1 Wednesday, 5 June 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 [The accused entered court]
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Registrar, you can proceed to call the case,
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,
9 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a
12 language that you can understand?
13 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your
14 Honour. I can hear you and I understand you.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. You may sit down.
16 General Talic, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a
17 language that you can understand?
18 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
19 I can hear you in a language that I understand.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, General Talic. You may sit down.
21 Appearances for the Prosecution.
22 MS. KORNER: Joanna Korner, assisted by case manager Denise
23 Gustin. Good afternoon, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Good afternoon to you. Thank you.
25 Appearances for Brdjanin.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: Good afternoon, Your Honours. I'm John Ackerman.
2 I'm here with my co-counsel Milan Trbojevic --
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Trbojevic.
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Milan Trbojevic. Thank you. And our assistant
5 Marela Jevtovic. Thank you.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And good afternoon to you.
7 And appearances for General Talic.
8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. I
9 am Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau. I represent General Talic.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And good afternoon to you.
11 And good afternoon to you, Dr. Sabanovic.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The usher will give you the solemn
14 declaration. And if you could kindly read it out again once more, hoping
15 that this will be the last time you're doing that.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
17 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
18 and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: ENIS SABANOVIC [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Any preliminaries before we proceed with the
23 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I thought Your Honour was
24 proceeding with the witness. I can deal with it and it's probably better
25 dealt with when the witness is finished, before the next witness comes in.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner.
2 Mr. Ackerman, you may proceed or resume your cross-examination of
3 the witness.
4 Dr. Sabanovic, Mr. Ackerman will be continuing his
5 cross-examination of you.
6 Yesterday, Mr. Ackerman, you were in the process of referring the
7 witness, I think if I remember well, to document P754.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah. That will be next, although I've got one
9 other little thing -- two other little things I need to kind of revisit or
10 clear up before I get there.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: The first thing I'd like to look at is DB86. I'd
13 like the usher to bring it by me and then I'll send it on over to the
15 Okay. Take it over to the ELMO, please.
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Ackerman: [Continued]
17 Q. Doctor, I have Exhibit DB86 back on the ELMO where you can see
18 it. And my question is: Do you see the infirmary on there where you
19 worked? Is it represented on that drawing?
20 A. I'm not sure. I think it is here, in front of us, of this fence.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Dr. Sabanovic, we need to put it on the ELMO and you
22 need to indicate the spot on the ELMO so that we can follow.
23 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. You think that is the --
25 MR. ACKERMAN:
1 Q. Okay. Would you just put the letter "I" there with your initials
2 next to it, please.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. All right. You have written an "A" it likes like and you put your
5 initials there and that's fine. Okay. Thank you.
6 On your first day of testimony, June 3rd, at -- it's on page 60 of
7 the transcript -- you were referring to photograph number 8. And I guess
8 we ought to get P807 over to the ELMO so we can look at it, because it
9 might be important to do so.
10 MR. ACKERMAN: And put it so that we can see photograph number 8,
11 please, Mr. Usher.
12 Q. Sir, you'll see the photograph of a white building with a red roof
13 there. Underneath it says "infirmary" in English. And you told us the
14 other day, I believe, at page 60 of the transcript that that was the
15 infirmary --
16 A. I can see it.
17 Q. Yes. And that is the building you identified as the infirmary,
18 and also it contained there in the back the isolation cell; correct?
19 A. Well, that wouldn't be the infirmary.
20 Q. So this description here is wrong then. If that's -- if that says
21 "infirmary" there underneath that --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- that's incorrect.
24 Do you see on any of these pictures, do you see --
25 A. This isn't the infirmary.
1 Q. Okay. On any of these picture, do you see the infirmary? You can
2 look over -- look over at the document that's on the ELMO so you can see
3 every picture and tell me if you see the infirmary. Just look at the
4 document itself. If you do, what number is it?
5 A. The first infirmary was here.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Where?
7 MR. ACKERMAN:
8 Q. You have to put it back on the ELMO and point to it now?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Which was the first infirmary, or where was the
10 first infirmary, please?
11 MR. ACKERMAN:
12 Q. Okay. You're pointing to photograph number 6, the administration
13 building; correct?
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
15 MR. ACKERMAN:
16 Q. And then do you see any other one?
17 A. Yes. The infirmary was there at the beginning too. But I don't
18 understand these matters very well --
19 Q. And then --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't need to look at the map. Just look at the
22 MR. ACKERMAN:
23 Q. Do you see another photo that has the later infirmary on it?
24 A. I can't see it here.
25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we went through this in chief. And I'm
1 not sure what the relevance is, however, it's the difference between the
2 word "infirmary" and "hospital." If Your Honours looks at the
3 transcript --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, let's solve it in a very simple manner. I
5 mean, I appreciate what you say, Ms. Korner.
6 Look at photo number 8, Dr. Sabanovic, please. Look at photo
7 number 8.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can see it.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: You were shown that photo before, two days ago. Do
10 you remember that?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you tell us according to you now what is shown
13 in that photo, what building that was or that is?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This building here is the hospital.
15 And there was a horse stables there. And this is where the patients would
16 have beds. There were about 30 to 40 of them, and this is the entrance.
17 And here behind, this is the gate to the isolation cell. And there was
18 also an entrance where they would take -- which they would use to take in
19 goods from the Red Cross, et cetera. So the hospital is one thing and the
20 infirmary is another thing.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: So -- one moment, Mr. Ackerman. Let's clear this
22 from our -- from our table straight away.
23 So you are telling us that to you, there is a difference between
24 an infirmary and a hospital. And indeed there is. This was the hospital,
25 according to you.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Where was this hospital in place? Where was the
3 infirmary? Or was there an infirmary at the same time?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Where was it?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The hospital was created before. It
7 was in the command where the police was. I've already said that. And at
8 the same time, in the command there was a place which used to be a
9 slaughterhouse, and that was renovated and they made this -- this
10 hospital. You can't see it here. And this is an infirmary. There was an
11 area behind the stables, behind the kitchen where we would eat, and that's
12 the area where there is an entrance leading to the place where the
13 seriously sick were lying.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I don't know if your mind is clear after this
15 explanation, Mr. Ackerman, but you may proceed.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: I want to have the witness now again look at DB86,
17 Your Honour, because I obviously asked the question improperly. I need to
18 ask it properly.
19 Q. Sir, I've got Exhibit DB86 back on the ELMO again. And tell me
20 now if you see the hospital on that drawing.
21 A. Well, it should be here, this part here, which is drawn, behind
22 this kitchen. Just here.
23 Q. So it's --
24 A. That's where the hospital should be, and this is where the
25 infirmary should be, because the command building was here to the left.
1 That's where the command should be, where the infirmary used to be, and
2 that should be the premises which are now used for the infirmary.
3 Q. All right. So the hospital is basically missing from this
4 drawing. It hasn't been drawn in.
5 A. You can't see it here. You can see very little here. It's
6 probably here. Something has been drawn which is a low sort of structure,
7 but not very well. I don't know who drew it. I don't know whether it's
8 been done very well.
9 Q. That low structure, could you just put some kind of a designation
10 there. And I understand that that is the area where you're saying the
11 hospital was but it's not representative of the hospital?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: He can put an "H."
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That should be the place. And this
14 should be the area. But the first part could have been the place, the one
15 that we were just looking at, where I said that the infirmary was
16 located. That seems to fit.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I appreciate that interruptions actually
18 sometimes delay matters even more, but I do ask given that this witness is
19 anxious to get away what any of this has to do with the case for
20 Mr. Brdjanin. And we could go on forever with whether the drawing is
21 accurate or the photograph or the descriptions. But I really do ask
22 what's the relevance of this to Mr. Brdjanin's case.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman. What's the relevance.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, Mr. Brdjanin is charged with
25 responsibility for a large number of things that happened in the Krajina
1 and one of the things that he's charged with is things that happened at
2 this very camp, and so it's very relevant to his case. That's why I'm
3 doing this. I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't think it was worth doing.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But you haven't explained the proper
5 relevance, I mean of the questions that you are directing at the witness
6 at this present moment and that you have been insisting upon since
7 yesterday. I mean, the - the precise location of the infirmary and the
9 MR. ACKERMAN: It has a great deal to do with witness credibility,
10 both this witness and previous witnesses, which I would prefer to reserve
11 for argument at the appropriate time, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Witness, please where you think that the
13 hospital was, put an "H" and your initials.
14 And Mr. Ackerman, I invite you to proceed, to ask the witness some
15 other question which is more relevant to the treatment of prisoners.
16 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
17 JUDGE AGIUS: In Manjaca.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is just a formality. What
19 we're doing is just a formality.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, Dr. Sabanovic, let us decide whether it's just
21 a formality or not.
22 MR. ACKERMAN:
23 Q. Okay. You've put an "H" in the area that you say this hospital
24 with you located.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: And I'm now finished with this document. And thank
2 Q. You told us your first day of testimony at page 60 that you
3 started sleeping at some point in the hospital building; correct?
4 A. I didn't say that I started that. I started in the stables and
5 then in the hospital. The hospital wasn't there straight away.
6 Q. I understand. I've not worded my question properly or something.
7 There was a point where you started sleeping in the hospital
8 building; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you remember whether that was before or after you had been
11 registered by the Red Cross?
12 A. Well, about that time. I don't know exactly, but by the time we
13 sorted everything out, we sorted that area out and that happened later
15 Q. So is it your answer that it was about the time you were
16 registered by the Red Cross?
17 A. I think it was, and maybe even afterwards.
18 Q. Maybe afterwards. Okay.
19 I'd like you to look now at Exhibit P754. And what we had talked
20 about yesterday with regard to Emir Mulalic had to do with some
21 information that the German authorities apparently had received that you
22 had reanimated him at Manjaca, which you told the German authorities and
23 told us was not the case. If you look at this newspaper article - and
24 this is Prosecution Exhibit 754, sir - if you look at this newspaper
25 article, you'll see a box down to the -- just to the right of the two
1 photographs. The headline is [B/C/S spoken]. Do you see that?
2 A. Cadjavica.
3 Q. Yes. Cadjavica.
4 In that article, it talks about --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman, one moment. Because I'm not that sure
6 that we have -- 754. What we have is --
7 MS. KORNER: [Microphone not activated] I'm sorry. I shouldn't --
8 I was asking him without the microphone. But is this article translated?
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.
10 MS. KORNER: I think what His Honour is worried about and what I
11 can't find is where is the translation.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: 754 A.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: There is some confusion. 754 I have photocopies of
14 two different newspaper articles. The first one, which I don't think has
15 anything to do with what you're asking the witness now, has as a title
16 [B/C/S spoken]. And this is what has been indicated as Exhibit 754.
17 Then it continues, and there seems to be another article,
18 completely different and by a different person.
19 MR. ACKERMAN: It's all here, Your Honour.
20 MS. KORNER: Yes. Is it the translation that's headed, the
21 article "Interviews with prisoners from Manjaca"?
22 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, no, it isn't.
23 MS. KORNER: Well, in that case, that's what I mean. There are a
24 number of articles and a number of translations.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: This is -- is it.
1 MR. ACKERMAN: It's called --
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Is it the newspaper -- page from the newspaper where
3 there are two photos of two individuals --
4 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Skin and bones.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: And then to the right there is the box --
8 MR. ACKERMAN: That's --
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Is that the box you are referring to?
10 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: And this is also 754? Because --
12 MR. ACKERMAN: That's -- according to my records, it is.
13 MS. KORNER: Could we put it on the ELMO, both the English and the
14 B/C/S, please. And then we'll all see where we are.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: 754 goes on and on and on.
16 MS. KORNER: Right. And what's -- okay. And what's the
17 translation, please?
18 MR. ACKERMAN: And the translation is headed "Truth about death
19 camp 7, the wheel of crime."
20 MS. KORNER: Thank you.
21 MR. ACKERMAN: And the very last paragraph of that says "Crime in
23 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Would that get us there? Your Honours now have
25 what we're referring to.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But the thing is it needs to be indicated
2 properly because all this seems to be document 754 -- Exhibit 754. And
3 there are still other cuttings from other newspapers coming up in the same
4 document, before and after. So let's -- for -- to be precise, we are
5 referring to the page which is marked with the number "00491525" in the
6 B/C/S version and page "01107782" in the English --
7 MR. ACKERMAN: That's exactly correct, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: -- version.
9 Okay. So there are at least -- later on if we need to refer to
10 this, we'll be able to.
11 Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
12 MR. ACKERMAN:
13 Q. Sir, the only thing I want to bring to your attention is just
14 very -- that very short article. And I'm not going to read the whole
15 article. But it indicates that a person by the name of Emir Mulalic was
16 killed by a Dane Kajtaz and a Ducan Saovic while they were being escorted
17 from Manjaca at the well-known Chetnik stronghold of Cadjavica in a
18 forest near the Gaj motel.
19 My question is: Was there more than one Emir Mulalic that you
20 knew of who was confined at Manjaca?
21 A. No. And what is written there is not correct.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Dr. Sabanovic, that was not the question asked from
23 you. As far as you can say, was there only one Emir Mulalic or more than
24 one person with that same name in Manjaca? If you know the answer, then
25 tell us. If you --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just one person.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Just one person. You --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just one. That's for sure.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Okay.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm certain.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. You've got your answer now, Mr. Ackerman.
7 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you.
8 Q. My next question, sir, is similar: Were there two people in
9 Manjaca named Omer Filipovic?
10 A. No.
11 Q. So there was only one person named Omer Filipovic who you gave
12 testimony about having died at Manjaca; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And according to your testimony, at page 68 you and
15 Dr. Derviskadic were called to the isolation cell at about 10.00 on a
16 particular morning, where you found the dead body of Mr. Filipovic;
18 A. That's -- we didn't find it. The police took us there to the
19 place where the man was lying dead.
20 Q. And you actually saw the body of Omer Filipovic in that isolation
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. And was that one of the nights that you had slept in the
24 hospital? Were you taken there straight from the hospital?
25 A. In the same building.
1 Q. During that night while you were sleeping in that same building,
2 did you hear any screams or noises or anything like that coming from the
3 isolation cell?
4 A. Well, let me tell you. It was a nightly occurrence practically.
5 But that man, knowing what he looked like before that, there wasn't -- one
6 couldn't really expect to hear his screams, because when I saw him there
7 he was only about 30 per cent of his appearance, of his body physique at
8 the time when he was healthy.
9 Q. So I take it the answer is you did not hear screams from that
10 isolation cell during that night as you were sleeping in the hospital.
