Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 6736

1 Thursday, 6 June 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.27 p.m.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Madam Registrar, could

6 you call the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This is the case number,

8 IT-99-36-T, the Prosecutor versus Radoslav Brdjanin and Momir Talic.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Mr. Brdjanin, good afternoon to you. Can you hear

10 me in a language that you can understand?

11 THE ACCUSED BRDJANIN: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your

12 Honour. I can hear you and I understand you.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

14 General Talic, good afternoon to you. Can you hear me in a

15 language that you can understand?

16 THE ACCUSED TALIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

17 I can hear you and I understand you.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

19 Appearances for the Prosecution.

20 MS. RICHTEROVA: Good afternoon, Anna Richterova and Joanna Korner

21 for the Prosecution, assisted by Denise Gustin, the case manager.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, madam, and good afternoon to you.

23 Appearances for Radoslav Brdjanin.

24 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour. I'm

25 Milan Trbojevic. And I'm with Mr. Ackerman and with our assistant Marela

Page 6737

1 Jevtovic.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you. Don't tell me good morning, because the

3 day will sound much longer and longer than it already is. I thank you and

4 good afternoon to you.

5 Appearances for General Talic.

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. I

7 am Natasha Ivanovic-Fauveau, and I represent General Talic.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Fauveau. And good afternoon to

9 you.

10 Yes, Ms. Korner, before you start --

11 MS. KORNER: It's all right. I have to confess something this

12 afternoon, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

14 MS. KORNER: I'm not going to --

15 JUDGE AGIUS: I am pretty sure I know what you are going to

16 confess.

17 MS. KORNER: Well, if you do, then it's very clever of Your

18 Honours because it's to do with some extra material that we found.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: No. That has got nothing with what I thought you

20 would have found out along what I found out. There's -- soon after the

21 sitting yesterday, you told us that in July we are sitting for ten days

22 only.

23 MS. KORNER: Something like ten or 12, yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: We are actually sitting for 16 days. We have 16 --

25 MS. KORNER: Yes. Well, that's --

Page 6738

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I am in the habit -- you haven't -- we haven't

2 really come to know each other. I am in the habit of checking everything

3 more or less, most of the time. And when I don't, I get challenged.

4 Actually, I checked yesterday. I can assure you we are sitting for -- we

5 have 16 days in July that we will be sitting.

6 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I'm afraid that unlike Your Honour I'm a

7 bit more haphazard about numbers. I don't want to go back over yesterday.

8 But one of the things I intended to say was that I appreciated afterwards

9 -- my manner left a great deal to be desired yesterday afternoon. It's

10 simply the end of a very long day.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: I know. But don't worry about it, Ms. Korner. I

12 mean, we all end up pretty tired at the end of the day. Especially

13 yesterday I had a whole morning of meetings, and meetings, and meetings,

14 which unfortunately did not even allow me time for lunch. So you can

15 imagine at 6.30 in the evening how --

16 MS. KORNER: I thought it was only the Office of the Prosecutor

17 that suffered from the meetings syndrome.

18 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. But it's tiring for everyone. But I

19 do appreciate -- I mean, don't take -- take it -- I mean don't --

20 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, what I was tempted to do -- it's still

21 regrettably not a great deal out of a month of 31 days, even reducing

22 weekends. I mean, my concern is obviously that we try and get through the

23 evidence. But -- and that was what I was trying to express, as I say,

24 perhaps with a little too much force yesterday afternoon.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: That's okay, Ms. Korner.

Page 6739

1 MS. KORNER: At 6.00.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: It's all right.

3 MS. KORNER: But Your Honour, I'm afraid -- that wasn't what I was

4 going to say.

5 The witness that we discussed yesterday, 7.165.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.

7 MS. KORNER: Referred in the statement which Your Honours have.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

9 MS. KORNER: To notes which he kept whilst he was in Manjaca which

10 was separate from what he calls the diary they gave Your Honours

11 yesterday.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

13 MS. KORNER: It's at page 1.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Mm-hm.

15 MS. KORNER: For some reason or other, and I don't know why, they

16 weren't copied when he was seen by the investigator in -- and the

17 investigator who saw him isn't present -- isn't here -- in, whenever it

18 was, February and June of last year. But he had them with him this

19 morning when I spoke to him. So what we've done is we've copied those

20 notes and disclosed them to the Defence today. We've asked for an

21 emergency translation to be done by an in-house interpreter, as opposed to

22 sending it to CLSS, and we hope that it will be ready by tomorrow. And

23 that's all we can do. But --

24 JUDGE AGIUS: What are we talking about volume-wise?

25 MS. KORNER: Can I hand Your Honours a copy at -- maybe if I hand

Page 6740

1 Your Honours a copy of the extra documents that we got this morning.

2 The first is -- yes, he's made an extra statement, firstly about

3 the notebook and about one other matter.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Have you had copies already disclosed to you?

5 Okay. Thank you.

6 MS. KORNER: Then, Your Honour, can I ask that Your Honours be

7 handed that, which is --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: This is only one copy. No?

9 MS. KORNER: One copy of what?

10 JUDGE AGIUS: This is --

11 MS. KORNER: Oh; I see. Your Honours have got it. Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I have the statement taken on the 6th of June, and

13 then documents -- and I only have one copy of each.

14 MS. KORNER: Yes.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: And we are three here.

16 MS. KORNER: Yes. Your Honour, we'll hand them up. Literally

17 these have been produced literally just before Your Honours came into

18 court.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: Some of which I have two, actually. Some documents

20 I have two copies.

21 MS. KORNER: No. What Your Honour -- can I -- can I go through

22 this.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please. Please do, Ms. Korner.

24 MS. KORNER: When Your Honours -- when everybody has else got the

25 copies, I'll go through what we handed over.

Page 6741

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

2 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the first is the extra very short

3 statement. Then the next document, Your Honours should have, which is

4 stapled together, which is headed with -- in -- it's a German document,

5 Thyssen [phoen]. That is the -- the notebook which was kept in Manjaca.

6 It contains a number of different entries which is explained in the

7 statement.

8 Your Honour, in addition to that, we have photocopied -- I'm

9 sorry. The next document, I should add -- if Your Honours see something

10 like that, that's -- that was with the notebook, but it's a separate

11 document. And again, it's explained in the statement.

12 Your Honour, then we've also photocopied the front of the exercise

13 book in which the diary, so-called, was written because of what was

14 written on the -- on the front of it, which as I recall it's contained in

15 the statement as to what it actually says, which I don't have at the

16 moment but it matters not. Well, in fact we don't. But I think it says

17 something like -- what does it say, Anna? Okay. I think it's something

18 like "lest we forget," or something like that. But he did translate it.

19 Your Honour, then we've also copied the Red Cross registration

20 card which he kept from Manjaca. And finally, Your Honour, what we did

21 was attached to his statement were a number of plans he prepared for the

22 investigator when making his statement. We hadn't had them translated,

23 and so we've attached a translation done by an interpreter and the

24 original which he did and provided and which he initialed.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Translated into B/C/S you

Page 6742

1 mean.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Because they are in English.

4 MS. KORNER: Those are your translations. He wrote them

5 originally and we translated them.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I see. Okay.

7 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, the situation is this: It's highly

8 unlikely, as I think I said to Your Honour yesterday, that cross --

9 examination-in-chief and cross-examination would finish tomorrow. So I've

10 given them to the Defence, explaining that the translation should be with

11 them tomorrow. And as I understand it, nobody is complaining too loudly

12 at the moment, anyhow.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Mr. Ackerman, Madam Fauveau, do you have any

14 comments on this, apart from the fact that you've still got to make your

15 remarks on what Ms. Korner said yesterday, obviously.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: I really don't have any comment with regard to

17 these documents. I had noted that he had told the Prosecutor he had kept

18 these -- these notes while in Manjaca. I would have asked him for them.

19 So I've probably got them earlier than I otherwise would have.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

21 Madam Fauveau?

22 Well, one moment. May I ask the technicians if there is anything

23 wrong? At least I don't have anything on my monitor so far. Yeah. You

24 have, but I don't. And Judge Janu hasn't got either.

25 You are okay now? I'm still not okay. Yeah, but it's only the

Page 6743

1 transcript. I switch on from one -- one to the other -- yeah, it's okay.

2 It's come now. Okay.

3 Yes, Madam Fauveau.

4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] As far as I can carry on

5 with my -- if I can carry on with my cross-examination after the break, I

6 don't have any need to comment. I need an explanation though. We will

7 have the translation of the notes tomorrow, if I've understood things

8 correctly. But what I am more interested in is the translation of the

9 statement of the witness dated 5 of June into B/C/S, because I would like

10 my client to have this statement in B/C/S before we start -- before I

11 start the cross-examination after the break.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I suppose that wouldn't be much

13 difficulty, because it's a short one.

14 MS. KORNER: It's a short statement, Your Honour. I'll make

15 inquiries as to whether that could be done as well by tomorrow.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I thank you, Ms. Korner.

17 Yes.

18 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] There is one more request,

19 and I would like to put it to you now. If the translation is done in the

20 course of the following week, could I ask the Prosecutor to submit it

21 directly through the intermediary of the registrar to my client because

22 neither myself nor lead counsel will be in The Hague next week.

23 MS. KORNER: We can do that. But I hope that -- we can probably

24 get it done tomorrow, even if it's not an authorised translation, it will

25 be a translation.

Page 6744

1 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, Ms. Korner.

2 Now, Mr. Ackerman, yesterday I cut you short because we were six

3 minutes over the time limit allowed to us. You've got as much time as you

4 like to comment on --

5 MR. ACKERMAN: I will be -- I'll be fairly brief, Your Honour.

6 Your Honour already kind of covered one of the topics, and that

7 was Ms. Korner's assertion that we had ten days or so to sit in July.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. That's I think superseded now.

9 MR. ACKERMAN: Actually, I looked at the last four months, and I

10 may be off a day or two but 16 days in July is -- is a little above

11 average for what we've been able to do so far, so I don't think it's -- I

12 think that's about all we can hope for in any month is 16 or 17 days.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Well, I can tell you if you don't mind me

14 interrupting you that basically I have studied this very carefully, a

15 comparative study. I mean, each court -- each Trial Chamber in each case

16 basically sits for 15 -- 15 or 16 times in a month. That's not an

17 average; it's standard. So that's what we are talking about. In July,

18 that's what we have. Yeah.

19 MR. ACKERMAN: The other things I just would like to respond

20 somewhat briefly to some things that Ms. Korner said yesterday afternoon.

21 And I do that recognising her statement this afternoon regarding that.

22 The two things that I would like to focus on - and I will do it

23 briefly, Your Honours - is first of all her suggestion that we're not

24 contesting some things. It's my understanding -- and if -- if I'm wrong,

25 I should be told I'm wrong. It's my understanding that by entering a plea

Page 6745

1 of not guilty a defendant puts in contest every allegation of the

2 indictment filed against him by the Prosecutor and puts the Prosecutor to

3 the burden of proving each and every allegation in that indictment beyond

4 a reasonable doubt. One does not have to keep saying day after day, "We

5 contest this indictment. We contest this indictment. We contest this

6 indictment." The plea of not guilty does that. What has happened since

7 that plea of not guilty is that in some very limited instances we have

8 told Ms. Korner some things that we do not contest. And I want to

9 emphasise that what we've told her are things we do not contest. And

10 we've had a discussion about this Your Honour will remember, when I said

11 it will make it easier for us to deal with some of these matters if we

12 could take a position of not contesting them rather than a position of

13 admitting them. And for instance, with some of the killings, it would be

14 impossible for us to admit them because we couldn't possibly now, but we

15 can certainly say we don't contest them, which is what we've done. So the

16 proposition that we're not contesting things just isn't so. We're

17 contesting this indictment. We're putting the Prosecutor to her burden of

18 proving the guilt of my client, at least, beyond a reasonable doubt.

