19 June, the Crisis Staff issued a decision ordering confiscation?

20 A. I can answer that question and say that yes, I was able to find

21 out that this decision was implemented. And how did I do that? Well, for

22 example, all the private vehicles or all technical equipment was

23 confiscated and the documents were appropriated. There are documents in

24 Sanski Most which I obtained. There are regulation plans for this

25 municipal service, according to which Mahala should be transformed into --

Page 5700

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes. Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I just want to make sure since we've

3 talked about this so much that Your Honours understand that we strongly

4 objected to this at the very beginning of the case because it was

5 unsigned. It also comes from --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: From Bihac as well.

7 MR. ACKERMAN: From the AID office in Bihac, which I think is a

8 very suspicious source of documents to start with. I think there's at

9 least the possibility that it is just a pure forgery. There's no

10 decision, as I understand it -- I've not seen one -- of the ARK Crisis

11 Staff of 29 June 1992 regarding confiscation. It's very likely a complete

12 forgery.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, you and Madam Fauveau together with

14 your clients can put your minds to rest that no one will be condemned by

15 this Trial Chamber on the basis of such a document.

16 MS. KORNER: All right. And Mr. Ackerman's thoughts, opinions,

17 suggestions are not in my submission admissible. He can think what he

18 likes. We're talking about evidence.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. That -- with regard to Bihac and the AID,

20 forget it. I'm not going to comment on that. That's obviously Mr.

21 Ackerman's -- and he's entitled to that opinion.

22 MS. KORNER: Yes. But he's not entitled to express it, Your

23 Honour.


25 MR. ACKERMAN: But Ms. Korner is entitled to express her opinions

Page 5701

1 about the evidence but I'm not entitled to express my opinion? Is that

2 her position? She can stand her all day and say this shows Your Honour

3 that such and such occurred. This Your Honour is an official document

4 she's expressing her opinions all day every day and when I do it once she

5 says I'm wrong I'm not allowed to do it. Stop her from doing it and then

6 I'll stop doing it.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay. Mr. Ackerman. Sit down and let's

8 continue.

9 MS. KORNER: Okay. Let's leave that document shall we and move on

10 in the remaining ten minutes.



13 Q. Okay document 6 -- P696, which we've looked at, does bear a stamp

14 and a signature.

15 And can we move then, please, to the next document, 697.

16 A. I'm sorry. Which divider is that?

17 Q. That's after divider 18. There is a report from the Sanski Most

18 SJB to the CSB describing the -- the operations and the persons who have

19 been processed. 332 after processing completed, 82 released, allowed to

20 go home. 250 -- I'm not sure. Oh, and -- yes. If one looks at the

21 original, it looks like 250 -- 850 -- if one looks at the original, you

22 can see "850" has been inserted -- were sent to ha camp in Manjaca. If

23 one looks at the original on it, there's 250, and then 850 sent to

24 Manjaca.

25 A. That's what it says.

Page 5702

1 Q. Right. Persons who fled from the place where combat operations

2 were being conducted, about 500 of them who are able-bodied were being

3 treated as civilian prisoners have been accommodated in the sports hall.

4 Actually I don't think I need -- I'm sorry. I don't think I need asking

5 you about that.

6 Can we move on, please, to 699, which is behind divider 20. And

7 that's, I think, merely to note that this was a document that you

8 personally handed, I think, to the Office of the Prosecutor. Is that

9 correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. And dealing with the weapons on the disarmament.

12 The next document you've already looked at.

13 MS. KORNER: Your Honours, I think that's already been dealt

14 with. That's the informator. And he looked at it when he was dealing

15 with propaganda.

16 Q. Then document, please, 7 -- P701, a decision -- behind divider

17 number 23. Sorry. A -- the War Staff ordering the SJB to take all

18 measures and actions in conjunction with the municipal civilian protection

19 staff to confiscate all looted property and take all measures prescribed.

20 Article 2: "Ordered to take all necessary steps according to the

21 available data to initiate a procedure against persons of Serbian

22 nationality for whom there are reasonable grounds for suspicion that they

23 are illegally selling weapons to persons of Muslim nationality."

24 I'm sorry. I don't think there's very much I can ask you about

25 that.

Page 5703

1 P703. Now, this is a document again that I think you

2 personally -- I'm sorry, behind divider 25 -- that you personally handed

3 to the Office of the Prosecutor. And it's the executive committee of the

4 Sanski Most --

5 A. That's right.

6 Q. -- Assembly. It looks as though you found a whole set of these.

7 And there's reference there to the Autonomous Region of Krajina adopting a

8 decision banning the purchase of all essential and inessential -- and then

9 it look like "movable and immovable property as of the 14th of April,

10 1992." It's not clear as to what that applies.

11 Could you move, please, then to document 706, which is behind

12 divider 28. And again, this is a document that you personally handed, it

13 would appear, to the Office of the Prosecutor.

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. And is a report on the work of the Sanski Most station between

16 January and June.

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. I don't think we need to go into details about that report.

19 So if we could move, please, to 708, behind divider 30, merely to

20 note that you personally handed this document over. Again, it's an

21 executive committee minutes.

22 A. That's right.

23 Q. The next document, P709.

24 A. What divider is that, please?

25 Q. The next divider. 31, please. Which again is another document

Page 5704

1 dealing with the movement of the population. It's a conclusion of the

2 executive committee again of the municipal assembly, which in the third

3 paragraph talks about 18 -- I'm sorry. I'm just checking the original on

4 this. I'm getting slightly concerned about numbers. But -- it says?