11 A. No.
12 Q. And did Dr. Derviskadic indicate to you that he had heard any --
13 any noises like that during the night?
14 A. I'm not deaf, and as far as I know Dr. Derviskadic is not deaf
15 either. We slept in the same place. I repeat, one could hear screams
16 every night, but I do not recall that one could hear anything that night.
17 Q. All right. Now, you told us that when you got to the isolation
18 cell you saw in there a fire extinguisher that had blood upon it and it
19 was clear to you that he had been killed with that fire extinguisher,
20 crushed to some extent with it; correct?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. In your statement to the German authorities, doctor -- and I'll
23 ask the Prosecutor to give those back to you, both of your statements,
24 because we're going to refer to them.
25 You were asked about Omer Filipovic -- and I think it's on page
1 14, but I'm not certain, of the B/C/S version. I don't think so.
2 There it is. It's on page -- it's on page 15, sir, about halfway
3 down. It begins with: [B/C/S spoken] Are you going to look at it or not,
4 or did I just waste my time looking for it?
5 A. I don't need it.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. Just go ahead.
8 Q. The translation -- the English version says this:
9 "Dr. Derviskadic and I found Omer Filipovic dead in the isolation cell
10 one day. After we had been registered by the International Red Cross. It
11 might have been in the morning that we found Omer Filipovic. We were
12 supposed to check whether Omer Filipovic was really dead. I was not able
13 to examine him at the time and therefore cannot tell you what other
14 injuries he had suffered; therefore I cannot tell you the exact cause of
15 his death. However, I assume that he died as a result of mistreatment."
16 Now, is that what you told the German authorities?
17 A. Technically it is so poor that I really have no comment. I have
18 no comment, believe it or not.
19 Q. Well, I really didn't ask you for a comment. I simply asked you
20 if that's what you told the German authorities. Yes or no?
21 A. Well, this must have been literal. But that is not how it was
22 said, no. Simply no.
23 Q. There's nothing in that statement that I have that you gave to the
24 German authorities that mentions anything about finding a fire
1 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm going to stop you, Mr. Ackerman. Please refer
2 to the first of these statements, according to my records at least, page
3 12 to be precise, with the number at the top 02004446, the third full
4 paragraph. "One day an MP told Dr. Derviskadic and I to come with him.
5 We were told to go to the isolation cell and get Omer Filipovic, because
6 he was dead. When I entered the cell which was 2 metres wide by 3 metres
7 long, I saw Omer lying on his back on the concrete floor. He was dead and
8 covered in blood. There was a fire extinguisher near him and the bottom
9 of it was covered in blood."
10 MS. KORNER: Your Honour.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: "It was clear to me that Omer had died a violent
12 death and that the fire extinguisher had been used to kill him."
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour the refer --
14 MR. ACKERMAN: You're looking at a different statement, Judge.
15 MS. KORNER: Your Honour's referring to the ICTY statement and
16 that came after the German.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. I see, I see.
18 MS. KORNER: The German interview was the first in time, the ICTY
19 statement was taken thereafter.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
21 Yes, you may proceed with your question.
22 MR. ACKERMAN:
23 Q. Sir, I could find nowhere in your statement to the German
24 authorities where you mention anything about a fire extinguisher. Did you
25 tell them about a fire extinguisher?
1 A. I did. It's very short. And these ones here -- I mean, this was
2 translated in such a muddled way that I repeat, I could never take such
3 things into consideration and translate them in this way.
4 Q. So you deny that you told the German authorities with regard to
5 Omer Filipovic "I cannot tell you the exact cause of his death"?
6 MS. KORNER: No. I'm sorry. That's a misrepresentation. The
7 doctor is not denying anything.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, he can answer that.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I deny --
10 MR. ACKERMAN: [Previous translation continues] ... question to
12 MS. KORNER: No. But the whey it's being put, he didn't deny it.
13 If he's being asked whether -- do you deny it, that's a different matter.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner is right. Rephrase your question,
15 Mr. Ackerman, please.
16 MR. ACKERMAN:
17 Q. The statement that I have from the German authorities reads as
18 follows, sir: "Therefore I cannot tell you the exact cause of his death.
19 However, I assume that he died as a result of mistreatment." Are you
20 saying that that is not true and that that is not what you told the German
22 A. It has not been translated as I said it. There is a number of
23 things -- there are a number of things here which are not translated
24 properly and did not reflect exactly what I had said.
25 Q. So is it your answer that you did not say that?
1 A. That I did not say it. I explained it. Just like I said to the
2 authorities here, how they translated it. I never read it. I'm not
3 reading it now.
4 Q. Well, you do --
5 A. This is the truth.
6 Q. You do recognise that I'm giving you the opportunity to read it
7 now, don't you?
8 A. Yes. But there's no reason for me to do it when I know it.
9 Q. I understand that's your position.
10 It says further down: "I examined Omer Filipovic alive for the
11 last time 15 or 16 days before I saw his body." You now say that that's
12 also not correct and you did not say that to the German authorities, don't
14 A. Let me tell you first. There are few of those whom I did not
15 examine in Manjaca, and I said that 15 days earlier Omer Filipovic was
16 lying in a corner all by himself, nobody could come near him. And I
17 examined everybody. Now you want me after ten years the examinations,
18 several thousand people. I do not know them -- I was Dr. Sabanovic.
19 Others were inmates. How could I know all these people? I don't even
20 know those people who come from my area and had left abroad. Therefore, I
21 don't know who is it -- who was it there that -- whom I did not examine.
22 It wasn't yesterday.
23 Q. Yes, I understand that.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: And there is also statements to the effect that he
25 was examining something between 100 and 200 inmates every day. So I think
1 that is important to keep in mind, Mr. Ackerman.
2 MR. ACKERMAN:
3 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you to remember back ten years. I'm only
4 asking you to remember back to December of 2000 or February of 2001, when
5 you spoke to the investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor. That's
6 as far back as I want you to remember right now. And isn't it true that
7 you said to the investigator from the Office of the Prosecutor, page 12 of
8 your statement: "In my previous statement, I mentioned that I had
9 examined Omer alive for the last time 15 to 16 days before I saw his
10 body. This is not accurately stated. I never examined his body. I only
11 saw him after he was returned to the stable." That's what you told the
12 Prosecutor just a few months ago; correct?
13 A. It is impossible. How could his body be returned to the stable?
14 Excuse me. To return a dead man to the stable, I don't understand it.
15 And the one who wrote this and said this, well, it's not that I'm denying
16 it is impossible. It's incomprehensible. Living people are brought into
17 the stable and dead men are taken out from the stable. And from the
18 solitary -- from the isolation cell the dead body was taken directly to
19 Banja Luka. What stable?
20 Q. Well, sir, one of two things is happening. You're either not
21 listening or my questions are not being translated properly. So what I
22 want you to do and what I'm going --
23 A. No. I'm listening carefully.
24 Q. Well, what I'm going to ask you to do, because you're -- you're
25 not answering the questions I'm asking you for some reason. One is that
1 you're not listening, or two, they're not being translated properly. So
2 I want you to look at your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor?
3 A. Do go ahead.
4 Q. No. I want you to look at the statement. You get the statement
5 and look at it, the one you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor?
6 A. No need.
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I object. I think this is getting to
8 badgering the witness. It's clear to see Your Honours have a copy of the
9 statement. What he said to the German authorities and what he said to the
10 investigator. And I think we spent enough time on it now.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Ms. Korner is right, Mr. Ackerman.
12 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, if he's going to be a witness here, Your
13 Honour, and I ask him proper questions, he should answer it.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But I think two paragraphs -- the relevant
15 paragraphs are there. I mean, the Chamber will withdraw its conclusions.
16 But it can't allow a situation to develop which almost becomes, I would
17 dare say, almost even a harassment. I mean, it's ...
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I just want to object to being cut off from
19 cross-examination which I think is appropriate.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: You will be cut off if necessary,
21 Mr. Ackerman. Otherwise you know that usually I don't cut you off,
22 neither you or anyone else.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: And he should probably look at a statement.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: And you probably come from a jurisdiction where what
25 you're doing now is customary. I come from a jurisdiction where this is
1 not allowed. I am permitting you to go ahead, but there are limits.
2 MR. ACKERMAN:
3 Q. Sir, you were talking in your direct examination about the death
4 of Esad Bender. And at page 69 of your testimony with regard to his
5 death, you gave the following answer: "It was a violent death. He was
6 covered in blood around his mouth and nose." Let me see if I'm looking at
7 the right one. I may not be looking at the right one. Yes, I am.
8 "The fire extinguisher next to him was also bloodstained in the
9 area where he was hit, and that was around his chest. And that is how we
10 were given a blanket to wrap him in and carry him out."
11 MR. ACKERMAN: I think that's Filipovic, Your Honour. I think I'm
12 reading the wrong part.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: That's my recollection as well, Mr. Ackerman.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes, here it is. I've found it. I've found it.
15 Q. With regard to Mr. Bender -- with regard to Mr. Bender, you've
16 said this.
17 A. [No interpretation]
18 Q. With regard to his death. That is a -- this is on page 70: "That
19 is a violent death. I did that, and I was an expert witness in a district
20 court in Banja Luka before the war. I did the post-mortems. I did
21 exhumations. And it was clear as daylight to me. And every word I'm
22 saying here is gospel truth. He died a violent death." And that's what
23 you told this Chamber during your testimony; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In your statement that you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor --
1 I'm on page 12 of the English version. The third paragraph up from the
2 bottom you talk both Mr. Bender. You said you had examined him a few
3 times, noticed that he had bruises on his body. You can't remember if you
4 examined him on his arrival to the camp, that there were about 800 people
5 in the same stable the day he died. And then you said this: "I cannot
6 say if Esad's condition worsened during his time in the camp." Correct?
7 A. There's no worsening of the state. That man was all covered in
8 bruises, beaten, beaten, beaten. What worsening of his state?
9 Q. I don't know. Those are your words.
10 A. The man died. The man died of the injuries. And -- and you can
11 think what you like. You're entitled to it. I'm not saying anything.
12 Q. When did you last speak with Judge Draganovic?
13 A. I don't know. What do you mean? Of late or ...?
14 Q. Yeah. Recently. When did you last speak to him?
15 A. Well, let me tell you. Talked -- he's a very serious case. He
16 had one of his legs amputated. He's a diabetic. He's often brought to
17 the hospital, and that is it. And we were talking --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Dr. Sabanovic. We're talking of a
19 different person.
20 The person that Mr. Ackerman is asking you about -- look at me,
21 please -- is Judge -- Judge Draganovic, the president of the court in
22 Sanski Most, who we have seen here very much in one piece. We can't tell
23 if he is diabetic or not, but he certainly had his two legs and he's
24 definitely not the person that you were mentioning a few minutes ago.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm told the translation was wrong, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Even the translation is wrong.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: I think we're having some very serious translation
3 problems today, because he's not answering any questions that I'm asking
4 and I think he's trying to be --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: The question, Mr. -- Dr. Sabanovic is this: When
6 did you last speak with Judge Draganovic?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it could have been a month, a
8 month and a half ago. And I talked with him about his mother. She is a
9 diabetic. She is seriously ill, and we talked about that a number of
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Now we are definitely talking of the same
12 person, Mr. Ackerman, and you may proceed.
13 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I want to -- I want to stop these
14 proceedings until we get some translators who can translate properly,
15 because it's not --
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But first you have to show me where the
17 problem lies.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: Apparently almost every question. All you have to
19 do is look at his answers that have nothing to do with my questions,
20 and it's pretty obvious that they're not being translated to him properly
21 and therefore he's giving me answers that have nothing to do with him
22 because he doesn't know what I'm asking him.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Not necessarily, Mr. Ackerman. Let's proceed.
24 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, I am very concerned.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. So am I. But when I have proof of what you're
1 alleging, then I will take action but not before that.
2 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, the proof was in the last question.
3 Obviously it was translated to him that somebody totally different from
4 Judge Draganovic--
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. But tell me how it was translated to him.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: I wish I knew.
7 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, I mean rather than spending
8 time -- both Mr. Ackerman -- he has two co-counsel who understand the
9 language. If there's a fault in the translation, no doubt they can alert
10 him. And Madam Fauveau speaks the language in any event. But I am
11 concerned that we are wasting an awful lot of time on what seem to me
12 particularly do not go to the heart of Mr. Ackerman's case.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Proceed, please, Mr. Ackerman. Go ahead.
14 MR. ACKERMAN:
15 Q. Did you speak with Judge Draganovic at all about his having
16 testified here at this Tribunal?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Have you spoken to anyone about his testimony here at this
20 A. I don't remember.
21 Q. Did you speak to anybody about anyone's testimony at this Tribunal
22 within the last two weeks? You could probably remember that.
23 A. I don't know. Why would I talk about it?
24 Q. Did you speak to any representative of the AID office in Sarajevo
25 or Sanski Most or any other location in Bosnia-Herzegovina about your
1 testimony here?
2 A. Only when they would invite me, when I was to come here.
3 Otherwise, no.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Be precise. Who did you speak to? Because the
5 question was a direct one. Did you speak to any representative of the AID
6 office in Sarajevo or Sanski Most or any other location in
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina about your testimony here? You're saying "only when
8 they would invite me, when I was to come here." Who invited you and who
9 did you speak to? That's what Mr. Ackerman wants to know.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With a man called -- whose first
11 name is Zijo. I don't know his last name -- who works in Sanski Most
12 and who informs me where do I have to go and when do I have to go there.
13 That is all.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: This is quite distressing.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: But this is what he's telling us, that he spoke with
16 someone called Zijo, if I get it right here. I don't know his last
18 MR. ACKERMAN: You can bet big money that it's our friend Zijad
19 Ibric and what is he doing inviting Prosecution witnesses --
20 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. Your Honour, if we're going to have this
21 discussion, we'll have it in the absence of the witness.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: You are mentioning a name that the witness did not
24 MS. KORNER: No. Mr. Ackerman is perfectly entitled to put direct
25 questions but not make comments of that nature and speeches. If he wants
1 to suggest to the witness that it was Zijad Ibric then by all means
2 suggest it. And then perhaps he might like to ask what discussion there
3 was between him and Zijad Ibric, rather than this cloud of --
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right, Mr. Ackerman -- Ms. Korner.
5 Mr. Ackerman, you are free to put a direct question to the
6 witness, mentioning the person -- name of the person that you have
7 referred to a minute ago and ask whether he has met with this person.