19 The other thing that I would take extraordinarily strong issue

20 with is this: I don't know of a court anywhere in the world - there might

21 be one, but if there is I don't know about it - where the Prosecutor can

22 say to the judges, "I will put on witnesses until you tell me I have

23 proved my case and then I'll go on to the next issue." That's not the way

24 it works. It is the job of the Prosecutor to present whatever evidence it

25 is she believes is sufficient to prove her case beyond a reasonable doubt,

Page 6746

1 and she is not entitled to enlist the assistance of the Court in telling

2 her when she has done that. She can only find out whether she's done that

3 or not at the end of the case when the Court enters its judgement. Now,

4 it's entirely appropriate, however, and it's done rather frequently in

5 this Tribunal for the Court to say, "With regard to this issue, we believe

6 four witnesses will be sufficient. Pick your best four."

7 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] I think that's what

8 Ms. Korner meant.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour, please.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: That's how I read Ms. Korner, how I understood her;

11 not as you put it in the beginning. I mean, she was inviting the Tribunal

12 to -- the Chamber to tell -- to tell her if you think we should curtail

13 the evidence on, for example -- I don't know. I mean, it's -- the hygiene

14 conditions or the conditions generally in Manjaca. Stop us -- say no more

15 witnesses, we don't want any more witnesses on that.

16 MR. ACKERMAN: That's exactly my point. That is improper. It's

17 entirely proper for you before Manjaca or before Sanski Most or before any

18 issue that the Prosecutor is going to go into to say, "We think you should

19 only put on four witnesses about this, so pick your best four."

20 JUDGE AGIUS: What did I tell her yesterday? I told her we can

21 only tell you -- we can -- limit yourself to the five best witnesses that

22 you think you have. And that's her choice, not ours definitely. She

23 knows exactly who the five or six or seven would be. But let's -- let's

24 talk the only language that we four understand here. Okay? In other

25 words -- we three understand. The Defence, the Prosecution, and us, the

Page 6747

1 Chamber.

2 MR. ACKERMAN: Yeah.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: You know as much as I do and we do that with each

4 and every new witness that is brought forward by the Prosecution, evidence

5 may result as a consequence which strengthens the case of the Prosecution

6 or it may well be the case that upon cross-examination, you will score one

7 or two or three or four if not more hits, which you wouldn't have scored

8 if that witness hasn't been brought over. And this is something that

9 anyone trained to be a prosecutor knows and anyone who has been trained to

10 be a Defence counsel knows. The same applies to you.

11 MR. ACKERMAN: Yes.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: I will not comment on the cross-examinations that

13 have been taking place here, because I -- as a Judge and as an ex-Defence

14 counsel, I have my own opinion on how I would have conducted

15 cross-examination with each and every particular witness that we've had

16 here. But I am not going to teach you anything, either Madam Fauveau or

17 yourself or the rest of the teams, of the risks involved in putting

18 questions only to have a negative answer which will weaken your case and

19 strengthen the Prosecution's case. And I don't need to elaborate on these

20 things because these are techniques of advocacy and -- on either side that

21 I'm pretty well sure they're -- that you're masters of.

22 The thing is this: Don't expect this Trial Chamber as long as it

23 is presided by me to interfere much on how many witnesses you want to

24 bring forward to strengthen, in support of your case, be it the Defence or

25 be it the Prosecution. I'm not going at any one time to tell you, "I

Page 6748

1 think we've had enough witnesses on -- on the conditions in Manjaca or on

2 the conditions in Omarska and other camps," -- if there have been other

3 cases, please do remember that the Trial Chamber is authorised to apply

4 one of the Rules and take judicial notice of what has been decided in

5 other cases. And I'm not excluding that at one point in time we might

6 resort to that, very limitedly but we might resort to that. But in the

7 case of Manjaca, this is as far as I know the first case that has been

8 dealing with -- with Manjaca. So the way I see it as a presiding trial

9 Judge that the Prosecution has got a tremendous burden, because what

10 results in this case may also be important in other cases that will come

11 up later on. I'm not going to tell the Prosecution, "I'm fed up. I don't

12 want to hear any more. I'm fed up that the -- the conditions of hygiene,

13 food, whatever were absolutely horrific in Manjaca." Do you think I'm

14 going to do that? But the Prosecution knows that the more witnesses it

15 brings over here, the more it's exposing these witnesses to

16 cross-examination. And the more of them come here -- I mean, if they are

17 going to prove what is already abundantly clear, that's up to the

18 Prosecution to decide at -- but I think in all fairness to Ms. Korner that

19 as we have been going along, there have been decisions taken to cut it

20 short and cut it short not because there has been any particular

21 intervention from this Trial Chamber. You know that there hasn't. But I

22 think I am -- we -- the three of us are particularly lucky in this -- in

23 this trial to have a very high class level of advocacy. And more or less

24 you know exactly where you are. I mean, you -- I am pretty much sure that

25 the -- the two of you or the three of you know exactly what you're doing.

Page 6749

1 So I didn't take Ms. Korner as inviting the Court yesterday to

2 tell her, "Yes, we are pretty much satisfied now that you have proven to

3 us that the conditions in Manjaca were absolutely hopeless." Let me

4 mention one small point yesterday. The fact that this witness that we had

5 yesterday told us that he was issuing death certificates which basically

6 were a misrepresentation of the truth, of which he was pretty much aware

7 did Madam Fauveau grasp that and try to turn it into her advantage? Of

8 course she did. Would she have been able to do that had yesterday's

9 witness not come forward to give evidence? She wouldn't have been able to

10 do that. So this is our -- I mean, he was an essential witness obviously.

11 I mean, he was one of the key witnesses in this municipality and as far as

12 Manjaca is concerned. But these are -- these are the realities of any

13 trial that I have lived and you have lived and that you will continue to

14 live in this trial, and I don't need to explain much more.

15 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, I'm in complete agreement with

16 everything you just said, and I appreciate what you just said. It was

17 what I was actually trying to point out myself. And with that, I have

18 nothing further to say. So thank you very much.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you. And please don't take Ms. Korner -- I

20 did not misunderstand Ms. Korner yesterday. She was quite fair,

21 actually. She -- what I understood she was trying to do is to try and --

22 working on the assumption that we had only ten days in July, she was

23 trying to see if we could find a way out in which to lessen the amount of

24 witnesses. But that's up to you. I'm not going -- I will interfere only

25 when there is either a relevance, complete irrelevance or when there is a

Page 6750

1 super abundance or something that has not been contested. Yes, there

2 may also be a time when I will intervene -- and this may be sooner than

3 you think -- when I will stop either Ms. Korner -- be it Ms. Korner or

4 yourself in certain delicate moments and I will take the witness in my

5 hands. I have the intention of doing that precisely with one of the

6 witnesses that's coming up pretty soon, if I see that the situation

7 becomes dramatic or too delicate for any one of you to continue handle.

8 That I have done in the past and I will do if necessary. But maybe I am

9 anticipating things that might not happen, but I am preparing you for

10 that.

11 Madam Fauveau.

12 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, I agree with

13 everything that Mr. Ackerman said and I think that that also applies to

14 General Talic.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

16 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Nevertheless, there are

17 certain things I would like to add, one of which concerns the evidence for

18 the Defence and the other concerns my client and the indictment.

19 As far as evidence is concerned, this Trial Chamber issued a

20 directive relative to the admission of evidence. In this directive, the

21 Trial Chamber decided that in this case, a rule which in English is called

22 the Best Evidence Rule would be applied. I said in English because I

23 don't think that in legal French language -- I don't think this rule

24 exists in legal French language.

25 Last week we had a witness who was in Manjaca, 7.29. This witness

Page 6751

1 arrived in Manjaca at the end of August 1992, and we listened to the

2 evidence that he presented for about two hours relating to the conditions

3 in Manjaca between June and August 1992. It seems that this witness is

4 not the one who could present the best evidence with regard to Manjaca.

5 As far as the other issue is concerned - and this concerns my

6 client - yesterday Mrs. Korner said -- it's on page 98 of the LiveNote --

7 [In English] "We allege that General Talic is directly responsible for not

8 controlling the conditions in that camp." [Interpretation] It seems on

9 the basis of this statement that the Prosecutor, Ms. Korner, considers

10 General Talic responsible for not controlling what allegedly took place in

11 the Manjaca camp. Not controlling doesn't enter the definition in the

12 Statute 7(1) -- in article 7(1) of the Statute. Article 7(1) of the

13 Statute provides for the planning, instigation to commit, ordering and the

14 committing of crimes. The fact that someone didn't control this could

15 enter into Article 7(3), and it relates to superior responsibility. But

16 the indictment -- according to the indictment, General Talic is presumed

17 responsible for what took place in Manjaca in a -- pursuant to Article

18 7(1) and pursuant to Article 7(3) of the Statute. If the Prosecutor

19 considers that General Talic is responsible for what allegedly took place

20 in the Manjaca camp, only on the basis of Article 7(3), then it's

21 necessary for her to say so clearly and to modify the indictment with

22 regard to the Manjaca camp. And this will certainly have an influence on

23 the defence of General Talic the direction it takes, and will certainly

24 contribute to the acceleration of these proceedings.

25 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, I don't think it needs a reply, because

Page 6752

1 we have the indictment. But can I just say very quickly two words about

2 what Mr. Ackerman has to say.

3 The first is, a plea of not guilty means the indictment is

4 contested. Of course it means that the responsibility of the accused for

5 any of the events is under contest. It does not, we would submit, mean

6 that -- that means that every single fact that is talked about in the

7 indictment necessarily is contested.

8 The second matter is this: And that goes back to -- and we still

9 don't appear to have had a ruling from the Appeals Chamber. It goes back

10 to the concept of putting one's case.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly. Are you aware of the decision of the

12 Appeals Chamber?

13 MS. KORNER: There isn't one.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

15 MS. KORNER: There is?

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. The Appeals Chamber decided today -- I can --

17 I have it in French, because that's the only version that was made

18 available. And this is the decision on your appeal on 90(H)(ii).

19 MS. KORNER: Witness perhaps Your Honour would be kind enough to

20 summarise it for counsel.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: The appeal has been rejected and our judgement has

22 been confirmed. So the position is as it had been maintained by the

23 Prosecution and by the Trial Chamber in its decision of -- so that is

24 pretty much clear now -- even though when these last cross-examinations

25 that we've had, more or less they have accepted to adopt what is required

Page 6753

1 by --

2 MS. KORNER: Absolutely. I mean, I've -- I've no complaint about

3 that. And it's quite clear that if case has been put. With one

4 exception -- and I'm only raising it because of what Mr. Ackerman says and

5 because of what I said about Manjaca. Of course people's credibility in

6 terms of whether they can say the gate was to the left or the hospital or

7 death certificates has been tested. What has never been put in terms,

8 and I understood it was because neither defendant was saying that they

9 were in -- accused, I'm sorry, were saying they were in a position to know

10 because neither had ever been to the camp what the conditions were like.