5 18.000 Muslims and Croats in the Sanski Most area. In order to avoid

6 danger to the Serbian population, it is necessary to organise their

7 voluntary resettlement." And then --

8 A. Sorry. I would just like to add something.

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Voluntarily. You see, this is the fabrication. It's a lie.

11 Voluntarily means to expel, to -- to remove by force. That's what it

12 means.

13 Q. And that -- in item 5: "The court start working is a matter of

14 urgency and the government of the Autonomous Region of Krajina be urgently

15 requested to approve the establishment of prisons."

16 The next document, please, which is document -- I'd like you to

17 look at -- 710. And that's purely to note that you handed this

18 document -- behind divider 32.

19 A. That's a document that I provided to the Prosecution. It's a note

20 from the 9th session of the executive committee of the Sanski Most

21 Municipal Assembly.

22 Q. Okay. And I don't think we need to look at that.

23 Document 713, behind divider 35. Again, I think that's a document

24 that you personally handed to the Office of the Prosecutor's

25 representative. Is that correct?

Page 5705

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. Now, it's the 5th of August, 1992, a report to the Banja Luka CSB

3 and states that "Paramilitary groups have escaped the control of the army

4 command, have become increasingly active in Sanski Most, carrying out

5 private operations, planting bombs, burning houses, murdering people,

6 plundering property, and other crimes against the Muslim and Croatian

7 population, all for their personal gain and to put pressure on this

8 population to leave. 45 bombs planted in the last two months in Muslim's

9 homes and cafes, two mosques destroyed, five buildings burnt, four

10 murders. As regards plunder of movable property, it's almost impossible

11 to keep any kind of record because the victims do not dare to report the

12 perpetrators." And then it deals with the groups in question and

13 says: "We have so far registered four such group, one of them being the

14 so-called SOS a court reporter paramilitary formation about 30 men strong

15 that was formerly placed under the command of a war unit here as a

16 sabotage platoon. However, the unit does not have full control of the

17 formation."

18 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I think that's probably, I'm afraid, as

19 far as we can take it today.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Thank you, Ms. Korner.

21 Shall I take it that you may have a few more questions?

22 MS. KORNER: Yes. I've got about another ten documents and that's

23 it.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And that means --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.

Page 5706

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Sorry, interpreters.

2 I take it that Ms. Korner has a few more questions relating to ten

3 documents which basically means that either of you, depending on how you

4 have agreed to -- amongst yourself who is going first will start the

5 cross-examination tomorrow morning.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, our agreement is that Madam Fauveau

7 will go first.


9 MR. ACKERMAN: She has estimated she will take a full session.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I'm not interested in that for time being,

11 because obviously the Prosecution now is in a position to know for sure

12 that the witness will need to be here again on Tuesday. So the question

13 of how long Madam Fauveau or you are going to take does no longer arise --

14 at least not entirely. So --

15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm not sure -- has Your Honour -- have

16 we given Your Honours the statement for the next witness?


18 MS. KORNER: Right.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't --

20 MS. KORNER: We'll arrange to do that tomorrow.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please. Yes, please. The pleasure is yet to

22 come.

23 MR. ACKERMAN: Can we be told who it is?

24 MS. KORNER: If you follow the list, you'll see who he is. I'm

25 not mentioning his name because --

Page 5707

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I can tell you, Mr. Ackerman.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: We've kind of departed from the list a little bit

3 in terms of he left out some people and he's out of order from the list

4 and -- I just want to know where we're going.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It's 7.193.

6 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.

7 MS. KORNER: Well, I -- unfortunately I haven't got my list here.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: No protective measure, I but I'm not going to

9 mention the name.

10 MS. KORNER: No. That's not right.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Pardon?

12 MS. KORNER: Sorry, Your Honour. That isn't right. Not according

13 to our list. That's why I was wondering.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: This is the last list that I have, dated 22nd of

15 April of this year.

16 MS. KORNER: Okay. Your Honour I'll do a double-check and let

17 Your Honours know tomorrow -- you'll get the statement anyhow. But I have

18 a feeling that something went wrong there as well, because I've just been

19 shown a note that shows it's a different witness.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: But I think you ought to check that and --

21 MS. KORNER: I will.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Inform everyone tomorrow.

23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, can I say straight away that I think

24 there will be -- have to be some changes for reasons which have suddenly

25 arisen in any event. So I think we better prepare a new list.

Page 5708

1 JUDGE AGIUS: The only thing that I have here in front of me in

2 this list is no amendments except a note that I have made that Witness

3 7.52, Mr. McLeod will testify on the 21st of June.

4 MS. KORNER: That's right.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: That's the only thing that I first have.

6 MS. KORNER: No. I --

7 JUDGE AGIUS: And the other thing that you mentioned, that namely

8 Witness I think either 7.139 or 7.1 -- 7.143 who was reluctant to give

9 evidence and who's now decided to give evidence will be brought forward.

10 It's the second of the two witnesses, one of whom the 92 bis motion

11 referred to.

12 MS. KORNER: Yes. No. Your Honour, I don't think -- I think the

13 simplest thing is because of these two witnesses, there have been

14 changes. I think we'll provide a brand new list tomorrow morning.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Yes, please. Yes, please.

16 MS. KORNER: Yes.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: But give it priority, because --

18 MS. KORNER: No. We will. That will be the first thing we do

19 tomorrow morning.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

21 Sorry to the interpreters and technicians and everyone for keeping

22 you for about four minutes over the time. Thank you. We'll all immediate

23 tomorrow morning. Thank you, Judge. See you tomorrow morning.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

25 at 1.48 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

Page 5709

1 the 16th day of May, 2002, at 9.00