8 MR. ACKERMAN:
9 Q. Was it Zijad Ibric that talked to you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How many times did you speak with Zijad Ibric?
12 A. As many times as was necessary. When investigating judges came to
13 Sanski Most or when I was to come here.
14 Q. Did you give statements to Zijad Ibric, written statements?
15 A. No. No.
16 Q. Did you give written statements to investigative judges?
17 A. Yes. Those from The Hague and in Germany, if they are
18 investigating judges.
19 Q. Did you discuss the testimony that you would give here with
20 Mr. Zijad Ibric?
21 A. No.
22 Q. What did Zijad Ibric tell you when he contacted you with regard to
23 coming here to be a witness?
24 A. He told me that I needed a passport and a new one at that, so that
25 I changed the passport two or three days before I came here, and that he
1 would let me know when they came to take me to The Hague. That was that.
2 Q. When they came. Do you know who "they" were?
3 A. These are people from the United Nations. A man from the United
4 Nations who came to fetch me. I was working at the time, and he went
5 there and he brought me here.
6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, if Mr. Ackerman wants to hear evidence
7 from the VWS about how witnesses arrive here, then we'll call somebody.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't think it's necessary, Ms. Korner.
9 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, we already have -- I'll take this up
10 at a later time, but I'm becoming concerned about this and I want to raise
11 it but I don't want to do it now.
12 Q. Did you speak with anyone from any detainees association about the
13 testimony you would give here?
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. You told us in your transcript at page -- in your testimony at
16 page 71 of the transcript -- you said: "There was a judge who was --"
17 referring to your time in Manjaca, sir. "There was a judge who was called
18 out two or three times and luckily he did not respond. He certainly would
19 not have lived to see the day." Do you know who that was?
20 A. No, I don't.
21 Q. Is it the case that people were free to -- to not respond when
22 they were called out?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You told us that you had actually treated Lieutenant Colonel
25 Popovic and the person called Spaga, the warden, for their medical
1 problems; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you told us that they had on occasion asked you to drink
4 whiskey with them; true?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And there were in fact some occasions when you did that, weren't
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In your statement to the German authorities, sir, you were asked a
10 question which you described as a fairy tale. Do you remember that
11 question that they asked you which you called a fairy tale?
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you be more specific, Mr. Ackerman? Because
13 he --
14 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm trying to save some time. Your Honour. If we
15 can save some time by doing it this way, we will. If not, I'll have to be
16 a lot more specific. But he might remember, if he doesn't then I can
17 remind him of it.
18 Q. Do you remember that?
19 A. I don't know anything about a fairy tale.
20 Q. Okay. The investigator said to you that they had a statement
21 which said that Mr. Bender, Esad Bender, was carried on a blanket by four
22 prisoners into shed 3. You examined Bender by lifting his T-shirt and
23 asked one of the guards for a knife. You said that you needed to open up
24 Bender in a certain place in order to help him because he was suffering
25 from a pneumothorax. You were not given a knife, but about 30 minutes
1 later Spaga allegedly came into the shed and said that an ambulance was on
2 its way from Banja Luka. You are said to have massaged Bender all this
3 time, dabbing him with a moist rag. You supposedly weeping the entire
4 time. Bender supposedly told you why he had been hurt. He said
5 that he needed help because he was dying. You told him you could not help
6 him and he would be taken by ambulance to Banja Luka. He said he did not
7 want to go to Banja Luka. And after that this, he showed no more signs of
8 life. You supposedly tried to revive Bender with mouth-to-mouth
9 resuscitation and cardiac massage but without success. Soon after, the
10 lifeless Bender was carried out of the shed and put into the ambulance
11 that had arrived. And you were asked if you could remember that
12 incident. And what you told the German investigator was, according to the
13 document I have in front of me: "This is a fairy tale. This did not
14 happen. If it had happened, I would remember it. Somebody has dreamt
15 this up to make himself seem important and turn me into a hero. But I do
16 not need this." Do you remember that?
17 A. Well, -- let me tell you. Either I'm a fool or someone who's not
18 worthy to be walking around. Not even a person who is illiterate would do
19 something like that. I apologise. You read it out. But I quite simply
20 don't know what to say about that. It's such a -- it's so confused.
21 These words are so confused. Only a schizophrenic could say something
22 like that. I don't understand where this came from and I don't understand
23 what it is. Believe me, sir. Believe me. That's the truth. I simply
24 can't understand it. I don't understand that.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But don't put the blame necessarily on the
1 interpreters, Mr. Ackerman.
2 Dr. Sabanovic, look at me --
3 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour, I think there's some confusion. He
4 understands --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But he's not answering the question.
6 MS. KORNER: Yes, he is.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: The way he's answering it is obliquely. This is
8 what we have to establish.
9 MS. KORNER: But Your Honour, it's been put to him and he's asking
10 us if he remembers it.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. And instead of answering that question, he's
12 going to the substance. This is --
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the difficulty is -- and I repeat. I am
14 objecting to this line of questioning. What is the relevance of any of
15 this to the case for Mr. Brdjanin? We're just going forever round in
16 circles, it seems to me.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: But let the Tribunal draw conclusions from that, if
18 it is so, Ms. Korner. I mean, at the present moment I do understand that
19 Mr. Ackerman has every right to test the witness, putting us in a position
20 to be able to -- to decide how much weight to give to the evidence of this
21 witness. This is what he is trying to do. And I'm not going to stop
23 MS. KORNER: Well, I understand that, Your Honour, and I'd almost
24 given up objecting. But in fact that answer was a part of a statement
25 that apparently the German police had that they put to him and he said
1 that was a fairytale. Now, how does that assist Your Honours, may I
2 ask in reaching a conclusion as to the weight of this witness's evidence?
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, it would all have depended on the way he would
4 have answered the question. It could well be that there was a second
5 question in the pipeline waiting after that, had he said "yes, I remember
6 being asked that and I remember giving that answer."
7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, --
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Or Mr. Ackerman was expecting the kind of reply that
9 he actually got. How do I know?
10 MS. KORNER: All right. I think -- it's clear that Mr. Ackerman
11 and I need to have -- raise matters before Your Honour. But I'll sit down
12 at this stage.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman, please proceed.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I really would like the witness to
15 look at page 20 of the B/C/S translation of his German statement, because
16 I really don't think he understood what it was --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Let me -- let me explain again the question to him.
18 Mr. Ackerman -- Dr. Sabanovic, look at me, please. Dr. Sabanovic,
19 Mr. Ackerman read out to you from the statement that we have been given
20 supposedly telling us what question the investigator put to you -- the
21 German investigator put to you and what you had said. What we want to
22 know is whether you remember being told this story by the investigator,
23 telling you someone has told us that this and this and this happened, and
24 that I don't answered, "This is a fairytale." Do you remember being
25 questioned and do you remember answering, "This is a fairytale," this is
1 pure imagination?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is the first time
3 I've heard this here. This is the first time I've heard this. I don't
4 remember about -- anything about that. No one asked me that question.
5 And this is the first time I have heard this, and I am surprised by this.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So Mr. Ackerman, you've got your answer now.
7 You may proceed with the next question.
8 MR. ACKERMAN: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Sir, in your statement to the Prosecutor, on page 3 at the bottom
10 of the page, the last paragraph, you told the Prosecutor's Office,
11 according to this translation, the following: "Two or three months before
12 the takeover of Sanski Most, non-Serbs living in non-Serbian parts of town
13 had begun guarding their areas because they were afraid. For example, in
14 the settlement of Mahala." Is that the case? Is that true?
15 A. Yes, that's true.
16 Q. On the next page, it says that you said: "Armed Croat and Muslim
17 civilians stood guard during the evening to ensure the safety of civilians
18 living in those parts. All these factors led to Muslims and Croats
19 organising the patrols, especially during the evening." That's also true,
20 is it not?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. Now, you told us, sir, yesterday that you had seen Mr. Brdjanin at
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you told us you had seen him when he left the middle stable;
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And where were you?
4 A. He was in front -- I was in front. Outside. I then turned around
5 to the -- towards the other stables. I was in the infirmary at the time,
6 but I didn't go in at the time because a speech was being given and you
7 didn't have the right to enter the stables.
8 Q. So you were in the infirmary and he came out of stable 3 -- or the
9 middle stable, which would be -- the middle stable.
10 A. Went from the infirmary, yes.
11 Q. And that's where you saw him and recognised him; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And in your statement to the Prosecutor, you told the
14 Prosecutor -- it's page 14 of your statement -- that he was there on two
15 occasions. Yesterday you said you were only sure about one of those. And
16 when you told the Prosecutor about his visit, you said "It was toward the
17 end of July 1992"; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You also told us that either a policeman or a nurse told you
20 before the arrival that Brdjanin was coming. Can you tell us who told you
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who told you that?
24 A. Well, a policeman.
25 Q. Yesterday you said police or a nurse. Now you know it's a
2 A. A policeman or a nurse. A nurse wears a uniform just like a
4 Q. But you don't remember who it was.
5 A. There's nothing for me to remember. I don't know the names of any
6 of the policemen, neither the first nor the last name.
7 Q. But you did know the names of the nurses.
8 A. Yes, I did. Aco was one name.
9 Q. Yeah. We talked about that person yesterday, didn't we?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You think that was the person who told you Brdjanin was coming?
12 A. Yes. And others, not just him. Several of them.
13 Q. Yesterday at page 43 of the LiveNote you were talking about these
14 visits. You talked about Brdjanin and Zupljanin and Kupresanin visiting
15 the camp. And you referred to it as 3N, Manjaca 3N?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You said that meant the three people from the Banja Luka Crisis
18 Staff. And their names all ended in N. That was your testimony; right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I'd like you now to be shown, sir, Exhibit DB87.
21 Now, sir, on the 20th of February of 2001, an investigator from
22 the Prosecutor's Office showed you a number of photographs and asked you
23 if among those photographs you could see this Mr. Brdjanin who you knew
24 well because you'd seen him on television and could recognise him from
25 across the yard; right?
1 A. I didn't.
2 Q. You were given that opportunity, weren't you?
3 A. Yes. But I said that I didn't know who Brdjanin was when looking
4 at these photographs. When I have a look at him now I still wouldn't
5 know. I didn't give an affirmative answer.
6 Q. In other words, you could not pick Mr. Brdjanin out from these
7 photographs that you were shown, could you? You were shown 12
8 photographs, and you couldn't identify Mr. Brdjanin.
9 A. No.
10 MR. ACKERMAN: I have no further questions, Your Honour. Thank
12 MS. KORNER: Well, I think if the case is that Mr. Brdjanin was
13 never there, it ought to be put to the witness.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: I'm sorry. I missed that.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Ms. Korner --
16 Sorry, Mr. Ackerman. Ms. Korner is suggesting that if you contend
17 that your client was never present in Manjaca, you should put it to the
19 MR. ACKERMAN:
20 Q. Mr. Witness, I suggest to you that you did not see Mr. Brdjanin at
21 Manjaca and that he was never there. And of course you will say to me,
22 "You're wrong, Mr. Ackerman"; right?
23 A. I won't say that you're wrong, but that's not correct.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, it's like distinction between the infirmary
25 and the hospital.
1 We stop --
2 MR. ACKERMAN: [Previous translation continues] ...
3 JUDGE AGIUS: We stop there. You've finished, Mr. Ackerman.
4 Madam Fauveau, you have the option of starting now and stopping in
5 12 minutes' time, to resume after the break. Or we'll take the break now
6 and you start your cross-examination immediately after the break. I leave
7 it entirely up to you. What do you prefer?
8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I can start
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Then proceed.
11 Dr. Sabanovic, you are now going to be cross-examined by Defence
12 counsel for General Talic.
13 Madam Fauveau.
14 Cross-examined by Ms. Fauveau-Ivanovic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Sir, in 1992, you were the deputy of the
16 municipal assembly in Sanski Most; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When did the last session of the municipal assembly take place at
19 which you attended?
20 A. I couldn't answer that. That was a long time ago. If you're
21 referring to the year 1992.
22 Q. Yes, I'm referring to 1992.
23 A. I don't know. I couldn't answer that question.
24 Q. The day before yesterday you said that before 1990 you were a
25 member of the League of Communists.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Is it correct to say that you became a member of the League of
3 Communists in order to be able to assume the post of the chief of the --
4 of the head of the clinic in Sanski Most?
5 A. Yes. I was already elected, and then two hours later I got my
6 booklet saying that I was a member of the League of Communists. My
7 secretary in the health centre later became the secretary of the
8 committee. He was in that selection and got the booklet in two hours'
10 Q. You spoke on the 3rd of June, and you said that the Serbs had
11 the desire to create a new state without Croats and without Muslims.
12 Isn't it true that the Serbs didn't want to create a new state but that
13 they wanted to remain within Yugoslavia?
14 A. You could put it that way, to remain within Yugoslavia. Yes, to
15 remain in Serbia.
16 Q. And in fact, the Croats wanted a new, independent state; isn't
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the Muslims wanted a new, independent Bosnia.
20 A. Well, there was a referendum about that, and we know that that
21 was -- they voted for that at the referendum and they voted for an
22 independent Bosnia-Herzegovina.
23 Q. You spoke about Milosevic. That was also on the 3rd of June. And
24 you said that he was President of Serbia and the commander of the army.
25 Isn't it true that the commander of the army was the President of the
1 Presidency of Yugoslavia?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And in April 1992, it was the Croat, Stipo Mesic.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So Stipe Mesic was the commander of the Yugoslavia army and not
7 A. No, not then. Later. The President of Serbia and then the
8 President of Yugoslavia, which was formed by Serbian Montenegro. It was
9 then that he was the commander of the armed forces of the Federal Republic
10 of Yugoslavia. That's what I was referring to.
11 Q. But that was later. It wasn't in April 1992.
12 A. Yes. Yes, for sure. But I don't know about that. There was some
13 confusion about that.
14 Q. You said on the 3rd of June that your wife was a Serbian. Is that
16 A. Yes, that's true.
17 Q. And you have three sons; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. And all your sons have Muslim names. Their first names are Muslim
20 first names; is that true?
21 A. The eldest one is Ernes. The second is Alen, and the third is
23 Q. Yesterday you spoke about the certificates that you issued to
24 persons who did not want to go to the army. And yesterday you said that
25 these certificates weren't false. Do you have in front of you the
1 statement that you gave to the Prosecutor in the year 2000? Do you have
2 this statement?