11 But if the case for the Defence either through instructions or through

12 other evidence that they're going to call or have is that when these

13 witnesses say that there were constant beatings, that people died as a

14 result of the beatings, that is not what happened. These witnesses have

15 invented that or, as one can put it, over-egged the pudding, made it out

16 to be much worse than it actually was -- then that is something that ought

17 to be put to the witnesses in turn. Because Your Honours are entitled to

18 see what their response is to a suggestion that they are either lying or

19 about what they say happened.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, you are right, Ms. Korner. Yes.

21 MS. KORNER: And that's my -- that's my only issue.

22 Now, the reason I said no issue and I accept that I was rather

23 overstating it, because clearly issues have been raised, is that no

24 witness has so far -- it's been put to any witness that we've called about

25 Manjaca that the beatings that talked about didn't take place. And that

Page 6754

1 was my concern, and that is why I raised the question of whether it was

2 necessary to call further evidence on that issue -- that part of the case

3 which didn't -- hadn't been directly challenged. So that's the only

4 reason I raised that.

5 And Your Honour is quite right -- obviously Your Honours can't say

6 we believe every word. You haven't heard all the evidence. I was merely

7 trying -- seeking an indication --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: No. I didn't understand that you were --

9 MS. KORNER: All right. Your Honour, that's the only thing I say

10 about it.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: But the thing is, Ms. Korner, again -- and I appeal

12 to your well-known experience in this field -- that at a certain time you

13 ought to be in a position to make an assessment of the arsenal that the

14 Defence may have at its disposal. Now, let's -- let's talk of beatings.

15 If you suspect that the Defence might later on be in a position or may

16 later on be in a position to practically neutralise your case, because you

17 have based your case only on the evidence of two or three witnesses -- you

18 have to make the assessment at any given moment -- you have to make an

19 assessment. And it could vary. It could -- I mean, because each witness

20 that has been in Manjaca, I assume, can testify on beatings, can testify

21 on food, can testify on the other general conditions. I mean, hygiene,

22 torture, killings, presence of any of the accused. I don't know. But you

23 are the one to make that assessment. So -- and it could well be that -- I

24 can -- I can easily tell you, "Restrict the number of witnesses dealing

25 with the conditions in Manjaca to not more than six." I can easily do

Page 6755

1 that. But any particular witness can testify on other things related to

2 Manjaca. At that point in time, what am I going to tell you? Don't bring

3 that witness? Or deprive you from being in a position -- because then if

4 I say five witnesses only or six witnesses only, I'm putting you in a

5 position where you have to make some very difficult decisions. And unless

6 it's something on which I would have no qualms with my conscience, if I

7 were to restrict the number of witnesses -- and what I'm saying to you

8 applies equally to the Defence. I will not do it. Irrespective of what

9 happens in other Chambers, I'm presiding over this Chamber, and this

10 Chamber will go on as the three of us will agree-- at any given moment

11 where there is a superabundance of something, we will let you know.

12 MS. KORNER: Your Honour, may I say this straight away: No

13 witness has been called purely to talk about Manjaca and nothing else.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: I know that. We know that. This is the truth.

15 MS. KORNER: Yes. But Your Honour -- Your Honour said Your Honour

16 will have to make a decision as to work out whether the Defence are going

17 to neutralise it. Well, Your Honour, the only way one can do that is by

18 the cross-examination. And that's what I mean going back to there's been

19 no cross-examination on --

20 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But then you are in a position to make an

21 assessment. As we go on --

22 MS. KORNER: No. No.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: -- we are evaluating the nature of each

24 cross-examination that we have had and we come to our open conclusions, I

25 mean temporary conclusions because the basic conclusions will arrive at

Page 6756

1 the end of this trial.

2 MS. KORNER: Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: But more or less if we are in a position to know,

4 considering the cross-examinations that we have had what to expect from

5 the Defence, I think you are in the same -- the same position.

6 MS. KORNER: Only, Your Honour, if the Defence are following the

7 rules that Your Honour laid down and not rules which are current in their

8 own jurisdictions, and that is putting to the witness all matters that are

9 not agreed to. And if that's what's been followed, then --

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. But the Defence have got the decision of

11 the Appeals Chamber.

12 MS. KORNER: Well, exactly.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: So they will have to live with that decision whether

14 they like it or not. I mean, I know Mr. Ackerman is accustomed to the

15 situation prevailing in the US which does not recognise anything like we

16 have in 90 -- it is -- it exists somewhere in the States. But over all it

17 does not exist. But this is the reality and this is what we have to

18 live.

19 MS. KORNER: Yes. Well, Your Honour, I think -- I'm grateful for

20 Your Honour's assistance. And I've raised the point. And Mr. Ackerman

21 has responded.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And I also do appreciate, Ms. Korner, that you are

23 always in a different position than the Defence is, because you have the

24 duty to disclose overall, even material which will eventually work

25 against your case.

Page 6757

1 MS. KORNER: Well, Your Honour, that's -- may I say so very right

2 and proper, because we're not here to seek a conviction against all odds.

3 We're here to present --

4 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, exactly.

5 MS. KORNER: -- all evidence to the Court.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: The Defence is not in the same position. So I do

7 appreciate that while the Defence may have -- the Defence usually has much

8 more information on the case of the Prosecution beforehand, while the same

9 cannot be said with regard to the Prosecution. I do appreciate that. But

10 it's not something that the Tribunal or the Chamber is called upon to act.

11 MS. KORNER: No.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Because that's the law and that's how it should be.

13 MS. KORNER: Yes. Well, Your Honour clearly, as Your Honours

14 rightly said, it's for us to make the hard decisions as to how much

15 evidence to put on. And as the case proceeds, that's what we're going to

16 do.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

18 Can we proceed? Usher, please -- the witness has no protective

19 measures. No.

20 In the meantime, while we await this witness, Ms. Korner I have

21 had almost a panic station forthcoming from one section of my legal staff

22 that is tasked with giving us the complete scenario with regard to the

23 Banja Luka municipality, that they can't finish that satisfactorily unless

24 they have the exhibit numbers for the 92 -- Rule 92 statements.

25 MS. KORNER: Well, they can't finish it anyhow.

Page 6758

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So --

2 MS. KORNER: Because we haven't called all the witnesses

3 yesterday.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: 92 bis statements.

5 MS. KORNER: There's only --

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Of Banja Luka.

7 MS. KORNER: Yes. There was only one, I think, 92 bis statement

8 in the end, and the next exhibit number up on the Banja Luka section --

9 because we jumped -- is Prosecutor's Exhibit 548.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: 548.

11 Madam -- will you take note of that, Inneke, please, and pass it

12 on.

13 Okay. We'll check on that.

14 There is one very minor thing that I wanted to raise before we

15 address the witness.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE AGIUS: May I take you back in time to about two months ago

18 and even more when there was a motion from the Prosecution to take

19 depositions for use at trial, referring to Stakic.

20 MS. KORNER: Oh, yes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: And one plus one, and then responses, et cetera. Do

22 I take it -- do you agree with me that that is now moot?

23 MS. KORNER: Yes.

24 JUDGE AGIUS: And --

25 MS. KORNER: It doesn't require any sort of ruling.

Page 6759

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Can the Chamber take it that it has been withdrawn?

2 MS. KORNER: Yes.

3 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So the Chamber will not deal with that motion

4 and the responses that were forthcoming from the Prosecution, because

5 it's -- the motion is being taken as having been withdrawn.

6 MS. KORNER: Well, I mean, I suppose technically I mean -- do we

7 have to withdraw it? I'd rather --

8 JUDGE AGIUS: I don't know. I leave the option open. If you

9 want --

10 MS. KORNER: We don't require a ruling.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: We can just -- you don't require a ruling.

12 MS. KORNER: Exactly.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay.

14 MS. KORNER: I'd just like to leave it in case the situation ever

15 arises again so it's on the record.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: But if it's still in existence the Defence also must

17 enter a declaration whether they require a ruling.

18 You don't require a ruling. So since there's -- okay.

19 Madam Fauveau also doesn't require a ruling. So there will be no ruling

20 on that motion.

21 Yes. Good afternoon to you.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: I am the Presiding Judge. And before I proceed any

24 further, I think I ought to apologise to you for keeping you waiting for

25 the past hour. The reason for this delay is not something capricious.

Page 6760

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5

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13 English transcripts.

14

15

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Page 6761

1 It's because we had some procedural, legal matters to discuss and decide

2 upon which were important. They do not relate to your evidence or your

3 presence here, so you don't need to worry about them, because you had

4 absolutely -- you have absolutely nothing to do with them. But I needed

5 to apologise to you first and foremost for having kept you here waiting

6 for one hour. I hope you understand.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. And I

8 appreciate that very much.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

10 Now, before you start giving evidence, the procedure here is that

11 you enter a solemn declaration that you will tell us the truth in the

12 course of your deposition.

13 The gentleman standing by your side will give you a piece of paper

14 on which there is a solemn declaration which I kindly invite you now to

15 read out aloud.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 WITNESS: GRGO STOJIC

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you, sir. You may sit down.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: And -- yes. And now before we start with your

23 questioning, may I just explain to you where you are and what's going to

24 happen.

25 As I told you, I am the Presiding Judge. I am flanked to my

Page 6762

1 right -- at my right by Judge Janu from the Czech Republic. By the way,

2 my name is Agius and I come from Malta. And on my left I have Judge Taya

3 from Japan. We will be the three Judges that will be deciding -- we will

4 be hearing the evidence in this trial and eventually coming to a decision.

5 The three persons right in front of me are the members of the

6 Registry.

7 And to your right -- you don't need to worry about the persons in

8 the back. They are my legal staff -- our legal staff.

9 And the three persons in the front are the team for the

10 Prosecution. And you are going to be examined by the lady in the middle,

11 Madam Richterova.

12 When the examination-in-chief of the Prosecution is terminated,

13 then you will be examined by two Defence teams. The first team is to your

14 left, front row, the first three persons. You will be examined --

15 cross-examined by one of them - I don't know who - but you will be

16 examined by one of them. And the first team represents -- is the Defence

17 for -- is in charge of the Defence of Radoslav Brdjanin, one of the

18 accused in this trial. The other accused is General Talic, and he will be

19 represented by Madam Fauveau, who is the lady at the extreme end of the

20 front row. She will be the one to cross-examine you on behalf of

21 General Talic.

22 Having said that, if you have any questions, any queries, you can

23 put them to this Chamber and we'll try to do our best to answer them. If

24 you don't, we can proceed with the series of questions that the

25 Prosecution will be making, putting to you.

Page 6763

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have no questions.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: I thank you.

3 Madam Richterova.

4 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Examined by Ms. Richterova:

6 Q. Please can you state your full name for the record and date of

7 birth.

8 A. My name is Grgo Stojic. I was born on the 30th of January, 1968.

9 Q. What is your nationality?

10 A. I'm a Croat.

11 Q. And you are of the Catholic faith; is this correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you were born in the village of Skrljevita in the Sanski Most

14 municipality; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Mr. Stojic, how many times did you give a statement in respect of

17 the events which occurred during the year 1992?

18 A. As far as I can recollect, I gave statements five times.

19 Q. Can you be more specific?

20 A. As far as my memory serves me, I think that I made five

21 statements.

22 Q. Can -- do you remember giving a statement in -- to the court in

23 Sanski Most in 1996?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you know who took the statement in that court?