3 A. Well, it should probably be here.
4 Q. On page 3 of this statement -- I think it's also page 3 in the
5 Serbo-Croat version. It's also page 3 in the Serbo-Croat version. The
6 second paragraph, the third sentence in the second paragraph. In the
7 English version it's also the second paragraph, the third sentence. You
8 said: [In English]: "Most of the certificates I issued were false."
9 [Interpretation] And today could you say whether these certificates were
10 false or whether they weren't false?
11 A. Not a single certificate was false. Each certificate was issued
12 to people who felt that they couldn't go to war and couldn't join in a war
13 between two states -- couldn't join the fight between Croatia and Serbia.
14 They didn't want to go. And that is either psychological or organic
15 factor. People were perhaps ill and these people were of various -- of
16 all nationalities.
17 Q. In that case, why did you say in this written statement that most
18 of these certificates were false?
19 A. Well, you know, in people's case histories, people would give this
20 information. They would always say that they were ill. And when we'd
21 have a look, perhaps they could have gone in a war situation. But in that
22 country, there was no war situation so I had to listen to the people and
23 write down what they said and what I determined through laboratory
24 examinations and other sorts of examinations.
25 Q. When you spoke with the representative of the OTP, why did you say
1 that these certificates or most of these certificates were false?
2 A. Well, let me tell you. The word "false," I don't know if I used
3 that word. These certificates were given to people so that they wouldn't
4 have to go and join a fight between other states. And Bosnia and
5 Herzegovina was already an independent state and it had been recognised
6 such by the United Nations.
7 Q. The war in Croatia did take place in 1991; isn't that correct?
8 A. 1991, I don't know. Around the beginning of 1991, 1992. Around
9 those dates.
10 Q. And in 1991, the army which was in Croatia, as well as in Bosnia,
11 it was the JNA.
12 A. Yes. But the army which was fighting against Croatia, it wasn't
13 the JNA. It wasn't only the JNA. It was the JNA which had gone to Serbia
14 and elsewhere, but it wasn't in Croatia.
15 Q. Bosnia in 1991 was still part of Yugoslavia, wasn't it?
16 A. Well, it was at the beginning, and later -- it's all been written
17 down. It's well known when -- it's a well-known fact when there was a
18 referendum and when it became independent and was recognised by the United
19 Nations. What I gave at the time, that took place at that time.
20 Q. I know that you don't like dates very much. But if I say that
21 Bosnia became independent on the 6th of April, 1992, could you accept
23 A. Well, I could.
24 Q. And could you accept that on the 6th of April, 1992 there was no
25 more war in Croatia?
1 A. Well, let me tell you. I don't know. In November 1992 I passed
2 through Gradiska, and it's not possible to say that there was no war
3 there, because part of Croatia had been occupied by Serbia, and there were
4 UN troops and there was a zone where it hadn't been finished.
5 Q. But in any case, in any event, the JNA was no longer there.
6 A. Perhaps not.
7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Would it be a good time to
8 have a break now?
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Certainly. We'll have a break of 15 minutes,
10 resuming at 4.00. Thank you.
11 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 4.04 p.m.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I recognise Mr. Ackerman.
14 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, after returning from my spot over
15 there, my colleagues here told me that the translations that were being
16 done during the cross-examination of this witness were absolutely
17 flawless, they were being done perfectly. And so I just want to publicly
18 apologise to the translators if I criticised them -- and I did, I think --
19 that it was not the translation that was causing the problems that were
20 happening this morning. And so to the extent that I can, I apologise to
21 them publicly for that.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you, Mr. Ackerman.
23 Yes, Ms. Korner.
24 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I understand from Madam Fauveau that
25 she's going to take the rest of this day and maybe tomorrow with this
1 witness. We have a witness here who's being -- who's waiting to testify,
2 on the basis of indications I was given yesterday.
3 The other matter I should mention straight away is although we
4 managed to stop one of the witnesses, we have a witness here waiting to
5 testify. I want to know perhaps what Your Honours think about the fact
6 that if he doesn't start till Friday, he probably won't finish and we then
7 have the week's break.
8 I raise that now. I'm not going to stop that because I'm anxious
9 to get the doctor away.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you for raising the matter.
11 Shall we postpone it until the very end of today's sitting, or do
12 you need to know before that?
13 MS. KORNER: No. I don't need -- I mean, both witnesses are here
14 already. I don't need to know now. I'm merely pointing this out. But
15 Your Honours may feel that it would be desirable if the doctor were able
16 to leave at least tomorrow morning.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: We'll do our utmost.
18 And if -- I don't know, Madam Fauveau, obviously I'm not going
19 interfere with your cross-examination. But if it is at all possible to
20 conclude today, you will try and conclude today.
21 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I will do my best. I will
22 do my utmost to finish today. But it is quite possible that perhaps I
23 will need another half an hour or very little for my cross-examination.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Madam Fauveau. Please proceed.
25 And Dr. Sabanovic, try to answer yes or no when that is possible,
1 without going into details, because the more details you enter into, the
2 longer you will stay here.
3 Yes, Madam Fauveau.
4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. When you speak about certificates that you issued to persons who
6 had been called up, you spoke about that and you said that some JNA
7 officers came to see you. Is that true?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And these officers were polite talking to you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. They did not threaten you?
12 A. No.
13 Q. The day before yesterday - and it is the page 13 of the LiveNote -
14 you said that these officers did not tell you that you did not have the
15 right to issue the certificates.
16 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
17 Q. Would you look at page 3 of your statement, please.
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Which statement?
19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] The statement to the OTP of
20 2000, 2001.
21 Q. Towards the end of the second paragraph, you said: [In English]
22 "At the time they were not unpleasant but they told me that I had no
23 right to issue the permits any longer." [Interpretation] Well, why did
24 you say this if you didn't think it true?
25 A. Well, I didn't perhaps consider it important, because there was no
1 conflict between us, there were no words between us. So perhaps I just
2 disregarded it.
3 Q. Then you spoke also about a colleague of yours, Bosko Grubisa by
4 name. And you said that he was wearing a uniform.
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. When did you see him in the uniform for the first time?
7 A. I think it was somewhere on the 25th or the 26th of April, when I
8 was dismissed, when I was removed from my post of the head of the general
9 specialist department.
10 Q. And this Bosko Grubisa worked for the same health centre as you?
11 A. Yes. An intern. Yes, he worked with me.
12 Q. And since when did he work for that centre?
13 A. Well, I believe he was there from 1992, thereabouts.
14 Q. And what about 1991, 1992? Was he still working for the centre?
15 A. Yes, yes, of course.
16 Q. He wasn't on the front in Croatia.
17 A. No.
18 Q. In your written statement - and it is page 3. It is the statement
19 to the OTP, page 3 in the English version, the very first sentence. And
20 in the B/C/S version, it is the first paragraph and -- the first whole
21 paragraph, the first sentence of it. You said that you already in July or
22 August 1991 you felt tensions and the JNA, or more specifically the 6th
23 Krajina Brigade had arrived into the area. Did you mean by this that the
24 6th Brigade arrived in the area of Sanski Most in July or August 1991?
25 A. No. No. It arrived sometime in the early days of March, the
1 beginning of March 1992.
2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar please
3 show P608, please, Exhibit P608.
4 Q. Is it the order of the command of the 5th Corps?
5 A. Well, I don't really know which corps, to be quite honest.
6 Q. Doesn't it say at the top of the page to the left "The command of
7 the 5th Corps"?
8 A. Yes, that's right. That's right. But I don't know. I -- at that
9 time I did know about the 5th Corps. I only know about the 5th Corps
10 after 1992, in the course of the war.
11 Q. And the date on this order is the 1st of April, 1992; is that
13 A. Yes. Yes, it is.
14 Q. If you look at the first paragraph immediately after number 1,
15 below the words "I hereby issue this order." This is an order to the 6th
16 Brigade to come to the area of Sanski Most; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Could we agree that the 6th Brigade received an order to deploy
19 its forces in the area of Sanski Most on the 1st of April, 1992?
20 A. Possibly. Possibly. I did not follow that, and as to the dates,
21 no, I'm sorry.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.
23 MR. ACKERMAN: The question before the current one, the witness
24 said, "Da, da," but it didn't get interpreted and the answer says "no
25 interpretation," but he did answer it yes, I think.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's clarify that.
2 Dr. Sabanovic, immediately prior to the last question you were
3 asked, you were asked the following question: "If you look at the first
4 paragraph immediately after number 1, below the words "I hereby issue this
5 order." This is an order to the 6th Brigade to come to the area of Sanski
6 Most; is that correct?" What was your answer? Because the interpreters
7 didn't get it.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: You don't know what you answered or -- what was your
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know when it came. I know
12 that the 6th Krajina Brigade arrived sometime in April to Sanski Most and
13 that they communicated with Colonel Basara and had some talks with them
14 and so on and so forth.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
16 Madam Fauveau.
17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar please
18 show P609.
19 Q. Isn't this the report of the command of the 5th Corps dated the
20 2nd of April, 1992?
21 A. Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes.
22 Q. And passage 2, paragraph 2, the paragraph which comes after "2,"
23 it speaks about the deployment of the 6th Brigade in the area of Sanski
24 Most; would that be true?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. And according to this report, the brigade should be deployed in
2 the area in Sanski Most until the 3rd of April, 1992; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, that's what it says.
4 Q. On the 3rd of June, you spoke about the checkpoints which were set
5 up by the Serbs, and you said that before the brigade came there were no
6 such checkpoints. Could you be more precise and tell us when were the
7 Serb checkpoints set up in the area of Sanski Most.
8 A. I cannot be quite precise, because it was at that chief period
9 before the war. Perhaps it could have been March, April, thereabouts.
10 Q. Could you look at your statement which you gave to the OTP, page 3
11 of the English version, the last passage. And in B/C/S version, it is the
12 first passage on page 4. And it is in the middle of the paragraph.
13 You said that the Serbs set up their checkpoints after the 19th of
14 May, 1992. It's page 4, the first passage.
15 A. No, no, no. This is a mistake. One shouldn't -- that was
17 Q. Then why did you say that it was after the 19th of May, 1992?
18 A. I fail to understand this, I must say. In April, yes. But now
19 you say May. In April, that is possible. But in May -- in May, by that
20 time everything was already organised.
21 Q. But the statement that you have before you, is it your statement?
22 A. Well, whose could it be? If it's here.
23 Q. And you had the opportunity to go through the statement before you
24 came to testify here.
25 A. Well, I wasn't paying attention and I never gave any thoughts to
1 dates. A month here, a month there. You knew what was happening. But
2 I'm not a military person to keep up with those statistics. So perhaps it
3 was a mistake not to do that. But I never gave it a thought, and it was a
4 long time ago, and so ...
5 Q. I do not know whether the witness still has before him P608.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: I wouldn't think so. It's not normal that the
7 registry leaves the documents lying on the table there during the break, I
8 suppose. 608.
9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. It is paragraph 2 of item 1. That is, this is a passage --
11 paragraph which doesn't give with a number.
12 Is it correct that the command of the 5th Corps ordered, among
13 other things, the -- to prevent inter-ethnic conflicts and the
14 establishment, the setting up of roadblocks?
15 A. That is how it was stated by the 6th Krajina Brigade, yes.
16 Q. Will you please now look at 609. The version in English is page
17 2, and B/C/S page 3. It is the paragraph which begins with number "3," "I
18 have decided."
19 In this report -- in this paragraph it is also indicated that
20 General Talic decided to prevent the establishment of the road -- the
21 setting up of the roadblocks; is that correct?
22 A. Yeah, yeah.
23 Q. And this -- and General Talic signed this document, didn't he?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Yesterday you spoke -- no, it was the day before yesterday, on the
1 3rd of June, page 14 of the LiveNote. You spoke about the guards which
2 were organised by non-Serbs in order to protect their villages. Could you
3 tell us when did the non-Serbs organise those guards.
4 A. Well, before these hard times started -- once again, I can't give
5 you the date. Hard times.
6 Q. Did the non-Serbs also set up their checkpoints?
7 A. No, not checkpoints. They had village guards, and the Serbs had
8 their checkpoints.
9 Q. Could one say that these non-Serb guards were established two or
10 three months before Sanski Most was taken by the Serbs?
11 A. Yes. I'd say so. But it's very difficult for me to speak about
12 any dates.
13 Q. Therefore, one can say that the non-Serbs organised their guards
14 before the Serbs set up their checkpoints; is that so?
15 A. No. The checkpoints were already in existence. It was the
16 checkpoints which conduced to the village guards organised by Croats and
17 Muslims and Croats.
18 Q. Is it correct to say that the non-Serbs organised those guards in
19 the town of Sanski Most as well? That is, in those parts of -- in the
20 part of the town where they were the majority.
21 A. Yes, yes, that's right.
22 Q. And those Muslims and Croats organised those guards. They were
23 armed, weren't they?
24 A. Why, yes, surely. No dilemma.
25 Q. And there were such guards in Mahala too, weren't there?
1 A. Yes. Yes.
2 Q. Therefore, there were armed individuals in Mahala, weren't there?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The day before yesterday, page 18, you spoke about the attack on
5 the municipal hall building in Sanski Most. Did you see that attack?
6 A. I did.
7 Q. Did you see any military, any troop movements during that attack?
8 A. No.
9 Q. So you do not know who took part in that attack, do you?
10 A. The police took part, all the police. And the police had already
11 been split. There was the Serb police, and they participated in it; all
12 the armed ones who sided with the Chetniks, that is, the Serb police and
13 the others. Well, the Serb authorities by and large.
14 Q. And there was an exchange of fire between the Serbian police and
15 the Muslim and Croat police; isn't that correct?
16 A. Yes. They were in the municipality for a very short time. Then
17 they left the municipality and went towards a village called Poljak. So
18 they came to an end quite rapidly.
19 Q. At a certain point in time -- on the 3rd of June, page 18 of the
20 LiveNote, you said that they were all members of the military. When you
21 say that they were all soldiers, do you mean to say that everyone wearing
22 a uniform was a soldier?
23 A. Everyone wearing a uniform and carrying weapons. That's what it
24 was called at the time.
25 Q. On page 4 of your statement. It's the second paragraph in the
1 English version on page 4, and it's page 4 in the second paragraph in the
2 Serb-Croat version. You said that you had seen Serb children with
3 weapons. How old were these children?
4 A. They were young people, 17 or 18 years old.
5 Q. You were arrested on the 26th of May, 1992; is that correct?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. And you said on the 3rd of June - it's page 21 of the LiveNote -
8 you said that your papers, your personal paper, had been burnt.
9 A. Yes
10 Q. Could you tell us who burnt your papers.
11 A. The people who escorted me from the hospital to my home. I said
12 that yesterday. The people who took me from the hospital to my home.
13 Q. Where did they burn your identity papers?
14 A. In front of the house. At the stop where we stopped in front of
15 the house.
16 Q. In fact, when you had returned from the hospital and returned
17 home, how many policemen got out of the vehicle?
18 A. Four. One came out with me immediately to talk to me, but there
19 were four sitting in the vehicle and they came out later.
20 Q. So all four men came out of the vehicle.
21 A. Yes. Later on they did.
22 Q. On the 3rd of June, at page 20 you said: [In English] "Only one
23 of them got out of the van."
24 A. In the beginning, I was escorted to the house -- to the fence in
25 front of the house and then escorted me into the house. And then the
1 other three got out of the vehicle too. So the other three were outside
3 Q. [Interpretation] You spoke about - and it's still on the 3rd of
4 June - about a Catholic person who was detained in the Hasan Kikic hall.
5 He was detained with you there. And he had been wounded in the shelling.
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. And you said that this shelling had been carried out by the 6th
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You were not personally present when this shelling took place.
11 A. No, because I was already imprisoned.
12 Q. So you don't have any personal knowledge of the identity of the
13 perpetrator of the shelling.
14 A. The 6th Krajina Brigade was deployed between Sanski Most -- above
15 Sanski Most, above Mahala, about 3 kilometres away on a hill called
16 Magarice, and the artillery was there. That's a hundred per cent sure. I
17 knew about that. I saw them. And I was in contact with Colonel Basara
18 and with officers.
19 Q. Before the 26th of May, was there any shelling of Sanski Most?
20 A. No.
21 Q. So you personally, you didn't see the shelling.
22 A. It wasn't possible for me to see it because I had been
23 imprisoned. I was imprisoned after the 26th.
24 Q. Yesterday you spoke about the destruction of the roof of your
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When was this roof destroyed?
3 A. Immediately after I had left. As soon as I had left, that took
4 place. There was zoljas fired at the house. They fired at the house.
5 The roof was destroyed, the door, et cetera.
6 Q. And you -- when the roof of your house was destroyed, at that time
7 you were already in prison.
8 A. I'd already left.
9 Q. So you didn't see it being destroyed.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Yesterday you said that a young Muslim and a young Serb put the
12 fire out in your house. Do you remember saying that?
13 A. They didn't set fire to it. No, they put it out. Yes, that's
14 right. Yes, a Muslim and a Serb, two boys who lived in the
16 Q. This Serb, was he a soldier?
17 A. No, he wasn't.
18 Q. The day before yesterday you spoke about your arrival in the
19 Manjaca camp, and you said that you had seen the murder of two persons.
20 It's in the LiveNote, page 51. It was a young man, Mehardzic and a
21 dentist called Biscevic.
22 A. That's right, yes.
23 Q. If you have a look at your written statement, it's page -- it's on
24 page 7. It's the paragraph before the last one in the English version.
25 And in the Croatian version, it's page 8, the first paragraph on page 8.
1 You spoke about the death of this young person called Mehardzic.
2 But then you say: [In English] "From my position, I was not able to
3 witness the other murders."
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. [Interpretation] You didn't mention the murder of the dentist
6 called Biscevic.
7 A. Perhaps I didn't. I saw a third person too, but I didn't sit down
8 and think about what was being done. It was all done very quickly. But
9 there was another person I saw who served in the army, in the JNA before
10 the war in the time of the real Yugoslavia. I saw him in Manjaca, and he
11 also died. That's for sure. That's a hundred per cent certain. His name
12 is Hadziahmetovic.
13 Q. So if I am following your testimony correctly, in your statement
14 given in the year 2000, 2001 you saw one murder. On the 3rd of June, you
15 saw two. And today you're saying that you witnessed three; is that
17 A. You should have done that immediately after that, and then we
18 would be speaking in different terms. For me to be think about this
19 ten years after the event and for me to refer to everything -- well, I
20 apologise to you. You're behaving in a very correct manner. But perhaps
21 there are certain discrepancies here, given the amount of time that has
23 Q. So you would allow for the possibility that there is certain
24 information that isn't correct in your statements.
25 A. I don't know how to formulate this. Mistakes -- perhaps it's a
1 matter of forgetting something and as a result not everything was -- was
2 stated. There's no other way for me to interpret this and now that I have
3 these things before me.
4 Q. On the 3rd of June - it's page 47 of the LiveNote - you said that
5 the persons who were detained in Manjaca and who came from Sanski Most and
6 Kljuc weren't soldiers.
7 A. No. Yes. I said yes. But they weren't soldiers.
8 Q. And on this occasion you said that there was no war and no
9 resistance had been mounted in the city.
10 A. No. There was no resistance on our part. That was an aggression,
11 and that's it.
12 Q. Yesterday you explained -- in another statement that you gave you
13 explained why you said at a certain point in time that it was war?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. And yesterday you said -- you said that you had said that
16 because: [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... "It was
17 called war."
18 [Interpretation] When you say that it was called war --
19 A. I never mentioned that. I said that there were -- the military
20 police was there because it was war and that was on the Serbian side, or
21 rather, the side that was against us. The Croats and the Muslims didn't
22 mount any resistance, so you could say that there was no war, given that
23 there was only one side. If there is to be a war, you need two sides.
24 That's what I said yesterday, and I'll repeat that again today. Not a
25 single Serb in Sanski Most was wounded, let alone killed. Not even
1 wounded. There was no shooting from our side. We were rounded up and
2 taken away.
3 Q. Would you agree that a state of war hadn't been declared in the
4 Sanski Most area in 1992?
5 A. I don't know. I don't think it was.
6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar show
7 the witness Prosecutor's Exhibit P642.
8 Q. Is this a report from the 1st Krajina Corps command?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. And the date is the 27th of May, 1992.
11 A. The 27th of May, 1992. That's correct.
12 Q. Could you have a look at the end of the first paragraph. It's on
13 page 1. It's just above number "2." It starts with the words "at about
14 15 hours."
15 A. Yes. I can see that. That's not correct. There were no Green
16 Berets in Sanski Most. Throughout the entire period of the war, they were
17 never there.
18 Q. Allow me to ask you the question.
19 A. I apologise.
20 Q. This paragraph describes an incident in the Sanski Most area;
21 isn't that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And according to this report, the Green Berets attacked a convoy.
24 Could you answer the question. Because I don't think it was interpreted.
25 A. There were no Green Berets, and there couldn't have been an
1 attack. They didn't exist.
2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar show
3 the witness Exhibit P659.
4 Q. Is this a report from the 1st Krajina Corps command dated the 3rd
5 of June, 1992?
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. And if you have a look again at the -- towards the end of
8 paragraph 1, just before number "2," it says that there are still
9 individuals and groups -- extremist individuals and groups acting in the
10 Prijedor, Sanski Most, and Kljuc areas; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that's what it says here, but that's not correct. In Sanski
12 Most. I don't know about the other two places, Prijedor and Kljuc.
13 Q. There's something in the Serbo-Croat version which wasn't
14 translated into English. I'm going to read it in Serbo-Croat so that the
15 interpreters can read it.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Go ahead, Madam Fauveau.
17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. "It is to be expected that there will be further fighting in the
19 entire area of the zone of responsibility and that there will be new focal
21 A. There were no -- there was no fighting in Sanski Most, and there
22 were no focal points, no places where there were hot points.
23 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm sorry. It's quite right. It hasn't
24 been translated. But I don't think it said -- if the translation that's
25 come up is right, it's the area of the zone of responsibility, which as I
1 understand it covers the whole of the first 1st KK, not just Sanski Most.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right, Ms. Korner.
4 MS. KORNER: And can I while I'm on my feet just make the point
5 that we can all read what's in the documents, but whether we're achieving
6 much by asking the witness whether he agrees with it or not is another
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, it -- you would have certainly noticed,
9 Ms. Korner, that throughout the last two, three weeks it has -- one of the
10 points that has strongly been contested by the two Defence teams is what
11 exactly happened in Sanski Most before the -- the day or up to the day or
12 on the day when the municipal buildings and the police -- so this is
13 something which is very hotly contested by -- by the Defence, and they are
14 trying to question each witness that we have had, starting with Judge
16 MS. KORNER: Yes. We're having -- well, there are two issues,
17 Your Honour. One is, as I understand it, although no positive suggestion
18 has been made about who it was who was supposed to be there, who was doing
19 the fighting. All that's been suggested along the lines of what was put
20 to Judge Draganovic was that he was saying there was no resistance in
21 order to get his --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. The contestation --
23 MS. KORNER: All right. I don't want to waste time because I want
24 the witness to finish. All I'm saying is that by simply reading documents
25 to him which say what the 1st KK documents say, which he hasn't seen, and
1 the question that's being asked is, "Do you see that's what it says, and
2 he says, "Yes, but I don't agree with it."
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, you have done exactly the same thing with
4 several witnesses.
5 MS. KORNER: All right.
6 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau. Please proceed.
7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. You said that everything that is written in this report is not
9 true, and you also say that there was no resistance.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: He didn't --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as Sanski Most is concerned.
12 I don't know about other places other than Sanski Most. There was no
13 resistance in Sanski Most, and there was no shooting. That's -- that's
14 for sure.
15 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Nevertheless there were armed Croats and Muslims in Sanski Most
18 A. Weapons were surrendered when it started in May. In the camp I
19 saw them bringing it in. In Betonirka they'd bring it in by tractor or in
20 carts drawn by horses. These were hunting guns, et cetera, so I'm sure
21 that there was no resistance, and I'm convinced of this. I know that.
22 Q. When were you in Betonirka -- when you were in Betonirka, it was
23 from the 27th or 28th of May; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, around the 28th of May. Because on the 26th I was in the
25 toilet -- I was locked up in the toilet in MUP, et cetera.
1 Q. And the fighting in Sanski Most was on the 27th of May; isn't that
3 A. Yes, around the 27th or 28th, something like that. There was no
4 fighting though. People were brought in and halls were filled up, but
5 there was no fighting. I didn't hear any shooting, apart from shells that
6 would be fired at surrounding villages.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: I invite you to move to something different now,
8 Madam Fauveau, please. I think you've made your point and he's made his
9 point on this particular topic.
10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. When you were in Manjaca, in the Manjaca camp, you were on good
12 terms with Command Popovic; isn't that correct?
13 A. After the -- after June. Up until June, it was necessary to
14 resist this psychologically. But as time passed, people became convinced
15 that I wasn't the person that they had been told I was according to
16 information from Sanski Most, and this was proved later on and I was
17 released and they greeted me correctly when we parted ways.
18 Q. You mentioned seven persons who had apparently been thrown into
19 the Vrbas River. When did this happen?
20 A. Yes, that's what I heard. Well, it happened when a large group
21 arrived from Sanski Most towards the end of July.
22 Q. You heard about this but you didn't see it.
23 A. Yes, I heard about it, but I didn't see it. That's correct.
24 Q. You couldn't confirm that the person who told you that was telling
25 the truth.
1 A. No, I couldn't.
2 Q. You spoke about death certificates that Colonel Popovic asked you
3 to write and which didn't contain the exact cause of death. Isn't it true
4 to say that Colonel Popovic then sent these certificates, these death
5 certificates, with -- which mentioned a false cause of death to his
7 A. I don't know what he did with them. But as they are nowhere among
8 these documents from the 1st Krajina Corps and the Crisis Staff, well,
9 that's why it surprises me. But as Mr. Popovic isn't here to give his
10 opinion and his testimony, et cetera -- we parted ways in a nice way. I
11 don't know where he is and I haven't heard anything about him. I'm in
12 Banja Luka very often now.
13 Q. Did Colonel Popovic tell you why he needed false certificates?
14 A. He didn't say anything about that. We didn't talk -- there was
15 not much conversation. Why? Because people were killed. So that it
16 didn't seem as if they died in Manjaca. Probably for that reason.
17 Q. So you allow for the possibility that these false certificates
18 were sent by Colonel Popovic to his superiors.
19 A. I don't know what he did. It wasn't for me to think about that.
20 I wasn't an active officer. I wasn't a soldier in Manjaca. And I had no
21 authority to deal with this.
22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar show
23 the witness Exhibit DT2.
24 Q. Is this an order from the command of the 1st Krajina Corps dated
25 the 7th of June, 1992?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. And if you have a look at paragraph 2. It was ordered that the
3 prisoners should be allowed to receive cigarettes and food from their
4 families, from the Red Cross, and from other religious and humanitarian
6 A. Yes. I can see that.
7 Q. Isn't it true to say that Merhamet went to Manjaca?
8 A. They say that they went there. But believe me, I wasn't in
9 contact with Merhamet and I didn't see what they brought with them. They
10 did come, but I had no contact with them.
11 Q. But you don't deny the fact that Merhamet went to Manjaca.
12 A. No, I don't deny that. I didn't have any contact with them.
13 Q. And according to paragraph 3 of this order, it was necessary to
14 behave towards the prisoners in a humane and dignified manner, without
15 violence, insults, and it was necessary to provide them with
16 accommodation, sustenance, and medical care for the sick in accordance
17 with the provisions of international war law. That's what it says in this
18 order; isn't that right?
19 A. Yes, that's what it says. And it's written very nicely. But
20 that's not what actually happened.
21 Q. So Colonel Popovic didn't respect this order.
22 A. I don't know. It was not like that, and I do not know who it was
23 that did not respect it.
24 Q. I believe you were in the same stable as Omer Filipovic. Is that
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. And Judge Draganovic was also in that stable, wasn't he?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You said sometime ago that the night when Omer Filipovic was
5 killed, you were sleeping in the hospital.
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. On the 3rd June, on page 68, you said the last time that Omer
8 Filipovic left the stable he could not walk under his own steam, that he
9 had to be carried.
10 A. That is correct, yes.
11 Q. And the night when Omer Filipovic left the stable for the last
12 time, were you still in the stable?
13 A. Yes, I was.
14 Q. And therefore the statement, according to which Omer Filipovic
15 that last night left the stable running, would not be true, would it?
16 A. He couldn't. No way. After the few days which preceded it, he
17 simply couldn't do it.
18 Q. This is in the testimony of witness 7.77, page 5089 of the French
19 transcript of the 26th of April.
20 You also spoke about a representative of the Red Cross. Did you
21 personally have the opportunity to talk with the Red Cross
22 representatives -- or representative?