Page 6764

1 A. I do. The municipal judge in Sanski Most, Mr. Adil Draganovic.

2 Q. Was this statement typed or recorded in some other way?

3 A. First it was recorded and then typed out.

4 Q. And when did you sign it?

5 A. The next day.

6 Q. Was it in the presence of the Judge Draganovic?

7 A. Yes, it was.

8 Q. Did you see Judge Draganovic to sign it at the same time?

9 A. I did not.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. You're welcome.

12 Q. Mr. Stojic, you were born in the village of Skrljevita. What was

13 the ethnic composition of this village?

14 A. The majority population were of Croat ethnicity, and there was a

15 smaller percentage of Serbs.

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can I ask the usher to show the witness the

17 Exhibit P757.2. It is the map of Sanski Most which has already been

18 exhibited.

19 Can you please place it on the ELMO.

20 Q. Can you assist the Judges and show on the map the village of

21 Skrljevita, please.

22 A. Here it is.

23 Q. Can you tell us whether there were other Croat villages in the

24 municipality of Sanski Most.

25 A. Yes, there were.

Page 6765

1 Q. Can you show us these villages and can you name them.

2 A. I can. The village of Sasina, the village of Poljak. It is the

3 suburbs of Sanski Most. A part of Gornji Kruhari.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, sir. Stop.

5 Madam Richterova, the document itself, top left, indicates the

6 villages which are predominantly Croat, Muslim, or Serb. So the proper

7 question to put is sir, look at the towns or villages shown in red. Would

8 you agree that these were predominantly Croat. And we'll leave it at

9 that. That would cover the entire question without the need of the

10 witness having to go through his memory to tell us whether -- which

11 village and -- if he disagrees with that, he will obviously tell us.

12 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Would you please answer the question which was posed by the

14 Judge Agius, whether it is correct that these villages marked in red are

15 predominantly occupied by Croats.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Mr. Stojic, you served your compulsory military

18 service from December 1990 till January 1992. Did you return -- from the

19 military service, did you return back to your village?

20 A. Yes, I did.

21 Q. After you returned to your village, were you able to observe any

22 differences in how Serbs treated Croats in comparison with Muslims?

23 A. I noticed that already since the multi-party elections in

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is, ever since 1990. And then after returning

25 from my military service, as I was passing -- going from Sarajevo to

Page 6766

1 Sanski Most, from Mrkonjic Grad towards Kljuc, we were stopped by a

2 patrol, a patrol of the military police. They entered the bus to check

3 things out, and then we set off Sanski Most. The war in Croatia had

4 already started at the time, that is, in 1991.

5 Q. Mr. Stojic, I would like you to focus on the year 1992. And

6 briefly if you could state in which way, if ever, the life was different

7 from the years before.

8 A. The referendum was already in the offing, and it was indeed held

9 on the 29th of February and the 1st of March, 1992. Only the Croats and

10 Muslims took part in the referendum. But let me go back to the year 1990

11 and the multi-party elections. In the voting station in Skrljevita, where

12 I lived, the Serbs from a part of Skrljevita did not vote at that polling

13 station and they tore down posters of the Croatian Democratic Union, HDZ,

14 so that after returning from the front in Croatia, the Serbs who went to

15 Croatia on a voluntary basis, they would pass through the village

16 shooting, throwing grenades. Also a plane would fly at very high speed

17 and through the sound barrier so that the people were already in a lot of

18 fear.

19 Q. Can we now go to the year 1992, and can you briefly state whether

20 there were any restrictions on movement in your area, as far as you are

21 aware.

22 A. Until the 19th of April, 1992 there were no restrictions on

23 movement. But when the first attack occurred against Sanski Most

24 municipality, which was carried out on the 26th and the 27th and 28th of

25 May 1992, freedom of movement was restricted.

Page 6767

1 Q. Can you tell us in which way.

2 A. Well, we weren't able to get through to Sanski Most because of the

3 radio, the Serbian radio in Sanski Most. They called for weapons to be

4 surrendered, weapons which we did not have.

5 Q. I will deal with this announcement in respect of surrender of

6 weapons. But I would like to go back to this freedom of movement. Did

7 you see any checkpoints?

8 A. Yes. When I was going to Sanski Most, I did.

9 Q. Who managed these checkpoints?

10 A. There were Serbs who were armed and wearing civilian clothing.

11 Q. Were they all in civilian clothing?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Those who weren't in civilian clothing, what did they wear?

14 A. They were wearing military camouflage uniforms.

15 Q. Did they belong to any military unit, to your awareness?

16 A. I know that part of them belonged to the reserve forces of the

17 army.

18 Q. When we are talking about these checkpoints, what was the purpose

19 of these checkpoints?

20 A. The purpose of the checkpoints was to control, to control -- to

21 check who was going to town.

22 Q. Before you said that you weren't able to freely move. What if you

23 wanted to go from one place to another? Did you need to have any

24 permission?

25 A. I didn't go to such places; a friend of mine did, Franjo Ilicevic.

Page 6768

1 He went to his relatives in the village of Kljevci. He had to obtain a

2 pass in order to go there, allowing him to move.

3 Q. Did he tell you from whom he obtained this permission?

4 A. He obtained it from the police station in Sanski Most.

5 Q. To your knowledge, was it normal procedure that if you wanted to

6 move to other places within the municipality, you had to have a

7 permission?

8 A. In a situation of war, yes, this is normal procedure.

9 Q. Now I will move to surrender of weapons. Did you hear any

10 announcement -- announcements in respect to surrender of weapons?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Where did you hear it?

13 A. Over the Serbian radio Sanski Most.

14 Q. And what was the announcement?

15 A. The announcement was -- well, first of all, they listed all the

16 Croat and Muslim villages in the area of the municipality of Sanski Most,

17 and they were ordered to surrender all their weapons which were in their

18 possession.

19 Q. Do you remember that specifically Muslims and Croats were

20 mentioned?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. What else was stated in this announcement?

23 A. It said that weapons should be collected at a certain point, at a

24 certain spot, that the vehicles should be marked with a white flag and

25 should go to the Crisis Staff in Sanski Most. That's where the

Page 6769

1 headquarters of the Serbian armed forces were located.

2 Q. Were there any weapons in your village?

3 A. There were some for hunting. There were a few pistols, and people

4 had permits for these.

5 Q. Did you hand them over?

6 A. Yes, we did.

7 Q. Do you know Ivica Tutic?

8 A. Yes, I do.

9 Q. Who is -- or who was Ivica Tutic?

10 A. He was someone from my village. He was a capable man. He was

11 capable for work.

12 Q. Was he involved in politics?

13 A. No, he wasn't.

14 Q. Was he the person who took the weapons who were surrendered in

15 your village?

16 A. Yes. We surrendered them to him because this is what he was

17 ordered to do.

18 Q. Do you know what happened to Ivica Tutic in 1992?

19 A. I do.

20 Q. What happened to him?

21 A. At the beginning -- in the beginning of July, Ivica was ordered to

22 report to the Sanski Most police station. The policemen went to his home.

23 He wasn't at home in the morning. He was ordered to report by 9.00 in the

24 morning to the Sanski Most police station, which is what he did. And

25 after that point in time, his trace got lost.

Page 6770

1 Q. Mr. Stojic, you told us that you heard announcement to surrender

2 weapons.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you hear any speeches on the radio made by Muslims during the

5 year 1992?

6 A. Yes, I did. I did hear speeches. The dentist Fajko Biscevic was

7 brought in and Dr. Enes Sabanovic. That's what the speaker said on the

8 radio. He said, "Now you will be addressed by the leaders." And they did

9 that.

10 Q. Do you remember what their speech -- what their speeches were

11 about?

12 A. I do remember. Using those words, they were literally asking the

13 Croats and Muslims to surrender their weapons, the weapons that they had

14 in their possession and said that in this way peace and security would be

15 guaranteed for them. Whoever wanted to leave would be enabled to do so.

16 Q. You mentioned that in this speech was said that if people want to

17 leave the municipality, they were allowed to do it. Did you hear this

18 similar speeches from other sources about the movement of people out of

19 the municipality?

20 A. I did hear things from other people -- from people.

21 Your Honours, I would like to return to the meeting which was held

22 in Kruhari in the course of the attack on Sanski Most. When Ilija Tutic

23 was called, Bono Tutic and Ivica Tutic, when these men were called. And

24 on the Serbian side, Delic Tomo was present and another military officer.

25 And on the following day, we were told in the village by Bono Tutic, we

Page 6771

1 were told about what had been agreed, about what Mr. Delic had told them,

2 what he said we had to do. He told us that we had to surrender 86 rifles,

3 which we had allegedly obtained from Croatia. Mesic and Tudjman had

4 allegedly sent them to us. Delic literally told Bono and the others that

5 he had done this because we were friends and that there would be no

6 further discussion that weapons had started talking. Then he said,

7 "Gather what weapons there are." And Ivica Tutic, whom I have mentioned,

8 took them away, as I have already said.

9 Q. Mr. Stojic, can I go back to my previous question about

10 announcements or speeches made in relation of moving people out of the

11 municipality. Have you heard any such speeches?

12 A. Yes, I did hear such speeches.

13 Q. Can you be more specific?

14 A. I can. There was announcement over the Serbian radio in Sanski

15 Most, and it said, "Everyone who wants to leave the Serbian municipality

16 of Sanski Most must come to the -- to an office to room 26 in the

17 municipality building and those who so wish will be allowed to leave."

18 And also those who wanted to leave were allegedly guaranteed -- those who

19 wanted to stay were allegedly guaranteed peace and security in the Serbian

20 municipality of Sanski Most. Those who wanted to do so had to submit a

21 request for a permanent permit of residence. Some people did this and

22 Bono Tutic was among them. He received this permit. And rumour has it

23 that whoever received such a permit if someone checked his papers when he

24 would show his papers that person checking the papers wouldn't be able to

25 do anything to him, wouldn't harm him in any way. And basically this was

Page 6772

1 a sort of identity card showing you weren't a Serb. And this is like what

2 the Nazis did to the Jews.

3 Q. Mr. Stojic, I will return again to the question about the movement

4 of people outside. You mentioned that who wanted to move had to apply for

5 a permission. Have you heard any speech or statement stating how many

6 people would be allowed to stay?

7 A. No, I didn't hear anything. But people said - Serbs, friends,

8 neighbours - that only 2 per cent would remain.

9 Q. When you say "only 2 per cent would remain," do you mean in the

10 municipality of Sanski Most?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 MS. RICHTEROVA: May I only show the witness --

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, okay.

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: -- one paper.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, please do. And then we'll break. Thank you.

16 MS. RICHTEROVA: And this exhibit, which was premarked P811.

17 On the bottom, there is a Prosecution exhibit number. P811.

18 Can we place it on the ELMO.

19 Q. You mentioned that whoever wanted to leave had to apply for the

20 permission. Can you have a look at the document next to you and tell us

21 whether this is the permission for leaving the municipality.

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. Was it issued -- to whom this permission was issued?

24 A. It was issued to myself, to my mother, and to my brother.

25 Q. And we can see the date 21st of September, 1992, but we know that

Page 6773

1 you stayed in that municipality much longer. Why didn't you leave after

2 you obtained this permission?