23 A. Well, you know, only when they come to the infirmary. And then we
24 talk about medicines they need to bring. I didn't really dare, because
25 I'd been advised not to talk with them too much, so I didn't just for the
1 sake of my safety.
2 Q. Can you confirm that other prisoners had the opportunity to talk
3 with the representative of the Red Cross without the presence of the
5 A. Well, yes, it did happen. But after that major problems ensued,
6 because night falls and evil comes.
7 Q. Yesterday you said that in Manjaca you were hit by only one
9 A. Yes, that was right -- that was immediately after my arrival.
10 That was only that first day in the evening.
11 Q. On the 3rd June, on page 67 of the transcript, you said: [In
12 English] "Nobody beat me."
13 A. No. I didn't count that, because that was sort of putting on
14 record. He didn't beat me as we were getting off the truck. But only
15 when we were down there. And I explained that. When we arrived in the
16 stable and I was talking with military persons, when that one Bula made a
17 sign of cross over me, that policeman when he -- but what I said. That I
18 would never be able to learn, they wouldn't learn it by the morning and I
19 wouldn't want to. Then he hit me and then I flew about 2 metres over all
20 the others. I already explained that. But nobody beat me, and I do not
21 call this beating properly and I wasn't beaten there after that ever. It
22 was only on that first day, and I never said that.
23 Q. [Interpretation] You said on page 57 of the 3rd of June: [In
24 English] That there were 8.700 prisoners in Manjaca.
25 A. Well, there were over 8.000. That was the largest number. But it
1 varied. There would be several hundred -- or several thousand --
2 there was never an equal number of prisoners for two days running.
3 Q. [Interpretation] If I tell you that there were 5.300-something,
4 would you be able to go along with that figure?
5 A. Well, that figure also held true on some days. Sometimes even
7 Q. And I tell you that according to this statement, the number 5.436
8 is the total number of prisoners who went through Manjaca. Would you go
9 along with that statement?
10 A. Well, let me tell you. As far as they explained to me. I
11 couldn't count them, because I couldn't do that. But in the commander
12 usually said how many of them were, that is how busy I would be kept, how
13 many people I had to examine and so on and so forth. And this figure did
14 come up of over 8.000, and it was mentioned by people who were running the
15 place. I can't call them administrators because it's a civilian word.
16 Q. Yesterday you spoke about Enver Burnic. And you said -- and that
17 is on page 9 of the LiveNote that Enver Burnic frequently came to Manjaca
18 with the police and also went away with them. I'd like to have this
19 clarified. Do you mean -- did you mean that Burnic worked for the police?
20 A. No. He was kept in Sana. He was under police custody, but he
21 came with them several times in Manjaca. When the policemen came from
22 Sanski Most for investigation, he came with them several times and he came
23 the last time when I told you that they suffocated in the truck because of
24 the lack of air and emaciation and so on and so forth. Then he and that
25 other one, that dentistry student returned that last time with that group.
1 Those -- those who drove away, those who had suffocated, those who had
2 suffocated. After that he never came again nor really was he seen again.
3 And every trace of him is lost. I mean, we do not know what happened to
4 him, just as we do not know what happened that those who had suffocated.
5 I'm certain about that.
6 Q. Do you know why did Burnic come and leave with the police?
7 A. No, I don't. No, I don't know.
8 Q. You spoke about a guard called Bula. Can you tell us until when
9 was this guard in Manjaca?
10 A. Until the very end. Until I left. I said yesterday I don't
11 really hold it much against the police. Whenever we were lined up,
12 whenever there was some trouble, there were always those who ran the
14 Q. Isn't it true that after Filipovic's death some guards were
16 A. I wouldn't know that. To be quite honest, yes, they changed.
17 Some left, some came. But there were also some who were there throughout.
18 Q. You were released in November 1992; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, yes, it is.
20 Q. In your statement you said that you were released on the 24th of
21 November. This is page 17.
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. Weren't you set free on the 14th of November in point of fact?
24 A. Well, there are two things in collision. I could never really
25 accept either, because I didn't know the date of my release and I never
1 gave it a thought afterwards. I do not deny it.
2 Q. Before you were released, there were also other people who were
3 set free; isn't it true?
4 A. It is.
5 Q. And there were also exchanges of prisoners, weren't there?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Yesterday you spoke about some Chetniks who were outside the
8 camp. Do you remember that?
9 A. I do. But these are Chetniks who were brought to me. I examined
10 them. And they went on a hunger strike, and they were under custody. And
11 after that, I was asked a few days later what to do with them and I said
12 they should be sent to a military hospital in order to avoid
13 endocrinological changes in their organisms. That is a sickness. And
14 they were driven away and I don't know what happened after that.
15 Q. Isn't it true that at the time when you were in Manjaca outside
16 the camp there was a great deal of insecurity because of the extremist
17 groups which were out of control?
18 A. Possibly. Possibly. It was said that there was security to avoid
19 their breaking in. Nobody was allowed to enter the camp. Even though
20 those who came to supply the camp, when the police from Sanski Most,
21 Prijedor, or Kljuc came, that is where they usually came from -- we knew
22 when they were call -- when there were roll calls then. But it didn't
23 happen very often. And they did on such occasions at times come in and
24 beat, but it didn't happen much. Seldom.
25 Q. Isn't it true that the Manjaca detainees at that time in 1992
1 could not be released without having some accommodations provided for them
2 elsewhere, precisely because of these extremist groups?
3 A. There were -- no, not near. They were usually taken to Banja
4 Luka for exchange or to Travnik, to Jajce, to Knin, and those are those
5 for the most part. They went to Banja Luka or went back to the places
6 where they had come from. But that was a smaller number.
7 Q. Yesterday you spoke about a visit how General Talic visited the
9 JUDGE AGIUS: [Previous translation continues] ... put the
10 question, since you're opening something different after the break. We'll
11 break for 15 minutes.
12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.
14 --- Recess taken at 5.14 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 5.34 p.m.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
17 Wait, wait, wait, wait. We've still got to wait for the accused.
18 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Yesterday you spoke about the visit which General Talic made to
20 the Manjaca camp. Did you personally see General Talic there?
21 A. I did.
22 Q. How far were you from General Talic or the person that you saw?
23 A. 30 to 40 metres, give or take.
24 Q. You said that you knew General Talic -- that you had known
25 General Talic before the war.
1 A. Well, let me tell you. Before the war, I'd ask if General Talic
2 knew Colonel Muharem Talic who came to be his assistant and who was from
3 the same place as I was. That is how I knew him. On the 29th and 30th,
4 he was in Sanski Most and then he returned. When they saw the situation,
5 then he was returned from Banja Luka to Belgrade two days later. But I
6 knew Mr. General during the war and before the war.
7 Q. Excuse me. But what was on the 29th and 30th? Who was it on the
8 29th and 30th in Sanski Most?
9 A. The then-General Talic's assistant. And he has the same last
10 name, Muharem Talic. Colonel Muharem Talic.
11 Q. Yeah, right. But can you tell me where did you meet
12 General Talic? How do you know him?
13 A. I know him from television and like this, by sight, from Banja
14 Luka. There were no official meetings or something. I know General Talic
15 by sight.
16 Q. Do you know that -- when did General Talic become the [Realtime
17 transcript read in error "member"] commander of the 5th Corps?
18 A. Well, I heard that he became the commander of the 5th Corps
19 towards the very end of the war -- towards the beginning of the war, on
20 the eve of the war. But don't ask me where.
21 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm going to interrupt about
22 the translation.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's mistake.
24 MS. KORNER: [Previous translation continues] ... it was when did
25 General Talic become the commander of the 5th Corps. And it's been
1 translated as a member.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right, Ms. Korner. The -- you are
3 absolutely right.
4 MS. KORNER: I think obviously the translation into B/C/S was
5 all right. But in English, it was wrong.
6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that it was well
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Did you ask the witness when did General Talic
9 become the commander of the 5th Corps? That's what we were told. In
10 English at least.
11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. But the
12 interpretation into B/C/S was correct, and because the witness answered
13 that General Talic became the commander.
14 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. If Your Honour looks at the question --
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, I know. You are right.
16 MS. KORNER: Yes.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: You're a hundred per cent right.
18 But for the record, you did understand that the question was
19 related to when General Momir Talic became commander, when you came to
20 know that General Talic became commander of the 5th Corps?
21 THE WITNESS: [No audible response]
22 THE INTERPRETER: The witness nods.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes or no?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: Because we have to -- the computer doesn't tell
1 me --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Thank you.
4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Do you know when did General Talic come to Banja Luka?
6 A. No, I don't. These are military matters. I did not follow that.
7 I wasn't interested in such things.
8 Q. But when did you have the occasion to see General Talic in Banja
10 A. In Banja Luka -- what do I know. It was on the eve of the war. I
11 went to Banja Luka. I had now -- I never came across any problems when
12 going to Banja Luka and other places. And on television.
13 Q. Do you know who was General Talic's Chief of Staff?
14 A. No, I don't. I know that my neighbour came. That is what he told
15 us in Sanski Most that, he had been sent to be General Talic's assistant
16 both the name sake, same surname. He came to Sanski Most on the 29th. He
17 came to the camp, visited the camp, returned and then two or three days
18 later he went to Belgrade, so that his village went unscathed until 1995,
19 when Arkan returned to his village. His village Sehovci was quiet until
20 1995. That was the colonel's birthplace.
21 Q. This person, Muharem --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated]
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Please answer the question and nothing but the
25 question. The question was a very simple one. Do you know who was
1 General Talic's Chief of Staff? You either know or you don't know. If
2 you know, you tell us. Well, that's it, why do I have to hear all this
3 story. I mean, this will keep you here until tomorrow if you continue
4 like this.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. I won't. Thank you very
6 much. I'm sorry.
7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. This person, Muharem Talic, your neighbour, he is a Muslim, isn't
10 A. Yes, he is.
11 Q. And he was a member of the Serb army, wasn't he?
12 A. Yes, the Yugoslav People's Army. That is where he became a
14 Q. Yesterday you said on page 39 that General Talic had visited the
15 camp on two occasions. Do you remember that? It was yesterday.
16 A. I remember it, and I quote. He was 30 or 40 metres away from me.
17 He was in the command. I never said that he was in the stables. And as I
18 heard from the police, he came to visit the troops that were in the
19 training ground at Manjaca, because Manjaca is a training centre. And he
20 was in the command then, and I saw him as he was coming out, when he was
21 on his way, and that is sure. And others also told me that he would be
22 coming. He did not give any lectures. He did not visit the stables.
23 Q. Yesterday you said that he came twice.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. If you look at your written statement, the statement to the OTP,
1 page 15 in the English version. It is the second -- the third paragraph,
2 the last sentence. In the B/C/S, it is the penultimate paragraph, the
3 last sentence. You said: [In English] "As far as I know, this was
4 Talic's only visit."
5 A. Well, this is -- I stand by this.
6 Q. [Interpretation] You stand by one visit or two visits?
7 A. I saw him twice. Twice.
8 Q. And if I tell you that you are wrong and that it was not
9 General Talic, would you agree with that?
10 A. I wouldn't.
11 Q. Are you telling us that General Talic came to the camp because you
12 had seen him or because somebody had told you that?
13 A. Because I had seen him. That is why I said that. That is why I
14 say that. And I also heard in advance that he would be coming.
15 Q. And that person whom you saw, you would not say that it is
16 possible that it was somebody else?
17 A. Well, it wasn't far away, so I cannot say that it was not he.
18 True, there are people who look alike, but I do not think that that was
20 Q. But you are not really sure that it was General Talic
22 A. Oh, I am sure, yes.
23 Q. You spoke about the conditions in Manjaca.
24 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar show
25 the witness Exhibit P807.
1 Q. If you have a look at photograph number 8, the one which is
2 mistakenly marked as a clinic, as an infirmary. This photograph
3 represents a place where you were able to place your patients.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And is it correct to say that the infirmary was elsewhere?
6 A. We call it a clinic. It was at a different place, outside the
7 fence. This is inside the camp, behind the first stables.
8 Q. So in fact in the Manjaca camp, there were two places where you
9 could treat sick people; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 Q. Could you have a look at Exhibit P808 now. Is this a photograph
12 of inmates in Manjaca?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And all the detainees, all the inmates in this photograph, have a
15 blanket underneath them; is that correct?
16 A. Yes. Here it's correct. These are more serious cases, et
17 cetera. Yes, that's true. You can see there are two men who have plaster
19 Q. So the men who have their -- who have plaster casts, they were
20 given treatment.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And behind the beds of these persons, you can see canisters with
23 water; is that correct?
24 A. I can't really see water canisters. In front of the heads? Yes,
25 I can see two canisters, yes.
1 Q. In fact, there are several of them but some are concealed; is that
3 A. I don't know. I can see two. Maybe a third one towards the end,
4 but I'm not sure. I can see two.
5 Q. The day before yesterday you spoke about the examination of four
6 persons who had a skin disease.
7 A. On the very first day, yes.
8 Q. And at the hearing here -- it's page 55 of the LiveNote, dated the
9 3rd of June -- you said that the soldiers brought medical supplies a few
10 days later.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And then with these medical supplies, were you able to treat the
13 sick people with these medical supplies?
14 A. Yes, I was.
15 Q. Before the police delivered these medical supplies, did you have
16 any medical supplies?
17 A. No, we didn't.
18 Q. In that case, why did you say in your written statement given to
19 the Office of the Prosecutor - and it's on page 8 in the English version
20 and it's page 8 in the Serbo-Croat version. It's the last sentence in the
21 second paragraph in the English version. And it's the last sentence in
22 the penultimate paragraph in the Serbo-Croat version. You said: [In
23 English] "I was not permitted to treat them." [Interpretation] Didn't you
24 say that?
25 A. No, never.
1 Q. I suppose it's a translation error again. Do you admit that this
2 might be possible?
3 A. I don't know what it is, but I never said that. That's the first
4 time I examined people in Manjaca.
5 Q. And the truth is that in fact the soldiers brought medicine and
6 you were able to treat these people.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You also examined a young man whose shoulder had been dislocated.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you recommended that he be taken to Banja Luka; is that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So in fact -- and in fact he was taken to the hospital in Banja
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And later on you received news about this young man.
17 A. Yes, later, when I had left and gone to Switzerland. From
18 Karlovac this person contacted me over the phone, this young man. He said
19 he was well and he thanked me for what I had done and he thanked those who
20 had helped him in the hospital in Banja Luka.
21 Q. So in fact this young man was taken to the Banja Luka hospital and
22 he was treated there; is that true?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I'm going to read an extract from a report from an international
25 organisation written on the basis of a Merhamet report with regard to
1 Manjaca, about Manjaca. It's a report dated June 1992. It's Exhibit
2 P763, communicated -- disclosed to us pursuant to Rule 70
3 [As interpreted]. It's page 3, and it's the first paragraph.
4 [In English] "A delegation from --"
5 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it's come up at Rule 60. It should read
6 Rule 70.
7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: 70, yes.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Ms. Korner.
9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC:
10 Q. "A delegation from Merhamet visited a prisoner camp at Manjaca
11 mountain where 1.200 persons are held by the army. Material conditions
12 were poor, especially concerning hygiene. But there were no signs of
13 maltreatment or execution of prisoners."
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Before you answer, Dr. Sabanovic, Ms. Korner --
15 MS. KORNER: I wasn't asked, Your Honour, but I'm happy for it to
16 be dealt with in this way.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
18 MS. KORNER: I've been asked on an earlier occasion with another
19 witness. So I'm happy --
20 JUDGE AGIUS: This is what I wanted to ensure, because this is
21 also being extracted from a confidential document.
22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes. I apologise. I'll
23 do it next time. But as I asked this to -- with regard to the
24 preceding witness, I thought that this authorisation was still valid.
25 Next time I will ask for permission.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I think that's what should be done on a
2 regular basis. Don't think anything for granted because each time the
3 question may turn out to be different and one answer could lead to another
4 question and so on and so forth. So we have to be extremely careful.
5 Thank you. You may answer the question. Doctor, the question
6 is: "A delegation from Merhamet visited a prisoner camp at Manjaca
7 mountain where 1.200 persons are held by the army. Material conditions
8 were poor, especially concerning hygiene. But there were no signs of
9 maltreatment or execution of prisoners."
10 Now, your question, Madam Fauveau, to the witness?
11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Sir, do you agree with this report?
13 A. I never saw them in Manjaca, nor did they have a look at the
14 hygienic conditions or anything else. I'm not aware of this. I'm not
15 aware of them being there and contacting me, and they didn't check on the
16 hygienic conditions.
17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But again, I mean, you're not answering the
18 question, doctor. The question was: Would you -- if assuming for a
19 moment -- accept for a moment that what is contained in this report,
20 namely that Merhamet reported on what they found in Manjaca and that they
21 stated the words -- or made the statement that I told you, that I read out
22 to you, would you agree that they gave a faithful description of what
23 there was in Manjaca; yes or no? It's not a question of whether they
24 went --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: No. That's your answer.
2 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. The Prosecutor showed you a video cassette of the Manjaca camp.
4 I'm going to ask you to have a look at the following part of the same
5 video, an extract which contains Paddy Ashdown's statement when he left
6 the Manjaca camp. And I'm going to ask you to read the subtitles in
7 Serbo-Croat because the sound is very bad.
8 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the video be shown.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: This time it will be your turn to tell the
10 technicians when to stop.
11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that I've explained
12 everything very well.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: To them already.
14 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] So I think that they know.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. In other words we cannot depend on the
17 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the video be shown.
18 [Videotape played]
19 Q. Sir, can you read the phrase which is on your screen.
20 A. Yes. Yes, I can.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can you read it out so that the interpreters
22 will translate it to us, because we don't know your language.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "When leaving, he stated that
24 however dismal things might appear".
25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could you show the
1 following sequence.
2 [Videotape played]
3 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Further on. Further on.
4 Q. Could you read that now, please.
5 A. "It seems that this camp is being run correctly."
6 Q. Sir, this video dates back to August 1992. And do you agree with
7 this statement?
8 A. Yes. Well, let's say yes.
9 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I
11 apologise. I've finished earlier.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Okay. Thank you,
13 Madam Fauveau.
14 I suppose the other witness has already been --
15 MS. KORNER: Taken away.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: -- Taken away.
17 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I have --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Re-examination?
19 MS. KORNER: Yes. I think just on the basis of that last one.
20 Re-examined by Ms. Korner:
21 Q. Dr. Sabanovic, you were asked having seen in fact not what the
22 commentators said, do you agree with the statement that the camp is being
23 run correctly? And you said yes, you did agree with that statement.
24 A. I couldn't answer with yes or no here.
25 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. My question
1 was precise. In August 1992.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
3 The people who seemed to be in a good condition towards the end.
4 Well that's what they said because they had to say such things. That's
5 why I said yes, that was a reason. I could change many things here at
6 this trial, but I'll mention this later.
7 MS. KORNER:
8 Q. All right.
9 A. If on the basis of the war I'm told about the doors and where the
10 doors are and then you try to judge whether someone is guilty or not,
11 well, some people might know better than I do what's correct and what
12 isn't. Then that surprises me a bit, so I have to react in this way.
13 Q. No. I think the question that you were asked was did you agree
14 with the statement that the camp was being run correctly. And you said --
15 A. I said yes.
16 Q. -- that you couldn't -- you said yes.
17 First of all, do you agree from what you've described to us that
18 this camp was being run correctly, properly?
19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] He has just answered that
21 MS. KORNER: I know he has.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: He answered it with reference to a particular point
23 in time, Madam Fauveau. That's August of 1992.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat that answer.
25 JUDGE AGIUS: The interpreters did not hear what you said. I
1 heard you said Kranja [phoen] or something like that.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that this had all been
3 edited, set up. If I were here -- if I stayed here for a month, we
4 wouldn't be able to arrive at the truth, because all these documents, et
5 cetera, they have -- they contain many things which unfortunately couldn't
6 be explained that easily. So sometimes I skip over something, and I
7 regret that such things happened. It's difficult for me.
8 MS. KORNER:
9 Q. Dr. Sabanovic, all I want you to just concentrate on is this: You
10 have described to us what you say happened in the camp, the beatings and
11 everything like that. Is what you have told us about that the truth?
12 A. More than the truth.
13 Q. Right at the beginning you looked at the list of the Geneva
14 Conventions that was sent to the camp. You were asked by me whether or
15 not those conventions had been obeyed by the people who ran the camp. Do
16 you remember that?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. I'm going to ask you again. Were the conditions that are set out
19 in that sheet of paper followed by the guards, the commanders of the
21 A. No. The Geneva Conventions weren't respected, not in any sense.
22 Q. Thank you very much, Dr. Sabanovic.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Dr. Sabanovic, we have come to the end of your
25 testimony. You will not be asked any further questions now, and you will
1 be able to return to your country and to your work. But before you leave
2 this courtroom, may I on behalf of the Tribunal thank you for having come
3 here to give evidence. I apologise to you if you have been kept waiting
4 for some time and if your testimony was prolonged for a few days, perhaps
5 longer than you expected. And with that, I think I can ask the usher to
6 escort you. Once more, thank you for having come here.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. And I would
8 like to thank everyone else in this courtroom. It wasn't difficult for
9 me. A lot of time has passed, so there were a few things that, et
10 cetera. I don't think I want to lie about anyone and I don't want -- I
11 want to tell the truth and I shall always try to do so. I'm glad if I
12 have satisfied you to a certain extent, and I regret that there were
13 people who were the cause of this evil. And thank you and goodbye.
14 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. And have a safe journey home.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE AGIUS: Anything further before we can call it a day?
17 MS. KORNER: Yes. First of all, the question of the witnesses.
18 Your Honours should be -- I want to make sure that Your Honours have it.
19 For Witness 7.165, who is the witness after the next witness.
20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The next one is 7.46. No?
21 MS. KORNER: No. 76.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: 7.76, yes.
23 MS. KORNER: The one after that is 7.165. And Your Honours
24 will -- it was put in front of Your Honours. But I want to make sure now
25 that you have documents.
1 This witness produced a diary.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.
3 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, it is a diary that was written
4 effectively about as contemporaneously as you can get shortly after his
5 release in Manjaca. Therefore, I'm proposing to use that and indeed
6 examine him from some of those entries in the diary. So that's why we've
7 copied it for Your Honours.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: And I assume that this has been already disclosed.
9 MS. KORNER: It was disclosed to the Defence sometime ago. But
10 just so that you understand, because it's a fuller account of -- he's
11 going to deal with the incidents of suffocation and another incident, and
12 it's a fuller account of that that appeared in his statement.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.
14 MS. KORNER: Now, Your Honour, the real difficulty is this:
15 Because we've got the week's break and because we won't be able to start
16 the next witness and I don't know how long the first witness is going to
17 take tomorrow - that's 7.65. He was asked for, as I understand it --
18 Mr. Ackerman, you'll recall we discussed it, didn't require his attendance
19 at all but Madam Fauveau did, and there's no dispute about the killing.
20 So if the reality is -- Ms. Richterova will be calling the witness and
21 estimates that to call him in chief is something in the region of -- if
22 there's no objection to leading and the rest, then will take something
23 between an hour and an hour and a half. So let's say the first part of
24 the session. If Madam Fauveau can finish her cross-examination within the
25 second part, leaving the next witness to start for after the second break,
1 I have no doubt that that -- this witness in chief is going to take the
2 best part of a session, because he's got so much detail of what actually
3 happened. So I therefore would like some indication given, if that's
4 possible, first as to whether it's -- it's likely that his
5 cross-examination will be concluded on the Friday. He gives no direct
6 evidence against either accused. He's not going to say that he saw them
7 in Manjaca -- or whether or not he's not going to finish, in which case
8 he'll have to go for a week and whether that's a desirable attribute.
9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau.
10 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] As far as tomorrow's
11 witness is concerned, I think that 45 minutes or one hour at the most will
12 be sufficient for me. But obviously that depends on the
14 As for as the Friday witness is concerned, I have no idea. I
15 really couldn't say.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: And you, Mr. Ackerman?
17 MR. ACKERMAN: It's virtually impossible to -- for me to say that
18 we can complete all examinations of both these witnesses by Friday at
19 close of business. We haven't heard their direct. It has not happened
20 yet that a witness has testified totally in accordance with their
21 statements. There's always new material. And so it's just difficult to
22 do. I -- if the Court wants to be safe and not have him gone in the midst
23 of his testimony, then we shouldn't call him, 'cause that's the safe
24 thing. But we did that with Judge Draganovic, and I don't think it caused
25 any serious problem that he had to leave and come back. And this guy will
1 have to leave and come back in any event, so it seems to me we get as far
2 as we can and bring him back afterward if we have to. But if you don't
3 want to break up his testimony, then I would say let's send him home
4 tomorrow. It's up to you, Your Honour. I mean --
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I know it's up to us, but the question is I -- there
6 are several issues involved, and I would rather -- what's your preference,
7 Ms. Korner?
8 MS. KORNER: Well, I -- I don't have a particular preference at
9 all. He's here. He arrived yesterday. I can certainly conclude his
10 evidence in chief by Friday, unless there's a lot more cross-examination
11 of the first witness tomorrow than I anticipate. So he can go back -- he
12 can start and go back.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Because as I see it, I can hardly recall one single
14 witness that we disposed of in just one session.
15 MS. KORNER: I think we've had two so far.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: No. But it's the exception rather than the rule.
17 This one, if he's got this diary -- I don't know. I'm not very
18 optimistic that we could actually start and finish. And in that case,
19 from the --
20 MS. KORNER: What I'm not anxious to do, Your Honour is waste any
21 time at all. I've had a look at the July schedule, and to my horror we're
22 sitting something like ten days in the whole of July, which is just, if I
23 may put it that way, ludicrous.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But we are not the only ones, you know.
25 MS. KORNER: No. I know. It's just as scheduling, it just
1 beggars belief. However, so what I'm not anxious to do is to lose any
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, if you think that the course of justice would
4 not be endangered in any way by having him returned to where he comes
5 from, having started giving evidence, as we did with Judge Draganovic,
6 after all, then we can proceed that way and we wouldn't have wasted a
7 day. In any case, I mean the assumption is that if we send him straight
8 away home now and bring him back after the end of next week, the expense
9 from the cost -- cost to the Tribunal point of view --
10 MS. KORNER: Yes.
11 JUDGE AGIUS: -- is not going to be --
12 MS. KORNER: No. It's not the expense. It's --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Exactly. I'm not giving that any importance.
14 MS. KORNER: Yes. The thing that concerns me, Your Honour, is
15 this: It's becoming gradually apparent that the part of the Defence case,
16 as being run by Mr. Ackerman, is that there is a great big conspiracy
17 going on in Sanski Most, effectively orchestrated by AID. The witness
18 lives in Sanski Most. He will be going back to Sanski Most. What I'm
19 anxious not to have to happen is that we're then going to spend -- waste
20 half an hour or so on a series of questions about who he's spoken to and
21 who he's seen in Sanski Most and any changes to his evidence and the
22 like. And that's -- that's what's concerning me at the moment.
23 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Ackerman never -- never puts such questions.
24 I've never heard him put such --
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Absolutely. I was just going to say that.
1 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.
2 MS. KORNER: Absolutely. Not a single question about AID, who
3 he's seen, and we waste 20 minutes thereabouts every single time there's a
4 witness from Sanski Most. And that's what concerns me at the moment.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: He's never mentioned --
6 Yes, Madam Fauveau.
7 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I may try
8 to facilitate your work. As you know, I'm all by myself still this week.
9 I hope that I was cooperative, just like my client, who agreed to be
10 represented by me only for a longer period. However, I seriously doubt
11 that I shall be able to properly prepare the cross-examination of a third
12 witness, if he comes on Friday.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Madam Fauveau, let me say it in open court
14 that this Chamber has not had for a single moment any reason, small or
15 big, to doubt your cooperation. You have -- and that applies to
16 Mr. Ackerman as well. You have been most cooperative. I must say that.
17 However - however - we have to take a decision now.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE AGIUS: I think, Ms. Korner, the -- this Chamber tends at
20 not wasting Friday doing nothing. I mean, it's -- as you say --
21 MS. KORNER: Oh, I wasn't -- I wasn't suggesting for one moment --
22 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I know that. But I think we ought to bring
23 this witness here on the first occasion, after we have disposed of the
24 previous one, and he starts his evidence. And then we'll take it up from
25 there, and he will return when necessary to continue and conclude his
1 evidence if he needs to return. I think that's the best way. Otherwise
2 we would be wasting another day, which -- we don't have anything else to
4 MS. KORNER: I don't -- well, we do, actually, Your Honour. But
5 I -- can I just mention the outstanding matters that are not yet dealt
6 with in the last remaining minutes.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
8 MS. KORNER: First of all, Variant A and B. There's been a ruling
9 in the Samac case. I can take it from that that it is now accepted that
10 that document is admitted without us having to call further evidence to
11 support its authenticity? Because Mr. Ackerman said that they were
12 awaiting the ruling in the Samac case. There has been such a ruling.