3 A. Well, we weren't able to, because there were no convoys at the

4 time and individual people were already getting ready in my village for a

5 convoy. They were getting ready to leave. But they didn't manage to do

6 so either. When I went to get this certificate, my sister and I went to

7 the Sanski Most municipal building. We went to room 26, and we asked to

8 move. The gentleman who was in that office told us to contact our

9 representative who was organising the convoy.

10 Q. And did you do it?

11 A. Yes, we did.

12 Q. And did they manage to arrange something for you?

13 A. No, they didn't.

14 MS. RICHTEROVA: I think we will break now -- we can break now and

15 I will start the new subject after the break.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Madam Richterova. We will break. I

17 understand you require 20 minutes. So we'll break for 20 minutes starting

18 from now. Thank you.

19 --- Recess taken at 3.52 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: [Microphone not activated] Yes, Madam Richterova.

22 MS. RICHTEROVA:

23 Q. Mr. Stojic, now I want to direct you back to your village, and I

24 want you to tell the Court what happened on 2nd November of 1992. Is it

25 correct that on the 2nd of November in the morning you left for Sanski

Page 6774

1 Most?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. With whom did you go?

4 A. I went with my aunt's son, my aunt -- who was called Dragan.

5 Q. What was her son's name?

6 A. His name was Dragan Tadic. I went with my aunt's son who was

7 called Dragan, the son.

8 Q. You stayed till midday and then you were -- you set out for your

9 village; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. On your way back to Skrljevita, did you meet any of your

12 neighbours?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Whom did you meet?

15 A. Ante Tutic, Petar Nikic, Zarko Nikic, and Josip Banovic.

16 Q. Did you go together or did these people went ahead of you?

17 A. Dragan and I went together.

18 Q. And these four men?

19 A. They went ahead of us.

20 Q. You were on the way to Skrljevita. Can you tell the Court what

21 happened on the way.

22 A. At the bottom of the Glamosnica forest, which leads towards

23 Skrljevita, we fell into an ambush. Behind bushes by the road there were

24 people in uniform and in civilian clothing with machine-guns, light

25 machine-guns. We said good day to them. They didn't reply. They asked

Page 6775

1 us where we were from. We said nothing. Then they asked us whether we

2 had any papers on us, any form of identification. We said that we did. I

3 first gave them my identity card. He took it and had a look at it and

4 then returned it to me. Then Dragan gave his. He read his name out aloud

5 and he used these words, "Tadic Nikola Dragan from Skrljevita," and he

6 returned it to him. He then said, "We will join our men from the village.

7 There are others."

8 Q. I will stop you here, Mr. Stojic. Can you describe these two men

9 who stopped you?

10 A. The first one was wearing civilian clothes. He had a short -- he

11 was wearing a short leather jacket. He was of medium height. He had a

12 thin beard, and he was carrying a light machine-gun which he supported

13 against his leg. And on the butt there was a Serbian mark that was

14 inscribed, four S's. The second man was next to him. He was in uniform.

15 He was wearing a camouflage uniform. He had a beret on his -- he was

16 wearing a beret, and there was a cockade on the beret and a Serbian cross

17 next to it. He had the belt belonging to the military police. It was a

18 white belt. He had handcuffs on him, a truncheon.

19 Q. Did you know these two men from before?

20 A. I didn't know them personally, but I had seen them.

21 Q. Did you know their name at the time?

22 A. I didn't at that time.

23 Q. Did you learn their names at a later point?

24 A. Yes, I did.

25 Q. From whom?

Page 6776

1 A. I found it out from my friends, who knew them personally. The man

2 in civilian clothes, his name was Danilusko Kajtez, known as Dane. He was

3 also well known as a Chetnik. The second man was Zoran Vukojevic.

4 Q. And you learned these names from your friends; is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that's right.

6 Q. These two men asked you to join them -- and I will correct

7 myself. They asked you to follow them and join your neighbours or the

8 other people who were further in the forest; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did you join them?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Who were these men?

13 A. When we arrived there -- when we got there from the road, behind

14 the bushes by the river itself, as soon as we arrived there I saw on a

15 sand -- a pile of sand, someone with a light machine-gun in uniform. He

16 was pointing it at the four men and these men were Ante Tutic, Zarko

17 Nikic, Petar Nikic, and Josip Banovic.

18 Q. What happened after you joined these men?

19 A. They then lined us up. They ordered us to raise our hands and

20 then turn to the left. When we turned around, they said, "Put your hands

21 down. It will be easier for you to hold on." And then we were searched.

22 There was another man behind the bushes in uniform. He wasn't very tall,

23 fairly well built. He had curly brown hair. He also joined in the

24 search. But he didn't actually carry out the search.

25 Q. Can you describe this uniform. Can you be more precise.

Page 6777

1 A. The uniforms were also military camouflage uniforms, only they had

2 nothing on their heads. Light machine-guns were the same, and also the

3 four S's were carved onto the rifle butts. All of them had two clips of

4 ammunition each.

5 Q. After they finished the search, what followed?

6 A. They then started questioning us, where we were keeping guard

7 duty, where we slept, where our leader was, the leader of the HDZ. "Where

8 is Ilija Tutic," they said. "Where is Bono Tutic?" All of us were put

9 questions of this kind. And while they were searching us, they seized all

10 our personal documents, the money we had on us, our personal belongings.

11 They called out Zare and Pero by their names. And from that, one can

12 infer that they knew them well. When Dragan and I arrived there, Zare

13 cried out, "My poor children," and Pero started sobbing. We were all

14 hit on the shoulders with truncheons, and then we were ordered to get

15 closer to one another. When the finished the search, they said, "We are

16 Seselj army. Then they moved away and I heard the command start.

17 Then the shooting started. There was the one with his light

18 machine-gun pointed at us, and we had our backs turned to him, so that I

19 wasn't able to see who actually committed the murder. I thought to myself

20 Dear God, will anyone survive to tell others what happened. When similar

21 killings occurred, if the Muslims were the victims then they said it was

22 the Ustashas that had killed them. If Croats were killed, they said it

23 was the Green Berets that had killed them. When executions took place by

24 firing squad, when this execution took place I got a bullet in my left

25 upper arm and I fell straight to the ground. As I was lying there on the

Page 6778

1 ground, I felt I had -- that a bullet had hit my hip and that the exit

2 wound was through my stomach. So I stayed there for a while lying down.

3 When they had finished this execution, I heard them saying, "Let's run for

4 it." And I could hear them running and the sound that their weapons made.

5 I lay there for a minute or two; I don't remember exactly for how

6 long. Then I raised my head and turned left and right and then returned

7 my head to the ground, lay my head on the ground again, listening to make

8 sure that they were not somewhere nearby. Then I got up. And when I got

9 up, my hand was quite numb. The blood was flowing. Also I had an entry

10 and exit wound in my stomach. I just felt my fingers. Then I put my hand

11 in my jacket. I turned around and what I saw was a horrific scene.

12 Banovic Josip, Zarko Nikic, Ante Tutic, and Petar Nikic had fallen towards

13 this rivulet. On top of those bodies were Zarko Nikic, whom I could see

14 well. I could see well what he looked like. His skull had been blown to

15 bits. Blood was flowing. They were touching the water of the river. The

16 brain was seeping out and the blood was mixing with the water. Dragan

17 Tadic fell a metre or two away from me. He was curled up somehow, and he

18 was on the ground, on the grass. I saw that no one was crying for help,

19 and I saw that these men had been shot dead.

20 Q. Where did you go after you observed the death of your neighbours?

21 A. After that I moved away from the scene of the crime and headed

22 towards the river. I covered some 30 metres from the crime scene and then

23 I continued through the water. So I reached a meadow that used to be

24 owned by the late Zarko Nikic at the foot of the Glamosnica wood. I

25 crossed this meadow and went into the wood slowly, but then the pain got

Page 6779

1 worse so that I could only move slowly, taking rests every so often.

2 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt. You were -- where were you heading?

3 A. In the direction of Skrljevita.

4 Q. On the way to Skrljevita, at any point did you hear a sound of

5 fire, bursts of fire?

6 A. Yes. When I was in the woods, I first heard the sound of a

7 tractor and I thought to myself that they were looking for me. However,

8 there was a small stream there running through the wood itself and some

9 branches, so I hid there. Then I heard again at the bottom of the wood

10 the sound of very strong bursts of fire.

11 Q. Did you learn at some later stage what happened?

12 A. Yes, I did. I did learn what happened.

13 Q. What did you learn?

14 A. I learnt when I was in Banja Luka ...

15 Q. What did you learn when you were in Banja Luka?

16 A. My sister came to see me at the ward where I was being treated.

17 No, I'm sorry, not my sister. Ivo Tutic's sister; who was killed but not

18 at the same time when I was shot. She heard about me, that I was in Banja

19 Luka, and she approached me and greeted me and she said that her brother

20 had been killed as well as Bruno Tutic, Adlo Tatic [phoen], and Josip

21 Fertalac [phoen].

22 Q. I'm sorry, I interrupted you. When you described your way towards

23 the Skrljevita and then you heard the burst of fire. Can you now describe

24 further the way to the Skrljevita. Did you manage to get some help on

25 your way?

Page 6780

1 A. I can. First of all, badly injured as I was, I managed to somehow

2 reach the house of Zarko Nikic, who had been killed. In front of the

3 house, the dogs started barking and his children came out. When they saw

4 the condition I was in, they asked about their father and started crying.

5 Just then I told them to keep quiet because they could come and kill them

6 as well. I said that Zare had been killed, but they didn't believe me.

7 So I entered the house. His daughter led me in. And I sat down for a

8 while inside. They started asking me questions again. I told them then

9 that I didn't know that he had been killed, because I was afraid that the

10 screaming might attract them and they might come and kill them as well.

11 They ran off then to the house of the -- of Pero Nikic -- Petar Nikic, who

12 had also been killed, and his wife was there. His wife's name and Marija,

13 Marija Banovic, the mother, whose son Josip had been killed.

14 Then Zarko's daughter came back. She gave me a hand. And as we

15 were leaving the village, or the hamlet called Numara, Pero's wife and

16 the mother of Josip, both of whom had been killed, arrived together with

17 two small children who were underage. Zarko's wife had a small baby. I

18 don't remember exactly how old the baby was. They left me there and they

19 went on to the village looking for aid. However, I couldn't wait, so I

20 slowly dragged myself to Joso Tutic's house. No one came, so slowly I

21 started off towards the house of Josip Banovic, who had also been killed.

22 Q. Mr. Stojic, is it correct to say that at the end you managed to

23 reach your village, you were -- first aid was given to you, and then you

24 were taken on the cart to the health centre in Sanski Most?

25 A. Correct, yes. When I reached the house, I couldn't move any

Page 6781

1 more. I was given first aid by Ante Ilicic, Josip Banovic's neighbour and

2 my friend. Then all the locals by then had learnt of what had happened

3 and my brother arrived with a horse-drawn cart and my neighbour Franjo

4 Ilicic. Quite a large group of people had gathered by then. They carried

5 me out of the house and laid me down in the cart. As we went forward with

6 my brother and neighbour Franjo, my aunt's son Drago came as well. When

7 we reached the hamlet of Tutici, there was a large crowd of people there.

8 When they saw me, Josip Ptalec's wife and Bono Tutic's wife said that

9 there was no Bono and no Tomica. I replied, "Who hadn't come, wouldn't

10 come," because there was no chance of them getting through.

11 Q. Mr. Stojic, you were -- as you agreed, you were taken on the cart

12 to Sanski Most, where you were provided with first aid in the health

13 centre. And then from Sanski Most, you were transferred to Prijedor. Is

14 that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. From Prijedor, you were transferred to Banja Luka hospital; is

17 that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In Banja Luka hospital, what kind of treatment did you receive?

20 Now I am talking about medical treatment.

21 A. When I arrived there, I was taken in on a stretcher. And in the

22 admissions office, the nurse asked me which military unit I belonged to.

23 I answered that I was not in the army, that I had been shot as a civilian,

24 and they immediately prepared me for surgery. I woke up the next morning

25 in the intensive care unit.

Page 6782

1 Q. How long did you stay in this intensive unit?

2 A. Two days, as far as I can remember.

3 Q. During your stay in Banja Luka hospital, were you transferred in

4 some other unit within the hospital?

5 A. On the 9th of November, I was transferred to the urology ward.

6 But on the 9th already, the 9th of November, in the surgery ward where I

7 was lying an incident occurred, that I mentioned before. Ivo Tutic's

8 sister, whose brother had been killed, she was working at the ward, below

9 where a person from my village called Ivo Nikic was lying. As we

10 exchanged greetings. And she left. Ivo Nikic came to see me. Next to me

11 Milan Oljaca was lying in a bed next to me, whose left leg had been

12 amputated. Even before Nikic and I managed to greet one another, he felt

13 ill, he was unwell. And then Nurse Nada ran in and asked, "What is it,

14 Milan?" And he answered that he had never felt worse in his life than

15 since this Ustasha had arrived there. Then she turned to Nikic and said

16 to him, "What are you doing here? Get out." And she cursed him. "Do you

17 want me to throw you out of the window," she said. After that, he left.

18 I tried to explain to this Milan that this was a man from my village, and

19 his response was that he was an Ustasha 100 per cent, that he personally

20 had captured him in Croatia on the front and that he had been exchanged

21 and how could an Ustasha come back. And then he said to me that he could

22 change his ID card, that he could change everything, but that he would

23 still be an Ustasha.

24 Q. Mr. Stojic, based on this incident what happened? Was it this

25 incident -- was it after this incident when you were transferred to

Page 6783

1 another ward within the Banja Luka hospital?

2 A. Yes, that is when I was transferred, after that.

3 Q. And --

4 A. But first Nurse Nada came and said to me the following: "Stojic,

5 you will not leave the hospital until the military police releases you.

6 There's no point in your family looking for you through the International

7 Red Cross."

8 Q. So where were you exactly transferred?

9 A. As I said, I was transferred to the urology ward, in cell number

10 8.

11 Q. When you say "cell," how do you know that it was a cell?

12 A. Because a soldier was standing there and the nurse who had taken

13 me there asked where she should put me. And this soldier had the door

14 handle in his hand. He had taken it out of the door.

15 Q. So you said a cell. Does it mean it was a prison cell?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In which prison?

18 A. In the hospital.

19 Q. You said a prison cell in hospital. But which prison did you --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- do you mean?

22 A. I received an official report from the International Committee of

23 the Red Cross that the prison is Tunjice.

24 Q. You were taken into a cell. Were you during the time where you

25 were in the cell, were you charged with something?

Page 6784

1 A. Officially I never received any indictment. But let me first

2 explain the situation in cell number 8. When this soldier opened the

3 door, the nurse asked him, "Where shall I put him?" He responded, "Throw

4 him on the ground." There were some other wounded people there already

5 who had been brought there from Kotor Varos, a person who had got injured

6 at the Manjaca camp, and they were Muslims. I found there already on the

7 bed -- sitting on the bed Ivo Nikic, and then we were shut up.

8 Q. Mr. Stojic, can you just briefly describe the sanitary conditions

9 in this cell -- or in cells in which you were kept.

10 A. When I arrived at that cell, the sheets were bloodstained, stained

11 with pus. There was a heavy smell from the -- from the excreter. The

12 window was slightly opened, but when I arrived at that cell we were given

13 lunch. We got our lunch. When the soldier opened the door, we were

14 ordered to raise three fingers up like this. Then he said, "That's how

15 you should do it. Now you are Serbs." Then these nurses came and they

16 were shown how many Ustashas there were captured there. When we finished

17 lunch, the soldier ordered the serving lady to count the forks, to make

18 sure we didn't kill ourselves. And then we stayed for a certain time in

19 that cell number 8.

20 Q. Were you transferred to some other cell?

21 A. Yes, I was.

22 Q. How many people were in the other cell?

23 A. There were five.

24 Q. Can you briefly tell us how were you treated during your stay in

25 the cell.

Page 6785

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Page 6786

1 A. Before my actual transfer, I was pushed into the corridor. Nurse

2 Ljubisava was wearing a green hospital uniform. She started mistreating

3 me there, harassing me. She asked me how many Serbs I had killed, how

4 many Serb women I had raped, how many children I had slaughtered. Then

5 she brought in a passer-by who stank of alcohol to see an Ustasha. And

6 then he took it out on me. He started insulting me, and I tried to

7 explain to him what I had been through, but it was all in vain. Where had

8 I been captured. But there was no way I could explain it to him. When I

9 explained how I had been wounded, he said, "What were you doing in the

10 woods?" And then he went on to ask, "How many Serbs have you killed,"

11 again. When I tried to explain that I hadn't killed anyone, he said that

12 I was lying. He asked Ljubisava to give him a bullet. Literally he said,

13 "Give me a bullet so I can kill him." Then he said, "No, not a bullet.

14 Give me a knife to cut his throat with. It's cheaper." Then they called

15 a young boy of 12 or 13 who had his arm in a cast also to come and look at

16 the Ustasha. I had a fixture on my left arm, and then this young boy

17 said, "Look at the Ustasha. They've given him a fixture." So this went

18 on for about half an hour.

19 Then a soldier came. Again with the door handle in his hand and

20 he opened cell number 9. I saw him do it. Then Nurse Ljubisava pushed me

21 inside and said, "Choose whichever bed you want." I couldn't get up. I

22 was on a trolley, and I had a drainage tube and I somehow managed to lie on

23 the bed as you enter the room on the right-hand side of the window.

24 Q. Mr. Stojic, how long did you stay in this cell? We understand you

25 were transferred on 9 of November. How long did you stay there?

Page 6787

1 A. In cell number 8 or cell number 9?

2 Q. The second cell.

3 A. For a total of 32 days, as far as I can remember.

4 Q. When were you released?

5 A. I was released on the 11th of December.

6 Q. During the time you were in the cell number 9, these 32 days, how

7 were you treated? Did you receive normal medical care?

8 A. First of all, I was given an intravenous drip. The nurse brought

9 in four or five bottles and put them on the table next to me. But the

10 needle was stuck in a part of my arm where -- where the arm moves, so my

11 vein burst and the intravenous drip dripped. There was a leak. When I

12 asked for them to correct it she came and pulled it out. Then she

13 gathered everything and took it away. But first of all, I should describe

14 these others in cell number 9.

15 Q. Mr. Stojic, before you describe the others, I would really like

16 you to answer my question about this medical treatment within these 32

17 hours -- sorry, within the 32 days. You said you were supposed to get

18 this IV insulation, but you didn't receive it because the needle got

19 stuck.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you receive the regular medical treatment in the time when you

22 were in the cell?

23 A. No, no.

24 Q. About this medical treatment. You were at the beginning

25 complaining about the hygiene conditions. You said that the sheets were

Page 6788

1 dirty. How often did they change these sheets?

2 A. Yes. As far as I can remember, two or three times in all. And

3 that was before delegates from the International Committee of the Red

4 Cross came to visit. The 19th of November was the first time they

5 visited. Then this cleaning lady came to tidy up the room. We

6 realised -- we noticed that something would happen. A delegate from the

7 International Red Cross came, and he was accompanied by a translator. As

8 far as I can remember, I think his name was Sinisa [phoen].

9 Q. So is it correct that your sheets were always changed in --

10 within -- before the visit of International Red Cross?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. Stojic, can you tell the Court how you were treated by the

13 guards and by the nurse -- by the nurses when you were in this cell. Just

14 briefly, please.

15 A. Well, very callously. They personally, and especially Nurse

16 Ljubisava, would bring in wounded people from another ward to beat us.

17 Q. So were you beaten during the stay in the cell?

18 A. Yes, I was.

19 Q. How many times were you beaten?

20 A. Earlier on I said in my statement that they beat me on two

21 occasions. But they did it on more occasions than that, because one

22 didn't feel like counting at the time.

23 Q. What about the people who were with you in the cell? How were

24 they treated?

25 A. Callously. I know that Ramiz Skoric who was killed in

Page 6789

1 Manjaca -- who was wounded in Manjaca, he lost both legs. He said that

2 Manjaca was great and that he was happy about the fact that we were going

3 to be transferred to the Manjaca camp. So when they were taken away for

4 questioning, that's what they were told.

5 Q. Mr. Stojic, you said you were beaten more than one time. What

6 about the people who were in the cell with you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were they beaten?

9 A. Yes. They beat everyone. While they were beating the people in

10 cell number 8, we would hear terrible blows. We were -- we already

11 started getting ready in cell number 9 in order to get through this more

12 easily.

13 Q. Who did the beating?

14 A. We were beaten by civilians and by soldiers and by anyone who

15 could enter that cell.

16 Q. When you are referring to "soldiers," can you be more specific.

17 What kind of soldiers?

18 A. Serbian soldiers.

19 Q. Can you be even more specific. Were they regular reservists,

20 military police?

21 A. Who knows what they were like. I think they were the ones who

22 were sent away, who weren't under control. They were out of control.

23 Q. Mr. Stojic, what were the consequences of the event on the 2nd of

24 November, 1992 for you?

25 A. Well, the consequences were terrible. I am permanently disabled.

Page 6790

1 I'm not fit to work. And so to speak I'm not fit for life, for life which

2 would be a dignified life for a man. But first of all, I should describe

3 the conditions -- the other conditions in that notorious cell, especially

4 the wounded who came in the evening, they would break their crutches when

5 dealing blows to Ramiz Skoric. They used truncheons to beat us with.

6 They would kick us. They would punch us. And I can remember when many of

7 them entered the cell on one occasion, they maltreated us to such an

8 extent -- they asked us for money. They took the gold that the Muslims

9 had, their watches. They took everything. They also asked me to give

10 them something, but I had nothing. On one occasion when they had beaten

11 me, when he approached me he took the sheet off to see where I had been

12 operated. He then covered me with the sheet again. Then he moved away

13 and kicked me in the stomach. He continued kicking me until I started

14 bleeding. And that's what happened with the others. That's what happened

15 with the others too.

16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Stojic. Now --

17 JUDGE AGIUS: I think we can stop for a break. Would 15 minutes

18 be okay now, or do you still require 20?

19 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I'll be happy with 15

20 minutes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. So it will be a 15-minute break. Strictly 15

22 minutes, please.

23 --- Recess taken at 5.16 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 5.33 p.m.

25 MS. RICHTEROVA:

Page 6791

1 Q. Mr. Stojic, I have now a series of documents in front of me. They

2 are excerpts from the court file against Danilusko Kajtez. All these

3 documents have been disclosed. And now I want to go one by one and

4 just -- I want you to make comments.

5 The first document is a document which has already been

6 prenumbered -- exhibited, sorry. P781.1.