13 If -- if there is still the residual doubt that this is a
14 document that was issued by the SDS and referred to in countless other
15 documents, publications, speeches, well, then we will call all the
16 evidence before Your Honour that was called in the Samac case. I'm merely
17 listing now the issues that are still not resolved.
18 Secondly, Your Honour, we still haven't resolved or haven't been
19 told as to whether the redactions in the Rule 92 Banja Luka statement are
21 Third, we still have Mr. Ackerman's application to enter into
22 evidence the transcript of a witness from a previous case. And we made
23 brief submissions. But Mr. Ackerman, when I heard say last week when I
24 objected to, I retain the objection, and I await with interest
25 Mr. Ackerman's grounds for saying it's admissible or relevant or this
2 I'm trying think, there was one other matter I've now lost it
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Dzonlic?
4 MS. KORNER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: I know --
6 MS. KORNER: There is Mr. Dzonlic's documents. And I'm perfectly
7 certain there are some other bits and pieces.
8 But Your Honour, all those are still to the best of my
9 recollection outstanding matters which ought to be dealt with at some
11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The Variant A and B, I don't know if you are
12 in a position or prepared to make a statement now, today. If you're not,
13 you will have time to do that. But we will need to know exactly where we
14 stand so that if evidence needs to be brought forward, it will be brought
15 forward without delay.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: There is an intervening fact -- and I don't want to
17 make an argument based on the intervening fact until I have more
18 knowledge. I'm told by a lawyer from the Bosanski Samac case that one of
19 the things that developed during that was that the document had been --
20 had been originally handed to the Prosecutor by Alispahic who is the
21 person who is the number one charged in Sarajevo with engaging in
22 terrorist activities and things of that nature. Now, I don't know if
23 that's true and I can't know if that's true until I look into it a little
24 further. That's just information that I have. If that's true, it could
25 affect how I feel about that document.
1 With regard to the Rule 92 Banja Luka documents, I have no
2 objection to them having been -- the changes that have been made to them.
3 With regard to the transcript from the previous case, what I said
4 in court when Ms. Korner was not here was that I believe that she wanted
5 to argue that to Your Honours, and I therefore would not offer it without
6 giving her the opportunity to argue against it. If Your Honours want to
7 hear my basis for it being admitted, I'd be happy to tell you.
8 With regard to the Dzonlic documents, I told you last week that I
9 had decided to send them off to CLS for translation and would enter them
10 as exhibits -- or seek to enter them as exhibits when they returned. So
11 that's where I stand on all of those things.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: I think it's --
13 MS. KORNER: Well, first of all -- sorry, Your Honour.
14 First of all, no, the onus is on Mr. Ackerman to show why a
15 transcript of a -- of examination of a witness that's got nothing to do
16 with this case relating to another person that's got nothing to do with
17 this case should be admissible. It's not for me to. It's for him to
18 justify it.
19 JUDGE AGIUS: And I say so subject to correction. I may be
20 completely confusing matters. But I am under the impression that when
21 this matter arose, subsequently, as the -- your cross-examination
22 progressed, it was more or less superseded by events. I mean, I got that
23 impression. I don't know. I may be confusing matters. But I got the
24 impression that at the end, you sort of abandoned the idea of needing --
25 and that you would reserve your position for later once you have verified
1 some other events that you were referring to. I may be -- I may be
2 completely going astray, Mr. Ackerman.
3 MR. ACKERMAN: You're not. You're not.
4 JUDGE AGIUS: But I think -- that's the impression that I formed
5 in my mind.
6 MR. ACKERMAN: You're not. And you've reminded me of, I think,
7 exactly what I said about that. There's this whole -- there's this whole
8 issue that is under investigation, both by the Prosecutor's Office and by
9 us, regarding the AID issue. And I was last told by Mr. Cayley that there
10 are about four boxes of material coming from Sarajevo regarding that
12 JUDGE AGIUS: Will you be requesting an adjournment of two weeks,
13 one month?
14 MR. ACKERMAN: I don't think I'll need any adjournment at all.
15 I'm satisfied the Prosecutor will provide us with whatever material is in
16 those four boxes that is relevant to the credibility of any documents that
17 might have come from AID. And so I'm awaiting that.
18 I'm also frankly awaiting more information from Sarajevo about the
19 nature of that case and what the exact charges are. As I understand it
20 now, there has actually been no indictment filed yet. It's still in the
21 early investigative stages. There are charges and five people are in
22 jail, and I think that's as far as it's gone. And so I think -- I'm quite
23 certain I'll be filing something with regard to that whole matter. But
24 because of the way we're handling exhibits, we have until almost the last
25 moment for the Court to determine how it's going to treat various
1 exhibits. So it's not something that I think has to be dealt with
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. My recollection, Mr. Ackerman, I think
4 actually when this evolved further, what happened was that first there was
5 an agreement forthcoming from you that -- and at that moment you were
6 still here present -- that you would postpone this till the -- towards the
7 end of the testimony of the cross-examination -- or your cross-examination
8 of that particular witness.
9 MR. ACKERMAN: That's correct.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: But towards the end. Then you came to the
11 conclusion that there was no point in pushing any further your previous
12 request for admitting -- having this transcript admitted, that you will
13 maybe feel the need to do that again at some later point in time but
14 obviously in reference to some other witness or some other evidence that
15 you would bring over.
16 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, it's --
17 JUDGE AGIUS: That's my recollection.
18 MR. ACKERMAN: You're dead right. It is tied up with what I think
19 may be a larger issue, and it doesn't bear consideration outside
20 consideration of that larger issue. So let's leave it for the moment.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. Then one other thing -- one other matter
22 which is outstanding, Ms. Korner, is the --
23 MS. KORNER: Sorry.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: -- statement of the dead --
25 MS. KORNER: Yes. We're waiting -- Your Honour, that's going to
1 wait until after the Prijedor section, which will now be September.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: All right.
3 MS. KORNER: Because it relates to the witness who's going to
5 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.
6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I just want to make it absolutely clear
7 that that transcript doesn't even remotely begin to get entered as any
8 kind of exhibit, whether it's a temporary acting exhibit, an unpaid
9 exhibit, or whatever exhibit, until this has been argued, because I object
10 to that in its entirety.
11 Your Honour, as far as Mr. Dzonlic is concerned -- and I'm sorry,
12 it may have been last week and I missed it -- so I understand that
13 Mr. Ackerman is in fact going to enter all the documents we gave him as
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. In fact, I remember him stating that those
16 will become Defence exhibits.
17 MS. KORNER: Fine. Okay. Well, in that case, otherwise we'd
18 simply enter them ourselves. But I'm perfectly happy for it to go in
19 through the Defence.
20 And as far as the dead witness is concerned --
21 JUDGE AGIUS: The situation hasn't changed.
22 MS. KORNER: -- the situation will have to wait.
23 And just -- I did say this once but perhaps I ought to remind Your
24 Honours and the Defence. The next municipality will be Kljuc. The
25 document -- the List of Documents is being prepared and I think will be
1 given to the Defence this Friday before the break. And it may be that
2 Your Honours will get the bundles as well.
3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. I thank you for providing us with that
4 information now.
5 MS. KORNER: Yes. And Your Honour, we'll be doing the Rule 92
6 motion as well over the next week.
7 Your Honour, what we are anxious to try and achieve, which is why
8 I'm somewhat distressed about the few days we appear to be sitting in July
9 with court maintenance and the like, is to complete Kljuc municipality
10 by the end of July, by the time of the break, which I understand is
11 the 26th.
12 JUDGE AGIUS: We still have -- Sanski Most you still have --
13 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, we have three or four crime-based
14 witnesses left.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
16 MS. KORNER: There is one witness -- and I can't remember his
17 number -- who has got cancer and we're having inquiries made this week.
18 Oh, I see that -- I wonder if I could borrow -- thank you.
19 Your Honour, it's the witness number 7.59. It may be, Your
20 Honour, that we'll have to try and do him through videolink. We're making
21 inquiries this week to see whether he's fit to travel. But we should
22 complete witnesses on the list numbers 27, 28, 29, 30, and 31 -- well, 32,
23 Your Honour, I can just remind Your Honours has to testify on Friday, the
24 21st of July. So that's the week after we come back. I'm tempted to ask
25 Your Honours to cancel the week's holiday, but I know that would cause a
1 lot of problems.
2 JUDGE AGIUS: 21st of July we will be changing -- I remember --
3 that's when we are changing the courtroom -- or no. 21st of July anyway.
4 Yes. But we still have 14 witnesses here. Okay. Two of them are
5 Rule 92?
6 MS. KORNER: Sorry. 21st of June. Did I say July.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.
8 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. June. No, Your Honour, we don't have 14
9 witnesses left. The ones at the bottom are Rule 92.
10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, the last two.
11 MS. KORNER: The last one certainly we -- yeah, we may -- I think
12 we do. We have 12. Your Honour is right.
13 JUDGE AGIUS: You have 12, plus two Rule 92.
14 MS. KORNER: And we've got BT21.
15 JUDGE AGIUS: And you have BT21.
16 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, we're going to try -- we're trying
17 to get them through quickly. As I say -- [Microphone not activated] May I
18 make this absolutely clear. Your Honours perfectly -- Your Honours are
19 perfectly entitled to stop examination-in-chief --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Ms. Korner, please.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: Microphone.
22 MS. KORNER: Your Honours are perfectly entitled to stop
23 examination-in-chief if Your Honours have heard sufficient on a particular
24 issue or if Your Honours feel that it's unnecessary to go any further. We
25 can't second-guess what's in Your Honours' mind. So for example, Your
1 Honours may feel you've heard enough about Manjaca but we don't know
2 that. There's been no challenge to it but there's been general challenge
3 to the credibility of the witnesses. So a number of these witnesses have
4 been in Manjaca and are going to be saying the same things.
5 JUDGE AGIUS: It's again -- saying there has been no challenge is
6 not precise, because for example today the witness was questioned on the
7 correctness or otherwise or the -- of statements made by Merhamet,
8 statements made by Paddy Ashdown. So even the conditions are being
9 contested. This is -- I don't think that there is anything in this case
10 so far except for maybe a killing or two that has not been contested as a
12 MS. KORNER: Well, then --
13 JUDGE AGIUS: This is problem. I mean --
14 MS. KORNER: But it's -- but Your Honours are -- in the end
15 result, Your Honours can say -- because we can go on calling witnesses
16 forever, and will if that's what's required to convince Your Honours that
17 Manjaca was not a particularly pleasant place, to put it at its lowest.
18 It's not just these witnesses, Your Honour. It's witnesses from Kljuc
19 that we're going to hear, who went to the same place.
20 It seems to me that yes, of course there is directly respond -- we
21 hold -- no question about it, we allege that General Talic is directly
22 responsible for not controlling the conditions in that camp. When I say
23 there's been no challenge, there's been no challenge to individual
24 beatings or killings or the like, because obviously there can't be. You
25 know, it's not suggested that either of these two defendants, accused,
1 directly participated in that. But Your Honour, we have to -- somebody
2 has to somehow get a hold of, if you like, this case. We're trying, but
3 one of the real problems is -- and Mr. Ackerman will have his say -- is
4 that appreciating it's a document-heavy case, we have to go through the
5 aspects of the case that are obviously part and parcel of the crime base.
6 Cross-examination is exceedingly lengthy and sometimes, Your
7 Honour, in our submission, doesn't go to the root of the matter.
8 JUDGE AGIUS: I'm not comment -- going to comment on that.
9 MS. KORNER: But Your Honour, I'm saying --
10 JUDGE AGIUS: In the case of this witness, for example, this last
11 one, even the examination-in-chief was supposed to last a day, if I
12 remember correctly, when you first started or indicated to us -- when I
13 asked you how long did you expect -- well, it lasted double.
14 MS. KORNER: No. Your Honour, I said it would take just over a
15 day, and it did.
16 JUDGE AGIUS: It lasted much more than a day.
17 MS. KORNER: No. It finished at the first break, or just after,
18 in fact. Mr. Ackerman --
19 JUDGE AGIUS: What's today?
20 MS. KORNER: Today is Wednesday. It started on Monday.
21 JUDGE AGIUS: No. We continued yesterday.
22 MS. KORNER: I'm sorry. You mean the whole -- Your Honour, I can
23 only estimate examination-in-chief.
24 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. And so can we. I mean, we don't know. And
25 this is the problem. Because the way the witness answers will very much
1 condition then the whole examination-in-chief or the cross-examination.
2 This witness, when I -- when I drew his attention, answer yes or no, we
3 went much speedier and Madam Fauveau could finish her cross-examination in
4 half of what she expected or she had told us it would last.
5 MS. KORNER: It's the form of the -- it's the form of the question
6 as well, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah, I know. I know, Ms. Korner. But I think what
8 we need to do is that Prosecution should pick the best witnesses, say, on
9 Manjaca. If you think that you have six, seven, eight key witnesses,
10 describe from -- from Sanski Most who are in a position to provide the
11 Trial Chamber with whatever you want to prove with regard to the
12 conditions in Manjaca, you can stop there. But that's --
13 MS. KORNER: Well, then, Your Honour, I could stop now, because
14 I've had two witnesses give evidence of what happened in Manjaca. The
15 witness who's coming either tomorrow or Friday -- well, Your Honours, I
16 would invite Your Honours to have a look at what's in the -- I say diary.
17 It's more of a --
18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. It has arrived now and we'll have to.
19 Yes, Mr. Ackerman. Please don't be long so that we --
20 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, Ms. Korner said a lot of things, and I should
21 have a right to respond to them.
22 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I know. But if you want, you can have your
23 time tomorrow so that we don't keep the staff here more than we promised
24 they would stay.
25 MR. ACKERMAN: Well, then let's let them go, and I'll --
1 JUDGE AGIUS: You will --
2 MR. ACKERMAN: I'll depend on speaking with you first thing in the
4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. We'll deal with this first thing in the
5 morning. I think that's better.
6 Thank you. My apologies to the technical staff and to the
8 Yes. I wanted to announce that there is a further change again,
9 because the changes in Milosevic and changes in Simic and we will have to
10 move back to Courtroom I tomorrow. Thank you.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
12 at 6.36 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
13 the 6th day of June, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.