7 MS. RICHTEROVA: I must apologise. I must apologise. It's

8 document 812. I'm sorry.

9 I think you all have this document in front of you, so we don't

10 need to put it on the ELMO.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes.

12 MS. RICHTEROVA:

13 Q. This document was issued at the health centre Sanski Most and it

14 is a report on an investigation in the village of Kruhari. You can see

15 the list of the names. Do you know the people who are listed in this

16 report?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. Are those people who were killed on the 2nd of November in --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- the Glamosnica forest?

21 And is it correct to say that five of them were killed together

22 with you and the remaining four were killed during that fire you heard

23 from the distance and you learned about that incident in the hospital in

24 Banja Luka? Is it correct?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 6792

1 Q. The other document which I want to show to the witness is document

2 813, P813. This is an indictment issued by the military prosecutor's

3 office in Banja Luka, and it is an indictment against Danilusko Kajtez and

4 Milos Maksimovic.

5 Mr. Stojic, can you just read the paragraph below which starts on

6 2nd November, 1992.

7 A. I can.

8 Q. Oh, have you -- I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Have you read this passage

9 before?

10 A. No, I haven't. It's the first time I've seen it.

11 Q. So can you please slowly read it.

12 A. "On the 2nd November 1992, in the village of Glamosnica, Sanski

13 Most municipality, the aforementioned using the automatic weapons

14 they had, waylaid male inhabitants of the village of Skrljevita,

15 interrogated them on the pretext of finding out who had weapons and how

16 well they were organised. They then executed Ivo Tutic, son of Ante" --

17 but this Ivo, his father is Nikola -- "from Skrljevita; Bono Tutic, son of

18 Marijan from Skrljevita." It's not Talic but Ptalec. "Tomica, son of

19 Josip." He's from Croatia but he's from Skrljevita. "Josip Banovic, son

20 of Ivo from Skrljevita; Zare Nikic, son of Martin, from Skrljevita; Pero

21 Nikic, son of Marko, from Skrljevita; Ante Tutic, son of Ivo from

22 Skrljevita; Drago Tadic, son of Nikola from Skrljevita; and Karlo Tadic,

23 son of Marko from Skrljevita."

24 Q. Thank you. Is this an accurate description of the event which

25 occurred on the 2nd November 1992?

Page 6793

1 A. The description is correct.

2 Q. Now I want to proceed. And I want to show the witness the other

3 document which was pre-numbered P814.

4 MS. RICHTEROVA: There are two copies of the same document. One

5 is illegible. And the other is a better copy.

6 Q. Do you know, Mr. Stojic, whether anybody was -- Danilusko Kajtez

7 was arrested for this event?

8 A. That's what I heard. I heard that he was arrested.

9 Q. So this document statement on 7th of December 1992,

10 Danilusko Kajtez was taken into custody. Did you hear that he was

11 released from the custody?

12 A. I heard that too.

13 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can I show the witness another document, which

14 was pre-numbered P815. And there are also two copies of the B/C/S version

15 because one is illegible.

16 Q. And it says that Danilusko Kajtez was released from the custody.

17 Can you see the date of ...?

18 A. Yes, I can. The 2nd of January, 1993.

19 Q. So he didn't stay more than one month in the custody.

20 MS. RICHTEROVA: Then we have another document. And I think you

21 can stay there. It's a document pre-numbered 816, when Danilusko Kajtez

22 was again taken into custody.

23 Q. Have you seen this document before?

24 A. No. It's the first time I see this document.

25 MS. RICHTEROVA: And then we have another document pre-numbered

Page 6794

1 P817, which shows that Danilusko Kajtez was released from the custody on

2 14 of March, 1995.

3 Q. Do you know what happened to Danilusko Kajtez after he was

4 released from the custody?

5 A. I know that he was in Sanski Most; I heard that. I heard that he

6 obtained a cafe in Sanski Most as a prize. It was called Ruski Czar or

7 the "Russian Tsar." The owner was a Muslim. He was in Sanski Most from

8 the centre towards the Catholic church, on the road Banja Luka-Sanski

9 Most, through the Sasina village. I heard that he did that and that he

10 responded to the name "Dane, the Chetnik."

11 Q. Mr. Stojic, now I want to show you another document which was

12 pre-numbered P818. And it is a decision where it was approved --

13 approving -- a decision approving the change of personal name from

14 Danilusko Kajtez, and he will legally use the name Nikola Kovacevic. Did

15 you hear that Danilusko Kajtez would change his name?

16 A. Yes, I heard it.

17 Q. I have two more documents. The first one was pre-numbered 81 --

18 P819. And it is a decision that on 7 of December 2000 Danilusko Kajtez,

19 who is still named here as Danilusko Kajtez shall be remanded into

20 custody.

21 And then I want to show you another document which was

22 pre-numbered 820, which is from 17 of January 2002. And it is a ruling

23 that Danilusko Kajtez, again called with this name -- that Danilusko

24 Kajtez is to be tried in absentia. It means that until January 2002 no

25 action was done.

Page 6795

1 Have you ever been called to -- as a witness in this procedure

2 which took place in front -- in Banja Luka district court?

3 A. I wasn't called ever.

4 Q. Were you interviewed while you were in hospital in -- I

5 apologise -- in connection with this incident?

6 A. Yes. In hospital an inspector from Sanski Most came. But before

7 I was in the cell he introduced himself as being Mile Dosen.

8 Q. So after this interview, you weren't called as a witness in the

9 procedure of -- in Banja Luka; is it correct?

10 A. I was not. That's correct.

11 MS. RICHTEROVA: I want to remind that already exhibited was a

12 document P781.2, which is a letter of Danilusko Kajtez to Vlado Vrkes

13 threatening if he didn't help to get him to release.

14 Your Honour, I've concluded my examination-in-chief of Grgo

15 Stojic.

16 JUDGE AGIUS: Could I just ask you one question, sir. Have you

17 ever heard of the name of Goran Vukojevic?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have heard it.

19 JUDGE AGIUS: And Todo Vokic?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: Did they have any connection with the events that

22 took place on the 2nd November, 1992?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Those are the two men who were

24 there when we were approaching the other four, when the execution was

25 carried out.

Page 6796

1 JUDGE AGIUS: So if one states that they could have been witnesses

2 in the case against Dane Kajtez, that would be a correct statement.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

4 JUDGE AGIUS: And I notice that in this document, your name is not

5 mentioned anywhere. Can you give us a reason for that? You are not

6 indicated as a possible witness or a probable witness.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

8 JUDGE AGIUS: Can you think of a reason?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not clear to me at all why I'm

10 not mentioned as a surviving witness.

11 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably because in this way they

13 can be free.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Who is going to go first?

15 Yes. You are now going to be cross-examined by Madam Fauveau, who

16 is counsel for General Talic.

17 Madam Fauveau.

18 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

19 Cross-examined by Ms. Fauveau-Ivanovic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Stojic, before beginning I should like to

21 express my deep sympathy for the tragedy that you lived through on that

22 day in November 1992.

23 I am going to first ask you a few questions about that event, or

24 more precisely the circumstances under which this murder took place. And

25 then I will have a few more general questions for you.

Page 6797

1 At the time of this murder on the 2nd of November, 1992 there were

2 no military operations in Skrljevita; is that right?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And at the time of the murder, there were no tanks or military

5 vehicles close to the scene of the crime.

6 A. They were not seen there.

7 Q. You said in your written statement, and you also said today, that

8 Kajtez was wearing civilian clothes; is that right?

9 A. Right.

10 Q. And you also spoke of Goran Vukojevic, who was in uniform and

11 who wore a military belt; is that right? A belt of the military police;

12 is that right?

13 A. Not just any uniform. A camouflage uniform. And a belt worn by

14 the military police, yes.

15 Q. And you said that he had a beret with a cockade and the Serb cross

16 and the four S's; is that right?

17 A. Yes, that's right. The four S's were on the barrel -- on the

18 rifle butt, on the butt of his light machine-gun.

19 Q. Is it not true that regularly -- regular military police did not

20 wear berets with cockades and the Serb cross?

21 A. They told us that they were Seselj's army, just before killing

22 us.

23 Q. Seselj's army would be a paramilitary unit, would it not?

24 A. Yes, they were part of the paramilitary formation then.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: One moment, Ms. Korner, because I have a suspicion.

Page 6798

1 I want to make sure that the witness knows what "paramilitary" means.

2 What do you understand by "paramilitary"?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The paramilitary, in my opinion, is

4 the unit outside control -- the control of the military command and the

5 civilian command.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: You may go ahead.

7 MS. KORNER: Yes, Your Honour. I don't think -- I don't think it

8 matters much. And as much as I would like to get into defence mode, Your

9 Honour referred to Madam Fauveau as Ms. Korner.

10 JUDGE AGIUS: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I apologise.

11 MS. KORNER: I suppose one of us should be insulted. I'm not sure

12 who.

13 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I certainly am not.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Madam Fauveau. Please.

15 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. You described today how after these murders that took place you

17 went to your village of Skrljevita and how once there the neighbours

18 helped you.

19 A. Yes, that's right.

20 Q. Is it not true that a woman called Nada, who was a Serb, also

21 helped you?

22 A. Yes. But she comes from a mixed marriage. That is true too,

23 yes. Her name is Nada Ilicic. She worked in my village. She lived at my

24 place, and she knows everyone in Skrljevita.

25 Q. That woman, Nada Ilicic, did she accompany you to Sanski Most?

Page 6799

1 A. She called the ambulance once we reached her.

2 Q. And did the ambulance come?

3 A. No. We went in a horse-drawn cart.

4 Q. As far as Sanski Most -- going to Sanski Most, did you have to

5 pass through any checkpoints?

6 A. Yes. At the very entrance to Sanski Most, that is, the town

7 itself. Close to the Catholic church.

8 Q. You passed through there without any problems.

9 A. Yes, on that occasion we passed through without any problems.

10 Q. When you arrived at the Sanski Most hospital, were you

11 interrogated by the police?

12 A. I was.

13 Q. And these police officers, were they polite with you?

14 A. Yes, they were.

15 Q. And you told them exactly what happened?

16 A. What I told you here I told them.

17 Q. And afterwards at the Banja Luka hospital, this other inspector,

18 Mile Dosen, that you mentioned today, he also arrived, didn't he?

19 A. Yes, he did.

20 Q. And you told him too exactly what happened.

21 A. Yes, I did. That's right.

22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar give

23 the witness Exhibit P813.

24 Q. Sir, a moment ago you saw this indictment, and you said that the

25 description of the crime is quite correct; is that right?

Page 6800

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Is your copy as -- if your copy is as bad as mine, I don't think

3 you can see the date. But apparently the date appears on the English

4 version as being the 2nd of June, 1993.

5 A. Yes, yes.

6 Q. So an indictment was issued after you told these inspectors what

7 had happened.

8 A. Yes, that's right.

9 Q. And in 1993 -- the summer of 1993, you were already in Croatia.

10 A. Yes, I was.

11 Q. Is it not true that you were not called as a witness because you

12 were in Croatia?

13 A. I don't know that. But I never received any documents in Sanski

14 Most. And how could I get them, when the village was already empty.

15 JUDGE AGIUS: Madam Fauveau, if you look at the second page of

16 that document, the penultimate paragraph, it says: "The Prosecution's

17 proposal to hear the testimony of witnesses Goran Vukojevic and Todo Vokic

18 because they are the only surviving witnesses, the only surviving

19 witnesses." That's what it states here.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only killers.

21 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. But

22 there were no relations between Croatia and Republika Srpska at the time.

23 Q. Sir, can you confirm that there were no relations as far as you

24 know at the time between Croatia and Republika Srpska?

25 A. Then how could these people have been expelled from

Page 6801

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina and how could they cross into Croatia?

2 Q. Do you know whether there were any diplomatic relations or any

3 other relations between Croatia and Republika Srpska or whether the postal

4 services functioned between Republika Srpska and Croatia?

5 A. The postal services did not function, but there were humanitarian

6 organisations that were functioning.

7 Q. When you came to Croatia, did you send your address to Republika

8 Srpska?

9 A. To whom would I do that?

10 Q. Could you please look at Exhibit 816, please.

11 Is it a decision dated the 9th of July, 1993 according to which

12 Danilusko Kajtez was placed in detention, pre-trial detention?

13 A. Yes, that's right.

14 Q. Could you please look at Exhibit 817 now, please. It is the

15 ruling according to which Danilusko Kajtez was temporarily released on the

16 14th of March, 1995?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And if you look at the first paragraph, below the word "statement

19 of reasons," the decision refers to a decision dated the 9th of July, 1993

20 on pre-trial detention; is that right?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So it is -- is it correct to say that according to these two

23 decisions, Danilusko Kajtez was in detention since July 1993 up to March

24 1995? From July until March.

25 A. That is not correct.

Page 6802

1 Q. How do you know it is not true?

2 A. Because the Serbs who lived there know that.

3 Q. Could you explain in that case the decision of March 1995.

4 A. March 1995? As far as I know Sanski Most was liberated on the

5 20th of October, 1995. And as far as I know, he was in detention at the

6 beginning of 1993 and he was held at the Manjaca camp, where they had a

7 detention centre. That is the information that reached me. How then

8 could he have had that cafe that I already mentioned called "the Russian

9 Tsar," that used to be owned by a Muslim, when Nada's daughter knew him

10 personally and she went to that cafe that he ran.

11 Q. Sir, did you personally see Danilusko Kajtez between 1993 and 1995

12 anywhere?

13 A. How could I see him? I was in Croatia and he was in Sanski Most.

14 Q. Would you allow for the possibility, then, that he was indeed in

15 detention between July 1993 and March 1995?

16 A. You can put anything on paper. Paper stands for anything. Paper

17 will tolerate anything.

18 Q. I go back for a moment to your detention at the Banja Luka

19 hospital. You said that a given moment you were placed in a cell.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. This room, it was in the hospital, was it not?

22 A. Yes.

23 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the registrar give

24 the witness DT16 and DT17, please.

25 Q. DT16 is a letter from the bishop of Banja Luka to the Zagreb

Page 6803

1 hospital; is that right?

2 A. It was not addressed. It was given to me to carry with me. It's

3 a recommendation for doctor's treatment.

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would kindly request that it be

5 placed on the ELMO if possible.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Usher, please place it on the ELMO and try to move

7 the ELMO as near to the witness as possible so that he can refer to it.

8 It's needed to be on the ELMO by the interpreters.

9 If you have the English version, you can put the English version

10 on the ELMO, and he will have --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: -- the one in B/C/S.

13 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. So this letter was written by Bishop Franjo Komarica and then

15 given to you; is that right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Before you gave this letter to the hospital, did anyone else have

18 occasion to see it? Was anyone else able to see it?

19 A. No, no one could see it.

20 Q. So in this letter, Bishop Komarica writes that you were released

21 from the Banja Luka hospital on the 11th of December. Is that right?

22 A. I've already said that.

23 Q. This letter makes absolutely no mention of the prison. It only

24 mentions the hospital.

25 A. Let me ask you. How could the letter mention a prison when we

Page 6804

1 know where Bishop Komarica was in 1992? Was he in Banja Luka? And it was

2 not the bishop who was in prison. I was in prison.

3 Q. You said that between the moment you received this letter and the

4 moment the letter was given to the Zagreb hospital, no one was able to see

5 that letter. Why then wouldn't the bishop have written the truth?

6 A. I don't know that. I show you what the International Red Cross

7 said where I was. Here is the document.

8 Q. I can't see it from here.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. Can you put it on the ELMO for the time being,

10 please.

11 In what language is it?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's in the Croatian language.

13 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. I'm going to -- exactly. I'm going to do

14 that. But first I want to see it.

15 Yes. Now --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And there's this certificate too.

17 JUDGE AGIUS: There are two ways we can go about this. The

18 witness can be handed this document and I can ask him to read out its

19 contents. And obviously we'll have it photocopied and distributed.

20 That's one way of dealing with it.

21 That's another one?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've got this document here.

23 JUDGE AGIUS: Is there an agreement that we should photocopy

24 everything to start with?

25 Is that in English?

Page 6805

1 MR. USHER: B/C/S.

2 JUDGE AGIUS: But that's not the same document. No? Is it the

3 same --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This is a certificate --

5 JUDGE AGIUS: Let's start with the first of the documents that you

6 put -- that were put on the ELMO. Let's start with that one.

7 Usher, please give it to the witness.

8 Take that document in your hand, sir, and tell us what it says,

9 what's written there.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was a message sent to me by my

11 brothers.

12 JUDGE AGIUS: Slowly. Read out slowly, please.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Croatian Red Cross, 109, at the

14 International Committee of the Red Cross, the 25th of February,

15 received."

16 Ante and Ivo Stojic sent it to me. That's right. From Zagreb.

17 "Recipient, Grgo Stojic. Date of birth, 1968. Sex, male. Address, Banja

18 Luka hospital."

19 And at the bottom it says, beneath in red: "11th of December,

20 Tunjice - released." It's an abbreviation for "released."

21 "According to the information that the International Red Cross

22 has -- that the International Committee of the Red Cross in Banja Luka

23 has, the above-mentioned person was released on the 11th of December, 1992

24 from the Tunjice prison. And the International Committee of the Red Cross

25 in Banja Luka on the 11th of February 1993. Signature."

Page 6806

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Now, we can have someone go and photocopy that

2 document straight away, please.

3 And you have a second document that you want to show us?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have. A certificate from the

5 International Committee of the Red Cross, from Zagreb.

6 JUDGE AGIUS: Could you read it out to us, please, slowly.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

8 "Zagreb, the 27th of January, 1993. Certificate.

9 "We hereby confirm that Grgo Stojic, son of Dragan, born on the

10 30th of January, 1968 in Sanski Most, who was registered by delegates of

11 the International Committee of the Red Cross on the 19th of November,

12 [Realtime transcript read in error "1993"] 1992 in the Banja Luka prison.

13 He has been visited regularly from the 19th of November, 1992 up until the

14 3rd of December, 1992. He was released on the 11th of December, 1992."

15 And here it says "according to what the authorities have stated."

16 There's a signature, "the delegate of the service for searches."

17 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes, Mr. Ackerman.

18 MR. ACKERMAN: Your Honour, there's a mistake in the transcript.

19 What he read was -- where it says: "We hereby confirm," where he's

20 quoting. It says that he was "Registered by the International Committee

21 of the Red Cross on 19 November 1993." What he said was 1992.

22 JUDGE AGIUS: You've heard what Mr. Ackerman has said. Is he --

23 is what Mr. Ackerman has just stated correct?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's correct to say that I was

25 registered on the 19th of November, 1992.

Page 6807

1 JUDGE AGIUS: Thank you, Mr. Ackerman.

2 Madam Fauveau, do you want these two documents tendered as

3 evidence for your client?

4 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE AGIUS: So those will be DT18 and 19.

6 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: 18 and 19.

7 JUDGE AGIUS: Okay. We will give you the originals back.

8 Yes, Madam Fauveau, please proceed.

9 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. These two documents date back to 1993; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. They were written after you had arrived in Croatia; isn't that

13 so?

14 A. Yes, it is.

15 Q. And they were written in Zagreb.

16 A. One document was written in Banja Luka -- or rather, it was

17 certified there.

18 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] I can't comment on this

19 before seeing the document.

20 JUDGE AGIUS: It will soon be available, Madam Fauveau, give or

21 take two minutes.

22 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. In the meantime, could you have a look at document DT17. Is that

24 a document from Caritas in Banja Luka?

25 A. Yes, it is.

Page 6808

1 Q. Which was addressed to the prison exchange commission of the

2 Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And this document refers to a list of prisoners.

5 A. Yes, that's correct.

6 Q. The persons who were detained in the camps in prisons and in

7 hospitals in Banja Luka -- and in the surroundings of Banja Luka.

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. And then this document mentions your name.

10 A. Yes, that's right.

11 Q. And further on, the document states that you were in the hospital

12 in Banja Luka.

13 A. In the cell in the hospital.

14 Q. This document doesn't mention a prison.

15 A. Well, you should have been there in 1992 to see it.

16 Q. Nevertheless this document does mention that people were detained

17 in camps, prisons, and hospitals. But as far as you were concerned, it

18 says that you were in the hospital.

19 A. Yes, but in prison.

20 Q. According to this document, were you in prison?

21 A. On the basis of this document -- well, you can see all three men

22 were in hospital in Banja Luka and their lives were endangered, because

23 the witnesses were inconvenient -- "Are inconvenient witnesses to crimes

24 in the municipality of Sanski Most. The above-named people are from

25 Skrljevita, municipality of Sanski Most." And the signature says -- if

Page 6809

1 that's a hospital in normal conditions, as it should be, according to the

2 conventions of the International Committee of the Red Cross, then I -- in

3 such a case, our lives would not have been in danger.

4 Q. Iím not arguing the conditions that may have prevailed in that

5 hospital, but my only question was were you in the hospital itself and not

6 in a prison of Tunjice, at least on the basis of this document?

7 A. I was in the urology ward in the hospital, in cell number 9.

8 First of all, I was in cell number 8.

9 JUDGE AGIUS: Yeah. You explained that. You don't need to go

10 through it again.

11 MS. FAUVEAU-IVANOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have

12 several general questions. Would it be better to stop now and continue

13 tomorrow? I will need 15 minutes tomorrow.

14 JUDGE AGIUS: Yes. And -- so Madam Fauveau will need 15 minutes.

15 May I ask you, Mr. Ackerman -- yes, Mr. Trbojevic, how long do you

16 think your cross-examination will last?

17 MR. TRBOJEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was intending to

18 cross-examine for 15 minutes. If Ms. Fauveau doesn't put the questions

19 that I intend to put. It can only be less than that, less than 15

20 minutes.

21 JUDGE AGIUS: I know where you stand. Okay.

22 MS. KORNER: Can I just tell Your Honours that for the next

23 witness, there's no List of Documents because all I'm going to do is use

24 the ones that are attached to his statement.

25 JUDGE AGIUS: All right. Okay. I thank you.

Page 6810

1 Sir, we need to stop here because this is the agreed time for

2 adjourning. We will resume tomorrow at 2.15 in the afternoon. Hopefully

3 we will not need to keep you waiting like we did today. And I'm sure that

4 tomorrow we will finish with your evidence so that you will be in a

5 position to return home. I thank you, and we'll see you again tomorrow.

6 Thank you, everyone. And tomorrow afternoon we will be meeting in

7 this same courtroom, Courtroom I. Okay? Thank you.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

9 at 6.31 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,

10 the 7th day of June, 2002, at 2.15 p.m.

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